Today is June 27th, 2013. And we're conducting an interview for the
Arizona State University Retirees Association Video History project. We're
located today in the A SU Community Services building. My name is Elmer
Gooding. And our technical support staff today uh includes John mcintosh,
uh who's running the cameras and doing the audio and uh Dave shots, who's
the director and also with us is uh Linda Vanscoy. Linda is the chair of
our uh a sur a video history project and we have a special guest with us
today and uh I'm gonna ask him to introduce himself and tell us your name
and uh and the various positions you've held at a SU and then later, we'll
go back into more detail about some of the positions. All right. Well, I'm
, my name is Quentin Bogart and I was a member of the Faculty of
Educational Leadership and Policy Studies when I came here, it was called
the Center for the Study of Higher Education. My specialty was community
Colleges and I came in 1970 and I am now an emeritus professor. Thank
heaven.
Well, to begin with, uh why don't we go all the way back and tell our
viewers about your background where you were born and your family and
growing up and that sort of thing. Well, I was born in the area of the
smoked car wheel. So I grew up in, uh, I was born in Quincy, Illinois and
grew up in a little town outside called Menden, Illinois. And I enjoyed
the dirt that was collected on the spokes of the car wheel at a very young
age and uh seem to enjoy small time town living. However, my father, uh my
mother was my father's second wife, his first wife passed away and my
mother had taught Latin and Greek and English at the local township high
school. So, um he passed away of pneumonia in 1934 when I was four years
old and my mother had to go back to teaching. And it was very interesting
at that time. If you were a widowed woman, you got paid the same as a
single woman teacher, the men all all got more, even if they were widowed
, they got uh more anyway, she uh she took the opportunity to go back to,
she had graduated from Granell College. So she decided to go to the State
University of Iowa at Iowa City and get a master's degree, which she did.
So then we lived in various small towns. Uh but we did live in Des Moines
for a while, but we lived in small towns in Iowa and finally wound up in
Marion Iowa, which was outside Cedar Rapids, a suburb. And I went through
grade school there. And when uh World War Two broke out why, uh the men
were all called to duty. So my mother uh received a position at uh James
Milliken University in Decatur, Illinois. And uh we moved there. I went
through uh middle school as they call it today, junior high there. And
then when the war came to, well, at least when her position and the person
that held her position came back, we moved to Austin, Minnesota. Uh, and,
um, I went to high school there until my junior year when she went to
Hayes Kansas on the faculty of Fort Hayes Kansas State College at that
time. And, uh, I finished high school there. Um, I don't know whether you
want me to go on but, uh, for the educational steps, go ahead. Go ahead
with your education, how, how you progress through that all the way up to
your phd. Well, I started, uh, I started at Fort Hayes. Um, it was, uh,
economically feasible for me to do that. And, uh, but, uh, and my mother,
um, after being there a couple of years, let's see, we moved there in 47 I
graduated from high school in 48. In 1950. She received a, um, a Fulbright
scholarship to or fellowship or whatever they were exchanges, I guess, um
, to England and she and my sister went to England and my grandmother who
was keeping house for us. And I stayed there and then Corea started, then
I entered the Navy, um, and went to Pensacola, uh, which interrupted my
college career. And when I came back, I was married, um, my wife was from
the same town I was, and we met in college. But, but, uh, then I went into
the service and, and one thing led to another, finally our marriage and we
, and so when I came back, uh, we lived in a veterans village and we, we,
uh, I went to Fort Hayes, finished a bachelor of arts degree there. I
majored in speech and English. And then I went on and got my master's
again because it was economically feasible. I went on and got my master's
degree in, uh, school administration and psychometrics
served a little private two year college down in the mountains of eastern
Kentucky called Alice Lloyd College. Really? And we were there three years.
In fact, I was with Olive at college up in Michigan and our president who
was very difficult man to serve. I was assistant to the president, a very
difficult man to serve. Um, I said to him, you know, I need to start going
summers and working on my doctorate and he said there's no way you can do
that here. I don't think he was hinting that I should leave. But, uh, he
told me that they needed me in the summer and I could understand that. So
, a friend of mine who is an educational consultant out of Chicago said,
you know, I have, there's this little college down in Kentucky and they'll
probably let you go to graduate school in the summer time. And, uh, it's
called Alice Lloyd College at a town called Pippa Passos. Well, we went
down and, um, it was winter day when we were interviewing down there and
it wasn't pleasant place or a creek and mainly older buildings. And, um,
anytime you went anywhere you either had to go across the creek or climb a
hill. Our Children were quite small at the time. Our, our boys had just
entered school up in Michigan. So, uh, we, um, we decided we'd do it. Um,
it was really kind of a mission kind of work. And, um, so we went down, we
were there for three years. Alice Lloyd was a lady, um, from the northeast
who, uh, felt she couldn't do much with her life. So she went down there,
I think, to escape. Oh, I don't know, maybe escape society. But anyway,
she decided that she would found a series of schools down there,
elementary schools. But she founded this college called Ky Junior College
and she got her friends to help contribute to the support and so forth.
And she, her idea was to educate these students from the mountains around
there free and, and, uh, give them the experience there in college and
then send them out to places like the University of Kentucky, Morehead
State, Eastern Kentucky and so forth and let them finish their degrees out
there and get, and even if they want to get a medical degree, get a
medical degree out there law degree. So, when I arrived, uh, she had
passed away but not until after she'd been on Ralph Edwards. This is your
life program? Oh, really? I remember that program and when Ralph Edwards,
um, finished the program, he said to the camera, he said, any of you who
are interested in this lady and her wonderful work, just send a dollar to
Alice Lloyd. Well, we had 60,000 people on our mailing list that decided
to send a dollar a dollar, not $5 not. But anyway, it gave us a wonderful
entree and the fellow, the prince of a man who was the president got it by
default. He, he really taught English and he loved Shakespeare, but he
wasn't a, he, he wasn't very social and so it was difficult for him to go
out and meet potential donors and so forth. And so I was brought on board
to be in charge of publications and, and go out and meet potential donors
and try to try to, um, uh gain some support. We got quite a number of
Wilson requests over the time I was there and, um, we of course, this was
during the period that Kennedy got assassinated and an interesting story,
uh, side story. And I don't mean to take up a lot of time on the tape, but
I had lunch in Dayton, Ohio with a young man by the name of Charles
Kettering the third. And his grandfather was one of the big three of
General Motors. Uh, and, uh, he had a foundation and he was, uh, and, and
so we kind of convinced him to give a gift to uh to the college. And he
did, I don't remember what it was 10 or $20,000 but it was a lot of money
at that time. Anyway, uh when I got, when I was a student at the
University of Texas, um the Kellogg Foundation had sponsored us, but they
, uh we got word that they weren't gonna fund our second year. And so I
wrote to him and
he bailed the program out and, but Kellogg came through. So we live pretty
high on the hog as graduate students. Uh I say high on the hog, that
wasn't very much money. But anyway, it was a lot of wonderful thing. And,
and that's one of the experiences I had. I also one of our faculty
mother-in-laws died while we were there and they asked if I'd use our
station wagon as a hearse. And the grounds crew built a little uh coffin
box, like kind of shaped like a mummy deal. And somebody down the, the
road, uh, donated, uh, a, uh, a plot in the family cemetery. And, uh, I'll
tell you when they nailed that lid on that coffin. You know, that's final
because then we put grandma in the back of our station wagon and drove her
down to her final resting place. Uh, we, we did a lot of things, Sarah
that, uh, that you wouldn't do in other places. We took a display to the
Kentucky State Fair and, and uh, students, oh, by the way, the students
all had to wear coats and ties and the girls had to wear white midi
blouses and white pleated skirts. You know what a problem that is Linda to
keep it clean, but they all had to wear them and they got their education
literally free. And when they went out to places like the University of
Kentucky, they were given um, a place to live out there and they were
helped with their tuition there and we had some that came back as dentists
, doctors, lawyers. Um, it was really remarkable achievement. The
endowment was large enough that you didn't have to charge any tuition, the
gifts, just the gift we kept getting. We ha we would I was in charge of
publications. We'd have mailings about four or five times a year, uh, to
this large list. And, uh, we'd get, and at Christmas they had a Christmas
pretty program that they, that's what they called it. The people would
send in either money or they'd send in toys and so forth and we distribute
them to families throughout the area and there was a lot of poverty there.
Um, Pippa passes had a post office and they delivered mail out of that
post office by mule 22 days a week. They would take a mule up the, the, uh
, the valley and they deliver mail in places where they didn't have roads.
And this was in the sixties, late sixties, no, early sixties, but it was
an interesting place. And Pippa passes by the way is the title of a poem
by Robert Browning. You know, God's in His heaven. All's right in the
world. That's what came from it. And I guess Alice Lloyd thought she was a
modern day Pippa who was skipping along on her holiday and enriching the
lives of everybody with whom she came in. Contest. Sound like she
certainly did
a few years later when I found it possible to do so. Um I was given a, a
Kellogg Fellowship to the University of Texas at Austin. And uh I pursued
the phd degree there and uh successfully completed it in 1968.
And so not with honors, but uh I completed it. One of the privileges I had
was I also uh aside from being in this Kellogg Fellowship uh community
college leadership program because community colleges were opening up at
the rate of about one a week. At that time, the, the, the whole system,
the whole idea of the community college was spreading like wildfire fire
throughout the country. And uh I had the Austin did not have a community
college. And so in one of my media classes, I asked the instructor for my
term paper, if I could develop a, a half an hour uh uh documentary on uh
should Austin have a community college? And I did that and I understand
the E TV station there ran it two times. The first time, the vote was
unsuccessful. The second time it was so maybe some people were paying more
attention or perhaps they just got tired of hearing it, but they did
establish community so that maybe it was more compelling the second time
through, I don't know, um having scripted it and uh I narrated it, I don't
know how compelling it was. So did this, this, this then resulted in a
community college being established. Yes, there is. Uh Austin Community
College was established a couple of years after. Well, actually, it was
probably about three years after I left it that the vote went through and
they established the college. Uh Meanwhile, we'd gone to South Texas and
were involved in a border community college down there.
Tell us a little more about that because I knew that, knew that not only
did you study the community colleges, but you were active in the
administrative role in them as well. So, well, the fellow who was my major
professor was a man by the name of CC Culvert. And he had produced
approximately 100 and 50 community college presidents during his tenure at
Texas. And um so I um he decided that I'd be a good spot for me to go
since I've been involved with administration. That uh that sex southmost
was it? Of course, even though I took Spanish as one of my languages uh at
the University of Texas, uh I didn't speak it. Um I can read a little bit
of it, but we went down to the border at Brownsville and the name of the
college was Texas Southmost college that exists today. In fact, they're
going through a rather difficult period with the University of Texas at
Brownsville because they had merged. Uh but Texas South Miss Most kept its
board and uh they had taxing authority, the university didn't. And so uh
the president there who along with our president, Michael Crowe uh was
nominated as one of the 10 best presidents in the United States. The
president down there happened to get into a conflict and the board of
Texas South most said we're parting ways and the unfortunate thing is that
most of their buildings were built with bonds issued under the community
college. So they're in kind of a little predicament. Community college is
gonna start offering courses this school. But I've said more about that.
Than I, what was your role there? I was the president of the college. I
was the third, I think the third president. I, I replaced a very wonderful
man by the name of James Garland. And uh we, we enjoyed it. We immersed
ourselves in the culture of the border. Uh It was a free, sort of a free
fall, free moving border at that time. And you could go over, we'd go over
every Saturday morning and buy some produce and come back and, and uh one
of the few times in our lives, we had a maid and we live very close to the
frontier. We lived in the old commandant's house at Fort Brown. That's
where the college was located. And then we began to make some moves toward
getting the uh Brownsville Compre Compress Company, which was a cotton uh
processing uh area and there were about uh 11 or 12 acres in there. Now,
we did not gain access to it when I was president, but we started our
conversations. I also wanted the University of Texas to come down and set
an upper division up down with us. And Ken Ashworth, who also went on to
the Texas coordinating board as its uh leadership person. Um had a
conversation with me one Christmas on our way up to Kansas because we had
breakfast together. And I said, how about coming into Brownsville? And we
, we'll help you set up an upper division. He said, can't do it. We're
trying to go into Can uh San Antonio and Corpus Christi. And he said,
politically, it just won't work. So it was, excuse me, it wasn't, wasn't
my doing. But years later they did get the University of Texas to put a
division in at Brownsville and became the University of Texas at
Brownsville. How many years were you there? Just two long enough to stay
ahead of the sheriff.
We had a Campo that was given to us by uh uh an I A man that I migrated
from the United States to Mexico and taught there all his life. He gave us
50 hectares. Uh And uh down in the Mount Eastern Mountains of Mexico and
we would take, we, we finally built some uh some buildings down there and
we had a girl's dorm and a boys dorm. We had some individual cabins. We
had a, a classroom dining hall and it was, it took four wheel drive
vehicles, three hours to get up from the high highway down below, up to uh
this, this Rancho del cielo. They got 100 and 50 some inches of rain a
year only. They got it in six months of the year. Orchids grew on trees.
It was explained to me that by the lady who was our in charge of that camp
for us who taught biology and God rest her soul. She's now dead. But uh
she said, you know, you can find here tr uh plants and, and some animals
that you'll find in, in the mountains of North Carolina and other places
and also in the tropics because we're below the tropic of cancer. So, it
was a very, uh, very interesting place.
I ought to stop talking because, uh, the, our first experience in going
down there, we, we had a, a board that managed the camp. It had to have
three Mexican citizens and two US citizens. So, one of the trustees and I
served as the US citizens on the, on this holding company. And then we had
um a chap who had immigrated to Mexico, who was on the board and then our
attorney and his assistant to man by the name of Zara in uh Ciudad
Victoria. And uh so we, we would, we would uh go uh the first experience I
had was we were down there with a group of students. Uh One of our
students, uh One of our former students had come back to go down there
with us. He was a master student at the University of Texas. He was gonna
do a bat study while he was down there. Um And, and our Children that were
young uh long about dusk. Uh They came running up to me with a baseball
hat and I said, look what we have dad and I looked at it and there was a
coral snake in there. Uh And uh so our biology instructor, this lady who
would have made a good marine drill sergeant, but who was a lo, we loved
her anyway, she said boys, uh, we'll just take that in and we'll
chloroform it and then we'll count the plates on his head and be sure it's
a real coral snake. And, uh, it was a, it was a real coral snake. Wow. So
, you know, uh, those kinds of, uh, but our students were exposed to that
type of, of situation where they got to see these things. We raised
Amarilis bulbs, smuggled them out of Mexico, let customs, uh fumigate them
and we'd sell them to keep the camp going cause we couldn't use any, any
other fund. We had to use gift funds for that or through the sale of the
MRL. That was one of the interesting experiences that,
you know, opportunities come along and, and through my major professor at
Texas again, he said, would you, would you be interested in interviewing
for a job at Arizona State University? And he said they've contacted me
and they wonder if there's someone from our program who has been a
community college president who would like to uh be considered for a
faculty position. And I said I would because um I don't know whether you
know the sense of the border at that point in time or not, but the large
landholders controlled uh most of the political things. And so like, uh
like the Catholic priest that takes the oath of poverty, they saw to it
that we kept it. So I was one of the lowest paid community college
presidents in the state of Texas. So I could afford to make the move. I
remember my first offer was 14,600 I could teach in the summertime, which
would, you know, increase your, your income by about 2 $2000. And I was
only making 17,000. So it sounded good to me. And besides, I could, I
could get my Children through college and they were coming up on that too
and, uh, just made a, made a good decision. What, what was it that, that
attracted you to the A SU and, and what year was that? You said 1919 70?
Well, I was attracted because they were looking for someone who was
interested in community colleges and who could relate to the state
community College board and who had been in a fairly respectable office in
a community college. And, uh, I seemed to fit the bill and Mor Stout who
was at that time, the head of the Center for the Study of higher Education
seemed to like me. And so I was, uh, I was hired, Harry New Ben was the
president at that time. And, uh, so that was the Starsky era. Yes, I
remember that. And, um, the interesting thing about Harry Newbern is he
was part of our department, but he was actually the president of the
university. And when I came here he had, uh, he, he, uh, had, uh, I'm
trying to think of his assistant. Now, Troy Crowder. Oh, Troy. And I had
known Troy because he taught journalism at Fort Hayes when we were, when I
was a storyteller. You remember the color of the car he had because cars
were not as plentiful to us at that time. Anyway, uh, Troy was his
assistant and, uh, Harry Newbern had at one time been Dean of the Liberal
Arts College at the State University of Iowa when my mother was a master's
degree student there. And the interesting thing is, of course, we had no
money. So when she could, she babysat and she babysat the new Bern
Children. Oh, my goodness. So it was an interesting, uh, small world. We
had connections all the way to the top then I did. But that didn't change
anything.
But now were there other people in your department that were interested in
, uh, the community colleges and, and the, uh, relationships with them or
did you not at that time? I was the one and I became the, uh, John Swatow
, succeeded Harry Newbern. Harry New Bern went on to, uh, university or
the, um, I, I guess Cleveland State University because he liked to be
president in various places and he was retired, of course at that time. So
, uh, he, uh, we really didn't have anyone until uh Bob Fenske came in. He
wasn't interested in, particularly in community colleges. But then Dick
Richardson came in and he was, he had been, excuse me, he had been a
longtime community college president, I say long time, five or six years.
And, uh in Pennsylvania. And so he came and he came as the chair of the
department. So, um, um, for maybe a year or two, my contacts with, well,
not my contacts but, but my representing the university community Colleges
was, was uh off the table. But then I think he found out that that wasn't
as alluring as uh it might appeal to me. So then I went back to, I
attended all the community college, state board meetings and, and worked
with some of the community colleges when we did feasibility studies and
that type of thing, we did a feasibility study for Northland pioneer and I
was involved with that and I was involved with a feasibility study for
Santa Cruz County, which doesn't have a community college. And um they
were considering what the opportunities would be, but they really didn't
have the economic base to do it. And, but they do have services from Pima
Community College. So back in the seventies, we were growing so rapidly
that uh it's a good thing we had the community colleges or we wouldn't be
able to handle all the students as, oh, that's right. And um we were
getting some terrific uh teaching at community colleges at that time, Mesa
was growing and of course, as you know, it's probably the largest single
campus, community college in the country, even though it's part of a
district. And, uh, it, it probably pretty close to rivalry of the, uh,
enrollment at a su, at the time I came. So, I think it was a little over
30,000 when I came. Maybe. I don't know how long you've been here, Elmer,
you probably preceded me. But um you may remember the enrollment figures
better than I do. I came in 1967. Yeah. Well, I, I knew you were uh you
were a uh old hand at this thing. So, but anyway, that's uh uh so I, I did
follow the state board. I did write a report and gave it to the president
, whomever was president at that time. And uh then I did some work with
various things in community colleges and involved in making some
presentations and some national meetings. We held some conferences and I
think one of the sad things is that uh President Wada was not given credit
for being around or as accessible as they'd like. And he was always very
accessible to me and he attended uh he, he spoke at some of the community
college conferences we had. So I am, I was indebted to him for his help.
So, um what, what do you remember most about your, your career? And, and
the development of the relationships with the community colleges and all
those kind of things. Any special. Well, you know, I, I, when I came here
, the president up at Yapi College was, in fact the first college campus I
went to, um, as a, as an, a su um employee was uh Yapi College and John
Barnes, who was the president at that time, there were two John Barnes
that have been presidents of community Colleges in Arizona. I didn't know
that one at Yuma and then one up in Prescott. But John Barnes uh up there
, I had known in Texas, he and I were in a class together at the
university. Uh so it was kind of nice to have that happen. And uh and
fortunately we got some of our students, I taught a course as which is a
pretty pedestrian course called the Community Junior College. And it was
really an introduction to people who wanted to teach in community colleges
, our state at that time, licensed community college teachers. And so that
was, they had to take a course of that type and I happened to teach that
class. So I had as many as 95 students in that class at the time. In fact
, what I found out one time in the evening, I used to teach at 640 in the
evening because uh graduate students were really available in the daytime.
But we didn't have many full time graduate students. And um, I found out
later that there was a young woman in the back of the room and I don't
know her name. I don't even know what she looked like but she was enjoying
a martini in my class, which made it look like I had a II, I didn't have
to do this big, a dog and pony show because she was entertaining herself.
But at least that's, that's my, that's the way I surmised it anyway, of
course, that you taught uh on community colleges. What were some of the
topics that were covered in there? Oh, we covered the, the philosophy,
which is probably key and we covered uh teaching in the community college.
We're talking about governance, finance.
Um I, in that one course, we touched on all of those things we talked
about curriculum. Um And we did, we, we tried to emphasize the fact that
it was very student oriented that uh that was one of the missions was to,
to see that the student was well served. Uh And we've had a lot of wells
served students at a su that have come up transferred from community
colleges. Also. It's a social organization in a lot of ways, a socializing
organization. Uh It kind of parallels the um the folks Aulen in Germany
and Europe that considers itself to be a socializing organization in
addition to teaching various uh areas.
Well, with all this involvement with the community colleges, uh were you
were you involved in the, uh, transfer credit, uh, agreements you
established over the years as you know, Arizona State, particularly the,
the vice president's office. Danen Feld was the vice president when I came
in and Joyce Foster. And, and, uh, I can't remember who the registrar was
and he was a delightful man, but he had, he, uh,
no one, Alfred Thomas, no, Alfred. It was past Alfred's time. Anyway, it's
, uh,
he was from Washington State. I remember. Well, he shouldn't be forgotten
but I'm sorry, I have. Uh anyway, he, he, um, he was also a part of this
and we, we had, they had what they called the higher education
coordinating council or uh they called it heck. And so we met with various
community college people. We're trying to work out a core curriculum that
would ease the transfer of credits. And I had suggested at one time they,
they call it the higher education liaison league. But uh they didn't seem
to appreciate that. They didn't like that acronym going from heck to hell.
But, uh and they held the meetings all over the state and I was involved
with that um uh for a long, long period of time and uh we did get some, we
did get some transfer curriculum, uh worked out with some of the colleges
, but not all of them. I think it was later, a group was involved with
that. Um I'm not sure. Uh, Leonard, uh Gordon, the current Dean of the
Emeritus College has told me that he was and that he remembered me, but I
don't remember, uh, that I was involved with it at that time. And, uh, but
, but anyway, we, we did that and then, uh, in 1991
or 92 we, uh, a graduate student of mine, uh, Mary Jane Price and I did a
study of the graduating seniors at the, at the four universities. Actually.
Um It was nauu of a ASU and Grand Canyon. Uh And the sample was fairly
small there, but we, our total population we got responses from was over
900
we tried to divide them out. Um We, we decided that anyone who had 24 or
more hours at the community college would be called a transfer student.
And those that began at the university were native students. So we found
out by looking at their grade point averages in the last year that the
community college transfer students um scored higher as far as their GPA
was concerned than the native university students. They really uh really
came along. We, we probably didn't make as much out of the results of that
study as we should have. But uh for some reason or other, I've never been
a very good promoter. And uh so anyway, but that's, that's one study that
I was very happy we did. And uh it, it uh and the State Board was pleased
about it. So, was there a battle going on between the university and the
community college that, uh, kind of, uh, competition or? It seemed like
there was always some tension there between the two organizations. Well, I
think that, I don't know, uh, I, I'm, I'm not sure how to answer your
question. I know that a su and U of A don't always get along very well. Uh
, there are some jealousies there. Um But uh the, I suppose there would be
um the acceptance of courses that uh Mike match was being taught at the
university. Well, I think we are who have been professors in universities
think there is nobody on a community college campus that teaches a class
as well as I do. Uh However, the problem now is we have so many foreign
students tas that our freshmen and sophomores at the university, sometimes
they even have difficulty understanding what the uh T A is teaching
because their language is different. They are not as accomplished in
English. And so in a way, uh the community colleges are a godsend to the
universities at least when they come in as either um first year sophomores
, uh or mid year sophomores or juniors. Why they at least can grasp what
the instructor because they'll get, they'll get as upper division students
, they generally get uh instructors that are full time, um or professors
that are full time and are teaching classes. So they're a little more
understandable sometimes. I don't know what that you're getting, that's
what you're getting at. But yes, there is some tension I think because I
think the university faculty sometimes tend to look down their noses at
community college people, but we have some tremendous community college
faculty members, great teachers and uh in this, in, in Arizona and
elsewhere. Dave, you were asking about the uh tension in the community
colleges. Back when I was the Associate Dean of the Business College, we
had an annual meeting with the community college counterparts, business
people. And the, the tough issue we had was an accreditation issue because
part of our core curriculum was taught at the junior level and our
accreditation people would not let us accept that from the community
college even though it may have been almost the same course. And we
struggled with that for a long, long time, uh trying to get the transfer
but, but we worked with them and, and worked well with the community
colleges during that time period. That was back in the seventies. I've
heard that a teaching position at a community college like MC C is quite a
uh choice position. You uh you get paid well and uh you may teach three or
four courses a semester but you don't have committees to deal with. And uh
well, I don't sure that's exactly the case. David. Um most of them teach
15 hours. That's the regular. So that's five courses and then there are
responsibilities, you know, they go through uh accreditation
and there are some committees that they do serve on. They have to advise
students just like we do at the university, their load of advising
students may be greater than ours. Um but um they earn their money. I can
say this, I think for a fact there, I've had students in my class that
made more money than I did. But then I wasn't the highest paid professor
at a su never was and never will be. As I wrote in a little note that I
hope they'll put in our newsletter over in the Americas College. I am the
one of the few unpaid employees of the university. So, uh, as, as the dean
and, uh, so I've never had a lot of money in my life but, uh, always had a
good time
now with all your work on community colleges and, and that sort of thing.
You also were deeply involved in a lot of dissertation, uh, committees
and you wanna tell us a little bit about that. We had some interesting
ones. Um, uh, I, I think I've been the author of some dissertations along
the line, maybe one or two.
um, uh, I don't know whether you've had that same experience or not, but,
you know, you get students involved in a program and they get up to the
dissertation state and you find out that they aren't really, very good
writers. So you have to edit, right. Uh, quite heavily. I did have, uh, I
have one student that I just like to point out he just as retired as
president of Rockingham Community College in North Carolina. And prior to
that, he was, uh, President Grant, John Woods Community College in, in
Illinois. Um, and his name is Bob Keys and I just visited him last month.
Uh, he's retired but, um, he's, he's been very much involved in North
Carolina. In fact, he was the president of our community college group and
really uh an outstanding student and his contributions I think are, are
monumental to North Carolina. So I'm very pleased that I had a chance to
work with him. I also had another student and we used to get a lot of
nursing students because they didn't have a doctoral program at a SU and
so they'd come over and get on our doctoral program because they do. Most
of them knew they were gonna be involved in colleges and university
teaching. So, and administration as far as the programs were concerned.
And uh I had one student whose name was Dolores Santora. And uh because
their son Arthur
thought Santora sounded too mafioso, they changed their name to Sands. So
her name is just Dolores fans today. She was the, for a number of years
was Dean of the College of Nursing at the University of Texas and she just
retired. So, I'm also very proud of her accomplishments. I remember that
name actually. And, uh, she was also on the faculty here. Um, and, uh,
let's see, I'm, I'm trying to think of others that I, so you had, did you
ever count how many, uh, dissertation committees you had a privilege of
serving on? Oh, well, if you're talking about serving on committees, I was
probably on,
probably on about three or four dozen of them. You know, I just know, I've
never, I've never kept track of it. You obviously had an impact on a lot
of, a lot of people's lives as they were coming through the program. So.
Well, you know, that's the amazing thing about uh teaching anywhere. If
you don't know what impact you've had on people's lives sometimes, you
know, I've had students as you have that have come up and said, you know,
you made the difference and, and, uh, and in the way I've approached
things and, um, um, that's a compliment. It makes it all worthwhile,
doesn't it? It does. That's right. Um, and we never know about all those
that we might have influenced, but it's, it's really a precious and I say
precious position to be able to teach because, um, the folks are captive,
whether they're drinking or not. And uh you, you do have the opportunity
to influence people and hopefully through their activities as well as
yours because, you know, you can't, I'm not sure that lectures alone. I
know I wasn't an outstanding lecturer and lectures alone. Don't uh move
people always. But uh when you get them involved and you interact with
them, then there is a value there that uh is almost uh it's difficult, um
maybe impossible to measure.
Well, as, as you look over your years from 1970 when you came here until
now, uh how, how would you characterize the changes in a su uh, during
that time period? Really great when I came Christine Wilkinson who's now
the secretary of the university was a student of ours and in higher ed,
and then she went through all the chairs to the director of Admissions and
then, um, on up the ladder and vice president for Student Affairs, that
sort of thing. Uh, it's just changed a and to some extent, it's changed
for the good. I know because we're serving more students and we're, we're
, uh, looking at better ways to serve them and we're wanting to take care
of the, the earth that we live on. And the president has a very strong
emphasis on that, uh, and, and, and renewing uh, our planet. But, uh, it
also gets so big that it's almost difficult to, to handle all of it. And,
uh, I don't, it, it's marvelous that he can do that because, um, I don't
think very many people could keep their hands on everything going on, uh,
on this campus. And of course, we've expanded the, we not, we had the west
campus for a while. But, but, uh, now we've got, um, the east campus and
the downtown campus and, uh, I must confess, I've never been on the
downtown campus.
I didn't know my word is, we'll put that on your list of things to do is
the new Dean of the Emeritus College? I do. What kind of advice would you
give to young people of choosing their college and their careers and that
sort of thing? You've, you've dealt with so many of them over your career.
Well, I, I think they quite obviously you need to do a lot of research on
, on what's going on nationally, internationally. When you begin to look
at the possible kinds of training you want if you're going to enter
college or you, uh, or even if you're there now, um, the world is a
changing place and of course, technology has been highly emphasized and I
guess we all cannot escape it. Um, but, uh, that's, that's one thing and
then it seems to me don't be afraid to take chances. Um, as we grow older
, we don't like to risk things but, and when you're younger you can't
afford to risk some of those, uh, uh, those, um, decisions. And that's one
thing I would say, don't be afraid, don't be afraid to dream, don't be
afraid to risk. Um, because literally in many respects, everything is
possible. Um, if you want to work at it. Uh, and you have a clever, you
can carve out a clever niche. You'll probably be successful. Well, you've
taken some of those risks and, uh, many of those have resulted in a lot of
positive things, uh, for the community colleges, for Arizona State
University, for a lot of doctoral students. And, uh, and many other
friends that you've, uh, you've touched their lives and you're going to
continue to do that now as Dean of the Emeritus College, your, your newest
uh charge that starts here in a few days. So, yeah. Well, that's true.
If you were to uh look back over your career, what do you think some of
the most interesting achievements overall? Is that, or is that, or there
are too many to count or? I'm, I'd rather, I, I can count. Uh, uh, I've
had too many failures to count. But, um, um, well, you know, I, I, it's
really difficult for me to say there, you, you get elated uh, on a lot of
things that happened. Um, but I, I would be hard pressed to say there was
something that really stood out and my wife stands out in my mind because
she stood behind me all this time. That's probably the best way to put it.
What, what do you think uh, has given you the most satisfaction in your
career here?
Well, uh just being associated with the university, the people I've met
and the friends I have, I, I'm not one to have a lot of close friends but
I have a lot of friends and, uh, they give me a lot of joy when I hear
about them and what they're doing. Um, I had a surprising thing happened
to me this week. In fact, um, Dick Richardson, who was, uh, the chair of
our department and, um, for a good many years and left, uh, retired,
actually went to New York and did some more writing and study. I got an
email from him. He uh he retired to Pagosa Springs, Colorado, but he also
, I guess, has a place here and I got the nicest email from him the other
day and uh I was very pleased by it. I wrote back and I think maybe we'll
get a chance to get together. That's great. Uh Unfortunately, when we were
faculty colleagues, we were never very close. But uh this, this seems to
be changing time heals a lot of things. That's right. Is there any uh any
special individual or uh others that uh that had an impact on your career
uh Either here or, or prior to coming here? Well, of course, cc culvert at
Texas had a big impression on me. And then another man that was at Fort
Hayes, a man by the name of Kirk Naylor eventually became president of, I
think what at that time was called the University of Omaha and not
subsequently I think has become the University of Nebraska at Omaha. Um So
those people I think had a lot to, to influence me, I've had influences by
people who are not involved in education. My grandmother won and she, she
was a great influence on my life. She stood about 4 ft seven and she
wielded a mean broom. Um, and she wrote poems uh to John Kennedy when he
was president and she had never graduated from high school, but she was
very much into writing and, and uh we have an old fashioned Christmas,
which is a poem that she wrote about her childhood. And uh so I just, I
owe her a lot. Those wonderful memories are they? Yeah.
Did any of, you know, Roger Axford? Yes.
Now you, you Roger in many respects, was difficult to understand and
difficult to know. But he did some very good things and he did a favor for
me one time. He was on our faculty when I was here and he was interested
of course in retirement. But one evening for about two hours, he got us uh
together in the upper room of the university club and he got Steve Allen
to come over and spend that time with us. He played the piano. He talked
about some of the, the things he'd written, he talked about being on
national television and that was a very re ring enriching experience. In
fact, that's one of the things I I really appreciated Roger for doing that.
There were some things that Roger did I didn't appreciate. But that's one
thing uh that I do remember about him. What was the connection between
Roger and Steve Allen? Was it Steve a student of his? No, no, I think he
just, uh probably through communications. Maybe send him one of his
publications, uh like Shifting Gears before you're over the hill or
something like that. Um But he got to know him. Of course, Steve, you know
, is from Phoenix. So there are, I don't know how he did it, but, you know
, Roger was always found ways to get things done. He wasn't shy, he was
not shy and, and Alan seemed very pleased to do it. And there were about
40 of us, I think from the college of education up there that night. It
was a very rewarding experience.
He died, unfortunately, a year after that.
But I always like watching him on The Tonight Show. Yeah, he was good. He
was good. He was excellent, good. And he could write, he wrote songs, he
wrote books and he did have a, then they have these three fellows on there.
Don Knotts was one of them. Uh And he'd interview them and it was
nonsensical, but it was entertaining. And uh the man on the street. Yeah,
man on the street
now, uh you said you came in 1970 then uh your, your first retirement was
in 95. Is that correct? I, my retirement from full time teaching was 90 it
was 1995. But for about six years after that I was an adjunct. They, they
would let me teach a course or to a semester. And I enjoyed that was able
to keep my hand in. And then, uh, most of the people that were in the
department either went to other colleges or they retired to, I can't
remember. I don't think, well, maybe some of them may have died, but I
don't think so. And, uh, so I thought, well, you know, I'd like a little
different, uh, take on life. So I, I saw an ad in the paper, um, by Veolia
Transportation that operates all the buses and dial rides and all that
sort of thing in the Phoenix area. They're a French company. So I applied
and they put me through a commercial driver's um, license program and I
thought I was gonna start driving city buses, which didn't really throw me
a lot. But then they asked if I was interested in the di program which was
taking people that were challenged or aged, uh to places they couldn't go
without that. And I did that and I, I did that for five years and then got
fired from the job simply because they didn't get their contract renewed.
And now it belongs to discount cab. So on June, the 30th, I got fired for
the first time. Actually the second time because I got fired once from the
US Postal Department because the gate closed on me when I was doing, I was
doing some Christmas stuff and the gate closed on me. And if you're a part
time employee and you have an accident, why you have no appeal, you're
gone. I, I assume you were in a vehicle when the gate closed. I was in a
vehicle. I was in a, in a van at the time taking some mail to one of the
post offices in Mesa.
What other volunteer work have you been involved in? Well, as this
certainly imply, it doesn't stand for a su it stands for Arizona State
Credit Union and I was on its board for 27 years and I am now the first
emeritus director of that. I still have a little travel budget. I went to
a meeting at uh in Nashville, North Carolina recently about community
colleges and volunteerism and that sort of thing. Community colleges are
changing. So they are competing with banks just like uh like nothing. I
mean, they're, they, they're, they are becoming almost full service banks.
The unfortunate thing, the economic situation won't let them really pay a
lot of dividends, but then banks aren't either. So, but anyway, um I've,
I've really cherished that relationship and uh wait a minute, Quentin, you
said you went to Asheville, North Carolina or Community Colleges? No. Um
No, I went there for credit union for credit Credit union. Did I? Well, I
apologize. Whomever looks at this, uh, video, I apologize to them. I went
there for, uh, the, uh, uh, the, the National Federation or, or the
National Association of Federally Chartered Community Colleges Credit
Union Credit Union. I've got credit. You see how, well, still community
colleges have been such an important part of your life that, uh, that's
certainly get it off my brain. Uh, can't wipe it clear.
And, uh I also understand that you were involved with the A su retirees
association as president for a year. And on that board, I was on the
council and delighted to, uh, now, are you talking about a sur a? Oh, well
, I was president 10 years ago when Michael Crow came on as our president
and at that time, some, some really great people had established the, the
, the A sur a, however, it had never gotten official. We sort of had
unofficial status within the university. And so when Michael came, we use
that opportunity to get with him and say, hey, can you help us? And, and
he did? And uh he said, why don't you use the parents club model and um,
do that, use that? And, and, and we did so we got that accomplished. I
felt very good about that and I hope others did too good, good.
Now, in addition to the A su Retirees Association, I understand you've
also uh, were involved early on in the, uh Emeritus College. Probably
making the biggest mistake of my life on the first of July, I'm supposed
to become Dean of the, uh Emeritus College and, uh, I look forward to it.
It's an honor. Um, I hope to, uh, continue the good work that, uh, that,
uh, Dick Jacob and, uh, Lynn Gordon have begun. I'm going to need a lot of
help. I'm very uninitiated. I'm sure your experience will, uh, will serve
you well, in that role, uh I'm beginning to realize how great that role is.
Uh, as you probably know because you're the, uh, you're the, uh, uh,
associate dean and, and, uh, we've had some conversations about that.
That's correct. We have and we'll have more, I'm sure I'll look for a lot
more and hopefully they'll be, I'll, I'll look forward to those. I'm sure
I like to have fun and we've already had a little fun getting a cart, a
new cart for the, uh, you got your own electric car. We got it, we got the
Provost office gave it to, it's bigger than the one they had. He was very
successful. It was eight passenger, uh, 66 passenger. And, uh, I'll be
honest with you, I had to do some dirty tricks to get it. I sent it, you
know, we report to, uh, a chap by the name of Barry Richie. He's, he's, oh
, he's a vice. Provost vice for personnel
and we report to him, the college reports to him and then ultimately to
the provost, but I did send, uh, our old cart was in such bad shape and I
was afraid they were going to give us another hand me down, which they did
do. But this was a lovely hand me down. So I just told him about the story
when I was little. My grandmother wanted me to wear my sister's underwear.
And so that was my story, my sister's underwear and um I, I hope to shame
him by making him think I did afterwards.
So we hope to have a few things like that. I said later on, we'll get to
Michael,
tell us more about your family. So, uh we get kind of a perspective of
that as well. Well, um our first child was born on December the 7th, 1953.
We were born, uh, we were married in 1952 in April in case you want to
figure that out. Um And uh he was a wonderful child. We really loved him.
And then my first job came along in Ohio and uh my wife was teaching, she
, you know, like a lot of wives, she, she supported their husband and
while I went to school and, uh, but I did get a job and she was completing
her contract there, but she was pregnant. And uh, so shortly after we
moved to Ohio, Tiffin, Ohio, uh where Heidelberg College is, and where I
was employed, um she gave birth to twins. We had no idea we were going to
have twins. But um the doctor whose name was Quentin B Smith came out of
the uh delivery room and he said, Quentin, uh your wife and two sons are
doing well. And I, of course I did a double take, I don't think I fainted.
But anyway, it was a, it was a, a, an interesting experience. And of
course, you have one twin that dominates the other. And we went through
things like getting uh my wife and the older boy, oldest boy in the uh
locked in the basement doing washing. So, uh he had to be put out of the
window and open the door so they could get out of the basement and, you
know, things like that that went on. But it was a very interesting and
rewarding experience. Um They're uh they're all men, of course. And they,
in fact, they're uh their past middle age, one of them is working on a
doctorate through uh Liberty University. He has been a religious worker
almost all his life. He's an ordained minister. He's producing some video
, he's produced DVD s on Islam and Jehovah's Witnesses and, and Mormonism.
And uh he's now established his own private religious foundation and he
is, uh he again is like the Catholic priest. He's been just above the
poverty line all his life and he happened to have the largest family. So
uh we get to, we get the privilege of um of uh of, of helping him probably
a little more than the other boys. Uh uh uh They all went for at least one
year to a SS U. Uh the oldest one tested out of a year and then went to a
SU then went to NAU got a degree in forestry and promptly uh started
working Chris with Christian workers in colleges. And, uh, then our second
, our older twin, uh, is a CPA in Brownsville, Texas. He got his, uh, his
CPA and his MB A from Arizona State. And then we have, uh, an, another son
, Steve who's a, uh, planner scheduler at, for Boeing in Mesa and he got
his degree in business at a SU. So, and he was the only one that went to a
community college for which I'm grateful. Well, I'm sure that, uh, you and
your wife are very proud of him that we're proud of all of them. And, uh,
how many grandchildren now? Oh, heavens, let's see. I think we have eight
grandchildren.
Yeah, I think we have a grand grandchildren. That's good. Only two boys
though to carry on the name. So, and how many great grandchildren do you
have? 99? Ok. All right. That's good. Well, I know that I know of anyway.
Well, you had some, you had some interesting deans and associate deans
over there that we did. Bill. Hes and I owned an airplane together. Oh,
were you part of that? Oh, he took me, he took me flying in that once he
did. It was a beautiful little airplane, was loved it. He took very good
care of it. No, this wasn't a piper. This was a Grumman Tiger. Grumman
Tiger. That's right. That's what it was. Grumman Tiger Tiger on the side
of it. I remember that. I was kind of embarrassed because I was, I'd, I'd
seen the airplane and I just left a note and I said, are you interested in
a partner? Because I like Grumman. And he, uh, he got a hold of me and he
said, yeah, I'd be happy to do that. So, um, I paid him half interest in
it and, um, he, we, he said, well, II, I need to check you out. So we went
for a little flight, we went up to Prescott and we landed at the airport
up in Prescott. And, uh, I think he had a cup of coffee. He said, ok, well
, why don't you take off? And I, I did and I couldn't, I just, I couldn't
get it to climb. And he said, well, you know, you might try putting the
flaps down a little. I said, you'll get some lift that one. And here the
guy who's gonna take me in as a partner and I hadn't even lifted the flaps
up on. Well, it must have been an upgraded airplane that had flaps. Most
small planes don't have flaps. It was, it was a nice plane. Yeah, it was
very nice. The student of mine or this former student of mine from North
Carolina. He was so impressed by the fact that I had a license that he, uh
, he, he had an uncle who had an airplane and he got the uncle to sell on
the airplane and he still has it. It's a nice little piper and he still
flies it around. Yeah. So I guess maybe that's an impact I had on one
person. There you go. There you go. Where did you learn how to fly? Where
did you get your license? I got my license at Tim's Air Park and, um,
Round Rock Texas while I was working on my phd just outside Austin. And I
was doing my dissertation on the Tarrant County, the development of the
Tarrant County community College district. And so I'd, I wanted to get it
so I could fly up and back to Fort Worth. Um, and I did. But, yeah, that's
where I got it. And then when we, we went to, um, Brownsville, we bought a
plane, uh, that was a Cessna 172 and flew in and out of there every once
in a while. I had a trustee who was a physician who was drunk most of the
time. And he, he insisted on going, uh, you know, in in Texas, you
legislature meets only every other year to appropriate funds. And of
course, we needed funds from the legislature. So, uh, he, he decided he
wanted to go up with me and I couldn't deny him. Uh, and so we went one
time and it was raining up in Austin and he wanted to come back and I said
, no way we're not gonna go anywhere. Uh, and, uh, we didn't, so there's
no way I'm gonna fly down there in the rain because I'm not instrument
rated. I'm a nice sunshine pilot and I do know how to do 100 and 80 degree
turn if I get into problems. And so, yeah, that was our first airplane.
Then we learn, owned a little Grumman Yankee and then we had an old, old
bonanza and then we had the, the, uh, partnership with, uh, with the, on
the Grumman and it was the neatest. I like it. It was the neatest, it
wasn't a high performance airplane, but it was a neat little airplane. I
wanna thank you very much for, uh, for the interview and I thank you Linda
for including me. I'm kind of just an average guy who had some rather
interesting experiences and, and, uh, some, some memorable ones and I hope
I've been able to, well, you, uh, it's been, it's been a real pleasure to
, to chat with you this morning and to, uh, hear about your, your life,
your career. And all of the impact that you've had on a lot of people and
, uh, and still continue to have. So, uh, we, we appreciate your
willingness to do this.