And it is 140. So this is for Solis interviewing Margaret Holtz for the
Creative Push project on September 13th at 1:40. So to just start out with
, why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself while um Ashley's
addressing the levels and things. I'm 62 years old. I live in Michigan and
in Phoenix. I have been a single mother for.
22 years.
I can adjust my seat to over.
You're one of 6 girls I'm one of 6 daughters. My mother died when I was 9.
My dad remarried when I was 10. He remarried a woman who I thought was
the evil stepmother until I had 4 children of my own, and then I realized
she was a saint.
Yeah, I can't imagine. And that my 5 sisters and I all, except for the
Judy is the exception that had a terrible birth because she had 2 uteruses.
We all had simple natural childbirths, so we were very lucky. I get Judy.
You should get Judy. I don't know how to make that happen. Um, OK, so, uh
, why don't you, so Judy does want to come here. Oh good, yeah, we'll do
that. So, um, we can start with my birth. Uh, if you can talk about, um,
the conception, you know, was it planned, desired? Take us back to that
time, you know, set up the location and the time in your life. It was 1976.
And I was married to a man who did not want to be married to a smoker. And
so that was one of our big arguments until I decided I wanted to have a
baby and that was a good reason to quit smoking so I went through hypnosis
and it was successful and then I started using my hands to make little
felt Christmas ornaments and things like that and lo and behold I got
pregnant unexpectedly. And um told everybody at work in an elevator
wherever I was, I told the grocery store clerk I was having a baby and
then 3 months later I lost it and then I had to tell everybody that I lost
the baby and I went in back in that day they made you have an emergency
DNC, so I went in for the emergency D&C and I was told not to try to get
pregnant again for 6 months and in 2 months I was pregnant with my
daughter Forest.
And it was a good pregnancy, um, never any morning sickness. I gained 45
pounds. I'd look at my husband. I'd be sitting on the bathroom vanity
close to the mirror, putting M&M's in Frito scoops, crying, Why am I so
fat?
And he'd be like, OK, let's think. That's the uh scientist in him. Well,
let's see, why is she so bad?
I need to pause so I can laugh out loud. Oh my goodness. So what was Dad's
response when you got pregnant though? Was he on board with having a baby
? He was very sad when I lost the baby. I'll tell you a private story. I
was over at Aunt Judy's house, and um I knew that I was spotting. And so I
was going to the doctor and he said, lay down, get your feet up, and I
wanted that baby so bad that I remember if I had gas and had to push a
poop out, I think, oh I'm gonna lose the baby. But you know, pooping has
nothing to do with whether or not you're gonna lose a baby.
I don't know why I'm finding this so funny. I wonder if it's just because
you're my mother, um. Can I
edit it out. Oh yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't know if that's, um, but anyway,
so then, yes, I did lose the baby, and, um, I remember your father was so
sweet and so sad and um had the D&C, came home, had to tell everybody at
work, you know, that I'd lost the baby, and, um, and we weren't trying, we
weren't trying not to, we weren't trying to, but a few months later I was
pregnant with you. So you were 3 months pregnant when you had the
miscarriage. Yes, did you feel pregnant? Well, yes, because when it's your
first pregnancy, you just think every little anything is, oh, I'm pregnant
, you know, um, just anything you're so, so acutely aware of your body.
And so yeah, I think I, I probably shouldn't have because it was probably
as big as a pee, but yes, I thought, I thought I felt pregnant. That
probably made it worse too. Yeah, yeah. And then my sisters had lost
babies, but nobody ever talked about it, so so many of them had lost their
first pregnancy, which is really natural. the body tends to do that. Yeah
, it's more common than I think people,
um, OK, so then you were pregnant the second time, and then did you tell
people? I told people all again right immediately afterwards, um and the
pregnancy was good. I um remember back in '79, 78 when I was pregnant. Um
, we wore those pants with those big panels in the front and then the
little short baby doll shirts that you could actually see the panel in the
front and it went from hip to hip way down into your thighs. They were the
worst pants and the worst little shirts. Now that's not an image. I don't
know what is.
There was quite a bit of fashion faux pas kind of there, but the high
collars and then the long sleeves and the things that went floor length,
and then don't forget the little puff that little puff sleeve. Um Yeah, so
then, um, OK, so you told everyone and the baby took. Now, was there an
issue with the DNC? No issue with the DNC. Yeah, no you. Baby took,
everything was fine. Except for all the weight gain, I can't, I didn't
have any, any complications whatsoever. Can you tell the story of your
life? Look at these tits. I will. That's after the baby came. Oh, it is
when you were a nurse, OK, um, OK, so then.
Uh, did you have a support network? I mean, I didn't because I had moved
from New Orleans where my very favorite sister lived and Robert had been
transferred to Houston, so I lived in Houston with him, and he, um, no, I
did not have a support network except for via the telephone. And um But
I'm, I don't remember that being a problem because I was so active and, um
, you know, made friends easily, so that wasn't a big issue, yeah, not so
many that had kids. I just was so thrilled to have my own, you know, and
I'm just family oriented. I'm not one that needs a huge group. So was
there, were you to practicing Lama? I was practicing Lama, yes, that was
very interesting and um. I thought it was, I just thought it was a godsend
that it helped so much.
Um, and I took it very seriously.
Do you want water? I thought that's your water there.
Yeah, you can take your time.
So I would practice Lamas at home and um which really really helped during
the birthing process because um when I went into labor um well first of
all I had Braxton Hicks contractions for 3 months before labor so every
day it felt like is today the day and then um I went past my due date and
so the Braxton Hicks were getting pretty severe so I thought well I must
be in labor and I had your dad. Take me to the hospital and they examined
me and nothing was really happening but they kept me overnight and your
dad was really so cute because he was sitting in a just all night long,
just a metal chair with his hands on his forehead head down on the bed
just trying to rest like that. Then they released me the next morning,
went home, and sure enough the next day or that day actually went into
real labor and so went into the hospital, but I went in too early. And so
they lay you on the bed, they strap you into the fetal monitor and you
don't move. Back in that day, you just did not move. You got an IV and you
did not move. And so labor was so long and so prolonged and um exhausting
, really just tremendously exhausting and as it was getting closer to
being dilated 10 centimeters and totally effaced. They gave me some
Demerol. And then when it came time to push, it was so hard to push. I
just had nothing. I was like just in Lala land. But I finally got you out
and um. I just was, I remember Robert and I were just so thrilled. This
little girl with just this long to the ears hair and biggest crying baby
I've ever seen in my life, just so, so cute. So I'm going to go back to a
couple of points. So you were. Try not to say you or your dad, because
then in the editing it won't make people listening, so just say the father
or the baby, or you can use names for us, but I wondered about that.
OK. The Mama was one of the at the time it was pretty new, I think, and it
was the first time the father was really integrated into the process. So
can you talk about how Robert was with that? I mean, was he?
Like, was he helping you breathe or the classes with you? Robert did go to
the classes and he did he did participate, but at home I did everything
myself and um, even having the babies, I was more comfortable doing it on
my own. To me, to have someone rubbing your back or rubbing your leg or
rubbing your head or rubbing, are you OK constantly asking questions would
have made me. Made the process much more difficult. So during the delivery
or just the labor experience in the hospital when dad was in the room, um
, did he, he was there like throughout the entire time even when I was
born. And then I did have to have an episiotomy, which was kind of a shock
for me, um, just the cutting and the stitching and then the pain
afterwards. Um, but Robert was not a very Um, he's a, he's scientific and
so the emotional end of it was never really there. You know, so, but it,
but I was so filled with emotion that I don't think I noticed that it
wasn't there.
Um, he came around here with this anyway, but um. So you, so when I had
the episiotomy, I had an epidural. So what is it like if you don't have an
epidural? The episiotomy when you don't have an epidural is just a lot of
local shots. You had the local shots too. I don't think you remember, but
you were, you had the, the episiotomy, I mean the epidural.
So you felt syringes and you feel syringes and then, but you feel the
tugging from the stitching.
Um, so was there anything about the experience that was surprising or you
didn't feel prepared for?
I just, the first child, you're just not prepared for what real
contractions are like and what um What real labor is like, so you go in, I
think so many people make the mistake of going in too soon. So what, how
would you describe the difference between like the Braxton Hicks and their
real contractions? Pain, pain is the difference. Some of them are just
uncomfortable, real contractions really hurt. Did you carry high or low
low. I carried very low, which was nice. The baby didn't have to drop that
far. Yeah, I'll never forget that. But like when is this gonna happen? It
did.
Um, OK, so then did you have hemorrhoids and stuff like I did? I had a
tremendous hemorrhoids. I have never not had hemorrhoids after that.
Um, OK, so then, baby's born. Do you remember what the process was? Was it
similar to what I went through, or? Um. The process for you being for the
for forest being born is. One of very clinical. It's not like it is today
where people are invited in the room and it it just is so clinical and um
It it just isn't not, it's not his, it was not his um. Friendly as it is
now, you know, it's just cut and dry clinical. So what was the process?
They took the baby, washed the baby, weighed the baby, handed all of, all
of that is done outside of you. In those days it was done not in that same
room. So you were in a you were in a delivery room. You went from a labor
room to a delivery room.
Very clinical with the little, it's like a small operating room. Then they
whisk the baby away, clean it, bring it back, and I tried nursing right
away. I keep saying so you're gonna have to, I don't know how you're going
to figure that out. Yeah, they're both talking over each other.
So tell us to stop. Yeah, it's fine. You should stop though to what I was
talking because she can't edit out the two separate voices,
and I'll I'll try to raise my hand, which implies that I want to make a
comment. Um, but so when after the baby was born, did they just remove the
baby to a different space completely and you were just left there alone?
Yes, after the baby is born, they left. I was in the. Delivery room
getting my my episiotomy sewn up. The baby is taken away and when you want
to see the baby, they don't bring it to you. You get to see it in the
nursery glass first and then hours later they bring you the baby. Wow. So
these days there's like skin to skin contact and immediate nursing. Can
you address that process? Like when you saw the baby where you're nursing
? When I saw the baby, I immediately tried, I immediately started nursing.
So you saw, so you were up and about looking at the baby through the glass.
They would take you in a wheelchair.
And then you go back to a different room from the delivery room. You go
back to your room, your recovery room. And then they bring the baby. At
some point after that, yes, not too long after they just clean it up, put
the little hat on, put the little clothes on, bundle it up in its swaddle
, and then bring the baby in for you to bond with and to nurse. So how was
the nursing? I found the nursing so simple. I thought it was awesome. I
remember one time I had taken a shower. I was so hugely engorged. I never
had big breasts until I, my first baby. I was so engorged and I came out
to Robert and said, Look at these tits. They were huge, and he was like,
Oh my God, they were, they were huge, but they were rocks. I mean lumpy,
lumpy rocks. So you produced a lot of milk. I could have fed a small
nation.
So, um, sometimes you know when you would just talk about the nursing
process and you would um mention like that their mouths would be like just
full of milk or can you elaborate a little bit more on that or is that
more with later children? No, no, that happened with with forests too. I
would nurse and I could feel a letdown and the baby would be suckling and
then the milk would come with the letdown and they'd pull away and 5 or 6
streams of milk would be shooting him in the face, all under the neck.
They smelled like cottage cheese. And um poor little things, they just
about suffocate.
Cause it's coming so fast, so fast. It's very funny. Um, so would you have
, how were you, did you anticipate the whole coming home part? Was there
like a little nursery or how did you think about that? Did you know the
sex? After I had you, no, before, just to, to buy clothes and to set up a
space, and we were not told sex at that time and but the nursery was
decorated in Disney things. I remember Fantasia kind of looking stuff and
um we were not, we were young, we didn't have a lot of money, so there was
a crib and there was a small bed for me in case I needed it and a rocking
chair. And um thank God Boris took a pacifier because she was a fussy baby.
And would have loved to have been attached to the breast the whole time.
Um, so, let's see. How do you want to transition? Um, did you want to
mention anything about recovery or physically recovering? Um,
the weight come off right away. The weight came off right away. I was very
surprised. I was very thin shortly after having. Forest Which I have to
admit was very nice. The sad part about my story is that the boobs did not
last.
And the divorce. And then I got divorced 15 months after because I was
just so into being a parent and um. Robert and I were just so incompatible.
Um, so then can you maybe. Uh, maybe just briefly talk about what that was.
I mean, did you go live with Judy with a newborn baby? Like how? Um I got
divorced when Force was 15 months old and um I moved from the Houston to
New Orleans and um lived with Judy for a little bit, founded my own
apartment. It was actually like a duplex living next door to the owner's
mother who was a little Italian lady who adored Forrest and watched her
while I worked and um. And Robert would fly in from Houston very regularly
come and visit us, have dinner with us, and because it was hard for him,
you know, to have such a young child, but babies grow up real quick, you
know, before I knew it, Forrest was flying back and forth to see him on
her own. He was coming regularly to see her. Um, it just, it just turned
out to be OK.
Is there anything you wanna say to kind of um summarize that story because
we might break them up into two separate stories, um, you know what I mean
? So like if you reflect on the experience, um, is there anything that you
would because we're putting separating them into themes, um, because some
people will talk about having faith, you know, like having to have faith
in their bodies and the experience or. Um, like in my case, it was like
trauma, you know what I mean, was one of the major things, or, you know
what I mean, is there any way that you can. Sum it up a little bit.
No, I don't, I don't have a summary. I know I do remember being sad that I
didn't have my family nearby, but Robert's family was so devoted to
Forrest that I mean really made tremendous efforts to participate in her
life. I think that I gave them the greatest gift they ever had, and so, um
, that definitely. Brought brought joy to all of us. But I don't, I
wouldn't know a summary except for to say any time anybody who has a first
child is um
In strange waters, you feel like I remember one time I gave Forrest a bath
her umbilical cord had just fallen off, and I could get in the bathtub
with her and um so I have her on my legs. I've got my knees up and she's
resting on my legs and I'm washing her face and I'm washing under her arms
and I'm washing her legs. I turned her over to wash her back and wash her
little bottom and her feet and then I turned her back and she was like.
Almost drowned in the water because her face was in the water the whole
time, you know, it's just so much responsibility. It's just so huge for
this little creature who's so dependent. It's phenomenal. And somehow they
survive.
That was perfect. That was perfect. Excellent. I'm glad you remember that
story. That was really good because there's such a big gap between my
birth and the other kids that it would be a lot of explaining, moving in
relationships and all that stuff, but Mike's is a really good one. I love
that when you tell the story of just telling him
about Mike so we could probably transition to that now. So um.
Maybe Uh, you can kind of, you can approach it kind of like it's a news
story, but you can, you can say, um, in the beginning part that, um, you
know, that you had a young child, you and your younger your first child
who was 5 moved to Illinois or whatever. Do you know what I mean just to
kind of give it some I say forest? Yeah, yeah, you can say forest, but I
would definitely say my first child because if we separate them, we won't
know who forest, OK. Yeah, you did my first child for us, and then from
that point on, you can use my name OK. So start, yeah, I would OK. Um, and
this can be, so after prefacing the location and stuff, then you can think
, talk about the conception or whatever.
I moved from Chicago, um sorry, I moved from New Orleans to Chicago when
my first child Forest was 5 years old and I went to work for um I was
engaged to a man, um, that it didn't work out once we started actually
living together and um so I moved out on my own and went to work for a man
who owned apartment complexes and his name was Mike and um shortly after I
went to work for Mike, he and I started dating. And Dating him was
difficult because he was very, very hard on his employees, but I thought
he would be very, very good to the people in his family and uh that wasn't
always the case and so I ended up breaking up with him when I broke up
with him, I went to work for Citibank and but I still lived in the complex
that he owned and so he would see me and my first child Forest walking
around the complex. And he would come and visit and things like that and
we ended up getting back together and um getting married and um. Well, uh
, scratch that we ended up getting back together and after two years of
being back together, I thought I could not have another child, so I didn't
practice birth control and everything was fine for 2 years and then I
ended up getting pregnant and when I told him that I was pregnant, he said
, You have made me the happiest man in the world, and we planned our
wedding right after that. And so, um, the pregnancy with Mary, my second
child, was so easy. It is textbook what you would wish it would be. I
gained 24 pounds. Um, I was all belly, all baby. The pregnancy had never a
day of morning sickness, um.
Just perfect, not water retention. It was just a great pregnancy. And um I
knew from my first pregnancy with Forrest, I did not want to go in the
hospital too early. So about midnight I could feel contractions, real
contractions, and I woke Mike up and said I'm having contractions but
continue to sleep because I'm, it's gonna be a while and I just went in
the family room and had my contractions on my own. I practiced my Lamas
really well so I was really, really using the Lama at that time. And Mike
woke up and um I told him it's gonna be a full day. He was gonna go. He
played polo. He was gonna go ride the horses and come back. And so my
sister Judy was there from New Orleans and I had a little Honda Prelude
and it was a stick shift and she did not know how to how to ride it or
drive it and I was telling her, gosh, Judy, my back is just killing me.
I'm in so much pain and she said, Well, call your doctor and tell him you
need paragoric because paragoric will stop false labor. I called my doctor.
I said, I need paraoric because paraoric will stop false labor. He said,
when do you do? And I said, Oh, I'm, I'm 2 weeks past due. And so he's
like Come in and he said go to the hospital. I said, no, I'm not going to
the hospital. I've been there, done that. I don't want to go there too
early, he said, Well, at least come in. So I went in and I signed my name
. I figured they knew that I, you know, was having contractions and I just
sat down and I waited and I waited and I waited. It had to be almost an
hour and I finally went up to the window and I said, you know, I think I
might be in labor. Am I gonna get seen soon? They said, Peggy, why didn't
you tell us? So I went in, got the room, and I was dilated 7 centimeters,
and but my sister Judy couldn't drive the, the stick shift car so I said
Judy, I'll just and we had my first daughter for us and her son George
with us and um. So I said, well, I just have to go home. And wait for Mike.
So I went home. I finished making my tuna salad, and Mike came in and he
had finished riding the horses that he asked, Do I have time to take a
shower? I said, Well, I really would wish you didn't. So we got in the car
, drove the 7 minutes to the hospital. And when I came in, it was 12
o'clock. And I checked in and they made me wait for a candy striper to get
go up to the. Delivery room.
And I waited and waited and waited for a candy striper till my water broke
there and it just gushed out and it was so embarrassing.
So a woman in the emergency room said stands up and she says, I, I'm an
employee here, she said, Do you want me to go get you a Kotex to put in
your underwear? And I'm thinking, how would I do that? Just slide it in
there, right there in the emergency room. So I started to cry. I said, no
, I just wanna go up to the delivery room. And so finally the candy and
Mike went ballistic and he's saying get me somebody to take her up there.
And finally the candy striper came. We went up. I checked in at the
emergency room at 12 o'clock. By the time I got up to the room, barely got
laid in the bed and had Mary at 12:20.
And so thank goodness we lived close to the hospital, but the delivery was
awesome. It was so simple. Mike asked me, you want me to rub your back or
what? I said, No, just leave me to do my own thing, and I really did my
Lamas properly and it was I didn't even have the episiotomy with with Mary.
I, but I did tear, but um man, such an easy delivery, such a different
experience from my first child. Baby stayed right there. They put it right
to my chest, right to my breast, um. I remember Mike got a little dizzy.
They asked if he was OK and he got, went and stood out in the hallway, uh
, but it was just so, so different from my first one and also so different
with just a natural 20 minute delivery.
After that they took me to my room where where the baby was right there in
the bassinet, which was just so much so much better for the bonding. And
then they came and took Mary away and I took a shower and I got I had a
beautiful pinnoa set that I had purchased. I put makeup on, did my hair, I
had my pinnoa set on and Mike came in and he said, You are the most
beautiful woman I've ever seen, and it just was like just so perfect. But
the better part of that story is he went to Portillo's and bought me a
double beef cheeseburger, an order of fries, and a large chocolate shake,
which was the best meal I think I've ever had. I love that contrast like
the just how coiffed you were and then you're eating this like really
picture it picture it. I had my because back then you had a lot of eye
shadow, remember. I, I, uh, eye shadow that went from your lower lid to
your upper lid, eyeliner out, red lipstick, and I've got this big juicy
double beef cheeseburger going down. I was so hungry. So I didn't realize
Mike was in the room for the delivery. Was that the case with all of them
? No, he was not there for Caroline.
Well, that's a really, that's a really good story. Well, then, then after
I had Mary, I went home 12 hours later. Because I just felt like you
couldn't get any sleep in the hospital. The bad thing about going home 12
hours later was I was also cooking dinner that night and taking care of
the baby, and Boris was such a big help. My first daughter was 7 years
older and tremendous, tremendous help. I thought you were gonna say like
just horrible. No, you're a tremendous help. I don't remember I said I
don't know how I could have done it without you because Mike was Mike was
15 years older than me and he was not one he never changed a diaper. He
never gave a child a bath, never read a child a story. He was not an
involved father because when he had his kids, it was kind of that a
different generation of. Yeah, he was an old man. He did. He just didn't,
it was a different generation. You just didn't do that. You patted him on
the head as they walked by.
And then with my 3rd child, Caroline. Um, she was a surprise and um I was
Mike and I had um gotten annulments from the Catholic Church for our prior
marriages and so we had scheduled a wedding to be married through the
church and sure enough I was 3 months pregnant with Caroline just like I
was 3 months pregnant with Mary when we got married and but still never
showing with Caroline I gained 22, 24 pounds. Um, very again, very easy
pregnancy, um. We should mention how big they were too. It's true, because
it makes the 22 pound weight gain even stranger and you know. Is there a
specific order you want me to mention that in? No, I mean you can you can
say both children were OK.
Um, I lost my train of thought. Well, you just mentioned that you weren't
showing and that you had you had only gained 22 pounds, which is why I
thought, you know, which is unusual considering how big they were. You
were at the wedding. Uh, so after the wedding. And we just proceeded with
life as normal again, very easy pregnancy, no morning sickness. Um, it was
like I was made to have babies. If I could have, I would have had been a
surrogate mother because it was so easy for me. And Caroline was born
November 12th, so prior to that I was trying to get uh fruit cake made for
the staff. We Mike had employed 60 people and I was making, you know,
these 1 pound fruit cakes from this woman, this little old lady who really
had a very famous fruit cake recipe. So we went to the restaurant that
Mike owned, and he stayed in Barrington Hills, and this was in in um.
It by the airport. I can't think of the name of that place. Shiller Park
And so I, but I was very big and pregnant. My children, Caroline, Mary and
John weighed 9.5 pounds each.
So I was on my feet all night long trying to make these cheesecakes or
these carrot cakes, uh, trying to make the fruit cakes. And stayed till
almost midnight and when I left there was a blizzard and I had a BMW L7
and just trying to drive home, the car was too much had too much engine
for that kind of weather and I was going 7 miles an hour on the highway
fish tailing the whole way home.
I remember being so exhausted, the back pain was so terrible and um then
shortly after that. A couple of girlfriends came over to help me wrap the
fruit cake for the staff, and I remember thinking, oh my God, my back is
killing me and I would, this might be gross, but you can edit this out but
I kept having to go #2 and it was just like constant, constant. My back
was hurting so badly and finally I and Mike was out of town. He was in
Boca Raton, Florida renting us a house for the winter season. And um, Lois
Lois was there and.
What was her name?
Yeah, she was a sweetheart too. I know you're Eloise. No, no, Eloise was
not a sweetheart. Um, Fran, Lois and Fran were there to help me wrap the
fruit cake, and finally Lois said Peg, let's just take you to the hospital.
And so she took me and um. Again, just went in, got sent up to the room.
They tried to put a fetal monitor on me that it would not take, so they
wanted to put one vaginally, and I said no, um, and so the doctor, um, did
not insist upon it. I had an awesome doctor for all of these children. I
never had an IV, never even had to have an IV. He let me just always do it
on my own. He was the best doctor ever and um. Had Caroline that night and
Mike rushed home after, you know, to see after the delivery and um stayed
in the hospital 12 hours that night or the next day and went went home
again cooking dinner.
He must have just thought you were like superwoman. Mike thought I should
have a baby a year.
No, he really did. He because he played polo and he had a herd of 35
ponies, he kept thinking what he should do is what they do with the horses.
After 9 days of 9 days after horse delivers, they breed them back. It's
like, no, that's not for me. How is that even a term? I know, because they
breed them back.
Wow. So why would you take on these crazy endeavors so far along pregnant
and all that? You just didn't feel you were just comfortable being
pregnant to the point where Caroline came 2 weeks early.
And I was not comfortable being pregnant, but I, you know, it's, it's a
sense of responsibility that you have. You want to be superwoman.
So With this uh um 9 year old, a 2 year old, a new baby. Why was I making
fruit cakes? I don't have any idea.
Yeah, it's amazing. Or when a staff could have done that too. Hey, look,
you can go to Harrod's and buy fruitcake. You don't need to make it. I
will tell you though, it was the best fruit cake I've ever had, and I
don't like fruitcake.
Um, OK, so where are we at? Caroline just got born. Caroline was born and
it was again the awesome delivery, awesome delivery room, used all my
lamas, um.
Method, even though she was 2 weeks early, she was 9.5 pounds. The doctor
said thank goodness she was born early because she would have been 11
pounds.
Was it the same with Mary where there's a little bassinet and it was
exactly the same. They they put the baby on your chest. You could bond
with the child right away. Mike wasn't there, but Lois Lois was there and
she was so close to my children. They called her granny. And she wanted to
help me. She wanted, I felt bad about this because she wanted to rub my
feet or talk to me through the contractions which don't talk to a woman
when she's having a contraction, especially if she's practicing Lama. It
takes effort to try to not tense up and. To be relaxed, um, but I felt
really bad because I said, Lois, please just leave me alone. I can do this
on my own. You had tremendous um self-control, or can you elaborate on
that? Was that a surprise to you? Did you find that you were like that in
life?
I don't know if I'd call it self-control. I, if there's a job to be done,
you just have to do it. And if you want to do a job, the easiest way.
Follow the instructions of people who've done it before and studied it and
and can walk you through. I was very lucky too. I didn't have any
complications. There was no complications with the babies. Mary had the
umbilical cord wrapped around her neck. I had the most phenomenal doctor
ever. That was all taken care of, no problem.
No child was breech. No child was. I had a, I think Caroline was upside
down. Her face was up instead of down, but he just turned it this, this, I
had the same doctor deliver my last three children, and he was, he really
is in heaven. I just know it. He was the world's greatest doctor. It's
funny because you'll say like everything was fine and then it's like, oh,
well, Mary had this umbilical cord. No, Caroline was upside down. But
those are, those really are a lot of the process of childbirth and that a
lot of people want to have their children at home, but I would, I would
not do that just for those specific reasons, although there are some very
, very skilled midwives who know what to do in those cases, but I felt
more comfortable being in a hospital.
You also had a doctor that if you said, I don't want this intervention, he
didn't insist upon it. I had a doctor who let me do it myself. He was
awesome. It seems like a lot of times um women don't really trust their
doctors, and that's a big part of the problem, but you, did you have find
that you really felt like you could trust him? Everybody could trust this
doctor.
Everybody, when this doctor died, there were thousands of people who came
to his funeral. And every one of them had a birthing delivery GYN story.
That's amazing. OK, so Mike, when is the first time Mike sees Caroline?
He saw her the next day in the hospital because again I only stayed I
think with Caroline I stayed 10 hours. She was born at night. I went home
the next morning.
Were you, um, you know, not many women have talked about this, but I
remember being, not shocked, but well kind of shocked about all the blood
afterwards at home, you know, it's like bleeding. It felt like Weeks. I
don't really remember how long it was. Was that stuff that you that people
talked about or were you just prepared after having your first birth and
how the recovery part of it? The recovery after having a child um is hard
because every one of them I I either tore or I had an episiotomy and that
stitching is, is, it's hard. It's hard to sit down and to recover from,
and the hemorrhoids were just so bad. And um the bleeding is.
Quite a lot more than you would expect, and it goes on for a lot longer
than you would think. I do recall 6 weeks and I remember I had a 2 year
old at home and I had a new baby and I would go to the bathroom and my 2
year old would say, Mom, do you need any cotton? Because she knew I had to
have another a Kotex to. Protect from the blood.
It's crazy. It's, it's crazy the amount of, you know, it's like you're,
you of course have all those endorphins and you know you're breastfeeding
, so there's all this excitement over the newborn, but at the same time
you're like, you know, it's overwhelming. It is, it's overwhelming and I
remember I would just stay in the hospital such a short time and I'd come
home and I would cook dinner and feed babies and I just remember one time
when Mary was little.
Probably 4 months old. All I wanted to do was sit down and have a quiet
meal, just, and I can eat fast. I just wanted to sit down and finish my
meal and the babies always started at right at mealtime. And this is after
I've cooked a meal, set the table. Um, just wanted to sit down and have a
meal, so I put her in my bedroom, and she was little, she should not have
really been moving around that much. I don't really think she was even 4
months old. And when I came back after 15, maybe 7 minutes. She was
nowhere to be found. I was panicking. Where is she? And I, and she cried
herself so hard she'd crawled herself under the bed and fallen asleep. And
I was in a panic like. Where was she? Like someone who nabbed her or or
got it taken her away. I didn't deserve her. I don't know.
It's so funny because it always comes back to that because it's always,
you know, you feel like it's punishment you've taken this moment to
yourself and. Oh yeah, I remember so many years, no showers without
children in the bathroom. My all of my last 3 children were potty trained
at 18 months because they went to the bathroom with me every single time.
They knew exactly what to do. I never had a bowel movement without a
child in the bathroom.
Did you resent Mike's kind of? Whatever that way of parenting was the
aloofness or his non-engagement with that process, I mean you must have
had friends that had younger husbands were they different? You, you know,
I didn't have much socialization with people that had young children
because Mike was 15 years older than me and um he was very powerful and
ran a a a big business and his work was really very consuming. Um, and I
had a father who had 6 children, and he just was never really one of those
dads that you see today either, so I was used to that. I was used to a
father who didn't change diapers, who didn't feed the kids who didn't read
them bedtime stories, and in my opinion. It's very, very sad for that
father because he's missed out on some of the biggest joys of having
children. And they don't know what they're missing.
Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean, you know that when we talked to BK, you just
like. I know I just They just didn't do it. Worked all the time, you know.
Um, so, OK, and then, 9 months later or when did you get pregnant again?
Can you go from, because you, it sounds like you're, you know, you have a
kid and each hip, you're doing all this stuff and. So, so John, see
Caroline was November 12th. 86, and John was August 30th, 88. So November
, so a year and.
7 months A year and 7 months later I was pregnant with my 4th child who
was planned because my husband Mike wanted to have a little boy so bad
even though he'd had two boys from a previous marriage, he wanted to have
a boy and I said, Mike, I'm not going to have a baby. One after the other
until you get a boy. I'm not sure I would have a boy. My father had 6
daughters. So many of my sisters had girls. I only had 1 sister that had
boys at that time. And so I said that, uh, I, I will ask my OBGYN what I
can do. When I went to see him, he said I could go to a clinic that did a
lot of fertility work, but that they could do sex selection. And so I went
to the clinic, talked to the doctor, and he's indeed said yes that was an
option for me. So Mike and I went to the clinic. Mike would go into his
into the room and make give his specimen and um they tested it and it was
had 50 million sperm so there was no low sperm count, but it was higher on
the female. And so what they did was they washed the sperm they spun it
and washed it and separated male from female. And so the day that we were
going in, of course, Mike running his business, always so busy. We went in
and um Mike gave a sample.
They put me in the room. Um, injected. The sample and instead of Mike
sitting there talking to me, giving me a kiss on the cheek, holding my
hand, he was out in the hallway talking on the phone, and I do remember
laying there because they put your hips higher than your head, and I do
remember the tears rolling down my eyes into my ears just feeling so alone
at that moment of conception. And um
But you know you just sort of bucked it up then, you know, you just, you
knew that was a battle you weren't gonna win. You're, you're not going to
change the core of who someone is. So then uh of course you wait and wait
and wait and continue with the pregnancy and until it comes time to find
out if it's a boy or a girl and Mike was again in Florida.
And I found out we were all in Florida actually and I found out that I
called the doctor and he said yes, it is a boy and I was so excited for
Mike really and he was playing a polo match then and I thought, you know
what I might do? I might get an airplane and have it fly over the polo
field and say Mike, it's a boy. But I thought, oh, what a silly expense,
you know, I, I can tell him myself. So after the game, we went out and I
told him, you know, Mike, I, I know you really wanted a boy. I found out
the sex of the baby. Are you gonna be OK if it's a girl or if it's a boy?
And he was really like, oh gosh, it's another girl. I said it's a boy, and
he was so excited. And then I told him that I had planned on maybe doing
the airplane thing and he said, I wish you'd have done that would have
been awesome, but who knows, you know. Um, so did you just like get
pregnant right away after the sex insemination? I was pregnant right away.
Mike and I really almost never even had to talk about having a baby, or
we could talk about it, never had to have the act. I would just talk about
it and be pregnant.
Um, why did you not think you could get pregnant after your first? I was
actually told that because of the DNC there was scarring, but then you had
a baby. But I had another, um, another, um.
Miscarriage. That's interesting. So with, with a different man? Oh, OK. Um
, was that a relief? This is off the record, but just out of my own. It
was so fast. It was like I didn't even know I was pregnant, and then I
lost it. You know, so it was like no time to get worried or no time. I
don't think I even told him. Yeah, but then with that, then it impacted
the rest of your life. So you thought. So I thought, yeah, but you know I
would have been happy with one baby. I'd be happy with one grandchild.
It's too bad you couldn't have babies for the rest of us, I know.
So then after that with that pregnancy, everything I remember being so
boggled with just the responsibility of three children and two so close
together. I remember being in Florida and Mary was fussing and I had
Caroline in my arms and I'm trying to make dinner reservations because we
had such a social life which sounds like my aunt went. But I gave Caroline
the cap to a Perrier bottle and she's like putting it in her mouth and
it's like going down her throat, you know, it's like it just taking care
of so much responsibility. Thank goodness nothing happened, but all I'm
saying is it's so overwhelming.
But that pregnancy went well again gained about 22, 24 pounds um when it
came time for delivery, I went in, um, same doctor and you know didn't
have to have an IV. Um, Mike was there. Uh, the doctor said, Peg, do you
mind if I have some interns come in because I'd like them to see what a
natural childbirth is like? And I said, no, that's OK. I expected one or
two interns to come in. There were literally doctors lining the walls of
the delivery room. And the baby just came out. Again pieceiotomy stitching
up and on my chest bonding, absolutely adorable, so glad I had a little
boy. The relationship is just so special and um Mike was happy and all was
right with the world. Can you, um, can mention because I think it's quite
funny how you had agreed to the third child, but then you wanted to have
help for the rest of your life. I had agreed to having the 3rd child, the
boy. I had Mike sign a piece of paper that said. I could have live-in care
for the children as long as I wanted if they lived at home until they were
30, if I wanted to live in care, I could have live-in care and so and that
really was a deciding factor for me because I knew I was, I was in over my
head and um unfortunately 2 years later. Um, on Mother's Day, Mike beat me
up, broke my nose, and I got divorced and I had no live-in care. So it was
in, I was in an overwhelming situation. You were truly a single parent. I
was truly a single parent, and there remained that way until. John was
15
Caroline was 17, Mary was 19.
And you were 26? How old are you?
I think I was in I was in graduate school. I graduated grad school and
started teaching college at 23, so I was 21.
I think when I met Dick, John, John was 11, but we married at 13. When
John was 13. So 11. 1315, and you would have been. 24, 23, 24, yeah.
Gosh, yeah, I'm always wrong with that. I always think it's me too. Um,
well, can you kind of reflect on that experience? I mean, do you, I mean
it's hard to say on record. You regretted having the kids or anything. Oh
no, I never did regret having the kids, um, but I will say it was hard. It
was hard because I had myself and 3 children. Mike fortunately was wealthy
enough that I didn't have to work. I can't imagine.