This is Boris Solis interviewing for the Creative Push project on
December 17, 2016 at 12:35 p.m. OK, can you say your name and your age? Uh
, Nicole Gonzalez and I'm 36. Excellent. OK. So why don't we start with
you just giving me a little like family background, you know, where you're
from, you know. So I'm Dana and I grew up in Waterflow, New Mexico with my
mom and my stepdad, and we have your typical blended family. Um, I
actually have 8 siblings and um, yeah, it's, it was a really nice
childhood. We traveled to like um. North Dakota, South Dakota, selling uh
jewelry, visiting people and going to powwows. Um, and my dad actually
lived. I would say like 10 minutes south on the Navajo reservation. Um,
he's a diesel mechanic and he lived in a trailer. Um, I have a lot of fond
memories of visiting him because I would play in the ditch and go jump in
the river in the summertime and go climb what it's called little hugback,
um, and just have my little tea parties up there by myself and. I often
think about my kids not having that kind of childhood today because we're
too afraid to send them out to do stuff like that by themselves. But those
were really good times. My mom, she um she worked for a coal mine. She
used to drive the big coal trucks. My whole family actually worked for um
BH what is it? Uh, for one of the coal mining companies up there, there's
like 3 of them, but my grandfather, my uncles, my aunts, my mom, my dad,
everybody worked for coal mines. Um, and I feel like they provided us a
really good income and I think that's why a lot of my relatives work there.
Um, my mom did a lot of shift work. She'd worked night shift and weekends
, holidays until she injured her back and then she stopped working. And my
stepdad continued to work there until he retired recently from an injury.
And she, um, after she married my dad, my stepdad, they had two more
children who are my little brother and sister, and so I pretty much raised
them. They were with me everywhere I went in high school. People thought
they were my kids because they were always with me. And um my family
really like to travel a lot and so I really I'm thankful for their
adventurous side because I also like to travel still. Um, my mom and dad
today make teepees and that's their business. I, I feel like my mom was
just always kind of a natural entrepreneur. She sold Mary Kay, she, she
made jewelry, she sews like nonstop these days, and they make teepees,
still sell jewelry here and there. So they're pretty, they're pretty busy
even though they're retired. Um, my dad, he, my stepdad, he grew up in the
Native American church, and so he introduced that to our family when I was
pretty young. Um, Having people over for all night meetings and um having
a teepee in the backyard like that was normal for me. Um, my parents would
often go on weekends to other families' homes to do ceremonies for them,
for healing. And that was a good, just a normal kind of thing that we did
, you know, my mom, um, She would pray over us, she would get her cedar
out and her fan, and she would pray over us if we had a big test, or if
we're having family issues, she would pray. Um, a lot of my milestones
growing up was like that. My 16th birthday, we had a NAC meeting for
graduation, I had an NAC meeting and If there were problems, we had sweat
lodge and we sit and talk with our family and have a sweat lodge. Um, to
me, that was really normal. I don't think I realized how lucky I was to
have that growing up. Um, my dad, who is a diesel mechanic, he. Has a new
family as well. He's got another son with my stepmom and. He has a very
big family as well. Um, he's got 8 siblings and we would go to their sheep
camp and play outside and for Thanksgiving or Christmas, we'd go over and
visit. He's a farmer, so he was always outside irrigating the field or
planting corn and like he really liked to be outside and work. So I feel
like I got a good balance of kind of being outdoors and being indoors.
Do you remember your mother being pregnant? I do remember my mom being
pregnant with her first child, which was my sister. Um, I don't, I think I
was maybe 9 or 10, um. I remember having her, she's had this big belly.
Maybe she was 8 or 9 months, um.
And we would go for walks. We so in water flow, we lived off right right
off the highway of 550. So we would walk up and down the road for like
exercise, and she'd be walking with her pregnant belly. People would stop
and ask if we needed a ride because maybe we thought we had a car broken
down, and my mom would tell them, no, I, I, um, I don't need a ride, we're
just getting exercise. But she, she went to the hospital in Farmington and
had her baby and during that time, you know, kids were not allowed in the
hospital and I remember really missing her when she was gone at the
hospital. It felt like forever. I don't really know how long she was gone.
Um, and because I was the only child at home with my stepdad, it felt
very quiet and lonely when she wasn't there. Um, but she went to the
hospital and, you know, next thing you know, she came home with the baby
and it was my sister and You know, I don't really remember my sister so
much as a baby. Um, I was very much the big sister helping change diapers
and. You know, taking care of them when she was away for POD meetings or,
you know, helping my dad. Um, and then my, I guess she must have had a
miscarriage at some point between my sister and my brother, and they had
some sort of ceremony done. And then she had my brother. Um, who I was
really happy to have more kids in the house. It was less quiet. And he um
He Was pretty healthy baby, you know, again, I was curious and wanted to
be there with her at her birth, but I couldn't. Um, I think my mom likes
to laugh because the first thing I said to her was like they look like one
of them, which my dad had 3 other stepchildren or 3 children from another
marriage. And so I was making a reference that they look like his side of
the family. Um, they kind of laughed about that, but, you know, I, I'm
really close to my little brother and sister because I spent so much time
taking care of them. Um, I know when I went to college, they were pretty
sad and upset to see me go.
Did you um understand the birth process? Did she share any of that with
you at a young age? I didn't understand the birth process, um. No, she
didn't tell me about babies or how they came to be. Um, It wasn't until I
became older and had my own children that I began to ask my mom about how
my birth was, and she said she doesn't quite remember. Um, I, she says, I
want to say like 5 or 6 months, um, she and my dad got divorced, and I
think that was really traumatic for her and so she didn't remember my
pregnancy or my birth. It kind of bothers me that she doesn't remember
that sort of thing with me, but you know when I start asking her about my
sister's birth and my brother's birth, like she doesn't quite remember
either. Um, unless you know, she's sitting across from my aunt who was
with her for each of those births, then it's like her mind is and jarred
that that my sister needed a vacuum assisted delivery before she could
come out. Um, she doesn't know if she had an epidural or not, um. So yeah
, she doesn't quite remember those things. So can you tell us about your
first pregnancy, like all the way back to the conception, you know, what
were the circumstances? Was it expected? Was it a surprise? It was
definitely a surprise. My husband and I um had been dating for 2 years and
he asked me to marry him in January. And it was really lovely and um.
Engagement and then a couple of months later I found out I was pregnant
and um I had a miscarriage that first time um and then not too much longer
I found I was pregnant again and I was really happy and excited even
though it wasn't planned or expected. I definitely was concerned that
people would think that I got pregnant. And then we got married. Um, but
that's not what happened. And I know he was really happy and excited. Um,
at the time I was working as a nursing assistant at a like a rehab
hospital in Albuquerque. Um, I was really interested in becoming a nurse
when I met my husband. Um, actually, no, I was actually going to school to
be a doctor, um, when we met, and so when we got engaged, you know, the
plan changed a little bit and I thought, well, I kind of want a family. I
don't really want that busy life that the doctor has, so maybe I'll be a
nurse. And so I did everything I could to learn about nursing, to get
education, training and nursing before I applied to nursing school. Um,
but I was probably in my 2nd year of college when I got pregnant with my
daughter. And I was really sick. I was so sick. I had to stop working and
I threw up so many times a day and I had to keep trash bags in my car
because the motion made me sick. Um, it was really difficult and I really
had a hard time finding a doctor I liked. I had no knowledge about
midwifery or what kind of options I had available to me. I asked my
sister-in-law who she saw for her pregnancies and She referred me to her
doctor and. He was OK. Um, I don't think I had any preconceived ideas
about what kind of care I would get. I just know he was a doctor. He
listened to my belly when I went in to see him. Um, and that was it. Like
there wasn't really a relationship there. I didn't, and I didn't expect
one. Um, About our 3rd or 4th month that I was pregnant, um, we got
married. And in the Pueblo culture, it's like a big old weekend event with
lots of hard work and baking bread and you know um working with the
community and me being a young 20 year old, I had no idea that's what all
entailed. I thought the white wedding and the dress and off with my
girlfriends and having a bachelorette party. I didn't have any of that. I
I was sick and I was pregnant. And I was trying to do my best to please
everybody to have this wedding. Um, And so the day of my wedding, I was
still sick. My father-in-law had gotten me a breakfast burrito with chili
and oh, I just couldn't keep it down. And it's funny because um. That
first day, after we got married in the church in San Alfonso Pueblo. Um,
They take you to your home or your family's home, and they talk to you
about being about being married and how to treat each other, and you
choose speakers to talk to you about marriage. Um, this can go on all day
and all night. It just kind of depends. So while your cooks are feeding
everybody at a different location, the community is talking to you about
getting married or being married. Once the conversation ends and they can
release you, then you can go eat. So it's probably maybe 4 or 5, maybe in
the in the day that I got to eat for the first time, and I was really sick
and I was, we went to our Our um reception and we're sitting at the table
and I'm trying not to throw up and I'm telling my husband, you know, can
you please go grab me some bread and some water? I said, I don't feel very
good, and he's looking at me like, OK, but he's not going anywhere and I'm
getting really mad because I'm like, OK, is this what it's going to be
like? You know your wife is sick, you're embarrassed to go grab some food
because you don't want to offend anybody, and I'm going to throw up on my
dress. So I was really upset. And finally somebody came and brought us
some food and he saw that I was really upset with him. I was trying not to
cry sitting there, and it's hard not to do that when people are looking at
you. um, and I was in my mind thinking, God, is this what I married? Is
this guy not going to take care of me? My needs going to come last when
I'm pregnant and sick and he's not going to grab me food. Like you have
that realization, um. But he, he did something kind of um very sweet, but
he, he knew I couldn't say no, we had a. Uh, a guy who came and played
music while people were eating and he played a song for me and he said,
Can my wife come and dance with me? And I couldn't say no. And so he asked
me to go dance and and I forgave him by that point. So We got through that
first part. It was probably out of all three of my pregnancies, the
hardest part of it was being sick and throwing up. And the remaining of my
pregnancy, I.
I, I don't think I was really aware of what kind of mom I wanted to be. I
hadn't read any literature. Um, I know a lot of moms today are very
self-aware about what kind of mothers they want to be and. I just wasn't.
I was 20 you know, I, I didn't have a plan. Um I also had just been
married into this family who I really adored and loved my husband's family
and. I feel like I was just really trying to please everybody, um, and I
hadn't made any plans about the birth or. You know, I was reading what to
expect when you're expecting and kind of excited to see the changes to my
body every week. I think through that whole pregnancy, we only got one
picture of my belly. Um, And
It was pretty uneventful, I, I guess. I don't know if I gained a lot of
weight or not. I don't quite remember. Um, I was also still in school full
time being pregnant and so I was pretty focused on my education. Um, my
husband at the time, he was working in um like the eastern part of New
Mexico, so it's an hour and a half hour drive, one direction, 1 hour half
back. So when he would get home from work, he was pretty tired.
So did you fall into some traditional roles of husband and wife? Yes and
no. Um, when I met my husband, my mom was very stern with him and had a
talk that I was going to finish school before we. Did anything. Um, we
don't follow that obviously, but I was determined to finish school for my
own reasons. Um, so we weren't traditional in that sense, um.
I think As far as being a mom and staying home and taking care of myself
during my pregnancy.
I think I was immature in my twenties and just thinking that was my role.
Um, did you, uh, so you had so many other things on your plate, besides
just focusing on your birth and the pregnancy. So, but did you have a
moment to think about like, um, did you just think, well, I'm going to go
to the hospital and whatever happens happens, or did you? Right. So we, we
did go to childbirth preparation classes, um, and that was really exciting
to be in a room full of moms and dads and we were really attentive
listening. I think it was like a four week class. I remember doing the
breathing and then they're showing us the forceps and the vacuum and my
husband's looking at me. He's like, those things are not going to get used
on our child. Um, but I was just kind of naive, like, oh, OK, those are
tools to help with delivery. Um, and I believe we did that towards the end
of our pregnancy. I remember the morning my labor contractions started, it
was like 2 in the morning and I was like, oh, the contractions are
starting, and I kind of, you know, woke him up and shoved his arm a little
bit, was like, Hey, you know, contractions have started. He's like, really
? Do we need to go to the hospital? And I'm like, No, they're coming, but
I don't think it's going to be a while yet. But by that point I couldn't
go back to sleep. So I get up and we're cleaning our house because our
baby room isn't quite ready and um you know making sure my bag is ready to
go and you know and the contractions are still like cramping every couple
of minutes and you know just some of those changes I noticed in my body
and I had actually a doctor's appointment that day and my husband was
going to work and he was like, Do I need to go to work or do I stay? And I
said, No, go to work. Um, I have a doctor's appointment. I said this is
probably just early labor and then um I'll um. I'll call you if I need you.
So he goes to work and then I go to the doctor's office and the doctor
looks at me and he says, Well, we're going to induce you today. And I was
like, Oh, I said, Well, I thought I was still pretty early in labor. He
says, No, your your blood pressure is really high and we need you to go to
labor and delivery right now. And I'm like, OK, what I feel fine. Um, it's
not till years later that I was thinking about my last trimester of my
pregnancy and looking at pictures. I was really swollen, my feet were
really swollen, my face was swollen. I remember getting headaches. I
remember flashes of light when I moved in my vision. Um, which. To my
knowledge, today is tall tale signs of preeclampsia. Um, but I didn't know
that then. I felt fine as far as I know. So I remember going to labor and
delivery. I just walked over because he was in the same building. And they
put up IVN and I called my husband. I was like, OK, it's, you know,
they're going to induce me today. You need to come over and see me and get
my stuff and. So he was excited. And I believe they use Pitocin to get my
labor going a little more and. And um my my mother-in-law and my
sister-in-law were there and I called my mom and she came and. I was kind
of Unsettled about who I want it to be at my birth, um. Again, I was in my
young twenties trying to please everybody, not wanting people to feel left
out because, um, but really, you know, if it was. Years later, it would
have just been me and my husband. I wouldn't have had so many people there.
Um,
My relationship with my sister-in-law when we were married. Early on was
really difficult. Um, she really was judgmental about me and my role, why
he married me at all. Um, a lot of our disagreements during our pregnancy
was because of her. So to have her at the birth um was kind of my peace
offering because his mom was insistent that she should be there and wanted
to be there to support. So I allowed it, um. But while she was there, like
she was on her phone the whole time and you know there's pictures of her
talking on the phone over my bed and. Um, a little distracting, um.
But I did get an epidural for pain because the Pitocin got pretty intense
and strong. Um, and I didn't feel anything once the Pitocin was in or not
sorry, the epidural was placed. I was pretty comfortable. Um, I still to
this day don't know what my blood pressure looked like. Um, I do remember
when it came time to push, you know, the doctor's sitting there at the
edge of the bed and my legs are spread open, and I can't even remember if
I was in stirrups or not. I might have been, um, but I'm pushing, but I'm
not feeling anything. And I'm looking down at him asking him, am I pushing
appropriately and he's not giving me any feedback. So I'm looking to my
right, talking to the nurse like, is this how I push? And she says, Oh
yeah, you're doing fine. You need to push this way. I probably was pushing
for almost 3 hours when they finally decided to um use some forceps. So
they used the forceps to help her out. Um, and she came out and the first
thing I saw was her big belly, like big belly, crying baby. They bring her
over to me and I'm like, you know like great, you know she's out. um and
they take her right away over to this to the warming station. And you just
see her belly. It's all I can see she's just a big baby on her belly and
she's got rolls at her arms and. Um, Anyway, my mother-in-law and my
sister-in-law over there were checking on her and my mom's looking at her
and then my husband didn't leave my side. He's he looked at her, but he
was more concerned about me. And um,
I think I asked him if everything looked OK, and he says, Well, it looks
pretty bad down there. I was like, OK. Um, and then I start to feel very
lightheaded, like I want to black out. Like I'm getting really warm and
fuzzy and I want to close my eyes and go to sleep and And then there's
another nurse coming in and the voices are fading and the doctor says,
Give it to her in her leg and they give a shot to me on my right leg, and
I didn't really feel it because I had the epidural. But my husband's like
, you know, don't go to sleep. Talk to me. Um, and they inverted the bed,
so my head was lower, um, but everybody was getting pretty scared because
apparently he was having a really bad postpartum hemorrhage that he was
trying to stop. And he just said the blood was flowing out of me like a
river, you could hear it. And I was just like, oh, OK. Um, and, and then
he stitched me up and I didn't feel that either. Um, and then right away
after I was all done and stitched up, I was fine, but my husband was like
, are you OK? You know, you, you look really pale, you know, you're Are
you all right? He was really concerned and my mom was concerned. It wasn't
too much longer after maybe an hour or two. They came back in and they
hung this stuff called magnesium sulfate, which I didn't really know what
it was for. I think it was for, I mean, I know it's for now, but at the
time it was, I think it was for my blood pressure because it was so high,
and they had to keep that infusing through me for 24 hours and it made me
really groggy and sleepy and foggy and I didn't really feel like I got to
connect with my daughter because I was kind of out of it. And people came
and visited me and I was still kind of trying to visit with them. And
finally my husband's like, you don't have to talk. You can just rest. You
don't have to talk to anybody. Um, But that was for the preeclampsia that
I had. And you know, finally I think I stayed at the hospital like 3 or 4
days, which is a long time. Um, my daughter weighed 8 pounds 15 ounces.
She's a big girl. And Um, when it came time to go home. You know, he
carried her in the car seat and the nurse was walking in front of him as a
male nurse. And I was really surprised that considering what I went
through and how weak I felt because when they had me get in the shower, I
almost passed out, that they wanted me to walk to the car and I was kind
of like slow down, I'm holding onto the wall to get through the hallway
and these two men in front of me walking really fast to get to the car and
I had to tell them to slow down because I, you know, I'm having a hard
time. Um, But I, from what I remember talking to the doctor after I had a
postpartum hemorrhage, I had preeclampsia, I had a forceps delivery of my
daughter, who was really big. Um, I did not have diabetes because she's a
big baby. Um I had a really bad 3rd degree tear, so my bottom was pretty
sore for a couple of weeks after, like achy when I moved, um. And it was,
you know, I was exhausted and trying to breastfeed her after. um, I wanna
say I feel like I had a little postpartum depression after I had her
because I think it was during that time when they were really talking
about that postpartum psychosis and women wanting to hurt themselves and
their babies, and I was thinking in my mind, Is that what I'm going
through? Is that what I'm feeling? Do I want to hurt her? No, I don't want
to hurt her. Like these kind of mental thoughts going through my mind. And
I feel like I was really going through the motions for a long time with
her because I did. I don't know how to be a mom. You know, I know I need
to change her diaper and feed her and breastfeed her and. Um, put her to
bed, but like that really connecting mothering that you hear women talk
about like I don't feel like I had that. Um, I don't think it, it took me
a while before I even got the hang of that. I felt like that too. I felt
like it was my new job, right. Right, and, and that's another thing is it
did feel like it was my new job. Um, And my husband's family is very
traditional in the sense that the real, the role, the mole um. How do I
say the male female roles are very specific. Um, So I felt guilty if I
wasn't putting her to bed or holding her or, you know, giving her the
right kind of bath. And I, I have to say I had family around who made me
feel not very good to be a new mom, judging me, and even after I gave her
a bath the first time, my sister-in-law gave her a bath again and clean
her ears, and like, is she not clean enough? Am I not doing a good enough
job? Like it just felt very much like that. And I feel like today that
really um Helps me work with women better because, you know, I remember
all of those feelings with my first child. And just learning to be a mom,
knowing that there's judgment everywhere. Um, So I'm I'm pretty thoughtful
and encouraging to new moms because I I know what that felt like. Yeah, I
often say you're, you're being judged the moment you can save, right what
you eat, what you don't eat, what you do or walk or not walk or whatever
it is. There's no right way. You're always doing it wrong, a little bit
according to one person at least, you know, so you just have to do what is
right for you.
Um, I do want to say though with her pregnancy, um, because I grew up with
these traditions, I did do like a blessing way ceremony. With her and I've
had it with each of my kids before I went into labor or a month or so
before, just because that's one of our Dana traditions, um. So even though
like intellectually those ceremonies don't quite How do I say they They've
always been a part of my life, but the meaning and attention of them on
some level I didn't quite get until later.
I mean, I definitely.
Understand it more now and can reflect and be like, man, I'm really glad I
had those things done for me and I asked for them, even though I wasn't
quite clear about why.
Did you um did you have a name picked out or how did you come up with the
names? Do you know the sex? So we knew the sex of her. We knew she was a
girl. Um, my mother-in-law's twin sister is named Charlotte, and her twin
sister died when she was 5, I believe, from an illness. And so when she
said her name was Charlotte, it was like, Oh, we love that name. Nobody's
named Charlotte. So we we saved letting people know what her name was
until after she was born. So it was a nice blessing for her mom to hear
that we named her after her sister.
Um Was there anything special, you know, um, blankets or cribs or anything
that people made for you or that, you know, you still have, or, you know,
I know I still have August baby blanket. So in the Pueblo culture, they
have a naming ceremony, which is um
You're supposed to have it within 1 month, I think, after the baby is born.
I think with her we had it 3 months after. Um, we chose one of the elders
in the Pueblo to name her. And um they named her Nana Kotze. Um, which I
believe is yellow autumn leaf. And at the same time, I also got my ended
name when she got her ended name. And um So it was really nice to have a
naming ceremony. So this person who does the naming ceremony is supposed
to kind of guide them in the traditional way of living and teach them
things, you know. They have dances in the Pueblo that the girls, the women
have to dress up for and participate in. So to talk about those things and
to share that knowledge, I mean we don't, we're not born knowing how to
lace up or put on our moccasins or put on our wraps or know what side our
dresses need to be on or how to put on our sash belts like those things
are taught. So those are like things that you're. You're, um, the woman
who names you would basically teach you those things. So we. Usually you
can They get their name at the first light. So when the sun comes up, then
the light touches her and then you can name them. Um, or you go to the
Pueblo Kiva and they gave them a name then, um, during like different
dances and stuff. So, but she got her name that way.
With at the Kiva, no, she, she did it um in the Pueblo, but not during a
ceremony or dance. It was a separate occasion. And they give her a blanket
and they dress her up in her moccasins and her her clothing, which I still
have um. And so they just have this connection with this person throughout
their life.
That's a really, um, you know, a lovely concept and one of the things, you
know, talking to other women is this kind of strength of community and
family and that, um, you know, they're just really inter interconnected in
a very strong way. I think when it comes to that connection to family,
that was something that was really attractive to me. And different coming
from my Dane culture, from the Pueblo culture. Um, before I met my husband
, or actually, while we were dating, there were times I came to the pueblo
for dances and stuff and I helped bake bread and some of these like Female
engagement activities was really around cooking and baking bread and
helping community through their act and their skills. Um. And that's
something that because of culturally and spatially, the culture is very
different. Like, you know, my aunties and uncles live kind of a distance
away, um. Some are Catholic, some are Christian, some are NAC, some are,
you know, traditional Navajo, um, or they're all 3 or 4. And so. Here, you
know, you live close by, you see these women often, whether it's a funeral
or a ceremony or some something's happening in the community where you
will see them or work with them. So usually like stories about how we take
care of ourselves or just being with women is usually around the oven or
cooking or something like that. But that was very attractive to me because
I didn't grow up that way, um, because my parents are divorced, um, my mom
has a small family. I didn't have, I wasn't around a lot of women all the
time. I was usually by myself or with my brother and sister, um, and
there's challenges of having a blended family anyway, you know, my my step
siblings were in and out of our lives because they were either mad or You
know something like we just weren't always all together all the time. But
here, like, you know, there's specific times of the year where we're
always together, like feast day or corn dance or, you know, there's a
different specific activity that you know you're going to be together to
cook. So was your um Navajo language different than your husband's
language? It's very different. Oh yeah, yeah. So the dialect is different.
The how you pronounce things are different. The culture of women is
different. So In the Dane culture when we introduce ourselves, we're
saying, I was born for, so you're going through your matrilineal heritage
, explaining your clan system to introduce who you are, who you're born
for, who your grandmother is, and where they live. So you have this kind
of matriarchal history that you give when you introduce yourself. Um, in
the Pueblo culture, it's mostly patriarchal men. So, um.
I would say the feminists would probably not like it so much because
women's roles are very. Colonnistic in the sense that you're in the
kitchen, you're helpers, but I would disagree with that. I feel like um.
The Polo women are really strong, um, in their beliefs, and they work
really hard. But when something happens in the community, you see everyone
come together and they assume different roles and they work really well
together. It's more of a balance than one person doing everything or one
group of people doing everything. Um, it's always nice for me to see that.
Whereas in the Dana culture, um there's a lot of differences with death
and birth, whereas a pueblo, it's different, right? Um because death for
them is something they celebrate and they have their way of taking care of
their community members who've passed on, whereas like we don't want
anything to do with death. we can't be in a room with someone who's passed
away. We have to leave. Somebody else needs to take care of it. It's like
a taboo. It can make you sick. So how would you introduce yourself in the
Pueblo culture? Uh, I would just be, I mean, it, I don't speak Tewa, I
speak a little bit, but um. You know, there isn't an introduction.
Um, versus like, you know, if I were to go back home to, or if I were to
meet another Dana person out in the world, they'd want to know what my
clan was. Whereas in the Pueblo culture there's, I don't think there's,
I've never met anybody who wants to be introduced by their clan. Um, I I'm
somewhat respectful of kind of how they do things and they're kind of
private about things. So
I know some Tea, um. And some is used for inside the house and some used
for outside, um. But there isn't like a specific way to introduce yourself.
So, um, did your inclinations towards, you know, participating in um
helping women through birth and mid midwifery. Like begin after that first
birth, or did it emerge later on? It emerged over time, so. Obviously I've
always been interested in birth. Um, really it was spurred by. Going when
I finished my nursing degree, I was pregnant with my. Second child. And um
I started working as a nurse on labor delivery. And I was probably 6 or 7
months pregnant. And I was busy on my feet all day long. And he was
probably my biggest baby. Um, but I was, I mean, I mean, the nurses were
in awe of me because it's like, Nicole, you were pregnant and you kept up
with all of us and you weren't complaining or tired. Like I was just busy
working. Um, but that's how much I loved what I was doing as I really
loved working with women and making them feel good and comfortable and
listened to even as a nurse. What actually pushed me to become a midwife
was, um, I worked at IHS hospitals in I, I can't say that. I worked at an
IHS hospital, basically, uh, a medical surgical and. I really didn't want
to work there. Um, I was really happy working at my labor and delivery job
, but because I just had paid for my education, I had to fulfill my
obligation for them paying for my education by providing them 2 years of
my nursing experience as a job. Um, And I have to tell you, going from
this really nice labor and delivery unit where people work together and
you are expected to be nice to women and It just was a very cohesive warm
group. I went to this other space that was dark and people weren't nice to
each other and they complained and. You know, I felt like some of the
women didn't take pride in their work. I felt like they were just there to
retire. Um, and maybe I'm wrong, but you know, I just didn't see that
pride that I saw in the other nurses I worked with there, with some of the
nurses who worked there. And It was really a disappointment for me to see.
Then behave, the nurses behave this way.
And then to work with a community, my community of people. Um,
That wasn't the best care I feel like they could have gotten. Um, an
example would be because they they knew I had labor and delivery
experience and it's really only been a year. I had been in a labor and
delivery nurse. They had me do some Um, shifts over at labor and delivery
in the NHS hospital. And at the time there was a lot of turmoil happening
because the IHS hospital was going to close their labor and delivery
because they didn't have a high number of women birthing there, um, and
their OB doctor was going to retire and they weren't going to replace him.
There was a couple of nurse midwives who work there and they were white
women, um. That were caring for women, or at least native women coming for
care. There was one Navajo nurse I worked with and she was very nice. And
Uh, my first encounter with a midwife there was I was admitting a patient
who was in labor to one of the really small rooms, and they were
monitoring her on the fetal monitor and I was going to check her blood
pressure. So I put the blood pressure cuff on her arm and this nurse
midwife, who's an Anglo woman, was staring me down the whole time, like so
intimidating, staring me down as I'm putting this blood pressure cuff on
this patient and I'm like, why are you Intimidating me like this is not
appropriate. Um, and as I was getting to leave, you know, she goes over
there and takes the blood pressure cuff off before I could. Like just very
like aggressive intimidation and. At that point I was like, I really don't
want to work over here if this is how these ladies are. Um, and I talked
to this Navajo nurse who was there and I said, Well, why do you work here
? This place is so disappointing and dreary and people are not nice to
each other, so the morale is not good. And she said, you know, I feel like
there's definitely some racism that goes on here. Between non-native
nurses and providers and patients, but I feel like these women need to see
a native woman, a native nurse taking care of them and so I stay. So I was
like, OK. Um, there was another shift I worked there with a a woman from
my community who. Was having a baby, her second baby, and having a
C-section, um. And the story with her is she had lost a baby. At a at this
hospital in labor. And I'm not sure of all the details, but she, the baby
had died. And so she was coming back to have another baby, and I was
asking her why are you here to have this baby? Like why can't you go
someplace else? And she says, well, I don't feel I could go I could go
anywhere else. Um, and I was just like, how awful to go to a place where
your baby died, to not feel like you have options. Um, and maybe it was at
the fault of the provider. I don't know. Like this to me it feels wrong.
There was a labor and delivery nurse who sounds like she was a nurse
practitioner. Who had just the nastiest attitude. She would put like 18
gauge IVs in everybody, which is one of the biggest. Um, Um, IVs to put in
women. I mean, you really don't need a big one to transfuse blood, but she
would go above and beyond for that. And she said, I'm afraid they're going
to have a postpartum hemorrhage. I'm just being safe. But I'm like, that's
not right. But at one point during working there, she definitely gave me a
piece of her mind, and I was crying and I was like, I'm done working here
. I don't need to deal with people like you. Like it was just one incident
after another where people were just very rude, intimidating. Even my
nursing supervisor was intimidating.
And so I was more than happy to give up, give up my 2 years and then get
out of there, um. But it was during that time I approached one of the
Anglo midwives there about midwifery because I was applying. I had my
application. And so I just asked her casually, Well, do you consider is
midwifery a mid-level? Like how would you define that? And I was just
curious. She didn't know I was applying. I just had this question for her
and she like totally went off on me. We're not mid-level providers, we're
healthcare providers, we're nurse midwives, we're not physician extenders.
So it was just right away lashing out at me about just a question I was
asking her, and I'm just like, jeez, here's another opportunity where she
could have maybe helped me with my application, but she totally Like I'm
like, I don't wanna talk to you then. Um, So I Seeing my community, being
careful like that, not having, feeling like they have options like that
really did something inside of me because I was like, I can't I can't sit
back and do nothing. We can't just allow this to happen, you know, this is
not OK. Um. And I had to really struggle with my husband and his family
about going back to school, because again, we had these very traditional
roles. I had just finished nursing school, why do I want to go back to
school. My kids are little, why do I need to go to school now? Can I do it
later? What about the kids? So I had a lot of um Doubt pushed in my
direction about my path, and I felt really guilty because I wanted to be a
good mom. And was I being a bad mom if I decided to go back to school. So
I held off not applying to nurse midwifery school, and the following year
, there were some more things happening in our pueblo. I saw just some
really heartache, hardship, people not being taken care of again, and I
was just like, I don't care what you guys say, I'm going to go to school.
This is just, this feels right to me. Um, it probably took a good 6
months before my family, my husband and his family finally kind of
recognized what I was doing and why, and he definitely became more
supportive of going back to school and what I was doing and how much I
really loved it. And he saw me change completely to being kind of this
lost mom trying to figure out what I'm doing and if I'm going to do. If
I'm doing it to everyone's expectations, to being more in charge of who I
am and what I'm doing, and I don't care what anybody says, this is what I
am going to do because this makes me happy. And so he was very supportive
after that.
Um, so How was your, did you have uh preeclampsia with your second birth?
I didn't. My second birth, I had, so I was working as a nurse and labor
and delivery and um actually correction, no, I was in nursing school,
about to finish my last semester in nursing school at UNM. And the nurses
were more than happy that I was pregnant because they get to feel my belly
and all of that. Um, and we had this woman.
Come into our nursing class and show us or teach us about hypno birthing,
and I was like, hey, this is really interesting hypno birthing. Um, prior
to my pregnancy with him, I was not happy with the first doctor I had seen
, so I went to see different doctors before I found the one I really liked.
Um, at that point, I'd had two miscarriages, um, before I got pregnant
with my son Daniel. And after my second miscarriage. Um, well, during my
second miscarriage, I went to the ER because I was bleeding so much that
my husband had to take me to the emergency room and they, um, There was
this man there who was the doctor on call, and he was so sweet. He was
holding my hand. Everything's going to be fine. We're going to go take you
back to do a D&C, um, and my husband was kind of waiting in a chair right
before they took me back and he said, Hold on, you know, had had them stop
the gurney before I went back to the OR and made sure my husband gave me a
hug and a kiss and reassured us both that things were going to be fine.
And after that I was like, what's this doctor's name? This guy is exactly
who I want to take care of me. And so I probably went through two OB
doctors before I found him. And so he took care of me through my whole
pregnancy. It was very lovely. He, he gave me a handshake and kissed me on
the cheek. It was like visiting my grandpa every day, you know, very just
very kind guy. Um, so it was a very different pregnancy to begin with
because there was communication, there was a relationship. I felt good
about who I was seeing for my care. I was healthy. I wasn't like I don't
feel like I gained too much weight, um, I wasn't horribly sick with him in
the beginning. Um, I was kind of toying with the idea of having a home
birth because with one of my miscarriage, we, we did see a midwife in
Albuquerque who actually I heard on the radio before I got pregnant. She
was doing um She was, how would I say? She was talking about midwifery on
the news, on the radio news, and she was so intelligent. Like she was
belting out research and evidence-based care about for what she did and
how she did it, and she had doctors coming in challenging her, but she
just knew her stuff. Like she was very knowledgeable and I was like.
Midwifery is pretty awesome. Um, but I sought her out at a home birth
practice in Albuquerque, but that pregnancy ended a miscarriage. But after
the first pregnancy, my family was like, you know, don't deliver at home,
you're not healthy enough, you need to think about the safety of this baby
and deliver in the hospital. So I was like, OK, um. But Fast forwarding to
my nursing education, um, I learned about this hypno birthing and I was
like, yeah, I want to do that. And so I met with this woman later and she
was like, Well, you're a little late in your pregnancy, but we could
probably still do it. So we paid for it. It was kind of pricey, it was
like $800 but I was like really committed. I'm like, I really don't want
pain medicine. Um, I really want to do this natural, and I think this
hypno birthing is going to work and my husband's kind of like, OK. You
know, kind of giving me the look like you're crazy, but uh it's your baby
, it's, let's just do it. And so he did some exercises with me at home. We
listened to music and she came and talked to us and so. I went through
this kind of fast forward hypno birthing process. I remember even giving a
folder of information to my doctor because that was part of the process.
He probably was rolling his eyes at me because most doctors don't like to
do that sort of thing, but I was like, this is what I'm going to do. Um,
and my my husband's family was kind of like, are you hypno birthing? What
is that about? And they were kind of heckling me too because they thought
it was a little bit out there, but I didn't care. I was like, you know,
it's going to work. And, and sure enough it did. When I went into the
hospital, I played my music, I had my headphones on. I think there's even
a picture of me with um on the birthing ball kind of swaying back and
forth, and the room is dim. Like I had a little more control this time and
I liked it. Um, my sister-in-law, my mom, my mother-in-law was there. My
mom didn't come. But it was a very different space than it was the first
time, and I realized I had to say about what I wanted and didn't want. And
they still put an IV in me, but it was just very nice. I remember that
like soft voice in my headphones was like, Bree, you know, very calm. Your
baby is opening and coming down. It was just very calming. Um, and
everyone thought I looked very comfortable and collected and at some point
I was like, OK, it's time to push. And they were like, What? So they put
me in bed and You know, I think 1 or 2 pushes and my son was out and they
were just amazed that I was so calm and collected and, you know, the
contractions, I definitely felt them and they're really hurt, but I feel
like I could handle them. Like they're manageable. I wasn't out of control.
And after that, my sister-in-law even wanted to borrow my tapes and like
she saw me and wanted to do that for herself, and I'm just like, yeah, it
is possible to have a nice natural birth the way I want. Were the
contractions different when you went through it naturally to the Pitocin?
Can you think about? Yeah, yeah, they were different. They had a pattern
of their own. They were more manageable, gradual, like definitely during
the end like. I don't know, it kind of reminds me of the I've been going
be. Like that last contraction was really, really uncomfortable. Like it
hurt. I had tears in my eyes because it was so bad, but it was time to
push. Like I just remember like I gotta push now. And that feeling of like
needing to push, like it's just undescribable. There's all this pressure
in my bottom like it just, I just have to push. And so everyone was pretty
happy to have my son out, and he was a big boy. He was 9 pound 4 ounce
baby. Um, big guy, and I'm just like, where did you fit? Did you tear? Um
, I had a little tear, like, but not like the first time. Yeah. So it was
, it was an all-round better experience and I really I, I, I wasn't sad
about it. I felt really good about it. And I was like, great, you know,
everything went well and I had them in the summer, like in May. So I had
just finished my nursing program, graduated and then I, you know, I had
them in the summertime. That was nice. Had you been using mineral oil or
anything to kind of soften the perineum? No, I wasn't, I didn't use
anything. I wasn't that aware of my body. Yeah, nobody even talked to me
about that at the time, I don't think. But it wasn't even the doctor who
delivered. I mean, it wasn't the doctor I've been seeing for my prenatal
care who I, who delivered him or assisted with the delivery with somebody
else. But yeah, it was a really nice delivery. And was it different in the
fact that like after the baby was born, you were, you know, not fainting,
you were not on medication? Like was your bonding experience different?
I think I, I feel like I recovered faster. Um, my husband, after I had him
, cause there's a picture of me after I had him, my hair is to the side,
my makeup so smeared and um. So some of the some of the child preparation
courses talk about when women go through transition like that phase of 8
to 10 centimeters, like your sensory is heightened. Smells, sounds, or
you're really focused. And I remember while I was in labor, my husband, I
think he ate something and I was like trying to tell him to get some gum,
and he says, Oh, you want gum? I said, no, for you. You, your breath
smells. And he's like, OK. Um, but he also, I told him, I said, I want
barbecue for my dinner after I eat, after I had the baby. So he had got me
barbecue after I had my son. Um, because I was starving because they
starve you when you're having your baby. But I felt great. Like the next
day I was, I was able to move around. I didn't feel tired. Um, he latched
onto the breast immediately after he was born and just kind of camped out
there for a couple of days. I never had issues with breastfeeding in the
sense that they didn't latch or I didn't want to breastfeed. To me,
breastfeeding was always normal because my mom breastfed my brother and
sister. You know, she just lift up her shirt and put him on the boob and
that was normal to me and so. As my kids, I breast fed all of them. I
always, I didn't have enough milk for them. I don't know if it's because
they were really big babies or because I was always busy working, but I
just, you know, I always had to supplement with formula. But yeah, I felt
great after I had him. So it was a really different experience from my
first.
Well that's so nice that you had that follow-up experience that was, you
know, a healthier one for you and that, you know, it was more of what you
, what you intended.
Um, so in your position as a midwife, what role do you see that you're
playing in the the birth experience? You know, um, Obviously you're
keeping the women healthy, you're monitoring things. Can you elaborate a
little bit on that process? I would say as a midwife with working, how I
work with women during their pregnancies is really just being really
supportive. Like, like you said, like, like I've talked to other women
about, there's so many negative. Um, How do I say people? Watching you as
you become a mother, and it's not always positive. You gain too much
weight, you're eating the wrong foods. But women already know what they
need to do to be healthy. Um, it's just a matter of them making that
decision for themselves. So I try and be more positive. You know, I have a
lot of women who worry about how much weight they're gaining with their
pregnancy, or, oh my gosh, I didn't take my prenatal vitamin yesterday
because I felt bad, um, like they're really afraid. Um, and it's really
difficult to navigate today as a new mom because there's so much
information out there. Like if you were to Google something, everyone's
got cancer and everybody's dying. Or, oh my gosh, this is a C-section
situation. Like they're just really not fed good information sometimes.
And so part of my work with them is to navigate that with them. Like, well
, this is a reliable source. This is not a reliable source. Um, I also
remember how traumatic my first birth was, and I don't ever want anyone to
come away from working with me feeling like their birth was a traumatic.
Um, I know that has a long term effect on them. And so we do a lot of work
at the very end talking about their birth. Who is there? What does it look
like? What does it smell like? What's the worst case scenario? Um, and
just really reassuring that that's their space, they have control. If they
don't want an IV, they can say no. Like they have the power to do these
things. I don't think a lot of women. Know that they have that power when
they go to the hospital because it's just assumed that these are the
policies. This is what we do, this is how we do it every time. And I tell
them, well, no, it's not really a policy. The nurses are used to doing it
one way, but it doesn't mean you can't do it another way. And really if we
choose to deviate from what they're used to, you're actually teaching them
another way and they're going to get really comfortable with normal
natural birth because they don't see that very often. And they're like, oh
, OK. Um, but I also know women go into pregnancy and birth, well,
specifically birth with some assumptions that either I'm going to be there
the whole time, or it's going to be fast, like on TV, um, so I try my best
to talk through those things so that they don't have those assumptions and
they're more prepared for what it could be like or what it is like. Um.
Because I'm also a sexual abuse survivor. I know those feelings of being
not in control of my body. When those things happen to me as a child, like
those things can also contribute to women's experience when they're
pregnant. Um, and so I'm really thoughtful about working with those women
who had been sexually abused or raped at some point because those feelings
of being not in control come back when you're pregnant. And so, um.
You know, again, we talk through what's the worst case scenario that could
happen. And navigating all of the tests and the ultrasounds and the
necessity for all of it or not, um. So it's, you know, it's really just, I
feel like a guide and just someone who helps them feel good about
themselves. Um, I definitely feel it's challenging for me because of the
The word midwife has a lot of. Things attached to it depending on Who is
pushing the midwifery movement forward. So even though historically
midwifery has always been our on our Native American communities.
Some of the understanding about that person and their role in our native
communities has kind of. Not been talked about like it used to be. Um And
then you have this very western influence of midwifery, which is the anime
Gaskin, you know. A lot of women talked to me about spiritual midwifery
that she wrote, and I'm like I've never read her stuff. I didn't even know
who she was when I became a midwife. Um, and so there's assumption that.
Because I'm a midwife and I'm working with women in the hospital that I'm
very like natural, like I have this natural knowledge of herbs and that,
you know, I'm really against. Epidurals or I'm against fetal testing or
ultrasounds, blood test, which is not true. Um, and then you have this
other part of midwifery where it's very professional and licensed,
polished. We are, we are a profession of polished, educated women who work
with women during not just their pregnancy, but through the many changes
in their lifespan and that we are skilled and educated to take care of
these issues as they come up. So there's that part of it too. Um, so it's
really hard sometimes when I have a woman who wants this very natural
normal birth and maybe she has some medical issues that wouldn't allow
certain things and I have to tell her, you know, because of this, you
probably should get extra testing or you probably should get genetic
testing done because you are at risk because of these things. And some
women get mad. They're like, you know, I, you know, they assumed I was a
midwife and I was going to agree with them, but you know. It's a, it's a
fine balance. I can't. You don't come to me because I agree with you. You
come to me because I'm knowledgeable on these things and I'm, it's my.
It's my job to be truthful with you and give unbiased information. And
sometimes they want to hear it and sometimes they don't. Do you think the
um practice of having a midwife involved in the birth process is um
becoming more common or is it still uh uh like a very small percentage of
women that Are you thinking like in like in the hospital that you work in
the area that you're in. So the, the hospital I work, there's always been
midwives. Always. When I worked as a nurse, there was a midwife there.
Before I was a nurse, there was a group of midwives. So there's just been
a flux of midwives. For a short time while I was finishing school, there
was not a midwife there. um, and so. When I went back to work in Los
Alamos, there was a history of midwifery in the community. There's also a
lot of women who birth at home with um home birth midwives, and so I
really support homebirth. So it was really nice to have this kind of
community of women already who support midwifery. Um, or they've been
someplace where they've gotten care by a midwife.
Like the um, in another state or whatever, but New Mexico in general is a
very midwifery friend friendly state. Um, there's not as many midwives out
of Albuquerque.
As um In some places, so like. I'm the only nurse midwife in Los Alamos,
and Presbyterian and Espanola or Espanola Hospital, there's no there's no
midwives there. Um, in Taos, there's some midwives who birth in the
hospital and I believe birth with women in a birth center. um Las Vegas,
there are a group of midwives, but the hospital closed. I mean, their
labor and delivery closed, and so those women have to go to Santa Fe to
have their baby. Um, Santa Fe has quite a few midwives who are home birth
in hospital certified nurse midwives. But I feel like I do work in
somewhat of a provider shortage area for women because I get women from
Cuba and from, you know, always sometimes up to the Colorado border to
come see me for care because there's no midwife up that way, or even a
hospital close enough to get to.
So you have 3 children. So do you want to talk about the third birth? My
3rd pregnancy, this is the one I was working as a nurse. Um, he was really
a surprise. I didn't think we had just moved into our house in San Defonso
Pablo, and
I have to honestly say that the moment I was pregnant with each of them, I
knew it. Like my body temperature went up. I felt like I had the flu. I
just didn't feel good and I was just thinking, I bet you I'm pregnant. Um
, And I took the pregnancy test and it was positive, but it was really
early. Um, and so I didn't really want to be excited about it because I'd
had 3 miscarriages already and I wasn't ready to tell anybody and. I think
this is a normal thing that women do when you had so many miscarriages.
You're cautious, you're excited, you're somewhat optimistic, but you're
like, Well, I'm not going to get attached until it's past a certain point
and I know this is really going to stay. And so it was like that with him.
And you know, I was nauseous with him and exhausted and working as a
nurse, but I didn't, it wasn't like bedridden sick type thing. Um, And I
remember telling my husband, you know, we're pregnant, and he's like,
Great. And I said, Well, let's see what happens. You know I've had 3
miscarriages. I don't know what this one's going to be like, so we'll
we'll just see what happens. And I got past the 12 weeks and the 13 weeks
and the 14 weeks, and I was like, OK, but he's going to stay. But it was
definitely a lot sooner than I would have liked because my son Daniel had
just been born um like a year before, or almost a year before. So it's
really closely spaced pregnancies. Um, And I went through a pregnancy
healthy, didn't have a lot of weight gain, but I also worked a lot in Los
Alamos as a labor and delivery nurse, and I hardly ate and I I just was
just really busy. And before I moved here, I had already connected with a
doctor in Santa Fe and had planned to have my baby in Santa Fe, but he
kept to like having this false labor pattern at the very end. And He, I
would be because we would go walking in the Pueblo. Um, all of us would go
out with our strollers and we'd walk, my husband and I. But he would do
this like I'd have these contractions and I'm like, OK, it's time. With my
other two pregnancies, I never had this false labor. Like once labor
started, I, I had a baby, but not for David. Like it was a day of
contractions and then they would stop and a day of contractions and they
would stop. And it's like all these false alarms cause we had to figure
out who was going to watch our other two if we went to the hospital. And
my mother-in-law wanted to be there. Um, and so we had to always like put
the people on red alert that maybe it's today and ended up not happening
until finally, you know, in the middle of the night, probably around 3 in
the morning, I was sleeping and I could feel these contractions starting
to get strong and I was like, Oh, maybe it's now. And I remember walking
into our living room and just kind of walking to see how these
contractions, if they were real, if they were getting stronger, and they
were getting pretty strong. I had to Kind of lean over something and
breathe through it before it ended. And that's when I finally was telling
, I went to get my husband. I was like, OK, it's time, these contractions
are getting pretty strong. Between contractions, I was fine. I was talking
, smiling, but with a contraction, oh, I was not happy. So, um, a neighbor
actually came and got our kids and my husband and I went to the hospital
and. And it was funny cause they have a triage and um they took me up from
the emergency room in a chair. And you know I was talking, smiling, and
then I get a contraction and then I wouldn't talk. And then I got to
triage and she's looking at me and I already know what she's thinking.
She's like, Oh, she's not in labor, because that's what I would say as a
labor and delivery nurse. You're too happy, you're smiling. This isn't
quite labor yet. And I was like, Nope, this is labor. Like this is the
real thing. So she was kind of being lackadaisy with me. She put me in a
triage room, was kind of taking her time. And then she checked me and she
looks at me, she says, you're 6.5 centimeters. And I was like, I knew it.
So they, they put me back in a room right away and they put an IV in. Um,
And the doctor from the night shift was there and I hadn't quite made a
plan. I wasn't as well thought out as my second. I just wanted to have a
baby. And she was, she came in with the nurses and was like, OK, we're
gonna break a bag of water. And I'm like, why? She's she's, and I said I
don't want my bag of water broken cause I knew it would make my attraction
stronger. But she was like, What do you mean you don't want your bag of
water broken? I'm like, I don't want anything done. I just want to labor.
So she was kind of talking to her nurse, looking at them like, Is this
woman crazy? She doesn't want her bag of water broken. Like she doesn't,
she really wasn't gonna ask me. She was just gonna do it.
We, we can pause, yeah, absolutely.
They're already off, but it's fine. But she was kind of really surprised
that I was declining her her amniotomy to not let her break my bag of
water. But I felt good to say no. I was like, Oh, she can't come just
break my bag of water because she feels like it. Um, we're just trying to
speed it up. I think, I think this doctor was trying to speed it up, but I
didn't know that. It just, I just don't understand why she just came in
and assumed she was gonna break my bag of water, um. But after she left,
um, I labored some more and it was probably maybe 7 or 8, and they were
getting pretty intense. And then I just was like, you know what? I don't
want to feel this. I just want to have a baby. I want my epidural. So I
asked for epidural. My husband's like, Are you sure? I think you can do
this and I'm like, no, I just, I just want to have my baby. I don't, it
doesn't really matter to me. So the anesthesiologist came and he put an IV
in my my hand and it didn't work, so they put another one in. And I
remember them like feeling pressure on my back as they put the needle in.
And I got somewhat comfortable, but the epidural wasn't that, it didn't
work that well. I could still feel lots of cramping down low. And then, um
, And then my mother-in-law finally came because she wanted to be there at
the birth. It was probably. Probably around maybe 10 o'clock. And finally
I was, I felt this really bad contraction again and my husband's on one,
on my right side and my mother-in-law's on my left side and they're
holding my hand and like I got tears in my eyes because it was so painful.
And then I was like, I got to push now. And, and so they call the nurse
in and I'm pushing without them asking me to push. And I pushed and the
nurse is like, OK, stop pushing because the head was just coming. So the
doctor came in really quick and it was a different doctor. And she put her
gloves on and I probably two pushes my son was out and he was, he was
small. He was like a 7 pounder. Just it's like I could have sneezed and he
would have came out because he was a lot smaller than my other two. But it
was really easy. Um, he got on the breast and, you know, it was just a
really quick and easy delivery. It was not like at all like my other two.
Um, I think back and I'm like, man, I could have probably done it without
an epidural. It probably would have been faster cause it probably stopped
my contractions or kept them, made them slower.
Um, So it was, it was a really nice delivery though, it was fast and
within 2 days we went home and. My kids, my boys are like 16 months apart
and it was like having twins. So everywhere I went, it was like somebody's
strapped into the car seat, one wants to run away. Like that for me was
like, OK, I'm done having kids. But I also really was interested in
becoming a midwife at that point and I knew if I had more kids, I wouldn't
be able to do that. So I chose to have a tubal,
um, and I I didn't quite consult my husband. I just said, this is what I
want to do, and he's like, Are you sure? Isn't there something else? I'm
like, Nope, I don't want to have any more kids. And he was kind of
bothered that I didn't make him part of the decision, but I was like, it's
my body. I get to make that decision. But we, you know, my kids have, I, I
was that mom for many years going to the grocery store where I had like a
car seat and two toddlers in the in the stroller trying to, I mean in the
car in a shopping cart trying to go grocery shopping. Like that was, that
was me. I mean, I would take them places to eat or by myself and it was
tough.
Is when you reflect back on those through through birth and your
experience birthing, um, do you have any word or phrasing of words that
kind of um reflects that experience to you? I know they were very nuanced
and different experiences, but, um, you know, there's obviously things
that are similar, you're giving birth, but um, is there anything that um.
Like I said, a word or phrasing of words that, you know, kind of
summarizes that for you, summarizes the experience of of giving birth to
your children. It's a hard question, but we're we um organize the stories
and themes, and so it's a way of kind of like seeing if you already kind
of have a theme in mind, you know.
I don't know, I think I would say transformation.
For all of my kids, I definitely.
Hold on. Hey, Kansas, we're we're recording, so any little noise in the
background, they're gonna hear it. Yeah, can you? We're almost done now
and then I and then you can come back in.
I think she's gonna close the door.
Maybe not. Um,
There he is. Yeah, I would say transformation would be a big theme for my
kids. Like I said, I came into motherhood not first, not wanting to get
married, right? I was going to be this career woman. And I'm married and
something I'm having kids unplanned but happy about it and really coming
into myself as a woman, as a mom, with my becoming a mom with each of
their pregnancies. Definitely being really challenged by family and
perceptions about my role of being a woman and a mom, um, and challenged
in a in a in a way that
That I've, I was, I've been forced to kind of hold my ground, you know,
who am I? What am I about, um. And being OK with being myself, if even if
nobody agrees with me. Um, I feel like the kids have really brought out
that mama bear in me, you know, like I'm very protective of them, um. But
over the years, like I've just, there've been little things that they've
done that have just been sorry.
I guess the word is a blessing.
I mean, it's really easy to. Get caught up when they're babies and feel
some resentment that you're tired and you can't take a shower, or you're
always responsible for them, or you can't go to the restaurant because
they're they're crying or making too much noise, or they want to get down
and play with stuff. But it's interesting as they get older, like you
really get a sense of who they are. And they really enjoy spending time
with you and. Wanna do things together. It's such a, it's almost like a
role a role reversal. Um, And they definitely keep me young. Like they all
have their own little personality and pull me into things that maybe
wouldn't do. Um, But more or less make me more relaxed and don't not to
take life so serious. Like my son will say, let's watch this show together
, and he likes to really cuddle with me. And my other one, you know, he's
still very Daniel, still very childlike and likes to go watch, you know,
he's 12, so he'll go watch like kids' cartoons still, and he's still into
that. And my daughter, you know, she's 15. She likes to go to the spa and
we listen to the same music and we share clothes and I don't think anybody
ever tells you that that could be the future when you have these kids and
you're giving up so much of yourself in the beginning, like it just I
think that's really unexpected.
And you know, in my twenties, I probably wouldn't be baking bread and
making jam and maybe I resented that because that was a female role I
didn't quite identify with and. I don't know. Now I really enjoy it and it
feels good to be home and. You know, there's so many more awful and
challenging things in this world that. To build this little cocoon of like
home like that's something that I'm responsible for. And some of the same
things my mom did for me growing up like cedaring off my kids with our
feather and our. Her sage, to bless her home and to bless them. Like those
are the things I do with them now. So they're going to associate those
smells and acts with their childhood and hopefully carry it on with their
kids. And so, even though their childhood is going to be different and not
playing in the river and doing all the things that I did, like you know I
have the responsibility to show them things and experience things that I
didn't, which is really nice. And You know, I Uh, my big goal with them is
just to be loving, caring children and be respectful of people.
Um, My only hope is that they find a career or something that really
inspires them and their passion. It didn't matter what it is. So it feels
good to me whenever I go visit with their teachers that that's, you know
what they say about my kids is they're really well behaved and they're
kind and they're helpful. And that's the best I could ask. It's not so
much about the grades or, you know, that sort of thing. It's like what
kind of people are they gonna be?
Perfect, perfect ending line, don't you think? Yeah, do you have any
questions, Ashley? covered a lot of ground. Yes, um. So good for you're a
good speaker.
There's so many interesting facets of your story that I think it's gonna
make it slightly challenging. But I'm so this might be kind of delicate
and it's OK if you don't want to talk about it, but one thing that you're
talking about that I think is really fascinating could be really helpful
for other people and something that we haven't heard at all is this idea
that you've been um a victim of sexual assault and how that kind of trauma
was revisited. Um, with pregnancy, I don't know if that's something that
you're willing to talk about your own experience of having to revisit that
just last night, actually one of our speakers, um, she, she works with
women of sexual assault and trafficking and everything. She works as a
counselor. Yeah, we actually need to connect you we talked to her about
you definitely wanted to contact, yeah, you could definitely connect us.
Um, You know, working through my sexual abuse, and I want to be clear,
it's not just, I think sexual abuse is a very nice term. I mean it was
rape. I was raped as a 5 year old, as a teenager, I mean early teen, and
then as a teenager at a party. Um, and definitely that has impacted me as
a woman in my life, not just as a mother, but just my own self-worth and
Definitely between the age of 20 and 30, as I was becoming a new mom, I
was very much working through those issues of anger, frustration with my
family and With myself and with my husband's family, um, and feeling
worthy to be married to this wonderful man who, you know, really has
stayed by my side through my My own journey of finding who I am. Um, I
have to say I haven't always been so. Kind to him because I've had my own
issues that I've had to deal with. Um, And Even as my role is of being a
mother, like I, I have to say I really.
I really resented it in the beginning. I, I feel like I was meant to do
something else. You know, I'm a mom, um, there's also some. Cultural
connotations to being a mother.
When I was growing up with my brother and sister, um. People thought they
were my children and. Because I grew up in a border town, people. We're
like, Oh, she's a teen, she's Native American. Poor thing, she's having
babies. She's not ever going to do anything with her life. So that was
kind of that kind of pride that I was falling into this role of being your
typical Dana woman who's not going to do anything and it's going to have
babies after babies after babies. And I definitely feel like women who
didn't know me, saw me with my kids and assumed that I wasn't married or
my kids are not well behaved. Um, but there's this perceptions about who
they are and who I was. Um, and so part of. Going through that motherhood
, being knowing my history was um.
Kind of grieving that that childhood that I didn't have and then I had to
grow up really fast. You know, I didn't have a 21 party. I had just had my
baby, I had gotten married, didn't have a bachelorette party when I got
married. Like there's some milestones that I missed out on because I had
kids early, and I resented that. Um, There is also some family, um.
Disputes happening between myself and my husband's sister. That was really
not positive for me. I was around a woman who was very negative and unkind
to me and feeling like I had to deal with that by myself, or everyone kind
of allowed it. Kind of fit into this whole like I'm not worthy to be
married to this really nice man. And that because I'm a mom, I'm supposed
to not want things anymore, and that the careers that I maybe had thought
I was going to move forward with is not attainable anymore because now I'm
a mom. Like this is all I should care about. This is all I'm ever going to
be. And to me that was really disappointing. Like for me, I felt
disappointed in myself. Um,
There's still pictures I look at, um. From when my kids were babies that I
looked really checked out. Like I'm not really focused and I'm not really
talking. And I remember those times where I feel almost out of body, like
, oh, I'm supposed to smile, so I'm going to smile now, or, oh, I'm
supposed to really enjoy this with my kids, so I'm going to act like I'm
having a good time, where my husband could see that's what was happening
and he would be like, you know, why are you not enjoying this? And I felt
resentful. Just like, why am I, am I supposed to enjoy this? This is work.
This is really hard. You know, why am I supposed to smile through this?
It feels like work. Um, And so My kids really helped me want better for
myself and to really fight for who I am and what I am and to fight for
what I want. Um.
And midwifery school for me was part of that transformation because I had
to fight for it. And once I saw the many options women had.
It kind of made me reflect on what I had with my kids and what had
happened to me and. So it was like I was able to feel like I had an
identity outside of being a mom or this poor woman who had kids too early
, right. So I don't know if that makes sense in regards to the to the
abuse I experienced, um. It's interesting that I chose this hypno birthing
as one of my child preparation options because I've heard midwives say
this all the time like, well. The hypno birthing allows moms to check out
during their birth, during their labor. And I'm like, Well, did it allow
me to check out, which you do when you've been raped. You check out. You
go to another place while somebody's doing something awful to your body.
Like it's like you can do this to my body, but you can't do this to my
mind. I'm still who I am. Um, Did I choose hypno birthing because that's
what it did for me and I would say no. I felt every one of those
contractions. I was fully committed and part of that decision making about
my body and my birth. And You know, it's, it's not true. I still felt
everything. I just felt like I had more control. And I remember that
because when I work with women who've been raped in their pregnancy, I
know those feelings that they want control. They didn't have control when
this thing happened to them. And that they want trust and building trust
with them is really important. And an example of that is I had a woman I
worked with who had a really bad rape history. She came into my office
just shaking, and she had sweat on her lip. And she first thing she said
to me is, what are you going to do to me? And I was like, oh, Uh, let's
talk. So what I did is she sat in one chair and I sat one below her. So we
weren't at eye level, it was below. And we start talking about what she
was afraid of, what this was going to look like, how I was going to work
with her, that we would do this together and that I wasn't going to do
anything she didn't want to do. Um, she calmed down afterward and we
worked through her whole pregnancy and the woman I saw at the beginning
and the woman I saw at the end was completely different. Like just very
proud of herself. She felt very good about her experience and you know I
think about my experience and my birth and my experience with my abuse.
Like I know how good it feels to have that courage and that strength to
make those decisions. And to feel like those are supported decisions. And
that's what I try and work with women now as a midwife because I know how
important it is and If without it, it's like, you know, I'm I'm really
traumatizing them and I don't ever want to do that. It's like I, I don't
wanna be the rapist.
Yeah, I think that was a really good, a wonderful answer, yeah. Is there
anything else you want to add before we?
Yeah, you're incredible. You did a great job. I'm gonna hit stop.