WEBVTT 00:00:00.509 --> 00:00:06.896 This is Boris Solis interviewing Cynthia A. Spicer on June 21, 2016 at 00:00:06.929 --> 00:00:11.695 1:45 p.m. for the Creative Push project. OK, great. So if you can take us 00:00:11.728 --> 00:00:17.375 back to um the father of your first born and the conception. Was it a 00:00:17.408 --> 00:00:22.817 wanted pregnancy? Was it planned? No, it wasn't planned. No. And was it 00:00:22.850 --> 00:00:26.977 wanted? Yes, it was very much wanted. 00:00:27.010 --> 00:00:31.195 Anything else? Were you guys together for a long time? Were you trying or 00:00:31.228 --> 00:00:34.226 I mean you weren't we were together. He was quite a bit older than me. I 00:00:34.259 --> 00:00:41.335 was um. 17 or 18, he was 32. 00:00:41.368 --> 00:00:46.585 So, um, So you just were smitten with the 32 year old man. He had some an 00:00:46.618 --> 00:00:53.057 error about him or something? Well, I, yeah, kind of like an authority 00:00:53.090 --> 00:01:00.976 figure in my life is the way I think I took him, you know. And um do you 00:01:01.009 --> 00:01:03.856 want me to talk more than the questions you're asking me? Oh yeah, you can 00:01:03.889 --> 00:01:09.736 totally take off. This is just like to kind of get the ball, OK, um, yeah 00:01:09.769 --> 00:01:13.257 , he worked for my grandfather and I was staying with my grandma and 00:01:13.290 --> 00:01:21.290 grandpa at the time, um. And um, You know, he just seemed like somebody 00:01:21.489 --> 00:01:28.926 that would be stable in my life and um. I, I've been out on my own ever 00:01:28.959 --> 00:01:36.286 since I was very young and worked on my own, but um, yeah, that's. Did he 00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:42.275 have children before? Yes, he had 5 children prior. 00:01:42.308 --> 00:01:49.066 To mine. Did he want another child? Oh yeah, he wanted me pregnant, yes, 00:01:49.099 --> 00:01:57.099 yes, absolutely, um, as I, as I look back on it, he was, um, He was very 00:01:57.689 --> 00:02:04.135 um. Possessive of me. And 00:02:04.168 --> 00:02:10.096 So we moved away. We, I've been in Arizona all my life, basically, and uh 00:02:10.129 --> 00:02:15.975 we moved away and um moved back east and I didn't like it back there at 00:02:16.008 --> 00:02:20.376 all. It was a place that I didn't want to be and I stayed back there for 00:02:20.409 --> 00:02:25.916 eight years and had another son. And um, 00:02:25.949 --> 00:02:32.106 A lot of crazy things going on in our life and I wanted to leave and um I 00:02:32.139 --> 00:02:40.139 did. Um, and I came back out here to Arizona and um it wasn't long. I had 00:02:40.808 --> 00:02:46.856 to leave him. It was not a good situation and um I came back out here to 00:02:46.889 --> 00:02:51.927 Arizona and he followed me out here and it was just kind of from then on 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:59.646 all hell broke loose in my life. He Can we um backpedal just a little bit 00:02:59.679 --> 00:03:03.886 and um can you talk about uh the process of being pregnant with your first 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:08.827 child? were you, did you enjoy pregnancy? Were you excited about it? Did 00:03:08.860 --> 00:03:12.005 you know I loved it. Sorry, I've interrupted you. I don't want to talk 00:03:12.038 --> 00:03:18.827 over you. Did you know what to expect to? Um, No, not really. I was pretty 00:03:18.860 --> 00:03:23.305 young. I didn't know what to expect really, but I just went with it and 00:03:23.338 --> 00:03:28.297 yeah, I liked it. Um, my labor, although it was very long, um, and all 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:33.745 four of my boys, I had natural, but I had back labor and um as the doctor 00:03:33.778 --> 00:03:38.505 put it, I never had childbearing hips, but I still worry I was able to 00:03:38.538 --> 00:03:43.767 have them all natural and I know exactly how long I was in labor with each 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:51.305 one too, so I was in labor with him 38 hours. So yeah. How did you cope? 00:03:51.338 --> 00:03:55.707 Um, I did, and I was very sick, very sick, very sick. I was in the 00:03:55.740 --> 00:04:00.225 hospital for a long time and, well, first I had, um, started getting these 00:04:00.258 --> 00:04:05.467 cravings at the very last that I would never crave in my life, never think 00:04:05.500 --> 00:04:11.927 about eating weird foods, pickled pig's feet was one of them. Oh. And um 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:14.495 anyway, um. 00:04:14.528 --> 00:04:22.528 I went we went through a Lamas class with Chad and um. Then finally the 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:27.895 the doctors were getting very concerned. They thought that um. Uh, they 00:04:27.928 --> 00:04:31.447 had to go in and break my water, of course, and then I wasn't delivering 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:34.937 and they thought they were gonna have to take the baby, but they said you 00:04:34.970 --> 00:04:39.697 gotta push, push, push, and finally I did and I got the little booger out 00:04:39.730 --> 00:04:44.937 there. Were you in the hospital for all those 38 hours? No, I went in for 00:04:44.970 --> 00:04:50.137 an examination and he said that I was already in labor and so when I just 00:04:50.170 --> 00:04:55.916 couldn't take it anymore, I was in the hospital for a day. 00:04:55.949 --> 00:05:01.395 Over a day, a day and most of the morning. 00:05:01.428 --> 00:05:04.687 Did they offer you any painkillers or anything? No, they said that if I 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:08.986 had taken painkillers, it would set my labor back. 00:05:09.019 --> 00:05:15.395 That's nice that they let you labor that long. Oh yeah, real nice. 00:05:15.428 --> 00:05:18.786 Real nice. 00:05:18.819 --> 00:05:25.325 OK, I need to thank them later. Oh my God. OK, so do you remember, um, a 00:05:25.358 --> 00:05:28.596 lot of them we'll talk about, uh, when they're actually in the process of 00:05:28.629 --> 00:05:35.567 giving birth, that they'll tear or they'll get an episiotomy or not, not 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:41.156 with Chad. I didn't, not my first born. I, I was sore, but I, no, I didn't 00:05:41.189 --> 00:05:47.717 do any of that. Now my second son, yes, I went through that bad, bad. And 00:05:47.750 --> 00:05:52.476 um a real hard labor. Each time a nurse described it to me and she was the 00:05:52.509 --> 00:05:56.437 only one that knew exactly what I was going through and she goes, I know, 00:05:56.470 --> 00:06:00.555 honey, it hurts when those fingernails are ripping down that backbone, and 00:06:00.588 --> 00:06:03.416 I thought, how does she know I can't, I don't have no pain here, didn't 00:06:03.449 --> 00:06:11.449 have none in my lower belly, it was all in my back. All 4 of them. 00:06:11.910 --> 00:06:16.687 um, so you had your child and then were you kept in the hospital? Yeah, I 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:20.197 was released, um. 00:06:20.230 --> 00:06:28.230 I think not even 24 hours later, yeah. All my sons, except for my poor son 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:33.455 because I had my tubes tied. Yeah, right after you gave birth, yeah, we'll 00:06:33.488 --> 00:06:38.536 get to that, so I don't want to rush you, but um, did you nurse? Yes, a 00:06:38.569 --> 00:06:44.395 little bit, didn't know much about it, um. I, I left home at a very young 00:06:44.428 --> 00:06:49.887 age, so I didn't know a whole lot about motherhood, but in the Lamas class 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:55.555 they taught us a lot and um yeah, I nursed for a while, not that long 00:06:55.588 --> 00:07:00.736 though. You know, so were you, um, staying at home with your child or did 00:07:00.769 --> 00:07:05.645 you work? No, I had to go to work. Yeah. Did you have a support network? 00:07:05.678 --> 00:07:11.495 Yeah, I had my grandmother and grandfather that lived there and um that 00:07:11.528 --> 00:07:16.055 was about it, you know, as far as that one. My mom, you know, they'd come 00:07:16.088 --> 00:07:20.697 in, they were living in California at the time, and I flew over there to 00:07:20.730 --> 00:07:27.426 see them with my grandma, my cousin and my baby. And um yeah, so I, I had 00:07:27.459 --> 00:07:31.067 people in my life, you know. Were you and your husband happy at this point 00:07:31.100 --> 00:07:38.015 ? I thought, I thought I was, you know, but I noticed things started 00:07:38.048 --> 00:07:46.048 changing with him, so, you know, I didn't like how so, um. 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:51.447 Well, he kind of did what he wanted to do. He wouldn't come home. He, um, 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:55.127 you know, would just be and then he started becoming very controlling 00:07:55.160 --> 00:08:01.476 towards me and then therefore we moved and we moved back east and then I 00:08:01.509 --> 00:08:06.555 waited a long time before I use contraceptive. I waited a long time before 00:08:06.588 --> 00:08:13.596 I, um. I had a child and then um all of a sudden I got pregnant with them. 00:08:13.629 --> 00:08:20.697 Actually, let me back up, I had cancer. And I was and I was having cancer 00:08:20.730 --> 00:08:27.776 treatments at Columbia University in Missouri and um. 00:08:27.809 --> 00:08:33.927 No, it's OK. It'll be out. And um anyway, so I, and I would have these 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:37.856 things called cryosurgery done and and I just kept getting it over and 00:08:37.889 --> 00:08:43.297 over and over and we were very poor living on farmland and stuff like that 00:08:43.330 --> 00:08:51.330 and I was told that I couldn't get pregnant. And then. I think it was 8, 00:08:52.210 --> 00:08:58.717 how many years later uh Chad was. 4 or 5 something like that and then 00:08:58.750 --> 00:09:05.135 however many years later I had Gavin. And um, 00:09:05.168 --> 00:09:10.246 I had gotten cancer again. I was definitely told that I, I couldn't have 00:09:10.279 --> 00:09:16.927 any and then He came out of my Daniel. 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:21.686 What kind of cancer did you have? Was it just cervical, yeah, but that 00:09:21.719 --> 00:09:27.446 from the cry I had built up a scar tissue and stuff. So, so here you had 00:09:27.479 --> 00:09:32.606 cervical cancer that has been reoccurring. Go for it, all of this gets 00:09:32.639 --> 00:09:37.287 edited that had reoccurred a couple of times, more than once, and you're 00:09:37.320 --> 00:09:40.206 being treated and they were telling you you couldn't get pregnant, you got 00:09:40.239 --> 00:09:46.686 pregnant twice. I had Gavin. I had, was it right before Gavin and then I 00:09:46.719 --> 00:09:53.537 had, um, actually I had it more than that. The last time was Daniel was, I 00:09:53.570 --> 00:09:58.547 was in 2005 was the last time I had it. Can you say it, it, it cervical 00:09:58.580 --> 00:10:06.580 cervical cancer, yes, mhm, and, um, 2005, so I said give me a hysterectomy. 00:10:06.678 --> 00:10:11.596 You know, I went so many years apart having my kids, you know, and 00:10:11.629 --> 00:10:16.436 obviously I wasn't having a problem getting pregnant. Did they remove your 00:10:16.469 --> 00:10:20.717 cervix and your uterus or just your uterus? Now that's kind of blank to me 00:10:20.750 --> 00:10:24.907 , and I'm trying to get those records from the valley. But I think it's 00:10:24.940 --> 00:10:31.836 all of it. Because of how, because of my history and how it spread, and it 00:10:31.869 --> 00:10:37.836 was hard to get rid of and stuff like that so but I remember I was 00:10:37.869 --> 00:10:43.217 released the next day after I had that. I had a cryo. Um, hysterectomy, 00:10:43.250 --> 00:10:49.005 cryosurgery, uh, laparoscopic hysterectomy, and they were brand new at the 00:10:49.038 --> 00:10:52.885 time and they went in 3 little, they went into your belly button and two 00:10:52.918 --> 00:10:56.885 little tiny incisions there. I don't even have the scars from them now and 00:10:56.918 --> 00:11:02.037 um the recovery time is like way faster and stuff like that, which it was. 00:11:02.070 --> 00:11:06.427 Is there anything that stands out about the birth of the next 3 children 00:11:06.460 --> 00:11:11.667 that was significant or unexpected for you? Well, Gavin, he was, he was a 00:11:11.700 --> 00:11:17.996 little hard too, um, that stood out, um, just always I had back back labor 00:11:18.029 --> 00:11:26.029 , um, Adam, he had to be induced twice and then I had him and then my 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:32.846 little Daniel. 55 minutes from beginning to end and I had him there. I 00:11:32.879 --> 00:11:35.657 finally had one of them quick births. 00:11:35.690 --> 00:11:41.366 So were there, can you tell us about the fathers? Um, uh, Daniel's dad 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:49.399 passed away. Um, uh, Adam's dad's still alive here. Um, we get along real 00:11:50.820 --> 00:11:56.746 well. Um, the father to my oldest two sons, because of the history behind 00:11:56.779 --> 00:12:03.226 it and what had happened, um, when we decided to separate, um, he was very 00:12:03.259 --> 00:12:05.927 , um. 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:10.895 Mean, I need, needless to say, and he took off with the boys, his first 00:12:10.928 --> 00:12:17.775 visitation and um we didn't know where he was or anything and FBI went 00:12:17.808 --> 00:12:22.976 looking for him they still couldn't find him, still couldn't find the boys 00:12:23.009 --> 00:12:31.009 and um I always thought, you know. 00:12:39.808 --> 00:12:43.616 Then when I got pregnant with. 00:12:43.649 --> 00:12:45.645 Adam 00:12:45.678 --> 00:12:50.456 That it would help fill a love that was taken. 00:12:50.489 --> 00:12:56.726 Sorry. But it didn't. It just added to it cause you love all your children 00:12:56.759 --> 00:13:01.566 differently, you know, all the same but differently, you know, never. You 00:13:01.599 --> 00:13:09.145 never love any one of them any less. And so And but I was blessed and I, 00:13:09.178 --> 00:13:17.178 um. I got to have them in my life. Later on, I found them and um 00:13:22.668 --> 00:13:25.246 Let me get you some 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:33.279 Take your time. 00:13:35.658 --> 00:13:41.336 How long was it until you got to see them again? Is toilet paper OK or is 00:13:41.369 --> 00:13:48.217 that gross? OK? Great, perfect. Can't get any softer than that. Um, was he 00:13:48.250 --> 00:13:53.336 kind to your boys when he he never was mean to the kids, but he became 00:13:53.369 --> 00:14:00.875 very aggressive towards me. And um. 00:14:00.908 --> 00:14:06.356 Anyway, um, 00:14:06.389 --> 00:14:12.496 Uh, he just, I don't know, he was kinda crazy. 00:14:12.529 --> 00:14:17.476 And you still see him today? I've seen him just here a while back. It's 00:14:17.509 --> 00:14:21.956 funny you bring that up. I've seen him about 2, was it 2-3 years, 2 years 00:14:21.989 --> 00:14:27.846 , a little over 2 years ago, and that was an amends to make amends. To say 00:14:27.879 --> 00:14:32.635 I'm sorry that I took off with the boys and that I will always love you. 00:14:32.668 --> 00:14:37.206 And I was like I knew I had to have forgiveness in my heart because I 00:14:37.239 --> 00:14:42.025 really I always say I did, but I really didn't. 00:14:42.058 --> 00:14:44.885 I was very angry. 00:14:44.918 --> 00:14:52.918 That he could do one thing and it would take. And rip my life all apart. 00:14:55.149 --> 00:15:01.996 But I, I know that I had to forgive him in order for me to heal. 00:15:02.029 --> 00:15:06.755 And then I've had ups and downs in life and um I really became an 00:15:06.788 --> 00:15:09.015 alcoholic. 00:15:09.048 --> 00:15:13.596 And I leaned towards that a lot when I couldn't sleep at night when the 00:15:13.629 --> 00:15:19.557 boys were gone. And then I started meeting somebody and. I got somebody 00:15:19.590 --> 00:15:27.590 else in my life. I don't do relationships well at all. So 00:15:28.849 --> 00:15:34.927 Oh sorry, no, I can't imagine surviving that. How old was the boys? Um, 00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:42.746 Gavin was still in diapers and on a bottle. And Chad was just had his 10th 00:15:42.779 --> 00:15:50.606 birthday with me. Yeah. Yeah, what was he thinking? Was he just so angry 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.826 at you for? He didn't want nobody to have any look at me, nothing. He 00:15:54.859 --> 00:15:59.505 didn't like another man. 00:15:59.538 --> 00:16:02.645 At one time we were driving down the road. I don't know this this has 00:16:02.678 --> 00:16:06.005 anything to do with it, but we were just driving down the road in the 00:16:06.038 --> 00:16:10.635 pickup truck when we're out in the country, and some guy was walking down 00:16:10.668 --> 00:16:16.226 the road and just boom, out of nowhere I got slugged and I was like what 00:16:16.259 --> 00:16:22.125 the heck and um he goes you like looking at that? That's the type of man 00:16:22.158 --> 00:16:27.417 he was. And so I mean and he kept moving me further into the country. 00:16:27.450 --> 00:16:30.537 Pretty soon he took away my car, then he took away my phone. I couldn't 00:16:30.570 --> 00:16:36.525 call my mom. And um he'd be gone sometimes for days and we would be left 00:16:36.558 --> 00:16:44.558 out there, you know, so um yeah um I don't think he's changed that much. 00:16:45.649 --> 00:16:49.807 He just got older. Was he violent when you were pregnant and when you had 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:52.135 the babies? 00:16:52.168 --> 00:16:58.096 He was, yeah, yeah, he was a violent one, 00:16:58.129 --> 00:17:03.015 With Gavin, I mean, Chad, my, my first born, uh, a couple of times, it 00:17:03.048 --> 00:17:08.176 scared me, but not violently like beat me up and stuff when I was pregnant. 00:17:08.209 --> 00:17:13.416 No, he didn't do that. He was violent before that or actually he didn't 00:17:13.449 --> 00:17:17.815 know I was pregnant and I just found out and I didn't know how to pursue 00:17:17.848 --> 00:17:22.217 with it, you know, because I thought he was gonna be too physical with me 00:17:22.250 --> 00:17:27.607 and I was really. Trying to hold back on telling him I was even pregnant. 00:17:27.640 --> 00:17:32.565 Were you considering, um, avoiding? Yes, 00:17:32.598 --> 00:17:38.367 yeah, yeah, that's a very complicated, difficult position to be in. You 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:42.127 weren't sure if you wanted to have a child with this man, is that? Yeah, I 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:46.766 didn't know. And then I thought, you know, and me not having a dad growing 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:51.006 up and stuff, I just really tried to hang in there. I mean, we were 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:56.986 married almost we were married 13 years. And I just didn't think it was 00:17:57.019 --> 00:18:01.575 right that at that point in time after my 2nd was born, that he should see 00:18:01.608 --> 00:18:08.506 his mom being treated that way. And um so I called my parents here and my 00:18:08.539 --> 00:18:15.236 mom and stepdad and um they flew me and the kids out here. And it was just 00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:19.456 a few months later he followed us out here. I had had him enrolled in 00:18:19.489 --> 00:18:27.026 school here. And then we left here and went over to Prescott and um. It 00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:31.916 just got worse when when I was away from my mom finally, you know, he, he 00:18:31.949 --> 00:18:38.936 started becoming the same person again and You know, my friend, I just So 00:18:38.969 --> 00:18:41.887 when he followed you right here you guys got back together, yeah, we were 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:45.006 trying to, trying to make it work. We're supposed to go over to Prescott 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:52.575 and he's supposed to get a job. I got a job. He didn't get a job. And um, 00:18:52.608 --> 00:18:56.607 Anyway, um, and then he didn't like it that I was working because he 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:02.867 thought I was fooling around. And um 00:19:02.900 --> 00:19:07.946 It just, it just become too much. Did you have people to confide in? Yeah 00:19:07.979 --> 00:19:12.035 , I had an aunt and an uncle over there that helped out a great deal, and 00:19:12.068 --> 00:19:15.795 , um, that put me and my boys up and then of course I was working and I 00:19:15.828 --> 00:19:22.887 was able to get in on rent. I did several different jobs, so. 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:27.555 And he just stopped me the whole time, just made my life miserable. I mean 00:19:27.588 --> 00:19:33.809 , there wasn't nothing this man didn't do to. To damage me psychologically. 00:19:34.588 --> 00:19:36.588 Wow, so, um, what was that reunion with your boys like? 00:19:42.150 --> 00:19:48.127 First it was my eldest son that came out here and 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:52.236 He flew out here. He was 19. 00:19:52.269 --> 00:19:55.065 9 years later. 00:19:55.098 --> 00:20:01.117 Yeah. And it was different. He'd been a troubled kid, left home, been a 00:20:01.150 --> 00:20:06.825 little bit of trouble, came out here, we, um, I hooked him up with some 00:20:06.858 --> 00:20:14.736 friends and um Matter of fact, one of the ladies, it's over. This 00:20:14.769 --> 00:20:19.436 restaurant and they put him in a job and stuff like that and then he 00:20:19.469 --> 00:20:25.026 hooked up with the wrong people out here and he left and moved to Oregon. 00:20:25.059 --> 00:20:32.666 Then my second son. Uh by then my ex-husband. 00:20:32.699 --> 00:20:39.226 His marriage was going bad back there, back east because of our second son 00:20:39.259 --> 00:20:45.736 supposedly was a troubled child and his wife wanted um all of a sudden 00:20:45.769 --> 00:20:52.085 they wanted to give him back to me. He was 1516 years old. And yeah, he 00:20:52.118 --> 00:20:58.226 was troubled and I by then I'd I'd already had Adam and Daniel. And Daniel 00:20:58.259 --> 00:21:02.387 was really little. Adam was 00:21:02.420 --> 00:21:08.666 10 or something like that. I, I can't really remember. And um I saw I had 00:21:08.699 --> 00:21:13.387 Gavin at home. I went, I was working at a restaurant waiting tables and 00:21:13.420 --> 00:21:21.420 cleaning houses on the side and um anyway um I left my son in charge of uh 00:21:21.608 --> 00:21:26.055 the little one, and I left a movie home. I was trying to get out the door 00:21:26.088 --> 00:21:30.016 to go to work. I left a movie there and so I had to hurry up and turn 00:21:30.049 --> 00:21:32.217 around and go back and get the movie because I didn't wanna pay another 00:21:32.250 --> 00:21:38.795 day rental fee on it and um when I walked into the house. I walked into a 00:21:38.828 --> 00:21:45.256 disturbing site where he had threw monopoly pieces at the little kid. And 00:21:45.289 --> 00:21:51.377 I was furious. I was absolutely furious with him. And so I said, what's 00:21:51.410 --> 00:21:55.936 going on? Nobody would answer me, so I packed the little one up and called 00:21:55.969 --> 00:21:59.815 my boss and said, I'm bringing him to the cafe. I'm leaving him not at 00:21:59.848 --> 00:22:04.936 home with him because I didn't know the child and not that I think he's a 00:22:04.969 --> 00:22:12.805 bad kid because I know him today but um I know that he had problems and I 00:22:12.838 --> 00:22:17.436 was gonna keep him here, but after that, and I found out the extent of the 00:22:17.469 --> 00:22:21.516 abuse that was going on when I left the house every time. I, I wasn't 00:22:21.549 --> 00:22:26.196 gonna put up with it. I told him, uh, you, you, you got a round trip 00:22:26.229 --> 00:22:29.877 ticket, you're going back to your dad's and then, and I'm sorry to say 00:22:29.910 --> 00:22:34.156 this, and I did and I called his dad and I said, you created this monster 00:22:34.189 --> 00:22:42.189 , you deal with him. I said, I can't do this. He was 16 or something 1516 00:22:42.289 --> 00:22:48.976 at that time. And um and then I talked to his wife, Georgia's wife back 00:22:49.009 --> 00:22:54.335 there, and she told me that that's why she didn't want him out there and I 00:22:54.368 --> 00:22:56.696 said, how come you guys didn't tell me? She goes, I won't allow him around 00:22:56.729 --> 00:23:01.137 my grandkids. I go, and you guys send him out here knowing that I've got a 00:23:01.170 --> 00:23:05.666 young son that can't even defend himself. 00:23:05.699 --> 00:23:13.699 So needless to say, I had him on a. Playing back and I think that was. 00:23:14.479 --> 00:23:19.676 All of it's been a regret. 00:23:19.709 --> 00:23:25.315 Because they didn't ask for that, none of the kids did. 00:23:25.348 --> 00:23:30.055 They were just in the middle of it. 00:23:30.088 --> 00:23:36.637 So And I love it. 00:23:36.670 --> 00:23:41.506 Uh, those are some really difficult circumstances. 00:23:41.539 --> 00:23:46.906 You're amazing to have been able to forgive your first husband, because 00:23:46.939 --> 00:23:53.266 that is really a travesty what has happened and what he did. 00:23:53.299 --> 00:23:55.835 Um 00:23:55.868 --> 00:23:59.897 I've talked to him a few times and stuff and I was gonna go out there and 00:23:59.930 --> 00:24:05.217 see the boys, but all my friends and everybody has just begged me not to, 00:24:05.250 --> 00:24:09.335 to be even around him because it was really hard for me to get away from 00:24:09.368 --> 00:24:14.217 him when I was that young and couldn't run. I'm a little older now. I 00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:19.736 can't run too fast anymore. So 00:24:19.769 --> 00:24:23.976 When you reflect back on these experiences, what do you think? Like, what 00:24:24.009 --> 00:24:27.656 comes to mind? Do you think, Gosh, I'm really strong. I'm a strong person 00:24:27.689 --> 00:24:33.637 , or I've overcome so much, or what are your thoughts? I never really gave 00:24:33.670 --> 00:24:36.647 myself any credit. I always thought I could have done better, but I could 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:42.085 have hung in there, you know, and made it work somehow or another. I 00:24:42.118 --> 00:24:47.436 blamed myself for a long time. 00:24:47.469 --> 00:24:51.766 Well you were in a very difficult situation, you know, dealing with abuse 00:24:51.799 --> 00:24:55.357 and you're trying to hold on to those boys, you know, and they got stolen 00:24:55.390 --> 00:24:57.926 from you. 00:24:57.959 --> 00:25:02.426 They had, um, uh, finally they had, he came from a very large family. He 00:25:02.459 --> 00:25:06.085 had 11 brothers and sisters and one of them was a police officer back 00:25:06.118 --> 00:25:09.877 there, so they hid a lot of things. That's why I had to get away from out 00:25:09.910 --> 00:25:15.805 there and um uh so. 00:25:15.838 --> 00:25:20.357 Yeah, it was, it was pretty difficult. 00:25:20.390 --> 00:25:24.217 And I, I mean, I love them and I wish there was a lot I could do for him, 00:25:24.250 --> 00:25:28.736 but I don't know, I always figure if there's an afterlife, I mean God let 00:25:28.769 --> 00:25:36.769 me start over with them. 00:25:38.170 --> 00:25:42.545 Well, I'm sure they don't hold harbor anything against you. I mean they 00:25:42.578 --> 00:25:45.825 knew you were in a very tough situation. Well, they've heard one side of 00:25:45.858 --> 00:25:49.825 the story. My oldest, I did give him a whole briefcase full of court 00:25:49.858 --> 00:25:57.858 papers. That of stuff that you can't lie about that, you know. So, but 00:25:58.098 --> 00:26:03.607 they have been around him all this time, you know, and. I guess he has 00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:07.916 helped them, you know, and like I said, it was never them that he was 00:26:07.949 --> 00:26:13.956 abusive to other than the fact of them seeing him. Hit me and stuff like 00:26:13.989 --> 00:26:17.236 that, and of course Gavin would never know that because he was too little 00:26:17.269 --> 00:26:21.627 to remember any of that. Chad's seen it. Excuse me, I'm No, go ahead, take 00:26:21.660 --> 00:26:27.585 your time. Are you close with your, um, your sons after those two sons? 00:26:27.618 --> 00:26:34.387 What you have, yeah, yes, it's good. Yes. Um, I've had alcoholism as a 00:26:34.420 --> 00:26:42.420 part of my life that has uh tore a lot of things up and um. 00:26:42.729 --> 00:26:47.045 And you can pause. 00:26:47.078 --> 00:26:53.565 And it has um it's it's been a wedge and then I got 9 years of sobriety 00:26:53.598 --> 00:27:00.535 and um And then somewhere along the line I lost it again and so I struggle 00:27:00.568 --> 00:27:05.416 with it sometimes, you know, I'm sometimes I'm OK and then sometimes I'm 00:27:05.449 --> 00:27:13.035 not so OK and. I've gone to therapy and I've talked to it until I can give 00:27:13.068 --> 00:27:18.516 the therapist therapy and it's just, I don't know, it's just something 00:27:18.549 --> 00:27:23.956 that I think, you know, if I could get past a part of that, you know. I, 00:27:23.989 --> 00:27:29.887 I'll be, you know. I'll be all right. I know that a big part of it is me 00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:35.085 forgiving myself. That's the part I had problems with. And I still do a 00:27:35.118 --> 00:27:39.506 little bit today because I know I could have probably done a lot better is 00:27:39.539 --> 00:27:45.259 what I always tell myself. I don't know if it's time for it to go it's OK. 00:27:47.469 --> 00:27:49.305 Yeah, you can wrap up. I know what you mean, you're amazing. You've been 00:27:49.338 --> 00:27:54.986 eating just all of a sudden it just started coming out and you, you've 00:27:55.019 --> 00:27:59.186 been through a lot. And it's really wonderful and brave of you to 00:27:59.219 --> 00:28:02.147 contribute your story and have other women who are going through these 00:28:02.180 --> 00:28:05.897 things and been through them. We were having these issues. We didn't have 00:28:05.930 --> 00:28:09.545 a whole lot of people to protect us back in the day, you know, a lot of 00:28:09.578 --> 00:28:13.785 things were swept under the rug. I remember being in a safe house and he 00:28:13.818 --> 00:28:19.717 broke into the safe house even I was not safe anywhere from this man. And 00:28:19.750 --> 00:28:23.756 um there was nowhere. I didn't even know how he followed me. I was 80 00:28:23.789 --> 00:28:27.637 something miles away and never gave a clue, nothing. I had friends helped 00:28:27.670 --> 00:28:33.387 me get away. I was like, how in God's name did he find me? I just thought 00:28:33.420 --> 00:28:38.266 , I, I just thought there was no end in sight for me, you know, that he 00:28:38.299 --> 00:28:45.436 would always find me and um. One time he did something to me that was, but 00:28:45.469 --> 00:28:49.266 this is why I took him seriously and I decided to leave back east. He 00:28:49.299 --> 00:28:55.936 helped me down on the floor. And he's a lot bigger than me. And 200 and 00:28:55.969 --> 00:29:02.805 something pounds and I weighed 110 maybe, and he held my head back and he 00:29:02.838 --> 00:29:07.835 started pouring water down my nose and he told me that he could drown me 00:29:07.868 --> 00:29:11.766 and nobody would ever know the difference, and I almost drowned it because 00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:16.107 he had my arms pinned down to the floor and I thought, you know what? Uh, 00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:20.906 he probably just wants to scare me, hurt me, whatever, but one of these 00:29:20.939 --> 00:29:23.867 times he's gonna do it on an accident, he's gonna kill me, he's really 00:29:23.900 --> 00:29:28.686 gonna kill me. You know, not meaning to, but then where am I gonna be, you 00:29:28.719 --> 00:29:34.946 know, where's my son's gonna be? And I always thought, you know, Mhm. 00:29:34.979 --> 00:29:39.656 Sorry guys. So, 00:29:39.689 --> 00:29:44.217 wow, well, I know you're on a schedule. I'm sorry guys. Well, I hear from 00:29:44.250 --> 00:29:47.930 you guys, you were totally.