Uh, good afternoon. This is Primrose Zena and Caroline Livingstone
interviewing Doctor Karen Bruun at Barrett Honors College on 22 February
2019 for the program. Barrett at 30. Good afternoon, Doctor Bruun. Good
afternoon. Thank you for having us. My pleasure. Doctor Bruun, can you
tell us about your training and other places you taught before coming to
Barret? Well, um, I got my PhD and my MA at the University of North
Carolina at Chapel Hill, um, in religious studies with uh. Emphasis on the
history of the Christian traditions. I got my BA at Hunter College in New
York City. Um, I was a non-traditional student. I had gone to college in
the Midwest, you know, after high school as a theater major, but I dropped
out when I got a job in theater and then I would just. I was in the
Midwest in in New York acting and then I decided that was no way to grow
old, so I went back to school when I was 34.
Wow, so you're a non-traditional student. That's very interesting. And so
after that. I was wondering when and why you chose to join me. Well, um, I
was finishing up my PhD and my thesis advisor saw a job for Barrett posted.
I, um, And he said you ought to apply for this, and as it turned out, I
had a childhood friend who had. Married and settled in in Tempe and I
thought, oh, if I get an interview, I'll get a free trip to see my friend.
So I did and I did.
Well, that is very good. So, um, can you also tell us a little bit uh
about your current position? How you came to it, how long you've been in
in it, and it's place in your body experience. OK, well, I currently am
the interim faculty chair, but that's only for this year because the duly
elected chair had to step down. I've been the chair before and so that's
why I was chosen to to fill in this year. Um, I'm also, I was the original
Barrett Dean's fellow and. When I stepped down from being chair in 2013
and Peggy Nelson was still the vice dean, um. As Barrett grew, her job was
growing, and she saw an opportunity to kind of hand off some of her duties
to me so I took on some of her duties but remained teaching so I was
halftime teaching and halftime kind of administration um and they. Didn't
know what to call me and we finally uh landed on Dean's fellow. That's
very good. And if I may ask, what year was this? When did you join Barrett
? I joined Barrett in 1998. I became a Dean's fellow in 2013. 2013, um. So
, um, you published an in-depth article on the origins and development, uh
, and serving, as you called it, uh, the human events seminar to students
at Barret, um, in the anthology Pursuit of Excellence in a Networked
Society. So how does teaching the human event influence the pursuit of
excellence at Barrett? Oh. Well,
I'm gonna answer that in two parts. Let me tell you how it's influenced me
and my um pursuit of excellence. I, I feel like it's been. This incredible
gift to be able to remain a student in my professional career, you know,
to earn a living and to be able to continue to learn and grow and help
others learn and grow and so I think that. The way that the human event
contributes to excellence is that it is. An opportunity for students, it's
a space for students to just use their minds, you know, and to to just um
think and reason and discuss and be wrong and and get your mind changed
and and that's I, I, that's an incredible privilege to have and it's an, I
think an even greater privilege. To be able to oversee it, you know, to be
the facilitator. And if you don't mind, how do you believe that your
experience as a non-traditional student has, um, changed how you teach
people in the classroom? Oh well, I I think I'm probably um uh pretty
immature, so I don't know how, how, you know, when I came here, I don't
know that I was that different than, um, my colleagues, but certainly as
I've gotten older, um, and. You know, I'm older. I think there's only one
faculty member who's older than me. Um, it's just given me some
perspective on students. I have a son who just turned 17, so, so I have a
whole new, um, understanding of who the students are and, and what they're
going through. Oh, that's amazing. So you say that, uh, teaching. The
Human event has allowed you to keep on being a student. And I think the
second part of my question of pursuit of excellence was also for faculty,
so not just you, but the rest of your fellow faculty. How do you think
that the human event has influenced their pursuit?
Well, I mean, In the academy in in professional academia being a
generalist, knowing something about a lot of things is not that highly
valued um academics are encouraged to to be narrow and deep, um. So we're
a bit of an anomaly here at Barrett and it takes a certain kind of person
to want to do that but I mean I, my office is next door to an evolutionary
biologist and so I have those conversations that if I were in a religious
studies department I would not have now I think the academy is kind of
catching up to us. And more of these sort of transdisciplinary
projects are being encouraged, but we've been doing it for a long time.
Oh wow, uh, you mention in this essay that the mandate to grow enrollment
by 2013, um, to 6000 students post possible challenges to the effective
delivery of the human event. Can you expand on that? Like how, what, what
kind of challenges are you foreseeing? Well, we. We've always, we've
wanted to have unity and comparability without having uniformity because
You know, the evolutionary biologist has different strengths, and he
should draw his from his strengths when he teaches in the same way that I
have strengths and we all have strengths. So the challenge has been how
can we offer comparable experiences that are not identical.
And so increasing the students to 6000 would, how would that make it. Well
, when I first came here, I think I was the 6th or 7th faculty hired, we,
we achieved that, you know, unity without uniformity by talking in the
hallways, you know, we, I mean we didn't have policies or procedures we
just kind of figured it out but. As we grew, that, that became no longer
possible. And so we had to figure out ways to standardize it and You know
, give some institutional history, things like that. What do you, how do
you think Barrett has done in growing across all four of the campuses? Do
you think they've done a good job of maintaining that like central idea of
I hope so. I, you know, it's, it's very difficult for everyone, mostly
because of distance. I don't think, for example, I think we do a better
job of being connected to downtown here at Tempe than we do on the other
campuses, not because we think differently about them. But they're just so
far away. I mean to go to West. Is even if you are driving, it's in at
least an hour each way, you know, it's an afternoon if you wanna go. See
somebody teach a class or just have coffee with one of your colleagues and
, and, and that's hard. And so I think technology will be our friend at
Barrett. We're still figuring it out the way I think everybody else is, um.
So, um, I think we've done a good job. I think we could do a better job.
I think we're trying to do a better job. Hm, that's great. So 5 years
later, has that goal been met?
No, no, it hasn't been met. I mean, you mean on the about the 4 campuses
so the 6000
students mandate to enroll and the students to 000 that yes, that's been
met. That was easy.
That is good to know. And how is faculty adjusted in order to accommodate
the growing student body? Well, we've grown. I mean, in, I think it was
2014 or 2015, we hired 14 faculty and that I, I was on that search
committee and
I I mean that's just incredible. We had to, of course, you know, um, look
at all the applications, make those kinds of, of choices, interview them,
have them have campus visits. Then we had 14 new faculty. How do you
mentor 14 faculty? Usually when you hire you get maybe 3, mostly 1 or 2,
and that's a very different mentoring experience than 14. Um, how do we
convey that idea of comparability without uniformity, things, those, I
mean, they were, it was challenging. Hm, so you're talking about mentoring
the faculty who were hired. Can you share with us a little bit about how,
how that program goes mentoring? Well, it, it is rather what the program
looked like when there were 14 mentees looks different than when there are
3 mentees, but the principles, the underlying principles remain the same.
We. want to support these young scholars as they become generalists as
they expand. They've a lot of them are newly minted PhDs and they're used
to, you know, just writing about a very narrow topic, you know, very
deeply, so. Through workshops, through meetings with their. Mentor with
meetings with the faculty chair, we, we give them resources and are there
to answer questions about what it means to expand, you know, what does it
, for example, um. I teach in my 272. I teach Sigmund Freud, right?
Because he's a foundational thinker. Now in my PhD program I read what he
had to say about religion, but that's all I knew about Freud and so when I
first started teaching. That's what I put on my syllabus, but as I. You
know, as I expanded and grew, I realized that really there were better
things to put on my syllabus given my goals, and I got there from asking
the other faculty what they taught from Freud and why and having those
conversations so we would just want to provide a a structure for new
faculty um their mentor would may probably go over student evaluations
with them and. You know, student evaluations are usually fine, but we want
to make sure that the new faculty is contextualizing them. Appropriately
because you know you can get. 49 great evaluations and one not so great
and of course you know you have a tendency to focus on that not so great
and so you know just older more experienced voices to help this person
professionalize go from being a student to being a professional. Um, so,
uh, a few years ago you won a faculty Achievement teaching award, uh, for
teaching the human event, but can you share that experience with us? Well
, um, I have one of my colleagues, Jackie Scott Lynch, to thank. I mean,
she nominated me and did all the heavy lifting of writing a, you know,
really supportive letter, um.
But it was, uh, it was a really great experience. I mean, we got to go to
a, um, a really. A posh resort for the dinner and I wasn't the only person
honored. I do, uh, you know, there was a best teacher, best researcher,
best service, and then they give two alumni awards and one of the alums,
and of course I can't remember his name but he was a, a former NFL player
who had been successful and now he and his wife.
Run a nonprofit school for special needs kids. It was just so inspiring,
you know, I was like I am on the same stage with this guy. I mean he was
and of course I can't remember his name but but that's what I really
remember about it was, was. You know, just being surrounded by excellence.
Thank you. Congratulations on that. Um, so you worked with Doctor Nelson
and she talked about how you worked with her to develop the Hours faculty
advisor program. Uh, so what was that like? What did you have to put in
place? Well, you know, when when you have an in an institution within an
institution, you have to find ways. To situate yourself correctly and.
We couldn't do what we do if we didn't have allies in the units. You know
, I'm not a biochemist and yet many of my students are gonna wanna write
their thesis in biochemistry, so I and and all my colleagues have to have
some sort of path to that and so the faculty honors advisors are.
you know, professors within the units who value working with
undergraduates and really all we, and that's the most important thing and
they already had that, but we have um. We've provided a structure and a um.
Support, you know, not, not, we don't give them very much money at all,
but you know, just um.
I, I wrote, I'm actually very proud of this, um, last summer I put
together this, um, which is the handbook for all the faculty honors
advisors, and it has things like this is how, uh, students get their
credit and this is what happens if a student wants to do um a project not
in your unit and this is uh. This is how you contact other people, and
these are the T's that need to be crossed and I's that need to be dotted.
So, so it's, it's, it's providing support for faculty in the unit that
work with honor students. Yeah, so the book is called The Faculty owners's
Advisor's Handbook, and this is available to all faculty owners advisors
in all other departments. Yes. And when was this printed or when did you
write this? Um, I, I did it over, I mean. When I say I wrote it, I did
write a lot of the documents in here, but mostly last summer it was a
matter of pulling them together because, you know, we would email them, oh
, here's a checklist for creating a good honors contract and Here's um a
way to access the honors fund, and I wanted to get it all in one place so
I put it together last summer, the summer of 2018. So do you think that
putting together this book is in any way similar to the work that you were
doing with Doctor Nelson before you had a book and absolutely I mean
because.
Some of the documents she wrote and we, we talked, you know, we, we talked
about everything that went in here and we, we talked about everything that
went out to the faculty honors advisors. We wanted to make sure that we
were consistently on message there is such a thing as too much information
, you know, so we had to decide. What they needed to know and what they
didn't need to know because we could take care of it for them, things like
that. What do you think makes um a faculty member a good honors advisor?
Um, well, obviously they have to have some sort of enthusiasm for working
with students, not just their own research, but they also have to have a
Uh, and an in-depth understanding of their own department because as we
all know, writing a a thesis in biochemistry is not the same as writing a
thesis in art history so the art history advisor needs to understand who
her colleagues are and what they're doing so that she can match the
student up with um an appropriate thesis director or help that student
choose classes that are gonna take them. Where they wanna go in terms of
the thesis. Um, so just as a follow up, so how, um, how has the owners uh
faculty advisor program evolved? Well, I, I mean, I, when Dean Nelson
started it, I think there were maybe 20. Uh, or 30, and now there's over
100. Um, so we we try and get. Somebody from each unit and then one of the
things that these faculty honors advisors have to do is compose a document
about what. The requirements in their unit are for a thesis and then. We
post those in a central place so it's harder to get 100 plus faculty to do
that than it was to get 20 faculty to do that and and again you know um
unity without uniformity. I mean you know I mean that's that's always the
battle cry
uh and so given the current status, how do you envision it going into the
future the the program? Um.
I think that we heretofore it's uh it's been about the FHA connecting with
their students, you know, and providing support for that. I think that we
are going to have to start asking them to. Be more connected to their
fellow faculty members, like, advocate for Barrett in their faculty
meetings. Um, be a source of knowledge when one of their colleagues comes
in and says, so. What do I have to do if I'm gonna have an honors contract
or what's the bureaucracy of teaching an honors section? I think that the
honors faculty advisors are gonna have to be more involved in that end.
Because it's getting too big for one or two people to do it. In the past,
whoever it was would say, well, I don't really know um how to do an honors
contract. The FHA would say, oh well, you know, um, Email Karen Bruun.
She'll help you. Um, and that, and of course I will, but it gets to the
point where one person isn't enough and so there's there, we got to
disseminate the knowledge a little bit. Uh, so barge is the only, um,
residency honors college in the nation as well as the biggest honors
college in the country overall. How do you think it fares with, uh, Ivy
League colleges? Well, I never went to an Ivy League college, so I don't
really know. I know it's a lot cheaper, um. Uh, actually my husband went
um to. Ivy League colleges for his undergraduate and graduate degree and
he's always um. Talking about how. This experience, um, really is
comparable and in some ways even surpasses that because. He went to Yale
as an undergrad and and and Yale has a definition when you walk in the
door, you know, there are certain parameters that are there not bad ones,
but they're there and and Barrett's parameters are a lot more fluid, you
know, and um. I asked this question because President Crow said that
Barrett was modeled against the Ivy League model but supposed to deliver
more. And so my question to you is, having been here since 1998, it was a
very long time, how do you see that having
filtered into the system, When we got our own campus that was on the path
of becoming like an ivy, I think the low, um, student to Teacher ratio is
comparable to the Ivy, the um advising system, the, the, um, student
affairs programming. I mean those are all comparable to being an Ivy. The
students are comparable to Ivy League students in terms of scores and and
what they do after graduation, um, where I think. We we offer more is just
about that sort of fluidity and expansiveness I was talking about. We are
able to meet the student where they are in terms of helping them.
Be, uh, you know, I was gonna say achieve their goals and I, I mean, of
course we all want to achieve our goals, but I think there's a, uh, uh. A
spirit of Barrett that goes beyond that. It's, it's about be the best you
can be. Of course, we want you to get your dream job and you know, of
course we want that for you, but you're probably gonna get that. How can
we help you be the best person that you can be? Um, and I think, I think
that that is. plays more of a role in Barrett's vision for its students
than maybe it does in the Ivys. I haven't been to an Ivy, so I can't
really. Neither have I. I'm having a good experience here. I'm glad.
Uh, so my question, I think in a follow-up to that would be, are there
areas that you feel marriage could be, could improve and what would they
be?
I
I think that Barrett could have a stronger message.
That would Calm the students down. I've seen students in the last 20 years
get more and more anxious about the world and maybe they're right, maybe
they're right to be more anxious about the world, um.
But I think we could do a better job of saying. It's, it's gonna be OK.
It's not gonna be easy, but it's gonna be OK. Relax. Remember, I teach
mostly freshmen and they're just terrified um when they get here and
they're more terrified than they used to be. I guess the world is a
scarier place. How do you suggest that is um. Well, you know, when I came
here, there was no such thing as Facebook. There was no such thing as
social media. We barely had email, you know, I mean, um, so the world was
smaller, um.
I, I think that's a big one, social media and how social media constructs.
An ideal identity or how we try and construct our own ideal identities.
And the pressure that puts us under. Uh. So Bart could uh incorporate that
into the teaching, like how would how would Bart help students to calm
them down in the office. To help them understand that.
Their public profile is a persona, not who they are. Um, you know, let's
instead of concentrating on building that persona or Participating in that
, let's let's spend more time figuring out who you really are looking more
inwards than out inward and um. Less emphasis on how it looks. I think
students are very anxious about how they present themselves with good
reason. I think, uh, you know, I think the world puts a lot of emphasis on
that, but if we can get students to understand who they are and understand
the value of who they are, then I think they're a lot less anxious about
presenting themselves.
Um, So, um, Barrett is a leader in in delivering a multidisciplinary
curricula to thousands of students, which I think makes it an authority in
the setup and delivery of top class education at a reasonable price. How
can Barrett use this authority to become a leader in the provision of a
rounded educational experience? Well, I think we're at we're, we're
looking at a great opportunity for that as our reputation grows and um. I
think our message has to be more than simply we have you know uh great
dorms and great student programs our message has to be we have a
particular commitment to a multidisciplinary education and I, I think that
the way we approach education is, is important on two levels, um, number
one, I think it makes you a better person. And number 2, there's a
transactional sort of practical aspect to being able to look at a problem
from a multiple from multiple perspectives, um, being able to listen to
people who maybe don't come from the same place as you either culturally
or or professionally, um. Being able to engage in that conversation,
having enough confidence in yourself to know that you are not your
proposal. So you know, if people wanted. Uh, criticize your proposal,
that's OK. Let's all be here together and learn. I mean, I, I think we
have that that kind of education makes for better citizens.
And I think, you know, we're a public institution, we should be producing
good citizens. This is good. And so 30, you've been here 20 of those 30.
Where do you see in the future? That's a good question. Um, well, not with
me because.
I'm gonna retire. Um, But in 10 years, I, I think that they will have a
different relationship to technology and I hope that, you know, they're
able to, to harness technology and use it um. To provide students a better
experience, not just an easier one,
I think that they will have.
Or they should have um stronger connections to the disciplinary units than
they have now, and they're strong, but I think that that Um, connection
needs to be even stronger, um.
I think that they will have more of a national profile than they do now
even. Well, so you've mentioned technology twice, first, uh, in regards to
students' anxiety to the world and now about biology providing a better
experience for the students in regards to technology. How has technology
uh evolved, uh, at bi
Um,
Well, um.
When I, I mean, when I came here in '98, I got my first computer in like
'92, you know. Um I, when I came here, I had my own laptop. It cost $2500.
You know, nobody had a computer. You know, the students might go to the
computer lab, um. When I taught on study abroad we would say leave your
computer at home you're not gonna be able to use it and they're just gonna
steal it now I can't imagine a student going anywhere without some
electronic device to con that helps with their education. So what I'm
really thinking about is online education. I, I, I really think about that
a lot because online education, this is one thing that I hope we improve
on. Online education reaches people that otherwise would not have access
to this kind of education and I think we have a moral obligation to try
and reach those people and I think that technology will help us do that.
On the other hand, technology can be a cash cow for. Educational
institutions, just, you know, round them up, you know, get them online,
you know, get that degree. Thank you for your money and, and so we have to
negotiate that. Absolutely. Uh, so you talked about your teaching study
abroad courses, and I think that's very much in line with Barret trying to
be part of the global village. So what courses have you taught and how
have they affected your experience of being at Bar?
Well, I've taught um a few times in the London, Dublin and Edinburgh
program because my own research is on England and then I've also taught in
the um Greece and Italy program because I, I'm, you know, fairly um. Well
informed about the ancient world and that's uh you know one place you can
study the ancient world, um.
What, uh, one thing that I've noticed because lots of colleges go to
London and Rome and Florence in the summer and Athens, um, it only makes
me appreciate our students even more. I mean, not only are they Smart and
polite, but they're just um. They're just intellectually curious in a way
that I don't see other students always being. I, I can't tell you how many
times there's been some sort of class activity that, you know, there's
some sort of tour or something, and the tour guide starts out on his or
her spiel and the students will go, oh yeah, we know that this is the blah
blah blah blah blah, you know, and, and the tour guide is like, well, OK,
I guess I don't need to talk. Um, I mean they're just they're, they're, um.
Uh, a colleague of mine used to say you can only be 19 and in Paris once
, and, and it's true, you know, who are the other people that spend a lot
of time abroad, retirees. And the uh the retirees' experience is, oh this
is a lot like Pittsburgh, you know, they're, they're, they're comparing it
to their own experience, whereas the, the young person is, is experiencing
it on its own terms. That's fun to be a part of. And I noticed that you're
also very widely published uh. Well, I wouldn't say that. Well you
published quite a bit. Can, would we say that? OK.
OK. So you published quite a bit and, um, some of it, if not most of it,
uh, has been once you were already at Bared. So how has been, uh, being at
Bard and nurturing your own, um. Writing is a scholar, how is that
affected? Well, teaching students how to write has certainly made me a
better writer, um, not a faster writer though. I'm not a faster writer. um
, I've just had to carve out the time, you know, uh, it's, it's, it's
mostly that, you know, it's mostly finding the time. Uh, Dean Nelson was
very good about, um, figuring out a system of teaching load that could
support, um, faculty who wanted to publish, but the publishing always had
to have some connection to our teaching, which it did.
Well, Dr. Brun, I think those are all the questions that we had for you
today, but should you think of anything else that you would like us to
know or any questions that you have, you can contact, uh, Wesin Food or
Doctor Boyce Jossino or Mette, and we will arrange another time to sit
down again or go over those questions. Thank you so much for your time. Oh
, my pleasure. My pleasure. Good luck with this project. It's an important
one. Thank you. Please, like you, obviously, from when I'm talking to you
, I realize that you genuinely care about barrage. I mean, this could have
been in other college. Why do you care? Because I think it really offers
something very valuable. You know, Uh I'm a little smug sometimes, you
know, I look at the world today and I think, oh my God, I should be doing
more, you know, I should be out there on the front lines or I should, you
know, live in um A tiny apartment so that I can give all my money to these
really worthy causes and then I find myself not willing to do that but I
always tell myself, but you know what? you are teaching bright kids how to
be in the world that's worth something, right? You never know you never
know you know I I might be teaching the next, uh, president of the United
States or. Um, somebody who's gonna go be a diplomat or somebody who's
gonna figure out a new way to feed people who don't have enough to eat. So
,
I'm I I'm lucky that way. Wow. So you have that much confidence in your
students, most of them. Most days.
Doctor, once again, thank you so much. Thank you for sitting down.