Uh,
good morning.
This is Matthew Gernstead and Julie Kaplan interviewing Doctor Lewen Hartwell
on December 6,
2018 at
11:28 a.m. in Vice Dean Nicola Footte's office.
This interview is part of the Barrett World History Project.
Our goal is to preserve a record of
Barrett's history in honor of our 30th anniversary.
Uh,
Doctor Hartwell,
thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us and share your experience.
Uh,
so we'll begin with a bit of personal history.
Uh,
can you tell us what specific,
uh,
personal,
academic,
or professional experiences
shaped your decision to pursue a career in biological sciences?
OK,
well,
it was actually a fairly dramatic moment.
So,
um,
I,
uh,
was an undergraduate at uh C Caltech.
And I was a physics major.
And I took an elective course in biology.
And this was about
5 years after the structure of DNA had been discovered.
And this class was,
I,
I don't know how he
did this the whole semester,
but the instructor would stand down there in front of the class,
wave his arms and jump around
about how excited he was about DNA and what we were going to learn from it,
and,
uh,
I got excited too and just decided that,
um.
Uh,
this biology was really going to,
um,
change dramatically,
and I wanted to be part of it.
And would you say that professor at Caltech was one of your,
you know,
most influential mentors,
uh,
during your years as an undergraduate student,
or,
uh,
not most influential,
but was my advisor and did,
um,
help along the way.
So when you look back either at Caltech or any of the,
you know,
schools you attended when you were in our position,
uh,
who stands out as being one of your most influential mentors,
would you say?
Um,
well,
several,
Caltech was a special place in that
there were very few undergraduates compared to faculty,
so you could do research with any faculty member you wanted to any time.
And uh so I did research every semester,
every quarter I was there,
um,
and so there was a lot of influence,
but
um
probably the most
important one was a
fellow named Bob Edgar,
who was in the Max Delbrook Page Group
and um
Uh,
I did a research project with Bob and
he was,
um.
Using genetics to,
um,
elucidate the
Assembly pathway for a virus.
And um
I thought that was really spectacular and I sort of
followed his
um example
through the rest of my career.
Wonderful.
And then when you were in school,
were there any programs that remind you specifically of Barrett today
that might have shaped your decision to come here to Barrett?
Um,
I'd say Caltech was a lot like Barrett.
Um,
it's a small university,
um,
it's smaller than than
Barrett.
Um,
but,
um,
highly selected group of students that,
um.
We
Um
encouraged to
Think for themselves to be original,
were respected,
um.
As contributors,
so you,
you sort of entered an environment where
you were
Assumed to be
a
contributor.
Uh,
I remember once when,
um,
And Max Delbrook's group,
he would have.
Um,
a weekly meeting in which
people would talk about the research and
Um,
it's a small room because he wanted it small and so he would
stand at the door and say who could come in and who couldn't.
And I've,
I've,
I've seen him turn faculty away and allow students like me in.
So that was the environment
and is that
how you would um
define your philosophy today as an instructor here Barrett?
Absolutely,
as I think the students are much more interesting than faculty.
So I,
I wonder,
Doctor Hartwell,
can you tell us more about your decision to
come here to Arizona State University and then,
you know,
subsequent to that to bear it,
um,
you know,
after you,
you know,
shared the Nobel Prize in 2001,
I mean,
presumably you could have gone anywhere.
You know,
a scientist of your stature,
so why specifically here at ASU?
Well,
there's the,
uh,
there's the fun anecdote and there's the,
um,
Uh,
sort of logical motivation,
so let's start with the logical motivation
is when I,
um,
was
Coming to the end of my
time as president of the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center,
um,
I had already given up my research laboratory,
uh,
then
and
was thinking about what I wanted to do next.
And I decided that what was the most important thing was education.
And that,
um,
Uh,
the world was changing dramatically,
uh,
in many ways,
and that,
uh,
creating a sustainable planet was the first order of business.
And so
I.
Began
Creating a
sustainability science course for teachers,
um,
while I was still
at the Fred Hutch and I brought it here.
To,
and
we continued working on it for years here at uh Arizona State University.
Um,
the,
the fun anecdote is that a
good friend of mine,
Oren Edson,
Um,
invited my wife and I to go on a trip to the
Galapagos with him and his wife and a few other couples,
and one of the couples was Michael Crowe and um
Uh,
Sybil,
and so we got to know them and Michael invited me here and so the two.
Things sort of came together.
Wonderful.
And then we're gonna pivot into uh what you're doing at Barrett today.
So looking back,
uh,
over the years you've been here at Barrett,
can you pinpoint,
you know,
one moment that you're proudest of,
or maybe one experience with a student that you're proudest of?
Well,
I think the
The thing I remember,
um.
The most in terms of
Feeling,
um,
Uh,
happy about what I'm doing is,
uh,
when students send me a card at the end of
the semester saying what a great time they had.
Wonderful.
And then you spoke earlier about,
you know,
holding on to that capacity to be taught by students,
you know,
while you're teaching them.
So what would you say
the most significant lesson
that you've been taught by a student would be?
Um,
Well,
let me just say something about that attitude is that,
um,
what,
what I think is most important in this era.
Is that
Our students.
Come out as learners.
Rather than knowers,
right?
Everything is going to change.
Right.
And,
We used to train students to be knowers,
right?
You have
mastered a certain body of knowledge and then you went out and practiced it,
and that's no longer adequate.
What students need to do now is to go out prepared to learn as everything changes
underneath their feet.
Um,
so,
um,
I,
I guess what
I have learned
and,
and so when I teach,
um,
I,
I teach with the attitude that I'm learning as well as them,
uh.
Uh,
we explore
things,
people ask questions that they'd like to answer and then explore them.
And
uh I often do a project my own,
of my own at the same time with them.
Um,
and,
uh,
so I guess it's the.
Um,
The different
approaches,
That
students
will bring to.
The study
and their the questions they're asking and their interests.
Um,
And
I,
I try.
To
give students completely free reign to choose
whatever they're interested in to pursue.
Um.
And sometimes,
uh,
they pick.
Things that seem to me very difficult
to do.
And
but I don't discourage them because
what you know,
let's see what they do with it
and I,
and I think the,
the,
the
biggest surprise is how often students succeed to do far
more than I would have expected them to do.
I had 2 great examples this semester and 1 last semester.
Um,
where that happened.
Um,
so,
in,
in both cases,
I think,
in,
in all three cases they,
they came back and said,
That it was really hard
and
that
they
learned so much about themselves by doing it and succeeding.
And then two of the courses you've taught here at
Barrett are um 21st century skills and 21st century ideas,
uh,
where you have that model of teaching that you've just,
you know,
spoken about.
Um,
so do you think,
um,
well,
first of all,
can you tell us a little bit more about how that works in practice
and what was maybe the genesis of that,
um,
you know,
those two courses,
and then,
um.
Do you see more of your colleagues here at Barrett and
at ASU adopting a model like that for their own courses,
and do you think more of them should?
Well,
so the,
the,
the model that I use for a course is
there's a sort of overarching theme that we're exploring that semester
and
um I encourage students to
find some question within that umbrella
that interests them that they wanna pursue.
Um,
and we often take 2 or 3 weeks for them to come up with their question.
Um,
And then,
um,
It depends on what we're investigating,
but I,
I think the most,
um,
the thing I've done the most frequent is
Um,
To
Uh,
examine
the issue of how we know what we know
and
what are the limits of what we know and
what can't we know because of those limits.
Um,
and I often do this in the area of global health
because,
um,
health is
The area where.
We examine humans the most rigorously.
And come up against the
barriers to knowledge based upon the fact that everybody's different and
that you can experiment on humans and various things like that.
Um,
But another topic that you mentioned
is um,
Sort of um
Uh,
how,
how students succeed
and
that of course is the fundamental interest,
um.
You know,
how can we help students succeed.
And
Um,
So I've learned a lot from the Barrett students in considering that topic.
Um
And
uh that has
resulted in a project that I'm doing
now with one of your students,
one of the Barrett students,
um.
To
um.
Identify students who did poorly their first semester at ASU.
And then
by the end of their 4th semester,
were doing well,
so raised their grades by at least 1 full GPA.
And um.
The Provost's office has identified
about 1% of the freshman class
do that,
it's very small,
I'm surprised it's only 1%.
But we are interviewing,
as you hear,
we're interviewing those students
to see what their story is,
how did,
what happened to them
that.
Allowed them to,
to succeed.
Excellent.
That's actually a great way to transition to my final question for this section.
Um,
so aside from the,
uh,
the Werner mindset we were talking about earlier,
uh,
what else do you think characterizes a successful Barrett student,
um,
here on campus?
Um,
I'll let the students answer that,
OK,
in,
in one of these sections,
I asked the students.
To write
a letter.
To
a younger sibling
who was about to enter ASU.
And advise them on
how they could be successful at ASU.
And
out of 10 letters,
9 were almost identical to one another.
And they were all about.
Get involved in as many things as you can as fast as you can.
I was surprised at that.
But it was almost as if they were all saying,
ultimately that's
what I found to be the most rewarding and useful thing,
and I wish I had done it sooner.
Sure.
And then,
um,
another question,
and we'll get into a bit more of the work you're doing here on campus.
Um,
so what do you think Baird has done,
uh,
to be on the cutting edge of research,
particularly on the issue of sustainability,
and how have you as an instructor encouraged
your students to involve themselves in those efforts?
How have you facilitated that?
Well,
our efforts in sustainability,
um,
involve,
uh,
the teachers college rather than Bart,
um,
because,
um.
The goal is to prepare teachers who are going into the classroom.
To understand
the issues around sustainability and
uh inform their students and
To be able to incorporate sustainability themes
into a variety of things they have to teach anyway.
And so we,
we have a course that,
um,
several 100 teachers
uh in preparation at ASU go through every semester.
And then,
um,
regarding the future of Barrett,
um,
we're doing these interviews now because
obviously we're approaching our 30th anniversary.
Uh,
where do you see Barrett,
you know,
perhaps 10 years or 20 years or maybe even the next 30 years?
Uh,
what do you think Barrett should look like
when we're at that point in our history?
Um.
I think that's a,
a,
a great question.
I hadn't thought about it before,
but something immediately jumps to mind.
Which is that
um Barrett students have
A little more freedom.
In
there.
Curriculum.
Um,
and most of the other students are.
Pretty lockstep into the requirements of a major.
And
I think it's,
it's poor training,
um.
For their future because their students are gonna
need to be much more versatile than that.
Um,
and,
and I think Barrett students have that opportunity.
And
I,
I guess what
One.
Would be really.
Uh
Important is if
The Barrett College and the Barrett students
could help transform the whole university
to more of.
Um,
Uh,
an education for the future.
And do you see some of that happening now,
or is it very much,
you know,
something that's in the early stages and we have to keep building on it?
I don't see it happening so much.
You asked about what other faculty you're doing and um.
I,
I think that the majority of the faculty are very
focused on preparing students in their major to
go out and be practitioners in their major.
Um,
And the students I,
I,
I experienced from Barrett seem to be much more sort of
open to what
they're gonna do and trying a variety of different things.
Um,
So,
um,
But,
but the Barrett students do,
almost all of them is.
Have some kind of activity,
service activity beyond their courses.
Even if they're working,
they're still doing volunteer work at various places,
almost every one of them.
And um.
So
That effort I think could be really put into
um.
Helping to transform the university.
As well as the community,
right.
And that's actually um an excellent way to lead into my next question.
Um,
You talk about how the university should be working,
you know,
in tandem with the community,
especially the city of Tempe,
which is very much,
you know,
trying to lead here in Arizona on sustainability issues.
Um,
what does that current relationship look like in your mind and have you,
you know,
worked,
you know,
either independently or with your students to,
you know,
strengthen those ties between the university
and then what the city of Tempe is doing on those issues?
No,
I don't have any personal experience there.
I,
I'm,
I have appointments in,
in the school of Sustainability and the School of Education,
and,
uh,
certainly a lot of the students in the School of Sustainability,
um,
are involved in.
Community planning
projects,
uh,
they have a big project with the city of Glendale,
but I,
I don't have anything personally to do with that.
Um,
what I'm more interested in myself
are
the,
um,
K through 12 education in our community,
and I have
taught
myself in.
Uh,
3 middle school science
classes last
year.
And
this next semester,
what I'm doing is having
about 20
Barrett students.
Um
Working on creating.
Activities
around
human sensory perception,
um,
as an
A,
a,
a way of um.
Having an authentic science experience,
I can tell you more about that,
but,
uh,
but basically,
um,
a lot of them are already interested in going out into the
middle school classrooms and
teaching as soon as possible
and in fact one of them who came in the other day to sign up for this class.
Um,
Has for 2 years
been involved with a group of about 20 other students
who are going out doing
um afterschool science club uh in about 5 different schools in the community.
Um,
so that's the area I think,
uh,
we,
we might expand a,
a pretty interesting program.
And then,
uh,
a more philosophical question,
um,
so I,
I assume you're aware of the ASU charter
and,
uh,
what that lays out.
I couldn't repeat it.
Well,
one of the,
one of the points on the charter
is that the school
and all of its,
you know,
constituent campuses will assume fundamental responsibility
for the economic,
social,
cultural,
and overall health of the communities it serves,
and this is building upon the,
the previous question I asked.
Um,
what can Barrett,
uh,
do over the next,
you know,
10 to 20 years in its future
to better contribute to that mission?
Of making sure that you know the work students do have that fundamental,
you know,
social impact.
That's not just circulating here in the university system.
Yeah,
well,
um.
I,
I guess,
uh.
You know,
a number of colleges
encourage their students to get involved in the community using.
Um,
those opportunities as learning opportunities for their own
careers,
so
You know,
Journalism,
There's the Cronkite school,
News program
There's as we said,
the sustainability of students who are
doing plans around,
there's the law students who are doing various things.
There's
many groups involved in immigration and those kinds of things,
so,
um.
Um
You know,
I,
I think there is a,
a,
a significant community outreach and
Um,
I think
President Crowe has influenced
the nature of.
Education in that way.
More,
uh
As
learning through service.
Um,
sort of model.
Um,
I,
I think he's not yet influenced
the curriculum in terms of
greater interdisciplinary.
Study
Um,
but my own interest would be in,
in,
in education,
and,
and I think,
you know,
really at all levels,
not just K through 12,
but particularly,
uh,
older adult,
uh,
who
You know,
love to learn and,
and are looking for
interesting things to do
with their time.
This is a,
you know,
great retirement community.
Many of those people have time and resources to go out and
be useful then to others.
Homeless students or things,
um,
But um
I think uh.
President Crowe's call to be a service to the community is
um.
And so
Tremendous vision and.
Um
Something that
we're capable of having a big impact on because we're so large.
Almost 100,000 students here.
And then reflecting,
um,
on everything you've accomplished,
specifically here at Barrett,
when students look back and consider,
um,
you know,
all of the contributions you made,
what do you want them to take away?
What do you want your
final legacy to be here at Barrett in Arizona State University?
And it's fun to learn.
Would you,
uh,
elaborate on that,
that,
that it's fun to learn and you,
you,
you help your students see that or,
well,
I hope so.
I mean,
I,
I think,
um.
Personally I find
that
If I'm too focused on.
The end goal or trying to accomplish something.
It can be very frustrating because sometimes you're not making progress,
and sometimes you are,
you know,
but
if you're focused on what you're learning,
It's always satisfying because you're always learning.
And we,
we learn,
you know,
it's right to say we learn by our failures,
but it is a fact,
and
if,
if you look upon
The things that didn't work
as part of learning,
then it's still all success.
You know,
that's actually a fascinating point you made,
and I wanna
maybe jump back,
um,
and ask about that.
So you said you learned by your failures.
Um,
so if you look back at your teaching career or your
prestigious career and,
uh,
research in biological sciences,
uh,
what would you say was your most profound moment of failure and
how did that teach you to maybe change your approach or,
you know,
become a better learner in the process?
Well,
I'd say about every 10 years I
Do something different.
And my experience
with
every one of those things.
Is that
For the first
Several years.
I have this experience I call
lost in the woods.
Where
I'm wandering around trying to figure out
how to
Learn or do whatever it is I'm trying to accomplish.
And that it takes several years of
frustration
and
Search,
um,
before I find a path.
And that's why we call our center Pathfinder Center,
because,
um,
I think that is the goal is to
To be in search of
and eventually find the path you're looking for.
Right,
and so for me that's,
you know,
typically,
You know,
5 years of,
of exploring and searching and
then hopefully 5 years of
useful productivity.
What advice would you give to people who haven't found their path yet?
Um,
Two things is,
is,
is be patient.
Even when the rest of the world isn't,
when the rest of the world is asking you to be productive and you're not ready yet,
be patient with yourself.
And secondly,
trust yourself.
Because
you can't be
creative.
By trying to do what other people think you should be doing.
It it has to come organically from yourself,
and it's a painful process and requires a lot of patience,
and
so those are the two things,
be patient.
Julie,
do you have any additional questions you'd like to ask?
Sure,
I,
I have a few.
So Doctor Hartwell,
you talked to us about why you came to Baird and how you ended up here,
but what has kept you here?
Um,
well,
I'm still searching,
so I'm about 10 years now into this education thing.
We had an initial success because
Um,
it was really
Quite amusing in hindsight is
I,
I came here with the intention of
teaching,
um,
Future teachers about sustainability.
And
um.
From what I know now,
that was
Um
Pie in the sky,
I mean that would not have worked
if I hadn't arrived at a particular moment in time
when
the.
Uh,
Mary Lou Fulton Teachers College had received
a critical review because they didn't have enough content in their program.
It was all pedagogy.
And so they were organizing a lot of
faculty
to create courses,
content courses for their students.
And I came at just the right moment,
and we were the only ones who created a content course.
And so it became required
for all of their students.
Um,
but the,
the real
Big umbrella question that I'm
trying to understand is,
is how
Should we train students for the future?
And,
and I feel like I'm
beginning to get my arms around that.
And,
um,
and.
Pretty.
Enthusiastic and engaged now about having.
Maybe a more productive few years
doing that.
So bouncing that question back to you,
how do you think that we should be training students for the future?
Um,
well,
I think it's to be learners.
It's that simple.
Um,
but.
There's a lot involved there.
Right.
And
you were talking earlier about how you give your students a lot of freedom
regarding what they want to study and research.
Do you think that all teachers should give their students that much freedom?
Um,
I don't know.
That's,
that's a,
a,
a subtle question because
There certainly are skills that students need.
Um,
you,
you need to know how to
write,
how to express yourself,
how to
Um,
find information you need,
um,
Um
And
You know,
if you're an engineer.
You need a lot of
math and.
Physics,
you know,
um,
so
there's this question of,
you know,
how much emphasis on skills training,
which might be more directed,
and how much emphasis on
sort of
Um,
exploring your interests.
Um,
and the best of all is to try to combine those two.
Where
You learn the skills as you need them.
You know,
rather than,
you know,
it's rather than taking a course in.
And calculus.
You know
Would it make sense to
Have an education where
you learn calculus when you needed it.
I don't know,
I mean,
I think those those are
big questions for
the future of education.
But certainly a good proportion of a student's experience
should be.
Um,
exploring their own interests,
where they have
A lot more motivation.
To
learn and
go beyond what they're capable of.
Than they do when they're just working for a grade.
I have one more question.
So if there is a prospective ASU and Barrett student listening to this,
why should they choose to come here?
Um,
Well,
I,
I think Barrett creates a great environment for students to develop.
Um,
there's a very interesting time in,
in
Human development,
um,
these years between high school and,
you know,
graduating from university is 4 years,
and
If you don't.
If you're not in a university environment,
then.
You're out working somewhere,
um,
You,
you,
you come out with just a different mindset.
To spend those 4 years in an environment where
learning is
The
Preeminent activity.
And thinking about
the future and,
and how to improve the world and things are,
are.
The things people talk about.
Um
Just form formulates you as an adult,
I think in a completely different way.
Um.
So,
you know,
that's why I go to university,
but.
But I,
I think you want to go to a university where.
The environment encourages you to be everything you can be.
And
Um,
and I think Barrett does a pretty good job of that.
Thank you.
Well,
Doctor Hartwell,
I think that's an excellent,
uh,
sentiment to conclude on here.
Uh,
so on behalf of myself,
um,
you know,
Dean Foot and Julie,
I'd like to thank you for your participation today and
for sharing your brilliant insights on all these issues.
If you have any more thoughts to share later,
please feel free to reach out.
And if you have any questions about this
interview or the 30th anniversary Oral History Project,
uh,
please contact Vice Dean Nicola Foote,
and thank you once again,
sir.
We appreciate it.
Thank you.