WEBVTT 00:00:01.298 --> 00:00:08.226 OK, we are rolling. OK. Today is April 17, 2013. I'm conducting an 00:00:08.259 --> 00:00:12.995 interview for the Arizona State Retirees Association video history project. 00:00:13.028 --> 00:00:18.276 We're located today in the ASU Community Services building. My name is 00:00:18.309 --> 00:00:23.556 Mary Rothschild. I'm a professor emerita from ASU. I was director of 00:00:23.589 --> 00:00:27.916 women's studies, chair of the department. Uh, and I came here as an 00:00:27.949 --> 00:00:32.676 assistant professor. The technical staff support today include John 00:00:32.709 --> 00:00:38.996 McIntosh, operating the camera, Roger Carter, Audio, and Dave Schotsley, 00:00:39.029 --> 00:00:41.667 who is the director. 00:00:41.700 --> 00:00:46.815 OK. Please introduce yourself and stating your name and your position at 00:00:46.848 --> 00:00:51.565 ASU. Uh, my name is Anne Schneider, and I was dean of the College of 00:00:51.598 --> 00:00:56.057 Public Programs at ASU and after that I was a professor in the School of 00:00:56.090 --> 00:01:01.597 Justice studies and then in the uh Department of Political Science. 00:01:01.630 --> 00:01:05.436 To begin with, why don't you let our viewers know a little bit about your 00:01:05.469 --> 00:01:08.516 early life? What propelled you? Where did you grow up? Where were you born 00:01:08.549 --> 00:01:12.947 ? What was your early life like? What propelled you into the academy? The 00:01:12.980 --> 00:01:18.227 um. I grew up in Ellis County, Oklahoma, which is up in the northwestern 00:01:18.260 --> 00:01:22.936 corner of the state near a town called Fargo that I claim is my hometown. 00:01:22.969 --> 00:01:27.197 And I went to school there. Uh, we lived on a fairly large wheat and 00:01:27.230 --> 00:01:31.796 cattle farm. My folks were Bert and Margaret Larson. I have a brother Tim 00:01:31.829 --> 00:01:37.897 a sister Linda who lived in Oklahoma City. Um, I went to Oklahoma State 00:01:37.930 --> 00:01:42.846 University where I got my undergraduate degree, and from that I taught 00:01:42.879 --> 00:01:46.805 school, traveled for a while, got married, and then went, my ex-husband 00:01:46.838 --> 00:01:51.467 and I went to Indiana University to get our PhDs in political science. And 00:01:51.500 --> 00:01:56.697 then and then after that, uh, my first job was at Yale University, so Pete 00:01:56.730 --> 00:02:02.605 and I packed up our two kids, both still in diapers and went to went to 00:02:02.638 --> 00:02:09.245 Yale, uh, that that would have been, uh, 1972. So that's when you got your 00:02:09.278 --> 00:02:15.677 PhD uh at Yale. It was a rather frantic time. I had not finished my 00:02:15.710 --> 00:02:20.237 dissertation, neither had Pete. Both kids were still in diapers, as I just 00:02:20.270 --> 00:02:25.196 said, and I'm teaching, uh, two classes this semester, all 4 new classes 00:02:25.229 --> 00:02:30.745 that I had made up myself and that I had never taken, much less taught. 00:02:30.778 --> 00:02:37.827 And it was a a really hectic year and the Watergate hearings were on, so 00:02:37.860 --> 00:02:42.245 of course, uh, meat and drink to a political scientist. Yes, abs 00:02:42.278 --> 00:02:47.126 absolutely there wasn't much sleep in between the kids, uh, the job and 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:51.366 watching the Watergate hearings anyway, that's what that's after Yale, uh 00:02:51.399 --> 00:02:55.805 , Pete got an offer at University of Oregon, so we went across country 00:02:55.838 --> 00:03:01.416 with the kids. uh, Jeffrey is not yet 2 years old. And Chris is a little 00:03:01.449 --> 00:03:06.555 over 3. And there, uh, he had a job at the University of Oregon. I started 00:03:06.588 --> 00:03:11.366 the Institute for Policy Analysis, which was a nonprofit research 00:03:11.399 --> 00:03:16.767 institute that I ran for about 10 years under the auspices of Oregon 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.686 University of Oregon. No, it wasn't at the university. We were a, a 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:25.646 private nonprofit research institute. We lived solely on grants and no one 00:03:25.679 --> 00:03:31.755 hardly anyone except me, uh, was over 30 and no one had any money, so. It 00:03:31.788 --> 00:03:38.856 was uh Truly a nonprofit. Nonprofit institute and after doing that for a 00:03:38.889 --> 00:03:43.017 while I got an offer from Oklahoma State University, my alma mater to go 00:03:43.050 --> 00:03:47.346 back there as a political science professor, which I did. And when was 00:03:47.379 --> 00:03:53.767 that? That was in 1982. And I was, uh, became director of research for 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:58.725 arts and sciences and then chair of political science and then I so that 00:03:58.758 --> 00:04:03.316 was those were your two administrative positions before you came to ASU 00:04:03.349 --> 00:04:10.646 actually 3 being being the founder and run and manager of a nonprofit 00:04:10.679 --> 00:04:13.805 research institute sort of counted and then I had been chair of the 00:04:13.838 --> 00:04:16.805 department and director of research for arts and sciences. That's right. 00:04:16.838 --> 00:04:22.937 And then I got the job here at ASU as as dean of public programs. Um, 1989. 00:04:22.970 --> 00:04:30.305 You came in 1989 and what inspired you to come? 00:04:30.338 --> 00:04:34.717 Well it's perfectly all right to save money. It was, uh, I was just really 00:04:34.750 --> 00:04:39.637 broke and there wasn't much of any possibility of, of much of a raise at 00:04:39.670 --> 00:04:42.437 Oklahoma State. They've given me a bit of a raise, but I was still just 00:04:42.470 --> 00:04:48.116 really pretty, pretty broke and I got uh a friend of mine who was provost 00:04:48.149 --> 00:04:53.776 at Florida International leaned on me to go there one year to interview 00:04:53.809 --> 00:04:59.726 for a job at a college very much like public programs. Which I did And I 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:05.836 didn't like Miami. I didn't like the I didn't like the college I didn't 00:05:05.869 --> 00:05:10.197 like the university I didn't like Miami and I decided I would never again 00:05:10.230 --> 00:05:16.127 apply for a job in a place I did not want to go, but it got me thinking 00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:21.346 about there were better jobs out there, um, and if you wanna know one day 00:05:21.379 --> 00:05:25.317 I was quite irritated at the associate dean I was chair of political 00:05:25.350 --> 00:05:31.596 science and I read the Chronicle and I clipped out the the one ads. And a 00:05:31.629 --> 00:05:36.546 few weeks later, uh, people on the search committee here actually called 00:05:36.579 --> 00:05:41.825 me and and I said yes I've heard of that job in fact I have clipped it 00:05:41.858 --> 00:05:47.075 right here in my drawer so that's how I came to apply for this job. So 00:05:47.108 --> 00:05:53.067 what was ASU like when you first arrived? Well, the, uh, what was ASU like 00:05:53.100 --> 00:05:57.426 was an interesting kind of question because it had a, I thought a really 00:05:57.459 --> 00:06:03.317 fine faculty. And a serious inferiority complex. And you would know 00:06:03.350 --> 00:06:08.666 because you were here the uh the faculty consisted of newer hires who were 00:06:08.699 --> 00:06:12.877 very research oriented from really good universities and then the people 00:06:12.910 --> 00:06:17.437 from the days of teachers college that were really outstanding teachers 00:06:17.470 --> 00:06:20.836 but they hadn't been hired to do research so there was that kind of 00:06:20.869 --> 00:06:24.726 tension. But the College of Public programs in a way was even more 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:29.926 interesting because it consisted of 5 departments and 1 center, none of 00:06:29.959 --> 00:06:35.036 which wanted to be in that college. It had been formed by a previous 00:06:35.069 --> 00:06:38.717 president. There were several programs in liberal arts that did not want 00:06:38.750 --> 00:06:42.217 to be in liberal arts. They want to be free standing colleges like the 00:06:42.250 --> 00:06:46.236 Cronkite School, Public Affairs communication. They wanted to be colleges 00:06:46.269 --> 00:06:49.395 of their own, and there were a couple of programs that reported to the 00:06:49.428 --> 00:06:55.575 provost. Who didn't want academic programs reporting to him right? so he 00:06:55.608 --> 00:06:58.895 had this brilliant idea of putting these programs that ranged from 00:06:58.928 --> 00:07:02.536 journalism to public affairs, communication, justice studies, wreck 00:07:02.569 --> 00:07:08.856 management into one college, and he would solve all of those problems by 00:07:08.889 --> 00:07:13.217 putting all of these discontented programs into one college. So that's 00:07:13.250 --> 00:07:19.176 what I came to a college with 5 departments and 1 center. They didn't 00:07:19.209 --> 00:07:24.416 dislike one another they were just kind of discontented and distant they 00:07:24.449 --> 00:07:29.015 didn't really know each other they didn't think they had anything in 00:07:29.048 --> 00:07:35.796 common. So how did you work on that? Well, that was the first big 00:07:35.829 --> 00:07:40.796 challenge was uh realizing that they didn't see anything in common even 00:07:40.829 --> 00:07:44.757 though I did and the president who put them together saw the possibilities 00:07:44.790 --> 00:07:50.036 there. These are professionally oriented social science programs all of 00:07:50.069 --> 00:07:53.116 them are newer disciplines they've all broken off from more traditional 00:07:53.149 --> 00:07:59.567 disciplines um they are more oriented toward the community. And they, they 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:05.245 did have those things in common and that was the, the idea of the college 00:08:05.278 --> 00:08:11.717 that it seemed to me we could be both relevant to the community and also 00:08:11.750 --> 00:08:14.726 relevant to the theory and intellectual development of our disciplines 00:08:14.759 --> 00:08:19.645 that we could actually do both of those. What was it like to come into 00:08:19.678 --> 00:08:25.606 that college, many people in whom uh in which I knew quite well, um, as 00:08:25.639 --> 00:08:32.436 the first woman dean, um. Well, I had been the first this that or the 00:08:32.469 --> 00:08:37.515 other woman a lot of times before, so in some ways that was not unusual. I 00:08:37.548 --> 00:08:42.875 was the first woman in a tenured position at Yale untenured but on tenure 00:08:42.908 --> 00:08:49.356 track, the first one at Oklahoma State, the, um, so at the time I was the 00:08:49.389 --> 00:08:57.389 first, uh, woman dean of a non-traditional college at ASU also, so I, I 00:08:57.548 --> 00:09:03.106 didn't think much about that. Really it was um I was just sort of used to 00:09:03.139 --> 00:09:07.057 being a woman in in did you think there were any issues involved with it 00:09:07.090 --> 00:09:10.086 with some of the people you worked with in the in the college? Oh yes, 00:09:10.119 --> 00:09:15.385 there were, there were a few, few people, uh, I will name their gender who 00:09:15.418 --> 00:09:19.586 disliked me from the day I stepped on campus and it took me a while to 00:09:19.619 --> 00:09:25.717 realize it it didn't have much of anything to do with me, um. And I just, 00:09:25.750 --> 00:09:29.586 just worked on it, you know, to try to try to do a really really good job 00:09:29.619 --> 00:09:34.336 . I thought if I could do a really good job that those guys would 00:09:34.369 --> 00:09:38.996 eventually come around and as a matter of fact, almost all of them did 00:09:39.029 --> 00:09:46.566 eventually. Um, Who was uh provost of and president well when I came, ASU 00:09:46.599 --> 00:09:52.326 was really in transition. Elmer Gooding was the acting provost, a really 00:09:52.359 --> 00:09:57.907 good guy, very supportive of me. He was really, really helpful. Elmer like 00:09:57.940 --> 00:10:02.885 liked to make a deal. You know, if I made a couple of deals, yeah, if, if 00:10:02.918 --> 00:10:06.765 I needed something, he was the one, well, let's say you put up a little 00:10:06.798 --> 00:10:09.927 money for it, I'll put up a little money for it, that kind of thing. Dick 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:15.326 Peck was the acting president, a very, uh, uh, interesting, bright, 00:10:15.359 --> 00:10:22.255 intelligent, funny person. Um, and within 6 months we had hired Laddie 00:10:22.288 --> 00:10:27.986 Core and by the fall, uh, we had hired Milt Glick so I served those two 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:33.686 people were absolutely, uh, wonderful, uh, leaders at ASU and I served 15 00:10:33.719 --> 00:10:38.145 wonderful years with them and a great bunch of deans, most of whom were 00:10:38.178 --> 00:10:43.946 men and most of whom were very supportive of women, uh, and, and women. 00:10:43.979 --> 00:10:48.236 Women Gary Gary was John Manet with most all of them were Larry Pinley 00:10:48.269 --> 00:10:54.025 was was a time we were diversifying and I think College of Public programs 00:10:54.058 --> 00:10:59.547 was a really good place to do that because women and minority students who 00:10:59.580 --> 00:11:03.505 are really good students often gravitated toward the less traditional 00:11:03.538 --> 00:11:09.346 careers in terms of graduate school they so so we had the opportunity to 00:11:09.379 --> 00:11:15.856 hire a lot of really, really talented young faculty. What did you, um, I 00:11:15.889 --> 00:11:21.816 remember that justice studies sort of switched from a kind of criminology 00:11:21.849 --> 00:11:29.145 basis to justice studies a little before you came I think but was there 00:11:29.178 --> 00:11:32.616 was that ever an issue? 00:11:32.649 --> 00:11:36.696 I thought that because it was the biggest, one of the biggest departments 00:11:36.729 --> 00:11:40.096 well we had a lot of big departments. Justice studies was huge 00:11:40.129 --> 00:11:43.467 communication was huge. The Cronkite School was huge. These were all 00:11:43.500 --> 00:11:49.936 really and public affairs had a huge graduate program. The I thought, uh, 00:11:49.969 --> 00:11:55.976 that the idea of a of a department focused on social justice was wonderful. 00:11:56.009 --> 00:12:00.557 There could be nothing dear to my heart than. A college like that on the 00:12:00.590 --> 00:12:07.946 other hand I found it disconcerting that they uh were were disrespectful 00:12:07.979 --> 00:12:12.956 of of the criminal justice side of justice. I didn't quite being a 00:12:12.989 --> 00:12:18.736 political scientist, not a sociologist I didn't really understand that um. 00:12:18.769 --> 00:12:23.385 Because criminal justice had not been a marginalized field in terms of 00:12:23.418 --> 00:12:28.326 political science, it had been in terms of sociology so some of this was 00:12:28.359 --> 00:12:36.359 was dragging in um sort of academic status academic prestige and. But like 00:12:37.119 --> 00:12:41.686 I said, I thought the idea of a school of justice studies was wonderful 00:12:41.719 --> 00:12:47.407 and they kind of had to fight off the image of just being criminal justice 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:52.525 and I understand that academically in terms of the national uh thing 00:12:52.558 --> 00:12:59.746 national images they they had to distance themselves from being just 00:12:59.779 --> 00:13:05.537 criminal justice. Uh, did you have a grand idea for public programs when 00:13:05.570 --> 00:13:10.976 you came, or how did your administration evolve? I did kind of have a 00:13:11.009 --> 00:13:16.037 grand idea. I thought this was such a. Uh, an exciting idea, new programs 00:13:16.070 --> 00:13:24.070 , newer disciplines that had, uh, 1 ft in three worlds, 1 ft in the 00:13:24.158 --> 00:13:30.316 academic intellectual theory side, 1 ft in the professions and the 00:13:30.349 --> 00:13:36.885 practice practices that came out of the social sciences and 1 ft in honest 00:13:36.918 --> 00:13:43.015 to goodness public service. And I really had this idea that the 00:13:43.048 --> 00:13:48.927 professions and practice could inform theory. And that theory could and 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.967 should inform professions and practice and that we had the opportunity in 00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:58.686 the college to do both of these things whereas and we could respect both 00:13:58.719 --> 00:14:02.936 if we could just find the will to do that we could respect both and that 00:14:02.969 --> 00:14:09.145 that we could actually be more innovative. And and more creative and 00:14:09.178 --> 00:14:14.025 different and unique and we could really make our way by having that as 00:14:14.058 --> 00:14:18.866 our our idea you're in liberal arts so you know the kind of pecking order 00:14:18.899 --> 00:14:22.226 in liberal arts we were always at the bottom of the pecking order if we 00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:27.625 were in liberal arts, um, and I just didn't think we wanted any of those 00:14:27.658 --> 00:14:32.606 kind of pecking orders in our college. And I really went out of my way not 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:38.125 to center any particular discipline or marginalize any particular 00:14:38.158 --> 00:14:43.486 discipline but to try to get these groups to in fact respect one another 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:46.967 and see what they could could collectively bring together and that we 00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:52.547 really could do all of these things people used to say to me well. You 00:14:52.580 --> 00:14:57.807 can't be all things to all people. And I would say and Laddie Core used to 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:03.057 say this too, we have to be a lot of things to a lot of people. Yeah we 00:15:03.090 --> 00:15:08.336 have to do that and we can do that so I did have an idea and it was this 00:15:08.369 --> 00:15:12.775 merger of practice and profession with uh intellectual and theory 00:15:12.808 --> 00:15:16.736 development that we could do that. So did you find your faculty receptive 00:15:16.769 --> 00:15:20.717 to that vision? Uh, yes, very much I think it helped I think it helped 00:15:20.750 --> 00:15:26.135 them a lot. It also recognized both teaching and research as and public 00:15:26.168 --> 00:15:33.736 service as being um. Important contributing and respected things to be 00:15:33.769 --> 00:15:38.395 done. We had older, uh, not necessarily older but faculty who had been 00:15:38.428 --> 00:15:43.515 here a longer time who were hired without PhDs. They were hired to be 00:15:43.548 --> 00:15:48.755 really great teachers and they were so I tried to help them find a niche 00:15:48.788 --> 00:15:52.275 where they could fit into this new idea of the college. Well, that was 00:15:52.308 --> 00:15:58.005 part of my, uh, gonna be my next question given that. The university at 00:15:58.038 --> 00:16:04.846 that time began to um. Be more and more research oriented um did that have 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:10.167 any effect on your deaning? Yes, yes, it, it really did, uh, on the one 00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:16.366 hand we had to really support and mentor junior faculty because they could 00:16:16.399 --> 00:16:22.336 be coming up in their own department with people who were not. Uh, 00:16:22.369 --> 00:16:26.736 respectful of research, OK, at the same time with faculty who had been 00:16:26.769 --> 00:16:30.736 there a longer time, some of them would like to do research. It just had 00:16:30.769 --> 00:16:34.645 never been part of their job description literally. And so one of the 00:16:34.678 --> 00:16:37.765 things we did, we started, you probably remember these the Dean's 00:16:37.798 --> 00:16:42.755 incentive grants program and we called them digs. They were small grants, 00:16:42.788 --> 00:16:48.645 20 to $3000 a piece, and we managed to cobble together enough money every 00:16:48.678 --> 00:16:54.456 year that almost everyone who applied got one. We would figure out some 00:16:54.489 --> 00:17:01.015 way to do that studies grants, yeah, all right and um so senior faculty 00:17:01.048 --> 00:17:05.176 who were trying to jump start a research program, OK, that was a priority 00:17:05.209 --> 00:17:11.117 junior faculty, uh, that was a priority. And part of this was I would 00:17:11.150 --> 00:17:15.877 really hand it to the senior faculty who would come here uh without a 00:17:15.910 --> 00:17:23.137 research expectation uh knew that they could mentor and support junior 00:17:23.170 --> 00:17:28.035 faculty and make life better for everyone and they did that. They really 00:17:28.068 --> 00:17:32.676 did that and in fact the college was started by Frank Sackton. He was the 00:17:32.709 --> 00:17:36.117 first dean of the college appointed by the president, like you said was 00:17:36.150 --> 00:17:39.486 solving all these problems by putting all these that was Russ Nelson, yeah 00:17:39.519 --> 00:17:46.156 , I think it was, yeah, and Frank had been a general and he had uh been a 00:17:46.189 --> 00:17:49.795 controller of the United States and he came to ASU and got a master's 00:17:49.828 --> 00:17:53.717 degree after he retired from the military and then was appointed Dean. Of 00:17:53.750 --> 00:18:00.756 the college but his idea was, uh, you go hire people for the future. Not 00:18:00.789 --> 00:18:04.315 the past. You don't hire your own image you hire people for the future, 00:18:04.348 --> 00:18:09.877 and he was a great dean because he did that. He started, uh, public 00:18:09.910 --> 00:18:15.315 programs not just to be practice and teaching but to have a research focus. 00:18:15.348 --> 00:18:20.236 He was an interesting guy for a lot of reasons he was he was so much a 00:18:20.269 --> 00:18:26.035 general and yet he was one of the first people to support LGBT research on 00:18:26.068 --> 00:18:30.256 campus. It was you could have knocked me over with a feather, but we were 00:18:30.289 --> 00:18:34.496 glad for the support. No, he was, uh, but the college did have kind of a 00:18:34.529 --> 00:18:38.815 unique place even at ASU. No one ever liked the name College of Public 00:18:38.848 --> 00:18:41.535 programs. Why don't you change the name? Well, what are you gonna change 00:18:41.568 --> 00:18:46.416 it to? Did you ever come up with an idea for a name change? No, because no 00:18:46.449 --> 00:18:49.867 one, including me, could ever think of one, and people said, well, why 00:18:49.900 --> 00:18:53.176 don't you call it College of Public Affairs? Well, the school of public 00:18:53.209 --> 00:18:57.535 affairs had that name that would center them, right? One idea was why 00:18:57.568 --> 00:19:01.256 don't we get Walter to Cronkite to spread his name over the whole college 00:19:01.289 --> 00:19:05.526 and we'll call it the College of communication. The Walter Cronkite, well 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:08.526 , public affairs and wreck Management Justice studies didn't like that 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:12.686 very much and let's call it communication means something to other people 00:19:12.719 --> 00:19:16.446 . I mean, you know, there are communication schools all over the all over 00:19:16.479 --> 00:19:20.387 the country, and there's people that's people, no one could ever think of 00:19:20.420 --> 00:19:25.186 a better name. That's why it has always stayed college of public programs. 00:19:25.219 --> 00:19:27.926 Um. 00:19:27.959 --> 00:19:32.325 What do you believe were your most interesting achievements in the overall 00:19:32.358 --> 00:19:35.065 view of the university 00:19:35.098 --> 00:19:38.285 and the personally for yourself I'm really more interested in personally 00:19:38.318 --> 00:19:41.486 what you think. Well, let me, let me do that second one, that one first. 00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:49.476 One of, uh, my goals as a, as a dean was to provide a quality working 00:19:49.509 --> 00:19:54.805 experience for faculty, a real quality working environment for faculty. Uh 00:19:54.838 --> 00:19:59.305 , and a quality educational experience for students, those were, those 00:19:59.338 --> 00:20:04.746 were the two things that I, um, that I thought were most, most important, 00:20:04.779 --> 00:20:08.906 and I really am proud of the fact that the dean's office was actually 00:20:08.939 --> 00:20:13.186 known for, uh, you know, for those kind of things being fair, transparent 00:20:13.219 --> 00:20:19.266 , accountable, efficient, professional. We were friendly, friendly, yeah, 00:20:19.299 --> 00:20:25.545 very friendly helpful, collegial, right, um, we stood for high academic 00:20:25.578 --> 00:20:31.256 standards but we didn't, uh, look down on certain disciplines as if they 00:20:31.289 --> 00:20:37.305 were stepchildren. Um, our budget was public, for example, when, when we 00:20:37.338 --> 00:20:41.585 had money to allocate for raises, everyone knew exactly how much it was, 00:20:41.618 --> 00:20:46.575 and we would reach criteria and standards in a way to, to allocate that 00:20:46.608 --> 00:20:50.467 that people actually thought was fair. It was systematic. It wasn't just 00:20:50.500 --> 00:20:54.706 up to someone's whim. I'll give a big raise to so and so. I remember 00:20:54.739 --> 00:20:58.426 actually that was quite shocking to someone from liberal arts when I 00:20:58.459 --> 00:21:01.416 because I knew so many people in your college because they were affiliated 00:21:01.449 --> 00:21:07.607 faculty of mine. And uh the difference in the way that merit raises and 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:11.446 things were evaluated in your college and my college were substantial 00:21:11.479 --> 00:21:15.526 although my college got increasingly transparent. I think so uh but our 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:22.867 budget was even even transparent. I have to tell a quick story. One of the 00:21:22.900 --> 00:21:29.026 one of my personal goals the first year I came and I had come out of um a 00:21:29.059 --> 00:21:34.107 university at Oklahoma State where was in some ways a much better 00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:38.976 university than people gave it credit for but sometimes the management 00:21:39.009 --> 00:21:44.631 issues were were not man was not very good at times OK and. My one of my 00:21:44.664 --> 00:21:47.831 pledges to myself was I would get through the whole first year without 00:21:47.864 --> 00:21:52.752 telling a lie to anyone or not deceiving anyone right? that drill dreamer 00:21:52.785 --> 00:21:56.472 and 00:21:56.505 --> 00:22:01.551 so so sometimes you just had to bite the bullet and say uh they have 00:22:01.584 --> 00:22:04.555 promised us 4 positions. 00:22:04.588 --> 00:22:09.285 Not 5, so not everyone's going to get one or they cut our budget by X 00:22:09.318 --> 00:22:13.236 amount, and some of you are going to have to uh bear more of the burden 00:22:13.269 --> 00:22:16.717 than that than others because some of you have more resources than others. 00:22:16.750 --> 00:22:20.347 And I can remember saying especially to public affairs thank you public 00:22:20.380 --> 00:22:24.147 affairs for having made yourself rich so you can help carry the rest 00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:31.147 through this time of adversity um but I was, uh, I really think we did 00:22:31.180 --> 00:22:35.526 provide a work a quality environment for faculty we actually we mentored 00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:39.627 junior faculty we really did and supported them and mentored them and gave 00:22:39.660 --> 00:22:43.186 them Dean's incentive grants and if they wrote a bad proposal we actually 00:22:43.219 --> 00:22:47.166 had a committee that reviewed them. We instead of turning them down we 00:22:47.199 --> 00:22:50.887 would meet with them and help teach them how to write a better research 00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:58.920 proposal so you know um I had lunch pizza lunch. Once a month with all the 00:22:59.059 --> 00:23:05.406 untenured faculty in the college. Usually 15 to 20. Because we weren't all 00:23:05.439 --> 00:23:11.127 that big, but this gave untenured faculty direct access to me, the dean, 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:14.847 right? So instead of being told by a senior faculty member, well, the 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:19.127 rules are A, B and C, they would ask me, say, are the rules A, B, and C? I 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:24.426 said, Where did you hear that, you know, so, um, and they got to know each 00:23:24.459 --> 00:23:29.967 other across departments this way, and you, you would be astounded when 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:35.325 you would see someone. In journalism talking about Foucaul and someone in 00:23:35.358 --> 00:23:41.127 communication would go you're talking about Foucaul because they had these 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:46.246 images of each other that were that were really uh very different from 00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:52.285 they they learned different things about one another so uh and we I think 00:23:52.318 --> 00:23:57.726 provide a quality educational experience for students. Uh, my idea was 00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:01.857 that every student who took a class from CO should be assured when they 00:24:01.890 --> 00:24:06.535 walked in that classroom that that class would be interesting, inspiring, 00:24:06.568 --> 00:24:11.976 maybe even transforming, uh, and that the and faculty were expected to be 00:24:12.009 --> 00:24:16.016 able to teach well and if they couldn't, you know, they actually could not 00:24:16.049 --> 00:24:20.357 get tenure. In our college you really turn anybody down for not teaching 00:24:20.390 --> 00:24:26.996 well? Yes, there were, we didn't usually end up having to turn people down. 00:24:27.029 --> 00:24:30.597 We had a, as you remember, 2 year and 4 year review and then a 3 year 00:24:30.630 --> 00:24:36.476 review and if people couldn't teach very well and hadn't been able to 00:24:36.509 --> 00:24:41.075 learn to do that, I think most we there was people who left because they 00:24:41.108 --> 00:24:46.456 simply could not or would not put their mind to teach a quality class. Uh 00:24:46.489 --> 00:24:52.736 , we only turned down so far as on one person. For tenure because they 00:24:52.769 --> 00:24:57.186 couldn't teach well but people left on those grounds and same thing with 00:24:57.219 --> 00:25:03.686 research people didn't usually get it into their 5th year and not. Not be 00:25:03.719 --> 00:25:08.035 not be ready for tenure, uh, they, they knew what the expectations were 00:25:08.068 --> 00:25:10.926 and if they hadn't met them they would usually start looking for a job 00:25:10.959 --> 00:25:16.976 before they actually came up for tenure. But um uh there were there were 00:25:17.009 --> 00:25:20.607 some other things in terms of achievements and more academic kind of terms 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:26.736 that I made some notes on we started started a lot of programs and and a 00:25:26.769 --> 00:25:31.976 lot of centers and um you know Morrison Institute was in the college and I 00:25:32.009 --> 00:25:36.656 think it just flourished under Rob Melnick's leadership and became and 00:25:36.689 --> 00:25:41.117 still is the best respected public policy center in the in the state. The 00:25:41.150 --> 00:25:45.847 uh no we started the nonprofit program now named the Lone Star program uh 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:49.926 we got acquainted with Hugh Downs is that the Humana? No, that's, yes, 00:25:49.959 --> 00:25:54.377 it's Humanics, um, but we one of the first country first countries, one of 00:25:54.410 --> 00:25:58.285 the first universities in the country to have a nonprofit actually offer a 00:25:58.318 --> 00:26:01.526 degree in nonprofit studies, but that was part of the tradition of 00:26:01.559 --> 00:26:06.766 recognizing new and emerging disciplines and being willing to then support 00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:11.607 and accommodate. And we started American Indian studies, Asian Pacific 00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:14.486 American studies we would have started women's studies, Mary, except it 00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:18.847 was already existing in liberal arts a long time, yeah, 00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:23.166 we started, uh, well, the John Frank lecture series, for example, so there 00:26:23.199 --> 00:26:28.926 were a lot of those kind of achievements, uh, starting new programs, 00:26:28.959 --> 00:26:33.666 supporting them even in a time when. Uh, maybe I shouldn't say this on the 00:26:33.699 --> 00:26:38.347 record. We had a pretty hostile legislature, as you know, pretty well, a 00:26:38.380 --> 00:26:43.347 pretty hostile legislature, and, um, they cut budgets for the universities 00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:47.236 even when they didn't need to have done that. They zeroed out the Morrison 00:26:47.269 --> 00:26:50.946 Institute. They didn't like the analysis. They, they zeroed out women's 00:26:50.979 --> 00:26:55.867 studies. Those were both in the same year. Uh, and it was not a good, yeah 00:26:55.900 --> 00:27:00.946 , so, so some of those kind of things, uh, yeah, I think the college was 00:27:00.979 --> 00:27:05.867 really very, very successful. I was very pleased with our accomplishments. 00:27:05.900 --> 00:27:10.526 So how about your personal accomplishments? I thought that uh uh an 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:15.137 administrator ought to keep 1 ft in the faculty world and 1 ft in 00:27:15.170 --> 00:27:23.170 administration, so, um, so I taught a class every year which I use I kind 00:27:23.568 --> 00:27:28.166 of have a love hate relationship with teaching classes. I love teaching a 00:27:28.199 --> 00:27:33.176 class on the other hand, it comes around whether I'm ready for it or not 00:27:33.209 --> 00:27:38.785 and uh. Uh, but I did that and I also thought, well, you know, I have all 00:27:38.818 --> 00:27:42.746 this time on my hands. I should be able to write a paper or two, and I 00:27:42.779 --> 00:27:47.305 actually published two books and quite a few articles during the time I 00:27:47.338 --> 00:27:50.825 was dean. So I was pleased with that too. One of the books that Helen 00:27:50.858 --> 00:27:56.545 Ingram and I did, um, won a Lifetime achievement award from APSA for a 00:27:56.578 --> 00:28:00.986 book that's been out at least 10 years and still has a lasting impact on 00:28:01.019 --> 00:28:06.206 the discipline that was, was very nice to get that award. So, so I felt 00:28:06.239 --> 00:28:11.127 like, you know, that I had a really successful career here. So when, uh, 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:15.406 did you step down as Dean? I stepped down, I think I was just here a year 00:28:15.439 --> 00:28:20.367 after Michael Crow came or maybe two, and I stepped down about 2003 or 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:27.016 2004 somewhere in there, and then since I kept 1 ft. In the faculty world 00:28:27.049 --> 00:28:31.256 it was easy for me to go back to a department and what department did you 00:28:31.289 --> 00:28:35.055 go back? I went back to justice studies first and then after a couple of 3 00:28:35.088 --> 00:28:38.867 years there, uh. 00:28:38.900 --> 00:28:41.946 Because one of my public policy areas had been criminal justice and 00:28:41.979 --> 00:28:47.186 juvenile justice, so that was a good fit for me up for a while but then it 00:28:47.219 --> 00:28:50.887 seemed to me I was really much more of a political scientist and justice 00:28:50.920 --> 00:28:56.785 studies had become more of uh a sociology program, and I just kind of 00:28:56.818 --> 00:29:00.426 wanted to get back to my own disciplines, so I went political science, so 00:29:00.459 --> 00:29:03.666 you ended up in the college of liberals in in liberal arts after all, yes 00:29:03.699 --> 00:29:06.486 , I did indeed. 00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:10.496 Just had to rub that I know you just had, had to, had to mention that, 00:29:10.529 --> 00:29:14.656 yeah, uh, of all your accomplishments at ASU, which has given you the most 00:29:14.689 --> 00:29:20.357 satisfaction. I think being a good dean. Try trying to be a really good 00:29:20.390 --> 00:29:24.756 dean and ending up with really successful faculty successful students 00:29:24.789 --> 00:29:29.676 successful programs, uh, and you know, being known for the things I 00:29:29.709 --> 00:29:34.956 mentioned fairness, transparency, honesty, I think I got through all 15 00:29:34.989 --> 00:29:41.897 years without telling a lie and uh. And collegiality and and support we 00:29:41.930 --> 00:29:47.325 really supported faculty we really trusted faculty and faculty governance 00:29:47.358 --> 00:29:51.347 and I was really proud of those kinds of things. I got a lot of 00:29:51.380 --> 00:29:54.857 satisfaction out of that got a lot of satisfaction out of the kids, the 00:29:54.890 --> 00:30:00.206 students also students are great. Did you see any differences in the way 00:30:00.239 --> 00:30:06.847 you were a dean because you were a woman? Oh, I think so, um, like what? 00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:09.946 Well, you're. 00:30:09.979 --> 00:30:13.506 I hate to be quite so gender specific because there are a lot of men who 00:30:13.539 --> 00:30:17.186 are are this way too, but I think women are just a little more 00:30:17.219 --> 00:30:23.335 compassionate they tend to be a little kinder I think they're not quite so 00:30:23.368 --> 00:30:30.726 quick to rush to judgment uh they keep more options open. OK, um, I 00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:34.085 learned a long time ago I better listen to and actually I, I guess I 00:30:34.118 --> 00:30:39.075 learned this from my dad, uh, better listen to both sides before you make 00:30:39.108 --> 00:30:42.887 up your mind, better get your facts straight before you start, start 00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:48.166 moving on things, um. But I have to say the men uh that I worked with the 00:30:48.199 --> 00:30:53.127 chairs and the men in who were deans and Milton Laddy were were really 00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:56.607 wonderful yeah, women grow up with different experiences and different 00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:03.535 expectations and I do think there is uh a little bit of a kinder gentler 00:31:03.568 --> 00:31:10.315 nature about women. Uh, in, in public affairs, in public life, in 00:31:10.348 --> 00:31:14.676 management positions, and of course Margaret Thatcher who just died, 00:31:14.709 --> 00:31:21.516 disproves my entire theory I suppose but I do think, uh, I think women 00:31:21.549 --> 00:31:26.526 have to work harder, uh, to avoid, to avoid criticism you have to work 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:31.696 harder. Um, and they get there to get there partly because you do have to 00:31:31.729 --> 00:31:34.976 keep more options, more balls in the air all the time because you never 00:31:35.009 --> 00:31:40.256 know what door might open or might close, so you have to have some other, 00:31:40.289 --> 00:31:46.496 uh, place you could go and, and I think, I think, think men are better 00:31:46.529 --> 00:31:50.176 able to set a goal in life and say that's what I want to be, that's where 00:31:50.209 --> 00:31:54.766 I'm headed. And women are more apt to say, well I could do this or I could 00:31:54.799 --> 00:32:01.085 do that or maybe what if I end up doing this, you see so and that just in 00:32:01.118 --> 00:32:05.805 some ways creates more work I think for women. Did you see yourself as a 00:32:05.838 --> 00:32:11.276 role model for women in your college? I suppose I hope I was a good one. 00:32:11.309 --> 00:32:15.305 yes, I think so. I, I, I actually know several women who thought that of 00:32:15.338 --> 00:32:19.795 you. OK, uh, when I first came here there were so few women in the college 00:32:19.828 --> 00:32:24.555 that we used to get together on Wednesday afternoons about 4 o'clock 00:32:24.588 --> 00:32:30.897 almost every week at 9th and Ash. Um, uh, to drink beer or have a glass of 00:32:30.930 --> 00:32:34.766 wine or tell stories. There were so few of us we could fit around one 00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:42.799 booth at 9 9th and A. Um, But I do think it gave women an opportunity that 00:32:42.890 --> 00:32:48.256 they might not otherwise have had uh sometimes I supported a woman in a 00:32:48.289 --> 00:32:55.666 position for something that um. Uh, went against the grain. 00:32:55.699 --> 00:32:59.315 Did you ever feel, um. 00:32:59.348 --> 00:33:02.597 Did you ever feel there were. 00:33:02.630 --> 00:33:06.295 You could get in trouble for that or that maybe you were pushing 00:33:06.328 --> 00:33:12.976 boundaries I made the front page of the uh of the uh daily newspaper when 00:33:13.009 --> 00:33:19.285 I uh. Appointed Maria Allison to be chair of wreck management instead of 00:33:19.318 --> 00:33:24.166 uh the man who had been contesting for that position he had won the vote 00:33:24.199 --> 00:33:27.926 and I appointed her anyway and that made the front the front page of the 00:33:27.959 --> 00:33:31.526 newspaper Dean overrides faculty. 00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:37.006 Um, but it was interesting. The person that had contested her for that 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:41.166 position came to me maybe 3 or 4 weeks later. He said, You were absolutely 00:33:41.199 --> 00:33:45.926 right to pick Maria. She's a great dean, he said, I'll be a much and, and 00:33:45.959 --> 00:33:50.746 I said to him, you'll be a much better chair after you've been in a 00:33:50.779 --> 00:33:54.085 college in in the department with her as dean, and that was true. He 00:33:54.118 --> 00:33:57.967 became the next chair. And he was a much better chair because she was she 00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:03.406 , no, yeah, I had put her as chair of uh of wreck management and tourism 00:34:03.439 --> 00:34:09.057 sorry I misspoke there, yeah, um. So I think in some ways yeah I was 00:34:09.090 --> 00:34:13.217 probably a role model we used to have parties at my house uh we'd have one 00:34:13.250 --> 00:34:17.807 big faculty party every year with all the faculty and the and the staff 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:23.834 invited and and the women came. You know, and I think uh I'm not sure 00:34:23.867 --> 00:34:28.354 whether uh a male dean would have had a big party or would, would the 00:34:28.387 --> 00:34:31.995 women have felt, I don't know as well I think women when they got to be 00:34:32.028 --> 00:34:37.236 more obvious it was easier. And when social work then uh and that's one of 00:34:37.269 --> 00:34:41.486 the things I was proud of social work had been told they could no longer 00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:44.497 be a college of their own. 00:34:44.530 --> 00:34:50.276 And they were gonna have to find some place to go and so I asked our 00:34:50.309 --> 00:34:57.037 department chairs, would you be willing. To welcome social work into the 00:34:57.070 --> 00:35:02.675 college, I asked our faculty at a faculty meeting, and they all said yes, 00:35:02.708 --> 00:35:05.675 really would have been the only college that could have gone into, uh, 00:35:05.708 --> 00:35:10.135 west. Oh, you mean move it on they could have gone west or could have gone 00:35:10.168 --> 00:35:13.967 to east, yes, but I was really pleased. We welcomed them into the college 00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.896 and I think they felt welcome. Then we had a lot more women in the college 00:35:16.929 --> 00:35:21.595 , yeah. Um, 00:35:21.628 --> 00:35:25.997 What kind of advice would you give young people choosing their college and 00:35:26.030 --> 00:35:31.566 their career? And I've done this with on many occasions with with younger 00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:37.146 faculty uh. Do those things that you really want to do those things you're 00:35:37.179 --> 00:35:41.396 passionate about do those things you really love to do. Do those things 00:35:41.429 --> 00:35:46.195 that give you more energy than they take from you and try to avoid stuff 00:35:46.228 --> 00:35:53.095 that saps your energy. Uh, how about choosing colleges? 00:35:53.128 --> 00:35:57.956 Uh, I'm not quite sure what you mean. Well, I'm just looking at, what 00:35:57.989 --> 00:36:01.997 advice would you give a young person if I, if I had a graduate students 00:36:02.030 --> 00:36:05.595 asking me where to go to college, uh, some place where you, some place 00:36:05.628 --> 00:36:09.436 that's really good that has the kind of program you want, and I did advise 00:36:09.469 --> 00:36:13.236 , particularly graduate students and undergraduates go to a really good 00:36:13.269 --> 00:36:17.126 university, 00:36:17.159 --> 00:36:20.095 uh, to really go to the best one you can get into it will serve you well 00:36:20.128 --> 00:36:26.885 all the rest of your life, um. And yeah that's what occupies your time as 00:36:26.918 --> 00:36:32.287 a retiree. Well, as you know, I do a lot of I do a lot of volunteer work 00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:37.405 for the Unitarian Universalist, uh, the Valley Unitarian Universalist. A 00:36:37.438 --> 00:36:40.646 lot of that is some of the same kind of thing I did as a faculty, you know 00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:45.497 , as an administrator. I work on policy and finances and budget and, and, 00:36:45.530 --> 00:36:51.666 uh, trying to settle disputes and other kinds of things like that, um. And 00:36:51.699 --> 00:36:57.327 I do um writing. If someone really asked me what do you do? I'd like to 00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:03.916 say I'm a writer. However, Uh, that's kind of sporadic, you know. I have 00:37:03.949 --> 00:37:07.776 written, compiled, I've written a lot of poems and I've compiled a book of 00:37:07.809 --> 00:37:12.316 poems called Desert Poems with photographs with photographs I've become, I 00:37:12.349 --> 00:37:17.956 think, a pretty, uh, reasonably good photographer. Uh, I like, uh, I still 00:37:17.989 --> 00:37:23.486 like to do a lot of hiking and I love road trips and I think. I still very 00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:28.646 much like uh adventures though my adventures are not nearly as adventurous 00:37:28.679 --> 00:37:33.967 as they used to be but something that's that's different or unexpected. I 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:37.646 mean if you want to have an adventure you've got to take a chance and get 00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:40.845 out there and do something a little different so give us an example of an 00:37:40.878 --> 00:37:47.776 adventure you took. In the last little while, oh my, an adventure, I 00:37:47.809 --> 00:37:52.316 suppose the last big adventure was after I stepped down as dean. I took a 00:37:52.349 --> 00:37:58.396 year off, uh, as I had a, it was my very first sabbatical. And I went to 00:37:58.429 --> 00:38:02.236 Moscow to a conference in Moscow where with a bunch of other people and we 00:38:02.269 --> 00:38:06.756 took a side trip to Saint Petersburg and then I spent the next 3 months 00:38:06.789 --> 00:38:10.385 traveling by myself through Siberia. 00:38:10.418 --> 00:38:15.577 From Moscow all the way to Irkutsk, which if you ever played rescue 00:38:15.610 --> 00:38:22.186 recognize Irkuts was one of the uh battle stations in Russia, um, and I in 00:38:22.219 --> 00:38:27.747 Irkuts I had my purse stolen so I'm without any papers whatsoever uh so 00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:33.997 that was that was a a big. A big adventure. I would have enjoyed that 00:38:34.030 --> 00:38:38.916 though I prefer more southern climes. uh, well, in the summer in Siberia 00:38:38.949 --> 00:38:45.436 it's uh it's kind of like, uh, Minnesota warm and muggy. Um, do you have 00:38:45.469 --> 00:38:48.517 any comments in areas we haven't covered? I don't think so. I had a lot of 00:38:48.550 --> 00:38:56.155 notes, most of which are are of no particular value here, um. But I don't 00:38:56.188 --> 00:39:01.967 think so. I think um. I think that's probably about it. I've had a, I did 00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:06.327 want to say something. I think probably the best thing ASU ever did was to 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:11.396 hire Laddie Core. Yes, that we were in a period of transition as I 00:39:11.429 --> 00:39:16.206 mentioned when I started, uh, and, and Lattie brought Milt here and Lattie 00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.727 tells a story that he had had his eye on Milt Glick who was at Iowa State. 00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:25.526 Lattie's in Vermont and had tried to get Milt to go to Vermont to be 00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:30.956 provost and he had turned him down but so Milk came because Lattie came 00:39:30.989 --> 00:39:36.787 and when they hired Lattie they were hiring a hometown boy. That had a lot 00:39:36.820 --> 00:39:41.787 of connections here in the valley already and a wonderful wonderfully 00:39:41.820 --> 00:39:47.706 talented and inspiring leader and he was fair and transparent and he 00:39:47.739 --> 00:39:53.827 trusted uh faculty and ASU grew in all the right directions and Milt's a 00:39:53.860 --> 00:39:59.227 wonderful wonderful person to work with. He too was always fair and honest 00:39:59.260 --> 00:40:04.595 and supportive. Uh, and of everyone, not just me were incredibly 00:40:04.628 --> 00:40:09.195 supportive of women faculty and women's studies and of unusual disciplines 00:40:09.228 --> 00:40:15.925 like, like ours, you know, uh, so anyway, I, I really enjoyed my time at 00:40:15.958 --> 00:40:20.986 ASU. I enjoyed justice studies. I very much enjoyed political science, 00:40:21.019 --> 00:40:26.967 totally different kinds of departments, but I like them both. OK, OK, 00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:29.086 that, 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:34.566 yeah, keep that rolling. Let me have a drink of, can I do what was his 00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:38.767 name? Marco Rubio. I grabbed for my drink. I'm with Gary Gary was terrific 00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:40.989 and it was like a dream team. there was nothing. I didn't feel there was anything I'd get really turned down on if I had if I had my data there, they were gonna support me, yeah, 00:41:00.269 --> 00:41:05.925 yeah. What's your questions on microphones died, Mary I'm not sure. 00:41:05.958 --> 00:41:09.046 Maybe it's on because I put it on the floor. Oh, Mary's Mary's is the one 00:41:09.079 --> 00:41:13.967 that died. We 00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:18.956 interviewed Gary. Oh yeah, he's a fabulous dean. 00:41:18.989 --> 00:41:21.425 Good. I'm glad you interviewed him before he died. He was great to work 00:41:21.458 --> 00:41:24.517 with. Milt was just he was, he couldn't have been more supportive of 00:41:24.550 --> 00:41:30.396 women's studies. I mean, uh, it was unbelievable. He was so great. What 00:41:30.429 --> 00:41:37.477 you got? Well, let's go back to Oakland. 00:41:37.510 --> 00:41:41.606 Well, uh, it was a farm. It was a wheat farm really more than a ranch, but 00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:45.836 we also, we diversified, so we raised wheat, we raised cattle and my 00:41:45.869 --> 00:41:51.876 brother was, uh, 14 months older than me. We were both born just before 00:41:51.909 --> 00:41:58.986 World War II. And so we were on the farm and uh. Uh, we've had wheat and 00:41:59.019 --> 00:42:05.827 cattle and pigs and chickens and we milk cows and one of my jobs was, uh, 00:42:05.860 --> 00:42:10.557 after school was to go after the cows. And at then down in the pasture 00:42:10.590 --> 00:42:14.925 about a half mile away and bring the cows back, run them in the barn and 00:42:14.958 --> 00:42:18.936 Tim of course helped with the milking. He was big and strong. I was little 00:42:18.969 --> 00:42:23.497 and scrawny and I wasn't very good at milking cows, but they always set me 00:42:23.530 --> 00:42:29.856 up a stool and let me milk the cows and. And uh uh I drove a tractor for 00:42:29.889 --> 00:42:36.155 my dad. I plowed all in the summer starting when right after 6th grade. Um 00:42:36.188 --> 00:42:41.445 , and I drove a wheat truck for my dad in the summers when I was 14 00:42:41.478 --> 00:42:45.486 because you could get a permit when you were 14, and I loved it. I loved, 00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:51.845 I love growing up on a farm. It was just great. I love who your dad was. 00:42:51.878 --> 00:42:56.247 Well, my, my folks had both been to college and we're both college 00:42:56.280 --> 00:43:00.445 graduates and have both gone back out to Western Northwestern Oklahoma. My 00:43:00.478 --> 00:43:04.006 grandparents had all homesteaded out there. They went back out there 00:43:04.039 --> 00:43:09.095 during the Dust Bowl. Uh, and during the Depression and my dad right out 00:43:09.128 --> 00:43:15.365 of college ran for the legislature, the state legislature, and won. And he 00:43:15.398 --> 00:43:20.287 served in the legislature the whole time except for World War 2 and once 00:43:20.320 --> 00:43:26.006 he got beat. He actually lost an election by one vote anyway so it was 00:43:26.039 --> 00:43:32.506 kind of interesting because my folks were very much farm people 00:43:32.539 --> 00:43:36.486 um and my mom was a school teacher, my dad was a legislator and they 00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:44.519 worked very hard to be uh middle class, not hicks. I would, I think, have 00:43:44.688 --> 00:43:49.736 preferred to be a hick, but, uh, uh, they worked very hard to make me not 00:43:49.769 --> 00:43:55.816 in not be a hick also, uh, so it is that kind of what you want it? It 00:43:55.849 --> 00:43:58.736 really was a real farm. 00:43:58.769 --> 00:44:03.416 I tell you, you know where the panhandle joins the state, right there, 00:44:03.449 --> 00:44:07.456 right where it joins the state in that corner about 40 miles from Texas, 00:44:07.489 --> 00:44:12.526 about 60 miles south of the Kansas border. Right near Woodward and and 00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:19.925 Gauge. Better known towns. Uh, how about where The interstate comes across 00:44:19.958 --> 00:44:22.046 from east. 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:29.296 The Interstate 40 about 90 miles north of Interstate 40 right after you 00:44:29.329 --> 00:44:33.856 cross the Oklahoma line you go straight up uh to Woodward and you actually 00:44:33.889 --> 00:44:40.166 bend back a little toward Texas. Yes, Dust Bowl very much Dust Bowl days 00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:46.405 and uh my folks were young adults during the Dust Bowl. They actually met 00:44:46.438 --> 00:44:52.195 after they knew each other in high school. But they didn't really know 00:44:52.228 --> 00:44:55.796 each other because they lived one in the north and one in the south part 00:44:55.829 --> 00:45:00.557 of the county, but they both went back out there during the Dust Bowl 00:45:00.590 --> 00:45:06.115 during the depression after college because uh their folks were about to 00:45:06.148 --> 00:45:10.506 lose their farms and my dad went back out after the bank he was working 00:45:10.539 --> 00:45:16.095 for went bankrupt. And my mom had actually gone to California uh after 00:45:16.128 --> 00:45:22.736 college. She graduated from college when she was 18 years old. 00:45:22.769 --> 00:45:29.057 No, my dad, I was the rebel. My dad went to the University of Oklahoma in 00:45:29.090 --> 00:45:35.497 Norman, and my mom went to Panhandle A&M. And then to Northwestern State 00:45:35.530 --> 00:45:41.827 in Alva Teachers College. Uh, she actually went to OU later and got a 00:45:41.860 --> 00:45:46.385 master's in journalism because she taught journalism. 00:45:46.418 --> 00:45:52.827 The big city was Woodward. It had 8000 people in it. No, the really big 00:45:52.860 --> 00:45:58.267 city was Oklahoma City. Uh, it was, no, no, Ok, well, my dad was in the 00:45:58.300 --> 00:46:02.385 legislature, so we went back and forth to Oklahoma City. It was 170 miles 00:46:02.418 --> 00:46:06.296 away and Amarillo was 170 miles, so it was right, we were right in between 00:46:06.329 --> 00:46:14.267 the two. But Oklahoma and Texas, there's a big border there. You know, 00:46:14.300 --> 00:46:20.809 Very much Oklahomans, not Texans. You notice I don't have a Texas accent. 00:46:21.309 --> 00:46:23.309 Stop in this little town called Erick, Oklahoma, yeah, down south, yeah. 00:46:28.269 --> 00:46:31.876 The singer 00:46:31.909 --> 00:46:38.546 England swings like 00:46:38.579 --> 00:46:46.579 00, Roger Miller, yeah, uh-huh. Uh, another area. 00:46:47.228 --> 00:46:51.566 Oh well, Brent was in the School of Public Affairs, one of the old time 00:46:51.599 --> 00:46:56.905 faculty members when I came and was a vice president or over in in the 00:46:56.938 --> 00:47:02.296 Provost office, VP for academic affairs at the time. And so I never really 00:47:02.329 --> 00:47:07.017 worked much with Brent, but he was one of kind of the the old time public 00:47:07.050 --> 00:47:13.816 affairs people that had been a mainstay of the school he was he was always 00:47:13.849 --> 00:47:17.296 really good to me although I didn't really work with him or know him very 00:47:17.329 --> 00:47:24.655 well. 00:47:24.688 --> 00:47:26.836 OK, 00:47:26.869 --> 00:47:32.186 um. At Prescott? No, no, why? 00:47:32.219 --> 00:47:37.195 Yeah, yes, they did. It was a retreat. Do you know how do you how do you 00:47:37.228 --> 00:47:39.717 know VUU? 00:47:39.750 --> 00:47:45.115 Oh yeah, no, that is the Unitarian, uh, universal congregation that that I 00:47:45.148 --> 00:47:50.037 do a lot of volunteer work for, but I didn't go up to to Prescott, uh, 00:47:50.070 --> 00:47:52.316 yeah. 00:47:52.349 --> 00:48:00.349 Now I'm saying Roger Carter is doing camera and audio. OK, sure. 00:48:00.550 --> 00:48:08.017 Uh Good afternoon. Today is April 17, 2013. We're conducting an interview 00:48:08.050 --> 00:48:13.345 for the Arizona State University Res Retirees Association video history 00:48:13.378 --> 00:48:18.046 project. We're located today in the ASU Community Services building. I'm 00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:22.816 Mary Rothschild, a professor emerita of women's studies and history. The 00:48:22.849 --> 00:48:27.416 technical support staff today include Roger Carter doing audio and 00:48:27.449 --> 00:48:33.856 operating the camera and Dave Schotsley, who is the director. 00:48:33.889 --> 00:48:41.175 OK, 00:48:41.208 --> 00:48:43.537 you have anything to do with Walter Cronkite or The, uh, uh, School of 00:48:43.570 --> 00:48:47.566 Journalism was also already named the Walter Cronkite School when I came 00:48:47.599 --> 00:48:53.896 and we were very, very proud of that. Uh, yes, the, uh, the Hugh Downs 00:48:53.929 --> 00:48:56.977 School of Communication was named when I was here. We got acquainted with 00:48:57.010 --> 00:49:02.497 Hugh and, uh, Ruth Downs through some of the community outreach programs 00:49:02.530 --> 00:49:07.856 we did and some of the alumni from. Jeannie Herberger, particularly, uh, 00:49:07.889 --> 00:49:13.135 the, the school of communication contacted them and we that was named the 00:49:13.168 --> 00:49:17.655 Lodestar name also came from some of the community contacts that we had 00:49:17.688 --> 00:49:24.175 done. Uh, it's Lone Stars nonprofit center. Now the John Frank lecture 00:49:24.208 --> 00:49:27.925 series was named when I was here because some people in the school of 00:49:27.958 --> 00:49:33.405 justice studies had worked very closely with John Frank. I didn't know 00:49:33.438 --> 00:49:37.166 John Frank. He had already died when when I came, but I knew Lorraine 00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:41.845 Frank pretty well. She had become, uh, something of an advocate for our 00:49:41.878 --> 00:49:46.135 college as well. That's actually something that I think should have been 00:49:46.168 --> 00:49:52.376 brought out is how much work you did in the community um you personally 00:49:52.409 --> 00:49:58.106 did in the community with uh getting donors and people involved uh in ASU 00:49:58.139 --> 00:50:02.517 who had not been before I mean. Lorraine Franks was a very proud Vassar 00:50:02.550 --> 00:50:06.316 graduate. She really didn't have anything to do with ASU much before. I 00:50:06.349 --> 00:50:10.916 mean, I knew her very well because through the Humanities council, but you 00:50:10.949 --> 00:50:15.717 brought in a lot of people who weren't ASU people initially. I think uh it 00:50:15.750 --> 00:50:19.767 was an opportunity to do that because the College of Public programs was 00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:26.095 part of our identity was doing that sort of thing. I got involved in. Um, 00:50:26.128 --> 00:50:31.336 doing some juvenile justice advocacy work originally and I'm, as you know 00:50:31.369 --> 00:50:36.195 , a bit of a data analyst, a social science data analyst, and I was 00:50:36.228 --> 00:50:40.296 analyzing data for the commission on the status of women that had just 00:50:40.329 --> 00:50:46.936 started and I got acquainted with people there and then with uh. In our 00:50:46.969 --> 00:50:51.416 own uh alumni association that's where I met uh Jeannie Herberger and 00:50:51.449 --> 00:50:55.095 Barbara Barrett, and they introduced me to, well, Barbara Barrett's a 00:50:55.128 --> 00:50:59.296 graduate of the of public affairs, uh, and Jeannie of communication and 00:50:59.329 --> 00:51:04.296 Ellie Ziegler of communication and other people in the communi in the 00:51:04.329 --> 00:51:10.896 community who introduced me to other people and. Uh, so I did make a lot 00:51:10.929 --> 00:51:15.256 of friends in the community which resulted in a lot of fundraising. It did 00:51:15.289 --> 00:51:19.256 result in a lot of, lot of fundraising, and I was, uh, invited to be a 00:51:19.289 --> 00:51:24.256 part of the Arizona, uh, Women's Forum where I met even more people and I 00:51:24.289 --> 00:51:29.405 was one of the founders of the, uh, founding board members of the Arizona 00:51:29.438 --> 00:51:37.256 Women's, uh, Women's Foundation, Arizona Women's Foundation, so. 00:51:37.289 --> 00:51:41.836 I did meet a lot of people in the community, a lot of women leaders who 00:51:41.869 --> 00:51:47.477 were looking for for looking for some women at at ASU, but a lot of men 00:51:47.510 --> 00:51:52.756 also were very good, uh, became very good friends here we had a, a large 00:51:52.789 --> 00:51:58.115 dean's council. I just invited everyone I thought might be willing to to 00:51:58.148 --> 00:52:02.517 to join to be part of the Dean's council so people like Harry Mitchell, 00:52:02.550 --> 00:52:07.356 for example, uh, became part of the Dean's council. And we must have had 00:52:07.389 --> 00:52:13.046 30 people in that and we would put on 2 or 34 times a year we would invite 00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:18.836 them to campus for brunch or breakfast or lunch and highlight one of our 00:52:18.869 --> 00:52:22.166 programs, you know, Jess Alberts from communication would come over and 00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:26.247 talk about being on the Oprah Winfrey show or the Cronkite School would 00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:30.916 take people over and give them a tour. We would highlight some, uh, some 00:52:30.949 --> 00:52:34.267 program. I meant didn't mention the Southwest Interdisciplinary Research 00:52:34.300 --> 00:52:40.316 Center, CERC that was one of the programs we started, uh. So yeah they we 00:52:40.349 --> 00:52:45.655 did a lot of work in the community and I think that helped ASU then. Uh, 00:52:45.688 --> 00:52:51.916 later We were already embedded in the community when Michael Crow came and 00:52:51.949 --> 00:52:58.077 I just loved his vision of ASU being embedded in the community and uh 00:52:58.110 --> 00:53:02.436 because that was that was part of what Lattie was about. I was gonna say 00:53:02.469 --> 00:53:07.236 but that wasn't new because Lattie no it wasn't it wasn't that that new I 00:53:07.269 --> 00:53:13.276 think cop College of Public programs had been very instrumental in helping 00:53:13.309 --> 00:53:18.365 uh pave the way for that to happen to really blossom. Uh, under, under 00:53:18.398 --> 00:53:22.166 Michael, but it blossomed under Laddie. He had friends all over this, this 00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.626 community and women's studies had been doing women's advocacy work since 00:53:25.659 --> 00:53:31.006 we started. I mean since 1975, 1976. And we were very active in a lot of 00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:38.477 social justice kinds of issues 00:53:38.510 --> 00:53:41.066 you were going to ask, did you? How did you meet and what was your 00:53:41.099 --> 00:53:46.537 relationship with Mary? Oh, Mary was director of women's studies when I 00:53:46.570 --> 00:53:51.336 came. I came begging for money. Uh, yeah, I was in liberal arts, but we 00:53:51.369 --> 00:53:57.445 had 80 affiliated faculty, half of them from our not half of them, but, uh 00:53:57.478 --> 00:54:01.736 , a good, almost all the women in our college were affiliated were were 00:54:01.769 --> 00:54:05.376 affiliated faculty with women's studies because women's studies didn't 00:54:05.409 --> 00:54:09.615 have its own faculty for a long, long time. We were, it was all affiliated 00:54:09.648 --> 00:54:16.945 faculty in liberal arts. Justice, uh, public programs, art, um, the 00:54:16.978 --> 00:54:22.736 College of Art, um, fine arts, um, we didn't, and even after we got our 00:54:22.769 --> 00:54:29.905 own faculty, which is 25 years into my time at ASU, we were, we still had 00:54:29.938 --> 00:54:36.106 , uh, we still have affiliated faculty, so, um, and you know I regularly 00:54:36.139 --> 00:54:42.856 tapped. And for uh money we we would get together uh Nancy Russo was 00:54:42.889 --> 00:54:47.175 actually director of women's studies when I first came, and she had kind 00:54:47.208 --> 00:54:53.296 of a rocky relationship with uh Milt and and Lattie because she had a 00:54:53.329 --> 00:54:59.135 different vision of the organizational structure. She really want and I 00:54:59.168 --> 00:55:02.537 was actually in a session once she wanted women's studies to report 00:55:02.570 --> 00:55:07.267 directly to the provost. As being that which we actually had at one point 00:55:07.300 --> 00:55:12.836 , which was a mistake. Well, very early like I said early on, 3 or 4 of 00:55:12.869 --> 00:55:18.756 our programs all reported to the provost and they all wanted to. So, um, 00:55:18.789 --> 00:55:22.356 but our dean's incentive grants for example sometimes one of our faculty 00:55:22.389 --> 00:55:28.836 would team up with someone from some other uh college on a project that 00:55:28.869 --> 00:55:34.456 was a women's studies project. And so, and we gave, I mean when we had, we 00:55:34.489 --> 00:55:40.095 had tiny grants, ours were only $500 but sometimes we would you gave some 00:55:40.128 --> 00:55:44.376 money to it or a matching, but also we gave a lot of grants to women in 00:55:44.409 --> 00:55:49.756 public programs, but we worked we worked on on those kinds of kinds of 00:55:49.789 --> 00:55:53.206 issues. That's how I met Mary. She's a historian. Also I'm a political 00:55:53.239 --> 00:55:55.925 scientist, you know, political science kind of split off from history a 00:55:55.958 --> 00:55:59.845 long time ago we share some disciplinary roots and you know there wasn't a 00:55:59.878 --> 00:56:03.445 woman on campus who was tenured who wasn't excited that there was a new 00:56:03.478 --> 00:56:08.287 woman Dean. I mean, you know, so I met Ann almost immediately upon her 00:56:08.320 --> 00:56:13.077 arriving the faculty that I knew in her college, which was when you were. 00:56:13.110 --> 00:56:17.756 Right, when you arrived, I think every woman in your in your college was 00:56:17.789 --> 00:56:22.675 , was uh affiliated faculty of women's studies they may have been, um, in 00:56:22.708 --> 00:56:27.195 fact, I'm pretty sure they all were part of and so they they could hardly 00:56:27.228 --> 00:56:31.206 wait to tell me that they just hired this wonderful woman from Oklahoma 00:56:31.239 --> 00:56:37.365 State. So I met Ann almost immediately. There weren't all that many of us 00:56:37.398 --> 00:56:44.046 in those days and there were really. Very few of us when I came in 1975. 00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:49.456 Any relationships with the regions. Oh yes, I had a story I was going to 00:56:49.489 --> 00:56:54.517 tell you and I forgot when I first came here, the very first year they had 00:56:54.550 --> 00:57:00.017 already created the uh commission on the status of women so I couldn't be 00:57:00.050 --> 00:57:04.497 appointed to it because ASU already had its representatives but as I said 00:57:04.530 --> 00:57:08.416 I was a bit of a data analyst so they appointed me to be uh the data 00:57:08.449 --> 00:57:11.655 analyst for the commission on the Status of Women which let me go all the 00:57:11.688 --> 00:57:18.517 time and the chair of the regions was the chair of. Uh, the study 00:57:18.550 --> 00:57:24.106 commission on studies status of women. And in the very first meeting he 00:57:24.139 --> 00:57:29.885 kept talking about the university. The university, the university, and I 00:57:29.918 --> 00:57:35.126 figured out later he was talking about the University of Arizona 00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:40.006 and he was president of the Regents at the time and later, uh, I heard, I 00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:44.885 don't think it was a regent but someone referred to that college in Tempe. 00:57:44.918 --> 00:57:49.856 They were referring to ASU. So in terms of regents, that was my first 00:57:49.889 --> 00:57:54.287 introduction to the Regents. Then there were some women, uh, named to, uh 00:57:54.320 --> 00:57:59.986 , the the regents, and I did know some of them reasonably well and one of 00:58:00.019 --> 00:58:03.865 them was from Tucson was a good friend of my colleague Helen Ingram in 00:58:03.898 --> 00:58:09.316 Tucson, so I knew some of the women and some of the some of the. Uh, but 00:58:09.349 --> 00:58:13.436 no, I didn't you ever know Andy Hurwitz well, not well, but he was, his 00:58:13.469 --> 00:58:19.756 wife was a student of mine, so he was active. He was active in the, uh, 00:58:19.789 --> 00:58:24.517 John Frank. We had a the John Frank lecture series. We had a an advisory 00:58:24.550 --> 00:58:31.517 committee that included Janet Napolitano, Andy Hurwitz, uh. Uh, Mary 00:58:31.550 --> 00:58:37.885 Schroeder, who was on the US Supreme Court, I mean this stars sparkling 00:58:37.918 --> 00:58:42.006 group, so I met some of them as part of the John Frank thing, but I didn't 00:58:42.039 --> 00:58:46.365 have much contact with because Andy was on Aor when you came because I 00:58:46.398 --> 00:58:51.655 remember that he was on ABor when they hired Lattie. You know, yeah, I I 00:58:51.688 --> 00:58:55.336 do, I remember that vividly because I tried to remember the guy's name who 00:58:55.369 --> 00:58:59.186 who kept talking about the university. He was in Tucson. It was kind of 00:58:59.219 --> 00:59:03.945 funny. Well, ASU remains the only university in the United States that was 00:59:03.978 --> 00:59:07.345 became a university by popular vote, right? And another thing I was gonna 00:59:07.378 --> 00:59:12.747 say in terms of how ASU has changed, I, I really think ASU has been 00:59:12.780 --> 00:59:19.615 embraced by the Phoenix metropolitan area. And that happened was when when 00:59:19.648 --> 00:59:24.736 Lattie came that that it was no longer that college in Tempe, it was 00:59:24.769 --> 00:59:31.126 really embraced by the city of Phoenix itself uh and then of course having 00:59:31.159 --> 00:59:36.135 paved the way with when Michael came he could cut this deal uh with the 00:59:36.168 --> 00:59:42.296 mayor for that huge, uh, bond issue that would pay to actually start a 00:59:42.329 --> 00:59:49.247 quality downtown program. And I, I really hand it to Michael for uh that 00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:54.405 he got he did that most downtown campuses of major universities are not 00:59:54.438 --> 00:59:59.925 very good. Most of them are not very good they're the they're the shove 00:59:59.958 --> 01:00:05.086 offs from the main main campus and Michael, you know, made sure with that 01:00:05.119 --> 01:00:09.776 bond issue that there would be money for downtown. Downtown is really 01:00:09.809 --> 01:00:14.365 prospered under Michael. Well, part of the Phoenix embracing it though is 01:00:14.398 --> 01:00:20.236 that. ASU Deserve to be, yeah, and it has changed. I mean, it used to be 01:00:20.269 --> 01:00:26.256 as a, as an old-time Arizona friend of mine, a native Arizona said to me. 01:00:26.289 --> 01:00:31.175 Who is a graduate of ASU? ASU is where working class kids went. The 01:00:31.208 --> 01:00:35.296 middle upper middle class and rich kids, if they didn't go to Stanford, 01:00:35.329 --> 01:00:40.017 they went to UFA, and that those were the people who ran the legislature 01:00:40.050 --> 01:00:43.856 and everything else. ASU was where working class kids went. We were really 01:00:43.889 --> 01:00:49.936 proud of, uh, the another thing Laddie did I thought was was important he. 01:00:49.969 --> 01:00:55.885 Convinced ASU faculty uh and students and alums to be proud of our 01:00:55.918 --> 01:01:00.977 heritage. We were not the land grant university. We were not the liberal 01:01:01.010 --> 01:01:05.796 arts university. We were a teacher's college that was not a plus in 01:01:05.829 --> 01:01:12.497 academic circles, but Lattie taught us really to be proud of our history 01:01:12.530 --> 01:01:18.217 and that I think was an important step for ASU. This is one of the few. 01:01:18.250 --> 01:01:23.086 Major universities that started out as a teacher's college as did UCLA, 01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:28.615 um, UCLA started as a normal school. I didn't know that. Yeah, um, I, one 01:01:28.648 --> 01:01:33.856 of my graduate students did her PhD on Tempe normal and it's evolution. It 01:01:33.889 --> 01:01:38.655 was certainly the stepchild to Berkeley. always. My son's a graduate of 01:01:38.688 --> 01:01:44.416 UCLA, so, but it, it did start as a normal school actually. Good Good 01:01:44.449 --> 01:01:48.227 thank you thank you is there anything else you wanna know? No, I'm just 01:01:48.260 --> 01:01:54.280 kidding. Before you get away, I wanna take you down and show you.