WEBVTT 00:00:11.810 --> 00:00:13.810 Today is June 27th, 2013. And we're conducting an interview for the 00:00:16.129 --> 00:00:21.456 Arizona State University Retirees Association Video History project. We're 00:00:21.489 --> 00:00:26.046 located today in the A SU Community Services building. My name is Elmer 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:31.416 Gooding. And our technical support staff today uh includes John mcintosh, 00:00:31.449 --> 00:00:36.406 uh who's running the cameras and doing the audio and uh Dave shots, who's 00:00:36.439 --> 00:00:41.265 the director and also with us is uh Linda Vanscoy. Linda is the chair of 00:00:41.298 --> 00:00:46.106 our uh a sur a video history project and we have a special guest with us 00:00:46.139 --> 00:00:50.967 today and uh I'm gonna ask him to introduce himself and tell us your name 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.557 and uh and the various positions you've held at a SU and then later, we'll 00:00:54.590 --> 00:00:58.207 go back into more detail about some of the positions. All right. Well, I'm 00:00:58.240 --> 00:01:03.246 , my name is Quentin Bogart and I was a member of the Faculty of 00:01:03.279 --> 00:01:07.305 Educational Leadership and Policy Studies when I came here, it was called 00:01:07.338 --> 00:01:11.186 the Center for the Study of Higher Education. My specialty was community 00:01:11.219 --> 00:01:17.967 Colleges and I came in 1970 and I am now an emeritus professor. Thank 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:21.986 heaven. 00:01:22.019 --> 00:01:25.566 Well, to begin with, uh why don't we go all the way back and tell our 00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:29.296 viewers about your background where you were born and your family and 00:01:29.329 --> 00:01:33.227 growing up and that sort of thing. Well, I was born in the area of the 00:01:33.260 --> 00:01:39.236 smoked car wheel. So I grew up in, uh, I was born in Quincy, Illinois and 00:01:39.269 --> 00:01:43.546 grew up in a little town outside called Menden, Illinois. And I enjoyed 00:01:43.579 --> 00:01:47.805 the dirt that was collected on the spokes of the car wheel at a very young 00:01:47.838 --> 00:01:54.206 age and uh seem to enjoy small time town living. However, my father, uh my 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:59.936 mother was my father's second wife, his first wife passed away and my 00:01:59.969 --> 00:02:05.117 mother had taught Latin and Greek and English at the local township high 00:02:05.150 --> 00:02:13.150 school. So, um he passed away of pneumonia in 1934 when I was four years 00:02:13.229 --> 00:02:18.204 old and my mother had to go back to teaching. And it was very interesting 00:02:18.237 --> 00:02:24.717 at that time. If you were a widowed woman, you got paid the same as a 00:02:24.750 --> 00:02:30.177 single woman teacher, the men all all got more, even if they were widowed 00:02:30.210 --> 00:02:37.805 , they got uh more anyway, she uh she took the opportunity to go back to, 00:02:37.838 --> 00:02:41.566 she had graduated from Granell College. So she decided to go to the State 00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:47.036 University of Iowa at Iowa City and get a master's degree, which she did. 00:02:47.069 --> 00:02:52.846 So then we lived in various small towns. Uh but we did live in Des Moines 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:56.555 for a while, but we lived in small towns in Iowa and finally wound up in 00:02:56.588 --> 00:03:01.936 Marion Iowa, which was outside Cedar Rapids, a suburb. And I went through 00:03:01.969 --> 00:03:07.797 grade school there. And when uh World War Two broke out why, uh the men 00:03:07.830 --> 00:03:13.636 were all called to duty. So my mother uh received a position at uh James 00:03:13.669 --> 00:03:18.217 Milliken University in Decatur, Illinois. And uh we moved there. I went 00:03:18.250 --> 00:03:23.566 through uh middle school as they call it today, junior high there. And 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:29.967 then when the war came to, well, at least when her position and the person 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:36.646 that held her position came back, we moved to Austin, Minnesota. Uh, and, 00:03:36.679 --> 00:03:42.427 um, I went to high school there until my junior year when she went to 00:03:42.460 --> 00:03:47.606 Hayes Kansas on the faculty of Fort Hayes Kansas State College at that 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:53.297 time. And, uh, I finished high school there. Um, I don't know whether you 00:03:53.330 --> 00:03:58.755 want me to go on but, uh, for the educational steps, go ahead. Go ahead 00:03:58.788 --> 00:04:01.475 with your education, how, how you progress through that all the way up to 00:04:01.508 --> 00:04:08.686 your phd. Well, I started, uh, I started at Fort Hayes. Um, it was, uh, 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:15.116 economically feasible for me to do that. And, uh, but, uh, and my mother, 00:04:15.149 --> 00:04:20.846 um, after being there a couple of years, let's see, we moved there in 47 I 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:27.236 graduated from high school in 48. In 1950. She received a, um, a Fulbright 00:04:27.269 --> 00:04:32.616 scholarship to or fellowship or whatever they were exchanges, I guess, um 00:04:32.649 --> 00:04:38.276 , to England and she and my sister went to England and my grandmother who 00:04:38.309 --> 00:04:44.697 was keeping house for us. And I stayed there and then Corea started, then 00:04:44.730 --> 00:04:50.887 I entered the Navy, um, and went to Pensacola, uh, which interrupted my 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:58.567 college career. And when I came back, I was married, um, my wife was from 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:03.817 the same town I was, and we met in college. But, but, uh, then I went into 00:05:03.850 --> 00:05:08.127 the service and, and one thing led to another, finally our marriage and we 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:14.257 , and so when I came back, uh, we lived in a veterans village and we, we, 00:05:14.290 --> 00:05:19.467 uh, I went to Fort Hayes, finished a bachelor of arts degree there. I 00:05:19.500 --> 00:05:24.947 majored in speech and English. And then I went on and got my master's 00:05:24.980 --> 00:05:30.127 again because it was economically feasible. I went on and got my master's 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:38.160 degree in, uh, school administration and psychometrics 00:05:39.470 --> 00:05:44.015 served a little private two year college down in the mountains of eastern 00:05:44.048 --> 00:05:49.265 Kentucky called Alice Lloyd College. Really? And we were there three years. 00:05:49.298 --> 00:05:53.666 In fact, I was with Olive at college up in Michigan and our president who 00:05:53.699 --> 00:05:58.765 was very difficult man to serve. I was assistant to the president, a very 00:05:58.798 --> 00:06:03.486 difficult man to serve. Um, I said to him, you know, I need to start going 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:07.986 summers and working on my doctorate and he said there's no way you can do 00:06:08.019 --> 00:06:14.926 that here. I don't think he was hinting that I should leave. But, uh, he 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:19.687 told me that they needed me in the summer and I could understand that. So 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:24.986 , a friend of mine who is an educational consultant out of Chicago said, 00:06:25.019 --> 00:06:28.406 you know, I have, there's this little college down in Kentucky and they'll 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:34.986 probably let you go to graduate school in the summer time. And, uh, it's 00:06:35.019 --> 00:06:42.007 called Alice Lloyd College at a town called Pippa Passos. Well, we went 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:49.377 down and, um, it was winter day when we were interviewing down there and 00:06:49.410 --> 00:06:57.245 it wasn't pleasant place or a creek and mainly older buildings. And, um, 00:06:57.278 --> 00:07:02.236 anytime you went anywhere you either had to go across the creek or climb a 00:07:02.269 --> 00:07:07.637 hill. Our Children were quite small at the time. Our, our boys had just 00:07:07.670 --> 00:07:15.670 entered school up in Michigan. So, uh, we, um, we decided we'd do it. Um, 00:07:18.629 --> 00:07:24.377 it was really kind of a mission kind of work. And, um, so we went down, we 00:07:24.410 --> 00:07:31.967 were there for three years. Alice Lloyd was a lady, um, from the northeast 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:36.127 who, uh, felt she couldn't do much with her life. So she went down there, 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:43.007 I think, to escape. Oh, I don't know, maybe escape society. But anyway, 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:46.507 she decided that she would found a series of schools down there, 00:07:46.540 --> 00:07:53.726 elementary schools. But she founded this college called Ky Junior College 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:57.796 and she got her friends to help contribute to the support and so forth. 00:07:57.829 --> 00:08:02.526 And she, her idea was to educate these students from the mountains around 00:08:02.559 --> 00:08:08.596 there free and, and, uh, give them the experience there in college and 00:08:08.629 --> 00:08:12.317 then send them out to places like the University of Kentucky, Morehead 00:08:12.350 --> 00:08:19.116 State, Eastern Kentucky and so forth and let them finish their degrees out 00:08:19.149 --> 00:08:24.455 there and get, and even if they want to get a medical degree, get a 00:08:24.488 --> 00:08:31.245 medical degree out there law degree. So, when I arrived, uh, she had 00:08:31.278 --> 00:08:36.025 passed away but not until after she'd been on Ralph Edwards. This is your 00:08:36.058 --> 00:08:40.304 life program? Oh, really? I remember that program and when Ralph Edwards, 00:08:40.337 --> 00:08:44.924 um, finished the program, he said to the camera, he said, any of you who 00:08:44.957 --> 00:08:51.696 are interested in this lady and her wonderful work, just send a dollar to 00:08:51.729 --> 00:08:56.417 Alice Lloyd. Well, we had 60,000 people on our mailing list that decided 00:08:56.450 --> 00:09:02.885 to send a dollar a dollar, not $5 not. But anyway, it gave us a wonderful 00:09:02.918 --> 00:09:08.236 entree and the fellow, the prince of a man who was the president got it by 00:09:08.269 --> 00:09:13.775 default. He, he really taught English and he loved Shakespeare, but he 00:09:13.808 --> 00:09:19.907 wasn't a, he, he wasn't very social and so it was difficult for him to go 00:09:19.940 --> 00:09:24.395 out and meet potential donors and so forth. And so I was brought on board 00:09:24.428 --> 00:09:30.596 to be in charge of publications and, and go out and meet potential donors 00:09:30.629 --> 00:09:36.616 and try to try to, um, uh gain some support. We got quite a number of 00:09:36.649 --> 00:09:43.106 Wilson requests over the time I was there and, um, we of course, this was 00:09:43.139 --> 00:09:48.116 during the period that Kennedy got assassinated and an interesting story, 00:09:48.149 --> 00:09:53.875 uh, side story. And I don't mean to take up a lot of time on the tape, but 00:09:53.908 --> 00:09:58.236 I had lunch in Dayton, Ohio with a young man by the name of Charles 00:09:58.269 --> 00:10:03.086 Kettering the third. And his grandfather was one of the big three of 00:10:03.119 --> 00:10:11.119 General Motors. Uh, and, uh, he had a foundation and he was, uh, and, and 00:10:12.590 --> 00:10:17.936 so we kind of convinced him to give a gift to uh to the college. And he 00:10:17.969 --> 00:10:23.596 did, I don't remember what it was 10 or $20,000 but it was a lot of money 00:10:23.629 --> 00:10:28.366 at that time. Anyway, uh when I got, when I was a student at the 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:34.135 University of Texas, um the Kellogg Foundation had sponsored us, but they 00:10:34.168 --> 00:10:40.446 , uh we got word that they weren't gonna fund our second year. And so I 00:10:40.479 --> 00:10:44.265 wrote to him and 00:10:44.298 --> 00:10:50.417 he bailed the program out and, but Kellogg came through. So we live pretty 00:10:50.450 --> 00:10:54.686 high on the hog as graduate students. Uh I say high on the hog, that 00:10:54.719 --> 00:10:59.375 wasn't very much money. But anyway, it was a lot of wonderful thing. And, 00:10:59.408 --> 00:11:04.116 and that's one of the experiences I had. I also one of our faculty 00:11:04.149 --> 00:11:08.606 mother-in-laws died while we were there and they asked if I'd use our 00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:15.186 station wagon as a hearse. And the grounds crew built a little uh coffin 00:11:15.219 --> 00:11:22.145 box, like kind of shaped like a mummy deal. And somebody down the, the 00:11:22.178 --> 00:11:30.178 road, uh, donated, uh, a, uh, a plot in the family cemetery. And, uh, I'll 00:11:30.989 --> 00:11:35.417 tell you when they nailed that lid on that coffin. You know, that's final 00:11:35.450 --> 00:11:39.346 because then we put grandma in the back of our station wagon and drove her 00:11:39.379 --> 00:11:44.476 down to her final resting place. Uh, we, we did a lot of things, Sarah 00:11:44.509 --> 00:11:50.336 that, uh, that you wouldn't do in other places. We took a display to the 00:11:50.369 --> 00:11:55.946 Kentucky State Fair and, and uh, students, oh, by the way, the students 00:11:55.979 --> 00:12:02.677 all had to wear coats and ties and the girls had to wear white midi 00:12:02.710 --> 00:12:08.525 blouses and white pleated skirts. You know what a problem that is Linda to 00:12:08.558 --> 00:12:13.677 keep it clean, but they all had to wear them and they got their education 00:12:13.710 --> 00:12:19.375 literally free. And when they went out to places like the University of 00:12:19.408 --> 00:12:24.895 Kentucky, they were given um, a place to live out there and they were 00:12:24.928 --> 00:12:29.135 helped with their tuition there and we had some that came back as dentists 00:12:29.168 --> 00:12:35.395 , doctors, lawyers. Um, it was really remarkable achievement. The 00:12:35.428 --> 00:12:40.145 endowment was large enough that you didn't have to charge any tuition, the 00:12:40.178 --> 00:12:44.826 gifts, just the gift we kept getting. We ha we would I was in charge of 00:12:44.859 --> 00:12:50.275 publications. We'd have mailings about four or five times a year, uh, to 00:12:50.308 --> 00:12:57.196 this large list. And, uh, we'd get, and at Christmas they had a Christmas 00:12:57.229 --> 00:13:00.826 pretty program that they, that's what they called it. The people would 00:13:00.859 --> 00:13:05.885 send in either money or they'd send in toys and so forth and we distribute 00:13:05.918 --> 00:13:10.135 them to families throughout the area and there was a lot of poverty there. 00:13:10.168 --> 00:13:14.775 Um, Pippa passes had a post office and they delivered mail out of that 00:13:14.808 --> 00:13:22.116 post office by mule 22 days a week. They would take a mule up the, the, uh 00:13:22.149 --> 00:13:26.967 , the valley and they deliver mail in places where they didn't have roads. 00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:33.505 And this was in the sixties, late sixties, no, early sixties, but it was 00:13:33.538 --> 00:13:37.236 an interesting place. And Pippa passes by the way is the title of a poem 00:13:37.269 --> 00:13:41.366 by Robert Browning. You know, God's in His heaven. All's right in the 00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:46.496 world. That's what came from it. And I guess Alice Lloyd thought she was a 00:13:46.529 --> 00:13:51.917 modern day Pippa who was skipping along on her holiday and enriching the 00:13:51.950 --> 00:13:55.076 lives of everybody with whom she came in. Contest. Sound like she 00:13:55.109 --> 00:13:59.206 certainly did 00:13:59.239 --> 00:14:04.586 a few years later when I found it possible to do so. Um I was given a, a 00:14:04.619 --> 00:14:10.616 Kellogg Fellowship to the University of Texas at Austin. And uh I pursued 00:14:10.649 --> 00:14:18.356 the phd degree there and uh successfully completed it in 1968. 00:14:18.389 --> 00:14:24.566 And so not with honors, but uh I completed it. One of the privileges I had 00:14:24.599 --> 00:14:30.275 was I also uh aside from being in this Kellogg Fellowship uh community 00:14:30.308 --> 00:14:34.496 college leadership program because community colleges were opening up at 00:14:34.529 --> 00:14:39.206 the rate of about one a week. At that time, the, the, the whole system, 00:14:39.239 --> 00:14:43.116 the whole idea of the community college was spreading like wildfire fire 00:14:43.149 --> 00:14:49.086 throughout the country. And uh I had the Austin did not have a community 00:14:49.119 --> 00:14:54.287 college. And so in one of my media classes, I asked the instructor for my 00:14:54.320 --> 00:15:01.196 term paper, if I could develop a, a half an hour uh uh documentary on uh 00:15:01.229 --> 00:15:07.116 should Austin have a community college? And I did that and I understand 00:15:07.149 --> 00:15:11.797 the E TV station there ran it two times. The first time, the vote was 00:15:11.830 --> 00:15:15.967 unsuccessful. The second time it was so maybe some people were paying more 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.246 attention or perhaps they just got tired of hearing it, but they did 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:23.976 establish community so that maybe it was more compelling the second time 00:15:24.009 --> 00:15:30.736 through, I don't know, um having scripted it and uh I narrated it, I don't 00:15:30.769 --> 00:15:35.436 know how compelling it was. So did this, this, this then resulted in a 00:15:35.469 --> 00:15:38.765 community college being established. Yes, there is. Uh Austin Community 00:15:38.798 --> 00:15:42.346 College was established a couple of years after. Well, actually, it was 00:15:42.379 --> 00:15:46.657 probably about three years after I left it that the vote went through and 00:15:46.690 --> 00:15:51.907 they established the college. Uh Meanwhile, we'd gone to South Texas and 00:15:51.940 --> 00:15:58.086 were involved in a border community college down there. 00:15:58.119 --> 00:16:01.417 Tell us a little more about that because I knew that, knew that not only 00:16:01.450 --> 00:16:04.275 did you study the community colleges, but you were active in the 00:16:04.308 --> 00:16:08.427 administrative role in them as well. So, well, the fellow who was my major 00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:13.385 professor was a man by the name of CC Culvert. And he had produced 00:16:13.418 --> 00:16:18.505 approximately 100 and 50 community college presidents during his tenure at 00:16:18.538 --> 00:16:26.538 Texas. And um so I um he decided that I'd be a good spot for me to go 00:16:26.609 --> 00:16:31.846 since I've been involved with administration. That uh that sex southmost 00:16:31.879 --> 00:16:37.206 was it? Of course, even though I took Spanish as one of my languages uh at 00:16:37.239 --> 00:16:42.467 the University of Texas, uh I didn't speak it. Um I can read a little bit 00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:46.875 of it, but we went down to the border at Brownsville and the name of the 00:16:46.908 --> 00:16:51.557 college was Texas Southmost college that exists today. In fact, they're 00:16:51.590 --> 00:16:56.505 going through a rather difficult period with the University of Texas at 00:16:56.538 --> 00:17:02.427 Brownsville because they had merged. Uh but Texas South Miss Most kept its 00:17:02.460 --> 00:17:08.696 board and uh they had taxing authority, the university didn't. And so uh 00:17:08.729 --> 00:17:15.156 the president there who along with our president, Michael Crowe uh was 00:17:15.189 --> 00:17:19.117 nominated as one of the 10 best presidents in the United States. The 00:17:19.150 --> 00:17:23.476 president down there happened to get into a conflict and the board of 00:17:23.509 --> 00:17:28.236 Texas South most said we're parting ways and the unfortunate thing is that 00:17:28.269 --> 00:17:31.867 most of their buildings were built with bonds issued under the community 00:17:31.900 --> 00:17:35.367 college. So they're in kind of a little predicament. Community college is 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.986 gonna start offering courses this school. But I've said more about that. 00:17:39.019 --> 00:17:42.295 Than I, what was your role there? I was the president of the college. I 00:17:42.328 --> 00:17:49.045 was the third, I think the third president. I, I replaced a very wonderful 00:17:49.078 --> 00:17:54.467 man by the name of James Garland. And uh we, we enjoyed it. We immersed 00:17:54.500 --> 00:17:59.456 ourselves in the culture of the border. Uh It was a free, sort of a free 00:17:59.489 --> 00:18:03.597 fall, free moving border at that time. And you could go over, we'd go over 00:18:03.630 --> 00:18:09.315 every Saturday morning and buy some produce and come back and, and uh one 00:18:09.348 --> 00:18:13.825 of the few times in our lives, we had a maid and we live very close to the 00:18:13.858 --> 00:18:18.016 frontier. We lived in the old commandant's house at Fort Brown. That's 00:18:18.049 --> 00:18:22.867 where the college was located. And then we began to make some moves toward 00:18:22.900 --> 00:18:28.686 getting the uh Brownsville Compre Compress Company, which was a cotton uh 00:18:28.719 --> 00:18:34.666 processing uh area and there were about uh 11 or 12 acres in there. Now, 00:18:34.699 --> 00:18:39.226 we did not gain access to it when I was president, but we started our 00:18:39.259 --> 00:18:44.936 conversations. I also wanted the University of Texas to come down and set 00:18:44.969 --> 00:18:50.266 an upper division up down with us. And Ken Ashworth, who also went on to 00:18:50.299 --> 00:18:56.986 the Texas coordinating board as its uh leadership person. Um had a 00:18:57.019 --> 00:19:01.825 conversation with me one Christmas on our way up to Kansas because we had 00:19:01.858 --> 00:19:06.035 breakfast together. And I said, how about coming into Brownsville? And we 00:19:06.068 --> 00:19:10.026 , we'll help you set up an upper division. He said, can't do it. We're 00:19:10.059 --> 00:19:13.516 trying to go into Can uh San Antonio and Corpus Christi. And he said, 00:19:13.549 --> 00:19:18.506 politically, it just won't work. So it was, excuse me, it wasn't, wasn't 00:19:18.539 --> 00:19:22.627 my doing. But years later they did get the University of Texas to put a 00:19:22.660 --> 00:19:26.055 division in at Brownsville and became the University of Texas at 00:19:26.088 --> 00:19:31.446 Brownsville. How many years were you there? Just two long enough to stay 00:19:31.479 --> 00:19:33.976 ahead of the sheriff. 00:19:34.009 --> 00:19:39.217 We had a Campo that was given to us by uh uh an I A man that I migrated 00:19:39.250 --> 00:19:44.147 from the United States to Mexico and taught there all his life. He gave us 00:19:44.180 --> 00:19:52.180 50 hectares. Uh And uh down in the Mount Eastern Mountains of Mexico and 00:19:52.549 --> 00:19:59.936 we would take, we, we finally built some uh some buildings down there and 00:19:59.969 --> 00:20:05.607 we had a girl's dorm and a boys dorm. We had some individual cabins. We 00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:11.236 had a, a classroom dining hall and it was, it took four wheel drive 00:20:11.269 --> 00:20:17.736 vehicles, three hours to get up from the high highway down below, up to uh 00:20:17.769 --> 00:20:23.637 this, this Rancho del cielo. They got 100 and 50 some inches of rain a 00:20:23.670 --> 00:20:28.496 year only. They got it in six months of the year. Orchids grew on trees. 00:20:28.529 --> 00:20:33.097 It was explained to me that by the lady who was our in charge of that camp 00:20:33.130 --> 00:20:38.996 for us who taught biology and God rest her soul. She's now dead. But uh 00:20:39.029 --> 00:20:45.766 she said, you know, you can find here tr uh plants and, and some animals 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:51.305 that you'll find in, in the mountains of North Carolina and other places 00:20:51.338 --> 00:20:56.397 and also in the tropics because we're below the tropic of cancer. So, it 00:20:56.430 --> 00:21:00.776 was a very, uh, very interesting place. 00:21:00.809 --> 00:21:04.887 I ought to stop talking because, uh, the, our first experience in going 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:10.107 down there, we, we had a, a board that managed the camp. It had to have 00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:15.936 three Mexican citizens and two US citizens. So, one of the trustees and I 00:21:15.969 --> 00:21:22.256 served as the US citizens on the, on this holding company. And then we had 00:21:22.289 --> 00:21:27.637 um a chap who had immigrated to Mexico, who was on the board and then our 00:21:27.670 --> 00:21:33.016 attorney and his assistant to man by the name of Zara in uh Ciudad 00:21:33.049 --> 00:21:39.476 Victoria. And uh so we, we would, we would uh go uh the first experience I 00:21:39.509 --> 00:21:43.815 had was we were down there with a group of students. Uh One of our 00:21:43.848 --> 00:21:47.506 students, uh One of our former students had come back to go down there 00:21:47.539 --> 00:21:51.276 with us. He was a master student at the University of Texas. He was gonna 00:21:51.309 --> 00:21:57.426 do a bat study while he was down there. Um And, and our Children that were 00:21:57.459 --> 00:22:03.617 young uh long about dusk. Uh They came running up to me with a baseball 00:22:03.650 --> 00:22:07.656 hat and I said, look what we have dad and I looked at it and there was a 00:22:07.689 --> 00:22:15.406 coral snake in there. Uh And uh so our biology instructor, this lady who 00:22:15.439 --> 00:22:20.926 would have made a good marine drill sergeant, but who was a lo, we loved 00:22:20.959 --> 00:22:25.575 her anyway, she said boys, uh, we'll just take that in and we'll 00:22:25.608 --> 00:22:28.676 chloroform it and then we'll count the plates on his head and be sure it's 00:22:28.709 --> 00:22:34.196 a real coral snake. And, uh, it was a, it was a real coral snake. Wow. So 00:22:34.229 --> 00:22:38.456 , you know, uh, those kinds of, uh, but our students were exposed to that 00:22:38.489 --> 00:22:43.446 type of, of situation where they got to see these things. We raised 00:22:43.479 --> 00:22:50.186 Amarilis bulbs, smuggled them out of Mexico, let customs, uh fumigate them 00:22:50.219 --> 00:22:54.406 and we'd sell them to keep the camp going cause we couldn't use any, any 00:22:54.439 --> 00:22:58.656 other fund. We had to use gift funds for that or through the sale of the 00:22:58.689 --> 00:23:05.916 MRL. That was one of the interesting experiences that, 00:23:05.949 --> 00:23:11.545 you know, opportunities come along and, and through my major professor at 00:23:11.578 --> 00:23:15.717 Texas again, he said, would you, would you be interested in interviewing 00:23:15.750 --> 00:23:20.756 for a job at Arizona State University? And he said they've contacted me 00:23:20.789 --> 00:23:23.377 and they wonder if there's someone from our program who has been a 00:23:23.410 --> 00:23:29.117 community college president who would like to uh be considered for a 00:23:29.150 --> 00:23:35.516 faculty position. And I said I would because um I don't know whether you 00:23:35.549 --> 00:23:39.996 know the sense of the border at that point in time or not, but the large 00:23:40.029 --> 00:23:46.717 landholders controlled uh most of the political things. And so like, uh 00:23:46.750 --> 00:23:50.956 like the Catholic priest that takes the oath of poverty, they saw to it 00:23:50.989 --> 00:23:55.246 that we kept it. So I was one of the lowest paid community college 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.456 presidents in the state of Texas. So I could afford to make the move. I 00:23:59.489 --> 00:24:06.926 remember my first offer was 14,600 I could teach in the summertime, which 00:24:06.959 --> 00:24:12.406 would, you know, increase your, your income by about 2 $2000. And I was 00:24:12.439 --> 00:24:18.686 only making 17,000. So it sounded good to me. And besides, I could, I 00:24:18.719 --> 00:24:24.717 could get my Children through college and they were coming up on that too 00:24:24.750 --> 00:24:28.956 and, uh, just made a, made a good decision. What, what was it that, that 00:24:28.989 --> 00:24:34.436 attracted you to the A SU and, and what year was that? You said 1919 70? 00:24:34.469 --> 00:24:37.785 Well, I was attracted because they were looking for someone who was 00:24:37.818 --> 00:24:42.156 interested in community colleges and who could relate to the state 00:24:42.189 --> 00:24:47.575 community College board and who had been in a fairly respectable office in 00:24:47.608 --> 00:24:53.617 a community college. And, uh, I seemed to fit the bill and Mor Stout who 00:24:53.650 --> 00:24:58.016 was at that time, the head of the Center for the Study of higher Education 00:24:58.049 --> 00:25:03.406 seemed to like me. And so I was, uh, I was hired, Harry New Ben was the 00:25:03.439 --> 00:25:09.196 president at that time. And, uh, so that was the Starsky era. Yes, I 00:25:09.229 --> 00:25:13.456 remember that. And, um, the interesting thing about Harry Newbern is he 00:25:13.489 --> 00:25:16.357 was part of our department, but he was actually the president of the 00:25:16.390 --> 00:25:23.916 university. And when I came here he had, uh, he, he, uh, had, uh, I'm 00:25:23.949 --> 00:25:28.647 trying to think of his assistant. Now, Troy Crowder. Oh, Troy. And I had 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:32.597 known Troy because he taught journalism at Fort Hayes when we were, when I 00:25:32.630 --> 00:25:38.137 was a storyteller. You remember the color of the car he had because cars 00:25:38.170 --> 00:25:43.325 were not as plentiful to us at that time. Anyway, uh, Troy was his 00:25:43.358 --> 00:25:49.867 assistant and, uh, Harry Newbern had at one time been Dean of the Liberal 00:25:49.900 --> 00:25:54.367 Arts College at the State University of Iowa when my mother was a master's 00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:58.825 degree student there. And the interesting thing is, of course, we had no 00:25:58.858 --> 00:26:03.795 money. So when she could, she babysat and she babysat the new Bern 00:26:03.828 --> 00:26:08.867 Children. Oh, my goodness. So it was an interesting, uh, small world. We 00:26:08.900 --> 00:26:13.565 had connections all the way to the top then I did. But that didn't change 00:26:13.598 --> 00:26:18.097 anything. 00:26:18.130 --> 00:26:21.107 But now were there other people in your department that were interested in 00:26:21.140 --> 00:26:25.706 , uh, the community colleges and, and the, uh, relationships with them or 00:26:25.739 --> 00:26:30.236 did you not at that time? I was the one and I became the, uh, John Swatow 00:26:30.269 --> 00:26:37.217 , succeeded Harry Newbern. Harry New Bern went on to, uh, university or 00:26:37.250 --> 00:26:43.045 the, um, I, I guess Cleveland State University because he liked to be 00:26:43.078 --> 00:26:48.545 president in various places and he was retired, of course at that time. So 00:26:48.578 --> 00:26:55.607 , uh, he, uh, we really didn't have anyone until uh Bob Fenske came in. He 00:26:55.640 --> 00:27:00.075 wasn't interested in, particularly in community colleges. But then Dick 00:27:00.108 --> 00:27:05.367 Richardson came in and he was, he had been, excuse me, he had been a 00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:09.656 longtime community college president, I say long time, five or six years. 00:27:09.689 --> 00:27:13.597 And, uh in Pennsylvania. And so he came and he came as the chair of the 00:27:13.630 --> 00:27:21.630 department. So, um, um, for maybe a year or two, my contacts with, well, 00:27:21.930 --> 00:27:26.426 not my contacts but, but my representing the university community Colleges 00:27:26.459 --> 00:27:32.006 was, was uh off the table. But then I think he found out that that wasn't 00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:37.196 as alluring as uh it might appeal to me. So then I went back to, I 00:27:37.229 --> 00:27:41.607 attended all the community college, state board meetings and, and worked 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.877 with some of the community colleges when we did feasibility studies and 00:27:45.910 --> 00:27:50.206 that type of thing, we did a feasibility study for Northland pioneer and I 00:27:50.239 --> 00:27:54.565 was involved with that and I was involved with a feasibility study for 00:27:54.598 --> 00:27:59.176 Santa Cruz County, which doesn't have a community college. And um they 00:27:59.209 --> 00:28:02.967 were considering what the opportunities would be, but they really didn't 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:08.285 have the economic base to do it. And, but they do have services from Pima 00:28:08.318 --> 00:28:12.877 Community College. So back in the seventies, we were growing so rapidly 00:28:12.910 --> 00:28:16.075 that uh it's a good thing we had the community colleges or we wouldn't be 00:28:16.108 --> 00:28:20.835 able to handle all the students as, oh, that's right. And um we were 00:28:20.868 --> 00:28:25.877 getting some terrific uh teaching at community colleges at that time, Mesa 00:28:25.910 --> 00:28:29.295 was growing and of course, as you know, it's probably the largest single 00:28:29.328 --> 00:28:32.065 campus, community college in the country, even though it's part of a 00:28:32.098 --> 00:28:38.766 district. And, uh, it, it probably pretty close to rivalry of the, uh, 00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:42.285 enrollment at a su, at the time I came. So, I think it was a little over 00:28:42.318 --> 00:28:47.726 30,000 when I came. Maybe. I don't know how long you've been here, Elmer, 00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:53.166 you probably preceded me. But um you may remember the enrollment figures 00:28:53.199 --> 00:28:59.186 better than I do. I came in 1967. Yeah. Well, I, I knew you were uh you 00:28:59.219 --> 00:29:05.726 were a uh old hand at this thing. So, but anyway, that's uh uh so I, I did 00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:10.127 follow the state board. I did write a report and gave it to the president 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:16.555 , whomever was president at that time. And uh then I did some work with 00:29:16.588 --> 00:29:21.976 various things in community colleges and involved in making some 00:29:22.009 --> 00:29:26.305 presentations and some national meetings. We held some conferences and I 00:29:26.338 --> 00:29:32.996 think one of the sad things is that uh President Wada was not given credit 00:29:33.029 --> 00:29:37.315 for being around or as accessible as they'd like. And he was always very 00:29:37.348 --> 00:29:42.117 accessible to me and he attended uh he, he spoke at some of the community 00:29:42.150 --> 00:29:49.107 college conferences we had. So I am, I was indebted to him for his help. 00:29:49.140 --> 00:29:54.137 So, um what, what do you remember most about your, your career? And, and 00:29:54.170 --> 00:29:58.637 the development of the relationships with the community colleges and all 00:29:58.670 --> 00:30:04.857 those kind of things. Any special. Well, you know, I, I, when I came here 00:30:04.890 --> 00:30:10.156 , the president up at Yapi College was, in fact the first college campus I 00:30:10.189 --> 00:30:18.189 went to, um, as a, as an, a su um employee was uh Yapi College and John 00:30:19.809 --> 00:30:23.766 Barnes, who was the president at that time, there were two John Barnes 00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:26.996 that have been presidents of community Colleges in Arizona. I didn't know 00:30:27.029 --> 00:30:32.746 that one at Yuma and then one up in Prescott. But John Barnes uh up there 00:30:32.779 --> 00:30:36.805 , I had known in Texas, he and I were in a class together at the 00:30:36.838 --> 00:30:44.276 university. Uh so it was kind of nice to have that happen. And uh and 00:30:44.309 --> 00:30:49.276 fortunately we got some of our students, I taught a course as which is a 00:30:49.309 --> 00:30:53.526 pretty pedestrian course called the Community Junior College. And it was 00:30:53.559 --> 00:30:57.075 really an introduction to people who wanted to teach in community colleges 00:30:57.108 --> 00:31:02.085 , our state at that time, licensed community college teachers. And so that 00:31:02.118 --> 00:31:06.075 was, they had to take a course of that type and I happened to teach that 00:31:06.108 --> 00:31:10.367 class. So I had as many as 95 students in that class at the time. In fact 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:15.236 , what I found out one time in the evening, I used to teach at 640 in the 00:31:15.269 --> 00:31:20.295 evening because uh graduate students were really available in the daytime. 00:31:20.328 --> 00:31:25.186 But we didn't have many full time graduate students. And um, I found out 00:31:25.219 --> 00:31:28.377 later that there was a young woman in the back of the room and I don't 00:31:28.410 --> 00:31:32.285 know her name. I don't even know what she looked like but she was enjoying 00:31:32.318 --> 00:31:38.486 a martini in my class, which made it look like I had a II, I didn't have 00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:43.097 to do this big, a dog and pony show because she was entertaining herself. 00:31:43.130 --> 00:31:49.637 But at least that's, that's my, that's the way I surmised it anyway, of 00:31:49.670 --> 00:31:53.916 course, that you taught uh on community colleges. What were some of the 00:31:53.949 --> 00:31:59.976 topics that were covered in there? Oh, we covered the, the philosophy, 00:32:00.009 --> 00:32:05.335 which is probably key and we covered uh teaching in the community college. 00:32:05.368 --> 00:32:08.996 We're talking about governance, finance. 00:32:09.029 --> 00:32:13.666 Um I, in that one course, we touched on all of those things we talked 00:32:13.699 --> 00:32:21.597 about curriculum. Um And we did, we, we tried to emphasize the fact that 00:32:21.630 --> 00:32:28.217 it was very student oriented that uh that was one of the missions was to, 00:32:28.250 --> 00:32:33.526 to see that the student was well served. Uh And we've had a lot of wells 00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:37.516 served students at a su that have come up transferred from community 00:32:37.549 --> 00:32:42.847 colleges. Also. It's a social organization in a lot of ways, a socializing 00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:50.156 organization. Uh It kind of parallels the um the folks Aulen in Germany 00:32:50.189 --> 00:32:55.575 and Europe that considers itself to be a socializing organization in 00:32:55.608 --> 00:33:03.608 addition to teaching various uh areas. 00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:07.486 Well, with all this involvement with the community colleges, uh were you 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:11.276 were you involved in the, uh, transfer credit, uh, agreements you 00:33:11.309 --> 00:33:16.575 established over the years as you know, Arizona State, particularly the, 00:33:16.608 --> 00:33:20.335 the vice president's office. Danen Feld was the vice president when I came 00:33:20.368 --> 00:33:26.347 in and Joyce Foster. And, and, uh, I can't remember who the registrar was 00:33:26.380 --> 00:33:32.117 and he was a delightful man, but he had, he, uh, 00:33:32.150 --> 00:33:38.266 no one, Alfred Thomas, no, Alfred. It was past Alfred's time. Anyway, it's 00:33:38.299 --> 00:33:40.795 , uh, 00:33:40.828 --> 00:33:45.367 he was from Washington State. I remember. Well, he shouldn't be forgotten 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:52.555 but I'm sorry, I have. Uh anyway, he, he, um, he was also a part of this 00:33:52.588 --> 00:33:56.107 and we, we had, they had what they called the higher education 00:33:56.140 --> 00:34:03.406 coordinating council or uh they called it heck. And so we met with various 00:34:03.439 --> 00:34:07.706 community college people. We're trying to work out a core curriculum that 00:34:07.739 --> 00:34:13.046 would ease the transfer of credits. And I had suggested at one time they, 00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:17.186 they call it the higher education liaison league. But uh they didn't seem 00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:21.977 to appreciate that. They didn't like that acronym going from heck to hell. 00:34:22.010 --> 00:34:26.577 But, uh and they held the meetings all over the state and I was involved 00:34:26.610 --> 00:34:34.425 with that um uh for a long, long period of time and uh we did get some, we 00:34:34.458 --> 00:34:37.626 did get some transfer curriculum, uh worked out with some of the colleges 00:34:37.659 --> 00:34:43.006 , but not all of them. I think it was later, a group was involved with 00:34:43.039 --> 00:34:50.845 that. Um I'm not sure. Uh, Leonard, uh Gordon, the current Dean of the 00:34:50.878 --> 00:34:56.135 Emeritus College has told me that he was and that he remembered me, but I 00:34:56.168 --> 00:35:02.865 don't remember, uh, that I was involved with it at that time. And, uh, but 00:35:02.898 --> 00:35:09.796 , but anyway, we, we did that and then, uh, in 1991 00:35:09.829 --> 00:35:16.615 or 92 we, uh, a graduate student of mine, uh, Mary Jane Price and I did a 00:35:16.648 --> 00:35:24.648 study of the graduating seniors at the, at the four universities. Actually. 00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:33.320 Um It was nauu of a ASU and Grand Canyon. Uh And the sample was fairly 00:35:33.728 --> 00:35:37.586 small there, but we, our total population we got responses from was over 00:35:37.619 --> 00:35:40.827 900 00:35:40.860 --> 00:35:47.736 we tried to divide them out. Um We, we decided that anyone who had 24 or 00:35:47.769 --> 00:35:52.436 more hours at the community college would be called a transfer student. 00:35:52.469 --> 00:35:57.077 And those that began at the university were native students. So we found 00:35:57.110 --> 00:36:02.227 out by looking at their grade point averages in the last year that the 00:36:02.260 --> 00:36:08.916 community college transfer students um scored higher as far as their GPA 00:36:08.949 --> 00:36:14.006 was concerned than the native university students. They really uh really 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:18.115 came along. We, we probably didn't make as much out of the results of that 00:36:18.148 --> 00:36:22.086 study as we should have. But uh for some reason or other, I've never been 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:28.436 a very good promoter. And uh so anyway, but that's, that's one study that 00:36:28.469 --> 00:36:33.776 I was very happy we did. And uh it, it uh and the State Board was pleased 00:36:33.809 --> 00:36:39.905 about it. So, was there a battle going on between the university and the 00:36:39.938 --> 00:36:47.017 community college that, uh, kind of, uh, competition or? It seemed like 00:36:47.050 --> 00:36:53.217 there was always some tension there between the two organizations. Well, I 00:36:53.250 --> 00:36:58.566 think that, I don't know, uh, I, I'm, I'm not sure how to answer your 00:36:58.599 --> 00:37:03.095 question. I know that a su and U of A don't always get along very well. Uh 00:37:03.128 --> 00:37:08.905 , there are some jealousies there. Um But uh the, I suppose there would be 00:37:08.938 --> 00:37:14.736 um the acceptance of courses that uh Mike match was being taught at the 00:37:14.769 --> 00:37:19.865 university. Well, I think we are who have been professors in universities 00:37:19.898 --> 00:37:23.365 think there is nobody on a community college campus that teaches a class 00:37:23.398 --> 00:37:29.936 as well as I do. Uh However, the problem now is we have so many foreign 00:37:29.969 --> 00:37:37.546 students tas that our freshmen and sophomores at the university, sometimes 00:37:37.579 --> 00:37:42.865 they even have difficulty understanding what the uh T A is teaching 00:37:42.898 --> 00:37:46.666 because their language is different. They are not as accomplished in 00:37:46.699 --> 00:37:52.787 English. And so in a way, uh the community colleges are a godsend to the 00:37:52.820 --> 00:37:58.086 universities at least when they come in as either um first year sophomores 00:37:58.119 --> 00:38:06.119 , uh or mid year sophomores or juniors. Why they at least can grasp what 00:38:06.789 --> 00:38:10.236 the instructor because they'll get, they'll get as upper division students 00:38:10.269 --> 00:38:16.666 , they generally get uh instructors that are full time, um or professors 00:38:16.699 --> 00:38:20.595 that are full time and are teaching classes. So they're a little more 00:38:20.628 --> 00:38:24.925 understandable sometimes. I don't know what that you're getting, that's 00:38:24.958 --> 00:38:28.896 what you're getting at. But yes, there is some tension I think because I 00:38:28.929 --> 00:38:33.247 think the university faculty sometimes tend to look down their noses at 00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:37.666 community college people, but we have some tremendous community college 00:38:37.699 --> 00:38:43.916 faculty members, great teachers and uh in this, in, in Arizona and 00:38:43.949 --> 00:38:48.945 elsewhere. Dave, you were asking about the uh tension in the community 00:38:48.978 --> 00:38:52.736 colleges. Back when I was the Associate Dean of the Business College, we 00:38:52.769 --> 00:38:57.327 had an annual meeting with the community college counterparts, business 00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:01.986 people. And the, the tough issue we had was an accreditation issue because 00:39:02.019 --> 00:39:06.675 part of our core curriculum was taught at the junior level and our 00:39:06.708 --> 00:39:10.186 accreditation people would not let us accept that from the community 00:39:10.219 --> 00:39:14.077 college even though it may have been almost the same course. And we 00:39:14.110 --> 00:39:17.787 struggled with that for a long, long time, uh trying to get the transfer 00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:20.477 but, but we worked with them and, and worked well with the community 00:39:20.510 --> 00:39:24.807 colleges during that time period. That was back in the seventies. I've 00:39:24.840 --> 00:39:30.186 heard that a teaching position at a community college like MC C is quite a 00:39:30.219 --> 00:39:38.219 uh choice position. You uh you get paid well and uh you may teach three or 00:39:38.458 --> 00:39:43.537 four courses a semester but you don't have committees to deal with. And uh 00:39:43.570 --> 00:39:49.747 well, I don't sure that's exactly the case. David. Um most of them teach 00:39:49.780 --> 00:39:55.736 15 hours. That's the regular. So that's five courses and then there are 00:39:55.769 --> 00:40:00.206 responsibilities, you know, they go through uh accreditation 00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:05.217 and there are some committees that they do serve on. They have to advise 00:40:05.250 --> 00:40:09.227 students just like we do at the university, their load of advising 00:40:09.260 --> 00:40:16.436 students may be greater than ours. Um but um they earn their money. I can 00:40:16.469 --> 00:40:19.986 say this, I think for a fact there, I've had students in my class that 00:40:20.019 --> 00:40:25.445 made more money than I did. But then I wasn't the highest paid professor 00:40:25.478 --> 00:40:31.486 at a su never was and never will be. As I wrote in a little note that I 00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:36.727 hope they'll put in our newsletter over in the Americas College. I am the 00:40:36.760 --> 00:40:44.760 one of the few unpaid employees of the university. So, uh, as, as the dean 00:40:44.969 --> 00:40:51.376 and, uh, so I've never had a lot of money in my life but, uh, always had a 00:40:51.409 --> 00:40:55.827 good time 00:40:55.860 --> 00:40:59.155 now with all your work on community colleges and, and that sort of thing. 00:40:59.188 --> 00:41:03.256 You also were deeply involved in a lot of dissertation, uh, committees 00:41:03.289 --> 00:41:08.666 and you wanna tell us a little bit about that. We had some interesting 00:41:08.699 --> 00:41:14.925 ones. Um, uh, I, I think I've been the author of some dissertations along 00:41:14.958 --> 00:41:18.186 the line, maybe one or two. 00:41:18.219 --> 00:41:22.925 um, uh, I don't know whether you've had that same experience or not, but, 00:41:22.958 --> 00:41:25.836 you know, you get students involved in a program and they get up to the 00:41:25.869 --> 00:41:29.836 dissertation state and you find out that they aren't really, very good 00:41:29.869 --> 00:41:35.816 writers. So you have to edit, right. Uh, quite heavily. I did have, uh, I 00:41:35.849 --> 00:41:39.856 have one student that I just like to point out he just as retired as 00:41:39.889 --> 00:41:44.327 president of Rockingham Community College in North Carolina. And prior to 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:48.827 that, he was, uh, President Grant, John Woods Community College in, in 00:41:48.860 --> 00:41:56.860 Illinois. Um, and his name is Bob Keys and I just visited him last month. 00:41:57.260 --> 00:42:04.227 Uh, he's retired but, um, he's, he's been very much involved in North 00:42:04.260 --> 00:42:08.727 Carolina. In fact, he was the president of our community college group and 00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:13.885 really uh an outstanding student and his contributions I think are, are 00:42:13.918 --> 00:42:17.686 monumental to North Carolina. So I'm very pleased that I had a chance to 00:42:17.719 --> 00:42:21.236 work with him. I also had another student and we used to get a lot of 00:42:21.269 --> 00:42:25.327 nursing students because they didn't have a doctoral program at a SU and 00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:29.467 so they'd come over and get on our doctoral program because they do. Most 00:42:29.500 --> 00:42:32.595 of them knew they were gonna be involved in colleges and university 00:42:32.628 --> 00:42:38.217 teaching. So, and administration as far as the programs were concerned. 00:42:38.250 --> 00:42:46.155 And uh I had one student whose name was Dolores Santora. And uh because 00:42:46.188 --> 00:42:49.827 their son Arthur 00:42:49.860 --> 00:42:55.635 thought Santora sounded too mafioso, they changed their name to Sands. So 00:42:55.668 --> 00:43:02.666 her name is just Dolores fans today. She was the, for a number of years 00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:07.896 was Dean of the College of Nursing at the University of Texas and she just 00:43:07.929 --> 00:43:11.537 retired. So, I'm also very proud of her accomplishments. I remember that 00:43:11.570 --> 00:43:18.537 name actually. And, uh, she was also on the faculty here. Um, and, uh, 00:43:18.570 --> 00:43:22.856 let's see, I'm, I'm trying to think of others that I, so you had, did you 00:43:22.889 --> 00:43:26.827 ever count how many, uh, dissertation committees you had a privilege of 00:43:26.860 --> 00:43:32.376 serving on? Oh, well, if you're talking about serving on committees, I was 00:43:32.409 --> 00:43:35.307 probably on, 00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:38.546 probably on about three or four dozen of them. You know, I just know, I've 00:43:38.579 --> 00:43:42.577 never, I've never kept track of it. You obviously had an impact on a lot 00:43:42.610 --> 00:43:45.655 of, a lot of people's lives as they were coming through the program. So. 00:43:45.688 --> 00:43:49.646 Well, you know, that's the amazing thing about uh teaching anywhere. If 00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:54.456 you don't know what impact you've had on people's lives sometimes, you 00:43:54.489 --> 00:43:58.186 know, I've had students as you have that have come up and said, you know, 00:43:58.219 --> 00:44:03.776 you made the difference and, and, uh, and in the way I've approached 00:44:03.809 --> 00:44:08.675 things and, um, um, that's a compliment. It makes it all worthwhile, 00:44:08.708 --> 00:44:13.836 doesn't it? It does. That's right. Um, and we never know about all those 00:44:13.869 --> 00:44:18.836 that we might have influenced, but it's, it's really a precious and I say 00:44:18.869 --> 00:44:25.037 precious position to be able to teach because, um, the folks are captive, 00:44:25.070 --> 00:44:31.646 whether they're drinking or not. And uh you, you do have the opportunity 00:44:31.679 --> 00:44:36.807 to influence people and hopefully through their activities as well as 00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:40.695 yours because, you know, you can't, I'm not sure that lectures alone. I 00:44:40.728 --> 00:44:46.217 know I wasn't an outstanding lecturer and lectures alone. Don't uh move 00:44:46.250 --> 00:44:50.796 people always. But uh when you get them involved and you interact with 00:44:50.829 --> 00:44:57.345 them, then there is a value there that uh is almost uh it's difficult, um 00:44:57.378 --> 00:45:02.526 maybe impossible to measure. 00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:06.436 Well, as, as you look over your years from 1970 when you came here until 00:45:06.469 --> 00:45:11.186 now, uh how, how would you characterize the changes in a su uh, during 00:45:11.219 --> 00:45:17.405 that time period? Really great when I came Christine Wilkinson who's now 00:45:17.438 --> 00:45:23.467 the secretary of the university was a student of ours and in higher ed, 00:45:23.500 --> 00:45:28.537 and then she went through all the chairs to the director of Admissions and 00:45:28.570 --> 00:45:33.856 then, um, on up the ladder and vice president for Student Affairs, that 00:45:33.889 --> 00:45:40.445 sort of thing. Uh, it's just changed a and to some extent, it's changed 00:45:40.478 --> 00:45:45.296 for the good. I know because we're serving more students and we're, we're 00:45:45.329 --> 00:45:50.497 , uh, looking at better ways to serve them and we're wanting to take care 00:45:50.530 --> 00:45:56.595 of the, the earth that we live on. And the president has a very strong 00:45:56.628 --> 00:46:04.628 emphasis on that, uh, and, and, and renewing uh, our planet. But, uh, it 00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:11.006 also gets so big that it's almost difficult to, to handle all of it. And, 00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:17.436 uh, I don't, it, it's marvelous that he can do that because, um, I don't 00:46:17.469 --> 00:46:22.106 think very many people could keep their hands on everything going on, uh, 00:46:22.139 --> 00:46:26.497 on this campus. And of course, we've expanded the, we not, we had the west 00:46:26.530 --> 00:46:32.836 campus for a while. But, but, uh, now we've got, um, the east campus and 00:46:32.869 --> 00:46:37.736 the downtown campus and, uh, I must confess, I've never been on the 00:46:37.769 --> 00:46:40.686 downtown campus. 00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:44.425 I didn't know my word is, we'll put that on your list of things to do is 00:46:44.458 --> 00:46:50.046 the new Dean of the Emeritus College? I do. What kind of advice would you 00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:54.106 give to young people of choosing their college and their careers and that 00:46:54.139 --> 00:46:58.376 sort of thing? You've, you've dealt with so many of them over your career. 00:46:58.409 --> 00:47:02.876 Well, I, I think they quite obviously you need to do a lot of research on 00:47:02.909 --> 00:47:08.267 , on what's going on nationally, internationally. When you begin to look 00:47:08.300 --> 00:47:12.517 at the possible kinds of training you want if you're going to enter 00:47:12.550 --> 00:47:18.066 college or you, uh, or even if you're there now, um, the world is a 00:47:18.099 --> 00:47:24.436 changing place and of course, technology has been highly emphasized and I 00:47:24.469 --> 00:47:32.236 guess we all cannot escape it. Um, but, uh, that's, that's one thing and 00:47:32.269 --> 00:47:38.896 then it seems to me don't be afraid to take chances. Um, as we grow older 00:47:38.929 --> 00:47:43.686 , we don't like to risk things but, and when you're younger you can't 00:47:43.719 --> 00:47:51.719 afford to risk some of those, uh, uh, those, um, decisions. And that's one 00:47:52.159 --> 00:47:55.646 thing I would say, don't be afraid, don't be afraid to dream, don't be 00:47:55.679 --> 00:48:02.166 afraid to risk. Um, because literally in many respects, everything is 00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:09.236 possible. Um, if you want to work at it. Uh, and you have a clever, you 00:48:09.269 --> 00:48:13.566 can carve out a clever niche. You'll probably be successful. Well, you've 00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:17.247 taken some of those risks and, uh, many of those have resulted in a lot of 00:48:17.280 --> 00:48:21.186 positive things, uh, for the community colleges, for Arizona State 00:48:21.219 --> 00:48:25.517 University, for a lot of doctoral students. And, uh, and many other 00:48:25.550 --> 00:48:28.776 friends that you've, uh, you've touched their lives and you're going to 00:48:28.809 --> 00:48:32.787 continue to do that now as Dean of the Emeritus College, your, your newest 00:48:32.820 --> 00:48:39.686 uh charge that starts here in a few days. So, yeah. Well, that's true. 00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:43.057 If you were to uh look back over your career, what do you think some of 00:48:43.090 --> 00:48:48.626 the most interesting achievements overall? Is that, or is that, or there 00:48:48.659 --> 00:48:54.655 are too many to count or? I'm, I'd rather, I, I can count. Uh, uh, I've 00:48:54.688 --> 00:49:01.296 had too many failures to count. But, um, um, well, you know, I, I, it's 00:49:01.329 --> 00:49:06.856 really difficult for me to say there, you, you get elated uh, on a lot of 00:49:06.889 --> 00:49:14.445 things that happened. Um, but I, I would be hard pressed to say there was 00:49:14.478 --> 00:49:19.936 something that really stood out and my wife stands out in my mind because 00:49:19.969 --> 00:49:24.385 she stood behind me all this time. That's probably the best way to put it. 00:49:24.418 --> 00:49:27.836 What, what do you think uh, has given you the most satisfaction in your 00:49:27.869 --> 00:49:31.046 career here? 00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:35.736 Well, uh just being associated with the university, the people I've met 00:49:35.769 --> 00:49:41.526 and the friends I have, I, I'm not one to have a lot of close friends but 00:49:41.559 --> 00:49:46.416 I have a lot of friends and, uh, they give me a lot of joy when I hear 00:49:46.449 --> 00:49:51.017 about them and what they're doing. Um, I had a surprising thing happened 00:49:51.050 --> 00:49:56.796 to me this week. In fact, um, Dick Richardson, who was, uh, the chair of 00:49:56.829 --> 00:50:02.486 our department and, um, for a good many years and left, uh, retired, 00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:07.816 actually went to New York and did some more writing and study. I got an 00:50:07.849 --> 00:50:14.376 email from him. He uh he retired to Pagosa Springs, Colorado, but he also 00:50:14.409 --> 00:50:19.595 , I guess, has a place here and I got the nicest email from him the other 00:50:19.628 --> 00:50:24.655 day and uh I was very pleased by it. I wrote back and I think maybe we'll 00:50:24.688 --> 00:50:29.526 get a chance to get together. That's great. Uh Unfortunately, when we were 00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:34.396 faculty colleagues, we were never very close. But uh this, this seems to 00:50:34.429 --> 00:50:39.845 be changing time heals a lot of things. That's right. Is there any uh any 00:50:39.878 --> 00:50:45.327 special individual or uh others that uh that had an impact on your career 00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:51.546 uh Either here or, or prior to coming here? Well, of course, cc culvert at 00:50:51.579 --> 00:50:56.467 Texas had a big impression on me. And then another man that was at Fort 00:50:56.500 --> 00:51:00.217 Hayes, a man by the name of Kirk Naylor eventually became president of, I 00:51:00.250 --> 00:51:04.896 think what at that time was called the University of Omaha and not 00:51:04.929 --> 00:51:12.236 subsequently I think has become the University of Nebraska at Omaha. Um So 00:51:12.269 --> 00:51:18.095 those people I think had a lot to, to influence me, I've had influences by 00:51:18.128 --> 00:51:23.997 people who are not involved in education. My grandmother won and she, she 00:51:24.030 --> 00:51:29.787 was a great influence on my life. She stood about 4 ft seven and she 00:51:29.820 --> 00:51:37.820 wielded a mean broom. Um, and she wrote poems uh to John Kennedy when he 00:51:37.898 --> 00:51:41.425 was president and she had never graduated from high school, but she was 00:51:41.458 --> 00:51:46.595 very much into writing and, and uh we have an old fashioned Christmas, 00:51:46.628 --> 00:51:53.796 which is a poem that she wrote about her childhood. And uh so I just, I 00:51:53.829 --> 00:52:00.066 owe her a lot. Those wonderful memories are they? Yeah. 00:52:00.099 --> 00:52:04.316 Did any of, you know, Roger Axford? Yes. 00:52:04.349 --> 00:52:11.865 Now you, you Roger in many respects, was difficult to understand and 00:52:11.898 --> 00:52:17.845 difficult to know. But he did some very good things and he did a favor for 00:52:17.878 --> 00:52:22.356 me one time. He was on our faculty when I was here and he was interested 00:52:22.389 --> 00:52:29.006 of course in retirement. But one evening for about two hours, he got us uh 00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:36.456 together in the upper room of the university club and he got Steve Allen 00:52:36.489 --> 00:52:43.956 to come over and spend that time with us. He played the piano. He talked 00:52:43.989 --> 00:52:48.537 about some of the, the things he'd written, he talked about being on 00:52:48.570 --> 00:52:54.336 national television and that was a very re ring enriching experience. In 00:52:54.369 --> 00:52:58.787 fact, that's one of the things I I really appreciated Roger for doing that. 00:52:58.820 --> 00:53:02.606 There were some things that Roger did I didn't appreciate. But that's one 00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:06.956 thing uh that I do remember about him. What was the connection between 00:53:06.989 --> 00:53:11.856 Roger and Steve Allen? Was it Steve a student of his? No, no, I think he 00:53:11.889 --> 00:53:17.287 just, uh probably through communications. Maybe send him one of his 00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:21.736 publications, uh like Shifting Gears before you're over the hill or 00:53:21.769 --> 00:53:27.256 something like that. Um But he got to know him. Of course, Steve, you know 00:53:27.289 --> 00:53:32.586 , is from Phoenix. So there are, I don't know how he did it, but, you know 00:53:32.619 --> 00:53:39.077 , Roger was always found ways to get things done. He wasn't shy, he was 00:53:39.110 --> 00:53:45.986 not shy and, and Alan seemed very pleased to do it. And there were about 00:53:46.019 --> 00:53:50.077 40 of us, I think from the college of education up there that night. It 00:53:50.110 --> 00:53:53.497 was a very rewarding experience. 00:53:53.530 --> 00:53:57.615 He died, unfortunately, a year after that. 00:53:57.648 --> 00:54:04.086 But I always like watching him on The Tonight Show. Yeah, he was good. He 00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:08.686 was good. He was excellent, good. And he could write, he wrote songs, he 00:54:08.719 --> 00:54:15.066 wrote books and he did have a, then they have these three fellows on there. 00:54:15.099 --> 00:54:19.477 Don Knotts was one of them. Uh And he'd interview them and it was 00:54:19.510 --> 00:54:24.756 nonsensical, but it was entertaining. And uh the man on the street. Yeah, 00:54:24.789 --> 00:54:29.816 man on the street 00:54:29.849 --> 00:54:35.506 now, uh you said you came in 1970 then uh your, your first retirement was 00:54:35.539 --> 00:54:40.606 in 95. Is that correct? I, my retirement from full time teaching was 90 it 00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:46.526 was 1995. But for about six years after that I was an adjunct. They, they 00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:51.356 would let me teach a course or to a semester. And I enjoyed that was able 00:54:51.389 --> 00:54:57.695 to keep my hand in. And then, uh, most of the people that were in the 00:54:57.728 --> 00:55:05.217 department either went to other colleges or they retired to, I can't 00:55:05.250 --> 00:55:08.807 remember. I don't think, well, maybe some of them may have died, but I 00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:14.106 don't think so. And, uh, so I thought, well, you know, I'd like a little 00:55:14.139 --> 00:55:22.139 different, uh, take on life. So I, I saw an ad in the paper, um, by Veolia 00:55:23.530 --> 00:55:28.727 Transportation that operates all the buses and dial rides and all that 00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:34.655 sort of thing in the Phoenix area. They're a French company. So I applied 00:55:34.688 --> 00:55:42.688 and they put me through a commercial driver's um, license program and I 00:55:42.728 --> 00:55:47.416 thought I was gonna start driving city buses, which didn't really throw me 00:55:47.449 --> 00:55:53.006 a lot. But then they asked if I was interested in the di program which was 00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:57.756 taking people that were challenged or aged, uh to places they couldn't go 00:55:57.789 --> 00:56:03.425 without that. And I did that and I, I did that for five years and then got 00:56:03.458 --> 00:56:07.477 fired from the job simply because they didn't get their contract renewed. 00:56:07.510 --> 00:56:13.126 And now it belongs to discount cab. So on June, the 30th, I got fired for 00:56:13.159 --> 00:56:16.537 the first time. Actually the second time because I got fired once from the 00:56:16.570 --> 00:56:20.925 US Postal Department because the gate closed on me when I was doing, I was 00:56:20.958 --> 00:56:26.146 doing some Christmas stuff and the gate closed on me. And if you're a part 00:56:26.179 --> 00:56:31.456 time employee and you have an accident, why you have no appeal, you're 00:56:31.489 --> 00:56:34.905 gone. I, I assume you were in a vehicle when the gate closed. I was in a 00:56:34.938 --> 00:56:38.836 vehicle. I was in a, in a van at the time taking some mail to one of the 00:56:38.869 --> 00:56:41.776 post offices in Mesa. 00:56:41.809 --> 00:56:46.126 What other volunteer work have you been involved in? Well, as this 00:56:46.159 --> 00:56:50.467 certainly imply, it doesn't stand for a su it stands for Arizona State 00:56:50.500 --> 00:56:56.606 Credit Union and I was on its board for 27 years and I am now the first 00:56:56.639 --> 00:57:02.155 emeritus director of that. I still have a little travel budget. I went to 00:57:02.188 --> 00:57:06.066 a meeting at uh in Nashville, North Carolina recently about community 00:57:06.099 --> 00:57:11.586 colleges and volunteerism and that sort of thing. Community colleges are 00:57:11.619 --> 00:57:17.776 changing. So they are competing with banks just like uh like nothing. I 00:57:17.809 --> 00:57:22.986 mean, they're, they, they're, they are becoming almost full service banks. 00:57:23.019 --> 00:57:27.037 The unfortunate thing, the economic situation won't let them really pay a 00:57:27.070 --> 00:57:32.155 lot of dividends, but then banks aren't either. So, but anyway, um I've, 00:57:32.188 --> 00:57:38.206 I've really cherished that relationship and uh wait a minute, Quentin, you 00:57:38.239 --> 00:57:43.827 said you went to Asheville, North Carolina or Community Colleges? No. Um 00:57:43.860 --> 00:57:49.206 No, I went there for credit union for credit Credit union. Did I? Well, I 00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:55.967 apologize. Whomever looks at this, uh, video, I apologize to them. I went 00:57:56.000 --> 00:58:02.646 there for, uh, the, uh, uh, the, the National Federation or, or the 00:58:02.679 --> 00:58:08.425 National Association of Federally Chartered Community Colleges Credit 00:58:08.458 --> 00:58:15.217 Union Credit Union. I've got credit. You see how, well, still community 00:58:15.250 --> 00:58:18.186 colleges have been such an important part of your life that, uh, that's 00:58:18.219 --> 00:58:26.135 certainly get it off my brain. Uh, can't wipe it clear. 00:58:26.168 --> 00:58:30.425 And, uh I also understand that you were involved with the A su retirees 00:58:30.458 --> 00:58:36.206 association as president for a year. And on that board, I was on the 00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:43.695 council and delighted to, uh, now, are you talking about a sur a? Oh, well 00:58:43.728 --> 00:58:50.126 , I was president 10 years ago when Michael Crow came on as our president 00:58:50.159 --> 00:58:56.506 and at that time, some, some really great people had established the, the 00:58:56.539 --> 00:59:03.307 , the A sur a, however, it had never gotten official. We sort of had 00:59:03.340 --> 00:59:08.727 unofficial status within the university. And so when Michael came, we use 00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:15.077 that opportunity to get with him and say, hey, can you help us? And, and 00:59:15.110 --> 00:59:22.066 he did? And uh he said, why don't you use the parents club model and um, 00:59:22.099 --> 00:59:26.936 do that, use that? And, and, and we did so we got that accomplished. I 00:59:26.969 --> 00:59:34.969 felt very good about that and I hope others did too good, good. 00:59:35.219 --> 00:59:39.186 Now, in addition to the A su Retirees Association, I understand you've 00:59:39.219 --> 00:59:43.595 also uh, were involved early on in the, uh Emeritus College. Probably 00:59:43.628 --> 00:59:48.615 making the biggest mistake of my life on the first of July, I'm supposed 00:59:48.648 --> 00:59:55.445 to become Dean of the, uh Emeritus College and, uh, I look forward to it. 00:59:55.478 --> 01:00:03.478 It's an honor. Um, I hope to, uh, continue the good work that, uh, that, 01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:11.655 uh, Dick Jacob and, uh, Lynn Gordon have begun. I'm going to need a lot of 01:00:11.688 --> 01:00:17.425 help. I'm very uninitiated. I'm sure your experience will, uh, will serve 01:00:17.458 --> 01:00:22.586 you well, in that role, uh I'm beginning to realize how great that role is. 01:00:22.619 --> 01:00:26.146 Uh, as you probably know because you're the, uh, you're the, uh, uh, 01:00:26.179 --> 01:00:31.557 associate dean and, and, uh, we've had some conversations about that. 01:00:31.590 --> 01:00:35.916 That's correct. We have and we'll have more, I'm sure I'll look for a lot 01:00:35.949 --> 01:00:40.675 more and hopefully they'll be, I'll, I'll look forward to those. I'm sure 01:00:40.708 --> 01:00:46.057 I like to have fun and we've already had a little fun getting a cart, a 01:00:46.090 --> 01:00:52.175 new cart for the, uh, you got your own electric car. We got it, we got the 01:00:52.208 --> 01:00:55.686 Provost office gave it to, it's bigger than the one they had. He was very 01:00:55.719 --> 01:01:01.865 successful. It was eight passenger, uh, 66 passenger. And, uh, I'll be 01:01:01.898 --> 01:01:06.206 honest with you, I had to do some dirty tricks to get it. I sent it, you 01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:13.227 know, we report to, uh, a chap by the name of Barry Richie. He's, he's, oh 01:01:13.260 --> 01:01:18.925 , he's a vice. Provost vice for personnel 01:01:18.958 --> 01:01:23.506 and we report to him, the college reports to him and then ultimately to 01:01:23.539 --> 01:01:30.956 the provost, but I did send, uh, our old cart was in such bad shape and I 01:01:30.989 --> 01:01:34.776 was afraid they were going to give us another hand me down, which they did 01:01:34.809 --> 01:01:39.166 do. But this was a lovely hand me down. So I just told him about the story 01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:45.546 when I was little. My grandmother wanted me to wear my sister's underwear. 01:01:45.579 --> 01:01:50.666 And so that was my story, my sister's underwear and um I, I hope to shame 01:01:50.699 --> 01:01:58.227 him by making him think I did afterwards. 01:01:58.260 --> 01:02:01.416 So we hope to have a few things like that. I said later on, we'll get to 01:02:01.449 --> 01:02:05.115 Michael, 01:02:05.148 --> 01:02:08.287 tell us more about your family. So, uh we get kind of a perspective of 01:02:08.320 --> 01:02:16.320 that as well. Well, um our first child was born on December the 7th, 1953. 01:02:17.820 --> 01:02:19.820 We were born, uh, we were married in 1952 in April in case you want to 01:02:23.289 --> 01:02:29.456 figure that out. Um And uh he was a wonderful child. We really loved him. 01:02:29.489 --> 01:02:34.655 And then my first job came along in Ohio and uh my wife was teaching, she 01:02:34.688 --> 01:02:39.695 , you know, like a lot of wives, she, she supported their husband and 01:02:39.728 --> 01:02:46.146 while I went to school and, uh, but I did get a job and she was completing 01:02:46.179 --> 01:02:51.385 her contract there, but she was pregnant. And uh, so shortly after we 01:02:51.418 --> 01:02:56.146 moved to Ohio, Tiffin, Ohio, uh where Heidelberg College is, and where I 01:02:56.179 --> 01:03:02.155 was employed, um she gave birth to twins. We had no idea we were going to 01:03:02.188 --> 01:03:08.376 have twins. But um the doctor whose name was Quentin B Smith came out of 01:03:08.409 --> 01:03:13.997 the uh delivery room and he said, Quentin, uh your wife and two sons are 01:03:14.030 --> 01:03:17.747 doing well. And I, of course I did a double take, I don't think I fainted. 01:03:17.780 --> 01:03:23.635 But anyway, it was a, it was a, a, an interesting experience. And of 01:03:23.668 --> 01:03:27.405 course, you have one twin that dominates the other. And we went through 01:03:27.438 --> 01:03:32.646 things like getting uh my wife and the older boy, oldest boy in the uh 01:03:32.679 --> 01:03:38.316 locked in the basement doing washing. So, uh he had to be put out of the 01:03:38.349 --> 01:03:42.905 window and open the door so they could get out of the basement and, you 01:03:42.938 --> 01:03:46.405 know, things like that that went on. But it was a very interesting and 01:03:46.438 --> 01:03:52.365 rewarding experience. Um They're uh they're all men, of course. And they, 01:03:52.398 --> 01:03:58.166 in fact, they're uh their past middle age, one of them is working on a 01:03:58.199 --> 01:04:03.586 doctorate through uh Liberty University. He has been a religious worker 01:04:03.619 --> 01:04:07.816 almost all his life. He's an ordained minister. He's producing some video 01:04:07.849 --> 01:04:15.849 , he's produced DVD s on Islam and Jehovah's Witnesses and, and Mormonism. 01:04:16.349 --> 01:04:23.106 And uh he's now established his own private religious foundation and he 01:04:23.139 --> 01:04:28.666 is, uh he again is like the Catholic priest. He's been just above the 01:04:28.699 --> 01:04:34.896 poverty line all his life and he happened to have the largest family. So 01:04:34.929 --> 01:04:42.929 uh we get to, we get the privilege of um of uh of, of helping him probably 01:04:43.668 --> 01:04:49.836 a little more than the other boys. Uh uh uh They all went for at least one 01:04:49.869 --> 01:04:54.885 year to a SS U. Uh the oldest one tested out of a year and then went to a 01:04:54.918 --> 01:05:00.557 SU then went to NAU got a degree in forestry and promptly uh started 01:05:00.590 --> 01:05:06.115 working Chris with Christian workers in colleges. And, uh, then our second 01:05:06.148 --> 01:05:13.217 , our older twin, uh, is a CPA in Brownsville, Texas. He got his, uh, his 01:05:13.250 --> 01:05:20.166 CPA and his MB A from Arizona State. And then we have, uh, an, another son 01:05:20.199 --> 01:05:26.365 , Steve who's a, uh, planner scheduler at, for Boeing in Mesa and he got 01:05:26.398 --> 01:05:31.276 his degree in business at a SU. So, and he was the only one that went to a 01:05:31.309 --> 01:05:36.086 community college for which I'm grateful. Well, I'm sure that, uh, you and 01:05:36.119 --> 01:05:40.327 your wife are very proud of him that we're proud of all of them. And, uh, 01:05:40.360 --> 01:05:44.365 how many grandchildren now? Oh, heavens, let's see. I think we have eight 01:05:44.398 --> 01:05:46.736 grandchildren. 01:05:46.769 --> 01:05:50.327 Yeah, I think we have a grand grandchildren. That's good. Only two boys 01:05:50.360 --> 01:05:53.747 though to carry on the name. So, and how many great grandchildren do you 01:05:53.780 --> 01:06:01.329 have? 99? Ok. All right. That's good. Well, I know that I know of anyway. 01:06:04.409 --> 01:06:06.409 Well, you had some, you had some interesting deans and associate deans 01:06:09.079 --> 01:06:13.276 over there that we did. Bill. Hes and I owned an airplane together. Oh, 01:06:13.309 --> 01:06:17.267 were you part of that? Oh, he took me, he took me flying in that once he 01:06:17.300 --> 01:06:21.037 did. It was a beautiful little airplane, was loved it. He took very good 01:06:21.070 --> 01:06:24.217 care of it. No, this wasn't a piper. This was a Grumman Tiger. Grumman 01:06:24.250 --> 01:06:27.675 Tiger. That's right. That's what it was. Grumman Tiger Tiger on the side 01:06:27.708 --> 01:06:32.247 of it. I remember that. I was kind of embarrassed because I was, I'd, I'd 01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:35.037 seen the airplane and I just left a note and I said, are you interested in 01:06:35.070 --> 01:06:40.646 a partner? Because I like Grumman. And he, uh, he got a hold of me and he 01:06:40.679 --> 01:06:46.376 said, yeah, I'd be happy to do that. So, um, I paid him half interest in 01:06:46.409 --> 01:06:53.767 it and, um, he, we, he said, well, II, I need to check you out. So we went 01:06:53.800 --> 01:06:58.327 for a little flight, we went up to Prescott and we landed at the airport 01:06:58.360 --> 01:07:02.546 up in Prescott. And, uh, I think he had a cup of coffee. He said, ok, well 01:07:02.579 --> 01:07:09.227 , why don't you take off? And I, I did and I couldn't, I just, I couldn't 01:07:09.260 --> 01:07:13.666 get it to climb. And he said, well, you know, you might try putting the 01:07:13.699 --> 01:07:19.376 flaps down a little. I said, you'll get some lift that one. And here the 01:07:19.409 --> 01:07:23.845 guy who's gonna take me in as a partner and I hadn't even lifted the flaps 01:07:23.878 --> 01:07:29.626 up on. Well, it must have been an upgraded airplane that had flaps. Most 01:07:29.659 --> 01:07:33.997 small planes don't have flaps. It was, it was a nice plane. Yeah, it was 01:07:34.030 --> 01:07:37.577 very nice. The student of mine or this former student of mine from North 01:07:37.610 --> 01:07:42.095 Carolina. He was so impressed by the fact that I had a license that he, uh 01:07:42.128 --> 01:07:46.206 , he, he had an uncle who had an airplane and he got the uncle to sell on 01:07:46.239 --> 01:07:50.956 the airplane and he still has it. It's a nice little piper and he still 01:07:50.989 --> 01:07:56.186 flies it around. Yeah. So I guess maybe that's an impact I had on one 01:07:56.219 --> 01:07:59.456 person. There you go. There you go. Where did you learn how to fly? Where 01:07:59.489 --> 01:08:05.385 did you get your license? I got my license at Tim's Air Park and, um, 01:08:05.418 --> 01:08:12.175 Round Rock Texas while I was working on my phd just outside Austin. And I 01:08:12.208 --> 01:08:15.816 was doing my dissertation on the Tarrant County, the development of the 01:08:15.849 --> 01:08:21.937 Tarrant County community College district. And so I'd, I wanted to get it 01:08:21.970 --> 01:08:29.446 so I could fly up and back to Fort Worth. Um, and I did. But, yeah, that's 01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:34.206 where I got it. And then when we, we went to, um, Brownsville, we bought a 01:08:34.239 --> 01:08:40.335 plane, uh, that was a Cessna 172 and flew in and out of there every once 01:08:40.368 --> 01:08:46.106 in a while. I had a trustee who was a physician who was drunk most of the 01:08:46.139 --> 01:08:52.174 time. And he, he insisted on going, uh, you know, in in Texas, you 01:08:52.207 --> 01:08:57.365 legislature meets only every other year to appropriate funds. And of 01:08:57.398 --> 01:09:02.925 course, we needed funds from the legislature. So, uh, he, he decided he 01:09:02.958 --> 01:09:09.196 wanted to go up with me and I couldn't deny him. Uh, and so we went one 01:09:09.229 --> 01:09:13.675 time and it was raining up in Austin and he wanted to come back and I said 01:09:13.708 --> 01:09:20.745 , no way we're not gonna go anywhere. Uh, and, uh, we didn't, so there's 01:09:20.778 --> 01:09:24.365 no way I'm gonna fly down there in the rain because I'm not instrument 01:09:24.398 --> 01:09:29.455 rated. I'm a nice sunshine pilot and I do know how to do 100 and 80 degree 01:09:29.488 --> 01:09:35.175 turn if I get into problems. And so, yeah, that was our first airplane. 01:09:35.208 --> 01:09:39.817 Then we learn, owned a little Grumman Yankee and then we had an old, old 01:09:39.850 --> 01:09:47.805 bonanza and then we had the, the, uh, partnership with, uh, with the, on 01:09:47.838 --> 01:09:51.055 the Grumman and it was the neatest. I like it. It was the neatest, it 01:09:51.088 --> 01:09:55.076 wasn't a high performance airplane, but it was a neat little airplane. I 01:09:55.109 --> 01:10:00.046 wanna thank you very much for, uh, for the interview and I thank you Linda 01:10:00.079 --> 01:10:05.095 for including me. I'm kind of just an average guy who had some rather 01:10:05.128 --> 01:10:10.796 interesting experiences and, and, uh, some, some memorable ones and I hope 01:10:10.829 --> 01:10:15.885 I've been able to, well, you, uh, it's been, it's been a real pleasure to 01:10:15.918 --> 01:10:19.696 , to chat with you this morning and to, uh, hear about your, your life, 01:10:19.729 --> 01:10:22.647 your career. And all of the impact that you've had on a lot of people and 01:10:22.680 --> 01:10:26.326 , uh, and still continue to have. So, uh, we, we appreciate your 01:10:26.359 --> 01:10:29.109 willingness to do this.