WEBVTT 00:00:00.330 --> 00:00:06.447 And it is 140. So this is for Solis interviewing Margaret Holtz for the 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:10.967 Creative Push project on September 13th at 1:40. So to just start out with 00:00:11.000 --> 00:00:14.445 , why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself while um Ashley's 00:00:14.478 --> 00:00:20.887 addressing the levels and things. I'm 62 years old. I live in Michigan and 00:00:20.920 --> 00:00:28.506 in Phoenix. I have been a single mother for. 00:00:28.539 --> 00:00:32.057 22 years. 00:00:32.090 --> 00:00:36.006 I can adjust my seat to over. 00:00:36.039 --> 00:00:41.506 You're one of 6 girls I'm one of 6 daughters. My mother died when I was 9. 00:00:41.539 --> 00:00:46.207 My dad remarried when I was 10. He remarried a woman who I thought was 00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:51.926 the evil stepmother until I had 4 children of my own, and then I realized 00:00:51.959 --> 00:00:55.156 she was a saint. 00:00:55.189 --> 00:01:00.875 Yeah, I can't imagine. And that my 5 sisters and I all, except for the 00:01:00.908 --> 00:01:05.036 Judy is the exception that had a terrible birth because she had 2 uteruses. 00:01:05.069 --> 00:01:11.635 We all had simple natural childbirths, so we were very lucky. I get Judy. 00:01:11.668 --> 00:01:16.717 You should get Judy. I don't know how to make that happen. Um, OK, so, uh 00:01:16.750 --> 00:01:20.915 , why don't you, so Judy does want to come here. Oh good, yeah, we'll do 00:01:20.948 --> 00:01:27.415 that. So, um, we can start with my birth. Uh, if you can talk about, um, 00:01:27.448 --> 00:01:32.727 the conception, you know, was it planned, desired? Take us back to that 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:39.859 time, you know, set up the location and the time in your life. It was 1976. 00:01:39.969 --> 00:01:41.969 And I was married to a man who did not want to be married to a smoker. And 00:01:44.558 --> 00:01:48.805 so that was one of our big arguments until I decided I wanted to have a 00:01:48.838 --> 00:01:53.326 baby and that was a good reason to quit smoking so I went through hypnosis 00:01:53.359 --> 00:01:57.087 and it was successful and then I started using my hands to make little 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:01.337 felt Christmas ornaments and things like that and lo and behold I got 00:02:01.370 --> 00:02:08.177 pregnant unexpectedly. And um told everybody at work in an elevator 00:02:08.210 --> 00:02:12.536 wherever I was, I told the grocery store clerk I was having a baby and 00:02:12.569 --> 00:02:16.376 then 3 months later I lost it and then I had to tell everybody that I lost 00:02:16.409 --> 00:02:21.416 the baby and I went in back in that day they made you have an emergency 00:02:21.449 --> 00:02:25.805 DNC, so I went in for the emergency D&C and I was told not to try to get 00:02:25.838 --> 00:02:29.217 pregnant again for 6 months and in 2 months I was pregnant with my 00:02:29.250 --> 00:02:31.797 daughter Forest. 00:02:31.830 --> 00:02:37.297 And it was a good pregnancy, um, never any morning sickness. I gained 45 00:02:37.330 --> 00:02:42.835 pounds. I'd look at my husband. I'd be sitting on the bathroom vanity 00:02:42.868 --> 00:02:48.717 close to the mirror, putting M&M's in Frito scoops, crying, Why am I so 00:02:48.750 --> 00:02:51.077 fat? 00:02:51.110 --> 00:02:58.225 And he'd be like, OK, let's think. That's the uh scientist in him. Well, 00:02:58.258 --> 00:03:01.626 let's see, why is she so bad? 00:03:01.659 --> 00:03:07.696 I need to pause so I can laugh out loud. Oh my goodness. So what was Dad's 00:03:07.729 --> 00:03:12.177 response when you got pregnant though? Was he on board with having a baby 00:03:12.210 --> 00:03:16.457 ? He was very sad when I lost the baby. I'll tell you a private story. I 00:03:16.490 --> 00:03:21.696 was over at Aunt Judy's house, and um I knew that I was spotting. And so I 00:03:21.729 --> 00:03:25.237 was going to the doctor and he said, lay down, get your feet up, and I 00:03:25.270 --> 00:03:29.255 wanted that baby so bad that I remember if I had gas and had to push a 00:03:29.288 --> 00:03:34.797 poop out, I think, oh I'm gonna lose the baby. But you know, pooping has 00:03:34.830 --> 00:03:39.536 nothing to do with whether or not you're gonna lose a baby. 00:03:39.569 --> 00:03:41.927 I don't know why I'm finding this so funny. I wonder if it's just because 00:03:41.960 --> 00:03:47.166 you're my mother, um. Can I 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:53.066 edit it out. Oh yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't know if that's, um, but anyway, 00:03:53.099 --> 00:03:58.707 so then, yes, I did lose the baby, and, um, I remember your father was so 00:03:58.740 --> 00:04:04.906 sweet and so sad and um had the D&C, came home, had to tell everybody at 00:04:04.939 --> 00:04:09.335 work, you know, that I'd lost the baby, and, um, and we weren't trying, we 00:04:09.368 --> 00:04:12.225 weren't trying not to, we weren't trying to, but a few months later I was 00:04:12.258 --> 00:04:15.967 pregnant with you. So you were 3 months pregnant when you had the 00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:19.507 miscarriage. Yes, did you feel pregnant? Well, yes, because when it's your 00:04:19.540 --> 00:04:24.325 first pregnancy, you just think every little anything is, oh, I'm pregnant 00:04:24.358 --> 00:04:30.726 , you know, um, just anything you're so, so acutely aware of your body. 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:33.887 And so yeah, I think I, I probably shouldn't have because it was probably 00:04:33.920 --> 00:04:38.567 as big as a pee, but yes, I thought, I thought I felt pregnant. That 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:43.257 probably made it worse too. Yeah, yeah. And then my sisters had lost 00:04:43.290 --> 00:04:46.495 babies, but nobody ever talked about it, so so many of them had lost their 00:04:46.528 --> 00:04:51.086 first pregnancy, which is really natural. the body tends to do that. Yeah 00:04:51.119 --> 00:04:54.877 , it's more common than I think people, 00:04:54.910 --> 00:04:57.406 um, OK, so then you were pregnant the second time, and then did you tell 00:04:57.439 --> 00:05:02.495 people? I told people all again right immediately afterwards, um and the 00:05:02.528 --> 00:05:08.226 pregnancy was good. I um remember back in '79, 78 when I was pregnant. Um 00:05:08.259 --> 00:05:12.947 , we wore those pants with those big panels in the front and then the 00:05:12.980 --> 00:05:16.387 little short baby doll shirts that you could actually see the panel in the 00:05:16.420 --> 00:05:20.947 front and it went from hip to hip way down into your thighs. They were the 00:05:20.980 --> 00:05:24.666 worst pants and the worst little shirts. Now that's not an image. I don't 00:05:24.699 --> 00:05:27.187 know what is. 00:05:27.220 --> 00:05:30.426 There was quite a bit of fashion faux pas kind of there, but the high 00:05:30.459 --> 00:05:33.947 collars and then the long sleeves and the things that went floor length, 00:05:33.980 --> 00:05:40.075 and then don't forget the little puff that little puff sleeve. Um Yeah, so 00:05:40.108 --> 00:05:46.406 then, um, OK, so you told everyone and the baby took. Now, was there an 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:53.495 issue with the DNC? No issue with the DNC. Yeah, no you. Baby took, 00:05:53.528 --> 00:05:57.705 everything was fine. Except for all the weight gain, I can't, I didn't 00:05:57.738 --> 00:06:01.947 have any, any complications whatsoever. Can you tell the story of your 00:06:01.980 --> 00:06:06.145 life? Look at these tits. I will. That's after the baby came. Oh, it is 00:06:06.178 --> 00:06:10.586 when you were a nurse, OK, um, OK, so then. 00:06:10.619 --> 00:06:14.406 Uh, did you have a support network? I mean, I didn't because I had moved 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:18.486 from New Orleans where my very favorite sister lived and Robert had been 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:22.687 transferred to Houston, so I lived in Houston with him, and he, um, no, I 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:28.656 did not have a support network except for via the telephone. And um But 00:06:28.689 --> 00:06:33.137 I'm, I don't remember that being a problem because I was so active and, um 00:06:33.170 --> 00:06:39.377 , you know, made friends easily, so that wasn't a big issue, yeah, not so 00:06:39.410 --> 00:06:44.687 many that had kids. I just was so thrilled to have my own, you know, and 00:06:44.720 --> 00:06:50.805 I'm just family oriented. I'm not one that needs a huge group. So was 00:06:50.838 --> 00:06:54.846 there, were you to practicing Lama? I was practicing Lama, yes, that was 00:06:54.879 --> 00:07:00.687 very interesting and um. I thought it was, I just thought it was a godsend 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:04.346 that it helped so much. 00:07:04.379 --> 00:07:08.137 Um, and I took it very seriously. 00:07:08.170 --> 00:07:12.645 Do you want water? I thought that's your water there. 00:07:12.678 --> 00:07:16.036 Yeah, you can take your time. 00:07:16.069 --> 00:07:20.187 So I would practice Lamas at home and um which really really helped during 00:07:20.220 --> 00:07:26.546 the birthing process because um when I went into labor um well first of 00:07:26.579 --> 00:07:31.046 all I had Braxton Hicks contractions for 3 months before labor so every 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:36.437 day it felt like is today the day and then um I went past my due date and 00:07:36.470 --> 00:07:40.116 so the Braxton Hicks were getting pretty severe so I thought well I must 00:07:40.149 --> 00:07:45.156 be in labor and I had your dad. Take me to the hospital and they examined 00:07:45.189 --> 00:07:48.877 me and nothing was really happening but they kept me overnight and your 00:07:48.910 --> 00:07:53.075 dad was really so cute because he was sitting in a just all night long, 00:07:53.108 --> 00:07:58.356 just a metal chair with his hands on his forehead head down on the bed 00:07:58.389 --> 00:08:01.895 just trying to rest like that. Then they released me the next morning, 00:08:01.928 --> 00:08:07.116 went home, and sure enough the next day or that day actually went into 00:08:07.149 --> 00:08:12.586 real labor and so went into the hospital, but I went in too early. And so 00:08:12.619 --> 00:08:16.476 they lay you on the bed, they strap you into the fetal monitor and you 00:08:16.509 --> 00:08:19.515 don't move. Back in that day, you just did not move. You got an IV and you 00:08:19.548 --> 00:08:24.495 did not move. And so labor was so long and so prolonged and um exhausting 00:08:24.528 --> 00:08:29.217 , really just tremendously exhausting and as it was getting closer to 00:08:29.250 --> 00:08:33.816 being dilated 10 centimeters and totally effaced. They gave me some 00:08:33.849 --> 00:08:38.255 Demerol. And then when it came time to push, it was so hard to push. I 00:08:38.288 --> 00:08:44.436 just had nothing. I was like just in Lala land. But I finally got you out 00:08:44.469 --> 00:08:48.826 and um. I just was, I remember Robert and I were just so thrilled. This 00:08:48.859 --> 00:08:55.346 little girl with just this long to the ears hair and biggest crying baby 00:08:55.379 --> 00:09:01.106 I've ever seen in my life, just so, so cute. So I'm going to go back to a 00:09:01.139 --> 00:09:06.787 couple of points. So you were. Try not to say you or your dad, because 00:09:06.820 --> 00:09:12.025 then in the editing it won't make people listening, so just say the father 00:09:12.058 --> 00:09:19.826 or the baby, or you can use names for us, but I wondered about that. 00:09:19.859 --> 00:09:25.025 OK. The Mama was one of the at the time it was pretty new, I think, and it 00:09:25.058 --> 00:09:28.907 was the first time the father was really integrated into the process. So 00:09:28.940 --> 00:09:35.086 can you talk about how Robert was with that? I mean, was he? 00:09:35.119 --> 00:09:38.765 Like, was he helping you breathe or the classes with you? Robert did go to 00:09:38.798 --> 00:09:42.967 the classes and he did he did participate, but at home I did everything 00:09:43.000 --> 00:09:50.726 myself and um, even having the babies, I was more comfortable doing it on 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:55.525 my own. To me, to have someone rubbing your back or rubbing your leg or 00:09:55.558 --> 00:09:59.206 rubbing your head or rubbing, are you OK constantly asking questions would 00:09:59.239 --> 00:10:05.025 have made me. Made the process much more difficult. So during the delivery 00:10:05.058 --> 00:10:10.427 or just the labor experience in the hospital when dad was in the room, um 00:10:10.460 --> 00:10:14.576 , did he, he was there like throughout the entire time even when I was 00:10:14.609 --> 00:10:19.657 born. And then I did have to have an episiotomy, which was kind of a shock 00:10:19.690 --> 00:10:24.336 for me, um, just the cutting and the stitching and then the pain 00:10:24.369 --> 00:10:32.369 afterwards. Um, but Robert was not a very Um, he's a, he's scientific and 00:10:32.928 --> 00:10:38.956 so the emotional end of it was never really there. You know, so, but it, 00:10:38.989 --> 00:10:43.106 but I was so filled with emotion that I don't think I noticed that it 00:10:43.139 --> 00:10:46.537 wasn't there. 00:10:46.570 --> 00:10:52.557 Um, he came around here with this anyway, but um. So you, so when I had 00:10:52.590 --> 00:10:55.917 the episiotomy, I had an epidural. So what is it like if you don't have an 00:10:55.950 --> 00:10:59.846 epidural? The episiotomy when you don't have an epidural is just a lot of 00:10:59.879 --> 00:11:05.047 local shots. You had the local shots too. I don't think you remember, but 00:11:05.080 --> 00:11:10.336 you were, you had the, the episiotomy, I mean the epidural. 00:11:10.369 --> 00:11:14.157 So you felt syringes and you feel syringes and then, but you feel the 00:11:14.190 --> 00:11:18.047 tugging from the stitching. 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:21.525 Um, so was there anything about the experience that was surprising or you 00:11:21.558 --> 00:11:24.885 didn't feel prepared for? 00:11:24.918 --> 00:11:29.066 I just, the first child, you're just not prepared for what real 00:11:29.099 --> 00:11:35.755 contractions are like and what um What real labor is like, so you go in, I 00:11:35.788 --> 00:11:41.196 think so many people make the mistake of going in too soon. So what, how 00:11:41.229 --> 00:11:45.236 would you describe the difference between like the Braxton Hicks and their 00:11:45.269 --> 00:11:49.907 real contractions? Pain, pain is the difference. Some of them are just 00:11:49.940 --> 00:11:55.625 uncomfortable, real contractions really hurt. Did you carry high or low 00:11:55.658 --> 00:12:00.826 low. I carried very low, which was nice. The baby didn't have to drop that 00:12:00.859 --> 00:12:05.635 far. Yeah, I'll never forget that. But like when is this gonna happen? It 00:12:05.668 --> 00:12:08.275 did. 00:12:08.308 --> 00:12:12.895 Um, OK, so then did you have hemorrhoids and stuff like I did? I had a 00:12:12.928 --> 00:12:19.765 tremendous hemorrhoids. I have never not had hemorrhoids after that. 00:12:19.798 --> 00:12:24.336 Um, OK, so then, baby's born. Do you remember what the process was? Was it 00:12:24.369 --> 00:12:30.217 similar to what I went through, or? Um. The process for you being for the 00:12:30.250 --> 00:12:37.816 for forest being born is. One of very clinical. It's not like it is today 00:12:37.849 --> 00:12:45.586 where people are invited in the room and it it just is so clinical and um 00:12:45.619 --> 00:12:51.547 It it just isn't not, it's not his, it was not his um. Friendly as it is 00:12:51.580 --> 00:12:56.427 now, you know, it's just cut and dry clinical. So what was the process? 00:12:56.460 --> 00:12:59.667 They took the baby, washed the baby, weighed the baby, handed all of, all 00:12:59.700 --> 00:13:04.537 of that is done outside of you. In those days it was done not in that same 00:13:04.570 --> 00:13:09.145 room. So you were in a you were in a delivery room. You went from a labor 00:13:09.178 --> 00:13:12.297 room to a delivery room. 00:13:12.330 --> 00:13:16.875 Very clinical with the little, it's like a small operating room. Then they 00:13:16.908 --> 00:13:22.956 whisk the baby away, clean it, bring it back, and I tried nursing right 00:13:22.989 --> 00:13:26.407 away. I keep saying so you're gonna have to, I don't know how you're going 00:13:26.440 --> 00:13:31.116 to figure that out. Yeah, they're both talking over each other. 00:13:31.149 --> 00:13:36.967 So tell us to stop. Yeah, it's fine. You should stop though to what I was 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:42.025 talking because she can't edit out the two separate voices, 00:13:42.058 --> 00:13:44.917 and I'll I'll try to raise my hand, which implies that I want to make a 00:13:44.950 --> 00:13:52.265 comment. Um, but so when after the baby was born, did they just remove the 00:13:52.298 --> 00:13:56.275 baby to a different space completely and you were just left there alone? 00:13:56.308 --> 00:14:02.885 Yes, after the baby is born, they left. I was in the. Delivery room 00:14:02.918 --> 00:14:07.967 getting my my episiotomy sewn up. The baby is taken away and when you want 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:10.486 to see the baby, they don't bring it to you. You get to see it in the 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:17.657 nursery glass first and then hours later they bring you the baby. Wow. So 00:14:17.690 --> 00:14:22.456 these days there's like skin to skin contact and immediate nursing. Can 00:14:22.489 --> 00:14:26.375 you address that process? Like when you saw the baby where you're nursing 00:14:26.408 --> 00:14:32.129 ? When I saw the baby, I immediately tried, I immediately started nursing. 00:14:32.570 --> 00:14:34.570 So you saw, so you were up and about looking at the baby through the glass. 00:14:38.070 --> 00:14:40.836 They would take you in a wheelchair. 00:14:40.869 --> 00:14:44.375 And then you go back to a different room from the delivery room. You go 00:14:44.408 --> 00:14:49.606 back to your room, your recovery room. And then they bring the baby. At 00:14:49.639 --> 00:14:54.606 some point after that, yes, not too long after they just clean it up, put 00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:58.576 the little hat on, put the little clothes on, bundle it up in its swaddle 00:14:58.609 --> 00:15:04.797 , and then bring the baby in for you to bond with and to nurse. So how was 00:15:04.830 --> 00:15:09.395 the nursing? I found the nursing so simple. I thought it was awesome. I 00:15:09.428 --> 00:15:14.596 remember one time I had taken a shower. I was so hugely engorged. I never 00:15:14.629 --> 00:15:19.596 had big breasts until I, my first baby. I was so engorged and I came out 00:15:19.629 --> 00:15:25.157 to Robert and said, Look at these tits. They were huge, and he was like, 00:15:25.190 --> 00:15:29.145 Oh my God, they were, they were huge, but they were rocks. I mean lumpy, 00:15:29.178 --> 00:15:34.217 lumpy rocks. So you produced a lot of milk. I could have fed a small 00:15:34.250 --> 00:15:37.726 nation. 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:41.846 So, um, sometimes you know when you would just talk about the nursing 00:15:41.879 --> 00:15:46.125 process and you would um mention like that their mouths would be like just 00:15:46.158 --> 00:15:49.486 full of milk or can you elaborate a little bit more on that or is that 00:15:49.519 --> 00:15:53.246 more with later children? No, no, that happened with with forests too. I 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:58.446 would nurse and I could feel a letdown and the baby would be suckling and 00:15:58.479 --> 00:16:01.726 then the milk would come with the letdown and they'd pull away and 5 or 6 00:16:01.759 --> 00:16:04.927 streams of milk would be shooting him in the face, all under the neck. 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:09.446 They smelled like cottage cheese. And um poor little things, they just 00:16:09.479 --> 00:16:11.625 about suffocate. 00:16:11.658 --> 00:16:17.196 Cause it's coming so fast, so fast. It's very funny. Um, so would you have 00:16:17.229 --> 00:16:21.635 , how were you, did you anticipate the whole coming home part? Was there 00:16:21.668 --> 00:16:25.525 like a little nursery or how did you think about that? Did you know the 00:16:25.558 --> 00:16:32.346 sex? After I had you, no, before, just to, to buy clothes and to set up a 00:16:32.379 --> 00:16:37.557 space, and we were not told sex at that time and but the nursery was 00:16:37.590 --> 00:16:44.635 decorated in Disney things. I remember Fantasia kind of looking stuff and 00:16:44.668 --> 00:16:48.677 um we were not, we were young, we didn't have a lot of money, so there was 00:16:48.710 --> 00:16:52.515 a crib and there was a small bed for me in case I needed it and a rocking 00:16:52.548 --> 00:17:00.157 chair. And um thank God Boris took a pacifier because she was a fussy baby. 00:17:00.190 --> 00:17:06.365 And would have loved to have been attached to the breast the whole time. 00:17:06.398 --> 00:17:13.865 Um, so, let's see. How do you want to transition? Um, did you want to 00:17:13.898 --> 00:17:20.835 mention anything about recovery or physically recovering? Um, 00:17:20.868 --> 00:17:24.736 the weight come off right away. The weight came off right away. I was very 00:17:24.769 --> 00:17:30.676 surprised. I was very thin shortly after having. Forest Which I have to 00:17:30.709 --> 00:17:35.467 admit was very nice. The sad part about my story is that the boobs did not 00:17:35.500 --> 00:17:37.785 last. 00:17:37.818 --> 00:17:42.835 And the divorce. And then I got divorced 15 months after because I was 00:17:42.868 --> 00:17:49.400 just so into being a parent and um. Robert and I were just so incompatible. 00:17:50.608 --> 00:17:52.608 Um, so then can you maybe. Uh, maybe just briefly talk about what that was. 00:17:57.989 --> 00:18:03.035 I mean, did you go live with Judy with a newborn baby? Like how? Um I got 00:18:03.068 --> 00:18:08.676 divorced when Force was 15 months old and um I moved from the Houston to 00:18:08.709 --> 00:18:13.565 New Orleans and um lived with Judy for a little bit, founded my own 00:18:13.598 --> 00:18:18.996 apartment. It was actually like a duplex living next door to the owner's 00:18:19.029 --> 00:18:23.516 mother who was a little Italian lady who adored Forrest and watched her 00:18:23.549 --> 00:18:30.706 while I worked and um. And Robert would fly in from Houston very regularly 00:18:30.739 --> 00:18:34.736 come and visit us, have dinner with us, and because it was hard for him, 00:18:34.769 --> 00:18:39.986 you know, to have such a young child, but babies grow up real quick, you 00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:43.226 know, before I knew it, Forrest was flying back and forth to see him on 00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:49.196 her own. He was coming regularly to see her. Um, it just, it just turned 00:18:49.229 --> 00:18:51.956 out to be OK. 00:18:51.989 --> 00:18:56.315 Is there anything you wanna say to kind of um summarize that story because 00:18:56.348 --> 00:19:00.426 we might break them up into two separate stories, um, you know what I mean 00:19:00.459 --> 00:19:05.347 ? So like if you reflect on the experience, um, is there anything that you 00:19:05.380 --> 00:19:10.206 would because we're putting separating them into themes, um, because some 00:19:10.239 --> 00:19:13.467 people will talk about having faith, you know, like having to have faith 00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:17.526 in their bodies and the experience or. Um, like in my case, it was like 00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:21.246 trauma, you know what I mean, was one of the major things, or, you know 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:28.946 what I mean, is there any way that you can. Sum it up a little bit. 00:19:28.979 --> 00:19:32.825 No, I don't, I don't have a summary. I know I do remember being sad that I 00:19:32.858 --> 00:19:37.906 didn't have my family nearby, but Robert's family was so devoted to 00:19:37.939 --> 00:19:44.627 Forrest that I mean really made tremendous efforts to participate in her 00:19:44.660 --> 00:19:49.426 life. I think that I gave them the greatest gift they ever had, and so, um 00:19:49.459 --> 00:19:56.137 , that definitely. Brought brought joy to all of us. But I don't, I 00:19:56.170 --> 00:20:01.186 wouldn't know a summary except for to say any time anybody who has a first 00:20:01.219 --> 00:20:04.916 child is um 00:20:04.949 --> 00:20:10.335 In strange waters, you feel like I remember one time I gave Forrest a bath 00:20:10.368 --> 00:20:14.097 her umbilical cord had just fallen off, and I could get in the bathtub 00:20:14.130 --> 00:20:19.736 with her and um so I have her on my legs. I've got my knees up and she's 00:20:19.769 --> 00:20:22.976 resting on my legs and I'm washing her face and I'm washing under her arms 00:20:23.009 --> 00:20:27.776 and I'm washing her legs. I turned her over to wash her back and wash her 00:20:27.809 --> 00:20:31.946 little bottom and her feet and then I turned her back and she was like. 00:20:31.979 --> 00:20:34.696 Almost drowned in the water because her face was in the water the whole 00:20:34.729 --> 00:20:40.347 time, you know, it's just so much responsibility. It's just so huge for 00:20:40.380 --> 00:20:47.357 this little creature who's so dependent. It's phenomenal. And somehow they 00:20:47.390 --> 00:20:49.835 survive. 00:20:49.868 --> 00:20:53.897 That was perfect. That was perfect. Excellent. I'm glad you remember that 00:20:53.930 --> 00:20:58.696 story. That was really good because there's such a big gap between my 00:20:58.729 --> 00:21:03.496 birth and the other kids that it would be a lot of explaining, moving in 00:21:03.529 --> 00:21:08.176 relationships and all that stuff, but Mike's is a really good one. I love 00:21:08.209 --> 00:21:15.726 that when you tell the story of just telling him 00:21:15.759 --> 00:21:21.085 about Mike so we could probably transition to that now. So um. 00:21:21.118 --> 00:21:26.166 Maybe Uh, you can kind of, you can approach it kind of like it's a news 00:21:26.199 --> 00:21:32.906 story, but you can, you can say, um, in the beginning part that, um, you 00:21:32.939 --> 00:21:38.127 know, that you had a young child, you and your younger your first child 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:42.206 who was 5 moved to Illinois or whatever. Do you know what I mean just to 00:21:42.239 --> 00:21:46.016 kind of give it some I say forest? Yeah, yeah, you can say forest, but I 00:21:46.049 --> 00:21:50.127 would definitely say my first child because if we separate them, we won't 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:54.555 know who forest, OK. Yeah, you did my first child for us, and then from 00:21:54.588 --> 00:22:01.065 that point on, you can use my name OK. So start, yeah, I would OK. Um, and 00:22:01.098 --> 00:22:05.357 this can be, so after prefacing the location and stuff, then you can think 00:22:05.390 --> 00:22:10.686 , talk about the conception or whatever. 00:22:10.719 --> 00:22:15.956 I moved from Chicago, um sorry, I moved from New Orleans to Chicago when 00:22:15.989 --> 00:22:21.736 my first child Forest was 5 years old and I went to work for um I was 00:22:21.769 --> 00:22:26.397 engaged to a man, um, that it didn't work out once we started actually 00:22:26.430 --> 00:22:30.996 living together and um so I moved out on my own and went to work for a man 00:22:31.029 --> 00:22:36.357 who owned apartment complexes and his name was Mike and um shortly after I 00:22:36.390 --> 00:22:43.137 went to work for Mike, he and I started dating. And Dating him was 00:22:43.170 --> 00:22:46.976 difficult because he was very, very hard on his employees, but I thought 00:22:47.009 --> 00:22:52.055 he would be very, very good to the people in his family and uh that wasn't 00:22:52.088 --> 00:22:55.217 always the case and so I ended up breaking up with him when I broke up 00:22:55.250 --> 00:23:00.627 with him, I went to work for Citibank and but I still lived in the complex 00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:06.186 that he owned and so he would see me and my first child Forest walking 00:23:06.219 --> 00:23:10.506 around the complex. And he would come and visit and things like that and 00:23:10.539 --> 00:23:18.539 we ended up getting back together and um getting married and um. Well, uh 00:23:18.739 --> 00:23:22.867 , scratch that we ended up getting back together and after two years of 00:23:22.900 --> 00:23:27.726 being back together, I thought I could not have another child, so I didn't 00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:31.746 practice birth control and everything was fine for 2 years and then I 00:23:31.779 --> 00:23:35.666 ended up getting pregnant and when I told him that I was pregnant, he said 00:23:35.699 --> 00:23:39.627 , You have made me the happiest man in the world, and we planned our 00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:45.486 wedding right after that. And so, um, the pregnancy with Mary, my second 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:52.166 child, was so easy. It is textbook what you would wish it would be. I 00:23:52.199 --> 00:23:58.736 gained 24 pounds. Um, I was all belly, all baby. The pregnancy had never a 00:23:58.769 --> 00:24:02.617 day of morning sickness, um. 00:24:02.650 --> 00:24:10.006 Just perfect, not water retention. It was just a great pregnancy. And um I 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:14.156 knew from my first pregnancy with Forrest, I did not want to go in the 00:24:14.189 --> 00:24:20.686 hospital too early. So about midnight I could feel contractions, real 00:24:20.719 --> 00:24:24.535 contractions, and I woke Mike up and said I'm having contractions but 00:24:24.568 --> 00:24:29.176 continue to sleep because I'm, it's gonna be a while and I just went in 00:24:29.209 --> 00:24:35.075 the family room and had my contractions on my own. I practiced my Lamas 00:24:35.108 --> 00:24:41.226 really well so I was really, really using the Lama at that time. And Mike 00:24:41.259 --> 00:24:46.726 woke up and um I told him it's gonna be a full day. He was gonna go. He 00:24:46.759 --> 00:24:51.206 played polo. He was gonna go ride the horses and come back. And so my 00:24:51.239 --> 00:24:54.887 sister Judy was there from New Orleans and I had a little Honda Prelude 00:24:54.920 --> 00:24:59.127 and it was a stick shift and she did not know how to how to ride it or 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.166 drive it and I was telling her, gosh, Judy, my back is just killing me. 00:25:03.199 --> 00:25:06.656 I'm in so much pain and she said, Well, call your doctor and tell him you 00:25:06.689 --> 00:25:12.347 need paragoric because paragoric will stop false labor. I called my doctor. 00:25:12.380 --> 00:25:15.825 I said, I need paraoric because paraoric will stop false labor. He said, 00:25:15.858 --> 00:25:19.906 when do you do? And I said, Oh, I'm, I'm 2 weeks past due. And so he's 00:25:19.939 --> 00:25:24.916 like Come in and he said go to the hospital. I said, no, I'm not going to 00:25:24.949 --> 00:25:28.315 the hospital. I've been there, done that. I don't want to go there too 00:25:28.348 --> 00:25:32.916 early, he said, Well, at least come in. So I went in and I signed my name 00:25:32.949 --> 00:25:37.516 . I figured they knew that I, you know, was having contractions and I just 00:25:37.549 --> 00:25:40.996 sat down and I waited and I waited and I waited. It had to be almost an 00:25:41.029 --> 00:25:44.877 hour and I finally went up to the window and I said, you know, I think I 00:25:44.910 --> 00:25:48.117 might be in labor. Am I gonna get seen soon? They said, Peggy, why didn't 00:25:48.150 --> 00:25:54.776 you tell us? So I went in, got the room, and I was dilated 7 centimeters, 00:25:54.809 --> 00:26:01.147 and but my sister Judy couldn't drive the, the stick shift car so I said 00:26:01.180 --> 00:26:05.406 Judy, I'll just and we had my first daughter for us and her son George 00:26:05.439 --> 00:26:12.815 with us and um. So I said, well, I just have to go home. And wait for Mike. 00:26:12.848 --> 00:26:16.295 So I went home. I finished making my tuna salad, and Mike came in and he 00:26:16.328 --> 00:26:19.035 had finished riding the horses that he asked, Do I have time to take a 00:26:19.068 --> 00:26:22.936 shower? I said, Well, I really would wish you didn't. So we got in the car 00:26:22.969 --> 00:26:29.897 , drove the 7 minutes to the hospital. And when I came in, it was 12 00:26:29.930 --> 00:26:36.756 o'clock. And I checked in and they made me wait for a candy striper to get 00:26:36.789 --> 00:26:41.857 go up to the. Delivery room. 00:26:41.890 --> 00:26:46.065 And I waited and waited and waited for a candy striper till my water broke 00:26:46.098 --> 00:26:52.166 there and it just gushed out and it was so embarrassing. 00:26:52.199 --> 00:26:56.456 So a woman in the emergency room said stands up and she says, I, I'm an 00:26:56.489 --> 00:26:59.055 employee here, she said, Do you want me to go get you a Kotex to put in 00:26:59.088 --> 00:27:02.496 your underwear? And I'm thinking, how would I do that? Just slide it in 00:27:02.529 --> 00:27:06.016 there, right there in the emergency room. So I started to cry. I said, no 00:27:06.049 --> 00:27:10.377 , I just wanna go up to the delivery room. And so finally the candy and 00:27:10.410 --> 00:27:14.805 Mike went ballistic and he's saying get me somebody to take her up there. 00:27:14.838 --> 00:27:19.575 And finally the candy striper came. We went up. I checked in at the 00:27:19.608 --> 00:27:24.176 emergency room at 12 o'clock. By the time I got up to the room, barely got 00:27:24.209 --> 00:27:27.426 laid in the bed and had Mary at 12:20. 00:27:27.459 --> 00:27:31.967 And so thank goodness we lived close to the hospital, but the delivery was 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.575 awesome. It was so simple. Mike asked me, you want me to rub your back or 00:27:35.608 --> 00:27:39.617 what? I said, No, just leave me to do my own thing, and I really did my 00:27:39.650 --> 00:27:45.426 Lamas properly and it was I didn't even have the episiotomy with with Mary. 00:27:45.459 --> 00:27:52.006 I, but I did tear, but um man, such an easy delivery, such a different 00:27:52.039 --> 00:27:56.315 experience from my first child. Baby stayed right there. They put it right 00:27:56.348 --> 00:28:01.226 to my chest, right to my breast, um. I remember Mike got a little dizzy. 00:28:01.259 --> 00:28:04.585 They asked if he was OK and he got, went and stood out in the hallway, uh 00:28:04.618 --> 00:28:09.347 , but it was just so, so different from my first one and also so different 00:28:09.380 --> 00:28:13.656 with just a natural 20 minute delivery. 00:28:13.689 --> 00:28:17.217 After that they took me to my room where where the baby was right there in 00:28:17.250 --> 00:28:23.815 the bassinet, which was just so much so much better for the bonding. And 00:28:23.848 --> 00:28:29.075 then they came and took Mary away and I took a shower and I got I had a 00:28:29.108 --> 00:28:32.936 beautiful pinnoa set that I had purchased. I put makeup on, did my hair, I 00:28:32.969 --> 00:28:36.335 had my pinnoa set on and Mike came in and he said, You are the most 00:28:36.368 --> 00:28:41.565 beautiful woman I've ever seen, and it just was like just so perfect. But 00:28:41.598 --> 00:28:45.285 the better part of that story is he went to Portillo's and bought me a 00:28:45.318 --> 00:28:50.217 double beef cheeseburger, an order of fries, and a large chocolate shake, 00:28:50.250 --> 00:28:55.726 which was the best meal I think I've ever had. I love that contrast like 00:28:55.759 --> 00:28:59.637 the just how coiffed you were and then you're eating this like really 00:28:59.670 --> 00:29:04.496 picture it picture it. I had my because back then you had a lot of eye 00:29:04.529 --> 00:29:09.315 shadow, remember. I, I, uh, eye shadow that went from your lower lid to 00:29:09.348 --> 00:29:13.996 your upper lid, eyeliner out, red lipstick, and I've got this big juicy 00:29:14.029 --> 00:29:20.795 double beef cheeseburger going down. I was so hungry. So I didn't realize 00:29:20.828 --> 00:29:24.795 Mike was in the room for the delivery. Was that the case with all of them 00:29:24.828 --> 00:29:28.555 ? No, he was not there for Caroline. 00:29:28.588 --> 00:29:32.506 Well, that's a really, that's a really good story. Well, then, then after 00:29:32.539 --> 00:29:37.815 I had Mary, I went home 12 hours later. Because I just felt like you 00:29:37.848 --> 00:29:41.107 couldn't get any sleep in the hospital. The bad thing about going home 12 00:29:41.140 --> 00:29:45.416 hours later was I was also cooking dinner that night and taking care of 00:29:45.449 --> 00:29:50.147 the baby, and Boris was such a big help. My first daughter was 7 years 00:29:50.180 --> 00:29:56.117 older and tremendous, tremendous help. I thought you were gonna say like 00:29:56.150 --> 00:30:00.305 just horrible. No, you're a tremendous help. I don't remember I said I 00:30:00.338 --> 00:30:03.656 don't know how I could have done it without you because Mike was Mike was 00:30:03.689 --> 00:30:08.266 15 years older than me and he was not one he never changed a diaper. He 00:30:08.299 --> 00:30:12.065 never gave a child a bath, never read a child a story. He was not an 00:30:12.098 --> 00:30:15.785 involved father because when he had his kids, it was kind of that a 00:30:15.818 --> 00:30:20.476 different generation of. Yeah, he was an old man. He did. He just didn't, 00:30:20.509 --> 00:30:22.936 it was a different generation. You just didn't do that. You patted him on 00:30:22.969 --> 00:30:26.085 the head as they walked by. 00:30:26.118 --> 00:30:33.906 And then with my 3rd child, Caroline. Um, she was a surprise and um I was 00:30:33.939 --> 00:30:37.785 Mike and I had um gotten annulments from the Catholic Church for our prior 00:30:37.818 --> 00:30:44.065 marriages and so we had scheduled a wedding to be married through the 00:30:44.098 --> 00:30:49.387 church and sure enough I was 3 months pregnant with Caroline just like I 00:30:49.420 --> 00:30:53.627 was 3 months pregnant with Mary when we got married and but still never 00:30:53.660 --> 00:31:01.446 showing with Caroline I gained 22, 24 pounds. Um, very again, very easy 00:31:01.479 --> 00:31:08.035 pregnancy, um. We should mention how big they were too. It's true, because 00:31:08.068 --> 00:31:13.107 it makes the 22 pound weight gain even stranger and you know. Is there a 00:31:13.140 --> 00:31:15.717 specific order you want me to mention that in? No, I mean you can you can 00:31:15.750 --> 00:31:20.387 say both children were OK. 00:31:20.420 --> 00:31:25.295 Um, I lost my train of thought. Well, you just mentioned that you weren't 00:31:25.328 --> 00:31:29.026 showing and that you had you had only gained 22 pounds, which is why I 00:31:29.059 --> 00:31:32.565 thought, you know, which is unusual considering how big they were. You 00:31:32.598 --> 00:31:38.147 were at the wedding. Uh, so after the wedding. And we just proceeded with 00:31:38.180 --> 00:31:44.305 life as normal again, very easy pregnancy, no morning sickness. Um, it was 00:31:44.338 --> 00:31:48.986 like I was made to have babies. If I could have, I would have had been a 00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:54.996 surrogate mother because it was so easy for me. And Caroline was born 00:31:55.029 --> 00:32:02.035 November 12th, so prior to that I was trying to get uh fruit cake made for 00:32:02.068 --> 00:32:05.637 the staff. We Mike had employed 60 people and I was making, you know, 00:32:05.670 --> 00:32:09.756 these 1 pound fruit cakes from this woman, this little old lady who really 00:32:09.789 --> 00:32:13.397 had a very famous fruit cake recipe. So we went to the restaurant that 00:32:13.430 --> 00:32:21.430 Mike owned, and he stayed in Barrington Hills, and this was in in um. 00:32:22.368 --> 00:32:29.325 It by the airport. I can't think of the name of that place. Shiller Park 00:32:29.358 --> 00:32:35.335 And so I, but I was very big and pregnant. My children, Caroline, Mary and 00:32:35.368 --> 00:32:39.315 John weighed 9.5 pounds each. 00:32:39.348 --> 00:32:43.176 So I was on my feet all night long trying to make these cheesecakes or 00:32:43.209 --> 00:32:48.426 these carrot cakes, uh, trying to make the fruit cakes. And stayed till 00:32:48.459 --> 00:32:53.926 almost midnight and when I left there was a blizzard and I had a BMW L7 00:32:53.959 --> 00:32:58.867 and just trying to drive home, the car was too much had too much engine 00:32:58.900 --> 00:33:04.377 for that kind of weather and I was going 7 miles an hour on the highway 00:33:04.410 --> 00:33:08.357 fish tailing the whole way home. 00:33:08.390 --> 00:33:15.026 I remember being so exhausted, the back pain was so terrible and um then 00:33:15.059 --> 00:33:19.976 shortly after that. A couple of girlfriends came over to help me wrap the 00:33:20.009 --> 00:33:24.456 fruit cake for the staff, and I remember thinking, oh my God, my back is 00:33:24.489 --> 00:33:28.825 killing me and I would, this might be gross, but you can edit this out but 00:33:28.858 --> 00:33:34.847 I kept having to go #2 and it was just like constant, constant. My back 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:41.706 was hurting so badly and finally I and Mike was out of town. He was in 00:33:41.739 --> 00:33:48.926 Boca Raton, Florida renting us a house for the winter season. And um, Lois 00:33:48.959 --> 00:33:52.045 Lois was there and. 00:33:52.078 --> 00:33:55.506 What was her name? 00:33:55.539 --> 00:33:59.867 Yeah, she was a sweetheart too. I know you're Eloise. No, no, Eloise was 00:33:59.900 --> 00:34:06.815 not a sweetheart. Um, Fran, Lois and Fran were there to help me wrap the 00:34:06.848 --> 00:34:11.695 fruit cake, and finally Lois said Peg, let's just take you to the hospital. 00:34:11.728 --> 00:34:18.836 And so she took me and um. Again, just went in, got sent up to the room. 00:34:18.869 --> 00:34:22.356 They tried to put a fetal monitor on me that it would not take, so they 00:34:22.389 --> 00:34:29.155 wanted to put one vaginally, and I said no, um, and so the doctor, um, did 00:34:29.188 --> 00:34:32.436 not insist upon it. I had an awesome doctor for all of these children. I 00:34:32.469 --> 00:34:36.517 never had an IV, never even had to have an IV. He let me just always do it 00:34:36.550 --> 00:34:43.327 on my own. He was the best doctor ever and um. Had Caroline that night and 00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:49.646 Mike rushed home after, you know, to see after the delivery and um stayed 00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:53.686 in the hospital 12 hours that night or the next day and went went home 00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:56.805 again cooking dinner. 00:34:56.838 --> 00:34:59.834 He must have just thought you were like superwoman. Mike thought I should 00:34:59.867 --> 00:35:02.936 have a baby a year. 00:35:02.969 --> 00:35:08.307 No, he really did. He because he played polo and he had a herd of 35 00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:12.546 ponies, he kept thinking what he should do is what they do with the horses. 00:35:12.579 --> 00:35:18.135 After 9 days of 9 days after horse delivers, they breed them back. It's 00:35:18.168 --> 00:35:22.537 like, no, that's not for me. How is that even a term? I know, because they 00:35:22.570 --> 00:35:25.425 breed them back. 00:35:25.458 --> 00:35:31.146 Wow. So why would you take on these crazy endeavors so far along pregnant 00:35:31.179 --> 00:35:33.905 and all that? You just didn't feel you were just comfortable being 00:35:33.938 --> 00:35:38.166 pregnant to the point where Caroline came 2 weeks early. 00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:41.307 And I was not comfortable being pregnant, but I, you know, it's, it's a 00:35:41.340 --> 00:35:45.977 sense of responsibility that you have. You want to be superwoman. 00:35:46.010 --> 00:35:52.997 So With this uh um 9 year old, a 2 year old, a new baby. Why was I making 00:35:53.030 --> 00:35:57.405 fruit cakes? I don't have any idea. 00:35:57.438 --> 00:36:02.856 Yeah, it's amazing. Or when a staff could have done that too. Hey, look, 00:36:02.889 --> 00:36:07.365 you can go to Harrod's and buy fruitcake. You don't need to make it. I 00:36:07.398 --> 00:36:09.606 will tell you though, it was the best fruit cake I've ever had, and I 00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:12.247 don't like fruitcake. 00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:18.546 Um, OK, so where are we at? Caroline just got born. Caroline was born and 00:36:18.579 --> 00:36:23.186 it was again the awesome delivery, awesome delivery room, used all my 00:36:23.219 --> 00:36:26.526 lamas, um. 00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:30.206 Method, even though she was 2 weeks early, she was 9.5 pounds. The doctor 00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:32.646 said thank goodness she was born early because she would have been 11 00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:35.017 pounds. 00:36:35.050 --> 00:36:39.135 Was it the same with Mary where there's a little bassinet and it was 00:36:39.168 --> 00:36:43.456 exactly the same. They they put the baby on your chest. You could bond 00:36:43.489 --> 00:36:48.925 with the child right away. Mike wasn't there, but Lois Lois was there and 00:36:48.958 --> 00:36:53.057 she was so close to my children. They called her granny. And she wanted to 00:36:53.090 --> 00:36:56.896 help me. She wanted, I felt bad about this because she wanted to rub my 00:36:56.929 --> 00:37:01.615 feet or talk to me through the contractions which don't talk to a woman 00:37:01.648 --> 00:37:04.736 when she's having a contraction, especially if she's practicing Lama. It 00:37:04.769 --> 00:37:12.046 takes effort to try to not tense up and. To be relaxed, um, but I felt 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:15.365 really bad because I said, Lois, please just leave me alone. I can do this 00:37:15.398 --> 00:37:23.398 on my own. You had tremendous um self-control, or can you elaborate on 00:37:24.369 --> 00:37:26.936 that? Was that a surprise to you? Did you find that you were like that in 00:37:26.969 --> 00:37:31.736 life? 00:37:31.769 --> 00:37:36.666 I don't know if I'd call it self-control. I, if there's a job to be done, 00:37:36.699 --> 00:37:41.736 you just have to do it. And if you want to do a job, the easiest way. 00:37:41.769 --> 00:37:45.405 Follow the instructions of people who've done it before and studied it and 00:37:45.438 --> 00:37:49.816 and can walk you through. I was very lucky too. I didn't have any 00:37:49.849 --> 00:37:55.416 complications. There was no complications with the babies. Mary had the 00:37:55.449 --> 00:37:59.896 umbilical cord wrapped around her neck. I had the most phenomenal doctor 00:37:59.929 --> 00:38:04.655 ever. That was all taken care of, no problem. 00:38:04.688 --> 00:38:11.175 No child was breech. No child was. I had a, I think Caroline was upside 00:38:11.208 --> 00:38:15.336 down. Her face was up instead of down, but he just turned it this, this, I 00:38:15.369 --> 00:38:19.655 had the same doctor deliver my last three children, and he was, he really 00:38:19.688 --> 00:38:23.977 is in heaven. I just know it. He was the world's greatest doctor. It's 00:38:24.010 --> 00:38:26.635 funny because you'll say like everything was fine and then it's like, oh, 00:38:26.668 --> 00:38:30.586 well, Mary had this umbilical cord. No, Caroline was upside down. But 00:38:30.619 --> 00:38:36.456 those are, those really are a lot of the process of childbirth and that a 00:38:36.489 --> 00:38:39.095 lot of people want to have their children at home, but I would, I would 00:38:39.128 --> 00:38:42.405 not do that just for those specific reasons, although there are some very 00:38:42.438 --> 00:38:47.247 , very skilled midwives who know what to do in those cases, but I felt 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:50.646 more comfortable being in a hospital. 00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:54.836 You also had a doctor that if you said, I don't want this intervention, he 00:38:54.869 --> 00:39:00.477 didn't insist upon it. I had a doctor who let me do it myself. He was 00:39:00.510 --> 00:39:05.945 awesome. It seems like a lot of times um women don't really trust their 00:39:05.978 --> 00:39:10.086 doctors, and that's a big part of the problem, but you, did you have find 00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:13.945 that you really felt like you could trust him? Everybody could trust this 00:39:13.978 --> 00:39:16.037 doctor. 00:39:16.070 --> 00:39:20.267 Everybody, when this doctor died, there were thousands of people who came 00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:27.767 to his funeral. And every one of them had a birthing delivery GYN story. 00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:34.747 That's amazing. OK, so Mike, when is the first time Mike sees Caroline? 00:39:34.780 --> 00:39:39.287 He saw her the next day in the hospital because again I only stayed I 00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:43.727 think with Caroline I stayed 10 hours. She was born at night. I went home 00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.077 the next morning. 00:39:47.110 --> 00:39:51.717 Were you, um, you know, not many women have talked about this, but I 00:39:51.750 --> 00:39:56.247 remember being, not shocked, but well kind of shocked about all the blood 00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:01.736 afterwards at home, you know, it's like bleeding. It felt like Weeks. I 00:40:01.769 --> 00:40:05.615 don't really remember how long it was. Was that stuff that you that people 00:40:05.648 --> 00:40:10.227 talked about or were you just prepared after having your first birth and 00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:15.537 how the recovery part of it? The recovery after having a child um is hard 00:40:15.570 --> 00:40:19.537 because every one of them I I either tore or I had an episiotomy and that 00:40:19.570 --> 00:40:24.577 stitching is, is, it's hard. It's hard to sit down and to recover from, 00:40:24.610 --> 00:40:32.610 and the hemorrhoids were just so bad. And um the bleeding is. 00:40:32.840 --> 00:40:36.526 Quite a lot more than you would expect, and it goes on for a lot longer 00:40:36.559 --> 00:40:41.526 than you would think. I do recall 6 weeks and I remember I had a 2 year 00:40:41.559 --> 00:40:46.135 old at home and I had a new baby and I would go to the bathroom and my 2 00:40:46.168 --> 00:40:50.956 year old would say, Mom, do you need any cotton? Because she knew I had to 00:40:50.989 --> 00:40:57.566 have another a Kotex to. Protect from the blood. 00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:03.206 It's crazy. It's, it's crazy the amount of, you know, it's like you're, 00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:06.327 you of course have all those endorphins and you know you're breastfeeding 00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:09.845 , so there's all this excitement over the newborn, but at the same time 00:41:09.878 --> 00:41:15.526 you're like, you know, it's overwhelming. It is, it's overwhelming and I 00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:19.166 remember I would just stay in the hospital such a short time and I'd come 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:25.086 home and I would cook dinner and feed babies and I just remember one time 00:41:25.119 --> 00:41:28.467 when Mary was little. 00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:33.066 Probably 4 months old. All I wanted to do was sit down and have a quiet 00:41:33.099 --> 00:41:36.706 meal, just, and I can eat fast. I just wanted to sit down and finish my 00:41:36.739 --> 00:41:41.066 meal and the babies always started at right at mealtime. And this is after 00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:46.126 I've cooked a meal, set the table. Um, just wanted to sit down and have a 00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:49.126 meal, so I put her in my bedroom, and she was little, she should not have 00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:51.925 really been moving around that much. I don't really think she was even 4 00:41:51.958 --> 00:41:57.376 months old. And when I came back after 15, maybe 7 minutes. She was 00:41:57.409 --> 00:42:02.557 nowhere to be found. I was panicking. Where is she? And I, and she cried 00:42:02.590 --> 00:42:08.046 herself so hard she'd crawled herself under the bed and fallen asleep. And 00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:14.905 I was in a panic like. Where was she? Like someone who nabbed her or or 00:42:14.938 --> 00:42:20.287 got it taken her away. I didn't deserve her. I don't know. 00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:23.126 It's so funny because it always comes back to that because it's always, 00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:25.885 you know, you feel like it's punishment you've taken this moment to 00:42:25.918 --> 00:42:30.845 yourself and. Oh yeah, I remember so many years, no showers without 00:42:30.878 --> 00:42:34.606 children in the bathroom. My all of my last 3 children were potty trained 00:42:34.639 --> 00:42:38.606 at 18 months because they went to the bathroom with me every single time. 00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:43.227 They knew exactly what to do. I never had a bowel movement without a 00:42:43.260 --> 00:42:46.046 child in the bathroom. 00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:51.436 Did you resent Mike's kind of? Whatever that way of parenting was the 00:42:51.469 --> 00:42:56.497 aloofness or his non-engagement with that process, I mean you must have 00:42:56.530 --> 00:43:00.385 had friends that had younger husbands were they different? You, you know, 00:43:00.418 --> 00:43:06.296 I didn't have much socialization with people that had young children 00:43:06.329 --> 00:43:11.905 because Mike was 15 years older than me and um he was very powerful and 00:43:11.938 --> 00:43:19.938 ran a a a big business and his work was really very consuming. Um, and I 00:43:20.128 --> 00:43:25.236 had a father who had 6 children, and he just was never really one of those 00:43:25.269 --> 00:43:29.675 dads that you see today either, so I was used to that. I was used to a 00:43:29.708 --> 00:43:33.675 father who didn't change diapers, who didn't feed the kids who didn't read 00:43:33.708 --> 00:43:39.506 them bedtime stories, and in my opinion. It's very, very sad for that 00:43:39.539 --> 00:43:43.425 father because he's missed out on some of the biggest joys of having 00:43:43.458 --> 00:43:49.206 children. And they don't know what they're missing. 00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:52.615 Yeah, yeah, you know, I mean, you know that when we talked to BK, you just 00:43:52.648 --> 00:43:59.467 like. I know I just They just didn't do it. Worked all the time, you know. 00:43:59.500 --> 00:44:05.945 Um, so, OK, and then, 9 months later or when did you get pregnant again? 00:44:05.978 --> 00:44:09.106 Can you go from, because you, it sounds like you're, you know, you have a 00:44:09.139 --> 00:44:15.316 kid and each hip, you're doing all this stuff and. So, so John, see 00:44:15.349 --> 00:44:23.349 Caroline was November 12th. 86, and John was August 30th, 88. So November 00:44:24.750 --> 00:44:28.456 , so a year and. 00:44:28.489 --> 00:44:35.046 7 months A year and 7 months later I was pregnant with my 4th child who 00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:40.546 was planned because my husband Mike wanted to have a little boy so bad 00:44:40.579 --> 00:44:43.385 even though he'd had two boys from a previous marriage, he wanted to have 00:44:43.418 --> 00:44:49.186 a boy and I said, Mike, I'm not going to have a baby. One after the other 00:44:49.219 --> 00:44:52.307 until you get a boy. I'm not sure I would have a boy. My father had 6 00:44:52.340 --> 00:44:56.186 daughters. So many of my sisters had girls. I only had 1 sister that had 00:44:56.219 --> 00:45:02.876 boys at that time. And so I said that, uh, I, I will ask my OBGYN what I 00:45:02.909 --> 00:45:08.195 can do. When I went to see him, he said I could go to a clinic that did a 00:45:08.228 --> 00:45:12.767 lot of fertility work, but that they could do sex selection. And so I went 00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:17.247 to the clinic, talked to the doctor, and he's indeed said yes that was an 00:45:17.280 --> 00:45:23.186 option for me. So Mike and I went to the clinic. Mike would go into his 00:45:23.219 --> 00:45:30.396 into the room and make give his specimen and um they tested it and it was 00:45:30.429 --> 00:45:35.287 had 50 million sperm so there was no low sperm count, but it was higher on 00:45:35.320 --> 00:45:39.356 the female. And so what they did was they washed the sperm they spun it 00:45:39.389 --> 00:45:43.256 and washed it and separated male from female. And so the day that we were 00:45:43.289 --> 00:45:49.307 going in, of course, Mike running his business, always so busy. We went in 00:45:49.340 --> 00:45:53.287 and um Mike gave a sample. 00:45:53.320 --> 00:45:59.666 They put me in the room. Um, injected. The sample and instead of Mike 00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:02.776 sitting there talking to me, giving me a kiss on the cheek, holding my 00:46:02.809 --> 00:46:06.945 hand, he was out in the hallway talking on the phone, and I do remember 00:46:06.978 --> 00:46:10.577 laying there because they put your hips higher than your head, and I do 00:46:10.610 --> 00:46:15.776 remember the tears rolling down my eyes into my ears just feeling so alone 00:46:15.809 --> 00:46:21.486 at that moment of conception. And um 00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:25.425 But you know you just sort of bucked it up then, you know, you just, you 00:46:25.458 --> 00:46:28.385 knew that was a battle you weren't gonna win. You're, you're not going to 00:46:28.418 --> 00:46:33.916 change the core of who someone is. So then uh of course you wait and wait 00:46:33.949 --> 00:46:36.916 and wait and continue with the pregnancy and until it comes time to find 00:46:36.949 --> 00:46:41.646 out if it's a boy or a girl and Mike was again in Florida. 00:46:41.679 --> 00:46:47.586 And I found out we were all in Florida actually and I found out that I 00:46:47.619 --> 00:46:51.666 called the doctor and he said yes, it is a boy and I was so excited for 00:46:51.699 --> 00:46:56.787 Mike really and he was playing a polo match then and I thought, you know 00:46:56.820 --> 00:47:01.385 what I might do? I might get an airplane and have it fly over the polo 00:47:01.418 --> 00:47:06.615 field and say Mike, it's a boy. But I thought, oh, what a silly expense, 00:47:06.648 --> 00:47:11.727 you know, I, I can tell him myself. So after the game, we went out and I 00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:18.217 told him, you know, Mike, I, I know you really wanted a boy. I found out 00:47:18.250 --> 00:47:21.626 the sex of the baby. Are you gonna be OK if it's a girl or if it's a boy? 00:47:21.659 --> 00:47:26.057 And he was really like, oh gosh, it's another girl. I said it's a boy, and 00:47:26.090 --> 00:47:30.365 he was so excited. And then I told him that I had planned on maybe doing 00:47:30.398 --> 00:47:33.336 the airplane thing and he said, I wish you'd have done that would have 00:47:33.369 --> 00:47:39.905 been awesome, but who knows, you know. Um, so did you just like get 00:47:39.938 --> 00:47:44.026 pregnant right away after the sex insemination? I was pregnant right away. 00:47:44.059 --> 00:47:47.905 Mike and I really almost never even had to talk about having a baby, or 00:47:47.938 --> 00:47:50.747 we could talk about it, never had to have the act. I would just talk about 00:47:50.780 --> 00:47:53.615 it and be pregnant. 00:47:53.648 --> 00:47:58.095 Um, why did you not think you could get pregnant after your first? I was 00:47:58.128 --> 00:48:01.456 actually told that because of the DNC there was scarring, but then you had 00:48:01.489 --> 00:48:08.166 a baby. But I had another, um, another, um. 00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:16.199 Miscarriage. That's interesting. So with, with a different man? Oh, OK. Um 00:48:16.938 --> 00:48:21.537 , was that a relief? This is off the record, but just out of my own. It 00:48:21.570 --> 00:48:24.736 was so fast. It was like I didn't even know I was pregnant, and then I 00:48:24.769 --> 00:48:28.936 lost it. You know, so it was like no time to get worried or no time. I 00:48:28.969 --> 00:48:33.175 don't think I even told him. Yeah, but then with that, then it impacted 00:48:33.208 --> 00:48:36.695 the rest of your life. So you thought. So I thought, yeah, but you know I 00:48:36.728 --> 00:48:42.477 would have been happy with one baby. I'd be happy with one grandchild. 00:48:42.510 --> 00:48:47.816 It's too bad you couldn't have babies for the rest of us, I know. 00:48:47.849 --> 00:48:52.896 So then after that with that pregnancy, everything I remember being so 00:48:52.929 --> 00:48:57.776 boggled with just the responsibility of three children and two so close 00:48:57.809 --> 00:49:02.296 together. I remember being in Florida and Mary was fussing and I had 00:49:02.329 --> 00:49:05.497 Caroline in my arms and I'm trying to make dinner reservations because we 00:49:05.530 --> 00:49:11.126 had such a social life which sounds like my aunt went. But I gave Caroline 00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:14.635 the cap to a Perrier bottle and she's like putting it in her mouth and 00:49:14.668 --> 00:49:19.155 it's like going down her throat, you know, it's like it just taking care 00:49:19.188 --> 00:49:23.155 of so much responsibility. Thank goodness nothing happened, but all I'm 00:49:23.188 --> 00:49:27.635 saying is it's so overwhelming. 00:49:27.668 --> 00:49:34.106 But that pregnancy went well again gained about 22, 24 pounds um when it 00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:40.467 came time for delivery, I went in, um, same doctor and you know didn't 00:49:40.500 --> 00:49:46.635 have to have an IV. Um, Mike was there. Uh, the doctor said, Peg, do you 00:49:46.668 --> 00:49:50.916 mind if I have some interns come in because I'd like them to see what a 00:49:50.949 --> 00:49:55.456 natural childbirth is like? And I said, no, that's OK. I expected one or 00:49:55.489 --> 00:49:59.655 two interns to come in. There were literally doctors lining the walls of 00:49:59.688 --> 00:50:07.057 the delivery room. And the baby just came out. Again pieceiotomy stitching 00:50:07.090 --> 00:50:13.206 up and on my chest bonding, absolutely adorable, so glad I had a little 00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:19.577 boy. The relationship is just so special and um Mike was happy and all was 00:50:19.610 --> 00:50:24.345 right with the world. Can you, um, can mention because I think it's quite 00:50:24.378 --> 00:50:28.385 funny how you had agreed to the third child, but then you wanted to have 00:50:28.418 --> 00:50:32.037 help for the rest of your life. I had agreed to having the 3rd child, the 00:50:32.070 --> 00:50:38.327 boy. I had Mike sign a piece of paper that said. I could have live-in care 00:50:38.360 --> 00:50:42.307 for the children as long as I wanted if they lived at home until they were 00:50:42.340 --> 00:50:46.537 30, if I wanted to live in care, I could have live-in care and so and that 00:50:46.570 --> 00:50:50.695 really was a deciding factor for me because I knew I was, I was in over my 00:50:50.728 --> 00:50:58.646 head and um unfortunately 2 years later. Um, on Mother's Day, Mike beat me 00:50:58.679 --> 00:51:03.526 up, broke my nose, and I got divorced and I had no live-in care. So it was 00:51:03.559 --> 00:51:09.865 in, I was in an overwhelming situation. You were truly a single parent. I 00:51:09.898 --> 00:51:17.467 was truly a single parent, and there remained that way until. John was 00:51:17.500 --> 00:51:19.586 15 00:51:19.619 --> 00:51:24.796 Caroline was 17, Mary was 19. 00:51:24.829 --> 00:51:30.327 And you were 26? How old are you? 00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:35.095 I think I was in I was in graduate school. I graduated grad school and 00:51:35.128 --> 00:51:39.396 started teaching college at 23, so I was 21. 00:51:39.429 --> 00:51:44.497 I think when I met Dick, John, John was 11, but we married at 13. When 00:51:44.530 --> 00:51:52.530 John was 13. So 11. 1315, and you would have been. 24, 23, 24, yeah. 00:51:55.780 --> 00:52:00.747 Gosh, yeah, I'm always wrong with that. I always think it's me too. Um, 00:52:00.780 --> 00:52:04.787 well, can you kind of reflect on that experience? I mean, do you, I mean 00:52:04.820 --> 00:52:09.166 it's hard to say on record. You regretted having the kids or anything. Oh 00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:14.606 no, I never did regret having the kids, um, but I will say it was hard. It 00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:22.639 was hard because I had myself and 3 children. Mike fortunately was wealthy 00:52:23.418 --> 00:52:27.579 enough that I didn't have to work. I can't imagine.