This is Forres Solis interviewing Eden Croft on August 17th at 10:30.
OK, we're ready. Do you want to hold this? Sure, OK. And you can hold it
in a way that's comfortable to you. Yeah.
Oh, you don't know in terms of sound that way. OK. OK. All right. Is it OK
to put my finger? I'm not putting my finger on something. I think you're
OK. OK. Yeah. Um, so can you take us back to as far back as the conception
of possible? Was it planned or oh, and you're welcome to talk about both
births. So if you want to start chronologically, but it's up to you if you
just want to talk about. OK, I'll do that. So basically, um, about 4.5
years ago, really maybe about 5.5 years ago, my husband and I had decided
that we were ready to have a child, but we were going to start in a year.
But um we ended up conceiving. A year earlier than we had planned. I had
been doing a lot of ceremony, some Native American ceremony, and I was
living in a spiritual center and I'd done a lot of work to heal my womb
from childhood trauma and so forth. So it just seemed like the time was
ready and um for for that seed to be planted and to grow and so it
happened. And uh it was very exciting. We're very excited about it. At the
time I was living. Really clean
Am I answering too much? OK.
So at the time I was living really clean, um, living in a small mountain
town 3 hours south of Phoenix in Arizona called Patagonia, population 900
and um really clean air. Um, I was eating like A predominantly raw food
diet. It was vegan and organic and a lot of things like fresh off the land
, and I was probably in the best health of my life. I even though I was 36
and considered advanced maternal age, um, I, I really was quite healthy
and I got a good go ahead from my midwife and my doctor to go ahead and
have a home birth and so. That's what we planned to do. At first I thought
I was going to just have a hospital birth because I had no knowledge of
what the hospital culture is like um in this country, in my country, you
can just go and have a natural birth at hospital, but apparently here you
can do that too it's just possibly a little more challenging. Can you tell
us some more about your background? because that sounds really fascinating
and like when you came to the states and where your husband's from or
where you met him.
I'm actually, uh, I was born in Zimbabwe and I lived there for the most
part with the exception of 3 years when my parents were going to uh
graduate school in the States. I lived there until I was about 19 and then
I came to the States to study, and I thought I'd just stay for 4 or 8
years and study work a bit and go home, but I ended up staying and getting
married and Uh, having children here. My husband, um, is an American
person and he, um. He's like one year younger than me, so we're about the
same age. He's originally from the Pacific Northwest, but he traveled a
lot when he was young because his parents were missionaries.
And um yeah, we, we met online on veggieDate.org
because at the time I was vegetarian, I was like, you know what, it might
be interesting to date another vegetarian guy cause I dated so many guys
who were, you know, eating meat and I don't have any sort of thoughts
about how people eat necessarily. Um, but you know I, I found that
sometimes it was a conflict, you know, in the relationship, especially if
they were trying to get me to eat meat. It's like, well, I'm not trying to
get you to become vegetarian. Why are you trying to get me to eat meat,
you know. And so I was like, oh, I'm done with this. Let me just at least
try this. And so I met him there. Yeah, and we, we were friends for a long
time and then we got together and got married. Great, um, OK, so. OK, so,
um, you're excited about the conception, and you have made some plans for
the birth. So can you maybe talk about that? Did you, um, go online and
find a midwife, or how, how did you think about it? Well, when it came to
the way we came to a home birth is we watched, like many people, the
business of being born on Netflix because as soon as you become pregnant,
you become infected with this desire to research and know everything. Well
, at least I did, I don't know. I am assuming though that the majority of
women also have the same experience. Um, so I went to Netflix and I
started looking at things and I came across the business of being born.
And uh my husband actually watched it with me, um, so it was easy. We both
were like right away, OK, I guess we're having a home birth then, you know.
And we live in a small town and there were no midwives in that town, but
we were an hour away from Tucson, which is a bigger city, uh, not huge,
but bigger than population 900. And we researched all the midwives in that
area and um I think I interviewed maybe 6. It may even have been 9, I
don't know. And it was the very last one that we interviewed that I liked
, which is I can't tell. I think I can't tell he's be upset about the
chicken, but he's like staring at the chicken and she's like walking back
and forth. It's chicken. click, click click, click, look. She's trying to
get into the house. Click, click, click, click, look. Does she come in
sometimes? All the time she sleeps in that cat carrier. Oh my God, that is
so cute. She wants to be pet every evening like yeah, she's a real pet. Oh
my God, but I'm not sure. My 4 year old would go wild.
Really looking now. OK, so are you comfortable? Yeah, because I can hold
it too. No, it's fine.
Um, so I guess going going back to the question of, oh yeah, OK.
OK. The bear. Look at all these. You can move as much as I can follow you around. OK.
Maybe there's the hum of the refrigerator there, so maybe you might have,
I don't know if you'd be able to edit that out. It's very kind.
Well, um, So, you wanna look in the mirror? Look in the mirror. Look,
she's got crystals. See crystals?
I said baby Caleb.
There he is. Look at my sons. Oh my gosh, it's so much neater than my
daughter's room. So much what? Neater than my daughter's room. It's
amazing because I thought we had the dirtiest bed. I don't know where the
fan is. This room might not be good because of the ceiling fan.
OK, so I'm sorry to keep interrupting. Oh, it's OK, um, so basically.
We, we, we went to a birth to the birth center in Tucson. We got a list of
midwives while we were there, um, because we opted out of the birth center
because it felt like they were too quick to to transfer you. And even
though we have a history of Easy births in my family. I just didn't know
what was going to happen because it's birth and you don't know what is
going to happen and you have to surrender and have humility and um you
know I'm totally grateful for hospitals and why they exist and so forth,
but um it was not my first choice for birthing for me and I didn't want to
be pushed into that situation. And thank goodness we we didn't choose the
birth center because I ended up having a really long labor, and I'm sure
they would have sent me there even though everything was OK. So anyway, so
that's how we chose, we chose our midwife. How was pregnancy for?
Pregnancy with my first child.
It's Chicken.
Pregnancy with my first child was a dream. It really was, um, I had high
energy, I had a great attitude. I had great support. I was living in
community. I was eating well, and a lot of fresh air, a lot of exercise,
yoga. Um, group meditations, like 4 or 5 times a week. Um, it was amazing.
You know, my second pregnancy was really difficult. Um, I had moved to
Phoenix. I was more socially isolated, um. I had a toddler, even though
Jubilee was easy in her first two years, like year 3 and 4 were really
challenging and I was having this crazy pregnancy and then on top of that
, it just felt like too much. My mom died when Jubilee was um Like 2
months old, you know, so I'd never really had time to grieve. We had to
leave Patagonia to come to Phoenix because it's a bigger job market and we
had to really start thinking about being financially secure instead of
having this bohemian lifestyle which was really gratifying on one level
but on a material level we really weren't making any money so we really
had to start looking at that sort of grown up stuff. With Caleb, um, how
was the physical experience? Was it, did you put on a lot of weight or
have water retention or all of that stuff that comes along with it? With
Jubilee, I put on 28 pounds. Um, I had no Difficulty really, not even
morning sickness, nothing except for feet swelling, you know, but that
wasn't even a big deal. I mean, I would drink a lot of cucumber juice and
the foot swelling would happen more like towards the end of the day, you
know, um, because I live in Arizona and I'm on my feet a lot and that just
runs in our family anyway, so it wasn't, you know, traumatic or anything.
I was still able to live my life. With Caleb, um, Even though I didn't
have any complications that would send me to a hospital or that were
alarming, I did have, um, I did have to really work on my iron levels more
than I did with Jubilee and um.
There was just, he was a bigger baby. He was like almost Jubilee was 5
pounds and 14 ounces, so she was only say a little bit under 6 pounds,
whereas Caleb was 8 pounds and 2 ounces, so he was just a bigger person
and I could feel it right away, um, just energetically he was a different
person, you know, than my daughter was and um. With Jubilee, I felt joyful
all the time and optimistic, whereas with him I was more introspective and
um I could say I was a little more driven with him than I was, but I was
also a lot grumpier in that pregnancy and um. Was he a planned birth? Um.
He was also planned. He, he was a planned birth, but he did come a few
months earlier than our original plan, you know. But that was OK. We knew
we wanted to have a second child and we knew we wanted to do it before I
turned 42 and we had him when I was 41. You know, um, so.
Yeah, our children were loosely planned, I'd say.
Um, we may want to separate the births out a little bit more, so instead
of going back and forth for the listener. So we might have to repeat what
I said but maybe when we talk about the um. Uh, Jubilee labor and delivery
and then post labor and delivery, and then we'll talk about Caleb's, yeah
, OK. So, um, with Jubilee, that's incredible. You only gained 20 pounds.
You sound like you had a great pregnancy. It was amazing. It was a dream
. I mean, I was just like, oh my God, this is amazing. I almost didn't
want to tell people how great I felt because I didn't want to, you know.
Like create weird feelings or you know disbelief. I was just like, oh,
I'm doing fine. You know, but
it's further away. Oh, OK, but um. OK, so yeah, that's really lucky and
then it set you up for. I know, right? I know. I mean, he was sitting so
low, you know, and I at the time we didn't have a second car, so I was
doing a lot of walking in Phoenix on the bus with a little stroller and
jubilee and it felt like, you know, really he was like hanging out in my
crotch like the whole time I was just walking like this. You know, it was
crazy, but I got through it and and the Braxton Hicks, the second time,
they started at 14 weeks and they were strong the whole time, you know. So
my midwife was like, Oh, so have you been having any practice contri I've
been having them the whole pregnancy. It's like, but um. But they weren't
actual, you know, labor contractions. They were just the very intense. I
guess they become more intense with progressive pregnancies, I hear. So
that was kind of uncomfortable and um. And were you working with the same
midwife? No, uh, I, when we moved to Phoenix, I got a different midwife.
Um, and I just loved her. She was, she was great. Um, so. Yeah, we had 2
different midwives in Arizona because we were 3 hours away from where our
first midwife was. So, OK, why don't we, um, go back to Jubilee's labor
delivery experience so maybe um. Talk about like how far along you were in
terms of your due date and then um like when you noticed contractions like
what the what you what the process was. OK, I'm just gonna walk this way.
So with Jubilee, I was um She was 10 days late, so I guess. Um, yeah, 10
days after the 40 week mark.
Was was when she came and so I was concerned that I might have to go to
the hospital and be induced because it was really kind of coming close to
that you know but um labor started. I was at um a spiritual ceremony we
were doing it was Friday night it was Shabbat and they were doing the sort
of beginning part and um. And one of my friends had told me that, you know
, when when your water breaks, you hear a sort of snap, like you can
almost hear it in your body, you know, um, and my mother had told me that
with both her labors, she, her water broke and then labor start. There was
like nothing before that, you know, so I heard that snap. And I was like,
but there was no water, so I was like, huh, OK, well, you know, because I
even went running out to the place where there was like bare floors so I
wouldn't mess up the carpet, you know, as soon as I heard that snap, but
nothing happened. I was like, OK, I probably just imagined it. And then my
midwife had told me she was like, you know, one of the signs that you're
in labor is that you might notice that your vision starts to become a
little bit more twinkly, like, you know, your vision changes. And I
noticed that my vision was becoming kind of, it was almost like dreamy. I
was like, OK, this is interesting. I heard a snap. My vision is dreamy,
and then a half hour later when I was sitting in meditation, I started to
feel contractions that felt like crampy, and this was the first time I'd
felt contractions that were crampy, so it made me think, hmm, you know,
this might be it, but I didn't want to get too excited, so I didn't say
anything. I just kind of sat through it and then an hour into it I was
like, OK, this is rhythmic and it's crampy. And it's time. So this must be
it. So, um, I called my husband to pick me up. I didn't want to take the
risk of walking home in case it became really intense walking home. Um,
and you know, he picked me up and uh we went home and we started timing
them and we were like, OK, this seems to be it. We called our midwife
because she was an hour away, so she really needed to have the notice. Um.
And I told her and she came down and everything was gentle and it was
proceeding and then, you know, after about I don't know, maybe about 8
hours. It just stopped, you know, so I went to sleep and it wasn't intense
at all, you know, I, I was expecting it to be just murder because I always
had really horrible periods that were like super intense like laying out
on the bed kind of thing. My husband was like, yeah, you've had far worse
periods than this, you know. So, um, so it stopped for about 6 or 7 hours
and then it started up again. And
I'll just take a break and walk over here.
So, um, one of the things we figured out was that
That my contractions would pick up. You know when we were alone and they
would slow down as soon as the midwives came. So eventually we had to sort
of shoo the midwives away, you know, and um and we took a walk, we went up
on the mesa and took a walk around the labyrinth and so forth and that
seemed to accelerate things and I had another friend who was a licensed
doula and she had started her midwifery training but had kind of stopped
when they moved out of state to come to Arizona. So she was kind of like
My friend You know, um, she was there for me more emotionally than the
midwife set. And so she kind of helped me find some positions that would
work and, uh, that seemed to really accelerate labor when I would
When I would squat during contractions, to kind of help bring things down.
But it was really gentle. I mean, I, I was smiling through contractions
the whole time and I think that helped me preserve my strength during 33
hours of labor. And also being able to eat and so forth, um. And I used to
laugh when I'd read birth stories of people sleeping between contractions.
I'm like, how could you do that? That doesn't make any sense. When you're
tired enough, that like 3 minutes is like, oh yeah, yeah, that was
refreshing. I would totally sleep towards the last 3 hours I was sleeping
between contractions.
Um, I'll wait till he.
trying to like yeah. Oh yeah, he does, he does.
I think I'm. No, no, it totally makes sense. I'm trying to get him to face
away from, you know, that's why I like the mirror cause he can just look
at the mirror. Um,
Oh, sweetie. Do you want to nurse a little bit? Maybe can I switch to
OK, it's recording, so I myself.
So, um. Yeah, so even, even the, the pushing process, it was only like
maybe half an hour and 3 little pushes. She crowned a little bit and then
, you know, and then the next push her whole body just shot out. Um. So it
wasn't um. It didn't feel, you know, traumatic, and a 33 hours sounds
terrible, but it wasn't intense. My mom. And her sisters and my
grandmother, they had really short intense labor. It's like 4 hours from
start to finish, including placenta out and um and my mom said it was so
intense that she didn't even have time to breathe between contractions.
She was like it was, it's I was expecting, you know, but it was really
gentle and and sweet and I think that helped me keep my energy up or else
I for sure probably would have gotten too tired or had to be transferred
or whatever.
They're
you know they would like go inward or you know, were you able to carry on
conversations and stuff or did you have, how did you get into the right
headspace to be able to make it through those 36 hours. I think that, um.
I just chose to tap into a joyful place, you know, and I just kind of
stayed there and I, I smiled a lot until like my body felt it, you know.
And um and another thing is that I just kind of Reached into certain
experiences that I'd had spiritually or for my yoga practice of surrender
and complete acceptance, like, you know. Like the divine feminine energy
is running this thing, you know, and like I'm participating in it. And yes
, I, I am, you know, co-creating in this experience, but at the end of the
day I'm not really fully in charge and just I just opened myself up to
that and allowed it to to govern, you know, and and and trusted that
intelligence that has birthed women for millennia, I mean people for
millennia, you know, through women. I just trusted that and I trusted that
like even if I ended up. With a C-section, that that that's what was, you
know, ordained for me and um yeah, I trusted that. I, I trusted my child.
I trusted myself. I trusted my body, um, I trusted my partner. Um, You
know, so I, I think just really kind of softening as opposed to stealing
myself into, you know, but just really softening into that space of
surrender. And honestly, I know this probably sounds a little woo woo, but
I felt like energetically it's almost like It comes from above and to your
head and it kind of spirals down and it spirals the baby out. So
everything I would do would be like moving my hips and circling and, you
know, just kind of feeling that. And that allowed me to I wasn't fighting
it, so I was able to preserve my strength. So it didn't feel like I was
fighting anything. Yeah. What was your husband's role? Well, um, his, oh
yeah, well, this is interesting. There were two roles. One of them we
actually fought about a little bit afterwards, but then in retrospect, he
was right, you know, but There was a time where one of my midwives was um.
Well, the main midwife really was really kind of concerned that. You know
, it was taking too long and I was going to get tired or I wasn't taking
this seriously, I wasn't doing enough work to open up, you know, and so
forth. And she was already starting to talk transfer. This is like maybe
1315 hours into the process. And so my husband was like, well you can't
tell her that. I'm not going to allow you to say that to her and I want
you to stay away until we call you, you know, and they had a knockout drag
out fight, you know, and I think my, after I learned about it after the
birth, I was like, you should have, it was my responsibility. You should
have let me have that fight and this and that and he was like, no, because
you know I don't know if that would have taken you out or not, and you had
other work to do and she was fussing too much about it. And um and I just
told her, give us a chance, give us until you know whatever clock he said
, and if things aren't moving by then, then we'll do it your way. And
things were moving by then because you know they left us alone. They gave
us more space and we were able to get into our groove. So good for him for
that. He, he played the protector role even though, you know, I, I went
back and forth about whether it was patronizing or whether it was actually
helpful, but, you know, years later I can look back and see that it was
appropriate, you know, that's what. He needed to do. He also played the
great role of me holding on to his waistband when I, when I needed to
squat and during contractions, you know, and he, I also was leaning
against him when I finally pushed Jubilee out. So he played that role and
kind of helped with clean up a bit and getting me food and stuff during
the. The process. Can you um talk about that actual moment where Jubilee
emerged into the world. Oh my gosh, well, um.
After 33 hours of labor, I just got to a point where I didn't believe I
would actually ever give birth. I just felt like I would be pregnant
forever and I would be birthing forever and it was just never gonna end.
And even when my midwife was like, OK, your baby's crowning, that's,
that's the head. give each time and feel the baby's head. I was just
rolling my eyes like, yeah, right, you know. Yeah, even though I felt a
baby's head, I just didn't believe that it was a baby's head. And so when
she came out and she came out so quickly. It was just shocking, I think I
was just shocked, you know, um. You know, It was just shocking and then on
top of that, she was really um I don't know if this sounds like a bad
thing to say, but she was really really fair, you know, and I was not
expecting that. I mean, my husband is white, so my children are biracial
and you know, African descent babies are usually born very light skinned,
but I was not expecting that. So that kind of took me aback for a minute.
Plus I was really tired, but I think that um. Once we You know, we, we,
we, we nursed and um it got me showered and cleaned up and in bed. We all
slept. I slept for like about 5 hours, both my husband and I, and when we
woke up and we looked at her, like all the love feelings just descended on
me and I was like, oh my God, she's so cute, she's here, you know, but at
the time it was, it was stunning. You know, I was just stunned. You know,
I was kind of stunned into motherhood. You know, um, so it took a few
hours and and a little sleep for me to recalibrate. Um, and, and, and make
that transition into mother.
How was um life at home afterwards? Were you nursing and sleeping at all?
Well, nursing was, was pretty easy. I mean, she lashed on right away. I
never had any issues. Um, I did have an issue a little bit with with her
preferring one breast over another, but I just didn't get into a thing
about it, and I just alternated and alternated and alternated until she
liked both breasts equally and um. And after about a week, I was
determined that I wanted Andrews to participate in it, so I would pump and
nurse at the same time because it would keep my supply up, and I felt like
I wanted him to participate, which was really frowned upon by several
people in my circle, but I was like, I don't care, this is what I'm doing
because you were introducing the model.
But um. And they were like, oh, it might, you know, nursing needs to be
established, but I was like, but it is established. She, she really is
nursing well and you know, and you know if I ever want a break, this is
going to be the way I get it, you know, and I feel like that's going to be
important for me, you know. Um, so yeah, we're nursing, she was sleeping
really well, like a champ, um. You know, there were no complications. You
didn't have jaundice or anything and. Um,
Community wise, um.
You know, I mean, people.
I don't know. I, coming from a different culture, the postpartum
experience was really different for me in this culture. Um, I, I know my,
my experience was compounded by the fact that I have no family in this
state, you know, um. And very little family in the country really or you
know I have a lot of cousins but they're in like North Carolina so
culturally we usually have about 30 days where the woman just lies in and
relatives cook and clean for her and you know she just nurses and you know
kind of rebuilds her strength, you know, and I really understand the value
of that now and not having had that, um, I really missed that. And made me
, you know, feel a little bit more homesick. And um, you know, my husband
was able to stay home for about. Oh, maybe 2 weeks, but then you had to go
back to work, you know. So, um, those 1st 2 weeks at home were quite
blissful. While there was a 4 day period where my in-laws came, that was
interesting, you know, um, because my relationship with them is not smooth
, but um. But I feel like it was necessary for them to bond with their
grandchild, um, in subsequent birth. I I chose to do it at a later time. I
was just like, you know what, at the end of the day, I'm the one, I think
I I deferred too much to pleasing other people, you know, I was still kind
of finding my way as a mother. And even though I felt confident, I, I
didn't want to offend people. I wanted to include people. I really wanted
community for my family and for my Child, and I felt like, you know, you
don't say you want community, but then act in a way that repels people. Um
, so I think I went too much the other way. You know, cause I didn't
understand why people here were so above boundaries with their babies and
so forth, but now that I've lived it, I understand why they're like that.
So I went the opposite extreme, you know, the next time around, but um.
But it was good, you know, I, I felt good. I felt strong, I felt capable.
I didn't have postpartum depression, thank God, um, at least with the
first one. And um.
You know, and she grew strong. She picked up weight really fast. She was
born in like probably like the 10th percentile or something like that, but
within 3 months, she was in like the 80th, 90th percentile, you know, so.
That's just how that worked. You can, um, maybe go into the second labor
delivery experience because I think we pretty much set it up in terms of
your pregnancy already. OK. So, and what made me preface it, so you plan
it at home with a different midwife and you know, kind of go from there
I don't want my husband.
I
So with the second pregnancy, um.
I had learned a lot from Jubilee's Labor and Delivery. I knew that um in
the midwife interviewing process, I would definitely prefer.
Someone who who knew what they were doing and who was experienced, um, but
who would give me space to do what I needed to do and not really be too.
Bossy or. I don't want to use the word bossy because I wouldn't say that
the other lady was bossy, but, um, who would give me space and trust me to
do what I needed to do and who wouldn't be freaked out if I was playing,
you know, crazy. Spiritual music or if I brought out a drum or, you know,
um, I mean they could be religious, but it couldn't be to the point that
it made me feel uncomfortable being myself. Um, and so the very first
midwife I interviewed.
Just made me feel right at home and at ease, and she'd been a sun dancer,
so she understood Native American. Ceremony. I think she also is Native
American. So it, it kind of, I knew that I could feel comfortable around
her in that in that way. So we went with her and she also seemed like she
really knew what was up. With everything and I think that I also felt. A
little bit let down in my postpartum care by my first midwife. So I was
really wanting someone who would be thorough about postpartum care given
that, you know, I don't have health insurance, I don't have family. I was
in a situation where I didn't really have a lot of friends because I'd
just been thrown knee-deep into baby. I just didn't take the time to
cultivate friendships when I moved to Phoenix, uh, the way I would have in
my old life, where I was always outgoing and doing stuff.
So.
Oh
So in any case, um, she assured me that it's OK. OK, so can you start from
that point? OK. Um, so anyway, basically I was sure that Shell would be an
amazing midwife, which she was. And um, and I think the second labor and
delivery, I, I just was kind of very practical about it, you know, I just
came at it sort of all business, you know. I had my um. My, you know, my,
uh, spirit dance songs and my, you know, chanting music set up and um I
was lying in bed. The last prenatal I had had a few days before.
Said that um. My midwife had warned me that I might have um a posterior
facing baby, which means back labor. I was kind of like surrendered to the
possibility of what that might mean, um, even though I hadn't experienced
it, but to just be ready for that and I was at peace with that and you
know that night I Right before I went to bed, I went to bed at 12:30
because I stayed up late watching a stupid movie, you know,
and um before I went to bed, I was like, OK, you know what, I trust you to
get in the right position for your birth, little guy or little girl, you
know, and um and I trust that whatever happens, you know, we'll just,
we'll just get it done, you know. And I literally felt like a lot of
turning, not right that moment, but I had been saying that mantra since
she had told me that each night before I went to bed. But that night I
felt a lot of turning like it almost felt like he was getting into
position because he was already head down, so I was like, you're dancing a
lot. I don't know what kind of turning you're doing, but whatever, you
know, and then. At around 1:30 I started having cramps. You know, I kind
of was woken up with a crampy feeling and I was like, oh, and it was right
on my due date too. And I was like, huh, I don't know, this could be it,
but I'll just lay here for an hour and if it continues for an hour, then
I'll wake and rose up. And sure enough, it continued for an hour and it
was rhythmic, you know. So I was like, OK, well this is it. So I was like
, OK, wake up, you know, we're in labor, and I knew he believed me because
he started working on the list that I had given him weeks before of all
the little things around the house that needed to be done before the baby
came. He started doing that, doing that shit right then. I'm like, OK,
yeah. You know, and um. I put together some kind of like I, I had some
lima beans soaked and so I put together some kind of stew that the
midwives could eat. I wasn't even thinking clearly because by the time it
was ready, it was time for breakfast, so it wasn't really a good breakfast
meal, but that's what I had to make. So I put that together while I was
still feeling good and energetic and um my midwife had told me to make
sure you eat something a little bit and drink something and take these
herbs, you know, so I ate and drank and Took the little herbs and um. And
then it started picking up and honestly it was picking up much faster than
Jubilee labor. Um, it was a little bit more intense but still nothing I
couldn't handle. I just had, we had gotten a big double stroller, so you
know those things can be really sturdy. So that's what I leaned on, you
know, to do my squatting stuff during labor while my husband, you know,
cleaned up a little bit and did stuff around the house, um. And I just
kind of got on with it, you know, um, and then I didn't call my midwife
until about 4.
Sorry.
Until about 4 or 5 hours into it because I, I didn't want a whole bunch of
people there. So I called her and I said, you know, you don't have to come
now. I'm just giving you a heads up so you guys can get your babysitters
or whatever, you know, you need to get prepared, um. And I also didn't
want her to come. Right away because it was the middle of the night and I
always feel bad about calling people in the middle of the night. I mean, I
know it's their job, but you know, if they can get more sleep, then why
should they be there not sleeping, watching me do stuff I can do by myself
, you know. Yes,
I, there was that because they kept telling me, oh, it won't be as long as
the first one. I was just like, oh, I don't know, it might, you know. So I
was just like I didn't want to drag anyone out for that. So And I called
her and I told her and then 2 hours later I was like, OK, you probably, I
think I'm heading towards transition. I could feel my body was like really
close to the transition point. So I was like, you know, you probably have
about 2 hours, 2 or 3 hours. And um and I was right, you know, and by the
time they came, I think I birthed maybe an hour and a half later or
something like that. And And at that point it was really, really intense.
Like it was like what my mom described. Like I couldn't even breathe
between contractions. The contractions just felt like they were rolling
into each other, you know, and I didn't even push him out. You know, I was
surprised, you know, when he was crowning and he was, you know, I kept
waiting for that urge to push. It never came. My body just sort of pushed
him out. So it was like that intense towards the end, um, but I think I
never freaked out and I was able to stay centered, but with him I was in a
much more practical space. I never really went to a fully like spiritual
ecstatic place like I did with Jubilee. um, and when he was born, I was
fully alert and awake. It was about.
Ah, it was in the morning. And um let me see, 1:30, it was like 9:05 or
something like that and um. Yeah, I was fully awake and I I was able to
appreciate him right away and, you know, and feel the love right away and.
Yeah. And this time, the, the first time like the the midwife had just
left almost right away. But this time they stayed for 2 hours and they
checked me and I had tour with the second one. So they stitched me up and
made sure everything was good. How is that? Because it never even occurred
to you that you're not. Are you giving numbing agents when they're doing
that in the home? They do, they do give you numbing agents. I didn't feel
it at all, except for one little spot. It was like a little uh anesthetic
spray. I guess she sprayed on there, because that had been something I
thought about like, oh, that's gonna hurt, but yeah, it was no big deal.
So why don't we talk about after that on the post. Um, I think that I, I
was able to recover much stronger and much more quickly with Caleb than I
was with Jubilee because I didn't really allow any visitors until I think
we had our first visitor. I think he was about 7 weeks. It was his parents
and uh my best friend had offered to come but I I just really, I didn't
even allow that because I felt like it would end up becoming about
entertaining her family, even if she was coming to help. I just, I wasn't
going to do that again, you know, um, and I wanted time to rest and be in
my pajamas and not worry about the state of the house and worry about what
people are eating and you know that kind of thing, um. And he had a little
bit of jaundice, but it wasn't a big deal. We just kind of sat with him
outside a little bit, um, and he nursed like a champ too right away and
slept really well. He was a really good sleeper, um, so there weren't
really too many issues, um. Did you say you suffered from some depression
? Yes, uh, not right away, but I, I'd say that starting into like about 6
months into the process, I started to feel, you know, some depression, and
it took several months for me to realize that it was postpartum depression
, like when it got to the really, really bad place. Um, I never felt like
hurting my child or my children, thank goodness, but I did have really
dark feelings like even of suicide, you know. Um, and so. I called my
midwife at that point. I was like, remember in the postpartum manual,
which I don't have anymore. You had some kind of. Group at a hospital that
I could reach out to and you know and so she was like, oh well I'm
referring to another place now, whatever. Anyway, I ended up finding a
therapist on my own and that really helped, but um yeah I mean I really I
really suffered a lot with that and um consequently my friend and I want
to do.
Something for to help postpartum women, you know, just to. To help them
feel not alone, but I think in my case it was multifactorial. I wasn't
eating as well, you know, um, I started eating a little bit more processed
food just because it was easier with the overwhelm and everything and um I
wasn't exercising as much. I mean I walk around with these guys a lot and
on my back and so forth, but I wasn't consciously exercising like I had
been doing that before um I stopped calling my friends. I You know, I'd
meet other moms sometimes and we'd exchange cards, but I never call them
because I felt like, you know what, this is not a good time in my life to
start a friendship. I'm just gonna be a flake, you know, um, I have too
much to do. I'm doing it by myself.
Yeah.
And, um.
And um you know I I just, yeah. So I think it was the isolation, the lack
of support, and I wasn't doing things to cultivate my own interests as
much, you know, um, I didn't have time to work on my own business and my
own ideas and you know I've always been a creative person and That way. It
was just too much. It was just too many. It wasn't just the hormonal piece.
It was everything together, and I think that took me to that spark. So as
soon as I started seeing the therapist, that shifted things and um. You
know, Yeah. So that there were a lot of different things that that helped
to shift things, but. It's very easy to to to fall down into that hole and
I, I feel. You know, so much compassion for women in this culture who. Who
get to that place and don't have support, you know. So in Zimbabwe, did
you feel that there was more community built up around women with newborns
? Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, there's the extended family and there's
just a sort of um. There's no, I don't even think that like babysitting is
a thing. It's like you could never make money with that. It's just like,
what? Just give it tell the auntie to come watch your baby, you know. What
are you talking about babysitting, you know, um, it's just not even a
thing, you know. There's always cousins, there's always, you know, um, and
you just kind of grow up with other kids where you're I mean it's just so
communal that that would never be a thing, you know, um. The hormonal
piece might be something, and that might be difficult for someone who had
the hormonal piece because people aren't necessarily used to that, so they
wouldn't understand it and they wouldn't have the language around it.
Whereas here you get a lot of support around the hormonal part, but not
the other part, and I think it's really a Multifactorial thing. And people
have isolated into this like, you need medication. It's like you need
medication and family and purpose, and you need to take care of your body
and you know, you need all kinds of things, um. You know, oh, lack of
sleep. Did I mention that? I think also, um, I don't know if it's a
cultural thing in America, but there's this sense that women have and
they've expressed quite a bit throughout this process of not wanting to
put people out. Yeah, yeah, I'm afraid to burden other people with your
child or something doesn't seem like that's a factor. Oh no,
I mean. It's just not. And maybe that works because I wasn't fully an
adult when I left in that culture. Maybe there are things that I'm
idealizing in my mind that I might not have understood as a child or
adolescent. But it's just like when we'd make dinner, we always made extra
because you never knew who was gonna come by. It was just expected and
they wouldn't call. It's like you never say you should have called first,
you know, like weddings, the invitations you send are just formalities.
You send invitations to the really important people, but anyone who comes
to a wedding or a funeral is not turned away, you just feed them, you know
, it's just sort of expected, you know, um. And you know, you can have
relatives stop by without having called first and stay for 4 days. Yeah,
absolutely, you know, so you know it's kind of like different, you know,
whereas here it's and so not really and I think there are some cultural
blunders that I may not really understanding, you know, and um after
making a few of those I just went the opposite extreme where I wasn't
willing to try at all because I didn't want people to feel like I was
overreaching or.
It's funny. Mm.
Like on your experience. No, with the two births, OK. I just want it to be
expressed and I'm not actually passing wind, but my son is making crazy
noises while I feed him. He's cracking himself up, you know, thinks he's
being hilarious. I love it.
Um
Is there, you know, so we're asking because we're putting these separating
stories into the themes and, um, one theme that comes to mind with your
story is like this idea of trust, you know, um, so is, can you reflect
back on this, on your stories and if, if both births together or them
separately and come up with, um, uh, you know, a series of words or a word
that kind of reflects your experience. I would have to say, um.
Giving birth to these children has really helped me give birth to myself
as a woman because um that thing of wanting to always accommodate people
is pretty much gone. It's just like It's almost like my give a darn is
broken kind of thing, you know, and, um, and that needed to happen for me.
So I think that. My my.
My perspective and I don't know if it's fair for me to project this on all
women, but I guess that you get the child that you need to grow and you
get the birth experience that you need to grow into your womanhood fully,
you know, and um and for women who choose not to. Birth biologically or
have any children at all that that energy comes in another way whether it
be through creative things or they have a project or they just become in
service and become Mother Teresa or something. I mean they get the
experience they need to expand, you know, and evolve uh on a spiritual
level, you know, if you believe that and if not on a spiritual level, just
from a psychological, it stretches you as a human being, you know. And so
I needed to. You know, To really be able to say, you know what, I
appreciate you sharing that perspective and I'll take it into
consideration, but at the end of the day I'm gonna do it my way and your
your perspective will be in consideration but doesn't necessarily mean
that I'm gonna do what you think I should do, you know, um, and there were
some areas in which I was good at that right away, like prenatally, like
people telling me that I couldn't do this because I was too old and that I
should just, you know, go and schedule a C-section and you know. People
would say things like that to me or um what what I was doing was dangerous
, um.
Without necessarily having researched it, you know, it's one thing for
midwife was telling me that what I'm doing is dangerous. It's another
thing if someone who only knows about one way of birthing is telling me
that what you're doing is dangerous, you know, and just respecting women's
choices, you know, like. Yeah, I think I think learning about judgment as
a parent, I think, and how women judge each other, you know, like people
judge each other for going to the hospital and judge each other for
staying at home and it's just so much judgment. It's just like really over
something that is so special to every family it's like you should just be
happy that they did something that they felt good about and where they
felt safe and cared for and everything turned out OK and. All of that. No
, I think that's great. You mentioned some issues with your pelvis or
something before. Was that? It was just this oh, I had pelvic comfort,
pelvic discomfort with um. With Caleb, but it was just uh, it was just the
way he was positioned and but it went away after birth, birthing him and
um. It was more discomfort, but it wasn't anything that was medically. Uh
,
Critical. I thought you'd mentioned some trauma before that I don't know
if it would have impacted your Oh, it was um you know
I, I was um sexually abused uh when I was a child and I, I think that
emotionally, that set me up for always not trying to reach my full
potential as a person and sort of worthlessness and. Um, periodic
depression, which is another factor probably in the postpartum thing, like
it took me to that place. Um, so I always have to work really hard because
I've chosen not to go the medication route cause I don't want to be numb
to my life or become dependent or stop trying, you know, even though I
understand the value of medication, I I feel keenly aware that it would
impact me negatively. So I, I manage my depression by exercising and
eating right and spiritual life and so forth. And if I fall away from that
for too long, which I did for like a year and a half, you know, then. Bad
things happen, so. Um,
Thank you for sharing with us and I really appreciate your honesty and
it's been great. Well, I think it's important because there's someone else
who who feels like they're by themselves and they're the weird freak and
you know, it's just like, you know, if you have cancer, people wear a
ribbon for you and they raise money for you, but if you have a mental
illness of some sort, you know, you're a pariah.
So if they can feel, hear someone else say, you know what? Yeah. And I
think it's easy to um ignore shame a lot of the issues that transpire in
the home, you know, between mother and their children because they're kind
of out of, out of sight, it can be. You know, sequester.
sit down. Sorry to interrupt your day. Oh, it's OK. I think he's warmed up
to us though.