WEBVTT 00:00:31.109 --> 00:00:33.109 Uh, good afternoon. This is Primrose Zena and Caroline Livingstone 00:00:37.789 --> 00:00:44.496 interviewing Doctor Karen Bruun at Barrett Honors College on 22 February 00:00:44.529 --> 00:00:49.445 2019 for the program. Barrett at 30. Good afternoon, Doctor Bruun. Good 00:00:49.478 --> 00:00:54.695 afternoon. Thank you for having us. My pleasure. Doctor Bruun, can you 00:00:54.728 --> 00:00:58.487 tell us about your training and other places you taught before coming to 00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:06.520 Barret? Well, um, I got my PhD and my MA at the University of North 00:01:07.558 --> 00:01:15.036 Carolina at Chapel Hill, um, in religious studies with uh. Emphasis on the 00:01:15.069 --> 00:01:21.236 history of the Christian traditions. I got my BA at Hunter College in New 00:01:21.269 --> 00:01:26.596 York City. Um, I was a non-traditional student. I had gone to college in 00:01:26.629 --> 00:01:31.555 the Midwest, you know, after high school as a theater major, but I dropped 00:01:31.588 --> 00:01:37.176 out when I got a job in theater and then I would just. I was in the 00:01:37.209 --> 00:01:42.727 Midwest in in New York acting and then I decided that was no way to grow 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:47.956 old, so I went back to school when I was 34. 00:01:47.989 --> 00:01:51.596 Wow, so you're a non-traditional student. That's very interesting. And so 00:01:51.629 --> 00:01:57.757 after that. I was wondering when and why you chose to join me. Well, um, I 00:01:57.790 --> 00:02:05.790 was finishing up my PhD and my thesis advisor saw a job for Barrett posted. 00:02:06.269 --> 00:02:11.696 I, um, And he said you ought to apply for this, and as it turned out, I 00:02:11.729 --> 00:02:18.876 had a childhood friend who had. Married and settled in in Tempe and I 00:02:18.909 --> 00:02:23.237 thought, oh, if I get an interview, I'll get a free trip to see my friend. 00:02:23.270 --> 00:02:27.525 So I did and I did. 00:02:27.558 --> 00:02:31.967 Well, that is very good. So, um, can you also tell us a little bit uh 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:37.245 about your current position? How you came to it, how long you've been in 00:02:37.278 --> 00:02:45.278 in it, and it's place in your body experience. OK, well, I currently am 00:02:45.399 --> 00:02:50.366 the interim faculty chair, but that's only for this year because the duly 00:02:50.399 --> 00:02:54.686 elected chair had to step down. I've been the chair before and so that's 00:02:54.719 --> 00:03:02.416 why I was chosen to to fill in this year. Um, I'm also, I was the original 00:03:02.449 --> 00:03:10.366 Barrett Dean's fellow and. When I stepped down from being chair in 2013 00:03:10.399 --> 00:03:16.906 and Peggy Nelson was still the vice dean, um. As Barrett grew, her job was 00:03:16.939 --> 00:03:21.467 growing, and she saw an opportunity to kind of hand off some of her duties 00:03:21.500 --> 00:03:28.427 to me so I took on some of her duties but remained teaching so I was 00:03:28.460 --> 00:03:34.596 halftime teaching and halftime kind of administration um and they. Didn't 00:03:34.629 --> 00:03:39.436 know what to call me and we finally uh landed on Dean's fellow. That's 00:03:39.469 --> 00:03:42.876 very good. And if I may ask, what year was this? When did you join Barrett 00:03:42.909 --> 00:03:50.909 ? I joined Barrett in 1998. I became a Dean's fellow in 2013. 2013, um. So 00:03:52.838 --> 00:03:58.767 , um, you published an in-depth article on the origins and development, uh 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:04.366 , and serving, as you called it, uh, the human events seminar to students 00:04:04.399 --> 00:04:09.566 at Barret, um, in the anthology Pursuit of Excellence in a Networked 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:14.805 Society. So how does teaching the human event influence the pursuit of 00:04:14.838 --> 00:04:21.464 excellence at Barrett? Oh. Well, 00:04:21.497 --> 00:04:25.774 I'm gonna answer that in two parts. Let me tell you how it's influenced me 00:04:25.807 --> 00:04:32.856 and my um pursuit of excellence. I, I feel like it's been. This incredible 00:04:32.889 --> 00:04:40.387 gift to be able to remain a student in my professional career, you know, 00:04:40.420 --> 00:04:46.947 to earn a living and to be able to continue to learn and grow and help 00:04:46.980 --> 00:04:53.786 others learn and grow and so I think that. The way that the human event 00:04:53.819 --> 00:05:00.627 contributes to excellence is that it is. An opportunity for students, it's 00:05:00.660 --> 00:05:08.305 a space for students to just use their minds, you know, and to to just um 00:05:08.338 --> 00:05:15.217 think and reason and discuss and be wrong and and get your mind changed 00:05:15.250 --> 00:05:19.866 and and that's I, I, that's an incredible privilege to have and it's an, I 00:05:19.899 --> 00:05:24.116 think an even greater privilege. To be able to oversee it, you know, to be 00:05:24.149 --> 00:05:28.046 the facilitator. And if you don't mind, how do you believe that your 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:32.137 experience as a non-traditional student has, um, changed how you teach 00:05:32.170 --> 00:05:37.745 people in the classroom? Oh well, I I think I'm probably um uh pretty 00:05:37.778 --> 00:05:42.596 immature, so I don't know how, how, you know, when I came here, I don't 00:05:42.629 --> 00:05:47.745 know that I was that different than, um, my colleagues, but certainly as 00:05:47.778 --> 00:05:53.666 I've gotten older, um, and. You know, I'm older. I think there's only one 00:05:53.699 --> 00:05:57.825 faculty member who's older than me. Um, it's just given me some 00:05:57.858 --> 00:06:03.967 perspective on students. I have a son who just turned 17, so, so I have a 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:09.305 whole new, um, understanding of who the students are and, and what they're 00:06:09.338 --> 00:06:13.197 going through. Oh, that's amazing. So you say that, uh, teaching. The 00:06:13.230 --> 00:06:18.156 Human event has allowed you to keep on being a student. And I think the 00:06:18.189 --> 00:06:22.317 second part of my question of pursuit of excellence was also for faculty, 00:06:22.350 --> 00:06:26.236 so not just you, but the rest of your fellow faculty. How do you think 00:06:26.269 --> 00:06:31.236 that the human event has influenced their pursuit? 00:06:31.269 --> 00:06:37.645 Well, I mean, In the academy in in professional academia being a 00:06:37.678 --> 00:06:43.007 generalist, knowing something about a lot of things is not that highly 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:51.040 valued um academics are encouraged to to be narrow and deep, um. So we're 00:06:52.899 --> 00:06:57.906 a bit of an anomaly here at Barrett and it takes a certain kind of person 00:06:57.939 --> 00:07:04.226 to want to do that but I mean I, my office is next door to an evolutionary 00:07:04.259 --> 00:07:09.745 biologist and so I have those conversations that if I were in a religious 00:07:09.778 --> 00:07:14.467 studies department I would not have now I think the academy is kind of 00:07:14.500 --> 00:07:20.586 catching up to us. And more of these sort of transdisciplinary 00:07:20.619 --> 00:07:26.226 projects are being encouraged, but we've been doing it for a long time. 00:07:26.259 --> 00:07:30.666 Oh wow, uh, you mention in this essay that the mandate to grow enrollment 00:07:30.699 --> 00:07:37.106 by 2013, um, to 6000 students post possible challenges to the effective 00:07:37.139 --> 00:07:41.705 delivery of the human event. Can you expand on that? Like how, what, what 00:07:41.738 --> 00:07:47.346 kind of challenges are you foreseeing? Well, we. We've always, we've 00:07:47.379 --> 00:07:55.379 wanted to have unity and comparability without having uniformity because 00:07:55.608 --> 00:07:59.486 You know, the evolutionary biologist has different strengths, and he 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:03.846 should draw his from his strengths when he teaches in the same way that I 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:07.967 have strengths and we all have strengths. So the challenge has been how 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:14.796 can we offer comparable experiences that are not identical. 00:08:14.829 --> 00:08:20.226 And so increasing the students to 6000 would, how would that make it. Well 00:08:20.259 --> 00:08:26.666 , when I first came here, I think I was the 6th or 7th faculty hired, we, 00:08:26.699 --> 00:08:30.976 we achieved that, you know, unity without uniformity by talking in the 00:08:31.009 --> 00:08:35.866 hallways, you know, we, I mean we didn't have policies or procedures we 00:08:35.899 --> 00:08:40.807 just kind of figured it out but. As we grew, that, that became no longer 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:47.875 possible. And so we had to figure out ways to standardize it and You know 00:08:47.908 --> 00:08:54.606 , give some institutional history, things like that. What do you, how do 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:59.326 you think Barrett has done in growing across all four of the campuses? Do 00:08:59.359 --> 00:09:04.366 you think they've done a good job of maintaining that like central idea of 00:09:04.399 --> 00:09:11.606 I hope so. I, you know, it's, it's very difficult for everyone, mostly 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:16.366 because of distance. I don't think, for example, I think we do a better 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:20.566 job of being connected to downtown here at Tempe than we do on the other 00:09:20.599 --> 00:09:24.515 campuses, not because we think differently about them. But they're just so 00:09:24.548 --> 00:09:31.667 far away. I mean to go to West. Is even if you are driving, it's in at 00:09:31.700 --> 00:09:36.816 least an hour each way, you know, it's an afternoon if you wanna go. See 00:09:36.849 --> 00:09:40.086 somebody teach a class or just have coffee with one of your colleagues and 00:09:40.119 --> 00:09:46.375 , and, and that's hard. And so I think technology will be our friend at 00:09:46.408 --> 00:09:52.537 Barrett. We're still figuring it out the way I think everybody else is, um. 00:09:52.570 --> 00:09:56.255 So, um, I think we've done a good job. I think we could do a better job. 00:09:56.288 --> 00:10:01.287 I think we're trying to do a better job. Hm, that's great. So 5 years 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:05.557 later, has that goal been met? 00:10:05.590 --> 00:10:09.875 No, no, it hasn't been met. I mean, you mean on the about the 4 campuses 00:10:09.908 --> 00:10:12.946 so the 6000 00:10:12.979 --> 00:10:18.125 students mandate to enroll and the students to 000 that yes, that's been 00:10:18.158 --> 00:10:22.005 met. That was easy. 00:10:22.038 --> 00:10:27.086 That is good to know. And how is faculty adjusted in order to accommodate 00:10:27.119 --> 00:10:30.686 the growing student body? Well, we've grown. I mean, in, I think it was 00:10:30.719 --> 00:10:37.765 2014 or 2015, we hired 14 faculty and that I, I was on that search 00:10:37.798 --> 00:10:40.086 committee and 00:10:40.119 --> 00:10:45.677 I I mean that's just incredible. We had to, of course, you know, um, look 00:10:45.710 --> 00:10:51.196 at all the applications, make those kinds of, of choices, interview them, 00:10:51.229 --> 00:10:55.395 have them have campus visits. Then we had 14 new faculty. How do you 00:10:55.428 --> 00:11:02.275 mentor 14 faculty? Usually when you hire you get maybe 3, mostly 1 or 2, 00:11:02.308 --> 00:11:06.986 and that's a very different mentoring experience than 14. Um, how do we 00:11:07.019 --> 00:11:12.505 convey that idea of comparability without uniformity, things, those, I 00:11:12.538 --> 00:11:16.525 mean, they were, it was challenging. Hm, so you're talking about mentoring 00:11:16.558 --> 00:11:21.076 the faculty who were hired. Can you share with us a little bit about how, 00:11:21.109 --> 00:11:26.976 how that program goes mentoring? Well, it, it is rather what the program 00:11:27.009 --> 00:11:32.375 looked like when there were 14 mentees looks different than when there are 00:11:32.408 --> 00:11:36.696 3 mentees, but the principles, the underlying principles remain the same. 00:11:36.729 --> 00:11:44.217 We. want to support these young scholars as they become generalists as 00:11:44.250 --> 00:11:49.336 they expand. They've a lot of them are newly minted PhDs and they're used 00:11:49.369 --> 00:11:54.297 to, you know, just writing about a very narrow topic, you know, very 00:11:54.330 --> 00:12:02.330 deeply, so. Through workshops, through meetings with their. Mentor with 00:12:03.019 --> 00:12:07.686 meetings with the faculty chair, we, we give them resources and are there 00:12:07.719 --> 00:12:11.927 to answer questions about what it means to expand, you know, what does it 00:12:11.960 --> 00:12:19.960 , for example, um. I teach in my 272. I teach Sigmund Freud, right? 00:12:20.668 --> 00:12:26.106 Because he's a foundational thinker. Now in my PhD program I read what he 00:12:26.139 --> 00:12:31.186 had to say about religion, but that's all I knew about Freud and so when I 00:12:31.219 --> 00:12:37.407 first started teaching. That's what I put on my syllabus, but as I. You 00:12:37.440 --> 00:12:41.047 know, as I expanded and grew, I realized that really there were better 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:46.566 things to put on my syllabus given my goals, and I got there from asking 00:12:46.599 --> 00:12:51.645 the other faculty what they taught from Freud and why and having those 00:12:51.678 --> 00:12:55.976 conversations so we would just want to provide a a structure for new 00:12:56.009 --> 00:13:00.486 faculty um their mentor would may probably go over student evaluations 00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:06.547 with them and. You know, student evaluations are usually fine, but we want 00:13:06.580 --> 00:13:11.375 to make sure that the new faculty is contextualizing them. Appropriately 00:13:11.408 --> 00:13:17.015 because you know you can get. 49 great evaluations and one not so great 00:13:17.048 --> 00:13:21.255 and of course you know you have a tendency to focus on that not so great 00:13:21.288 --> 00:13:26.385 and so you know just older more experienced voices to help this person 00:13:26.418 --> 00:13:31.807 professionalize go from being a student to being a professional. Um, so, 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:36.967 uh, a few years ago you won a faculty Achievement teaching award, uh, for 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:41.316 teaching the human event, but can you share that experience with us? Well 00:13:41.349 --> 00:13:46.967 , um, I have one of my colleagues, Jackie Scott Lynch, to thank. I mean, 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:50.807 she nominated me and did all the heavy lifting of writing a, you know, 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:55.217 really supportive letter, um. 00:13:55.250 --> 00:13:59.936 But it was, uh, it was a really great experience. I mean, we got to go to 00:13:59.969 --> 00:14:07.537 a, um, a really. A posh resort for the dinner and I wasn't the only person 00:14:07.570 --> 00:14:11.116 honored. I do, uh, you know, there was a best teacher, best researcher, 00:14:11.149 --> 00:14:16.236 best service, and then they give two alumni awards and one of the alums, 00:14:16.269 --> 00:14:21.436 and of course I can't remember his name but he was a, a former NFL player 00:14:21.469 --> 00:14:26.446 who had been successful and now he and his wife. 00:14:26.479 --> 00:14:33.057 Run a nonprofit school for special needs kids. It was just so inspiring, 00:14:33.090 --> 00:14:38.576 you know, I was like I am on the same stage with this guy. I mean he was 00:14:38.609 --> 00:14:41.746 and of course I can't remember his name but but that's what I really 00:14:41.779 --> 00:14:47.519 remember about it was, was. You know, just being surrounded by excellence. 00:14:47.719 --> 00:14:49.719 Thank you. Congratulations on that. Um, so you worked with Doctor Nelson 00:14:52.798 --> 00:14:56.366 and she talked about how you worked with her to develop the Hours faculty 00:14:56.399 --> 00:15:01.765 advisor program. Uh, so what was that like? What did you have to put in 00:15:01.798 --> 00:15:07.496 place? Well, you know, when when you have an in an institution within an 00:15:07.529 --> 00:15:15.529 institution, you have to find ways. To situate yourself correctly and. 00:15:15.779 --> 00:15:21.696 We couldn't do what we do if we didn't have allies in the units. You know 00:15:21.729 --> 00:15:26.576 , I'm not a biochemist and yet many of my students are gonna wanna write 00:15:26.609 --> 00:15:33.217 their thesis in biochemistry, so I and and all my colleagues have to have 00:15:33.250 --> 00:15:41.145 some sort of path to that and so the faculty honors advisors are. 00:15:41.178 --> 00:15:44.346 you know, professors within the units who value working with 00:15:44.379 --> 00:15:48.706 undergraduates and really all we, and that's the most important thing and 00:15:48.739 --> 00:15:56.418 they already had that, but we have um. We've provided a structure and a um. 00:15:57.788 --> 00:15:59.788 Support, you know, not, not, we don't give them very much money at all, 00:16:01.928 --> 00:16:05.515 but you know, just um. 00:16:05.548 --> 00:16:10.706 I, I wrote, I'm actually very proud of this, um, last summer I put 00:16:10.739 --> 00:16:14.746 together this, um, which is the handbook for all the faculty honors 00:16:14.779 --> 00:16:19.265 advisors, and it has things like this is how, uh, students get their 00:16:19.298 --> 00:16:26.826 credit and this is what happens if a student wants to do um a project not 00:16:26.859 --> 00:16:33.736 in your unit and this is uh. This is how you contact other people, and 00:16:33.769 --> 00:16:37.417 these are the T's that need to be crossed and I's that need to be dotted. 00:16:37.450 --> 00:16:42.297 So, so it's, it's, it's providing support for faculty in the unit that 00:16:42.330 --> 00:16:48.135 work with honor students. Yeah, so the book is called The Faculty owners's 00:16:48.168 --> 00:16:52.895 Advisor's Handbook, and this is available to all faculty owners advisors 00:16:52.928 --> 00:16:56.696 in all other departments. Yes. And when was this printed or when did you 00:16:56.729 --> 00:17:01.606 write this? Um, I, I did it over, I mean. When I say I wrote it, I did 00:17:01.639 --> 00:17:04.607 write a lot of the documents in here, but mostly last summer it was a 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:09.006 matter of pulling them together because, you know, we would email them, oh 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:14.626 , here's a checklist for creating a good honors contract and Here's um a 00:17:14.659 --> 00:17:18.716 way to access the honors fund, and I wanted to get it all in one place so 00:17:18.749 --> 00:17:23.794 I put it together last summer, the summer of 2018. So do you think that 00:17:23.827 --> 00:17:27.995 putting together this book is in any way similar to the work that you were 00:17:28.028 --> 00:17:33.345 doing with Doctor Nelson before you had a book and absolutely I mean 00:17:33.378 --> 00:17:35.967 because. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:42.206 Some of the documents she wrote and we, we talked, you know, we, we talked 00:17:42.239 --> 00:17:46.607 about everything that went in here and we, we talked about everything that 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:50.887 went out to the faculty honors advisors. We wanted to make sure that we 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:54.967 were consistently on message there is such a thing as too much information 00:17:55.000 --> 00:18:00.555 , you know, so we had to decide. What they needed to know and what they 00:18:00.588 --> 00:18:04.226 didn't need to know because we could take care of it for them, things like 00:18:04.259 --> 00:18:11.347 that. What do you think makes um a faculty member a good honors advisor? 00:18:11.380 --> 00:18:16.097 Um, well, obviously they have to have some sort of enthusiasm for working 00:18:16.130 --> 00:18:22.016 with students, not just their own research, but they also have to have a 00:18:22.049 --> 00:18:26.555 Uh, and an in-depth understanding of their own department because as we 00:18:26.588 --> 00:18:31.996 all know, writing a a thesis in biochemistry is not the same as writing a 00:18:32.029 --> 00:18:38.075 thesis in art history so the art history advisor needs to understand who 00:18:38.108 --> 00:18:43.476 her colleagues are and what they're doing so that she can match the 00:18:43.509 --> 00:18:49.117 student up with um an appropriate thesis director or help that student 00:18:49.150 --> 00:18:53.256 choose classes that are gonna take them. Where they wanna go in terms of 00:18:53.289 --> 00:18:59.726 the thesis. Um, so just as a follow up, so how, um, how has the owners uh 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:07.117 faculty advisor program evolved? Well, I, I mean, I, when Dean Nelson 00:19:07.150 --> 00:19:12.555 started it, I think there were maybe 20. Uh, or 30, and now there's over 00:19:12.588 --> 00:19:20.588 100. Um, so we we try and get. Somebody from each unit and then one of the 00:19:20.789 --> 00:19:25.996 things that these faculty honors advisors have to do is compose a document 00:19:26.029 --> 00:19:33.926 about what. The requirements in their unit are for a thesis and then. We 00:19:33.959 --> 00:19:40.555 post those in a central place so it's harder to get 100 plus faculty to do 00:19:40.588 --> 00:19:48.436 that than it was to get 20 faculty to do that and and again you know um 00:19:48.469 --> 00:19:52.406 unity without uniformity. I mean you know I mean that's that's always the 00:19:52.439 --> 00:19:54.986 battle cry 00:19:55.019 --> 00:20:00.006 uh and so given the current status, how do you envision it going into the 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:05.065 future the the program? Um. 00:20:05.098 --> 00:20:13.098 I think that we heretofore it's uh it's been about the FHA connecting with 00:20:14.618 --> 00:20:19.347 their students, you know, and providing support for that. I think that we 00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:27.006 are going to have to start asking them to. Be more connected to their 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:31.647 fellow faculty members, like, advocate for Barrett in their faculty 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:37.367 meetings. Um, be a source of knowledge when one of their colleagues comes 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:42.825 in and says, so. What do I have to do if I'm gonna have an honors contract 00:20:42.858 --> 00:20:48.746 or what's the bureaucracy of teaching an honors section? I think that the 00:20:48.779 --> 00:20:55.049 honors faculty advisors are gonna have to be more involved in that end. 00:20:55.199 --> 00:20:57.199 Because it's getting too big for one or two people to do it. In the past, 00:20:59.578 --> 00:21:04.597 whoever it was would say, well, I don't really know um how to do an honors 00:21:04.630 --> 00:21:09.285 contract. The FHA would say, oh well, you know, um, Email Karen Bruun. 00:21:09.318 --> 00:21:14.085 She'll help you. Um, and that, and of course I will, but it gets to the 00:21:14.118 --> 00:21:18.406 point where one person isn't enough and so there's there, we got to 00:21:18.439 --> 00:21:23.656 disseminate the knowledge a little bit. Uh, so barge is the only, um, 00:21:23.689 --> 00:21:28.055 residency honors college in the nation as well as the biggest honors 00:21:28.088 --> 00:21:32.377 college in the country overall. How do you think it fares with, uh, Ivy 00:21:32.410 --> 00:21:37.176 League colleges? Well, I never went to an Ivy League college, so I don't 00:21:37.209 --> 00:21:42.436 really know. I know it's a lot cheaper, um. Uh, actually my husband went 00:21:42.469 --> 00:21:48.496 um to. Ivy League colleges for his undergraduate and graduate degree and 00:21:48.529 --> 00:21:56.397 he's always um. Talking about how. This experience, um, really is 00:21:56.430 --> 00:22:03.305 comparable and in some ways even surpasses that because. He went to Yale 00:22:03.338 --> 00:22:09.656 as an undergrad and and and Yale has a definition when you walk in the 00:22:09.689 --> 00:22:14.666 door, you know, there are certain parameters that are there not bad ones, 00:22:14.699 --> 00:22:19.666 but they're there and and Barrett's parameters are a lot more fluid, you 00:22:19.699 --> 00:22:25.085 know, and um. I asked this question because President Crow said that 00:22:25.118 --> 00:22:31.887 Barrett was modeled against the Ivy League model but supposed to deliver 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:37.367 more. And so my question to you is, having been here since 1998, it was a 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:44.147 very long time, how do you see that having 00:22:44.180 --> 00:22:49.236 filtered into the system, When we got our own campus that was on the path 00:22:49.269 --> 00:22:57.269 of becoming like an ivy, I think the low, um, student to Teacher ratio is 00:22:58.259 --> 00:23:04.335 comparable to the Ivy, the um advising system, the, the, um, student 00:23:04.368 --> 00:23:08.996 affairs programming. I mean those are all comparable to being an Ivy. The 00:23:09.029 --> 00:23:13.186 students are comparable to Ivy League students in terms of scores and and 00:23:13.219 --> 00:23:21.219 what they do after graduation, um, where I think. We we offer more is just 00:23:21.828 --> 00:23:26.717 about that sort of fluidity and expansiveness I was talking about. We are 00:23:26.750 --> 00:23:34.750 able to meet the student where they are in terms of helping them. 00:23:36.578 --> 00:23:41.986 Be, uh, you know, I was gonna say achieve their goals and I, I mean, of 00:23:42.019 --> 00:23:47.196 course we all want to achieve our goals, but I think there's a, uh, uh. A 00:23:47.229 --> 00:23:50.776 spirit of Barrett that goes beyond that. It's, it's about be the best you 00:23:50.809 --> 00:23:55.696 can be. Of course, we want you to get your dream job and you know, of 00:23:55.729 --> 00:24:00.137 course we want that for you, but you're probably gonna get that. How can 00:24:00.170 --> 00:24:06.456 we help you be the best person that you can be? Um, and I think, I think 00:24:06.489 --> 00:24:14.489 that that is. plays more of a role in Barrett's vision for its students 00:24:14.670 --> 00:24:18.597 than maybe it does in the Ivys. I haven't been to an Ivy, so I can't 00:24:18.630 --> 00:24:25.627 really. Neither have I. I'm having a good experience here. I'm glad. 00:24:25.660 --> 00:24:29.706 Uh, so my question, I think in a follow-up to that would be, are there 00:24:29.739 --> 00:24:34.506 areas that you feel marriage could be, could improve and what would they 00:24:34.539 --> 00:24:38.736 be? 00:24:38.769 --> 00:24:41.156 I 00:24:41.189 --> 00:24:48.647 I think that Barrett could have a stronger message. 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:55.565 That would Calm the students down. I've seen students in the last 20 years 00:24:55.598 --> 00:25:00.486 get more and more anxious about the world and maybe they're right, maybe 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:06.426 they're right to be more anxious about the world, um. 00:25:06.459 --> 00:25:14.459 But I think we could do a better job of saying. It's, it's gonna be OK. 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:19.805 It's not gonna be easy, but it's gonna be OK. Relax. Remember, I teach 00:25:19.838 --> 00:25:24.206 mostly freshmen and they're just terrified um when they get here and 00:25:24.239 --> 00:25:27.496 they're more terrified than they used to be. I guess the world is a 00:25:27.529 --> 00:25:34.496 scarier place. How do you suggest that is um. Well, you know, when I came 00:25:34.529 --> 00:25:38.857 here, there was no such thing as Facebook. There was no such thing as 00:25:38.890 --> 00:25:45.776 social media. We barely had email, you know, I mean, um, so the world was 00:25:45.809 --> 00:25:49.877 smaller, um. 00:25:49.910 --> 00:25:56.930 I, I think that's a big one, social media and how social media constructs. 00:25:57.838 --> 00:25:59.838 An ideal identity or how we try and construct our own ideal identities. 00:26:03.848 --> 00:26:08.916 And the pressure that puts us under. Uh. So Bart could uh incorporate that 00:26:08.949 --> 00:26:13.627 into the teaching, like how would how would Bart help students to calm 00:26:13.660 --> 00:26:19.597 them down in the office. To help them understand that. 00:26:19.630 --> 00:26:27.630 Their public profile is a persona, not who they are. Um, you know, let's 00:26:27.818 --> 00:26:33.956 instead of concentrating on building that persona or Participating in that 00:26:33.989 --> 00:26:39.916 , let's let's spend more time figuring out who you really are looking more 00:26:39.949 --> 00:26:47.949 inwards than out inward and um. Less emphasis on how it looks. I think 00:26:48.068 --> 00:26:52.085 students are very anxious about how they present themselves with good 00:26:52.118 --> 00:26:55.565 reason. I think, uh, you know, I think the world puts a lot of emphasis on 00:26:55.598 --> 00:27:01.726 that, but if we can get students to understand who they are and understand 00:27:01.759 --> 00:27:06.166 the value of who they are, then I think they're a lot less anxious about 00:27:06.199 --> 00:27:09.085 presenting themselves. 00:27:09.118 --> 00:27:16.377 Um, So, um, Barrett is a leader in in delivering a multidisciplinary 00:27:16.410 --> 00:27:20.676 curricula to thousands of students, which I think makes it an authority in 00:27:20.709 --> 00:27:25.916 the setup and delivery of top class education at a reasonable price. How 00:27:25.949 --> 00:27:29.916 can Barrett use this authority to become a leader in the provision of a 00:27:29.949 --> 00:27:36.456 rounded educational experience? Well, I think we're at we're, we're 00:27:36.489 --> 00:27:43.627 looking at a great opportunity for that as our reputation grows and um. I 00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:49.785 think our message has to be more than simply we have you know uh great 00:27:49.818 --> 00:27:54.986 dorms and great student programs our message has to be we have a 00:27:55.019 --> 00:28:03.019 particular commitment to a multidisciplinary education and I, I think that 00:28:04.979 --> 00:28:10.107 the way we approach education is, is important on two levels, um, number 00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:14.656 one, I think it makes you a better person. And number 2, there's a 00:28:14.689 --> 00:28:21.496 transactional sort of practical aspect to being able to look at a problem 00:28:21.529 --> 00:28:28.016 from a multiple from multiple perspectives, um, being able to listen to 00:28:28.049 --> 00:28:32.575 people who maybe don't come from the same place as you either culturally 00:28:32.608 --> 00:28:38.467 or or professionally, um. Being able to engage in that conversation, 00:28:38.500 --> 00:28:42.706 having enough confidence in yourself to know that you are not your 00:28:42.739 --> 00:28:49.467 proposal. So you know, if people wanted. Uh, criticize your proposal, 00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:53.467 that's OK. Let's all be here together and learn. I mean, I, I think we 00:28:53.500 --> 00:28:59.607 have that that kind of education makes for better citizens. 00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:03.026 And I think, you know, we're a public institution, we should be producing 00:29:03.059 --> 00:29:11.059 good citizens. This is good. And so 30, you've been here 20 of those 30. 00:29:11.549 --> 00:29:13.549 Where do you see in the future? That's a good question. Um, well, not with 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:20.877 me because. 00:29:20.910 --> 00:29:28.910 I'm gonna retire. Um, But in 10 years, I, I think that they will have a 00:29:29.588 --> 00:29:32.916 different relationship to technology and I hope that, you know, they're 00:29:32.949 --> 00:29:40.486 able to, to harness technology and use it um. To provide students a better 00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:47.266 experience, not just an easier one, 00:29:47.299 --> 00:29:51.926 I think that they will have. 00:29:51.959 --> 00:29:58.986 Or they should have um stronger connections to the disciplinary units than 00:29:59.019 --> 00:30:04.436 they have now, and they're strong, but I think that that Um, connection 00:30:04.469 --> 00:30:09.436 needs to be even stronger, um. 00:30:09.469 --> 00:30:13.055 I think that they will have more of a national profile than they do now 00:30:13.088 --> 00:30:19.467 even. Well, so you've mentioned technology twice, first, uh, in regards to 00:30:19.500 --> 00:30:25.676 students' anxiety to the world and now about biology providing a better 00:30:25.709 --> 00:30:29.967 experience for the students in regards to technology. How has technology 00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:34.877 uh evolved, uh, at bi 00:30:34.910 --> 00:30:37.016 Um, 00:30:37.049 --> 00:30:39.897 Well, um. 00:30:39.930 --> 00:30:47.656 When I, I mean, when I came here in '98, I got my first computer in like 00:30:47.689 --> 00:30:55.689 '92, you know. Um I, when I came here, I had my own laptop. It cost $2500. 00:30:58.368 --> 00:31:00.368 You know, nobody had a computer. You know, the students might go to the 00:31:02.289 --> 00:31:08.406 computer lab, um. When I taught on study abroad we would say leave your 00:31:08.439 --> 00:31:10.926 computer at home you're not gonna be able to use it and they're just gonna 00:31:10.959 --> 00:31:15.156 steal it now I can't imagine a student going anywhere without some 00:31:15.189 --> 00:31:21.006 electronic device to con that helps with their education. So what I'm 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:24.805 really thinking about is online education. I, I, I really think about that 00:31:24.838 --> 00:31:30.166 a lot because online education, this is one thing that I hope we improve 00:31:30.199 --> 00:31:35.377 on. Online education reaches people that otherwise would not have access 00:31:35.410 --> 00:31:42.256 to this kind of education and I think we have a moral obligation to try 00:31:42.289 --> 00:31:48.575 and reach those people and I think that technology will help us do that. 00:31:48.608 --> 00:31:56.608 On the other hand, technology can be a cash cow for. Educational 00:31:57.189 --> 00:32:01.406 institutions, just, you know, round them up, you know, get them online, 00:32:01.439 --> 00:32:06.217 you know, get that degree. Thank you for your money and, and so we have to 00:32:06.250 --> 00:32:13.256 negotiate that. Absolutely. Uh, so you talked about your teaching study 00:32:13.289 --> 00:32:17.656 abroad courses, and I think that's very much in line with Barret trying to 00:32:17.689 --> 00:32:21.897 be part of the global village. So what courses have you taught and how 00:32:21.930 --> 00:32:26.467 have they affected your experience of being at Bar? 00:32:26.500 --> 00:32:33.085 Well, I've taught um a few times in the London, Dublin and Edinburgh 00:32:33.118 --> 00:32:38.535 program because my own research is on England and then I've also taught in 00:32:38.568 --> 00:32:46.568 the um Greece and Italy program because I, I'm, you know, fairly um. Well 00:32:47.459 --> 00:32:51.825 informed about the ancient world and that's uh you know one place you can 00:32:51.858 --> 00:32:58.666 study the ancient world, um. 00:32:58.699 --> 00:33:03.686 What, uh, one thing that I've noticed because lots of colleges go to 00:33:03.719 --> 00:33:08.785 London and Rome and Florence in the summer and Athens, um, it only makes 00:33:08.818 --> 00:33:14.877 me appreciate our students even more. I mean, not only are they Smart and 00:33:14.910 --> 00:33:21.266 polite, but they're just um. They're just intellectually curious in a way 00:33:21.299 --> 00:33:26.065 that I don't see other students always being. I, I can't tell you how many 00:33:26.098 --> 00:33:29.347 times there's been some sort of class activity that, you know, there's 00:33:29.380 --> 00:33:33.746 some sort of tour or something, and the tour guide starts out on his or 00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:37.585 her spiel and the students will go, oh yeah, we know that this is the blah 00:33:37.618 --> 00:33:40.825 blah blah blah blah, you know, and, and the tour guide is like, well, OK, 00:33:40.858 --> 00:33:46.075 I guess I don't need to talk. Um, I mean they're just they're, they're, um. 00:33:46.108 --> 00:33:50.397 Uh, a colleague of mine used to say you can only be 19 and in Paris once 00:33:50.430 --> 00:33:56.196 , and, and it's true, you know, who are the other people that spend a lot 00:33:56.229 --> 00:34:02.305 of time abroad, retirees. And the uh the retirees' experience is, oh this 00:34:02.338 --> 00:34:05.585 is a lot like Pittsburgh, you know, they're, they're, they're comparing it 00:34:05.618 --> 00:34:10.425 to their own experience, whereas the, the young person is, is experiencing 00:34:10.458 --> 00:34:15.695 it on its own terms. That's fun to be a part of. And I noticed that you're 00:34:15.728 --> 00:34:20.936 also very widely published uh. Well, I wouldn't say that. Well you 00:34:20.969 --> 00:34:26.345 published quite a bit. Can, would we say that? OK. 00:34:26.378 --> 00:34:31.345 OK. So you published quite a bit and, um, some of it, if not most of it, 00:34:31.378 --> 00:34:35.965 uh, has been once you were already at Bared. So how has been, uh, being at 00:34:35.998 --> 00:34:41.615 Bard and nurturing your own, um. Writing is a scholar, how is that 00:34:41.648 --> 00:34:45.414 affected? Well, teaching students how to write has certainly made me a 00:34:45.447 --> 00:34:51.055 better writer, um, not a faster writer though. I'm not a faster writer. um 00:34:51.088 --> 00:34:56.334 , I've just had to carve out the time, you know, uh, it's, it's, it's 00:34:56.367 --> 00:35:00.706 mostly that, you know, it's mostly finding the time. Uh, Dean Nelson was 00:35:00.739 --> 00:35:06.666 very good about, um, figuring out a system of teaching load that could 00:35:06.699 --> 00:35:12.186 support, um, faculty who wanted to publish, but the publishing always had 00:35:12.219 --> 00:35:16.756 to have some connection to our teaching, which it did. 00:35:16.789 --> 00:35:20.876 Well, Dr. Brun, I think those are all the questions that we had for you 00:35:20.909 --> 00:35:25.595 today, but should you think of anything else that you would like us to 00:35:25.628 --> 00:35:31.276 know or any questions that you have, you can contact, uh, Wesin Food or 00:35:31.309 --> 00:35:37.155 Doctor Boyce Jossino or Mette, and we will arrange another time to sit 00:35:37.188 --> 00:35:40.635 down again or go over those questions. Thank you so much for your time. Oh 00:35:40.668 --> 00:35:43.986 , my pleasure. My pleasure. Good luck with this project. It's an important 00:35:44.019 --> 00:35:49.756 one. Thank you. Please, like you, obviously, from when I'm talking to you 00:35:49.789 --> 00:35:53.827 , I realize that you genuinely care about barrage. I mean, this could have 00:35:53.860 --> 00:35:58.595 been in other college. Why do you care? Because I think it really offers 00:35:58.628 --> 00:36:05.695 something very valuable. You know, Uh I'm a little smug sometimes, you 00:36:05.728 --> 00:36:09.217 know, I look at the world today and I think, oh my God, I should be doing 00:36:09.250 --> 00:36:13.217 more, you know, I should be out there on the front lines or I should, you 00:36:13.250 --> 00:36:20.095 know, live in um A tiny apartment so that I can give all my money to these 00:36:20.128 --> 00:36:25.256 really worthy causes and then I find myself not willing to do that but I 00:36:25.289 --> 00:36:31.175 always tell myself, but you know what? you are teaching bright kids how to 00:36:31.208 --> 00:36:35.416 be in the world that's worth something, right? You never know you never 00:36:35.449 --> 00:36:41.497 know you know I I might be teaching the next, uh, president of the United 00:36:41.530 --> 00:36:45.836 States or. Um, somebody who's gonna go be a diplomat or somebody who's 00:36:45.869 --> 00:36:50.675 gonna figure out a new way to feed people who don't have enough to eat. So 00:36:50.708 --> 00:36:53.037 , 00:36:53.070 --> 00:36:58.526 I'm I I'm lucky that way. Wow. So you have that much confidence in your 00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:05.566 students, most of them. Most days. 00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:10.860 Doctor, once again, thank you so much. Thank you for sitting down.