All right. This is Boris Solis interviewing Nicola Haller for the
Creative Pish Project on September 13th at 3:17. All right. So maybe take
us, set us up. Where did you, where were you? Were you in Germany? I was
right here in Phoenix and talk about the conception. Was it planned? Was
it a hot summer?
The music playing
Well, I think the conception probably happened. I'm pretty sure it
happened in San Francisco when I was coming back from a month in Europe,
uh, visiting my family. And um I met my guy in San Francisco because my
plane was going through there. And so I thought that would be a great time
to take a vacation. And um I had always wanted a child and we actually had
sort of a scare, like a pregnancy scare very early on in our relationship
, but during which he proved himself, you know, by immediately being
willing to step up to the plate. That turned out not even to be a
pregnancy. So, um, you know, I kind of knew that
He would be OK with everything, um, but we weren't trying to have a baby
at the time. It just sort of happened. Um, and then when I found out we
were actually both in the bathroom, you know, doing the test and um we
were both like ridiculously excited. It was at his grandparents' house up
in um in Northern Arizona. And um so we're both super excited about it,
super happy about it the entire time. Um, pregnancy was actually pretty
easy. Um, I lucked out, you know. Um, I think I was maybe sick just a
little bit for two weeks, but it wasn't, you know, I had a good friend
that was sick for a whole year and she couldn't keep anything down and I
didn't have any of that. It was kind of like the perfect pregnancy in a
way. Um,
But
Birth was not as you know as I planned. Can you do me a favor and
elaborate a little bit more on the pregnancy? Did you
did you put on a lot of weight? What was your you still working?
How were you emotionally? Yeah, I got a job because you know when when I
had gone to Europe, I had quit my job, which was a very high pressure
management job. I came back, didn't know I was pregnant yet. Um, got a new
job at just at a resale clothing store, which was kind of hip. And um and
that was really fun. I had a lot of fun, you know, worked with a lot of
really great people, found out I was pregnant and was working. Oh gosh, I
can't remember. I think I was working close to full time the whole time
and um I did gain a ton of weight when I was pregnant. Um, it actually
ended up looking like as if I was if I was wearing, as if I was carrying
twins because I gained, I think it was mostly water weight, you know, and
, um, but you know, blood pressure went up a little bit, but nothing out
of the Ordinary, like all the health checks came back normal and
emotionally I was just super happy to be pregnant, to be expecting a child
um and um Felt really connected to, you know, Max as he was in my womb,
and I felt, yeah, everything was really great and. A little bit more
sensitive, but it wasn't.
An emotional roller coaster really. I think the last month. It was really
tough. Last couple of months, it kind of started changing a little bit as
it got closer to birth. I started getting pretty nervous, um, just about
the idea of, you know, Pushing out this bowling ball, you know, I mean,
just when you visualizing,
you know, um. Pushing something that big out of your body, you know, it's
, it's just unfathomable and, and you, and then you, of course, you know,
you read all the stories, the good and the bad and Um, and there's a lot
of like kind of shoulds and shouldn'ts that you have to think about, you
know, do I wanna. Take medication? Do I want this to be natural, you know
, how is this going to work? Is there going to be an emergency? Am I going
to live through it? And um so a lot of anxiety came up at the end and Max
was, well, I don't know if I should say, say his name. Yeah, OK. Um, And
uh Max was by my calculations overdue. Um, but in retrospect, I think I
miscalculated
when I actually got pregnant because according to the ultrasound, he still
had like a whole month. So I thought he was like 3 weeks overdue, and they
were monitoring me like the last 3 weeks I had to go in um to the birthing
center every day to get monitored and make sure that fetus was healthy and
placenta was still viable and all that stuff. Um. But when he, you know,
finally came out, he actually wasn't, he didn't show any signs of being in
there too long. And so I think that I may have been wrong and just me
being a control freak kind of, um, you know, I should have just trusted
the ultrasound. I should have trusted the doctor, but I always felt like,
I know it was full moon and you know, um. So, um, so he wasn't premature
though either. He was like exactly what they were. I think that maybe he
arrived a couple of days before he should have, you know, um, but I don't
think he was ready to come out, and that was the key thing because they
thought, well, I thought he was 3 weeks overdue. And so they kind of were
like, Well, yeah, OK, we'll go with that. And they were monitoring me and
then finally they were like, well, since there is a possibility that he's
been in there so long, we need to induce you. So initially I had Like I
was going to a birthing center. I had a natural birthing plan in mind, and
you know I had a midwife that I really, really loved and that was awesome
and um you know we thought we were going to do this whole thing naturally
like water birth in the birthing center and everything. And then um you
know, but then the 3 weeks. They started monitoring and everything and
they were like, well, I think it would be safer if we induced you and you
went and had this baby in the hospital, which was just down the road, just
in case. He was really overdue and there was going to be a problem. And so
I was like, OK, let's do that. I feel safer with that too. And um and so
they induced. And um. Inducing makes labor much, much harder, you know,
like the first one that they.
I can't remember what it's called. Like the first one they put you in your
vagina. It's like a little, is it a Foley ball? Is it really a ball that
inflates or is it like a pill? It's it's like a what you call that? I know
the word in German.
It's like medication, uh it's tan. They, they put up, you know, it's like
a little, yeah, yeah, they put like medication. Into you per suppository
that's supposed to, has that hormone. It's not pitocin, but it's somewhat
similar, that's supposed to kind of slowly activate labor. That didn't
work. 12 hours, nothing. And um but that 12 hours I was already in the
hospital, so nothing for 12 hours and I was in there. And then, um, and
then they started the Pitocin through drip, and that was pretty crazy
because it monitors, it monitors um. How strong your contractions are and
how often your contractions are, so you don't have like sort of a natural
progression that your body would normally have. And um So, and I wasn't
even dilated yet. So we were like, I don't remember how this whole how
long this whole thing even happened, but. They were like, No, I didn't
want an epidural and I didn't want drugs. And but then by that time I had
been like, I think by the time I was like 8 centimeters dilated, which
took forever. Like, I don't know if it was like maybe 24 hours already. I
mean, it was like a long time um of pain and contractions and everything
and I was like super exhausted, no sleep, and finally I was just like,
give me the drugs. And and then they like gave me first, but they cause
they were like, you know, we don't know, you're not dilated enough for the
epidural yet, so we're gonna give you this other drug and it was, you know
, some kind of Downer, some some something that makes you get all loopy
and out of it, so I took that and I don't remember what it was, but. I
actually got some sleep, which was nice, you know, um, but then. But then
it caused Max to go into distress. It caused his heart rate to slow, you
know, because it was like a downer drug. And then um and then finally at 8
centimeters, it was like nothing was working and I was like, I can't
handle the pain anymore. I'm too exhausted. So I was like, Give me the
damn epidural. Give it, give it to me, you know. And they were like, Well
, it's kind of on borderline being too late. And I was like, I don't care
, give it to me, you know. So it was too soon. And then it was almost too
late. Yeah, yeah. And I'm like, you guys got to be kidding me. And my
midwife also wasn't there because she had taken a vacation, um, you know,
because Max was officially 3 weeks late and she had already made plans for
a vacation because she thought that Max would already be there, you know.
And so she wasn't there and I, the doctor that was going to be delivering.
He was part of that birthing center. He was kind of like the doctor that
oversees everything and I liked him a lot, but he wasn't my first choice.
And he wasn't even there yet, you know, so it was just a nurse from the
hospital and um whichever other doctors were there. And so I finally I got
the epidural and um it was kind of funny, you know, because they make you
like ball up really tight into a ball and, and you can't move. And I'm
like, and I didn't really feel it go in or anything because they put a
numbing agent on you first. Um, but, but my, um, you know, but the father
, who is now my ex, he um, he was holding me tight. And finally the nurse
, I just heard the nurse say, Sir, I, I need you to go over here and sit
down because I guess he was green in the face when he, when he saw the
needle, like he almost passed out and he wasn't gonna be able to hold me
because it's so huge. And uh so I thought that was kind of, you know,
funny. And um and then you know I got the epidural and you know that kind
of helped. I think I got some more sleep and then finally it was like it
was fully starting and it was time to push. And then, um. I think it was
like 3.5 hours of pushing. Which was just insane, you know, and I, I kept
remembering like. Um, thinking. You know, when it was just like really,
really bad during the pushing, I remember just saying to the nurse, you
know, it's totally just delirious, and I remember saying to the nurse, can
I, can I just go home and, and do this later? You know, uh, cause in my
life I've always had the option, you know, like probably most people, you
always kind of have an option to kind of like quit this job or I can just
stay home from school today or I can kind of slack on this or. And so in
my mind, I just thought irrationally that I could get out of this somehow
and just revisit it later. And for the first time in my life, there was
like this just clarity that came that was like. Your body doesn't care
what you think. Like you are on this ride and you're not getting off until
it's done, and you have no choice in the matter. Your body is just doing
this, you know, and, um. I can honestly say like in my life that was a
pivotal moment. And even though it was horrible.
You know, um.
In retrospect, it was the greatest experience of my life. Coming to that
realization because ever since then. I think it actually prepared me for
having a child, having that moment, because there's so many times I could
have bailed. There's so many times that, you know, like I think birth is
really hard and it's like probably the rawest thing you can ever do in
life, but I don't think it even compares to like what motherhood is and
the sacrifices that you make and willingly.
So maybe it's like, I don't know, if you look at it from like a spiritual
way or something, maybe it's like nature's way of like preparing yourself
for a really tough job. You know, and so anyway, um.
So kind of like digressing back to that moment, you know, and then.
Shortly after that, they were talking about, OK, we need to maybe use
forceps now because he just wasn't coming out properly and at some point
they realized that the cord was wrapped around his, not around his neck,
around his arm. And um And so that's why he was failing, you know, like
his blood pressure was down, they were worried it was. Kind of too late
for them to go in and open me up. And so they were like, OK, we needed to
use forceps maybe. And I was like, Hell no. I am pushing this sucker out.
And and and then the doctor actually finally arrived and helped me like
he pushed down on my belly while I was pushing to help push him out and
all of a sudden he was out, you know, and then um And then it was really
tough, um, because you know Max came out and he wasn't breathing and he
was blue and um and they had to, I mean, I just, you know, I was over here
and they were over on the far side of the room and I kept kind of like
looking over and looking over and what the hell's going on? And I just saw
him like smacking him like on the front, turning him over, smacking him on
the back and just kept like suctioning him, smacking him, you know, to try
and get him to to. Cause I guess he'd swallowed a lot of that meconium
stuff and they were just trying to clear his lungs and get him to breathe
and, you know, and he almost died. So, um.
It was really tough, really tough, um.
So, but, you know, he made it through and they um.
They got him, you know, they got him to breathe and and then they were
just going to whisk him away into the oxygen tank, you know, because they
had to run all the tests on him and just make sure that he was OK, that
his lungs were OK and stuff. And but I got, I was able to persuade him to
let me hold him for like a second, you know. And so I got to hold him and
um and that was really strange, actually. I don't know like if you had
that experience with August, but um.
Uh, looking into his eyes, you know how. Infant's eyes are like totally
black. It's like as if the universe is still like as if they're not here
yet. Like it felt as if he was still as if he was like an alien and he had
just arrived here and he wasn't even totally there yet. Like it was a
really strange thing and for a second I was like, Is it wrong for me to
think this? You know? And so it was like really amazing, but it was also
really surreal. Like there's this being, you know. So, um.
Anyway, it was super emotional. And really bizarre. And then they whisked
him off and then, you know, and then I had to go through like and, you
know, the afterbirth and they had to like stitch me up and stuff a little
bit, um. Not too much luckily, but you know I did the afterbirth thing and
then um and then I had to. I started running a fever and um and and one of
my veins in my leg got like inflamed and so I ended up having to like I
couldn't see him right away. Like they had to make sure that I was OK
first and um I had to like they had to give me like blood thinners and
stuff like that just to make sure that there wasn't like a clot, you know
, in, in my leg. I think all the pressure from the pushing just, you know
, did something with my veins. And so, um, You know, Max was like over
there fighting and I was over here fighting and it was just super
emotional and super traumatic, um, because all I wanted to do is just be
with him and I, I couldn't, and I knew that he was probably totally like,
where am I? What the hell's going on? Why can't I hear my mom's voice, you
know. And so finally, later that, I gave birth 7 a.m. or 7:10 a.m. And
then finally by about 4 o'clock in the afternoon, they let me see him. So
it was like felt like an eternity, you know, and um and then. It was
pretty amazing. Like I went into that nursery where they have all the
oxygen tanks and stuff for the preemies and you know everybody. And Max
was just in his little tank just screaming like up a fury. Like his face
was bright red and he was so angry. I, I mean, it was, it was just a fury
, you know. And I just, and they've been trying to talk him down and his
dad went over there and started talking to him and everything. And he was
just, he didn't care. He was like he was pissed. And um and then I went
over there and I just started talking to him and he immediately stopped
crying. And That was just amazing, you know. That was just amazing.
Because you think, you know, like you know that they hear you in there and
that they're connected to you in there in the womb for all those months,
but. Just to have that like. Confirmation that.
That was really real that he felt that too, that it wasn't just me, you
know. It just felt like such a solid bond, you know, and um. Yeah, and
then, you know, he ended up making it through and he was, I think he was
in there for like a couple of days and they were still keeping an eye on
me for a couple of days. So I think all in all, I think we were in the
hospital for like 48 hours after birth or something and
And I think that's pretty much it. So when you were in going through the
labor process and there was all that drama with him coming out and not
knowing what's going on and what was the father thinking? He must have
been just in a strange headspace because you were You know, having issues
after the birth, baby was having issues after the birth. Did he talk to
you about that, or was he helpful or was he just feeling? Claude was super
helpful. Um,
his personality, he's always been like, he doesn't really talk about stuff
, which ultimately kind of led to the demise of the relationship,
unfortunately. Um, but he's like the stoic kind. Like when the going gets
rough, he's just, you know, there. He's quiet and he's strong. And you
know, but that was great, you know, in those kind of situations, it's
great. So he ended up going with Max because I obviously was worried too
that they would like switch him in the room or something. You know, I just
wanted to make sure that he was going to be OK, you know, and Um, so yeah
, he, he did well, but I to this day, I don't really completely know.
Like how he felt, because he's not really, he doesn't really talk about
his own feelings that much. Um,
But you know he was there, he was present and he was strong. Um, And I
mean, he was like super. Duper excited and in love with Max right away,
you know, and and that was really cool. Um, I can't believe you went to 8
centimeters on Potoso. Because Pittosin is so intense.
Yeah, I don't know what to compare it to God. Well, I think that you're
right in saying, because I made 4 and I was like, right, right. Yeah. But
they say that one of the things is that that natural build, you know, like
Mother was saying she was cooking and doing stuff. It's like and then you
also have this excitement and anticipation that builds. The body surges,
so you're kind of more emotionally prepared for pain because your
excitement levels really high. You've been getting all this oxytocin and
hormones. And when you're getting that Pitocin, it's like from 0 00 yeah,
yeah, yeah, I think what happened is with the dilation, I think it was
like I wasn't dilated enough and then I think it went from like 3 or
whatever the You know, there's a certain rate that they don't want to give
you the epidural yet because it's too early. And I went from that to 8 in
like, I think it was only 15 or 20 minutes. Like it was like really fast.
Like it took a really long time and then all of a sudden it was like, OK
, let's go. And um And I think it so it kind of took everybody by surprise
, you know.
So were you, um, had you had a family history? Did you have a family
support network or did you have a certain expectation of what your birth
process is gonna be? Well, I, I thought that, um, you know, I thought it
was gonna be natural at the birthing center, you know, and, um, so it was
completely the opposite. Um,
But
I don't know, and I wrestled with that, I think, you know, later at the
time I didn't really wrestle with it too much because. I just wanted to do
what was necessary, but later on I wrestled with it because it wasn't. You
know, cause I think like as a mother, there's that pressure, you know, to
Make it look good, you know, like the ideal mother has a natural birth and
breastfeeds for at least a year, and there's all these pressures now to be
like this perfect. Mother, and I think kind of letting go a lot of that
stuff because Max also didn't end up latching on very well because they
ignored my um instructions and gave him a bottle and a binky before he was
able to breastfeed for the first time. And so that kind of and then we
even went to see like a lactation specialist and all that stuff later to
try and fix it, but it just, our stress level, you know, and after the
birth that we had had, our stress level was probably pretty high anyway,
like post-traumatic or whatever. And um our stress level just kept rising
because of him not being able to get the food that he needed because he
wasn't latching on right and me being in pain. Um, that finally I just
decided no, it's not worth it. I'm just gonna, you know, I'd rather. We
bond And
You know, really get the opportunity to bond and relax and recover from
this experience rather than just, you know, you must breastfeed at all
costs, you know, and I'm still to this day, I'm happy with the decision
that I made for that, you know, um, but I did beat myself up about it for
a really long time. And I was like, OK, I choose sanity, you know, because
it really got to that point. I think it was at one point where Max and I
were both, like he was screaming at the top of his lungs. We were sitting
in the car like we were on an errand or something and I was trying to
breastfeed him in the back of the car and he was screaming because he
couldn't get milk and I was like crying and Getting angry because like,
you know, my breasts were hurting and, and because he was freaking out and
you know.
It was just impossible. I was like, no, screw it. I'm not, I'm not doing
this, you know, and.
I think it was good, but there you know. I think that's a good way of
putting it because like. Um, a lot of times people that have very good
breastfeeding experience, like my mother talks about how it is this
bonding thing between mother and child, but there's also the flip side of
that, how it actually prevents bonding if it's not going well. It inhibits
it, I think, because all this frustration and emotional turmoil is not
letting you enjoy being with your child. Yeah.
Yeah, so I don't know, I think the whole. Experience overall was like an
exercise and letting go. Of You know, previously held conceptions, um.
And and just kind of surviving and just making making it through, you know
, and um. You know, I don't know if other people. That have like more, you
know, traumatic kind of births that experienced it this way, but. You know
, um, and I don't know if maybe it's, you know, because I am like by
nature somebody that likes to sort of control things or maybe we all as
human beings try to control things, you know, because in my everyday life
, I'm not really somebody that's constantly trying to control things. I'm
kind of the opposite way. I'm maybe a little bit more too laid back about
stuff. But when it comes to like that the big pain and things like that, I
really thought that if I can manage this experience, that it'll be less
painful for me. And I think it was kind of a big surprise for me that you
can't, you don't have any control over this. And it was weird for me. I
think one of the hardest things for me was honestly seeing my um the Max's
dad see me at such a like a raw, vulnerable
um
Oh gosh. It's like another person seeing me completely without anything in
between, like with no pretenses. Like I've always, I don't know. I've
always thought that I was somebody that can be really emotionally open and
I'm a good communicator and you know like, oh yeah, I can be so vulnerable
in a relationship and it really taught me that no, I'm not really You know
, like if somebody like I felt after birth, I felt like he saw too much.
It was weird. Like it felt kind of strange, not physically so much, but
Well, I also kind of felt like, yeah, maybe he shouldn't have been in the
room. Like maybe in the 50s and 60s, maybe they had it right, you know,
like you just kind of, you know, you have your child and you go through
this messy experience and, but the father of your child doesn't really
know, you know, just, you know. That you were just like kind of
temporarily insane and you know, your guts were hanging out and you know,
it just felt so raw like maybe I could handle my mom seeing that, but I
don't know, you know, anybody else for that matter, not somebody that I
Cause I've never seen that side of him, so it's like kind of a weird
balance even. Like you've seen everything there is to see about who I am.
But I've never seen who you are. I don't know. I think that's very
poignant, I do, because you're right, you just by the nature of that
experience and who has it, which is the female, you know, unless that
changes, um, yeah, that you're exposed in a different way. Yeah. I also
think that idea of pretenses is interesting too, because it's like You
know, we were just talking about labels, you know, you know, regardless of
how punk or how cool you are or anything, labor, you're not a punk, you're
not, you're not, you know, a hipster, you are a woman giving birth and
that is just transcends all of that, yeah, yeah.
So did you have kind of some similar thoughts about those things? Yeah,
I've never really talked too much about other women. That's why this
project is actually going to be interesting to um you know, read about and
see. Um, because everybody's experiences are so different, they are. But
then some of the things that are similar are surprising, you know, which
has been really interesting. Like we hear women talking about body image
and um and then there's of course the situation of control, lack of
control, because we're kind of taught that we can control this. You can't
really yeah. You know, and how um how you can have a bad experience, but
if you go in it with the right mindset, it can make it a good experience
in a way, right, right. But if you go in there with this expectation of
having a particular experience and you end up getting something very
different, sometimes that's really traumatic. Yeah, yeah, I think so too.
Yeah. It's like how you reframe it in your mind, right? Yeah. And it's
been interesting too because we have found similarities and then what we
really found a lot of differences because each person is such a unique way
of interpreting their experience. This isn't just like a journalistic kind
of catalog of and this happened and then 3 hours later I did this, you
know what I mean because it's like a personal interpretation of it. So in
that way it's they've been very unique. Yeah. I think maybe.
I don't know, it's just me being, you know, waxing philosophical about
about this, but.
Maybe it also shows, you know. how comfortable you feel with yourself and
how much you love yourself as a human being just at that very core
experience. You know, like you said, we can be punk rock, we can be a
hippie, we can be into this, we can be into that. But when you're in a
situation like birth, um, our own birth, actually, when we're born or the
birth of our children. Um, or death, all those things are completely
stripped away, and I think those are the only 3 times. In your life that.
You know, any of any of the outside stuff, any of the images are
completely stripped away and you're absolutely naked.
So yeah, maybe it kind of boils down to, you know, how much do you really
love yourself? I don't know, you know. But I think It's taught me a lot
about myself, you know, and. I overall, like, even though it was like, you
know, a stressful experience, I, I don't know, maybe birth is always
stressful, you know, unless you're, you know, lucky enough to have a
really relaxed like home birth kind of a thing. But you know, overall,
it's like. It's a traumatic process for your body to go through. I mean
people die in childbirth. Um, it's pretty raw. And so in a way, it's life
changing, you know, and
I don't know, it feels good to talk about it, actually. Cuz usually you
kind of shove it away into the back of your mind and you just kind of
carry on. Yeah, I found that I really needed to talk about it and I didn't
think that anyone really wanted to hear about it because it would be like
, 00, do you have a C-section? Oh, do you have a natural, how many pounds
was he? And then conversation ends, you know, but not a lot of this kind
of where you really are. Giving meaning to your experience, your
experience is meaningful other than just bringing life into the world.
It's meaningful. It was meaningful to me other than just, not to say just
, but other than bringing my son into the world because it meant more than
that to me, and it is the self-discovery, I think that's part of the um.
Yeah, I think, um, that you're right that birth and death are always
intertwined. You know, and in your case, truly, you know, it was like
death was in the room at the same time that life was. Yeah, yeah, it sure
felt like that, yeah, at one point anyway, yeah, definitely, um.
Yeah, so then in a way kind of like working through those things and
coming to terms, you know, I think it affected me for a long time
afterwards actually, um, because, you know, like when, when they're little
, you know you go through that experience and then and then life begins.
And so you don't really have that time to sort of Take a spa break and
reflect on your experience, you know, it's no like you're fully propelled
into, you know, what it means to be a mother and you know, long sleepless
nights and you know, all the work that it takes, um. And so you don't
really have a chance to integrate that. That event, that major life
changing event, and um I think maybe now. I'm, I'm finally getting the
chance to really think about it more, you know. Um, but like I remember
like the first year when Max was a baby, I hardly slept. Like I never
slept deeply and you know because I was so afraid of SIDS, I was so
traumatized by him almost dying at birth that I couldn't relax. You know,
I was just constantly on the defensive, you know, like Just It was, it was
kind of crazy, you know, but I did have a friend whose kid had some health
issues, and she had him about 6 months after me and she also went through
the same thing. Like she didn't have any sleep and you know and it was
like this ongoing kind of trauma thing that was going on, you know, and,
and I think that even though like. There was tons of happiness in there,
you know, but there was, it was also a really stressful time, you know.
And uh Only now that Max has grown up, I kind of feel like this year for
the first time, I kind of feel like I can.
Sort of let go, you know. It's like he's grown. I'm not.
This sounds weird. I'm not legally responsible for him anymore, and that
sounds strange because as a mom, I'm always gonna feel responsible and I'm
always going to be connected. And I still worry about him, and I always
will, but There's something about him being an adult. Like I don't have to
worry if he misses curfew, that the police are going to show up by my
house, you know, things like that. I feel like because he's legally his
own person now, I feel like it's a cue for me. To do the right thing and
kind of let go more and have more maybe the kind of relationship with him
that his dad does, which has always been like, hey, buddy, what's up? You
know, and lets him do like super permissive, you know, and it's like, oh,
it must be so nice, you know. I feel like for the first time that maybe I
can do that a little bit more and and kind of it helps sort of let go of,
you know, all the the weight of the the responsibility that as a. As a
mother that you kind of feel on you, you know.
When I, I remember, you know, being pregnant and just and I read
everything about that could go wrong and could go wrong after he was born
, and I just kept feeling like every fucking milestone was like this
mountain I had to climb up and over, up and over and over and over and
over and over again and be like. You know, because he was really like to
turn over, but he was like super fat, so I don't think he could leverage
his weight,
right, right. Is he gonna turn over? When's he going to turn over? He was
late to talk. Why isn't he talking? Because he have, you know, autism or
whatever things and now I feel like I'm plagued by these like, you know.
Those rules, yeah. So it must be part of that too, that like you've made
it to adulthood, you're functioning like, oh my God, it's like we somehow
made it, you know, even though all of my screwups and all of my, you know
, we somehow like, here you are standing in front of me, a fully grown
adult and I'm and I'm proud of, you know, I'm proud of who he's become
like. You know, I've definitely have not been the perfect mother, and I
don't know if a perfect mother exists, you know, because we're so flawed
as human beings. And um but you know, you do, like you read all the
children's books and um You know, with conflicting viewpoints. And so
finally, I think at one point when Max was like, I think after the what to
expect when you're expecting after the first year, and then I kind of
looked at the 2nd and 3rd year one and finally I just threw it in the
trash because I thought, no. You know, I have an instinct and I've got to
go with what my gut tells me. Otherwise, I can't ever say that I went with
what I thought was right. And so I'm going to make a lot of mistakes, but
those will be my mistakes, not because I listened to some stupid book that
told me what to do, you know. And you know, I think he turned out all
right at the end of the day, despite me, you know. So, but I know what you
mean with those milestones, um.
You know, I think my mom was worried about me because I didn't talk until
I was 2. And you know, here I am like gabbing away like there's no
tomorrow, you know, it's not necessarily an indicator of. The kind of
person that you're going to be once you're grown. And I think my niece
also didn't talk till she was about 2, maybe even 215. They were really
worried. And she is, she is bright, she's creative. She has great empathy
, and she's going to study. She's got great grades. She's going to study
at university here next year and um she's an actress, she's going to be an
actress and stuff. They're learning more and more that kids process
information differently. So it's like, you know, a lot of times there's
people who are kids. Is that when they're learning to speak, they're
practicing speaking, but then there's other kids that are learning by just
absorbing for long periods of time and then they finally let you know what
they've learned. But you know
we just don't accommodate difference very well when it comes to developing
and stages and stuff. Um, so when you think of like creating imagery.
Related to your story, what are your thoughts? Or have you said anything
today that is kind of like you? Well, without giving, you know, right,
yeah, it's kind of like, you know. A lot of times when, when I start a
painting, I have, well, actually, usually when I start a painting, I have
something in mind and it changes as I'm working on it. And sometimes quite
drastically, you know, I think for me when I like think about the whole
Process visually. It kind of feels like a tangled bloody mess on one side
and this sort of clinical aspect on this other side. And it's kind of a
division so visually I kind of see a line between that, maybe even two
panels or you know some, which I'm kind of, I tend to be fond of, you know
, I think you saw when I did stuff before with the independent study I
like. Putting things together somehow, you know, like little portions of
paintings and sometimes I find myself cutting up old stuff and kind of.
You know, hm, this is an interesting area or whatnot. Um, so I kind of see
these sort of. Two opposites in there. And you know I kind of, I come from
more of a figurative background, but I've been moving a little bit more
into abstraction lately, so I kind of, you know, I want to sort of see
what happens with that. And so I'm going to, you know, start playing
around with some stuff here pretty soon and I've got, you know, like a
starting point in mind. Of, you know, a blood and guts and. You know,
veins and.
You know, um.
And we'll kind of see, it might still totally change as I'm working on it
, because that's kind of like, yeah, that's, I started, I'm working on
this, this other painting right now that, you know, I've kind of started
with one idea and as I was working on it and I'm like processing
information that's Things I feel strongly about that are happening right
now on the planet and everything like I just had this idea, well, I'm
gonna make this totally different. I'm gonna add this and it's gonna be
this whole other thing. And that's just how my process has always been, so
it sometimes takes me a really long time cause I've never been like OK,
I've got this idea. This is my sketch, and these are my photo references
and I paint this somehow that's not it's always been kind of about the
process, you know. There were some things that you said that I thought
were really visual when you saw the connection between you and him. And
that bond and then of course this play between opposites like life and
death and this kind of reality of it like rawness then that pristine
clinical surgical to that space too. But there was a point that where we
talked about the relationship between you and him when he was looking at
you with those black eyes, but I thought there's something there too,
visual, even though it is maybe quasi figurative, but
you know maybe way of integrating. Some of the that whatever that is
visually to the abstraction, but that was really poignant, that thing
where you said he wasn't quite there you know like that that distance
because it seems like, yeah, yeah, I like that. Yeah I did too. I mean it
sounded like you were about to say it and then you didn't quite say it,
but it was like he was in. Some other like he was in the greater universe
, you know, he was still in this like yeah, like as if he was still in the
stars and he hadn't arrived yet. I was seeing in his eyes just like the
expansiveness of the entire universe,
and yeah, that was really. I guess that was really poignant for me, and I
remember actually when I was a teenager, I took LSD a couple times and.
had a really bad trip one time and and the trip was basically that I was
like a black hole in the universe and I couldn't get out of this thing,
but it was like this image of me just being star stuff or whatever, you
know, like that um we are made of star stuff, um.
It's not Richard Dawkins, it's uh.
That other guy that writes all the books about science and it's not, is it
Richard Dawkins? It's just a physicist. Yeah, maybe it is Richard Dawkins
. I forget. Max gave me the book and um but he has had a quote, and you
guys maybe have seen it on like Pinterest or on t-shirts lately because
it's like we are made of star stuff and I've always You know, it's funny
because I actually like a while back, thought of doing a whole series of
paintings of, you know, either like people floating in the universe on
chairs, um, or like where you have the outline of figures, but then
Instead of actually there being flesh, it'd just be stars like the
universe. And then recently there of course have been people like it
always happens with ideas if you don't do it early enough. Other people do
it eventually because those ideas sort of, yeah, yeah, it's a collective
unconscious or whatever. People have similar similar ideas and some
friends of mine actually did paintings like that and I was like, Dang it,
there goes my idea again. But um you know,
well, it's just there I think so too with just the black eyes, because
there is something unusual about I mean it's not unusual, it's very usual
because it's every child, but their eye color doesn't come in for like
almost a year. It's like a long. Time and it's at least 6 months. So for
the 1st 6 months, every kid has the same color eyes. That is really odd.
It is weird. They haven't quite developed as a person yet, although I
really feel like August is who he is with my belly, but it's almost like
something that's so individualized hasn't been individualized yet. Like
that personal stamp hasn't.
Yeah, and it was weird because Max actually, until, you know, I don't know
if you know you guys believe in past lives and I'm kind of like on the
fence about all that myself because I'm like, uh, anything's possible, you
know, in life. But um, he used to have like these really intense dreams um
all the way up until he was about 3 years old of him being like covered in
bullet holes and like me riding in a jeep with him and taking care of him.
He was like mortally wounded. That was before he ever even saw like army
or war films or anything because he was so little. And so I was like, What
is this all about? Does this mean anything more? I don't know. There's
just a lot of mysteries. 3 in telling you that stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I
remember like I woke up in the middle of the night, one night, he was like
, he woke me up. He was like, Mom, mom, and I just saw him sort of like
almost sleepwalking to this mirror that we had in the bedroom. And he was
just like toddling over there and he was like standing in front front of
the thing. I think he was like 315 and he was like. Look us up in the
mirror and was like going like this, and he said, This isn't me. Where are
the holes?
And then the following night, and I was like, Max, it's OK. It's OK. And
woke him up and kind of soothed him back to sleep. And the next night he
was screaming in his sleep and so or crying in his sleep or something, and
I woke him up and and um and I was like, what's going on? And he was like
, we were in. A car. And there was blood everywhere. And you were taking
care of me. Well, he said Jeep, so he must have seen a Jeep before by that
time. I don't know, he said Jeep, so. I was like his doctor or his nurse
or something and I was like saving his life. I don't know it was weird.
Maybe he did see something and that I'm not aware of. Maybe he saw MAS at
his like great grandparents' house or something, you know, I don't know,
it might not be mysterious, universal, but It, it, but it does kind of,
you know, when they are born and they have that look, it does kind of make
you feel like there's something. Bigger
And just this, I don't know. Yeah, well, we've been separating things into
themes, and I think yours is very much connection. That's what I was
thinking because you were talking about the word like 3 times. Oh wow,
interesting bond and. Um, but we also talk about celestial bodies, but I
think connection is good. But anyway, yeah. So yeah, maybe one of those,
either of those two. We'll see what the artwork looks like and then maybe
that can help. I can't wait to see everybody's stuff that we were just
going through it today. I think I'm going to go ahead and turn this on. Is
there anything else that you want to say about the experience or to
summarize? Because people say all the most interesting things as soon as
that gets turned off. Oh, I know.
I think overall, I think, even though maybe just to summarize, even though
it was an intense and traumatic experience and
I probably won't, you know, at this point in my life, I probably won't
ever have this experience again.
Um It was the most amazing thing ever and I don't regret it, you know, for
one minute. It was a positive thing, you know, um. I don't know how
interesting that was, but I think to summarize, because I know I went, we
were talking about the trauma of the whole thing and it's like it's easy
for the mind to get stuck on the trauma, but you know trauma can also get
you really good things. And so even though it's intense, it's like not a
bad thing, I don't think, you know, I think it's just like
As a society, we're just not comfortable with things that are out of
control and raw, and you know we're not like the Amazon tribes that just
go squat in the forest and have our children. Maybe you know if it wasn't
so dangerous just to have your baby alone out there by yourself, like I
kind of it feels like a more sort of a Natural In touch way to have your
kid, you know, I don't know. No, but yeah, anyway, yeah, I think that's it.
I think you know it was good. That's exactly how well I'm good.