WEBVTT 00:00:00.029 --> 00:00:03.967 It's fun. It's been a long time. We took a month off. This is Boris Elise 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:12.000 interviewing Tara Guthrie on August 11th at 2 p.m. All right, so we can go 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:17.887 ahead and get started. OK, so maybe think back to those things that you 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:22.506 were just talking about. I was born and raised in Mesa, Arizona. I lived 00:00:22.539 --> 00:00:26.756 here my whole life. You know, you grow up as a little girl thinking I'm 00:00:26.789 --> 00:00:30.866 gonna get married and I'm gonna have the baby and you know, I'm gonna have 00:00:30.899 --> 00:00:35.906 to be a little housewife and and do the child rearing and, and my life um 00:00:35.939 --> 00:00:42.366 did not turn out that way at all, Neither did my pregnancy. It was um Not 00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:47.167 expected. It was not planned. I was not even I was with my high school 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:52.487 sweetheart and um it was after we graduated from high school and we were 00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:59.265 not exactly living a desirable life. I was a methamphetamine addict and I 00:00:59.298 --> 00:01:07.298 , I know the day that I conceived my daughter um because my um. The father 00:01:07.859 --> 00:01:10.587 of my child and I, we didn't like each other too much. I mean there was a 00:01:10.620 --> 00:01:15.826 lot of violence and arguments and it was just not a, it wasn't a savory 00:01:15.859 --> 00:01:22.007 lifestyle. And but I remember the day she was conceived and as I look back 00:01:22.040 --> 00:01:26.025 , I did not, however, 00:01:26.058 --> 00:01:30.566 know that I was pregnant until I was 4 months pregnant. So, and I went 00:01:30.599 --> 00:01:35.805 through the. When I look back, I saw the, I did have the morning sickness 00:01:35.838 --> 00:01:41.415 . I did have the cravings. I had the exhaustion. And I just thought, and I 00:01:41.448 --> 00:01:44.826 , my drug use actually cut down because I didn't feel good and I was 00:01:44.859 --> 00:01:49.206 sleeping a lot. So that was the only reason why that happened, but, and 4 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:55.846 months later, I felt a little flutter. In my in my tummy. And I thought 00:01:55.879 --> 00:02:00.206 Either my kidneys are falling out or I am pregnant. That was my thought. 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:04.766 So I did a pregnancy test and I was pregnant and I was, I went to the 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:09.106 doctor and I was 4 months pregnant. So that's where it all began. So what 00:02:09.139 --> 00:02:13.146 was it about the conception part that you knew that you would conceive 00:02:13.179 --> 00:02:18.946 like at that time? We had not been um intimate, we had not been in 00:02:18.979 --> 00:02:24.967 intimate in months. So we were too busy doing. Recreational drugs. So, and 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:31.267 I remember saying it, I was like, hey, Norman, come here. So, and I 00:02:31.300 --> 00:02:33.946 remember that, I, I remember that day clearly. So that had been, that was 00:02:33.979 --> 00:02:38.606 , that had been the only day. There was no other day. That's interesting. 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:44.846 Mhm. Um, can you think back to the pregnancy? Was there anything that 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:50.047 maybe an event or a time of year or something to kind of paint the picture 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:54.916 of that time when you were pregnant and, um, you know, what your physical 00:02:54.949 --> 00:02:59.805 experiences were too. I remember it was hot and I was, I was underweight 00:02:59.838 --> 00:03:03.886 and I was a severe smoker. I remember sitting outside, I remember smoking 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:09.577 cigarettes. Um, I had gotten sober at that point. Um, cause, you know, I, 00:03:09.610 --> 00:03:12.775 that was the right thing to do. So, and I remember sitting out in the heat 00:03:12.808 --> 00:03:15.335 a lot having a cigarette because I wouldn't smoke in the house. I had 00:03:15.368 --> 00:03:21.555 moved back in with my parents. It was very stressful. It was very, um, 00:03:21.588 --> 00:03:29.136 It was sad. It was a very sad time in my life. It was a very Disappointing 00:03:29.169 --> 00:03:33.775 time in my life because I had disappointed my parents. I was an unwed 00:03:33.808 --> 00:03:39.995 mother. I was getting sober and. Mm, they, no one in my family believed in 00:03:40.028 --> 00:03:44.406 , you know, marriage or pregnancy outside of marriage. So there was a lot 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:48.036 , it was a very painful time in my life because I had disappointed 00:03:48.069 --> 00:03:54.656 everybody. I was scared, um. My baby's father left, so I was very alone. 00:03:54.689 --> 00:04:00.055 It was one of the most um alone times in my life. That was one of the, I 00:04:00.088 --> 00:04:05.457 think that was the most alone time in my life ever. It's amazing to me 00:04:05.490 --> 00:04:08.775 because most women, when they're pregnant, they're dealing with the 00:04:08.808 --> 00:04:13.136 pregnancy and that's an overwhelming experience period. But then to deal 00:04:13.169 --> 00:04:19.575 with the pregnancy stuff and the um recovery part of drug addiction, I 00:04:19.608 --> 00:04:24.226 mean, how did you handle that? I mean, what were the, what was that like? 00:04:24.259 --> 00:04:30.705 I think when I look back on it, I was in a zone. I was in my own little 00:04:30.738 --> 00:04:34.217 cocoon, my own little world. It's like the whole world was spinning, kept 00:04:34.250 --> 00:04:39.217 rotating, and mine was stopped. It was absolutely stopped, and I had no 00:04:39.250 --> 00:04:45.697 idea what to expect. I had no one to talk to. I didn't know what to do. 00:04:45.730 --> 00:04:50.596 And so I, I got a little job and I was cutting hair. 00:04:50.629 --> 00:04:55.895 And that's what I did. I just went to my little job and I'm, I, um. 00:04:55.928 --> 00:05:02.486 I just kept on going. So you know you mentioned your parents, um, you know 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:06.546 , feeling that they might be disappointed, but they must have been so 00:05:06.579 --> 00:05:13.265 proud of you to have gotten clean and kept the baby and they, there's a 00:05:13.298 --> 00:05:19.726 kick there. They did not um It wasn't 00:05:19.759 --> 00:05:24.906 And a a a great thing like oh terra sober, it was um. It was one of those 00:05:24.939 --> 00:05:29.627 things where everyone pretended like wasn't didn't never happened. Never 00:05:29.660 --> 00:05:33.906 happened and my grandparents were pushing for um for me to um either abort 00:05:33.939 --> 00:05:37.676 or or put the baby for adoption. 00:05:37.709 --> 00:05:42.197 So I had a lot of pressure from different people in my family. My mom 00:05:42.230 --> 00:05:45.955 wanted me to keep it. My dad was stuck in the middle. My brother hated my 00:05:45.988 --> 00:05:50.197 guts because I had left him, I had left the house at a very vulnerable 00:05:50.230 --> 00:05:54.717 time in his in his life, he was 14 when I moved out, so he felt like I had 00:05:54.750 --> 00:06:01.805 abandoned him. So I was, I was by myself. I was very alone. 00:06:01.838 --> 00:06:04.887 How was your um home life with your parents? Was that a strong 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:07.007 relationship? 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:11.926 I was, I fought a lot with my mother because we were a lot alike, very 00:06:11.959 --> 00:06:15.687 different, but a lot alike. Um, my father was always at work, you know, 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:19.245 the traditional my mom stayed home, my dad worked all the time. So and I 00:06:19.278 --> 00:06:22.325 was kind of the rebel, you know, they would say, don't do this, and I 00:06:22.358 --> 00:06:26.627 would have to run out and try it, so. 00:06:26.660 --> 00:06:34.106 Yeah, but I understand that, um. So Let's see, let's think back. So you 00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:39.995 were 4 months pregnant when you found out you were pregnant, is that right 00:06:40.028 --> 00:06:46.796 ? Yes, I was 4 months pregnant when I found out. OK. And then you, um, 00:06:46.829 --> 00:06:51.637 broke up with the boyfriend. My boyfriend, he abandoned me. He just found 00:06:51.670 --> 00:06:57.916 out. He just never came home. He just never came home. So my parents came 00:06:57.949 --> 00:07:01.717 and got me from my apartment. I did not want to leave my apartment because 00:07:01.750 --> 00:07:06.637 I knew it was gonna be painful. I knew I was gonna be by myself. I mean, I 00:07:06.670 --> 00:07:11.086 was there, I had people around me, but I was very much alone. 00:07:11.119 --> 00:07:16.705 So at that point you moved in with your folks and um you know you got 00:07:16.738 --> 00:07:23.486 clean and I just kind of took care of your body, you know, and is changing 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:27.825 stages and my mother would pack me my lunches. She's a, she's a food 00:07:27.858 --> 00:07:31.507 nutritionalist, so she would pack me my lunches. I'd go to my little job. 00:07:31.540 --> 00:07:37.366 I probably gained. About 1720 pounds, but you could not tell I was 00:07:37.399 --> 00:07:43.086 pregnant at all. And I did not go to full term pregnancy. I had my 00:07:43.119 --> 00:07:47.717 daughter 2.5 months after I found out I was pregnant. So it was a very 00:07:47.750 --> 00:07:54.555 quick, very. I had no, I had no time to actually think about. How I was 00:07:54.588 --> 00:08:00.026 gonna do this, or, or even it, the reality hadn't even set in yet. But the 00:08:00.059 --> 00:08:07.817 aloneness had set in. That makes sense, yeah. Yeah, I, I can't imagine 00:08:07.850 --> 00:08:13.455 what you're going. So, um, maybe talk about that part. Like whenever you 00:08:13.488 --> 00:08:18.976 started noticing that you were in labor or I when I when I realized I was 00:08:19.009 --> 00:08:22.736 having the baby, I didn't know I was having the baby. I woke up at 1:30 in 00:08:22.769 --> 00:08:26.515 the morning because I felt like I had um wet the bed. And I turned on the 00:08:26.548 --> 00:08:30.645 light and there was blood everywhere. So I had what they call an 00:08:30.678 --> 00:08:36.047 obstruction or abruption, sorry, an abruption. That's where the um 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:42.885 placenta tears away from the in the uterus. So I actually very quietly, my 00:08:42.918 --> 00:08:47.385 parents were in the bedroom across the hall, I said. Mom, get up. There's 00:08:47.418 --> 00:08:52.106 something wrong. And I said it very quietly, and she, she was very 00:08:52.139 --> 00:08:56.787 everyone was very hypersensitive to me and um about what was going on, 00:08:56.820 --> 00:09:00.346 everyone was traumatized and so she actually woke up and bolted across the 00:09:00.379 --> 00:09:04.826 hallway. I can't even believe she heard me and Mesa Police Department was 00:09:04.859 --> 00:09:10.496 called, you know, the Mesa um ambulance was called and then. All of a 00:09:10.529 --> 00:09:12.856 sudden, there's a helicopter landing in the middle of our street cause 00:09:12.889 --> 00:09:17.946 they had to air vacuum me from Mesa to Phoenix to the hospital. 00:09:17.979 --> 00:09:24.816 Nothing about my pregnancy was normal. Nothing. Everything was heightened 00:09:24.849 --> 00:09:32.125 and. traumatic and just actually unbelievable. And as I talk about it, it 00:09:32.158 --> 00:09:35.807 is still, it's still unbelievable to me, like it was an out of body 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:38.496 experience. 00:09:38.529 --> 00:09:45.275 Wow. So you maybe talk about the elaborate on the whole helicopter 00:09:45.308 --> 00:09:49.246 experience. I've never known anyone that's. Yes, 00:09:49.279 --> 00:09:53.096 the medics, the paramedics were in my room and they were they were trying 00:09:53.129 --> 00:10:00.135 to get the gurney down the hallway and the um the chief um medic said, We 00:10:00.168 --> 00:10:03.297 don't have time for this. So he just wrapped a blanket around me, picked 00:10:03.330 --> 00:10:08.436 me up, and he walked me out to the street and the helicopter was already 00:10:08.469 --> 00:10:13.116 Landing, all the neighbors were out and no one knew I was pregnant because 00:10:13.149 --> 00:10:17.836 I could, I wasn't showing it all. So everyone's wondering why this girl 00:10:17.869 --> 00:10:21.167 was was wrapped up in a blanket, has blood all over the place and she's 00:10:21.200 --> 00:10:26.167 being put into A helicopter and my parents had lived there my whole life. 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:29.765 I had lived in that house my whole life. So, except when I moved out, you 00:10:29.798 --> 00:10:34.326 know, for a couple of years as a young adult. So the whole neighborhood 00:10:34.359 --> 00:10:39.427 was watching. It was very It was it was very exciting for everybody, and I 00:10:39.460 --> 00:10:43.645 was just, I couldn't even believe what was happening. So they put me in 00:10:43.678 --> 00:10:49.775 the helicopter and we started taking off. And they actually said to me 00:10:49.808 --> 00:10:53.496 while we were in flight, you know, they had me, the heart monitors and 00:10:53.529 --> 00:10:57.936 stuff and everything on me, and her heart rate was perfect the entire time. 00:10:57.969 --> 00:11:02.907 So she was under no distress whatsoever. I, however, was hemorrhaging 00:11:02.940 --> 00:11:06.816 pretty much to death. So at that point, they couldn't get the bleeding to 00:11:06.849 --> 00:11:12.096 stop. So that was, and when you're pregnant like that, the mother, when 00:11:12.129 --> 00:11:14.775 you're pregnant and you're, you're hemorrhaging like that, the mother is 00:11:14.808 --> 00:11:20.186 actually their main concern. Because that's the first life from what I was 00:11:20.219 --> 00:11:25.515 told. So and it never really registered with me. I knew that, but I knew 00:11:25.548 --> 00:11:29.265 down deep in my heart that I was not going to die that day. And I just had 00:11:29.298 --> 00:11:33.265 this, and that was probably the most calm I'd ever felt when they told me 00:11:33.298 --> 00:11:40.135 , you know, you're hemorrhaging. Uh a lot and um. But the baby's heartbeat 00:11:40.168 --> 00:11:43.096 is good and for some reason, I knew there was a there was an actual 00:11:43.129 --> 00:11:48.297 calmness about me at that moment, and I was like. I knew that I was going 00:11:48.330 --> 00:11:54.986 to be OK. And that was probably the most OK I felt through the entire 00:11:55.019 --> 00:12:01.186 pregnancy, the the entire everything. I had a moment of calmness. That's 00:12:01.219 --> 00:12:07.486 amazing. You know, I mean, you would think that a normal response during 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:12.525 that would be like total terror, you know. Yeah, I didn't panic. I did not 00:12:12.558 --> 00:12:15.967 panic and I don't know why I didn't panic. And they said if you if you 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:19.726 feel nauseous or anything like that, go ahead and tell us and we'll open 00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:23.287 up the windows. And when you're in an air vac helicopter, when they open 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:27.246 up the windows, they pretty much open the entire sides of a helicopter and 00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:30.167 I was like, OK, I changed my mind. I'm not nauseous. Can we please close 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:34.356 the windows? So let's just, let's just get to the hospital and let's do 00:12:34.389 --> 00:12:40.717 this. So yeah, so let's talk about getting to the hospital. We landed and 00:12:40.750 --> 00:12:45.476 they rushed me into a room and the baby's heart rate was perfectly normal 00:12:45.509 --> 00:12:50.076 the whole time and it was kind of funny because the nurses thought it was 00:12:50.109 --> 00:12:54.875 funny because she kept kicking the heart monitor on because they put a 00:12:54.908 --> 00:12:58.677 belt around you and then the heart monitors on your belly and it was like 00:12:58.710 --> 00:13:04.427 she kept playing with it. And it would kind of ding ding ding ding ding. 00:13:04.460 --> 00:13:07.186 It was almost like she was playing with it because she could hear it 00:13:07.219 --> 00:13:10.907 beeping. I thought that was kind of strange. It was like a toy to her or 00:13:10.940 --> 00:13:14.936 something. It was very strange. And every once in a while I'll think about 00:13:14.969 --> 00:13:17.946 that, because at one point when I was pregnant, I would put headphones on 00:13:17.979 --> 00:13:21.547 my belly because I thought, well, they say that they can hear music, and I 00:13:21.580 --> 00:13:27.167 knew nothing about being pregnant. So I put music on her on my belly with 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:29.927 headphones and some of the music that I picked up probably wasn't really 00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:37.005 good for her, but Yeah, so I played country music for her. I played um 00:13:37.038 --> 00:13:41.287 White Zombie, which Rob Zombie is the lead singer for that group and 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:43.927 there's, there's something really, I'll tell you at the end of the story 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:48.927 about that. There's something really weird about that one. So yeah, they, 00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:51.927 so she was playing with a heart monitor. They were, they had elevated my 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:56.807 feet. So I remember watching the Flintstones on TV through my toes. My 00:13:56.840 --> 00:13:59.765 mother was very emotional, very upset. She's like, she thought I was going 00:13:59.798 --> 00:14:05.025 to die. And I looked at her and I said, I'm not going to die. 00:14:05.058 --> 00:14:07.635 I knew I wasn't going to die and I was very calm and peaceful with that 00:14:07.668 --> 00:14:11.456 part, yet I knew it was going to be a very hard journey. The other part of 00:14:11.489 --> 00:14:14.456 me, the other part of me thought this is going to be the hardest thing 00:14:14.489 --> 00:14:19.395 that you've ever done in your entire life. So I had two very contradiction 00:14:19.428 --> 00:14:26.736 contradicting feelings at the same time. So So you were 7 months along. 00:14:26.769 --> 00:14:34.186 Yes, yes, and it happened at about 1:30 in the morning, my abruption. So 00:14:34.219 --> 00:14:40.125 So, um, And you were feeling you weren't, you just had this feeling that 00:14:40.158 --> 00:14:45.566 the child would be OK with. I did. Yes, I did. I knew she was going to be 00:14:45.599 --> 00:14:48.606 OK. I knew I was going to live through it, but I knew that my life was 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:55.326 going to be very hard. Very hard. During the pregnancy, had you like 00:14:55.359 --> 00:14:59.287 imagined, you know, what she would be like and what her name would be and 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:03.537 like really given her. I picked out her name. 00:15:03.570 --> 00:15:07.226 Her name was, I picked out the name Taylor. And I knew it was going to be 00:15:07.259 --> 00:15:11.476 a girl because I wanted, I wanted to find out the sex of the baby so that 00:15:11.509 --> 00:15:16.076 I could start preparing a little bit for her, but still the reality that I 00:15:16.109 --> 00:15:20.037 was really pregnant wasn't real. It still wasn't real. I was buying pink 00:15:20.070 --> 00:15:23.717 clothes and little things here and there, but it was not real to me that I 00:15:23.750 --> 00:15:28.606 was actually going to be a mother. It was terrifying. The feeling was 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:32.606 terrifying that I was actually going to be a mother, and every, every idea 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:39.515 concept or whatever of being a mother, I had no idea, none. No idea. How 00:15:39.548 --> 00:15:45.645 involved that was or that meant where it was going to be. No clue. You 00:15:45.678 --> 00:15:50.326 only have 3 months. Yes, so it wasn't even real to me and I wasn't showing 00:15:50.359 --> 00:15:53.726 , so it really wasn't real to me. I would just feel a flutter here and 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:58.125 there and that was it. Just a little flutter and I would feel her go back 00:15:58.158 --> 00:16:01.505 and forth a little bit. Maybe it was the music she didn't like, I don't 00:16:01.538 --> 00:16:07.645 know at times. So they had their feet elevated and then they C-sectioned 00:16:07.678 --> 00:16:12.736 or? Yes, the doctor, they called in a specialist and he said, we are going 00:16:12.769 --> 00:16:18.456 to have a baby. He said, because there, there is a 7-minute time period 00:16:18.489 --> 00:16:23.606 where you can go from alive to dead, where I cannot bring you back. And 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:27.486 that's exactly what he said. And I was like, wow, that's pretty blunt. He 00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:33.076 doesn't mince words, does he? I'm like, OK. And I was actually OK. I was 00:16:33.109 --> 00:16:37.057 OK with what he said. OK, let's do this. 00:16:37.090 --> 00:16:41.566 And I actually wanted her out of me as soon as possible, because the whole 00:16:41.599 --> 00:16:46.456 time I was pregnant, I had this fear of being huge. 00:16:46.489 --> 00:16:50.657 I was so used to being in this really tiny thin emaciated body that I was 00:16:50.690 --> 00:16:56.346 afraid to be. I have a fear of being heavy. So that was, that was more 00:16:56.379 --> 00:17:01.765 real to me than anything. I'm going to be heavy. You know, not many women 00:17:01.798 --> 00:17:05.686 say that, but I think almost every woman experiences that like the idea of 00:17:05.719 --> 00:17:09.526 your body changing and you're not really being in control of it, and so 00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:14.926 much of our self-worth is based upon how we look and stuff, and then 00:17:14.959 --> 00:17:17.686 that's just going to change. You won't feel like who you are, who you 00:17:17.719 --> 00:17:20.967 normally are. Yeah, the thought of gaining all that weight and being that 00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:27.476 big was terrifying to me. Cause how does your body recover from that? How 00:17:27.509 --> 00:17:32.107 you know how and I hadn't. Never really none of my friends had ever had a 00:17:32.140 --> 00:17:37.075 baby, so I was like the first one. This was like it was a totally un. 00:17:37.108 --> 00:17:43.637 Uncharted territory for me. I had no idea what I was before. I was 21, 21 00:17:43.670 --> 00:17:46.266 years old. 00:17:46.299 --> 00:17:52.597 And I think with my um maturity level that was much too young for me, much 00:17:52.630 --> 00:17:57.156 too young for me. And I found out as time went on that this was not a 00:17:57.189 --> 00:18:05.189 puppy. This was much more difficult. Then I had even imagined. So have the 00:18:05.259 --> 00:18:09.776 doctors told you about what what the experience would be like post 00:18:09.809 --> 00:18:15.266 operation, you know, that she would be premature and we were all, they, 00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:21.545 they gave me the saddle block, so I was numb from, you know, my waist down 00:18:21.578 --> 00:18:24.266 and there was a mirror on the ceiling and they told me that I would feel 00:18:24.299 --> 00:18:28.387 some pressure. And then all of a sudden I saw this purple, they were 00:18:28.420 --> 00:18:30.867 holding this purple object and I said, What is that? And they said, that 00:18:30.900 --> 00:18:37.535 is your uterus. And I thought, oh my goodness, oh my God. 00:18:37.568 --> 00:18:43.246 And so that was like, that was, wow, that was when reality really started 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:48.055 setting in. I was like, wow, that is my body part. So, and then they slice 00:18:48.088 --> 00:18:52.176 that open and they started pulling out a baby. Here comes some little feet 00:18:52.209 --> 00:18:55.717 , here's some little legs, here comes a little bottom, cutest little 00:18:55.750 --> 00:19:00.406 bottom I've ever seen in my life, really. And they were twisting her 00:19:00.439 --> 00:19:04.686 around like she was stuck in there and I'm like, I actually at one point 00:19:04.719 --> 00:19:08.776 said, I'm afraid you're gonna pop her little head off. And the doctor said 00:19:08.809 --> 00:19:14.065 something to the point or to the effect of, we're just hoping she has 00:19:14.098 --> 00:19:16.097 lungs. 00:19:16.130 --> 00:19:20.516 We're just hoping she has lungs. She came out, they pulled her out and she 00:19:20.549 --> 00:19:26.206 was screaming and crying and everyone was excited. I'm getting goosebumps. 00:19:26.239 --> 00:19:31.085 Everyone was so excited that she was, she had lungs, she had a full head 00:19:31.118 --> 00:19:38.055 of hair. She was absolutely perfectly pink. She was a beautiful, healthy 3 00:19:38.088 --> 00:19:42.276 pound baby. There was absolutely nothing wrong with her whatsoever other 00:19:42.309 --> 00:19:44.835 than the fact that she was 2 pounds underweight, so she wouldn't be able 00:19:44.868 --> 00:19:49.835 to go home right away. So I'm actually one of the luckiest women walking 00:19:49.868 --> 00:19:56.335 the planet. And and she is too. So I'm actually very lucky that there was 00:19:56.368 --> 00:19:58.696 nothing wrong with her. She had to gain 2 pounds before she left the 00:19:58.729 --> 00:20:04.075 hospital. But when babies are that little, they'll gain 3 ounces and then 00:20:04.108 --> 00:20:08.597 lose 2. But it only took her 2 weeks. So, and being a female child, she 00:20:08.630 --> 00:20:14.387 was, she was a fighter. She was a very strong little girl, so. Yeah. Wow, 00:20:14.420 --> 00:20:19.936 that's truly miraculous. Um, did your grandmother, whom you were saying 00:20:19.969 --> 00:20:24.377 was kind of pushing for, she, 00:20:24.410 --> 00:20:28.176 they had had a friend, an older friend that was in the hospital, um, she 00:20:28.209 --> 00:20:31.456 was an elderly lady, she was having some kind of kidney problems. She was 00:20:31.489 --> 00:20:36.976 in the same hospital as me. I was on the 6th floor. She was on. 00:20:37.009 --> 00:20:40.315 I think she was on the 1st floor or the 2nd floor, and my grandparents 00:20:40.348 --> 00:20:43.127 actually were at the hospital visiting their friend, but they were so 00:20:43.160 --> 00:20:49.325 against unwed mothers that they didn't come and see me or the baby. 00:20:49.358 --> 00:20:55.035 So that right there was a very shaming, very shaming for me. So, you know 00:20:55.068 --> 00:21:01.476 , here comes all those feelings of disappointment and shame and guilt and 00:21:01.509 --> 00:21:08.085 almost remorse, you know, that I had. Disappointed everybody so much. And 00:21:08.118 --> 00:21:12.766 when I, as soon as I could feel my my legs after the saddle block wore off 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:18.426 , I was. I was up in the um ICU looking at her where the preemie babies 00:21:18.459 --> 00:21:23.305 were, and I remember thinking. 00:21:23.338 --> 00:21:28.256 I was just Stunned I thought she's the cutest thing I've ever seen in my 00:21:28.289 --> 00:21:33.656 life, but I was terrified of her. Absolutely terrified. 00:21:33.689 --> 00:21:37.276 And at that point, I, I didn't even think about my body because all I knew 00:21:37.309 --> 00:21:42.815 it was purged. I wasn't going to be heavy. And I that was a relief to me. 00:21:42.848 --> 00:21:46.906 I wasn't gonna get fat. Out of everything that had happened, I wasn't 00:21:46.939 --> 00:21:52.516 going to get fat, and she had lungs. 00:21:52.549 --> 00:21:57.607 Ironic So were you nursing or bodily feeding her? What do you do with a 3 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:01.887 ? Um, if I were to bottle feed her, I was going to have to live on a 00:22:01.920 --> 00:22:05.647 breast pump because they were sending me home after 3 days and she would 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:11.246 have to stay there. So I had to travel from Mesa to Phoenix to visit her 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:17.377 and At first, I visited her, and then after a while, I stopped. I couldn't 00:22:17.410 --> 00:22:21.217 , I couldn't handle it. I was scared of her. I didn't know what to do. She 00:22:21.250 --> 00:22:25.956 was a very Complicated baby. She had to eat every 2 hours because she was 00:22:25.989 --> 00:22:30.117 a preemie. Um, she wasn't as complicated as the others. There were very, 00:22:30.150 --> 00:22:34.956 very sickly babies in there. I was, I was the luckier one. Um, my mother 00:22:34.989 --> 00:22:38.746 would actually go visit her more than I did. So therefore, my mother 00:22:38.779 --> 00:22:44.717 bonded with my daughter and I did not. Because it still wasn't a reality 00:22:44.750 --> 00:22:51.545 to me. It wasn't real to me. It was like an out of body experience. 00:22:51.578 --> 00:22:57.127 I had all the emotions other than pure joy and bliss and what uh what 00:22:57.160 --> 00:22:59.565 you're supposed to, you know, what they say that you're supposed to feel, 00:22:59.598 --> 00:23:05.607 oh motherhood is so beautiful and so, you know, such a content feeling and 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:10.217 so they felt complete and you know some women say that and I'm like. I 00:23:10.250 --> 00:23:15.156 didn't feel that. I did not feel that. Am I missing something? Do I, am I 00:23:15.189 --> 00:23:19.647 missing some kind of microchip or some kind of, you know, I, I don't, I 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:23.565 didn't get it. And to this day, I still don't get it. 00:23:23.598 --> 00:23:28.127 So how is your relationship with her? Is it? My, um, I made a decision 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:33.347 when my daughter was 8 months old to um give her up for adoption. 00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:39.867 My parents are actually the ones that adopted her. And that. It was, it 00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:43.666 was a very strained relationship because I didn't want to give her up 00:23:43.699 --> 00:23:48.825 because I felt like I've like I was failing again. This was the biggest 00:23:48.858 --> 00:23:54.526 fail this is, this was the biggest failure in my life. Um, to this day, I 00:23:54.559 --> 00:24:01.526 still feel like I failed my daughter. Um, I failed her and, but I did. 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:07.706 I did the right thing for her, but it took me 8 long months to to finally 00:24:07.739 --> 00:24:11.506 make a decision and say out loud, I can't do this, and I don't want to do 00:24:11.539 --> 00:24:18.877 this. I don't have that motherly instinct, I guess. Um, I didn't have that 00:24:18.910 --> 00:24:23.897 bond with her that my mom did, and I would watch her with my mom and I'm 00:24:23.930 --> 00:24:28.906 And I didn't have that. And I had somewhere in there, um, returned to 00:24:28.939 --> 00:24:35.295 drugs. So everything that had happened was. 00:24:35.328 --> 00:24:37.847 It was such an out of body experience that it didn't really happen yet. 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.006 Here was this little baby, but I didn't bond with her, so it was never 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.666 real to me. 00:24:44.699 --> 00:24:48.746 It was just never real to me and my mom, I, I don't know. I don't, I don't 00:24:48.779 --> 00:24:52.426 , I don't know. She just had that. I don't know if it's because she had 2 00:24:52.459 --> 00:25:00.217 children previous. Actually 31 of them passed away. Um, But I never bonded 00:25:00.250 --> 00:25:05.357 with her, so we went through the whole court thing. And that was the 00:25:05.390 --> 00:25:08.676 hardest thing I've ever had to say out loud in my entire life. I don't, I 00:25:08.709 --> 00:25:14.946 , I can't do this. I don't, I don't, I don't want to do this. Take her. 00:25:14.979 --> 00:25:20.166 So, and then, um, from 8 months old till she was 2, I did not see her. 00:25:20.199 --> 00:25:25.446 Because my, my mother at that point, she just, she had bonded with her so 00:25:25.479 --> 00:25:30.127 strong that she didn't, she almost didn't want me around. And it probably 00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:34.617 was better that I wasn't around because I was using drugs again. When I 00:25:34.650 --> 00:25:38.295 would see her though, I wouldn't be on them, I would restrain from them, 00:25:38.328 --> 00:25:43.016 and I eventually got sober when she was 2 years old. But no one ever told 00:25:43.049 --> 00:25:48.315 her. She knew though, and it was really funny because she she knew and she 00:25:48.348 --> 00:25:54.607 told my mom when she was 6, she said, I know Tara is my mama. 00:25:54.640 --> 00:26:00.137 She knew. I don't know if she remembered. I have, I have no idea, but she 00:26:00.170 --> 00:26:02.766 knew, and I remember she would look at me when they would drive away. She 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:08.526 would, they would come visit me. At either my apartment or um. When I was 00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:12.196 living in a halfway house because I did get sober. When she was 2, she 00:26:12.229 --> 00:26:15.035 would, I remember her little eyes would be peeking up over the, the 00:26:15.068 --> 00:26:18.117 passenger seat. She'd be in the back seat in her little car seat, and her 00:26:18.150 --> 00:26:20.835 little eyes would be looking at me and she would look at me and and I knew 00:26:20.868 --> 00:26:24.835 , I knew she knew something the way she looked at me, she would just look 00:26:24.868 --> 00:26:29.387 at me different. So she knew that I was her mother. I know Tara is my mama. 00:26:29.420 --> 00:26:33.545 That's exactly what she said to my mother. I know Tara is my mama. And 00:26:33.578 --> 00:26:37.976 today we have a wonderful relationship. However, the bond that my mother 00:26:38.009 --> 00:26:42.825 and my daughter have is much stronger than mine and my daughter's. And 00:26:42.858 --> 00:26:46.217 we've talked about it, and that's OK. 00:26:46.250 --> 00:26:50.545 And it's, she just was married and the funny thing about it is she said, I 00:26:50.578 --> 00:26:53.996 don't think I'm gonna have children. She said, I would rather have my dog 00:26:54.029 --> 00:26:59.565 and my cat and my rabbits and my chickens. She said, I don't. She was, I 00:26:59.598 --> 00:27:02.526 don't think I can. She goes, I don't think I could love a child more than 00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:08.325 I love my dog. And I looked at her, and this might sound horrible to 00:27:08.358 --> 00:27:15.085 someone else, but I said I totally get that. I totally get that. And not 00:27:15.118 --> 00:27:19.805 that I love her, you know, I love her more than anything in this world, 00:27:19.838 --> 00:27:24.246 but I'm more maternal with my, my cats than I was with my daughter. So 00:27:24.279 --> 00:27:30.467 something Happened or something didn't happen when I was pregnant. 00:27:30.500 --> 00:27:34.825 Something that happens to other women or doesn't happen to other women. I 00:27:34.858 --> 00:27:38.357 don't know. And I, believe me, I've thought about it for years and years 00:27:38.390 --> 00:27:41.706 and years, you know, here and there. What element is it that I don't have 00:27:41.739 --> 00:27:46.946 ? And what element is it that some women do have? 00:27:46.979 --> 00:27:52.785 But no one knows. I agree there's, you know, it's not an obligation by any 00:27:52.818 --> 00:27:58.107 means to have a child, and you know some people that drive to have a child 00:27:58.140 --> 00:28:01.706 , and other people just don't. My sister definitely isn't going to have 00:28:01.739 --> 00:28:06.266 kids. I've got to stop that dryer. Can you hear it? Sorry, it's making me 00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:10.627 crazy. I don't know why Eric would put a dryer. Um, you know, it's 00:28:10.660 --> 00:28:14.906 interesting too when you talk about this failure in the sense of failure. 00:28:14.939 --> 00:28:21.035 Um, is it recording? you know, failing your daughter and Um, but my God, 00:28:21.068 --> 00:28:25.315 she has, she owes you her life. You know, I think that's, that's an 00:28:25.348 --> 00:28:28.246 incredible gift. 00:28:28.279 --> 00:28:33.486 It's the best thing you can. There are a lot of, of women that have 00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:37.805 children that should not have children, and I, and it's, I don't know if I 00:28:37.838 --> 00:28:41.956 have an extra sense or something about it, but I can see it. I mean, you 00:28:41.989 --> 00:28:48.147 can see when parents shouldn't be parents, you know. But I can see it in 00:28:48.180 --> 00:28:52.607 women, and it's, I can see how hard it is to say out loud. I know how hard 00:28:52.640 --> 00:28:56.387 it is to say out loud. I can't do this. And to tell you the truth, I don't 00:28:56.420 --> 00:29:02.676 want to. I can't find it in me to want to do this. I can't, and I 00:29:02.709 --> 00:29:06.597 struggled with that for eight months. I mean, I literally sat up night 00:29:06.630 --> 00:29:10.285 after night after night. 00:29:10.318 --> 00:29:13.627 Trying to find it in me somewhere to raise this beautiful little baby girl 00:29:13.660 --> 00:29:18.526 , and I couldn't, I couldn't find it. I couldn't find the will to do it, 00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:24.575 could not do it. And I felt so guilty and I felt so bad. But at the same 00:29:24.608 --> 00:29:29.696 time, it's the best thing that I could ever do for her. So it was success 00:29:29.729 --> 00:29:35.996 and failure feeling all at the same time. So very confusing. And I still 00:29:36.029 --> 00:29:41.906 can't I, I still almost can't make sense of it in a way. And her and I 00:29:41.939 --> 00:29:47.535 have talked about it. We've talked about it. And she knows that and I do 00:29:47.568 --> 00:29:51.805 love her more than anything in the world, but I think my mother loves her 00:29:51.838 --> 00:29:58.426 more. I really do when I watch them. She has that bond with her and it's 00:29:58.459 --> 00:30:03.996 amazing to me how someone that doesn't. She is not her natural biological 00:30:04.029 --> 00:30:09.627 mother, and yet she loves her like she is. And that's amazing to me. So we 00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:17.545 , I still. I still go through. All these maternal feelings. 00:30:17.578 --> 00:30:21.506 And but, but I don't, but I don't at the same time. I don't, I don't know 00:30:21.539 --> 00:30:28.446 how to explain that. If that makes any sense whatsoever. Yeah, I think our 00:30:28.479 --> 00:30:33.607 emotions around birth are very complex and contradictory and you know, 00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:38.647 full of, you know, highs and lows and and just different things all at the 00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:42.006 same time, you know, and it's hard to put into words. I think you're doing 00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:46.377 a great job though, um. You know, we've been asking people because we're 00:30:46.410 --> 00:30:51.377 separating things into themes, these stories into things, and um and so 00:30:51.410 --> 00:30:55.137 we've been asking people like, what is there a word or something that you 00:30:55.170 --> 00:30:59.686 could, you would say like encompasses the experience that you had somehow 00:30:59.719 --> 00:31:03.676 , you know. 00:31:03.709 --> 00:31:08.545 The feeling, the, the feeling that I, the, the feeling, the word, the all 00:31:08.578 --> 00:31:15.295 encompassing whatever. Is absolutely totally alone. 00:31:15.328 --> 00:31:23.328 Alone, I would, I could be in a room full of people and I was alone. 00:31:23.328 --> 00:31:28.617 Do you feel, um, now that you've bonded with other women that have similar 00:31:28.650 --> 00:31:33.305 experience or anything that you feel less alone, or do you? You know, I 00:31:33.338 --> 00:31:37.585 think all women have their own individual story. Um, I've been around 00:31:37.618 --> 00:31:43.107 women who have some of the same background as I do with drugs, and they 00:31:43.140 --> 00:31:46.585 have lost their children. They have done whatever it took to get their 00:31:46.618 --> 00:31:51.026 children back. Um, some women have lost their children forever to other 00:31:51.059 --> 00:31:55.946 families because they couldn't do what they needed to do to get them back. 00:31:55.979 --> 00:32:01.766 Um, and I think. The feeling is, you know. The feeling is the same. It's 00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:06.226 that little sense of failure that you didn't. Because the world, everyone 00:32:06.259 --> 00:32:10.315 thinks that it's like women have to become mothers. Some of us aren't 00:32:10.348 --> 00:32:15.026 meant to be mothers. You know, some of us just aren't meant to be mothers 00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:19.906 , and so there's always that little bit of the feeling that the world's 00:32:19.939 --> 00:32:22.746 looking at you like, oh my gosh, you had a child and you couldn't do it 00:32:22.779 --> 00:32:26.617 and you lost them and this or that was more important. I don't think this 00:32:26.650 --> 00:32:31.496 or that was more important. I just don't have that element, whatever it is. 00:32:31.529 --> 00:32:35.446 Or it didn't kick in. And I knew when I, the minute I found out I was 00:32:35.479 --> 00:32:39.315 pregnant, I knew I was only gonna have one child. I thought to myself, I 00:32:39.348 --> 00:32:43.835 am not doing this again. Oh my goodness. So and I knew, I knew, I 00:32:43.868 --> 00:32:48.666 intuitively knew that this would be my only child. I had no idea how it 00:32:48.699 --> 00:32:53.377 was gonna play out at that point, but I knew it was my only child. 00:32:53.410 --> 00:32:57.647 It seems to me that it's actually incredibly selfless to put a child up 00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:02.766 for adoption after making the decision that you're not going to be the 00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:06.887 quality of parent you want for your child, you know, that seems like such 00:33:06.920 --> 00:33:12.246 an important decision to be made, and it's more sad when kids are in homes 00:33:12.279 --> 00:33:19.305 where the parents aren't capable. Exactly. I did not want to ruin her. And 00:33:19.338 --> 00:33:23.176 that's That's the beginning and the end of it all. I did not want to ruin 00:33:23.209 --> 00:33:27.456 her, and I knew if I kept her, I was going to resent her. I was going to 00:33:27.489 --> 00:33:31.575 damage her, and she was going to be in therapy for the rest of her life. I 00:33:31.608 --> 00:33:35.295 could just see it and I did not want to have that for her. I want her to 00:33:35.328 --> 00:33:39.736 have a beautiful life and she did. She has a very beautiful life. She was 00:33:39.769 --> 00:33:46.476 just married in June. She has a a great job and a great husband and. She 00:33:46.509 --> 00:33:49.996 lives in Flagstaff. She's a very outdoorsy person. She's very smart, she's 00:33:50.029 --> 00:33:53.877 very creative. She's still very small. She was 3 pounds when she was born. 00:33:53.910 --> 00:33:57.055 She's only 5 ft. So. 00:33:57.088 --> 00:34:00.815 She's very, and she's a fighter. She is, she's a tough girl. She's, she's 00:34:00.848 --> 00:34:05.377 , she's a go-getter. She's exactly how she was born is exactly how she 00:34:05.410 --> 00:34:11.135 still is today. She's a very strong, strong girl, beautiful, healthy, 00:34:11.168 --> 00:34:15.247 strong girl, beautiful person. 00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:22.000 Well, I think that's it for me. Thank you so much. That was gorgeous.