WEBVTT 00:00:01.788 --> 00:00:06.537 OK. This is the second half of uh my interview with Anne Castle for the 00:00:06.570 --> 00:00:13.046 Glen Cannon Dam Adaptive Management Program on March 26th of 2018. 00:00:13.079 --> 00:00:18.125 So Anne earlier, you were talking about um when you came into the program 00:00:18.158 --> 00:00:22.556 in 2009, there was uh a little bit of conflict, policy, conflicts or 00:00:22.589 --> 00:00:26.467 position differences between the federal agencies involved in the program. 00:00:26.500 --> 00:00:31.195 And one of your first tasks was to figure out how to resolve those 00:00:31.228 --> 00:00:35.476 conflicts or differences. And I was struck by your description of the 00:00:35.509 --> 00:00:40.207 process that you utilized, which was to get everybody to the table um and 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:44.207 including the tribes and have everybody talk to each other and begin to 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:49.576 slowly uh and incrementally but successfully work out um a way forward 00:00:49.609 --> 00:00:54.417 that everybody could agree to. And it occurred to me that um sometimes 00:00:54.450 --> 00:00:59.506 this is a little bit different than another type of leadership style which 00:00:59.539 --> 00:01:03.057 we're familiar with in, in, in some federal agencies in which you have a 00:01:03.090 --> 00:01:08.926 policy determined from the top and, and an executor and administrator. Uh 00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:14.635 make sure that everybody down the line is implementing that unified policy 00:01:14.668 --> 00:01:19.046 direction. And we assume that that's the way that's how ceos manage 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:24.206 corporations. That's one style, sort of top down policy conformance. 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:28.697 There's also this sort of bottom up collaborative process which the M wig 00:01:28.730 --> 00:01:32.281 itself is kind of a representative. 00:01:32.314 --> 00:01:35.951 I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the differences between 00:01:35.984 --> 00:01:40.120 those two management styles. Why you chose one over the other in any 00:01:40.153 --> 00:01:43.980 particular instances where you see the strengths and weaknesses are of 00:01:44.013 --> 00:01:49.926 those two different kinds of management styles. I think that part of the 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:57.055 reason for um the way that I tried to manage the AM wig was the condition 00:01:57.088 --> 00:02:01.536 in which I found it. And this, 00:02:01.569 --> 00:02:09.126 the, the context is important, the, the park service and, and when I say 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:14.487 the Park Service, that's not really fair because it wasn't the Park 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:20.566 service as the agency, but Grand Canyon National Park, which was the um 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:28.599 embodiment of the Park service involved in the AM wig. They had um felt 00:02:30.038 --> 00:02:35.805 for the entire George W Bush administration that they were under siege and 00:02:35.838 --> 00:02:43.838 they, I think in some sense, envisioned themselves as um the rebels that 00:02:45.849 --> 00:02:51.566 were saving the values of the park. Um 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:59.599 So, so they felt embattled. Um I think that was part of the reason that 00:02:59.689 --> 00:03:07.689 they were so at odds with the other federal agencies. Um And, and it was 00:03:07.770 --> 00:03:13.436 partly uh because they, the different agencies have different mission 00:03:13.469 --> 00:03:18.376 descriptions and they, they have to do different things. They're trying to 00:03:18.409 --> 00:03:22.856 get to different goals. Um And so that, that natural tension is going to 00:03:22.889 --> 00:03:30.889 be there. But in this case, it was exacerbated by um the politics. And so 00:03:31.149 --> 00:03:35.566 if I had come in as the Assistant Secretary for Water and Science, being 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:39.055 identified with the Bureau of Reclamation and told the Park Service how to 00:03:39.088 --> 00:03:43.305 behave, that would not have worked, that would have been totally 00:03:43.338 --> 00:03:51.338 counterproductive. Um Plus I'm naturally inclined to value the same things 00:03:52.008 --> 00:03:55.967 that the Grand Canyon National Park was valuing. And so I wanted to find a 00:03:56.000 --> 00:04:02.475 way that, that all the agencies could work together. And plus I felt that 00:04:02.508 --> 00:04:10.508 it was inappropriate and unseemly for the different interior agencies to 00:04:11.219 --> 00:04:16.305 be squabbling with each other in public. Um And I thought that the federal 00:04:16.338 --> 00:04:24.338 government should make a better showing than that embodied. And so, um 00:04:24.660 --> 00:04:30.986 it was also the change of administration allowed Grand Canyon National 00:04:31.019 --> 00:04:39.019 Park to be more accepting of the Obama political appointees than they had 00:04:40.528 --> 00:04:44.145 been of the George W Bush political appointees. And so I had an 00:04:44.178 --> 00:04:52.178 opportunity to make peace. Um And so we instituted these pre meetings with 00:04:52.470 --> 00:04:57.395 the federal agencies. Um And that was an interesting evolution as well 00:04:57.428 --> 00:05:03.656 because uh the AM wig, um 00:05:03.689 --> 00:05:07.866 let's say the amid meeting would be for two days on a uh Thursday and 00:05:07.899 --> 00:05:11.866 Friday. So we'd all come in on Wednesday and, and the federal agencies 00:05:11.899 --> 00:05:15.447 would meet and we'd go through the agenda and figure out what we were, how 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:23.480 we were gonna vote and what we were gonna say. Um and then in order to 00:05:24.139 --> 00:05:32.139 facilitate input from the tribes in a setting that they would feel um 00:05:34.338 --> 00:05:40.495 safer in expressing their opinions, we brought the tribes in as part of 00:05:40.528 --> 00:05:44.137 that meeting with the federal agencies because one of the communications 00:05:44.170 --> 00:05:52.170 issues that, that um was uh communicated to me was that the tribes felt 00:05:52.738 --> 00:05:57.645 that their opinions were not heard in the Greater AM W group. Um And that 00:05:57.678 --> 00:06:04.286 their positions were dismissed by other AMW members. And so we thought 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:08.986 that it might be helpful to um meet with the tribes just as federal 00:06:09.019 --> 00:06:14.637 agencies, all of whom bear a trust responsibility to the tribes, um to see 00:06:14.670 --> 00:06:19.687 if we could establish better communication and allow the tribes to be more 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:25.825 forthright, then they might be um comfortable being in the larger group. 00:06:25.858 --> 00:06:33.858 And then, um the uh Western Area Power Administration also a member of the 00:06:34.088 --> 00:06:40.536 , am we um said, well, hey, wait a minute, we're a federal agency too. Um 00:06:40.569 --> 00:06:45.336 And we also have a trust responsibility to the tribe. So why are you just 00:06:45.369 --> 00:06:50.726 meeting with the interior agencies? So we had this evolutionary process in 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:55.137 which we, um we started with just the interior agencies and then we had 00:06:55.170 --> 00:06:58.916 interior agencies and then the tribes came in and then we had just the 00:06:58.949 --> 00:07:03.805 interior agencies, then Interior Plus wa A then Interior W A and the 00:07:03.838 --> 00:07:09.127 tribes and we'd all go through this day long series of meetings all before 00:07:09.160 --> 00:07:14.825 the AM rig meeting started to get our ducks in a row and some of that was 00:07:14.858 --> 00:07:22.395 more successful than other parts. Um I think the, uh, getting the interior 00:07:22.428 --> 00:07:28.075 agencies on the same page was the most successful portion of that. And, um 00:07:28.108 --> 00:07:32.986 , these efforts are all being made around particular issues, policy issues. 00:07:33.019 --> 00:07:39.606 Um You mentioned, uh, the endangered species uh ch and versus trout in 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:45.127 the Colorado River. Um What other issues were sort of the the flashpoints 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:51.387 for uh potential conflict? And um that required more collaboration and 00:07:51.420 --> 00:07:58.967 discussion permitting, as I mentioned, permitting of the science. Um and 00:07:59.000 --> 00:08:07.000 uh there were some conflicts around who was responsible for doing stuff. 00:08:07.629 --> 00:08:14.036 So the park service has its own science um that Grand Canyon National Park 00:08:14.069 --> 00:08:19.805 has scientists that do science in the park. And so there were times at 00:08:19.838 --> 00:08:27.387 which they were concerned that us, GS or GCMRC 00:08:27.420 --> 00:08:35.385 were usurping their responsibilities or overstepping the bounds, maybe 00:08:35.418 --> 00:08:41.596 duplicating efforts. Um That was particularly an issue around cultural 00:08:41.629 --> 00:08:47.816 resources. Um because the park has a responsibility to maintain cultural 00:08:47.849 --> 00:08:55.849 resources within the park. And because of tribal concerns, GCMRC had um 00:08:58.379 --> 00:09:04.476 cultural resource experts, Archaeo archaeologists on staff who were also 00:09:04.509 --> 00:09:09.816 trying to do cultural resource um investigation. 00:09:09.849 --> 00:09:14.537 And um so there was a source of conflict there and I imagine the tribes 00:09:14.570 --> 00:09:18.866 wanted to do their own archaeological archaeology and cultural resource 00:09:18.899 --> 00:09:24.326 studies too in, in some cases, although that, that didn't seem to raise 00:09:24.359 --> 00:09:29.846 the same conflict as between the federal agencies. And if I recall 00:09:29.879 --> 00:09:33.677 correctly, the superintendent of Grand Canyon National Park during some of 00:09:33.710 --> 00:09:38.236 that period was Steve Martin, right. Um, were there other Grand Canyon 00:09:38.269 --> 00:09:41.717 National Park superintendents that were in during that time period that 00:09:41.750 --> 00:09:46.167 you were involved? Yeah. Um, Steve Martin's successor is a guy named Dave 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:53.775 Ura, um, who was uh who is very focused on 00:09:53.808 --> 00:10:00.717 ensuring that Grand Canyon National Park had a good working relationship 00:10:00.750 --> 00:10:08.750 with the other interior agencies and in particular with GCMRC. And so he 00:10:08.759 --> 00:10:16.759 put a lot of effort into uh understanding what GCMRC wanted to do needed 00:10:17.320 --> 00:10:22.787 to do was being directed to do what that took in terms of park resources 00:10:22.820 --> 00:10:28.236 and permitting and trying to work things out. So you mentioned the tribes 00:10:28.269 --> 00:10:35.826 a number of times. Um one of the issues that has evolved over the life of 00:10:35.859 --> 00:10:41.366 the Adaptive Management Program has been uh increasing and making more 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:45.177 meaningful tribal input. Uh Many of the people that we've interviewed have 00:10:45.210 --> 00:10:49.836 had things to say about that. Um Is there anything else you'd like to say 00:10:49.869 --> 00:10:54.645 about the role of tribes, how it may have changed over time, the kinds of 00:10:54.678 --> 00:11:00.047 issues they're most concerned about and how you were successful in getting 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:05.895 their involvement and input on a more meaningful level. 00:11:05.928 --> 00:11:13.928 I think the tribes will always have an important role. Um and it, it is an 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:16.076 interesting 00:11:16.109 --> 00:11:24.109 um dichotomy between the tribal cultural values and this highly western 00:11:25.820 --> 00:11:33.820 scientific effort that's going on in GCMRC and, and that the majority of 00:11:33.979 --> 00:11:41.979 the AMW members relate to. Um So I, I think the sources of that tension 00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:47.677 will not go away. Um In addition to having this um pre meeting with the 00:11:47.710 --> 00:11:54.996 tribes, I also started having lunch with um the tribal representatives and 00:11:55.029 --> 00:11:59.125 whatever tribal members were coming to the AM wig because there'd usually 00:11:59.158 --> 00:12:03.375 be a member and an alternate or a twig member, sometimes tribal members in 00:12:03.408 --> 00:12:09.096 the audience. So we get all the um tribal members together on one of the 00:12:09.129 --> 00:12:14.037 two days of the AM wig meeting and just have lunch together and usually 00:12:14.070 --> 00:12:20.826 without agenda. Um just to create that relationship and social interaction 00:12:20.859 --> 00:12:28.859 , which I found very valuable. And I think that at the end of the day, the 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:39.879 AM Wag functions as uh uh complex set of relationships and it was, it was 00:12:42.798 --> 00:12:48.456 incredibly valuable to me to establish relationships with all the MW 00:12:48.489 --> 00:12:55.206 members. Um And I think that's particularly important with the tribal 00:12:55.239 --> 00:12:59.496 representatives um because 00:12:59.529 --> 00:13:07.529 the, the personal relationship is so important in, in any sort of 00:13:08.229 --> 00:13:14.866 transaction or activity with a tribe. Um And so that was all really 00:13:14.899 --> 00:13:21.996 valuable and the tribal representatives tended to be pretty long lived on 00:13:22.029 --> 00:13:28.726 the AM wag. And so that provided an opportunity to establish and deepen 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:31.047 those relationships. 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:39.080 And when you have that there's so much more trust and um willingness to 00:13:39.349 --> 00:13:46.025 compromise. Um And, and try to be creative about solutions that, I mean, 00:13:46.058 --> 00:13:50.417 maybe you don't even have to compromise, maybe there's a solution that, um 00:13:50.450 --> 00:13:55.157 that gets everybody what they need without compromise. But I think if you 00:13:55.190 --> 00:14:01.856 don't have a personal relationship that's so much harder to do. 00:14:01.889 --> 00:14:07.246 Um That's a great segue to my next question. Uh I love your statement that 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:11.797 the AM wig is fundamentally a complicated set of relationships. Our 00:14:11.830 --> 00:14:17.297 interview with Mary Gordon focused a great deal on her efforts to um 00:14:17.330 --> 00:14:20.936 develop those relationships in a way that allow the, you know, the 00:14:20.969 --> 00:14:26.525 organization to move forward as a, you know, as a kind of a team rather 00:14:26.558 --> 00:14:31.566 than a whole bunch of individuals fighting for a stake in, in the outcome 00:14:31.599 --> 00:14:37.726 , it's more collaboration and that was her sort of contribution. Um Can 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:43.746 you mention some of the key individuals that you think have been most 00:14:43.779 --> 00:14:48.907 consequential in that complicated set of relationships, what role they 00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:54.145 played and some people who should be called out and remembered for their 00:14:54.178 --> 00:15:00.667 work? Well, I think Mary is a good start. Um She has had an interesting 00:15:00.700 --> 00:15:05.606 history with the AM wig starting as an AMW member representing American 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:12.366 Rivers. Um And then coming back as a facilitator uh for a long time, going 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:19.177 away for a little while and then coming back again. Um So, uh she has 00:15:19.210 --> 00:15:26.375 institutional knowledge and um relationships with a lot of the different 00:15:26.408 --> 00:15:32.566 generations of a wig members and, and I learned a lot from Mary. Um I 00:15:32.599 --> 00:15:40.599 learned a lot from her facilitation style and uh a component of that was 00:15:40.719 --> 00:15:48.719 if we were going to vote on a motion, she would um type the motion onto 00:15:49.359 --> 00:15:54.717 her laptop projected on a screen and then we'd fiddle with it real time. 00:15:54.750 --> 00:16:00.145 Um And, and you could do that with suggestions from different AMW members 00:16:00.178 --> 00:16:07.596 in a less than fully parliamentary procedure type manner that was much 00:16:07.629 --> 00:16:12.157 more productive. Um And we'd end up with something that everybody was 00:16:12.190 --> 00:16:18.895 looking at as a motion, um that pretty much everybody could vote for, um 00:16:18.928 --> 00:16:22.366 because they had participated in the process of crafting it. And if they 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:26.645 had some concern about this word or that phrase, they could get that 00:16:26.678 --> 00:16:33.515 corrected before we had to put people on paper um with their positions. 00:16:33.548 --> 00:16:41.297 And, and so I thought that was a really effective device um that Mary used. 00:16:41.330 --> 00:16:46.407 And another thing I learned from Mary was that she would sort of scan the 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:52.736 room and figure out if somebody was looking unhappy but wasn't saying 00:16:52.769 --> 00:16:59.076 anything and she'd make him say something. Um And we developed a really 00:16:59.109 --> 00:17:06.085 nice working relationship. Um because uh 00:17:06.118 --> 00:17:13.627 Mary had um for other chairs, I think, taken more of the, um I'm gonna run 00:17:13.660 --> 00:17:21.345 this meeting role. Um And uh and the, the person who was the secretary's 00:17:21.378 --> 00:17:26.294 desk name was there to make decisions and, and kind of provide the big 00:17:26.327 --> 00:17:33.685 picture but wasn't necessarily running the meeting. Um But I ran the 00:17:33.718 --> 00:17:40.736 meeting, but Mary could facilitate the meeting and that freed her up to be 00:17:40.769 --> 00:17:47.285 able to figure out who was mad but wasn't talking. Um And, and tell me, 00:17:47.318 --> 00:17:52.516 and, you know, we could get that person to express their viewpoint and 00:17:52.549 --> 00:17:59.026 adjust the process accordingly. Um So I felt like we, we had kind of a 00:17:59.059 --> 00:18:07.059 good team thing going on, but I think Mary style is very inclusive. Uh And 00:18:08.420 --> 00:18:16.420 um she tries to make sure that people aren't left behind and that, um 00:18:17.368 --> 00:18:25.368 that I think is key to a functional group where people feel like they're 00:18:25.939 --> 00:18:32.756 contributing, that they're not being ignored. Um And they're part of this 00:18:32.789 --> 00:18:36.607 collective effort and you're right, that's what we were really trying to 00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:43.627 create. Ok, we got a problem here. Um We got a dam that didn't exist 00:18:43.660 --> 00:18:49.186 before and it's upstream of one of the most iconic parks in the world. Um 00:18:49.219 --> 00:18:52.506 How are we going to solve that problem collectively? And yes, we have 00:18:52.539 --> 00:18:58.805 different missions um and, and different constituencies to respond to, but 00:18:58.838 --> 00:19:05.526 let's let's work on it, let's work on it together. And um, so that was, uh 00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:11.347 do you think it was reasonably successful during your time there? I like 00:19:11.380 --> 00:19:18.496 to think so. And partly because um there had been all this conflict and 00:19:18.529 --> 00:19:26.529 controversy and divided votes and um litigation uh at the beginning and 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:31.065 toward the end of the time I was there, 00:19:31.098 --> 00:19:37.315 I think all the votes I remember were um consensus votes without 00:19:37.348 --> 00:19:43.686 dissension. So we come to these decisions collectively. Now, one of the 00:19:43.719 --> 00:19:48.887 things we did as an experiment and I'm not sure if it's still going on, 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:56.206 but um this is really, this was another interesting evolution. So, um so 00:19:56.239 --> 00:20:00.467 as I said, when, when I first started, the federal agencies are batting 00:20:00.500 --> 00:20:05.357 with each other and, and voting differently. Um, and I said, we're not 00:20:05.390 --> 00:20:08.486 going to do that anymore. We're gonna figure out how we're all voting and 00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:14.666 we're all voting that way. Um, and, um, the other am wig members, 00:20:14.699 --> 00:20:19.805 particularly the states had been the most vocal about what's going on with 00:20:19.838 --> 00:20:22.795 these federal agencies. They're voting in different directions. We don't 00:20:22.828 --> 00:20:25.637 know what the secretary thinks. How are we supposed to figure that out? 00:20:25.670 --> 00:20:29.035 And then when we all started voting the same way, they said, well, you 00:20:29.068 --> 00:20:31.746 know, we don't know what the federal agencies are thinking because you all 00:20:31.779 --> 00:20:34.795 go in a room together and you figure out what you're gonna say and then 00:20:34.828 --> 00:20:38.795 you do it and we don't know who's thinking what. Um, so that was, that was 00:20:38.828 --> 00:20:41.906 , you know, whatever you do, damned if you do, damned if you don't, I 00:20:41.939 --> 00:20:49.939 guess. But, um, uh, so there was a suggestion that if the federal agencies 00:20:51.529 --> 00:20:57.526 were gonna all vote the same way, then why should they vote? Why should 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:03.256 they be voting members? Which, which is not as weird as it might sound at 00:21:03.289 --> 00:21:09.526 , at first because it's really unusual to have federal agencies as voting 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:14.476 members of a federal advisory committee, which is what the A W is. So, 00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:18.325 it's a committee that's set up to advise the secretary, presumably the 00:21:18.358 --> 00:21:24.315 secretary can get advice from the Park Service or US GS or whichever um 00:21:24.348 --> 00:21:32.186 independently. And, um, so we decided to try as an experiment that the 00:21:32.219 --> 00:21:37.436 federal agencies would be non voting members. And um that was implemented 00:21:37.469 --> 00:21:44.795 about midway through my time um as the chair of the Am wig. And as I said 00:21:44.828 --> 00:21:50.795 , it, um some people liked it. Some people didn't, uh it gave the federal 00:21:50.828 --> 00:21:58.828 agency some freedom though. Um And, and we were explicit at the time that 00:21:59.420 --> 00:22:02.075 uh 00:22:02.108 --> 00:22:07.785 the, the, the agencies, the interior agencies weren't gonna vote, but um 00:22:07.818 --> 00:22:10.676 they were still going to fully participate and they were gonna make their 00:22:10.709 --> 00:22:18.709 views known so that um am wick members with less time and resources to 00:22:19.828 --> 00:22:26.127 invest in the program would get the benefit of the expertise and the 00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:33.857 insight from the federal folks who were, you know, immersed in these 00:22:33.890 --> 00:22:38.357 issues as part of their jobs. And so that was a little bit of a struggle. 00:22:38.390 --> 00:22:42.387 But um but that was what we were trying to do. So, going back to the 00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:48.825 question of who was influential. So, Mary, I would say, but I really think 00:22:48.858 --> 00:22:56.858 that uh there were contributions from so many quarters. Um The reclamation 00:22:57.868 --> 00:23:04.815 folks had to think outside of their traditional box, which is water 00:23:04.848 --> 00:23:08.016 operations. How are we going to manage this dam to get the water where 00:23:08.049 --> 00:23:12.196 it's supposed to be and generate electricity? Because that's what creates 00:23:12.229 --> 00:23:19.986 revenue. Um They had to go outside that and think, yes, we have endangered 00:23:20.019 --> 00:23:24.585 species responsibilities, but we're all part of interior and we want to 00:23:24.618 --> 00:23:28.746 preserve Grand Canyon National Park and, and how do we do that? And how do 00:23:28.779 --> 00:23:35.107 we honor the tribes? And, and so I think there had to be a considerable 00:23:35.140 --> 00:23:43.140 evolution in the um uh the analysis, the sort of internal analysis that 00:23:44.259 --> 00:23:50.406 the reclamation folks went through and that had been occurring um over 00:23:50.439 --> 00:23:55.226 many years since really the enactment of the Grand Canyon Protection Act. 00:23:55.259 --> 00:24:00.805 But, but it was happening in real time while I was there and I could see 00:24:00.838 --> 00:24:07.196 it happening and gold was the deputy um regional director of the Upper 00:24:07.229 --> 00:24:15.229 Colorado region. Um And she was the uh reclamation AM wig member um for 00:24:17.588 --> 00:24:25.588 many years. And, and she was terrific in terms of uh her ability to 00:24:28.348 --> 00:24:34.426 understand the positions of other AM W members and, and try to work with 00:24:34.459 --> 00:24:42.075 people to figure out a, a constructive path forward. The folks at GCMRC um 00:24:42.108 --> 00:24:46.936 were very responsive and under Jack's leadership, I think particularly so 00:24:46.969 --> 00:24:54.575 to um not only let's do science that makes a difference to um real people 00:24:54.608 --> 00:25:01.045 on the ground. But let's get our results out there. Let's not make sure 00:25:01.078 --> 00:25:06.387 that we've got 30 peer reviews and, you know, 87 spell checks before we 00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:12.776 release something. Let's get it out as soon as we can. Um uh understanding 00:25:12.809 --> 00:25:17.236 and informing people that this may not be final um because it hasn't gone 00:25:17.269 --> 00:25:20.676 through peer review but, but people want to see this stuff, they don't 00:25:20.709 --> 00:25:27.686 want to wait for three years. Um And so that, that was a, a huge hurdle 00:25:27.719 --> 00:25:35.719 for um us geo scientists to jump. Um But they were able to um to work on 00:25:37.479 --> 00:25:44.085 that and uh and turn their results around um much more quickly than they 00:25:44.118 --> 00:25:48.097 had before. Uh 00:25:48.130 --> 00:25:56.130 the Park service, I think was also um under Dave U Baraga leadership, uh 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:02.776 very accommodating um in ways that they had not always been. Um And Jan 00:26:02.809 --> 00:26:10.367 Balsam who was the chief scientist for Grand Canyon National Park um was 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:15.776 really, really helpful in dealing with those tricky cultural resource 00:26:15.809 --> 00:26:23.809 issues um and working with reclamation to um reach an agreement on 00:26:24.959 --> 00:26:31.436 historic preservation that that was part of what had to be done uh During 00:26:31.469 --> 00:26:34.476 the time that I was there, 00:26:34.509 --> 00:26:39.285 we just arranged to interview Jan Bol sometime in the next year. So I'm 00:26:39.318 --> 00:26:43.456 looking forward to that. I know she's been involved as a liaison with the 00:26:43.489 --> 00:26:48.315 tribes for Grand Canyon National Park for decades. So she'll have great 00:26:48.348 --> 00:26:53.305 insight Yeah. Yeah, she does. Yeah. 00:26:53.338 --> 00:26:59.835 Um, during the four or so years that you were involved, were there any, um 00:26:59.868 --> 00:27:04.486 , really significant events that happened? Sometimes there'll be a massive 00:27:04.519 --> 00:27:11.676 flood that changes everything, like in 1983 84 or a crash in a endangered 00:27:11.709 --> 00:27:16.406 species population or terrible fire? Was there anything that happened? 00:27:16.439 --> 00:27:19.897 Some event that happened that sticks out in your mind as significant 00:27:19.930 --> 00:27:27.930 during your two? Um, it was 5.5 years that I was there. Um, 00:27:28.578 --> 00:27:36.526 uh, probably the most significant things that happened, um, 00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:41.857 were the high flow releases. Um, and having the protocol in place to be 00:27:41.890 --> 00:27:48.805 able to do them really quick turnaround, um, was pretty awesome. And so 00:27:48.838 --> 00:27:53.186 were you doing them annually by that time? Almost? Um, that's a big 00:27:53.219 --> 00:27:59.085 difference from, yeah, absolutely. But interestingly, I mean, nature 00:27:59.118 --> 00:28:04.276 always throws a curveball, right. And there was one time that they were 00:28:04.309 --> 00:28:09.746 all ginned up to do a high flow release and 00:28:09.779 --> 00:28:16.496 all of a sudden there was a green catfish problem below the dam and green 00:28:16.529 --> 00:28:22.357 catfish are apparently even more of a threat to endangered species than 00:28:22.390 --> 00:28:28.045 trout, like by an order of magnitude. And there was some concern that 00:28:28.078 --> 00:28:34.085 doing a high flow release with these green catfish in the system was going 00:28:34.118 --> 00:28:42.035 to really upend the ecosystem and, and they didn't have much science on 00:28:42.068 --> 00:28:46.147 the green catfish. And so they didn't know what would happen as a result 00:28:46.180 --> 00:28:52.097 of that though. The high flow release for that particular year, um, didn't 00:28:52.130 --> 00:29:00.130 happen. Um And so it was, I think that was right after I left, but I knew 00:29:01.900 --> 00:29:07.367 about it. It was in the works when, um, when I was still there, uh, it was 00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:12.906 just a lesson on adaptive management, right? You just, you have no idea 00:29:12.939 --> 00:29:16.335 what's gonna happen. You can't predict all these things and you have to be 00:29:16.368 --> 00:29:18.397 nimble. 00:29:18.430 --> 00:29:23.467 That's, that's an interesting anecdote. I wonder, um, if they engaged in 00:29:23.500 --> 00:29:31.256 the same kind of, um, fish control shocking that you were suggesting for, 00:29:31.289 --> 00:29:34.426 I don't think they did. I, I really don't think they've done elective 00:29:34.459 --> 00:29:42.416 shocking, um, in the upper canyon since like 2010, something like that. Um 00:29:42.449 --> 00:29:48.266 , Secretary Salazar came to the first high flow release under the protocol. 00:29:48.299 --> 00:29:54.785 Um, and, uh, I think I went to 00:29:54.818 --> 00:30:00.295 three of them and is it like a party? Does everybody gather at the dam and 00:30:00.328 --> 00:30:05.617 totally like a party? Because it's a good news story, right? You know, the 00:30:05.650 --> 00:30:12.607 media is all there and, um, everybody supports, there's, there's nobody 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:19.085 who doesn't want it to happen. Um, and, well, with minor exceptions, but 00:30:19.118 --> 00:30:23.617 there's always an exception. 00:30:23.650 --> 00:30:29.266 It did. And, um, you know, I got to turn the valve to open the bypass 00:30:29.299 --> 00:30:33.726 tubes. Yeah, it's pretty exciting stuff. Do you have any pictures of that 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:40.226 ? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Maybe you can send us a picture of you with the? Ok. 00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:46.467 Ok. I have a wonderful picture. Um That's uh one of the ones I treasure 00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:53.815 from interior and I think it's from the first high flow release um under 00:30:53.848 --> 00:30:59.226 the protocol. And there are six of us who are standing on the little 00:30:59.259 --> 00:31:05.906 concrete pathway right above the bypass tubes, which is what they open to 00:31:05.939 --> 00:31:11.097 create the high flow release. So there's tubes that are a little bit 00:31:11.130 --> 00:31:17.877 bigger in diameter than this room. Um So maybe 15 ft um in diameter and 00:31:17.910 --> 00:31:23.506 they are shooting water, you know, maybe the water is coming out with such 00:31:23.539 --> 00:31:30.137 a velocity that it shoots out, maybe 2025 ft horizontally before it falls 00:31:30.170 --> 00:31:35.575 into the river. And so this picture um, has the commissioner of 00:31:35.608 --> 00:31:43.608 reclamation, Mike Connor. I uh the um our, our solicitor, um, Bob Snow who 00:31:45.250 --> 00:31:51.946 works on all sorts of Colorado River legal issues. The operator from the 00:31:51.979 --> 00:31:59.031 Bureau of Reclamation, Katrina Grant, um My deputy Laurie Kaman and the 00:31:59.064 --> 00:32:03.522 assistant Deputy Assistant Secretary for Fish, Wildlife and Parks Jane 00:32:03.555 --> 00:32:07.430 Lighter and the bypass tubes are shooting water behind us and we all 00:32:07.463 --> 00:32:13.467 signed the picture. It's great. 00:32:13.500 --> 00:32:18.016 Um Next question. Do you, what do you think um, during your term, what do 00:32:18.049 --> 00:32:22.256 you think you were able to accomplish? And what did you want to do that 00:32:22.289 --> 00:32:30.289 maybe you weren't able to accomplish? Well, um I certainly wanted to 00:32:31.939 --> 00:32:39.939 uh correct what I saw was dysfunction in the AM wig when I first arrived, 00:32:40.868 --> 00:32:48.637 I wanted to um hopefully get rid of the litigation and ultimately that 00:32:48.670 --> 00:32:54.406 litigation was resolved by dismissal. Um, 00:32:54.439 --> 00:32:58.406 and I wanted to, 00:32:58.439 --> 00:33:04.555 uh, resolve the discord among the interior agencies 00:33:04.588 --> 00:33:07.877 and I wanted to 00:33:07.910 --> 00:33:14.496 involve the tribes in a more meaningful way and I think we moved toward 00:33:14.529 --> 00:33:20.857 all of those goals. Uh, I didn't know when I came in that I wanted to have 00:33:20.890 --> 00:33:25.946 a high flow release protocol, but, but I figured that out and, and we got 00:33:25.979 --> 00:33:31.347 that done. And I think that together with a non native fish control 00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:39.380 program, those two things together were significant steps forward in 00:33:41.469 --> 00:33:48.506 managing the operations of Glen Canyon Dam in a way that was responsive to 00:33:48.539 --> 00:33:53.456 environmental concerns, endangered species concerns, and tribal concerns. 00:33:53.489 --> 00:34:00.055 Um So I feel good about that, but there's always more to do. Um when I 00:34:00.088 --> 00:34:05.766 left, uh we were working on the long term experimental and management plan 00:34:05.799 --> 00:34:11.316 , the L temp and that wasn't finished until after I left. I was hoping 00:34:11.349 --> 00:34:18.226 that it would be finished while I was there. The previous long term plan 00:34:18.259 --> 00:34:22.885 had been finalized. 00:34:22.918 --> 00:34:28.796 Uh It had been talked about. Um And I think finalized in the early two 00:34:28.829 --> 00:34:34.077 thousands, it was time to do another one and to incorporate all the 00:34:34.110 --> 00:34:37.686 scientific lessons we had learned and, and incorporate things like the 00:34:37.719 --> 00:34:42.836 protocol in the non native fish control program and to set the stage for 00:34:42.869 --> 00:34:50.765 the next 15 years or so of um operations. So I was disappointed that I 00:34:50.798 --> 00:34:56.976 didn't get to see that one through but, but it got done. Um And now is in 00:34:57.009 --> 00:35:00.537 place. I, 00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:06.217 I think um 00:35:06.250 --> 00:35:11.827 there are many federal advisory committees that 00:35:11.860 --> 00:35:19.166 uh their goal is to see themselves go out of business because that advice 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.727 is no longer required. They've given the advice that was requested and, 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:28.497 and now they're, you don't need them anymore. I don't know that that 00:35:28.530 --> 00:35:36.530 applies to the MW. Um partly because our science is always evolving. Um 00:35:39.369 --> 00:35:42.747 And the, 00:35:42.780 --> 00:35:48.227 the nature of the river is changing, climate change is reducing flows. 00:35:48.260 --> 00:35:56.260 There will be at some point um Different agreements about the operations 00:35:56.809 --> 00:36:04.557 of like Powell and Glen Canyon Dam to deliver water from the upper basin 00:36:04.590 --> 00:36:11.445 to the lower basin that will mean different impacts in the Grand Canyon. 00:36:11.478 --> 00:36:19.046 And the AM wig needs to advise the secretary about their interests in 00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:25.986 those impacts. So I think that um 00:36:26.019 --> 00:36:31.276 it, it isn't and shouldn't be a goal of this group to put themselves out 00:36:31.309 --> 00:36:39.309 of business. Um The, the nature of the problems will evolve, 00:36:39.648 --> 00:36:46.856 the um direction that the federal agencies are getting from their 00:36:46.889 --> 00:36:52.856 political leadership will change over time and they need to hear from the 00:36:52.889 --> 00:37:00.889 interests that the MW represents um about how uh 00:37:01.090 --> 00:37:07.405 how their constituencies view the operations of Glen Canyon Dam and, and 00:37:07.438 --> 00:37:15.256 um how their interests are being affected. So, uh I think that need will 00:37:15.289 --> 00:37:21.296 continue to exist. Um And the fact that uh they've got different problems 00:37:21.329 --> 00:37:26.816 to deal with now than they did when I first started. That's great. Um, and 00:37:26.849 --> 00:37:32.615 , uh, different people will be involved, different tribal representatives 00:37:32.648 --> 00:37:38.956 , different state representatives and, and all of that is the mix that was 00:37:38.989 --> 00:37:44.026 intended when the Grand Canyon Protection Act was enacted in 1992 and said 00:37:44.059 --> 00:37:48.287 the secretary will get advice from these different interests about these 00:37:48.320 --> 00:37:54.717 operations. That's what the M wave is doing. Um, and I think it's, it's a 00:37:54.750 --> 00:37:59.557 really important function and one that needs to continue. 00:37:59.590 --> 00:38:02.727 Yeah, that's a very compelling argument for the value of the program and 00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:06.385 why it should continue. Um 00:38:06.418 --> 00:38:11.756 Do you think that there is any um structural element to the adaptive 00:38:11.789 --> 00:38:17.057 management program that could be improved? Are there any weaknesses in how 00:38:17.090 --> 00:38:22.017 the program is, uh you know, helps representatives are selected, how 00:38:22.050 --> 00:38:26.606 decisions are made, the connection between science and policy or anything 00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:30.615 that you see as a continuing weakness that might be focused on to 00:38:30.648 --> 00:38:35.646 strengthen the value of the program over time. 00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:41.876 One of the things that I had been concerned about when, um when I was at 00:38:41.909 --> 00:38:46.095 interior was uh 00:38:46.128 --> 00:38:51.646 the Grand Canyon Protection Act says that the secretary will seek advice 00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:55.615 from these different listed interests that include the States and the 00:38:55.648 --> 00:39:03.227 tribes and um recreation and environmental, scientific and academic. And 00:39:03.260 --> 00:39:11.260 there's not a designated academic member of the AM wick. And we thought 00:39:11.590 --> 00:39:18.747 about whether the charter should be changed to include that um there was 00:39:18.780 --> 00:39:26.695 some thought that the science advisors um through Dave Garrett at the time 00:39:26.728 --> 00:39:32.767 served that academic function. Braun now. Ok. I would think that he would 00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:37.456 kind of serve that function, but maybe not. Yeah. And, and should that be 00:39:37.489 --> 00:39:42.885 a different status than all the rest of the MW members? Um, I don't know 00:39:42.918 --> 00:39:47.675 the answer to that, but it was something that I was a little concerned 00:39:47.708 --> 00:39:52.655 about the role of the science advisors was always a little murky to me. Um 00:39:52.688 --> 00:39:58.227 And, and so that was, I guess that was part of why I was concerned because 00:39:58.260 --> 00:40:02.586 I wasn't sure exactly 00:40:02.619 --> 00:40:09.276 um what the charge of the science advisors was. Um So that's something 00:40:09.309 --> 00:40:15.416 that I think um could be considered if you start changing, especially 00:40:15.449 --> 00:40:19.396 increasing the number of people on the AM w everybody gets worried that 00:40:19.429 --> 00:40:24.217 their votes are diluted. Um And so it's a political discussion, it, it 00:40:24.250 --> 00:40:32.250 would, it would uh have to be thoroughly vetted. Um So that's an issue. I 00:40:33.418 --> 00:40:41.126 remember it being raised when I was there that um the state 00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:48.115 representatives on the AM wig are usually the highest ranking state water 00:40:48.148 --> 00:40:54.146 official that's been designated by the governor, you know, so Tom Bussy or 00:40:54.179 --> 00:40:59.006 um the director of the Water Conservation Board in Colorado or the state 00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:04.276 engineer in Wyoming, um And sometimes they'll send their designees, their 00:41:04.309 --> 00:41:09.807 deputies or whoever. Um But the member is usually the, the state water 00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:16.967 official um at least that was true. Well, most of the time I was there, um 00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:24.146 , and then the recreational, or usually the recreational representative 00:41:24.179 --> 00:41:31.865 might own a bait shop at page. And so the concern was expressed that we 00:41:31.898 --> 00:41:39.898 didn't have parity among the members. I don't worry about that. I think 00:41:40.378 --> 00:41:48.057 that's ok. Uh, because I think that, um, 00:41:48.090 --> 00:41:53.486 you don't want, you know, somebody on the board of American Rivers talking 00:41:53.519 --> 00:41:57.925 about, you know, going to AM Wake meetings and, and sort of representing 00:41:57.958 --> 00:42:02.356 the recreational community. You want the guy from the bait shop, um, who's 00:42:02.389 --> 00:42:09.646 right there on the ground? And so I, that was not a concern that I had, um 00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:17.679 , trying to think of anything else structurally. 00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:24.717 It was hard, um, having meetings in Phoenix in August 00:42:24.750 --> 00:42:31.425 and those are actually, um, required by the charter. Yeah, but Phoenix was 00:42:31.458 --> 00:42:36.267 just a good airport cop but it's actually in the charter. Yeah. But we 00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:44.057 ignored it, um, and had meetings in Flagstaff and, yeah, I used to get 00:42:44.090 --> 00:42:52.090 worried about people just wandering around at 100 and 17 degrees. Yeah. 00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:57.936 Um, are you hopeful about the future of the program? 00:42:57.969 --> 00:43:05.345 Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's a great program, I think, um, 00:43:05.378 --> 00:43:12.615 in my experience, the work of the AM wig is listened to in the halls of 00:43:12.648 --> 00:43:20.648 interior, I think it serves as, um, an outlet for some of the 00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:31.747 controversies that might otherwise erupt in more unproductive ways. Uh, I 00:43:31.780 --> 00:43:38.885 , I am definitely hopeful about the future. I also think that everybody 00:43:38.918 --> 00:43:46.256 who serves on the am wig for any um significant period of time establishes 00:43:46.289 --> 00:43:50.497 relationships with all the other people who are am like members and, and a 00:43:50.530 --> 00:43:57.695 lot of the, the sort of um group that sits around the table if not at the 00:43:57.728 --> 00:44:04.695 table and those relationships um are productive in so many ways that we, 00:44:04.728 --> 00:44:09.977 we can't even predict uh 00:44:10.010 --> 00:44:14.925 for the environmental representatives to have a personal relationship and 00:44:14.958 --> 00:44:20.767 go out for Margaritas with the, the head of the state water Agency um in 00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:28.436 the state where, where their operations are located that that has benefits 00:44:28.469 --> 00:44:33.537 well beyond the operations of, of Glen Canyon Dam. And I think it's really 00:44:33.570 --> 00:44:41.416 , really important and, and just a good incubator for uh for good things 00:44:41.449 --> 00:44:46.557 to happen because of those relationships in water operations throughout 00:44:46.590 --> 00:44:54.590 the basin. You mentioned earlier in the interview, um the uh the impact of 00:44:54.610 --> 00:44:59.425 climate change on water supplies in the Colorado River Basin. I I'm sure 00:44:59.458 --> 00:45:05.445 you already know Lake Mead is about a third full and Glen Canyon Dam is 00:45:05.478 --> 00:45:13.478 less than half full and 60% 60% now and none of them have been full for a 00:45:14.418 --> 00:45:18.626 while. And climatologists are not expecting or hydrologists are expecting 00:45:18.659 --> 00:45:24.796 them to pretty much. So there's suddenly some discussion uh now about how 00:45:24.829 --> 00:45:30.546 long into the future Glen Canyon Dam and Lake Powell are even viable. Do 00:45:30.579 --> 00:45:34.287 you ever think about that? Does it trouble you. What do you, I mean, this 00:45:34.320 --> 00:45:40.577 is a long term program. Um What's your thoughts on, on the possible impact 00:45:40.610 --> 00:45:45.986 on the program? And the Colorado River Basin as a whole under current 00:45:46.019 --> 00:45:49.695 conditions of drought and climate change? Yeah. Well, there's, there's 00:45:49.728 --> 00:45:54.767 absolutely no question but that climate change is affecting flows in the 00:45:54.800 --> 00:46:02.800 river. And the, the um best and most recent scientific evidence is that 00:46:03.750 --> 00:46:10.057 that effect will be much more drastic in the years to come, 35% maybe 00:46:10.090 --> 00:46:18.090 reduction in flows by the next century. Um Huge numbers and, and that that 00:46:18.699 --> 00:46:26.595 kind of possible future has to spark uh uh pretty intense conversations 00:46:26.628 --> 00:46:30.345 about how we're going to manage this river differently. Um If we're only 00:46:30.378 --> 00:46:32.376 getting 00:46:32.409 --> 00:46:40.409 60 70% of the flows that we're accustomed to on average, um And, and, and 00:46:41.059 --> 00:46:46.836 that will affect Glen Canyon Dam. Um As you know, there's a proposal 00:46:46.869 --> 00:46:53.586 called Fill Mead first that would um put all available water into Lake 00:46:53.619 --> 00:46:59.756 Mead and only use Pell if there was excess. Uh You've talked to Jack 00:46:59.789 --> 00:47:07.115 Schmidt. Um But he's investigated that most recently. And the idea is of 00:47:07.148 --> 00:47:10.747 course, that uh 00:47:10.780 --> 00:47:16.146 if you only have one big water surface, there's less evaporation overall, 00:47:16.179 --> 00:47:20.497 less water loss overall than if you have two big water surfaces. Lake 00:47:20.530 --> 00:47:28.530 Poland Lake Mead. Um But there are other factors at work and um the, the 00:47:30.030 --> 00:47:36.885 Jack's analysis, um which is the most recent seems to indicate that the 00:47:36.918 --> 00:47:43.666 projected water savings are not nearly as substantial as might have 00:47:43.699 --> 00:47:51.699 originally been thought. Um There was some science done in 2011 that 00:47:52.539 --> 00:47:57.675 suggested that 300,000 acre feet a year could be saved if you followed the 00:47:57.708 --> 00:48:05.708 film, you first Protocol. Um Jack's analysis suggests that it might be on 00:48:05.949 --> 00:48:13.949 the order of 50,000 acre feet. Uh And in my opinion, that's not enough to 00:48:17.030 --> 00:48:23.206 justify the really intense brain damage and congressional uproar that it 00:48:23.239 --> 00:48:30.046 would require to, to do a film made First protocol. Um 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:38.079 But uh this is an area where we don't have the scientific data. We need to 00:48:38.929 --> 00:48:43.497 um reach uh 00:48:43.530 --> 00:48:49.526 well informed conclusions and we need um more information about 00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:53.327 evaporation from both of the lakes. We need more information about seepage 00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:57.316 from Lake Powell, in particular. Um We need more information about the 00:48:57.349 --> 00:49:04.037 potential impact of not having uh a storage reservoir at Lake Powell on 00:49:04.070 --> 00:49:09.717 the downstream ecosystems, particularly in the Grand Canyon. Um I think 00:49:09.750 --> 00:49:16.747 that if there's some potential to save 300,000 acre feet um in a river 00:49:16.780 --> 00:49:24.780 where um where we're spending millions of dollars to save 10,000 acre feet 00:49:25.619 --> 00:49:28.936 , I 00:49:28.969 --> 00:49:33.967 that, that if there's that potential, then the scenario needs to be 00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:40.467 investigated. I don't think it's justified by anything we've seen 00:49:40.500 --> 00:49:47.336 currently. Um But we need to develop the data to um to be able to do that 00:49:47.369 --> 00:49:53.827 analysis uh and, and reach more definitive conclusions. 00:49:53.860 --> 00:49:58.646 Do you think we need another adaptive management program working group 00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:05.736 authorized by Congress to deal with the larger issues of, of basin storage 00:50:05.769 --> 00:50:10.695 and water allocation and climate change. Or do you think the current hew 00:50:10.728 --> 00:50:14.517 could take that on? It's so much bigger than its original charter. But 00:50:14.550 --> 00:50:17.936 these are, this is science that needs to be done and collaborative 00:50:17.969 --> 00:50:25.557 decision making. Who would do that? The the bigger challenge um about 00:50:25.590 --> 00:50:29.477 adjusting to reduced flows. 00:50:29.510 --> 00:50:35.706 um is in the first instance, uh 00:50:35.739 --> 00:50:40.296 a discussion that needs to be had among the states, the seven basin states 00:50:40.329 --> 00:50:47.865 with interior revisit the Colorado River Compact. No, I don't know that. 00:50:47.898 --> 00:50:54.767 No. Um I'm talking about primarily the interim guidelines. Um and the 00:50:54.800 --> 00:51:01.006 interim guidelines were put in place in 2007 designed to be effective 00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:08.175 through 2026. But um they uh the, the Secretary of the Interior is 00:51:08.208 --> 00:51:13.557 required to start consultation on renewal or the next iteration of the 00:51:13.590 --> 00:51:19.695 guidelines by no later than the end of 2020. That's not that far away. And 00:51:19.728 --> 00:51:24.675 so the states need to be involved in those discussions. The drought 00:51:24.708 --> 00:51:28.425 contingency planning that's taking place in all of the basin states, but 00:51:28.458 --> 00:51:33.896 most intensely in the lower basin is part of that. Um And we'll probably 00:51:33.929 --> 00:51:38.896 the DC P discussions will probably morph into the recons consultation 00:51:38.929 --> 00:51:43.695 under the interim guidelines. I think that there's enough flexibility in 00:51:43.728 --> 00:51:49.057 the 1922 compact so that it doesn't need to be revised but um the 00:51:49.090 --> 00:51:57.090 operational uh uh implementation of the 1922 compact needs to um evolve 00:51:59.750 --> 00:52:06.537 based on climate change and increased demands. So, but, but that's 00:52:06.570 --> 00:52:12.327 something that the states have to deal with in the first instance. Um And 00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:18.316 I can tell you that the states would be very concerned about having an 00:52:18.349 --> 00:52:26.349 advisory committee with any sort of power um around that discussion. Do 00:52:28.409 --> 00:52:34.336 you think that um the drought contingency plans in place now um uh could 00:52:34.369 --> 00:52:38.526 potentially have an effect on the ability of the Glen Canyon Dam Adaptive 00:52:38.559 --> 00:52:43.925 Management program to continue its high flow event, experimental high 00:52:43.958 --> 00:52:49.425 flows and continue its its research and its work. Is there any potential 00:52:49.458 --> 00:52:54.267 for, you know, water shortages to undermine the continuation of the 00:52:54.300 --> 00:52:57.037 program driven? 00:52:57.070 --> 00:53:04.166 Oh, I think it um decisions around the drought contingency plan and, and 00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:10.566 how that plays out um ultimately can have an effect on operations. So I I 00:53:10.599 --> 00:53:15.006 don't think it will affect the high flow experiments, probably not. Um 00:53:15.039 --> 00:53:17.037 because 00:53:17.070 --> 00:53:22.126 the way the the dam has to be operated for water delivery is on an annual 00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:28.405 basis. And so they can jigger around with the timing and the high flow 00:53:28.438 --> 00:53:35.066 releases um are part of that. So even with diminished leases, they should 00:53:35.099 --> 00:53:42.497 be able to do high flow releases, maybe, maybe not as high. But even then 00:53:42.530 --> 00:53:47.445 it's just a question of how the timing of the releases works during the 00:53:47.478 --> 00:53:53.626 year. It doesn't have to affect the annual deliveries. Um, and, and that's 00:53:53.659 --> 00:53:57.845 an important point. That was something people would be concerned. Well, 00:53:57.878 --> 00:54:00.727 you're wasting water. You know, you're sending upper basin water to the 00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:04.376 lower base and you don't need to. And we'd say no, they're getting only 00:54:04.409 --> 00:54:08.186 the amount of water that they're entitled to. We're just re timing it. Um 00:54:08.219 --> 00:54:15.336 , so I think there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to do that still. 00:54:15.369 --> 00:54:19.247 And there's an energy cost to those high flow releases because you're 00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:25.586 bypassing the turbines. Um And so you lose the energy production that 00:54:25.619 --> 00:54:32.256 would have occurred, had you released that water in a more uniform way? Um 00:54:32.289 --> 00:54:37.227 in the overall scheme of things, that's a relatively small loss compared 00:54:37.260 --> 00:54:44.057 to the annual revenue that's produced by the turbines. Um But that, um 00:54:44.090 --> 00:54:52.090 because it's a non carbon energy that may be a concern in the future, um 00:54:53.179 --> 00:54:59.997 not wasting a drop of water uh that could be used to produce hydropower. 00:55:00.030 --> 00:55:03.066 Um 00:55:03.099 --> 00:55:08.195 But, you know, that's a balance, um that's been a balance that the system 00:55:08.228 --> 00:55:15.307 and the AM wig had to consider from the beginning. Um So, you know, 00:55:15.340 --> 00:55:21.126 climate change is having an impact on the, the basin as a whole and that's 00:55:21.159 --> 00:55:25.896 gonna continue and, and become more dramatic. But, you know, I think 00:55:25.929 --> 00:55:29.997 that's another reason why the MW needs to continue so that all those 00:55:30.030 --> 00:55:36.736 diverse voices um understand the impacts of climate change on their 00:55:36.769 --> 00:55:41.287 particular constituencies and interests and are able to advise the 00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:48.997 secretary. Great last question. What advice would you give an incoming 00:55:49.030 --> 00:55:54.717 member of am wig somebody new coming onto the team, what would be your 00:55:54.750 --> 00:56:01.095 best advice as they launch their participation in the program 00:56:01.128 --> 00:56:06.615 form relationships with the fellow AMW members. 00:56:06.648 --> 00:56:13.727 People have been coming in new for as long as the M wake has existed. So 00:56:13.760 --> 00:56:20.186 there, there are a lot of um acronyms, there's a lot of legend, there's a 00:56:20.219 --> 00:56:26.307 lot of institutional history that may feel intimidating to a new member. 00:56:26.340 --> 00:56:31.896 Um But pretty much everybody there has been in that position at one time 00:56:31.929 --> 00:56:39.929 and I found that people are proud of the am wick history and um are more 00:56:44.099 --> 00:56:49.626 than willing to help educate new members. But it's the creation of 00:56:49.659 --> 00:56:55.546 relationships with your fellow AM wic members that will have the most 00:56:55.579 --> 00:57:03.579 lasting effect and enable you to represent your constituencies in the most 00:57:04.989 --> 00:57:12.517 effective way and communicate on a personal level. Um What, what the 00:57:12.550 --> 00:57:18.517 concerns are, what the interests are um and be able to work um with other 00:57:18.550 --> 00:57:26.550 members at that personal level to create mutually beneficial solutions. 00:57:28.099 --> 00:57:30.099 Thank you so much, Anne. It was a wonderful conversation. I appreciate you 00:57:31.159 --> 00:57:35.559 taking time to do this. You're welcome, my pleasure.