WEBVTT

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 One.

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This is Paul Hertz and Jen Sweeney of
Arizona State University

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interviewing Paul Grahams at the Grand
Canyon Monitoring and Research

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Center in Flagstaff Arizona on January
24th, 2020. Thank you for joining

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us today. Paul, happy to be here. Um
Start out by telling us your name and

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spell it for us, please. And who you
work for and the years that you've

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been involved in Grand Canyon
research. Uh Yeah. Well, my name is Paul

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Grams. Uh Paulgr

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A MS. Um I've been uh working at uh
the US GS here at GCMRC. I started 12

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years and I started in January 2008.
Um just a couple of months before the

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2008 high flow experiment which I'm
sure we'll talk about. Um But my

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involvement actually dates back to
January of 1991 when I uh went on a

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wintertime river trip as an
undergraduate student

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with uh which professors and to do
what kind of research that was uh again

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, that was a wintertime trip. I was an
undergraduate at Middlebury College

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in Vermont. I had already taken one
geomorphology class from Jack Schmidt

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and he offered, this was the second
time he did it, he was a professor at

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Middlebury at the time and he offered
uh a winter term. Middlebury was on

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a, on a kind of winter term schedule
where they had a January term that

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students could just do one class. And
so he offered a January term class

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that was essentially a Colorado river
trip. Uh studying, you know, the uh

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the the issues on river management and
connected with studying the issues

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on river management in Grand Canyon.
And so I took that as a I because I

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was a, a junior or a senior. I can't
quite remember how did your career as

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a researcher evolve from that original
trip? I assume you fell in love

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with the Grand Canyon. Well, it was a
great trip. There was about uh

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probably about 12 students. Uh Jack,
uh a river guide named Tom Moody who

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was very instrumental in uh the early
part of the program. Um and a couple

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other uh friends of Jack's on the trip
and we did a tw I think it was a

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2122 day trip, which is a very long
trip with a motor rig, which means,

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you know, lots of, lots of time uh
camping, lots of time to do hikes. It

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was a, it was a great experience and
we got to see a lot of sites on that

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trip. Um And then after that trip, I
went on and did uh undergraduate

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thesis, working with Jack as my
advisor, studying uh sediment related

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issues on the Snake River in Hells
Canyon. So um so that was really the

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start of the that trip kind of set me
on the course towards studying

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rivers and uh studying especially
studying rivers downstream from dams.

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And was the beginning of what is that
uh you know, getting

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uh 30 year, getting close to a 30 year
working relationship with, with

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Jack on studying rivers. And so,
working with him still today on both the

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Colorado River and throughout the
basin. So you have both a master's and a

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phd. You specialized in river
geomorphology. Um You want to talk a little

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bit about the uh research that you
continue to do as you went after those

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advanced degrees. Um Yeah, I did an
undergraduate degree in geology. And

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again, that was I did a, a master's
thesis on uh looking at sand bars. You

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know, we, that river trip we did in
Grand Canyon, we surveyed a few

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sandbars that Jack had studied. You
know, Jack did his, his dissertation

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research in Grand Canyon in the 19
eighties. And so this wasn't too long

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after that. And so we went back to his
study sites, surveyed a few

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sandbars. But um he was at that time,
you know, thinking more broadly than

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Grand Canyon. And we got some uh
people interested in studying uh sand

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bars on the snake river in Hells
Canyon. So I did a little part of that as

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a undergraduate thesis um looked at in
the Hells Canyon is a, is a place

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where um you know, in Grand Canyon, we
have the sediment rich tributaries

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below the dam that we can talk about
more. But that supply a lot of

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sediment that make uh make it possible
to sustain the, the sandbars in

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Grand Canyon. Whereas in on the Snake
River, there's very little

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tributaries downstream. So it was a
case where there was extreme sandbar

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erosion caused by the upstream dam.
And so we documented that and um today

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, uh it was kind of a very low profile
study at the time. But uh there are

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still people up there managing uh
Hells Canyon Dam who, who refer back to

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that work in our dealing with, you
know, the effects of Hells Canny Dam on

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the sandbars downstream. Um But then
after that, I uh uh took a year or

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two off and then uh was living in Utah
and Jack by that time, had moved

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from Vermont to Utah State University
and he, and kind of his interest in

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looking at other river systems or
other parts of the Colorado River basin

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, um had gotten a project with the
National Park Service to look at how

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Flaming Gorge Dam had affected the,
the Green River in Dinosaur National

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Monument. And so he offered that to me
as a master's thesis project. So I

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spent, uh you know, a mass three years
or so working on that project. And

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uh and that was uh essentially
evolved, involved looking at how the dam

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operations, you know, the building of
Flaming Gorge Dam had changed the

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downstream river system first in
dinosaur. And then we expanded it a

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little bit to include the whole river
from Flaming Gorge Dam down through

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to the the Vernal Utah area and
country. So I finished that up and wasn't

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quite sure what I was going to do
next, but continued working on rivers

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with Jack and at Utah State for a
couple of years as sort of a research

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associate then decided I wanted to go
ahead and do a uh pursue a phd. And

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uh I got in touch with uh a professor
at Johns Hopkins named Peter Wilcock

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, who was somebody I'd met a few times
and uh it was a colleague of Jack's

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and um decided to go work with him to
do something just a little bit

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different and did something that was
more of a um uh less of a field based

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study and more of a, a modeling and
laboratory based study. So I did uh

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experiments in the laboratory flume
and uh modeling work and, but that was

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related to Grand Canyon. It was with
uh it was um uh partially funded by

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the Glen Kanny Dam Adaptive Management
Program and it was looking at

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controls on sand entrainment and sand
transport and of course bedded river

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systems. But with laboratory
experiments, can you explain the word

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entrainment? Oh The, the the the
picking up of sand from the bed of the

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river by the, by the water. So the
process by which water is picking up

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the sand and carrying it in
suspension. And so, so you did your phd um uh

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doing research again on sediment
transport, essentially, essentially

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sediment transport. Yeah, in Grand
Canyon. And when you finish that phd is

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that when you got hired here at Grand
Canyon Monitoring and research, not

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immediately, although I just did a
couple year postdoc position um at Utah

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State University. So the phd was at
Johns Hopkins uh and then moved back

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to Utah where I lived for a long time,
did a couple of years there of post

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working on, on looking at streams, uh
mountain streams in the forest for

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the forest service related project.
But then this, then this job came up

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and uh took that and this job is what,
tell us a little bit more about

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what you do here. Um

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I was hired now, this is a bit of the
program and evolution of, of GCMRC

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is um I was hired as a program manager
which was the Physical Science

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program manager position in 2008. Um
And at that time, the structure of

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GCRC was a little bit different than
it is. Now, at that time, we were

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structured a little bit more as a uh
uh with managers of a few different

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programs. Um And I don't, when uh
there's been some evolution in terms of

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how GCRC has functioned since it was
started. There was I think some

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uncertainty or even an idea that GCMRC
might be a very small organization

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and most of the work would be
contracted out or done through co-operative

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agreements with universities. And GC
Mercy would be a small number of

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managers that manage those contracts.
And I was hired at a point where it

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maybe in between that, where there was
quite a bit of work done in house

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because, you know, there's things that
are ongoing. So the idea of always

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contracting out, I think kind of
immediately became problematic. But at

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any rate, I was hired as one of those
program managers and did that job

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for a couple of years and in that
capacity, I I um managed the uh uh

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sediment monitoring program that's
continuing now. Um and uh sandbar

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monitoring program. Um but more as a
manager and then after a couple of

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years, and this is Jack Schmidt comes
into the story again here. He was

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hired as chief and

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2012 11.

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I don't remember the year, but he, he
was um hired as the chief and he

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felt that we should have more of a
research focus in house. And he made it

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possible for me to transition my
position from uh quote unquote program

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manager into a research scientist. So
my title now is a research

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hydrologist. And so instead of sort of
broadly overseeing programs, I

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manage a couple of research projects.
So it's a uh somewhat of a semantic

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difference but it, it, it, it, it is a
real difference in terms of how the

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work gets done here. Um because
instead of just managing projects, so

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David Topping, who comes over to my
colleague, Coequal, he manages the

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suspended sediment transport
monitoring and measuring program. And I was

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nominally overseeing that as a program
manager. Well, now he's just

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managing his project and then I have
the sandbar project that I just

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manage and, and work on as a
researcher, not just as a manager. So you

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work for the US Geological Survey here
at GCMRC. Um But much of the work

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that you're doing goes to inform
decision making for the Glen Canon Dam

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Adaptive Management Program. Can you
talk a little bit about how you see

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your role as a researcher at GCMRC in
the larger environment of the

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Adaptive Management Program? What's
your role in the Adaptive Management

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Program? Well, I, I mean, I, you know,
I mean, I think simply our role as

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I think every as people generally call
it is to be the science provider,

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the information provider. So I do see
it as

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giving them the information they seek
to make management decisions um and

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trying to and uh and also I think a
big part of the role is because they

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do this as, you know, nonspecialists,
certainly, at least or no. Most of

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them, non science, I mean, a lot of
them have science backgrounds but some

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of them don't. And if there's, if they
do have a science background, it

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could be in any area. So, a big part
of our role is educators on the

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science we do and on how the system
works and connecting that with

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whatever resource or um whether it's a
biological resource, a species of

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fish or whether it's the, the sediment
or the sandbars themselves, how

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those are related to the work we do or
how, how um how they are, how they

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are changing or how they are being
affected by the, the dam operations or

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other factors that might cause changes
in those resources. So does, does

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your research is your research agenda,
your personal one and GCMR CS

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larger constellation of research um Is
it partly directed by questions and

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problems that the adaptive management
program participants oppose to? You

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? Do? Can they come to you and say we
need to know more about X? So we can

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make a decision about why is that?
Yeah, and it, it happens on, you know,

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with the program that's gone on for so
long. I mean, they have some

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general goals um that, you know,
sometimes it'd be nice if the, the goals

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could be more specific, but that's
difficult in the political and in the

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in the context. But uh you know, so
for, for sediment, they have a goal

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that's something like to, to uh
maintain or increase uh sediment um uh

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throughout the Colorado River and
Grand Canyon for recreational um

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cultural and biological or ecological
purposes. So, that's recovering

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sediment that has been lost since
Saddam was put in. Right. That would be

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, uh I think that would be up to
interpretation and reading that. I mean,

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the, the goal is really, they,
they've, they've written, they spent quite

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a bit of time and it's, it's uh to
maintain or increase. So when it comes

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to saying, do we want to bring back to
a restoring to a pre dam condition

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? That's something that they would,
that different stakeholders might have

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different opinions about. Um when it,
what we try to do in those

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situations is tell them, OK, here's
what it used to look like. Here, here

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, here's what we have relative to a
pre condition. It's up to them to

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decide whether that's the goal or not.
They have not, they have not

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declared that, I mean, having a pre
damn condition as a goal would be

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pretty difficult to achieve and they
haven't, they haven't set that goal

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specifically. So some of your work, um
you know, I'm at a university and

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there's uh academic freedom in the
sense where I could choose to research

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anything I wanted to research. As long
as I could find, some financial

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support are you sort of in between
that where you can choose some of your

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own research projects and generate the
science that you think is valuable.

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But also you're responsible for
helping develop a knowledge space to

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support decision making in the
Adaptive management program. Are you

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juggling those two? Together? We do
juggle those. I mean, we are free to

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do research on any just like an
academic. If we can bring in funding for

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other research, we are free to work on
that. And so we do have some of us

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don't, some of us at, at, at GCRC work
only in Grand Canyon and some have

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some other, a few other outside
projects. I have a couple other non Grand

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Canyon projects that funding comes in
for and I work on separately from

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Grand Canyon. So we are free to do
that as, as uh as scientists um within

00:15:50.830 --> 00:15:55.866
Grand Canyon. If we're using, you
know, our, our uh adaptive management

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program funding, we try to keep it to
things that are tied to the program

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and are directly relevant. We have a
work plan process where we do that.

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So within that, if um to I guess
maintain some level of uh there are

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certain things that, you know, we
monitor uh sand bars in the same way

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every, every year. And we've done it
for 30 years that doesn't create a

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high impact journal article
publication each year because it's kind of an

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ongoing data series of the same thing.
So when it comes to um maybe adding

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a little bit of innovative science to
that, we try to bring in new

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technology at times. So evaluate
different methods to, to monitor what is

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of interest to the stakeholders. But
doing it in, in new ways, we've

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evaluated use of, you know, um the the
sandbar surveys that we do um were

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started by uh uh the group at Northern
Arizona University and uh the early

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19 nineties and uh using methods at
the time and those have evolved a

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little bit um traditional survey
methods. So we've evolved, we've explored

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uh bringing in more modern or new
technology and things like that. So

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that's some of the ways we uh are
doing the, the work for the Adaptive

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Management Program, but also keeping
it current and, and scientifically

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relevant. Mhm. Great. So, um one last
question about the relationship

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between GCMRC and the Adaptive
Management Program. And then I wanna drill

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down into the science of segmentation
a little bit more. What, what is

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your sense of, of what the
relationship is? And I know it's changed over

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time. You've only been here since
2008. But how do you see that

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relationship besides you're a science
provider? Is there anything more you

00:17:52.348 --> 00:17:59.906
can say about that? Oh, I think it, I
mean, it's, it's

00:17:59.939 --> 00:18:06.736
um hm we

00:18:06.769 --> 00:18:11.967
beyond being the science provider. Um

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:18.055
I think it's a source of stability for
the program. Um there are, I mean,

00:18:18.088 --> 00:18:24.347
there are stakeholders that have been
around for a long time. Um And there

00:18:24.380 --> 00:18:29.706
are new stakeholders. Um And so it
kind of brings back to that kind of

00:18:29.739 --> 00:18:32.867
comes back to that education side of
it. I mean, that's one thing I try to

00:18:32.900 --> 00:18:38.877
keep in mind now, I think when I
started 12 years ago, a majority of the

00:18:38.910 --> 00:18:42.476
stakeholders were people who had been
involved in the program since the

00:18:42.509 --> 00:18:48.545
beginning. And uh so maybe the
education aspect wasn't quite the same then

00:18:48.578 --> 00:18:52.217
, but we're in a stage now where a lot
of the original stakeholders,

00:18:52.250 --> 00:18:55.676
there's a lot of turnover of people
retiring new people coming in. So I

00:18:55.709 --> 00:19:00.857
think uh providing that kind of
continuity and education to make it

00:19:00.890 --> 00:19:06.377
possible for new stakeholders or ones
that are less familiar and have

00:19:06.410 --> 00:19:10.285
probably have less time to actually
come up to speed, you know, don't we

00:19:10.318 --> 00:19:15.535
now have a, I mean, if you added up
the publications and the, the amount

00:19:15.568 --> 00:19:19.545
of literature and what's been written
and not written or is in gray

00:19:19.578 --> 00:19:22.785
literature on the Colorado River and
Grand Canyon, there's nobody that

00:19:22.818 --> 00:19:27.446
could get through that. And in 10
years, let alone, you know, if they're

00:19:27.479 --> 00:19:30.436
just starting out as a new
stakeholder, it's kind of overwhelming. So I

00:19:30.469 --> 00:19:35.906
think distilling what's, you know,
important uh within each area that we

00:19:35.939 --> 00:19:40.456
work in for them is, is I think one
important thing we provide are there

00:19:40.489 --> 00:19:44.976
specific documents in which you do
that distillation.

00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:51.656
Uh You know, that's a good question. I
uh I mean, we do our, our work plan

00:19:51.689 --> 00:19:56.526
is on a three year cycle. So each time
we write a work plan that has um

00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:00.897
some of that in it, II I don't know if
I can say that's uh uh if it, if we

00:20:00.930 --> 00:20:05.285
write those intentionally with as a,
as a kind of a broad overview, but

00:20:05.318 --> 00:20:10.085
those are provided in that in our
reports. But no, I, I think it happens

00:20:10.118 --> 00:20:14.276
when we interact with them mostly at
meetings and give our presentations

00:20:14.309 --> 00:20:18.137
on our, our project updates that we
try. I try to do that kind of a thing

00:20:18.170 --> 00:20:21.776
. I, I bring that up because a little
bit later, I'm gonna ask you a

00:20:21.809 --> 00:20:26.726
question about key reports or
documents that um should be preserved for

00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:31.335
the historical record that provide
sort of summaries of important

00:20:31.368 --> 00:20:35.347
developments or important research.
And so, um keep that in the back of

00:20:35.380 --> 00:20:39.217
your mind and we'll come back to it a
little bit later. Um So what have we

00:20:39.250 --> 00:20:44.916
learned about sediment and the Grand
Canyon and the role of the dam in

00:20:44.949 --> 00:20:50.075
shaping, you know, that sediment
transport and sediment load and sediment

00:20:50.108 --> 00:20:55.956
deposition since 1991 when you were
first down there? Oh boy, since 1991.

00:20:55.989 --> 00:21:03.989
Um There's been a lot since 1991 at
that period. It was uh just when um

00:21:07.489 --> 00:21:15.489
there was the push to really constrain
dama operations from extreme

00:21:16.469 --> 00:21:24.469
fluctuations on a daily basis. So from
in the 19 sixties, up until 1990 91

00:21:26.259 --> 00:21:31.117
the dam was operated primarily for
hydropower generation. So daily

00:21:31.150 --> 00:21:37.867
fluctuations from lows of around 5000
cubic feet per second to highs of

00:21:37.900 --> 00:21:42.266
around 30,000 cubic feet per second on
a daily basis. That was, that's

00:21:42.299 --> 00:21:45.085
probably the extreme range, but I
think it typically fluctuated from

00:21:45.118 --> 00:21:51.357
around five or six up to 25,000 CFS,
which is very high. The pre dam

00:21:51.390 --> 00:21:56.835
average flood was around um 85 or
90,000 cubic feet per second. So that's

00:21:56.868 --> 00:22:00.305
fluctuating from essentially not
turning the river off, but turning it way

00:22:00.338 --> 00:22:06.315
down low to a third of an annual flood
each day. And so that was a source

00:22:06.348 --> 00:22:11.127
of um uh uh a mechanism

00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:15.147
of, of sand erosion. I mean, the sand
bar deposits are inherently unstable

00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:20.835
, but the dam did two things. It uh
it, it, it blocked all upstream

00:22:20.868 --> 00:22:24.535
sediment from the whole Colorado river
basin from entering Grand Canyon

00:22:24.568 --> 00:22:29.186
and then it changed the flow regime.
And so those two things resulted in

00:22:29.219 --> 00:22:34.785
erosion with the clear water, high
fluctuating flows, but then the lack of

00:22:34.818 --> 00:22:41.137
replenishment because the upper basin
um sediment uh delivery was gone. So

00:22:41.170 --> 00:22:44.575
those two things contribute to a big
decline in sandbars. And in the

00:22:44.608 --> 00:22:49.217
nineties, that was the point at which
they had seen that they had seen the

00:22:49.250 --> 00:22:55.097
potential um by the, there was a uh
unintentional floods that occurred in

00:22:55.130 --> 00:23:01.926
1983 and 84. And they saw, wow, even
in this, in a system that's been so

00:23:01.959 --> 00:23:06.916
impacted, the sandbars could recover
because those floods did build sand

00:23:06.949 --> 00:23:10.127
bars on the banks of the river. And
they saw that and then they saw that

00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:15.416
they were eroding again. And so I
think that sparked the idea with the,

00:23:15.449 --> 00:23:20.055
the sediment, senior sediment
scientists at the time. Uh you know, Jack

00:23:20.088 --> 00:23:28.006
Schmidt, uh Ned A Andrews. Um uh Bob
Webb. Uh I'm sure others, Tim Randall

00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:33.016
at the Bureau of Reclamation, I think
was involved. Um I was a, I was an

00:23:33.049 --> 00:23:37.535
undergraduate student, so I was
sitting at the outside ring of the

00:23:37.568 --> 00:23:41.877
campfire when they were having those
discussions on that river trip in, in

00:23:41.910 --> 00:23:48.156
uh 1991 about, well, what would happen
if we did uh um an intentional

00:23:48.189 --> 00:23:52.426
flood release from the dam? Would that
do the same thing as those floods

00:23:52.459 --> 00:23:56.585
in the 19 eighties? And so that was, I
think that was a big turning point

00:23:56.618 --> 00:24:02.055
was just the, the, the um the idea and
the follow through that happened at

00:24:02.088 --> 00:24:06.486
that time to, to give it a try with
that first experimental flood that

00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:11.656
they did in 1996. So I think that idea
came about and I'm sure if you've

00:24:11.689 --> 00:24:16.357
uh you need to check with uh some of
those guys on when exactly they came

00:24:16.390 --> 00:24:20.516
up with the idea. But it was around
that time. And then um it took a few

00:24:20.549 --> 00:24:25.936
years for it to gain traction and to
get the, the, the the political will

00:24:25.969 --> 00:24:29.347
to do it behind it. But, but by the
time that happened in 1996 that was a

00:24:29.380 --> 00:24:34.696
big turning point then and, and uh the
that provided the demonstration

00:24:34.729 --> 00:24:38.776
that yes, you could use the dam to
raise the river to build sandboards

00:24:38.809 --> 00:24:42.176
because the real problem with the the
situation of the sandboards are

00:24:42.209 --> 00:24:46.256
those two things, the lack of a flood
to build them and then you need the

00:24:46.289 --> 00:24:50.377
supply to do it. So there's just, it's
pretty simple process. We just need

00:24:50.410 --> 00:24:53.726
two things. You need the water to move
the sand around, but then you need

00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:56.627
the sand there to begin with. And
those are the two things we study is

00:24:56.660 --> 00:25:01.597
what is, is, is um what the floods do,
what the flows do to building the

00:25:01.630 --> 00:25:06.367
bars. But then is there enough supply
of the sand such that those floods

00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:10.597
can actually do it because if there
isn't enough supply, then the floods

00:25:10.630 --> 00:25:16.506
will eventually cause net erosion.
There's enough background storage that

00:25:16.539 --> 00:25:21.666
you could do a few of these floods and
expect them to build sand bars.

00:25:21.699 --> 00:25:25.887
It's kind of like a deficit spending
situation. Are you, are you, are you

00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:31.186
, are you using that last bit in your
bank account to build some sand bars

00:25:31.219 --> 00:25:38.335
and then gonna run out or are you are,
you, do you have a auto auto

00:25:38.368 --> 00:25:43.795
deposit system going that's putting
sand back in. So now you mentioned um

00:25:43.828 --> 00:25:48.686
when Glen Canyon Dam went in, it, cut
off the flow of sediment from all of

00:25:48.719 --> 00:25:53.075
the upstream tributaries, there's
still a few downstream tributaries below

00:25:53.108 --> 00:25:58.186
Glen Canyon Dam. Not too many. Would
you explain what and where they are?

00:25:58.219 --> 00:26:04.920
And a little bit about how you monitor
those to determine when a high flow

00:26:04.953 --> 00:26:09.151
experiment is appropriate, you know,
and those are critical and that, and

00:26:09.184 --> 00:26:15.781
that is what makes it possible to do
this in Grand Canyon to manage the

00:26:15.814 --> 00:26:21.516
system for both the hydropower
interests and for sand bars and for

00:26:21.549 --> 00:26:25.847
recreational interests is that we have
tributaries that do supply a lot of

00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:30.986
sediment. And the first of those is
the Pura River. It drains a big, big

00:26:31.019 --> 00:26:37.825
portion of southern Utah. It comes
into the Colorado River just at Lee's

00:26:37.858 --> 00:26:43.847
ferry about 15 miles downstream from
Glen Canyon Dam. So really relatively

00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:49.426
soon down near downstream from the dam
is a tributary that supplies a lot

00:26:49.459 --> 00:26:55.607
of sediment. Um Not a lot in context,
what the pre dam average loads were.

00:26:55.640 --> 00:27:00.776
Something on the order of maybe five
ish percent of what would have gone

00:27:00.809 --> 00:27:06.967
by Lee's ferry. Um Without the dam is
what the priya delivers on average.

00:27:07.000 --> 00:27:11.617
But the, but because it's just one
tributary you're dealing with, you

00:27:11.650 --> 00:27:15.936
know, the, and, and, and, and the
sediment delivery events are triggered

00:27:15.969 --> 00:27:23.176
by very unpredictable uh summer
monsoon type thunderstorm events. So when

00:27:23.209 --> 00:27:27.795
that sediment comes in, it's
predictable in the sense that it happens in

00:27:27.828 --> 00:27:32.196
the late summer, early fall, sometime
July through September each year.

00:27:32.229 --> 00:27:36.097
But you have years when nothing
happens and which occurred last year. And

00:27:36.130 --> 00:27:39.897
then you have years that you get a lot
of uh monsoonal activity and a lot

00:27:39.930 --> 00:27:44.476
of thunderstorms and a lot of sediment
delivery. Um But that's the source

00:27:44.509 --> 00:27:49.276
of sediment, the source of resupply
the, the the replenishment of the bank

00:27:49.309 --> 00:27:55.266
account, the sediment bank account
that allows us to um use flood releases

00:27:55.299 --> 00:28:02.486
from the dam to rebuild sandbars. And
uh the way we do it is by measuring

00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:07.137
the stream flow and sediment
concentrations on the Priya River. So it's a

00:28:07.170 --> 00:28:10.236
river that almost dries up. It's
usually got a little bit of a trickle of

00:28:10.269 --> 00:28:13.627
water in it. But when a flood happens
and we know when a floods happening

00:28:13.660 --> 00:28:17.676
by simply by watching the weather or
we have upstream gauges that tell us

00:28:17.709 --> 00:28:20.940
when floods coming downstream. But
when we know a flood is coming

00:28:20.973 --> 00:28:26.272
downstream, um a team of hydrologists
from this office, get their trucks

00:28:26.305 --> 00:28:31.920
and drive out to Lee's ferry and start
sampling and they measure the flow

00:28:31.953 --> 00:28:37.111
and the sediment concentrations. And
then we start analyzing those data

00:28:37.144 --> 00:28:42.246
and calculating how much sediment is
coming in from the Priya River. And

00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:50.279
we do that every year. And um and then
this process is written up into a

00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:54.867
protocol that is a document produced
by the beer of reclamation for how

00:28:54.900 --> 00:28:59.607
the controlled floods will be
designed. And so we monitor those sediment

00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:05.456
inputs. And once we've gotten a few,
we um the data get published. I

00:29:05.489 --> 00:29:09.387
actually go to our website. Um but
they also go to the Bureau of

00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:17.377
Reclamation and then they use those
data in a model that, that predicts

00:29:17.410 --> 00:29:21.266
given that amount of sediment what
will happen to that sediment with or

00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:26.926
without a high flow. Um The idea here
is that it is all I think the

00:29:26.959 --> 00:29:31.387
banking, the bank account analogy is
the correct one because what we're

00:29:31.420 --> 00:29:38.377
trying to do is keep the sediment bank
account in um Marble Canyon, which

00:29:38.410 --> 00:29:43.486
is the the reach of the river between
Lee ferry and 60 miles downstream

00:29:43.519 --> 00:29:46.696
where the next major tributary comes
in. And I can talk about that more in

00:29:46.729 --> 00:29:51.496
a minute, but we're focused mainly on
the Priya River. We try to uh keep

00:29:51.529 --> 00:29:57.555
the sediment bank account and that
reach on an annual basis to be balanced.

00:29:57.588 --> 00:30:03.946
So that what goes in is about the same
as what goes out and what goes in

00:30:03.979 --> 00:30:07.766
is the sediment from the Priya River.
And what goes out is what the

00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:13.236
Colorado river transport out
downstream, 60 miles downstream from where

00:30:13.269 --> 00:30:17.117
the Pria River comes in. And we
measure that as well. We have a

00:30:17.150 --> 00:30:20.486
measurement program that measures
that. But we also have models that can

00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:26.456
predict how much will go out at the
downstream end. And so once we have uh

00:30:26.489 --> 00:30:30.055
some data on how much sediment has
come in from the Priya River, so maybe

00:30:30.088 --> 00:30:34.456
the Priya River has some storms in
August. And we get some data on that.

00:30:34.489 --> 00:30:37.637
By the end of August and early
September, we give that data to the Bureau

00:30:37.670 --> 00:30:44.986
of Reclamation and they run this model
and say, ok, we've had um 500,000

00:30:45.019 --> 00:30:50.676
tons of sand come in from the Priya
River. If we do normal dam operations.

00:30:50.709 --> 00:30:56.916
No, hi, no flood. Um about 100,000
tons of that sand will go out. That

00:30:56.949 --> 00:31:02.496
means there's 400,000 tons left in the
bank account to work with. So then

00:31:02.529 --> 00:31:07.176
they rerun the model putting in a
flood and they put in a flood. And the

00:31:07.209 --> 00:31:13.387
protocol that they've written allows
for a flood to be up to.

00:31:13.420 --> 00:31:18.045
Is it 60 or 96 hours? I can't remember
one of those two, a certain

00:31:18.078 --> 00:31:23.127
duration at the capacity of the power
plant plus the bypass tub. So that

00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:30.016
gets us to about 44 to 45,000 cubic
feet per second um flow rate that they

00:31:30.049 --> 00:31:34.206
could release from the dam for a
flood. So they run a model with that

00:31:34.239 --> 00:31:42.045
flood, 45,000 CFS for 60 hours and
then see what happens to the bank

00:31:42.078 --> 00:31:47.035
account of sediment. And if that
causes all the sediment to go out and

00:31:47.068 --> 00:31:51.085
drive it negative they decide that
floods too big and they rerun the model

00:31:51.118 --> 00:31:55.575
with the smaller flood. But if that
model predicts, gee, you can run that

00:31:55.608 --> 00:32:00.736
big flood and the balance is at zero
or above. They say, well, that's it.

00:32:00.769 --> 00:32:05.877
We can do it and then that's what they
schedule for the fall. So there's a

00:32:05.910 --> 00:32:11.137
high flow experimental flood each fall
if, depending on whether the

00:32:11.170 --> 00:32:15.746
sediment is there for it. Exactly.
Just following that, that step by step

00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:18.986
process, if there's enough sediment
from the Pria, that you can run a

00:32:19.019 --> 00:32:25.496
flood, but keep your Marble Canyon
sand bank account balance above zero,

00:32:25.529 --> 00:32:31.226
you can do it. If it drives it
negative, you reduce the size of that flood

00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:36.436
to a minimum of I think 24 hours and
at power plant capacity. So they run

00:32:36.469 --> 00:32:40.666
this model iteratively with
progressively smaller floods to find the one

00:32:40.699 --> 00:32:44.456
that fits. And if nothing fits, then
they don't do one at all. And that's

00:32:44.489 --> 00:32:48.637
what happened last year that the
sediment inputs were so low that I don't

00:32:48.670 --> 00:32:52.726
even know if they bothered. They
probably ran the model and, but the, the

00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:57.335
, the, the balance was already
negative without even having a flood. So,

00:32:57.368 --> 00:33:00.976
and that's what happens if you don't
have any Prius sediment inputs. So do

00:33:01.009 --> 00:33:04.117
you think uh before you turn to the
little Colorado River? Because I know

00:33:04.150 --> 00:33:12.035
that's your next example. Um Do you
think that um those models are working

00:33:12.068 --> 00:33:16.367
or are they constantly having to be
updated because what you expect to

00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:22.246
happen based on the modeling doesn't
happen. I mean, how close to

00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:26.916
predicting, you know, the outcome that
you want are the models. The models

00:33:26.949 --> 00:33:32.926
that this is the, this main model is a
model written by uh uh Scott Wright

00:33:32.959 --> 00:33:37.565
who worked, he's still a US GS
employee, but he worked at, at GCMRC up

00:33:37.598 --> 00:33:43.045
until just before I left. Um, now he's
with the California Water Science

00:33:43.078 --> 00:33:50.295
Center and by, by Scott and Dave
Topping, who's still here. And um it's a

00:33:50.328 --> 00:33:55.406
, it's a model for predicting sand
transport in the river based on uh the

00:33:55.439 --> 00:33:59.226
sediment supply conditions and flow
rate and it works pretty well. And so

00:33:59.259 --> 00:34:03.967
when we test the model performance by,
we do in this scenario, the

00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:08.385
predictive mode. But then we can,
after we've actually done the flood and

00:34:08.418 --> 00:34:12.445
everything we can compare the
measurements, the field data and do a do an

00:34:12.478 --> 00:34:16.586
after the fact assessment of how the
model performed predicted relative to

00:34:16.619 --> 00:34:20.095
what actually happened. And

00:34:20.128 --> 00:34:25.135
when we've done those comparisons, the
model predictions tend to be off by

00:34:25.168 --> 00:34:30.635
a little bit, but on the order of 1015
20% or something, which with the

00:34:30.668 --> 00:34:35.365
objectives of this, you know, the
model isn't designed and doesn't predict

00:34:35.398 --> 00:34:38.756
what happens to each individual
sandbar. It's not designed to do that and

00:34:38.789 --> 00:34:42.456
it doesn't do that. But what it does
do is predict this predict what's

00:34:42.489 --> 00:34:46.077
going to happen to the sediment bank
account and it does that closely

00:34:46.110 --> 00:34:50.905
enough that we can use it as this
management tool. So, um I mean, and I

00:34:50.938 --> 00:34:58.057
think it's a good example of where the
science really has produced

00:34:58.090 --> 00:35:04.376
something for man, for the managers at
a useful scale. I mean, people at

00:35:04.409 --> 00:35:07.896
the same time have spent effort, have
not spent quite a bit of effort

00:35:07.929 --> 00:35:15.256
trying to do much more precise and
finally resolved models that maybe

00:35:15.289 --> 00:35:19.396
would predict what every sandbar does.
But those never got finished

00:35:19.429 --> 00:35:24.026
because they're very complicated, very
finicky and difficult to difficult

00:35:24.059 --> 00:35:31.175
um and require a lot of, lot of input
data and constant evaluation.

00:35:31.208 --> 00:35:36.577
Whereas this model is pretty robust,
quite simple. And it does what the,

00:35:36.610 --> 00:35:41.017
what the managers really need, which
is a tool to tell them, you know,

00:35:41.050 --> 00:35:44.425
whether or not to do a flood and about
how big it should be. And if it's

00:35:44.458 --> 00:35:49.017
off by a few percent, it doesn't
matter that much. And it, and it looks

00:35:49.050 --> 00:35:52.606
like it's been off in the realm where
they tend to be a little more

00:35:52.639 --> 00:35:56.106
conservative, which is good that the
models predicted maybe a little more

00:35:56.139 --> 00:36:00.467
erosion that has ended than what has
ended up happening. So our, our, our

00:36:00.500 --> 00:36:05.405
sediment balance ends up being a
little bit positive, which is better. So

00:36:05.438 --> 00:36:10.836
it's erring on the side of, of holding
back a little bit. So the second uh

00:36:10.869 --> 00:36:16.247
tributary that uh contributes sediment
is the little Colorado River. Um

00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:23.675
and that is about uh 60 miles
downstream from Lee's ferry it uh at the

00:36:23.708 --> 00:36:26.736
time. And that's been, that's
something we're learning a lot about right

00:36:26.769 --> 00:36:32.845
now. And um uh a couple of my
colleagues here have recently completed a

00:36:32.878 --> 00:36:36.856
study of the little color red river
basin to better understand what's

00:36:36.889 --> 00:36:44.436
going on in that river basin. But um
it was considered to be about equal

00:36:44.469 --> 00:36:49.727
in the amount of sediment delivery to
the Priya River. Um It's looking

00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:52.885
like recently, the amount of sediment
contributed by the little Colorado

00:36:52.918 --> 00:36:58.967
River has declined um is less and uh
and it's also less predictable. It's

00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:02.146
a little bit um the monsoon storms,
although they happen in the little

00:37:02.179 --> 00:37:05.767
Colorado River basin, a lot of those
storms don't, they don't necessarily

00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:09.287
all make it down to the mouth,
delivering sediment to the Colorado River.

00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:14.646
Um And so as a supplier of sediment,
it's a little less reliable now than

00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:20.356
the than the upstream Priya River is.
Um And because of its location

00:37:20.389 --> 00:37:26.876
further downstream, um we focus
management on the Priya River and the

00:37:26.909 --> 00:37:30.557
upstream reach because it's the reach
and the greatest amount of sediment

00:37:30.590 --> 00:37:37.497
deficit and because the system is
large, it's also a bit of ok, we need to

00:37:37.530 --> 00:37:41.506
constrain confine the problem a little
bit to make it manageable. And

00:37:41.539 --> 00:37:45.356
that's been sort of the manageable
thing is to tackle to, to, to run the

00:37:45.389 --> 00:37:50.577
protocol around the, the Priya River
and Marble Canyon and then we monitor

00:37:50.610 --> 00:37:56.316
the effects for the whole system. So
we, there's a bit of um manage it for

00:37:56.349 --> 00:38:01.816
the, for the upstream segment and then
monitoring downstream, hoping that

00:38:01.849 --> 00:38:06.675
it, it, it, it, it performs well down
there too.

00:38:06.708 --> 00:38:12.396
So when we have a high flow event, you
get both erosion and deposition

00:38:12.429 --> 00:38:16.655
depending on what kind of flow there
is how much sediment there is where

00:38:16.688 --> 00:38:20.916
you know which beach we're talking
about, which reach. Um And your goal as

00:38:20.949 --> 00:38:26.046
I understand it, then in designing
these HFES high flow experiments is to

00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:30.506
maximize the deposition to do beach
building flows as they used to be

00:38:30.539 --> 00:38:36.526
called and minimize beach erosion
because you're trying to build sediment

00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:41.905
on the shore on the beaches. Um
There's a number of the people that we've

00:38:41.938 --> 00:38:47.247
interviewed have suggested that the
HFES are not working and there's as

00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:51.816
much erosion or more than sediment. I
think it's probably changed over

00:38:51.849 --> 00:38:56.206
time. And you're the expert who can
probably answer that question for us.

00:38:56.239 --> 00:39:02.046
Have you gotten better at being able
to figure out how to make the HFS

00:39:02.079 --> 00:39:07.477
deposit more than they erode?

00:39:07.510 --> 00:39:15.510
Well, we can't control what they do.
Um uh You open the dam. Uh But what

00:39:19.389 --> 00:39:24.727
the, the, the reality is, I mean, the
HFE, every time we've done one, they

00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:29.756
have resulted in more deposition of
sandbars than erosion. So the HFES

00:39:29.789 --> 00:39:35.115
themselves do cause sandbar
deposition. Um They're in the upper reach. I

00:39:35.148 --> 00:39:39.175
assume you're talking about the whole
river and we've seen this now, we've

00:39:39.208 --> 00:39:44.017
, we've done enough of them that, um,
there may be sites that get smaller

00:39:44.050 --> 00:39:48.497
but by and large, probably two thirds
of the sites we monitor at least get

00:39:48.530 --> 00:39:54.115
larger with, hhhfe. Um, a few get
smaller, but that would be a pretty

00:39:54.148 --> 00:39:58.767
small percentage and a few don't
change much. Uh, but most of them, uh,

00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:03.675
get bigger, I think. What, what, what
a lot of people see and what we, you

00:40:03.708 --> 00:40:07.365
know, honestly do have to, we do tell
them is that a lot of these, the

00:40:07.398 --> 00:40:13.227
bars then begin eroding again
immediately, um Or, you know, or within

00:40:13.260 --> 00:40:19.876
several months. Um So that by the time
you're maybe a year later, uh a lot

00:40:19.909 --> 00:40:26.287
of the sites are back to where they
started. Um And so

00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:34.320
that is uh really part of the process.
I mean, these are unstable sand

00:40:35.139 --> 00:40:39.546
bars in a, in a river with fluctuating
flows in a river that's constantly

00:40:39.579 --> 00:40:43.767
changing. Um In the pre damp system,
the bars weren't stable, they would

00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:49.287
be, the river would deposit huge sand
bars and native road. Um I think in

00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:54.186
some sense, the objective is for the
bars to erode. Um If you didn't

00:40:54.219 --> 00:40:57.456
intend for the bar to erode, there's
no point in, in building them. I mean

00:40:57.489 --> 00:41:01.467
, it's, it's a dynamic system and the
erosion is part of the process that

00:41:01.500 --> 00:41:07.486
I think we should be managing for. Um
because without the erosion, then,

00:41:07.519 --> 00:41:11.066
then they become locked in and stable.
And so one of the other issues

00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:13.577
that's going on and you probably talk
to people about is the vegetation

00:41:13.610 --> 00:41:16.635
encroachment. Well, some of these bars
that are the most active, which

00:41:16.668 --> 00:41:19.885
means that they get big and then they
erode, those are bars where the

00:41:19.918 --> 00:41:24.557
vegetation hasn't become established
and, and can be large sandbars. And

00:41:24.590 --> 00:41:29.206
so another way to look at it is by
doing the HFES, we have bars that are

00:41:29.239 --> 00:41:35.727
larger for a good fraction of the year
than they would be without the HFES.

00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:39.195
So they don't immediately erode to
nothing. They're there for people to

00:41:39.228 --> 00:41:46.077
use for a good chunk of the year. Um
And that we have to recognize that

00:41:46.110 --> 00:41:50.706
we're managing for a dynamic system
and not a static like the bars are

00:41:50.739 --> 00:41:56.566
perfect and they will be this way all
the time. Uh That's an excellent

00:41:56.599 --> 00:41:59.896
explanation. I appreciate that. Yeah,
we had a recent interview with

00:41:59.929 --> 00:42:05.256
somebody who was suggesting that um
the beaches haven't changed that much

00:42:05.289 --> 00:42:08.885
and once you create a beach, it'll be
there for 100 years. And that was

00:42:08.918 --> 00:42:13.416
different than anything I ever heard
from anybody else before. Um Does,

00:42:13.449 --> 00:42:21.449
does the research support that
assertion or not? Well, you know, and the

00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:25.885
dam has helped with that. There are
things that have been there for 100

00:42:25.918 --> 00:42:29.767
years now because the dam doesn't, the
flows don't get high enough to

00:42:29.800 --> 00:42:34.256
erode them. So, but we're not going to
build those beaches either because

00:42:34.289 --> 00:42:37.986
the dam doesn't get high enough to
build them. You mean the floods don't

00:42:38.019 --> 00:42:41.175
get high, right. The floods, sorry?
Yeah, the floods, the floods released

00:42:41.208 --> 00:42:44.956
from the dam don't get high enough to
build bars. That would be up high.

00:42:44.989 --> 00:42:50.776
So there are portions of sand bars now
that are completely overgrown with

00:42:50.809 --> 00:42:56.816
vegetation locked in place and will
not change unless, you know, all hell

00:42:56.849 --> 00:43:01.666
breaks loose and we get snow all
winter and, and they fill the reservoir

00:43:01.699 --> 00:43:06.135
and have to release, you know, floods
like they did in the 19 eighties.

00:43:06.168 --> 00:43:10.856
But until that happens, there are
things that won't change. Um So what

00:43:10.889 --> 00:43:14.796
we're managing with the HFES are a
portion of the sand bars that are

00:43:14.829 --> 00:43:20.477
dynamic that do change. Um And those
uh the ones that are static that the

00:43:20.510 --> 00:43:26.077
HFES don't affect tend to be the ones
that are stabilized by vegetation.

00:43:26.110 --> 00:43:32.256
And then there are the portions that
are um the active bars that the hfes

00:43:32.289 --> 00:43:37.026
do rebuild. Um You know, one of the
other things I've, you know, re remind

00:43:37.059 --> 00:43:40.856
that I point out when we're talking
about what the hfes do on the sand

00:43:40.889 --> 00:43:45.445
bars is that a lot of the places are
affected by smaller scale processes

00:43:45.478 --> 00:43:51.227
like uh hill slope runoff that uh that
cuts gullies across the sand bars,

00:43:51.260 --> 00:43:56.517
um Even even small tributaries that
form and, and erode a big gully in

00:43:56.550 --> 00:44:01.405
some of the campsites and sandbars and
then the hfes can come along and,

00:44:01.438 --> 00:44:05.195
and repair those gullies and fill it
in and basically create a new sandbar

00:44:05.228 --> 00:44:08.776
that might not be all that much bigger
than the bar was there before. But

00:44:08.809 --> 00:44:13.186
it's been essentially renovated.

00:44:13.219 --> 00:44:17.776
One of the other um complaints we've
heard from uh people we've

00:44:17.809 --> 00:44:24.155
interviewed um in uh involve um the
fact that the HFES are bringing a lot

00:44:24.188 --> 00:44:30.186
of sediment from the river bed itself
farther to down to the lower river

00:44:30.219 --> 00:44:35.977
and where it gets close to Lake Mead
and the flow is slower, it drops that

00:44:36.010 --> 00:44:40.521
sediment. And so places like Diamond
Creek where the wallop I try has a

00:44:40.554 --> 00:44:46.331
river running operation. They're
talking about sediment, you know, making

00:44:46.364 --> 00:44:51.061
it difficult for their business
operations.

00:44:51.094 --> 00:44:57.162
Is there truth to the argument that
the hes are causing problems for

00:44:57.195 --> 00:45:02.146
people in the lower river and what
might be done about that? Well, we

00:45:02.179 --> 00:45:10.179
could, I mean that um so I think
what's going on with that is that the

00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:14.796
they are in the part of the river.
This is essentially the part of the

00:45:14.829 --> 00:45:19.836
river that has sometimes been
underwater in Lake Mead. So it's the

00:45:19.869 --> 00:45:23.256
transition from the Colorado river to
Lake Mead. So it's the segment of

00:45:23.289 --> 00:45:28.155
the canyon that has the opposite
problem from most of Grand Canyon. Most

00:45:28.188 --> 00:45:31.836
of Grand Canyon is in sediment deficit
because as I said, the dam blocks

00:45:31.869 --> 00:45:38.356
90% of what was entered before the dam
was built. And so it's a condition

00:45:38.389 --> 00:45:42.905
of, of lack of sediment. Well, the
sediment that we do have is going

00:45:42.938 --> 00:45:49.126
downstream and all of it goes to Lake
Mead. And so they're in the, they're

00:45:49.159 --> 00:45:53.727
in the realm of the zone of sediment
deficit. That area is essentially a

00:45:53.760 --> 00:46:01.276
river delta. So it's in a great a
grading system and um all the flows

00:46:01.309 --> 00:46:05.767
transport the sediment downstream. Um
One thing we've seen when we, when

00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:12.037
we look at the years with and without
HFES, it, it doesn't really matter

00:46:12.070 --> 00:46:17.316
whether or not we do have an HFE or
the, the, the an HFE doesn't really

00:46:17.349 --> 00:46:22.577
affect the total amount of sediment
that goes past. Um say Diamond Creek,

00:46:22.610 --> 00:46:27.506
which is our downstream gauging
station, which is um you know, 225 miles

00:46:27.539 --> 00:46:33.365
downstream from these ferry, about 30
or maybe 3040 miles upstream from

00:46:33.398 --> 00:46:37.546
the, from the reach of maybe sediment
accumulation that the, that the wall

00:46:37.579 --> 00:46:42.195
are concerned about, but about the
same amount of sediment goes past that

00:46:42.228 --> 00:46:46.006
point. Whether or not we do an HFE
because what the HFE does, it doesn't,

00:46:46.039 --> 00:46:49.206
it doesn't really change the total
amount of sediment that gets carried

00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:54.365
downstream. It changes the timing of
when that occurs. Um Because the

00:46:54.398 --> 00:46:58.195
Prius deliver a lot of sediment, it's
relatively fine. It accumulates on

00:46:58.228 --> 00:47:02.905
the bed of the river. And then we do
an HFE and that picks up the sediment

00:47:02.938 --> 00:47:07.526
and deposits in sand bars and moves
them downstream and it also coarsens

00:47:07.559 --> 00:47:12.267
the bed of the river at the same time.
So as that sediment is, is, is

00:47:12.300 --> 00:47:15.126
picked up and the high flows, they,
they coarsen the bed of the river. So

00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:21.477
then after an HFE, you get relatively
lower transport rates than before.

00:47:21.510 --> 00:47:25.606
If you don't do an HFE, you still got
all that fine sediment there. But

00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:30.316
then we go into the winter season of
high power plant operations to

00:47:30.349 --> 00:47:35.876
generate electricity. And so those
high fluctuating flows instead, they

00:47:35.909 --> 00:47:41.195
transport the sand downstream. So
whether we do an HFE to move the sand or

00:47:41.228 --> 00:47:44.517
do high power plant operations in the
winter, the sand is going to go

00:47:44.550 --> 00:47:47.537
downstream and it's going to go to
Lake Mead either way. So it's not so

00:47:47.570 --> 00:47:51.727
much a question of the volume that's
going into this reach where they're

00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:56.287
having the navigation issues. It's
the, it's, it's the timing and the

00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:01.557
flows that cause its redistribution.
And so,

00:48:01.590 --> 00:48:06.345
so it doesn't mean that they don't
have that there isn't a problem there.

00:48:06.378 --> 00:48:12.787
And the HFES could have a role in
determining the, or the, the relative

00:48:12.820 --> 00:48:18.445
distribution of that sediment. Um It's
possible that the HFES make it

00:48:18.478 --> 00:48:23.506
better than it would be without the
HFES. Um It could be even worse. Um

00:48:23.539 --> 00:48:29.436
And so that is something we um um
haven't studied in detail down there,

00:48:29.469 --> 00:48:34.557
but it's, it's something that I
actually uh proposed a project in the last

00:48:34.590 --> 00:48:38.756
work plan to work on this issue. But
the budgets were tight and that one

00:48:38.789 --> 00:48:43.095
didn't quite get through. We'll put it
again this time. But um the idea

00:48:43.128 --> 00:48:49.546
there would be to look at at how um
the sediment in that reach, how the

00:48:49.579 --> 00:48:54.425
distribution of the sediment is
affected by different dam operations. Um

00:48:54.458 --> 00:48:58.247
There is a problem there because it is
going to be a zone of sediment just

00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:02.537
like the upstream reaches a zone of
deficit no matter what we do. There is

00:49:02.570 --> 00:49:06.686
a zone of sediment accumulation no
matter what we do. Um And it's not just

00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:13.287
affected by um by dam operations, is
also affected by the fact that it's,

00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:17.807
it's um it's cutting down into the
former Lake Mead Delta. You know, the,

00:49:17.840 --> 00:49:22.635
the lake Mead has now dropped a lot.
And so the river is, is, is, is, is

00:49:22.668 --> 00:49:29.486
in into the uh the uh the the
accumulation, the accumulated sediment. So,

00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:32.155
um

00:49:32.188 --> 00:49:39.416
yeah, it's, it's, it's a difficult
problem um in terms of, of how to,

00:49:39.449 --> 00:49:44.956
whether or not it's even possible to,
to find a, an operation scenario

00:49:44.989 --> 00:49:49.077
that would help create them, uh help
create their, improve their

00:49:49.110 --> 00:49:52.626
navigation channel is really what it's
about. It's, it's tricky, you know

00:49:52.659 --> 00:49:55.916
, these are the things that engineers
deal with on the big rivers where

00:49:55.949 --> 00:49:58.967
they're trying to get barges upstream
and downstream, but they end up

00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:03.376
doing things like building uh building
wing dikes and groins and things

00:50:03.409 --> 00:50:06.497
that, that, that, that concentrate the
stream flow into the center of a

00:50:06.530 --> 00:50:09.925
river channel. But those are big
engineering works, but those are the,

00:50:09.958 --> 00:50:14.077
those are the kinds of things that are
done to deal with those problems. I

00:50:14.110 --> 00:50:18.006
did a river trip through Grand Canyon
last year. My very first one, last

00:50:18.039 --> 00:50:22.747
summer we went all the way to um was
that Hayden ferry or some Pierce

00:50:22.780 --> 00:50:28.635
Pierce ferry? Right? And um it was
rather eerie floating through that

00:50:28.668 --> 00:50:32.486
stretch below Diamond Creek and above
Pearce ferry where you're in size

00:50:32.519 --> 00:50:37.086
down in, in the river beneath these
giant plateaus of sediment that are

00:50:37.119 --> 00:50:43.057
constantly um falling into the river.
And there was at one point when we

00:50:43.090 --> 00:50:46.717
were floating through this stretch of
river and, and the plateau of

00:50:46.750 --> 00:50:53.695
sediment was probably a couple of 100
ft high and a wind, a gust of wind

00:50:53.728 --> 00:50:59.115
set off a collapse of a piece of it.
And, and more and more, it's like a

00:50:59.148 --> 00:51:04.807
uh an avalanche of snow on a steep
mountain slope. It just came pouring

00:51:04.840 --> 00:51:10.452
down and hit the water and sent a, a
blast of dusty water and wind across

00:51:10.485 --> 00:51:14.461
the river right into one of our boats.
It was, it was dangerous and you

00:51:14.494 --> 00:51:19.202
saw that, you were there on one trip
in one year and saw that. And I've,

00:51:19.235 --> 00:51:22.521
when I've been down there, I've seen
that. So that's something that is

00:51:22.554 --> 00:51:28.102
happening constantly. And so uh it's,
it's, it's entirely possible that

00:51:28.135 --> 00:51:32.461
the amount of sediment falling into
the river off of those high cut banks

00:51:32.494 --> 00:51:40.494
from the form that was the bed of
lake. Right? Um, is, is, uh, is an equal

00:51:40.570 --> 00:51:44.195
contributor to the, to the navigation
problem down there. Yeah, we

00:51:44.228 --> 00:51:46.796
actually got stuck at one point. We
couldn't figure out which way to get

00:51:46.829 --> 00:51:49.717
around. It was a very wide river and a
big sand bar. We didn't know

00:51:49.750 --> 00:51:53.166
whether to go or right. We took the
wrong path and we had to drag our, our

00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:56.175
raft and that's the problem that
they're talking about. So it's a

00:51:56.208 --> 00:52:01.405
legitimate, it's a serious problem
that they have. Um It's not going to be

00:52:01.438 --> 00:52:06.896
an easy solution. So, were you part of
the effort to create that

00:52:06.929 --> 00:52:12.756
phenomenal website that US GS has that
shows before and after pictures

00:52:12.789 --> 00:52:17.997
from the high flow experiments,
there's a website that US GS has. Did you

00:52:18.030 --> 00:52:20.836
help to develop that? And can you tell
us a little bit about that? Well,

00:52:20.869 --> 00:52:26.356
thanks. Yeah. No, that's, that's our
website. Um uh I can't take credit

00:52:26.389 --> 00:52:30.416
for doing the technical side, but
that's my project in terms of, of the

00:52:30.449 --> 00:52:34.646
collecting those images and making it
happen, getting them on there.

00:52:34.679 --> 00:52:40.856
That's, that's one of the things that
my project does. And so um where

00:52:40.889 --> 00:52:46.655
that came about was um actually, when
I first started, uh um there's a

00:52:46.688 --> 00:52:50.727
long history of using cameras at, at
our uh monitoring sites that goes

00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:53.635
back to the early days when they were
first studying these sites in the 19

00:52:53.668 --> 00:52:58.486
nineties, the scientists at the time
recognized pretty quickly that they

00:52:58.519 --> 00:53:02.845
were collecting data. You know, even
if they were doing trips, a couple,

00:53:02.878 --> 00:53:05.497
you know, there were years when they
were doing several river trips a few

00:53:05.530 --> 00:53:09.945
months apart. But even with that level
of frequency visiting monitoring

00:53:09.978 --> 00:53:13.345
sites, they recognized a lot was
happening when they weren't there. And so

00:53:13.378 --> 00:53:18.537
they put up at that time, it was um
analog old film cameras, just, just

00:53:18.570 --> 00:53:24.546
handheld uh um small um little point
and shoot film cameras that had an

00:53:24.579 --> 00:53:28.307
interval meer that they could put on
them. That would, I think the most

00:53:28.340 --> 00:53:32.626
they could do is set the interval meer
to take a picture every 24 hours.

00:53:32.659 --> 00:53:37.077
Set it up in a, they put it in a
little animal can with a window and hit

00:53:37.110 --> 00:53:42.477
go whatever time they did it was when
it took the first picture and then

00:53:42.510 --> 00:53:47.206
24 hours thereafter till the role of
film was gone. So they'd at least get

00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:52.756
something, they'd maybe they, they'd
get uh 24 days or if they had a 36

00:53:52.789 --> 00:53:57.017
days worth of, of, of, of images from
the site. And they, they kept those

00:53:57.050 --> 00:54:03.316
going on and off from in the 19
nineties and two thousands. And then when

00:54:03.349 --> 00:54:09.865
I started in 2008, uh a colleague in
um uh a different uh US TS branch

00:54:09.898 --> 00:54:14.497
here had developed a uh a digital
system and we started putting those in,

00:54:14.530 --> 00:54:21.267
in uh in 2008 for the 2008 high flow
experiment. And uh they were great.

00:54:21.300 --> 00:54:26.356
Uh we're very reliable. So we decided
to um put them at every all of our

00:54:26.389 --> 00:54:30.747
monitoring sites. So you get hundreds
and hundreds of pictures. So between

00:54:30.780 --> 00:54:36.416
2008 and 2012 is when we expanded to
put, getting one at every one of our

00:54:36.449 --> 00:54:41.526
sites and we program them to take um
actually where they're taking five

00:54:41.559 --> 00:54:46.267
pictures a day because we want to get
um well, because memory card space

00:54:46.300 --> 00:54:51.517
now is, is is cheap. So why not take
enough pictures? And then by doing

00:54:51.550 --> 00:54:55.997
that, we get a range of flows and
lighting conditions. So then we can pick

00:54:56.030 --> 00:55:00.106
from the photos it takes which ones
have the best combination of of river

00:55:00.139 --> 00:55:04.865
flow level and lighting. And then we
pick the one from those. We pick some

00:55:04.898 --> 00:55:10.445
and put on the website for seeing what
the HFES do. Our younger readers

00:55:10.478 --> 00:55:15.365
are probably gonna want to know what
we mean by roll of film.

00:55:15.398 --> 00:55:18.986
Um How could somebody find that uh
what's the easiest way for somebody to

00:55:19.019 --> 00:55:22.126
find that website? Because it really
is remarkable. You can look at these

00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:26.146
different beaches and, and you just
get a picture before the high flow

00:55:26.179 --> 00:55:31.106
experiment and, and then during and
then after and really see how those

00:55:31.139 --> 00:55:35.296
flows alter uh the morphology of the
river. Yeah, it's just on our website

00:55:35.329 --> 00:55:42.115
, www.gcmrc.gov/sandbar/sandbar.

00:55:42.148 --> 00:55:45.916
Ok. It's a redirect now. I don't think
it's, that's the actual site

00:55:45.949 --> 00:55:49.046
they've changed. The government has
kicked us around a bit in terms of how

00:55:49.079 --> 00:55:52.845
our websites are set up. But that
still works. Yeah. I'd like to get a

00:55:52.878 --> 00:55:56.557
permanent link for that, um, to link
to our website because that's

00:55:56.590 --> 00:56:00.776
something that I dreamed of doing
because I love Repot Gray. It's one of

00:56:00.809 --> 00:56:07.026
my most interesting ways of
documenting change over time is Repot. My

00:56:07.059 --> 00:56:11.997
colleague at a Su Mark Klett did some
of the best and most interesting

00:56:12.030 --> 00:56:17.126
repot work at on the Grand Canyon
decades ago. And uh when I saw what you

00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:20.517
guys had done, I thought, OK. Well, I
don't have to do that now. It's

00:56:20.550 --> 00:56:24.017
really a remarkable resource. So thank
you for putting it together. And uh

00:56:24.050 --> 00:56:28.456
you know, thanks for that. And um we
also, in addition to just those

00:56:28.489 --> 00:56:32.276
paired or, or the, the time series
photos at each site, we also have a

00:56:32.309 --> 00:56:37.135
site um uh kind of a collaborative
effort with the Grand Canyon River

00:56:37.168 --> 00:56:42.365
Guides Association. So they started a
program back. I think they started

00:56:42.398 --> 00:56:47.456
it with the 1996 controlled flood and
they call it the adopt a beach

00:56:47.489 --> 00:56:52.695
program. And this is where um river
Guides volunteer to take a camera and

00:56:52.728 --> 00:56:58.227
take repeat pictures of, of, of their
favorite campsite or beach and they

00:56:58.260 --> 00:57:01.467
do it throughout the season. And then
we put those, uh we also put those

00:57:01.500 --> 00:57:04.497
photos on the website. They're not,
they're not like our remote cameras

00:57:04.530 --> 00:57:08.195
are fixed location. So they're perfect
matches from one to the next. These

00:57:08.228 --> 00:57:11.865
are more, you know, the guy gets,
picks a spot and takes a photo there and

00:57:11.898 --> 00:57:15.816
kind of approximate that spot's
underwater. So, yeah, so they, but they

00:57:15.849 --> 00:57:19.217
show the same sites and so that, that,
that's also on our website to look

00:57:19.250 --> 00:57:27.250
at. Great, great. Um All right. Well,
um again, historians like to think

00:57:28.780 --> 00:57:34.967
about and evaluate change over time.
And um so that's what I want to turn

00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:40.227
to for a minute and ask you to reflect
on how sediment research has

00:57:40.260 --> 00:57:44.106
changed over time. You've talked about
what we do now and how we've

00:57:44.139 --> 00:57:48.646
perfected those processes to better
predict outcomes. But can you give us

00:57:48.679 --> 00:57:52.727
a little historical sense if you can
about, you know, the questions we

00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:57.017
were asking early on versus the
questions we're asking today and what

00:57:57.050 --> 00:58:00.827
we've learned. Um

00:58:00.860 --> 00:58:03.865
But I think what we've,

00:58:03.898 --> 00:58:08.655
lot of the questions are similar. Um
But what I think we've learned about

00:58:08.688 --> 00:58:16.115
, um you know, like I said, the, the,
the, the basics of the, the sandbar

00:58:16.148 --> 00:58:21.356
management on one level are pretty
simple in the sense of it's the, it's,

00:58:21.389 --> 00:58:26.925
it's, it's needing the flows to build
a sandbar and then it's what's the

00:58:26.958 --> 00:58:32.727
supply condition. So a big part of the
initial focus was guessing what the

00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:37.385
supply condition was. What we do now
is we actually measure it and we're

00:58:37.418 --> 00:58:42.396
setting ourselves up to actually know
what the supply condition is. So

00:58:42.429 --> 00:58:46.977
it's kind of the, the, the scientists
working on this. Um When we first

00:58:47.010 --> 00:58:50.586
started, they recognized what the most
important thing was and that is how

00:58:50.619 --> 00:58:55.146
much sand is there and, and then what
does it take to use it to, to build

00:58:55.179 --> 00:59:00.026
sand bars and keep it there? But what
we do now is we, but they had to

00:59:00.059 --> 00:59:06.615
rely on extremely sparse measurements
and um essentially very simple

00:59:06.648 --> 00:59:10.345
modeling prediction guesses of what
the supply conditions were and their,

00:59:10.378 --> 00:59:14.856
their predictions vary greatly from
the sand, you know, sand, the sand is

00:59:14.889 --> 00:59:17.756
just accumulating on the bed of the
river and we just need to run floods

00:59:17.789 --> 00:59:22.436
and we'll be fine um to under to them,
there is then going the opposite

00:59:22.469 --> 00:59:27.037
direction saying no, no, no, there's a
downward spiral and there's almost

00:59:27.070 --> 00:59:31.905
no sand left and the system is about
to be completely reamed out. And I

00:59:31.938 --> 00:59:35.365
think what we've learned now is that
there's a potential, at least under

00:59:35.398 --> 00:59:41.807
the conditions we've seen. So by, by
going from the or implementing this

00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:46.827
um this high flow protocol period
where we do the repeat high flows. We

00:59:46.860 --> 00:59:51.865
got pretty lucky in, in the timing of
things and we'll see how luck

00:59:51.898 --> 00:59:57.166
carries us into the future. But the
luck we had is that since 2012, when

00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:03.037
this started, we have had most years
with good amounts of sand inputs from

01:00:03.070 --> 01:00:10.986
the Pria River um average or above and
we have had a approximately average

01:00:11.019 --> 01:00:15.905
dam release volumes. So those two
things are the two key ingredients to

01:00:15.938 --> 01:00:20.736
what happens to the sand supply you
get. If dam release volumes are high,

01:00:20.769 --> 01:00:25.155
we get a lot of export. And that
happened one that happened in 2011. But

01:00:25.188 --> 01:00:32.646
since 2011, the release volumes have
been at about an average amount that

01:00:32.679 --> 01:00:36.836
has allowed sand to either be
maintained in the system or accumulate. So

01:00:36.869 --> 01:00:39.827
what I think we've really learned is
that and, and now that we can

01:00:39.860 --> 01:00:44.865
actually measure the sand budget and
we measure it buyer uh measurements

01:00:44.898 --> 01:00:49.695
of sand transport in the river and we
measure it by um actually going out

01:00:49.728 --> 01:00:54.037
and mapping the bed of the river and
then repeating that map of the bed of

01:00:54.070 --> 01:00:58.026
the river at a second point in time
and looking at the difference and

01:00:58.059 --> 01:01:02.796
seeing how much has the bed of the
river changed and has this the sand

01:01:02.829 --> 01:01:07.626
storage supply in the bed of the river
changed? And

01:01:07.659 --> 01:01:14.807
so when uh 2030 years ago, they were
kind of assuming or guessing what the

01:01:14.840 --> 01:01:20.227
sand storage would do when we had a
flood or under different scenarios of

01:01:20.260 --> 01:01:25.155
annual volumes and, and tribu inputs.
We're now in a position to actually

01:01:25.188 --> 01:01:31.986
measure what the bed of the river does
and see how that plays out. Um And

01:01:32.019 --> 01:01:37.345
what we've seen is that it's in an
approximate balance under these

01:01:37.378 --> 01:01:43.135
conditions. So I think the there was a
big, you know that, I mean, you you

01:01:43.168 --> 01:01:48.236
asked about major turning points, I
think, you know that 96 flood was and

01:01:48.269 --> 01:01:53.115
what led up to it was one major
turning point. I think the next one was

01:01:53.148 --> 01:02:00.037
the recognition. And then the uh the
implementation of the idea of doing

01:02:00.070 --> 01:02:04.057
repeat high flows, which happened with
the, the HFE protocol, which was

01:02:04.090 --> 01:02:09.356
implemented in 2012. So the idea that
instead of these high flows being,

01:02:09.389 --> 01:02:14.787
being ex being one off experiments
that we did once in a while, it was

01:02:14.820 --> 01:02:21.836
turned into a uh uh an experiment that
involved doing it repeatedly year

01:02:21.869 --> 01:02:28.925
after year. And they called it a HFE
high flow experiment protocol. Um And

01:02:28.958 --> 01:02:33.936
so it's not uh but the experiment
isn't what each HFE does. The experiment

01:02:33.969 --> 01:02:39.577
is what happens if we do this for 10
or 20 years. And so that's what we're

01:02:39.610 --> 01:02:43.646
in the middle of. And at this point.
And what I think we're learning is

01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:49.227
that if the conditions are right, it
basically works. Um But it's kind of

01:02:49.260 --> 01:02:55.695
a teeter totter balance of right now,
we're uh in this position where the

01:02:55.728 --> 01:03:00.686
inputs and the flow volumes have
allowed it to work. It almost exactly as

01:03:00.719 --> 01:03:08.719
intended as designed. Um And so what
the future holds is really, it, it's

01:03:09.260 --> 01:03:15.276
almost you get different answers. And
I think it's more of a, um, almost a

01:03:15.309 --> 01:03:21.747
personal or the answer you get might
reflect more on that person's

01:03:21.780 --> 01:03:27.166
disposition than on any basis. And
because somebody who tends to be a

01:03:27.199 --> 01:03:31.865
little bit of a pessimist will say,
look, we're, we're hinging this all on

01:03:31.898 --> 01:03:37.626
continued average inputs and above
average inputs and, uh, average or

01:03:37.659 --> 01:03:42.287
below dam releases. Well, that's not
likely. So, the system is doomed is

01:03:42.320 --> 01:03:46.405
one perspective because how can it,
how can we have above average inputs

01:03:46.438 --> 01:03:51.865
and below average dam releases? Um
The, the flip side is, well, it's

01:03:51.898 --> 01:03:56.905
worked for close to 10 years now. And
so maybe, maybe these are the

01:03:56.938 --> 01:04:01.997
average conditions that we're gonna
have. Um So really the, and so that

01:04:02.030 --> 01:04:05.756
that's kind of the, the big mystery
is, it's what will happen with, you

01:04:05.789 --> 01:04:11.345
know, we've got expectations of what,
what's the uh the idea that uh that

01:04:11.378 --> 01:04:16.365
um uh flows will be average or below
average might not be that ridiculous

01:04:16.398 --> 01:04:22.615
because predictions for the basin are
for low runoff with climate change.

01:04:22.648 --> 01:04:29.486
But um uh what else scientifically is?
Let's see, is there anything else

01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:34.416
that we need to know? I mean, you
sound, it was really interesting to hear

01:04:34.449 --> 01:04:38.396
you say at the very beginning when
people start proposing these high flow

01:04:38.429 --> 01:04:43.186
um events experiments, um they were
guessing at what the results might be

01:04:43.219 --> 01:04:48.445
and didn't have the data to actually
say here's the likely outcome based

01:04:48.478 --> 01:04:51.396
on what we've measured before. So you
have to spend years and years and

01:04:51.429 --> 01:04:56.566
years advocating for something that
was a guess and then monitoring the

01:04:56.599 --> 01:05:00.706
outcomes to refine your predictions
and models to the point where now

01:05:00.739 --> 01:05:05.967
you're saying, after maybe I don't
know, what is this uh 20 years of

01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:10.695
experiments? Now, you're saying the
model is pretty robust. Um It has only

01:05:10.728 --> 01:05:15.046
about 15% error in it for the most
part. It's been working well for 10

01:05:15.079 --> 01:05:18.706
years and we get the outcome we're
looking for every time we do this

01:05:18.739 --> 01:05:23.717
because we've been able to refine what
we know and how to manage these

01:05:23.750 --> 01:05:27.626
things. That's pretty great. So
somebody might say, well, have we learned

01:05:27.659 --> 01:05:31.287
everything we need to learn?

01:05:31.320 --> 01:05:35.827
Have we learned everything we need to
learn? Can we stop studying sediment

01:05:35.860 --> 01:05:39.217
now and move on to something else? You
know, it depends on what they, what

01:05:39.250 --> 01:05:44.405
their next, what their objective is
really. I mean, if we're comfortable

01:05:44.438 --> 01:05:48.997
with, if we're comfortable with
everything as they are and are confident

01:05:49.030 --> 01:05:55.816
in and what the per river is gonna do
in the future or what the um um

01:05:55.849 --> 01:06:01.077
river flows would be that, that might
be an argument. Um I don't, you know

01:06:01.110 --> 01:06:04.517
, I mean, what part of what the
program is interested in is, is monitoring

01:06:04.550 --> 01:06:10.655
, you know, the results into the
future Grand Canyon monitoring and

01:06:10.688 --> 01:06:14.477
research. So, so there's that aspect
of it, it's like it's keeping track

01:06:14.510 --> 01:06:18.256
of what the system is doing and, and
continuing to verify that things are

01:06:18.289 --> 01:06:25.166
happening. Um Are there any questions
or knowledge gaps in, in sediment

01:06:25.199 --> 01:06:29.767
flow that you wish we could throw some
money at to understand better? Well

01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:37.800
, there is uh probably um uh the, the
areas that we are working in on that.

01:06:41.958 --> 01:06:43.945
 Are

01:06:43.978 --> 01:06:48.486
you mentioned the issue of, of
navigation downstream? So that's one area

01:06:48.519 --> 01:06:53.186
where there is a kind of a resource
or, or a, or a, I guess a management

01:06:53.219 --> 01:06:55.945
problem or issue that they're
interested in that we don't really

01:06:55.978 --> 01:07:01.126
understand or, and so that would be an
area of research to do, to, to

01:07:01.159 --> 01:07:04.467
learn something new about how the
system is working. That that might be of

01:07:04.500 --> 01:07:11.727
interest. Um in terms of the um the
sand bars themselves. Uh One thing

01:07:11.760 --> 01:07:15.736
we've been looking at and continue to
look at is interactions between the

01:07:15.769 --> 01:07:21.195
sand bars and vegetation. So the role
that, that different vegetation

01:07:21.228 --> 01:07:28.776
types play in either uh essentially
accelerating sandbar deposition or, or

01:07:28.809 --> 01:07:35.356
sandbar stabilization. So if they um
and that could be applied towards

01:07:35.389 --> 01:07:40.086
management, if they want to start
removing vegetation or changing the

01:07:40.119 --> 01:07:44.896
vegetation community in some way to
improve the or change the way the

01:07:44.929 --> 01:07:49.267
sandbars look or change how people can
use the sandbars is, is one thing.

01:07:49.300 --> 01:07:55.115
Um The other thing that's come up
that's of interest is uh and is, I guess

01:07:55.148 --> 01:07:59.206
, and there would maybe be in the
realm of, of fine tuning how the HFES

01:07:59.239 --> 01:08:05.655
work is, is whether we can uh by using
HFES of different magnitudes, we

01:08:05.688 --> 01:08:11.077
can cause deposition to occur in
different places. And that's uh um or

01:08:11.110 --> 01:08:14.316
whether by changing the shape of the
HFE hydro graphs, if you look, if you

01:08:14.349 --> 01:08:19.675
go to our website and look at the HFE
um hydro graphs, the, the flow

01:08:19.708 --> 01:08:22.967
releases from the dam, they all have a
pretty similar shape where the

01:08:23.000 --> 01:08:27.857
water goes straight up. You know, they
increase the releases very quickly.

01:08:27.890 --> 01:08:31.786
It's flat at the peak of the HFE and
then they turn it off and it's

01:08:31.819 --> 01:08:37.246
essentially straight down. And um so
there's questions about whether if we

01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:42.196
had different uh rates of, of like
down ramp rates, so lowered the

01:08:42.229 --> 01:08:47.015
releases slower, could we have bars
that had a different shape? So some of

01:08:47.048 --> 01:08:50.385
the river guys are interested in bars
that might have a, a lower slope or

01:08:50.418 --> 01:08:57.317
something like that. Um Was another
thing um The other thing that there uh

01:08:57.350 --> 01:09:03.986
is, is in terms of um the

01:09:04.019 --> 01:09:09.535
um scientifically, there's quite a,
quite a bit we could still understand

01:09:09.568 --> 01:09:14.115
about. There are um I think you
mentioned earlier that, you know, there,

01:09:14.148 --> 01:09:19.965
there, the hfes don't cause every
sandbar to respond the same. So there

01:09:19.998 --> 01:09:23.215
are some bars there, there are some
bars that are road with hfes or under

01:09:23.248 --> 01:09:28.885
different conditions while some build
and we don't, we still don't um

01:09:28.918 --> 01:09:31.765
understand exactly why that is for
some science, we know it has something

01:09:31.798 --> 01:09:35.616
to do with the channel conditions
probably, or, or the hydraulics being

01:09:35.649 --> 01:09:38.916
different at different sites. And so
scientifically, that's something

01:09:38.949 --> 01:09:44.296
we're looking at and trying to explain
why some eddies, some sandbar areas

01:09:44.329 --> 01:09:48.717
, some eddies where the sandbars
occur, behave differently than others. Um

01:09:48.750 --> 01:09:52.687
And I think that can help with
management. I think, uh it's, you know, I

01:09:52.720 --> 01:09:57.737
think it's, it, it's at uh a finer
level than then just. Ok, we've got the

01:09:57.770 --> 01:10:01.357
HP protocol that generally build sand
bars. Now, we're gonna look at how

01:10:01.390 --> 01:10:06.845
we can optimize it or, or what we
could do to improve more broadly

01:10:06.878 --> 01:10:09.666
improved conditions. So those are some
of the other things we're looking

01:10:09.699 --> 01:10:16.226
at. Um but when it comes to um we're,
we're gonna be starting working on

01:10:16.259 --> 01:10:20.687
our writing up our new next three year
work plan in the next few months

01:10:20.720 --> 01:10:25.576
here. And, and so our project will,
you know, we've got our, our regular

01:10:25.609 --> 01:10:30.487
sandbar monitoring which is seeing
what each HFE does and what the long

01:10:30.520 --> 01:10:33.916
term trends are at the sandbar
monitoring sites. And that involves

01:10:33.949 --> 01:10:40.456
surveying the sites and collecting
those photos. So that um is primarily a

01:10:40.489 --> 01:10:44.796
monitoring effort. And then we do
these repeat maps of the river bed,

01:10:44.829 --> 01:10:49.876
which is, you know, OK, over the long
terms, are we maintaining the sand,

01:10:49.909 --> 01:10:55.156
the sand mass balance and that is
contributing to really determining

01:10:55.189 --> 01:10:59.647
whether or not uh what is, what are
the chances that they can keep doing

01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:07.680
this? Um Using the HFE protocol um
successfully or whether they should be

01:11:08.609 --> 01:11:12.647
doing floods more frequently. You
know, if sands accumulating and things

01:11:12.680 --> 01:11:17.506
of that, it's possible to show, well,
you actually have plenty of degrees

01:11:17.539 --> 01:11:21.456
of freedom here and you could be doing
floods more liberally or you should

01:11:21.489 --> 01:11:27.416
hold back because the, the sand is,
is, is, is, is diminishing, which

01:11:27.449 --> 01:11:31.555
means not just holding back on HFES,
but considering what other operations

01:11:31.588 --> 01:11:35.885
might be needed to maintain sand
storage, if that's what they want to do.

01:11:35.918 --> 01:11:38.737
I'm glad you mentioned that riverbed
mapping. That's one of the things

01:11:38.770 --> 01:11:44.506
that uh Jen and I um found when
looking at some of your uh previous uh

01:11:44.539 --> 01:11:52.539
published research. Um Could you talk
briefly about how you map the, you

01:11:53.600 --> 01:11:57.067
know, subsurface of the water, the
river bed itself, which is, you know,

01:11:57.100 --> 01:12:01.147
several feet to 20 or 30 ft below the
surface. You can't see it when

01:12:01.180 --> 01:12:04.666
you're floating down the river, you
can't see the river bed for the most

01:12:04.699 --> 01:12:10.607
part. Um But we need to know how much
sediment is down there and, and

01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:16.357
where it's deposited. And so you've
helped to sort of innovate ways of

01:12:16.390 --> 01:12:20.055
mapping the sediment. And you said
earlier in our interview that it's like

01:12:20.088 --> 01:12:24.226
80% or more of the sediment in the
river is underwater in the river

01:12:24.259 --> 01:12:30.467
channel, 80 to 90% of the sediment
that's moved by the, I mean, it takes

01:12:30.500 --> 01:12:33.055
the water to move it. So the sediment
that the water is moving is

01:12:33.088 --> 01:12:38.006
underwater by definition. And so it's
only that little bit between, you

01:12:38.039 --> 01:12:42.476
know, if you happen to be on the river
when it's flowing at 10,000 cubic

01:12:42.509 --> 01:12:46.317
feet per second, it's only that bit
between that where the water, the

01:12:46.350 --> 01:12:50.765
river gets at 10,000 and up to maybe
the high flow stage of 35 to 40,000.

01:12:50.798 --> 01:12:54.326
So there's, there's that window there
of where the sediment is deposited

01:12:54.359 --> 01:12:59.217
by the high flows. But that's a small
slice of the sand in the system that

01:12:59.250 --> 01:13:02.857
most of the sediment is in. Um There's
deep pools in the center of the

01:13:02.890 --> 01:13:07.027
channel and then there's deep pools in
the eddies, the the the big kind of

01:13:07.060 --> 01:13:11.166
pools of sediment. Yeah, big pools of
sediment there. And, and so we map

01:13:11.199 --> 01:13:17.476
those um and people started doing it
uh as soon as the technology became

01:13:17.509 --> 01:13:22.506
available using sonar. So we use uh
sonar instruments. So those are

01:13:22.539 --> 01:13:27.536
acoustic instruments. They generate a
ping, a pulse of sound that uh is

01:13:27.569 --> 01:13:32.286
generated by an instrument that's in
the water that we hang off, you know

01:13:32.319 --> 01:13:38.187
, suspend from the front of the boat
um into the river. And um it sends a

01:13:38.220 --> 01:13:43.237
ping down that, that sound bounces off
the bed of the river, comes back to

01:13:43.270 --> 01:13:48.456
the instrument and the instrument
knows when it sent it and it measures

01:13:48.489 --> 01:13:52.967
the time it took for it to travel and
calculates the distance and uses

01:13:53.000 --> 01:13:57.987
that to come up with uh measurements
of depth. But the instruments are

01:13:58.020 --> 01:14:01.126
actually sophisticated enough that
doesn't send down one ping in one beam

01:14:01.159 --> 01:14:07.666
, it sends down up to, I think around
our instrument does 512 beams in a

01:14:07.699 --> 01:14:13.345
swath. So just by driving down the
center of the channel, you can actually

01:14:13.378 --> 01:14:19.635
measure depth um across a large
portion of the river bed as you're driving.

01:14:19.668 --> 01:14:24.826
So in, in kind of a swath as you drive
down the channel, so we can drive

01:14:24.859 --> 01:14:29.357
these boats with these uh these uh
multibeam sonar instruments up and down

01:14:29.390 --> 01:14:33.515
the channel in a section of river and
then make a topographic, essentially

01:14:33.548 --> 01:14:37.746
a topographic map. But it's a bath
metric map of the bed of the river. And

01:14:37.779 --> 01:14:41.595
are those available on the web
somewhere? Can somebody go and look at

01:14:41.628 --> 01:14:48.046
those maps? We have two different
ways. We have a map viewer on our

01:14:48.079 --> 01:14:51.925
website that kind have to look around
for it. But it's on the, the GCR CY

01:14:51.958 --> 01:14:58.237
website. Um that has the one for right
now. I think the only one that's on

01:14:58.270 --> 01:15:02.656
there is from le ferry to or from the
dam to Lee's ferry. But that's

01:15:02.689 --> 01:15:06.687
something you can toggle around and
view. And then we've got publications

01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:12.036
with the, you can download the maps um
for other segments of the river. So

01:15:12.069 --> 01:15:16.357
that's an example of a critical
resource that we didn't know anything

01:15:16.390 --> 01:15:23.156
about because we couldn't see it and
hadn't measured it and you came up

01:15:23.189 --> 01:15:28.187
with a proposal to fund a project to
map that sediment and now you're

01:15:28.220 --> 01:15:31.425
monitoring how it changes over time so
that you can be in a better

01:15:31.458 --> 01:15:38.147
position to determine the effects of
different flow levels. Yeah. No,

01:15:38.180 --> 01:15:42.576
that's the idea that's how science
works. So that's how it works. And, and

01:15:42.609 --> 01:15:49.687
so back in uh uh when, when in the
early period where they, they had a

01:15:49.720 --> 01:15:56.515
need for a stream flow model uh to
predict um just water surface

01:15:56.548 --> 01:16:01.027
elevations at different flows
throughout the canyon. And so they did that

01:16:01.060 --> 01:16:05.226
by um they did a river trip in the 19
eighties where they measured a

01:16:05.259 --> 01:16:11.496
channel cross section every mile or
two and use that to develop the stream

01:16:11.529 --> 01:16:15.116
flow model which is very coarse. And
then the rest of it, they had to,

01:16:15.149 --> 01:16:18.286
they had to interpolate between those
cross sections and make up what the

01:16:18.319 --> 01:16:21.116
bed of the river looked like. But so
now what we've done is collected

01:16:21.149 --> 01:16:24.237
enough data that they can do a model
based on real measurements of what

01:16:24.270 --> 01:16:29.595
the river bed is so scientifically,
that's, that's another next step is is

01:16:29.628 --> 01:16:34.226
developing models for stream flow for
the, based on our measured channel

01:16:34.259 --> 01:16:40.496
geometry. Was the funding for that
river bed mapping. Did it come from the

01:16:40.529 --> 01:16:44.616
Glen Kenny Dam Adaptive Management
Program or was this some other grant or

01:16:44.649 --> 01:16:50.027
independent? It's all from the adapt
management. Um Do you have any sense

01:16:50.060 --> 01:16:54.635
of what percentage of the research
that's funded here at GCMRC comes from

01:16:54.668 --> 01:16:58.217
the Adaptive Management program.

01:16:58.250 --> 01:17:04.467
A small fraction or a half or a
majority. Any idea. No, all of it. All of

01:17:04.500 --> 01:17:07.626
your, well, you said you have several
other, I have a couple other

01:17:07.659 --> 01:17:13.805
problems, other grants. But when you
talk GCMRC, I'm thinking, um, so I,

01:17:13.838 --> 01:17:19.717
I'd say a a and the non Grand Canyon
work has been relatively recent and

01:17:19.750 --> 01:17:25.357
is only a few of us. Um You know, for
myself, it's, you know, probably

01:17:25.390 --> 01:17:30.336
I've had maybe a couple of years where
it's been, maybe I've had maybe up

01:17:30.369 --> 01:17:35.286
to 25 or 30% non Grand Canyon work.
Now, I'm back to probably more like

01:17:35.319 --> 01:17:40.885
90% Grand Canyon work. So Grand Canyon
work funded by, by the management

01:17:40.918 --> 01:17:47.576
program. And so, um and I think, and
there are most of the people here are

01:17:47.609 --> 01:17:52.666
100% on the, on the Adaptive
Management Program. So then that is at the

01:17:52.699 --> 01:17:57.357
center as a whole, it's probably on,
you know, 90 95% of that management

01:17:57.390 --> 01:18:01.737
program that's very significant. So
with that as a background, um stepping

01:18:01.770 --> 01:18:07.015
back a little bit again away from the
specific research. Um How well do

01:18:07.048 --> 01:18:15.048
you think the effort to link the
research done here at GCMRC with decision

01:18:15.560 --> 01:18:21.796
making policy decisions and dam
operation decisions? That's the goal is to

01:18:21.829 --> 01:18:26.946
have science to support decision
making, but sometimes it's difficult to

01:18:26.979 --> 01:18:32.345
make that connection. So just you
know, tell us what you think about that

01:18:32.378 --> 01:18:36.567
process. How has it gone? Has it
changed much over time? Is it uh

01:18:36.600 --> 01:18:40.717
fulfilling or frustrating?

01:18:40.750 --> 01:18:47.406
Um I think it's, I mean, from my
perspective, I think it's, I think it

01:18:47.439 --> 01:18:54.996
functions pretty well. Um We have a
reasonable dialogue with the

01:18:55.029 --> 01:18:59.527
stakeholders. Um We,

01:18:59.560 --> 01:19:06.546
uh I think, you know, I think it does
vary depending on who you talk to

01:19:06.579 --> 01:19:13.756
and things have cycles. But from my
perspective, the system, the, the the

01:19:13.789 --> 01:19:19.166
setup, uh it depends on how you

01:19:19.199 --> 01:19:23.095
um see the objectives. But I think
there's probably a good balance. I

01:19:23.128 --> 01:19:27.467
don't know if anybody's perfectly
happy with it, but I think most people

01:19:27.500 --> 01:19:34.726
feel that it's, it's accomplishing
what it was meant to. Um I think that

01:19:34.759 --> 01:19:37.826
uh

01:19:37.859 --> 01:19:43.647
I'm trying to think, you know, I mean,
I'm pretty proud of how the

01:19:43.680 --> 01:19:47.206
sediment program has worked in the
sense that we've been able to. And, you

01:19:47.239 --> 01:19:50.357
know, this, a lot of these
contributions came from the, the work that was

01:19:50.390 --> 01:19:53.406
done before I came here in terms of
just setting up the idea of, of doing

01:19:53.439 --> 01:19:59.006
the, the, the, the, the, the high
flows and um and the way we do the

01:19:59.039 --> 01:20:02.397
monitoring and have the, the
monitoring set up. But I think it's a pretty

01:20:02.430 --> 01:20:08.765
good example of how, how both some
basic science, but a lot of applied

01:20:08.798 --> 01:20:12.845
science has been directed directly
towards management problems and it's

01:20:12.878 --> 01:20:17.425
been used to guide it and and with,
with, with, with quite a bit of back

01:20:17.458 --> 01:20:24.067
and forth in terms of, of, of doing
experiments and then, um, uh, uh,

01:20:24.100 --> 01:20:28.706
scientists, you know, writing up
publications on what happened and then

01:20:28.739 --> 01:20:32.487
the managers doing something
different. I mean, the, the, the response

01:20:32.520 --> 01:20:36.467
isn't, I was, immediately, isn't, I
was immediate and it takes time, you

01:20:36.500 --> 01:20:41.357
know, the doing the, the HFE protocol
document. I mean, if people started

01:20:41.390 --> 01:20:45.717
saying, well, we need to do high flows
more frequently than just having,

01:20:45.750 --> 01:20:50.406
you know, every, what would, what
would it have been, you know, almost

01:20:50.439 --> 01:20:56.706
eight years between them or something.
Um And that discussion started

01:20:56.739 --> 01:21:01.425
immediately, was sort of going on when
I started in 2008 and it took until

01:21:01.458 --> 01:21:08.956
2012 for that to be implemented, but
it did happen. And so I think there's

01:21:08.989 --> 01:21:12.416
frustration with now that they've
implemented the, the newest, the latest

01:21:12.449 --> 01:21:15.925
version of management, the long term
experiment and management plan, they

01:21:15.958 --> 01:21:21.036
call it the L temp which sets the
operating regime. I think, you know,

01:21:21.069 --> 01:21:24.956
there's, there's uh one of the things
that with the, with the high flow

01:21:24.989 --> 01:21:28.726
protocol has a little bit of a, I
don't know, problem, an issue right now

01:21:28.759 --> 01:21:33.765
is that there's a kind of a growing
interest in having high flows occur in

01:21:33.798 --> 01:21:38.916
the spring. And the high flow protocol
is all about maximizing the use of

01:21:38.949 --> 01:21:42.496
the Pria River to do things in the
fall because the Pria River contributes

01:21:42.529 --> 01:21:48.116
sediment in the late summer. Um, and
it makes sense in terms of

01:21:48.149 --> 01:21:53.647
capitalizing on those Pria sand inputs
to do uh, the high flows in the

01:21:53.680 --> 01:22:01.680
fall. And that at the time, the
protocol was written, spring high flows

01:22:01.869 --> 01:22:08.777
were, uh, um, the, the biologists were
recommending, recommending against

01:22:08.810 --> 01:22:13.206
spring high flows because of a
perceived impact on the, on the trout in

01:22:13.239 --> 01:22:18.717
the chub. And, you know, the, the fish
aren't my area of expertise. But

01:22:18.750 --> 01:22:22.156
you know, the science there at the
time was the spring high flows were

01:22:22.189 --> 01:22:25.635
stimulating the trout population
causing the trout population to increase.

01:22:25.668 --> 01:22:30.256
And, and too many trout was a bit of a
threat to the chub because they

01:22:30.289 --> 01:22:34.126
might start preying on the chub or
competing with the chub and cause the

01:22:34.159 --> 01:22:39.277
chubb population to decline. And so
spring high flows were the idea was we

01:22:39.310 --> 01:22:44.187
should avoid those. And so it all fit
together for this, this high flow

01:22:44.220 --> 01:22:48.567
protocol focused on the, uh, the fall.
The five flow protocol does allow

01:22:48.600 --> 01:22:52.385
for spring high flows, but it requires
the sediment trigger in the spring

01:22:52.418 --> 01:22:56.305
which are unlikely to occur. And so
they haven't occurred, there hasn't

01:22:56.338 --> 01:23:01.357
been any sediment trigger, triggered
spring high flows. And so there is

01:23:01.390 --> 01:23:04.925
some frustration now because, well,
now the idea is that, well, maybe a

01:23:04.958 --> 01:23:08.425
spring high flow actually would be
good for the biology. There's less

01:23:08.458 --> 01:23:13.326
concern about the trout chub
interaction, I think. But nevertheless, there

01:23:13.359 --> 01:23:17.687
is interest in spring high flows. But,
but we're in this little bit of a

01:23:17.720 --> 01:23:24.546
uh a trap where the protocol makes
them happen in the fall. Um So there's

01:23:24.579 --> 01:23:27.586
some frustration with that in terms of
how the system is working, how the

01:23:27.619 --> 01:23:30.857
adapt management program has worked.
And, and there's some idea that, well

01:23:30.890 --> 01:23:36.376
, the there should be uh some
flexibility to adjust how that works to make

01:23:36.409 --> 01:23:40.456
a high flow more likely to occur in
the spring. And I think that's

01:23:40.489 --> 01:23:44.305
probably gonna happen, but, you know,
we're kind of working through that

01:23:44.338 --> 01:23:46.425
process.

01:23:46.458 --> 01:23:51.126
And so that, I mean, and that's
another reason why where the continued

01:23:51.159 --> 01:23:54.925
interaction and involvement is
important because these things, you know,

01:23:54.958 --> 01:23:59.866
the learning keeps changing a little
bit and ideas evolve and we've got to

01:23:59.899 --> 01:24:06.015
adjust. Are there good reasons that
things take so much time? You're

01:24:06.048 --> 01:24:10.027
saying one of the frustrations is how
long it took to get the um high flow

01:24:10.060 --> 01:24:16.967
, the HFE protocol in place for an
annual event. Um Should people

01:24:17.000 --> 01:24:22.326
interpret that as you know, the
typical problem of a bureaucracy or, or

01:24:22.359 --> 01:24:26.925
can we, you know, shine a better light
on that and say, well, that's how

01:24:26.958 --> 01:24:34.397
long it took us to do the groundwork
and come to a consensus and know what

01:24:34.430 --> 01:24:37.586
we were doing was the right thing to
do. What, what's your feeling about

01:24:37.619 --> 01:24:42.217
that? Is it just frustrating delays or
is there a good explanation for why

01:24:42.250 --> 01:24:46.326
it takes so long? Oh, I think I think
it's more towards the II, I think

01:24:46.359 --> 01:24:51.206
there is a, in most cases, there's a
decent explanation sometimes, you

01:24:51.239 --> 01:24:56.027
know, where that bridge, where that
transition is from, you know, enough

01:24:56.060 --> 01:25:00.397
time to involve everybody so that
everybody is involved in the decision

01:25:00.430 --> 01:25:07.515
process and, and gets to contribute um
versus something that just becomes

01:25:07.548 --> 01:25:12.746
bureaucratic delays, it's hard to know
where the, what the difference is

01:25:12.779 --> 01:25:18.166
there but, but it does take time. So
II I didn't consider the, I thought

01:25:18.199 --> 01:25:22.546
the um the amount of time it took for
that uh HFE protocol which was a few

01:25:22.579 --> 01:25:27.476
years made sense. I mean, that it, it
was, you know, lots of, lots of

01:25:27.509 --> 01:25:33.326
discussions about how it was set up
and including um different parties in

01:25:33.359 --> 01:25:38.256
the process. Can you think of um based
on your experience over the years,

01:25:38.289 --> 01:25:42.696
can you think of any ways that um we
might improve the relationship

01:25:42.729 --> 01:25:50.729
between um science and policy and get
the results of research um to be

01:25:50.819 --> 01:25:56.076
more useful and more effective in
shaping policy decisions? Well, I think

01:25:56.109 --> 01:25:59.286
, and I don't know how realistic it
is. I mean, I think one of the things

01:25:59.319 --> 01:26:04.937
that has helped with this program is
where you have uh a system set up for

01:26:04.970 --> 01:26:12.970
a, a structure where um uh a group of,
of, of both the decision makers and

01:26:13.890 --> 01:26:21.890
stakeholders um interact with uh the
scientists repeatedly over periods of

01:26:22.208 --> 01:26:26.576
many years. So you build up
relationships and people build up some

01:26:26.609 --> 01:26:31.196
understanding of the system. And now,
I mean, that works here where you

01:26:31.229 --> 01:26:36.796
have um a big resource of big dam, you
know, Glen Canyon Dam, which is of

01:26:36.829 --> 01:26:40.385
interest to a lot of people and, and
the Grand Canyon National Park, which

01:26:40.418 --> 01:26:46.046
is a big focal point. Um I, I don't
know how many different systems or

01:26:46.079 --> 01:26:50.687
problems this model can be
successfully applied to, but I think that

01:26:50.720 --> 01:26:55.506
really does help and I think applying
that where um to other problems

01:26:55.539 --> 01:26:58.666
would, would be useful. I mean,
because I think that's, I think that's a

01:26:58.699 --> 01:27:04.147
big part of what works is when you get
um uh people who are involved over

01:27:04.180 --> 01:27:07.046
long periods of time,

01:27:07.079 --> 01:27:11.487
um Climate change, what's uh how is
climate change affecting the work that

01:27:11.520 --> 01:27:18.635
you do? Um affecting the questions you
ask, affecting the um decision

01:27:18.668 --> 01:27:23.446
making environment of the Adaptive
Management Program? Well, it's, you

01:27:23.479 --> 01:27:27.086
know, I'd say that it's something
people have been had in the back of

01:27:27.119 --> 01:27:32.437
their minds for a while. And I think
uh in terms of actually impacting

01:27:32.470 --> 01:27:38.496
what we do, it's probably only just
starting to creep in. Um I mean,

01:27:38.529 --> 01:27:44.296
certainly the issues of, of drought
and the potential for longer periods

01:27:44.329 --> 01:27:50.826
of drought has been an issue that has
uh that the water managers have been

01:27:50.859 --> 01:27:57.515
thinking about and are now doing more
about. Um it impacts, it does have a

01:27:57.548 --> 01:28:02.786
potential. Certainly there's a lot of
potential impacts on the resources

01:28:02.819 --> 01:28:10.595
in Grand Canyon and our program, um
I'm trying to, I think, um, I think

01:28:10.628 --> 01:28:16.576
we're in terms on the, the scientists
here aren't studying climate change

01:28:16.609 --> 01:28:20.217
predictions per se so much. Although
recently there has been some of that

01:28:20.250 --> 01:28:22.647
and there's, and I don't know if
you've talked to anybody who's, who's

01:28:22.680 --> 01:28:26.817
done that work, but there's been some,
some work on temperature modeling

01:28:26.850 --> 01:28:30.756
uh throughout the Colorado River
system, including Grand Canyon who's

01:28:30.789 --> 01:28:34.696
doing that work. That's what Jack
Schmidt was involved in it. But, but um

01:28:34.729 --> 01:28:40.345
Kim Dibble, who's in the building here
is, is the lead on it. Her Kim and

01:28:40.378 --> 01:28:44.226
Charles Yule Dibble

01:28:44.259 --> 01:28:52.126
and Charles Yule. How do you spell
that? Y AC K

01:28:52.159 --> 01:28:57.876
I can, I can look it up later. Um
Yeah, they might be interesting to

01:28:57.909 --> 01:29:02.956
interview them. And so they, they,
they've looked at, you know how um

01:29:02.989 --> 01:29:08.015
climate change scenarios might affect
river temperatures on the Colorado

01:29:08.048 --> 01:29:12.446
river basin, which is hugely
important. Anybody looking at um dam

01:29:12.479 --> 01:29:17.055
operations of climate change, that's
part of the same question there is,

01:29:17.088 --> 01:29:22.726
is, is both climate change and um dam
operations on river temperatures. OK.

01:29:22.759 --> 01:29:24.737
 Um

01:29:24.770 --> 01:29:30.006
And so the other thing that I'm
looking at, not just for Grand Canyon and

01:29:30.039 --> 01:29:33.925
almost more applied to the whole basin
as a whole is, you know, if, if

01:29:33.958 --> 01:29:38.647
river flows decline, what's the
projected change on river channels? You

01:29:38.680 --> 01:29:43.055
know, we've seen essentially, we see
channel narrowing as a result of dams

01:29:43.088 --> 01:29:47.206
because of a decrease in flood
magnitudes. And we'd probably expect to see

01:29:47.239 --> 01:29:52.006
continued channel narrowing and
channel simplification if peak flows and

01:29:52.039 --> 01:29:56.737
river flows continue to decline. So
that's sort of the hypothesis on that.

01:29:56.770 --> 01:30:03.967
That's something that um to be looking
at um what else in the, you know,

01:30:04.000 --> 01:30:11.796
and then, and then the big impact here
is, is how um managers decide to

01:30:11.829 --> 01:30:15.555
handle projections in the reality of
climate change in, in managing the re

01:30:15.588 --> 01:30:22.506
the reservoirs of the basin. And
that's sort of above our outside our

01:30:22.539 --> 01:30:27.296
realm of study here. You know, how,
how the managers decide whether

01:30:27.329 --> 01:30:32.555
they're gonna keep uh do everything
they can to keep both Lake Mead and

01:30:32.588 --> 01:30:37.586
Lake Powell operational or if one of
them is gonna go down first or what,

01:30:37.619 --> 01:30:42.656
how, how they decide to handle that
issue will have a big impact. And, and

01:30:42.689 --> 01:30:47.647
so part of what um we should be doing
is I guess helping them think

01:30:47.680 --> 01:30:50.876
through what are the impacts of either
of those decisions on the river

01:30:50.909 --> 01:30:54.726
system? Yeah, and that's part of,
that's part of what this temperature

01:30:54.759 --> 01:30:58.345
study does. It helps them think about
um just from the perspective of

01:30:58.378 --> 01:31:04.256
river temperatures, but we, in some
sense, it's um it's quite obvious what

01:31:04.289 --> 01:31:08.196
the different impacts would be. Um But
uh we should be talking about that

01:31:08.229 --> 01:31:12.706
, I'd say just 10 years ago, it was
inconceivable that Glen Canyon Dam

01:31:12.739 --> 01:31:17.946
would not be operating far into the
future. And, and we're at a situation

01:31:17.979 --> 01:31:22.976
now, just in the last few years, it's
become increasingly obvious that

01:31:23.009 --> 01:31:27.226
there is a chance that we may not be
able to keep those two reservoirs

01:31:27.259 --> 01:31:31.857
functioning. And we may decide to go
to a one reservoir river management

01:31:31.890 --> 01:31:36.046
regime at some point in the next 10 or
15 or 20 years of climate change if

01:31:36.079 --> 01:31:40.326
this is the new normal. Um and it's,
it's remarkable um kind of new

01:31:40.359 --> 01:31:44.885
context for adaptive management and
for the science that we need to do,

01:31:44.918 --> 01:31:51.756
it's everything could be topsy turvy.
So, yeah,

01:31:51.789 --> 01:31:59.277
everything changed. Um Big question
value of the adaptive management

01:31:59.310 --> 01:32:05.135
program and adaptive management as a
management philosophy regime. Do you

01:32:05.168 --> 01:32:09.756
think it's valuable to approach things
in this way?

01:32:09.789 --> 01:32:13.666
Yeah, I, and as I said, for, I think
from my perspective on how it's

01:32:13.699 --> 01:32:19.817
worked for the sediment resource, I
think it's been worked pretty well. Um

01:32:19.850 --> 01:32:25.305
If, if, if your objective is to, you
know, you have to, you know, we've

01:32:25.338 --> 01:32:28.555
got some pretty,

01:32:28.588 --> 01:32:34.006
really, pretty firm constraints on
this system. I mean, we operate under,

01:32:34.039 --> 01:32:40.416
I mean, well, climate change could
cause big changes in how the dams

01:32:40.449 --> 01:32:44.135
operate. But until then, until that
happens, we're operating under the

01:32:44.168 --> 01:32:48.946
system where the dam is there and it
stays, it operates within its, you

01:32:48.979 --> 01:32:54.116
know, capacity, right. So even right
now with reservoir levels low, they

01:32:54.149 --> 01:32:59.576
couldn't release more than about
40,000 cubic feet per second out of the

01:32:59.609 --> 01:33:05.226
dam no matter how badly anybody wanted
to. Um, because the, the, the

01:33:05.259 --> 01:33:12.626
facility just can't do it. Um, and
they're very tied to the annual release

01:33:12.659 --> 01:33:18.696
volumes. So the system is pretty well
boxed in, in terms of what they can

01:33:18.729 --> 01:33:24.866
actually do. Um, and they've decided
that within that they're going to try

01:33:24.899 --> 01:33:29.187
and have this balance of resource
generation of electricity, you know,

01:33:29.220 --> 01:33:34.675
pres preservation of, of, of, of the
native of aquatic species of native

01:33:34.708 --> 01:33:39.925
fish and maintenance of the river
corridor system, the sand bars and the

01:33:39.958 --> 01:33:44.336
channel and, and uh the uplands, the
archaeological sites and they,

01:33:44.369 --> 01:33:48.437
they're trying to balance all those
things and if that is your objective

01:33:48.470 --> 01:33:53.777
is to balance all those things. Um I
think this is, this, this framework

01:33:53.810 --> 01:33:57.385
works for that because you get all the
people with all their interests

01:33:57.418 --> 01:34:03.055
coming and sharing their perspectives
and grievances and you end up with

01:34:03.088 --> 01:34:07.305
something that is

01:34:07.338 --> 01:34:11.925
as much of a balance as there can be.
You know, I think some people, uh

01:34:11.958 --> 01:34:18.786
you know, aside from uh uh uh a
decision to shift balance in one direction

01:34:18.819 --> 01:34:21.756
or another, I think this, this kind of
works for, for, for running that

01:34:21.789 --> 01:34:25.845
balance, great as my perspective on
it. So you think it should be

01:34:25.878 --> 01:34:30.506
continued? It's been worthwhile? I
think so. Yeah. Um Is there anybody

01:34:30.539 --> 01:34:33.506
else that you haven't already
mentioned that you think we should interview

01:34:33.539 --> 01:34:39.265
? Oh,

01:34:39.298 --> 01:34:43.296
I don't know. I don't know who else. I
don't know. I'm not even, I'm not

01:34:43.329 --> 01:34:45.925
sure what else you have interviewed. I
guess it would be easier if I

01:34:45.958 --> 01:34:51.015
should. Uh, I mean, I think from this
there's a lot of people who have

01:34:51.048 --> 01:34:55.946
been involved a long time. I mean, uh,
I don't know if you've talked to,

01:34:55.979 --> 01:35:03.979
uh, um, talked to Ted Malice who's
been long time, tried very hard to

01:35:04.909 --> 01:35:09.876
interview Ted and he has not agreed
yet and if there's anything you can do

01:35:09.909 --> 01:35:14.857
to change his mind, um, um, he's
probably heard the whole thing. Um, let's

01:35:14.890 --> 01:35:19.277
see. And, uh, you know, Carol
Fritzinger might be a good person to

01:35:19.310 --> 01:35:24.696
interview on our list. Carol
Fritzinger. Yeah, she's our retired logistics

01:35:24.729 --> 01:35:27.147
coordinator.

01:35:27.180 --> 01:35:32.385
So she's retired from the US CS. So
she, I mean, I don't, I, I feel like

01:35:32.418 --> 01:35:38.095
I've, I've, I've spoken quite freely
but she's fully released from federal

01:35:38.128 --> 01:35:43.876
service so she can say whatever she
wants and she, she will GCMRC. She did.

01:35:43.909 --> 01:35:46.916
Yeah, until she just retired in
January this year, you know, at the

01:35:46.949 --> 01:35:53.067
beginning of this year. Um, what was
it? Did she retire last year? Gosh.

01:35:53.100 --> 01:35:59.437
And time goes by. Um, so Jack Fritz is
retired. Um,

01:35:59.470 --> 01:36:03.925
um, yeah, I mean, is there any
particular area that you feel like you? I

01:36:03.958 --> 01:36:09.996
mean, um, you probably talked to Jack,
I imagine. Um, Dave Wagner, all,

01:36:10.029 --> 01:36:15.717
all the real old Webb. No, you talked
to Bob Webb. I wonder what he would

01:36:15.750 --> 01:36:21.406
have to say. Who's Bob Webb? He's in
Tucson. Oh, good. Um, so is Dave

01:36:21.439 --> 01:36:29.175
Wagner. And um, and he was, uh, he was
a, he worked, no, he, he's US TS um

01:36:29.208 --> 01:36:35.476
, kind of a US CS sort of national
research program. Retired and retired.

01:36:35.509 --> 01:36:40.586
Um, but he worked on, on the
tributaries, on debris flows and, and um, so

01:36:40.619 --> 01:36:47.055
not so much the sand bars but on uh on
flash floods from tributaries. Ok.

01:36:47.088 --> 01:36:51.086
He did a lot of rep photography. So
you should check out some of his

01:36:51.119 --> 01:36:54.796
publications on, on, I don't know if
he, he did a whole book on the

01:36:54.829 --> 01:37:00.976
Stanton expedition. Uh, that's where I
saw the name. I have seen it. And

01:37:01.009 --> 01:37:06.777
so, um, ok, you know, on the science
side, David Rubin who did a lot of

01:37:06.810 --> 01:37:10.385
the early settlement work and you
could have it and David Topping, who's

01:37:10.418 --> 01:37:15.976
in our office here. David Rubin and
David Topping. Yeah. Ok. And Scott Van

01:37:16.009 --> 01:37:24.009
Der Ku, we should try to get right.
And, uh, um, I suppose

01:37:27.520 --> 01:37:31.567
everybody on, I mean, I'm sure there
are a lot, lot depending on, uh,

01:37:31.600 --> 01:37:39.515
everybody probably would. Um, yeah.
Yeah, everybody would watch. I don't

01:37:39.548 --> 01:37:44.055
know. There's probably lots of people
that you could talk to.

01:37:44.088 --> 01:37:49.446
Ok. Anything, uh, any last thoughts
you'd like to share before we turn it

01:37:49.479 --> 01:37:54.906
off. Uh, let's see. Well,

01:37:54.939 --> 01:38:00.925
yeah, I think we've covered, I mean,
I, I think it's been a great, uh, um

01:38:00.958 --> 01:38:04.156
,

01:38:04.189 --> 01:38:07.277
it's been a great privilege for me to
be able to work here and to be able

01:38:07.310 --> 01:38:11.937
to do this and be involved in a, in a,
in, in both sides that this aspect

01:38:11.970 --> 01:38:17.845
of, of um being able to do some basic
research but also do applied

01:38:17.878 --> 01:38:24.135
research that has a direct management
uh focus, you know, um not every

01:38:24.168 --> 01:38:29.666
scientist gets to, I mean, uh you
know, scientists can do what they want,

01:38:29.699 --> 01:38:34.987
but not everyone gets to be doing
something that other people um are

01:38:35.020 --> 01:38:38.696
really care about or, or, you know,
actually doing something with what

01:38:38.729 --> 01:38:44.067
you're doing on uh you know,
implementing it or, or making decisions based

01:38:44.100 --> 01:38:47.536
on what you do. So that's, I think
that's a great, you know, opportunity

01:38:47.569 --> 01:38:54.810
and privilege for, for those of us
working here. Great, thanks. OK.