Today is January 15th 2010. And it's my honor and privilege to be the
interviewer for, uh Joe Shahabeer. And uh this is for the A SU Retirees
Association, uh Living History Video Pro Project. And uh Joe, will we
start by having you introduce yourself so that we do a video clip that
they can take that out with you saying your name and yeah, uh I'm Joe, she
backer. Uh, and uh I'm pleased to have Elmer Gooding as my interviewer. It
couldn't be any better and I couldn't be any more qualified to do the job
that he's going to do on me, whatever he's going to do. Uh, uh, you, if
you wanna know, I'm 90 years old. Uh I retired from a SU when I was um 88
years old. No, no, 78 years old. And, uh I have, um, been at a SU from
1963
to uh 1988 25 years. And that's a start anyway. Ok. Well, why don't we
start a little further back and tell us a little bit about your early life
and some of the other things that happened, uh, in your development uh
prior to coming to the issue, then uh then we'll get back to the issue.
Very good. Um It's not difficult for me to describe my background because
in, in a sense I've had a very, very broad and very interesting background
of life. Uh When I graduated from uh junior high school, I had begun at
that time at age 18 to do some acrobatics and gymnastics, even to the
degree that later in my life, in addition to my regular work as a
university administrator, that's what I was Elmer university administrator
from 1946 until I retired. Then in 1988.
Uh so I was had a side issue in life in addition to being uh I can say
this with a little bit of uh humility, a pretty good student. I was
academically, always uh sort of at the top of the class and so on in the
schools, I went to junior high school high school and then college having
said that part of my life is made up not only of family and of Arizona
State University for 25 years, but also of being involved very, very
directly and seriously in gymnastics and acrobatics as a side issue of my
life. It's one of the reasons that at my age, I'm still in relatively good
shape except for this broken foot, which you can't get on here. But I do
have a broken foot today in any event. If that's enough to do, I was gonna
have you said you're talking of about uh your acrobatic skills? I was
gonna have you describe this uh photograph that uh that we have. Yes, with
you and your friend. Yeah. This, this photograph was taken in Hawaii while
I was in the Marine Corps active duty in 1944.
And the man on the bottom is Al Mater. He was a very, very famous acrobat
, professional acrobat. And I met him on the beach there and we were
worked out and this is a diamond head and this is uh like Waikiki Beach in
Hawaii. And then you're the one on top stan, I'm on the top on one arm.
That's amazing. And back to the earlier comment I made when I started
doing and learning uh gymnastics and acrobatics even before college and
high school and junior high. Um I, we lived in Philadelphia and near where
we lived was a theater called the Carman Theater. And the Carmen Theater
would have vaudeville show as well as a movie changing every week. And
always each week one of the acts would be some kind of an acrobatic act.
And my dad who saw a background interest in me early in my life used to
take us to the theater and then we'd go backstage and say, here's, here's
my son, Joe, tell him what, what, you know what acrobatics is about. And
uh that's a little bit of a background that led in a sense to, and to your
question, Elmer, this fellow. And I Al Motter and I, during World War Two
, we did a hand balancing act which you saw a copy of, um, in the evenings
while he was in the Navy and I was in the Marine Corps, uh, Pearl Harbor,
by the way, lo location. And, uh, we were allowed to, uh, by our bosses to
take time off in the evening. As long as we got back at uh 0 600 hours in
the morning to begin work. And we would be, we would actually, we were
actually paid for each of those performances and we would travel all over
those islands. The Hawaiian Islands, which at that time, by the way, was
not a state, but this was the territory of Hawaii at that time. Having
said that that's, that's what that picture is about. As I recall, I think
your father was very physically fit too. So you had, you had a good
example. And Elmer has met my dad. Uh he lived in 95 years of age and he
was a professional boxer. In fact, he was within two bouts of being the
lightweight world champion in 1926. He was that good. He had uh so many
good bouts. He would had a very powerful punch and so he knocked out most
of his opponents, but he had a more than 100 and 90 fights in his life,
amateur and professional. And he only lost four of them and they were not
by knockouts, but they were by, uh, uh, the judge is making a decision. He
was very special, very special guy. When I saw this picture, I, uh,
recalled a, uh, birthday party of yours where you did a handstand and
click your heels, uh, quite a number of times you wanna tell us about that.
Well, ok, that's, that's easy. That's easy to brag about because I'm
still here to brag all the thing. But from about the age of uh 15 or 16,
because I was interested in this hand balancing business that I was
learning about. Uh at this Carmen Theater group of people, I would stand
on my hands every day, every day in the world and straddle my legs upside
down. Uh, for the year that I was then celebrating when I was 16, it would
be 16. And I did that continuously every day no matter where I was because
I could do it in my bedroom, I could do it in the living room like and,
and my wife Gerald knows I get to almost any other room. But uh I would
count my age and I did that until I was 82 years old. And then ger and my
wife is involved in this anecdote.
I went to the doctor because I was having problem with the back, lower
back. And also with my knee and also I had three heart attacks and D Gern
was with me during that time at those visits and she heard the doctor,
both of them, the cardiologist, as well as the neurologist say to me,
standing on your hands is not doing your health any good. Having said that
that was in 1982. Approximately time frame there. No. What she's gonna
correct me. What time? 92
0, 92. That's, that's right. It was 92. But uh it was 92 because we've
only been married 16 years. So it couldn't have been 82. Having said,
having sorry about that sweetheart, having said all that. Uh I therefore
have not been on my hands. Uh I know I can do it but the boss would say no
, I know, I know you can do it too because I witnessed it and I was so
impressed because I knew good and well that I couldn't begin to do it. So
, uh Joe, tell us a little bit about your education. How you came up
through the uh area? Oh, I graduated from high school at Northeast High
School in Philadelphia in 1938. From there. I went into Temple University
as a full ride, gymnastics scholarship recipient. And that was where I did
my undergraduate degree in accounting in accounting and it had something
to do with uh why I'm here today. Really? That, that uh accounting major.
So I graduated with an accounting degree in 1943.
And I joined the Marine Corps in 1942 while I was still in college. And
when I went into active duty, within one week of the day, I graduated from
Temple University in June of 1943. I went to Paris Island for boot camp
and then from there became a machine gun platoon officer. That was my role
and I went as a replacement for the people who had been lost in the Marine
Corps in Tarawa. That was in November of 1943 time frame around the Panama
Canal to Pearl Harbor. And when we arrived at Pearl Harbor, that ship was
full of marines. Uh all all marines officers and the they took 15 of us
off of the ship to interview us at Pearl Harbor who had had either
engineering, mathematics or accounting as a major. And if those 15
officers, young, all young officers, uh uh they then selected three of us.
Uh And from those three, they selected one to be leaving the ship and to
be on the headquarters of Fleet Marine Force Pacific on the logistical
planning of all of the landings that we made. And as a result of that, it
was and it had nothing to do with me or I and it was a, it was a crossroad
of life that I had accounting that they did. They were looking for figure
punchers is what we were, they didn't have uh computers as we know them
today in that day. And having said that uh uh I therefore was at many
places and in the landings, but always on the command ship with the
generals and the admirals. I never as a marine had to sleep on the beach
and the places that we landed. Iwo, Jima, Okinawa. Uh uh all of those in
the Mariana Islands and then later, even in China, because of that
particular background of mine who was interested, I had nothing to do with
that decision. That was a decision of fact that in contrast to desire. So
then you went on with your uh education. Yeah. Oh yes. That, that, that,
so it was Temple University. And then after Temple, I was on the staff at
UCL A for 10 years as a lecturer and also uh as a student both uh uh in
business management. And that's where I did my master's degree in 1952.
And my doctor finished in 1958 phd in business management. By the way, I
was the first man to receive from the California system of colleges, a uh
phd degree in business just uh turned out to be that way 1958. And then
from there you went on and had several different administrative positions
before you got here. And then from Yeah. And then from there, the next,
the next thing I had was a I was for one year uh uh office manager of
Western States Pro Products Company in Los Angeles. And from there I
stayed on with UCL A and left UCL A in 1959 to become Elmer, the uh uh
extension division head of Business for, for four years at um University
of Wisconsin. And it was while I was there that the Dean of the College of
Business in a national meeting from uh Arizona State University, his name
is G home, not J Home or Durham. That was the president uh Glenn Overman.
He interviewed me and asked me to come to be the chairman of the
management department in the College of Business. And that was in 1963.
And that's when I came to at Arizona State University. Tell me about the
management department at the time that you came, not only the management
department, but the number of students at Arizona State University at that
time, by the way, it had just recently become a university, it was a
normal college or, and that's where the one street out here is named after
normal. It was a normal school. And any of that, the uh answer to that
question is that uh the student population at that time was a little less
than 17,000 approximately. And I came as chairman of the management
department uh in the College of Business. I was in that role, Elmer for
two years when the president of the University G Homer Durham called me
one day to his office and said, uh we need to have a replacement. And
among our vice presidential staff, he, he said, I, I'd like you to uh be
that. And that happened in 19
uh 95 and for five years, I was pre you know, I said 95. Thank you, Dave.
Thank you very much for keeping me straight. And um but the two of you
straighten me out. And then by the way, at my present age, I do have some
what we call near term memory loss. So forgive me, you're doing wonderful
you're doing, having said now I'll get back to where I was and I'll use
the, the right. So Homer Derm asked you to become one of his vice
presidents. Yes, that's right. And it was vice president for special
Services. We have. Then at that time G Homer Dham was the president. We
had a vice president, academics, we had a vice president for Business and
then a vice president for quote, all others as it was an ad mixture of 13
functions of the university. And I, I was in that particular position for
five years. So that included uh extension and summer sessions. And yes,
I'm not sure what all else, but, well, I can, I can sort of remember them.
Yeah, there were the, the dean of students, the Dean of Women, the Dean
of Men, the um uh placement services of the university, the Kaet channel
we now know is channel eight of the uh uh the Student Union. Uh And I did
, I think I did say placement services uh and a total of 13 different
functions. And Elmer, it's very interesting because of your background
also at that level of administration of a su that within a year of that
particular assignment that I moved from the chairman of the management
department and the College of Business to the in the in the administration
of the university. Uh It came to me as a, let's say, a well trained person
in management per se uh that we ought to narrow the, the uh actually
expand the vice presidential walls. So I recommend it to pre President
Durham that we have one thing we should do, we should have a vice
president for student services that meant to take Dean of men, dean of
women, dean of students. And that would be at the pre vice presidential
level and that's what happened. And um I was busy doing a quite, quite a
different kind of setting of interviews with people and working with
people. That's a small number of administrators for an institution of that
size. And absolutely, absolutely. And uh Elmer knows this from his role as
the vice presidential level that you, you do not have a span of control
that wide in doing the job. And that was the reason that uh that we made
some changes. Well, you, you offered good advice and it obviously was
followed. Yes. So that's good. Three, that VP job that you took uh in 1967
for Gr Dra, you said it was special services. Were the athletics under you
? No, no, the athletic program came under. In this particular case, it
came under the Business Vice President then. But there is also an academic
vice president under under whose jurisdiction, all of the schools and
colleges reported and administered. So the answer to your question and it
had to do with the fact that it was athletics was then a very important
financial aspect of the university. And the and the Business Vice
President had that under his role. So Gilbert Katy was the guy and he has
his name on them all out here. How come you don't have your name on a ball
? I was not as good a politician as Gilbert.
Now, on the other hand, Gilbert Katy, he was our, he was the Vice
President for Business Affairs when, when I came in as vice president for
Special Services, Gilbert Katy uh did so much for the University College
Avenue, which was, is now Katie Moll uh was named after him later and he,
he, he was gone and the at least that he had died before they named, he
didn't know that he was named after him. But Gilbert Katy was incidentally
a very fine administrator. In addition, David to the the fact that the
funding, the funding for the athletic programs were one were one of his
budgeted functions. He also had the budget for Grady Damage Auditorium.
That was one of the other things that he and by the way, the husband of
Grady Damage Auditorium. At that, excuse me, the husband of the director
was a man who was married to the lady that reported to me for the student
union. Schooler. Yes. Schooler. Yes. And, and the way that's, that was
very interesting to have um a husband and wife team, two major functions
of the university, one great Gamage Auditorium and the other, the student
Union. I want to point out to the folks if you didn't get the point that
was just made in se David is now answering, asking me these questions of
his right. Thank you. That's David Chancellor during the time I was here
at a su let's say 25 years. I would be a speaker on some topic for which I
quote, had a good reputation. It would include, for example, time
management, uh uh lifelong learning, communications, university
administration, small business administrator. These were topics that I can
say with some little bit of uh humility, had good training and background
on. Uh I would be a speaker at least once or twice every week for all
those 2525
years. That's over 1000 speeches somewhere. And what uh the one of them,
one of the topics was I was in charge of the executive programs for uh
that reported to my desk at one time. But then later, as a faculty member
, I was involved in giving those subjects. I would be a speaker at Madison
Wisconsin, Milwaukee, Wisconsin Philadelphia all over the country uh
on a one, once or twice a week. Uh Unless these are major, let me give you
one example,
one of the finest people that um uh related in part to Arizona State, but
certainly to the state of Arizona is the um uh oh, this is terrible. He
was scheduled to be a speaker at Gray G Auditorium to be a major speaker.
Full house sold out the full house. This name of come to me in a moment
and one hour before he was scheduled to Pete, we get a call that the plane
in which he had been scheduled to come on had been held up somewhere and
we needed to have somebody here, the, here the audience is there. So uh
President D called me to his office and said, Joey said, I'd like to have
you uh replace him.
Somebody like Peter Drucker. Oh, it was something uh uh for the state of
Arizona. And even in a more important name. Oh, who was the, who ran for
president and didn't make it Barry Gold, gold. It was Barry Gold. I'm
sorry. So I, I was a quote, a last minute deal and so what I did is I just
took my notes on lifelong learning and there were 3500 people in that room
that, like what I said, that's great. I can't imagine the pressure you
must have been. Well, I guess not the, no, not really pressure, but it was
just, it was on quite a, an honor to, to be, you know, to then be
introduced by somebody as a replacement for Barry Goldberg. Forgive me for
my mental. Well, I do recall from my years in the dean's office that you
were one of the very popular uh presenters at the Center for executive
development and all the executive development seminars that were held. And
uh you were, you're much sought after during that time. Thank you and very
busy. Yeah. What, what is it that, that caused you to choose a su uh when
uh when Dean Oman uh that was, that's, it's a good question. Um I had no
reason to leave Madison Wisconsin, which was the University of Wisconsin
where it was. I liked the, the place I like the, the university. I didn't
like the winter weather, but that's another issue. Uh But, but that, that
in part answers your question. Uh The, the decision that I made to accept
this request by Dean Overman to come was done in February of 1963.
Well, then I left now this was yes, February of 1963. I left Madison
Wisconsin flew to Tempe Ariz, well, actually flew to Phoenix and then got
on the uh uh bus to come to Arizona State University. They were waiting to
meet me by the way with the bus and I got off of the plane. I had left
Madison Wisconsin and the degrees of temperature were below 30 it was, um
, 20 degrees of Fahrenheit and I walk off the plane and it was like 75.
Beautiful in part. That was an answer. It's not the, uh, the other is
that I did, um, I did, uh review the College of Business. I said it, give
it at the time before I made the decision even to come. And it had a very
, very good reputation. Do you recall, um, how big the college was at that
time? And how large the management department was? I do, we had at that
time, 14 members of the staff. So my role as chairman of the management
department was quote the boss of 14 other faculty members. And obviously,
that has changed tremendously since then. Having said that, uh, it was a
small school but also a very good school. It had some very, very famous,
uh, faculty members who were world, uh, not, not only world known but uh
nationally known at that time. Now, I understand that, uh in addition to
your academic work and all that you continued active in the Marine Corps
Reserve. Yes, I was in the Marine Corps and Reserve. And active duty from
1942 until 1975
to actually a total of some 37 years. That's about the number. And, uh,
that would allow me, that is, the university would allow any person in
that kind of reserve decision, uh, to take a month off in the summer, uh,
to go to active duty for training or whatever. And that's, I kept that up
on a continuing basis and you continued your interest in gymnastics and
acrobatics. During that same time in gymnastics, I was a judge and I was,
I was a judge for many years of high school and college and try all over
the country on that role. Uh But with respect to the other business where
I was doing an act and a hand balancing act with several different
partners, uh I continued that on an a very interesting basis. My role at
the university had for me, a given salary, whatever that may have been at
any given year or time would be one in which I would be, make more money,
more money, more dollars in a given week if I did two or three acts or per
performances than I did for my whole university salary for that week. It's
amazing. It's amazing. And then, and again, it was a side issue of my life
, but an important. But while you were doing all this and I understand you
were also a president of the US Sports acrobatics. Yes, sports acrobatics
is like gymnastics except it doesn't use any equipment. It's you and I
Elmer or Linda, you, you and I doing what we call men's pairs. Linda and
Joe doing what we call uh mixed pairs. And there are six different events
, men's pairs, women's trios, men's fours. Just give you an idea. And I
was one of the original founders of that for the, for the United States.
It was called United States Sports Acrobatics Federation. And I was active
in that on a continuing basis over many years. And that organization still
goes on today. It's still, it's still active today. What we have missed.
We, we had hoped this is very interesting. It's on a completely different
topic but it relates to it's just part of you. OK, thank you. Uh We who
were in the administration of sports acrobatics for the United States and
also members of ISA the International Federation of Sports acrobatics have
tried for years to have that sport become an Olympic sport. But there was
the people who in, in particularly in eastern Europe, who had their
gymnastics people uh earning medals and earning lifetime awards for being
great. A and they were the greatest acrobats at that time. Uh They uh they
would not allow sports acrobatics to come into the na international scene
because it sports acrobatics put out each time they had an international
championship, 75 medals. Remember I mentioned there were the men's pairs
mixed pairs, all these and then they would have uh gold, silver, bronze
and so a total of 75 medals. And this was too many as far as let's say,
gymnastics strength was concerned on the international level. The net
result of that is that as of today, the only member of sports acrobatics
as a sport, uh which is at the international level is trampoline. And the
reason, and there's a reason for that the trampoline people
internationally have more power to, to move forward with it and they just
kept the other one out of the, of the and it still is not it, meaning
sports acrobatics is still not an Olympic sport, but it has international
annual championships. Interesting. It's interesting out of all your years
here at A SU is there anything or things that, that, that stand out as uh
particularly challenging or difficult or uh or rewarding? That's all all
three of what you just now said, yeah, challenging, difficult and also
rewarding. I think that the first thing that, uh now let me begin with the
last OK. My last major administrative assignment in Arizona State
University's administration was uh to help to develop from scratch,
absolute scratch. Uh Arizona State University west campus, I was involved
in that from the day that we made a decision that it shall be a new campus
and that at that time, that was only the first time that we had quote
another campus as per se at that time, that would have, that would have
been in the 19 seventies.
Having said that, uh the challenge was to start from nowhere. We started
in renting a little school in Peoria, uh to have not only our
administrative staff meetings and we only had about seven or eight people
at that time on the staff for the developing west campus. Uh, but also we
used the school next to it next door to it for the classes that we offered.
And at that time, it was a very new deal. And the most interesting part
of that administration decision that was made was the first building that
was built for a su West was the library and it was the finest total
technologically perfect uh library in the world. A university library at
that time, they could do anything you could get anything from that library.
Uh which uh was an interesting way in which a decision was made, not not
by me per se but by the administrative group that put that together. That
was to me that was not only challenging, but it's very rewarding kind of
situation. Makes sense that the library would be the center of the
institution, doesn't it? And it's physically the the actual location was,
is now what has become a Su West as the bit physiological center. As I
recall, we even had some classes out of metro center uh during that time
period. Yes, Sena. Yeah. Yeah, you probably taught something. I didn't
teach any but uh but I was aware they were there and I moved over to the
Provost office by that time. So I was aware of it. So, what were some of
the other challenges that you had or, or rewarding experiences? And uh uh
uh uh a rewarding. Uh Let me give you one example. Uh At one time, we, by
the way, this is a totally new sub subject that relates to your question.
The Grady G Auditorium was as you know, named after the former president
of the normal school. Grady G. And he uh he was relieved by G Homer Dham
as the later president, but the uh Frank Lloyd Wright and he were very
personal professional friends in the valley here. And therefore one of the
last functions of design that Frank Lloyd Wright did. It was Grady G
Auditorium. It wasn't then named at that, but it was designed by Frank
Lloyd Wright. Quote for his professional friend, Grady Gage. Interesting
part about that is to answer your other question. Challenging to me. There
were times when we would have and I can tell you this, that this was
rewarding to me. The very first presentation at Grady G Auditorium was by
the Philadelphia orchestra. And the man that was in charge of that was
Eugene Ormandy, the director I received the role from the president to be
his host while he and the band was here and that was a, a performed and I
quote introduced them from the stage. Uh in that, that, that was not only
challenging but rewarding, but the most interesting part of that little
anecdote is that when Eugene Ormandy asked me to take him during the
daytime before the show event that night through the auditorium, he walked
around to the different parts of the auditorium and snapped his fingers.
He said, this is the finest auditorium for the performance of a band that
you could ask for wonder. Now, that was a rather interesting challenge and
he was certainly an expert. So yes, uh are there uh any special people or
persons that uh that had an impact on your career while you were here? You
mentioned one of me and it's right here. Elmer Gooding. Yeah, Elmer
Gooding and I have known each other for all of the years that both of us
have been at Arizona State University. Uh You are one g Homer Dur Durham
who was my boss, uh was the other. And by the way, during the five years
that I was vice president for special services, he remained on as the
president. And then he took over the role for the Mormon church. He was a
Mormon and for the Mormon church, he took over in Salt Lake City, their
international educational program. And that's why he left a su and when he
left at that time, there would have been a possibility for me to be
perhaps one of the vice presidents. But it turned out that there was
another offer that I received just about that time. I was on the board of
directors of an organization nationally called the Society for The
Advancement of Management. That's a national organization of which I've
been a member for many years. And they were uh they were replacing a very
fine gentleman by the name of Harold Fisher, who was president of the
University Division of the Society for Advancement of Management. And he
reached the retiring and they offered me the job and the timing of that in
terms of G Homer Dern leaving and my being quote, one of the vice
presidents at that time and by that time, we had about five vice
presidents. Oh, I became that uh that role uh with the approval of G Homer
Durham, uh excuse me of Glenn Overman, uh the my boss at the College of
Business. And uh I was in that role for a year and then uh the, the
funding of that program was no longer capable to handle all the costs are
evolving. So I then moved on to and remained into a role of being a
management professor per se for the remainder of a time until I took on
that role for the uh uh a su west campus.
Now, if you think about when you came and you think about the year that
you retired. How would you compare and contrast? A su and or the College
of Business uh from, from the time you arrived till, till your retirement
during that 25 year period. Elmer, the word I would describe in terms of
growth and reputation for the university, in many aspects, research,
teaching, uh public service and so on. Of a university. I will use the
word awesome. It went from, let's say 17,000 students to about 60,000
students at that time in 9, 1988. And then as you all of us know right now
, not only do we have 90,000, some students under the leadership of uh
President Crowe and in his new role that has been, but also we have at
least five different full size campuses.
It's amazing change. Yeah, to me that would be but, but you were an
important part of that change. Well, the answer is yes, that had to be.
Yes, that's true. Any other people that um had any impact on your years?
Let me use another folks focus of the university. The man who when I
arrived was the uh uh chairman of the uh athletic department that uh was a
man by the name of Clyde Smith. Now, Clyde Smith was the all of the
athletic uh programs reported to him. Not only did all of they report to
him, but he was also uh the coach of the gymnastics team for Hall. And at
that particular time. Um At the very beginning of that relationship that I
had with administration at the university, uh, Clyde Smith turned out at
least five different national gymnastic champions. I mean, best, best
individual persons in their support. One was tumbling and other was
parallel bars just as an example. Oh, that to me represented a, a really
special guy. And uh the reason I mentioned that is a special guy because
in 1992 men's gymnastics was dropped as a sport, which in my judgment
administratively was a total mis brain. No, a non brainer. But on the
other hand, that has happened all across the country in men's gymnastics
example, not related to a SU. But the fact that A SU now no longer since
1992 has had a an umbrella under which a SU places it, but rather that
particular dream that we kept alive that is men and women who have been
interested in it. We've kept alive by having another coach in a private
school, his own private school. His name is Scott Barkley. And then the,
and then they compete in what they call club sports as in contrast to NC,
to a sports. OK? In that 1992 to now, they have been national champions at
least 11 times national team champions and many individual team member,
first place champion. Now I use that as an example to segue from uh the
man I was talking about who began it and that is, uh, Clyde Smith, uh, had
Clyde, here's the thing. Had Clyde Smith been the athletic director in
1992
that would not have happened and that's just leave it, go at that. I mean
, it was a, uh, a different mentality of the administration. I actually
sat down with the president at that time, 1992 to talk about that, not
just tell him how to run his university, but to ask him, why would men's
gymnastics be dropped? Part of it was thought of as being a replacement
for title nine. That is, you know, that all women will be allowed. Um,
excuse me, all sports programs would be equal in number of dollars spent
for a university. And that's happened all over the country. That what they
, what do we drop? Well, men's gymnastics was one, I didn't answer the
question that I started to it at that time, 19 seventies, 19 eighties we
had on the order of 100 and 75 major universities who had men's gymnastics
as of last week, as of last week, mit a very famous academic school
dropped men's gymnastics and that brought it down to 16. There are only 16
men's gymnastics programs remaining uh in the NCT A program and across the
nation. Now, that's not a ASU but it's related to FIFA A SU is one of them.
Out of the years that you were here, you had contact. Not only with a lot
of administrators, a lot of people in the community, a lot of students. Uh
what are, what are some of your fondest memories of uh of, of having been
here for all those years and served as you had in all the different rules.
I've mentioned a couple of names and a couple of situations so far. Um
The uh uh let me give you one example, my, the man who was my boss when I
first came to a su and that was uh the, the boss of the College of
Business. Uh He was a quality administrator and a bunch of us may, may I
say a bunch of us, a few of us in administration tried to have this
building named or but this building was not built by them, but this school
, it was not called the Carry School of Business. Then it was just the
College of Business we want, we have tried to have it named after him and
you know what the answer I got from the, the total administrator. We do
not name buildings after people who are alive.
That, that this was the final reason that because he, he satisfied all
other criteria that we've been set for. But uh uh he, he was not
considered for it. Now, obviously, the man who put the box into this
character, he's still alive. That's an interesting aspect of so to answer
your question, it would have been that the of the College of Business. You
probably did a lot of advising of students and, and that throughout your
career as well as a professor. What, what kind of advice would you give a
young person now as they were beginning to embark on a, on a career in, uh
in higher ed, in education and university education, university
administration or just, or, or even a student that is just entering what,
what kind of varieties would you give them? Stay with it, do it? Uh uh We
have a grandson who just began uh this week uh at Troy University. Troy
State University in Alabama. And he's having this whole all of the, the
funding paid for him for four straight years, even including a master's if
he wants to continue on with it because his stepfather is a graduate of
the University of Alabama. And that uh and then uh but my point is stay,
we took, his name is Glenn. He's a great kid. Really. He's 19 years old
next week. He's a great kid. Uh And our advice to him is stay with it. In
other words, do that. What an opportunity. Yeah, that's education paid.
Yeah. Now, if you don't have the opportunity to get the uh full ride
tuition from some source, whatever it may be, it still would pay to even
borrow the funding to have a university degree. But that it relates to
another part of my own experience over time. I don't believe that every
student graduating from every high school should in effect really go to a
four year college. Let me tell you the reason I, I have that point of view
, it's a point of view, not necessarily the right point of view, but there
are other things that have changed. For example, one of the things that
has changed a major function of any administrator, it affected you when
you're pro pros and it affected me in a different way because it didn't
exist then in the same way. And that is uh uh email and uh and computers,
they have changed what used to be a one on one relationship of an
administrator to other people who he or she is working with. It's changed
dramatically. Give you the one example at a Su West, one of the first
things that we did in providing for the new staff members as that first
year or two developed for them was to buy and purchase through the
financial request that we made of the president. Then uh a computer for
every faculty member. And there were times when people now who sat next
door to another faculty member would miss meetings because they forgot to
read the the computer. Whereas before they would knock on the door and say
, hey, we have a meeting tomorrow. That was one amazing piece of reality
to me that computers can change in a negative way as well as do so. Many
things in a positive way and now that that has changed now students sit
across the room from each other sending text messages back and forth.
Right. Exactly. Yeah, that's, that's true. It does happen, it does happen.
What, uh, what are some of the things that occupies your time? Uh, now
that you're retired, what are you doing? Uh, uh, keep my sweet, my
sweetheart, Chery. It's gonna, uh, react to this because she has given me
advice so that maybe I should cut out some of the things I'm still active
and have been ever since I retired from a su in, uh, 1988
in at least six different organizations. I'm president of three. I'm on
the board of directors of three others. Uh, and I'm active with them in
terms of things we do together and they have to do with several things,
Marine Corps, military in general. I'm president of what they call the
Reserve Officers Association for the State of Arizona, I think gets me
busy. But, um, we, for example, we have our executive committee meeting
next Saturday which will take a half a day of my time. The answer to your
question is that it be the advice to anybody don't ever give up totally
what you do when you quote, retire. And, uh, and I'm sure that that has
some bearing upon whether I'm mentally and even physically healthy. You're
certainly living proof of that, aren't you? Well, it may be
do. Uh And then of course, there's another part uh choose the right
parents too. My dad has the jeans, you know, that relates to my dad uh in
95. That's excellent. Question is amazing. For a Boxer
West Campus. How is it? You got involved in the west campus being in the
business school? Um That wasn't part of your job. It was not. No, it was
not. It was the fact that, that they needed somebody with a university
wide administrative experience and the la it was a lady. Um I, I forget
her name right now, but she was the head of the program at A S at us U
from the very beginning. And she went through the role and she called me
up on time and said, uh we need somebody if you come over and be an
academic advisor for everything we do from the, you know, from 0.1 till it
grows into a truly effective campus. And uh she invited me there to
interview and that's how, that's how I was appointed that by uh by the
then president of who I think it was uh uh school are not schoolar, excuse
me. I'm stuck on vice President Nelson. That Russell, it was very
interesting. Russell Nelson, he was my student at UCL A. Oh, my student at
UCL A is that there was Russell Nelson? Well, I'm sure your background in
the extension work and all of that that you had done here at A U probably
made you an attractive candidate to help them. I think that's the answer.
I think there was another connection with UCL A and that is G Homer Durham
had been at UCL A before he came here. Yes, he had. Yes, he had. And
incidentally, he, if I can say this, uh I have already implied that in
other comment that you asked me, Elmer, uh He would be one of the people
that stands out in my uh I think I've already said that uh at Arizona
State University with, for whom I had the tremendous amount of respect as
an administrator. Um I, I could give you several examples. Let me give you
just one example during the student uprisings that were taking place
because of the Vietnam War. We had students who would, would take the flag
or w would overtake the flag if they were quote allowed to, I'm talking
about the flag outside the administration building and there were several
times that that happened, there were the students who were going to have
AAA big something or other, but we had a man who was the security officer
at that time. And again, here's my memories. I shouldn't, I can't remember
his name. John Duff.
John Duffy was, hey, now there's another person who stands out in people
because of what he did. He said to the students, he called them together
and he said, if you walk across this line, we will call in the State Guard
for you and stop you. Now that brings me back to what I was about to say
about uh decision making on the part of G Homer Durham, G Homer Durham had
the administration building when he first took over connected to the then
College of Business, then College of Business by an entry from his office
to that second floor building. And if anything were to happen, that we
would need it, that the president would have to get out of the way of what
that was. And nobody knew that. I mean, that, that was not, that was not a
generally known thing. There was a door between the co the administration
building on the second floor into the College of Business, then the
College of Business. But building as it existed, then it opened in the
back of a lecture hall, I believe. Exactly. Yeah, it went, yeah, it, it,
it came right into the, and so if anything ever happened, we never had to
use it per se, but it was there. Well, there were a lot of set ins during
that time period and that would have given him the opportunity to get out
and take care of things rather than feeling he was trapped in his office
when you came to Tempe in 1963. Uh Where did you live? On Terrace Road?
Terrace Road is, uh that at that time? There was a builder who was
building brand new homes and my family and I actually had to live in a
motel for at least three months. By the, until that, that particular house
was finished, it was a brand new home. Uh,
I try to think of the a, is that a, so is that a son home? I don't know, I
, I forget the actual builder but I think it may very well. So you live
there? Your whole? Yes. Yeah. We lived and we lived there. My family and I
lived there. The kids went to Minto High School which was quote within
long walking distance for them, but they went there. No. And, uh, we were
between, uh, terrace Road was as I remember between mcclintock and rural
road at that time. Right now, we, we crossed a terrace road driving here
today. There's an angle of terrace road leading into the area where we
live at that time. And so the answer to your questions, we live close to
the university. Relatively speaking, Joe's family is, uh, is really
dedicated to a su because he didn't mention this. But his daughter was one
of the cheerleaders. Yes. One of my daughters, Tina was, uh, not only at a
cheerleader at mcclintock High School, but also at a S US U. So she had
some gymnastics. Uh, she, yeah, built in, as a matter of fact, uh I did,
uh, I mentioned without giving all the details about different people. But
one of the things that I did in this acrobatics was what was called an
Adao act with my then wife, uh, Dorothy. Uh, and Dorothy's mother, uh,
Dorothy was the mother of Tina and Tina when she was 1011, 1213, we used
to do her, the dog show act that I did with her, her mother, uh, at, uh,
at different places, uh, uh, we would do a show together so that she, she
did a lot of that activity that prepared her well, to be a cheerleader.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So now that, and I, the point is I enjoyed what I did.
Oh, you asked me a question earlier? Um, Elmer, what would I, what advice
would I give to young people? Do what you enjoy
and whatever you, whatever it may be as you're graduating from high school
into the beginning of a career somewhere or going to a university, do what
gives you what I call passion to do it, whatever it may be. Now, I, I'll
give you one example that I have a, a son who's 64 years old. His name is
Mike and Mike visited with me when he was 18 years old and he said, I
don't want to work as hard as you have worked. I said, Mike, what do you
like to do? And he was always good with, uh, technical things. And so Mike
has become and has been a very successful plumber and he's a good one and
Mike has been a ver now he did go to college. He did join the Marine Corps
because of me, on both accounts though, I thought he ought to give it a go.
But then he's, he turned out to be a first class, uh, and successful, uh
, income producing, uh, plumber. Is he in this area? Yes, he was. Well,
let's get his name on the, on his name is his, his name is Michael Sacher.
But the name of his company is Abel A bl he's able to do able plumbing
and he lives in, um, Williams, Williams, Arizona, Williams. Yeah. Yeah.
Great company here. And he lives in Williams. No, no, no, no. That's
where he, that's where he retired. Uh, not retired. That's where he set up
his business years ago. Yeah, that sound advice. Yes, that sound as, as
you thought about coming here today. You probably had some things in mind
that, uh, that you said, well, I'd like to be able to say something about
this or that and I may have missed asking a question about something. Is
there anything that, uh, that you'd like to share with us? I don't know,
Elmer. I think that you and David with the questions he raised, which I
didn't think about to prepare for. Um, uh I, uh I can't think of anything
else that I could say. Well, except to say that it was uh a pleasure to be
related to a SU during that 25 year period. And each one of the steps that
I was in some way related, either as an administrator or as a faculty
member and, or as a uh a person who represented the university in
different meetings. And I did represent uh the A SU in lots of different
meetings locally and nationally uh over the 25 year period. Well, on
behalf of the A SU Retirees Association and behalf of all of our
colleagues A U, we thank you for your service and all the things that you
did to make a su a better place. Well, that's so thank you. So it's a nice
way to say to end a very good program. I appreciate being a part of the
whole picture here. Thank you so much. Thank you. But once again, I thank
you so much. It's so nice of you to come up here and do this for us. And
uh thank you, you helped to build some more memories for your issue. And
thank, thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you.