WEBVTT 00:00:00.899 --> 00:00:05.247 Now that they have evidence that the thing was signed in case it's ever 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.995 lost. 00:00:09.028 --> 00:00:14.046 Mm 00:00:14.079 --> 00:00:22.079 What is today? Oh, I usually have my Fitbit on. 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:30.158 I'm gonna wait to check those until I hear if I say anything stupid. 00:00:30.739 --> 00:00:32.739 Absolutely feel free. 00:00:42.228 --> 00:00:50.228 It is, it's. OK. 00:00:59.020 --> 00:01:04.117 So I know her major. What's your major, Shall? Um, I'm majoring in supply 00:01:04.150 --> 00:01:12.150 chain management and business Spanish. Neat. 00:01:12.609 --> 00:01:19.156 So You're Shale who Brenner. 00:01:19.189 --> 00:01:26.217 Is your brother Sage? Yes, he's in my event class. Oh wow. And you are 00:01:26.250 --> 00:01:31.656 Courtney. Spell your last name? Voltring. It's V as in Victor, O L M as in 00:01:31.689 --> 00:01:35.626 Mary, E R I N G. 00:01:35.659 --> 00:01:39.176 OK. 00:01:39.209 --> 00:01:43.275 So please sit here and I'll find that other part afterwards. All right, 00:01:43.308 --> 00:01:47.717 sounds good. All right, hello, this is Courtney Walming. I am with Shay 00:01:47.750 --> 00:01:52.516 Brenner interviewing um Doctor Deluce Deluce, 00:01:52.549 --> 00:02:00.549 I'm so sorry. On March 18th at it is what time? 1:40 p.m.? In um Doctor De 00:02:00.849 --> 00:02:04.495 Luce's office on the Tempe campus. This interview is part of our Barrett 00:02:04.528 --> 00:02:08.036 Oral History project. Our goal is to preserve a record of Barrett's 00:02:08.069 --> 00:02:11.696 history in honor of the 30th anniversary. Thank you so much for taking the 00:02:11.729 --> 00:02:15.876 time to sit down with us and share your experience. Um, so what brought 00:02:15.909 --> 00:02:23.909 you to Arizona? I was born here. Oh, OK. Yeah, I think at your age and 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:28.487 older, there's a lot of people that were born here, but, but my age, there 00:02:28.520 --> 00:02:34.225 weren't so many people that were. Yeah. So what kept you here then? Well, 00:02:34.258 --> 00:02:39.886 initially family, and I am a first generation college student, so I wasn't 00:02:39.919 --> 00:02:45.835 necessarily encouraged to go to school. So I came upon going to school 00:02:45.868 --> 00:02:53.267 sort of by accident in my first job, somebody said. You're too smart and 00:02:53.300 --> 00:02:57.066 interested in the world to not go to school and so I started taking a 00:02:57.099 --> 00:03:05.099 couple classes and then wound up in this path so it just turns out that 00:03:05.538 --> 00:03:12.055 this is a good school. I was lucky that I lived nearby enough to come here 00:03:12.088 --> 00:03:19.416 and. Even when I went to graduate school, I did look at other places for 00:03:19.449 --> 00:03:23.085 the programs that I was interested in, but they weren't ranked as highly 00:03:23.118 --> 00:03:27.327 and they were gonna. Wind up costing out of state tuition and all these 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:32.446 other things, so it made more sense to stay put, so I had been exposed to 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:37.927 the campus as a child roller skating when I didn't know really what a 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:42.025 university was. It was just this nice big place that was empty on the 00:03:42.058 --> 00:03:45.846 weekends, so you could roller skate here, but it was interesting years 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:51.136 later when I wound up coming back. As a student and starting to get an 00:03:51.169 --> 00:03:56.616 appreciation of what higher education in a university was the role that it 00:03:56.649 --> 00:04:01.255 played in the community. Yeah, do you mind me asking um what made you pick 00:04:01.288 --> 00:04:05.136 Arizona State then you had other options? Yeah, I suppose I could have 00:04:05.169 --> 00:04:12.327 gone south or north and stayed in the Arizona state system. But again, 00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:18.265 it's hard to beat ASU in terms of the overall constellation of things that 00:04:18.298 --> 00:04:23.906 it offers, and while I did move out when I was 17, I've been supporting 00:04:23.939 --> 00:04:31.325 myself since then. I think that's part of why I stayed here is because. 00:04:31.358 --> 00:04:35.757 My network was here. The jobs I was cobbling together in order to put 00:04:35.790 --> 00:04:41.567 myself through school were here. The idea of um moving to another town and 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:47.776 having the novelty. Of all of that would come with that just didn't seem 00:04:47.809 --> 00:04:51.666 at least at the undergraduate level, it didn't seem appealing because why 00:04:51.699 --> 00:04:56.026 would I when this is in my backyard and I did start at the community 00:04:56.059 --> 00:05:00.106 colleges because that was what was even closer to home and what was 00:05:00.139 --> 00:05:03.825 affordable, but I didn't even never even occurred to me to come to the 00:05:03.858 --> 00:05:09.265 university until again I was getting straight A's at the community college 00:05:09.298 --> 00:05:13.555 and talking to a faculty member and and they said. Are you transferring to 00:05:13.588 --> 00:05:18.596 ASU? And I'm like, huh, there's an idea. It hadn't even, you know, like I 00:05:18.629 --> 00:05:23.075 said, it hadn't occurred to me, but I remember. There must have been some 00:05:23.108 --> 00:05:27.476 linkage between the systems that I got an email. No, it wasn't an email 00:05:27.509 --> 00:05:31.197 back then. Email didn't exist. It was a it was a printed letter and it's 00:05:31.230 --> 00:05:35.895 probably still in my baby book at home somewhere, but it, it was at the 00:05:35.928 --> 00:05:40.236 very beginning of the university Honors College at ASU. I graduated from 00:05:40.269 --> 00:05:45.596 Mesa Community College, as the valedictorian in 1988, and that's when ASU 00:05:45.629 --> 00:05:49.916 was starting. Their university honors college before it was called Barrett 00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:55.796 , and they invited me to be in that first class of what we are in right 00:05:55.829 --> 00:06:01.075 now but I was again working my way through school didn't have any role 00:06:01.108 --> 00:06:06.286 models about going to school it didn't even make sense to me why I would. 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:11.447 Take on extra work or additional fees to be in an honors college. I, I 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:15.606 knew it appealed to me. I did take honors classes, AP kinds of things in 00:06:15.639 --> 00:06:22.507 high school and at the community college, but. The The idea of trying to 00:06:22.540 --> 00:06:25.627 adjust to a university with all that extra. I didn't realize what I would 00:06:25.660 --> 00:06:29.586 get from it for what it would cost me in terms of time and money and 00:06:29.619 --> 00:06:36.387 inconvenience. But now with the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had. Found 00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:41.627 a way to work it out because I do believe that there is value in the 00:06:41.660 --> 00:06:45.786 experience that the students get here and I would have been interested in 00:06:45.819 --> 00:06:51.067 getting that value myself earlier in my life. Well, thank you for sharing. 00:06:51.100 --> 00:06:54.786 Um, so what led you to, uh, well, I guess we've already discussed that a 00:06:54.819 --> 00:06:59.486 little bit, but what led you to desire to study at Arizona State? Well, 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:03.166 yeah, in addition to the things we've talked about, I think, uh, having 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:06.687 the world opened up to me in terms of all the different things that you 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:13.776 could study and The value of pursuing additional education, not just for 00:07:13.809 --> 00:07:17.666 the job skills, but for the personal growth kinds of benefits that one 00:07:17.699 --> 00:07:22.637 could experience. So these days, like we were just talking about online 00:07:22.670 --> 00:07:28.817 stuff. There's a kind of, do you know what I mean when I say the word 00:07:28.850 --> 00:07:33.776 catalog? Is that in your vocabulary? You know, you might think of a mail 00:07:33.809 --> 00:07:37.575 order catalog it comes how you choose shoes or clothes from or gifts not 00:07:37.608 --> 00:07:41.437 quite what you mean though, but back then we had a course catalog. It's 00:07:41.470 --> 00:07:45.676 only available in paper and you could just sit there and sort of thumb 00:07:45.709 --> 00:07:49.075 through it or you could fall down on the floor and open up to a page and 00:07:49.108 --> 00:07:52.515 you'd go, I didn't even know there were classes on that. That sounds 00:07:52.548 --> 00:07:57.145 interesting. you would at least I accidentally discovered. Just a whole 00:07:57.178 --> 00:08:00.586 world of knowledge that I didn't even really think about before, and I 00:08:00.619 --> 00:08:04.586 think it's harder for kids today to do that because unless you have the 00:08:04.619 --> 00:08:09.226 right keyword or the right prefix, you're not going to run across it as 00:08:09.259 --> 00:08:13.305 easily when you're scheduling classes. When we used to schedule classes, 00:08:13.338 --> 00:08:16.786 you had the catalog and a paper schedule, and you had to do so much 00:08:16.819 --> 00:08:20.786 tracking with your eyes that you you actually found unique things that you 00:08:20.819 --> 00:08:25.836 might want to take as electives or. Uh, consider as a second major or 00:08:25.869 --> 00:08:31.036 minor or something. So I was genuinely interested in learning for 00:08:31.069 --> 00:08:35.986 learning's sake, and it did occur to me as I saw the world changing around 00:08:36.019 --> 00:08:41.836 me that it, it couldn't hurt to. To be educated and to pursue these kind 00:08:41.869 --> 00:08:48.476 of things again my dad wasn't in favor he he did show up at my graduation 00:08:48.509 --> 00:08:53.076 from MCC because I was the commencement speaker and the deeper I got into 00:08:53.109 --> 00:08:58.586 school and the more accolades I got for being a a star student, he started 00:08:58.619 --> 00:09:03.395 to pay attention and think, well, I think she's really stuck on this path 00:09:03.428 --> 00:09:06.515 maybe maybe there's something to it. I think he started to think about it 00:09:06.548 --> 00:09:12.025 in a different way, um. And he's, he's, he turned from disinterest or 00:09:12.058 --> 00:09:17.375 discouragement into neutral to at least, you know, proud by the time I got 00:09:17.408 --> 00:09:20.826 my PhD, but 00:09:20.859 --> 00:09:24.167 It's not that he wasn't educated. I mean, you see those books on the top 00:09:24.200 --> 00:09:28.686 two shelves over there that looks like a nice set. Those are the great 00:09:28.719 --> 00:09:34.866 books of the Western world. And he bought those, he saved his pennies and 00:09:34.899 --> 00:09:38.866 bought those and read them himself. He educated himself, reading his way 00:09:38.899 --> 00:09:42.826 through. The great books of the Western world, which a lot of people use 00:09:42.859 --> 00:09:46.625 several of those in their human event classes, and it's formed the 00:09:46.658 --> 00:09:51.866 foundation of a lot of uh educational systems. So I certainly don't think 00:09:51.899 --> 00:09:56.625 one has to go to the university to become an educated person because I 00:09:56.658 --> 00:09:59.826 know my dad was smart, but he thought I did it on my own, so why do you 00:09:59.859 --> 00:10:06.025 need to go and do it. But later he he could see the value in it and I 00:10:06.058 --> 00:10:08.826 certainly know that there are people that do spend their time and money 00:10:08.859 --> 00:10:14.907 here and don't leave with as much education and wisdom as some people have 00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:20.917 without pursuing an education, but I still wish everybody could and would. 00:10:20.950 --> 00:10:24.446 Um, how has your major in communication prepared you for your career and 00:10:24.479 --> 00:10:32.479 bear it? So yes, when I was an undergrad I majored in communication and we 00:10:32.629 --> 00:10:35.677 had, I don't know if you still have to, but back then we had to pick a 00:10:35.710 --> 00:10:40.677 track and I picked 3 tracks because I was an overachiever, so I did the 00:10:40.710 --> 00:10:46.427 extra classes to do 3 tracks so I did interpersonal communication track, 00:10:46.460 --> 00:10:50.037 intercultural communication track as well as the organizational 00:10:50.070 --> 00:10:56.856 communication track so I. Think it prepared me on all those three fronts 00:10:56.889 --> 00:11:01.726 on the interpersonal level when you're facilitating discussion slash 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:06.885 seminar based classes rather than giving lectures, you do need to use some 00:11:06.918 --> 00:11:12.297 interpersonal communication skills in order to. Encourage people to 00:11:12.330 --> 00:11:16.057 discuss, read body language. There's a number of students that raise their 00:11:16.090 --> 00:11:19.976 hand with their face. What I mean is they, they don't like go like this. 00:11:20.009 --> 00:11:23.537 They just kind of crook their head or raise their eyebrow a little bit or 00:11:23.570 --> 00:11:26.395 there's something that tells you that that student wants to jump in right 00:11:26.428 --> 00:11:31.037 then. So I, I definitely pay attention to nonverbals. I use a number of 00:11:31.070 --> 00:11:36.326 the skills in terms of of. Using them myself, modeling them for my 00:11:36.359 --> 00:11:40.366 students, as well as telling my students to paraphrase, to perception 00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:44.807 check, to not assume, but to ask questions. I'm very big on pursuing a 00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:48.967 spirit of inquiry as opposed to a spirit of judgment and how we approach 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:53.486 things. And of course that blends over in with the inner cultural. It's 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:58.635 easy to stereotype or come to assumptions based on. Quick cues about 00:11:58.668 --> 00:12:03.596 people, but asking good questions and challenging your own assumptions is 00:12:03.629 --> 00:12:09.956 useful, as is being open to incorporating multicultural texts in the class 00:12:09.989 --> 00:12:14.157 and there was a long time in the history of the human event where it was 00:12:14.190 --> 00:12:17.875 more like a Western intellectual tradition class, even though it was never 00:12:17.908 --> 00:12:22.476 intended to be for some people it's still tilted that way a little bit 00:12:22.509 --> 00:12:28.015 more because it was their comfort zone, but in the past. 10 years or more 00:12:28.048 --> 00:12:32.895 we've we've made a more explicit effort at making sure that we bring in 00:12:32.928 --> 00:12:39.217 non-western kinds of authors and underrepresented voices in different ways 00:12:39.250 --> 00:12:43.255 so that people have that opportunity to experience a little bit, have 00:12:43.288 --> 00:12:47.057 their awareness raised a little bit around different cultural backgrounds 00:12:47.090 --> 00:12:52.417 without it necessarily um being an intercultural communication kind of 00:12:52.450 --> 00:12:57.515 class and organizational studies wise also it connects because. A lot of 00:12:57.548 --> 00:13:02.635 what we're looking at in the human event has to do with how institutions 00:13:02.668 --> 00:13:07.515 have changed over time. If you're looking at that. That flow of important 00:13:07.548 --> 00:13:11.677 ideas and how we've we've we've shifted to different kinds of justice 00:13:11.710 --> 00:13:15.356 systems or or different attitudes towards gender or slavery or all of 00:13:15.389 --> 00:13:21.436 these different things they they echo or are founded in major institutions 00:13:21.469 --> 00:13:26.366 like religious institutions or political institutions and thinking how 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:30.917 organizations are structured. Just kind of folds into how I think about 00:13:30.950 --> 00:13:33.076 things. 00:13:33.109 --> 00:13:37.316 Of course I also minored in in psychology and business or the equivalent 00:13:37.349 --> 00:13:43.236 thereof and so I, I have a constellation of things that kind of wrap up 00:13:43.269 --> 00:13:46.917 into how I think about being prepared for Barrett as a teacher and as a 00:13:46.950 --> 00:13:49.667 colleague. 00:13:49.700 --> 00:13:56.057 How, oh Yeah. Um, why did you choose to teach at the same school that you 00:13:56.090 --> 00:14:01.936 studied at? Well, it is sort of rare. I mean, there are a number of people 00:14:01.969 --> 00:14:06.467 here who have done an undergraduate degree here, gone someplace else for a 00:14:06.500 --> 00:14:09.496 graduate degree, and ultimately wanted to come back to the Southwest 00:14:09.529 --> 00:14:14.456 through this institution for any number of reasons. It just happened to 00:14:14.489 --> 00:14:19.686 work out for me that I got to stay here the whole time. I did get my PhD 00:14:19.719 --> 00:14:25.366 in psychology here and again I, I could have gone other places, but the, 00:14:25.399 --> 00:14:28.726 the expense and inconvenience of going other places didn't appeal to me 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:32.846 when ASU's psych program is one of the best in the country and I'm talking 00:14:32.879 --> 00:14:38.307 like the year I was in the there were something like 400 applicants and 00:14:38.340 --> 00:14:43.667 they only chose 4, you know, and there were other programs that were. 00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:46.186 There that were even more competitive than the one I was in. 00:14:46.219 --> 00:14:51.025 Competitiveness doesn't necessarily help define what goodness is, but once 00:14:51.058 --> 00:14:54.706 you get into a program like that, if you think the fit is good, you're 00:14:54.739 --> 00:14:59.025 crazy not to go if that's part of your your goals. So that's one of the 00:14:59.058 --> 00:15:06.907 reasons I stayed here, but then I demonstrated my effectiveness and. Um, 00:15:06.940 --> 00:15:11.645 responsibility, my commitment, my work ethic, etc. enough that when I was 00:15:11.678 --> 00:15:14.866 finishing grad school there was a constellation of things that happened, a 00:15:14.899 --> 00:15:20.145 confluence of events that that I was invited to stay in a position there 00:15:20.178 --> 00:15:25.467 and then there were some, uh, but you grow and you change and I've always 00:15:25.500 --> 00:15:30.307 tended towards interdisciplinary thinking. So there was a nationally 00:15:30.340 --> 00:15:35.066 competed job posted they were getting applications from around the US and 00:15:35.099 --> 00:15:40.025 around the world. That's how most faculty positions are hired, so I, I got 00:15:40.058 --> 00:15:44.375 hired into interdisciplinary studies and spent many years there. I grew 00:15:44.408 --> 00:15:49.547 and changed some more and then entered a competitive search and ultimately 00:15:49.580 --> 00:15:53.537 found my way to bear it. Yeah, that that was gonna be my next question. 00:15:53.570 --> 00:15:57.125 How did you, because you were in a variety of departments before you came 00:15:57.158 --> 00:16:02.456 to I was in the psychology department and then I was in leadership and 00:16:02.489 --> 00:16:07.616 interdisciplinary studies, which when I my undergrad, as we've discussed 00:16:07.649 --> 00:16:12.856 was in communication with the the psychology and business aspects too, but 00:16:12.889 --> 00:16:17.496 even within there there's interdisciplinarineness and at the time the 00:16:17.529 --> 00:16:21.366 field of communication was pretty young. So a lot of the research that we 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:24.765 read in the upper division classes came out of psychology or social 00:16:24.798 --> 00:16:30.167 psychology or organizational psychology. So I decided to pursue psychology 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:38.200 for graduate school, but um Yeah, it was an important in a university like 00:16:39.009 --> 00:16:43.456 this you can recreate yourself without having to switch universities 00:16:43.489 --> 00:16:49.015 because there's so many schools and colleges that. I then steeped myself 00:16:49.048 --> 00:16:54.986 in interdisciplinary theory for a number of years and then decided how can 00:16:55.019 --> 00:17:01.265 I take all of that and take it into a space that is working with extra 00:17:01.298 --> 00:17:06.186 motivated and extra prepared students compared to to uh the mix that 00:17:06.219 --> 00:17:10.467 you'll get out in the more general population and still pull from 00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:16.416 different disciplines as we do in the human event. But uh honor the 00:17:16.449 --> 00:17:20.815 history and wisdom of the past as we also look at how it's current to how 00:17:20.848 --> 00:17:27.284 we live our lives now. Yeah. Um, in your clip on ASUhistory.com, where you 00:17:27.317 --> 00:17:30.966 describe your book Arizona State University, um, you said when Denise and 00:17:30.999 --> 00:17:34.865 I decided to study ASU's history, a large motivation was to expand our own 00:17:34.898 --> 00:17:37.905 appreciation of the place and share it with others. How has your 00:17:37.938 --> 00:17:43.147 appreciation of ASU changed with your findings? Well, you already know of 00:17:43.180 --> 00:17:48.387 my humble innocent kind of beginnings in encountering this this physical 00:17:48.420 --> 00:17:52.055 space and the people on it and sometimes we just move through our world 00:17:52.088 --> 00:17:55.706 and we don't really even especially now you see students glued to their 00:17:55.739 --> 00:18:02.097 phones, they're not even looking at the people around them, but uh it. 00:18:02.130 --> 00:18:05.897 It's amazing if you're walking from here to the MU or you're walking from 00:18:05.930 --> 00:18:10.377 here to wherever, you could be passing people that are working on curing 00:18:10.410 --> 00:18:16.597 cancer or solving the world. Resource problems around 8 million tons of 00:18:16.630 --> 00:18:21.956 plastic going into the ocean every year or how to help developing nations 00:18:21.989 --> 00:18:27.097 have clean water. You you are passing by the faculty and the staff that 00:18:27.130 --> 00:18:34.026 are changing the world, and we just tend to think of ASU as this a lot of 00:18:34.059 --> 00:18:37.877 people I shouldn't overgeneralize, but you know it's just this institution 00:18:37.910 --> 00:18:42.637 that sort of took over TEMP or helped grow TEMP, and it's the sun devils 00:18:42.670 --> 00:18:48.256 and it's. Causing traffic or it's causing parking issues I think the focus 00:18:48.289 --> 00:18:53.607 should be on what this institution does in developing the lives of each 00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:57.266 individual person that's studying here as well as what they're doing in 00:18:57.299 --> 00:18:59.857 terms of their community embeddedness and the ways that they're 00:18:59.890 --> 00:19:07.147 contributing to. To research and practices that actually help the world, 00:19:07.180 --> 00:19:11.746 so I already started to get a sense of that the more I was in psychology 00:19:11.779 --> 00:19:16.186 and interdisciplinary studies and when I started researching that digging 00:19:16.219 --> 00:19:21.147 into existing archival information as well as trying to find anybody under 00:19:21.180 --> 00:19:26.597 the sun who I could talk to from. Different stages of the university's 00:19:26.630 --> 00:19:29.335 growth and different disciplines. 00:19:29.368 --> 00:19:33.756 It's humbling to see all of the different things that people are doing, 00:19:33.789 --> 00:19:38.835 and I, I can't really remember the stem of your question, but what did I 00:19:38.868 --> 00:19:45.585 learn? I learned that my My native sense that something important is going 00:19:45.618 --> 00:19:51.117 on here. It's just really expanded in terms of every person I pass. Maybe 00:19:51.150 --> 00:19:55.785 they're just doing this because their parents told them to go uh maybe 00:19:55.818 --> 00:20:00.946 they just want a better job, but that can be part of it, but I think that 00:20:00.979 --> 00:20:05.835 there's just as many or greater number that while of course we need jobs, 00:20:05.868 --> 00:20:13.868 um, there's something more to it and. Yeah, that makes of, of respect and 00:20:14.380 --> 00:20:18.107 humility because in the grand scheme compared to some of those people, I 00:20:18.140 --> 00:20:21.867 feel like a drop in the bucket, but we all have our own different way of 00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:26.426 of contributing and it usually does take a team effort. Expanding on that 00:20:26.459 --> 00:20:30.506 , um, what was your most interesting discovery and what was the reaction 00:20:30.539 --> 00:20:35.756 to it like? Oh, the most interesting discovery. I know you looked at the, 00:20:35.789 --> 00:20:38.726 the book online, but I don't know if you've looked at it yet, but I mean 00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:45.825 there's just so much of it in there. I It's hard to say. You should look 00:20:45.858 --> 00:20:52.107 at it when you get a chance. It's just so fun and snippets that you know 00:20:52.140 --> 00:20:56.426 you can absorb, and I wish I had time to look that over a couple things 00:20:56.459 --> 00:21:00.847 that come to mind that here's a silly one that people. 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:06.967 Often relate to, but there was a, the Boy Scouts built a cabin in the 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:12.726 attic of Old Maine. I think that was a surprise to me. It was also a 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:19.426 surprise to me on a more like serious note that John S Armstrong. 00:21:19.459 --> 00:21:26.436 Who Was basically the founder of ASU hardly ever was getting the credit 00:21:26.469 --> 00:21:34.469 that my research indicated that he was due because of he moved away and 00:21:34.779 --> 00:21:40.266 another important person in the history of the college is is Hayden so you 00:21:40.299 --> 00:21:43.627 you would hear a lot about Hayden because Hayden's family was still here 00:21:43.660 --> 00:21:47.847 and it's easy to find to interview and. And all of that and certainly he 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:53.565 he played a role but Janice Armstrong was the person that that went to the 00:21:53.598 --> 00:21:56.686 legislature. He's the one that was the teacher. He and his wife that could 00:21:56.719 --> 00:22:01.285 see that this this area would be a perfect place to do teacher training. 00:22:01.318 --> 00:22:07.887 So as I said before, everything's a team effort, but I, I gained a new 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:13.285 respect for that founding father, if you will, and I don't know if you 00:22:13.318 --> 00:22:20.406 know but one of his um. Would it be great grandsons, great great, um, I 00:22:20.439 --> 00:22:27.835 think it's great grandson is WP Carey. So, you know, that that descendant 00:22:27.868 --> 00:22:31.986 went on to honor his ancestors. 00:22:32.019 --> 00:22:36.246 Uh, what he started, so there is a building named after Armstrong. It was 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:40.176 Armstrong Hall and he's connected to the law department, but I think they 00:22:40.209 --> 00:22:44.857 should name a street after Armstrong, if not officially somehow put one of 00:22:44.890 --> 00:22:47.617 those little signs and make it, you know, Armstrong Way or something 00:22:47.650 --> 00:22:54.446 because I think he was really key. Other things just. It it didn't matter 00:22:54.479 --> 00:22:59.815 what I was looking at. There was some interesting appreciation. That 00:22:59.848 --> 00:23:05.746 developed. I'll think I'll try and think of anything. You came to mind. 00:23:05.779 --> 00:23:09.347 Well, I don't know if you knew Barbara Barrett was a student at ASU. I did. 00:23:09.380 --> 00:23:13.147 I actually got to interview her. Yes, and I did too, and that she's of 00:23:13.180 --> 00:23:17.986 course an inspiration and I made sure to work a picture of her in there 00:23:18.019 --> 00:23:24.276 because I think um she's such a positive role model and of course. An 00:23:24.309 --> 00:23:28.315 important figure in the development of the university via their 00:23:28.348 --> 00:23:33.236 contribution to Barrett. Yeah, I guess we should move on. I'll try and 00:23:33.269 --> 00:23:37.825 think, think if there's something else that stood out to me. Oh you know 00:23:37.858 --> 00:23:40.637 just have you, I don't know if you've noticed because people are glued to 00:23:40.670 --> 00:23:45.055 their phones, but. There's so many beautiful plants and Palm Walk and 00:23:45.088 --> 00:23:48.857 digging into the history of how Palm Walk started and finding those 00:23:48.890 --> 00:23:52.916 pictures of when the palm trees were so little and look at them now, it's 00:23:52.949 --> 00:23:57.857 it's interesting that we really are building on the shoulders of the 00:23:57.890 --> 00:24:02.456 thoughtful work of people that came before us. 00:24:02.489 --> 00:24:05.377 Have you ever thought of teaching a course about your findings from your 00:24:05.410 --> 00:24:12.097 co-authored book, Arizona State University? Um, I had until just now, but 00:24:12.130 --> 00:24:16.256 I think that that's not a bad idea. I could think that through because it 00:24:16.289 --> 00:24:20.766 really does pull from multiple disciplines and whether a student was 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:28.256 interested in history or not, there could be an appreciation for, yes, the 00:24:28.289 --> 00:24:35.035 history of how. The seeds of the. The aspirations and design imperatives 00:24:35.068 --> 00:24:39.647 that we talk about now and how ASU is number one in innovation now. Part 00:24:39.680 --> 00:24:42.357 of that is through the leadership of President Crow and the great 00:24:42.390 --> 00:24:47.996 contributions of the faculty and our inclusive approach to how we um admit 00:24:48.029 --> 00:24:52.555 students, but it also is partly due to the foundation that was put in 00:24:52.588 --> 00:24:55.996 place by these others. The seeds of all of those things we brag about now 00:24:56.029 --> 00:24:59.916 were already in place in the past, so I think there could be a segment in 00:24:59.949 --> 00:25:04.315 a class that helps people understand the identity of a university and the 00:25:04.348 --> 00:25:08.236 role in a community in the world that could look at it economically, 00:25:08.269 --> 00:25:14.266 socially. Um, From all politically a number of different levels plus 00:25:14.299 --> 00:25:19.666 students could dig into the specific disciplines or research areas that 00:25:19.699 --> 00:25:24.785 they're interested in using some of this as a springboard I think it could 00:25:24.818 --> 00:25:29.766 be possible. Do you have a sense that students are actually interested in 00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:35.226 the institution or are they just kind of like this is where I go 5 days a 00:25:35.259 --> 00:25:39.585 week and. I'm gonna graduate from there. I mean, I think especially in 00:25:39.618 --> 00:25:42.305 Barrett, you could have a good number of students who are interested in 00:25:42.338 --> 00:25:46.627 learning about the history of this college. I mean, we're doing a project 00:25:46.660 --> 00:25:50.785 that's a course of people that are interested in how Barrett was formed, 00:25:50.818 --> 00:25:54.627 so I think certainly there are people that are interested in how Arizona 00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:59.097 State was formed and um just from the short clip that I watched, I tried 00:25:59.130 --> 00:26:02.026 to find the book but the bookstore didn't have it. Oh, you probably find 00:26:02.059 --> 00:26:07.805 it on Amazon or a bookstore. But um I mean I I I just think people would 00:26:07.838 --> 00:26:13.006 be really interested in learning it. I'll keep that in mind. Let me know 00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:17.006 if you make the course. Um, kind of seguing from that one, have you ever 00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:19.887 thought of teaching a course about your findings from the book Legendary 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:24.967 Locals of Tempe? Well, similarly, I guess the same principles would apply 00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:31.166 . I think there are people that are interested in local art scene, local 00:26:31.199 --> 00:26:36.266 politics, local. I guess music could be part of the art scene. All of the 00:26:36.299 --> 00:26:40.357 same things that I talked about in regard to ASU could be connected to 00:26:40.390 --> 00:26:45.746 Tempe. In fact, one of the reasons that I wrote the Tepe book is because I 00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:49.946 encountered so many interesting people that just weren't the right fit for 00:26:49.979 --> 00:26:56.266 this book, but ASCU and Tempe grew up hand in hand and they they just 00:26:56.299 --> 00:27:00.815 needed to be. Discussed or acknowledged in some way so that other book 00:27:00.848 --> 00:27:04.055 needed to be written and I probably could have written volumes a separate 00:27:04.088 --> 00:27:08.217 , in fact, I did consider doing multiple volumes, but I decided it'd be 00:27:08.250 --> 00:27:12.196 better to have one accessible. 00:27:12.229 --> 00:27:18.877 Volume than to have people having to choose between them or the like, so 00:27:18.910 --> 00:27:22.226 maybe it could be a class that combines them. But that was my next 00:27:22.259 --> 00:27:26.565 suggestion. I will be thinking on these things. I think it would be really 00:27:26.598 --> 00:27:30.835 interesting. You could bring in some local uh speakers either from ASU or 00:27:30.868 --> 00:27:35.335 other places and and have them may perhaps interview one person that 00:27:35.368 --> 00:27:40.835 they're interested in. I appreciate the idea. I learned so much from my 00:27:40.868 --> 00:27:45.266 students and other people's students. Well, thank you. I'm glad you like 00:27:45.299 --> 00:27:49.107 it. Um, so in your paper there and back again, learning from the history 00:27:49.140 --> 00:27:52.627 of a freshman seminar sequence, you described the evolution of this course 00:27:52.660 --> 00:27:58.107 , the the human event. Um, in what ways do you see the course evolving 00:27:58.140 --> 00:28:01.045 moving forward? 00:28:01.078 --> 00:28:05.107 To some degree I'm not sure that it it needs to evolve. That's not to say 00:28:05.140 --> 00:28:08.926 that it won't or that we won't experiment in some way or another going 00:28:08.959 --> 00:28:13.147 forward, but I actually don't think, uh, what's the expression, if it's 00:28:13.180 --> 00:28:18.516 not broken don't fix it and. 00:28:18.549 --> 00:28:22.555 We've, we've done these tweaks at being much, much more conscious of, of 00:28:22.588 --> 00:28:28.387 incorporating underrepresented voices or non-western. And we did that 00:28:28.420 --> 00:28:32.305 experiment I talked about in there in terms of going deeper into some 00:28:32.338 --> 00:28:35.545 specific domain or helping appreciate the perspective people would come 00:28:35.578 --> 00:28:40.226 from differently and I'm, I'm glad that we tried that experiment and I'm 00:28:40.259 --> 00:28:45.075 also glad that we moved away from it for the reasons I discussed. There 00:28:45.108 --> 00:28:49.575 there's ideas thrown around somehow every uh sometimes now and then, for 00:28:49.608 --> 00:28:55.897 instance. A number of people would like to reduce the amount of writing in 00:28:55.930 --> 00:28:59.575 the class or when we're being really bold even talk about getting rid of 00:28:59.608 --> 00:29:04.256 the writing component altogether but then that would put all of the 00:29:04.289 --> 00:29:08.295 pressure on the public discourse side and there's always some students who 00:29:08.328 --> 00:29:12.656 don't participate as much but their writing really is is good and you can 00:29:12.689 --> 00:29:17.736 see their thinking and engagement there and there's other students who are 00:29:17.769 --> 00:29:21.867 excellent. Discussant and they need to work on their writings. So what 00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:28.555 we've we've learned is that to help you, the royal you of the Barrett 00:29:28.588 --> 00:29:33.637 students be their best to have both components because just resting on the 00:29:33.670 --> 00:29:36.956 laurels of what they think things should be like or what they did in high 00:29:36.989 --> 00:29:41.597 school usually isn't going to be enough and if without a class like this, 00:29:41.630 --> 00:29:45.676 they may not be as well prepared for doing their thesis or some of the 00:29:45.709 --> 00:29:51.555 more rigorous honors contracts, etc. So we would in some way like to 00:29:51.588 --> 00:29:57.035 emphasize the public discourse because we'd like the quieter people to 00:29:57.068 --> 00:30:01.045 speak up in a day and age we're learning how to engage in polite 00:30:01.078 --> 00:30:04.476 evidence-based discourse instead of just shouting each other down and 00:30:04.509 --> 00:30:08.996 twisting evidence to use it however we want, but really having thoughtful 00:30:09.029 --> 00:30:13.217 discourse we need to see that more in the media than we do and. So that's 00:30:13.250 --> 00:30:17.575 an important contribution this class makes to the future citizenry and 00:30:17.608 --> 00:30:23.217 leaders, but being able to do that in writing is important too, so it 00:30:23.250 --> 00:30:28.156 would be easier for us to grade if we didn't have the writing component. 00:30:28.189 --> 00:30:31.815 So you know people throw ideas around and maybe we'll experiment with some 00:30:31.848 --> 00:30:37.416 of those sometime, but I kind of doubt it because uh it does work as a 00:30:37.449 --> 00:30:42.367 cohesive thread to help prepare the students for more rigorous training. 00:30:42.400 --> 00:30:47.617 And build cohesion, give them a chance to, in a relatively safe space of 00:30:47.650 --> 00:30:51.627 the human event class, try on a lot of things, open their mind, learn to 00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:55.035 take on different perspectives. 00:30:55.068 --> 00:30:57.996 How do you think the evolution of the course has impacted um the student's 00:30:58.029 --> 00:31:03.266 ability to think both critically and creatively? Oh, I, based on what the 00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:06.706 students tell me, I'm sure you're gonna just, you know, the normal bell 00:31:06.739 --> 00:31:10.506 curve, right? But there's most people are going to fall in this average 00:31:10.539 --> 00:31:14.217 space and some are going to Be excellent and some are going to be below 00:31:14.250 --> 00:31:18.097 average. I think you might get that kind of bell curve if you were to talk 00:31:18.130 --> 00:31:22.617 to students about the human event. There's gonna be most of them are gonna 00:31:22.650 --> 00:31:26.416 like it OK, know that they got some value of it. I think our our curve 00:31:26.449 --> 00:31:30.256 skews to the higher end, even if they don't appreciate it in the moment 00:31:30.289 --> 00:31:34.065 they're in it or right after they get out, when they look back at their 4 00:31:34.098 --> 00:31:38.535 or 5 years in college, they realize that that was. A different sort of 00:31:38.568 --> 00:31:42.016 class that helped them in meaningful ways they can't always recognize it 00:31:42.049 --> 00:31:44.916 right away, so I think it would skew positive, but you're always gonna 00:31:44.949 --> 00:31:48.776 have some that are are more of the cheerleaders and some that say I edit 00:31:48.809 --> 00:31:52.776 it, I edit it, you know, whatever, but I tend to think people get out of 00:31:52.809 --> 00:31:57.656 it what they put into it, which is a bit cliche, but I think it's true. 00:31:57.689 --> 00:32:03.736 But even those that don't always put their best selves into it, um. I 00:32:03.769 --> 00:32:07.926 don't know how they can't get a little bit better at their creative and 00:32:07.959 --> 00:32:12.967 critical thinking through just being there and listening to the discussion 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:17.805 and taking whatever growth risks they took in their own participation or 00:32:17.838 --> 00:32:21.325 writing. How do you think that that compares to the history of ideas, 00:32:21.358 --> 00:32:26.127 courses, um, with consideration that transfer students have kind of 00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:32.315 they've had life experience prior to coming to ASU. Yeah, uh, in an ideal 00:32:32.348 --> 00:32:36.236 world I'd still love to even see the transfer students have a two semester 00:32:36.269 --> 00:32:40.075 sequence. In an ideal ideal world, I'd like to see the human event be a 3 00:32:40.108 --> 00:32:43.956 semester sequence because we, you know, we start with the most ancient 00:32:43.989 --> 00:32:48.075 texts and move through about Renaissance in the fall or in the first class 00:32:48.108 --> 00:32:51.956 and then around Renaissance to modern in the spring and there's usually in 00:32:51.989 --> 00:32:56.361 any one person's arc of development there's something that gets. Slide it 00:32:56.394 --> 00:33:00.450 a little bit either the deep ancients or the Middle Ages or something gets 00:33:00.483 --> 00:33:03.842 slided, and I think there's so much more wealth of knowledge that we could 00:33:03.875 --> 00:33:08.081 explore and the extra semester would give the students even more time to 00:33:08.114 --> 00:33:13.762 develop as as readers and thinkers and writers. But so I would love to see 00:33:13.795 --> 00:33:19.641 the the transfer students do too, but that's unlikely in the grand scheme 00:33:19.674 --> 00:33:23.627 of the over busyness and speed that. That some of our educational 00:33:23.660 --> 00:33:30.065 components require. I do think that they may be, it's hard to say, 00:33:30.098 --> 00:33:34.055 Courtney. I think that the, the history of ideas students that I've 00:33:34.088 --> 00:33:39.347 encountered. Have been comparable. It is true that they have more life 00:33:39.380 --> 00:33:43.597 experience, so sometimes they can bring a little bit more wisdom to the 00:33:43.630 --> 00:33:47.676 table, but the other side of that is sometimes the longer we've walked the 00:33:47.709 --> 00:33:51.315 earth, the more set in our ways we can get, and it can be a little bit 00:33:51.348 --> 00:33:56.776 harder to crack open the egg of of being more open minded, but I I can't 00:33:56.809 --> 00:34:01.436 really report that I've had any problems on those fronts, but that's those 00:34:01.469 --> 00:34:06.766 are possibilities, and it may just depend on. The group of students you 00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:11.227 get, you know, 11 thing I'd actually like to add to that, I took um 00:34:11.260 --> 00:34:15.606 history of ideas cause um cause I like transferred into Barrett as a 00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:20.727 junior, um, and I was the only non-transfer student in my class, um. Yeah 00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:24.236 , I actually don't have very much to say about it, um, but I, I get what 00:34:24.269 --> 00:34:29.037 you're saying though. I was there. I do think that some of them are 00:34:29.070 --> 00:34:33.577 because they're already more ensconced in their life, they're busier. 00:34:33.610 --> 00:34:36.336 It's hard to believe because I know you're already we're all already so 00:34:36.369 --> 00:34:40.135 busy, but they may be busy sometimes in different ways that makes the 00:34:40.168 --> 00:34:45.925 class be a nice break, a place to sit and think about some of these 00:34:45.958 --> 00:34:50.155 important interesting things, but for other people. The class is a lot of 00:34:50.188 --> 00:34:53.276 work and it's it's something that they need to integrate in but if you're 00:34:53.309 --> 00:34:56.686 going to an honors college it's not just that something's more work it's 00:34:56.719 --> 00:34:59.816 not that we're just giving you more work because you're in an honors 00:34:59.849 --> 00:35:07.095 college it's just organically more work to be a more um. More of a seeker 00:35:07.128 --> 00:35:12.057 trying to get a better, more rigorous experience. I don't know. Did that 00:35:12.090 --> 00:35:16.776 cover that enough? Yes, thank you so much. OK, yeah, um, what would you 00:35:16.809 --> 00:35:23.706 say has been your proudest moment in your time at Barrett? Hm. Hm, 00:35:23.739 --> 00:35:28.227 proudest moment. 00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:32.595 Well, I haven't really thought about proudest. I can tell you some proud 00:35:32.628 --> 00:35:37.635 moments. I mean, it was, I felt some pride in being selected to join 00:35:37.668 --> 00:35:43.316 Barrett because these are a great group of colleagues that are. You know, 00:35:43.349 --> 00:35:48.686 when I'm in my we we all probably have these moments where we're like, oh 00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:53.236 , other people are smarter than I am, or am I gonna fit in and some of 00:35:53.269 --> 00:35:58.037 these people speak Latin and Greek and all these other fancy fancy things 00:35:58.070 --> 00:36:03.776 and and I don't, but we all have something that we bring to the table and 00:36:03.809 --> 00:36:09.336 that's one of the things I like a lot about being in a. A department, a 00:36:09.369 --> 00:36:14.577 college that's interdisciplinary at its core. We still probably skew 00:36:14.610 --> 00:36:18.977 towards more history or literature people and they can all be very 00:36:19.010 --> 00:36:22.057 different from each other as well. I'm not saying they're all cut from the 00:36:22.090 --> 00:36:28.385 same. Uh, cookie cutter, but I do like it when we hire people from social 00:36:28.418 --> 00:36:32.345 and natural sciences or from other kinds of things or when people have an 00:36:32.378 --> 00:36:37.046 interdisciplinary background because it helps us realize you can just go 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:40.986 up and down this hall and if if there's a text you you're just not 100% 00:36:41.019 --> 00:36:44.425 sure about or you're thinking about taking something new on, there's 00:36:44.458 --> 00:36:48.307 somebody around here who knows stuff about that better than you do, so I, 00:36:48.340 --> 00:36:53.787 I think. One can feel pride in standing in the place of what they bring to 00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:58.425 the table and at the same time feeling humility when you look at all the 00:36:58.458 --> 00:37:02.796 things you don't bring to the table and it helps you realize that we're 00:37:02.829 --> 00:37:07.546 we're a good group, especially when we work together. Um, I felt pride 00:37:07.579 --> 00:37:11.905 when students nominated me for that excellence and diversity award or the 00:37:11.938 --> 00:37:15.747 Centennial professorship. These are since I've been to Barrett. I mean, I 00:37:15.780 --> 00:37:21.595 was nominated for other things before. But um there's an Apple polisher 00:37:21.628 --> 00:37:25.796 award that students that are those sun devil, the devil's advocates that 00:37:25.829 --> 00:37:31.876 walk around backwards and give tours you know they pick somebody and I've 00:37:31.909 --> 00:37:35.195 been chosen for that. I like it when I, I guess it's just like anybody 00:37:35.228 --> 00:37:37.635 else you like a little pat on the back now and then or a little 00:37:37.668 --> 00:37:41.276 recognition even if you don't win it. I know some of my students are 00:37:41.309 --> 00:37:46.506 nominating me right now for a faculty Women's association mentoring award 00:37:46.539 --> 00:37:50.557 and. I'm sorry to say that on tape because now if I don't get it, well I 00:37:50.590 --> 00:37:54.195 guess I did say I didn't get all those other ones too, but what's 00:37:54.228 --> 00:37:58.276 interesting is I used to work almost exclusively in interdisciplinary 00:37:58.309 --> 00:38:05.155 studies I was working exclusively with juniors and seniors, and they, they 00:38:05.188 --> 00:38:08.635 had a different understanding. I actually did win some of the awards they 00:38:08.668 --> 00:38:13.365 put me up for, but as over here working mostly with freshmen. They're 00:38:13.398 --> 00:38:17.675 they're not into the system quite yet, you know, and they're not and 00:38:17.708 --> 00:38:22.845 they're still very much thinking about um their own survival as opposed to 00:38:22.878 --> 00:38:28.686 who's really contributing to their development. I'm proud about all the 00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:33.796 different things that my my students are trying to do or are doing which I 00:38:33.829 --> 00:38:37.767 become aware of through when they ask me for advice or letters of 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:42.066 recommendation. I'm I'm proud of some of the things I think I've 00:38:42.099 --> 00:38:46.747 contributed to our development as a as a faculty, however subtle they may 00:38:46.780 --> 00:38:52.186 be, I try and be a good colleague and help us come up with policies or 00:38:52.219 --> 00:38:56.876 perspectives that help us be collaborative instead of competitive, etc. 00:38:56.909 --> 00:38:58.956 Yeah. 00:38:58.989 --> 00:39:02.057 I guess, yeah, I'm proud when books come out and stuff. I'm proud when I 00:39:02.090 --> 00:39:07.856 get my human event grading done. I'm also exhausted. Yeah, I bet slot 00:39:07.889 --> 00:39:12.416 papers. Um, what legacy do you hope to leave from your time as a principal 00:39:12.449 --> 00:39:17.416 faculty honors fellow at Barrett? Well, I guess building off of what I was 00:39:17.449 --> 00:39:23.077 just saying, I think the, the most important legacy is, is my students, 00:39:23.110 --> 00:39:27.936 and I know I'm not their only teacher. And I know some of them have a love 00:39:27.969 --> 00:39:35.017 hate feeling for me or the class, but I do believe that whether they're 00:39:35.050 --> 00:39:38.615 aware of it or not, or would admit it or not, I think I hope that they're 00:39:38.648 --> 00:39:42.936 getting some value from every course they're taking at ASU, but I know 00:39:42.969 --> 00:39:49.296 that I put everything I can into every course I teach and even though I've 00:39:49.329 --> 00:39:54.486 been teaching a very long time. And I'm generally well regarded as a 00:39:54.519 --> 00:40:00.646 teacher. I don't stop learning. I took that, um, I took a graduate level 00:40:00.679 --> 00:40:05.517 course that ASU wanted some of the faculty to kind of pilot and see if 00:40:05.550 --> 00:40:08.327 they thought it would, if we thought it would be a good course for new 00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:13.537 teachers to take. And that took a ton of time and I knew a lot of what 00:40:13.570 --> 00:40:17.577 they taught but I still got new ideas and I'm always asking for feedback I 00:40:17.610 --> 00:40:21.606 get ideas from teaching assistants and process things with them. So legacy 00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:29.037 wise I'm trying to model and. And show that Even inside one person we can 00:40:29.070 --> 00:40:33.086 appreciate different disciplines that we can keep growing at. Any time of 00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:38.477 our life, I am still a work in progress and I hope that. The body of my 00:40:38.510 --> 00:40:42.796 work and my way of being helps students realize that they can be OK at 00:40:42.829 --> 00:40:48.077 whatever stage they're at it we're we're not fully baked ever and that we 00:40:48.110 --> 00:40:53.925 can keep um improving and that. If they carry with them some sort of 00:40:53.958 --> 00:40:59.066 insider attitude or habit of mind into their other classes or how they 00:40:59.099 --> 00:41:03.827 live their life or how they serve as a citizen, then I guess I'm playing 00:41:03.860 --> 00:41:09.586 my role because I, I may not ever win some big gigantic prize, but each 00:41:09.619 --> 00:41:13.115 student is a prize. 00:41:13.148 --> 00:41:15.776 Well, thank you so much for your participation. If you have any more 00:41:15.809 --> 00:41:18.595 thoughts to share later, please feel free to reach out, and if you have 00:41:18.628 --> 00:41:21.876 any questions about this interview or the 30th anniversary oral history 00:41:21.909 --> 00:41:27.155 project, please contact my Steamoo. I will, and also we didn't do that 00:41:27.188 --> 00:41:30.997 thing where you got the room noise, so do we want to just be quiet for a 00:41:31.030 --> 00:41:39.030 couple of minutes? We should use your recording. OK, yeah, um. 00:41:39.148 --> 00:41:43.836 It didn't work. I, I did the recording, but it, it ended up using my 00:41:43.869 --> 00:41:47.356 laptop speaker. I couldn't get it. I didn't know. That's OK. That's why we 00:41:47.389 --> 00:41:50.345 have backups. OK. 00:41:50.378 --> 00:41:54.675 All right. All right, well it was nice to meet you ladies. It was so nice 00:41:54.708 --> 00:42:00.396 meeting you, Doctor Lewis. Thank you so much. I am so sorry. That's right. 00:42:00.429 --> 00:42:03.070 That's what my students.