WEBVTT

00:00:00.550 --> 00:00:05.705
 This is Boris Solis, um, interviewing Kristen Larue Sandler for Creative

00:00:05.738 --> 00:00:13.536
Push project at 3:20. I can't return
on August 15th. OK, let's go ahead

00:00:13.569 --> 00:00:19.625
and get started. All right, so um why
don't you take me to like set me up

00:00:19.658 --> 00:00:23.186
the circumstance of the first fur and
if there's anything kind of

00:00:23.219 --> 00:00:26.706
memorable about it or like something
that would situate us in time, it's a

00:00:26.739 --> 00:00:29.855
hot summer or

00:00:29.888 --> 00:00:37.888
um. So my first child, um, easy
pregnancy, I was very healthy, and I

00:00:38.868 --> 00:00:42.396
remember thinking, Gosh, why does
everyone complain about being pregnant?

00:00:42.429 --> 00:00:47.065
This is so not a big deal. And, um,
which I would later with later

00:00:47.098 --> 00:00:50.856
pregnancies find out. Oh, right. But
anyway, um, so I was in my early 30s

00:00:50.889 --> 00:00:58.889
, um, so this is November, beautiful
weather, not hot, um, and I actually

00:00:58.899 --> 00:01:03.945
was even doing a musical theater show
about 4 weeks before my due date,

00:01:03.978 --> 00:01:07.826
doing dancing. So I was, it was just,
I don't even know. It was a

00:01:07.859 --> 00:01:15.859
completely different time in my life.
Um, so, um. The we did a a series of

00:01:16.400 --> 00:01:20.596
classes about natural birth. Um,
because I was very committed to doing

00:01:20.629 --> 00:01:25.477
this, yeah, very holistic. I didn't
want to do the the tub. I considered

00:01:25.510 --> 00:01:28.236
it, but there wasn't, there weren't
the facilities, and I did want to go

00:01:28.269 --> 00:01:34.837
to a hospital in case whatever. Um, I
did use a midwife, uh, and it took

00:01:34.870 --> 00:01:39.076
me a while to find someone I liked,
but then I did, and she was amazing.

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Um. So I, my water broke in the night.
It was actually past my due date.

00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:51.775
Um, I had gained 50 pounds, so I was
pretty miserable by that point, but,

00:01:51.808 --> 00:01:56.977
um, up to then, no problems. Um, so I
immediately went into really hard

00:01:57.010 --> 00:02:04.135
contractions, um, you know, 0 to 60 in
within like 15 minutes and. Um,

00:02:04.168 --> 00:02:06.816
what happened is I got up to go to the
bathroom and all of a sudden I was

00:02:06.849 --> 00:02:11.755
like, whoa, OK. Here this is. So I ran
and somehow, I don't know if I

00:02:11.788 --> 00:02:15.547
jumped. I don't know, but anyway, I
made it to the bathroom before

00:02:15.580 --> 00:02:19.995
everything came out. So it was all
over the, the floor, and I remember

00:02:20.028 --> 00:02:28.028
just being like, OK, OK, here we go.
This is it. And um Uh, my husband was

00:02:28.300 --> 00:02:32.305
sleeping and. And I, you know, I
remember having it was like 2 in the

00:02:32.338 --> 00:02:36.066
morning and I remember just saying
hey, because I didn't want to walk over

00:02:36.099 --> 00:02:41.305
there. It was all drippy and I was
like wake up. He was sort of like

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anyway, finally got him to wake up and
then he jumped up and was all ready

00:02:45.020 --> 00:02:50.616
and immediately started um dutifully
writing down all the times. That

00:02:50.649 --> 00:02:53.707
everything, you know, every
contraction, uh, which was super annoying

00:02:53.740 --> 00:02:58.106
cause I just wanted him to just focus.
Anyway, so I got in the shower. I

00:02:58.139 --> 00:03:01.946
don't know why. I was just like, I
have to take a shower. I guess I wanted

00:03:01.979 --> 00:03:07.356
to be clean. I don't know. Um, so then
my parents had flown in the day

00:03:07.389 --> 00:03:14.055
before to be there and so went and
woke them up, went to the hospital. Um

00:03:14.088 --> 00:03:20.745
, at some point we let the midwife
know. Anyway, got there. I was just you

00:03:20.778 --> 00:03:25.717
know the contractions are really close
together, um, very, very hard. I

00:03:25.750 --> 00:03:31.286
couldn't I couldn't speak during them.
I vomited and I was like, Oh, I'm

00:03:31.319 --> 00:03:36.495
probably in transition. This is like
this is intense. And So they checked

00:03:36.528 --> 00:03:41.406
me out and I was at like 2 or
something. And I was like, you're kidding me.

00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:47.297
So anyway, fast forward a couple of uh
miserable hours, so it's probably

00:03:47.330 --> 00:03:54.356
like 9 a.m. And I, I was so.
Miserable, and I was still like contractions

00:03:54.389 --> 00:03:59.555
one on top of the other, so close
together. I was at like 5 centimeters or

00:03:59.588 --> 00:04:05.085
something and. And I could not do the
breathing thing. I, I didn't, I had

00:04:05.118 --> 00:04:09.327
not internalized what that meant and
um you know, I just hold my breath

00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:13.166
during every contraction and I was
doing these contortion things with my

00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:18.286
body, so every muscle was already just
hurting and they kept saying

00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:26.137
Kristen, relax and I was just like,
you guys relax, this sucks. So um.

00:04:26.170 --> 00:04:32.377
Let's see, so eventually, so about 9
a.m. I just, I was so desperate and I

00:04:32.410 --> 00:04:37.567
was so exhausted already and I was not
making any progress and I think I

00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:40.455
don't remember all the details about
facement and whatever, but there was

00:04:40.488 --> 00:04:44.495
some stuff where one side was was
doing its thing and the other side was

00:04:44.528 --> 00:04:51.366
hung up. And so it's just I was
fighting my body, my body was fighting me

00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:55.926
and I just said, I think I want I
think I want some drugs. I think I want

00:04:55.959 --> 00:05:01.116
something. And so this natural
birthing method that I had um done had

00:05:01.149 --> 00:05:07.717
encouraged the spouse or the partner.
Um, to talk you out of asking for

00:05:07.750 --> 00:05:12.086
medication. And so he did. He's like,
it's going to harm the baby, you

00:05:12.119 --> 00:05:15.416
know, they do all the stuff, the
baby's going to be a drug user, you know

00:05:15.449 --> 00:05:21.887
, all this guilt. And and I was so
wracked with indecision and I was so

00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:26.846
miserable and I was so angry. And
finally one of the nurses grabbed my

00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:34.879
face and said, This is your decision.
And she's like, Look at my eyes

00:05:34.939 --> 00:05:41.637
because I was like, and I said, OK,
give me the drugs. And so, so they did.

00:05:41.670 --> 00:05:47.067
So I got my epidural and then
everything was OK. In the meantime though,

00:05:47.100 --> 00:05:51.705
my husband left. I don't know where he
went. He was just so angry and I

00:05:51.738 --> 00:05:59.738
was so hurt and felt abandoned and I
could not believe that that my

00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:05.995
decision that that decision. Made him
leave. And, and I think I never

00:06:06.028 --> 00:06:10.075
forgot that actually. Um, we had a lot
of other issues in our marriage,

00:06:10.108 --> 00:06:15.805
obviously, which I can talk about
later, but um. But that was a big one,

00:06:15.838 --> 00:06:20.846
and my mom stayed but couldn't believe
that he had left. And anyway, so

00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:25.765
the rest of the labor progressed fine.
Me having an epidural actually

00:06:25.798 --> 00:06:33.156
enabled me to relax and things started
moving again. And so, um. So yeah,

00:06:33.189 --> 00:06:38.015
it took, took a little bit longer
first baby, um. And then probably

00:06:38.048 --> 00:06:43.217
because I was relaxed, I think they
had to give me Pitocin yeah they did

00:06:43.250 --> 00:06:48.486
but um but things went normal and then
um then they did let the epidural

00:06:48.519 --> 00:06:53.366
kind of wear down so I was pretty well
feeling everything by the time um

00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:58.447
it came to push and at some point. I
was almost ready to push but not

00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:02.687
quite and so my midwife who was
managing another birth at another hospital

00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:06.645
, said, you know what, we're just
going to let you labor down. I'm gonna

00:07:06.678 --> 00:07:11.645
go run to this other hospital because
this girl's ready to go. So she did.

00:07:11.678 --> 00:07:15.616
She left and, and I don't know how she
was how long she was gone. I mean

00:07:15.649 --> 00:07:18.887
it was maybe it could have been 1
hour, it could have been 2 hours, it

00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:23.286
could have been 45 minutes. I don't
know. But it was the longest period of

00:07:23.319 --> 00:07:27.895
time ever because I, I mean, I was
ready, but I was just kind of still,

00:07:27.928 --> 00:07:33.286
you know, but then I finally started
to learn this the breathing and that

00:07:33.319 --> 00:07:38.526
kind of place that you have to go to
sort of get through and it's just

00:07:38.559 --> 00:07:45.486
that deep inside place, sorry, now I'm
getting emotional. But um So she

00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:51.967
got back and I think I pushed just a
couple times, head out. She's like,

00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:56.887
OK, we got it. You know, we've got a
blonde baby. OK. Just one more push.

00:07:56.920 --> 00:08:01.616
We'll get the shoulders out. And then
the baby got stuck. Um her

00:08:01.649 --> 00:08:07.666
shoulders were wedged in my pelvis
somehow, um. And at that point I was so

00:08:07.699 --> 00:08:12.346
just spent and just ready to be done,
and she had said one more push. so I

00:08:12.379 --> 00:08:17.346
was like, what? So all of a sudden the
midwife shouts like Mick Roberts

00:08:17.379 --> 00:08:23.866
maneuver, it's some special um thing
where you do the series of jury

00:08:23.899 --> 00:08:29.145
rigging the baby to get the baby out
so you don't have to do um forceps or

00:08:29.178 --> 00:08:33.625
you know any of the other crazy
things. And so literally the nurses jumped

00:08:33.658 --> 00:08:37.765
on the bed with me. And um they're
like, close your legs. So I was like,

00:08:37.798 --> 00:08:42.936
what? And so one started pushing on my
Deli, um, I don't know what the

00:08:42.969 --> 00:08:46.057
other ones were doing. That was the
one I was really conscious of. But

00:08:46.090 --> 00:08:50.486
then they all knew what to do. And so,
and I, I knew that I was conscious

00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:55.706
of the um. Midwife doing all this
stuff down there. And then all of a

00:08:55.739 --> 00:09:01.667
sudden she's like, OK, she's out. And
then I could hear in her voice a

00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:06.816
sort of um. Kind of almost a panic
like, OK, OK, she needs a little help.

00:09:06.849 --> 00:09:11.076
OK, we might have hurt her shoulder,
all right, so.

00:09:11.109 --> 00:09:16.616
I was slightly worried, but I had this
sort of knowledge that it would be

00:09:16.649 --> 00:09:19.696
OK and that she was OK. And maybe I
was just so relieved to have her out.

00:09:19.729 --> 00:09:26.596
I don't know. But um. She she did
start breathing, um, just right after

00:09:26.629 --> 00:09:31.196
that, they were about ready to go do
something because she didn't, she

00:09:31.229 --> 00:09:35.936
wasn't didn't took a while to breathe.
And then um They were worried about

00:09:35.969 --> 00:09:39.826
her shoulder since that they had
yanked on it, and it was totally fine.

00:09:39.859 --> 00:09:42.856
She started moving it and that was
fine. And I do remember when they put

00:09:42.889 --> 00:09:47.895
her on my belly. And she looked at me,
and there was just this knowing in

00:09:47.928 --> 00:09:52.616
her eyes. I mean, her eyes were open.
They weren't that like newborn thing

00:09:52.649 --> 00:09:56.576
where they're all caked together and
whatever. She just looked at me and I

00:09:56.609 --> 00:10:02.057
said, Oh, hello. I mean, it was this
person, not just this little blobby

00:10:02.090 --> 00:10:06.606
thing, when she was 8 pounds, 6 ounces
or something, so she was pretty

00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:13.427
good sized, ready to be there and
ready to join join the world. So, um,

00:10:13.460 --> 00:10:19.326
The hardest Part about that except the
whole trauma with trying to decide

00:10:19.359 --> 00:10:26.326
about medicine was then the postpartum
period. I I had focused so much on

00:10:26.359 --> 00:10:31.726
um the birth you know we've done all
of those classes. I sort of forgot or

00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:36.976
not forgot, but I didn't know. How
hard it would be to then bring a baby

00:10:37.009 --> 00:10:42.496
into my life in my home and change
everything. That was one of the bigger

00:10:42.529 --> 00:10:48.625
transitions for me was um. I like I
wanted to run away for 3 weeks. I

00:10:48.658 --> 00:10:52.967
remember thinking. I could just leave
her, leave her with my husband. Yeah

00:10:53.000 --> 00:11:00.157
, they'd be OK. Yeah. And I didn't. It
was sort of this um. Back door that

00:11:00.190 --> 00:11:06.157
I kind of was like, OK, I have that if
I can't do this. But it was very,

00:11:06.190 --> 00:11:11.037
very much like that in the sleep
deprivation and just nursing, I did not

00:11:11.070 --> 00:11:16.635
go well for me. Um, and I ended up
pumping for like 6 months, but we

00:11:16.668 --> 00:11:20.956
stopped, I stopped having her at the
breast in a couple of weeks because

00:11:20.989 --> 00:11:28.989
it was just torture. Um, But anyway,
uh, eventually recovered and I for

00:11:29.979 --> 00:11:34.596
quite a while, I said I'm never doing
that again. I'm never. Ever having

00:11:34.629 --> 00:11:41.885
any more children. Um, That was so
traumatic. And I don't, and and I

00:11:41.918 --> 00:11:44.885
really thought I wasn't gonna live
through it in the middle of it. I

00:11:44.918 --> 00:11:51.765
thought, I just wanna die. Just, I
don't care, cut me open. Just was not

00:11:51.798 --> 00:11:57.486
prepared for that. The pain in that
sense of you are the only one who can

00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:02.486
do this. No one can, you know, unless
you have a C-section, no one can

00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:09.047
help you. You have to push this baby
out. And That was a that was a huge

00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:16.307
thing for me. Um, I didn't feel. I
didn't feel powerful afterwards, um. I

00:12:16.340 --> 00:12:24.025
felt sort of ashamed of my asking for
drugs, um, my sort of inability to

00:12:24.058 --> 00:12:29.217
like. I wouldn't say we didn't bond. I
think we did, but just my

00:12:29.250 --> 00:12:34.206
resentment of, oh my God, I have this
baby and I just want to go to the

00:12:34.239 --> 00:12:38.566
store by myself, you know, or go to
the bathroom without worrying and just

00:12:38.599 --> 00:12:45.946
and that sense of. Of I'm so tired of
worrying about this other creature.

00:12:45.979 --> 00:12:50.746
Um, I don't know if you read one of
the poems um that I sent you talked

00:12:50.779 --> 00:12:55.986
about just this new place in your your
mind or your heart that just sort

00:12:56.019 --> 00:13:02.096
of aches, at least that's how I
experienced it of.

00:13:02.129 --> 00:13:05.486
Maybe it's, you know, how people say
you always worry about your children.

00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:10.836
And I didn't want to worry about
anyone else, you know. Um, But

00:13:10.869 --> 00:13:17.875
eventually one day I remember stepping
outside and. Um, going for a walk

00:13:17.908 --> 00:13:25.856
with the baby and thinking. OK, I can
do this and. And I I accepting, I

00:13:25.889 --> 00:13:31.025
guess, accepting that the fact that
there was this human being who is

00:13:31.058 --> 00:13:33.746
dependent on me.

00:13:33.779 --> 00:13:41.566
And, and I was going to have that,
that ache and I would be OK. And then

00:13:41.599 --> 00:13:45.515
it lessened and you know it was I was
way less anxious as time wore on,

00:13:45.548 --> 00:13:52.726
but um I think it took accepting it
first before it could. Become anything

00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:59.287
beautiful or. Um, or anything to bear,
so.

00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:04.726
That was beautiful. That's definitely
one gorgeous. I would separate that

00:14:04.759 --> 00:14:10.515
out. That was that was an incredible
story. It was such an incredible

00:14:10.548 --> 00:14:13.816
storyteller.

00:14:13.849 --> 00:14:16.005
Thank you. I guess that's why you have
the incredible.

00:14:16.038 --> 00:14:21.246
Thank you. Thank you. You really laid
bare so many things that I think

00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:27.657
that women go through and that we
don't talk about. I mean, I was

00:14:27.690 --> 00:14:32.326
so when I told my story too, I was
saying that I felt like enslaved. I

00:14:32.359 --> 00:14:36.677
just You know, when my husband could
poop when he wears shower when he

00:14:36.710 --> 00:14:40.366
went to run out of the house and do
things, and I just felt like, why are

00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:45.486
you autonomous still? And now I'm like
a slave to this other creature and

00:14:45.519 --> 00:14:50.621
emotionally too. I would I would take
a minute to myself to go to a store.

00:14:50.654 --> 00:14:53.792
And then I would call and be like,
How's it going? I hear the baby crying

00:14:53.825 --> 00:14:57.630
in the background. I would just start
weeping and like, I can't even just

00:14:57.663 --> 00:15:01.750
enjoy this. The thing you've been
craving and been like, This is what I

00:15:01.783 --> 00:15:05.782
want to do, and then can't even just
enjoy that few minutes because you're

00:15:05.815 --> 00:15:11.576
tethered, you know. No, it's so true,
and I cannot believe your husband

00:15:11.609 --> 00:15:16.476
left. I know. Did he ever come back?
He did. He did come back. I don't

00:15:16.509 --> 00:15:22.116
remember how long he was gone. Get the
fuck out of here.

00:15:22.149 --> 00:15:26.606
I was, but I was so focused at that
point that I just sort of shut down

00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:34.639
and I shut him out and my mom was
there and I do remember um. Describing,

00:15:35.129 --> 00:15:38.846
he's like, you wouldn't listen to me
during the labor. It's like, you

00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.057
wouldn't listen to me. Exactly. Yeah.
But I remember saying, You know what

00:15:42.090 --> 00:15:46.015
? I couldn't hear you. All I could
hear was my mom's voice. It was

00:15:46.048 --> 00:15:50.917
something very primal, something so
comforting to me. I mean my God, I'm

00:15:50.950 --> 00:15:55.086
so emotional. Sorry. Um,

00:15:55.119 --> 00:16:01.145
But it was something very, very primal
and. It's what I needed to get

00:16:01.178 --> 00:16:06.775
through. And I knew she'd done it, you
know, with 3 children and uh. So

00:16:06.808 --> 00:16:13.375
yeah. So I didn't listen to him, I
couldn't, and it was, it was OK.

00:16:13.408 --> 00:16:17.375
Did you were you able to forgive him?
No, I don't think I ever did,

00:16:17.408 --> 00:16:21.586
because I don't think he ever really
got it. Um, and we eventually got

00:16:21.619 --> 00:16:29.157
divorced um for the same kind of
Reason, I mean, it's it all went to the

00:16:29.190 --> 00:16:32.226
same thing that um.

00:16:32.259 --> 00:16:39.927
He can't separate out his his own
stuff from. And and a control thing and

00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:44.726
and it's a power thing. It's just it's
whatever. We're friends now, it's

00:16:44.759 --> 00:16:52.759
fine. We were just not good spouses
and. Um It becomes clearer to me, he's

00:16:53.029 --> 00:16:56.996
even happier now that we're divorced,
and even though he didn't want to

00:16:57.029 --> 00:17:03.186
get divorced and every day since, you
know, he regrets everything, but. I

00:17:03.219 --> 00:17:06.107
know it was the right thing and and I
feel like that was a moment that I

00:17:06.140 --> 00:17:08.877
really saw.

00:17:08.910 --> 00:17:13.597
What it was about, and it's hard to
articulate even what that even means,

00:17:13.630 --> 00:17:20.377
but. Anyway, So, so my second, I was
describing, I'm sorry, I forgot your

00:17:20.410 --> 00:17:28.410
name. Ashley. OK, take a minute. OK.
OK. Yeah, we're in no hurry. OK.

00:17:28.779 --> 00:17:35.416
Oh my goodness. Yeah, I mean, you
know, in a relationship that clearly. It

00:17:35.449 --> 00:17:39.256
is a complicated thing, but you could
see how that's like a marker of

00:17:39.289 --> 00:17:44.137
someone who's not you guys aren't
communicating and he's not respecting

00:17:44.170 --> 00:17:51.456
your needs. He was not up to the task
of being the man. I mean, it's like

00:17:51.489 --> 00:17:55.976
he wanted to be in there giving birth.
Um, and you know, there's, I think

00:17:56.009 --> 00:17:59.986
there's all that could could uh.

00:18:00.019 --> 00:18:05.295
Deconstruct him or psychoanalyze him,
but um. He never could really step

00:18:05.328 --> 00:18:13.328
up to that. Place we we fought over
things that in my brain were like he

00:18:14.670 --> 00:18:17.545
was wanting to be the mother all the
time and I was like I'm the mother

00:18:17.578 --> 00:18:22.996
you go be the man. I get to do this
part you know and so he always wanted

00:18:23.029 --> 00:18:27.506
to control the stuff that I was
supposed to be doing. And that was just

00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:33.295
sort of a symptom of it. Was he
controlling the breastfeeding? Yeah. I

00:18:33.328 --> 00:18:37.416
mean, and he was trying to be
supportive and he was very sweet sometimes,

00:18:37.449 --> 00:18:41.805
but it was more like, if he could have
done it, he would have. What's the

00:18:41.838 --> 00:18:47.805
easiest way to control right? Yeah,
exactly. Just, yeah, and he absolutely

00:18:47.838 --> 00:18:52.335
would have if he could have and I
probably would have let him, but uh. You

00:18:52.368 --> 00:18:56.946
know, the poem is gorgeous. I think
that we could somehow tie the poem

00:18:56.979 --> 00:19:01.776
into a visual art piece too with your
permission. Oh yeah, whatever. Like

00:19:01.809 --> 00:19:06.176
I said, I never published it and I
don't think I'm even going to shop it

00:19:06.209 --> 00:19:11.107
around in art.

00:19:11.140 --> 00:19:14.825
I know. I know a local artist that
uses a lot of text in her painting. Do

00:19:14.858 --> 00:19:19.825
you, have you ever heard of Kay Spear?
Anyway,

00:19:19.858 --> 00:19:23.617
OK, I'm gonna make a note, pull up her
work for right about to say, yeah,

00:19:23.650 --> 00:19:27.055
that'd be great. Be like, you know,
collaborative piece on that would be

00:19:27.088 --> 00:19:31.266
wonderful, um, whatever you need.

00:19:31.299 --> 00:19:36.847
Wow, that was really intense. So how
old is your daughter now? She is 7.

00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:39.107
 Yeah.

00:19:39.140 --> 00:19:45.176
Um, do you want to hear about the
second? So, um, and you kind of start

00:19:45.209 --> 00:19:48.006
that too, you know,

00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:53.065
the new marriage. This is still the
other marriage, we were separated at

00:19:53.098 --> 00:20:00.736
this point, um, after. We went through
some periods of infidelity, both of

00:20:00.769 --> 00:20:06.835
us, and. Um, at some point separated
but we're still living in the same

00:20:06.868 --> 00:20:12.315
house just until we could figure out
how we were moving forward. I had, we

00:20:12.348 --> 00:20:16.555
had our little girl, um, can you for a
minute, can you say my husband and

00:20:16.588 --> 00:20:20.756
I, my husband and I. OK, that's the
works. I think actually can cut that

00:20:20.789 --> 00:20:26.986
and put it in the front. OK, OK. So my
husband and I were separated.

00:20:27.019 --> 00:20:31.627
Um, And

00:20:31.660 --> 00:20:38.585
So I had filed for divorce, um. We
were just waiting For that whole

00:20:38.618 --> 00:20:46.618
process and I actually had a date.
This night. And um. I had a lot of wine

00:20:48.739 --> 00:20:54.647
to drink. And um.

00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:58.236
It's just I'll try to sum it up.
Basically this guy wasn't as interested

00:20:58.269 --> 00:21:04.696
in me as I was in him and I just
remember thinking, what? I'm not sure why

00:21:04.729 --> 00:21:11.815
um why I thought I, I don't know, I
was so desirable, but um anyway. So I

00:21:11.848 --> 00:21:17.686
was sort of feeling miffed and.
Apparently I was ovulating and um I don't

00:21:17.719 --> 00:21:23.887
know if you want any of this in there,
but um. So I went home, it was a

00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:27.526
little tipsy. My husband was already
in bed, Baby was in bed, she wasn't a

00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:34.877
baby by then, she was 3. And Uh,

00:21:34.910 --> 00:21:40.776
I crawled in bed with him. And we had
a wonderful time.

00:21:40.809 --> 00:21:44.026
And um.

00:21:44.059 --> 00:21:49.176
We hadn't been together for 6 months.
Um,

00:21:49.209 --> 00:21:54.016
So then the next day it was sort of
like, oh my god, what did we do? He

00:21:54.049 --> 00:21:57.676
was all really happy, he thought it
meant we were getting back together. I

00:21:57.709 --> 00:22:02.357
was like, well, that was a mistake,
um.

00:22:02.390 --> 00:22:08.276
So that was that, and then a few weeks
went by and I just knew, I knew I

00:22:08.309 --> 00:22:15.325
was pregnant. And I took. An early
test, it was pretty early. I mean, I

00:22:15.358 --> 00:22:18.736
think it was like 4 weeks.

00:22:18.769 --> 00:22:24.256
And you know, the pink line was there
and I was just like, No, are you

00:22:24.289 --> 00:22:29.117
kidding me? So, um.

00:22:29.150 --> 00:22:32.156
I called a friend.

00:22:32.189 --> 00:22:40.189
Uh, and just said, I'm in trouble. And
um. So She invited me over for

00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:46.535
dinner. She's a single woman and um a
teacher and. She didn't have

00:22:46.568 --> 00:22:49.857
anything going on anyway, and so I
went over to her house and we had this

00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:54.335
beautiful dinner from her garden, I
remember, um, and I just felt like

00:22:54.368 --> 00:22:57.085
there was so much.

00:22:57.118 --> 00:23:01.686
Fertility, like the earth and
everything sort of came together and she's

00:23:01.719 --> 00:23:08.467
like, I think you're going to have
this this kid. And um And she said, and

00:23:08.500 --> 00:23:12.065
I knew that she had had an abortion,
which is part of the reason that I

00:23:12.098 --> 00:23:17.325
went to talk to her because I was
like, I don't think I can do this. This

00:23:17.358 --> 00:23:24.535
is this is a mess. And she said, um,
you know. Yes, I did that, um, but I

00:23:24.568 --> 00:23:29.456
don't think it was the right decision
for me. And she's like, and I know I

00:23:29.489 --> 00:23:32.516
know you.

00:23:32.549 --> 00:23:36.476
And I don't think it's the right
decision for you. But you have to, you

00:23:36.509 --> 00:23:43.347
have to decide, but just know. And um
So, and I didn't know, I knew that I

00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:47.555
couldn't, I couldn't. And the
pregnancy, no matter how inconvenient it was

00:23:47.588 --> 00:23:55.588
, um, so I finally told um. Uh, my
husband at the time. And So he begged

00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:03.897
me to keep it and I said, I think I
am. I don't know this is complicated.

00:24:03.930 --> 00:24:08.565
Um, he's like, even if we're not
together, I'll, I'll I'll take care of it.

00:24:08.598 --> 00:24:11.456
 And I was like, that's ridiculous.

00:24:11.489 --> 00:24:15.496
But he it was that same sort of
motherly role that he always wanted to

00:24:15.529 --> 00:24:23.529
take on. And So I decided to um. Go
ahead with the pregnancy and. Um, Made

00:24:28.289 --> 00:24:34.696
my my appointment. Uh, with the, the
mid same midwife that I uh had had

00:24:34.729 --> 00:24:42.729
for my first daughter who was, um.
Gonna just soon to turn 4. And Uh, so

00:24:42.959 --> 00:24:50.959
we went and since I was older, I was.
39 Um,

00:24:51.199 --> 00:24:54.617
And uh I was doing I was spotting a
little bit. They said, let's just do

00:24:54.650 --> 00:24:59.496
an ultrasound, make sure everything's
viable, and this was at like 9 weeks.

00:24:59.529 --> 00:25:05.867
And so we're in the in the ultrasound
and. I did see these two little

00:25:05.900 --> 00:25:11.085
white dots on the on the screen and I
was just thinking, oh. Maybe that's

00:25:11.118 --> 00:25:16.476
the placenta or I don't know. They're
kind of like waving around. And then

00:25:16.509 --> 00:25:24.509
she says, there are 2 babies in here.
And I remember thinking. No, no. No

00:25:24.549 --> 00:25:29.867
, that's not possible. And then she's
like, yep. There are 2 babies in

00:25:29.900 --> 00:25:35.535
here. And then my husband just started
laughing. He's like, I knew it. And

00:25:35.568 --> 00:25:40.377
I said, How did you know it? But he
just, he thinks when things are ironic

00:25:40.410 --> 00:25:43.486
that he has some foreknowledge.

00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:51.519
That's obviously not the same thing,
but um. So So twins, um.

00:25:53.098 --> 00:25:59.666
So the pregnancy was actually really
uncomplicated, um. I had about a

00:25:59.699 --> 00:26:04.467
million ultrasounds just because again
I was older and there were twins.

00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:10.486
And everything was fine, perfect. And
I made all these plans because I had

00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:14.706
a couple of other friends who had had
twins and they were on bed rest for

00:26:14.739 --> 00:26:19.127
several months or had all these issues
and ended up having a Cesarean. And

00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:24.246
so my mom came out early and I started
working from home several months

00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:27.956
before my due date even. Which was
probably a good thing because I could

00:26:27.989 --> 00:26:35.506
hardly even move, um, just between how
gigantic my belly was and just the

00:26:35.539 --> 00:26:43.539
swelling. I had carpal tunnel
syndrome, I had cankles, like crazy. Um, I

00:26:43.868 --> 00:26:48.627
remember sitting on the stairs one
day. And I guess I just sunk into my

00:26:48.660 --> 00:26:54.127
hips, but they locked and I couldn't
get up. I needed help. I felt like

00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:58.156
one of those uh morbidly obese people
that they have to move around with a

00:26:58.189 --> 00:27:03.825
crane. I could not move. It was
terrible. I hemorrhoids. I and I really

00:27:03.858 --> 00:27:07.506
started to feel for people who are
either sort of bedridden or in chronic

00:27:07.539 --> 00:27:13.637
pain because I was such a bitch and,
and I was so miserable and. I was

00:27:13.670 --> 00:27:16.996
like I'm not a good patient, I would
not be one of those people who

00:27:17.029 --> 00:27:23.045
overcame their their physical
limitations. I would just be a jerk, so. Um

00:27:23.078 --> 00:27:29.127
, but the pregnancy continued. And was
fine and I kept thinking, I kept

00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:33.367
asking, are you gonna put me on bed
rest? I just wanted an excuse to stay

00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:37.295
in bed. They're like, no, no, you need
to be moving around and you're

00:27:37.328 --> 00:27:44.006
doing great. So, um. They require you
to visit a couple of the doctors in

00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:49.887
this practice that I was seeing the
midwife again and. Um, just because

00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:53.085
there's a chance that you might have a
C-section, and so I did, and one of

00:27:53.118 --> 00:27:57.085
the doctors actually recommended that
I schedule a C-section. She said,

00:27:57.118 --> 00:28:00.956
you know, even if you're able to do
the first, a lot of times that second

00:28:00.989 --> 00:28:06.147
baby is so hard to just push out or if
they're breech or whatever, then

00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:10.785
you have to go through labor and have
a C-section. Which sounded very

00:28:10.818 --> 00:28:16.706
scary to me, but um, so then I
thought, oh gosh, maybe, of course, this is

00:28:16.739 --> 00:28:21.686
what people do, I guess. So I went
back to my midwife and she said, no.

00:28:21.719 --> 00:28:27.476
You can do this. She was um Welsh and
when I first started seeing this,

00:28:27.509 --> 00:28:29.996
this, it was actually a second midwife
in the practice. When I first

00:28:30.029 --> 00:28:34.266
started seeing her, I couldn't
understand a word, she said that her accent

00:28:34.299 --> 00:28:39.276
um was just crazy. And then all of a
sudden it was like one day I just got

00:28:39.309 --> 00:28:43.967
it and she's the kind that just says,
Oh, for fuck's sake, and all this,

00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:48.597
she swears like a sailor. She's
hilarious and she just, she's no nonsense.

00:28:48.630 --> 00:28:52.926
So she's like, No, you can do it. You
can, you can push him out. And

00:28:52.959 --> 00:28:57.726
she's sort of like, anything else? It
was just not even a discussion. So I

00:28:57.759 --> 00:29:03.877
said, OK, so, um. Got to full term and
finally it was well it was 39 weeks

00:29:03.910 --> 00:29:07.555
full time for twins I think they
consider like 36 weeks and apparently

00:29:07.588 --> 00:29:14.357
there's some magical miraculous thing
that goes on where twins' lungs

00:29:14.390 --> 00:29:19.637
mature faster than a normal or a
single single pregnancy because they're

00:29:19.670 --> 00:29:27.670
so often born early. It's this really
amazing. Wonderful thing. So. Um,

00:29:28.209 --> 00:29:31.535
anyway, so I got to 39 weeks and I
just said, I just can't, I'm done. I

00:29:31.568 --> 00:29:37.137
can't do this. I can't walk. I can't,
I can't go to the bathroom, you know.

00:29:37.170 --> 00:29:42.276
And so, so they scheduled me for an
induction. And um I was already as a

00:29:42.309 --> 00:29:47.996
couple centimeters dilated already and
so they did a um. Prostaglandin

00:29:48.029 --> 00:29:53.246
thing. And they said this is gentler
and um then we don't have to do

00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:57.805
Pitocin and it should just get you
started and then you'll be good to go.

00:29:57.838 --> 00:30:03.266
If it doesn't, we'll go a little more.
So, um.

00:30:03.299 --> 00:30:07.617
Was it inserted into your vagina
inserted, yeah, and which was very

00:30:07.650 --> 00:30:12.137
painful. I just thought it would be
like a tampon, but they're like

00:30:12.170 --> 00:30:17.055
fishing around and they're hooking
onto something. I was like, oh my God,

00:30:17.088 --> 00:30:21.436
it was the worst part of the entire
birth was that. And, um, so we went in

00:30:21.469 --> 00:30:26.156
, this was at like, um, 10 a.m. we'd
gone in at 11 and did all the stuff,

00:30:26.189 --> 00:30:32.377
and so my husband was there and my mom
was there again. And um And so then

00:30:32.410 --> 00:30:36.217
they said, OK, you know, get some
sleep while this thing works, they had

00:30:36.250 --> 00:30:38.766
done one more ultrasound to make sure
both babies were head down and they

00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:45.815
were so. There we were. So my mom and
my husband went to sleep on this,

00:30:45.848 --> 00:30:51.585
they had some couches in there, this
really large room. And um so there I

00:30:51.618 --> 00:30:57.226
was. I don't I, of course I can't go
to sleep. And the contractions

00:30:57.259 --> 00:31:02.996
started right away, but in a gentler
way, but um but uh they were there.

00:31:03.029 --> 00:31:07.486
Um, and so it's like 2 or 3 a.m. and I
just started texting people. I

00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.367
don't know what I was thinking. I turn
my phone off at night, but other

00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:17.357
people don't. So I have this guy
friend who was awake or I awakened. I'm

00:31:17.390 --> 00:31:22.506
like, Hey, I'm in labor. Everyone else
is asleep. He's like, OK, I'll keep

00:31:22.539 --> 00:31:26.956
you company. So we just texted back
and forth for a few hours and um we're

00:31:26.989 --> 00:31:30.276
still friends, never never forgot, you
know, he was the only one awake

00:31:30.309 --> 00:31:34.877
with me while I was in labor. So
eventually. I had to go to the bathroom

00:31:34.910 --> 00:31:41.075
and I was like, OK, we, this is
happening and um. So I did, and then I

00:31:41.108 --> 00:31:44.825
could hardly walk back to the bed and
I woke everybody up and said, OK,

00:31:44.858 --> 00:31:49.916
and the nurse came in and said, I
guess your water already broke and we're

00:31:49.949 --> 00:31:56.156
here we go. So. Um, at this particular
facility, they, uh, require you to

00:31:56.189 --> 00:32:00.535
give birth to twins in the operating
room. In case you need to have an

00:32:00.568 --> 00:32:06.897
emergency C-section, and I was already
planning an epidural anyway. Um,

00:32:06.930 --> 00:32:10.617
Because of my first experience, I
thought, I'm not gonna, I'm not going to

00:32:10.650 --> 00:32:13.857
mess around. Let's just do this. And
that's what they recommend anyways,

00:32:13.890 --> 00:32:18.847
so that they can just do what they
need if if uh if there's an emergency.

00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:24.726
So, um. I had to wait that the
anesthesiologist was busy with someone, and

00:32:24.759 --> 00:32:29.206
of course, it seemed like 2 hours. It
was probably 10 minutes or something.

00:32:29.239 --> 00:32:32.656
 But um, so I had to labor.

00:32:32.689 --> 00:32:37.357
You know, without drugs for a little
while again, and it was hard labor,

00:32:37.390 --> 00:32:41.976
sort of the midwife said it was
literally off the chart, so it was pretty

00:32:42.009 --> 00:32:46.535
hard contractions. I mean, here's this
giant uterus, you know, it has to

00:32:46.568 --> 00:32:52.526
shove out two babies. Of course it was
massive. But that was, I think, you

00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:54.607
know.

00:32:54.640 --> 00:33:01.565
My first time not just being
completely undone by the by the process of

00:33:01.598 --> 00:33:09.598
labor. And Um, I remembered the end of
of the. My first um delivery where

00:33:11.078 --> 00:33:17.956
I had found that place and so I went
there again. And, and it sucked, but

00:33:17.989 --> 00:33:23.026
I was there. And then finally the
anesthesiologist came in and um got my

00:33:23.059 --> 00:33:29.785
epidural and And then I felt great and
everything went very quickly and

00:33:29.818 --> 00:33:33.186
rolled me into the operating room, but
my mom couldn't come, only one

00:33:33.219 --> 00:33:40.756
person and, and my husband had to suit
up in scrubs and. Um, oh, but since

00:33:40.789 --> 00:33:44.166
they had taken a while for me to get
the epidural, the midwife said, Do

00:33:44.199 --> 00:33:47.516
you want something else? I can give
you something else to help take the

00:33:47.549 --> 00:33:52.196
edge off, and I was like, yes, this is
crazy. And so I don't even know

00:33:52.229 --> 00:33:56.835
what they gave me, gave me some
narcotic probably, but oh my gosh, between

00:33:56.868 --> 00:34:03.217
that and the epidural, I was so loopy,
um. So I just remember getting

00:34:03.250 --> 00:34:07.607
ready to be like, OK, I have to push,
and I was so sleepy that I could

00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:13.706
hardly keep my eyes open as I was
pushing. It was crazy. But um. But so

00:34:13.739 --> 00:34:20.717
first baby was outed. Like 5 minutes.
Her name's Anika. And the other baby

00:34:20.750 --> 00:34:28.566
was way up by my ribs. And on my left
side, and so they said Jamie, that's

00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:34.787
my husband's name, just push her over.
And just then pushed down on her.

00:34:34.820 --> 00:34:39.717
So I could see, so I had this half
floppy belly and then this taut portion

00:34:39.750 --> 00:34:43.787
over here. And so they pushed her over
and started pushing her down

00:34:43.820 --> 00:34:47.256
because you know she'd been up here
the whole pregnancy. Well, my other

00:34:47.289 --> 00:34:51.477
baby was down here ready to come out.
So she took an hour. So I had an

00:34:51.510 --> 00:34:56.017
hour of pushing with her. Just trying
to get her to where she was supposed

00:34:56.050 --> 00:35:00.217
to be. Everything was already
stretched out and crazy, but I do remember

00:35:00.250 --> 00:35:05.256
after the first after the first baby
came out, just got to hold her and be

00:35:05.289 --> 00:35:09.135
like, oh my gosh, she's so beautiful,
and she looks different than my

00:35:09.168 --> 00:35:14.497
first baby, whatever, and then they're
like, OK, hand her over. Got to do

00:35:14.530 --> 00:35:20.327
this again. And I just I couldn't even
believe it, just it was just too

00:35:20.360 --> 00:35:25.135
insane. And so, but again, I'm so
loopy, it's probably good because

00:35:25.168 --> 00:35:30.845
otherwise my brain would have just
exploded with. Non-comprehension.

00:35:30.878 --> 00:35:36.967
So finally got her pursed out. Um, she
was great. So they had told us they

00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.327
would be identical twins, but when
they first came out, they were

00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:45.537
completely different colors from each
other. My first baby was very red.

00:35:45.570 --> 00:35:51.896
The 2nd baby was very pale. And they
seem to have different hair colors.

00:35:51.929 --> 00:35:55.577
Now they don't, and everything's
identical. I thought, well, they were

00:35:55.610 --> 00:36:02.577
wrong. They are not identical. Um,
they were in the same um uh let's see.

00:36:02.610 --> 00:36:08.486
They had one placenta. The same corn,
which is apparently the outer. Like

00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:15.095
an outer sack, but then two different
amniotic sacs. So, um, So that's how

00:36:15.128 --> 00:36:18.195
they can kind of tell if they're going
to be fraternal identical. However

00:36:18.228 --> 00:36:22.717
, the placenta can fuse, fraternal
twins always have two placentas, but

00:36:22.750 --> 00:36:26.675
they confuse, so sometimes it's
confusing. Anyway, it had led them to

00:36:26.708 --> 00:36:32.546
believe identical. So, um, anyway, I
was confused how they could look so

00:36:32.579 --> 00:36:38.956
much different, um, Bridget, my
second, uh, twin. Uh, was a little

00:36:38.989 --> 00:36:45.135
sleepier and uh she needed a little
more um. They had to feed her some

00:36:45.168 --> 00:36:48.256
thing to kind of get her going. She
wasn't quite as, I don't even know

00:36:48.289 --> 00:36:51.756
what their Apgar scores were, and I'm
just was glad that they were there

00:36:51.789 --> 00:36:56.557
and out. Um,

00:36:56.590 --> 00:37:02.807
The placenta was gigantic. I think we
took a picture of it. I, I just,

00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:07.827
it's like the size of a whole another
baby. It's crazy. Um, but I had to

00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:15.860
feed two babies for 9 months, um. So
about that experience, the thing that.

00:37:16.978 --> 00:37:18.978
That I kept being amazed by was just what the body can do. I mean, one

00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:29.845
baby, I felt like almost broke me. And
then and then and then I had 2, and

00:37:29.878 --> 00:37:33.445
because they were not my first, it was
easier, my body knew what to do. I

00:37:33.478 --> 00:37:39.827
was a little looser everywhere. But I
also had been through so much and I

00:37:39.860 --> 00:37:45.655
knew myself better and I and I. Being
able to do that, being able to push

00:37:45.688 --> 00:37:48.195
them both out.

00:37:48.228 --> 00:37:54.126
Convinced me of. Just the sort of
power of womanhood and of the female

00:37:54.159 --> 00:38:02.159
body that is just Completely mind
blowing at what what the body can do.

00:38:02.179 --> 00:38:08.345
And what women can do and have been
doing without drugs for millennia. And

00:38:08.378 --> 00:38:12.577
um you know, I get a little help from
drugs and that makes it even better.

00:38:12.610 --> 00:38:19.655
Um. So my mom this whole time had been
waiting, uh, because she couldn't

00:38:19.688 --> 00:38:24.816
come in and she was crying and and at
this hospital they played um little

00:38:24.849 --> 00:38:28.175
chimes every time a baby was born so
she heard the first set of chimes

00:38:28.208 --> 00:38:32.767
right after I went in and then nothing
for an hour. And she thought I had

00:38:32.800 --> 00:38:37.227
been taken in for an emergency
C-section and. So then finally she hears

00:38:37.260 --> 00:38:43.445
this other set of chimes and and um.
And then they finally, I forgot to to

00:38:43.478 --> 00:38:48.195
have someone go tell her, so finally
someone remembered. Um, oh, your mom

00:38:48.228 --> 00:38:52.517
was here, she probably wants to know,
so they went out and told her and

00:38:52.550 --> 00:38:59.977
she was so relieved. Um, and then they
wheeled me out and then um.

00:39:00.010 --> 00:39:05.135
Recovery was even easier than my first
baby. Once I got through like just

00:39:05.168 --> 00:39:10.655
a couple of first days of my belly
being so gigantic, I had to kind of

00:39:10.688 --> 00:39:15.095
hold it up and I remember standing in
the bathroom in my beautiful

00:39:15.128 --> 00:39:20.486
hospital gown sneezing. And I almost
fell over cuz you know how your your

00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:26.316
muscles contract as you do that, well,
my muscles were out here. And And

00:39:26.349 --> 00:39:29.717
they contracted and I just almost fell
over and had to grab onto something

00:39:29.750 --> 00:39:34.416
when I was sneezing. And I thought,
well, There's that. So how much weight

00:39:34.449 --> 00:39:39.095
did you gain with the twins? With the
twins, I gained 60 pounds. With my

00:39:39.128 --> 00:39:43.416
first, I gained 50. So it wasn't that
much different, but the twins were

00:39:43.449 --> 00:39:51.449
over, um. 6 pounds each, so. So they
were about 6 1/2 each, so that's 13

00:39:51.699 --> 00:39:55.186
pounds of baby plus whatever the joint
placenta weighed, plus all the

00:39:55.219 --> 00:39:59.836
water weight. Um, so and it all fell
off very quickly. I think I lost 40

00:39:59.869 --> 00:40:05.046
pounds in 3 weeks, so it was just
total water

00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:08.626
um a lot of loose oh my, so much, and
my belly is destroyed to this

00:40:08.659 --> 00:40:14.017
destroyed, and I've since learned they
call it twin skin and

00:40:14.050 --> 00:40:18.615
when I showed one of my friends who
also. Know some know someone with

00:40:18.648 --> 00:40:23.405
twins and I showed her and she said,
it really is like a deflated balloon

00:40:23.438 --> 00:40:26.606
because that's what it looks like.
It's this looks like the surface of the

00:40:26.639 --> 00:40:30.856
moon or a balloon that's just had all
the air taken out of it and it's all

00:40:30.889 --> 00:40:34.727
lumpy and it's so strange.

00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:40.727
Um, so I felt really strong and
amazing after that, probably because of

00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:46.077
how hard the pregnancy had been. And I
guess I should have mentioned that

00:40:46.110 --> 00:40:50.115
at some point during the early
pregnancy, my husband and I decided to make

00:40:50.148 --> 00:40:58.017
a go of it. With the marriage, and I
actually had emailed the um. Man who

00:40:58.050 --> 00:41:05.925
was preparing her divorce papers and
said. OK, just throw them away. um,

00:41:05.958 --> 00:41:10.405
we're gonna try again. I'm pregnant
with twins and we're gonna, we're

00:41:10.438 --> 00:41:14.365
gonna see and he wrote back the
sweetest note something like, you know,

00:41:14.398 --> 00:41:19.006
well, I think he's like, I, I don't
believe in God, but someone's trying

00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:26.227
to tell you something. It was a very
sweet, very sweet thing. Um, So

00:41:26.260 --> 00:41:31.706
anyway, so we stayed married and he
was very helpful and there was no

00:41:31.739 --> 00:41:36.856
temper tantrums in the delivery room.
And I remember telling him that day

00:41:36.889 --> 00:41:43.477
just how proud I was of him and um. He
did learn a lot after after the

00:41:43.510 --> 00:41:47.717
first experience, um.

00:41:47.750 --> 00:41:51.836
And then I don't know, do you want me
to talk about the next one? Maybe

00:41:51.869 --> 00:41:58.467
even talk about how the marriage
shifted over time,

00:41:58.500 --> 00:42:06.500
take a break. I'll get OK, thank you.

00:42:07.958 --> 00:42:10.967
Yes.

00:42:11.000 --> 00:42:16.885
So, um, when the twins were about.

00:42:16.918 --> 00:42:19.486
8 months old.

00:42:19.519 --> 00:42:25.217
Um, Keep in mind we had been sleep
deprived for almost that entire time.

00:42:25.250 --> 00:42:29.956
We had a sleeper trainer come in, um.

00:42:29.989 --> 00:42:33.736
And that was helpful for about a
month. She'd just come twice a week, so

00:42:33.769 --> 00:42:38.057
we got uninterrupted sleep two nights
a week. The rest of the time was

00:42:38.090 --> 00:42:43.885
literally. Up someone every 2 hours
there were 2 babies who were not good

00:42:43.918 --> 00:42:48.876
sleepers and they both had reflux and
you know they were even though they

00:42:48.909 --> 00:42:53.267
were full term and good size for
twins, they were still very little and

00:42:53.300 --> 00:42:57.595
and the sleep trainer said they
actually kind of acted like preemies, um,

00:42:57.628 --> 00:43:02.186
they had a little harder time eating.
um, I gave up on breastfeeding after

00:43:02.219 --> 00:43:06.595
two months with them and pumping too.
I just, I couldn't even find time to

00:43:06.628 --> 00:43:11.155
pump between just trying to feed them.
And take care of my other little

00:43:11.188 --> 00:43:16.155
girl and, um, and then, and I do work
full time so I went back to work

00:43:16.188 --> 00:43:21.436
actually as soon as I could because I
felt like I was going insane. um I

00:43:21.469 --> 00:43:25.186
just needed a break, so.

00:43:25.219 --> 00:43:31.646
Um, life got back to somewhat normal,
um. So the, the twins were were 8

00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:35.885
months old or this is the new normal,
you know, they're still not sleeping

00:43:35.918 --> 00:43:43.477
through the night, but we at least
kind of have a routine. Um, And my

00:43:43.510 --> 00:43:48.635
husband tells me one day that he's
been having an affair and was gonna

00:43:48.668 --> 00:43:54.327
leave. And for the first time in the
marriage, it totally blindsided me,

00:43:54.360 --> 00:43:59.655
the other times I had seen it coming.
Or, or, you know, or I had gone

00:43:59.688 --> 00:44:04.626
outside after that had happened, and
so it was, it was my decision, but

00:44:04.659 --> 00:44:07.997
this time I thought we were good.

00:44:08.030 --> 00:44:16.030
And so. I just was really devastated
and. And really angry and um.

00:44:19.110 --> 00:44:24.736
Never recovered, even though we did
eventually decide to stay together. He

00:44:24.769 --> 00:44:32.526
wanted to um. You know, stay married.
I just wanted to stay parents in the

00:44:32.559 --> 00:44:36.526
same house. I made him sleep on the
couch for like 4 months. Um, there's

00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:39.396
some pictures from Christmas that year
where you see the little couch bed

00:44:39.429 --> 00:44:45.686
in the background. It's kind of sad,
um, but I, I was done with the

00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:50.956
marriage, but I literally could not
figure out how to. Um, live, you know

00:44:50.989 --> 00:44:55.206
, take care of two non-sleeping twins,
work full time, and then have my

00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:58.756
other daughter, my husband could
support himself. He decided to cut off

00:44:58.789 --> 00:45:03.115
ties with this other girl, but I
didn't really, you know, believe him, and

00:45:03.148 --> 00:45:07.186
I thought I just, I don't even want to
invest in trying to believe him

00:45:07.219 --> 00:45:15.219
anymore. Or trusts and Um, so, so we
stayed together, but in my mind we

00:45:15.590 --> 00:45:20.595
were done. We never went to
counseling, um. I made, I made him go. That

00:45:20.628 --> 00:45:23.956
was a condition of him, of me not
kicking him out and made him go on his

00:45:23.989 --> 00:45:30.876
own, but then he just quit eventually,
um. And uh I didn't even care at

00:45:30.909 --> 00:45:34.717
that point cause I, I knew I was done.
I was just sort of waiting for a

00:45:34.750 --> 00:45:39.445
time that. I could feel like I could
survive. Either some circumstance

00:45:39.478 --> 00:45:44.126
would change, or I would get a
different job, make a little more or

00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:47.686
something. So

00:45:47.719 --> 00:45:51.365
what was your head like? You had just
had twins eight months ago. Your

00:45:51.398 --> 00:45:57.336
body's totally transformed. You're
probably trying to just get back to

00:45:57.369 --> 00:46:00.967
feel like a woman again, and you find
out your husband's sleeping with

00:46:01.000 --> 00:46:07.026
someone. Yeah. Well, I felt completely
hollow. Um, literally, because I

00:46:07.059 --> 00:46:12.467
still have this extra skin on my
belly, there was no nothing in anymore,

00:46:12.500 --> 00:46:19.037
you know, and. Um, And of course I I
knew who this girl was who had been

00:46:19.070 --> 00:46:24.756
who he'd been sleeping with and. She's
gorgeous and skinny and. Yoga body

00:46:24.789 --> 00:46:30.506
, you know, stay at home mom. So she
works out a lot and I don't know, you

00:46:30.539 --> 00:46:35.557
know, so of course that just made me
question, but. But there was a gift

00:46:35.590 --> 00:46:38.925
in that I was really, really angry.

00:46:38.958 --> 00:46:44.925
Which took me over this hump, and it
felt like justifiable anger, you know

00:46:44.958 --> 00:46:49.276
, not that I had been perfect and not
that I haven't made mistakes since

00:46:49.309 --> 00:46:55.807
or whatever, but I just was like, you
know, this is not what I want

00:46:55.840 --> 00:47:03.840
anymore and I know this. I can't get
out now. But I'm done. And

00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:11.316
And I think I stopped caring really
about him. Um, and about the marriage

00:47:11.349 --> 00:47:17.486
, and I had stopped trusting, I think
a while ago, but I, uh. I don't know

00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:21.436
, we had decided to make a go of it,
so I kind of set that on the back

00:47:21.469 --> 00:47:25.827
burner, so. Um,

00:47:25.860 --> 00:47:31.026
So fast forward a few months, we were
still together, um, but things were

00:47:31.059 --> 00:47:36.896
bad and there was a lot of um. He was
very angry and no one on the outside

00:47:36.929 --> 00:47:44.929
saw that um he would punch walls he
would um scream at me um always wanted

00:47:45.010 --> 00:47:49.695
something from me that I couldn't give
um and and in my mind you know I'm

00:47:49.728 --> 00:47:55.537
like I'm done here. I'm just here to
survive until I can, I mean it was

00:47:55.570 --> 00:47:58.816
more of a like financial I didn't have
anywhere to go my family's

00:47:58.849 --> 00:48:03.537
somewhere else they're in Montana, um.
And then my family has been

00:48:03.570 --> 00:48:06.666
supportive of me, although they were
just like, I don't know what's going

00:48:06.699 --> 00:48:12.166
on in your drama life. So, um.

00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:19.997
Let's see, so in about um. The fall of
the next year. So this is about a

00:48:20.030 --> 00:48:23.756
year later after his affair, and I'm
still just kind of going through the

00:48:23.789 --> 00:48:27.717
motions. Um, the twins finally started
sleeping through the night about 3

00:48:27.750 --> 00:48:32.376
months before that, so they were
literally a year and a half. Um, before

00:48:32.409 --> 00:48:36.467
they slept through the night. And all
of a sudden I just had so much

00:48:36.500 --> 00:48:41.267
energy, mental energy, physical
energy, and I was like, holy crap, I am

00:48:41.300 --> 00:48:47.256
alive again. I forgot. I didn't even
notice I wasn't alive.

00:48:47.289 --> 00:48:50.977
And um there was this man at work who
had always paid a lot of attention

00:48:51.010 --> 00:48:58.365
to me and um but he was married. So he
separated from his wife and um. On

00:48:58.398 --> 00:49:02.066
one day after a particularly difficult
time with Jamie, we were still

00:49:02.099 --> 00:49:06.217
together, but I think he'd done like a
leaving in the middle of the night

00:49:06.250 --> 00:49:11.655
wall punching thing or something. I
kind of just told him my story. I had

00:49:11.688 --> 00:49:16.057
no intentions of doing anything and I
was like I'm not getting on that

00:49:16.090 --> 00:49:21.695
train wreck again, which is, you know.
Um, But we were open with each

00:49:21.728 --> 00:49:26.827
other, um. And that was that. Uh, so
he started coming around a lot. I

00:49:26.860 --> 00:49:31.227
tried to set him up with some of my
friends. I knew he was newly single

00:49:31.260 --> 00:49:37.115
and uh he actually went on a date with
my hairdresser and then, um. She

00:49:37.148 --> 00:49:42.546
just was like, I don't know more of
you. So he came back and told me that

00:49:42.579 --> 00:49:46.635
she didn't want to go to dinner with
him and. And uh he was so

00:49:46.668 --> 00:49:50.236
disappointed and I was like, oh,
trying to figure out how to get rid of

00:49:50.269 --> 00:49:54.316
him cause I just, I could tell he was
interested and I just didn't want to

00:49:54.349 --> 00:49:59.456
go there. I like, I just, I don't want
to do this. Anyway. I did go there

00:49:59.489 --> 00:50:07.489
, um. And At first I was just like.
This is just to keep me sane because

00:50:09.898 --> 00:50:17.898
this person gets me and um I'm not, we
are so different. He's a. Um, He

00:50:19.110 --> 00:50:26.077
studies film and he was always in LA
and live this kind of fast life and I

00:50:26.110 --> 00:50:32.146
don't, I don't want anything to do
with that. And I and I just was like,

00:50:32.179 --> 00:50:36.586
he's sweet, but it's just, I just, I
know who I am, I know what I want and

00:50:36.619 --> 00:50:40.827
that's not the life I want and this is
not going anywhere. This is fun. Um

00:50:40.860 --> 00:50:46.146
, but it quickly turned into more, and
I realized, oh my gosh, I really do

00:50:46.179 --> 00:50:51.287
really I I fell, fell in love with him
again, still thinking.

00:50:51.320 --> 00:50:59.320
This is not going anywhere. Um, We
slept together. Condom came off. You

00:50:59.329 --> 00:51:02.986
can guess What

00:51:03.019 --> 00:51:08.086
What transpired from that because
apparently I'm the most fertile person

00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:14.086
on the face of the planet. It was
literally the 2nd time we were together.

00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:17.037
 And

00:51:17.070 --> 00:51:21.195
And I just remember even being like,
oh shit. I knew what was gonna happen

00:51:21.228 --> 00:51:26.066
because this is what happens with me.
So, um, I took the morning after

00:51:26.099 --> 00:51:31.885
pill. And um

00:51:31.918 --> 00:51:35.385
My hair got really curly. I have
straight hair and I remember being like,

00:51:35.418 --> 00:51:39.146
that is weird. OK, but then I never
had any of the side effects. I was a

00:51:39.179 --> 00:51:45.376
little like PMS feeling. And then I
stayed PMS feeling. And my breasts

00:51:45.409 --> 00:51:49.195
were swollen and then I didn't get my
period and I was like, are you

00:51:49.228 --> 00:51:57.037
kidding me? So took a test. Positive
pregnancy.

00:51:57.070 --> 00:52:01.037
And I just literally couldn't even. So
the twins are only 1 year and a

00:52:01.070 --> 00:52:07.736
half at this point. And I felt like I
had barely physically recovered. And

00:52:07.769 --> 00:52:15.769
so I called. Him, he's now my husband.
I called him and just said uh. Hey.

00:52:16.219 --> 00:52:20.506
Pregnancy test is positive. He was
just like, What? How is that possible

00:52:20.539 --> 00:52:25.827
? You took the thing. I was like, I
don't know. But maybe maybe it's just

00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:29.787
a false positive. Maybe it's all these
hormones I took, blah, blah, blah.

00:52:29.820 --> 00:52:35.546
So we went to the doctor. I went to
the midwife, who the last one who said

00:52:35.579 --> 00:52:41.077
I could push out the twins, um, the
Welsh one. And she just was the one I

00:52:41.110 --> 00:52:47.615
got and um. Said we're in trouble. Um,
and here's what happened. The

00:52:47.648 --> 00:52:52.017
baby's probably not even viable,
right? And she's like, oh no, she's like

00:52:52.050 --> 00:52:57.445
, my morning after pill baby is 15.
So.

00:52:57.478 --> 00:53:05.086
She said the baby's just fine, and
yes, you're pregnant. And she said, you

00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:10.365
know, and I asked her about abortion.
She said, no, um, or she said,

00:53:10.398 --> 00:53:14.925
here's the information, but just think
about it. Just don't do anything

00:53:14.958 --> 00:53:21.186
too rash. How far along were you? I
was like 6 weeks.

00:53:21.219 --> 00:53:28.756
So my husband, my now husband. Um, was
separated, but not divorced yet

00:53:28.789 --> 00:53:31.845
from his wife.

00:53:31.878 --> 00:53:36.695
Who was clinically depressed, which
was. 95% of why they were getting

00:53:36.728 --> 00:53:39.945
divorced, um.

00:53:39.978 --> 00:53:44.206
And um she hadn't worked forever.

00:53:44.239 --> 00:53:48.327
Um, so basically. He'd already moved
out. He was living somewhere else,

00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:53.885
but he they were still together, um,
because of insurance. She wasn't

00:53:53.918 --> 00:53:57.686
working or working very little,
couldn't support herself. So he was paying

00:53:57.719 --> 00:54:00.776
for the house and insurance, and she
was in the house. He was just living

00:54:00.809 --> 00:54:08.706
with a friend. Um, so, He and I just,
we just talk, um, we're a mess.

00:54:08.739 --> 00:54:11.787
Everything's a mess. I'm still living
at home. No, he doesn't, my husband

00:54:11.820 --> 00:54:16.986
doesn't know anything. I think I had
told him at this point that I.

00:54:17.019 --> 00:54:21.425
Wanted a divorce that I was at least
getting out of the marriage and we

00:54:21.458 --> 00:54:23.905
were going to figure it out. That was
all I knew. I didn't tell him about

00:54:23.938 --> 00:54:30.267
the pregnancy. And um, so.

00:54:30.300 --> 00:54:36.077
We find we decide my now husband and I
decide. Let's have this baby. Let's

00:54:36.110 --> 00:54:44.057
do it. And Uh, of course, there's a
lot in between that, but um. I knew it

00:54:44.090 --> 00:54:47.456
was the right decision. We were both
ecstatically happy, and he said, you

00:54:47.489 --> 00:54:51.376
know, I need to tell um. I need to
tell my wife and we'll, we need to

00:54:51.409 --> 00:54:55.807
finish this off with the paperwork
and. And I was like, yeah, and I have a

00:54:55.840 --> 00:55:03.840
lot to do on this side, so let's go to
it. So he told his wife not that um.

00:55:04.610 --> 00:55:06.610
There was a pregnancy, but that. Divorce divorce needed to be final, and

00:55:09.378 --> 00:55:15.316
he had met someone. And she committed
suicide that night.

00:55:15.349 --> 00:55:21.557
So Um, Keep in mind she was clinically
depressed, had been in an

00:55:21.590 --> 00:55:27.675
institution. I mean, later on, he
found a bunch of, you know, notes and

00:55:27.708 --> 00:55:31.517
emails and she'd been planning, she
wrote to her friend I started planning

00:55:31.550 --> 00:55:39.550
my suicide in September. Um, And and
just, you know, so depressed and so.

00:55:40.590 --> 00:55:47.195
Not, uh, in a good place. Um, anyway,
that did not make it easier for

00:55:47.228 --> 00:55:51.517
anyone, although, um, Kevin, my
husband says he was so prepared for so

00:55:51.550 --> 00:55:57.537
long because every she was always like
threatening to kill herself. And

00:55:57.570 --> 00:56:02.135
that's, he actually had her committed
that spring before because he was

00:56:02.168 --> 00:56:07.385
afraid she was gonna do it and um.

00:56:07.418 --> 00:56:12.327
So anyway, um, so.

00:56:12.360 --> 00:56:20.267
The week, the week after she killed
herself. I I barely saw Kevin and um

00:56:20.300 --> 00:56:27.856
and I was just like. What is going on?
How, how can I have this baby? This

00:56:27.889 --> 00:56:33.497
, I have, it's like I have blood on my
hands, you know, this woman is dead

00:56:33.530 --> 00:56:38.396
because of the decision we made.
Although, you know, I know that's not

00:56:38.429 --> 00:56:46.429
true. But In my hormonal state, and it
was so fresh and so horrible, um.

00:56:47.208 --> 00:56:51.477
So, I don't know, there's so much,
there's so much else, but basically, um

00:56:51.510 --> 00:56:57.517
, they had the memorial service. Her
family came down, um, her older

00:56:57.550 --> 00:57:05.550
sister. I named Dominique, she's
French Canadian from Quebec and um.

00:57:06.378 --> 00:57:10.526
I saw pictures of her at this memorial
service and she just had this

00:57:10.559 --> 00:57:18.135
beauty about her. And no one blamed
Kevin, my husband, even her father,

00:57:18.168 --> 00:57:21.896
his ex-wife's father, was just like,
You did as much as you could for as

00:57:21.929 --> 00:57:25.256
long as you could. We know it was only
a matter of time. Everyone said

00:57:25.289 --> 00:57:30.017
this to him. No one blames him. And
they're like, we just want you to be

00:57:30.050 --> 00:57:36.566
happy. We know this has been so hard.
And so, um.

00:57:36.599 --> 00:57:40.967
That came and went, and um the day
after Christmas, it became clear I

00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:44.247
needed to get out of my house.
Eventually I did tell my husband I was

00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:52.280
pregnant and. It was pretty ugly, so I
um told Maggie. That I was gonna

00:57:52.789 --> 00:57:57.905
Live somewhere else, um. But it would,
she wouldn't really notice because

00:57:57.938 --> 00:58:05.037
I. Came home at 5 a.m. and was there
and then I left at like 10, so I

00:58:05.070 --> 00:58:10.736
would go to Kevin's. So I stayed in a
room. In the guest room, Kevin with

00:58:10.769 --> 00:58:16.287
Kevin. She had committed suicide in
their bedroom. She took pills. He

00:58:16.320 --> 00:58:23.057
owned this house. I literally had
nowhere else to go. And so, um, I never

00:58:23.090 --> 00:58:27.655
went in that room. I wouldn't even
walk over the threshold. There was just

00:58:27.688 --> 00:58:31.977
such an oppressive darkness in that
house, and I I was just like. If we're

00:58:32.010 --> 00:58:34.695
gonna do this, you have to get rid of
this house. I can't, I can't live

00:58:34.728 --> 00:58:41.336
here. I don't think you can live here.
Um, And so he did, he sold it and

00:58:41.369 --> 00:58:48.256
we rented a house and, um, eventually
I finally moved, my parents came and

00:58:48.289 --> 00:58:52.077
moved me and um.

00:58:52.110 --> 00:58:55.336
And then eventually I got, you know,
we had to start completely over. I I

00:58:55.369 --> 00:59:00.256
brought nothing with me. All my
husband has all my furniture, so I had to

00:59:00.289 --> 00:59:05.095
get, you know, two cribs for the
twins, a bed for Maggie, everything,

00:59:05.128 --> 00:59:11.376
sheets, towels, like everything, which
was so crazy. And, um, but

00:59:11.409 --> 00:59:16.405
eventually we got everything and, uh,
so they stay with me during the week

00:59:16.438 --> 00:59:21.077
and, um, with their dad on the
weekends. Um, took me forever to get

00:59:21.110 --> 00:59:29.110
paperwork done. So in July. Of 2014, I
finally. Got divorced. And, um, I

00:59:31.409 --> 00:59:36.986
was due August 5th, so it was the
middle of July. Finally, it was final,

00:59:37.019 --> 00:59:40.695
which I was sweating it. I thought, oh
my gosh, I'm gonna have this baby

00:59:40.728 --> 00:59:45.155
and be married to someone else. And my
also I should make clear, my

00:59:45.188 --> 00:59:49.477
husband had had a vasectomy and we had
not been together. So there was no

00:59:49.510 --> 00:59:53.077
chance it could have been his, you
know, of course, people asked and

00:59:53.110 --> 00:59:59.276
speculated and probably Kevin's family
was wondering, but I knew, I knew.

00:59:59.309 --> 01:00:02.945
Um, So

01:00:02.978 --> 01:00:09.186
The we decided we were gonna get
married and so we just waited a little

01:00:09.219 --> 01:00:15.606
bit to clear our heads and. Um, his
parents came to visit. My mom came and

01:00:15.639 --> 01:00:18.126
then we're like, OK, let's do this on
this Monday. And then we realized it

01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:22.405
was my old anniversary, so we couldn't
get married on the same day. So we

01:00:22.438 --> 01:00:28.006
got married the next day, which was
the due date, but you know, she stayed

01:00:28.039 --> 01:00:31.756
put and um.

01:00:31.789 --> 01:00:36.836
Uh, so we got married. I was gigantic.
Um, the pictures, we, we were at

01:00:36.869 --> 01:00:40.916
the JP, you know, the pictures of my
twins, my girls were there all three

01:00:40.949 --> 01:00:45.736
of the girls. The twins just look
shell shocked. Maggie, my oldest,

01:00:45.769 --> 01:00:50.816
they're not smiling, they're just like
what is happening? Um, it was crazy

01:00:50.849 --> 01:00:57.876
, so then we had just like a pita
jungle dinner. And um That night I went

01:00:57.909 --> 01:01:04.256
into labor, my water broke. The night
the night of the wedding. So 2 a.m.

01:01:04.289 --> 01:01:09.655
kind of like my first birth, first
delivery, um, water broke, and I was

01:01:09.688 --> 01:01:14.267
like, no, I just wanted one more night
of sleep.

01:01:14.300 --> 01:01:20.666
So, um, anyway, my husband has an
issue. Well, he did have an insomnia

01:01:20.699 --> 01:01:24.186
issue, so he used to take sleeping
pills. And so he had, of course, had

01:01:24.219 --> 01:01:28.256
taken a sleeping pill and it was hard
to wake him up. But he finally got

01:01:28.289 --> 01:01:34.276
up and, um, headed to the hospital,
um.

01:01:34.309 --> 01:01:40.066
And uh Got there and I was kind of the
annoying like, oh, well, let's make

01:01:40.099 --> 01:01:42.796
sure you're in labor.

01:01:42.829 --> 01:01:48.376
And I was like, and they're like, OK,
you are. I said, Yes, I told you I

01:01:48.409 --> 01:01:52.977
was. This is not my first time around
the block. But um, anyway, I got in

01:01:53.010 --> 01:01:59.436
there and I was like, yep, I'm on
drugs, we're just doing it and uh.

01:01:59.469 --> 01:02:03.796
Everything went really fast. As I was
getting my epidural, um, my husband

01:02:03.829 --> 01:02:09.829
fainted, so that was kind of the
dramatic thing about that birth, um.

01:02:09.829 --> 01:02:13.905
Probably because he had taken the
sleeping pill and he hates needles. So

01:02:13.938 --> 01:02:17.836
I remember sitting on the edge of the
bed. The needle is literally in my

01:02:17.869 --> 01:02:22.477
back and I see him start to just tip
over and I reached for him and they

01:02:22.510 --> 01:02:27.477
were like, no, don't move and I would
be like, all right, all right, I'm

01:02:27.510 --> 01:02:31.037
not supposed to be moving and so like
with one hand, I don't know the

01:02:31.070 --> 01:02:34.517
nurse had her hands on some kind of
something and with the other hand she

01:02:34.550 --> 01:02:38.276
caught him and was like screaming, I
need some help in here. So these

01:02:38.309 --> 01:02:42.155
people rush in smelling salts,
whatever, put him on the floor and I'm

01:02:42.188 --> 01:02:48.635
sitting there. Getting an epidural kit
watching and I was like, really.

01:02:48.668 --> 01:02:55.175
But it was sort of another one of
those moments like men are so stupid.

01:02:55.208 --> 01:03:00.316
He has one job and that is, he was
sitting in a chair. I have a needle in

01:03:00.349 --> 01:03:04.037
my back and I'm in labor, and he
passes out. I just couldn't even believe

01:03:04.070 --> 01:03:09.686
it. And so, and I don't mean men are
stupid. Men are wonderful, but it

01:03:09.719 --> 01:03:15.206
just convinced me of how strong women
are just in general. You know, I

01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:18.606
don't think they, they don't let men
in the epidural room anymore. They

01:03:18.639 --> 01:03:22.126
don't, no. I'm surprised they let him
in there and they actually made him

01:03:22.159 --> 01:03:27.727
sit down. Isn't that fascinating?
Yeah, because and now I see why they

01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:30.517
don't let anyone. So maybe it's like
it doesn't matter if it's your mother

01:03:30.550 --> 01:03:34.646
or they might think that that's
another thing they have to. Yeah, exactly.

01:03:34.679 --> 01:03:41.405
Yeah. And now that's probably a good
idea because, yeah, yeah. So, um.

01:03:41.438 --> 01:03:46.095
The rest of the labor went very
quickly, um, so I started, I was in labor

01:03:46.128 --> 01:03:50.416
at 2, while I work at 2, she was born
at 8 something. So that was very

01:03:50.449 --> 01:03:56.227
quick for me because my first was 19
hours. Of torture and this one was

01:03:56.260 --> 01:04:00.747
before I got the epidural was, I, I
totally knew how to do it. I totally

01:04:00.780 --> 01:04:06.706
knew how to ride the wave of pain. I
totally knew where to go. And it was

01:04:06.739 --> 01:04:13.155
beautiful, and it was horrible, but it
was beautiful and um. And uh I got

01:04:13.188 --> 01:04:20.445
the Welsh midwife. And um. She was
awesome and no nonsense and. We just

01:04:20.478 --> 01:04:25.836
like, ah, push this thing out, you
know, she's just so dispassionate

01:04:25.869 --> 01:04:32.836
sometimes, but um, anyway, so baby,
she's beautiful, um. So, and we

01:04:32.869 --> 01:04:37.356
decided to name her Dominique, which
is the sister of his former wife.

01:04:37.389 --> 01:04:43.885
That sounds weird, but I met, um,
Dominique and. She has the most

01:04:43.918 --> 01:04:50.396
beautiful soul, and it was sort of a
way to bring things. Full circle, um

01:04:50.429 --> 01:04:54.155
, and acknowledge that it felt like
there was sort of an energetic swap,

01:04:54.188 --> 01:05:02.188
you know. Dominique has said her
sister was um like a broken vase. Just

01:05:02.449 --> 01:05:07.247
there was always something wrong even
from when she was a little girl.

01:05:07.280 --> 01:05:10.345
And um.

01:05:10.378 --> 01:05:17.878
She always struggled and never really
wanted to be on the earth. And so.

01:05:17.878 --> 01:05:21.756
When she decided to leave the earth,
this creature, we decided to keep

01:05:21.789 --> 01:05:25.405
this other life on the earth. So that
was sort of that's kind of how we

01:05:25.438 --> 01:05:31.736
got through those first weeks for
sure. And um. I couldn't decide on names

01:05:31.769 --> 01:05:39.217
um forever and my husband is Jewish,
uh, you know, from from Detroit um

01:05:39.250 --> 01:05:43.776
was raised uh in a born again
household in rural Montana and I'm just sort

01:05:43.809 --> 01:05:48.135
of nothing now but uh we're from these
crazy different cultures, you know

01:05:48.168 --> 01:05:51.767
, and. We would come up with the name
and Kevin would tell his mom and

01:05:51.800 --> 01:05:56.126
she'd say, well, that's not Jewish
and. And and I was like, why does it

01:05:56.159 --> 01:05:59.126
have to be Jewish, and then, you know,
so then when I told my mom,

01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:06.026
Dominique, she's like. What's
Dominique, what that's not, we're not French.

01:06:06.059 --> 01:06:11.537
So, it's so bizarre. So it's just our
own thing and it was our own

01:06:11.570 --> 01:06:17.037
decision, and she just is, that is who
she is. That's who the baby is and.

01:06:17.070 --> 01:06:21.425
Um, my husband calls her Baby Doe.
Which is kind of horrible, but it's

01:06:21.458 --> 01:06:28.526
stuck and um so everyone calls her
baby down. Anyway, so that is kind of

01:06:28.559 --> 01:06:36.396
the full circle of how for girls. Um,
came to be members of this planet.

01:06:36.429 --> 01:06:39.106
Um,

01:06:39.139 --> 01:06:45.436
And uh none of them were easy and
birth is not easy. But now and I was

01:06:45.469 --> 01:06:51.186
just thinking again today. How, you
know, they start from just, I mean

01:06:51.219 --> 01:06:56.416
they start from nothing, from two
people being together and then I just

01:06:56.449 --> 01:07:04.175
they turn into people. It's just I
can't fathom it sometimes, but. That's

01:07:04.208 --> 01:07:09.945
that's my story. Wow, can I actually,
I'm gonna ask for even more

01:07:09.978 --> 01:07:14.706
information. So when you were
pregnant, can you talk about that pregnancy

01:07:14.739 --> 01:07:18.186
at all? Like, did you gain a lot of
weight? Were you sick a lot? No, well

01:07:18.219 --> 01:07:24.506
, at the beginning. I felt, um, at the
beginning of this last pregnancy, I

01:07:24.539 --> 01:07:31.615
felt very sick and very tired, um. And
I don't think I actually threw up

01:07:31.648 --> 01:07:36.566
at all. I just, it was that general
feeling, is it malaise? I don't even

01:07:36.599 --> 01:07:42.836
know how to say it. It's a French
word. But um And I, and I was going back

01:07:42.869 --> 01:07:48.106
and forth between houses, um. And I
just remember thinking, I just can't

01:07:48.139 --> 01:07:53.756
do this, this is, what am I doing, you
know, this is horrible, and I

01:07:53.789 --> 01:07:58.936
remember I would um sleep in my office
every day. At least 15 minutes. I

01:07:58.969 --> 01:08:04.175
just set my phone alarm and then there
was a couple of times when I got so

01:08:04.208 --> 01:08:07.256
sleepy on the way in, I took a nap in
the parking garage before I even, I

01:08:07.289 --> 01:08:11.695
pulled my car in and I had to sleep.
It was horrible. And I remember

01:08:11.728 --> 01:08:18.515
thinking. I'm homeless And you know,
living in a house actually not

01:08:18.548 --> 01:08:24.437
homeless, but with the soul of a dead
woman and pregnant and I'm sleeping

01:08:24.470 --> 01:08:30.226
in the parking garage. It was so
desperate and so horrible, um, and then

01:08:30.259 --> 01:08:34.756
that finally went away kind of gave
way to that the second trimester like

01:08:34.789 --> 01:08:40.196
relief, um, I wasn't sick anymore and
the pregnancy was fine. It was a it

01:08:40.229 --> 01:08:46.265
was a good um. Wasn't an easy
pregnancy like my first one. And I think

01:08:46.298 --> 01:08:51.514
after the twins too, everything was
just. Just hurt more and it was

01:08:51.547 --> 01:08:58.265
already not in great shape. So, um.
Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't do a

01:08:58.298 --> 01:09:02.425
whole lot, but I mean, I was fine and
I felt fine, didn't have any issues.

01:09:02.458 --> 01:09:07.786
Did you gain as much weight? No, I
think I only gained like 35 pounds.

01:09:07.819 --> 01:09:12.586
Probably I think my first one too, I
wasn't underweight, but I was, I was

01:09:12.619 --> 01:09:18.546
very trim and um. It didn't hurt me to
have a little more padding, but so

01:09:18.579 --> 01:09:21.987
with this last one, you know, I had
the extra that I had never lost from

01:09:22.020 --> 01:09:28.376
the twins and. Um, And yeah, I just
didn't need. I never, I never kept

01:09:28.409 --> 01:09:32.496
track of my weight other than to come,
you know, think, oh, OK, here's

01:09:32.529 --> 01:09:36.147
another however many pounds. I was
never worried about it. My doctors or

01:09:36.180 --> 01:09:39.656
midwives, no one said a thing ever
about it, which was nice because I know

01:09:39.689 --> 01:09:44.665
some women who. Either religiously
kept on top of it or their doctors, you

01:09:44.698 --> 01:09:49.545
know, would not allow them to gain. I
just think it's crazy. I know, you

01:09:49.578 --> 01:09:54.175
know, 50 years ago that was the case.
They thought that. It was really bad

01:09:54.208 --> 01:09:58.256
for both mom and baby to gain more
than 25 pounds or something and, and

01:09:58.289 --> 01:10:03.897
then moms would like not eat or I just
could not even believe the things

01:10:03.930 --> 01:10:11.930
people did to themselves. Um, so now I
just 35 pounds and. And funny, so I

01:10:11.958 --> 01:10:15.726
I I gained the least with this baby
and had the hardest time losing it

01:10:15.759 --> 01:10:23.326
afterwards, um. I mean, I'm, I'm fine.
I'm not. Like super overweight, but

01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:27.836
I could still lose about 10 pounds.
You also at this point you're older

01:10:27.869 --> 01:10:32.607
and you have 3 children, yeah, I
turned 40 and I have 3 children,

01:10:32.640 --> 01:10:38.326
including twins who were 2 at the
time. Yeah, there's no me time. Our

01:10:38.359 --> 01:10:44.046
house is crazy. It's great. My my ex
and I are good friends, which I could

01:10:44.079 --> 01:10:49.317
not see coming, you know, even a year
ago. But he actually babysits every

01:10:49.350 --> 01:10:53.796
day because he gets off an hour
earlier, so he relieves the babysitter,

01:10:53.829 --> 01:11:00.737
she leaves, and so he babysits our our
baby whose nephews and then the um

01:11:00.770 --> 01:11:05.666
the twins and then uh and then the
seven year old and uh so we get home

01:11:05.699 --> 01:11:10.555
and uh. Sometimes we all have dinner
together. We actually even all went

01:11:10.588 --> 01:11:14.717
to on vacation sort of together this
summer. I mean we all went to Montana

01:11:14.750 --> 01:11:18.217
, left the kids with my family and
with Jamie, and then we went on our

01:11:18.250 --> 01:11:26.250
honeymoon a year later. So, um, so
it's this weird reality show ish life.

01:11:27.009 --> 01:11:33.696
Um, and I'm so relieved to have a
dramaless, um, existence cause it seemed

01:11:33.729 --> 01:11:41.729
like forever there was something crazy
happening and Um, so yeah, I really

01:11:41.949 --> 01:11:46.956
need to write all this down, but only
little pieces have made it into,

01:11:46.989 --> 01:11:52.226
into words so far. No, it's incredibly
intense and it's, it is amazing

01:11:52.259 --> 01:11:56.296
that your first husband and you are
friendly now. I mean, there seemed

01:11:56.329 --> 01:11:59.437
like there were times where maybe. Was
when you told him you were pregnant

01:11:59.470 --> 01:12:03.675
, was he like violent? Were you scared
or anything or was it not like that

01:12:03.708 --> 01:12:07.317
? During our marriage, yes, there were
times he was violent and I was

01:12:07.350 --> 01:12:12.696
afraid, and a couple times I actually
left um and stayed somewhere else

01:12:12.729 --> 01:12:19.317
for a period of time because of that.
Um, when I told them I was pregnant.

01:12:19.350 --> 01:12:24.357
There was none of that, um, his
initial reaction was he actually gave me

01:12:24.390 --> 01:12:30.237
a hug. And he's like, is it mine? Even
though there's no way it could have

01:12:30.270 --> 01:12:35.036
been. I said, no, it's it's really
not. Or he said, Is there any chance it

01:12:35.069 --> 01:12:41.116
could be mine? And I said, No. You
remember you had a vasectomy. Um, and

01:12:41.149 --> 01:12:46.916
we weren't together, like, you know,
in this last little bit and um. So no

01:12:46.949 --> 01:12:52.437
, in between, um, as he got used to
the idea, there were some outbursts of

01:12:52.470 --> 01:12:55.796
anger and that was partially why I
decided, OK, just I need to move out

01:12:55.829 --> 01:12:58.515
now even though I don't have a place
to go and have to live in this crazy

01:12:58.548 --> 01:13:06.548
house and. Um, whatever, so, um.
Because there was some not good stuff,

01:13:06.859 --> 01:13:12.147
but um, how were the kids during all
of this? Did they meet? is it Kevin

01:13:12.180 --> 01:13:20.180
Kevin? Yeah, they love him. Maggie,
let's see, was 5, no, I don't know, 5

01:13:20.659 --> 01:13:28.659
at the time, 5 or 6. And um I have to
give my ex um credit he. He helped

01:13:28.759 --> 01:13:35.567
explain like mommy and daddy have
decided to not be married um mommy has a

01:13:35.600 --> 01:13:38.845
friend she's gonna live with and then
a couple of weeks later, oh mommy

01:13:38.878 --> 01:13:43.777
has new has a boyfriend and they're
gonna have a baby so it was kind of in

01:13:43.810 --> 01:13:47.326
her brain at the time.

01:13:47.359 --> 01:13:52.326
I don't think she was really conscious
of the the how condensed this time

01:13:52.359 --> 01:13:56.586
was, although I think there was a lot
of processing that she did later

01:13:56.619 --> 01:14:02.237
because she had a really hard time.
Um, mostly she missed her dad when she

01:14:02.270 --> 01:14:10.270
was at my house and. Um, but she loved
Kevin and immediately took to him

01:14:10.579 --> 01:14:16.897
and he is, I don't know why he's,
he's, well, he's 46 now. He was 45 at

01:14:16.930 --> 01:14:22.876
the time. He'd never had children, but
now, you know, he has 4 girls and

01:14:22.909 --> 01:14:28.527
he's such a natural father. Which is
amazing and just took to it really

01:14:28.560 --> 01:14:33.675
naturally, I mean, there have been
days, you know, but. Um, the girls call

01:14:33.708 --> 01:14:38.046
him Kev Kev. I don't know where that
started. So the other day, Anika, one

01:14:38.079 --> 01:14:42.196
of the twins, was saying, I love my
mommy and I love my daddy and I love

01:14:42.229 --> 01:14:47.656
my Kev Kev and I love my sisters, and
it was so great because they don't

01:14:47.689 --> 01:14:52.397
remember. The twins do not remember at
all before Kevin, they don't

01:14:52.430 --> 01:14:55.237
remember me living at the other house.
We call it Mommy's house and

01:14:55.270 --> 01:15:00.996
daddy's house. It's totally fine with
them. This is reality to them, but

01:15:01.029 --> 01:15:07.107
Maggie. Does remember she's my oldest
and she um. But she's definitely

01:15:07.140 --> 01:15:11.607
made peace with it and um.

01:15:11.640 --> 01:15:16.156
I think it helps just this crazy weird
arrangement that we have where

01:15:16.189 --> 01:15:21.277
there's no there's no tension. There
was, of course, at the beginning,

01:15:21.310 --> 01:15:26.437
which is probably why it was so
horrible, but um, yeah, it's, it's pretty

01:15:26.470 --> 01:15:32.237
ideal. So when did you guys get a new
place, a new house, or a new? Um, so

01:15:32.270 --> 01:15:38.916
we're renting and right after he sold.
Um, Kevin sold this. His other

01:15:38.949 --> 01:15:43.876
house, he, we just started looking for
a place to rent and we found this 4

01:15:43.909 --> 01:15:51.595
bedroom. Monstrosity in East Mesa and
um that's where we are, which is

01:15:51.628 --> 01:15:56.595
literally 2 miles from my old house,
which is where Jamie lives and I, I

01:15:56.628 --> 01:16:00.956
just signed the house over to him. I
mean, I just, I didn't, um. I didn't

01:16:00.989 --> 01:16:04.876
want anything, I just want to be done,
I just want to be out. And so now

01:16:04.909 --> 01:16:10.546
I'm like, oh, I probably could have
held out for something, but um. But

01:16:10.579 --> 01:16:14.876
I'm still glad the way everything
worked out so that. Uh, I know there's a

01:16:14.909 --> 01:16:19.866
saying, it's better to eat bread in
peace than cake in turmoil, and I tell

01:16:19.899 --> 01:16:23.746
myself that all the time. It's so I
forget Slovakian proverb or something

01:16:23.779 --> 01:16:30.067
, but. Um, It's not that important to
me. And I'm really glad about the

01:16:30.100 --> 01:16:36.385
way everything came. Can That's a
great ending. That's excellent. OK, I

01:16:36.418 --> 01:16:38.979
think we'll start there.