WEBVTT 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:05.915 This is Paul, her and Jennifer Sweeney of Arizona State University 00:00:05.948 --> 00:00:10.706 interviewing Bob Lynch at his home in Phoenix, Arizona on January 20th, 00:00:10.739 --> 00:00:18.625 2019, 2020 who we have gone into a New Year and a new decade. Thanks, Bob. 00:00:18.658 --> 00:00:22.346 So that's a good example of, of why you're such an important person to 00:00:22.379 --> 00:00:28.997 interview because you are. I'm glad I didn't shine my shoes. Besides, it's 00:00:29.030 --> 00:00:32.815 not a new decade. It's the last year of the old. Well, technically it is, 00:00:32.848 --> 00:00:35.426 but most people think it's the beginning of the new decade. But you are 00:00:35.459 --> 00:00:39.557 right about that too. Um Why don't you just start out by um telling us 00:00:39.590 --> 00:00:43.326 your name, the positions you held in the Adaptive Management Program in 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:49.996 the years that you've been involved? Well, my full name is Robert S Lynch. 00:00:50.029 --> 00:00:57.557 I'm an attorney uh here in Phoenix, uh been a member of the bar since 00:00:57.590 --> 00:01:01.717 August 27th, 1964. 00:01:01.750 --> 00:01:09.750 Uh and uh I uh practice natural resources law, which is how I ended up 00:01:10.900 --> 00:01:18.900 back here. Uh Having left law school and past the bar, been sworn in, got 00:01:21.388 --> 00:01:25.076 in the Marine Corps, gone out of the Marine Corps into the justice 00:01:25.109 --> 00:01:31.406 Department and then back here to work on the Central Arizona Project, uh, 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:38.576 I really am not part of the Adaptive Management Program. I am essentially 00:01:38.609 --> 00:01:42.706 a spectator. Uh, 00:01:42.739 --> 00:01:47.516 you, I don't know if you've talked to Leslie James. Yeah. Well, her 00:01:47.549 --> 00:01:51.876 predecessor was a guy named Joe Hunter, a lobbyist who held that executive 00:01:51.909 --> 00:01:57.816 director position. And when, uh, they were after the criteria were adopted 00:01:57.849 --> 00:02:00.135 in 97 00:02:00.168 --> 00:02:06.516 uh, the Bureau and Park Service people were putting together the adaptive 00:02:06.549 --> 00:02:12.237 management work group and the technical work group and said that Creta 00:02:12.270 --> 00:02:20.020 could have two positions on each as long as I was not either one of them. 00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:22.639 And literally, he came and told me afterwards that he, that, that was the 00:02:26.069 --> 00:02:33.656 deal that they got two slots to keep me away. And so I've been, uh, on the 00:02:33.689 --> 00:02:41.396 sidelines watching, uh, well, since that started in the ni in 97 but I've 00:02:41.429 --> 00:02:49.186 been involved in Glen Can Dam issues since the early eighties when, uh, 00:02:49.219 --> 00:02:55.366 President Bush kicked off some of the or not Bush, um, 00:02:55.399 --> 00:03:02.566 that would have been Ronald Reagan, but there were 00:03:02.599 --> 00:03:04.717 issues 00:03:04.750 --> 00:03:12.750 with regard to Glen Canny Dam and, and, and, uh, Lake Powell and the river. 00:03:12.929 --> 00:03:16.467 And then in 92 00:03:16.500 --> 00:03:22.927 uh, Bush 43 started who got his secretary, the chair to start the Glen 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:28.116 Canyon environmental stay. So that sort of formalized 00:03:28.149 --> 00:03:36.149 but amounted to a decade of debate, uh, over what was going on and what 00:03:36.278 --> 00:03:44.278 you know, and, and all of that. So as a practical matter of, I've been on 00:03:44.460 --> 00:03:52.460 the sidelines, ping people, uh ever since. Well, let's talk about that a 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:58.237 little bit. What, um, what do you see as your role in, um, poking people 00:03:58.270 --> 00:04:02.096 uh from the sidelines in the Adaptive Management Program? I mean, you're a 00:04:02.129 --> 00:04:07.305 water lawyer among other things and uh kind of representing the State of 00:04:07.338 --> 00:04:11.767 Arizona on the Adaptive Management Program, there are representatives of 00:04:11.800 --> 00:04:16.075 each of the basin states and their water interest. Do you see yourself uh 00:04:16.108 --> 00:04:20.546 sort of in that category of somebody watching out for those issues, state 00:04:20.579 --> 00:04:23.217 water issues. 00:04:23.250 --> 00:04:29.096 Well, I get involved in state water issues, but my clients are primarily 00:04:29.129 --> 00:04:37.129 interested in the hydro private generation from Glen Canyon Dam. Uh While 00:04:37.629 --> 00:04:42.486 there are other hydroelectric facilities in this color river storage 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:50.519 project, it's 70% of that and it's a major source of power for the small 00:04:52.970 --> 00:05:00.970 entities, the utilities that I represent uh in Arizona and uh one and uh 00:05:02.309 --> 00:05:10.309 California. And uh and so we uh uh are concerned because, you know, the 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:17.046 smaller you are, the more important this resource is and any particular 00:05:17.079 --> 00:05:21.205 under the current criteria, any particular day of the week, you're leaving 00:05:21.238 --> 00:05:26.786 600 to 800 megawatts of capacity on the table not being used, which is a 00:05:26.819 --> 00:05:33.877 power plant, you know, and uh not to mention load following for an 00:05:33.910 --> 00:05:40.717 enormous amount of solar or wind. If you were to restructure how 00:05:40.750 --> 00:05:47.616 hydropower works. Uh Right now, hydropower follows load rather than 00:05:47.649 --> 00:05:54.796 generation, but it can also fo follow generation and it can follow both 00:05:54.829 --> 00:05:59.555 with what's called a dynamic signal and it's an electronic signal that has 00:05:59.588 --> 00:06:06.536 sent limited number of them to each generation facility about what that 00:06:06.569 --> 00:06:14.217 particular uh utility needs. And the uh operators at the other end have a 00:06:14.250 --> 00:06:22.250 computer program that melds those to try to adjust uh the operation within 00:06:22.889 --> 00:06:30.889 the parameters uh of operation of the dam. Uh And uh and Hoover, um the 00:06:34.858 --> 00:06:42.858 parameters are driven by water supply and downstream water works. Uh Glen 00:06:43.619 --> 00:06:51.619 Canyon, they drive, the power generation is driven by the uh 97 criteria 00:06:54.108 --> 00:07:01.075 and the subsequent criteria in the new EIS and rot. So people have to live 00:07:01.108 --> 00:07:08.596 within that and try to do what they can. Uh But uh things are about to get 00:07:08.629 --> 00:07:11.145 interesting. 00:07:11.178 --> 00:07:14.887 A lot is changing in the energy field today, isn't it? Well, it's not that 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:18.877 it's the lawsuit. 00:07:18.910 --> 00:07:24.166 The uh a group of environmentalists headed up by a group called Save the 00:07:24.199 --> 00:07:30.455 Colorado vote. The year of reclamation in July said 00:07:30.488 --> 00:07:34.765 your environmental impact statement, recorded decision for L temp is any 00:07:34.798 --> 00:07:40.955 good because you failed to take into account climate change, the drought 00:07:40.988 --> 00:07:44.055 contingency plan, 00:07:44.088 --> 00:07:52.088 couple of other things and so that dragged on. So they filed suit and the 00:07:54.379 --> 00:07:57.717 uh Creta has intervened. 00:07:57.750 --> 00:08:02.765 Uh I have a stack this tall that I had to get through so I can craft an 00:08:02.798 --> 00:08:08.036 intervention for my client. Uh 00:08:08.069 --> 00:08:16.069 And it, it, it, it's a novel issue. Everybody talks about climate change, 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:20.817 everybody talks about what you ought to do about this, that or the other 00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:27.776 thing. But 00:08:27.809 --> 00:08:32.726 to the best of my knowledge, there's one other case where the issue of 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:38.265 climate change, it has just been brought up this year and some litigation 00:08:38.298 --> 00:08:44.275 out of Montana. It's still in the, just finished the pleading stage and 00:08:44.308 --> 00:08:52.167 these two cases for the first time bring up the subject of how a dam 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:59.557 should be operated on a river system vis a vis climate change. Now you add 00:08:59.590 --> 00:09:06.537 to that, that the council on environmental quality came out with draft 00:09:06.570 --> 00:09:10.946 and then final guidance on how to deal with climate change and 00:09:10.979 --> 00:09:15.986 environmental impact statements. Uh Last summer, I think they finalized 00:09:16.019 --> 00:09:23.706 them in August and then came out with their proposed rewrite of certain 00:09:23.739 --> 00:09:31.739 portions of their quote regulations unquote. Uh uh I think the comment 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:38.696 period on that is March 10th. And so all of a sudden you have a, a 00:09:38.729 --> 00:09:44.635 changing field. One of the interesting aspects of that's going to be is 00:09:44.668 --> 00:09:48.566 that ce Q regulations aren't 00:09:48.599 --> 00:09:55.486 uh nobody talks about it, but the CE Q doesn't regulate anybody. And 00:09:55.519 --> 00:10:00.696 there's a Court of appeals, the District Columbia case that says so 00:10:00.729 --> 00:10:05.356 when they were originally uh formulated 00:10:05.389 --> 00:10:10.547 uh they're called guidance, and I wrote a lot of your article about how 00:10:10.580 --> 00:10:17.096 the agencies were responding to the cu guidance. Uh Apparently I was the 00:10:17.129 --> 00:10:24.057 only one who did, nobody seemed to think it was important. But, um, uh 00:10:24.090 --> 00:10:27.746 then during the Carter administration, they sort of migrated into the code 00:10:27.779 --> 00:10:30.956 of federal regulations miraculously, 00:10:30.989 --> 00:10:37.037 uh and it wasn't until this case was, I think, trying to remember, I think 00:10:37.070 --> 00:10:43.177 it was decided around 1998. I forget. Um, I've been chasing too many 00:10:43.210 --> 00:10:46.625 ghosts. Um, 00:10:46.658 --> 00:10:50.677 where the Court of appeals said, wait a minute. 00:10:50.710 --> 00:10:54.346 CQ doesn't regulate anybody. 00:10:54.379 --> 00:11:00.206 You know, they're an advisory body and the Executive Officer of the White 00:11:00.239 --> 00:11:04.476 House, you can put these things in the code of federal regulations if you 00:11:04.509 --> 00:11:12.206 want to, but then they're not regulations. Well, 00:11:12.239 --> 00:11:16.885 for one reason or another, that's 00:11:16.918 --> 00:11:20.255 not really 00:11:20.288 --> 00:11:23.057 got a lot of traction. 00:11:23.090 --> 00:11:25.515 But 00:11:25.548 --> 00:11:27.726 uh 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:34.807 with this issue of climate change and ce Q 00:11:34.840 --> 00:11:42.375 jumping into that in the context of N A, uh it is gonna get much more. 00:11:42.408 --> 00:11:47.657 It's just like the old Chinese curse. May you live in? Interesting times. 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:52.417 No, this is, this is gonna be, it's gonna be huge and, and, and people 00:11:52.450 --> 00:11:57.456 don't understand, you know, uh 00:11:57.489 --> 00:12:04.976 I'm not even sure the attorneys involved understand how big of a watershed 00:12:05.009 --> 00:12:12.145 an issue this is. But we'll find out uh interesting enough, the judge to 00:12:12.178 --> 00:12:17.859 which the case was assigned is the former general counsel of the governor. 00:12:18.149 --> 00:12:20.149 We used to be a litigator at Snow and Wilmer 00:12:21.798 --> 00:12:26.467 and then after his tour at the governor office, uh, with another firm, a 00:12:26.500 --> 00:12:33.005 national firm here, their local office. Uh, 00:12:33.038 --> 00:12:35.356 we 00:12:35.389 --> 00:12:40.436 see what he does with it. How do you think the issue of climate change or 00:12:40.469 --> 00:12:44.025 the reality of climate change? Ha, what kind of potential does it have to 00:12:44.058 --> 00:12:47.976 affect management decisions at Glen Canyon Dam? And on the Colorado River 00:12:48.009 --> 00:12:51.765 , you said, do you think it could be a big deal in what way? Well, it 00:12:51.798 --> 00:12:57.255 depends what the judge does for the case. You know, having filed the 00:12:57.288 --> 00:12:59.496 lawsuit, 00:12:59.529 --> 00:13:03.125 the uh 00:13:03.158 --> 00:13:08.967 issue about to manage that issue has basically been taken away from the 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:15.635 executive branch and given to the judicial branch and 00:13:15.668 --> 00:13:18.566 the judge will examine 00:13:18.599 --> 00:13:25.875 neighbor. Uh Interestingly enough, the draft new draft NP A quote regs 00:13:25.908 --> 00:13:31.307 unquote say that they can be applied to ongoing 00:13:31.340 --> 00:13:33.616 activities. 00:13:33.649 --> 00:13:36.206 Well, 00:13:36.239 --> 00:13:40.037 and w is enough ongoing activity. 00:13:40.070 --> 00:13:47.547 Uh What they do to the subject of 00:13:47.580 --> 00:13:53.476 dealing with alternatives, dealing with 00:13:53.509 --> 00:13:56.297 uh 00:13:56.330 --> 00:14:01.775 impacts like climate change. I mean, you have to say to yourself, uh what 00:14:01.808 --> 00:14:08.505 can they do about it? You know, what does operating 00:14:08.538 --> 00:14:12.956 reservoirs on the Colorado River have to do with climate change? You have 00:14:12.989 --> 00:14:18.255 to react to what is happening for whatever reason, it doesn't make any 00:14:18.288 --> 00:14:26.076 difference, what the reason is, you have to react to the, to that. And 00:14:26.109 --> 00:14:32.927 so what do you do about it? And uh 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:37.946 that normally would be an executive decision underneath us in the process 00:14:37.979 --> 00:14:44.706 of giving advice to a decision maker here, the secretary of the chair. But 00:14:44.739 --> 00:14:49.765 now we're in court with the same questions being asked 00:14:49.798 --> 00:14:57.798 and come. May, we will start the annual operating plan process um 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:04.967 for the Colorado River again. And I'm involved in that and this last 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:13.000 iteration, but just got signed here before it and signed the last July of. 00:15:14.298 --> 00:15:19.346 But uh they'll start this process again this spring. And I've even 00:15:19.379 --> 00:15:22.145 suggested to them that instead of waiting until May, they ought to start 00:15:22.178 --> 00:15:27.967 earlier. But it typically has three consultations in May, July and 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:32.576 September and they put something together and give it to the secretary and 00:15:32.609 --> 00:15:37.726 then he approves it and that's the operating plan for the next year for 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:40.106 this. 00:15:40.139 --> 00:15:43.297 A op 00:15:43.330 --> 00:15:50.586 not only does not discuss climate change, it doesn't discuss DC P. So the 00:15:50.619 --> 00:15:57.755 drought contingency plan. So I'm uh I'm, I'm, it's going to be an 00:15:57.788 --> 00:16:04.936 interesting spring because, because uh it's gonna be interesting to see uh 00:16:04.969 --> 00:16:11.005 what people think they have to talk about in terms of. Well, part of it is 00:16:11.038 --> 00:16:19.038 hydrology driven and, and the report itself uh is, is based on the August 00:16:19.109 --> 00:16:24.927 24 month study and then the January 24 month study that just came out. And 00:16:24.960 --> 00:16:29.856 then ultimately for the rest of that calendar year, the April 20 month 00:16:29.889 --> 00:16:36.797 study, which is the end of March data right now, the predictions 00:16:36.830 --> 00:16:44.196 uh well, where we are now is we've had a very good fall and winter. So far. 00:16:44.229 --> 00:16:49.336 Oh, dear. Sorry about that. We were gonna unplug that thing, were we? I 00:16:49.369 --> 00:16:52.467 forgot. Yeah, 00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:57.726 you want to pause for just a second. It's all right. And can you answer 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:03.936 that and get rid of whoever it is? 00:17:03.969 --> 00:17:09.506 That was a long ring. That last one? Oh, by the way, it's, those are all, 00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:16.956 uh, solicitation, solicitation goes, that's all right. They gave up. 00:17:16.989 --> 00:17:21.785 So, if you don't mind, can we go back to something you said near the 00:17:21.818 --> 00:17:27.175 beginning? Uh go ahead and pause, 00:17:27.208 --> 00:17:31.766 resume recording. If you don't mind, let's go back to something you said 00:17:31.799 --> 00:17:35.815 near the beginning of the interview, you mentioned that you have a number 00:17:35.848 --> 00:17:40.506 of clients who are interested in hydropower in the Columbia River Basin, 00:17:40.539 --> 00:17:44.285 Colorado River, Colorado River Basin. Did I say Columbia? Yeah, I used to 00:17:44.318 --> 00:17:50.026 live in Washington State so it just came out of me. Um So the Glen Canon 00:17:50.059 --> 00:17:54.756 Dam Adaptive Management Program is, is in essence, it's a collection of 00:17:54.789 --> 00:18:00.776 stakeholders trying to solve complex problems. And there are people who 00:18:00.809 --> 00:18:04.486 represent hydropower interests, water supply interests, wildlife interests 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:09.196 , recreation interests, and National Park tribal interests. Um Could you 00:18:09.229 --> 00:18:12.315 tell us a little bit more about um if you don't want to reveal your 00:18:12.348 --> 00:18:18.456 clients, at least what, what you represent, what you bring to the Adaptive 00:18:18.489 --> 00:18:21.666 Management Program in terms of your interests, what you're hoping to 00:18:21.699 --> 00:18:29.387 achieve in being involved. Well, I represent a state association, 00:18:29.420 --> 00:18:36.847 most of whose members by power from 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:41.357 the western area. Power administration generated among at other places 00:18:41.390 --> 00:18:45.416 other than Glen Canyon Dam up and down the river, but including Glen 00:18:45.449 --> 00:18:53.449 Canyon Dam and it is, and they're primarily small uh agriculturally based 00:18:54.180 --> 00:19:02.180 or rural towns. Uh And uh is this Creta? No, no, no, a different 00:19:03.078 --> 00:19:09.456 organization? Creta is a regional uh association, six states. But the 00:19:09.489 --> 00:19:15.656 types of entities uh that are in crete are the same types of entities that 00:19:15.689 --> 00:19:22.967 are in my state association, except that most of the ones we have are, are 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:31.000 very small and creed are, uh a number of them are quite large. Um And 00:19:34.868 --> 00:19:39.585 I, uh I mean, our, some of our people also get water off the Colorado 00:19:39.618 --> 00:19:43.805 River through the Central Arizona project and some of them get water off 00:19:43.838 --> 00:19:47.696 the river because they have their own water, right? Like the folks down in 00:19:47.729 --> 00:19:51.956 Yuma. And so 00:19:51.989 --> 00:19:55.097 we're one of the few places in the co in the country where you sort of 00:19:55.130 --> 00:20:01.097 meet yourself coming and going that, that you have people that are both in 00:20:01.130 --> 00:20:05.325 the Colorado River water business and the Colorado River Power business. 00:20:05.358 --> 00:20:13.358 And so you have to be aware of the synergism uh of decision making. Uh You 00:20:14.670 --> 00:20:18.486 , you can see that the Central Arizona Central Valley project in 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:20.535 California. 00:20:20.568 --> 00:20:27.857 Oh, oh, dear. Um And uh 00:20:27.890 --> 00:20:32.516 uh hit the pause button. I'm afraid that's the, I'm going to do the same 00:20:32.549 --> 00:20:37.357 thing I did last time resuming recording. 00:20:37.390 --> 00:20:41.416 All right. Well, we were talking about the intersection of, of water 00:20:41.449 --> 00:20:49.449 impair issues. And uh in Arizona, we have an almost but not quite unique 00:20:50.660 --> 00:20:58.660 situation where an awful lot of the entities that buy power from the dams 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:05.416 on the Colorado River also get water uh either through their own 00:21:05.449 --> 00:21:12.406 organization or sister organizations formed for that purpose. So, uh you 00:21:12.439 --> 00:21:20.439 have to, you have to see both sides of every impact. Uh and it, and it 00:21:21.809 --> 00:21:27.276 unlike most of the country where most of the West in reclamation projects 00:21:27.309 --> 00:21:32.897 where uh you have water customers here and you have power customers over 00:21:32.930 --> 00:21:37.887 on the other side, they aren't the same people and there is constant 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:43.006 tension between them over who's paying for what and who's getting what. 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:51.039 And uh and uh it's just the nature of the beast. So, but uh power P bills 00:21:54.239 --> 00:22:00.627 on these projects, 95% of the bills of the Colorado Restorage project are 00:22:00.660 --> 00:22:08.496 paid by hydropower sales. And so it's a 00:22:08.529 --> 00:22:12.436 something most people, 00:22:12.469 --> 00:22:16.065 especially if they're water or environmental people don't want to talk 00:22:16.098 --> 00:22:24.098 about, but it is a cruel reality that you have to keep an eye on what the 00:22:25.910 --> 00:22:29.906 hydropower costs and 00:22:29.939 --> 00:22:37.939 uh who's, you know, are there people willing to still buy it? Uh And, and 00:22:40.568 --> 00:22:46.496 the interesting thing about that is that, that fracking has changed the 00:22:46.529 --> 00:22:52.726 whole dynamic of power business. NA O Generating station is not closing 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:58.256 for environmental reasons. It's closed, it's already closed. Uh because it 00:22:58.289 --> 00:23:03.295 was no longer economical, it was cheaper to buy power at the Palaverde hub 00:23:03.328 --> 00:23:11.328 west of Phoenix than it was to run the plant. And uh other forces like 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:15.416 that, gradually 00:23:15.449 --> 00:23:22.406 wind and commercial wind and commercial solar, uh not rooftop solar um are 00:23:22.439 --> 00:23:30.439 getting cheaper and competing with other resources in terms of price. 00:23:31.309 --> 00:23:35.746 Their problem is that you can't schedule them. They either happen because 00:23:35.779 --> 00:23:43.779 the sun is shining or the wind is blowing or they don't. Uh And uh I 00:23:44.170 --> 00:23:49.857 remember driving to church one Sunday and a cloud came over the sky and I 00:23:49.890 --> 00:23:57.890 said to Anne, my wife, a PS and SRP are ramping up. Then the cloud went 00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:03.065 away and the sun came out again and I said, now they're ramping down and 00:24:03.098 --> 00:24:05.456 then, you know, and it went back and forth like that. So we got in the 00:24:05.489 --> 00:24:12.916 parking lot. But it was true. The, the every time that cloud went between 00:24:12.949 --> 00:24:18.295 the sun and the earth, the utilities had to change what they were doing. 00:24:18.328 --> 00:24:22.147 They, because the electricity 00:24:22.180 --> 00:24:30.180 that would have otherwise been generated by the, the solar arrays quit. Uh 00:24:30.358 --> 00:24:38.358 So the complexities of what we do in the power business now are, are 00:24:39.009 --> 00:24:44.006 monumental compared to what they were 20 years ago. And sort of, you know 00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:49.486 , but when we were talking about Glen Canyon Dam criteria 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:53.236 uh and stuff like that and what it meant and what it would do to your 00:24:53.269 --> 00:24:58.756 power portfolio and this that and the other thing, you know, we're in a 00:24:58.789 --> 00:25:03.325 different world. Yeah, I imagine you've seen a lot of changes over time 00:25:03.358 --> 00:25:07.676 over the last uh three decades or so since the Adaptive Management Program 00:25:07.709 --> 00:25:12.877 began. Can you think back and reflect a little bit on what kinds of 00:25:12.910 --> 00:25:17.357 relationships between the stakeholders, the interest groups? There were in 00:25:17.390 --> 00:25:24.795 the early years, um who was, you know, in conflict with who over what and 00:25:24.828 --> 00:25:32.828 how maybe that evolved over time as things began to change. Well, 00:25:33.289 --> 00:25:39.026 the uh the river is driven by water, 00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:47.059 the river is driven by the 1922 compact, the A Probation compact, 00:25:47.229 --> 00:25:50.357 Arizona V California, 00:25:50.390 --> 00:25:58.390 uh and other stuff. Collectively, the law of the river. Uh the 1930 00:26:05.699 --> 00:26:13.075 B. Can your project regulations, the uh long-range operating criteria. Now 00:26:13.108 --> 00:26:20.526 the shortage criteria, the interim shortage criteria, all of this stuff uh 00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:28.559 and some other lawsuits, you know, but it's a huge collection of stuff and 00:26:28.868 --> 00:26:31.676 power 00:26:31.709 --> 00:26:35.016 to most people is incidental 00:26:35.049 --> 00:26:41.717 to all the rest of this. And they keep saying yes, this law says in power 00:26:41.750 --> 00:26:48.897 generation incidental there too, but the incidental there too is the 00:26:48.930 --> 00:26:56.930 checkbook and everybody has always been able to assume that the power was 00:26:57.078 --> 00:27:04.617 cheaper than everything. It wasn't actually uh um when the commissioner of 00:27:04.650 --> 00:27:09.026 reclamation testified in Congress about building a Colorado storage 00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:14.516 project. He could, he said I can sell this parrot six mills for 50 years 00:27:14.549 --> 00:27:19.117 and build everything that's in here, the main stem reservoirs, the 00:27:19.150 --> 00:27:22.756 satellite projects, everything. 00:27:22.789 --> 00:27:29.936 Well, CoFire statements, 4.5 million. So that's a, that's a very big 00:27:29.969 --> 00:27:34.406 difference. You know, it doesn't sound like much when you're talking about 00:27:34.439 --> 00:27:40.627 mills, you know, percentages of a penny. But when you multiply it by 00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:46.085 what's being generated, you're talking, 00:27:46.118 --> 00:27:54.118 today's price is 250 million a year. Um, and 70% of that from Glen Canyon 00:27:55.529 --> 00:28:01.897 Dam for this particular project. Um So that, you know, the the multiplier 00:28:01.930 --> 00:28:08.916 effect is huge as long as everybody's buying the power. And in over 00:28:08.949 --> 00:28:11.656 decades, 00:28:11.689 --> 00:28:15.835 uh it was just automatically assumed that the cheapest buyer you could 00:28:15.868 --> 00:28:23.766 possibly get uh was federal hydro power because that six mils being more 00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:29.147 than 4.5 mils for coal-fired steam didn't last very long. It wasn't, the 00:28:29.180 --> 00:28:33.857 six mils changed, the 4.5 mils changed dramatically. And so all of a 00:28:33.890 --> 00:28:40.065 sudden uh all the Cider power, the, the stuff that was already there. 00:28:40.098 --> 00:28:46.516 Hoover and Davis and Parker Parker Davis project look better and better 00:28:46.549 --> 00:28:51.127 and better. And uh 00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:56.795 and the Colorado of storage project power got into a position where it 00:28:56.828 --> 00:29:04.828 looked better and better and better. Uh Interestingly enough of those, th 00:29:05.420 --> 00:29:12.186 those are the three major hydropower generating uh projects on the river. 00:29:12.219 --> 00:29:17.276 And among them only Parker Davis is 00:29:17.309 --> 00:29:20.035 below market 00:29:20.068 --> 00:29:25.137 crisp and Hoover are above market. You can buy power cheaper P Verde gov 00:29:25.170 --> 00:29:29.107 than you can buy it from the government 00:29:29.140 --> 00:29:36.226 from Hoover Dam or Glen Canyon and the other dams north of there. But 00:29:36.259 --> 00:29:42.246 people do it to the extent it provides operational flexibility. 00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:50.279 Uh Way back when this decision making process was getting started, 00:29:52.309 --> 00:29:58.835 we had a group of us in the control center for the Canyon dam with the 00:29:58.868 --> 00:30:06.717 congressman who this was 1993 was the ranking member of the House Energy 00:30:06.750 --> 00:30:11.706 Water Development subcomittee that, that appropriates the money for 00:30:11.739 --> 00:30:16.217 reclamation. And whoa. 00:30:16.250 --> 00:30:20.285 And then after the 94 election, he became the sub-committee chairman uh 00:30:20.318 --> 00:30:23.016 with the switch 00:30:23.049 --> 00:30:29.347 and it's down in the middle of the dam. And 00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:36.795 uh right in the middle of the room when the the reclamation was in charge 00:30:36.828 --> 00:30:42.696 of the facility, was there explaining things to him and that sort of thing. 00:30:42.729 --> 00:30:48.906 And there's a bank of, of generators on the side, generator controls on 00:30:48.939 --> 00:30:56.939 the side. And in the middle of the room there is, oh jeez, I'm sorry, 00:30:58.400 --> 00:31:03.967 resuming recording well. So we were in the control room and in the middle 00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:08.397 of the control room is a desk and on the desk is a red phone and there is 00:31:08.430 --> 00:31:15.416 a young man sitting behind the desk and the dam manager is explaining 00:31:15.449 --> 00:31:20.785 everything to this congressman and the phone rings 00:31:20.818 --> 00:31:26.217 and the young man picks it up and he listens and he puts it down and he 00:31:26.250 --> 00:31:30.397 walks over to the wall and he starts punching a button on one of the units 00:31:30.430 --> 00:31:36.555 bringing it off spinning reserve and a coal-fired unit in Northwestern 00:31:36.588 --> 00:31:41.867 Colorado had tripped off for some reason and the entire system in the 00:31:41.900 --> 00:31:46.986 Colorado River Basin was out of balance. And in the time it takes to tell 00:31:47.019 --> 00:31:54.936 this story, he had rebalanced the entire system. Oh, that's 00:31:54.969 --> 00:32:02.276 incident hydropower to everything else. Thank you. But if he hadn't been 00:32:02.309 --> 00:32:07.406 able to do that, the system would have burned down electricity generates 00:32:07.439 --> 00:32:14.976 heat. That's why there are insulators. That's why there are are uh uh 00:32:15.009 --> 00:32:22.867 circuit breakers uh like the one that maybe fall there in my hot tub. Um 00:32:22.900 --> 00:32:28.117 And I never had to explain to the congressman again what the value of Glen 00:32:28.150 --> 00:32:36.150 Canyon Dam and hydro power was because it is uh it's not a black start 00:32:36.588 --> 00:32:44.588 facility. Uh That, that Hoover is, it can fill in and go from nothing to 00:32:44.838 --> 00:32:51.526 jump into the middle of a problem. But uh 00:32:51.559 --> 00:32:59.559 it uh it, it plays an enormously big role in helping regulate 00:33:01.689 --> 00:33:08.006 electricity fluctuations in this whole interconnected system because it's 00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:15.967 of its size. And uh and so while the hydropower is quote, incidental, 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:23.686 close quote to water and whatever, um 00:33:23.719 --> 00:33:31.535 it's not incidental. If your lights go up uh 00:33:31.568 --> 00:33:38.315 in the summer of 2001 before 911, 00:33:38.348 --> 00:33:46.348 it was very hot and some power lines in Eastern Idaho overloaded as they 00:33:46.979 --> 00:33:51.877 do. And when they do, they sag and because of 00:33:51.910 --> 00:33:56.516 all these issues with regard to deregulation and everything, one of the 00:33:56.549 --> 00:34:03.075 things that a lot of utilities cut back on was tree training. And so these 00:34:03.108 --> 00:34:11.108 wires sagged into a cottonwood tree arced and that pulse went to Boise and 00:34:11.309 --> 00:34:16.914 the guys of Boise Idaho couldn't react and it went into the vulnerable 00:34:16.947 --> 00:34:23.195 power administration system where there are no checks down the Colorado 00:34:23.228 --> 00:34:30.086 Oregon transmission project line to northern California down to L A over 00:34:30.119 --> 00:34:34.115 here. By the time I got here, 00:34:34.148 --> 00:34:36.827 uh 00:34:36.860 --> 00:34:39.787 the uh uh 00:34:39.820 --> 00:34:46.566 bureau had ramped Glen Canyon Dam in our lights. We get so project powers 00:34:46.599 --> 00:34:53.247 , we get power from black you down. Our lights stayed on, go to the other 00:34:53.280 --> 00:35:00.086 side of seventh A, their lights went out. It's a PS. Um Two weeks later, 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:06.445 same thing happened, but the S A was on the cotp going from Grand coolly 00:35:06.478 --> 00:35:09.307 down in Northern California. 00:35:09.340 --> 00:35:14.206 At that point, Glen Ken was 00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:19.345 100% because they were rolling blackouts in California and there was no 00:35:19.378 --> 00:35:24.936 other, there's no other power. And so our lights went out as well because 00:35:24.969 --> 00:35:31.756 there was nothing to throw at the problem. But people don't understand, 00:35:31.789 --> 00:35:35.066 you know that from British Columbia to Northern New Mexico, this is all 00:35:35.099 --> 00:35:37.126 connected 00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:43.135 and, and the problems, for instance, they're having in California now 00:35:43.168 --> 00:35:51.168 really uh can have an impact on us. Uh And 00:35:52.579 --> 00:35:59.017 while California turns its nose up at resources outside the state, it 00:35:59.050 --> 00:36:05.135 doesn't when the lights go out and they're gonna go out again this summer. 00:36:05.168 --> 00:36:13.168 Uh So we're in a, as you say, we're in a different world and, and not one 00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:22.115 I would have chosen, but uh one I think that bears for the reflection on 00:36:22.148 --> 00:36:26.287 how people view the hydropower 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:32.807 uh generated a Glen Canyon dam. It has been the whipping boy during this 00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:39.106 entire process. You know, it's bad. The dam is bad, the hydropower is bad. 00:36:39.139 --> 00:36:42.626 Uh And 00:36:42.659 --> 00:36:50.456 uh and I have waited a very long time for some 00:36:50.489 --> 00:36:58.489 precipitating cause that would force perhaps a recalculation of 00:37:00.010 --> 00:37:07.247 the, all the values of things. And oddly enough, I think this lawsuit by 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:15.280 the environmentalists may be that precipitating cause because it's, uh 00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:18.506 it's gonna examine 00:37:18.539 --> 00:37:22.925 what and what he's been doing 00:37:22.958 --> 00:37:28.526 and whether it's been doing it correctly and the environmentalists are 00:37:28.559 --> 00:37:34.905 saying, no, you haven't. This group of environmentalists, I 00:37:34.938 --> 00:37:39.577 would love to see a poll among environmental groups as to which of them, 00:37:39.610 --> 00:37:45.666 which of them like this idea of this lawsuit, which of them don't, the 00:37:45.699 --> 00:37:49.365 more sophisticated ones I think probably don't like it at all because it's 00:37:49.398 --> 00:37:54.077 , as I said, it's taking decision making away from the executive branch 00:37:54.110 --> 00:38:01.046 and putting it in the judicial branch, but we'll see where it goes. In the 00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:06.615 meantime, you gotta keep the lights on. 00:38:06.648 --> 00:38:10.217 What do you think um, in the years that you've been involved, do you think 00:38:10.250 --> 00:38:16.095 you've been able to accomplish anything in particular in terms of keeping 00:38:16.128 --> 00:38:21.086 the importance of hydro power on the table? Maybe making so having some 00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:26.006 influence on decisions that are made about, you know, operation of the dam. 00:38:26.039 --> 00:38:28.247 Oh, 00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:36.280 so uh the, when this all really got rolling, uh a professor from a su and 00:38:39.728 --> 00:38:47.728 a couple of people took some readings from 40 L that's a beach. Uh and 00:38:47.989 --> 00:38:55.686 said the sky is falling. We gotta have emergency criteria and interior 00:38:55.719 --> 00:38:59.925 went along with it and I yelled and screamed and whatnot. And then we got 00:38:59.958 --> 00:39:05.517 to the 97 criteria and some of the more onerous things of those emergency 00:39:05.550 --> 00:39:10.816 criteria, things went away. I think, I like to think in part because they 00:39:10.849 --> 00:39:14.057 thought I was gonna sue him. And, 00:39:14.090 --> 00:39:18.776 you know, as I said before, you know, I mean, could you be more specific 00:39:18.809 --> 00:39:25.486 about what was in the emergency criteria that you thought was not a good 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:31.776 idea and how, that the restrictions I'm glad were, were, were tighter, 00:39:31.809 --> 00:39:37.717 more severe than what we ended up with in the 97 criteria. And the problem 00:39:37.750 --> 00:39:42.486 with the 97 criteria, for instance, that the, uh, the, one of their, their 00:39:42.519 --> 00:39:50.519 five controls, there's uh, uh, a minimum or maximum up ramp, down ramp and 00:39:53.719 --> 00:40:00.267 daily change. All right, there's no scientific evidence for what they have 00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:06.896 in the way of an up criteria. The problem is that when they looked 00:40:06.929 --> 00:40:10.267 themselves in the face and said, 00:40:10.300 --> 00:40:18.300 what do we do with this? Uh, it was not 14,000 and the more nuanced 00:40:18.978 --> 00:40:26.287 version of that concept in the new decision making. But they had to come 00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:31.787 up with something they couldn't bear politically saying, well, the five 00:40:31.820 --> 00:40:35.956 criteria, we don't really need this one. And as a practical matter, what 00:40:35.989 --> 00:40:41.006 they did was set the criteria, the criterion for up ramping or criteria 00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:45.026 under different water flows, for criteria for up ramping. So that it 00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:52.345 didn't make any difference. If the daily change is 6000 to 8000, then the 00:40:52.378 --> 00:40:57.086 ramping up ramping doesn't make any difference because you eat it in an 00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:05.119 hour or two and that's not load following. And uh uh so it, it, it really 00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:12.595 doesn't mean anything but time. I'm, I don't know if I live long enough, 00:41:12.628 --> 00:41:17.747 but uh I want to live to the point where people begin to think that maybe 00:41:17.780 --> 00:41:22.615 there's a win, win situation in this, you know, they do these artificial 00:41:22.648 --> 00:41:24.916 floods, 00:41:24.949 --> 00:41:30.017 they don't do anything. I mean, I've been there, I've been on the river, 00:41:30.050 --> 00:41:35.425 I've had been on the river seven times starting in the seventies. I was on 00:41:35.458 --> 00:41:39.546 the river on a private trip in 2000 when they flattened the river. And I 00:41:39.579 --> 00:41:47.579 was in the um and uh in 2008 when they started the experimental flows, the 00:41:48.110 --> 00:41:54.695 floods which of course deeply incised the edges of the beaches so that you 00:41:54.728 --> 00:42:00.206 could hardly get onto them until it, it eroded. And every time they do one 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:06.717 of those floods, the sand goes back in the river in about six months, 00:42:06.750 --> 00:42:14.750 almost all because the flood can only put the sand up high enough 00:42:16.059 --> 00:42:21.666 to where the water is. And therefore, 00:42:21.699 --> 00:42:28.807 as the water withdraws and it dries out. But there is subs uh subsurface 00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:35.756 erosion. It loses its support and it falls back into the river. And so it 00:42:35.789 --> 00:42:42.017 really is, it's not beach building. Uh There are 100 and 10 camping 00:42:42.050 --> 00:42:47.376 beaches between Glen Canyon Dam and Lake Mead. Virtually all of them in 00:42:47.409 --> 00:42:53.436 the lower river are as big or bigger than they were before Glen Canyon Dam 00:42:53.469 --> 00:43:01.469 was built. Uh There's a park service, photographic study that uh uh was 00:43:02.500 --> 00:43:10.500 done to mimic one that was uh p did uh under contract to try to map a 00:43:11.750 --> 00:43:19.115 railroad to the river along the river and they did it on the each spot was 00:43:19.148 --> 00:43:25.267 the very same day, very time, same time of day and everything and the, 00:43:25.300 --> 00:43:33.300 the amount of area of the river that is exactly the same is striking and 00:43:34.438 --> 00:43:38.006 nobody wants to talk about it. The park service in Tucson has this 00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:46.039 photographic study comparison 100 years to the day of each of those two. 00:43:46.369 --> 00:43:54.369 And the real problem is Marble Canyon. It's, 00:43:55.148 --> 00:43:57.345 yeah. 00:43:57.378 --> 00:44:04.247 Um maybe 75% narrow uh configuration. 00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:12.280 It's configured to channel the normal westerly flow of winds. I know I've 00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:20.106 gotten a nasty sunburn from sand blowing in my face in Marble Canyon and 00:44:20.139 --> 00:44:28.139 lost a nice hat that said cords on it. To the river and my pillow because 00:44:28.378 --> 00:44:34.517 it, you know, it, it, that wind can get pretty fierce in that narrow. But 00:44:34.550 --> 00:44:39.557 even out of the old criteria, 31 and 31,503 00:44:39.590 --> 00:44:45.095 in the summer and one in the winter before the 97 criteria 00:44:45.128 --> 00:44:51.066 in the narrowest reach of, of Marble Canyon, the change in water level was 00:44:51.099 --> 00:44:59.099 10 ft. That's all. And you can tell and you can tell pre damn, uh, there'd 00:45:00.349 --> 00:45:08.349 be scouring floods up to 300,000 cfs and some at 100. And you can go down 00:45:08.478 --> 00:45:13.376 there and you can see the striations of vegetation where those lines are 00:45:13.409 --> 00:45:20.345 and, uh, you'll see trees above 300,000, you'll see some shrubs down and 00:45:20.378 --> 00:45:27.195 then you'll go down below. But, uh, and you get down into where we are now 00:45:27.228 --> 00:45:32.747 and the maximum fluctuation is 3 ft instead of 10 ft and then from 3 to 10 00:45:32.780 --> 00:45:40.655 , there are grasses and, uh, uh, salt cedar, uh, until the bugs get them. 00:45:40.688 --> 00:45:45.876 Uh, and, uh, uh, 00:45:45.909 --> 00:45:49.747 and that's where the problem is that the real problem? And it's an 00:45:49.780 --> 00:45:57.780 engineering problem, uh, in my view, instead of trying to, you know, 00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:05.057 Einstein's definition of insanity was repeating the same thing over and 00:46:05.090 --> 00:46:09.135 over again and expecting a different result. Well, they've been doing this 00:46:09.168 --> 00:46:15.077 , you know, these artificial floods, expecting a different result. The 00:46:15.110 --> 00:46:20.486 ones they do in the spring excite the rainbow trout. They reproduce more 00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:27.896 they then outcompete or they compete with and eat a back job. Uh, I mean, 00:46:27.929 --> 00:46:33.456 the, the, the studies are there, they've been done it. It's the fatal flaw 00:46:33.489 --> 00:46:41.489 of the spring. HFE, the Fhfes screw other things up. Uh, and you, you 00:46:44.628 --> 00:46:49.445 could go down there with some civil engineers and a survey crew. I used to 00:46:49.478 --> 00:46:57.276 work on a survey crew in high school where the transit in a level and 00:46:57.309 --> 00:47:01.615 stake out the 40,000 CFS line. 00:47:01.648 --> 00:47:07.175 The Bureau of Reclamation's got dredges on the lower Colorado river. They 00:47:07.208 --> 00:47:13.997 go through the National Wildlife rages blowing sand out of the river at 00:47:14.030 --> 00:47:20.095 the request of the fish and wildlife service to keep the channels open. Uh 00:47:20.128 --> 00:47:26.296 And it works and you can break them down, put them on trucks, drive them 00:47:26.329 --> 00:47:33.425 through the tunnel, uh Put them on pontoon boats, reassemble them. You're 00:47:33.458 --> 00:47:41.458 down to where you need to purchase sand when the sand is accumulated and 00:47:43.378 --> 00:47:51.378 put it together again. You put the, the son are bell in the water and give 00:47:52.599 --> 00:47:59.327 it a beep and scare the fish away. You shoot the sand up to the grade 00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:04.247 stakes. Um 00:48:04.280 --> 00:48:11.486 The, you know, you break everything down, pull the shutter belt out, go up 00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:17.557 , pick up great steaks, float down the river. And the only people who know 00:48:17.590 --> 00:48:22.195 that you were even there are the river runners and you'll have a beach 00:48:22.228 --> 00:48:25.557 that will be there 100 years, 00:48:25.590 --> 00:48:28.787 which is, you know, I mean that that's fine. What you're doing is 00:48:28.820 --> 00:48:36.595 promoting a, a business, commercial river running. And, uh, uh, uh, I mean 00:48:36.628 --> 00:48:42.166 , the, the small group of people who do private trips 00:48:42.199 --> 00:48:46.836 get along with whatever there is but the co, you have to have a comfort 00:48:46.869 --> 00:48:54.385 zone for commercial overrun and you have to have beaches that are nice and 00:48:54.418 --> 00:49:00.635 you can do that and it wouldn't do anything for the backwaters. But our 00:49:00.668 --> 00:49:04.006 back job don't use the backwaters anyway. And besides, they freeze over in 00:49:04.039 --> 00:49:07.986 the fall. And when they're not frozen over the water, birds eat the fish 00:49:08.019 --> 00:49:14.916 that are there because it's shallow. I mean, this stuff is in the record. 00:49:14.949 --> 00:49:22.949 Uh Can you explain briefly um why hydropower interests are 00:49:25.510 --> 00:49:31.287 not enamored with the idea of the high flow events? Why, why would you not 00:49:31.320 --> 00:49:36.586 want the high flow events to continue? Is that because the water doesn't 00:49:36.619 --> 00:49:41.405 go through the turbine and generate electricity when there's an HFE? Ok. 00:49:41.438 --> 00:49:48.146 It costs them money. It cost their customers money. And 00:49:48.179 --> 00:49:52.717 if they work, that would be one thing. But when the sand falls back in the 00:49:52.750 --> 00:49:56.517 river and the other aspect of it is it does fall back in the river, then 00:49:56.550 --> 00:50:00.655 they do another one. Guess where that sand goes. It goes to the Lake Mead 00:50:00.688 --> 00:50:05.195 before they started. This is a little bit of sand up at the head of Lake 00:50:05.228 --> 00:50:09.186 Mead. Now there's a huge 00:50:09.219 --> 00:50:17.219 sandbar up there quixotically full of salt, cedar and Southwester will 00:50:20.469 --> 00:50:27.506 flycatcher, which isn't playing the game fairly and his nesting in salt 00:50:27.539 --> 00:50:35.539 cedar, uh which is not the script it's supposed to follow. And, and so you 00:50:36.510 --> 00:50:44.106 have this, this tension now over uh the whole thing, but the, this that 00:50:44.139 --> 00:50:52.139 great big sandbar didn't exist before. We're pulsing sand down toward Lake 00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:59.557 Mead. We're shortening the life of Lake Mead, its ability to store water 00:50:59.590 --> 00:51:06.396 without being dredged, which is wow. And then dredging a reservoir is an 00:51:06.429 --> 00:51:11.557 environmental nightmare because of heavy metals and everything else that 00:51:11.590 --> 00:51:18.586 settles in the bottom of reservoirs. It's the nature of the beast. And uh 00:51:18.619 --> 00:51:22.017 and you can't very well sluice that stuff downstream without sluicing all 00:51:22.050 --> 00:51:30.050 of those uh uh polus downstream. Uh And uh so uh to me, uh we, we, we 00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:42.635 could get a win, win out of this, that's there. 00:51:42.668 --> 00:51:50.668 But it would, it would need for people to alter and mindset and we've had 00:51:51.369 --> 00:51:56.606 this mindset go through what, how many generations, I mean, think of the 00:51:56.639 --> 00:52:00.787 people who started working on this in the Glen Cannon environmental 00:52:00.820 --> 00:52:03.456 studies. 00:52:03.489 --> 00:52:07.135 And 00:52:07.168 --> 00:52:15.168 that's what, 4050 years, 29 years ago, 1992 all the environmental studies 00:52:16.010 --> 00:52:20.327 began in the early 19 eighties and discussions about the problems 00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:24.767 associated with the d even before that. Yeah. So, I mean, really, you're 00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:30.856 talking about three decades. So you get people who have uh literally 00:52:30.889 --> 00:52:33.606 graduated college, 00:52:33.639 --> 00:52:37.135 had a career and a retired. 00:52:37.168 --> 00:52:39.497 Uh 00:52:39.530 --> 00:52:46.776 And you have young people coming along and I find myself dealing with 00:52:46.809 --> 00:52:54.809 people's grandchildren. Uh, and I start saying, well, you know, in 1970 00:52:55.449 --> 00:53:03.449 and they look at me, uh, or, or, or not even that far back. But, but, uh, 00:53:04.239 --> 00:53:08.526 uh, what's the change of mind frame that you said is needed in order to 00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:16.559 get a win, win situation? People have to accept the fact that you have to 00:53:17.010 --> 00:53:20.936 do something mechanical 00:53:20.969 --> 00:53:25.345 in the Grand Canyon. Now, 00:53:25.378 --> 00:53:28.925 that's two lives 00:53:28.958 --> 00:53:33.227 coupled together. First of all, you don't need to do it in the Grand 00:53:33.260 --> 00:53:38.537 Canyon, you do it in Marble Canyon. And second, this isn't the only 00:53:38.570 --> 00:53:43.776 mechanical thing that's done. Uh 00:53:43.809 --> 00:53:46.666 In spite of what people from primarily the park service and the 00:53:46.699 --> 00:53:53.236 environmental community will say, uh in the quote Grand Canyon, the 00:53:53.269 --> 00:54:00.206 general term usually used for everything from Glen Canyon Dam to Lake Mead. 00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:07.267 Um If I mean, they put helicopters down there when they need to both for 00:54:07.300 --> 00:54:15.300 rescue and for whatever other t they do, uh uh a kind of harvesting of 00:54:17.789 --> 00:54:22.666 exotic fish. Um 00:54:22.699 --> 00:54:30.699 They, uh there is a mound of sand at the toe of Glen Canyon Dam which is 00:54:30.869 --> 00:54:36.037 causing back pressure on its operation 00:54:36.070 --> 00:54:41.006 and they are actively considering having to dredge 00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:45.717 that out of there, which means they'd have to get one of those dredges. 00:54:45.750 --> 00:54:49.905 I'm talking about that. The bureau has break it down, put it on the trucks 00:54:49.938 --> 00:54:57.756 , take it through the tunnel, put it on. Um uh, you know, uh, uh, 00:54:57.789 --> 00:55:04.256 reassemble it or put it on now, they probably have to put it on the, on 00:55:04.289 --> 00:55:09.356 the, on the boats and then re, and drive up a little bit to reassemble it 00:55:09.389 --> 00:55:17.389 and then use it to, to try to sluice that, that sand mounted away. I've 00:55:19.300 --> 00:55:27.300 been there. I fished it. Uh, and it's a, it's a significant operational 00:55:27.530 --> 00:55:32.236 issue. Uh, it's mechanical. 00:55:32.269 --> 00:55:39.115 The stuff they do about exotic fish is mechanical. Uh, 00:55:39.148 --> 00:55:46.227 we could do the sand preservation for commercial 00:55:46.260 --> 00:55:50.896 river running in Marble Canyon where it's the only place where it would 00:55:50.929 --> 00:55:54.416 really be helpful. 00:55:54.449 --> 00:56:01.635 One trip, we get that sand perched above a 40,000 CFS line, which should 00:56:01.668 --> 00:56:09.668 be in the very narrowest part of the canyon. 10 ft 00:56:10.889 --> 00:56:16.675 float everything down the river, come back in 100 years. 00:56:16.708 --> 00:56:20.436 The, the only thing you could be fixing at that point is wind erosion and 00:56:20.469 --> 00:56:28.469 , uh, uh, and it would work but people go nuts when you say things like 00:56:29.119 --> 00:56:33.486 that to them because it's the Grand Canyon. It's a wilderness. Well, it's 00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:36.365 not a wilderness. 00:56:36.398 --> 00:56:38.385 Um, 00:56:38.418 --> 00:56:44.436 and yet if you did that, you wouldn't have to do the artificial floods. 00:56:44.469 --> 00:56:49.365 They, you wouldn't be worried about their adverse impacts on the 00:56:49.398 --> 00:56:55.967 endangered Humpback chub. And then you, uh, 00:56:56.000 --> 00:57:00.865 I don't know about bug flows in the fall. Uh, that's a new recent 00:57:00.898 --> 00:57:07.467 phenomenon. Uh, you know, they plant rainbow trout from time to time. You 00:57:07.500 --> 00:57:11.896 know, the ferry fishery I don't know why they can't plant bugs instead of 00:57:11.929 --> 00:57:19.929 flattening the river on the weekends. Uh, it's not as economically 00:57:20.539 --> 00:57:25.186 consequential as doing things during the week, but it is more 00:57:25.219 --> 00:57:30.615 consequential in the summer when in pair is needed. But, and, and it 00:57:30.648 --> 00:57:33.856 seemed to me that if you can raise fish and put them in the river, you can 00:57:33.889 --> 00:57:38.267 raise bugs and put them in the river and it's awful lot cheaper than not 00:57:38.300 --> 00:57:43.486 generating electricity. But, but you gotta have the mindset to say, let's 00:57:43.519 --> 00:57:48.905 let's think outside the box. Let's see. Can we have our cake and eat it 00:57:48.938 --> 00:57:55.827 too? Can we take this hydropower resource back toward what it was designed 00:57:55.860 --> 00:58:03.860 to be because of the benefits that can generate for just this load 00:58:04.699 --> 00:58:10.195 following for supporting wind and solar, getting people off of carbon 00:58:10.228 --> 00:58:12.227 resources. 00:58:12.260 --> 00:58:20.135 Can can, can we think about this hydropower facility is very important to 00:58:20.168 --> 00:58:24.186 other policy issues that have now arisen and people are beginning to 00:58:24.219 --> 00:58:32.219 coalesce around that, that we need to have a more carbon free environment. 00:58:32.550 --> 00:58:36.767 And there is a role for hydropower to play in that existing hydropower 00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:41.885 primarily because most of the big dams that will ever be built in western 00:58:41.918 --> 00:58:47.206 United States have been built. Uh And that's just the way, that's the way 00:58:47.239 --> 00:58:50.756 life is uh 00:58:50.789 --> 00:58:56.175 in part because you know, there aren't that many more dam sites worth 00:58:56.208 --> 00:58:58.666 considering. 00:58:58.699 --> 00:59:04.095 But until people think, you know, 00:59:04.128 --> 00:59:12.128 improving hydro Peric Glen Canyon dam is worth trying. Can we marry 00:59:14.030 --> 00:59:18.865 mitigating downstream impacts and innovation 00:59:18.898 --> 00:59:25.206 with that and see if we can make it work, can we? I don't know, I, I mean 00:59:25.239 --> 00:59:33.239 , I think you can, I think there are, are, are available solutions. I, I 00:59:33.780 --> 00:59:38.925 don't think it's rocket science. I think their current applications of 00:59:38.958 --> 00:59:46.958 engineering and in, in biology that can be applied. I think that power 00:59:47.628 --> 00:59:53.436 customers, for instance, uh 00:59:53.469 --> 01:00:01.469 who, who fund, which fund so much of this if they were not losing $5 01:00:02.668 --> 01:00:10.668 million a day. And Hyder Barlo, I'd be very happy to spend $500,000 bugs. 01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:17.497 You know, I, I mean, it's economics. Uh but I, but you have to have the 01:00:17.530 --> 01:00:25.530 mindset that looks at the whole picture and says g is there a way we can 01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:31.497 do this for everybody? It's the way, you know, instead of fighting with 01:00:31.530 --> 01:00:38.086 each other instead of bad mouthing each other. Is, is there a path forward 01:00:38.119 --> 01:00:46.119 on this, that, that where everybody went? Uh And, and 01:00:48.648 --> 01:00:55.175 yeah, I don't know if that's possible. Yeah. Well, that's, that is exactly 01:00:55.208 --> 01:00:58.675 the purpose of uh adaptive management program. It's kind of an 01:00:58.708 --> 01:01:03.756 experimental effort to bring all the stakeholders together to see if you 01:01:03.789 --> 01:01:09.195 can find collaboratively agree on, on as many win wins as possible. It's 01:01:09.228 --> 01:01:14.675 experimental and it's an alternative, the normal way of making decisions. 01:01:14.708 --> 01:01:18.986 I wonder. And, you know, we can kind of wrap up this interview with this, 01:01:19.019 --> 01:01:25.756 I wonder Um If you think that adaptive management as an alternative way of 01:01:25.789 --> 01:01:31.655 making decisions about resources is kind of a successful experiment or 01:01:31.688 --> 01:01:36.486 more of a muddle that hasn't really accomplished what it sought out to 01:01:36.519 --> 01:01:39.537 accomplish. What are your feelings about adaptive management? And what 01:01:39.570 --> 01:01:43.606 particular, let me ask you this question, what does it accomplish? 01:01:43.639 --> 01:01:47.865 That's why I'm interviewing experts like you, uh some people think a lot 01:01:47.898 --> 01:01:52.236 has been accomplished, other people feel frustrated. I'm wondering what 01:01:52.269 --> 01:01:55.186 you feel about it. 01:01:55.219 --> 01:02:01.095 You know, democracy is messy, of course, and slow and frustrating 01:02:01.128 --> 01:02:06.416 sometimes better than everything else. Exactly. But, well, let's put it 01:02:06.449 --> 01:02:11.905 this way. Uh, under the old regime, we didn't have green sunfish, uh, 01:02:11.938 --> 01:02:16.595 under the old regime while the fish and wildlife service had wrote on the 01:02:16.628 --> 01:02:24.077 river and created the endangered fish problem, uh, 01:02:24.110 --> 01:02:30.876 and put brown trout, german, brown trout. They're from Germany because 01:02:30.909 --> 01:02:36.807 they are hard to catch. They fight like hell. Uh, and they mostly camped 01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:40.666 out in Bright Angel Creek and in the river right around there. Now they're 01:02:40.699 --> 01:02:46.537 migrating up and the people who make a living off the leaf fry fishery 01:02:46.570 --> 01:02:50.486 with the, uh, rainbows, 01:02:50.519 --> 01:02:57.416 uh, are very unhappy. Uh, I mean, just like they were when the, when the 01:02:57.449 --> 01:03:05.385 game fish department put cat loops, it's a type of rainbow trap 01:03:05.418 --> 01:03:10.666 strain in there and nobody could catch. And so they put Bel Airs in there 01:03:10.699 --> 01:03:17.267 and they're really stupid. And, uh, yeah, and a biologist friend of mine 01:03:17.300 --> 01:03:19.845 said that they should have put it in Rocky Mountain. It's a different 01:03:19.878 --> 01:03:24.986 strain. But the point is it's a fish that's native to the west slopes of 01:03:25.019 --> 01:03:32.517 the, uh, uh, Sierra Nevadas, Northern California and southern Oregon. And 01:03:32.550 --> 01:03:36.997 it's not native here. We have two native trout. Neither of them were in 01:03:37.030 --> 01:03:42.686 the Colorado River. It was a warm water river. They're in the, uh, uh, 01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:45.836 blew the San Francisco 01:03:45.869 --> 01:03:53.416 in the little Colorado, the Apache and the hela. Uh, and, uh, they're not 01:03:53.449 --> 01:04:01.449 very bright either. Uh, they're much easier to catch. But, uh, the, um, 01:04:04.019 --> 01:04:10.247 the, the, the problem is that, that we just 01:04:10.280 --> 01:04:13.736 look at this and say, all right. Now, now we've got, we've got Humpback 01:04:13.769 --> 01:04:20.425 chub populations in some of the side streets. The original target for 01:04:20.458 --> 01:04:25.135 delisting comeback job was 3000, 01:04:25.168 --> 01:04:32.497 uh, reproducing adults. We're at nine 01:04:32.530 --> 01:04:38.477 fish and Wildlife Service is struggling with itself over down listing. 01:04:38.510 --> 01:04:40.807 This population 01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:47.986 too threatened, not de listing down listing, uh, because 01:04:48.019 --> 01:04:54.945 it's the Grand Canyon. It's politics and the politics is, is interfering 01:04:54.978 --> 01:04:59.977 with. Well, it should have been a science call 01:05:00.010 --> 01:05:04.526 15 years ago. Um, 01:05:04.559 --> 01:05:09.017 and, and eventually maybe we'll get there. I don't know if this lawsuit is 01:05:09.050 --> 01:05:14.827 gonna screw that up or not. But, uh, 01:05:14.860 --> 01:05:22.767 we, uh, we have environmental problems. Now. We didn't have, I caught 01:05:22.800 --> 01:05:29.666 striped bass at the mouth of Havasu Creek on one of our trips with the 01:05:29.699 --> 01:05:37.699 Bureau of reclamation. As did a Bureau of reclamation guy. And Dave Wagner. 01:05:37.769 --> 01:05:45.486 What happened? Oh, I'm sorry, I unplugged it. But go ahead. Resuming 01:05:45.519 --> 01:05:50.845 recording. Well, you know, 01:05:50.878 --> 01:05:56.655 David, I work nemesis. Uh, 01:05:56.688 --> 01:06:03.526 and, uh, Nemesis, you said, yes, 01:06:03.559 --> 01:06:09.057 he had his own idea about how he was doing things and I wasn't 01:06:09.090 --> 01:06:13.747 particularly fond of the direction he was taking things. But, and there's 01:06:13.780 --> 01:06:19.146 , uh, you can come back for another four hours and we'll talk about my 01:06:19.179 --> 01:06:24.155 relationship with David, but I still see him from time to time and we 01:06:24.188 --> 01:06:29.606 commiserate. I used to see him when he went 01:06:29.639 --> 01:06:34.727 up on the hill in the minority staff for the Transportation subcomittee. 01:06:34.760 --> 01:06:40.477 And my daughter's or middle daughter who called was Chief counsel of the 01:06:40.510 --> 01:06:43.675 crime terrorism and Homeland Security subcomittee. And her office was 01:06:43.708 --> 01:06:48.666 right across the hall and then there was another sub-committee right next 01:06:48.699 --> 01:06:53.077 to her. So I could go into the basement of the red room building and get a 01:06:53.110 --> 01:07:00.626 three for uh uh but, um, uh, 01:07:00.659 --> 01:07:08.659 no. Um, to me, I mean, what David, let us, what we did is he made us clean 01:07:08.989 --> 01:07:14.747 the fish bag, the trails, put them on ice 01:07:14.780 --> 01:07:18.586 with a striped bass snack 01:07:18.619 --> 01:07:26.227 before dinner. Uh, and that stuff went back uh to have the scientist poke 01:07:26.260 --> 01:07:31.537 around and see what they were reading. But if those fish had portaged lava 01:07:31.570 --> 01:07:34.736 , 01:07:34.769 --> 01:07:42.769 I mean, think about it. Um, and, and striped bass are, and then abnormous 01:07:43.750 --> 01:07:46.365 fish 01:07:46.398 --> 01:07:48.666 uh 01:07:48.699 --> 01:07:56.699 native to the Atlantic Ocean and among other places, rivers uh that flow 01:07:57.119 --> 01:08:03.717 into the Atlantic Ocean from the United States and uh were brought to the 01:08:03.750 --> 01:08:11.750 West because they're great sports fish. 01:08:11.840 --> 01:08:17.817 I caught a £60.01 in San Francisco Bay when I was eight. Actually, it 01:08:17.850 --> 01:08:25.135 caught me and my father and the boat captain got a board and they had to 01:08:25.168 --> 01:08:29.717 whack the thing and kill it before we get a board for fear, it would bite 01:08:29.750 --> 01:08:35.226 somebody's leg off and then 01:08:35.259 --> 01:08:40.246 to get back to officers quarters. Uh My father was briefly stationed in 01:08:40.279 --> 01:08:44.527 the initial arsenal. Um, 01:08:44.560 --> 01:08:49.357 took great big chunks of the filet, threw it in the bathtub, poured ice 01:08:49.390 --> 01:08:53.326 over, it, took the head, put it out the empty lot next door that had a 01:08:53.359 --> 01:08:57.916 post on it. The bees took care of that. They went around trying to give 01:08:57.949 --> 01:09:04.675 fish away but strike bass are a wonderful fighting fish and wonderful 01:09:04.708 --> 01:09:09.526 sports fish and wonderful eating fish. 01:09:09.559 --> 01:09:14.885 But they are the freshwater sharks of the United States and they're in 01:09:14.918 --> 01:09:20.987 Lake Mead and they're in Lake Powell for that very reason. And if you 01:09:21.020 --> 01:09:24.156 create a climate 01:09:24.189 --> 01:09:29.776 uh between Blake Canyon Dam and Lake Mead for them, there won't be any 01:09:29.809 --> 01:09:35.755 more her picture or rainbow trap or even Brown trap because they will 01:09:35.788 --> 01:09:39.014 dominate everything. It's, they're like golden, the golden eagles. I mean 01:09:39.047 --> 01:09:45.406 , everybody says, oh, the bald eagle, bald eagle. Uh The only reason of 01:09:45.439 --> 01:09:49.925 the golden eagle is not the symbol of the United States is, it was the 01:09:49.958 --> 01:09:56.406 symbol of Germany before then when they were trying to decide. But I, the 01:09:56.439 --> 01:10:02.397 , the golden eagle dominates the vault and I have a net whet creek seat 01:10:02.430 --> 01:10:05.055 which is, 01:10:05.088 --> 01:10:10.796 oh, middle Granite Gorge coming in from the north side and it's a spawning 01:10:10.829 --> 01:10:17.515 area for rainbow trout. And I have seen bald eagles sitting standing 01:10:17.548 --> 01:10:21.076 alongside the creek fishing 01:10:21.109 --> 01:10:26.456 and the golden eagle come down in the bald eagle sleeve. 01:10:26.489 --> 01:10:29.687 And of course, 01:10:29.720 --> 01:10:35.925 the Grand Canyon was never natural habitat for eagles of any kind, uh, 01:10:35.958 --> 01:10:43.958 until they introduced the rainbow trout. Uh, but, uh, but it's, that's how 01:10:44.838 --> 01:10:49.506 big a threat, uh, 01:10:49.539 --> 01:10:57.539 striped Nasar to that ecosystem. Uh, there are, uh, well, 01:10:57.750 --> 01:11:04.156 nobody can explain how the green sunfish got. The lady of the local Glen 01:11:04.189 --> 01:11:09.397 Canyon Dam. They have tried to poison it out. They've done this, done that. 01:11:09.430 --> 01:11:16.876 It, it, they haven't fixed the, uh, uh, they have figured out why 01:11:16.909 --> 01:11:23.595 the german brown trout are migrating north up the river. And, uh, they got 01:11:23.628 --> 01:11:31.628 another fish problem up in Cataract Canyon, uh, the, uh, 01:11:33.009 --> 01:11:35.527 Asian Carp 01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:42.317 and it's a breeding population. My biologists that I use, tell me it's 01:11:42.350 --> 01:11:50.350 only a matter of time before they get down below the dam. They, uh, live a 01:11:50.859 --> 01:11:58.196 very long time. They eat everything. I mean, they moss and whatnot, 01:11:58.229 --> 01:12:00.437 plankton 01:12:00.470 --> 01:12:07.916 and fish. Uh, they're used in the suburb project system and the triploid 01:12:07.949 --> 01:12:13.027 are used in the suburb project system in every lake on every golf course 01:12:13.060 --> 01:12:20.656 here. And we uh we were using diploids here and some of them started 01:12:20.689 --> 01:12:26.135 breeding and they were being purchased from hatcheries in Arkansas and 01:12:26.168 --> 01:12:33.425 passed a law that I got involved in uh to require triple H and I had to go 01:12:33.458 --> 01:12:41.458 drain uh everything to get rid of these fish. And 01:12:43.128 --> 01:12:47.826 in the part of the Arizona canal that runs through sunny slope, we had all 01:12:47.859 --> 01:12:52.996 these Vietnamese come in and settle up there and they were draining this 01:12:53.029 --> 01:12:56.796 and trying to capture these fish. And every time the SRP guys turned 01:12:56.829 --> 01:13:01.666 around, they go down and steal the fish. I mean, it's Asian car Mekong 01:13:01.699 --> 01:13:08.467 river. Hello. Uh it was, it was dinner. They couldn't believe it. And uh 01:13:08.500 --> 01:13:16.500 but now we have tripods and uh and they work and that's fine but not cat 01:13:17.708 --> 01:13:22.746 how they got in cataract Canyon. God only knows that they're there and we 01:13:22.779 --> 01:13:28.326 have all these threats. Now, these are warm water species. 01:13:28.359 --> 01:13:32.956 The water comes out of the dam at what 5052 01:13:32.989 --> 01:13:40.476 uh when they flattened the river in 2000, we bathed in the river 01:13:40.509 --> 01:13:45.546 while camp at a beach in Middle Grata Gorge. It was that warm. That's not 01:13:45.579 --> 01:13:49.866 good. We, you can't have it. You can't flatten the river. And yet some 01:13:49.899 --> 01:13:57.899 people think flattening the river is, in fact uh the solution, but it 01:13:58.279 --> 01:14:03.967 can't be because if you warm that river, nature is going to create a 01:14:04.000 --> 01:14:09.976 habitat that these other species will want to occupy. It's a basic 01:14:10.009 --> 01:14:16.326 principle of biology as I'm sure you're aware that a species will occupy 01:14:16.359 --> 01:14:24.359 whatever habitat it can, it's suitable for it. And, uh, and, and, and, and 01:14:25.869 --> 01:14:30.857 so we, you know, I mean, ever since this whole thing started every time we 01:14:30.890 --> 01:14:33.756 fiddled with something, 01:14:33.789 --> 01:14:39.746 there's the law of unintended consequences has reared its ugly head. Salt 01:14:39.779 --> 01:14:44.576 Cedar. When we first started floating the river in the seventies private 01:14:44.609 --> 01:14:52.609 trips, there was her Lady Salt Cedar Italy ferry. Um And, and now there's 01:14:53.890 --> 01:14:56.536 this huge busky. 01:14:56.569 --> 01:14:58.616 Uh 01:14:58.649 --> 01:15:04.036 so they get this bill and then put it on the salt cedar and the Virgin 01:15:04.069 --> 01:15:09.376 River and it does its job and they thought, all right, it'll eat its way 01:15:09.409 --> 01:15:16.246 down the Virgin River and die and just go away and be nice. So now it's 01:15:16.279 --> 01:15:21.906 gradually working its way up to Colorado, but the Southwester Little 01:15:21.939 --> 01:15:26.446 flycatcher is nesting. You know, it's not playing the, the script, you 01:15:26.479 --> 01:15:30.805 know, with the script properly and it's nesting in the salt sea. It's 01:15:30.838 --> 01:15:38.838 adapting. Uh And that is now created, you know, yet another problem and 01:15:40.159 --> 01:15:42.897 all of this fiddling 01:15:42.930 --> 01:15:49.706 uh head heads to me, 01:15:49.739 --> 01:15:53.277 put in question this 01:15:53.310 --> 01:15:58.897 the way people think in this adaptive management work group, everybody has 01:15:58.930 --> 01:16:05.467 their own agenda, everybody's pushing their own aspect of things and their 01:16:05.500 --> 01:16:10.067 own personal belief and 01:16:10.100 --> 01:16:14.586 nobody's looking at an overall picture. I mean, we've been think how many 01:16:14.619 --> 01:16:19.416 decades we've been at this and we don't have a solution. This is what you 01:16:19.449 --> 01:16:23.746 said, it's an experimental program. When does the experiment end? When do 01:16:23.779 --> 01:16:29.265 you get solutions? When can you say uh ha we have been conducting 01:16:29.298 --> 01:16:36.156 experiments here for 40 years and we now have solutions. This is what we 01:16:36.189 --> 01:16:40.147 ought to do. We're not anywhere near there. You can't even get the people 01:16:40.180 --> 01:16:43.196 who go to the meetings to agree 01:16:43.229 --> 01:16:49.845 on, on a particular strategy other than doing the next study and, and, and 01:16:49.878 --> 01:16:57.878 , and, you know, uh that's what scientists like to do. God love them. But 01:16:58.159 --> 01:17:02.027 uh if we're gonna, 01:17:02.060 --> 01:17:05.237 if we're gonna get somewhere, 01:17:05.270 --> 01:17:13.270 somebody's got to take control of this situation and shape it toward some 01:17:14.838 --> 01:17:22.217 realistic future to me. And that's what's missing it. It, it, it, it, it, 01:17:22.250 --> 01:17:26.027 there's no, 01:17:26.060 --> 01:17:34.060 there's no control here. It just, it's amorphous and, and uh everybody's 01:17:35.100 --> 01:17:38.357 study is fine. I mean, who's gonna criticize somebody else's study? 01:17:38.390 --> 01:17:43.036 Because then if you do that, then when you do your study, they'll 01:17:43.069 --> 01:17:47.845 criticize yours. It's one of the problems you have with peer review is you 01:17:47.878 --> 01:17:52.116 got to be very careful about what you say about somebody else's work. You 01:17:52.149 --> 01:17:56.555 know, one of the things lawyers don't have to put up with, you know, we 01:17:56.588 --> 01:18:04.246 don't expect other lawyers to compliment us on our work nor do should they 01:18:04.279 --> 01:18:08.885 expect us to compliment them? And, you know, if you can't stand the heat, 01:18:08.918 --> 01:18:14.206 get out of the kitchen. Uh, the, the being a lawyer is a, is a, is a 01:18:14.239 --> 01:18:22.086 process of, of confrontation. And, but 01:18:22.119 --> 01:18:27.296 to me, the whole thing just 01:18:27.329 --> 01:18:32.647 isn't pointed toward a result. Nobody said, ok, you've got five more years 01:18:32.680 --> 01:18:37.476 and then you're done or you've got to do this or you've got to do that. 01:18:37.509 --> 01:18:40.277 It's all. Well, we have this next study we're gonna do and everybody says 01:18:40.310 --> 01:18:43.675 , isn't that wonderful? And we've got this study and isn't that wonderful 01:18:43.708 --> 01:18:48.116 ? And we've tried this well, the planning of the Humpback chub and all 01:18:48.149 --> 01:18:55.406 these tributaries has worked. But what happens if we don't solve the 01:18:55.439 --> 01:19:03.439 German Brown Tribe issue? Uh What happens if people who like the idea of 01:19:03.509 --> 01:19:07.296 flattening the river, let the river warm up and we get striped bass in the 01:19:07.329 --> 01:19:13.437 river? I mean, where, you know, I mean, there's many, many things have 01:19:13.470 --> 01:19:21.470 been tried and, and, and the oops factor has business and started with ro 01:19:21.649 --> 01:19:25.116 knowing the river that created the endangered fish problem in the first 01:19:25.149 --> 01:19:29.576 place. Uh because they want to put recreational fish in the river for 01:19:29.609 --> 01:19:32.607 people to enjoy. 01:19:32.640 --> 01:19:38.425 But there are solutions. But the solutions are gonna require 01:19:38.458 --> 01:19:46.458 a change in mindset. In my view, people are gonna watch 01:19:46.470 --> 01:19:49.586 to have 01:19:49.619 --> 01:19:57.619 uh answers and want to have each other's interests 01:19:57.729 --> 01:20:05.607 mature into solutions. That, that makes sense and that provide value to 01:20:05.640 --> 01:20:12.336 each of the interests involved in the thing. They're gonna want everybody 01:20:12.369 --> 01:20:19.237 to win and that ain't there now. Not even close. 01:20:19.270 --> 01:20:22.836 I think that's an excellent place to wrap up. That's probably one of the 01:20:22.869 --> 01:20:29.996 most articulate criticisms we've had of uh of the program um in, in our 01:20:30.029 --> 01:20:33.726 oral history interview. So that was very valuable. Thank you. Thank you 01:20:33.759 --> 01:20:38.635 for that. I'll teach you to come to my house 01:20:38.668 --> 01:20:43.600 and drink my tangelo juice. That was excellent tangelo juice.