WEBVTT

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Today is May 28th, 2010. And I'm Chuck back as the technical support staff.

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Today is uh John mcintosh on camera
Dave Shay Linda Vanoy, who is the

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video history project chair. And today
we're talking to Rudy Campbell.

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My name is Rudy Campbell. And uh I'm a
former member of the Tippe City

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Council and a former mayor of Tempe
and served 16 years on the Arizona

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border regions. So Rudy uh tell us
where you're born and uh about your

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parents and siblings.

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Well, I was born a long time ago in
1923 in Tishomingo, Oklahoma and

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Tishomingo. I tell everyone it's about
35 miles south of Wanui if you're

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looking for it. But uh but uh I was
born there just about 12 years after

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Oklahoma became a state before that,
it was Indian territory because the

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federal government had set aside all
of this land. And we're moving the

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five civilized tribes out of the
southeastern part of the United States

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into the Indian territory. It was
called and uh my, my side of the that

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was Chickasaw Indians who were moved
out of the uh uh Mississippi along

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the northern parts of the Gulf States
and into Kentucky and Tennessee. And

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they moved the Chickasaws in 1840 into
this area and uh settled them in a

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, in a place that they named Pingo
cause that was the capital of their

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nation before they came to Oklahoma.
So they, they moved their capital to

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Oklahoma and became uh a nation there.
It's interesting, I found in

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reading that I discovered something
I've never seen before, but I got a

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book out of the University of Oklahoma
Press and they moved 4500

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Chickasaws out of the South and they
brought with them 1000 black slaves.

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I had no idea. I've never read that in
any book, but they brought slaves

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with them because they were somewhat
civilized and they had slaves also.

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So they brought them with them. Uh My
mother and father were both born in

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Indian territory and my mother's side
of the family has the Chickasaw

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Indian blood that I claim a little bit
of. Uh I don't remember anything

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about my first five years. But when I
was five, I started school and on my

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memory, I go back to, I remember the
school that I went to and little

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country school and where we lived. And
I've been back there to visit that

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place through the years. And uh my
father worked for the Magnolia Oil

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Company and they were drillers. They
were all over Southern Oklahoma. They

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had the leases on all the land, they
were drilling for oil and uh they

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transferred him to a little town close
to Oklahoma City named Saint Louis.

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So we moved from the Fox area, what we
called it when I was about the

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second grade into Saint Louis. And we
were only there about six months and

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they was transferred down to another
place called uh Sandy and he was a

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pumper. Now pumper when they have a
lot of oil wells out pumping oil, they

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have to have someone tending those all
the time. Unlike the Gulf states

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that we're ff uh w worried about right
now, but he would make the rounds.

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So about 12 oil wells that were
pumping oil, make sure they were

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functioning, right. They had little
gas engines driving the pumps and long

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belt 20 ft long turning the pump to
bring the oil to the surface. And he

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would go around sometimes at night,
sometimes at day and, and check the

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oil and see how the wells were
pumping. So we were in that place until

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1932 and then the government declared
uh uh uh they called it proration of

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drilling and oil production. We were
headed into the real depression.

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Prices were down. So they were
shutting down the oil fields. And so my dad

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lost his job. I was in the third grade
and he became, he found a farm down

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in South central Oklahoma owned by a
lady in uh Oklahoma City and he made

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arrangements for us to go there and
farm. Now, he's a sharecropper. You've

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heard of sharecropper? She owned the
land and we farmed it on shares and

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she was to get a, a share of what we
did, what we made on the farm. And I

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can guarantee you, I don't think that
she got very much out of it. The

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three years we were there in the
spring of 32 to 35 because the rain was

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50% of what the normal rain was for
those three years. And we were dry

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land, farmers and you can't do much
on, on rainfall, which is 50% off. So

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in 1935 a lot of the people were
getting ready to leave and uh if you've

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read the grapes of Wrath, they could
have filmed us as we left Oklahoma in

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1935. Right now, at the end of May,
there were four old cars and a big

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truck with all of our stuff on it. And
we were a bunch of gypsies headed

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west. We knew where we were going
because we had heard there was a lot of

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work around Mesa Arizona farm work. So
we headed out, went down through

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Southeast Southwester, Oklahoma angled
across Texas clear to El Paso and

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then went up to Deming New Mexico and
then cut across through the globe

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and came down into the Phoenix area.
We were on the road four days and

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nights and we had camped alongside the
road when it was about to get dark

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and we can make the camp like a bunch
of gypsies. Next day, we're on the

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road again and half the time we spent
fixing flats and running out of gas.

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And there was, uh, an exciting trip
for a 12 year old boy. I was just

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loving it. I had a beanie flipper and
I was shooting all the birds and

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rabbits along the road and I was
enjoying it as we came down out of the

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mountains. I'll never forget this. We,
my dad was driving a 1928 model. A

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Ford that someone had loaned him. We
didn't have a car. Someone said, if

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you'll drive this car out there, you
can have the transportation and I'm

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gonna sell it when you, when we get to
Arizona. So he was driving someone

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else's car and we were coming down the
mountain toward Patchy Junction in

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the afternoon or end of May. I think
it's about 100 and five. And my

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mother never said a swear word in her
life. But she looked at my dad and

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my dad was named the pole in, but they
called him Pole. She said, Pole,

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you're driving us straight into hell.
And that's what we thought we were

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coming into. We drove into Mesa and a
lot of Okies had driven down the

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south side of town, some big
cottonwood trees on the canal bank and we

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drove into that and there's probably
75 to 100 people around those

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cottonwoods. And we were another part
of the clan. There's an irrigation

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ditch running. And I was in that dish
before my dad turned the engine off.

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We've been four days on the road
without a bath and it was hot and dirty

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and I was in it closes and all. And it
was the greatest thrill I had in

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the whole trip. So we, my mother
always fixed our meals and campfires. We

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never ate in a motel or ate in a
restaurant or stayed in a motel in all of

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our tra travels. This is our first
one. I'll tell you a little bit about

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the rest. But, uh, the next day, all
of us, my mother, my father, my

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sister, just two years older than me
and I grabbed the northeast northwest

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corner of, uh, Baseline Road and
Gilbert Road chopping cotton. Now,

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chopping cotton is taking a hole and
going down the road and thinning out

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the cotton to 18 inches apart and
cutting all the weeds in the grass as

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you go. I know it was 105 degrees and
we were paid eight cents a roll and

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we could all chop six in the morning
and six in the afternoon. So we

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chopped 12 rows of cotton. Each one of
us at eight cents is 96 cents a

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piece that each of us made for that
day's work. We went to the old Basher

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store in downtown Mesa and we couldn't
carry out all the groceries that,

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that $4 bought. Uh, and I, I
researched this through some newspaper, old

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newspapers, coffee was 15 cents a
pound. You could buy a £10 sack of

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potatoes for 25 cents and a slice of a
big, uh, uh, loaf of bread uns was

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eight cents. So, you see, it's
relative. We bought a lot of groceries for

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, for $4. And that's where we started
our life in Arizona. We became

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migrant farm workers and we worked
through June and July. We chopped

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cotton. We uh got into the melons,
they had the cantaloupe and the

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honeydew later on in the summer, there
was a, a plum orchard that we

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helped strip. We worked until about
the middle of August and everything

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was done at that in that area that we
could do. So my dad had heard of a

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place up in Colorado on the Arkansas
River where they had uh Libby's

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Canning Factory and they raised uh uh
onions and green beans and apples

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and the people came to pick them. So
we headed about the middle of August.

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We headed for Colorado and uh and uh
but this time he had bought a little

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old uh uh one seat Chevrolet coup with
a uh rumble seat. So we got into

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that with everything we own, which is
a couple of rugs and, you know, in

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traveling in those days, we didn't
have ice boxes, we didn't have water

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jugs at all. We didn't have anything
like that. We didn't have bedrolls,

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we didn't have cots, but we camped out
alongside the road and took us four

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days in the old car to get to
Colorado. And in the middle of August went

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right up the Rio Grande Valley all the
way from Deming New Mexico up

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through to uh uh up to top out at Rat
Hole and into a little town called

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Manson Nola near Rocky Ford. The next
day, we were out in the fields

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picking green beans and tomatoes. But
it was a blessing. It was 4500 ft

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elevation. The temperature was about
80 degrees instead of 100 and five.

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And we thought we'd gone almost to
heaven. But we worked that until uh

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about the first of October and then
they had a frost and that was the end

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of our crops. So we were on the road
again and this time, incidentally, uh

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I had not started school yet until we
got to Colorado. But in September, I

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started school there in the seventh
grade. And my dear mother, my father

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and mother had only been through the
sixth grade, but my mother would say

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, you know, Rudy, I saw a schoolhouse
right down the street there, go down

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there and get yourself in. She
wouldn't take me. But she told me to go get

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myself in. So I started in the seventh
grade in Manola, Colorado. We were

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only there about a month and a half
and everything was done. So my dad and

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mother said, let's go back to Oklahoma
and visit the relatives before we

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go back to Arizona. So we headed for
Oklahoma, got down to the old folks

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place and we stayed there about three
or four weeks and I was in school, I

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never, I never missed in school with
all this running around that we did.

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My mother would say, well, I saw the
school down there. So go get yourself

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in. So we did that. And then about in
the middle of November, we headed

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back to Arizona, we landed back in
Mesa and I went and started to school

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in Mesa. So that was my third year,
third school in the first year in the

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seventh grade. And we did that until I
graduated from high school. I won't

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take you through all of these. But we
did that year after year after year

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until I was 18 years old and out of
high school. But I've uh looking back

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and I've told my kids and grandkids
this, I felt that I was in a crucible

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, being tempered for my life ahead
because I was learning some things with

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those experiences that no one else
could possibly learn. We learned to

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survive. I tell you one story that I,
I didn't know what was happening at

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the time. And looking back, it was a
real lesson when we got to Manola

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Colorado pulled off the side of the
road and under some cottonwood trees.

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My dad told my mother said, well, get
lunch together and I'm gonna walk

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downtown to see if I can find
something. I went with him, went into the

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first building, there was a garage.
Two guys are working on an old car.

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This is 1935.

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And he told him, he said, hey, you
guys, he said I can take that car apart

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and put it back together. A pair of
pliers. Do you need any help? You know

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, you wanna take a few days off, I can
work for you. And they said, well,

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no, we don't have anything here right
now. So we went to the next building

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and the next building was a little
store with a butcher shop in the corner

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of it. He walked in, there was a be
hanging up there. And my dad said, you

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know, I can take one of those beans
down and cut it up into every thing

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that you want to cut up and package it
and put it in the deep freeze just

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like you're doing it. Could you need
anybody right now? You want to take

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some days off? And he said, no, we're,
we're ok. The next one went into

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and believe it or not, it was a
barbershop and he walked in and said, hey

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, he said I can cut hair as long as
there's hair on the head. Do you need

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any help? Because he had on the farm,
the people, the guys would come to

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our house every Sunday afternoon, my
dad had some clippers and scissors

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and he'd cut their hair so he could
cut hair. No, no, they didn't need any

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help. Well, the next one was a service
station and he asked the same thing

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, he said, no, we don't have anything.
He said, however, we're getting

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ready to put in a gas grill here and
we're gonna serve hamburgers and hot

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dogs to people come to the service
station. He said, can you do that? He

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said, sure I can do that. So he got a
job cooking hamburgers and hot dogs.

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Now, that's perseverance. That's
having confidence in yourself that you

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can find something and you can look
them in the eye and tell them I can do

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that and take, get a job. And I've
used that with a lot of my kids and

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young people. I've talked to that
don't think there's any opportunity out

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there for them. You can make your
opportunity. Well, anyway, we, I won't

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tell you all the story, but we have a
lot of tough things along the way

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and, and we travel all the time.
That's long secure this trip. And we

00:13:48.700 --> 00:13:55.015
never stayed in a motel or never ate
a, a meal in a restaurant. We'd pull

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over the side of the road and my
mother get stuff out and make a meal and

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we go on, we had a lot of, of pork and
beans and bologna. I can guarantee

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because we had no ice Ts. We couldn't
carry meat and anything that would

00:14:05.869 --> 00:14:11.356
spoil. But we made the rounds and
finally back in Mesa, I got into high

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school and I was so uncomfortable
because I didn't have the right clothes

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to wear. And I was a misfit every way
you look at it. And, uh I was very

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unhappy, but my dear mother wanted me
to go to school and so I was doing

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it to please her. And so I finally got
through my freshman year and that

00:14:31.389 --> 00:14:35.936
year going to three schools was like
before. And my sophomore year ago, we

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just went to Colorado and came right
back to, uh to Mesa. Well, my dad was

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, uh, he could sing any song that was
ever written and he knew most of

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them and he'd sing to us and he was
always having fun with him and I

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inherited his voice. I guess you'd
call it. I was singing in the boys glee

00:14:51.950 --> 00:14:56.775
club as a sophomore. Mr William
Wheatley promoted me to a cappella choir,

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which is the very top of the singing
group in school. Incidentally, Mesa

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High school was 96.9% Mormon. I
guarantee you. And I was not a Mormon, but

00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:11.217
I got along with him fine, but he put
me in a cappella choir and I, I

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really flourished because I could sing
and I finally did something that

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the other kids liked. And then my
junior year I made the varsity

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basketball. And so I got into sports
and music and now I was glad to go to

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school and it helped me with my grades
too because I had an interest in my

00:15:33.969 --> 00:15:40.407
grades also. So I got through those
very, very tough years and some sad

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things. But again, it's a lesson. Um,
I had leads in and operators and I

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sang at commencement and I sang with
everything. Incidentally, you

00:15:50.750 --> 00:15:54.907
remember rusty bars who used to be in
the legislature. His mother was

00:15:54.940 --> 00:15:59.297
Natel King and she was in, she was in
my class and she had the most

00:15:59.330 --> 00:16:03.775
perfect singing voice of any teenager
I've ever heard in my life. And it

00:16:03.808 --> 00:16:07.096
was my privilege to sing some duets
with her commencement and that sort of

00:16:07.129 --> 00:16:11.956
thing. So anyway, the music and
athletics got me through. But I, here's

00:16:11.989 --> 00:16:15.596
the sad part, but it's another lesson

00:16:15.629 --> 00:16:19.946
I had leads in the operators. I
graduated from a grade school in Mesa. I

00:16:19.979 --> 00:16:24.375
graduated from high school in Mesa. I
played basketball in Mesa. And

00:16:24.408 --> 00:16:29.836
neither of my parents ever once came
to see me because my mother's best

00:16:29.869 --> 00:16:35.116
dress was, uh pla or just a gingham
dress that she had made herself.

00:16:35.149 --> 00:16:39.066
That's her best dress. And she did not
feel that she could go to any of

00:16:39.099 --> 00:16:43.657
these functions where all the L DS
people were well dressed, knew how to

00:16:43.690 --> 00:16:48.375
handle themselves and the crowds and
all of that, they could not do that.

00:16:48.408 --> 00:16:53.996
And so I promised myself, I will never
ever press my mother to come to

00:16:54.029 --> 00:16:59.635
any of these if she doesn't want to.
And so they never came and I never,

00:16:59.668 --> 00:17:02.907
never embarrassed her. The only thing
I remember about it is the next

00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:07.055
morning, always before I left for
school, my mom would come around and say

00:17:07.088 --> 00:17:11.456
, how did things go last night. And so
I would tell her of course, but

00:17:11.489 --> 00:17:15.815
they never came to see any of that.
And I think the lesson is you can get

00:17:15.848 --> 00:17:19.575
along without having everything
perfect. You know, you have to live with

00:17:19.608 --> 00:17:23.575
it and go on with your life and don't
be held back because something's not

00:17:23.608 --> 00:17:28.436
going like you'd like for it to be.
Well, get out of that. My senior year

00:17:28.469 --> 00:17:32.117
, I was in Manola Colorado. That's
where I always started from all of

00:17:32.150 --> 00:17:36.585
these. We always were there in late
summers where I started. Well, I dated

00:17:36.618 --> 00:17:42.367
a girl there named Greta Kent the
first of our, my senior year in 1940 she

00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:47.325
was a junior and we dated for about
three weeks and then we were gone. We

00:17:47.358 --> 00:17:50.266
had our old mattresses on the car and
we were headed back this time, went

00:17:50.299 --> 00:17:55.166
straight back to Mesa. And uh so Greta
and I wrote, wrote to each other.

00:17:55.199 --> 00:18:00.035
We, we, we did our love making through
letters. I wrote to her probably

00:18:00.068 --> 00:18:04.127
twice a week and she did me next year
I graduated in high school and I

00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:08.416
didn't go back on the road with my
parents and I'll tell about that. So,

00:18:08.449 --> 00:18:13.117
Greta and I did our courting by mail
and it was almost two years when she

00:18:13.150 --> 00:18:18.285
graduated. Then I went back up for her
graduation. And within probably 24

00:18:18.318 --> 00:18:22.256
hours of arriving there, we were
engaged. Now, she had had her single old

00:18:22.289 --> 00:18:26.686
boyfriend back and I dated girls in
Mesa, but we were truly meant for each

00:18:26.719 --> 00:18:30.506
other and we did it through the mail.
And so I've told my kids and

00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:34.476
grandkids that we had a, a short
courtship, but, uh, everything worked out

00:18:34.509 --> 00:18:36.575
fine.

00:18:36.608 --> 00:18:42.097
We, um, tell us more about your, your
life in Arizona. There was a

00:18:42.130 --> 00:18:46.936
transition period, of course. And, and
my marriage did that too. Uh, we

00:18:46.969 --> 00:18:50.335
were living on the south side of
Mason, an old house and no plumbing

00:18:50.368 --> 00:18:54.575
inside, no water at all, inside, no
bathroom porch. We had a bathroom or

00:18:54.608 --> 00:19:00.416
toilet in the alley. We bathed in a
wash tub in the kitchen and the whole

00:19:00.449 --> 00:19:03.916
family lived like that. We had never
lived in a house that had a heater in

00:19:03.949 --> 00:19:09.246
it or a bathtub. But then when, well,
uh, back up, then after grand, I got

00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:14.035
married of course, we moved into a
house. But before we were married, um

00:19:14.068 --> 00:19:18.456
my senior year in high school, I said
I am not going to be a fruit tramp

00:19:18.489 --> 00:19:22.127
all my life. My dad was a field
worker. My granddad was a field worker and

00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.815
I said I'm not gonna do that. And so
in the summer after I graduated a

00:19:25.848 --> 00:19:28.887
couple of guys and I went to San
Diego, we got jobs over there. I worked

00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:33.035
for Beacons van and storage. Oh, in
high school, I promised myself I'm not

00:19:33.068 --> 00:19:36.746
going to be a farm labor. I'm going to
get into the business world. So I

00:19:36.779 --> 00:19:40.946
worked for a Beacons van storage. And
I came back to Mesa and went to work

00:19:40.979 --> 00:19:44.825
for Firestone stores, selling tires
down main street in downtown Mesa. And

00:19:44.858 --> 00:19:48.597
I happened to be a pretty good
salesman. So I did, well, now I was, I was

00:19:48.630 --> 00:19:51.006
getting ready to go into the Navy
because World War Two had just broken

00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:55.295
out. And so I was a single man. So I
was headed for the Navy right away.

00:19:55.328 --> 00:19:59.486
And so my wife and I Greta and I
decided not to get married. We would um

00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.575
wait until I came home because there
was a lot of young widows around town

00:20:02.608 --> 00:20:08.266
at the time. So she was going to stay
there until I left for the Navy.

00:20:08.299 --> 00:20:15.736
Well, in December of 1942 my dad and
mother went to uh younger sister,

00:20:15.769 --> 00:20:20.347
went into Phoenix to do some shopping,
came back and threw Tempe and, uh,

00:20:20.380 --> 00:20:23.706
stopped at a lettuce packing shed
right down on the railroad, right south

00:20:23.739 --> 00:20:28.085
of Main street on rural and, and the
railroad lettuce shed went up on the

00:20:28.118 --> 00:20:31.325
shed to inquire about work and the
mind said it on Friday. He said I come

00:20:31.358 --> 00:20:36.516
back money, I'll put you to work. He
drove right out in front of the train

00:20:36.549 --> 00:20:40.656
and it, uh, killed my father and
mother and 14 year old sister. So that

00:20:40.689 --> 00:20:44.117
changed my situation from a single oh,
and left me and me at home with a

00:20:44.150 --> 00:20:48.256
little five year old brother. And so
now I had a dependent. So I changed

00:20:48.289 --> 00:20:52.377
my draft status. And uh so Greg and I
decided to go ahead and get married

00:20:52.410 --> 00:20:55.166
because I wasn't leaving for the Navy
right away. So we got married and

00:20:55.199 --> 00:20:58.906
now I had two dependents. So it was
about a year and a half later before

00:20:58.939 --> 00:21:02.916
my number came up. And I went into the
Navy. I told you about the accident

00:21:02.949 --> 00:21:08.236
that took my parents and uh all my
okie relatives came out here, all my

00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:10.835
uncles and aunts and cousins for the
funeral and all, and they went, all

00:21:10.868 --> 00:21:13.766
went back home and every family wanted
to take my little brother. He was

00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:17.256
the cutest little thing you've ever
seen big brown eyes and everyone loved

00:21:17.289 --> 00:21:21.637
him and, and uh I wouldn't let him
take it because he was, he was gonna go

00:21:21.670 --> 00:21:26.055
back and be raised just like I was on
a farm. I told Lady K when they gave

00:21:26.088 --> 00:21:31.217
me an honorary phd here in 2000, I
said, Lady just think when I was nine

00:21:31.250 --> 00:21:34.867
year, just before we left Oklahoma, I
was 12 years old while I was walking

00:21:34.900 --> 00:21:39.006
behind the team. Harrowing corn. I was
barefooted. Now, you're giving me a

00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:43.295
phd. My folks went home and I kept my
little brother and, uh, he was in

00:21:43.328 --> 00:21:46.575
the first grade and I was sitting
there at the house with him one night

00:21:46.608 --> 00:21:50.285
and Greta had come down here, she was
living here. She had a room across

00:21:50.318 --> 00:21:53.906
town and I was sitting there with him,
help him with his studies and uh, a

00:21:53.939 --> 00:21:57.746
knock on the door and went to the door
and there stood a guy with two big

00:21:57.779 --> 00:22:02.315
cigar boxes under his arm and, uh, he
said I got something here for you.

00:22:02.348 --> 00:22:05.736
And so I opened the door and he
stepped in and set him on the table. He

00:22:05.769 --> 00:22:08.335
said, I work for Peterson Brothers
service station up on the corner of

00:22:08.368 --> 00:22:12.746
Maine and Robeson and Mesa. He said we
hung some buckets out on there on

00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:16.726
the pumps to help the Campbell family.

00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:22.416
And I opened it and he left. I thanked
him and he left and open those up.

00:22:22.449 --> 00:22:25.956
And there's enough money I was going
the next day up to the mortuary to

00:22:25.989 --> 00:22:30.236
sign a note. I had no money. There was
no insurance, no nothing. I found

00:22:30.269 --> 00:22:35.065
$60 in the house. My dear mother had a
big old family picture up on the

00:22:35.098 --> 00:22:40.055
wall and, uh, took it down on behind.
It was an, an envelope she had glued

00:22:40.088 --> 00:22:43.637
to the back of it and there was 3 $20
bills. That was her grocery money

00:22:43.670 --> 00:22:50.545
that she had to squirrel away. So I
had $60 for three burials. And, uh,

00:22:50.578 --> 00:22:55.916
this, this was enough money to pay off
the debt. Now, I, I didn't realize

00:22:55.949 --> 00:22:59.226
I wasn't smart enough to realize the
importance of that until I got grown

00:22:59.259 --> 00:23:03.887
and got out into the real world. And
I, I give that part credit for all

00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:08.026
these things I have done. Look what
that community did for me who didn't

00:23:08.059 --> 00:23:11.065
even know me or know my family. They
didn't know us. We didn't have

00:23:11.098 --> 00:23:17.305
anything going in Mesa Arizona. They
did it because we needed help. So

00:23:17.338 --> 00:23:22.795
that has had a lot of great effect on
my community service. And I went

00:23:22.828 --> 00:23:26.276
through boot camp and they sent me to
a school in New York City to be a

00:23:26.309 --> 00:23:30.387
dispersing storekeeper. And they sent
me to the Great Lakes in Chicago to

00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:37.285
be uh a uh a storekeeper. Storekeeper
is a bookkeeper in the Navy and sent

00:23:37.318 --> 00:23:40.545
me to Terminal Island to separate them
from the service because the war

00:23:40.578 --> 00:23:45.785
was ending down. And so I, I served
out my time uh in the United States in

00:23:45.818 --> 00:23:52.065
the Navy. And then

00:23:52.098 --> 00:23:57.016
I come back from the, from the Navy. I
went to work for the City Hall. I

00:23:57.049 --> 00:24:01.335
was assistant to the city manager, not
assistant city man, assistant to

00:24:01.368 --> 00:24:05.467
which is a gopher was all, it was
drugstore in Mesa where they serve

00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:08.815
sandwiches. And I was there, I was
having a sandwich by the manager of the

00:24:08.848 --> 00:24:11.887
Valley National Bank there. But he
asked me what I was doing and told him

00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.456
I was working for the city and he
said, we're hiring some new men at the

00:24:14.489 --> 00:24:17.315
bank. We're growing, we'd like to have
some people. Would you like to go?

00:24:17.348 --> 00:24:20.496
And I said, well, I've never had any
experience of banking. He said, well

00:24:20.529 --> 00:24:24.256
, go and talk to Leroy Kellis. He's a
personnel director. So I did and he

00:24:24.289 --> 00:24:28.717
convinced me to come to work for him
and I was making 100 and $65 a month

00:24:28.750 --> 00:24:32.137
at the city. And I, and I said, well,
what would my salary be here? He

00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:36.295
said, well, we match that. And I said,
well, what's the point? I said, uh

00:24:36.328 --> 00:24:39.726
, why would I want to change jobs?
Just, uh, he said, we have more

00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:45.795
opportunity for you now, that had a
bug with me. That, that I understood.

00:24:45.828 --> 00:24:50.397
So I went to work for him. He told me
to come back the next Monday. He

00:24:50.430 --> 00:24:53.795
said, whoops, what? That's, it's
November 11th. So that's a holiday. So we

00:24:53.828 --> 00:24:57.526
, you can't come back till Tuesday. So
I told everyone, my banking career

00:24:57.559 --> 00:25:02.075
started with the holiday very first
one. So I became a banker. I was five

00:25:02.108 --> 00:25:07.357
years of National Bank in Mesa. And
then there was, I was uh uh booted

00:25:07.390 --> 00:25:10.926
upstairs to be assistant manager of
the Valley Bank. And Chandler.

00:25:10.959 --> 00:25:13.776
Incidentally, we were the only bank in
town, the only one in Mesa and

00:25:13.809 --> 00:25:17.736
Chandler was the only bank I was there
two years. And during that time,

00:25:17.769 --> 00:25:22.217
some people had started a new bank in
Mesa called the first State Bank.

00:25:22.250 --> 00:25:26.276
And they wanted to open a branch in
Tempe. And so they came and hired me

00:25:26.309 --> 00:25:29.516
away from the Vila bank in China to
come to Tempe to be there to open the

00:25:29.549 --> 00:25:34.446
second bank in Tempe in 1954. And it's
still there where the brickyard is.

00:25:34.479 --> 00:25:39.186
There's still a bank there. It's been
14 kinds of banks since then. But

00:25:39.219 --> 00:25:42.607
and then I stayed there for five
years. And then they booed me upstairs to

00:25:42.640 --> 00:25:47.867
be by, we became Bank of Douglas. We
merged into the Bank of Douglas in 55.

00:25:47.900 --> 00:25:51.897
And then they kicked me upstairs as
vice president and in charge of uh

00:25:51.930 --> 00:25:56.647
business development. So I was out
calling on people uh companies

00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:01.176
primarily to get their banking
business and my salary wasn't going up very

00:26:01.209 --> 00:26:05.397
well. Banking salaries weren't very
good in those days. So, and almost

00:26:05.430 --> 00:26:09.176
everyone that I was giving advice to
on their finances were making three

00:26:09.209 --> 00:26:13.085
times as much money as I was. And I
said, this doesn't make sense. And so

00:26:13.118 --> 00:26:16.776
I talked over with my wife and I
resigned from the bank and went out to

00:26:16.809 --> 00:26:19.656
look for something else and ended up
in the financial planning and

00:26:19.689 --> 00:26:24.246
insurance business where I was for the
next 40 years. And it was the best

00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:27.176
move I ever made. I was a little bit
late in getting into it, but it was

00:26:27.209 --> 00:26:33.117
fine, but you didn't cut all your ties
with the banking industry. No, just

00:26:33.150 --> 00:26:36.946
uh four years later after we had uh I
had left the bank. So a group of

00:26:36.979 --> 00:26:41.967
people said, look, why don't we form a
bank in Tempe? And I said, let's do

00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:46.867
it. And so they end up chairman of the
board and I, I end up in chairman

00:26:46.900 --> 00:26:50.967
of so many things, but I don't know
why I picked the most of it was over

00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:53.857
my head when I went into it. But
anyway, I was chairman of the board and

00:26:53.890 --> 00:27:00.979
we created the Soar Bank in Tempe on
Broadway and Mill. It opened in 1964.

00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:04.279
And we're doing very, very well. And four years later, we had an

00:27:06.689 --> 00:27:12.426
opportunity to merge the Guaranty Bank
in Phoenix, our bank in Tempe first

00:27:12.459 --> 00:27:17.867
security in Mesa and the Arizona or I
think it's Arizona Bank in Hela be

00:27:17.900 --> 00:27:23.476
or no, somewhere down south. We merged
four banks together in and uh I

00:27:23.509 --> 00:27:30.085
want to say uh 64 68 68 and created
the United Bank of Arizona in 68 with

00:27:30.118 --> 00:27:37.717
merging four banks. And we ran that
bank for 20 years from 68 to 88. And

00:27:37.750 --> 00:27:42.226
then Citibank came along and bought us
and we got all our money up. We did

00:27:42.259 --> 00:27:45.877
very, very well in that sale. They
kept me on the board of Citibank and

00:27:45.910 --> 00:27:50.347
they, they sold to Norwest Bank and
they kept me on the board then they

00:27:50.380 --> 00:27:54.607
merged into Wells Fargo, which it is
now. And I was on that board for

00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:59.206
several years, but basically I was be
on bank boards. So throughout those

00:27:59.239 --> 00:28:03.766
years, working when you started soar
Bank, wasn't that the one that Lee

00:28:03.799 --> 00:28:08.016
Thompson, the Dean of Engineering, Lee
Thompson was the Dean of the

00:28:08.049 --> 00:28:13.045
College of Engineering. And Mer uh
Mervin,

00:28:13.078 --> 00:28:18.335
uh another professor at A SU was on
our board. We had two people from a SU

00:28:18.368 --> 00:28:22.607
on our board. I can't remember his
name but just local businessmen. And we

00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:27.166
did very well. And uh so I, and I've
stayed pretty close to the banking

00:28:27.199 --> 00:28:32.696
industry, emotion alive. And you
stayed in Tempe then and lived in Tempe

00:28:32.729 --> 00:28:36.476
sort of every, all the time after
that. Yes, I'm still in Tempe in the

00:28:36.509 --> 00:28:41.867
same house, in fact that we built back
in those days. Um Now my

00:28:41.900 --> 00:28:45.436
involvement with a SU um

00:28:45.469 --> 00:28:50.906
Well, first tell you a little, little
strange story. I was there to

00:28:50.939 --> 00:28:55.276
supervise the construction of our
building in the early 54. And I was in

00:28:55.309 --> 00:28:59.815
the Rotary club and Gilbert Katy used
to be at the A su sitting by me at

00:28:59.848 --> 00:29:02.867
rotary one day. It was like in January
of 54 and the bank, it wasn't even

00:29:02.900 --> 00:29:06.335
open yet. And he said, uh, and I had
made an announcement, I said, I wanna

00:29:06.368 --> 00:29:10.256
invite all of you to our open house
when we open our bank here next month.

00:29:10.289 --> 00:29:14.526
So, uh, after I did that, well, uh
Gilbert Katy said, hey, Reid said we

00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:19.035
have some artwork up at the uh on the
campus that we'll loan you for your

00:29:19.068 --> 00:29:23.446
open house if you'd like to have it. I
said, sure, that'd be great. Well,

00:29:23.479 --> 00:29:28.726
do you remember Lon Macar, the western
artist? Well, we had an, a one

00:29:28.759 --> 00:29:35.867
brewery in Phoenix beer and uh Lon
mcgarvey had done some great western

00:29:35.900 --> 00:29:40.647
paintings for them to use for
advertising. And they were four by three

00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:44.746
oils and they would condense those
down to a little plaque about like that

00:29:44.779 --> 00:29:49.467
and which every bar in Arizona had on
their bar hanging there. It was a

00:29:49.500 --> 00:29:53.956
western scene and one was uh the best
one was a cowboy in the sky and it

00:29:53.989 --> 00:29:58.976
was a blue sky with a cow, a horse,
white horse lying down and a cowboy

00:29:59.009 --> 00:30:02.877
laying there half asleep on the
cowboy's hip. And there was a p pretty

00:30:02.910 --> 00:30:06.166
girl up there in another cloud. But on
the, on the horse's hip was a

00:30:06.199 --> 00:30:11.147
little brand a one because of that.
They couldn't hang it in, at, at the

00:30:11.180 --> 00:30:15.486
university. They wouldn't let anything
with liquor on it so he couldn't

00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:18.406
hang them. He said you can, you can
borrow them and hang them in your bank

00:30:18.439 --> 00:30:23.065
until I said that's great. And one was
a ca uh, black bart. He's sitting

00:30:23.098 --> 00:30:26.746
there in a barber chair with a pistol
right here and had a full beard and

00:30:26.779 --> 00:30:29.526
he had come in for a shave and the
bartender was standing there, I mean,

00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:32.335
the barber standing there didn't know
whether to cut his shave off or

00:30:32.368 --> 00:30:36.097
shave his hair or not. One was a big
fat girl twirling rope and the other

00:30:36.130 --> 00:30:40.377
was four cowboys singing out in front
of a corral and those were the most

00:30:40.410 --> 00:30:45.555
popular, uh, paintings that Longard
had done. Well, we hung them in the

00:30:45.588 --> 00:30:48.986
bank and I just kept them there. I
just didn't, never did say anything

00:30:49.019 --> 00:30:52.555
more. Gilbert tell you about them.
Probably six months later, ran into him

00:30:52.588 --> 00:30:54.946
and said, really? Don't you think you
ought to return those to the

00:30:54.979 --> 00:30:59.526
university? I said, yeah, well, later
years and I've done this several

00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.847
times now. They can hang them and they
are hanging. But I go and inspect

00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:06.887
them every once in a while to make
sure that someone hasn't taken them to

00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:10.696
Timbuktu. I think they're all in the
College of Business now. And the, and

00:31:10.729 --> 00:31:15.867
the most of them in the, uh, dean's
office in that area and the girls in

00:31:15.900 --> 00:31:18.617
there, I go and tell them the story of
them. I said, now I'm gonna be back

00:31:18.650 --> 00:31:21.516
and you better be sure that that's
still hanging there. Anyway, that was

00:31:21.549 --> 00:31:25.446
my first day issue. The second was, of
course, the name change thing was

00:31:25.479 --> 00:31:31.285
taking place. This is in the early
fifties or mid FF and, uh, Jimmy Creman

00:31:31.318 --> 00:31:35.006
asked me to serve on the committee and
I think Don Dots was involved with

00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:40.276
it, Don dot Who later became the head
of the alumni association. But uh

00:31:40.309 --> 00:31:44.766
all they wanted me to do, I was in
rotary and they wanted me to speak to

00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:49.217
as many rotary clubs as I could and
getting the vote out and all that. And

00:31:49.250 --> 00:31:52.357
they, uh Jim Cries said we want you to
go in the southern part of the

00:31:52.390 --> 00:31:55.887
States because that's where we got to
get the votes to get this uh

00:31:55.920 --> 00:32:02.097
university. So they sent me to uh Casa
Grande and Coolidge and uh Hela

00:32:02.130 --> 00:32:07.377
Bend and Yuma. And I spoke to those uh
rotary clubs, every rotary club

00:32:07.410 --> 00:32:12.617
member in those was a farmer and
everyone of them had gone to the U of a

00:32:12.650 --> 00:32:16.315
College of Agrico and I was in the
lines, then I can guarantee you, you

00:32:16.348 --> 00:32:20.377
can tell them to vote for a su to come
to university. Here was the most

00:32:20.410 --> 00:32:24.795
asked question of everyone. They were
courteous to me. But uh every single

00:32:24.828 --> 00:32:28.315
one of them said the, the uh is it
true that you want to be a university

00:32:28.348 --> 00:32:33.206
so you can have another law school?
And I answered it very honestly and I

00:32:33.239 --> 00:32:36.607
, it was absolutely honest. I, I said,
and all the things I've heard

00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:40.166
discussed about being a university, I
have never heard a law school

00:32:40.199 --> 00:32:44.486
mention. And I had not because that,
that just, that was their fear. They

00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:47.835
didn't want another law school. They
absolutely did not want another law

00:32:47.868 --> 00:32:52.075
school to compete with them. So I told
him, I have not heard that and that

00:32:52.108 --> 00:32:56.295
was actually true. Well, we got it
done and the vote came in the vote. I

00:32:56.328 --> 00:33:00.776
looked it up here not too long ago in
Pima County. It was 3 to 13 to 1

00:33:00.809 --> 00:33:06.516
against it and pi a 2 to 1 for it
statewide. So the state made us a

00:33:06.549 --> 00:33:11.936
university finally and, and then uh
Doctor Gammon died about that time as

00:33:11.969 --> 00:33:16.867
you know, and so Homer Derm came in
and uh he became, he inherited a brand

00:33:16.900 --> 00:33:21.436
new university. All that went with it.
Recall you telling me a story about

00:33:21.469 --> 00:33:26.166
when you were at the bank there in
Tempe and Greedy Gamma J you to be down

00:33:26.199 --> 00:33:30.285
with Frank Lloyd Wright. Would you r
that? Well, it's a little different

00:33:30.318 --> 00:33:33.107
than that. I was on the city council
and I was like to the city council in

00:33:33.140 --> 00:33:39.406
56. The mayor of Tempe was a drug
downtown. Tempe, Hugh Laird.

00:33:39.439 --> 00:33:42.976
Incidentally, I was on that council
and everyone on that, but me was old

00:33:43.009 --> 00:33:46.696
enough to be my father. They were all
old timers in Tempe and didn't want

00:33:46.729 --> 00:33:50.315
to do anything unusual. They had a
rule that they wouldn't let a builder

00:33:50.348 --> 00:33:54.107
come into town that would build more
than three houses at one time. They

00:33:54.140 --> 00:33:57.916
didn't want a subdivision. But anyway,
he lad called me and he said, uh

00:33:57.949 --> 00:34:02.045
Frank Lloyd Wright is supposed to be
on site today and uh I'm supposed to

00:34:02.078 --> 00:34:05.186
be there with him and I can't go, can
you go for us? As on the city

00:34:05.219 --> 00:34:08.945
council, I said, sure. So I just
walked down three blocks there to the

00:34:08.978 --> 00:34:14.776
site and Brady Gammons was there and
uh Gilbert Katy and we were waiting

00:34:14.809 --> 00:34:18.486
for Frank Lloyd Wright and finally
drove up in a big, I think he had a big

00:34:18.519 --> 00:34:23.735
two seated touring car with no pop on
it. But he got out and he had a flat

00:34:23.768 --> 00:34:29.316
Mexican hat and he had a cane and a
cape line. And uh we were in suits. I

00:34:29.349 --> 00:34:32.276
think it was in the fall or maybe the
winter of the year. It wasn't hot,

00:34:32.309 --> 00:34:36.077
it wasn't cold. But anyway, he came
out to look at the site and there was

00:34:36.110 --> 00:34:40.997
a jungle out there at that time. It
was uh they had all their rakes and uh

00:34:41.030 --> 00:34:44.776
tractors and all the lawn equipment
out there in, in the curve where the

00:34:44.809 --> 00:34:48.557
curve is. It was just a storage place.
All it was funny thing he had this

00:34:48.590 --> 00:34:53.166
cane and the dust was about that deep
and all of us had on black shoes and

00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:56.836
suits and, uh, Wright was kept peck
peck pecking on the ground with his

00:34:56.869 --> 00:35:01.385
cane. And I got to looking down and
Katie saw it too that he was flipping

00:35:01.418 --> 00:35:06.186
dirt all over Dr Gam's shoes and the
cuffs of his pants was just coated

00:35:06.219 --> 00:35:10.586
with dust, but he didn't know it. He
had like a setter would look a do you

00:35:10.619 --> 00:35:14.831
know, set. He would do like this and
look over here and, and I look over

00:35:14.864 --> 00:35:17.820
there, I don't know what he's looking
at. Then he had to do like this.

00:35:17.853 --> 00:35:22.081
He'd look over there. He was trying to
envision what way he should, she

00:35:22.114 --> 00:35:25.521
should point the, the audit, but it
wasn't long. It was probably 20 or 30

00:35:25.554 --> 00:35:29.240
minutes, but he was getting an idea of
how to set the auditorium where it

00:35:29.273 --> 00:35:35.017
was to be set. So that was my
experience with the Great Frank Lloyd Wright

00:35:35.050 --> 00:35:40.686
Dwight Patterson, uh, sponsored me in
the, in the MA LA Club in 1950 when

00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:45.166
I was at the bank. And then when I was
transferred to Chandler, I was in

00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:48.227
the rotary club there. In fact, I was
president elect of it when I left to

00:35:48.260 --> 00:35:54.095
go to Tempe. Then I spent the rest of
my rotary years in Tempe how many

00:35:54.128 --> 00:36:00.296
years? Well, 50 altogether, I was
enrolled from 50 to 2000 and I, I

00:36:00.329 --> 00:36:04.296
resigned and, and uh I said it's time
for the young people to take over.

00:36:04.329 --> 00:36:09.135
So let me tell you another little
experience I had that will be a lead to

00:36:09.168 --> 00:36:17.168
uh how I got to be on the Board of
Regents on the council. In 56 to 60

00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:20.635
we had a visitor by the name of Jack
Williams, who was the mayor of

00:36:20.668 --> 00:36:24.666
Phoenix at the time. And he came
before the council with the city manager

00:36:24.699 --> 00:36:29.385
of Phoenix. And I don't remember who
he was, but they were applying to the

00:36:29.418 --> 00:36:34.247
uh Aviation Authority, whoever that is
in Washington for to extend their

00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:38.217
runways further east cause big planes
were coming in, more planes were

00:36:38.250 --> 00:36:42.247
coming in. They need to make their
airport longer and they wanted this,

00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:46.686
they, it was a requirement that they
get the cities around to approve it.

00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:51.486
Well, they made their presentation and
uh all the old fellows just sat

00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.206
there and I said, you know, I think
this is a good idea because we had

00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:57.787
just zoned all of the property west of
the railroad, clear down to

00:36:57.820 --> 00:37:01.546
Southern as commercial and industrial,
all the vacant land, there were

00:37:01.579 --> 00:37:05.956
some houses over there, but we want to
uh get commercial and industrial

00:37:05.989 --> 00:37:10.336
plants into town for all these
reasons. And I said that airport's gonna be

00:37:10.369 --> 00:37:14.876
a great asset to a company that will
will, uh, ends up on the west side of

00:37:14.909 --> 00:37:18.756
Tempe, the airport right there in
Phoenix. Pay for it. I said, I think we

00:37:18.789 --> 00:37:23.057
ought to help them. Well, a motion was
made to help them to endorse it or

00:37:23.090 --> 00:37:28.586
whatever we had to do. And I was the
only one that voted for that and all

00:37:28.619 --> 00:37:32.566
the rest of the council turned it
down. Well, Homer Durham, uh, Homer was

00:37:32.599 --> 00:37:38.236
a very sociable guy, Very easy guy to
deal with. I found him that way.

00:37:38.269 --> 00:37:42.316
He's a Mormon guy and of course, a lot
of L DS people in Mesa, in Arizona

00:37:42.349 --> 00:37:46.166
and the legislature, he did well with
the legislature. He could speak well

00:37:46.199 --> 00:37:50.126
and I thought he was a pure academic.
I'm not sure if I read him right on

00:37:50.159 --> 00:37:54.217
that, but here he had a brand new
university. All he could expect was

00:37:54.250 --> 00:37:57.706
growth of all the colleges and adding
colleges to make it a true

00:37:57.739 --> 00:38:02.807
university. And uh that was his
charge. And, and as far as I know, I think

00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:07.017
he did a pretty good job at it. One
more thing with the city. And I told

00:38:07.050 --> 00:38:11.066
you they had a uh policy is all it
was, it wasn't a ordinance or anything.

00:38:11.099 --> 00:38:15.115
It's a policy not to let a, a home
developer come in and see that was

00:38:15.148 --> 00:38:19.356
back when you'd elect the council and
they would choose a mayor. So all

00:38:19.389 --> 00:38:24.546
you need was three votes, your mayor.
So I went to the mayor he learned

00:38:24.579 --> 00:38:27.066
and I said to, I said, I don't, I
don't think that's a very good policy.

00:38:27.099 --> 00:38:30.675
All these other towns are starting to
grow and, and we can't do that. And

00:38:30.708 --> 00:38:33.227
I think that the people want to come
to a university community, they ought

00:38:33.260 --> 00:38:37.155
to have a subdivision or something out
there where they can buy homes. And

00:38:37.188 --> 00:38:42.037
he looked at me and he said, how many
votes do you have on the council? So

00:38:42.070 --> 00:38:45.186
, what he's talking about? I said,
well, I don't know, I haven't talked to

00:38:45.219 --> 00:38:47.646
anybody. You're the first one I've
talked to. He said, well, I've got

00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:51.896
three votes. And so if you have more
than that, we can bring it out. I

00:38:51.929 --> 00:38:55.497
said, well, I don't have three votes.
So that was the end of that. But it

00:38:55.530 --> 00:39:01.307
took us a few funerals before we got
to the point we could get out of the

00:39:01.340 --> 00:39:05.557
little hometown. Well, Homo Derm, I
believe it was Homo Derm that hire

00:39:05.590 --> 00:39:10.506
hired Dan Divine and had ned W as a
basketball coach and they were great,

00:39:10.539 --> 00:39:14.256
great ones. Our athletic department
started to grow and of course, Frank

00:39:14.289 --> 00:39:18.077
Kush came along to enhance all that
had Bobby Winkles along the way real

00:39:18.110 --> 00:39:22.316
early. So athletically and of course,
people down south, they call us a

00:39:22.349 --> 00:39:27.126
jock university because of that. But
uh they wanted to the athletics to go

00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:35.159
along with uh academics. And so Homo
Durham kind of started that

00:39:36.769 --> 00:39:41.686
we had a, we had a freeholders
election the year before and uh we uh

00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:47.195
elected 16 people to draft a city
charter and I was one of those. So we

00:39:47.228 --> 00:39:50.787
spent an entire year drafting the city
charter as you know, it, today, it

00:39:50.820 --> 00:39:55.166
hasn't changed a whole lot and it
called for a public election of the

00:39:55.199 --> 00:40:00.227
mayor instead of electing a council,
letting them choose the mayor. And so

00:40:00.260 --> 00:40:05.057
I was persuaded to run for the mayor
in 1966.

00:40:05.090 --> 00:40:09.717
So we had a primary, there was four of
us running, uh, Elmer Bradley and a

00:40:09.750 --> 00:40:13.356
realtor and I can't remember his name.
Yeah, I know. I'm getting old

00:40:13.389 --> 00:40:15.717
because I can't remember people's
names. That's the only thing I can't

00:40:15.750 --> 00:40:19.416
remember anyway, there's four of us
and I was the top vote getter in the

00:40:19.449 --> 00:40:22.416
primary and Elmer Bradley is right
behind me. So we had a run off. We too

00:40:22.449 --> 00:40:25.925
and I beat him just by a few votes. So
I became the first publicly elected

00:40:25.958 --> 00:40:29.767
mayor in 1966.

00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:35.477
And then we had a, in the fall of that
first year, we had an employee

00:40:35.510 --> 00:40:41.467
strike of all of our trash collection
people. The unions from New York had

00:40:41.500 --> 00:40:45.445
come out and had gotten to talk to all
of our people and convince them

00:40:45.478 --> 00:40:48.695
that if they had joined the union that
they could get them salary

00:40:48.728 --> 00:40:52.026
increases and shorter hours and bigger
wages of everything. You know, like

00:40:52.059 --> 00:40:56.566
the unions promised them and, uh, so
we started fighting that and the, uh

00:40:56.599 --> 00:41:00.477
, all employees walked off the job and
we had a very difficult time. We

00:41:00.510 --> 00:41:04.405
had to hire a private company to come
in from, from like waste management

00:41:04.438 --> 00:41:07.876
to pick up the garbage and do all the
things that had to be done. This

00:41:07.909 --> 00:41:10.945
went on for about a month and, and I
was spending a lot of time, mostly

00:41:10.978 --> 00:41:14.577
Hispanic people, I'd go to their
houses and have 15 people around here and

00:41:14.610 --> 00:41:17.606
had a little bit more hair than that
than I have now. And they'd stand up

00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:22.336
over my head occasionally because they
were mean and, and unhappy and I

00:41:22.369 --> 00:41:28.106
kept telling them you have some
legitimate grievances and I promise you if

00:41:28.139 --> 00:41:33.026
you will come back to work, we will
sit down and resolve those and you

00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:36.445
will have a voice in your grievances.
We will appoint a grievance

00:41:36.478 --> 00:41:39.717
committee that will hear everything
that you want to tell them about your

00:41:39.750 --> 00:41:44.195
situation. And the other thing is I
want you to know this, if you join the

00:41:44.228 --> 00:41:48.655
union, you're going to have to
authorize the city to take your union dues

00:41:48.688 --> 00:41:53.146
out of your paycheck and we will send
it back to New York for you. And

00:41:53.179 --> 00:41:57.836
then if you have a problem out here,
don't come to me, contact your union

00:41:57.869 --> 00:42:01.916
boss in New York. His name was
Vitelli. Straight out of Italy. They were,

00:42:01.949 --> 00:42:05.356
all of these union people came out
here. Could hardly speak English. They

00:42:05.389 --> 00:42:10.077
all spoke Italian. But anyway, we
finally, with those kinds of thoughts,

00:42:10.110 --> 00:42:14.276
they finally decided to come back. And
here's something interesting that I

00:42:14.309 --> 00:42:19.086
, I learned along the way all the
time. Uh, they finally said I will come

00:42:19.119 --> 00:42:25.445
back if I can have my same truck back.
I said you got it. But that was

00:42:25.478 --> 00:42:29.467
their pride. You see the, the, these
guys in picking up trash and all that.

00:42:29.500 --> 00:42:34.316
they have a truck that's, that's their
horse and I, I failed to even

00:42:34.349 --> 00:42:38.717
since that, but they wanted their, I
said you've got it anyway. We got

00:42:38.750 --> 00:42:44.017
them back to work and it was a tough
time. But, uh, part of that problem

00:42:44.050 --> 00:42:49.396
was caused by our city manager whom I
had inherited. He was a retired

00:42:49.429 --> 00:42:53.876
marine captain and he ran the city
like he was a marine captain and

00:42:53.909 --> 00:42:58.146
without much feeling. And, uh, we came
to the conclusion that it wasn't

00:42:58.179 --> 00:43:04.026
going to work and I was his last
holdout. He needed 44 counseling to get

00:43:04.059 --> 00:43:07.635
rid of him out of seven. And I was a
holdout and there was three of my

00:43:07.668 --> 00:43:14.405
friends on there, Hayden, Hayden. Um,
uh, the widow of our former city

00:43:14.438 --> 00:43:19.066
manager, Dorothy Nelson

00:43:19.099 --> 00:43:26.436
and Doctor Flynn. Uh Frank J, Richard
Rick Dick Flynn those three and they

00:43:26.469 --> 00:43:29.646
, they were siding with me. They were
sticking with me. But finally, one

00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:33.467
day in a low private meeting, I said,
you know, it might be time for the

00:43:33.500 --> 00:43:38.787
city manager to go and they said,
amen. So, so I had to go tell the city

00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:41.896
manager that we'd rather like to have
him go look for a job elsewhere and

00:43:41.929 --> 00:43:46.756
, and we got rid of him. And then when
we did that, the mayor of Pho of

00:43:46.789 --> 00:43:53.385
Scottsdale was Bud TIMS and all of us
mayors, we, we talk to each other a

00:43:53.418 --> 00:43:56.626
lot and he called me and he said,
Rudy, now you don't have a city manager.

00:43:56.659 --> 00:44:01.086
We have a guy over here that we will
loan to you. He's ahead of our, he's

00:44:01.119 --> 00:44:06.086
a, he's an engineer, head of our, what
would he be head of? I don't know.

00:44:06.119 --> 00:44:09.217
Anyway, he, he would, he could run
your city for you until you get a city

00:44:09.250 --> 00:44:12.276
manager. He may be a candidate if you
hire and find if you don't, we'll

00:44:12.309 --> 00:44:17.595
take him right back. So he sent me Ken
mcdonald and he ran the city

00:44:17.628 --> 00:44:22.115
greatly all the time. I was there. And
uh and then, well, they hired him

00:44:22.148 --> 00:44:24.756
as a permanent job and he stayed there
about 20 years. And that was the

00:44:24.789 --> 00:44:29.287
best thing. The best thing I did in my
entire mayor years get Ken mcdonald

00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:33.166
to be our city manager because he was
a good one. Well, while you were on

00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:38.836
the Kempe council and mayor of Kempe,
uh there was this growing elephant

00:44:38.869 --> 00:44:44.247
in the room called a su Could you
describe the city university

00:44:44.280 --> 00:44:50.287
interactions in those days. Well, I
would say they were friendly and, uh,

00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:54.456
and, uh, and Cooper, I don't think
there's any schism going on or anything

00:44:54.489 --> 00:44:58.445
like that. We were having to abandon
streets and alleys all over the place

00:44:58.478 --> 00:45:02.546
as the university was growing over,
like Katie Mall was from college and

00:45:02.579 --> 00:45:05.336
they wanted to take over the whole
thing and so on both sides of it. And

00:45:05.369 --> 00:45:08.106
we looked at the plans and that makes
sense. We don't need to drive our

00:45:08.139 --> 00:45:10.845
cars down and I was driving my car
right down there to go to the bank

00:45:10.878 --> 00:45:16.186
every day. But, um, I don't think we
had any real tough things to deal

00:45:16.219 --> 00:45:20.195
with. Uh, except for the finances of
it. My church had a problem with it

00:45:20.228 --> 00:45:24.155
later on and I, we finally got that
result here a few years ago. But when

00:45:24.188 --> 00:45:28.956
on a public body abandons a right
away, the law says it goes to the

00:45:28.989 --> 00:45:32.876
budding property owners 5050 if they
have banned the high street or

00:45:32.909 --> 00:45:36.017
highway, that probably goes back to
the adjoining property owners, that's

00:45:36.050 --> 00:45:41.586
where it came from. Well, they, we
abandoned 23 pieces of alleys and

00:45:41.619 --> 00:45:46.227
streets and on the campus and every
one of them went back to a su except

00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:49.997
where my church was a Methodist church
there on, on the university forest

00:45:50.030 --> 00:45:55.776
, the alley and forest should have
gone half to the church and half to a

00:45:55.809 --> 00:45:59.236
su the alley, half to the church and
half to issue. Well, the city had

00:45:59.269 --> 00:46:04.307
drafted everything in there to u
nobody knew it at the time and years and

00:46:04.340 --> 00:46:08.236
years later, we need to expand our
church and they got surveyors out and I

00:46:08.269 --> 00:46:11.925
said, hey, you don't have any room to
expand you, you don't at all is a

00:46:11.958 --> 00:46:16.997
church. I was a university and the
street is the university. So the church

00:46:17.030 --> 00:46:19.557
came to me with all this background
and said, really, you gotta help us

00:46:19.590 --> 00:46:22.557
with this. I went to the attorneys of
both of the UN University. I was off

00:46:22.590 --> 00:46:28.166
councils for everything. Then all that
on the board of reasons and uh got

00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:33.217
their legal heads together and they
looked at and looked at it and it was

00:46:33.250 --> 00:46:38.236
done by ordinance 1970. I think it
was. And they called an inordinate

00:46:38.269 --> 00:46:43.345
taking. I said, well, just do an
inordinate reverse. Can't you do an

00:46:43.378 --> 00:46:47.057
inordinate? No, we can't do that. I
couldn't get anywhere with the, the

00:46:47.090 --> 00:46:50.675
attorneys. They just said that we
don't know how you can fix it. It's

00:46:50.708 --> 00:46:53.896
public land, public property. If the
university gives it up, they have to

00:46:53.929 --> 00:46:57.506
have a public sale and you may not buy
it. And I can just see half a

00:46:57.539 --> 00:47:02.537
forest, a newspaper store, buying a
little strip. That'd be just right for

00:47:02.570 --> 00:47:08.327
a newspaper stand. They had outbid the
church. So we gave up. Well, seven

00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:10.905
or eight years later, the church came
back and said, Rudy, we've got to

00:47:10.938 --> 00:47:14.655
get this resolved. And so I went back,
they had two different attorneys at

00:47:14.688 --> 00:47:17.445
this time. I thought, well, I got some
new blood to work with but they,

00:47:17.478 --> 00:47:23.256
they just couldn't do it third time.
This is only about four years ago.

00:47:23.289 --> 00:47:27.086
Now. We are. Certainly, we've got to
get this resolved. You open the door

00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:29.925
of one of our buildings and the doors
on university property. It's hanging

00:47:29.958 --> 00:47:34.217
right out over university property. So
anyway, I wrote a letter to a guy

00:47:34.250 --> 00:47:41.026
named Ha Hugh Hallman, a letter to him
there, Hugh Hallman and I wrote one

00:47:41.059 --> 00:47:46.175
to the president of the university. I
said we have a problem that will

00:47:46.208 --> 00:47:50.046
absolutely need your help and no one
else's. Could you meet me at the

00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:53.296
church next Wednesday afternoon at
three o'clock, Michael Crow. Yeah,

00:47:53.329 --> 00:47:57.077
Michael Crow. I was the guy
incidentally, I was on the search committee

00:47:57.110 --> 00:47:59.936
when we hired Michael. I was off the
regions, but they had called me back

00:47:59.969 --> 00:48:03.046
to be on the search committee, which I
enjoy doing. Anyway, they came to

00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:05.896
our church and I had it all. I had a
table this big and I spread out

00:48:05.929 --> 00:48:12.666
here's where it was in 70 here's uh 79
and here's 82 and just briefly told

00:48:12.699 --> 00:48:18.787
them what the thing was. And in 15
minutes my process he had, yeah, Tim

00:48:18.820 --> 00:48:24.666
o'brien. Jim Kim. And he says, Jim
take care of this and Jim can do that.

00:48:24.699 --> 00:48:29.217
He's a real go to guy, he's a, as an
attorney. He's an attorney, you know.

00:48:29.250 --> 00:48:32.695
And so they took it and they even
massaged it and they did all kinds of

00:48:32.728 --> 00:48:36.345
things and the city gave the
university some property and when they were

00:48:36.378 --> 00:48:40.376
putting the law of the road along the,
the lake, there's all kinds of

00:48:40.409 --> 00:48:45.115
swapping going on there, all kinds of
swapping and between the city and

00:48:45.148 --> 00:48:49.756
the university. And Michael says, why
don't you kind of undo one of those

00:48:49.789 --> 00:48:55.186
and do it this way. And that's what
they did. They, they didn't put up for

00:48:55.219 --> 00:48:59.986
public auction like you typically have
to do. So. They made some swaps. We

00:49:00.019 --> 00:49:03.206
swapped them the right way down there
to a bridge and they swapped us.

00:49:03.239 --> 00:49:07.195
This is all done by paperwork and we
filed it and we got our property done.

00:49:07.228 --> 00:49:10.497
So, uh, anyway, we never had that kind
of problems you asked about our

00:49:10.530 --> 00:49:14.796
relationship with the university. But
I think the town down thing was ok.

00:49:14.829 --> 00:49:18.537
Now, let me tell you another thing
though that I, I felt real strong for

00:49:18.570 --> 00:49:22.727
the university when I was mayor. It
was necessary for us to build a new

00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:28.497
city hall, a new library and a new
police station. And the, and the cry

00:49:28.530 --> 00:49:32.526
was to move everything out south.
Let's move it all out south. And every

00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:36.276
night downtown Tempe at that time and
the, the doors were all full of

00:49:36.309 --> 00:49:41.945
drunks. Downtown Tempe was really a
shambles and I said, if we move out of

00:49:41.978 --> 00:49:46.916
here, we'll never recapture downtown
Tempe. I said that we cannot abandon

00:49:46.949 --> 00:49:51.405
this. So I talked those three, same
three council that I missed a while

00:49:51.438 --> 00:49:56.115
ago into uh moving the library
outside, which made sense where the people

00:49:56.148 --> 00:50:00.256
are and then the city hall should be
where it is now. And, and right

00:50:00.289 --> 00:50:04.905
across the street was a safeway store
that they had emptied or vacated.

00:50:04.938 --> 00:50:08.006
And we took that over and made a
police station out of it. And then they

00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:12.195
built the City Hall after I had left.
But we, we anchored it down there to

00:50:12.228 --> 00:50:15.856
anchor the city where it is. And I, I
still think that was the best uh

00:50:15.889 --> 00:50:20.477
decision to make because we needed to
be a, a partner with the university

00:50:20.510 --> 00:50:23.945
and everything is going on down there.
And the university is our godsend.

00:50:23.978 --> 00:50:29.327
As far as economics are concerned, we
had the statistics that showed that

00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:33.126
every time there's a recession, we had
a lot of those through the years,

00:50:33.159 --> 00:50:38.646
enrollment a su time and that was kids
downtown Tempe. So when had a

00:50:38.679 --> 00:50:43.135
recession, we had more customers of
that kind coming downtown Tempe. And

00:50:43.168 --> 00:50:48.756
so, and that's still the case. And so,
uh I said a su is uh is a bread

00:50:48.789 --> 00:50:53.885
basket for us economically and let's
work with them and, and for them. And

00:50:53.918 --> 00:50:56.986
I think generally that that has
happened pretty well. There's always been

00:50:57.019 --> 00:51:05.019
some conflicts but not much.

00:51:11.099 --> 00:51:16.546
Tell us about how you got appointed to
the Puerto Ricans. Ok. I told you

00:51:16.579 --> 00:51:20.146
back here. Well, I have to tell you
another one first, but it kind of

00:51:20.179 --> 00:51:26.445
leads into it. And after I left the
mayor's office in 68 that fall, I was

00:51:26.478 --> 00:51:31.175
at a wedding reception in Mesa for
Stan Turley's son who was marrying

00:51:31.208 --> 00:51:34.517
Wilfred Freestone's daughter, Wilfred
Freestone and I had gone to high

00:51:34.550 --> 00:51:38.327
school together. Stan was president of
the Senate, I believe at the time.

00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:41.595
Anyway, I grew up with all these
people. And so I was at the wedding

00:51:41.628 --> 00:51:45.526
reception, Stan Turley came over to me
and said, hey, really said, I just

00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:48.577
thought of something. He says, I'm
gonna nominate you to the governor to

00:51:48.610 --> 00:51:53.126
be on the Highway Commission. I said,
well, I've never been in that

00:51:53.159 --> 00:51:55.967
position before, but it, it's kind of
like we're in the city in it,

00:51:56.000 --> 00:52:01.126
something like that. Anyway. He, uh,
he did and I, and I forgot all about

00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:04.836
it. Frankly. I told my wife about it.
I said, I don't know when it's gonna

00:52:04.869 --> 00:52:08.186
happen. But anyway, a few days later,
the governor called me and this time

00:52:08.219 --> 00:52:11.095
it's Governor Williams, the same one
that appeared before the city council

00:52:11.128 --> 00:52:16.126
on the airport and he said, Stur has
nominated you and I'm preparing to

00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:21.566
appoint you to the Highway Commission.
He said, I owe you one. And I said

00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:24.186
, I'd forgotten about the other
incident. I said, what do you mean you owe

00:52:24.219 --> 00:52:26.767
me one? He said, don't you remember
when I came for you? And you were the

00:52:26.800 --> 00:52:30.967
only one that voted for extending the
ha the, the airport? I said, well,

00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:33.807
yeah, I do remember that. So, you
know, he appointed me to the uh highway

00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:40.066
commission where I served for five
years and that was a fantastic job. Uh

00:52:40.099 --> 00:52:45.327
uh community service wise,
multimillion dollar worth of budgets. And it

00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:50.497
was by district and my district was me
County and Yuma County and I had

00:52:50.530 --> 00:52:55.896
65% of the budget under me. And all
the other kinds were split up much,

00:52:55.929 --> 00:53:00.896
much less than this. And John Dregs
was the mayor of Phoenix. And John

00:53:00.929 --> 00:53:04.635
took me to Washington three different
times to go before the

00:53:04.668 --> 00:53:09.456
Appropriations Committee at the uh
highway Department. I guess it was

00:53:09.489 --> 00:53:12.695
trying to get money back into Arizona
for the freeway system. We had the I

00:53:12.728 --> 00:53:17.376
40 under construction from Flagstaff
to Holbrook and I dug the first

00:53:17.409 --> 00:53:22.836
shovel to start the Superstition
freeway in early 1969. So we had that

00:53:22.869 --> 00:53:26.706
going, which was a state highway, not
a freeway. And that got us less

00:53:26.739 --> 00:53:29.986
federal dollars than a freeway gets
because it's a state highway, you get

00:53:30.019 --> 00:53:33.717
less for those. And new freeways
anyway, we went to Washington many times

00:53:33.750 --> 00:53:37.635
begging for money and we were pointing
out that Texas was getting an

00:53:37.668 --> 00:53:42.017
overabundance of their gasoline tax
back to them because they had a guy as

00:53:42.050 --> 00:53:44.717
president of the United States down
there and we couldn't get our gasoline

00:53:44.750 --> 00:53:48.405
, federal gas tax that we had sent to
Washington. We couldn't get it back

00:53:48.438 --> 00:53:52.396
in proportions that we need. So we had
to fight for that all the time, all

00:53:52.429 --> 00:53:58.885
the time. And then at the end of that
term,

00:53:58.918 --> 00:54:02.477
chairman of the board one Saturday
morning, I was out in the front yard up

00:54:02.510 --> 00:54:06.436
on a ladder trimming a tree. And my
wife came out with the telephone and

00:54:06.469 --> 00:54:10.546
said, the governor's on the phone. And
she said, I told him you were up in

00:54:10.579 --> 00:54:17.146
a tree. So when I got down to the
governor said, get thee down Zus.

00:54:17.179 --> 00:54:22.405
And uh then the next thing he said,
and I had no idea if this was coming.

00:54:22.438 --> 00:54:25.986
He said, where did you go to school?
And I've always been a little

00:54:26.019 --> 00:54:29.845
sensitive. I told you about my school
and I was sensitive and I, so I say

00:54:29.878 --> 00:54:35.467
back east, I went to Mesa High which
is east of Tempe and that usually

00:54:35.500 --> 00:54:41.557
fies unsatisfied him. He said, uh he
said, well, the reason I asked that

00:54:41.590 --> 00:54:44.686
he said, I, I'm considering appointing
you to the Board of Regents. I want

00:54:44.719 --> 00:54:49.077
to make sure that you did not go to
the U VA. I said, well, I did not go

00:54:49.110 --> 00:54:54.986
to the U VA. He said, ok, he said, uh
I said, now governor, I don't want

00:54:55.019 --> 00:54:57.787
you to be embarrassed by appointing a
person like me that never attended

00:54:57.820 --> 00:55:01.546
the university don't have a degree of
any kind. He said, Rudy, I don't

00:55:01.579 --> 00:55:06.497
have a degree. Goldwater doesn't have
a degree and we're doing pretty well.

00:55:06.530 --> 00:55:09.836
I said a long game if you are. So he
appointed me to the border of

00:55:09.869 --> 00:55:13.166
regions. He said, now you're on the
Highway Commission, you gotta

00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:16.095
officially resign. So write me a
letter, resigning from the Highway

00:55:16.128 --> 00:55:21.046
Commission and then I'll appoint you
and he did that. And then I had to go

00:55:21.079 --> 00:55:25.936
before the Senate Education Committee
and satisfied them that I was

00:55:25.969 --> 00:55:30.635
capable. And then I had to appear
before the full Senate and I was only

00:55:30.668 --> 00:55:36.467
there with uh Ralph Bilby of Arizona
public service. Keith Turner was

00:55:36.500 --> 00:55:40.256
still ceo anyway, um That's what I
did. I resigned from the High

00:55:40.289 --> 00:55:45.086
Commission just a few months early and
became on, on the border regions

00:55:45.119 --> 00:55:51.296
for you were known as the A SU region
as I recall. Here's a listing of the

00:55:51.329 --> 00:55:59.329
people I serve with my first term from
74 to 83 21 regions. Governor

00:55:59.918 --> 00:56:04.865
Williams, Governor Castro governor
ballot and they were, they were members

00:56:04.898 --> 00:56:09.925
of voting members of board of Regents
ex officio but voting. And uh well

00:56:09.958 --> 00:56:13.267
in Shasa superintendent, public
school, uh public instruction, Carolyn

00:56:13.300 --> 00:56:20.445
Warner. My second time was 20 regents
and five Symington and Jane Hall and

00:56:20.478 --> 00:56:24.365
Diane Bishop and Lisa Graham were the
superintendents, but of the first

00:56:24.398 --> 00:56:31.026
group of eight of us, five of them
were U of a grads and all. But two of

00:56:31.059 --> 00:56:36.497
them lived in Tucson, Sid Woods, lived
in Yuma but he was a quarterback in

00:56:36.530 --> 00:56:41.416
the U of U of A in the thirties. Ralph
Bilby lived in Flagstaff but he's

00:56:41.449 --> 00:56:45.956
new president of public service and he
was born where the U of A's

00:56:45.989 --> 00:56:48.247
football.

00:56:48.280 --> 00:56:52.787
You talk about deep roots, but five
out of the eight were absolutely U of

00:56:52.820 --> 00:56:57.865
a people. The second time around it
wasn't much different. In, in 92

00:56:57.898 --> 00:57:02.767
uh Esther King, Art Chappell. These
are Tucson people, art chapels and

00:57:02.800 --> 00:57:08.526
turn in Phoenix. John uh Andy Hurwitz
was he a U A grad? He may have been

00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:13.517
, he, he lived in Phoenix, of course,
uh I kind of left him out is I don't

00:57:13.550 --> 00:57:16.747
think Andy was John Munger who's now
running for governor. He was down

00:57:16.780 --> 00:57:21.336
there and Don Pitt two attorneys in,
in Tucson, both of whom got their

00:57:21.369 --> 00:57:27.905
degrees at the U of A and uh Doug Wall
who was uh nau grad and uh he

00:57:27.938 --> 00:57:32.807
looked after nau and Eddie Basher and
Eddie was the most. He went to

00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:37.327
Stanford. So he, he wasn't slightly
slanted either way but still five out

00:57:37.360 --> 00:57:41.385
of that group way back in the nineties
were you of a people? But I will

00:57:41.418 --> 00:57:45.727
say they were more conciliatory, more
helpful and more accommodating than

00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:51.115
his first batch. These were old
diehards over here. I mean, and I, I went

00:57:51.148 --> 00:57:55.106
on and I said I'm not going to be
parochial. I don't think that's the

00:57:55.139 --> 00:57:58.856
right way to serve in public service.
I'm going to look at everything and

00:57:58.889 --> 00:58:03.155
get the issues, uh, hear everything
that's going on and then vote. What I

00:58:03.188 --> 00:58:08.486
think is the best way to do it. Well,
uh, the budget hearings is where I

00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:12.267
saw the parochialism more than
anywhere else. The presidents would come

00:58:12.300 --> 00:58:15.376
before us for a budget hearing and
would sit there all morning long

00:58:15.409 --> 00:58:18.526
listening to one presentation

00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:23.896
and asking questions and making
recommendations and all that. And uh when

00:58:23.929 --> 00:58:29.566
the A SU was before the president was
before us, they asked him to explain

00:58:29.599 --> 00:58:32.796
this to explain that. Could you cut
down this? Why do you have to have

00:58:32.829 --> 00:58:38.217
that? You, you don't need that. That
went on all morning long when the U

00:58:38.250 --> 00:58:43.166
of A president came before us, they
never questioned anything. Not one

00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:48.236
thing and one outstanding example, I
don't know what year it was, it was

00:58:48.269 --> 00:58:54.115
my first term. But uh we had, I don't
know who has some people. I don't

00:58:54.148 --> 00:58:57.517
know how it happened. But anyway, we
approved the budgets and during the

00:58:57.550 --> 00:59:02.816
presentation, the A SU press, he said
over here on page 78 down the third

00:59:02.849 --> 00:59:08.206
paragraph, you approved $2 million for
this. And he said we really need

00:59:08.239 --> 00:59:12.865
another 250,000 because we got about
some new equipment and we didn't have

00:59:12.898 --> 00:59:16.486
that figured into what we asked for
earlier. So I'm sure wish you could

00:59:16.519 --> 00:59:18.626
have gone down. This is a multimillion
dollar budget and they're actually

00:59:18.659 --> 00:59:23.845
another quarter of a million and we
approved it the next day in the

00:59:23.878 --> 00:59:28.916
legislature there was a, there was a
Tucson legislator and they got the

00:59:28.949 --> 00:59:31.646
budget. They had the, but I don't know
if it's next day, he had the budget

00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:35.767
there and he found out that we had
raised 250,000 for one item. He said, I

00:59:35.800 --> 00:59:39.626
, I make a motion that we raise the u
of a total budget by 250,000 to

00:59:39.659 --> 00:59:43.195
equal what they gave to a su it passed
and voted and make another 250,000.

00:59:43.228 --> 00:59:50.635
Didn't he have a pro project for it?
Now, you talk about parochialism

00:59:50.668 --> 00:59:54.135
and after your first term as board of
Recons, you, there were several

00:59:54.168 --> 01:00:01.206
years in between 10 years, exactly 10
years. I went off in 82 and then in

01:00:01.239 --> 01:00:04.077
92

01:00:04.110 --> 01:00:10.175
I don't know who went before five.
Symington. I had uh uh the way this,

01:00:10.208 --> 01:00:15.356
the reasons are appointed, a su alumni
will get a list of 1012 people.

01:00:15.389 --> 01:00:19.776
They'd like to recommend the Sun Angel
Foundation will get 10 or 12

01:00:19.809 --> 01:00:24.416
people. They'd like to the uh alumni,
they'll have a list. So the

01:00:24.449 --> 01:00:28.416
government will end up with probably
100 names from all these different

01:00:28.449 --> 01:00:34.077
people. And he has to pitch from that
end. I, I've forgotten who, who took

01:00:34.110 --> 01:00:38.336
that to him and who told me about this
friend of mine, a radio announcer,

01:00:38.369 --> 01:00:43.115
a suol Bo bo Bo is the governor looked
at him and I guess he's good at

01:00:43.148 --> 01:00:47.385
looking at things fast and, and I was
on three lists

01:00:47.418 --> 01:00:50.615
and, uh, so I made it easy for him.
Well, he'd make, he'd make three

01:00:50.648 --> 01:00:55.916
different groups happy by taking one
off of their thing. So I had it, I,

01:00:55.949 --> 01:01:00.396
uh, it was, uh loaded for me and I
didn't think about it, but uh I had

01:01:00.429 --> 01:01:06.445
some problems with Do Sington. Uh when
Jack Williams appointed me, um he

01:01:06.478 --> 01:01:09.206
said, uh, once you come over to talk
to me sometime, I'll tell you what

01:01:09.239 --> 01:01:12.405
it's about. And boy, that was fine
with me. And two days later, I was in

01:01:12.438 --> 01:01:15.916
his office and he spent a full hour
with me just outlying things that he

01:01:15.949 --> 01:01:19.916
wanted me to look at and see. I've
been on the mayor and, and, and on the

01:01:19.949 --> 01:01:22.997
Highway Commission. So I was very
familiar with protocol and all those

01:01:23.030 --> 01:01:30.506
things. So he was very helpful. And
then throughout my first three year,

01:01:30.539 --> 01:01:34.956
two years, at least I spent a lot of
time with Jack Williams because he

01:01:34.989 --> 01:01:39.477
had his ear to the ground on
everything. And I wanted him to help me and

01:01:39.510 --> 01:01:43.227
he did. But when Simon to appoint me,
I would call him, I'd say, you know

01:01:43.260 --> 01:01:46.577
, I'd like to come in and talk to
governor and, and get his ideas on what

01:01:46.610 --> 01:01:49.706
he wants me to do and how he looks at
things and what slant to put on him

01:01:49.739 --> 01:01:54.017
and all that. Finally, they gave me a
date to see it. It was a month away.

01:01:54.050 --> 01:01:59.256
He can see you on a month away and for
30 minutes. So the day before the

01:01:59.289 --> 01:02:03.195
meeting secretary called and, uh,
said, uh, the government is really busy.

01:02:03.228 --> 01:02:06.247
So could you cut your meeting down
with him for 15 minutes? So I went in

01:02:06.280 --> 01:02:10.405
and I had to wait a long time to get
to 15 minutes and he took three phone

01:02:10.438 --> 01:02:15.095
calls in that 15 minutes and he had a
girl come in the back door and tell

01:02:15.128 --> 01:02:20.155
him something. I didn't talk to the
governor five minutes. Uh, none

01:02:20.188 --> 01:02:23.396
whatsoever. And so I never made
another problem with him. So I don't know

01:02:23.429 --> 01:02:26.905
what he want me to do. I want his
philosophy at least. And what are your

01:02:26.938 --> 01:02:29.736
major aims? What do you want us to do
as regents? Which way do you want us

01:02:29.769 --> 01:02:33.186
to take the universities on, uh, on
the board of Regents in the second

01:02:33.219 --> 01:02:37.586
term? Sure. Tell us about all the
issues involved. The East Valley

01:02:37.619 --> 01:02:42.236
Partnership, which, uh, Chuck has been
when I was a, I was a founding vice

01:02:42.269 --> 01:02:45.396
president of East Valley partnership.
We formed this organization down

01:02:45.429 --> 01:02:49.695
East because we realized that the East
Valley was bigger than Tucson. If

01:02:49.728 --> 01:02:54.626
we'd get together in our political
activities, we had some power. So we

01:02:54.659 --> 01:02:58.635
got all the ex mayors to be on the
board and reformed it. And I don't know

01:02:58.668 --> 01:03:03.046
if you ever try to remember or not. I
was not, I was, and, uh, we had a

01:03:03.079 --> 01:03:08.106
big meeting out in Mesa at luncheon
when we invited everybody. You might

01:03:08.139 --> 01:03:12.506
have been with that one. And, uh, the
governor is the speaker. And so at

01:03:12.539 --> 01:03:16.336
the end of the speech, he opened up
for questions and Milt Lee, you know,

01:03:16.369 --> 01:03:21.046
Milt Lee and Mason, he's a democrat,
but uh, he support a lot of, he's

01:03:21.079 --> 01:03:24.077
very conservative and he, he just
support a lot of things. He was a good

01:03:24.110 --> 01:03:30.026
guy and he stood and I, I was, I was
on the regions now and I was keeping

01:03:30.059 --> 01:03:34.577
my hands to hold me from standing up
and during the question period

01:03:34.610 --> 01:03:37.566
because he had said some things that I
disagreed with. But Milt, we stood

01:03:37.599 --> 01:03:41.247
up and said governor, he said we here
in the East Valley who are friends

01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:46.497
of a su we were really concerned about
the mix of the border regions and

01:03:46.530 --> 01:03:51.146
uh, we just wish that you would
address that. So that's all he said I was

01:03:51.179 --> 01:03:56.896
there. Pardon? I was there. Oh, and
uh, the governor said, well, Milt, he

01:03:56.929 --> 01:04:00.807
said, I, I have looked at it and he
said, I just, uh, generally, I think

01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:03.365
it's in pretty good balance and I just
didn't think there's any reason to

01:04:03.398 --> 01:04:08.416
disturb it. And I sat there and, and I
couldn't sit on my hands any longer.

01:04:08.449 --> 01:04:11.717
So finally I stood up and I said,
we're concerned about the mix because

01:04:11.750 --> 01:04:17.550
there seems to be more people from the
U of A than we ever get from a su.

01:04:17.570 --> 01:04:19.570
And he said, well, who are those people? And I named them all that were

01:04:23.389 --> 01:04:28.717
down there. I said there's uh Esther
Capen and, and I, I did, I said, now

01:04:28.750 --> 01:04:31.796
these are all good friends of mine and
I like them very much. But we're

01:04:31.829 --> 01:04:36.807
talking here about people and I said
there's Esther Capen Tucson, Art

01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:42.396
Chala attorney in Tucson, uh, John
Munger, who now run for, uh, for

01:04:42.429 --> 01:04:47.686
governor from Tucson Don Pitt, one of
the biggest attorneys in the state

01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:52.736
in Tucson. There's a 12345,

01:04:52.769 --> 01:04:56.327
there was five of the eight just like
the first year I was on the board

01:04:56.360 --> 01:05:03.057
from Tucson. And, um, I said, uh,
that's why. And he was writing, oh, he

01:05:03.090 --> 01:05:06.247
was writing their names down. I was, I
was giving him these names. I just

01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:10.655
read to you and he was writing down.
So he made sure he had them. Well, um

01:05:10.688 --> 01:05:14.497
,

01:05:14.530 --> 01:05:19.956
I guess it was the next morning I see
next day. Yeah, it was the next day.

01:05:19.989 --> 01:05:24.816
Who was his sidekick? I know he called
me and he said, uh, Mr Callan, he

01:05:24.849 --> 01:05:28.517
said, I'm so, and so calling for the
governor and, uh, he would like for

01:05:28.550 --> 01:05:31.896
you to step down from the border
regions.

01:05:31.929 --> 01:05:34.896
And I said, well, you tell the
governor to call me because he appointed me.

01:05:34.929 --> 01:05:38.717
You didn't. So if the governor wants
to have me step down, I said, you

01:05:38.750 --> 01:05:43.026
have him call me. He said, well, he's
asked me to do that. I said, well, I

01:05:43.059 --> 01:05:46.827
said, I'm not talking to you because I
don't, I don't owe you anything.

01:05:46.860 --> 01:05:51.916
And then he got real mad and huffing
with me. And, uh, I told him, I said

01:05:51.949 --> 01:05:55.506
, you know, you didn't appoint me. And
I told him what happened the day

01:05:55.539 --> 01:05:58.776
before. He said I was there. And I
said, well, didn't I make sense with

01:05:58.809 --> 01:06:02.345
the names I gave you? And he said,
well, yeah, somewhat. But he said the

01:06:02.378 --> 01:06:05.517
governor didn't like you to do that
publicly. I said, well, I've done it

01:06:05.550 --> 01:06:08.856
privately if I'd ever get to see him,
but I never get to see him. I said,

01:06:08.889 --> 01:06:11.396
I'll tell you what and he was getting
really angry. I said, I'll tell you

01:06:11.429 --> 01:06:14.456
what you and the go, you can go with
the governor to the nearest lake and

01:06:14.489 --> 01:06:18.376
jump in it because I'm not resigning.
And I said, you know, as well as I,

01:06:18.409 --> 01:06:22.155
the only way he can get rid of me, he
can only get rid of me for a call.

01:06:22.188 --> 01:06:26.896
And I would invite him to try to get
rid of me for a cause. Uh, well, I

01:06:26.929 --> 01:06:29.736
hung up and that was the end of that.
And I served out my term and he

01:06:29.769 --> 01:06:36.046
didn't.

01:06:36.079 --> 01:06:40.445
But one of those conclusions was that
a SU was to get out of production

01:06:40.478 --> 01:06:46.155
agriculture. And we had an
experimental farm at the time and you were very

01:06:46.188 --> 01:06:52.925
instrumental in changing that into an
A SU research part. You sort of tell

01:06:52.958 --> 01:06:59.546
your view of those transactions. OK.
From the section just north of where

01:06:59.579 --> 01:07:06.456
the park is, was a farm owned by
Henne. He Hennis was a farmer and their,

01:07:06.489 --> 01:07:09.816
their daughter Dotty who was a little
younger than me. She was running it.

01:07:09.849 --> 01:07:14.276
She, they didn't have any kids, boys.
And so she had a farm, a full

01:07:14.309 --> 01:07:18.977
section farmland and I was talking and
she had started to develop it as a

01:07:19.010 --> 01:07:25.155
building and apartments and houses and
upscale everything. And she was, I

01:07:25.188 --> 01:07:27.276
was talking to her one day and I don't
know if this is original with her

01:07:27.309 --> 01:07:29.655
or not. It was original with me. She's
the first one that said, really,

01:07:29.688 --> 01:07:34.276
why don't you help them build a
research park there just south of us on

01:07:34.309 --> 01:07:38.307
that land. We old farm. And I thought
about that. I said, I think that's a

01:07:38.340 --> 01:07:42.497
great idea. So I went to the Russ
Nelson, I went to Russ Nelson. I think

01:07:42.530 --> 01:07:46.057
he'd been kicked around somewhere
else. I, I think I wasn't the only one

01:07:46.090 --> 01:07:50.217
or maybe not the first one, but he had
heard about that. Someone was

01:07:50.250 --> 01:07:54.217
recommended well, to take a look at
and that's all he knew and, but he

01:07:54.250 --> 01:07:57.316
agreed that we ought to take a look at
it. And so I got involved with it

01:07:57.349 --> 01:08:02.037
and, uh ended up as chairman of a
search committee, you might say, and we

01:08:02.070 --> 01:08:06.885
got deeper and deeper into it and it
looked more and more like it could be

01:08:06.918 --> 01:08:12.195
a great asset to a su and we had to
have some enabling legislation. We had

01:08:12.228 --> 01:08:16.376
to set it up. We just wanted to be
landlords. And uh that's what they end

01:08:16.409 --> 01:08:21.336
up where we, they, we formed a
corporation and we leased these 40 acres

01:08:21.369 --> 01:08:27.246
320 from the university for a dollar a
year for 99 years. So we are, we

01:08:27.279 --> 01:08:32.675
are running the land now and then Doug
Todd, our legislator from Tempe, he

01:08:32.708 --> 01:08:36.366
got the tax aspect of it through the
lab. And then we formed not for

01:08:36.399 --> 01:08:41.135
profit organization and we, we were
the operators of the research part. We

01:08:41.168 --> 01:08:45.506
sold bonds. As I remember we sold,
sold about, I think $13 million worth

01:08:45.539 --> 01:08:48.925
of bonds through the city of Tempe
Bonding Authority. I mean, it's through

01:08:48.958 --> 01:08:52.656
them for the bonds. They, they're
ultimately the guarantor on them, but of

01:08:52.689 --> 01:08:55.505
course, they've never had to pay
anything. And that's for the

01:08:55.538 --> 01:09:00.236
infrastructure. And we got in, uh we
got into the real serious trouble

01:09:00.269 --> 01:09:04.436
with Bruce Bat. He was very much of an
environmentalist and he had a lady

01:09:04.469 --> 01:09:09.424
working for him who was twice as tough
as he was. And our architects first

01:09:09.457 --> 01:09:15.836
rendering of his idea of a plan to
start with had uh two lakes. And uh I

01:09:15.869 --> 01:09:20.527
think there were about 35 acres of
lakes in this park. And uh I looked at

01:09:20.560 --> 01:09:24.527
that and uh I said, you know, that's
the way too much. We, we can't lease

01:09:24.560 --> 01:09:28.845
that lake. We can't, that's not a
money maker parks. That's too much water

01:09:28.878 --> 01:09:32.506
to waste to just have it there. I, so
we sent them back to the drawing

01:09:32.539 --> 01:09:36.336
board and they cut the lakes down to
17 acres just about in half. And so

01:09:36.369 --> 01:09:39.206
that's, that's what we ended up with.
But this lady in the Governer's

01:09:39.239 --> 01:09:45.006
office, she didn't like that at all.
And um they had figured out how much

01:09:45.039 --> 01:09:48.406
grass we could plant. They wanted all
desert and we said, no, wait a

01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:51.456
minute. Now we're gonna get big
corporations out there and people are

01:09:51.489 --> 01:09:54.175
gonna be flying in here to go to the
corporation and all that. We want to

01:09:54.208 --> 01:09:59.265
be a desert. We want maybe an oasis of
slight oasis in the desert, right?

01:09:59.298 --> 01:10:03.956
And uh, but so she calculated how much
grass we could have. Well, if

01:10:03.989 --> 01:10:06.635
you've seen the lake, you know, I mean
park, you know, we have the lakes

01:10:06.668 --> 01:10:09.756
going like this like this and there
are the walkways all around it and

01:10:09.789 --> 01:10:14.296
then the building sites and all that.
And our, our architect figured that

01:10:14.329 --> 01:10:17.885
with what she allotted us, you could
have a 2 ft wide strip of grass

01:10:17.918 --> 01:10:21.746
around the roads, that's all you'd
have. And the rest of it is desert. And

01:10:21.779 --> 01:10:25.286
we said that just won't work, it just
won't work. So we, we battled over

01:10:25.319 --> 01:10:30.326
that for a full year. And finally, I
think she dave in or got transferred

01:10:30.359 --> 01:10:34.345
or something. They, they finally
approved what we were doing and we had

01:10:34.378 --> 01:10:37.175
good relationship with Salt River
project cause I was going to be the

01:10:37.208 --> 01:10:43.256
source of our water and on the land
was two wells and uh we agreed that we

01:10:43.289 --> 01:10:47.866
would cap those wells and not, not
take any, any uh underground water out

01:10:47.899 --> 01:10:51.576
of the ground. Let the, let the solar
project furnish us all the water

01:10:51.609 --> 01:10:55.277
that we needed surface and everything,
the lakes and everything and that

01:10:55.310 --> 01:10:58.616
was acceptable to everyone and
especially Salt River project. They didn't

01:10:58.649 --> 01:11:03.107
want us with private wells out there
lowering the water table. So they, we

01:11:03.140 --> 01:11:07.527
resolved that we hired a young fellow,
uh Red Jones. He had had some

01:11:07.560 --> 01:11:10.527
experience in development like this
and we hired him as our chief

01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:13.626
operating officer. I guess you'd call
it. And he was pretty good and he

01:11:13.659 --> 01:11:19.996
was a good marketer. He went to uh
research Park plant of uh and uh you

01:11:20.029 --> 01:11:23.567
know, plants all over the country.
Solly Sollenberger was one of the

01:11:23.600 --> 01:11:27.006
people on the board with me and he and
I went with him several places and

01:11:27.039 --> 01:11:31.987
looked at we looked at plants or, uh,
parks that have been successful and

01:11:32.020 --> 01:11:35.446
we looked at some that had failed. We
wanna know what caused this. There

01:11:35.479 --> 01:11:40.326
was one in Texas that had failed and I
think one in Utah that they just

01:11:40.359 --> 01:11:43.416
didn't have things going on around it.
There's nothing around it to feed

01:11:43.449 --> 01:11:46.366
the people. If you try to get a client
to come in there, they go out and

01:11:46.399 --> 01:11:50.006
look around. Well, why should I come
out here place like this? So, but

01:11:50.039 --> 01:11:53.147
those that had done, well, we got a
lot of information from them and, and

01:11:53.180 --> 01:11:56.857
kind of copied what they had done.
What we do is we lease the land out

01:11:56.890 --> 01:12:01.786
there and we, and we have a floating
square footage value that's based on

01:12:01.819 --> 01:12:05.586
what's going on in the, in the whole
state and in the valley with property

01:12:05.619 --> 01:12:10.696
like that. And if it's uh eight cents
a foot and you want to buy, you want

01:12:10.729 --> 01:12:14.906
to rent 1000 ft and we'll calculate
what your rent is going to be for 99

01:12:14.939 --> 01:12:19.737
years. We, we tried to get them all.
So I say, uh to, uh go for a long

01:12:19.770 --> 01:12:23.576
term, a lot of them went for 50 years
and some of them went for a few of

01:12:23.609 --> 01:12:27.777
them went for 99 years and prepaid at
a discounted amount. So that was

01:12:27.810 --> 01:12:31.156
great for us. We got a big bundle of
cash up front that we had to guard

01:12:31.189 --> 01:12:37.527
very carefully. But, um, and then the,
uh, the rate uh fluctuates, I think

01:12:37.560 --> 01:12:41.067
it's down to about six cents a square
foot right now. Something like that.

01:12:41.100 --> 01:12:44.866
And we've had it up as high as 10
cents a square foot. So we had to let

01:12:44.899 --> 01:12:49.496
the market drive that. But we became
landlords and we were very fortunate

01:12:49.529 --> 01:12:53.817
to get, uh, Motorola had a lot of
investment out there. They built silver

01:12:53.850 --> 01:12:58.166
buildings, they build a beautiful
building for uh teaching facil alcoholic.

01:12:58.199 --> 01:13:02.147
They bring in their top people all
over the United States to schooling

01:13:02.180 --> 01:13:08.095
them in various things within their
operation that went on very well until

01:13:08.128 --> 01:13:13.015
uh they've changed uh uh operators.
And uh some of the inherited people

01:13:13.048 --> 01:13:16.476
moved to Texas as you probably know,
they moved all the Motorola just

01:13:16.509 --> 01:13:21.425
about out of here. But fortunate for
us, the uh Edward Jones company came

01:13:21.458 --> 01:13:26.476
in and bought all of the Motorola
buildings. I think it not all of the,

01:13:26.509 --> 01:13:29.876
the new building I play display and
he's the chairman of the board

01:13:29.909 --> 01:13:33.527
incidentally so he can keep me
straight with it. But uh Edward Jones was a

01:13:33.560 --> 01:13:37.237
godsend to us because they came in and
they've been great partners in it

01:13:37.270 --> 01:13:41.487
and uh paying their way. Then one of
the buildings that uh was abandoned

01:13:41.520 --> 01:13:47.317
of uh Motorola, we the flat panel
development building. A su took it over

01:13:47.350 --> 01:13:51.055
and there you tell them what they're
developing. It's a flexible display

01:13:51.088 --> 01:13:54.857
panel, big contract with the army $50
million. You see a quarterback

01:13:54.890 --> 01:13:57.647
reading something on his, on his arm,
what the coach put on there, you

01:13:57.680 --> 01:14:01.376
know, the next play will be this.
Well, soldiers can wear that on their

01:14:01.409 --> 01:14:04.626
arm too. What the commanding officer
saying back at the base, there's some

01:14:04.659 --> 01:14:08.687
guys right over the hill in front of
there, go over and get them. That's

01:14:08.720 --> 01:14:14.296
all I know about flat, flat panel. And
how long did you serve on the board

01:14:14.329 --> 01:14:20.265
of the regions or not? That the board
of the research part? Well, I been

01:14:20.298 --> 01:14:25.626
there from the beginning, I'm still on
it. I think we started in uh 81. 81.

01:14:25.659 --> 01:14:31.366
You started the process close to 30
years. I agree. And uh he served as

01:14:31.399 --> 01:14:36.175
vice president of that board for most
of those years and a lot of those

01:14:36.208 --> 01:14:42.467
years. Well, it's just a work of love.
I, I look at it that way and,

01:14:42.500 --> 01:14:48.187
but during your second term on the
board of regions, the issues, I recall

01:14:48.220 --> 01:14:53.866
that like you to comment on uh closure
Williams Air Force Base,

01:14:53.899 --> 01:14:59.416
possibility of a su having a new
campus. Therefore, the U of a regions,

01:14:59.449 --> 01:15:04.147
one of the new campus for U of A. If a
su got one, could you talk about

01:15:04.180 --> 01:15:11.456
some of the interactions relative to
those discussions? You bet. Um

01:15:11.489 --> 01:15:16.416
Well, of course, we were trying to
separate the military from the civilian

01:15:16.449 --> 01:15:19.737
use out there and I was on the
committee. Chuck was on a separate

01:15:19.770 --> 01:15:23.277
committee but I was on one who made up
of ex mayors and leaders in the

01:15:23.310 --> 01:15:27.805
communities. And uh we were trying to
decide what recommendations to make

01:15:27.838 --> 01:15:32.046
for the use of it, of it and the
military. In fact, we were dealing with

01:15:32.079 --> 01:15:35.196
the military, not the US government,
of course, it was through them, but

01:15:35.229 --> 01:15:39.925
we had to deal with them and, and see
what they would permit us to do how

01:15:39.958 --> 01:15:46.135
we would use this property. And so we
had all kinds of applications and 12

01:15:46.168 --> 01:15:48.726
or three of the outstanding ones. One
is the, uh, I think I missed this

01:15:48.759 --> 01:15:53.425
earlier. Uh, the homeless people,
people that look after the homeless all

01:15:53.458 --> 01:15:57.805
over the valley. They wanted to take
all the houses. What are over 700

01:15:57.838 --> 01:16:04.206
houses, 607 611 original house, 611
houses where the military live. Well,

01:16:04.239 --> 01:16:08.246
the homeless wanted to take all those
houses, 600 of them and put a, put

01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:12.015
these homeless people in these houses
for a place for them to live. And I

01:16:12.048 --> 01:16:14.296
asked them when they were presented. I
said, well, then what are you gonna

01:16:14.329 --> 01:16:17.567
do with them? They don't have any
food. They don't have a job. Are you

01:16:17.600 --> 01:16:21.095
gonna run out there every day with a
truckload of food? Uh, I said, that

01:16:21.128 --> 01:16:25.506
doesn't make sense. I said it's a very
poor use of what I said here that

01:16:25.539 --> 01:16:29.196
and I feel sorry for the homeless
people, but that wouldn't work. That was

01:16:29.229 --> 01:16:32.786
the position I took. And the board did
generally. And another one was the

01:16:32.819 --> 01:16:37.717
Feds wanted to put a federal
penitentiary right where his office is not

01:16:37.750 --> 01:16:42.425
just about. And, uh, we talked him out
of that. We, because we had already

01:16:42.458 --> 01:16:47.226
had the community college buildings
there that, that was still on the

01:16:47.259 --> 01:16:50.696
process. Ok. We were trying to put a
Gilbert Community College extension

01:16:50.729 --> 01:16:54.357
out there as well as an issue. And I
said, we don't want a federal prison

01:16:54.390 --> 01:16:58.786
right in the middle of educational
facilities. And they were so they

01:16:58.819 --> 01:17:02.635
finally back down from that. And I
think those are the two biggest. And

01:17:02.668 --> 01:17:05.595
with the golf course, of course, we
had to leave it to the Indians because

01:17:05.628 --> 01:17:09.885
that golf course was built on Indian
lands. I was even part of that when I

01:17:09.918 --> 01:17:14.095
was at the bank in China. In the
fifties, the rotary club took on the

01:17:14.128 --> 01:17:16.956
project of building a golf course, a
nine hole golf course in

01:17:16.989 --> 01:17:19.956
Williamsville for the military. We
started raising money. Of course, I

01:17:19.989 --> 01:17:23.746
being a banker, I was a chair
treasurer of the group. And but then I

01:17:23.779 --> 01:17:26.906
didn't stay long because I came to
Tempe. And so I left that behind, but

01:17:26.939 --> 01:17:29.706
they went ahead and raised the money
and built a golf course out there and

01:17:29.739 --> 01:17:34.885
, and gave it to the Williams Air
Force Base and, but it's on Indian land.

01:17:34.918 --> 01:17:39.385
So, in this transaction, now the
Indians came into it and, uh, had a lot

01:17:39.418 --> 01:17:42.756
to say and they finally agreed,

01:17:42.789 --> 01:17:46.175
uh, I believe, to stay like they were
with, if we promise never to build a

01:17:46.208 --> 01:17:50.135
building on that land because it's a
burial, a lot of burial grounds there

01:17:50.168 --> 01:17:53.796
for them. They actually bought the
land from the federal government for

01:17:53.829 --> 01:17:59.246
$3.1 million. The course. Oh, the, oh,
ok. Well, that happened then while

01:17:59.279 --> 01:18:02.546
they were raising the money, I thought
the Indians were still, I mean, it

01:18:02.579 --> 01:18:06.156
was on their land originally. Ok. But
anyway, the Gulf War is still there

01:18:06.189 --> 01:18:10.857
and it's, uh, I played a few times
pretty nice but there was a lot of

01:18:10.890 --> 01:18:16.305
interaction on the border regions
relative to expansion of that U in U of

01:18:16.338 --> 01:18:20.906
A. Right? Because they had to get
something every time a if you did.

01:18:20.939 --> 01:18:24.586
Absolutely. That happened throughout
all of my experience. But they, they

01:18:24.619 --> 01:18:30.576
wanted one too and they came up with a
plan.

01:18:30.609 --> 01:18:36.256
They have a, they had a big park down
there that I was a major tenant, a

01:18:36.289 --> 01:18:42.635
big company, big corporation, IBMIBM.
Yeah, IBM. Out east of Tucson, you

01:18:42.668 --> 01:18:45.857
know, they have, they have big
acreages out there, just lots of land and

01:18:45.890 --> 01:18:52.937
IBM was the main tenant. And, um, so
they came up with the idea of taking

01:18:52.970 --> 01:18:58.777
some of that land out there for uh
East branch campus of the U of A and

01:18:58.810 --> 01:19:02.956
they got it through the border
regions. And, uh, I don't think it lasted

01:19:02.989 --> 01:19:06.626
hardly any time because of what they
were doing. They, they put the class

01:19:06.659 --> 01:19:13.366
, I think they put handicapped kids
out there. It seemed like, I think

01:19:13.399 --> 01:19:16.916
they were putting handicapped and it's
10 miles out of town and that's the

01:19:16.949 --> 01:19:19.626
worst. You need it right downtown
where the people can get their

01:19:19.659 --> 01:19:23.067
handicapped kids down downtown to the
school anyway. They put the wrong

01:19:23.100 --> 01:19:25.666
thing out there and they had the wrong
curriculum. I think everything went

01:19:25.699 --> 01:19:29.317
wrong and it didn't last very long. I
think it lasted a year or two or

01:19:29.350 --> 01:19:33.626
three and they had to bring it back
onto the main campus, but they had to

01:19:33.659 --> 01:19:39.135
have a research park. So they ended up
and this was the, was the most

01:19:39.168 --> 01:19:42.906
interesting thing and Don Pitt
engineered this and I gave him credit for

01:19:42.939 --> 01:19:48.567
being a very, very smart lawyer.

01:19:48.600 --> 01:19:56.600
They sold the university sold $96
million worth of bonds to buy the part

01:19:59.029 --> 01:20:05.796
they did that. And then, and IBM
bought the bonds that they are attended

01:20:05.829 --> 01:20:11.376
in the park, but they bought the
bonds. Now this was done for tax purposes.

01:20:11.409 --> 01:20:15.187
And they also, so they own the bonds,
but they're a tenant now of the

01:20:15.220 --> 01:20:17.726
University of Arizona and they were
paying rent to the University of

01:20:17.759 --> 01:20:25.196
Arizona. So they figured it out that
the every time a bond

01:20:25.229 --> 01:20:27.277
matured,

01:20:27.310 --> 01:20:32.696
let me take this and get this straight

01:20:32.729 --> 01:20:36.406
Well, I, I can't get it straight. I
couldn't get it straight then. But,

01:20:36.439 --> 01:20:40.046
but what they were doing is then as
the, all I know is that when the, when

01:20:40.079 --> 01:20:44.036
the rent came due to the university
from IBM, they would pay their, their

01:20:44.069 --> 01:20:48.416
regular rent and they would use that
to retire the bonds

01:20:48.449 --> 01:20:51.786
cause the university owned the bonds
and they were getting money rent from

01:20:51.819 --> 01:20:55.536
the UN, the park out there. And so is
a way that IBM bought it from a,

01:20:55.569 --> 01:21:01.217
from a tax advantage reason and Don
Pitt worked that out and it worked,

01:21:01.250 --> 01:21:04.555
they sold the bonds and, and the last
time I talked, I was on that board

01:21:04.588 --> 01:21:07.397
for years, I just resigned from it two
years ago. I said there's no need

01:21:07.430 --> 01:21:11.046
of me being on the board down in
Tucson and driving all the way back and

01:21:11.079 --> 01:21:14.506
forth and I can't stand what's going
on. So, but anyway, they did that and

01:21:14.539 --> 01:21:21.027
, and, but now they're in serious
trouble. Um IBM had some empty buildings

01:21:21.060 --> 01:21:25.976
and uh, well, no, they had some people
in the buildings with 10 years left

01:21:26.009 --> 01:21:31.385
on their lease but, but the landlord
which is IBM wasn't maintaining the

01:21:31.418 --> 01:21:34.675
building. So when the buildings were
about ready to become empty, the

01:21:34.708 --> 01:21:38.246
roofs were all gone. They hadn't kept
the roofs up and I was still on the

01:21:38.279 --> 01:21:41.845
board. That was just three years ago
and the roofs were gone. It's gonna

01:21:41.878 --> 01:21:47.336
take $6 million to repair, the roofs
of these buildings that IBM had kept

01:21:47.369 --> 01:21:52.366
and leased out and didn't keep up. So,
and the, the contract with all of

01:21:52.399 --> 01:21:57.826
this when a building becomes vacant,
it reverts to the search bar. So we

01:21:57.859 --> 01:22:03.586
were gonna get these buildings back
with a $6 million repair on a roof.

01:22:03.619 --> 01:22:07.296
And we, we got, I bet there's 15
lawyers still working on that. They got

01:22:07.329 --> 01:22:12.515
lawyers all over IBM. Moved to Texas,
I think, or somewhere. Yeah. Well,

01:22:12.548 --> 01:22:16.656
they closed down a lot of the, well,
we were dealing with an office out of

01:22:16.689 --> 01:22:19.857
Texas and they had about four or five
Texas lawyers and we had five or six

01:22:19.890 --> 01:22:23.656
up here and when I left they hadn't
resolved anything. I don't know what

01:22:23.689 --> 01:22:29.786
happened, but Don Pitt engineered that
thing and it was clever but, uh, if

01:22:29.819 --> 01:22:33.046
there's a crack in it could come up
and that's what came up. So, but

01:22:33.079 --> 01:22:35.737
anyway, they had to have a research
part because we had one that was the

01:22:35.770 --> 01:22:39.956
whole thing and, but they didn't have
anything like we put ours together

01:22:39.989 --> 01:22:44.987
and it's bigger than ours, but it's,
it hasn't been very successful.

01:22:45.020 --> 01:22:51.217
Um, let's talk more generally about
perspectives over all these years of

01:22:51.250 --> 01:22:57.536
your interactions with the university
over 5060 years. Now, uh, you saw a

01:22:57.569 --> 01:23:02.675
lot of a su presidents come and go and
you hired a lot of them as the

01:23:02.708 --> 01:23:08.866
Board of Regents responsibility. Uh,
could you sort of go through those

01:23:08.899 --> 01:23:16.899
reflective uh president started with
uh Zam or so and, and, and just say,

01:23:17.149 --> 01:23:21.326
what's your perspective of their
contribution to the university and the

01:23:21.359 --> 01:23:26.147
development of university? Well, of
course, I wasn't officially there with

01:23:26.180 --> 01:23:31.385
Durham but uh I did watch what he was
doing and I think academically, of

01:23:31.418 --> 01:23:36.885
course, he was in the position where
it was growing exponentially. And um

01:23:36.918 --> 01:23:42.237
I think he started more things because
of that And, uh, I think he had

01:23:42.270 --> 01:23:45.616
good rapport with the legislature. He
spoke, well, of course, the war

01:23:45.649 --> 01:23:49.616
start speaking when they're five years
old, he's good. But, uh, and I

01:23:49.649 --> 01:23:53.406
think he was respected in the
community. He was Rotarian and he's a, he's

01:23:53.439 --> 01:23:56.076
a, he's a very friendly guy. He played
the piano so he'd always get the

01:23:56.109 --> 01:23:59.036
rotary early and he'd be over there
playing the piano while we were coming

01:23:59.069 --> 01:24:03.717
in and he'd play for our songs. He's
just a regular guy. And, uh, so I

01:24:03.750 --> 01:24:08.156
like him, although I had no real
direct dealings with him when I came on,

01:24:08.189 --> 01:24:13.826
it was Schwa. And, uh, he had two
things going. What was the, the guy's

01:24:13.859 --> 01:24:16.487
deal that went on for years and years
and years. He left his class and

01:24:16.520 --> 01:24:22.015
went to Tucson for the march in a
parade.

01:24:22.048 --> 01:24:30.048
Starsky affair, uh, was really tough
on swa and then the, the Kush affair

01:24:30.430 --> 01:24:34.687
was the ending blow for Schwa. You
know, the Kush affair was the thing

01:24:34.720 --> 01:24:37.996
where, and I was at that game, believe
it or not. I think we were playing

01:24:38.029 --> 01:24:43.527
Washington or somebody and our punter
was doing a terrible job and Greg

01:24:43.560 --> 01:24:46.696
and I were sitting on the end in the
end zone right behind the goalpost.

01:24:46.729 --> 01:24:50.107
That's as good as you can get when
you're out of town. And the punter

01:24:50.140 --> 01:24:52.696
missed about three punts. And I told
Greg, I said, you know, I'm gonna go

01:24:52.729 --> 01:24:56.496
down and volunteer to punt. I think I
can punch, go. Well, that was the

01:24:56.529 --> 01:24:59.956
night that they claimed that Kush hit
the boy, he came off the team and

01:24:59.989 --> 01:25:06.067
Kush hit him in the stomach, I think.
Anyway, the, the fight was on and um

01:25:06.100 --> 01:25:11.897
, uh, I was with Swara on campus. We
had, uh, there's a sorority that had

01:25:11.930 --> 01:25:15.925
a luncheon in uh old Maine or not old
Maine, but in the activity that we

01:25:15.958 --> 01:25:21.756
were student student building. Anyway,
both of John and I spoke to the

01:25:21.789 --> 01:25:24.946
girls and we were walking back across
the mall. I was going to my car to

01:25:24.979 --> 01:25:28.036
leave and he's going to his office.
And he said, uh, do you have a minute

01:25:28.069 --> 01:25:31.885
to step in my office? I said, sure. So
we went upstairs the old office,

01:25:31.918 --> 01:25:37.147
whichever president has had for 100
years and he shut the door and he had

01:25:37.180 --> 01:25:40.277
never shut the door behind him when we
were gonna talk. We just didn't

01:25:40.310 --> 01:25:45.595
need to. I said, oh, what, what's
this? Well, this was,

01:25:45.628 --> 01:25:50.576
I think it's Wednesday or third
Wednesday or so. And we had a big game

01:25:50.609 --> 01:25:54.976
coming up that week and the cushing
was on, it was in the papers. And uh

01:25:55.009 --> 01:25:59.925
he said I just want you to know that
I'm going to fire Frank right after

01:25:59.958 --> 01:26:03.586
the game Saturday night and he thought
it'd be a secret, you know, and

01:26:03.619 --> 01:26:07.506
he'd keep it secret until after the
game. And the first thing I said, I

01:26:07.539 --> 01:26:11.717
said, John, don't you think you could
wait till the season is over?

01:26:11.750 --> 01:26:14.976
Because there's all kinds of hearings
and everything going on to see what

01:26:15.009 --> 01:26:18.527
really happened. And if anything
happened, I said, I, I don't think I

01:26:18.560 --> 01:26:21.265
would, I would advise against that,
but you're the president, you can do

01:26:21.298 --> 01:26:25.467
what you ought to. Well, it got into
the newspapers and then the fight was

01:26:25.500 --> 01:26:32.675
on and, uh, uh, that night we won the
game and the kids carried Kush off

01:26:32.708 --> 01:26:35.826
on their shoulders. So, you know,
where the division was? It was the

01:26:35.859 --> 01:26:40.626
athletic people against the
university. And, uh, this went on for a long

01:26:40.659 --> 01:26:44.046
time and it was pretty sad because
this kid had been in trouble before in

01:26:44.079 --> 01:26:48.076
high school and his family had been in
trouble with schools where this boy

01:26:48.109 --> 01:26:52.496
had been, everything was wrong with
that family. And so it, it came down

01:26:52.529 --> 01:26:55.805
on us and so we just written it out,
maybe that that wouldn't have

01:26:55.838 --> 01:27:00.866
happened, but it was the end of Kush.
So he had to, he just let him go and

01:27:00.899 --> 01:27:08.746
it uh was a very difficult situation
for the supporters now and, and Russ

01:27:08.779 --> 01:27:13.036
Nelson didn't understand the support
the athletics gave and I didn't want

01:27:13.069 --> 01:27:17.717
this to be an athletic university or
jock college as you call it. But, uh

01:27:17.750 --> 01:27:22.237
, we went to the rose bowl and, uh, I
guess it's when I was president, the

01:27:22.270 --> 01:27:26.256
lady is 787

01:27:26.289 --> 01:27:29.206
and Russ Nelson would sit with him and
his wife, my wife sat there with

01:27:29.239 --> 01:27:34.036
the, with the people and of course we
won that Rose bowl and, uh, well,

01:27:34.069 --> 01:27:39.226
the crowd went wild and coming back on
the plane. I said, now John, I know

01:27:39.259 --> 01:27:45.036
you don't like Russ Russ, you, I know
you don't like athletics, but the

01:27:45.069 --> 01:27:49.206
people were at that game and go to our
stadium are the same ones that give

01:27:49.239 --> 01:27:52.506
big bucks to the College of Law and
the college of everything else. It's

01:27:52.539 --> 01:27:58.277
the same people, the same donors also
like athletics. And so you have to

01:27:58.310 --> 01:28:01.446
mix them and I don't mean to let
athletes overbear, but that's what it's

01:28:01.479 --> 01:28:04.635
about and this Rose bowl is gonna help
you. And sure enough the next year

01:28:04.668 --> 01:28:08.416
, they got the biggest increase in
contributions from everybody they've

01:28:08.449 --> 01:28:12.586
ever had because of an a, a successful
athletic program, whether you like

01:28:12.619 --> 01:28:20.156
it or not. It's a fact. But, um, he
wasn't high Russ, um,

01:28:20.189 --> 01:28:26.317
uh, was helpful on the, oh, along
about that time too. We were looking for

01:28:26.350 --> 01:28:32.726
a site for a branch campus in the west
side. And Esther Ken and I were

01:28:32.759 --> 01:28:36.246
formed from the uh on the committee.

01:28:36.279 --> 01:28:42.967
I hope I have my ears. Right. And uh
Diane, I'm no, uh Karoly Warner was

01:28:43.000 --> 01:28:47.786
appointed with us to look for a site
for a west side campus. And so we did

01:28:47.819 --> 01:28:51.206
, we went all on the west side, up and
down and all around And we, we

01:28:51.239 --> 01:28:55.086
ended up with the site that they chose
was our recommendation. We think

01:28:55.119 --> 01:28:59.055
it's size, the size is right. The
location is right. And, and all of that.

01:28:59.088 --> 01:29:02.036
And so we made that recommendation and
it turned out and of course, it

01:29:02.069 --> 01:29:05.192
had to be funded and all that. Now,
Russ is very cautious about that

01:29:05.225 --> 01:29:09.362
because, you know, if you're gonna
take money off the campus, you know, we

01:29:09.395 --> 01:29:13.601
, that's, we're gonna lose it on the
campus. If we gotta take $10 million

01:29:13.634 --> 01:29:16.331
to start some buildings out there,
that's 10 million that I need right

01:29:16.364 --> 01:29:23.095
here. And I can understand that. But,
um, he, he did, he did go along with

01:29:23.128 --> 01:29:27.305
it and it did happen. And, you know, I
went to all the early graduations

01:29:27.338 --> 01:29:31.687
out there at the campus and you talk
about gratification for sweating

01:29:31.720 --> 01:29:36.717
through something like that to make it
a reality. I got paid 10 times.

01:29:36.750 --> 01:29:41.967
There were six and seven people in the
audience for every graduate. That's

01:29:42.000 --> 01:29:45.226
the way the people were supporting
that institution out there. It's mostly

01:29:45.259 --> 01:29:49.717
family but 66 times or seven times as
many people came as there were

01:29:49.750 --> 01:29:55.666
students. So that's support and the
need was there, obviously. So, uh, so

01:29:55.699 --> 01:29:58.866
it took, it took money off of the main
campus, but it gave kids a chance

01:29:58.899 --> 01:30:01.656
to go to school. They probably
wouldn't have had one. And we stayed on the

01:30:01.689 --> 01:30:09.689
campus about the same time you were
very active with the, uh Sun Angels

01:30:10.359 --> 01:30:15.885
and the foundation of Sun Angels and
the creation of the golf course. I

01:30:15.918 --> 01:30:21.626
don't worry, you're not. Yes. Right at
the end of my term, which was 80 to

01:30:21.659 --> 01:30:27.135
just before that Keith Turley who I
went to high school with,

01:30:27.168 --> 01:30:34.086
uh, Harry Sw ra uh Rosensweig. Harry
Rosensweig and Dan Martin were on the

01:30:34.119 --> 01:30:38.487
Sun Angel board and they kept after
me, they want me to come on the board.

01:30:38.520 --> 01:30:43.156
And, uh, this is like in 81 I said,
I'm on the board of Regents and I

01:30:43.189 --> 01:30:46.987
don't think it's appropriate for a
reason to be on a booster group for one

01:30:47.020 --> 01:30:49.777
of the universities. Although down
south, I guarantee you all these people

01:30:49.810 --> 01:30:52.196
,

01:30:52.229 --> 01:30:56.687
I tell you another story about Sid
Woods later. But anyway, I said, I just

01:30:56.720 --> 01:30:59.897
don't think appropriate. And I said,
I, I just, I can't do it with a clear

01:30:59.930 --> 01:31:03.796
conscience. So in 82 I went off the
board and I immediately went on to the

01:31:03.829 --> 01:31:08.406
, to the sun board and uh we did a lot
of things. They were on their way

01:31:08.439 --> 01:31:13.555
up with doing a lot of good things and
what we did, the Suns have bought

01:31:13.588 --> 01:31:18.956
20,000 tickets on the west side. Prime
tickets paid regular price for them.

01:31:18.989 --> 01:31:22.925
We paid whatever the going rate was.
Then we would jack them up a third

01:31:22.958 --> 01:31:27.647
or f or two thirds, maybe double in
the 50 yard line. And we sold those

01:31:27.680 --> 01:31:32.277
tickets and that extra money. Uh, we,
we made it and, uh, then we would

01:31:32.310 --> 01:31:36.237
give it back to the university in some
way, we would fund things for them.

01:31:36.270 --> 01:31:40.036
And the reason we did that and I
finally got this, there was a guy in the

01:31:40.069 --> 01:31:44.305
athletic department that, that wanted
the Sun Angel Foundation to be

01:31:44.338 --> 01:31:48.397
inside the athletic department. And I
said, you don't understand how it

01:31:48.430 --> 01:31:52.726
functions. And let me tell you, I'll
give you an example.

01:31:52.759 --> 01:31:56.555
We buy these tickets and pay the
record price and then we jack them up and

01:31:56.588 --> 01:32:00.476
we sell them and I have a list of my
customers and at the beginning of the

01:32:00.509 --> 01:32:03.496
year they send out these notices and
people send their money in and if

01:32:03.529 --> 01:32:06.476
they don't send their money in, then
they say, hey, Rudy, there's 10 of

01:32:06.509 --> 01:32:11.326
your people that haven't paid yet. So
I get on the phone and call them.

01:32:11.359 --> 01:32:14.147
Well, we had a bank of phones over
there and I was in there when I went in

01:32:14.180 --> 01:32:17.946
to make my calls and Dan Martin was
there. You know, his brother was mayor

01:32:17.979 --> 01:32:23.305
of Phoenix and Martin Martin built the
airport and, uh, part of us of the

01:32:23.338 --> 01:32:27.567
north end zone. So they're big
contractors. He's big contractor, big money

01:32:27.600 --> 01:32:31.717
people. And he was on the phone with
his clients, with his customers and

01:32:31.750 --> 01:32:35.746
there was another builder, I'm sure.
And old Dan raised his voice and what

01:32:35.779 --> 01:32:39.376
the hell do you mean you're not gonna
buy your tickets this year? And he

01:32:39.409 --> 01:32:43.467
was talking to him like that. And
finally, he said, now, Joe, I know that

01:32:43.500 --> 01:32:47.717
you go to Las Vegas 12 times a year. I
know that you go up there, take a

01:32:47.750 --> 01:32:52.425
bunch of people with you once you skip
one month and buy these tickets.

01:32:52.458 --> 01:32:56.595
And he said, ok, ok, I'll buy, now I
told this guy in the athletic

01:32:56.628 --> 01:33:00.476
department, now you can't do that. You
cannot talk to people out there.

01:33:00.509 --> 01:33:04.967
You're an employee of the university
and you can't hard nose them by

01:33:05.000 --> 01:33:08.586
going for, to go to Las Vegas or not.
He'll kick you clear out of the room

01:33:08.619 --> 01:33:12.385
if you talk to him like Dan Martin can
cause he's just nobody of his. And

01:33:12.418 --> 01:33:17.286
that's the way it works. We can get
those tickets paid and you can't, well

01:33:17.319 --> 01:33:22.196
, they finally moved, athlete, moved
into athletic department and, and it

01:33:22.229 --> 01:33:27.156
struck me because that's just exactly
what I said. I gave up my two seats

01:33:27.189 --> 01:33:30.675
about three years ago. I've had them
in that stadium since it was built

01:33:30.708 --> 01:33:33.217
and my wife got to where she just
couldn't go to the game. She's crippled

01:33:33.250 --> 01:33:36.366
up with skiing accidents. I wish she
couldn't go to the game. So, three

01:33:36.399 --> 01:33:38.845
years in a row, she never went to a
game. I didn't go to some of them

01:33:38.878 --> 01:33:42.696
because we were up here, of course. So
I gave them up. I had those tickets

01:33:42.729 --> 01:33:46.576
all that year. I never got a single
call from anyone in the athletic

01:33:46.609 --> 01:33:50.046
department. Say, hey, Mr Camelot,
you're going to renew your tickets. And

01:33:50.079 --> 01:33:53.675
that, that proved my point again. Now,
if I'd been an athletic or, I mean

01:33:53.708 --> 01:33:57.496
, in the sun was over here, I'd have
gotten a call for some guy said, what

01:33:57.529 --> 01:34:02.286
the hell is the matter? Camel? Anyway,
I was asking about your involvement

01:34:02.319 --> 01:34:06.687
with the golf course. That, that was
my next thing. Uh, we decided that we

01:34:06.720 --> 01:34:12.067
wanted to build a golf course for su
and, uh I think I was cheering when

01:34:12.100 --> 01:34:16.626
it started over the Sun Angels when it
started in mid eighties. And, uh,

01:34:16.659 --> 01:34:20.107
so we, we created a committee, a golf
committee and appointed Solly

01:34:20.140 --> 01:34:23.067
Sollenberger as the chairman and Solly
was a golfer and his son was a

01:34:23.100 --> 01:34:27.976
former state champion and he's good
and a good man, a good business man.

01:34:28.009 --> 01:34:32.055
Just a great guy. I always, so we
formed a golfing committee and started

01:34:32.088 --> 01:34:35.265
putting it together and started
getting all the land down there and Rusty

01:34:35.298 --> 01:34:39.706
Lyon was one of our big helpers and,
and Steve or Keith Turley in Arizona

01:34:39.739 --> 01:34:43.845
Public Service. They, they own big
chunks of land in the river and most of

01:34:43.878 --> 01:34:48.967
this was dumping grounds. And, uh,
there were sand beds for, for industry

01:34:49.000 --> 01:34:55.726
and we got just about all of that
donated, uh, for the golf course, except

01:34:55.759 --> 01:35:00.756
11 piece that was owned by Peter
Hewitt. Peter Hewitt out of Nebraska, the

01:35:00.789 --> 01:35:05.246
biggest, biggest contractor in the
world, I guess it was. And they had a

01:35:05.279 --> 01:35:10.128
piece of land and they were gonna give
it to us at a bargain, but not much.

01:35:10.199 --> 01:35:12.199
And it's interesting to know I was on the United Bank Board for many, many

01:35:14.359 --> 01:35:19.555
years with a guy named with Peter Kitt
Junior, who was an attorney and F

01:35:19.588 --> 01:35:24.786
in Tucson. And he was the one dealing
for the land for the A su golf

01:35:24.819 --> 01:35:29.425
course and we had to pay him for it

01:35:29.458 --> 01:35:33.937
and all, all the trails lead by. But,
uh, we did get it at a bargain, but

01:35:33.970 --> 01:35:37.055
we got, I think it's 80 acres we got
from them. I had to pay something for

01:35:37.088 --> 01:35:41.696
it, but the rest of it was donated and
anyone that donated 250,000 or more

01:35:41.729 --> 01:35:46.586
, we put a great big cement ball on
the tee box and put their name on it

01:35:46.619 --> 01:35:51.277
like bashes or Arizona public servants
or whoever gave us their names on

01:35:51.310 --> 01:35:54.296
there forever and ever cause they gave
us the land to create the golf

01:35:54.329 --> 01:35:59.866
course. And we opened it to play in uh
90. We just had our uh 20th

01:35:59.899 --> 01:36:04.805
anniversary and it's been a great
thing for our golf team and many other

01:36:04.838 --> 01:36:08.737
things. And we, we've uh, made some
money for the golf for the A L A

01:36:08.770 --> 01:36:12.476
department. And all of our surplus
goes to A L A department. We operated

01:36:12.509 --> 01:36:16.555
as a private business and I just got a
report just this morning for last

01:36:16.588 --> 01:36:20.696
month and we're struggling now because
golfing is down and, and everything

01:36:20.729 --> 01:36:24.515
is down as you well know, but we're,
we're cutting back on our personnel

01:36:24.548 --> 01:36:28.416
and we're, we're trying to survive
just like everybody else is, but

01:36:28.449 --> 01:36:32.706
there's some other suggested uses of
that land and, uh, I suspect that it

01:36:32.739 --> 01:36:38.446
will be taken some time for other
things, expansion of the campus. I think

01:36:38.479 --> 01:36:42.055
it will cause it, it makes sense and,
uh, I don't like it, but, uh, it

01:36:42.088 --> 01:36:48.406
does make sense when we start up, I'll
pick up, um, with your involvement

01:36:48.439 --> 01:36:56.246
in Sun Angels and the golf, uh course.
But to bring up your involvement

01:36:56.279 --> 01:37:01.107
with athletics and the creation of the
Fiesta Bowl and the Diablos and all

01:37:01.140 --> 01:37:07.897
that. Is that ok? Ok. Um, because that
was a, I mean, as she was going

01:37:07.930 --> 01:37:11.626
through the transition of being
nationally recognized and we had to sort

01:37:11.659 --> 01:37:16.116
of buy our way in that. I can give a
story about how why the diab started

01:37:16.149 --> 01:37:21.217
and how we merged into being the
official host for the festival. Ok, Rego.

01:37:21.250 --> 01:37:23.706
 Not,

01:37:23.739 --> 01:37:30.175
well, besides your involvement with
the, um, uh, starting, uh, the golf

01:37:30.208 --> 01:37:35.147
course and the sun to the sun, Angel,
so Angel Foundation and so forth,

01:37:35.180 --> 01:37:41.546
you were quite involved with when a su
was trying to emerge into the

01:37:41.579 --> 01:37:46.546
national spotlight and athletics and
had difficulty getting into bowl

01:37:46.579 --> 01:37:51.706
games and it was decided somewhere
that, well, we should just have our own

01:37:51.739 --> 01:37:56.135
bowl and support it. Uh Could you talk
about your involvement with that?

01:37:56.168 --> 01:38:01.345
Well, at that time, I was on the uh
Sun Angel board and uh the people

01:38:01.378 --> 01:38:06.156
there had the same ideas. We would
like to help a SU come from a border

01:38:06.189 --> 01:38:11.437
conference school into the big time
and we were willing to raise money to

01:38:11.470 --> 01:38:15.277
, to help them do that. In fact, some
of the surplus money that we were

01:38:15.310 --> 01:38:19.857
making on the tickets we committed to
doing that. So when the Fiesta Bowl

01:38:19.890 --> 01:38:24.506
was formed and I've forgotten the old
gentleman's name. I'm sure he's

01:38:24.539 --> 01:38:28.987
deceased now. I lived in Paradise
Valley and he funded uh several of us

01:38:29.020 --> 01:38:34.226
going around the country to talk about
two people about uh another vote.

01:38:34.259 --> 01:38:39.647
And out of that came uh the creation
of the festival and we got started. I

01:38:39.680 --> 01:38:43.976
think I can't remember the dates. I
think it's in the seventies. Well, the

01:38:44.009 --> 01:38:49.226
Diablos were started in 1968

01:38:49.259 --> 01:38:53.817
and we were organized at first because
an expansion team was coming to

01:38:53.850 --> 01:38:58.496
town, a baseball team, the Seattle
Pilots, they had been formed up in

01:38:58.529 --> 01:39:04.206
Seattle and they were coming to town
the next spring which be 69 to play

01:39:04.239 --> 01:39:09.076
baseball or practice or spring
training. And so the, the apps were formed

01:39:09.109 --> 01:39:12.326
and, uh, Don Lee was the chairman of
the group and put it together. He and

01:39:12.359 --> 01:39:17.726
I are the only two uh original members
that are still active in the club,

01:39:17.759 --> 01:39:21.476
but we were formed so we could park
cars and take tickets and sell

01:39:21.509 --> 01:39:24.756
programs and sell advertising in the
program. We did everything to help

01:39:24.789 --> 01:39:28.956
the team and to raise some money for
the city. A guy of the name of Eb

01:39:28.989 --> 01:39:32.217
Smith had a lease on the stadium out
there and, uh, I don't know how he

01:39:32.250 --> 01:39:36.476
got that or why he got it, but the
stadium was pretty poor shape and

01:39:36.509 --> 01:39:39.586
really couldn't see very many people.
It wasn't comfortable. So we had a

01:39:39.619 --> 01:39:45.067
long way to go. Well, the Seattle
Pilots came, they only lasted one year

01:39:45.100 --> 01:39:49.656
and it was an expansion team and just
didn't make a guess. And it turned

01:39:49.689 --> 01:39:52.487
in into the

01:39:52.520 --> 01:39:58.416
Seattle Seahawks. Maybe. I ca I can't
remember who came. Marlins. Marlins

01:39:58.449 --> 01:40:02.836
, I believe it was the Marlins. But
anyway, we got started for base to be

01:40:02.869 --> 01:40:08.265
a spring training baseball supporter
like the Ho HO C and Mesa. And, um,

01:40:08.298 --> 01:40:11.237
and we struggled in the first year we
got teams that weren't very well

01:40:11.270 --> 01:40:15.696
known were very lucrative. And then
when they started talking about the

01:40:15.729 --> 01:40:20.586
Fiesta Bowl, we uh took upon ourselves
to get involved and help in every

01:40:20.619 --> 01:40:23.326
way that we could. And we made some
trips with them and talking to people

01:40:23.359 --> 01:40:28.946
. I didn't make many of the trips, but
I was involved with them. And uh so

01:40:28.979 --> 01:40:33.446
that when they finally settled on the
festival, then it took us two or

01:40:33.479 --> 01:40:37.836
three bowl games before we offered to
be the official host for the

01:40:37.869 --> 01:40:42.737
festival. And what that meant is when
the two teams were chosen, we would

01:40:42.770 --> 01:40:48.906
fly a group of diablos back to their
university and have uh welcoming

01:40:48.939 --> 01:40:52.906
parties, you might say, and goodwill
gestures. And uh basically, we taught

01:40:52.939 --> 01:40:57.737
them all how to drink margaritas. But
uh we introduced them to that and,

01:40:57.770 --> 01:41:01.885
and social activities and when they
came in and they all always brought a

01:41:01.918 --> 01:41:05.996
lot of their people stayed in the
local hotels and we'd have a bar in

01:41:06.029 --> 01:41:11.656
there that had plenty of margaritas.
So we uh did our share of uh of

01:41:11.689 --> 01:41:15.027
propaganda. You might say that way,
but it turned out to be a very good

01:41:15.060 --> 01:41:18.256
active activity for us. And when they
came to town, of course, we had

01:41:18.289 --> 01:41:22.777
parties of all kinds. And so we help
the tourist industry, I'm sure by

01:41:22.810 --> 01:41:28.726
helping um enlarge the interest in
the, in the festival activities. And we

01:41:28.759 --> 01:41:34.055
talked earlier about uh your
impression of a lot of the presidents of A SU

01:41:34.088 --> 01:41:39.467
and how they contributed to the
development of a SU. Uh right before you

01:41:39.500 --> 01:41:46.317
went back on the border regions, as I
recall, uh Lady Co was hired. And so

01:41:46.350 --> 01:41:51.607
, um during most of that time, I'm
glad he was there. You were on the

01:41:51.640 --> 01:41:55.376
border regions. Could you talk about
your impressions and his

01:41:55.409 --> 01:42:01.296
contributions to uh A U? Well, uh
generally, I thought that every

01:42:01.329 --> 01:42:05.717
president that I observed was an
improvement over the other and what they

01:42:05.750 --> 01:42:09.156
were doing, the platform had been
built for them here. So they took

01:42:09.189 --> 01:42:13.175
another level and some of them were
able to take it two and three levels.

01:42:13.208 --> 01:42:16.376
And I think your current president has
done that. I think he's taken up

01:42:16.409 --> 01:42:21.156
several levels. Every one of them was
an improvement because they were new

01:42:21.189 --> 01:42:27.305
and had different ideas of how to
enlarge the educational activity for the

01:42:27.338 --> 01:42:31.717
university and the things to do to do
that. And uh their relationship with

01:42:31.750 --> 01:42:35.467
the legislature, of course, is
extremely important. And I'll have to give

01:42:35.500 --> 01:42:39.717
Lady Ker a on that because he was very
capable of appearing before the

01:42:39.750 --> 01:42:44.135
legislative bodies and expressing our
need and tell them why we need it

01:42:44.168 --> 01:42:49.015
and so forth. So Lady was, he probably
took it up a couple of steps very

01:42:49.048 --> 01:42:53.576
easily. Uh As you know, he's an
excellent speaker, he can speak as long as

01:42:53.609 --> 01:42:57.366
you want to without notes. And that's
a talent as can our current

01:42:57.399 --> 01:43:02.336
president, he can do the same thing.
But every one of them I think, added

01:43:02.369 --> 01:43:06.817
to the stature and the growth of the
university in one way or another and

01:43:06.850 --> 01:43:10.196
each one of them inherited something
that was in work in progress as you

01:43:10.229 --> 01:43:13.397
well know that that couldn't be
otherwise. And there would be a stopping

01:43:13.430 --> 01:43:17.506
place and some would take a, more of
an interest in something that was

01:43:17.539 --> 01:43:22.996
going on. And I can't describe, I, I'm
not aware of, of where that might

01:43:23.029 --> 01:43:27.576
have happened, whether it was a Su
West or a Su East maybe. But there's

01:43:27.609 --> 01:43:31.586
probably, uh, some new presidents
didn't have the same interest in

01:43:31.619 --> 01:43:34.906
everything that has been going on, but
I couldn't really identify any of

01:43:34.939 --> 01:43:42.939
that. But overall, I think we've been
well led through the years

01:43:44.479 --> 01:43:50.635
and in a more general way, there are a
lot of people that contributed to

01:43:50.668 --> 01:43:55.885
the development of a su both inside
university and outside the university

01:43:55.918 --> 01:44:01.237
are there or anyone or a small group
of people that you think had the

01:44:01.270 --> 01:44:08.857
greatest impact on, uh, the
development of the su over the years. Well, I

01:44:08.890 --> 01:44:13.467
know what you say is true and, and
probably one of the largest

01:44:13.500 --> 01:44:18.425
measurements that you could give is
the financial help because uh they can

01:44:18.458 --> 01:44:22.626
talk all they want to. But when it
comes down to funding um, in large

01:44:22.659 --> 01:44:27.265
program or new program or facilities
or all that, it takes money and so

01:44:27.298 --> 01:44:30.885
they are big donors, obviously are the
ones that have helped in that

01:44:30.918 --> 01:44:35.187
respect, more than anyone else. They
put their money where their mouth was.

01:44:35.220 --> 01:44:39.826
There's a very wealthy family in North
Scottsdale who came out of the

01:44:39.859 --> 01:44:47.817
Midwest as a hardware store owner and
he and his sons, now his sons has

01:44:47.850 --> 01:44:53.286
been great, great contributors to,
especially his wife, her burger, her

01:44:53.319 --> 01:44:57.635
burger, her burger. Yes. The herb
burgers. That's an example of people

01:44:57.668 --> 01:45:01.305
that have given and given and given
and supported the university. And

01:45:01.338 --> 01:45:06.187
there are others probably as big or,
or near like them that are given

01:45:06.220 --> 01:45:10.357
sometimes almost anonymously because
they don't want the publicity at all.

01:45:10.390 --> 01:45:13.925
But without those. And that's the
reason I told Russ Nelson that uh

01:45:13.958 --> 01:45:16.706
there's a lot of people that, that
wanna give you a lot of money that's

01:45:16.739 --> 01:45:22.687
still also winning football team. And
I still think that is true.

01:45:22.720 --> 01:45:28.937
Well, of all your interactions with a
su your personal interactions with a

01:45:28.970 --> 01:45:35.277
su over all these years, is there,
what are the things that you sort of

01:45:35.310 --> 01:45:40.217
feel the greatest satisfaction about
participating in or helping that

01:45:40.250 --> 01:45:45.897
really help the university?

01:45:45.930 --> 01:45:53.027
A as we've talked, uh through this
interview, you've talked about a lot of

01:45:53.060 --> 01:45:59.567
personal lessons learned from your
experience that have been guidelines or

01:45:59.600 --> 01:46:06.976
inspirations uh for you. Uh would you,
would you have advice you would

01:46:07.009 --> 01:46:12.595
like to give to others albeit um
students or university people or just

01:46:12.628 --> 01:46:19.135
general community involvement, people,
you've been a major contributor to

01:46:19.168 --> 01:46:26.067
uh all kinds of community uh service
kinds of things. Well, the, the

01:46:26.100 --> 01:46:30.217
current discussion that's going on
with, with cost and, and we're talking

01:46:30.250 --> 01:46:35.385
about tuition and expanding the
university and all that. And I totally

01:46:35.418 --> 01:46:41.706
agree with what the current president
has said. We are a public

01:46:41.739 --> 01:46:46.737
institution and we cannot close our
doors to any of our, to the public

01:46:46.770 --> 01:46:50.015
that wants to come to this
institution. There's no way that we can close

01:46:50.048 --> 01:46:53.937
our doors to the next batch that wants
to get in. And so to do that, we

01:46:53.970 --> 01:46:58.095
have to have support financially and,
and every other kind of support. So

01:46:58.128 --> 01:47:00.937
I agree with that. Although I wish we
weren't the biggest university in

01:47:00.970 --> 01:47:05.765
the country. It has some of its
drawbacks. It has some asset value also,

01:47:05.798 --> 01:47:11.496
but uh funding it and of course, in
delivering quality education is more

01:47:11.529 --> 01:47:16.916
difficult in times like this and in
the numbers that we have now they're

01:47:16.949 --> 01:47:20.437
talking about another university being
started. But uh I don't think I

01:47:20.470 --> 01:47:24.015
would be in favor of that. I don't
think funding of it, public funding of

01:47:24.048 --> 01:47:29.055
it would be a valid consideration at
this time and maybe down the road

01:47:29.088 --> 01:47:36.305
could be but not now.

01:47:36.338 --> 01:47:40.976
Well, I guess I would look back at
people that I had a high respect for

01:47:41.009 --> 01:47:46.916
and of their talent and their
contribution and their advice. Um One of

01:47:46.949 --> 01:47:51.385
those would be Dwight Patterson. Uh,
Dwight, you know where his wife was a

01:47:51.418 --> 01:47:56.726
Dobson and, uh, seeing what they have
done for education and other things

01:47:56.759 --> 01:48:01.675
, for instance, they gave all the land
where Mesa Community College is

01:48:01.708 --> 01:48:06.796
free. They gave all the land where
Samaritan Health Services are in the

01:48:06.829 --> 01:48:11.086
east side. Now. It's, uh, what's the
other name for it? It's that banner

01:48:11.119 --> 01:48:15.217
Health. They gave the land for that.
In fact, I was at the staking of that

01:48:15.250 --> 01:48:21.696
uh hospital, but it was built. And um
politically,

01:48:21.729 --> 01:48:27.487
I wish we had some more people like
the Burton bars and the Stan Turley

01:48:27.520 --> 01:48:32.967
and people like that who have vision
and understand what we have to do to

01:48:33.000 --> 01:48:38.086
reach and accomplish that vision
instead of petty politics. I frankly

01:48:38.119 --> 01:48:42.967
think that right now we're the poorest
led that we have been in state

01:48:43.000 --> 01:48:48.666
government since we became a state.
And I hate to see that this is sort of

01:48:48.699 --> 01:48:52.906
my adopted state and I hate to see
that happen to us and I'm not sure

01:48:52.939 --> 01:48:56.366
what's gonna happen in the future.
There's so many balls in the air and I

01:48:56.399 --> 01:49:00.925
don't know where they're gonna come
down will be pluses or minuses. But

01:49:00.958 --> 01:49:07.246
people like Dwight uh was a, was a
good mentor for me. In fact, he uh he

01:49:07.279 --> 01:49:11.296
sponsored me into rotary and he
sponsored me on the Ser and Health Board.

01:49:11.329 --> 01:49:18.746
That's another thing that I served on
with a great deal of satisfaction

01:49:18.779 --> 01:49:25.487
in 1982. I guess it was, they were
asking me to come on the s on board and

01:49:25.520 --> 01:49:30.437
they had their CEO there was under
fire and, uh, I didn't like what he was

01:49:30.470 --> 01:49:35.616
doing at all. Can stand more.

01:49:35.649 --> 01:49:38.286
Is that his name? I don't remember. I
don't remember, but he was in

01:49:38.319 --> 01:49:42.756
trouble. Part of the board. He was,
he, he had bought a jet, paid for a

01:49:42.789 --> 01:49:46.706
jet and he was taking part of his
board members abroad to Europe and

01:49:46.739 --> 01:49:50.706
contacting big money people. And they
were planning on selling the

01:49:50.739 --> 01:49:58.095
Samaritan Hospital for I think, 600
million and then creating a, a

01:49:58.128 --> 01:50:03.996
charitable institution out of that.
And he would run it and they hadn't

01:50:04.029 --> 01:50:09.107
run that by the majority of the board
and all. And they were under a fight

01:50:09.140 --> 01:50:12.126
like that and they want me to come on
board. I said I want, I want nothing

01:50:12.159 --> 01:50:16.817
to do with it. Iii I can't get into
that sort of thing. I'm not keep well.

01:50:16.850 --> 01:50:20.595
They did let him go and they hired the
second man to run the university.

01:50:20.628 --> 01:50:24.866
I mean, the hospital. And so I went on
the board in, I think it went on in

01:50:24.899 --> 01:50:27.305
83.

01:50:27.338 --> 01:50:32.196
And the first thing you knew I was
chairman about three years later. And

01:50:32.229 --> 01:50:37.175
the reason for that is um the board
was still very divided over this guy.

01:50:37.208 --> 01:50:41.217
There was about 5050. Uh the board
still want to bring him back and 50

01:50:41.250 --> 01:50:45.446
didn't want want him better. And so
they elected me as chairman because I

01:50:45.479 --> 01:50:50.737
wasn't on either side. I was uh
Anderson Bystander. So I ended up as

01:50:50.770 --> 01:50:55.336
chairman for two years and uh it was a
great experience. I had a good CEO

01:50:55.369 --> 01:51:01.055
uh I wish I could remember names, but
he was an excellent one and uh did

01:51:01.088 --> 01:51:06.385
very well, but he left to go. He was
named the Outstanding Hospital

01:51:06.418 --> 01:51:11.206
Executive in America. And I went with
him back east where he received his

01:51:11.239 --> 01:51:16.156
award. And at that meeting was a bunch
of nuns who was running a hospital

01:51:16.189 --> 01:51:20.976
in California. And they liked what
they saw in him and bingo, they hired

01:51:21.009 --> 01:51:25.326
him away from us and he left and went
to California and my term was about

01:51:25.359 --> 01:51:28.036
up on the board anyway, about after a
couple of years. So I went off of

01:51:28.069 --> 01:51:34.626
that. But I uh from that CEO I learned
a great deal and another one was um

01:51:34.659 --> 01:51:37.217
Walter Benson.

01:51:37.250 --> 01:51:43.027
Uh Walter Mason came to Arizona in
1933 the same year, I think that uh uh

01:51:43.060 --> 01:51:47.456
of the president of A S UK. And I
think those two men during those years

01:51:47.489 --> 01:51:51.286
made the biggest contribution to the
growth of Arizona of anybody. Walter

01:51:51.319 --> 01:51:58.317
Benson banking and, and president uh
Brady Damage of what he did with a su

01:51:58.350 --> 01:52:02.027
through those years. And uh so I
looked at them and I read most of Walter

01:52:02.060 --> 01:52:06.336
Bm's books that he wrote about the
tough years over the Depression and

01:52:06.369 --> 01:52:09.397
what they had to do when I went to the
Valley Bank in Chandler. In that

01:52:09.430 --> 01:52:14.397
5253 I had some teachers as my clients
and I was talking to one of them

01:52:14.430 --> 01:52:18.036
one day and they said, I will never
leave the Valley National Bank. I said

01:52:18.069 --> 01:52:21.527
, no, why do you say that? He said,
well, during the height of the

01:52:21.560 --> 01:52:26.277
depression, uh they paid us in script
money. You might say the teachers

01:52:26.310 --> 01:52:31.067
just got uh warrants. I think we got,
couldn't cash it, nobody cash it.

01:52:31.100 --> 01:52:34.296
But it's a warrant. They could draft
on it. When, when we got the money

01:52:34.329 --> 01:52:38.317
back said Walter Benson cashed every
one of those. He told the banks, you

01:52:38.350 --> 01:52:41.437
take those warrants in and give the
people the money. He's the only bank

01:52:41.470 --> 01:52:44.607
that did that. So they said we'll
never leave here. So a banker that will

01:52:44.640 --> 01:52:47.946
do that sort of thing in bad times for
the people like that is, is a great

01:52:47.979 --> 01:52:51.845
guy. Now, I worked for his son when I
was at the bank of Douglas. His son

01:52:51.878 --> 01:52:55.857
was over there as president of the
Bank of Douglas and he was a different

01:52:55.890 --> 01:53:00.166
sort of person entirely. He was a good
guy, a good banker but not the warm

01:53:00.199 --> 01:53:04.416
person that Walter M was. So I look at
people and not necessarily I was

01:53:04.449 --> 01:53:08.647
close to them, but they were
inspirations to me that were leaders of our

01:53:08.680 --> 01:53:14.687
state that did have got a lot of good
things. Well, Rudy, you're currently

01:53:14.720 --> 01:53:22.720
about 87 and, um, you certainly
retired from your insurance business, but

01:53:23.708 --> 01:53:28.726
most people would not look at you as
retired. Can you just mention some of

01:53:28.759 --> 01:53:36.175
the activities that you're still
involved in?

01:53:36.208 --> 01:53:39.786
Well, I kind of scribbled some down
here. I'm still on the research bar

01:53:39.819 --> 01:53:43.027
board as you know, and I'm on the
Carson golf course board. I was a

01:53:43.060 --> 01:53:47.635
charter member of that and, um, I'm
still a Sun Angels. I was chairman of

01:53:47.668 --> 01:53:52.226
them for two years and after that,
they make you an honorary member. So

01:53:52.259 --> 01:53:55.967
I'm still an honorary member, but I
don't have any duties to perform for

01:53:56.000 --> 01:54:02.996
the Sun Angels

01:54:03.029 --> 01:54:07.586
and the Sun Angel Endowment. Uh, I
just went off that board last year, but

01:54:07.619 --> 01:54:10.607
we took some of the money. We, we
created endowment out of some of the, uh

01:54:10.640 --> 01:54:15.876
, regular board members. And, uh, we
raised money for the purpose of which

01:54:15.909 --> 01:54:22.487
was to pay the fifth year, uh, cost or
athletic student who had used up

01:54:22.520 --> 01:54:26.515
his eligibility but hadn't graduated
and we would give them one more

01:54:26.548 --> 01:54:31.406
year's tuition. And we started doing
that in the, in the mid eighties. And

01:54:31.439 --> 01:54:35.496
so we set aside a lot of our money,
several million dollars to do that.

01:54:35.529 --> 01:54:39.326
And, um, we turned over to the A L A
department and they then would fund

01:54:39.359 --> 01:54:43.086
the, uh, the students for one more
year with things tight, like they are

01:54:43.119 --> 01:54:47.717
right now. We got this, this fund up
to $12 million. And it was just about

01:54:47.750 --> 01:54:51.381
right for the earnings on it to fund
the, the scholarships that we were

01:54:51.414 --> 01:54:54.510
funding. And so we were very
comfortable now. We don't have to go out and

01:54:54.543 --> 01:54:58.821
beg for more money. We, we think we
can grow this and do this well, with

01:54:58.854 --> 01:55:01.461
the hard times that have come along
here the last few years, they were

01:55:01.494 --> 01:55:06.140
having to reach out and get every
solid penny that they can possibly get.

01:55:06.173 --> 01:55:10.701
So they came to us and wanted us to
move that into the athletic department

01:55:10.734 --> 01:55:16.256
like they did the suns and we fought
it and we fought it and we finally

01:55:16.289 --> 01:55:19.746
won. But then they came back to us
and, uh, said they wanted to borrow to

01:55:19.779 --> 01:55:24.116
borrow the money, a refrigerated
balloon so the boys could practice in

01:55:24.149 --> 01:55:29.107
coolness and we were opposed to that.
We said we want this for

01:55:29.140 --> 01:55:34.095
scholarships, not for enhancing the
football players. And I talked to them

01:55:34.128 --> 01:55:37.217
about it. I said, you know, we beat
Oregon and Washington because they

01:55:37.250 --> 01:55:40.946
come down here in September and they
can't play in the heat so we can beat

01:55:40.979 --> 01:55:44.336
them. Now, you're gonna have our boys
walk out of a refrigerated balloon

01:55:44.369 --> 01:55:47.156
and go out into the heat. They're
gonna be just like the guys from

01:55:47.189 --> 01:55:51.095
Washington. I said, doesn't make
sense. Well, we finally ended up of

01:55:51.128 --> 01:55:54.836
loaning them ha loaning them half the
money and, uh, I don't think it'll

01:55:54.869 --> 01:55:58.876
ever be a penny of what we paid. We
loan them $6 million to go into their

01:55:58.909 --> 01:56:02.885
programs. And, uh, we're not sure now
if we're gonna have enough without

01:56:02.918 --> 01:56:08.256
dipping into the purpose of this for,
to fund the scholarships that we

01:56:08.289 --> 01:56:14.515
want, we have an investor. We have AAA
qualified licensed investor and of

01:56:14.548 --> 01:56:20.237
course, they want to move it into the,
the foundation too, a foundation

01:56:20.270 --> 01:56:24.027
but they, they charge a pretty hefty
fee to do that. But I see the day

01:56:24.060 --> 01:56:27.567
when the, the president will terminate
us and just say guys, we don't need

01:56:27.600 --> 01:56:32.126
you anymore. God, of course, things
change. And I just have to admit that

01:56:32.159 --> 01:56:35.357
you can't do it like you used to do it
whether you want to or not when I

01:56:35.390 --> 01:56:40.107
became a city council, when I was
pretty green and I promised myself now

01:56:40.140 --> 01:56:46.666
there's two sides of every issue and
I'm going to listen to ever sign and

01:56:46.699 --> 01:56:51.656
then I'm gonna make a come to a
conclusion and every item I vote on. I'm

01:56:51.689 --> 01:56:55.506
going to say, is this in the best
interest of this city or this university

01:56:55.539 --> 01:57:00.046
? Is it? Well, show you how naive I
was there aren't, we were seven people

01:57:00.079 --> 01:57:03.746
in the council. There weren't two
sides, there were seven sides. Everybody

01:57:03.779 --> 01:57:06.817
has a different idea of like Congress,
you go to Congress, you can't even

01:57:06.850 --> 01:57:10.496
sort out the sides. But there, there's
one kind of on the extreme this way

01:57:10.529 --> 01:57:13.467
and kind of that way. So you can kind
of sort it out. But I promise to

01:57:13.500 --> 01:57:18.876
listen to every argument on that
issue. And then as we vote just before I

01:57:18.909 --> 01:57:23.845
vote I say, is this in the best
interest? Yes or no, of this institution,

01:57:23.878 --> 01:57:27.717
I've had to work hard to do that
because with my education, unlike these

01:57:27.750 --> 01:57:33.175
lawyers that know what's going on
before it happens, I'm not that way. And

01:57:33.208 --> 01:57:37.467
I've, I've read my agendas like that.
I've gone down and read every single

01:57:37.500 --> 01:57:41.476
line on them and sometime I go back
and study them some more to get myself

01:57:41.509 --> 01:57:46.237
up to speed so I can make a, a
sensible contribution to the discussion.

01:57:46.270 --> 01:57:49.357
Well, you know, I look at it this way
too. I, I've done all of these

01:57:49.390 --> 01:57:53.555
things, but I think I'm just about
even with what I've gotten, I'm just uh

01:57:53.588 --> 01:57:59.086
very happy to be a part of the A su
family, so to speak. Thank you very

01:57:59.119 --> 01:58:03.487
much. And I'd like to thank you on
behalf of the university for all of

01:58:03.520 --> 01:58:08.296
your contributions over all these
years to, to the betterment and

01:58:08.329 --> 01:58:12.076
development of, of the whole
university as well as the whole university

01:58:12.109 --> 01:58:14.729
system in Arizona.