WEBVTT 00:00:00.159 --> 00:00:03.765 All right. This is Boris Solis interviewing Nicola Haller for the 00:00:03.798 --> 00:00:10.927 Creative Pish Project on September 13th at 3:17. All right. So maybe take 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:17.887 us, set us up. Where did you, where were you? Were you in Germany? I was 00:00:17.920 --> 00:00:24.445 right here in Phoenix and talk about the conception. Was it planned? Was 00:00:24.478 --> 00:00:27.785 it a hot summer? 00:00:27.818 --> 00:00:30.326 The music playing 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:34.686 Well, I think the conception probably happened. I'm pretty sure it 00:00:34.719 --> 00:00:40.125 happened in San Francisco when I was coming back from a month in Europe, 00:00:40.158 --> 00:00:48.158 uh, visiting my family. And um I met my guy in San Francisco because my 00:00:48.228 --> 00:00:52.156 plane was going through there. And so I thought that would be a great time 00:00:52.189 --> 00:01:00.189 to take a vacation. And um I had always wanted a child and we actually had 00:01:00.389 --> 00:01:04.956 sort of a scare, like a pregnancy scare very early on in our relationship 00:01:04.989 --> 00:01:11.397 , but during which he proved himself, you know, by immediately being 00:01:11.430 --> 00:01:14.876 willing to step up to the plate. That turned out not even to be a 00:01:14.909 --> 00:01:20.507 pregnancy. So, um, you know, I kind of knew that 00:01:20.540 --> 00:01:27.855 He would be OK with everything, um, but we weren't trying to have a baby 00:01:27.888 --> 00:01:33.867 at the time. It just sort of happened. Um, and then when I found out we 00:01:33.900 --> 00:01:38.305 were actually both in the bathroom, you know, doing the test and um we 00:01:38.338 --> 00:01:42.346 were both like ridiculously excited. It was at his grandparents' house up 00:01:42.379 --> 00:01:49.456 in um in Northern Arizona. And um so we're both super excited about it, 00:01:49.489 --> 00:01:57.376 super happy about it the entire time. Um, pregnancy was actually pretty 00:01:57.409 --> 00:02:03.495 easy. Um, I lucked out, you know. Um, I think I was maybe sick just a 00:02:03.528 --> 00:02:08.767 little bit for two weeks, but it wasn't, you know, I had a good friend 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:12.577 that was sick for a whole year and she couldn't keep anything down and I 00:02:12.610 --> 00:02:15.577 didn't have any of that. It was kind of like the perfect pregnancy in a 00:02:15.610 --> 00:02:19.207 way. Um, 00:02:19.240 --> 00:02:22.066 But 00:02:22.099 --> 00:02:27.585 Birth was not as you know as I planned. Can you do me a favor and 00:02:27.618 --> 00:02:31.816 elaborate a little bit more on the pregnancy? Did you 00:02:31.849 --> 00:02:36.916 did you put on a lot of weight? What was your you still working? 00:02:36.949 --> 00:02:42.525 How were you emotionally? Yeah, I got a job because you know when when I 00:02:42.558 --> 00:02:46.055 had gone to Europe, I had quit my job, which was a very high pressure 00:02:46.088 --> 00:02:51.755 management job. I came back, didn't know I was pregnant yet. Um, got a new 00:02:51.788 --> 00:02:59.085 job at just at a resale clothing store, which was kind of hip. And um and 00:02:59.118 --> 00:03:01.606 that was really fun. I had a lot of fun, you know, worked with a lot of 00:03:01.639 --> 00:03:07.596 really great people, found out I was pregnant and was working. Oh gosh, I 00:03:07.629 --> 00:03:11.436 can't remember. I think I was working close to full time the whole time 00:03:11.469 --> 00:03:18.356 and um I did gain a ton of weight when I was pregnant. Um, it actually 00:03:18.389 --> 00:03:22.696 ended up looking like as if I was if I was wearing, as if I was carrying 00:03:22.729 --> 00:03:27.487 twins because I gained, I think it was mostly water weight, you know, and 00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:32.677 , um, but you know, blood pressure went up a little bit, but nothing out 00:03:32.710 --> 00:03:39.755 of the Ordinary, like all the health checks came back normal and 00:03:39.788 --> 00:03:46.457 emotionally I was just super happy to be pregnant, to be expecting a child 00:03:46.490 --> 00:03:54.490 um and um Felt really connected to, you know, Max as he was in my womb, 00:03:55.000 --> 00:03:58.866 and I felt, yeah, everything was really great and. A little bit more 00:03:58.899 --> 00:04:02.066 sensitive, but it wasn't. 00:04:02.099 --> 00:04:07.797 An emotional roller coaster really. I think the last month. It was really 00:04:07.830 --> 00:04:11.077 tough. Last couple of months, it kind of started changing a little bit as 00:04:11.110 --> 00:04:17.236 it got closer to birth. I started getting pretty nervous, um, just about 00:04:17.269 --> 00:04:23.955 the idea of, you know, Pushing out this bowling ball, you know, I mean, 00:04:23.988 --> 00:04:26.765 just when you visualizing, 00:04:26.798 --> 00:04:31.846 you know, um. Pushing something that big out of your body, you know, it's 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:36.697 , it's just unfathomable and, and you, and then you, of course, you know, 00:04:36.730 --> 00:04:41.616 you read all the stories, the good and the bad and Um, and there's a lot 00:04:41.649 --> 00:04:45.817 of like kind of shoulds and shouldn'ts that you have to think about, you 00:04:45.850 --> 00:04:50.286 know, do I wanna. Take medication? Do I want this to be natural, you know 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:53.887 , how is this going to work? Is there going to be an emergency? Am I going 00:04:53.920 --> 00:05:01.286 to live through it? And um so a lot of anxiety came up at the end and Max 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:06.586 was, well, I don't know if I should say, say his name. Yeah, OK. Um, And 00:05:06.619 --> 00:05:14.236 uh Max was by my calculations overdue. Um, but in retrospect, I think I 00:05:14.269 --> 00:05:16.276 miscalculated 00:05:16.309 --> 00:05:20.067 when I actually got pregnant because according to the ultrasound, he still 00:05:20.100 --> 00:05:25.437 had like a whole month. So I thought he was like 3 weeks overdue, and they 00:05:25.470 --> 00:05:30.437 were monitoring me like the last 3 weeks I had to go in um to the birthing 00:05:30.470 --> 00:05:35.877 center every day to get monitored and make sure that fetus was healthy and 00:05:35.910 --> 00:05:42.726 placenta was still viable and all that stuff. Um. But when he, you know, 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:48.486 finally came out, he actually wasn't, he didn't show any signs of being in 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:51.967 there too long. And so I think that I may have been wrong and just me 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:56.805 being a control freak kind of, um, you know, I should have just trusted 00:05:56.838 --> 00:06:00.205 the ultrasound. I should have trusted the doctor, but I always felt like, 00:06:00.238 --> 00:06:08.238 I know it was full moon and you know, um. So, um, so he wasn't premature 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:13.687 though either. He was like exactly what they were. I think that maybe he 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:19.437 arrived a couple of days before he should have, you know, um, but I don't 00:06:19.470 --> 00:06:23.127 think he was ready to come out, and that was the key thing because they 00:06:23.160 --> 00:06:26.687 thought, well, I thought he was 3 weeks overdue. And so they kind of were 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.606 like, Well, yeah, OK, we'll go with that. And they were monitoring me and 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:33.705 then finally they were like, well, since there is a possibility that he's 00:06:33.738 --> 00:06:39.757 been in there so long, we need to induce you. So initially I had Like I 00:06:39.790 --> 00:06:45.786 was going to a birthing center. I had a natural birthing plan in mind, and 00:06:45.819 --> 00:06:50.947 you know I had a midwife that I really, really loved and that was awesome 00:06:50.980 --> 00:06:55.036 and um you know we thought we were going to do this whole thing naturally 00:06:55.069 --> 00:07:00.156 like water birth in the birthing center and everything. And then um you 00:07:00.189 --> 00:07:04.455 know, but then the 3 weeks. They started monitoring and everything and 00:07:04.488 --> 00:07:08.937 they were like, well, I think it would be safer if we induced you and you 00:07:08.970 --> 00:07:12.817 went and had this baby in the hospital, which was just down the road, just 00:07:12.850 --> 00:07:18.627 in case. He was really overdue and there was going to be a problem. And so 00:07:18.660 --> 00:07:24.346 I was like, OK, let's do that. I feel safer with that too. And um and so 00:07:24.379 --> 00:07:32.379 they induced. And um. Inducing makes labor much, much harder, you know, 00:07:32.528 --> 00:07:36.127 like the first one that they. 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:39.036 I can't remember what it's called. Like the first one they put you in your 00:07:39.069 --> 00:07:43.317 vagina. It's like a little, is it a Foley ball? Is it really a ball that 00:07:43.350 --> 00:07:48.075 inflates or is it like a pill? It's it's like a what you call that? I know 00:07:48.108 --> 00:07:50.637 the word in German. 00:07:50.670 --> 00:07:55.575 It's like medication, uh it's tan. They, they put up, you know, it's like 00:07:55.608 --> 00:08:02.616 a little, yeah, yeah, they put like medication. Into you per suppository 00:08:02.649 --> 00:08:06.757 that's supposed to, has that hormone. It's not pitocin, but it's somewhat 00:08:06.790 --> 00:08:13.055 similar, that's supposed to kind of slowly activate labor. That didn't 00:08:13.088 --> 00:08:19.015 work. 12 hours, nothing. And um but that 12 hours I was already in the 00:08:19.048 --> 00:08:25.055 hospital, so nothing for 12 hours and I was in there. And then, um, and 00:08:25.088 --> 00:08:29.656 then they started the Pitocin through drip, and that was pretty crazy 00:08:29.689 --> 00:08:35.936 because it monitors, it monitors um. How strong your contractions are and 00:08:35.969 --> 00:08:39.736 how often your contractions are, so you don't have like sort of a natural 00:08:39.769 --> 00:08:46.755 progression that your body would normally have. And um So, and I wasn't 00:08:46.788 --> 00:08:51.236 even dilated yet. So we were like, I don't remember how this whole how 00:08:51.269 --> 00:08:55.875 long this whole thing even happened, but. They were like, No, I didn't 00:08:55.908 --> 00:08:59.797 want an epidural and I didn't want drugs. And but then by that time I had 00:08:59.830 --> 00:09:03.875 been like, I think by the time I was like 8 centimeters dilated, which 00:09:03.908 --> 00:09:09.645 took forever. Like, I don't know if it was like maybe 24 hours already. I 00:09:09.678 --> 00:09:15.047 mean, it was like a long time um of pain and contractions and everything 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:18.525 and I was like super exhausted, no sleep, and finally I was just like, 00:09:18.558 --> 00:09:23.287 give me the drugs. And and then they like gave me first, but they cause 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:26.196 they were like, you know, we don't know, you're not dilated enough for the 00:09:26.229 --> 00:09:30.246 epidural yet, so we're gonna give you this other drug and it was, you know 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:35.696 , some kind of Downer, some some something that makes you get all loopy 00:09:35.729 --> 00:09:39.967 and out of it, so I took that and I don't remember what it was, but. I 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:45.736 actually got some sleep, which was nice, you know, um, but then. But then 00:09:45.769 --> 00:09:49.885 it caused Max to go into distress. It caused his heart rate to slow, you 00:09:49.918 --> 00:09:54.047 know, because it was like a downer drug. And then um and then finally at 8 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:57.775 centimeters, it was like nothing was working and I was like, I can't 00:09:57.808 --> 00:10:01.057 handle the pain anymore. I'm too exhausted. So I was like, Give me the 00:10:01.090 --> 00:10:04.177 damn epidural. Give it, give it to me, you know. And they were like, Well 00:10:04.210 --> 00:10:06.856 , it's kind of on borderline being too late. And I was like, I don't care 00:10:06.889 --> 00:10:11.456 , give it to me, you know. So it was too soon. And then it was almost too 00:10:11.489 --> 00:10:15.846 late. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, you guys got to be kidding me. And my 00:10:15.879 --> 00:10:23.196 midwife also wasn't there because she had taken a vacation, um, you know, 00:10:23.229 --> 00:10:26.936 because Max was officially 3 weeks late and she had already made plans for 00:10:26.969 --> 00:10:30.537 a vacation because she thought that Max would already be there, you know. 00:10:30.570 --> 00:10:36.566 And so she wasn't there and I, the doctor that was going to be delivering. 00:10:36.599 --> 00:10:39.686 He was part of that birthing center. He was kind of like the doctor that 00:10:39.719 --> 00:10:44.736 oversees everything and I liked him a lot, but he wasn't my first choice. 00:10:44.769 --> 00:10:47.986 And he wasn't even there yet, you know, so it was just a nurse from the 00:10:48.019 --> 00:10:53.946 hospital and um whichever other doctors were there. And so I finally I got 00:10:53.979 --> 00:10:58.066 the epidural and um it was kind of funny, you know, because they make you 00:10:58.099 --> 00:11:03.186 like ball up really tight into a ball and, and you can't move. And I'm 00:11:03.219 --> 00:11:08.076 like, and I didn't really feel it go in or anything because they put a 00:11:08.109 --> 00:11:13.797 numbing agent on you first. Um, but, but my, um, you know, but the father 00:11:13.830 --> 00:11:18.515 , who is now my ex, he um, he was holding me tight. And finally the nurse 00:11:18.548 --> 00:11:23.476 , I just heard the nurse say, Sir, I, I need you to go over here and sit 00:11:23.509 --> 00:11:26.677 down because I guess he was green in the face when he, when he saw the 00:11:26.710 --> 00:11:29.996 needle, like he almost passed out and he wasn't gonna be able to hold me 00:11:30.029 --> 00:11:33.917 because it's so huge. And uh so I thought that was kind of, you know, 00:11:33.950 --> 00:11:38.967 funny. And um and then you know I got the epidural and you know that kind 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:43.196 of helped. I think I got some more sleep and then finally it was like it 00:11:43.229 --> 00:11:50.106 was fully starting and it was time to push. And then, um. I think it was 00:11:50.139 --> 00:11:58.139 like 3.5 hours of pushing. Which was just insane, you know, and I, I kept 00:11:58.918 --> 00:12:05.287 remembering like. Um, thinking. You know, when it was just like really, 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:09.287 really bad during the pushing, I remember just saying to the nurse, you 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:13.167 know, it's totally just delirious, and I remember saying to the nurse, can 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:18.645 I, can I just go home and, and do this later? You know, uh, cause in my 00:12:18.678 --> 00:12:23.505 life I've always had the option, you know, like probably most people, you 00:12:23.538 --> 00:12:27.606 always kind of have an option to kind of like quit this job or I can just 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:31.547 stay home from school today or I can kind of slack on this or. And so in 00:12:31.580 --> 00:12:36.346 my mind, I just thought irrationally that I could get out of this somehow 00:12:36.379 --> 00:12:40.826 and just revisit it later. And for the first time in my life, there was 00:12:40.859 --> 00:12:48.366 like this just clarity that came that was like. Your body doesn't care 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:53.326 what you think. Like you are on this ride and you're not getting off until 00:12:53.359 --> 00:12:58.657 it's done, and you have no choice in the matter. Your body is just doing 00:12:58.690 --> 00:13:04.895 this, you know, and, um. I can honestly say like in my life that was a 00:13:04.928 --> 00:13:10.895 pivotal moment. And even though it was horrible. 00:13:10.928 --> 00:13:14.336 You know, um. 00:13:14.369 --> 00:13:21.765 In retrospect, it was the greatest experience of my life. Coming to that 00:13:21.798 --> 00:13:27.086 realization because ever since then. I think it actually prepared me for 00:13:27.119 --> 00:13:31.927 having a child, having that moment, because there's so many times I could 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:36.366 have bailed. There's so many times that, you know, like I think birth is 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:39.606 really hard and it's like probably the rawest thing you can ever do in 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:45.596 life, but I don't think it even compares to like what motherhood is and 00:13:45.629 --> 00:13:50.307 the sacrifices that you make and willingly. 00:13:50.340 --> 00:13:53.717 So maybe it's like, I don't know, if you look at it from like a spiritual 00:13:53.750 --> 00:13:57.186 way or something, maybe it's like nature's way of like preparing yourself 00:13:57.219 --> 00:14:04.297 for a really tough job. You know, and so anyway, um. 00:14:04.330 --> 00:14:10.287 So kind of like digressing back to that moment, you know, and then. 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.486 Shortly after that, they were talking about, OK, we need to maybe use 00:14:13.519 --> 00:14:19.586 forceps now because he just wasn't coming out properly and at some point 00:14:19.619 --> 00:14:24.125 they realized that the cord was wrapped around his, not around his neck, 00:14:24.158 --> 00:14:30.307 around his arm. And um And so that's why he was failing, you know, like 00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:34.625 his blood pressure was down, they were worried it was. Kind of too late 00:14:34.658 --> 00:14:40.186 for them to go in and open me up. And so they were like, OK, we needed to 00:14:40.219 --> 00:14:45.586 use forceps maybe. And I was like, Hell no. I am pushing this sucker out. 00:14:45.619 --> 00:14:50.446 And and and then the doctor actually finally arrived and helped me like 00:14:50.479 --> 00:14:57.505 he pushed down on my belly while I was pushing to help push him out and 00:14:57.538 --> 00:15:02.846 all of a sudden he was out, you know, and then um And then it was really 00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:07.287 tough, um, because you know Max came out and he wasn't breathing and he 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:13.446 was blue and um and they had to, I mean, I just, you know, I was over here 00:15:13.479 --> 00:15:16.807 and they were over on the far side of the room and I kept kind of like 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.206 looking over and looking over and what the hell's going on? And I just saw 00:15:20.239 --> 00:15:23.446 him like smacking him like on the front, turning him over, smacking him on 00:15:23.479 --> 00:15:27.645 the back and just kept like suctioning him, smacking him, you know, to try 00:15:27.678 --> 00:15:32.927 and get him to to. Cause I guess he'd swallowed a lot of that meconium 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:36.186 stuff and they were just trying to clear his lungs and get him to breathe 00:15:36.219 --> 00:15:44.219 and, you know, and he almost died. So, um. 00:15:45.058 --> 00:15:50.015 It was really tough, really tough, um. 00:15:50.048 --> 00:15:55.265 So, but, you know, he made it through and they um. 00:15:55.298 --> 00:15:59.755 They got him, you know, they got him to breathe and and then they were 00:15:59.788 --> 00:16:03.557 just going to whisk him away into the oxygen tank, you know, because they 00:16:03.590 --> 00:16:07.157 had to run all the tests on him and just make sure that he was OK, that 00:16:07.190 --> 00:16:11.936 his lungs were OK and stuff. And but I got, I was able to persuade him to 00:16:11.969 --> 00:16:16.755 let me hold him for like a second, you know. And so I got to hold him and 00:16:16.788 --> 00:16:21.316 um and that was really strange, actually. I don't know like if you had 00:16:21.349 --> 00:16:25.366 that experience with August, but um. 00:16:25.399 --> 00:16:31.645 Uh, looking into his eyes, you know how. Infant's eyes are like totally 00:16:31.678 --> 00:16:36.936 black. It's like as if the universe is still like as if they're not here 00:16:36.969 --> 00:16:43.667 yet. Like it felt as if he was still as if he was like an alien and he had 00:16:43.700 --> 00:16:48.066 just arrived here and he wasn't even totally there yet. Like it was a 00:16:48.099 --> 00:16:52.025 really strange thing and for a second I was like, Is it wrong for me to 00:16:52.058 --> 00:16:58.895 think this? You know? And so it was like really amazing, but it was also 00:16:58.928 --> 00:17:06.006 really surreal. Like there's this being, you know. So, um. 00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:13.276 Anyway, it was super emotional. And really bizarre. And then they whisked 00:17:13.309 --> 00:17:17.315 him off and then, you know, and then I had to go through like and, you 00:17:17.348 --> 00:17:20.637 know, the afterbirth and they had to like stitch me up and stuff a little 00:17:20.670 --> 00:17:26.255 bit, um. Not too much luckily, but you know I did the afterbirth thing and 00:17:26.288 --> 00:17:33.936 then um and then I had to. I started running a fever and um and and one of 00:17:33.969 --> 00:17:40.016 my veins in my leg got like inflamed and so I ended up having to like I 00:17:40.049 --> 00:17:42.936 couldn't see him right away. Like they had to make sure that I was OK 00:17:42.969 --> 00:17:47.535 first and um I had to like they had to give me like blood thinners and 00:17:47.568 --> 00:17:50.217 stuff like that just to make sure that there wasn't like a clot, you know 00:17:50.250 --> 00:17:54.575 , in, in my leg. I think all the pressure from the pushing just, you know 00:17:54.608 --> 00:18:01.835 , did something with my veins. And so, um, You know, Max was like over 00:18:01.868 --> 00:18:07.756 there fighting and I was over here fighting and it was just super 00:18:07.789 --> 00:18:13.357 emotional and super traumatic, um, because all I wanted to do is just be 00:18:13.390 --> 00:18:18.795 with him and I, I couldn't, and I knew that he was probably totally like, 00:18:18.828 --> 00:18:22.496 where am I? What the hell's going on? Why can't I hear my mom's voice, you 00:18:22.529 --> 00:18:30.377 know. And so finally, later that, I gave birth 7 a.m. or 7:10 a.m. And 00:18:30.410 --> 00:18:35.456 then finally by about 4 o'clock in the afternoon, they let me see him. So 00:18:35.489 --> 00:18:41.805 it was like felt like an eternity, you know, and um and then. It was 00:18:41.838 --> 00:18:45.016 pretty amazing. Like I went into that nursery where they have all the 00:18:45.049 --> 00:18:49.647 oxygen tanks and stuff for the preemies and you know everybody. And Max 00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:54.847 was just in his little tank just screaming like up a fury. Like his face 00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:59.916 was bright red and he was so angry. I, I mean, it was, it was just a fury 00:18:59.949 --> 00:19:04.916 , you know. And I just, and they've been trying to talk him down and his 00:19:04.949 --> 00:19:08.746 dad went over there and started talking to him and everything. And he was 00:19:08.779 --> 00:19:14.186 just, he didn't care. He was like he was pissed. And um and then I went 00:19:14.219 --> 00:19:18.746 over there and I just started talking to him and he immediately stopped 00:19:18.779 --> 00:19:26.779 crying. And That was just amazing, you know. That was just amazing. 00:19:29.439 --> 00:19:33.406 Because you think, you know, like you know that they hear you in there and 00:19:33.439 --> 00:19:37.206 that they're connected to you in there in the womb for all those months, 00:19:37.239 --> 00:19:45.239 but. Just to have that like. Confirmation that. 00:19:45.269 --> 00:19:51.236 That was really real that he felt that too, that it wasn't just me, you 00:19:51.269 --> 00:19:57.847 know. It just felt like such a solid bond, you know, and um. Yeah, and 00:19:57.880 --> 00:20:00.526 then, you know, he ended up making it through and he was, I think he was 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:04.467 in there for like a couple of days and they were still keeping an eye on 00:20:04.500 --> 00:20:07.246 me for a couple of days. So I think all in all, I think we were in the 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:12.676 hospital for like 48 hours after birth or something and 00:20:12.709 --> 00:20:19.217 And I think that's pretty much it. So when you were in going through the 00:20:19.250 --> 00:20:24.097 labor process and there was all that drama with him coming out and not 00:20:24.130 --> 00:20:28.295 knowing what's going on and what was the father thinking? He must have 00:20:28.328 --> 00:20:32.926 been just in a strange headspace because you were You know, having issues 00:20:32.959 --> 00:20:36.285 after the birth, baby was having issues after the birth. Did he talk to 00:20:36.318 --> 00:20:41.325 you about that, or was he helpful or was he just feeling? Claude was super 00:20:41.358 --> 00:20:44.367 helpful. Um, 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.607 his personality, he's always been like, he doesn't really talk about stuff 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:51.045 , which ultimately kind of led to the demise of the relationship, 00:20:51.078 --> 00:20:57.045 unfortunately. Um, but he's like the stoic kind. Like when the going gets 00:20:57.078 --> 00:21:02.045 rough, he's just, you know, there. He's quiet and he's strong. And you 00:21:02.078 --> 00:21:05.906 know, but that was great, you know, in those kind of situations, it's 00:21:05.939 --> 00:21:11.436 great. So he ended up going with Max because I obviously was worried too 00:21:11.469 --> 00:21:16.347 that they would like switch him in the room or something. You know, I just 00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:21.325 wanted to make sure that he was going to be OK, you know, and Um, so yeah 00:21:21.358 --> 00:21:28.857 , he, he did well, but I to this day, I don't really completely know. 00:21:28.890 --> 00:21:32.426 Like how he felt, because he's not really, he doesn't really talk about 00:21:32.459 --> 00:21:37.686 his own feelings that much. Um, 00:21:37.719 --> 00:21:43.986 But you know he was there, he was present and he was strong. Um, And I 00:21:44.019 --> 00:21:50.357 mean, he was like super. Duper excited and in love with Max right away, 00:21:50.390 --> 00:21:55.776 you know, and and that was really cool. Um, I can't believe you went to 8 00:21:55.809 --> 00:22:02.097 centimeters on Potoso. Because Pittosin is so intense. 00:22:02.130 --> 00:22:07.717 Yeah, I don't know what to compare it to God. Well, I think that you're 00:22:07.750 --> 00:22:12.936 right in saying, because I made 4 and I was like, right, right. Yeah. But 00:22:12.969 --> 00:22:16.815 they say that one of the things is that that natural build, you know, like 00:22:16.848 --> 00:22:20.357 Mother was saying she was cooking and doing stuff. It's like and then you 00:22:20.390 --> 00:22:26.121 also have this excitement and anticipation that builds. The body surges, 00:22:26.154 --> 00:22:30.190 so you're kind of more emotionally prepared for pain because your 00:22:30.223 --> 00:22:34.160 excitement levels really high. You've been getting all this oxytocin and 00:22:34.193 --> 00:22:39.930 hormones. And when you're getting that Pitocin, it's like from 0 00 yeah, 00:22:39.963 --> 00:22:43.871 yeah, yeah, I think what happened is with the dilation, I think it was 00:22:43.904 --> 00:22:50.762 like I wasn't dilated enough and then I think it went from like 3 or 00:22:50.795 --> 00:22:55.676 whatever the You know, there's a certain rate that they don't want to give 00:22:55.709 --> 00:23:00.825 you the epidural yet because it's too early. And I went from that to 8 in 00:23:00.858 --> 00:23:05.756 like, I think it was only 15 or 20 minutes. Like it was like really fast. 00:23:05.789 --> 00:23:08.676 Like it took a really long time and then all of a sudden it was like, OK 00:23:08.709 --> 00:23:14.186 , let's go. And um And I think it so it kind of took everybody by surprise 00:23:14.219 --> 00:23:17.887 , you know. 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:22.825 So were you, um, had you had a family history? Did you have a family 00:23:22.858 --> 00:23:26.506 support network or did you have a certain expectation of what your birth 00:23:26.539 --> 00:23:32.926 process is gonna be? Well, I, I thought that, um, you know, I thought it 00:23:32.959 --> 00:23:39.976 was gonna be natural at the birthing center, you know, and, um, so it was 00:23:40.009 --> 00:23:44.367 completely the opposite. Um, 00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.315 But 00:23:47.348 --> 00:23:51.565 I don't know, and I wrestled with that, I think, you know, later at the 00:23:51.598 --> 00:23:57.347 time I didn't really wrestle with it too much because. I just wanted to do 00:23:57.380 --> 00:24:02.545 what was necessary, but later on I wrestled with it because it wasn't. You 00:24:02.578 --> 00:24:10.137 know, cause I think like as a mother, there's that pressure, you know, to 00:24:10.170 --> 00:24:14.357 Make it look good, you know, like the ideal mother has a natural birth and 00:24:14.390 --> 00:24:20.246 breastfeeds for at least a year, and there's all these pressures now to be 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:25.906 like this perfect. Mother, and I think kind of letting go a lot of that 00:24:25.939 --> 00:24:31.026 stuff because Max also didn't end up latching on very well because they 00:24:31.059 --> 00:24:39.059 ignored my um instructions and gave him a bottle and a binky before he was 00:24:39.660 --> 00:24:45.156 able to breastfeed for the first time. And so that kind of and then we 00:24:45.189 --> 00:24:48.877 even went to see like a lactation specialist and all that stuff later to 00:24:48.910 --> 00:24:53.476 try and fix it, but it just, our stress level, you know, and after the 00:24:53.509 --> 00:24:57.156 birth that we had had, our stress level was probably pretty high anyway, 00:24:57.189 --> 00:25:03.476 like post-traumatic or whatever. And um our stress level just kept rising 00:25:03.509 --> 00:25:07.236 because of him not being able to get the food that he needed because he 00:25:07.269 --> 00:25:12.436 wasn't latching on right and me being in pain. Um, that finally I just 00:25:12.469 --> 00:25:18.617 decided no, it's not worth it. I'm just gonna, you know, I'd rather. We 00:25:18.650 --> 00:25:22.377 bond And 00:25:22.410 --> 00:25:26.176 You know, really get the opportunity to bond and relax and recover from 00:25:26.209 --> 00:25:30.815 this experience rather than just, you know, you must breastfeed at all 00:25:30.848 --> 00:25:34.496 costs, you know, and I'm still to this day, I'm happy with the decision 00:25:34.529 --> 00:25:38.295 that I made for that, you know, um, but I did beat myself up about it for 00:25:38.328 --> 00:25:44.656 a really long time. And I was like, OK, I choose sanity, you know, because 00:25:44.689 --> 00:25:47.256 it really got to that point. I think it was at one point where Max and I 00:25:47.289 --> 00:25:50.295 were both, like he was screaming at the top of his lungs. We were sitting 00:25:50.328 --> 00:25:52.936 in the car like we were on an errand or something and I was trying to 00:25:52.969 --> 00:25:56.295 breastfeed him in the back of the car and he was screaming because he 00:25:56.328 --> 00:26:02.206 couldn't get milk and I was like crying and Getting angry because like, 00:26:02.239 --> 00:26:07.206 you know, my breasts were hurting and, and because he was freaking out and 00:26:07.239 --> 00:26:09.476 you know. 00:26:09.509 --> 00:26:13.805 It was just impossible. I was like, no, screw it. I'm not, I'm not doing 00:26:13.838 --> 00:26:16.916 this, you know, and. 00:26:16.949 --> 00:26:21.217 I think it was good, but there you know. I think that's a good way of 00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:26.736 putting it because like. Um, a lot of times people that have very good 00:26:26.769 --> 00:26:29.506 breastfeeding experience, like my mother talks about how it is this 00:26:29.539 --> 00:26:33.406 bonding thing between mother and child, but there's also the flip side of 00:26:33.439 --> 00:26:39.075 that, how it actually prevents bonding if it's not going well. It inhibits 00:26:39.108 --> 00:26:43.377 it, I think, because all this frustration and emotional turmoil is not 00:26:43.410 --> 00:26:48.377 letting you enjoy being with your child. Yeah. 00:26:48.410 --> 00:26:54.996 Yeah, so I don't know, I think the whole. Experience overall was like an 00:26:55.029 --> 00:27:03.029 exercise and letting go. Of You know, previously held conceptions, um. 00:27:03.890 --> 00:27:07.315 And and just kind of surviving and just making making it through, you know 00:27:07.348 --> 00:27:13.585 , and um. You know, I don't know if other people. That have like more, you 00:27:13.618 --> 00:27:18.295 know, traumatic kind of births that experienced it this way, but. You know 00:27:18.328 --> 00:27:23.496 , um, and I don't know if maybe it's, you know, because I am like by 00:27:23.529 --> 00:27:28.496 nature somebody that likes to sort of control things or maybe we all as 00:27:28.529 --> 00:27:32.137 human beings try to control things, you know, because in my everyday life 00:27:32.170 --> 00:27:35.016 , I'm not really somebody that's constantly trying to control things. I'm 00:27:35.049 --> 00:27:39.016 kind of the opposite way. I'm maybe a little bit more too laid back about 00:27:39.049 --> 00:27:46.026 stuff. But when it comes to like that the big pain and things like that, I 00:27:46.059 --> 00:27:51.706 really thought that if I can manage this experience, that it'll be less 00:27:51.739 --> 00:27:57.835 painful for me. And I think it was kind of a big surprise for me that you 00:27:57.868 --> 00:28:03.906 can't, you don't have any control over this. And it was weird for me. I 00:28:03.939 --> 00:28:10.107 think one of the hardest things for me was honestly seeing my um the Max's 00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:16.325 dad see me at such a like a raw, vulnerable 00:28:16.358 --> 00:28:18.717 um 00:28:18.750 --> 00:28:26.750 Oh gosh. It's like another person seeing me completely without anything in 00:28:27.930 --> 00:28:33.416 between, like with no pretenses. Like I've always, I don't know. I've 00:28:33.449 --> 00:28:36.857 always thought that I was somebody that can be really emotionally open and 00:28:36.890 --> 00:28:40.617 I'm a good communicator and you know like, oh yeah, I can be so vulnerable 00:28:40.650 --> 00:28:45.916 in a relationship and it really taught me that no, I'm not really You know 00:28:45.949 --> 00:28:51.476 , like if somebody like I felt after birth, I felt like he saw too much. 00:28:51.509 --> 00:28:57.026 It was weird. Like it felt kind of strange, not physically so much, but 00:28:57.059 --> 00:28:59.956 Well, I also kind of felt like, yeah, maybe he shouldn't have been in the 00:28:59.989 --> 00:29:05.045 room. Like maybe in the 50s and 60s, maybe they had it right, you know, 00:29:05.078 --> 00:29:08.486 like you just kind of, you know, you have your child and you go through 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.726 this messy experience and, but the father of your child doesn't really 00:29:12.759 --> 00:29:18.825 know, you know, just, you know. That you were just like kind of 00:29:18.858 --> 00:29:23.467 temporarily insane and you know, your guts were hanging out and you know, 00:29:23.500 --> 00:29:27.825 it just felt so raw like maybe I could handle my mom seeing that, but I 00:29:27.858 --> 00:29:33.936 don't know, you know, anybody else for that matter, not somebody that I 00:29:33.969 --> 00:29:38.717 Cause I've never seen that side of him, so it's like kind of a weird 00:29:38.750 --> 00:29:45.926 balance even. Like you've seen everything there is to see about who I am. 00:29:45.959 --> 00:29:52.597 But I've never seen who you are. I don't know. I think that's very 00:29:52.630 --> 00:29:57.416 poignant, I do, because you're right, you just by the nature of that 00:29:57.449 --> 00:30:01.857 experience and who has it, which is the female, you know, unless that 00:30:01.890 --> 00:30:07.815 changes, um, yeah, that you're exposed in a different way. Yeah. I also 00:30:07.848 --> 00:30:10.887 think that idea of pretenses is interesting too, because it's like You 00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:15.206 know, we were just talking about labels, you know, you know, regardless of 00:30:15.239 --> 00:30:20.285 how punk or how cool you are or anything, labor, you're not a punk, you're 00:30:20.318 --> 00:30:26.206 not, you're not, you know, a hipster, you are a woman giving birth and 00:30:26.239 --> 00:30:31.746 that is just transcends all of that, yeah, yeah. 00:30:31.779 --> 00:30:36.597 So did you have kind of some similar thoughts about those things? Yeah, 00:30:36.630 --> 00:30:40.357 I've never really talked too much about other women. That's why this 00:30:40.390 --> 00:30:45.676 project is actually going to be interesting to um you know, read about and 00:30:45.709 --> 00:30:52.456 see. Um, because everybody's experiences are so different, they are. But 00:30:52.489 --> 00:30:56.535 then some of the things that are similar are surprising, you know, which 00:30:56.568 --> 00:31:00.627 has been really interesting. Like we hear women talking about body image 00:31:00.660 --> 00:31:04.335 and um and then there's of course the situation of control, lack of 00:31:04.368 --> 00:31:08.805 control, because we're kind of taught that we can control this. You can't 00:31:08.838 --> 00:31:16.486 really yeah. You know, and how um how you can have a bad experience, but 00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:20.647 if you go in it with the right mindset, it can make it a good experience 00:31:20.680 --> 00:31:24.887 in a way, right, right. But if you go in there with this expectation of 00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:27.486 having a particular experience and you end up getting something very 00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:32.285 different, sometimes that's really traumatic. Yeah, yeah, I think so too. 00:31:32.318 --> 00:31:37.295 Yeah. It's like how you reframe it in your mind, right? Yeah. And it's 00:31:37.328 --> 00:31:41.815 been interesting too because we have found similarities and then what we 00:31:41.848 --> 00:31:46.575 really found a lot of differences because each person is such a unique way 00:31:46.608 --> 00:31:51.147 of interpreting their experience. This isn't just like a journalistic kind 00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:55.416 of catalog of and this happened and then 3 hours later I did this, you 00:31:55.449 --> 00:31:58.377 know what I mean because it's like a personal interpretation of it. So in 00:31:58.410 --> 00:32:06.206 that way it's they've been very unique. Yeah. I think maybe. 00:32:06.239 --> 00:32:09.357 I don't know, it's just me being, you know, waxing philosophical about 00:32:09.390 --> 00:32:12.456 about this, but. 00:32:12.489 --> 00:32:18.127 Maybe it also shows, you know. how comfortable you feel with yourself and 00:32:18.160 --> 00:32:25.085 how much you love yourself as a human being just at that very core 00:32:25.118 --> 00:32:30.446 experience. You know, like you said, we can be punk rock, we can be a 00:32:30.479 --> 00:32:33.686 hippie, we can be into this, we can be into that. But when you're in a 00:32:33.719 --> 00:32:40.377 situation like birth, um, our own birth, actually, when we're born or the 00:32:40.410 --> 00:32:44.696 birth of our children. Um, or death, all those things are completely 00:32:44.729 --> 00:32:51.976 stripped away, and I think those are the only 3 times. In your life that. 00:32:52.009 --> 00:32:56.666 You know, any of any of the outside stuff, any of the images are 00:32:56.699 --> 00:33:01.936 completely stripped away and you're absolutely naked. 00:33:01.969 --> 00:33:07.176 So yeah, maybe it kind of boils down to, you know, how much do you really 00:33:07.209 --> 00:33:14.075 love yourself? I don't know, you know. But I think It's taught me a lot 00:33:14.108 --> 00:33:19.565 about myself, you know, and. I overall, like, even though it was like, you 00:33:19.598 --> 00:33:22.766 know, a stressful experience, I, I don't know, maybe birth is always 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.627 stressful, you know, unless you're, you know, lucky enough to have a 00:33:25.660 --> 00:33:30.545 really relaxed like home birth kind of a thing. But you know, overall, 00:33:30.578 --> 00:33:35.617 it's like. It's a traumatic process for your body to go through. I mean 00:33:35.650 --> 00:33:41.815 people die in childbirth. Um, it's pretty raw. And so in a way, it's life 00:33:41.848 --> 00:33:46.055 changing, you know, and 00:33:46.088 --> 00:33:49.696 I don't know, it feels good to talk about it, actually. Cuz usually you 00:33:49.729 --> 00:33:52.656 kind of shove it away into the back of your mind and you just kind of 00:33:52.689 --> 00:33:59.496 carry on. Yeah, I found that I really needed to talk about it and I didn't 00:33:59.529 --> 00:34:01.555 think that anyone really wanted to hear about it because it would be like 00:34:01.588 --> 00:34:05.877 , 00, do you have a C-section? Oh, do you have a natural, how many pounds 00:34:05.910 --> 00:34:10.537 was he? And then conversation ends, you know, but not a lot of this kind 00:34:10.570 --> 00:34:15.135 of where you really are. Giving meaning to your experience, your 00:34:15.168 --> 00:34:19.416 experience is meaningful other than just bringing life into the world. 00:34:19.449 --> 00:34:22.816 It's meaningful. It was meaningful to me other than just, not to say just 00:34:22.849 --> 00:34:26.997 , but other than bringing my son into the world because it meant more than 00:34:27.030 --> 00:34:32.577 that to me, and it is the self-discovery, I think that's part of the um. 00:34:32.610 --> 00:34:36.706 Yeah, I think, um, that you're right that birth and death are always 00:34:36.739 --> 00:34:41.706 intertwined. You know, and in your case, truly, you know, it was like 00:34:41.739 --> 00:34:45.977 death was in the room at the same time that life was. Yeah, yeah, it sure 00:34:46.010 --> 00:34:53.186 felt like that, yeah, at one point anyway, yeah, definitely, um. 00:34:53.219 --> 00:34:56.695 Yeah, so then in a way kind of like working through those things and 00:34:56.728 --> 00:35:00.396 coming to terms, you know, I think it affected me for a long time 00:35:00.429 --> 00:35:03.936 afterwards actually, um, because, you know, like when, when they're little 00:35:03.969 --> 00:35:09.856 , you know you go through that experience and then and then life begins. 00:35:09.889 --> 00:35:15.405 And so you don't really have that time to sort of Take a spa break and 00:35:15.438 --> 00:35:19.405 reflect on your experience, you know, it's no like you're fully propelled 00:35:19.438 --> 00:35:23.526 into, you know, what it means to be a mother and you know, long sleepless 00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:27.736 nights and you know, all the work that it takes, um. And so you don't 00:35:27.769 --> 00:35:33.316 really have a chance to integrate that. That event, that major life 00:35:33.349 --> 00:35:41.349 changing event, and um I think maybe now. I'm, I'm finally getting the 00:35:41.869 --> 00:35:46.626 chance to really think about it more, you know. Um, but like I remember 00:35:46.659 --> 00:35:53.405 like the first year when Max was a baby, I hardly slept. Like I never 00:35:53.438 --> 00:35:59.477 slept deeply and you know because I was so afraid of SIDS, I was so 00:35:59.510 --> 00:36:03.925 traumatized by him almost dying at birth that I couldn't relax. You know, 00:36:03.958 --> 00:36:11.776 I was just constantly on the defensive, you know, like Just It was, it was 00:36:11.809 --> 00:36:17.445 kind of crazy, you know, but I did have a friend whose kid had some health 00:36:17.478 --> 00:36:21.856 issues, and she had him about 6 months after me and she also went through 00:36:21.889 --> 00:36:24.695 the same thing. Like she didn't have any sleep and you know and it was 00:36:24.728 --> 00:36:31.445 like this ongoing kind of trauma thing that was going on, you know, and, 00:36:31.478 --> 00:36:38.026 and I think that even though like. There was tons of happiness in there, 00:36:38.059 --> 00:36:42.175 you know, but there was, it was also a really stressful time, you know. 00:36:42.208 --> 00:36:49.675 And uh Only now that Max has grown up, I kind of feel like this year for 00:36:49.708 --> 00:36:54.566 the first time, I kind of feel like I can. 00:36:54.599 --> 00:37:02.175 Sort of let go, you know. It's like he's grown. I'm not. 00:37:02.208 --> 00:37:06.336 This sounds weird. I'm not legally responsible for him anymore, and that 00:37:06.369 --> 00:37:10.885 sounds strange because as a mom, I'm always gonna feel responsible and I'm 00:37:10.918 --> 00:37:14.986 always going to be connected. And I still worry about him, and I always 00:37:15.019 --> 00:37:20.945 will, but There's something about him being an adult. Like I don't have to 00:37:20.978 --> 00:37:24.836 worry if he misses curfew, that the police are going to show up by my 00:37:24.869 --> 00:37:31.695 house, you know, things like that. I feel like because he's legally his 00:37:31.728 --> 00:37:37.345 own person now, I feel like it's a cue for me. To do the right thing and 00:37:37.378 --> 00:37:40.816 kind of let go more and have more maybe the kind of relationship with him 00:37:40.849 --> 00:37:43.905 that his dad does, which has always been like, hey, buddy, what's up? You 00:37:43.938 --> 00:37:49.635 know, and lets him do like super permissive, you know, and it's like, oh, 00:37:49.668 --> 00:37:54.416 it must be so nice, you know. I feel like for the first time that maybe I 00:37:54.449 --> 00:37:59.057 can do that a little bit more and and kind of it helps sort of let go of, 00:37:59.090 --> 00:38:04.595 you know, all the the weight of the the responsibility that as a. As a 00:38:04.628 --> 00:38:08.546 mother that you kind of feel on you, you know. 00:38:08.579 --> 00:38:13.365 When I, I remember, you know, being pregnant and just and I read 00:38:13.398 --> 00:38:17.026 everything about that could go wrong and could go wrong after he was born 00:38:17.059 --> 00:38:21.865 , and I just kept feeling like every fucking milestone was like this 00:38:21.898 --> 00:38:25.287 mountain I had to climb up and over, up and over and over and over and 00:38:25.320 --> 00:38:28.345 over and over again and be like. You know, because he was really like to 00:38:28.378 --> 00:38:31.626 turn over, but he was like super fat, so I don't think he could leverage 00:38:31.659 --> 00:38:34.405 his weight, 00:38:34.438 --> 00:38:37.307 right, right. Is he gonna turn over? When's he going to turn over? He was 00:38:37.340 --> 00:38:41.905 late to talk. Why isn't he talking? Because he have, you know, autism or 00:38:41.938 --> 00:38:47.227 whatever things and now I feel like I'm plagued by these like, you know. 00:38:47.260 --> 00:38:51.827 Those rules, yeah. So it must be part of that too, that like you've made 00:38:51.860 --> 00:38:57.905 it to adulthood, you're functioning like, oh my God, it's like we somehow 00:38:57.938 --> 00:39:02.546 made it, you know, even though all of my screwups and all of my, you know 00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:06.626 , we somehow like, here you are standing in front of me, a fully grown 00:39:06.659 --> 00:39:11.385 adult and I'm and I'm proud of, you know, I'm proud of who he's become 00:39:11.418 --> 00:39:14.615 like. You know, I've definitely have not been the perfect mother, and I 00:39:14.648 --> 00:39:18.296 don't know if a perfect mother exists, you know, because we're so flawed 00:39:18.329 --> 00:39:22.655 as human beings. And um but you know, you do, like you read all the 00:39:22.688 --> 00:39:29.175 children's books and um You know, with conflicting viewpoints. And so 00:39:29.208 --> 00:39:32.977 finally, I think at one point when Max was like, I think after the what to 00:39:33.010 --> 00:39:36.256 expect when you're expecting after the first year, and then I kind of 00:39:36.289 --> 00:39:39.586 looked at the 2nd and 3rd year one and finally I just threw it in the 00:39:39.619 --> 00:39:45.856 trash because I thought, no. You know, I have an instinct and I've got to 00:39:45.889 --> 00:39:50.365 go with what my gut tells me. Otherwise, I can't ever say that I went with 00:39:50.398 --> 00:39:54.655 what I thought was right. And so I'm going to make a lot of mistakes, but 00:39:54.688 --> 00:39:58.577 those will be my mistakes, not because I listened to some stupid book that 00:39:58.610 --> 00:40:03.856 told me what to do, you know. And you know, I think he turned out all 00:40:03.889 --> 00:40:10.776 right at the end of the day, despite me, you know. So, but I know what you 00:40:10.809 --> 00:40:15.175 mean with those milestones, um. 00:40:15.208 --> 00:40:18.537 You know, I think my mom was worried about me because I didn't talk until 00:40:18.570 --> 00:40:23.155 I was 2. And you know, here I am like gabbing away like there's no 00:40:23.188 --> 00:40:28.316 tomorrow, you know, it's not necessarily an indicator of. The kind of 00:40:28.349 --> 00:40:32.876 person that you're going to be once you're grown. And I think my niece 00:40:32.909 --> 00:40:36.717 also didn't talk till she was about 2, maybe even 215. They were really 00:40:36.750 --> 00:40:42.615 worried. And she is, she is bright, she's creative. She has great empathy 00:40:42.648 --> 00:40:46.856 , and she's going to study. She's got great grades. She's going to study 00:40:46.889 --> 00:40:51.135 at university here next year and um she's an actress, she's going to be an 00:40:51.168 --> 00:40:54.816 actress and stuff. They're learning more and more that kids process 00:40:54.849 --> 00:40:58.166 information differently. So it's like, you know, a lot of times there's 00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:01.791 people who are kids. Is that when they're learning to speak, they're 00:41:01.824 --> 00:41:04.592 practicing speaking, but then there's other kids that are learning by just 00:41:04.625 --> 00:41:08.720 absorbing for long periods of time and then they finally let you know what 00:41:08.753 --> 00:41:11.720 they've learned. But you know 00:41:11.753 --> 00:41:16.311 we just don't accommodate difference very well when it comes to developing 00:41:16.344 --> 00:41:22.307 and stages and stuff. Um, so when you think of like creating imagery. 00:41:22.340 --> 00:41:26.675 Related to your story, what are your thoughts? Or have you said anything 00:41:26.708 --> 00:41:33.557 today that is kind of like you? Well, without giving, you know, right, 00:41:33.590 --> 00:41:38.865 yeah, it's kind of like, you know. A lot of times when, when I start a 00:41:38.898 --> 00:41:42.026 painting, I have, well, actually, usually when I start a painting, I have 00:41:42.059 --> 00:41:45.385 something in mind and it changes as I'm working on it. And sometimes quite 00:41:45.418 --> 00:41:52.017 drastically, you know, I think for me when I like think about the whole 00:41:52.050 --> 00:42:00.050 Process visually. It kind of feels like a tangled bloody mess on one side 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:07.807 and this sort of clinical aspect on this other side. And it's kind of a 00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:12.686 division so visually I kind of see a line between that, maybe even two 00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:16.807 panels or you know some, which I'm kind of, I tend to be fond of, you know 00:42:16.840 --> 00:42:20.606 , I think you saw when I did stuff before with the independent study I 00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:26.557 like. Putting things together somehow, you know, like little portions of 00:42:26.590 --> 00:42:31.287 paintings and sometimes I find myself cutting up old stuff and kind of. 00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:36.896 You know, hm, this is an interesting area or whatnot. Um, so I kind of see 00:42:36.929 --> 00:42:41.885 these sort of. Two opposites in there. And you know I kind of, I come from 00:42:41.918 --> 00:42:45.885 more of a figurative background, but I've been moving a little bit more 00:42:45.918 --> 00:42:50.086 into abstraction lately, so I kind of, you know, I want to sort of see 00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:55.046 what happens with that. And so I'm going to, you know, start playing 00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:58.626 around with some stuff here pretty soon and I've got, you know, like a 00:42:58.659 --> 00:43:05.706 starting point in mind. Of, you know, a blood and guts and. You know, 00:43:05.739 --> 00:43:09.146 veins and. 00:43:09.179 --> 00:43:12.776 You know, um. 00:43:12.809 --> 00:43:16.905 And we'll kind of see, it might still totally change as I'm working on it 00:43:16.938 --> 00:43:20.686 , because that's kind of like, yeah, that's, I started, I'm working on 00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:24.206 this, this other painting right now that, you know, I've kind of started 00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:28.717 with one idea and as I was working on it and I'm like processing 00:43:28.750 --> 00:43:32.967 information that's Things I feel strongly about that are happening right 00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:36.615 now on the planet and everything like I just had this idea, well, I'm 00:43:36.648 --> 00:43:39.615 gonna make this totally different. I'm gonna add this and it's gonna be 00:43:39.648 --> 00:43:42.936 this whole other thing. And that's just how my process has always been, so 00:43:42.969 --> 00:43:46.807 it sometimes takes me a really long time cause I've never been like OK, 00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:52.486 I've got this idea. This is my sketch, and these are my photo references 00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:56.287 and I paint this somehow that's not it's always been kind of about the 00:43:56.320 --> 00:44:00.046 process, you know. There were some things that you said that I thought 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:04.956 were really visual when you saw the connection between you and him. And 00:44:04.989 --> 00:44:09.916 that bond and then of course this play between opposites like life and 00:44:09.949 --> 00:44:16.227 death and this kind of reality of it like rawness then that pristine 00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:23.155 clinical surgical to that space too. But there was a point that where we 00:44:23.188 --> 00:44:25.747 talked about the relationship between you and him when he was looking at 00:44:25.780 --> 00:44:29.816 you with those black eyes, but I thought there's something there too, 00:44:29.849 --> 00:44:35.736 visual, even though it is maybe quasi figurative, but 00:44:35.769 --> 00:44:39.865 you know maybe way of integrating. Some of the that whatever that is 00:44:39.898 --> 00:44:43.747 visually to the abstraction, but that was really poignant, that thing 00:44:43.780 --> 00:44:48.046 where you said he wasn't quite there you know like that that distance 00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:53.747 because it seems like, yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah I did too. I mean it 00:44:53.780 --> 00:44:57.146 sounded like you were about to say it and then you didn't quite say it, 00:44:57.179 --> 00:45:01.327 but it was like he was in. Some other like he was in the greater universe 00:45:01.360 --> 00:45:06.606 , you know, he was still in this like yeah, like as if he was still in the 00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:12.287 stars and he hadn't arrived yet. I was seeing in his eyes just like the 00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:16.227 expansiveness of the entire universe, 00:45:16.260 --> 00:45:21.126 and yeah, that was really. I guess that was really poignant for me, and I 00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:27.276 remember actually when I was a teenager, I took LSD a couple times and. 00:45:27.309 --> 00:45:30.517 had a really bad trip one time and and the trip was basically that I was 00:45:30.550 --> 00:45:34.635 like a black hole in the universe and I couldn't get out of this thing, 00:45:34.668 --> 00:45:39.217 but it was like this image of me just being star stuff or whatever, you 00:45:39.250 --> 00:45:44.967 know, like that um we are made of star stuff, um. 00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:50.546 It's not Richard Dawkins, it's uh. 00:45:50.579 --> 00:45:56.135 That other guy that writes all the books about science and it's not, is it 00:45:56.168 --> 00:45:59.756 Richard Dawkins? It's just a physicist. Yeah, maybe it is Richard Dawkins 00:45:59.789 --> 00:46:05.066 . I forget. Max gave me the book and um but he has had a quote, and you 00:46:05.099 --> 00:46:08.905 guys maybe have seen it on like Pinterest or on t-shirts lately because 00:46:08.938 --> 00:46:13.405 it's like we are made of star stuff and I've always You know, it's funny 00:46:13.438 --> 00:46:18.606 because I actually like a while back, thought of doing a whole series of 00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:23.327 paintings of, you know, either like people floating in the universe on 00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:29.126 chairs, um, or like where you have the outline of figures, but then 00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:32.836 Instead of actually there being flesh, it'd just be stars like the 00:46:32.869 --> 00:46:36.706 universe. And then recently there of course have been people like it 00:46:36.739 --> 00:46:39.517 always happens with ideas if you don't do it early enough. Other people do 00:46:39.550 --> 00:46:44.956 it eventually because those ideas sort of, yeah, yeah, it's a collective 00:46:44.989 --> 00:46:48.595 unconscious or whatever. People have similar similar ideas and some 00:46:48.628 --> 00:46:51.195 friends of mine actually did paintings like that and I was like, Dang it, 00:46:51.228 --> 00:46:58.396 there goes my idea again. But um you know, 00:46:58.429 --> 00:47:00.026 well, it's just there I think so too with just the black eyes, because 00:47:00.059 --> 00:47:03.506 there is something unusual about I mean it's not unusual, it's very usual 00:47:03.539 --> 00:47:07.787 because it's every child, but their eye color doesn't come in for like 00:47:07.820 --> 00:47:12.820 almost a year. It's like a long. Time and it's at least 6 months. So for 00:47:12.853 --> 00:47:18.220 the 1st 6 months, every kid has the same color eyes. That is really odd. 00:47:18.253 --> 00:47:22.581 It is weird. They haven't quite developed as a person yet, although I 00:47:22.614 --> 00:47:27.300 really feel like August is who he is with my belly, but it's almost like 00:47:27.333 --> 00:47:32.702 something that's so individualized hasn't been individualized yet. Like 00:47:32.735 --> 00:47:36.405 that personal stamp hasn't. 00:47:36.438 --> 00:47:39.796 Yeah, and it was weird because Max actually, until, you know, I don't know 00:47:39.829 --> 00:47:43.327 if you know you guys believe in past lives and I'm kind of like on the 00:47:43.360 --> 00:47:46.945 fence about all that myself because I'm like, uh, anything's possible, you 00:47:46.978 --> 00:47:51.557 know, in life. But um, he used to have like these really intense dreams um 00:47:51.590 --> 00:47:55.836 all the way up until he was about 3 years old of him being like covered in 00:47:55.869 --> 00:48:01.276 bullet holes and like me riding in a jeep with him and taking care of him. 00:48:01.309 --> 00:48:06.155 He was like mortally wounded. That was before he ever even saw like army 00:48:06.188 --> 00:48:10.046 or war films or anything because he was so little. And so I was like, What 00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:14.727 is this all about? Does this mean anything more? I don't know. There's 00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:20.416 just a lot of mysteries. 3 in telling you that stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I 00:48:20.449 --> 00:48:25.405 remember like I woke up in the middle of the night, one night, he was like 00:48:25.438 --> 00:48:29.856 , he woke me up. He was like, Mom, mom, and I just saw him sort of like 00:48:29.889 --> 00:48:33.905 almost sleepwalking to this mirror that we had in the bedroom. And he was 00:48:33.938 --> 00:48:37.276 just like toddling over there and he was like standing in front front of 00:48:37.309 --> 00:48:42.756 the thing. I think he was like 315 and he was like. Look us up in the 00:48:42.789 --> 00:48:48.796 mirror and was like going like this, and he said, This isn't me. Where are 00:48:48.829 --> 00:48:51.997 the holes? 00:48:52.030 --> 00:48:56.296 And then the following night, and I was like, Max, it's OK. It's OK. And 00:48:56.329 --> 00:49:00.436 woke him up and kind of soothed him back to sleep. And the next night he 00:49:00.469 --> 00:49:04.166 was screaming in his sleep and so or crying in his sleep or something, and 00:49:04.199 --> 00:49:09.086 I woke him up and and um and I was like, what's going on? And he was like 00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:17.119 , we were in. A car. And there was blood everywhere. And you were taking 00:49:18.019 --> 00:49:22.827 care of me. Well, he said Jeep, so he must have seen a Jeep before by that 00:49:22.860 --> 00:49:28.997 time. I don't know, he said Jeep, so. I was like his doctor or his nurse 00:49:29.030 --> 00:49:32.675 or something and I was like saving his life. I don't know it was weird. 00:49:32.708 --> 00:49:35.807 Maybe he did see something and that I'm not aware of. Maybe he saw MAS at 00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:39.486 his like great grandparents' house or something, you know, I don't know, 00:49:39.519 --> 00:49:45.517 it might not be mysterious, universal, but It, it, but it does kind of, 00:49:45.550 --> 00:49:48.827 you know, when they are born and they have that look, it does kind of make 00:49:48.860 --> 00:49:54.066 you feel like there's something. Bigger 00:49:54.099 --> 00:49:59.106 And just this, I don't know. Yeah, well, we've been separating things into 00:49:59.139 --> 00:50:01.827 themes, and I think yours is very much connection. That's what I was 00:50:01.860 --> 00:50:05.876 thinking because you were talking about the word like 3 times. Oh wow, 00:50:05.909 --> 00:50:11.836 interesting bond and. Um, but we also talk about celestial bodies, but I 00:50:11.869 --> 00:50:18.327 think connection is good. But anyway, yeah. So yeah, maybe one of those, 00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:21.276 either of those two. We'll see what the artwork looks like and then maybe 00:50:21.309 --> 00:50:27.646 that can help. I can't wait to see everybody's stuff that we were just 00:50:27.679 --> 00:50:30.287 going through it today. I think I'm going to go ahead and turn this on. Is 00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:33.365 there anything else that you want to say about the experience or to 00:50:33.398 --> 00:50:37.327 summarize? Because people say all the most interesting things as soon as 00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:43.896 that gets turned off. Oh, I know. 00:50:43.929 --> 00:50:48.017 I think overall, I think, even though maybe just to summarize, even though 00:50:48.050 --> 00:50:54.376 it was an intense and traumatic experience and 00:50:54.409 --> 00:50:57.236 I probably won't, you know, at this point in my life, I probably won't 00:50:57.269 --> 00:51:00.606 ever have this experience again. 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:06.077 Um It was the most amazing thing ever and I don't regret it, you know, for 00:51:06.110 --> 00:51:12.675 one minute. It was a positive thing, you know, um. I don't know how 00:51:12.708 --> 00:51:16.736 interesting that was, but I think to summarize, because I know I went, we 00:51:16.769 --> 00:51:20.896 were talking about the trauma of the whole thing and it's like it's easy 00:51:20.929 --> 00:51:25.845 for the mind to get stuck on the trauma, but you know trauma can also get 00:51:25.878 --> 00:51:31.175 you really good things. And so even though it's intense, it's like not a 00:51:31.208 --> 00:51:39.208 bad thing, I don't think, you know, I think it's just like 00:51:40.228 --> 00:51:45.517 As a society, we're just not comfortable with things that are out of 00:51:45.550 --> 00:51:49.276 control and raw, and you know we're not like the Amazon tribes that just 00:51:49.309 --> 00:51:53.037 go squat in the forest and have our children. Maybe you know if it wasn't 00:51:53.070 --> 00:51:56.796 so dangerous just to have your baby alone out there by yourself, like I 00:51:56.829 --> 00:52:03.206 kind of it feels like a more sort of a Natural In touch way to have your 00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:11.239 kid, you know, I don't know. No, but yeah, anyway, yeah, I think that's it. 00:52:11.250 --> 00:52:17.289 I think you know it was good. That's exactly how well I'm good.