This is Boris Solis, um, interviewing Kristen Larue Sandler for Creative
Push project at 3:20. I can't return on August 15th. OK, let's go ahead
and get started. All right, so um why don't you take me to like set me up
the circumstance of the first fur and if there's anything kind of
memorable about it or like something that would situate us in time, it's a
hot summer or
um. So my first child, um, easy pregnancy, I was very healthy, and I
remember thinking, Gosh, why does everyone complain about being pregnant?
This is so not a big deal. And, um, which I would later with later
pregnancies find out. Oh, right. But anyway, um, so I was in my early 30s
, um, so this is November, beautiful weather, not hot, um, and I actually
was even doing a musical theater show about 4 weeks before my due date,
doing dancing. So I was, it was just, I don't even know. It was a
completely different time in my life. Um, so, um. The we did a a series of
classes about natural birth. Um, because I was very committed to doing
this, yeah, very holistic. I didn't want to do the the tub. I considered
it, but there wasn't, there weren't the facilities, and I did want to go
to a hospital in case whatever. Um, I did use a midwife, uh, and it took
me a while to find someone I liked, but then I did, and she was amazing.
Um. So I, my water broke in the night. It was actually past my due date.
Um, I had gained 50 pounds, so I was pretty miserable by that point, but,
um, up to then, no problems. Um, so I immediately went into really hard
contractions, um, you know, 0 to 60 in within like 15 minutes and. Um,
what happened is I got up to go to the bathroom and all of a sudden I was
like, whoa, OK. Here this is. So I ran and somehow, I don't know if I
jumped. I don't know, but anyway, I made it to the bathroom before
everything came out. So it was all over the, the floor, and I remember
just being like, OK, OK, here we go. This is it. And um Uh, my husband was
sleeping and. And I, you know, I remember having it was like 2 in the
morning and I remember just saying hey, because I didn't want to walk over
there. It was all drippy and I was like wake up. He was sort of like
anyway, finally got him to wake up and then he jumped up and was all ready
and immediately started um dutifully writing down all the times. That
everything, you know, every contraction, uh, which was super annoying
cause I just wanted him to just focus. Anyway, so I got in the shower. I
don't know why. I was just like, I have to take a shower. I guess I wanted
to be clean. I don't know. Um, so then my parents had flown in the day
before to be there and so went and woke them up, went to the hospital. Um
, at some point we let the midwife know. Anyway, got there. I was just you
know the contractions are really close together, um, very, very hard. I
couldn't I couldn't speak during them. I vomited and I was like, Oh, I'm
probably in transition. This is like this is intense. And So they checked
me out and I was at like 2 or something. And I was like, you're kidding me.
So anyway, fast forward a couple of uh miserable hours, so it's probably
like 9 a.m. And I, I was so. Miserable, and I was still like contractions
one on top of the other, so close together. I was at like 5 centimeters or
something and. And I could not do the breathing thing. I, I didn't, I had
not internalized what that meant and um you know, I just hold my breath
during every contraction and I was doing these contortion things with my
body, so every muscle was already just hurting and they kept saying
Kristen, relax and I was just like, you guys relax, this sucks. So um.
Let's see, so eventually, so about 9 a.m. I just, I was so desperate and I
was so exhausted already and I was not making any progress and I think I
don't remember all the details about facement and whatever, but there was
some stuff where one side was was doing its thing and the other side was
hung up. And so it's just I was fighting my body, my body was fighting me
and I just said, I think I want I think I want some drugs. I think I want
something. And so this natural birthing method that I had um done had
encouraged the spouse or the partner. Um, to talk you out of asking for
medication. And so he did. He's like, it's going to harm the baby, you
know, they do all the stuff, the baby's going to be a drug user, you know
, all this guilt. And and I was so wracked with indecision and I was so
miserable and I was so angry. And finally one of the nurses grabbed my
face and said, This is your decision. And she's like, Look at my eyes
because I was like, and I said, OK, give me the drugs. And so, so they did.
So I got my epidural and then everything was OK. In the meantime though,
my husband left. I don't know where he went. He was just so angry and I
was so hurt and felt abandoned and I could not believe that that my
decision that that decision. Made him leave. And, and I think I never
forgot that actually. Um, we had a lot of other issues in our marriage,
obviously, which I can talk about later, but um. But that was a big one,
and my mom stayed but couldn't believe that he had left. And anyway, so
the rest of the labor progressed fine. Me having an epidural actually
enabled me to relax and things started moving again. And so, um. So yeah,
it took, took a little bit longer first baby, um. And then probably
because I was relaxed, I think they had to give me Pitocin yeah they did
but um but things went normal and then um then they did let the epidural
kind of wear down so I was pretty well feeling everything by the time um
it came to push and at some point. I was almost ready to push but not
quite and so my midwife who was managing another birth at another hospital
, said, you know what, we're just going to let you labor down. I'm gonna
go run to this other hospital because this girl's ready to go. So she did.
She left and, and I don't know how she was how long she was gone. I mean
it was maybe it could have been 1 hour, it could have been 2 hours, it
could have been 45 minutes. I don't know. But it was the longest period of
time ever because I, I mean, I was ready, but I was just kind of still,
you know, but then I finally started to learn this the breathing and that
kind of place that you have to go to sort of get through and it's just
that deep inside place, sorry, now I'm getting emotional. But um So she
got back and I think I pushed just a couple times, head out. She's like,
OK, we got it. You know, we've got a blonde baby. OK. Just one more push.
We'll get the shoulders out. And then the baby got stuck. Um her
shoulders were wedged in my pelvis somehow, um. And at that point I was so
just spent and just ready to be done, and she had said one more push. so I
was like, what? So all of a sudden the midwife shouts like Mick Roberts
maneuver, it's some special um thing where you do the series of jury
rigging the baby to get the baby out so you don't have to do um forceps or
you know any of the other crazy things. And so literally the nurses jumped
on the bed with me. And um they're like, close your legs. So I was like,
what? And so one started pushing on my Deli, um, I don't know what the
other ones were doing. That was the one I was really conscious of. But
then they all knew what to do. And so, and I, I knew that I was conscious
of the um. Midwife doing all this stuff down there. And then all of a
sudden she's like, OK, she's out. And then I could hear in her voice a
sort of um. Kind of almost a panic like, OK, OK, she needs a little help.
OK, we might have hurt her shoulder, all right, so.
I was slightly worried, but I had this sort of knowledge that it would be
OK and that she was OK. And maybe I was just so relieved to have her out.
I don't know. But um. She she did start breathing, um, just right after
that, they were about ready to go do something because she didn't, she
wasn't didn't took a while to breathe. And then um They were worried about
her shoulder since that they had yanked on it, and it was totally fine.
She started moving it and that was fine. And I do remember when they put
her on my belly. And she looked at me, and there was just this knowing in
her eyes. I mean, her eyes were open. They weren't that like newborn thing
where they're all caked together and whatever. She just looked at me and I
said, Oh, hello. I mean, it was this person, not just this little blobby
thing, when she was 8 pounds, 6 ounces or something, so she was pretty
good sized, ready to be there and ready to join join the world. So, um,
The hardest Part about that except the whole trauma with trying to decide
about medicine was then the postpartum period. I I had focused so much on
um the birth you know we've done all of those classes. I sort of forgot or
not forgot, but I didn't know. How hard it would be to then bring a baby
into my life in my home and change everything. That was one of the bigger
transitions for me was um. I like I wanted to run away for 3 weeks. I
remember thinking. I could just leave her, leave her with my husband. Yeah
, they'd be OK. Yeah. And I didn't. It was sort of this um. Back door that
I kind of was like, OK, I have that if I can't do this. But it was very,
very much like that in the sleep deprivation and just nursing, I did not
go well for me. Um, and I ended up pumping for like 6 months, but we
stopped, I stopped having her at the breast in a couple of weeks because
it was just torture. Um, But anyway, uh, eventually recovered and I for
quite a while, I said I'm never doing that again. I'm never. Ever having
any more children. Um, That was so traumatic. And I don't, and and I
really thought I wasn't gonna live through it in the middle of it. I
thought, I just wanna die. Just, I don't care, cut me open. Just was not
prepared for that. The pain in that sense of you are the only one who can
do this. No one can, you know, unless you have a C-section, no one can
help you. You have to push this baby out. And That was a that was a huge
thing for me. Um, I didn't feel. I didn't feel powerful afterwards, um. I
felt sort of ashamed of my asking for drugs, um, my sort of inability to
like. I wouldn't say we didn't bond. I think we did, but just my
resentment of, oh my God, I have this baby and I just want to go to the
store by myself, you know, or go to the bathroom without worrying and just
and that sense of. Of I'm so tired of worrying about this other creature.
Um, I don't know if you read one of the poems um that I sent you talked
about just this new place in your your mind or your heart that just sort
of aches, at least that's how I experienced it of.
Maybe it's, you know, how people say you always worry about your children.
And I didn't want to worry about anyone else, you know. Um, But
eventually one day I remember stepping outside and. Um, going for a walk
with the baby and thinking. OK, I can do this and. And I I accepting, I
guess, accepting that the fact that there was this human being who is
dependent on me.
And, and I was going to have that, that ache and I would be OK. And then
it lessened and you know it was I was way less anxious as time wore on,
but um I think it took accepting it first before it could. Become anything
beautiful or. Um, or anything to bear, so.
That was beautiful. That's definitely one gorgeous. I would separate that
out. That was that was an incredible story. It was such an incredible
storyteller.
Thank you. I guess that's why you have the incredible.
Thank you. Thank you. You really laid bare so many things that I think
that women go through and that we don't talk about. I mean, I was
so when I told my story too, I was saying that I felt like enslaved. I
just You know, when my husband could poop when he wears shower when he
went to run out of the house and do things, and I just felt like, why are
you autonomous still? And now I'm like a slave to this other creature and
emotionally too. I would I would take a minute to myself to go to a store.
And then I would call and be like, How's it going? I hear the baby crying
in the background. I would just start weeping and like, I can't even just
enjoy this. The thing you've been craving and been like, This is what I
want to do, and then can't even just enjoy that few minutes because you're
tethered, you know. No, it's so true, and I cannot believe your husband
left. I know. Did he ever come back? He did. He did come back. I don't
remember how long he was gone. Get the fuck out of here.
I was, but I was so focused at that point that I just sort of shut down
and I shut him out and my mom was there and I do remember um. Describing,
he's like, you wouldn't listen to me during the labor. It's like, you
wouldn't listen to me. Exactly. Yeah. But I remember saying, You know what
? I couldn't hear you. All I could hear was my mom's voice. It was
something very primal, something so comforting to me. I mean my God, I'm
so emotional. Sorry. Um,
But it was something very, very primal and. It's what I needed to get
through. And I knew she'd done it, you know, with 3 children and uh. So
yeah. So I didn't listen to him, I couldn't, and it was, it was OK.
Did you were you able to forgive him? No, I don't think I ever did,
because I don't think he ever really got it. Um, and we eventually got
divorced um for the same kind of Reason, I mean, it's it all went to the
same thing that um.
He can't separate out his his own stuff from. And and a control thing and
and it's a power thing. It's just it's whatever. We're friends now, it's
fine. We were just not good spouses and. Um It becomes clearer to me, he's
even happier now that we're divorced, and even though he didn't want to
get divorced and every day since, you know, he regrets everything, but. I
know it was the right thing and and I feel like that was a moment that I
really saw.
What it was about, and it's hard to articulate even what that even means,
but. Anyway, So, so my second, I was describing, I'm sorry, I forgot your
name. Ashley. OK, take a minute. OK. OK. Yeah, we're in no hurry. OK.
Oh my goodness. Yeah, I mean, you know, in a relationship that clearly. It
is a complicated thing, but you could see how that's like a marker of
someone who's not you guys aren't communicating and he's not respecting
your needs. He was not up to the task of being the man. I mean, it's like
he wanted to be in there giving birth. Um, and you know, there's, I think
there's all that could could uh.
Deconstruct him or psychoanalyze him, but um. He never could really step
up to that. Place we we fought over things that in my brain were like he
was wanting to be the mother all the time and I was like I'm the mother
you go be the man. I get to do this part you know and so he always wanted
to control the stuff that I was supposed to be doing. And that was just
sort of a symptom of it. Was he controlling the breastfeeding? Yeah. I
mean, and he was trying to be supportive and he was very sweet sometimes,
but it was more like, if he could have done it, he would have. What's the
easiest way to control right? Yeah, exactly. Just, yeah, and he absolutely
would have if he could have and I probably would have let him, but uh. You
know, the poem is gorgeous. I think that we could somehow tie the poem
into a visual art piece too with your permission. Oh yeah, whatever. Like
I said, I never published it and I don't think I'm even going to shop it
around in art.
I know. I know a local artist that uses a lot of text in her painting. Do
you, have you ever heard of Kay Spear? Anyway,
OK, I'm gonna make a note, pull up her work for right about to say, yeah,
that'd be great. Be like, you know, collaborative piece on that would be
wonderful, um, whatever you need.
Wow, that was really intense. So how old is your daughter now? She is 7.
Yeah.
Um, do you want to hear about the second? So, um, and you kind of start
that too, you know,
the new marriage. This is still the other marriage, we were separated at
this point, um, after. We went through some periods of infidelity, both of
us, and. Um, at some point separated but we're still living in the same
house just until we could figure out how we were moving forward. I had, we
had our little girl, um, can you for a minute, can you say my husband and
I, my husband and I. OK, that's the works. I think actually can cut that
and put it in the front. OK, OK. So my husband and I were separated.
Um, And
So I had filed for divorce, um. We were just waiting For that whole
process and I actually had a date. This night. And um. I had a lot of wine
to drink. And um.
It's just I'll try to sum it up. Basically this guy wasn't as interested
in me as I was in him and I just remember thinking, what? I'm not sure why
um why I thought I, I don't know, I was so desirable, but um anyway. So I
was sort of feeling miffed and. Apparently I was ovulating and um I don't
know if you want any of this in there, but um. So I went home, it was a
little tipsy. My husband was already in bed, Baby was in bed, she wasn't a
baby by then, she was 3. And Uh,
I crawled in bed with him. And we had a wonderful time.
And um.
We hadn't been together for 6 months. Um,
So then the next day it was sort of like, oh my god, what did we do? He
was all really happy, he thought it meant we were getting back together. I
was like, well, that was a mistake, um.
So that was that, and then a few weeks went by and I just knew, I knew I
was pregnant. And I took. An early test, it was pretty early. I mean, I
think it was like 4 weeks.
And you know, the pink line was there and I was just like, No, are you
kidding me? So, um.
I called a friend.
Uh, and just said, I'm in trouble. And um. So She invited me over for
dinner. She's a single woman and um a teacher and. She didn't have
anything going on anyway, and so I went over to her house and we had this
beautiful dinner from her garden, I remember, um, and I just felt like
there was so much.
Fertility, like the earth and everything sort of came together and she's
like, I think you're going to have this this kid. And um And she said, and
I knew that she had had an abortion, which is part of the reason that I
went to talk to her because I was like, I don't think I can do this. This
is this is a mess. And she said, um, you know. Yes, I did that, um, but I
don't think it was the right decision for me. And she's like, and I know I
know you.
And I don't think it's the right decision for you. But you have to, you
have to decide, but just know. And um So, and I didn't know, I knew that I
couldn't, I couldn't. And the pregnancy, no matter how inconvenient it was
, um, so I finally told um. Uh, my husband at the time. And So he begged
me to keep it and I said, I think I am. I don't know this is complicated.
Um, he's like, even if we're not together, I'll, I'll I'll take care of it.
And I was like, that's ridiculous.
But he it was that same sort of motherly role that he always wanted to
take on. And So I decided to um. Go ahead with the pregnancy and. Um, Made
my my appointment. Uh, with the, the mid same midwife that I uh had had
for my first daughter who was, um. Gonna just soon to turn 4. And Uh, so
we went and since I was older, I was. 39 Um,
And uh I was doing I was spotting a little bit. They said, let's just do
an ultrasound, make sure everything's viable, and this was at like 9 weeks.
And so we're in the in the ultrasound and. I did see these two little
white dots on the on the screen and I was just thinking, oh. Maybe that's
the placenta or I don't know. They're kind of like waving around. And then
she says, there are 2 babies in here. And I remember thinking. No, no. No
, that's not possible. And then she's like, yep. There are 2 babies in
here. And then my husband just started laughing. He's like, I knew it. And
I said, How did you know it? But he just, he thinks when things are ironic
that he has some foreknowledge.
That's obviously not the same thing, but um. So So twins, um.
So the pregnancy was actually really uncomplicated, um. I had about a
million ultrasounds just because again I was older and there were twins.
And everything was fine, perfect. And I made all these plans because I had
a couple of other friends who had had twins and they were on bed rest for
several months or had all these issues and ended up having a Cesarean. And
so my mom came out early and I started working from home several months
before my due date even. Which was probably a good thing because I could
hardly even move, um, just between how gigantic my belly was and just the
swelling. I had carpal tunnel syndrome, I had cankles, like crazy. Um, I
remember sitting on the stairs one day. And I guess I just sunk into my
hips, but they locked and I couldn't get up. I needed help. I felt like
one of those uh morbidly obese people that they have to move around with a
crane. I could not move. It was terrible. I hemorrhoids. I and I really
started to feel for people who are either sort of bedridden or in chronic
pain because I was such a bitch and, and I was so miserable and. I was
like I'm not a good patient, I would not be one of those people who
overcame their their physical limitations. I would just be a jerk, so. Um
, but the pregnancy continued. And was fine and I kept thinking, I kept
asking, are you gonna put me on bed rest? I just wanted an excuse to stay
in bed. They're like, no, no, you need to be moving around and you're
doing great. So, um. They require you to visit a couple of the doctors in
this practice that I was seeing the midwife again and. Um, just because
there's a chance that you might have a C-section, and so I did, and one of
the doctors actually recommended that I schedule a C-section. She said,
you know, even if you're able to do the first, a lot of times that second
baby is so hard to just push out or if they're breech or whatever, then
you have to go through labor and have a C-section. Which sounded very
scary to me, but um, so then I thought, oh gosh, maybe, of course, this is
what people do, I guess. So I went back to my midwife and she said, no.
You can do this. She was um Welsh and when I first started seeing this,
this, it was actually a second midwife in the practice. When I first
started seeing her, I couldn't understand a word, she said that her accent
um was just crazy. And then all of a sudden it was like one day I just got
it and she's the kind that just says, Oh, for fuck's sake, and all this,
she swears like a sailor. She's hilarious and she just, she's no nonsense.
So she's like, No, you can do it. You can, you can push him out. And
she's sort of like, anything else? It was just not even a discussion. So I
said, OK, so, um. Got to full term and finally it was well it was 39 weeks
full time for twins I think they consider like 36 weeks and apparently
there's some magical miraculous thing that goes on where twins' lungs
mature faster than a normal or a single single pregnancy because they're
so often born early. It's this really amazing. Wonderful thing. So. Um,
anyway, so I got to 39 weeks and I just said, I just can't, I'm done. I
can't do this. I can't walk. I can't, I can't go to the bathroom, you know.
And so, so they scheduled me for an induction. And um I was already as a
couple centimeters dilated already and so they did a um. Prostaglandin
thing. And they said this is gentler and um then we don't have to do
Pitocin and it should just get you started and then you'll be good to go.
If it doesn't, we'll go a little more. So, um.
Was it inserted into your vagina inserted, yeah, and which was very
painful. I just thought it would be like a tampon, but they're like
fishing around and they're hooking onto something. I was like, oh my God,
it was the worst part of the entire birth was that. And, um, so we went in
, this was at like, um, 10 a.m. we'd gone in at 11 and did all the stuff,
and so my husband was there and my mom was there again. And um And so then
they said, OK, you know, get some sleep while this thing works, they had
done one more ultrasound to make sure both babies were head down and they
were so. There we were. So my mom and my husband went to sleep on this,
they had some couches in there, this really large room. And um so there I
was. I don't I, of course I can't go to sleep. And the contractions
started right away, but in a gentler way, but um but uh they were there.
Um, and so it's like 2 or 3 a.m. and I just started texting people. I
don't know what I was thinking. I turn my phone off at night, but other
people don't. So I have this guy friend who was awake or I awakened. I'm
like, Hey, I'm in labor. Everyone else is asleep. He's like, OK, I'll keep
you company. So we just texted back and forth for a few hours and um we're
still friends, never never forgot, you know, he was the only one awake
with me while I was in labor. So eventually. I had to go to the bathroom
and I was like, OK, we, this is happening and um. So I did, and then I
could hardly walk back to the bed and I woke everybody up and said, OK,
and the nurse came in and said, I guess your water already broke and we're
here we go. So. Um, at this particular facility, they, uh, require you to
give birth to twins in the operating room. In case you need to have an
emergency C-section, and I was already planning an epidural anyway. Um,
Because of my first experience, I thought, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to
mess around. Let's just do this. And that's what they recommend anyways,
so that they can just do what they need if if uh if there's an emergency.
So, um. I had to wait that the anesthesiologist was busy with someone, and
of course, it seemed like 2 hours. It was probably 10 minutes or something.
But um, so I had to labor.
You know, without drugs for a little while again, and it was hard labor,
sort of the midwife said it was literally off the chart, so it was pretty
hard contractions. I mean, here's this giant uterus, you know, it has to
shove out two babies. Of course it was massive. But that was, I think, you
know.
My first time not just being completely undone by the by the process of
labor. And Um, I remembered the end of of the. My first um delivery where
I had found that place and so I went there again. And, and it sucked, but
I was there. And then finally the anesthesiologist came in and um got my
epidural and And then I felt great and everything went very quickly and
rolled me into the operating room, but my mom couldn't come, only one
person and, and my husband had to suit up in scrubs and. Um, oh, but since
they had taken a while for me to get the epidural, the midwife said, Do
you want something else? I can give you something else to help take the
edge off, and I was like, yes, this is crazy. And so I don't even know
what they gave me, gave me some narcotic probably, but oh my gosh, between
that and the epidural, I was so loopy, um. So I just remember getting
ready to be like, OK, I have to push, and I was so sleepy that I could
hardly keep my eyes open as I was pushing. It was crazy. But um. But so
first baby was outed. Like 5 minutes. Her name's Anika. And the other baby
was way up by my ribs. And on my left side, and so they said Jamie, that's
my husband's name, just push her over. And just then pushed down on her.
So I could see, so I had this half floppy belly and then this taut portion
over here. And so they pushed her over and started pushing her down
because you know she'd been up here the whole pregnancy. Well, my other
baby was down here ready to come out. So she took an hour. So I had an
hour of pushing with her. Just trying to get her to where she was supposed
to be. Everything was already stretched out and crazy, but I do remember
after the first after the first baby came out, just got to hold her and be
like, oh my gosh, she's so beautiful, and she looks different than my
first baby, whatever, and then they're like, OK, hand her over. Got to do
this again. And I just I couldn't even believe it, just it was just too
insane. And so, but again, I'm so loopy, it's probably good because
otherwise my brain would have just exploded with. Non-comprehension.
So finally got her pursed out. Um, she was great. So they had told us they
would be identical twins, but when they first came out, they were
completely different colors from each other. My first baby was very red.
The 2nd baby was very pale. And they seem to have different hair colors.
Now they don't, and everything's identical. I thought, well, they were
wrong. They are not identical. Um, they were in the same um uh let's see.
They had one placenta. The same corn, which is apparently the outer. Like
an outer sack, but then two different amniotic sacs. So, um, So that's how
they can kind of tell if they're going to be fraternal identical. However
, the placenta can fuse, fraternal twins always have two placentas, but
they confuse, so sometimes it's confusing. Anyway, it had led them to
believe identical. So, um, anyway, I was confused how they could look so
much different, um, Bridget, my second, uh, twin. Uh, was a little
sleepier and uh she needed a little more um. They had to feed her some
thing to kind of get her going. She wasn't quite as, I don't even know
what their Apgar scores were, and I'm just was glad that they were there
and out. Um,
The placenta was gigantic. I think we took a picture of it. I, I just,
it's like the size of a whole another baby. It's crazy. Um, but I had to
feed two babies for 9 months, um. So about that experience, the thing that.
That I kept being amazed by was just what the body can do. I mean, one
baby, I felt like almost broke me. And then and then and then I had 2, and
because they were not my first, it was easier, my body knew what to do. I
was a little looser everywhere. But I also had been through so much and I
knew myself better and I and I. Being able to do that, being able to push
them both out.
Convinced me of. Just the sort of power of womanhood and of the female
body that is just Completely mind blowing at what what the body can do.
And what women can do and have been doing without drugs for millennia. And
um you know, I get a little help from drugs and that makes it even better.
Um. So my mom this whole time had been waiting, uh, because she couldn't
come in and she was crying and and at this hospital they played um little
chimes every time a baby was born so she heard the first set of chimes
right after I went in and then nothing for an hour. And she thought I had
been taken in for an emergency C-section and. So then finally she hears
this other set of chimes and and um. And then they finally, I forgot to to
have someone go tell her, so finally someone remembered. Um, oh, your mom
was here, she probably wants to know, so they went out and told her and
she was so relieved. Um, and then they wheeled me out and then um.
Recovery was even easier than my first baby. Once I got through like just
a couple of first days of my belly being so gigantic, I had to kind of
hold it up and I remember standing in the bathroom in my beautiful
hospital gown sneezing. And I almost fell over cuz you know how your your
muscles contract as you do that, well, my muscles were out here. And And
they contracted and I just almost fell over and had to grab onto something
when I was sneezing. And I thought, well, There's that. So how much weight
did you gain with the twins? With the twins, I gained 60 pounds. With my
first, I gained 50. So it wasn't that much different, but the twins were
over, um. 6 pounds each, so. So they were about 6 1/2 each, so that's 13
pounds of baby plus whatever the joint placenta weighed, plus all the
water weight. Um, so and it all fell off very quickly. I think I lost 40
pounds in 3 weeks, so it was just total water
um a lot of loose oh my, so much, and my belly is destroyed to this
destroyed, and I've since learned they call it twin skin and
when I showed one of my friends who also. Know some know someone with
twins and I showed her and she said, it really is like a deflated balloon
because that's what it looks like. It's this looks like the surface of the
moon or a balloon that's just had all the air taken out of it and it's all
lumpy and it's so strange.
Um, so I felt really strong and amazing after that, probably because of
how hard the pregnancy had been. And I guess I should have mentioned that
at some point during the early pregnancy, my husband and I decided to make
a go of it. With the marriage, and I actually had emailed the um. Man who
was preparing her divorce papers and said. OK, just throw them away. um,
we're gonna try again. I'm pregnant with twins and we're gonna, we're
gonna see and he wrote back the sweetest note something like, you know,
well, I think he's like, I, I don't believe in God, but someone's trying
to tell you something. It was a very sweet, very sweet thing. Um, So
anyway, so we stayed married and he was very helpful and there was no
temper tantrums in the delivery room. And I remember telling him that day
just how proud I was of him and um. He did learn a lot after after the
first experience, um.
And then I don't know, do you want me to talk about the next one? Maybe
even talk about how the marriage shifted over time,
take a break. I'll get OK, thank you.
Yes.
So, um, when the twins were about.
8 months old.
Um, Keep in mind we had been sleep deprived for almost that entire time.
We had a sleeper trainer come in, um.
And that was helpful for about a month. She'd just come twice a week, so
we got uninterrupted sleep two nights a week. The rest of the time was
literally. Up someone every 2 hours there were 2 babies who were not good
sleepers and they both had reflux and you know they were even though they
were full term and good size for twins, they were still very little and
and the sleep trainer said they actually kind of acted like preemies, um,
they had a little harder time eating. um, I gave up on breastfeeding after
two months with them and pumping too. I just, I couldn't even find time to
pump between just trying to feed them. And take care of my other little
girl and, um, and then, and I do work full time so I went back to work
actually as soon as I could because I felt like I was going insane. um I
just needed a break, so.
Um, life got back to somewhat normal, um. So the, the twins were were 8
months old or this is the new normal, you know, they're still not sleeping
through the night, but we at least kind of have a routine. Um, And my
husband tells me one day that he's been having an affair and was gonna
leave. And for the first time in the marriage, it totally blindsided me,
the other times I had seen it coming. Or, or, you know, or I had gone
outside after that had happened, and so it was, it was my decision, but
this time I thought we were good.
And so. I just was really devastated and. And really angry and um.
Never recovered, even though we did eventually decide to stay together. He
wanted to um. You know, stay married. I just wanted to stay parents in the
same house. I made him sleep on the couch for like 4 months. Um, there's
some pictures from Christmas that year where you see the little couch bed
in the background. It's kind of sad, um, but I, I was done with the
marriage, but I literally could not figure out how to. Um, live, you know
, take care of two non-sleeping twins, work full time, and then have my
other daughter, my husband could support himself. He decided to cut off
ties with this other girl, but I didn't really, you know, believe him, and
I thought I just, I don't even want to invest in trying to believe him
anymore. Or trusts and Um, so, so we stayed together, but in my mind we
were done. We never went to counseling, um. I made, I made him go. That
was a condition of him, of me not kicking him out and made him go on his
own, but then he just quit eventually, um. And uh I didn't even care at
that point cause I, I knew I was done. I was just sort of waiting for a
time that. I could feel like I could survive. Either some circumstance
would change, or I would get a different job, make a little more or
something. So
what was your head like? You had just had twins eight months ago. Your
body's totally transformed. You're probably trying to just get back to
feel like a woman again, and you find out your husband's sleeping with
someone. Yeah. Well, I felt completely hollow. Um, literally, because I
still have this extra skin on my belly, there was no nothing in anymore,
you know, and. Um, And of course I I knew who this girl was who had been
who he'd been sleeping with and. She's gorgeous and skinny and. Yoga body
, you know, stay at home mom. So she works out a lot and I don't know, you
know, so of course that just made me question, but. But there was a gift
in that I was really, really angry.
Which took me over this hump, and it felt like justifiable anger, you know
, not that I had been perfect and not that I haven't made mistakes since
or whatever, but I just was like, you know, this is not what I want
anymore and I know this. I can't get out now. But I'm done. And
And I think I stopped caring really about him. Um, and about the marriage
, and I had stopped trusting, I think a while ago, but I, uh. I don't know
, we had decided to make a go of it, so I kind of set that on the back
burner, so. Um,
So fast forward a few months, we were still together, um, but things were
bad and there was a lot of um. He was very angry and no one on the outside
saw that um he would punch walls he would um scream at me um always wanted
something from me that I couldn't give um and and in my mind you know I'm
like I'm done here. I'm just here to survive until I can, I mean it was
more of a like financial I didn't have anywhere to go my family's
somewhere else they're in Montana, um. And then my family has been
supportive of me, although they were just like, I don't know what's going
on in your drama life. So, um.
Let's see, so in about um. The fall of the next year. So this is about a
year later after his affair, and I'm still just kind of going through the
motions. Um, the twins finally started sleeping through the night about 3
months before that, so they were literally a year and a half. Um, before
they slept through the night. And all of a sudden I just had so much
energy, mental energy, physical energy, and I was like, holy crap, I am
alive again. I forgot. I didn't even notice I wasn't alive.
And um there was this man at work who had always paid a lot of attention
to me and um but he was married. So he separated from his wife and um. On
one day after a particularly difficult time with Jamie, we were still
together, but I think he'd done like a leaving in the middle of the night
wall punching thing or something. I kind of just told him my story. I had
no intentions of doing anything and I was like I'm not getting on that
train wreck again, which is, you know. Um, But we were open with each
other, um. And that was that. Uh, so he started coming around a lot. I
tried to set him up with some of my friends. I knew he was newly single
and uh he actually went on a date with my hairdresser and then, um. She
just was like, I don't know more of you. So he came back and told me that
she didn't want to go to dinner with him and. And uh he was so
disappointed and I was like, oh, trying to figure out how to get rid of
him cause I just, I could tell he was interested and I just didn't want to
go there. I like, I just, I don't want to do this. Anyway. I did go there
, um. And At first I was just like. This is just to keep me sane because
this person gets me and um I'm not, we are so different. He's a. Um, He
studies film and he was always in LA and live this kind of fast life and I
don't, I don't want anything to do with that. And I and I just was like,
he's sweet, but it's just, I just, I know who I am, I know what I want and
that's not the life I want and this is not going anywhere. This is fun. Um
, but it quickly turned into more, and I realized, oh my gosh, I really do
really I I fell, fell in love with him again, still thinking.
This is not going anywhere. Um, We slept together. Condom came off. You
can guess What
What transpired from that because apparently I'm the most fertile person
on the face of the planet. It was literally the 2nd time we were together.
And
And I just remember even being like, oh shit. I knew what was gonna happen
because this is what happens with me. So, um, I took the morning after
pill. And um
My hair got really curly. I have straight hair and I remember being like,
that is weird. OK, but then I never had any of the side effects. I was a
little like PMS feeling. And then I stayed PMS feeling. And my breasts
were swollen and then I didn't get my period and I was like, are you
kidding me? So took a test. Positive pregnancy.
And I just literally couldn't even. So the twins are only 1 year and a
half at this point. And I felt like I had barely physically recovered. And
so I called. Him, he's now my husband. I called him and just said uh. Hey.
Pregnancy test is positive. He was just like, What? How is that possible
? You took the thing. I was like, I don't know. But maybe maybe it's just
a false positive. Maybe it's all these hormones I took, blah, blah, blah.
So we went to the doctor. I went to the midwife, who the last one who said
I could push out the twins, um, the Welsh one. And she just was the one I
got and um. Said we're in trouble. Um, and here's what happened. The
baby's probably not even viable, right? And she's like, oh no, she's like
, my morning after pill baby is 15. So.
She said the baby's just fine, and yes, you're pregnant. And she said, you
know, and I asked her about abortion. She said, no, um, or she said,
here's the information, but just think about it. Just don't do anything
too rash. How far along were you? I was like 6 weeks.
So my husband, my now husband. Um, was separated, but not divorced yet
from his wife.
Who was clinically depressed, which was. 95% of why they were getting
divorced, um.
And um she hadn't worked forever.
Um, so basically. He'd already moved out. He was living somewhere else,
but he they were still together, um, because of insurance. She wasn't
working or working very little, couldn't support herself. So he was paying
for the house and insurance, and she was in the house. He was just living
with a friend. Um, so, He and I just, we just talk, um, we're a mess.
Everything's a mess. I'm still living at home. No, he doesn't, my husband
doesn't know anything. I think I had told him at this point that I.
Wanted a divorce that I was at least getting out of the marriage and we
were going to figure it out. That was all I knew. I didn't tell him about
the pregnancy. And um, so.
We find we decide my now husband and I decide. Let's have this baby. Let's
do it. And Uh, of course, there's a lot in between that, but um. I knew it
was the right decision. We were both ecstatically happy, and he said, you
know, I need to tell um. I need to tell my wife and we'll, we need to
finish this off with the paperwork and. And I was like, yeah, and I have a
lot to do on this side, so let's go to it. So he told his wife not that um.
There was a pregnancy, but that. Divorce divorce needed to be final, and
he had met someone. And she committed suicide that night.
So Um, Keep in mind she was clinically depressed, had been in an
institution. I mean, later on, he found a bunch of, you know, notes and
emails and she'd been planning, she wrote to her friend I started planning
my suicide in September. Um, And and just, you know, so depressed and so.
Not, uh, in a good place. Um, anyway, that did not make it easier for
anyone, although, um, Kevin, my husband says he was so prepared for so
long because every she was always like threatening to kill herself. And
that's, he actually had her committed that spring before because he was
afraid she was gonna do it and um.
So anyway, um, so.
The week, the week after she killed herself. I I barely saw Kevin and um
and I was just like. What is going on? How, how can I have this baby? This
, I have, it's like I have blood on my hands, you know, this woman is dead
because of the decision we made. Although, you know, I know that's not
true. But In my hormonal state, and it was so fresh and so horrible, um.
So, I don't know, there's so much, there's so much else, but basically, um
, they had the memorial service. Her family came down, um, her older
sister. I named Dominique, she's French Canadian from Quebec and um.
I saw pictures of her at this memorial service and she just had this
beauty about her. And no one blamed Kevin, my husband, even her father,
his ex-wife's father, was just like, You did as much as you could for as
long as you could. We know it was only a matter of time. Everyone said
this to him. No one blames him. And they're like, we just want you to be
happy. We know this has been so hard. And so, um.
That came and went, and um the day after Christmas, it became clear I
needed to get out of my house. Eventually I did tell my husband I was
pregnant and. It was pretty ugly, so I um told Maggie. That I was gonna
Live somewhere else, um. But it would, she wouldn't really notice because
I. Came home at 5 a.m. and was there and then I left at like 10, so I
would go to Kevin's. So I stayed in a room. In the guest room, Kevin with
Kevin. She had committed suicide in their bedroom. She took pills. He
owned this house. I literally had nowhere else to go. And so, um, I never
went in that room. I wouldn't even walk over the threshold. There was just
such an oppressive darkness in that house, and I I was just like. If we're
gonna do this, you have to get rid of this house. I can't, I can't live
here. I don't think you can live here. Um, And so he did, he sold it and
we rented a house and, um, eventually I finally moved, my parents came and
moved me and um.
And then eventually I got, you know, we had to start completely over. I I
brought nothing with me. All my husband has all my furniture, so I had to
get, you know, two cribs for the twins, a bed for Maggie, everything,
sheets, towels, like everything, which was so crazy. And, um, but
eventually we got everything and, uh, so they stay with me during the week
and, um, with their dad on the weekends. Um, took me forever to get
paperwork done. So in July. Of 2014, I finally. Got divorced. And, um, I
was due August 5th, so it was the middle of July. Finally, it was final,
which I was sweating it. I thought, oh my gosh, I'm gonna have this baby
and be married to someone else. And my also I should make clear, my
husband had had a vasectomy and we had not been together. So there was no
chance it could have been his, you know, of course, people asked and
speculated and probably Kevin's family was wondering, but I knew, I knew.
Um, So
The we decided we were gonna get married and so we just waited a little
bit to clear our heads and. Um, his parents came to visit. My mom came and
then we're like, OK, let's do this on this Monday. And then we realized it
was my old anniversary, so we couldn't get married on the same day. So we
got married the next day, which was the due date, but you know, she stayed
put and um.
Uh, so we got married. I was gigantic. Um, the pictures, we, we were at
the JP, you know, the pictures of my twins, my girls were there all three
of the girls. The twins just look shell shocked. Maggie, my oldest,
they're not smiling, they're just like what is happening? Um, it was crazy
, so then we had just like a pita jungle dinner. And um That night I went
into labor, my water broke. The night the night of the wedding. So 2 a.m.
kind of like my first birth, first delivery, um, water broke, and I was
like, no, I just wanted one more night of sleep.
So, um, anyway, my husband has an issue. Well, he did have an insomnia
issue, so he used to take sleeping pills. And so he had, of course, had
taken a sleeping pill and it was hard to wake him up. But he finally got
up and, um, headed to the hospital, um.
And uh Got there and I was kind of the annoying like, oh, well, let's make
sure you're in labor.
And I was like, and they're like, OK, you are. I said, Yes, I told you I
was. This is not my first time around the block. But um, anyway, I got in
there and I was like, yep, I'm on drugs, we're just doing it and uh.
Everything went really fast. As I was getting my epidural, um, my husband
fainted, so that was kind of the dramatic thing about that birth, um.
Probably because he had taken the sleeping pill and he hates needles. So
I remember sitting on the edge of the bed. The needle is literally in my
back and I see him start to just tip over and I reached for him and they
were like, no, don't move and I would be like, all right, all right, I'm
not supposed to be moving and so like with one hand, I don't know the
nurse had her hands on some kind of something and with the other hand she
caught him and was like screaming, I need some help in here. So these
people rush in smelling salts, whatever, put him on the floor and I'm
sitting there. Getting an epidural kit watching and I was like, really.
But it was sort of another one of those moments like men are so stupid.
He has one job and that is, he was sitting in a chair. I have a needle in
my back and I'm in labor, and he passes out. I just couldn't even believe
it. And so, and I don't mean men are stupid. Men are wonderful, but it
just convinced me of how strong women are just in general. You know, I
don't think they, they don't let men in the epidural room anymore. They
don't, no. I'm surprised they let him in there and they actually made him
sit down. Isn't that fascinating? Yeah, because and now I see why they
don't let anyone. So maybe it's like it doesn't matter if it's your mother
or they might think that that's another thing they have to. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. And now that's probably a good idea because, yeah, yeah. So, um.
The rest of the labor went very quickly, um, so I started, I was in labor
at 2, while I work at 2, she was born at 8 something. So that was very
quick for me because my first was 19 hours. Of torture and this one was
before I got the epidural was, I, I totally knew how to do it. I totally
knew how to ride the wave of pain. I totally knew where to go. And it was
beautiful, and it was horrible, but it was beautiful and um. And uh I got
the Welsh midwife. And um. She was awesome and no nonsense and. We just
like, ah, push this thing out, you know, she's just so dispassionate
sometimes, but um, anyway, so baby, she's beautiful, um. So, and we
decided to name her Dominique, which is the sister of his former wife.
That sounds weird, but I met, um, Dominique and. She has the most
beautiful soul, and it was sort of a way to bring things. Full circle, um
, and acknowledge that it felt like there was sort of an energetic swap,
you know. Dominique has said her sister was um like a broken vase. Just
there was always something wrong even from when she was a little girl.
And um.
She always struggled and never really wanted to be on the earth. And so.
When she decided to leave the earth, this creature, we decided to keep
this other life on the earth. So that was sort of that's kind of how we
got through those first weeks for sure. And um. I couldn't decide on names
um forever and my husband is Jewish, uh, you know, from from Detroit um
was raised uh in a born again household in rural Montana and I'm just sort
of nothing now but uh we're from these crazy different cultures, you know
, and. We would come up with the name and Kevin would tell his mom and
she'd say, well, that's not Jewish and. And and I was like, why does it
have to be Jewish, and then, you know, so then when I told my mom,
Dominique, she's like. What's Dominique, what that's not, we're not French.
So, it's so bizarre. So it's just our own thing and it was our own
decision, and she just is, that is who she is. That's who the baby is and.
Um, my husband calls her Baby Doe. Which is kind of horrible, but it's
stuck and um so everyone calls her baby down. Anyway, so that is kind of
the full circle of how for girls. Um, came to be members of this planet.
Um,
And uh none of them were easy and birth is not easy. But now and I was
just thinking again today. How, you know, they start from just, I mean
they start from nothing, from two people being together and then I just
they turn into people. It's just I can't fathom it sometimes, but. That's
that's my story. Wow, can I actually, I'm gonna ask for even more
information. So when you were pregnant, can you talk about that pregnancy
at all? Like, did you gain a lot of weight? Were you sick a lot? No, well
, at the beginning. I felt, um, at the beginning of this last pregnancy, I
felt very sick and very tired, um. And I don't think I actually threw up
at all. I just, it was that general feeling, is it malaise? I don't even
know how to say it. It's a French word. But um And I, and I was going back
and forth between houses, um. And I just remember thinking, I just can't
do this, this is, what am I doing, you know, this is horrible, and I
remember I would um sleep in my office every day. At least 15 minutes. I
just set my phone alarm and then there was a couple of times when I got so
sleepy on the way in, I took a nap in the parking garage before I even, I
pulled my car in and I had to sleep. It was horrible. And I remember
thinking. I'm homeless And you know, living in a house actually not
homeless, but with the soul of a dead woman and pregnant and I'm sleeping
in the parking garage. It was so desperate and so horrible, um, and then
that finally went away kind of gave way to that the second trimester like
relief, um, I wasn't sick anymore and the pregnancy was fine. It was a it
was a good um. Wasn't an easy pregnancy like my first one. And I think
after the twins too, everything was just. Just hurt more and it was
already not in great shape. So, um. Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't do a
whole lot, but I mean, I was fine and I felt fine, didn't have any issues.
Did you gain as much weight? No, I think I only gained like 35 pounds.
Probably I think my first one too, I wasn't underweight, but I was, I was
very trim and um. It didn't hurt me to have a little more padding, but so
with this last one, you know, I had the extra that I had never lost from
the twins and. Um, And yeah, I just didn't need. I never, I never kept
track of my weight other than to come, you know, think, oh, OK, here's
another however many pounds. I was never worried about it. My doctors or
midwives, no one said a thing ever about it, which was nice because I know
some women who. Either religiously kept on top of it or their doctors, you
know, would not allow them to gain. I just think it's crazy. I know, you
know, 50 years ago that was the case. They thought that. It was really bad
for both mom and baby to gain more than 25 pounds or something and, and
then moms would like not eat or I just could not even believe the things
people did to themselves. Um, so now I just 35 pounds and. And funny, so I
I I gained the least with this baby and had the hardest time losing it
afterwards, um. I mean, I'm, I'm fine. I'm not. Like super overweight, but
I could still lose about 10 pounds. You also at this point you're older
and you have 3 children, yeah, I turned 40 and I have 3 children,
including twins who were 2 at the time. Yeah, there's no me time. Our
house is crazy. It's great. My my ex and I are good friends, which I could
not see coming, you know, even a year ago. But he actually babysits every
day because he gets off an hour earlier, so he relieves the babysitter,
she leaves, and so he babysits our our baby whose nephews and then the um
the twins and then uh and then the seven year old and uh so we get home
and uh. Sometimes we all have dinner together. We actually even all went
to on vacation sort of together this summer. I mean we all went to Montana
, left the kids with my family and with Jamie, and then we went on our
honeymoon a year later. So, um, so it's this weird reality show ish life.
Um, and I'm so relieved to have a dramaless, um, existence cause it seemed
like forever there was something crazy happening and Um, so yeah, I really
need to write all this down, but only little pieces have made it into,
into words so far. No, it's incredibly intense and it's, it is amazing
that your first husband and you are friendly now. I mean, there seemed
like there were times where maybe. Was when you told him you were pregnant
, was he like violent? Were you scared or anything or was it not like that
? During our marriage, yes, there were times he was violent and I was
afraid, and a couple times I actually left um and stayed somewhere else
for a period of time because of that. Um, when I told them I was pregnant.
There was none of that, um, his initial reaction was he actually gave me
a hug. And he's like, is it mine? Even though there's no way it could have
been. I said, no, it's it's really not. Or he said, Is there any chance it
could be mine? And I said, No. You remember you had a vasectomy. Um, and
we weren't together, like, you know, in this last little bit and um. So no
, in between, um, as he got used to the idea, there were some outbursts of
anger and that was partially why I decided, OK, just I need to move out
now even though I don't have a place to go and have to live in this crazy
house and. Um, whatever, so, um. Because there was some not good stuff,
but um, how were the kids during all of this? Did they meet? is it Kevin
Kevin? Yeah, they love him. Maggie, let's see, was 5, no, I don't know, 5
at the time, 5 or 6. And um I have to give my ex um credit he. He helped
explain like mommy and daddy have decided to not be married um mommy has a
friend she's gonna live with and then a couple of weeks later, oh mommy
has new has a boyfriend and they're gonna have a baby so it was kind of in
her brain at the time.
I don't think she was really conscious of the the how condensed this time
was, although I think there was a lot of processing that she did later
because she had a really hard time. Um, mostly she missed her dad when she
was at my house and. Um, but she loved Kevin and immediately took to him
and he is, I don't know why he's, he's, well, he's 46 now. He was 45 at
the time. He'd never had children, but now, you know, he has 4 girls and
he's such a natural father. Which is amazing and just took to it really
naturally, I mean, there have been days, you know, but. Um, the girls call
him Kev Kev. I don't know where that started. So the other day, Anika, one
of the twins, was saying, I love my mommy and I love my daddy and I love
my Kev Kev and I love my sisters, and it was so great because they don't
remember. The twins do not remember at all before Kevin, they don't
remember me living at the other house. We call it Mommy's house and
daddy's house. It's totally fine with them. This is reality to them, but
Maggie. Does remember she's my oldest and she um. But she's definitely
made peace with it and um.
I think it helps just this crazy weird arrangement that we have where
there's no there's no tension. There was, of course, at the beginning,
which is probably why it was so horrible, but um, yeah, it's, it's pretty
ideal. So when did you guys get a new place, a new house, or a new? Um, so
we're renting and right after he sold. Um, Kevin sold this. His other
house, he, we just started looking for a place to rent and we found this 4
bedroom. Monstrosity in East Mesa and um that's where we are, which is
literally 2 miles from my old house, which is where Jamie lives and I, I
just signed the house over to him. I mean, I just, I didn't, um. I didn't
want anything, I just want to be done, I just want to be out. And so now
I'm like, oh, I probably could have held out for something, but um. But
I'm still glad the way everything worked out so that. Uh, I know there's a
saying, it's better to eat bread in peace than cake in turmoil, and I tell
myself that all the time. It's so I forget Slovakian proverb or something
, but. Um, It's not that important to me. And I'm really glad about the
way everything came. Can That's a great ending. That's excellent. OK, I
think we'll start there.