WEBVTT 00:00:00.259 --> 00:00:07.096 This is Forres Solis interviewing Eden Croft on August 17th at 10:30. 00:00:07.129 --> 00:00:12.626 OK, we're ready. Do you want to hold this? Sure, OK. And you can hold it 00:00:12.659 --> 00:00:16.116 in a way that's comfortable to you. Yeah. 00:00:16.149 --> 00:00:21.706 Oh, you don't know in terms of sound that way. OK. OK. All right. Is it OK 00:00:21.739 --> 00:00:24.425 to put my finger? I'm not putting my finger on something. I think you're 00:00:24.458 --> 00:00:30.587 OK. OK. Yeah. Um, so can you take us back to as far back as the conception 00:00:30.620 --> 00:00:34.987 of possible? Was it planned or oh, and you're welcome to talk about both 00:00:35.020 --> 00:00:38.866 births. So if you want to start chronologically, but it's up to you if you 00:00:38.899 --> 00:00:46.135 just want to talk about. OK, I'll do that. So basically, um, about 4.5 00:00:46.168 --> 00:00:50.737 years ago, really maybe about 5.5 years ago, my husband and I had decided 00:00:50.770 --> 00:00:55.335 that we were ready to have a child, but we were going to start in a year. 00:00:55.368 --> 00:01:01.786 But um we ended up conceiving. A year earlier than we had planned. I had 00:01:01.819 --> 00:01:05.706 been doing a lot of ceremony, some Native American ceremony, and I was 00:01:05.739 --> 00:01:10.257 living in a spiritual center and I'd done a lot of work to heal my womb 00:01:10.290 --> 00:01:14.906 from childhood trauma and so forth. So it just seemed like the time was 00:01:14.939 --> 00:01:21.305 ready and um for for that seed to be planted and to grow and so it 00:01:21.338 --> 00:01:27.495 happened. And uh it was very exciting. We're very excited about it. At the 00:01:27.528 --> 00:01:32.876 time I was living. Really clean 00:01:32.909 --> 00:01:37.147 Am I answering too much? OK. 00:01:37.180 --> 00:01:42.135 So at the time I was living really clean, um, living in a small mountain 00:01:42.168 --> 00:01:50.168 town 3 hours south of Phoenix in Arizona called Patagonia, population 900 00:01:51.219 --> 00:01:59.016 and um really clean air. Um, I was eating like A predominantly raw food 00:01:59.049 --> 00:02:03.697 diet. It was vegan and organic and a lot of things like fresh off the land 00:02:03.730 --> 00:02:08.975 , and I was probably in the best health of my life. I even though I was 36 00:02:09.008 --> 00:02:14.737 and considered advanced maternal age, um, I, I really was quite healthy 00:02:14.770 --> 00:02:19.495 and I got a good go ahead from my midwife and my doctor to go ahead and 00:02:19.528 --> 00:02:23.775 have a home birth and so. That's what we planned to do. At first I thought 00:02:23.808 --> 00:02:28.616 I was going to just have a hospital birth because I had no knowledge of 00:02:28.649 --> 00:02:33.177 what the hospital culture is like um in this country, in my country, you 00:02:33.210 --> 00:02:37.616 can just go and have a natural birth at hospital, but apparently here you 00:02:37.649 --> 00:02:43.136 can do that too it's just possibly a little more challenging. Can you tell 00:02:43.169 --> 00:02:46.255 us some more about your background? because that sounds really fascinating 00:02:46.288 --> 00:02:50.217 and like when you came to the states and where your husband's from or 00:02:50.250 --> 00:02:53.036 where you met him. 00:02:53.069 --> 00:02:59.916 I'm actually, uh, I was born in Zimbabwe and I lived there for the most 00:02:59.949 --> 00:03:05.077 part with the exception of 3 years when my parents were going to uh 00:03:05.110 --> 00:03:10.237 graduate school in the States. I lived there until I was about 19 and then 00:03:10.270 --> 00:03:14.717 I came to the States to study, and I thought I'd just stay for 4 or 8 00:03:14.750 --> 00:03:20.096 years and study work a bit and go home, but I ended up staying and getting 00:03:20.129 --> 00:03:26.096 married and Uh, having children here. My husband, um, is an American 00:03:26.129 --> 00:03:32.005 person and he, um. He's like one year younger than me, so we're about the 00:03:32.038 --> 00:03:36.646 same age. He's originally from the Pacific Northwest, but he traveled a 00:03:36.679 --> 00:03:40.797 lot when he was young because his parents were missionaries. 00:03:40.830 --> 00:03:48.566 And um yeah, we, we met online on veggieDate.org 00:03:48.599 --> 00:03:51.725 because at the time I was vegetarian, I was like, you know what, it might 00:03:51.758 --> 00:03:55.327 be interesting to date another vegetarian guy cause I dated so many guys 00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:00.245 who were, you know, eating meat and I don't have any sort of thoughts 00:04:00.278 --> 00:04:06.427 about how people eat necessarily. Um, but you know I, I found that 00:04:06.460 --> 00:04:10.467 sometimes it was a conflict, you know, in the relationship, especially if 00:04:10.500 --> 00:04:13.186 they were trying to get me to eat meat. It's like, well, I'm not trying to 00:04:13.219 --> 00:04:16.627 get you to become vegetarian. Why are you trying to get me to eat meat, 00:04:16.660 --> 00:04:20.387 you know. And so I was like, oh, I'm done with this. Let me just at least 00:04:20.420 --> 00:04:26.627 try this. And so I met him there. Yeah, and we, we were friends for a long 00:04:26.660 --> 00:04:34.660 time and then we got together and got married. Great, um, OK, so. OK, so, 00:04:36.678 --> 00:04:44.127 um, you're excited about the conception, and you have made some plans for 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:48.245 the birth. So can you maybe talk about that? Did you, um, go online and 00:04:48.278 --> 00:04:54.757 find a midwife, or how, how did you think about it? Well, when it came to 00:04:54.790 --> 00:04:58.067 the way we came to a home birth is we watched, like many people, the 00:04:58.100 --> 00:05:01.075 business of being born on Netflix because as soon as you become pregnant, 00:05:01.108 --> 00:05:05.426 you become infected with this desire to research and know everything. Well 00:05:05.459 --> 00:05:10.265 , at least I did, I don't know. I am assuming though that the majority of 00:05:10.298 --> 00:05:15.346 women also have the same experience. Um, so I went to Netflix and I 00:05:15.379 --> 00:05:18.866 started looking at things and I came across the business of being born. 00:05:18.899 --> 00:05:23.596 And uh my husband actually watched it with me, um, so it was easy. We both 00:05:23.629 --> 00:05:27.637 were like right away, OK, I guess we're having a home birth then, you know. 00:05:27.670 --> 00:05:31.075 And we live in a small town and there were no midwives in that town, but 00:05:31.108 --> 00:05:37.426 we were an hour away from Tucson, which is a bigger city, uh, not huge, 00:05:37.459 --> 00:05:43.937 but bigger than population 900. And we researched all the midwives in that 00:05:43.970 --> 00:05:49.976 area and um I think I interviewed maybe 6. It may even have been 9, I 00:05:50.009 --> 00:05:53.257 don't know. And it was the very last one that we interviewed that I liked 00:05:53.290 --> 00:05:58.705 , which is I can't tell. I think I can't tell he's be upset about the 00:05:58.738 --> 00:06:01.866 chicken, but he's like staring at the chicken and she's like walking back 00:06:01.899 --> 00:06:06.736 and forth. It's chicken. click, click click, click, look. She's trying to 00:06:06.769 --> 00:06:10.606 get into the house. Click, click, click, click, look. Does she come in 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:14.656 sometimes? All the time she sleeps in that cat carrier. Oh my God, that is 00:06:14.689 --> 00:06:18.895 so cute. She wants to be pet every evening like yeah, she's a real pet. Oh 00:06:18.928 --> 00:06:24.796 my God, but I'm not sure. My 4 year old would go wild. 00:06:24.829 --> 00:06:29.486 Really looking now. OK, so are you comfortable? Yeah, because I can hold 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:32.697 it too. No, it's fine. 00:06:32.730 --> 00:06:40.730 Um, so I guess going going back to the question of, oh yeah, OK. 00:06:45.689 --> 00:06:48.040 OK. The bear. Look at all these. You can move as much as I can follow you around. OK. 00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:51.387 Maybe there's the hum of the refrigerator there, so maybe you might have, 00:06:51.420 --> 00:06:56.346 I don't know if you'd be able to edit that out. It's very kind. 00:06:56.379 --> 00:07:03.336 Well, um, So, you wanna look in the mirror? Look in the mirror. Look, 00:07:03.369 --> 00:07:07.586 she's got crystals. See crystals? 00:07:07.619 --> 00:07:13.377 I said baby Caleb. 00:07:13.410 --> 00:07:16.086 There he is. Look at my sons. Oh my gosh, it's so much neater than my 00:07:16.119 --> 00:07:22.317 daughter's room. So much what? Neater than my daughter's room. It's 00:07:22.350 --> 00:07:25.836 amazing because I thought we had the dirtiest bed. I don't know where the 00:07:25.869 --> 00:07:30.575 fan is. This room might not be good because of the ceiling fan. 00:07:30.608 --> 00:07:37.086 OK, so I'm sorry to keep interrupting. Oh, it's OK, um, so basically. 00:07:37.119 --> 00:07:42.645 We, we, we went to a birth to the birth center in Tucson. We got a list of 00:07:42.678 --> 00:07:48.736 midwives while we were there, um, because we opted out of the birth center 00:07:48.769 --> 00:07:55.926 because it felt like they were too quick to to transfer you. And even 00:07:55.959 --> 00:08:01.825 though we have a history of Easy births in my family. I just didn't know 00:08:01.858 --> 00:08:04.666 what was going to happen because it's birth and you don't know what is 00:08:04.699 --> 00:08:09.817 going to happen and you have to surrender and have humility and um you 00:08:09.850 --> 00:08:15.546 know I'm totally grateful for hospitals and why they exist and so forth, 00:08:15.579 --> 00:08:21.305 but um it was not my first choice for birthing for me and I didn't want to 00:08:21.338 --> 00:08:26.387 be pushed into that situation. And thank goodness we we didn't choose the 00:08:26.420 --> 00:08:30.226 birth center because I ended up having a really long labor, and I'm sure 00:08:30.259 --> 00:08:36.086 they would have sent me there even though everything was OK. So anyway, so 00:08:36.119 --> 00:08:41.304 that's how we chose, we chose our midwife. How was pregnancy for? 00:08:41.337 --> 00:08:49.337 Pregnancy with my first child. 00:08:52.649 --> 00:08:55.407 It's Chicken. 00:08:55.440 --> 00:09:02.186 Pregnancy with my first child was a dream. It really was, um, I had high 00:09:02.219 --> 00:09:07.557 energy, I had a great attitude. I had great support. I was living in 00:09:07.590 --> 00:09:11.557 community. I was eating well, and a lot of fresh air, a lot of exercise, 00:09:11.590 --> 00:09:19.590 yoga. Um, group meditations, like 4 or 5 times a week. Um, it was amazing. 00:09:19.889 --> 00:09:24.456 You know, my second pregnancy was really difficult. Um, I had moved to 00:09:24.489 --> 00:09:31.667 Phoenix. I was more socially isolated, um. I had a toddler, even though 00:09:31.700 --> 00:09:36.787 Jubilee was easy in her first two years, like year 3 and 4 were really 00:09:36.820 --> 00:09:39.866 challenging and I was having this crazy pregnancy and then on top of that 00:09:39.899 --> 00:09:45.667 , it just felt like too much. My mom died when Jubilee was um Like 2 00:09:45.700 --> 00:09:49.836 months old, you know, so I'd never really had time to grieve. We had to 00:09:49.869 --> 00:09:54.066 leave Patagonia to come to Phoenix because it's a bigger job market and we 00:09:54.099 --> 00:09:57.866 had to really start thinking about being financially secure instead of 00:09:57.899 --> 00:10:04.157 having this bohemian lifestyle which was really gratifying on one level 00:10:04.190 --> 00:10:07.866 but on a material level we really weren't making any money so we really 00:10:07.899 --> 00:10:13.866 had to start looking at that sort of grown up stuff. With Caleb, um, how 00:10:13.899 --> 00:10:18.856 was the physical experience? Was it, did you put on a lot of weight or 00:10:18.889 --> 00:10:22.576 have water retention or all of that stuff that comes along with it? With 00:10:22.609 --> 00:10:29.356 Jubilee, I put on 28 pounds. Um, I had no Difficulty really, not even 00:10:29.389 --> 00:10:34.275 morning sickness, nothing except for feet swelling, you know, but that 00:10:34.308 --> 00:10:38.356 wasn't even a big deal. I mean, I would drink a lot of cucumber juice and 00:10:38.389 --> 00:10:42.816 the foot swelling would happen more like towards the end of the day, you 00:10:42.849 --> 00:10:47.635 know, um, because I live in Arizona and I'm on my feet a lot and that just 00:10:47.668 --> 00:10:52.677 runs in our family anyway, so it wasn't, you know, traumatic or anything. 00:10:52.710 --> 00:10:58.755 I was still able to live my life. With Caleb, um, Even though I didn't 00:10:58.788 --> 00:11:03.037 have any complications that would send me to a hospital or that were 00:11:03.070 --> 00:11:09.635 alarming, I did have, um, I did have to really work on my iron levels more 00:11:09.668 --> 00:11:14.917 than I did with Jubilee and um. 00:11:14.950 --> 00:11:19.836 There was just, he was a bigger baby. He was like almost Jubilee was 5 00:11:19.869 --> 00:11:25.236 pounds and 14 ounces, so she was only say a little bit under 6 pounds, 00:11:25.269 --> 00:11:30.875 whereas Caleb was 8 pounds and 2 ounces, so he was just a bigger person 00:11:30.908 --> 00:11:36.116 and I could feel it right away, um, just energetically he was a different 00:11:36.149 --> 00:11:42.246 person, you know, than my daughter was and um. With Jubilee, I felt joyful 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:46.746 all the time and optimistic, whereas with him I was more introspective and 00:11:46.779 --> 00:11:51.177 um I could say I was a little more driven with him than I was, but I was 00:11:51.210 --> 00:11:59.210 also a lot grumpier in that pregnancy and um. Was he a planned birth? Um. 00:12:01.928 --> 00:12:08.005 He was also planned. He, he was a planned birth, but he did come a few 00:12:08.038 --> 00:12:13.875 months earlier than our original plan, you know. But that was OK. We knew 00:12:13.908 --> 00:12:17.515 we wanted to have a second child and we knew we wanted to do it before I 00:12:17.548 --> 00:12:24.917 turned 42 and we had him when I was 41. You know, um, so. 00:12:24.950 --> 00:12:29.385 Yeah, our children were loosely planned, I'd say. 00:12:29.418 --> 00:12:32.726 Um, we may want to separate the births out a little bit more, so instead 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:37.096 of going back and forth for the listener. So we might have to repeat what 00:12:37.129 --> 00:12:43.717 I said but maybe when we talk about the um. Uh, Jubilee labor and delivery 00:12:43.750 --> 00:12:47.836 and then post labor and delivery, and then we'll talk about Caleb's, yeah 00:12:47.869 --> 00:12:52.907 , OK. So, um, with Jubilee, that's incredible. You only gained 20 pounds. 00:12:52.940 --> 00:12:57.106 You sound like you had a great pregnancy. It was amazing. It was a dream 00:12:57.139 --> 00:13:00.307 . I mean, I was just like, oh my God, this is amazing. I almost didn't 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:04.576 want to tell people how great I felt because I didn't want to, you know. 00:13:04.609 --> 00:13:08.106 Like create weird feelings or you know disbelief. I was just like, oh, 00:13:08.139 --> 00:13:16.139 I'm doing fine. You know, but 00:13:18.009 --> 00:13:22.217 it's further away. Oh, OK, but um. OK, so yeah, that's really lucky and 00:13:22.250 --> 00:13:29.076 then it set you up for. I know, right? I know. I mean, he was sitting so 00:13:29.109 --> 00:13:32.446 low, you know, and I at the time we didn't have a second car, so I was 00:13:32.479 --> 00:13:36.486 doing a lot of walking in Phoenix on the bus with a little stroller and 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:40.135 jubilee and it felt like, you know, really he was like hanging out in my 00:13:40.168 --> 00:13:44.657 crotch like the whole time I was just walking like this. You know, it was 00:13:44.690 --> 00:13:50.686 crazy, but I got through it and and the Braxton Hicks, the second time, 00:13:50.719 --> 00:13:54.807 they started at 14 weeks and they were strong the whole time, you know. So 00:13:54.840 --> 00:13:58.846 my midwife was like, Oh, so have you been having any practice contri I've 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:04.086 been having them the whole pregnancy. It's like, but um. But they weren't 00:14:04.119 --> 00:14:09.005 actual, you know, labor contractions. They were just the very intense. I 00:14:09.038 --> 00:14:14.066 guess they become more intense with progressive pregnancies, I hear. So 00:14:14.099 --> 00:14:19.356 that was kind of uncomfortable and um. And were you working with the same 00:14:19.389 --> 00:14:27.047 midwife? No, uh, I, when we moved to Phoenix, I got a different midwife. 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:35.080 Um, and I just loved her. She was, she was great. Um, so. Yeah, we had 2 00:14:35.869 --> 00:14:40.226 different midwives in Arizona because we were 3 hours away from where our 00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:47.066 first midwife was. So, OK, why don't we, um, go back to Jubilee's labor 00:14:47.099 --> 00:14:53.076 delivery experience so maybe um. Talk about like how far along you were in 00:14:53.109 --> 00:14:57.836 terms of your due date and then um like when you noticed contractions like 00:14:57.869 --> 00:15:04.427 what the what you what the process was. OK, I'm just gonna walk this way. 00:15:04.460 --> 00:15:12.460 So with Jubilee, I was um She was 10 days late, so I guess. Um, yeah, 10 00:15:15.750 --> 00:15:20.366 days after the 40 week mark. 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.486 Was was when she came and so I was concerned that I might have to go to 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:28.645 the hospital and be induced because it was really kind of coming close to 00:15:28.678 --> 00:15:36.005 that you know but um labor started. I was at um a spiritual ceremony we 00:15:36.038 --> 00:15:42.206 were doing it was Friday night it was Shabbat and they were doing the sort 00:15:42.239 --> 00:15:49.157 of beginning part and um. And one of my friends had told me that, you know 00:15:49.190 --> 00:15:52.816 , when when your water breaks, you hear a sort of snap, like you can 00:15:52.849 --> 00:15:58.057 almost hear it in your body, you know, um, and my mother had told me that 00:15:58.090 --> 00:16:02.616 with both her labors, she, her water broke and then labor start. There was 00:16:02.649 --> 00:16:07.826 like nothing before that, you know, so I heard that snap. And I was like, 00:16:07.859 --> 00:16:12.226 but there was no water, so I was like, huh, OK, well, you know, because I 00:16:12.259 --> 00:16:15.106 even went running out to the place where there was like bare floors so I 00:16:15.139 --> 00:16:19.586 wouldn't mess up the carpet, you know, as soon as I heard that snap, but 00:16:19.619 --> 00:16:23.246 nothing happened. I was like, OK, I probably just imagined it. And then my 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:25.986 midwife had told me she was like, you know, one of the signs that you're 00:16:26.019 --> 00:16:30.145 in labor is that you might notice that your vision starts to become a 00:16:30.178 --> 00:16:35.856 little bit more twinkly, like, you know, your vision changes. And I 00:16:35.889 --> 00:16:40.635 noticed that my vision was becoming kind of, it was almost like dreamy. I 00:16:40.668 --> 00:16:45.456 was like, OK, this is interesting. I heard a snap. My vision is dreamy, 00:16:45.489 --> 00:16:49.576 and then a half hour later when I was sitting in meditation, I started to 00:16:49.609 --> 00:16:53.686 feel contractions that felt like crampy, and this was the first time I'd 00:16:53.719 --> 00:16:58.936 felt contractions that were crampy, so it made me think, hmm, you know, 00:16:58.969 --> 00:17:02.726 this might be it, but I didn't want to get too excited, so I didn't say 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:05.416 anything. I just kind of sat through it and then an hour into it I was 00:17:05.449 --> 00:17:12.776 like, OK, this is rhythmic and it's crampy. And it's time. So this must be 00:17:12.809 --> 00:17:18.217 it. So, um, I called my husband to pick me up. I didn't want to take the 00:17:18.250 --> 00:17:23.736 risk of walking home in case it became really intense walking home. Um, 00:17:23.769 --> 00:17:27.456 and you know, he picked me up and uh we went home and we started timing 00:17:27.489 --> 00:17:31.936 them and we were like, OK, this seems to be it. We called our midwife 00:17:31.969 --> 00:17:37.506 because she was an hour away, so she really needed to have the notice. Um. 00:17:37.539 --> 00:17:42.647 And I told her and she came down and everything was gentle and it was 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:48.996 proceeding and then, you know, after about I don't know, maybe about 8 00:17:49.029 --> 00:17:53.436 hours. It just stopped, you know, so I went to sleep and it wasn't intense 00:17:53.469 --> 00:17:57.156 at all, you know, I, I was expecting it to be just murder because I always 00:17:57.189 --> 00:18:02.597 had really horrible periods that were like super intense like laying out 00:18:02.630 --> 00:18:05.956 on the bed kind of thing. My husband was like, yeah, you've had far worse 00:18:05.989 --> 00:18:11.416 periods than this, you know. So, um, so it stopped for about 6 or 7 hours 00:18:11.449 --> 00:18:18.545 and then it started up again. And 00:18:18.578 --> 00:18:25.785 I'll just take a break and walk over here. 00:18:25.818 --> 00:18:31.825 So, um, one of the things we figured out was that 00:18:31.858 --> 00:18:37.097 That my contractions would pick up. You know when we were alone and they 00:18:37.130 --> 00:18:41.026 would slow down as soon as the midwives came. So eventually we had to sort 00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:46.055 of shoo the midwives away, you know, and um and we took a walk, we went up 00:18:46.088 --> 00:18:50.335 on the mesa and took a walk around the labyrinth and so forth and that 00:18:50.368 --> 00:18:54.656 seemed to accelerate things and I had another friend who was a licensed 00:18:54.689 --> 00:18:59.936 doula and she had started her midwifery training but had kind of stopped 00:18:59.969 --> 00:19:04.835 when they moved out of state to come to Arizona. So she was kind of like 00:19:04.868 --> 00:19:10.717 My friend You know, um, she was there for me more emotionally than the 00:19:10.750 --> 00:19:15.545 midwife set. And so she kind of helped me find some positions that would 00:19:15.578 --> 00:19:23.578 work and, uh, that seemed to really accelerate labor when I would 00:19:25.989 --> 00:19:31.236 When I would squat during contractions, to kind of help bring things down. 00:19:31.269 --> 00:19:34.835 But it was really gentle. I mean, I, I was smiling through contractions 00:19:34.868 --> 00:19:39.117 the whole time and I think that helped me preserve my strength during 33 00:19:39.150 --> 00:19:46.045 hours of labor. And also being able to eat and so forth, um. And I used to 00:19:46.078 --> 00:19:49.565 laugh when I'd read birth stories of people sleeping between contractions. 00:19:49.598 --> 00:19:53.367 I'm like, how could you do that? That doesn't make any sense. When you're 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:58.686 tired enough, that like 3 minutes is like, oh yeah, yeah, that was 00:19:58.719 --> 00:20:03.867 refreshing. I would totally sleep towards the last 3 hours I was sleeping 00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:07.506 between contractions. 00:20:07.539 --> 00:20:12.426 Um, I'll wait till he. 00:20:12.459 --> 00:20:17.147 trying to like yeah. Oh yeah, he does, he does. 00:20:17.180 --> 00:20:22.986 I think I'm. No, no, it totally makes sense. I'm trying to get him to face 00:20:23.019 --> 00:20:26.127 away from, you know, that's why I like the mirror cause he can just look 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:30.506 at the mirror. Um, 00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:38.539 Oh, sweetie. Do you want to nurse a little bit? Maybe can I switch to 00:20:40.900 --> 00:20:46.815 OK, it's recording, so I myself. 00:20:46.848 --> 00:20:54.065 So, um. Yeah, so even, even the, the pushing process, it was only like 00:20:54.098 --> 00:20:59.006 maybe half an hour and 3 little pushes. She crowned a little bit and then 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:06.696 , you know, and then the next push her whole body just shot out. Um. So it 00:21:06.729 --> 00:21:13.367 wasn't um. It didn't feel, you know, traumatic, and a 33 hours sounds 00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:18.746 terrible, but it wasn't intense. My mom. And her sisters and my 00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:22.147 grandmother, they had really short intense labor. It's like 4 hours from 00:21:22.180 --> 00:21:28.026 start to finish, including placenta out and um and my mom said it was so 00:21:28.059 --> 00:21:32.916 intense that she didn't even have time to breathe between contractions. 00:21:32.949 --> 00:21:35.906 She was like it was, it's I was expecting, you know, but it was really 00:21:35.939 --> 00:21:40.526 gentle and and sweet and I think that helped me keep my energy up or else 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:45.107 I for sure probably would have gotten too tired or had to be transferred 00:21:45.140 --> 00:21:47.756 or whatever. 00:21:47.789 --> 00:21:50.156 They're 00:21:50.189 --> 00:21:55.436 you know they would like go inward or you know, were you able to carry on 00:21:55.469 --> 00:21:57.746 conversations and stuff or did you have, how did you get into the right 00:21:57.779 --> 00:22:03.936 headspace to be able to make it through those 36 hours. I think that, um. 00:22:03.969 --> 00:22:10.996 I just chose to tap into a joyful place, you know, and I just kind of 00:22:11.029 --> 00:22:16.476 stayed there and I, I smiled a lot until like my body felt it, you know. 00:22:16.509 --> 00:22:24.226 And um and another thing is that I just kind of Reached into certain 00:22:24.259 --> 00:22:30.696 experiences that I'd had spiritually or for my yoga practice of surrender 00:22:30.729 --> 00:22:36.647 and complete acceptance, like, you know. Like the divine feminine energy 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:41.357 is running this thing, you know, and like I'm participating in it. And yes 00:22:41.390 --> 00:22:46.776 , I, I am, you know, co-creating in this experience, but at the end of the 00:22:46.809 --> 00:22:51.575 day I'm not really fully in charge and just I just opened myself up to 00:22:51.608 --> 00:22:56.936 that and allowed it to to govern, you know, and and and trusted that 00:22:56.969 --> 00:23:01.617 intelligence that has birthed women for millennia, I mean people for 00:23:01.650 --> 00:23:05.857 millennia, you know, through women. I just trusted that and I trusted that 00:23:05.890 --> 00:23:11.847 like even if I ended up. With a C-section, that that that's what was, you 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:18.726 know, ordained for me and um yeah, I trusted that. I, I trusted my child. 00:23:18.759 --> 00:23:26.026 I trusted myself. I trusted my body, um, I trusted my partner. Um, You 00:23:26.059 --> 00:23:30.946 know, so I, I think just really kind of softening as opposed to stealing 00:23:30.979 --> 00:23:34.026 myself into, you know, but just really softening into that space of 00:23:34.059 --> 00:23:39.706 surrender. And honestly, I know this probably sounds a little woo woo, but 00:23:39.739 --> 00:23:44.700 I felt like energetically it's almost like It comes from above and to your 00:23:44.733 --> 00:23:49.410 head and it kind of spirals down and it spirals the baby out. So 00:23:49.443 --> 00:23:54.502 everything I would do would be like moving my hips and circling and, you 00:23:54.535 --> 00:24:00.597 know, just kind of feeling that. And that allowed me to I wasn't fighting 00:24:00.630 --> 00:24:06.295 it, so I was able to preserve my strength. So it didn't feel like I was 00:24:06.328 --> 00:24:14.328 fighting anything. Yeah. What was your husband's role? Well, um, his, oh 00:24:14.390 --> 00:24:17.637 yeah, well, this is interesting. There were two roles. One of them we 00:24:17.670 --> 00:24:21.597 actually fought about a little bit afterwards, but then in retrospect, he 00:24:21.630 --> 00:24:29.630 was right, you know, but There was a time where one of my midwives was um. 00:24:29.729 --> 00:24:34.295 Well, the main midwife really was really kind of concerned that. You know 00:24:34.328 --> 00:24:39.055 , it was taking too long and I was going to get tired or I wasn't taking 00:24:39.088 --> 00:24:42.746 this seriously, I wasn't doing enough work to open up, you know, and so 00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:48.266 forth. And she was already starting to talk transfer. This is like maybe 00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:53.387 1315 hours into the process. And so my husband was like, well you can't 00:24:53.420 --> 00:24:56.906 tell her that. I'm not going to allow you to say that to her and I want 00:24:56.939 --> 00:25:01.867 you to stay away until we call you, you know, and they had a knockout drag 00:25:01.900 --> 00:25:06.026 out fight, you know, and I think my, after I learned about it after the 00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:08.795 birth, I was like, you should have, it was my responsibility. You should 00:25:08.828 --> 00:25:12.996 have let me have that fight and this and that and he was like, no, because 00:25:13.029 --> 00:25:16.916 you know I don't know if that would have taken you out or not, and you had 00:25:16.949 --> 00:25:22.756 other work to do and she was fussing too much about it. And um and I just 00:25:22.789 --> 00:25:26.717 told her, give us a chance, give us until you know whatever clock he said 00:25:26.750 --> 00:25:31.717 , and if things aren't moving by then, then we'll do it your way. And 00:25:31.750 --> 00:25:35.196 things were moving by then because you know they left us alone. They gave 00:25:35.229 --> 00:25:40.436 us more space and we were able to get into our groove. So good for him for 00:25:40.469 --> 00:25:46.196 that. He, he played the protector role even though, you know, I, I went 00:25:46.229 --> 00:25:49.956 back and forth about whether it was patronizing or whether it was actually 00:25:49.989 --> 00:25:54.397 helpful, but, you know, years later I can look back and see that it was 00:25:54.430 --> 00:25:58.877 appropriate, you know, that's what. He needed to do. He also played the 00:25:58.910 --> 00:26:04.436 great role of me holding on to his waistband when I, when I needed to 00:26:04.469 --> 00:26:09.075 squat and during contractions, you know, and he, I also was leaning 00:26:09.108 --> 00:26:15.075 against him when I finally pushed Jubilee out. So he played that role and 00:26:15.108 --> 00:26:18.785 kind of helped with clean up a bit and getting me food and stuff during 00:26:18.818 --> 00:26:24.496 the. The process. Can you um talk about that actual moment where Jubilee 00:26:24.529 --> 00:26:32.416 emerged into the world. Oh my gosh, well, um. 00:26:32.449 --> 00:26:35.936 After 33 hours of labor, I just got to a point where I didn't believe I 00:26:35.969 --> 00:26:39.416 would actually ever give birth. I just felt like I would be pregnant 00:26:39.449 --> 00:26:44.295 forever and I would be birthing forever and it was just never gonna end. 00:26:44.328 --> 00:26:47.776 And even when my midwife was like, OK, your baby's crowning, that's, 00:26:47.809 --> 00:26:50.857 that's the head. give each time and feel the baby's head. I was just 00:26:50.890 --> 00:26:54.756 rolling my eyes like, yeah, right, you know. Yeah, even though I felt a 00:26:54.789 --> 00:26:58.335 baby's head, I just didn't believe that it was a baby's head. And so when 00:26:58.368 --> 00:27:03.686 she came out and she came out so quickly. It was just shocking, I think I 00:27:03.719 --> 00:27:10.147 was just shocked, you know, um. You know, It was just shocking and then on 00:27:10.180 --> 00:27:16.026 top of that, she was really um I don't know if this sounds like a bad 00:27:16.059 --> 00:27:20.906 thing to say, but she was really really fair, you know, and I was not 00:27:20.939 --> 00:27:24.226 expecting that. I mean, my husband is white, so my children are biracial 00:27:24.259 --> 00:27:28.825 and you know, African descent babies are usually born very light skinned, 00:27:28.858 --> 00:27:33.906 but I was not expecting that. So that kind of took me aback for a minute. 00:27:33.939 --> 00:27:41.676 Plus I was really tired, but I think that um. Once we You know, we, we, 00:27:41.709 --> 00:27:47.026 we, we nursed and um it got me showered and cleaned up and in bed. We all 00:27:47.059 --> 00:27:50.956 slept. I slept for like about 5 hours, both my husband and I, and when we 00:27:50.989 --> 00:27:56.236 woke up and we looked at her, like all the love feelings just descended on 00:27:56.269 --> 00:28:01.795 me and I was like, oh my God, she's so cute, she's here, you know, but at 00:28:01.828 --> 00:28:06.756 the time it was, it was stunning. You know, I was just stunned. You know, 00:28:06.789 --> 00:28:11.887 I was kind of stunned into motherhood. You know, um, so it took a few 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:18.736 hours and and a little sleep for me to recalibrate. Um, and, and, and make 00:28:18.769 --> 00:28:21.916 that transition into mother. 00:28:21.949 --> 00:28:27.276 How was um life at home afterwards? Were you nursing and sleeping at all? 00:28:27.309 --> 00:28:32.357 Well, nursing was, was pretty easy. I mean, she lashed on right away. I 00:28:32.390 --> 00:28:37.035 never had any issues. Um, I did have an issue a little bit with with her 00:28:37.068 --> 00:28:42.315 preferring one breast over another, but I just didn't get into a thing 00:28:42.348 --> 00:28:46.196 about it, and I just alternated and alternated and alternated until she 00:28:46.229 --> 00:28:52.186 liked both breasts equally and um. And after about a week, I was 00:28:52.219 --> 00:28:58.706 determined that I wanted Andrews to participate in it, so I would pump and 00:28:58.739 --> 00:29:03.186 nurse at the same time because it would keep my supply up, and I felt like 00:29:03.219 --> 00:29:07.746 I wanted him to participate, which was really frowned upon by several 00:29:07.779 --> 00:29:10.785 people in my circle, but I was like, I don't care, this is what I'm doing 00:29:10.818 --> 00:29:14.357 because you were introducing the model. 00:29:14.390 --> 00:29:19.295 But um. And they were like, oh, it might, you know, nursing needs to be 00:29:19.328 --> 00:29:22.137 established, but I was like, but it is established. She, she really is 00:29:22.170 --> 00:29:27.607 nursing well and you know, and you know if I ever want a break, this is 00:29:27.640 --> 00:29:30.936 going to be the way I get it, you know, and I feel like that's going to be 00:29:30.969 --> 00:29:38.055 important for me, you know. Um, so yeah, we're nursing, she was sleeping 00:29:38.088 --> 00:29:43.926 really well, like a champ, um. You know, there were no complications. You 00:29:43.959 --> 00:29:49.746 didn't have jaundice or anything and. Um, 00:29:49.779 --> 00:29:55.026 Community wise, um. 00:29:55.059 --> 00:29:58.795 You know, I mean, people. 00:29:58.828 --> 00:30:02.627 I don't know. I, coming from a different culture, the postpartum 00:30:02.660 --> 00:30:09.467 experience was really different for me in this culture. Um, I, I know my, 00:30:09.500 --> 00:30:15.506 my experience was compounded by the fact that I have no family in this 00:30:15.539 --> 00:30:22.416 state, you know, um. And very little family in the country really or you 00:30:22.449 --> 00:30:27.607 know I have a lot of cousins but they're in like North Carolina so 00:30:27.640 --> 00:30:33.246 culturally we usually have about 30 days where the woman just lies in and 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:37.926 relatives cook and clean for her and you know she just nurses and you know 00:30:37.959 --> 00:30:41.285 kind of rebuilds her strength, you know, and I really understand the value 00:30:41.318 --> 00:30:47.776 of that now and not having had that, um, I really missed that. And made me 00:30:47.809 --> 00:30:53.976 , you know, feel a little bit more homesick. And um, you know, my husband 00:30:54.009 --> 00:30:59.467 was able to stay home for about. Oh, maybe 2 weeks, but then you had to go 00:30:59.500 --> 00:31:04.946 back to work, you know. So, um, those 1st 2 weeks at home were quite 00:31:04.979 --> 00:31:10.147 blissful. While there was a 4 day period where my in-laws came, that was 00:31:10.180 --> 00:31:15.416 interesting, you know, um, because my relationship with them is not smooth 00:31:15.449 --> 00:31:22.085 , but um. But I feel like it was necessary for them to bond with their 00:31:22.118 --> 00:31:28.246 grandchild, um, in subsequent birth. I I chose to do it at a later time. I 00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:31.166 was just like, you know what, at the end of the day, I'm the one, I think 00:31:31.199 --> 00:31:35.416 I I deferred too much to pleasing other people, you know, I was still kind 00:31:35.449 --> 00:31:39.686 of finding my way as a mother. And even though I felt confident, I, I 00:31:39.719 --> 00:31:43.805 didn't want to offend people. I wanted to include people. I really wanted 00:31:43.838 --> 00:31:49.766 community for my family and for my Child, and I felt like, you know, you 00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:55.147 don't say you want community, but then act in a way that repels people. Um 00:31:55.180 --> 00:32:00.575 , so I think I went too much the other way. You know, cause I didn't 00:32:00.608 --> 00:32:04.075 understand why people here were so above boundaries with their babies and 00:32:04.108 --> 00:32:08.637 so forth, but now that I've lived it, I understand why they're like that. 00:32:08.670 --> 00:32:14.506 So I went the opposite extreme, you know, the next time around, but um. 00:32:14.539 --> 00:32:19.426 But it was good, you know, I, I felt good. I felt strong, I felt capable. 00:32:19.459 --> 00:32:24.186 I didn't have postpartum depression, thank God, um, at least with the 00:32:24.219 --> 00:32:29.107 first one. And um. 00:32:29.140 --> 00:32:33.196 You know, and she grew strong. She picked up weight really fast. She was 00:32:33.229 --> 00:32:37.996 born in like probably like the 10th percentile or something like that, but 00:32:38.029 --> 00:32:44.910 within 3 months, she was in like the 80th, 90th percentile, you know, so. 00:32:45.410 --> 00:32:47.410 That's just how that worked. You can, um, maybe go into the second labor 00:32:51.289 --> 00:32:53.976 delivery experience because I think we pretty much set it up in terms of 00:32:54.009 --> 00:32:59.107 your pregnancy already. OK. So, and what made me preface it, so you plan 00:32:59.140 --> 00:33:07.140 it at home with a different midwife and you know, kind of go from there 00:33:07.709 --> 00:33:10.887 I don't want my husband. 00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:14.406 I 00:33:14.439 --> 00:33:21.156 So with the second pregnancy, um. 00:33:21.189 --> 00:33:26.897 I had learned a lot from Jubilee's Labor and Delivery. I knew that um in 00:33:26.930 --> 00:33:32.986 the midwife interviewing process, I would definitely prefer. 00:33:33.019 --> 00:33:38.916 Someone who who knew what they were doing and who was experienced, um, but 00:33:38.949 --> 00:33:45.045 who would give me space to do what I needed to do and not really be too. 00:33:45.078 --> 00:33:50.285 Bossy or. I don't want to use the word bossy because I wouldn't say that 00:33:50.318 --> 00:33:55.426 the other lady was bossy, but, um, who would give me space and trust me to 00:33:55.459 --> 00:34:00.206 do what I needed to do and who wouldn't be freaked out if I was playing, 00:34:00.239 --> 00:34:08.115 you know, crazy. Spiritual music or if I brought out a drum or, you know, 00:34:08.148 --> 00:34:11.195 um, I mean they could be religious, but it couldn't be to the point that 00:34:11.228 --> 00:34:17.037 it made me feel uncomfortable being myself. Um, and so the very first 00:34:17.070 --> 00:34:20.124 midwife I interviewed. 00:34:20.157 --> 00:34:25.495 Just made me feel right at home and at ease, and she'd been a sun dancer, 00:34:25.528 --> 00:34:31.965 so she understood Native American. Ceremony. I think she also is Native 00:34:31.998 --> 00:34:36.555 American. So it, it kind of, I knew that I could feel comfortable around 00:34:36.588 --> 00:34:41.914 her in that in that way. So we went with her and she also seemed like she 00:34:41.947 --> 00:34:49.947 really knew what was up. With everything and I think that I also felt. A 00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:56.646 little bit let down in my postpartum care by my first midwife. So I was 00:34:56.679 --> 00:35:02.037 really wanting someone who would be thorough about postpartum care given 00:35:02.070 --> 00:35:06.307 that, you know, I don't have health insurance, I don't have family. I was 00:35:06.340 --> 00:35:08.546 in a situation where I didn't really have a lot of friends because I'd 00:35:08.579 --> 00:35:13.066 just been thrown knee-deep into baby. I just didn't take the time to 00:35:13.099 --> 00:35:17.425 cultivate friendships when I moved to Phoenix, uh, the way I would have in 00:35:17.458 --> 00:35:23.595 my old life, where I was always outgoing and doing stuff. 00:35:23.628 --> 00:35:28.816 So. 00:35:28.849 --> 00:35:32.997 Oh 00:35:33.030 --> 00:35:41.030 So in any case, um, she assured me that it's OK. OK, so can you start from 00:35:41.429 --> 00:35:46.236 that point? OK. Um, so anyway, basically I was sure that Shell would be an 00:35:46.269 --> 00:35:53.916 amazing midwife, which she was. And um, and I think the second labor and 00:35:53.949 --> 00:36:01.195 delivery, I, I just was kind of very practical about it, you know, I just 00:36:01.228 --> 00:36:08.977 came at it sort of all business, you know. I had my um. My, you know, my, 00:36:09.010 --> 00:36:17.010 uh, spirit dance songs and my, you know, chanting music set up and um I 00:36:17.050 --> 00:36:24.956 was lying in bed. The last prenatal I had had a few days before. 00:36:24.989 --> 00:36:31.727 Said that um. My midwife had warned me that I might have um a posterior 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:36.186 facing baby, which means back labor. I was kind of like surrendered to the 00:36:36.219 --> 00:36:40.925 possibility of what that might mean, um, even though I hadn't experienced 00:36:40.958 --> 00:36:44.767 it, but to just be ready for that and I was at peace with that and you 00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.106 know that night I Right before I went to bed, I went to bed at 12:30 00:36:49.139 --> 00:36:55.296 because I stayed up late watching a stupid movie, you know, 00:36:55.329 --> 00:36:58.756 and um before I went to bed, I was like, OK, you know what, I trust you to 00:36:58.789 --> 00:37:02.905 get in the right position for your birth, little guy or little girl, you 00:37:02.938 --> 00:37:07.666 know, and um and I trust that whatever happens, you know, we'll just, 00:37:07.699 --> 00:37:13.026 we'll just get it done, you know. And I literally felt like a lot of 00:37:13.059 --> 00:37:16.467 turning, not right that moment, but I had been saying that mantra since 00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:19.816 she had told me that each night before I went to bed. But that night I 00:37:19.849 --> 00:37:23.916 felt a lot of turning like it almost felt like he was getting into 00:37:23.949 --> 00:37:27.956 position because he was already head down, so I was like, you're dancing a 00:37:27.989 --> 00:37:30.747 lot. I don't know what kind of turning you're doing, but whatever, you 00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:37.776 know, and then. At around 1:30 I started having cramps. You know, I kind 00:37:37.809 --> 00:37:41.655 of was woken up with a crampy feeling and I was like, oh, and it was right 00:37:41.688 --> 00:37:45.986 on my due date too. And I was like, huh, I don't know, this could be it, 00:37:46.019 --> 00:37:49.467 but I'll just lay here for an hour and if it continues for an hour, then 00:37:49.500 --> 00:37:53.307 I'll wake and rose up. And sure enough, it continued for an hour and it 00:37:53.340 --> 00:37:57.106 was rhythmic, you know. So I was like, OK, well this is it. So I was like 00:37:57.139 --> 00:38:01.267 , OK, wake up, you know, we're in labor, and I knew he believed me because 00:38:01.300 --> 00:38:04.945 he started working on the list that I had given him weeks before of all 00:38:04.978 --> 00:38:07.865 the little things around the house that needed to be done before the baby 00:38:07.898 --> 00:38:12.945 came. He started doing that, doing that shit right then. I'm like, OK, 00:38:12.978 --> 00:38:20.267 yeah. You know, and um. I put together some kind of like I, I had some 00:38:20.300 --> 00:38:23.666 lima beans soaked and so I put together some kind of stew that the 00:38:23.699 --> 00:38:26.517 midwives could eat. I wasn't even thinking clearly because by the time it 00:38:26.550 --> 00:38:29.316 was ready, it was time for breakfast, so it wasn't really a good breakfast 00:38:29.349 --> 00:38:33.276 meal, but that's what I had to make. So I put that together while I was 00:38:33.309 --> 00:38:37.756 still feeling good and energetic and um my midwife had told me to make 00:38:37.789 --> 00:38:41.155 sure you eat something a little bit and drink something and take these 00:38:41.188 --> 00:38:48.916 herbs, you know, so I ate and drank and Took the little herbs and um. And 00:38:48.949 --> 00:38:53.756 then it started picking up and honestly it was picking up much faster than 00:38:53.789 --> 00:38:58.595 Jubilee labor. Um, it was a little bit more intense but still nothing I 00:38:58.628 --> 00:39:02.557 couldn't handle. I just had, we had gotten a big double stroller, so you 00:39:02.590 --> 00:39:06.557 know those things can be really sturdy. So that's what I leaned on, you 00:39:06.590 --> 00:39:12.135 know, to do my squatting stuff during labor while my husband, you know, 00:39:12.168 --> 00:39:17.186 cleaned up a little bit and did stuff around the house, um. And I just 00:39:17.219 --> 00:39:23.666 kind of got on with it, you know, um, and then I didn't call my midwife 00:39:23.699 --> 00:39:27.925 until about 4. 00:39:27.958 --> 00:39:30.327 Sorry. 00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:37.486 Until about 4 or 5 hours into it because I, I didn't want a whole bunch of 00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:41.327 people there. So I called her and I said, you know, you don't have to come 00:39:41.360 --> 00:39:44.686 now. I'm just giving you a heads up so you guys can get your babysitters 00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:50.155 or whatever, you know, you need to get prepared, um. And I also didn't 00:39:50.188 --> 00:39:54.336 want her to come. Right away because it was the middle of the night and I 00:39:54.369 --> 00:39:57.017 always feel bad about calling people in the middle of the night. I mean, I 00:39:57.050 --> 00:40:01.767 know it's their job, but you know, if they can get more sleep, then why 00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:06.217 should they be there not sleeping, watching me do stuff I can do by myself 00:40:06.250 --> 00:40:11.135 , you know. Yes, 00:40:11.168 --> 00:40:13.695 I, there was that because they kept telling me, oh, it won't be as long as 00:40:13.728 --> 00:40:17.695 the first one. I was just like, oh, I don't know, it might, you know. So I 00:40:17.728 --> 00:40:24.967 was just like I didn't want to drag anyone out for that. So And I called 00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:29.807 her and I told her and then 2 hours later I was like, OK, you probably, I 00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:33.267 think I'm heading towards transition. I could feel my body was like really 00:40:33.300 --> 00:40:37.046 close to the transition point. So I was like, you know, you probably have 00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:42.606 about 2 hours, 2 or 3 hours. And um and I was right, you know, and by the 00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:48.526 time they came, I think I birthed maybe an hour and a half later or 00:40:48.559 --> 00:40:53.736 something like that. And And at that point it was really, really intense. 00:40:53.769 --> 00:40:57.267 Like it was like what my mom described. Like I couldn't even breathe 00:40:57.300 --> 00:40:59.816 between contractions. The contractions just felt like they were rolling 00:40:59.849 --> 00:41:04.217 into each other, you know, and I didn't even push him out. You know, I was 00:41:04.250 --> 00:41:07.497 surprised, you know, when he was crowning and he was, you know, I kept 00:41:07.530 --> 00:41:10.416 waiting for that urge to push. It never came. My body just sort of pushed 00:41:10.449 --> 00:41:17.655 him out. So it was like that intense towards the end, um, but I think I 00:41:17.688 --> 00:41:22.615 never freaked out and I was able to stay centered, but with him I was in a 00:41:22.648 --> 00:41:26.885 much more practical space. I never really went to a fully like spiritual 00:41:26.918 --> 00:41:31.977 ecstatic place like I did with Jubilee. um, and when he was born, I was 00:41:32.010 --> 00:41:36.006 fully alert and awake. It was about. 00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:44.039 Ah, it was in the morning. And um let me see, 1:30, it was like 9:05 or 00:41:44.458 --> 00:41:50.865 something like that and um. Yeah, I was fully awake and I I was able to 00:41:50.898 --> 00:41:56.526 appreciate him right away and, you know, and feel the love right away and. 00:41:56.559 --> 00:42:01.626 Yeah. And this time, the, the first time like the the midwife had just 00:42:01.659 --> 00:42:05.546 left almost right away. But this time they stayed for 2 hours and they 00:42:05.579 --> 00:42:11.626 checked me and I had tour with the second one. So they stitched me up and 00:42:11.659 --> 00:42:15.126 made sure everything was good. How is that? Because it never even occurred 00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:17.925 to you that you're not. Are you giving numbing agents when they're doing 00:42:17.958 --> 00:42:21.796 that in the home? They do, they do give you numbing agents. I didn't feel 00:42:21.829 --> 00:42:26.327 it at all, except for one little spot. It was like a little uh anesthetic 00:42:26.360 --> 00:42:30.126 spray. I guess she sprayed on there, because that had been something I 00:42:30.159 --> 00:42:36.606 thought about like, oh, that's gonna hurt, but yeah, it was no big deal. 00:42:36.639 --> 00:42:43.066 So why don't we talk about after that on the post. Um, I think that I, I 00:42:43.099 --> 00:42:48.827 was able to recover much stronger and much more quickly with Caleb than I 00:42:48.860 --> 00:42:54.086 was with Jubilee because I didn't really allow any visitors until I think 00:42:54.119 --> 00:43:00.845 we had our first visitor. I think he was about 7 weeks. It was his parents 00:43:00.878 --> 00:43:04.767 and uh my best friend had offered to come but I I just really, I didn't 00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:07.986 even allow that because I felt like it would end up becoming about 00:43:08.019 --> 00:43:12.686 entertaining her family, even if she was coming to help. I just, I wasn't 00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:17.126 going to do that again, you know, um, and I wanted time to rest and be in 00:43:17.159 --> 00:43:21.445 my pajamas and not worry about the state of the house and worry about what 00:43:21.478 --> 00:43:28.416 people are eating and you know that kind of thing, um. And he had a little 00:43:28.449 --> 00:43:32.376 bit of jaundice, but it wasn't a big deal. We just kind of sat with him 00:43:32.409 --> 00:43:36.977 outside a little bit, um, and he nursed like a champ too right away and 00:43:37.010 --> 00:43:40.577 slept really well. He was a really good sleeper, um, so there weren't 00:43:40.610 --> 00:43:45.166 really too many issues, um. Did you say you suffered from some depression 00:43:45.199 --> 00:43:52.916 ? Yes, uh, not right away, but I, I'd say that starting into like about 6 00:43:52.949 --> 00:43:57.717 months into the process, I started to feel, you know, some depression, and 00:43:57.750 --> 00:44:01.956 it took several months for me to realize that it was postpartum depression 00:44:01.989 --> 00:44:06.836 , like when it got to the really, really bad place. Um, I never felt like 00:44:06.869 --> 00:44:12.037 hurting my child or my children, thank goodness, but I did have really 00:44:12.070 --> 00:44:19.836 dark feelings like even of suicide, you know. Um, and so. I called my 00:44:19.869 --> 00:44:23.787 midwife at that point. I was like, remember in the postpartum manual, 00:44:23.820 --> 00:44:28.717 which I don't have anymore. You had some kind of. Group at a hospital that 00:44:28.750 --> 00:44:32.236 I could reach out to and you know and so she was like, oh well I'm 00:44:32.269 --> 00:44:36.247 referring to another place now, whatever. Anyway, I ended up finding a 00:44:36.280 --> 00:44:43.077 therapist on my own and that really helped, but um yeah I mean I really I 00:44:43.110 --> 00:44:48.307 really suffered a lot with that and um consequently my friend and I want 00:44:48.340 --> 00:44:51.695 to do. 00:44:51.728 --> 00:44:56.956 Something for to help postpartum women, you know, just to. To help them 00:44:56.989 --> 00:45:00.095 feel not alone, but I think in my case it was multifactorial. I wasn't 00:45:00.128 --> 00:45:04.997 eating as well, you know, um, I started eating a little bit more processed 00:45:05.030 --> 00:45:10.195 food just because it was easier with the overwhelm and everything and um I 00:45:10.228 --> 00:45:14.675 wasn't exercising as much. I mean I walk around with these guys a lot and 00:45:14.708 --> 00:45:17.956 on my back and so forth, but I wasn't consciously exercising like I had 00:45:17.989 --> 00:45:24.686 been doing that before um I stopped calling my friends. I You know, I'd 00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:27.936 meet other moms sometimes and we'd exchange cards, but I never call them 00:45:27.969 --> 00:45:30.977 because I felt like, you know what, this is not a good time in my life to 00:45:31.010 --> 00:45:34.816 start a friendship. I'm just gonna be a flake, you know, um, I have too 00:45:34.849 --> 00:45:38.655 much to do. I'm doing it by myself. 00:45:38.688 --> 00:45:41.577 Yeah. 00:45:41.610 --> 00:45:46.256 And, um. 00:45:46.289 --> 00:45:52.776 And um you know I I just, yeah. So I think it was the isolation, the lack 00:45:52.809 --> 00:45:56.695 of support, and I wasn't doing things to cultivate my own interests as 00:45:56.728 --> 00:46:01.615 much, you know, um, I didn't have time to work on my own business and my 00:46:01.648 --> 00:46:07.345 own ideas and you know I've always been a creative person and That way. It 00:46:07.378 --> 00:46:11.345 was just too much. It was just too many. It wasn't just the hormonal piece. 00:46:11.378 --> 00:46:15.115 It was everything together, and I think that took me to that spark. So as 00:46:15.148 --> 00:46:20.376 soon as I started seeing the therapist, that shifted things and um. You 00:46:20.409 --> 00:46:25.497 know, Yeah. So that there were a lot of different things that that helped 00:46:25.530 --> 00:46:31.816 to shift things, but. It's very easy to to to fall down into that hole and 00:46:31.849 --> 00:46:38.206 I, I feel. You know, so much compassion for women in this culture who. Who 00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:44.017 get to that place and don't have support, you know. So in Zimbabwe, did 00:46:44.050 --> 00:46:47.816 you feel that there was more community built up around women with newborns 00:46:47.849 --> 00:46:53.896 ? Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, there's the extended family and there's 00:46:53.929 --> 00:47:00.865 just a sort of um. There's no, I don't even think that like babysitting is 00:47:00.898 --> 00:47:03.586 a thing. It's like you could never make money with that. It's just like, 00:47:03.619 --> 00:47:07.945 what? Just give it tell the auntie to come watch your baby, you know. What 00:47:07.978 --> 00:47:12.626 are you talking about babysitting, you know, um, it's just not even a 00:47:12.659 --> 00:47:17.146 thing, you know. There's always cousins, there's always, you know, um, and 00:47:17.179 --> 00:47:21.626 you just kind of grow up with other kids where you're I mean it's just so 00:47:21.659 --> 00:47:28.066 communal that that would never be a thing, you know, um. The hormonal 00:47:28.099 --> 00:47:31.267 piece might be something, and that might be difficult for someone who had 00:47:31.300 --> 00:47:34.945 the hormonal piece because people aren't necessarily used to that, so they 00:47:34.978 --> 00:47:38.066 wouldn't understand it and they wouldn't have the language around it. 00:47:38.099 --> 00:47:41.595 Whereas here you get a lot of support around the hormonal part, but not 00:47:41.628 --> 00:47:45.936 the other part, and I think it's really a Multifactorial thing. And people 00:47:45.969 --> 00:47:50.577 have isolated into this like, you need medication. It's like you need 00:47:50.610 --> 00:47:56.767 medication and family and purpose, and you need to take care of your body 00:47:56.800 --> 00:48:02.486 and you know, you need all kinds of things, um. You know, oh, lack of 00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:08.316 sleep. Did I mention that? I think also, um, I don't know if it's a 00:48:08.349 --> 00:48:12.066 cultural thing in America, but there's this sense that women have and 00:48:12.099 --> 00:48:15.166 they've expressed quite a bit throughout this process of not wanting to 00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:20.405 put people out. Yeah, yeah, I'm afraid to burden other people with your 00:48:20.438 --> 00:48:26.077 child or something doesn't seem like that's a factor. Oh no, 00:48:26.110 --> 00:48:31.247 I mean. It's just not. And maybe that works because I wasn't fully an 00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:34.206 adult when I left in that culture. Maybe there are things that I'm 00:48:34.239 --> 00:48:37.885 idealizing in my mind that I might not have understood as a child or 00:48:37.918 --> 00:48:42.967 adolescent. But it's just like when we'd make dinner, we always made extra 00:48:43.000 --> 00:48:46.046 because you never knew who was gonna come by. It was just expected and 00:48:46.079 --> 00:48:49.967 they wouldn't call. It's like you never say you should have called first, 00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:54.646 you know, like weddings, the invitations you send are just formalities. 00:48:54.679 --> 00:48:57.885 You send invitations to the really important people, but anyone who comes 00:48:57.918 --> 00:49:01.486 to a wedding or a funeral is not turned away, you just feed them, you know 00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:07.236 , it's just sort of expected, you know, um. And you know, you can have 00:49:07.269 --> 00:49:12.206 relatives stop by without having called first and stay for 4 days. Yeah, 00:49:12.239 --> 00:49:16.445 absolutely, you know, so you know it's kind of like different, you know, 00:49:16.478 --> 00:49:20.885 whereas here it's and so not really and I think there are some cultural 00:49:20.918 --> 00:49:26.206 blunders that I may not really understanding, you know, and um after 00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:29.396 making a few of those I just went the opposite extreme where I wasn't 00:49:29.429 --> 00:49:33.486 willing to try at all because I didn't want people to feel like I was 00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:37.195 overreaching or. 00:49:37.228 --> 00:49:41.267 It's funny. Mm. 00:49:41.300 --> 00:49:48.166 Like on your experience. No, with the two births, OK. I just want it to be 00:49:48.199 --> 00:49:51.876 expressed and I'm not actually passing wind, but my son is making crazy 00:49:51.909 --> 00:49:58.655 noises while I feed him. He's cracking himself up, you know, thinks he's 00:49:58.688 --> 00:50:02.675 being hilarious. I love it. 00:50:02.708 --> 00:50:05.967 Um 00:50:06.000 --> 00:50:09.727 Is there, you know, so we're asking because we're putting these separating 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:14.486 stories into the themes and, um, one theme that comes to mind with your 00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:19.967 story is like this idea of trust, you know, um, so is, can you reflect 00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:25.925 back on this, on your stories and if, if both births together or them 00:50:25.958 --> 00:50:31.365 separately and come up with, um, uh, you know, a series of words or a word 00:50:31.398 --> 00:50:39.106 that kind of reflects your experience. I would have to say, um. 00:50:39.139 --> 00:50:44.865 Giving birth to these children has really helped me give birth to myself 00:50:44.898 --> 00:50:51.026 as a woman because um that thing of wanting to always accommodate people 00:50:51.059 --> 00:50:57.517 is pretty much gone. It's just like It's almost like my give a darn is 00:50:57.550 --> 00:51:02.997 broken kind of thing, you know, and, um, and that needed to happen for me. 00:51:03.030 --> 00:51:08.135 So I think that. My my. 00:51:08.168 --> 00:51:12.456 My perspective and I don't know if it's fair for me to project this on all 00:51:12.489 --> 00:51:17.816 women, but I guess that you get the child that you need to grow and you 00:51:17.849 --> 00:51:23.497 get the birth experience that you need to grow into your womanhood fully, 00:51:23.530 --> 00:51:28.557 you know, and um and for women who choose not to. Birth biologically or 00:51:28.590 --> 00:51:33.396 have any children at all that that energy comes in another way whether it 00:51:33.429 --> 00:51:38.796 be through creative things or they have a project or they just become in 00:51:38.829 --> 00:51:42.646 service and become Mother Teresa or something. I mean they get the 00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:48.316 experience they need to expand, you know, and evolve uh on a spiritual 00:51:48.349 --> 00:51:53.037 level, you know, if you believe that and if not on a spiritual level, just 00:51:53.070 --> 00:51:58.345 from a psychological, it stretches you as a human being, you know. And so 00:51:58.378 --> 00:52:04.356 I needed to. You know, To really be able to say, you know what, I 00:52:04.389 --> 00:52:07.436 appreciate you sharing that perspective and I'll take it into 00:52:07.469 --> 00:52:11.115 consideration, but at the end of the day I'm gonna do it my way and your 00:52:11.148 --> 00:52:15.595 your perspective will be in consideration but doesn't necessarily mean 00:52:15.628 --> 00:52:20.316 that I'm gonna do what you think I should do, you know, um, and there were 00:52:20.349 --> 00:52:24.115 some areas in which I was good at that right away, like prenatally, like 00:52:24.148 --> 00:52:27.115 people telling me that I couldn't do this because I was too old and that I 00:52:27.148 --> 00:52:32.227 should just, you know, go and schedule a C-section and you know. People 00:52:32.260 --> 00:52:36.546 would say things like that to me or um what what I was doing was dangerous 00:52:36.579 --> 00:52:40.115 , um. 00:52:40.148 --> 00:52:43.717 Without necessarily having researched it, you know, it's one thing for 00:52:43.750 --> 00:52:46.916 midwife was telling me that what I'm doing is dangerous. It's another 00:52:46.949 --> 00:52:51.756 thing if someone who only knows about one way of birthing is telling me 00:52:51.789 --> 00:52:56.356 that what you're doing is dangerous, you know, and just respecting women's 00:52:56.389 --> 00:53:02.606 choices, you know, like. Yeah, I think I think learning about judgment as 00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:08.727 a parent, I think, and how women judge each other, you know, like people 00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:11.686 judge each other for going to the hospital and judge each other for 00:53:11.719 --> 00:53:15.727 staying at home and it's just so much judgment. It's just like really over 00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:20.526 something that is so special to every family it's like you should just be 00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:24.166 happy that they did something that they felt good about and where they 00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:29.856 felt safe and cared for and everything turned out OK and. All of that. No 00:53:29.889 --> 00:53:33.456 , I think that's great. You mentioned some issues with your pelvis or 00:53:33.489 --> 00:53:39.655 something before. Was that? It was just this oh, I had pelvic comfort, 00:53:39.688 --> 00:53:47.595 pelvic discomfort with um. With Caleb, but it was just uh, it was just the 00:53:47.628 --> 00:53:53.916 way he was positioned and but it went away after birth, birthing him and 00:53:53.949 --> 00:53:59.845 um. It was more discomfort, but it wasn't anything that was medically. Uh 00:53:59.878 --> 00:54:02.945 , 00:54:02.978 --> 00:54:07.517 Critical. I thought you'd mentioned some trauma before that I don't know 00:54:07.550 --> 00:54:14.356 if it would have impacted your Oh, it was um you know 00:54:14.389 --> 00:54:22.389 I, I was um sexually abused uh when I was a child and I, I think that 00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:31.046 emotionally, that set me up for always not trying to reach my full 00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:36.916 potential as a person and sort of worthlessness and. Um, periodic 00:54:36.949 --> 00:54:41.557 depression, which is another factor probably in the postpartum thing, like 00:54:41.590 --> 00:54:47.796 it took me to that place. Um, so I always have to work really hard because 00:54:47.829 --> 00:54:52.586 I've chosen not to go the medication route cause I don't want to be numb 00:54:52.619 --> 00:54:58.916 to my life or become dependent or stop trying, you know, even though I 00:54:58.949 --> 00:55:03.836 understand the value of medication, I I feel keenly aware that it would 00:55:03.869 --> 00:55:08.905 impact me negatively. So I, I manage my depression by exercising and 00:55:08.938 --> 00:55:14.905 eating right and spiritual life and so forth. And if I fall away from that 00:55:14.938 --> 00:55:20.756 for too long, which I did for like a year and a half, you know, then. Bad 00:55:20.789 --> 00:55:26.727 things happen, so. Um, 00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:30.727 Thank you for sharing with us and I really appreciate your honesty and 00:55:30.760 --> 00:55:35.166 it's been great. Well, I think it's important because there's someone else 00:55:35.199 --> 00:55:39.445 who who feels like they're by themselves and they're the weird freak and 00:55:39.478 --> 00:55:43.727 you know, it's just like, you know, if you have cancer, people wear a 00:55:43.760 --> 00:55:47.526 ribbon for you and they raise money for you, but if you have a mental 00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:53.905 illness of some sort, you know, you're a pariah. 00:55:53.938 --> 00:56:00.287 So if they can feel, hear someone else say, you know what? Yeah. And I 00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:05.445 think it's easy to um ignore shame a lot of the issues that transpire in 00:56:05.478 --> 00:56:08.646 the home, you know, between mother and their children because they're kind 00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:16.679 of out of, out of sight, it can be. You know, sequester. 00:56:17.688 --> 00:56:22.057 sit down. Sorry to interrupt your day. Oh, it's OK. I think he's warmed up 00:56:22.090 --> 00:56:24.438 to us though.