This is for Solis interviewing Marie Buck Hutchison. Cherie, Cherie. Good
God, but you got Hutchison right.
That's all my attention with Cherie Buck Hutchison, um, for Creative Push
project on September 19th at 1:30.
So are we recording? Good. So actually she's just going to check levels,
and while she's doing that, I'll talk a little bit about the process. So
that you're probably a good distance, maybe to be a little closer, you may
want to scoot your chair in, um, and when you're speaking to try to, you
know, direct your comments towards me or the microphone but not move your
head while you're saying things, you know, the voice will go in and out,
which you're a pro at this so. Um, I will be asking questions, but they'll
all get edited out. So if you could kind of pause a minute. No, bring the
question into your response that'd be great. So if I say, did you gain a
lot of weight during that pregnancy instead of saying yes, it's unusable.
I gained a lot of weight that I didn't end or whatever instead of yes and
no answers. Yeah, exactly.
And because a lot of the editing is going to happen, just find comfort in
the pauses. You can collect your thoughts, um. You know, anything like
that. If you remember something, but it's out of order, that's fine. You
can say, Oh, I remember this, and we'll just put it back in order. Let's
see, paint a picture, describe events visually or sensory, you know, think
about sounds or smells or you know anything, feelings, just to really
transport the artist and transport the listener, you know. into the space
and the focus is more labor and delivery versus pregnancy. Yeah, but we're
going back as far as the conception to the pregnancy. So we like to know
how the pregnancy went, you know what I mean? So what your experience was
with the pregnancy, um, yeah, so that's been a part of it. It did affect
the delivery location, so yeah, we're going to talk about that. Um, and I
think that's it. Ashley's going to be taking notes, but they're just for
editing purposes, so just, you know, ignore it. Um, any questions? Um, my
only question is that I have 4.
Plus I have a grandmother that was a midwife and so there's this wisdom
that was passed through. So I don't know. I don't know that you're gonna
have enough time today and so I don't know if you want to just Um, have me
summarize each four real quick and have you choose which you you want to
prioritize or should you say chronological. We need to cover all four
births if you, um, if there's 1 or 2 that really stands out in your mind,
um. OK, you know, but if not, we can we can definitely do all four from
beginning to end. I don't think you're going to have time. No, but we can
reschedule that. OK, yeah, I mean, if you know off the top of your head
which births you like. I think there were 2 that stood out more, I would
say, than
just in terms of uniqueness and variety for your goals. That sounds great.
That sounds great as long as you're comfortable with that. Um, and again
, this is a long project. It's over the length of a year, so we can record
the other stories too at a later date, you know. So it's not a rush or
anything. Yeah, well, I just don't know don't know what you have and what
you want your composite to look like. I just want to be sensitive to
because sometimes you know my mother felt bad because she didn't say as
much about my brother's birth as she said about,
you know what I mean? So I want to make to do they're going to have to get
over. All right, excellent. We're on the same page. OK. So, um, OK, well,
just to make sure that the audio is set up, why don't you just give us,
tell us a little bit about yourself? OK, I'm Cherie Buck Hutchison. I'm an
artist in North Phoenix, uh.
Let's see, I went to 3rd Friday last night. Are we good? OK. So, um, We're
going to be talking about two births, right? Um, maybe take us back to try
to keep them separate. I know it's hard to not compare a lot, um, but if
you can take us back as far back with the first one as you can remember,
so you know. Was it planned? So my first child was not planned. Um, I
think we've been married about 2 years is all and um. It was in the 70s,
so the hippie thing was still going on. The, you know, Studio 54 scene
hadn't really hit yet. It was just about to, but you know, natural
childbirth was huge. And so, um.
During the pregnancy, my father had fallen ill, um, developed cancer and
died, and I started miscarrying at about 5 months. So I was considered a
high risk pregnancy, so I had to have the baby in the hospital. And Um,
the birth actually went pretty well, the delivery, uh, not really a lot of
complications.
Even though I was high risk, so can you, uh, give us more information
because that this sounds really interesting, so I'm confused you at at 5
months you started bleeding at and then they put you on bed they put me on
bed rest,
um, hips above the shoulders. They gave me a pill. Well, first they wanted
me to get an abortion. Um, because the pill, if I ended up having a girl,
they said she would be, um, she would not develop at puberty. And so they
really encouraged an abortion, which at 5 months is kind of pretty far in
and I didn't want to do that and so he said, well, you better hope you
have a boy. So, um, I didn't. I had a girl, so her whole life we were
waiting for her to hit puberty and see what would happen, but she's fine.
And so that didn't manifest. Uh there was a point in time where we had to
tell her this might happen to you. Well that wasn't very fun, um, but the
pill did stop me from miscarrying, um, I think it was Provera and um. So
you know, I carried her to term and went into labor naturally, it wasn't
induced. And had her at the hospital.
So, um, when you, I mean, you must have really complicated emotions about
this, because a lot of times there's this excitement and anticipation and
Um, well, it was, um, kind of sad time period, so I was grieving while I
was pregnant for a while there, um.
Yeah.
My dad really loved kids and so. That was gonna be the the grandchild he
was really looking forward to seeing him, he didn't get to see her. Or or
any of my kids for that matter, so that part was hard, um.
You know, I guess time helps you move on and so. Um,
I got through it. I got through it and um.
I think I was just happy to to carry her to term and then when she was
born, she was so healthy. That was happy. Moment and um I I wanted a girl
, so I was happy about that too. And
Um, she, the, the, the treatment I got during the birth wasn't great. Um,
they weren't really used to anyone not taking drugs at the hospital. They
weren't used to natural childbirth, they
Didn't, I don't feel like I was treated very humanely as a woman by a lot
of male doctors. And um it was overall a pretty negative experience during
the labor and delivery because of that.
Uh, and then After that, the baby got sick. Can you elaborate a little bit
more on on the treatment or what the standard was well that's what it was
is it was the the treatment was the standard at the time um you were just
expected to put up with these things that were kind of dehumanizing and
and give them your money to treat you that way and I think that now they
treat women. A lot better and with a lot more respect. I would say there
was a big lack of respect. Um, it was pretty standard to give women an
enema. Um, shave them completely.
They my water had broken the night and so we went on into the hospital and
I went into labor on the drive to the hospital. And um they needed to see
something in under the microscope and the doctor couldn't see it and so he
accused me of it just being urine instead of having my water broke and you
know the. The tone of voice was really derogatory, I would say, you know,
how do you know you didn't just pee? And it was just rude and that kind of
set the tenor and it just went from there. I would ask for certain
procedures not to be done that I felt were not good for me, not good for
the baby. The drugs they gave at the time transferred to the baby, um,
epidurals really weren't. Part of the scene, just a few of my friends had
had shots. One of them was paralyzed for 2 years after she had been given
an epidural shot. So I, I didn't want to do that. Um, first child had no
idea what to expect. And um They labored for about 12 hours. There was a
woman having twins in the next room. She was screaming, Holy Mother Mary,
the entire 12 hours, and she was on drugs. So I don't know how much of the
drugs even helped her, but it really didn't help my peace of mind. Um, you
know, the monitor, internal, external, all of that.
And then they kept coming in to observe me because they thought it was so
unusual that I was having a natural childbirth. And they made me stay on
my back. Well I had back labor the whole time. I didn't have stomach labor.
That's the worst thing for back labor. And um so yeah I was thrilled when
it was time to push. how did you get through it? I mean, what was your
process? How did you prepare um we had gone to breathing classes, Lamas
and um. That's what I did. I did the breathing and then my, my hubby
stayed in there with me the whole time. He really strong hands thankfully
, and he had put them under my back and he would squeeze when I would tell
him it was starting. And that really helped me to. To deal with it, both
the combo of the two. And so I was able to do it. And um let's see, do
they let you go on your side at least? No. And you know what I've got a,
I've got a sniffle. Sorry, I have a Kleenex here. I just, I've got one. I
just, uh, I don't wanna sniff in the. I know better, no sniffing.
Thank you. Sure.
So Let's see. Were they telling you not to complain,
or yeah, it's just highly unusual, so we'd like to observe you. OK, I
really didn't want people, you know, with a gallery setting, you know, it
was like surgery theater and uh you know, just watching me. It was weird.
They got bored and left. Were they looking at your vagina? No, they were
just, I was in labor in a labor room and um they were just watching me
breathe and Um, they got bored and quit observing me, really. There was
nothing exciting to watch. And you know, the baby was doing fine, so that
that part was OK. Um, after I had her, I started shaking really badly and.
The same person, the head nurse that had been observing me, uh, she's
like, well, how are you doing? She came back in to observe some more, I
guess. And I said, well, I'm shaking, I can't quit shaking. And she's like
, well, you need to stop that. That's psychological, and you're gonna get
constipation from it. And I thought that was just so weird. I'm like, oh
well, let me just stop my body from shaking right now. I, you know, it's
not something I intentionally brought on. So how could I intentionally
take it away? Uh, but it would you know it was that whole respect thing of
just, you know, you're somebody that. I I felt like I was just a part of
this treadmill birth process and you were supposed to accept it. Um, When
I had her, they take you into the labor room. And
I was really surprised to see these big leather straps. And you put your
feet in the stirrups. All right, well that, you know, maybe your foot will
slip out or something, but then your arms get strapped in and they were
really probably 8 inches long and really heavy leather with buckles and I
looked at the nurse and I said. What are these for? And she's like, oh, we
have to strap you down, like almost apologetic.
And I said why? And she said, well, you know, some women get violent. And
I looked at her and I go, I'm not on drugs. There's no reason. I'm not
going to hurt anyone. I just need to have this baby right now. She's like
, I know, I'm sorry. And then she strapped my arms down. And so it was
really just the whole thing was demeaning. It was, it was a rough
experience. Um, I asked the doctor not to cut me, and he completely
ignored what I said and did it anyway. And We actually had a lawsuit
settled out of court. And uh yeah, that was my great story, but then the
baby came out just healthy and beautiful and you know, you're so happy in
that moment. So, um, that part, you know, of course, is great because
she's healthy. Um, she was sick and developed a failure to thrive, spend.
From the time she was 2 to 4 months old in the hospital, 4 weeks in
intensive care. And that was really, really awful. Um,
And I, I don't know if it's related to the birth experience or not. There
were a couple other babies with the same problem. Um, she did get well and
thrive and doing great today. But it was just, yeah, a lot of. Weird stuff
, a weird birth and so um it kind of soured me to the whole hospital
experience. And you know, the whole point of having natural childbirth was
to have control and I felt like I wasn't given very much control. I wasn't
, my wishes weren't respected and um I didn't have any more hospital
births after that.
Did she? That's actually a great ending. Did she, um, your daughter, did
she nurse? Or tell me about when you heard the cry and then what the
process was after that. Um, well, it was my first baby, so I really didn't
know how to nurse or, you know, you read and you try to understand and not
like there was YouTube or anything back then. There was a, a league. The
Ley league and those women were great and they would help you, but I mean
you had to kind of already go through the. Hospital thing before you could
even get to that point. There was a like now a woman comes and she's an
expert and helps you. And there wasn't any of that. So, um, they take the
baby pretty quickly away from you back then, so I really didn't get to
spend much time with her. I, I made them bring her to me and put her on my
chest cause I had read about that. Um, but then they took her and put her
in the nursery. We really didn't like that, so my husband burst in the
nursery and held her and got yelled at and kicked out, but we still got to
hold our baby. Um So then I don't know, a couple hours later you're in a
room at that point and they bring you your baby and. You're on your own.
Oh, and then after 9 at night. You go down to the infant nursery to nurse
the baby, and there wasn't any privacy and so I was in there as a rookie
with all these women who already knew how to nurse their babies, knew what
nightgown to bring, which I had a hospital thing on and. You know, how do
you nurse a baby with a gown that ties in the back and there was just no
help. And so it was frustrating and um it kind of got off to a rough start
there. And then, um,
Were the women supportive? No, they weren't. They were all just kind of,
they'd all had 2 or 3 kids and it was old shoe to them and. They were all
sitting around talking with each other. I think they'd been in there maybe
a day before me and I was the new kid and. Um, I was just kind of in there
trying to figure it out on my own and so I went down there a couple times
during the night and I think by morning things were getting a little
better and then they bring you the baby and it was still a rough first day
of just learning how to do all that and every time the baby nurse you'd
bleed more. You're walking, you know, back and forth down the hall and
you're worrying and and just. It wasn't nurturing. It wasn't comforting.
It wasn't helpful. It was very institutional, very cold, sterile. And um
Just wasn't a good experience for me. Other than I, I love my daughter. I
got a baby out of it. How many days were you? Was it was the norm to be in
the house 3 days. Yeah, couldn't wait to go home. And um, so your husband
was at the birth, right, and he was doing all the breathing with you and
squeezing my back mostly. I mean a certain point it was just me breathing
in my own head I think counting just to get my mind somewhere else. It
must have been hard for him to see you go through that experience to be
diminished like that. I think some of the things that happened, he wasn't
in the room with me, um, and then some of them. You know, he was young. I
was 20, he was 22. And we didn't know what the process was, and they treat
you like you're weird if you question anything. And Um, I think at a
certain point when he burst into the nursery, I think he was just done
with their their process and their way of doing things. We had just had it
at that point. So it was um. Definitely a learning curve.
So she was, so you were in the hospital for 3 days and then they kept her
for longer. No, I took her home for a month and then I would take her to
the pediatrician and she wasn't gaining weight. So she was almost 8 pounds
when she was born and um when I put her in the hospital, she was less than
8 pounds. She was a month old, she was 7 something, but she had grown
inches. And she just wasn't doing well. She had diarrhea, she failure to
thrive. Um she was hungry, she was nursing constantly, just wasn't getting.
What she needed or or just, you know, it was going through her. Um, They
did do a long lengthy process and it was really scary. um I mean the
diagnostic thing itself was horrific, you know, they call you in the
middle of the night. Well, we think your baby has spinal meningitis, we
want to do a spinal tap. Can you give us permission on the phone? And it's
, you know, 2 in the morning we're like, well, we'll come down, you know,
well, no, go back to sleep. Things like that, just weird, and, uh, you
know, how can you sleep after something like that. And it wasn't that,
thankfully, and you know, while you're there, I, I was there for two
months watching other babies get sick, watching children die, watching
horrible things happen. Um, your baby's in a crib next to a baby that's in
a terrible place and that baby's staring at you. You know, like almost
asking you for help. It's, it's horrible thing to watch and. Um, I, I'm
sure there's a lot of nurse turnover rate with those kind of jobs just
because it's hard. And so every time they would think it was something I
would freak out because I had just seen a kid die from that. And so I was
really glad when it wasn't spinal meningitis as I had seen some really
really sad stories and all the families heartbreak, it was really
heartbreaking. Um,
So what they did is they finally decided to let her intestines rest. And
they um gave her an IV. She'd run out of places, so they had called and
they wanted permission to enter the juggler vein. Which is a high risk of
infection and I have seen babies get that as well. And so um we had given
it because they couldn't find a vein but they decided to wait until
morning. Um, but during this time they had been, um, just using all her
veins to just feed her intravenously, no oral food. And the next morning
she took a slight, perhaps turn for the better, and so they said, well,
let's let's wait, let's not do the juggler if we don't have to. And then
she started getting well. And that took about 3 weeks of just letting her
little intestines heal, but she had lost the lining to her intestines from
all the diarrhea. And um So but that was, she was about 3 months old, 3 to
4 months old. She got better, she came home. Um, I took her back in when
she was 6 months old and she was just this fat, healthy baby that they
didn't even recognize that she gained 18 pounds in one month. Once she got
over her problem, which we still don't really know exactly what it was. So
, um, I know in the end, it, it, you know, it turned out OK. Everything
turned out OK.
Wow, she must have been when she was having all that diarrhea, it must
have been quite painful. Just screaming, screaming and nursing and
screaming and. Oh Uh, yeah, and messy and there was cloth diapers back
then and you know the Pampers or I shouldn't say brand name, edit.
The store bought diapers, um, they didn't have the elastic around the legs.
They weren't as effective. A cloth diaper actually was better. But then
when it's that kind of a situation, it's just absorbing right into the
fiber and actually some friends got together and bought me a diaper
service during that time and that was great cause we were just ripping
through them. And yeah, you know, you go to a restaurant and then this
would happen and you had to leave and it was just it was messy and. Scary
, it was scary cause she was sick and she wasn't getting well. And then,
oh, all of a sudden you, you're going for a pediatric checkup and they say
, well, we want to put your baby in the hospital today. You're like, today
? Yeah, I'll, I'll meet you over there, be there by 5. It's like.
Worse than I thought. So, a lot of um Experience right off the bat with
the first child that made the other ones seem a lot easier. It it just
didn't go as harshly.
Yeah, that's, that's, you've been through a lot. I mean, that was a lot to
go through. It was, especially after just losing my dad. My mom was
grieving, she's a new widow, all that. I was trying to help her I think in
a way it was good because it kind of kept her busy helping me.
You know, in a sick way, um, that happens sometimes.
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It was really intense
and really eye opening, you know, talking about a different era of
birthing, and you were right at the cusp, right? You know like that late
60s, 70s, yeah, that was mid 70s.
And I think, I'm not sure when the birthing center started, but I think a
lot of women had stories like mine or similar that um we just all quit
using hospitals because we weren't being treated very nicely and They had
to do something to get us back in there. The midwives didn't cost near as
much, I think. Well, that's another birth story, but not too many years
after that, my midwife only charged $200. I mean she went up in time, but
back then that's what it cost and the hospital was thousands still and so
economically, I think some women also chose that, but for me I wanted
control of my own situation. And so yeah, I moved away from the
institutionalized process and and I think there was just this whole wave
of people that did it and then the birthing centers developed as a result
of that as an outlying and they act like it's. This nurturing experience,
but if you've ever been in a birth room, it turns into an operating room
very rapidly. I think we can go ahead and get into the second story. Do
you need a time stamp or anything? Are you good or good? Are you
comfortable to start talking about that?
I'm gonna go to my 3rd child. Um, and you can say this is my 3rd.
Think back because I haven't thought about this so much. And again, think
it back as far as you can with that third birth, you know. You know, were
you planning on having a 3rd child.
any of them.
Um, let's see.
No, I didn't plan my third child. Um, I had already had a boy and a girl.
I thought, you know, nuclear family, I'm good with that. Um, but then I, I
did get pregnant again about 3 years later, and. So we went ahead and had
her, um, let's see.
I used a midwife, um, she's pretty well known in the Phoenix metropolitan
area. Um, I found out about her through my niece who had had a baby with
her and I was in attendance at that birth and I thought she was very
respectful. And treated women very kindly. Um, at the time we lived in an
outlying area and we were about a half hour away from any hospitals and so
the midwife wouldn't come to us. She wanted us to come in to Phoenix and
be within 5 minutes of a hospital.
So for that child, um, we found a. It was a motel, it was a motel room. It
was across a small street off from her office so I happened to go in labor
on a day when she was having appointments and so she would just walk over
and check on me. In my labor process, um, in between her appointments. And
um it was right off the I-17. I drive by there and. I just can't help but
have these thoughts when I drive by there and see that. Um, it was a
kitchenette and so we, we got 2 units, so I was with my husband in the one
and then my mother took my two older kids. Next door, so they were um at
the birth, but they didn't have to just sit there and stare. And she took
him swimming and different things while I was laboring. Um, the midwife
came over at the end of her day.
Maybe by noon she was over there, um, she had a midwife assistant with her
, and they both just kind of hung out at the table and. Um, checked me
periodically. I was able to walk around. I didn't have to lay on my back
or I, I could just do whatever was comfortable for me, and that was really
great. Um
Let's see. We thought I'd have the baby by noon, so we were all kind of
taking wagers on what time the baby would be born at. Things went really
well, very smoothly. Um,
Except it was somebody said 10 o'clock, 10 o'clock in the morning, the
baby was not there. So, well for sure by noon. 11 o'clock came. I I
dilated quite a bit, but the baby wasn't there. By noon, the baby wasn't
there. So, oh, for sure, 1:30, and the baby still wasn't there. So we
started to get concerned and um. About 2:30, I think. She realized I'm
completely dilated at the. The shoulder was presenting first. And so, um,
she said, you know, you're gonna, I, I think I was at the foot of the bed
and there was a person, my husband, and the midwife was pushing on one of
my feet, or just, you know, helping me to have something to push against.
And it just wasn't gonna work and so she said, I need you to stand up on
the bed right now. And so, you know, you're gonna have to have this baby
standing up. I'm sorry, but we've got to get this baby out now. So I did,
but all of a sudden I started shaking really tremendously, very, very
strongly and um. I don't know why. But my husband had to hold me up. I
just could not hold myself up and push. And I I felt strong. That was the
weird part is I felt like a very strong person and I could do this, but.
My body did not want to cooperate. So and and I was drug free. Although it
probably was similar to if you were on drugs and not able to control your
own body, but um. That worked, that worked, so I had her completely
standing up. Did they reposition her inside you or do anything or she just
did I just um. She must have pushed her up a little bit and all my kids
were born Sunnyside up. So got her to where the head would come first, and
then things went pretty good after that. Um, yeah.
So then after she was born, sat on the edge of the bed and delivered the
placenta. And the placenta was huge. It was really big and um she had
never seen one that big. I was, I was pretty big pregnant, so I can
imagine that and the baby was 8 pounds 5 ounces in addition. So now we're
in a motel and we need to dispose of these things. So the placenta is in a
a metal bowl. And so my husband takes it and just throws it in a dumpster
outside the back of the motel. And a couple hours go by and he realizes
that it looks like a crime scene. And birth is bloody. It's a very bloody
thing. So he goes back and fishes it out and puts it in a bag and then
throws it out again. And I said, well, go throw a bunch more trash on top
there, otherwise we're gonna have some sort of weird investigation, and I
don't really want that today. I'd like to bond with my baby.
And, and so it, it, it was OK. It was just a weird side point. Did the
hotel or the motel know that that's what was happening? Were you making
noises? was breathing There was a newborn crying all night. But because it
was a suite and it was larger, I think that helped. Um, My mother brought
my two other kids over right as it was time to deliver. So one was 6 and
one was 3. And the 6 year old had seen the 3-year-old born. And so she was
kind of laying on the floor with her head kind of held up by her arm and
She's like, could you hurry up, please? I want to go swimming. So it was
no big deal to her and so um I think she took him. Out and then back in
again cause.
I had to stand up and we thought, well, this might be traumatic. So then
we brought him back in right after she was born. And uh That helped the 3
year old get ready for next year when there was another birth. So, um,
they know what to expect. Is your daughter that you were mentioning, is
that is that the 3 year old or the 3 year old was my son. So my, my
daughter, my oldest daughter was 6. My son was 3 when I had the third
child. Does it prepare your daughters to see, do you only have one
daughter? I have 3 daughters. Are they, were they more prepared for their
own, for their own delivery? I think she was. I think she was, um. I don't
know, you have to ask her. But I certainly knew what to expect. Yeah, your
whole youth really, you're kind of preparing for that experience and then
I attended a lot of other women's births after I had had, you know, all my
kids. I had 3 at home, so then she was. I was a person. I was a go to
person for a long time for friends that were having babies or women maybe.
Um, you know, 10 years younger than me that were having their first child
and wanted someone there that also knew what it was like, so had a lot of
that, had a home birth in my bedroom, someone else's.
Do you keep in touch with those women? Are they local?
I'll have to give you some cards with them, um. One is in California, one
is local. And she had one at home, yeah, she had a, a heavy story, so yeah
, she might be definitely somebody you'd like to talk to. um, so I'm gonna
ask you that really hard question reflecting on these birth experiences,
um, and not not to think of it as like summarizing them, but just, you
know, when you think back on these experiences, somehow we attribute
meaning to them, you know, if you can think about. What they've meant to
you or um the experiences surprised you, if there's anything surprising
about them or.
Hm, anything surprising, well, I guess. At that time, you know, everything
, you know, was just right at the end of the hippie movement and so
everything was supposed to be natural and go well. A lot of people, the
dads were delivering the babies. They didn't even want midwives. Um,
people were making placenta stew after the birth and celebrating, um. We
didn't go that far, but we did plan it with a tree over, um, for the ones
that um we could, obviously the motel one, we didn't. Um,
So it was surprising when things would go wrong, I think. Um, it was also
nice when something did go wrong but it was able to be handled naturally.
So you know, a simple solution instead of a C-section to stand up and have
the baby. Um, you know, the women were just fabulous to work with. They
were. You know, a part of my life, a big connection, and I stayed in touch.
I called him back when I got pregnant again, you know, they were
definitely my go to people. I think that um
Having moved from a very clinical. The situation, um, into a situation I
chose was more of a personal journey and taking back control and I um. I
think I relate to that. And um I'm not sorry, not one bit sorry I did.
That's good, that was excellent. I love the idea of personal journey too.
I think that was really lovely, yeah. Yeah, that's great. And ownership of
your experience and Um, you know, it's interesting.