This is Boris Solis interviewing Cynthia A. Spicer on June 21, 2016 at
1:45 p.m. for the Creative Push project. OK, great. So if you can take us
back to um the father of your first born and the conception. Was it a
wanted pregnancy? Was it planned? No, it wasn't planned. No. And was it
wanted? Yes, it was very much wanted.
Anything else? Were you guys together for a long time? Were you trying or
I mean you weren't we were together. He was quite a bit older than me. I
was um. 17 or 18, he was 32.
So, um, So you just were smitten with the 32 year old man. He had some an
error about him or something? Well, I, yeah, kind of like an authority
figure in my life is the way I think I took him, you know. And um do you
want me to talk more than the questions you're asking me? Oh yeah, you can
totally take off. This is just like to kind of get the ball, OK, um, yeah
, he worked for my grandfather and I was staying with my grandma and
grandpa at the time, um. And um, You know, he just seemed like somebody
that would be stable in my life and um. I, I've been out on my own ever
since I was very young and worked on my own, but um, yeah, that's. Did he
have children before? Yes, he had 5 children prior.
To mine. Did he want another child? Oh yeah, he wanted me pregnant, yes,
yes, absolutely, um, as I, as I look back on it, he was, um, He was very
um. Possessive of me. And
So we moved away. We, I've been in Arizona all my life, basically, and uh
we moved away and um moved back east and I didn't like it back there at
all. It was a place that I didn't want to be and I stayed back there for
eight years and had another son. And um,
A lot of crazy things going on in our life and I wanted to leave and um I
did. Um, and I came back out here to Arizona and um it wasn't long. I had
to leave him. It was not a good situation and um I came back out here to
Arizona and he followed me out here and it was just kind of from then on
all hell broke loose in my life. He Can we um backpedal just a little bit
and um can you talk about uh the process of being pregnant with your first
child? were you, did you enjoy pregnancy? Were you excited about it? Did
you know I loved it. Sorry, I've interrupted you. I don't want to talk
over you. Did you know what to expect to? Um, No, not really. I was pretty
young. I didn't know what to expect really, but I just went with it and
yeah, I liked it. Um, my labor, although it was very long, um, and all
four of my boys, I had natural, but I had back labor and um as the doctor
put it, I never had childbearing hips, but I still worry I was able to
have them all natural and I know exactly how long I was in labor with each
one too, so I was in labor with him 38 hours. So yeah. How did you cope?
Um, I did, and I was very sick, very sick, very sick. I was in the
hospital for a long time and, well, first I had, um, started getting these
cravings at the very last that I would never crave in my life, never think
about eating weird foods, pickled pig's feet was one of them. Oh. And um
anyway, um.
I went we went through a Lamas class with Chad and um. Then finally the
the doctors were getting very concerned. They thought that um. Uh, they
had to go in and break my water, of course, and then I wasn't delivering
and they thought they were gonna have to take the baby, but they said you
gotta push, push, push, and finally I did and I got the little booger out
there. Were you in the hospital for all those 38 hours? No, I went in for
an examination and he said that I was already in labor and so when I just
couldn't take it anymore, I was in the hospital for a day.
Over a day, a day and most of the morning.
Did they offer you any painkillers or anything? No, they said that if I
had taken painkillers, it would set my labor back.
That's nice that they let you labor that long. Oh yeah, real nice.
Real nice.
OK, I need to thank them later. Oh my God. OK, so do you remember, um, a
lot of them we'll talk about, uh, when they're actually in the process of
giving birth, that they'll tear or they'll get an episiotomy or not, not
with Chad. I didn't, not my first born. I, I was sore, but I, no, I didn't
do any of that. Now my second son, yes, I went through that bad, bad. And
um a real hard labor. Each time a nurse described it to me and she was the
only one that knew exactly what I was going through and she goes, I know,
honey, it hurts when those fingernails are ripping down that backbone, and
I thought, how does she know I can't, I don't have no pain here, didn't
have none in my lower belly, it was all in my back. All 4 of them.
um, so you had your child and then were you kept in the hospital? Yeah, I
was released, um.
I think not even 24 hours later, yeah. All my sons, except for my poor son
because I had my tubes tied. Yeah, right after you gave birth, yeah, we'll
get to that, so I don't want to rush you, but um, did you nurse? Yes, a
little bit, didn't know much about it, um. I, I left home at a very young
age, so I didn't know a whole lot about motherhood, but in the Lamas class
they taught us a lot and um yeah, I nursed for a while, not that long
though. You know, so were you, um, staying at home with your child or did
you work? No, I had to go to work. Yeah. Did you have a support network?
Yeah, I had my grandmother and grandfather that lived there and um that
was about it, you know, as far as that one. My mom, you know, they'd come
in, they were living in California at the time, and I flew over there to
see them with my grandma, my cousin and my baby. And um yeah, so I, I had
people in my life, you know. Were you and your husband happy at this point
? I thought, I thought I was, you know, but I noticed things started
changing with him, so, you know, I didn't like how so, um.
Well, he kind of did what he wanted to do. He wouldn't come home. He, um,
you know, would just be and then he started becoming very controlling
towards me and then therefore we moved and we moved back east and then I
waited a long time before I use contraceptive. I waited a long time before
I, um. I had a child and then um all of a sudden I got pregnant with them.
Actually, let me back up, I had cancer. And I was and I was having cancer
treatments at Columbia University in Missouri and um.
No, it's OK. It'll be out. And um anyway, so I, and I would have these
things called cryosurgery done and and I just kept getting it over and
over and over and we were very poor living on farmland and stuff like that
and I was told that I couldn't get pregnant. And then. I think it was 8,
how many years later uh Chad was. 4 or 5 something like that and then
however many years later I had Gavin. And um,
I had gotten cancer again. I was definitely told that I, I couldn't have
any and then He came out of my Daniel.
What kind of cancer did you have? Was it just cervical, yeah, but that
from the cry I had built up a scar tissue and stuff. So, so here you had
cervical cancer that has been reoccurring. Go for it, all of this gets
edited that had reoccurred a couple of times, more than once, and you're
being treated and they were telling you you couldn't get pregnant, you got
pregnant twice. I had Gavin. I had, was it right before Gavin and then I
had, um, actually I had it more than that. The last time was Daniel was, I
was in 2005 was the last time I had it. Can you say it, it, it cervical
cervical cancer, yes, mhm, and, um, 2005, so I said give me a hysterectomy.
You know, I went so many years apart having my kids, you know, and
obviously I wasn't having a problem getting pregnant. Did they remove your
cervix and your uterus or just your uterus? Now that's kind of blank to me
, and I'm trying to get those records from the valley. But I think it's
all of it. Because of how, because of my history and how it spread, and it
was hard to get rid of and stuff like that so but I remember I was
released the next day after I had that. I had a cryo. Um, hysterectomy,
cryosurgery, uh, laparoscopic hysterectomy, and they were brand new at the
time and they went in 3 little, they went into your belly button and two
little tiny incisions there. I don't even have the scars from them now and
um the recovery time is like way faster and stuff like that, which it was.
Is there anything that stands out about the birth of the next 3 children
that was significant or unexpected for you? Well, Gavin, he was, he was a
little hard too, um, that stood out, um, just always I had back back labor
, um, Adam, he had to be induced twice and then I had him and then my
little Daniel. 55 minutes from beginning to end and I had him there. I
finally had one of them quick births.
So were there, can you tell us about the fathers? Um, uh, Daniel's dad
passed away. Um, uh, Adam's dad's still alive here. Um, we get along real
well. Um, the father to my oldest two sons, because of the history behind
it and what had happened, um, when we decided to separate, um, he was very
, um.
Mean, I need, needless to say, and he took off with the boys, his first
visitation and um we didn't know where he was or anything and FBI went
looking for him they still couldn't find him, still couldn't find the boys
and um I always thought, you know.
Then when I got pregnant with.
Adam
That it would help fill a love that was taken.
Sorry. But it didn't. It just added to it cause you love all your children
differently, you know, all the same but differently, you know, never. You
never love any one of them any less. And so And but I was blessed and I,
um. I got to have them in my life. Later on, I found them and um
Let me get you some
Take your time.
How long was it until you got to see them again? Is toilet paper OK or is
that gross? OK? Great, perfect. Can't get any softer than that. Um, was he
kind to your boys when he he never was mean to the kids, but he became
very aggressive towards me. And um.
Anyway, um,
Uh, he just, I don't know, he was kinda crazy.
And you still see him today? I've seen him just here a while back. It's
funny you bring that up. I've seen him about 2, was it 2-3 years, 2 years
, a little over 2 years ago, and that was an amends to make amends. To say
I'm sorry that I took off with the boys and that I will always love you.
And I was like I knew I had to have forgiveness in my heart because I
really I always say I did, but I really didn't.
I was very angry.
That he could do one thing and it would take. And rip my life all apart.
But I, I know that I had to forgive him in order for me to heal.
And then I've had ups and downs in life and um I really became an
alcoholic.
And I leaned towards that a lot when I couldn't sleep at night when the
boys were gone. And then I started meeting somebody and. I got somebody
else in my life. I don't do relationships well at all. So
Oh sorry, no, I can't imagine surviving that. How old was the boys? Um,
Gavin was still in diapers and on a bottle. And Chad was just had his 10th
birthday with me. Yeah. Yeah, what was he thinking? Was he just so angry
at you for? He didn't want nobody to have any look at me, nothing. He
didn't like another man.
At one time we were driving down the road. I don't know this this has
anything to do with it, but we were just driving down the road in the
pickup truck when we're out in the country, and some guy was walking down
the road and just boom, out of nowhere I got slugged and I was like what
the heck and um he goes you like looking at that? That's the type of man
he was. And so I mean and he kept moving me further into the country.
Pretty soon he took away my car, then he took away my phone. I couldn't
call my mom. And um he'd be gone sometimes for days and we would be left
out there, you know, so um yeah um I don't think he's changed that much.
He just got older. Was he violent when you were pregnant and when you had
the babies?
He was, yeah, yeah, he was a violent one,
With Gavin, I mean, Chad, my, my first born, uh, a couple of times, it
scared me, but not violently like beat me up and stuff when I was pregnant.
No, he didn't do that. He was violent before that or actually he didn't
know I was pregnant and I just found out and I didn't know how to pursue
with it, you know, because I thought he was gonna be too physical with me
and I was really. Trying to hold back on telling him I was even pregnant.
Were you considering, um, avoiding? Yes,
yeah, yeah, that's a very complicated, difficult position to be in. You
weren't sure if you wanted to have a child with this man, is that? Yeah, I
didn't know. And then I thought, you know, and me not having a dad growing
up and stuff, I just really tried to hang in there. I mean, we were
married almost we were married 13 years. And I just didn't think it was
right that at that point in time after my 2nd was born, that he should see
his mom being treated that way. And um so I called my parents here and my
mom and stepdad and um they flew me and the kids out here. And it was just
a few months later he followed us out here. I had had him enrolled in
school here. And then we left here and went over to Prescott and um. It
just got worse when when I was away from my mom finally, you know, he, he
started becoming the same person again and You know, my friend, I just So
when he followed you right here you guys got back together, yeah, we were
trying to, trying to make it work. We're supposed to go over to Prescott
and he's supposed to get a job. I got a job. He didn't get a job. And um,
Anyway, um, and then he didn't like it that I was working because he
thought I was fooling around. And um
It just, it just become too much. Did you have people to confide in? Yeah
, I had an aunt and an uncle over there that helped out a great deal, and
, um, that put me and my boys up and then of course I was working and I
was able to get in on rent. I did several different jobs, so.
And he just stopped me the whole time, just made my life miserable. I mean
, there wasn't nothing this man didn't do to. To damage me psychologically.
Wow, so, um, what was that reunion with your boys like?
First it was my eldest son that came out here and
He flew out here. He was 19.
9 years later.
Yeah. And it was different. He'd been a troubled kid, left home, been a
little bit of trouble, came out here, we, um, I hooked him up with some
friends and um Matter of fact, one of the ladies, it's over. This
restaurant and they put him in a job and stuff like that and then he
hooked up with the wrong people out here and he left and moved to Oregon.
Then my second son. Uh by then my ex-husband.
His marriage was going bad back there, back east because of our second son
supposedly was a troubled child and his wife wanted um all of a sudden
they wanted to give him back to me. He was 1516 years old. And yeah, he
was troubled and I by then I'd I'd already had Adam and Daniel. And Daniel
was really little. Adam was
10 or something like that. I, I can't really remember. And um I saw I had
Gavin at home. I went, I was working at a restaurant waiting tables and
cleaning houses on the side and um anyway um I left my son in charge of uh
the little one, and I left a movie home. I was trying to get out the door
to go to work. I left a movie there and so I had to hurry up and turn
around and go back and get the movie because I didn't wanna pay another
day rental fee on it and um when I walked into the house. I walked into a
disturbing site where he had threw monopoly pieces at the little kid. And
I was furious. I was absolutely furious with him. And so I said, what's
going on? Nobody would answer me, so I packed the little one up and called
my boss and said, I'm bringing him to the cafe. I'm leaving him not at
home with him because I didn't know the child and not that I think he's a
bad kid because I know him today but um I know that he had problems and I
was gonna keep him here, but after that, and I found out the extent of the
abuse that was going on when I left the house every time. I, I wasn't
gonna put up with it. I told him, uh, you, you, you got a round trip
ticket, you're going back to your dad's and then, and I'm sorry to say
this, and I did and I called his dad and I said, you created this monster
, you deal with him. I said, I can't do this. He was 16 or something 1516
at that time. And um and then I talked to his wife, Georgia's wife back
there, and she told me that that's why she didn't want him out there and I
said, how come you guys didn't tell me? She goes, I won't allow him around
my grandkids. I go, and you guys send him out here knowing that I've got a
young son that can't even defend himself.
So needless to say, I had him on a. Playing back and I think that was.
All of it's been a regret.
Because they didn't ask for that, none of the kids did.
They were just in the middle of it.
So And I love it.
Uh, those are some really difficult circumstances.
You're amazing to have been able to forgive your first husband, because
that is really a travesty what has happened and what he did.
Um
I've talked to him a few times and stuff and I was gonna go out there and
see the boys, but all my friends and everybody has just begged me not to,
to be even around him because it was really hard for me to get away from
him when I was that young and couldn't run. I'm a little older now. I
can't run too fast anymore. So
When you reflect back on these experiences, what do you think? Like, what
comes to mind? Do you think, Gosh, I'm really strong. I'm a strong person
, or I've overcome so much, or what are your thoughts? I never really gave
myself any credit. I always thought I could have done better, but I could
have hung in there, you know, and made it work somehow or another. I
blamed myself for a long time.
Well you were in a very difficult situation, you know, dealing with abuse
and you're trying to hold on to those boys, you know, and they got stolen
from you.
They had, um, uh, finally they had, he came from a very large family. He
had 11 brothers and sisters and one of them was a police officer back
there, so they hid a lot of things. That's why I had to get away from out
there and um uh so.
Yeah, it was, it was pretty difficult.
And I, I mean, I love them and I wish there was a lot I could do for him,
but I don't know, I always figure if there's an afterlife, I mean God let
me start over with them.
Well, I'm sure they don't hold harbor anything against you. I mean they
knew you were in a very tough situation. Well, they've heard one side of
the story. My oldest, I did give him a whole briefcase full of court
papers. That of stuff that you can't lie about that, you know. So, but
they have been around him all this time, you know, and. I guess he has
helped them, you know, and like I said, it was never them that he was
abusive to other than the fact of them seeing him. Hit me and stuff like
that, and of course Gavin would never know that because he was too little
to remember any of that. Chad's seen it. Excuse me, I'm No, go ahead, take
your time. Are you close with your, um, your sons after those two sons?
What you have, yeah, yes, it's good. Yes. Um, I've had alcoholism as a
part of my life that has uh tore a lot of things up and um.
And you can pause.
And it has um it's it's been a wedge and then I got 9 years of sobriety
and um And then somewhere along the line I lost it again and so I struggle
with it sometimes, you know, I'm sometimes I'm OK and then sometimes I'm
not so OK and. I've gone to therapy and I've talked to it until I can give
the therapist therapy and it's just, I don't know, it's just something
that I think, you know, if I could get past a part of that, you know. I,
I'll be, you know. I'll be all right. I know that a big part of it is me
forgiving myself. That's the part I had problems with. And I still do a
little bit today because I know I could have probably done a lot better is
what I always tell myself. I don't know if it's time for it to go it's OK.
Yeah, you can wrap up. I know what you mean, you're amazing. You've been
eating just all of a sudden it just started coming out and you, you've
been through a lot. And it's really wonderful and brave of you to
contribute your story and have other women who are going through these
things and been through them. We were having these issues. We didn't have
a whole lot of people to protect us back in the day, you know, a lot of
things were swept under the rug. I remember being in a safe house and he
broke into the safe house even I was not safe anywhere from this man. And
um there was nowhere. I didn't even know how he followed me. I was 80
something miles away and never gave a clue, nothing. I had friends helped
me get away. I was like, how in God's name did he find me? I just thought
, I, I just thought there was no end in sight for me, you know, that he
would always find me and um. One time he did something to me that was, but
this is why I took him seriously and I decided to leave back east. He
helped me down on the floor. And he's a lot bigger than me. And 200 and
something pounds and I weighed 110 maybe, and he held my head back and he
started pouring water down my nose and he told me that he could drown me
and nobody would ever know the difference, and I almost drowned it because
he had my arms pinned down to the floor and I thought, you know what? Uh,
he probably just wants to scare me, hurt me, whatever, but one of these
times he's gonna do it on an accident, he's gonna kill me, he's really
gonna kill me. You know, not meaning to, but then where am I gonna be, you
know, where's my son's gonna be? And I always thought, you know, Mhm.
Sorry guys. So,
wow, well, I know you're on a schedule. I'm sorry guys. Well, I hear from
you guys, you were totally.