WEBVTT 00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:06.000 Today is April 29th, 2009. And, uh, we're, uh, doing, uh, another 00:00:09.390 --> 00:00:12.826 interview through the Living History video project, uh, sponsored by the A 00:00:12.859 --> 00:00:17.436 su Retirees Association. Uh, my name is Elmer Gooding. And, uh, it's my 00:00:17.469 --> 00:00:21.285 honor and privilege to interview, uh, Professor Emeritus Lou Weschler 00:00:21.318 --> 00:00:27.157 today. And so as a beginning, good to see you. My pleasure as we begin, uh 00:00:27.190 --> 00:00:30.567 , Lou, uh, maybe we'll start way back at the beginning and maybe tell us a 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:34.156 little bit about, uh, yourself and your early life and, uh, up through 00:00:34.189 --> 00:00:40.347 your education and, uh, sure. And then we'll go from there. Ok. Um, it's 00:00:40.380 --> 00:00:43.315 really, it's a little hard sometimes to know exactly when to start. I 00:00:43.348 --> 00:00:49.726 suppose the most important thing you need to know is that I was about 11 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:53.457 or 12 until I was in my twenties. I was sure I was going to be a, a 00:00:53.490 --> 00:00:59.135 practicing artist and when I started back to college in the 19 fifties, uh 00:00:59.168 --> 00:01:04.536 , Joan, my spouse and I were sure that I would become an art major and I 00:01:04.569 --> 00:01:07.186 would have to be a high school art teacher or a junior college arts 00:01:07.219 --> 00:01:12.805 teacher. Well, that didn't happen. Um I met an uh an advisor and he made 00:01:12.838 --> 00:01:16.555 me so angry that I decided on a spot that I would find something else to 00:01:16.588 --> 00:01:21.477 do with my life and not be an artist. And that's how I became a social 00:01:21.510 --> 00:01:26.456 scientist. And that's the deep background there. I got a degree in science 00:01:26.489 --> 00:01:30.477 and art at Harvard College and Technical Community College in Los Angeles. 00:01:30.510 --> 00:01:35.546 In 1953 I worked for a year or two. I was in the army during the Korean 00:01:35.579 --> 00:01:41.665 War. But fortunately for me, I was in Alaska, not Korea, I learned to ski 00:01:41.698 --> 00:01:46.546 uh and did a lot of painting. And when I got out of the army, I was gonna 00:01:46.579 --> 00:01:52.236 go to California State College at Los Angeles one day and the smog 00:01:52.269 --> 00:01:56.477 convinced me of the error of my way. I immediately went to Long Beach 00:01:56.510 --> 00:02:00.885 State which is on the ocean. It doesn't have as much smog and I went to 00:02:00.918 --> 00:02:06.355 two years there. Uh Because of faculty connections at Long Beach State, I 00:02:06.388 --> 00:02:12.055 ended up in graduate college getting a master's degree first in, in uh 00:02:12.088 --> 00:02:17.967 political philosophy and a phd. And what we would now call public economy 00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:22.286 or our political economy. It was combined political science, economics 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:26.305 degree. Although at that time, you couldn't actually do that at UCL A, you 00:02:26.338 --> 00:02:30.805 had to take one or the other and then you work around. So II, I finally 00:02:30.838 --> 00:02:36.696 got my phd in 64 Before I came to a SU I was on the faculty at the 00:02:36.729 --> 00:02:42.835 University of California Davis from 1964 to 1970. For one year, I was on 00:02:42.868 --> 00:02:46.827 the faculty at the University of Washington where I had a joint 00:02:46.860 --> 00:02:54.416 appointment in Fisheries Planning and Political Science. Uh And then I 00:02:54.449 --> 00:03:00.457 came to us c for a decade was, was doing mostly research in coastal zone 00:03:00.490 --> 00:03:05.005 management and natural resources. In 1980 I got the phone call. I 00:03:05.038 --> 00:03:10.805 mentioned that from page and came to a SU in 1980 to stay 10 years. And 00:03:10.838 --> 00:03:14.036 here I am ever since. 00:03:14.069 --> 00:03:19.077 Tell us a little bit about your experience that uh you came here uh to uh 00:03:19.110 --> 00:03:23.886 run the doctoral program. Yeah, the, the, the A SU did a very interesting 00:03:23.919 --> 00:03:29.305 thing uh that created the College of Public Programs. And to this day, I 00:03:29.338 --> 00:03:34.936 don't really understand why I call it. The college of residuals that is, 00:03:34.969 --> 00:03:38.916 there were a lot of things around campus and Paige Mulholland was provost 00:03:38.949 --> 00:03:42.305 and then put them all together. They were sort of step Children wherever 00:03:42.338 --> 00:03:46.077 they were. And he put them together and page calls and said, we started 00:03:46.110 --> 00:03:52.005 this new college, the college of Public uh program and your name has been 00:03:52.038 --> 00:03:56.356 uh nominated as a, as a possible dean. And I say, you can take my name off 00:03:56.389 --> 00:04:01.707 the list and he said, oh why? And I said I had been dean and associate 00:04:01.740 --> 00:04:06.495 dean at us c for too many years and I just turned down a job at another 00:04:06.528 --> 00:04:11.335 university not to be a dean. And I wasn't looking for a job as dean. And 00:04:11.368 --> 00:04:15.495 he said, oh, ok. And we chat a little bit what he was trying to do in the 00:04:15.528 --> 00:04:20.046 college. And I said to him, I can't see that the programs, anything have 00:04:20.079 --> 00:04:25.666 anything in common, but it works fine. It's gonna work about a month later 00:04:25.699 --> 00:04:29.606 , I get another phone call from Paige Mulholland. And he said, I think I 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:35.805 was talking to you about the wrong job probably. So he says, as part as 00:04:35.838 --> 00:04:40.096 part of this reorganization of the college, the acting dean that Frank 00:04:40.129 --> 00:04:45.526 Sancton at that time had just gotten information from the board of regions 00:04:45.559 --> 00:04:50.916 that the new doctor program in public administration had been approved and 00:04:50.949 --> 00:04:54.627 the same person nominated you as a possible dean, which happened to be 00:04:54.660 --> 00:05:00.377 Dicker revs. I said I would really be a good director for the D program. 00:05:00.410 --> 00:05:03.437 And uh he said that's what I want to talk to you about. And I said, well, 00:05:03.470 --> 00:05:08.245 that sounds more interesting. And then later that spring, I met a number 00:05:08.278 --> 00:05:13.567 of members of the faculty and 00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:17.947 the dean of the graduate college Wolf in San Francisco and so forth. And 00:05:17.980 --> 00:05:21.036 the rest is history. So that's how, that's a whole story. That's all gonna 00:05:21.069 --> 00:05:24.866 story. Now you can't, well, you can do that under the current president, 00:05:24.899 --> 00:05:28.276 but in the next 20 years when I came here you couldn't do that anymore. I 00:05:28.309 --> 00:05:32.257 mean, the provost couldn't call someone and essentially offer them a job 00:05:32.290 --> 00:05:36.205 without going through the whole. Right. So, that was, that, that was a 00:05:36.238 --> 00:05:42.166 major change in a su and probably, um, I and a couple others were the last 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:49.786 people who are hired that way. That way, 00:05:49.819 --> 00:05:52.986 this program actually didn't belong to the college. It belonged to the 00:05:53.019 --> 00:05:59.976 graduate college. And although it was the child of the school, 00:06:00.009 --> 00:06:06.106 it was actually owned by Charles Wolf. And the committee that administered 00:06:06.139 --> 00:06:10.455 for the 1st 10 years existence was actually a graduate college committee 00:06:10.488 --> 00:06:15.055 appointed by the graduate dean. And my role as director of that program 00:06:15.088 --> 00:06:18.276 was as a faculty member of the School of Public Affairs. But my 00:06:18.309 --> 00:06:24.086 administrative responsibilities was to a graduate. I see. So at the time 00:06:24.119 --> 00:06:27.145 you came, there weren't any students in the program and you started from 00:06:27.178 --> 00:06:31.947 ground zero, ground zero, the region had approved it the year before, but 00:06:31.980 --> 00:06:36.245 there wasn't even an acting director. And um so I was brought in 00:06:36.278 --> 00:06:40.926 specifically to do that and I did it, I think for six or seven years and 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:44.937 burned out doing it and they didn't do it after that. But it was nothing. 00:06:44.970 --> 00:06:48.676 There was nothing and more important from the School of Public Affairs 00:06:48.709 --> 00:06:52.245 and point of view, none of the sitting faculty had ever shared a 00:06:52.278 --> 00:06:56.817 dissertation, not very single and very distinguished faculty. Even at that 00:06:56.850 --> 00:07:01.546 time, Joe Care, a Carney were really well known nationally, but for 00:07:01.579 --> 00:07:05.156 whatever reasons in their university, they had never shared a doctors food 00:07:05.189 --> 00:07:10.437 , which that was one of the things I brought with me. By the time I showed 00:07:10.470 --> 00:07:17.286 up at a SU I had shared 40 dissertations. So so at the time you gave up 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:20.645 that responsibility say some seven years later about how many students 00:07:20.678 --> 00:07:25.286 were in the program. Now, in the doctor program, we try to keep it at zero 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:31.106 growth. And so the height was 20 the low was 10. So I would say 15, the 00:07:31.139 --> 00:07:36.426 average, the idea was to keep at zero growth. What may not be well known 00:07:36.459 --> 00:07:41.895 on the campus now because now a phd program, it was not designed to be a 00:07:41.928 --> 00:07:45.697 phd program because no Political Science Department in Arizona would 00:07:45.730 --> 00:07:50.217 support it being a phd or not possible to get a phd in public 00:07:50.250 --> 00:07:56.067 administration, Dean Wolf and, and uh Frank S was smart enough to go to 00:07:56.100 --> 00:08:00.846 the regions with a Doctor of Public administration, which is a lower level 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:05.606 in, in the in the hierarchy of university degree. A lower level degree is 00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:09.995 like the EDD and the Doctor of Business, Doctor Business. The exact same 00:08:10.028 --> 00:08:13.786 thing as a matter of fact, the first doctor of public administration ever 00:08:13.819 --> 00:08:19.106 given was given in 1949 by us C So it was a fairly recent degree edd is a 00:08:19.139 --> 00:08:23.106 very old degree. Doctor of Business is fairly new degree too from the 19 00:08:23.139 --> 00:08:27.116 fifties. So that gives you an idea that it's not, has never been a well 00:08:27.149 --> 00:08:31.697 established degree. Uh but they did it for political reasons, but it 00:08:31.730 --> 00:08:36.936 turned out to be a good idea because it was a degree that could in fact 00:08:36.969 --> 00:08:41.135 train people behind the members. But it also was designed in such a way 00:08:41.168 --> 00:08:47.106 that practitioners could go to school and get a degree. And in the, in the 00:08:47.139 --> 00:08:50.686 inter classes, when I was there, two thirds of the students were all who 00:08:50.719 --> 00:08:54.586 was practitioners and one third where people wanted to go into academia 00:08:54.619 --> 00:08:58.635 and that was by design. So 00:08:58.668 --> 00:09:02.547 well, the question Eleanor just asked me is how about being sort of rent a 00:09:02.580 --> 00:09:07.736 dean is the way I call the dean. Uh Remember that I had specific company 00:09:07.769 --> 00:09:12.287 issue to avoid being a dean. And so this was a big surprise to everybody. 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:20.320 Um The pros at that time was Jack Kenser. And uh first he got a problem in 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:25.226 this college in the College of Architecture and Environmental Design, the 00:09:25.259 --> 00:09:31.696 city dean was chosen to be the first uh provost of the new West campus. 00:09:31.729 --> 00:09:35.807 And he took the person who should have become acting Dean, Darrius with 00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:41.476 him. And so that Jerry mcsherry mcchord, so that left the void. And so 00:09:41.509 --> 00:09:45.946 Darrius and Jerry said, come over what come and have lunch with me? We 00:09:45.979 --> 00:09:49.395 have a job. You can't turn down the job I couldn't turn down was to be 00:09:49.428 --> 00:09:53.186 acting Associate dean of the College of Architecture and Environment 00:09:53.219 --> 00:09:58.446 Design. And as a favor to them, I did that. But in order to do that, I had 00:09:58.479 --> 00:10:01.917 to go back to my department and go back to the graduate dean and explain 00:10:01.950 --> 00:10:07.907 to them, I was now changing my role and I no longer could be director of 00:10:07.940 --> 00:10:11.057 the DP A program, which is ok because as I mentioned, I was pretty burned 00:10:11.090 --> 00:10:15.236 down and, but I was now gonna do something. I swore I would never do again 00:10:15.269 --> 00:10:18.807 in my life. And that is to be a higher level administrator at a college 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:22.066 level. But this was most interesting because you were called upon to be 00:10:22.099 --> 00:10:26.986 dean of the college in a, in a discipline that you really hadn't uh has a 00:10:27.019 --> 00:10:30.775 lot of background there. Is that correct? Uh None in architecture at all, 00:10:30.808 --> 00:10:35.196 but as a planner, but nobody over here knew that nobody over here knew I 00:10:35.229 --> 00:10:39.986 could actually draw or could use computers and I just played dumb. You 00:10:40.019 --> 00:10:43.816 know, I just let them show me how good they were with everything. Right. 00:10:43.849 --> 00:10:47.456 Uh And that's, that's the way you have to do it because you architects 00:10:47.489 --> 00:10:52.275 especially, I'm going to p myself on to college. They really think they 00:10:52.308 --> 00:10:56.467 run the world they really do and to try to tell them that you might be 00:10:56.500 --> 00:10:59.596 able to draw or paint as well. As they could, would not go over very well 00:10:59.629 --> 00:11:06.076 , trust me. So, I came over here first as an associate dean, the new, uh, 00:11:06.109 --> 00:11:11.645 acting dean decided to stay in Seattle until the weather cooled down here. 00:11:11.678 --> 00:11:14.616 He thought it would be cool by September. Of course, he was very shocked 00:11:14.649 --> 00:11:20.236 to find out it was still 100 degrees in September. And, uh, by the end of 00:11:20.269 --> 00:11:26.787 the fall semester he had enough of a su and head back home. Uh 00:11:26.820 --> 00:11:29.927 Parenthetically, I actually knew him when I was in the faculty, University 00:11:29.960 --> 00:11:33.336 of Washington for a year and he was the head of the urban design program 00:11:33.369 --> 00:11:38.047 there for many years. Well, because he decided to cut and run, as we say, 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:41.606 I ended up one morning being asked to be now not acting associate dean, 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:49.206 but acting dean. Um and that was a surprise to everybody and I had to tell 00:11:49.239 --> 00:11:52.226 everybody here that I wasn't really a spy for Jack Kinsinger that I was 00:11:52.259 --> 00:11:56.135 actually doing friends a favor. And it was incidental the fact that Jack 00:11:56.168 --> 00:12:00.157 Ken singer was a provost and so forth. I did do something that was 00:12:00.190 --> 00:12:03.875 interesting. Those of you who are in architecture, who read this or hear 00:12:03.908 --> 00:12:09.336 this and two of my colleagues in the room. No, that Russ Nelson was the 00:12:09.369 --> 00:12:14.635 patron saint of the arts and architecture. And without him, architecture 00:12:14.668 --> 00:12:19.005 wouldn't be what it is or had become and certainly fine arts wouldn't be 00:12:19.038 --> 00:12:23.547 what had become, I mean, without the Nelson Benina and, and Russ doing 00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:29.467 them. Um, I knew Russ Nelson when we were both graduate students at UCL A 00:12:29.500 --> 00:12:34.496 just briefly. Yeah. Uh which was an interesting connection. So, after I 00:12:34.529 --> 00:12:37.515 came over here, I said the problem and the problem with this place is that 00:12:37.548 --> 00:12:40.967 it's too isolated from the rest of the campus. I mean, it might have been 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:45.096 , it might as well have been in Missouri as well as was integrated to the 00:12:45.129 --> 00:12:49.496 campus life. So I went over to Russ and I sat down and I said I have my 00:12:49.529 --> 00:12:53.336 first weekly report for you and my first weekly report is they don't know 00:12:53.369 --> 00:12:58.996 , you are alive and without you, they're not alive, you need to come over 00:12:59.029 --> 00:13:03.775 here and say hello. So the next week secretary comes running into my 00:13:03.808 --> 00:13:07.246 office, which we're sitting in now and said, my God, the president in the 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:10.625 foe, what do I do? And I said, gee why don't you walk him him in and offer 00:13:10.658 --> 00:13:15.846 him a glass of orange juice? And they did. And so Russ made it a point 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:19.866 during that year that I was here to come over and visit once in a while, 00:13:19.899 --> 00:13:25.086 sometimes officially but frequently not officially just letting people 00:13:25.119 --> 00:13:30.775 know that he was here showing the flag and so forth. 00:13:30.808 --> 00:13:34.895 And, and as long as I'm telling stories about architecture, I decided that 00:13:34.928 --> 00:13:38.326 I would get to know every member of the faculty of the three units here. 00:13:38.359 --> 00:13:42.917 Personally, there was architecture, there was what passed for planning 00:13:42.950 --> 00:13:47.326 was reading landscape architecture. And then there was design which is 00:13:47.359 --> 00:13:52.047 industrial design and interiors. And so during my first month, I actually 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.927 went around to every office in the building was sitting in the new 00:13:55.960 --> 00:14:00.736 building had been built and mo everybody's door and sometimes I got very 00:14:00.769 --> 00:14:04.206 warm reception and sometimes I got the old foot blocking the door. What 00:14:04.239 --> 00:14:08.407 are you doing here? What is the dean spying on me for? I said, no, no, I 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:12.677 want to find out what you mean. So John uh uh Macintosh was sitting on 00:14:12.710 --> 00:14:16.427 this side. I can't remember. I started luncheons where faculty members and 00:14:16.460 --> 00:14:21.265 staff members s around and told people what they did, told about their 00:14:21.298 --> 00:14:25.836 work, told why they were here and you know, and so get them to know each 00:14:25.869 --> 00:14:29.936 other. And I tell them another story. Part of this college was what used 00:14:29.969 --> 00:14:34.787 to be part of agriculture when there were still agriculture and 00:14:34.820 --> 00:14:38.775 agriculture here. Home economics, for example, and there was a design 00:14:38.808 --> 00:14:43.907 program in home economics and some members of both architecture and design 00:14:43.940 --> 00:14:49.096 had been in home economics on the day that two of them retired. I had the 00:14:49.129 --> 00:14:52.047 pleasure of introducing them to each other to people who had been in the 00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:55.047 same building for 10 years. 00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:58.275 I want to tell the name but that was, that is literally true. And David 00:14:58.308 --> 00:15:01.456 was there and John was, I actually introduced the two retirees to each 00:15:01.489 --> 00:15:04.057 other and they had been in the same building, different floors, of course 00:15:04.090 --> 00:15:07.996 , for a decade and never actually had been formally introduced to and 00:15:08.029 --> 00:15:11.366 didn't even know each other at all. Amazing. So there's a lot of 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:17.356 insulation uh in the building and so forth, 00:15:17.389 --> 00:15:21.616 mentioned that Nick Henry was Dean at the time and you mentioned Russ 00:15:21.649 --> 00:15:26.807 Nelson was r president at that time. He came to you after that actually, 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:32.307 matter of fact, I served on the search committee 00:15:32.340 --> 00:15:40.340 was the chair of that committee was the the College Act Capacity. 00:15:40.690 --> 00:15:44.927 And then you went on to become uh acting dean in the college college Nick 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:50.226 , who, as I said, is a very ambitious person and not without cause, he's 00:15:50.259 --> 00:15:54.106 very talented. He decided to go on the market and become a university 00:15:54.139 --> 00:15:56.986 professor, which is, by the way, had always been a long, I mean university 00:15:57.019 --> 00:16:00.486 president, which had always been his long term goal. I remember him 00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:03.385 announcing that when he was acting assistant professor at the University 00:16:03.418 --> 00:16:08.066 of Georgia in a public meeting. And so he interviewed Ashley and he went 00:16:08.099 --> 00:16:13.106 to what used to be called Jordan Georgia Southern University 00:16:13.139 --> 00:16:19.885 and became the president. Uh at that point, Kinsinger appointed me the 00:16:19.918 --> 00:16:24.446 acting dean and I agreed to do it for one year. And then the search for 00:16:24.479 --> 00:16:29.005 his successor didn't work out. And so then I did it for another year and 00:16:29.038 --> 00:16:35.557 then the, the search did work out and Schneider became the dean stepped up. 00:16:35.590 --> 00:16:39.047 As I remember when Nick went to that institution, he worked on getting 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:42.496 the name changed to the institution. It's part of his ambition, I'm sure. 00:16:42.529 --> 00:16:46.275 Yes, he became a university, a college. Yeah. And they got doctoral 00:16:46.308 --> 00:16:51.316 programs and then, and, and then Nick, you know, I don't, uh, he finally 00:16:51.349 --> 00:16:54.246 retired there, uh, after a while he was still on the faculty there as 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:58.275 retired from the administration. But that was, that was his long term goal. 00:16:58.308 --> 00:17:01.076 I, I don't know if you know enough about it. Nick was actually a 00:17:01.109 --> 00:17:05.897 professional journalist before he was faculty member in academic. I didn't 00:17:05.930 --> 00:17:10.756 know that. And uh and he could write extremely well and could speak very 00:17:10.789 --> 00:17:17.196 well and he had a very aggressive, ambitious publication record and, but 00:17:17.229 --> 00:17:21.335 he really did like being an administrator, he really thrived and for 00:17:21.368 --> 00:17:25.355 whatever personal reasons, he, he had set the right tone for the College 00:17:25.388 --> 00:17:30.236 of Public Improvement. It, it did the things that public affairs you have 00:17:30.269 --> 00:17:35.085 to do and they did them well vic was very largely responsible for the fact 00:17:35.118 --> 00:17:41.784 that Walter Cronkite became the godfather of, of journalism program. Uh He 00:17:41.817 --> 00:17:46.176 was largely responsible for the fact that we got money from the Gold 00:17:46.209 --> 00:17:50.387 Waters and others in the School of Public Affairs. So Nick was very good 00:17:50.420 --> 00:17:54.706 in dealing with the external community. He was not a talented person as an 00:17:54.739 --> 00:17:58.887 internal administrator, but he was very talented uh as dealing with ex 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:02.805 external local communities. 00:18:02.838 --> 00:18:06.766 How would you compare the uh department from the time you came in 1980 00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:11.825 until the time you retired? What uh what kind of evolution occurred during 00:18:11.858 --> 00:18:18.565 that time period? Almost impossible to exaggerate. At the time I came, 00:18:18.598 --> 00:18:23.686 there were two senior faculty members and as I said, uh Nick was one of 00:18:23.719 --> 00:18:29.256 them and, and Al Carney was the other and neither of them had actually had 00:18:29.289 --> 00:18:35.295 experience of doing the things that senior faculty members had. Uh Joe 00:18:35.328 --> 00:18:38.967 Care who came in was the next one senior after me was an associate 00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:43.236 professor who had, who had actually chaired a dissertation at Texas Tech, 00:18:43.269 --> 00:18:48.575 but no one had the faculty was then allowed to hire four or five 00:18:48.608 --> 00:18:55.967 additional senior faculty members, Dennis Palumbo and Rina Kelly and Ron 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.967 Perry. I'm probably missing one or two were brought in specifically 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:05.367 because they could deal in doctor programs and they were more up to date 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:09.766 in their research curriculum than the people who were here. And they also 00:19:09.799 --> 00:19:13.656 had experience bringing research grants in which a big step forward. So 00:19:13.689 --> 00:19:17.696 that was a big change. The the the the school as as those of you who have 00:19:17.729 --> 00:19:22.426 been here a long time, actually started by three assistant professors, 00:19:22.459 --> 00:19:29.467 Political Science, Brett Brown and John Hall and Larry Mankin were the 00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:33.026 three kilometers of the school and they were all un tenured assistant 00:19:33.059 --> 00:19:38.565 professors. Uh So that's unusual. So the, the, the both the size of the 00:19:38.598 --> 00:19:44.035 faculty and the quality of the faculty radically increased in that decade. 00:19:44.068 --> 00:19:50.825 The other thing that changed is that the school became an essential part 00:19:50.858 --> 00:19:54.555 of the university rather than just the tag on to the university. And I 00:19:54.588 --> 00:19:58.795 think that uh was important and then because of Nick's direction in the 00:19:58.828 --> 00:20:03.285 college and because of a car, Nick's direction as director, it did become 00:20:03.318 --> 00:20:08.186 a really important connection with uh cities and county and state 00:20:08.219 --> 00:20:11.795 governments especially and some federal agency. But I would say municipal 00:20:11.828 --> 00:20:16.397 and county are really a lot of connections with, with those groups and, 00:20:16.430 --> 00:20:21.285 and made it possible for exchanges and internships and scholarships and 00:20:21.318 --> 00:20:24.637 things to be developed. That wouldn't have happened otherwise. Uh to give 00:20:24.670 --> 00:20:28.696 you an idea when I came here, not only was the campus shaking its 00:20:28.729 --> 00:20:32.746 accreditation, it had been given provisional accreditation by North 00:20:32.779 --> 00:20:38.496 Central. The five years before the School of Public Affairs was ranked 00:20:38.529 --> 00:20:44.815 48th out of 68 national programs. But by the time 1980 came, we were 00:20:44.848 --> 00:20:48.877 ranked in the top five. Did they have their own accreting? They do they 00:20:48.910 --> 00:20:54.597 have their own credit? It's called NASA and it was ranked 48th of 64th. 00:20:54.630 --> 00:21:00.006 And by 1990 it was ranked number five in the top 15. Now, it's about 00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:05.637 number 10 or 12 now. But that's still spectacular change. That is it. And 00:21:05.670 --> 00:21:10.226 that's mostly a tribute to the quality of faculty performance people 00:21:10.259 --> 00:21:14.347 outside don't know your students, especially a new doctoral program, they 00:21:14.380 --> 00:21:18.545 know your faculty. And so the quality of the junior faculty and the senior 00:21:18.578 --> 00:21:22.357 faculty changed so radically during that period of time and they became so 00:21:22.390 --> 00:21:26.256 active in national organization, the research and their public service 00:21:26.289 --> 00:21:29.897 that they became famous. I mean, this was, this was held up along with 00:21:29.930 --> 00:21:35.156 Syracuse and US C and Indiana as being at schools, other people should 00:21:35.189 --> 00:21:38.117 emulate. 00:21:38.150 --> 00:21:43.627 Speaking of students, you uh you said you chaired some 40 before you even 00:21:43.660 --> 00:21:47.976 came here that it meant some additional ones here. Are there any uh 00:21:48.009 --> 00:21:52.156 students that stand out in your mind that have gone on to uh various 00:21:52.189 --> 00:21:56.647 successes that uh Yeah, II I share it in Yeah, I I'm sure something to you. 00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:01.575 Um Chris Garcia who spend his entire academic career at the University of 00:22:01.608 --> 00:22:07.545 New Mexico was uh proposes was dean of his college and was acting 00:22:07.578 --> 00:22:12.795 president and ran his re uh research firm. And although I don't think his 00:22:12.828 --> 00:22:17.217 research record in publication was very robust. He was a great teacher and 00:22:17.250 --> 00:22:22.236 good in public service. I think he's one I would rec as well rounded dear 00:22:22.269 --> 00:22:28.117 as I mentioned before, probably among my most successful our students. He 00:22:28.150 --> 00:22:32.446 was Dean of Architecture, both the University of Mexico and the University 00:22:32.479 --> 00:22:37.387 of Arizona. Uh He did have a distinguished publishing record and he also 00:22:37.420 --> 00:22:42.516 was an outstanding teacher. Uh There are a couple Linda blessing. Do you 00:22:42.549 --> 00:22:46.897 know Linda? Blessing? Yes, the blessing did agree with me and the blessing 00:22:46.930 --> 00:22:51.016 is done very well for her. So, um Ann Marshall who is the assistant 00:22:51.049 --> 00:22:56.815 director of the, her museum is another uh Marty Vanco who used to be city 00:22:56.848 --> 00:23:04.607 manager of a mesa. Um a couple not so famous how Kendig that you've heard 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:08.835 of? He went, he left us c and went to Canberra University, the National 00:23:08.868 --> 00:23:12.575 University and became the head of what we would call the legislative 00:23:12.608 --> 00:23:17.956 analyst office here. And that's what he did for the state. So he's famous. 00:23:17.989 --> 00:23:21.035 And then there are a couple whose names I can't remember. One used to be 00:23:21.068 --> 00:23:26.967 the National Planning Director for Sao Paulo, the state and the city. But 00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:30.535 I can't remember his first name is Carlos, but I forget his last name. And 00:23:30.568 --> 00:23:34.936 then another one was the head of the secret police for the Shah of Iran. 00:23:34.969 --> 00:23:38.686 You should mention his name because if he has any relatives left, they can 00:23:38.719 --> 00:23:42.647 kill him. One. 00:23:42.680 --> 00:23:45.926 Now, some of your research interests were in the environmental area. This 00:23:45.959 --> 00:23:52.035 is probably before it really became a, a popular thing to uh uh to all the 00:23:52.068 --> 00:23:56.357 politicians and others at that time. Yeah, it was, it was. And, and that's 00:23:56.390 --> 00:23:59.516 the reason why Bruce Ba was interested in. According to the interim 00:23:59.549 --> 00:24:03.597 committee you mentioned before the legislation, I was the only member of 00:24:03.630 --> 00:24:07.156 the faculty in School of Public Affairs who actually did research in 00:24:07.189 --> 00:24:11.016 environment. There was another one who claimed he did jump Becker, but he 00:24:11.049 --> 00:24:14.986 really didn't do any research. And so I was a single person who did it. 00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:20.496 And when I came here, I shifted away from doing cost phone management 00:24:20.529 --> 00:24:25.717 because it's a little far uh to go down to rock and point to do research, 00:24:25.750 --> 00:24:30.476 although it's done. Um and I shifted back to what I started in which was 00:24:30.509 --> 00:24:35.045 water and water quality and air quality. And I, we have to tell you, I've 00:24:35.078 --> 00:24:39.055 done very little to improve the air quality of the basin. I think I made 00:24:39.088 --> 00:24:43.026 some contributions in my research and public service in improving the 00:24:43.059 --> 00:24:48.456 water quality of Arizona's implication. Implementation of the Clean Water 00:24:48.489 --> 00:24:52.347 Act has been very good. The implementation of the Clean Air Act has not 00:24:52.380 --> 00:24:54.887 been good 00:24:54.920 --> 00:24:59.545 back to the uh people that were at the college and students. Uh How does 00:24:59.578 --> 00:25:04.847 Frank Sack come into play in college? Yeah, Frank Zac. And uh those of you 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:10.357 don't know him. He's in this series, Frank Sack and retired as Lieutenant 00:25:10.390 --> 00:25:15.285 Colonel General, General General. And he had been the uh, uh auditor 00:25:15.318 --> 00:25:19.726 General I controller general of the US Army before he came here. He then 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:23.176 went to work for the state, for the sitting governor, went for the state. 00:25:23.209 --> 00:25:27.467 And then when he put his time in there, he showed up one day in the 00:25:27.500 --> 00:25:30.456 school of public affairs knocking at the door and saying he would like to 00:25:30.489 --> 00:25:35.347 get a master's degree in public administration, uh which was unusual 00:25:35.380 --> 00:25:38.166 because he didn't have a college degree. He had graduated from the war 00:25:38.199 --> 00:25:43.387 college while being very flexible. And Nick Henry admitted him and, and, 00:25:43.420 --> 00:25:49.236 and, and then Dean of graduate college admitted him. And so, um Franks 00:25:49.269 --> 00:25:54.805 became a senior faculty member, an administrator of the university, a 00:25:54.838 --> 00:25:58.706 master's student and an intern all on the same day. And he was one of the 00:25:58.739 --> 00:26:02.535 very few people that went directly to professor. That's his right. As I 00:26:02.568 --> 00:26:08.226 recall, he was always a professor and that all happened one day. So as I 00:26:08.259 --> 00:26:11.535 say, we don't do those things anymore, right? That, that doesn't happen. 00:26:11.568 --> 00:26:18.526 Uh Frank Sac and didn't know me from the side of the hill. Uh But when I 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:24.825 came here, I'm not exactly the slowest person on the boat. And I knew 00:26:24.858 --> 00:26:31.776 shortly after I came here that Paige Mahan and then shortly after that 00:26:31.809 --> 00:26:39.809 Ross Nelson, really slight and bikes. Yes, both of them. Uh Again, not 00:26:39.809 --> 00:26:43.256 being too slow. I said, OK, if he's an important person with the president 00:26:43.289 --> 00:26:45.406 and a provost, 00:26:45.439 --> 00:26:49.647 maybe I had to get to know him better. And so I did and although we're not 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:56.006 friends, he, I related to him if I had been in the military. Yeah, didn't 00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:58.676 have the same career he did. We both started out the same way. Do you know 00:26:58.709 --> 00:27:03.456 what Mustang means. I'll have to have you tell me, Mustang is a person who 00:27:03.489 --> 00:27:09.357 goes from being an enlisted man to an officer without going to an academy 00:27:09.390 --> 00:27:14.426 or being trained to do. It usually happens in a, in a combat situation. 00:27:14.459 --> 00:27:18.206 Frank went from corporal to lieutenant because everybody else is wiped 00:27:18.239 --> 00:27:23.065 out in his company. I went from 00:27:23.098 --> 00:27:28.045 master sergeant to captain in the reserve because they didn't have anybody 00:27:28.078 --> 00:27:33.776 else to do the job that uh but we both, we both became out of the service 00:27:33.809 --> 00:27:39.217 and that's as far as I went, but he became general of the army. 00:27:39.250 --> 00:27:42.637 Uh You also were a loan executive to the city of Phoenix. Tell me about 00:27:42.670 --> 00:27:47.676 that experience. That's a mixed experience. Um When I took the job, I was 00:27:47.709 --> 00:27:53.526 actually recruited by the university attorney at that time to apply for 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:58.647 the job because he didn't like the people who had applied. They weren't 00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:03.206 seeing you nothing. It's why apply. And because I had done a similar job 00:28:03.239 --> 00:28:07.486 with Tom Bradley when he was mayor of Los Angeles, despite the fact that I 00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:10.916 actually wasn't living in the city of Los Angeles. Of course, I never 00:28:10.949 --> 00:28:17.035 lived in the city of Phoenix either. Uh That was in my favor. So I went to 00:28:17.068 --> 00:28:20.847 interview for the job. Well, the day I interviewed for the job, Terry 00:28:20.880 --> 00:28:25.436 Goddard was still mayor of Phoenix and I interviewed for a job sitting in 00:28:25.469 --> 00:28:30.825 the cabinet with the mayor and I accepted it. By the time I showed up, 00:28:30.858 --> 00:28:36.795 Terry God was running for Governor Johnson was the mayor and had no desire 00:28:36.828 --> 00:28:41.305 of having an old college professor in his cabinet, the new city manager 00:28:41.338 --> 00:28:44.597 who's not still the city manager, Frank Fairbank didn't want anything to 00:28:44.630 --> 00:28:49.916 do with the loan executive from a su and so I got shuttled off on the 00:28:49.949 --> 00:28:53.835 corner with something called a Futures Forum. Now, for those of you who 00:28:53.868 --> 00:28:58.986 don't know or don't care Futures Forum was an attempt by Terry Goddard, by 00:28:59.019 --> 00:29:03.526 Ron England, by the planning director whose name I forget maybe John, you 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:08.085 remember who the planning director was in Phoenix then, 00:29:08.118 --> 00:29:12.406 OK, when you do anyway, the three of them except the Futures Forum to 00:29:12.439 --> 00:29:20.439 create a 25 year social political biophysical map design for the city of 00:29:21.219 --> 00:29:24.825 Phoenix and doing it as a kind of community as a community-based project 00:29:24.858 --> 00:29:29.347 by dividing the city up into units that are called villages now and then 00:29:29.380 --> 00:29:34.906 planning from a, a citizens base and a participatory base. Neither the 00:29:34.939 --> 00:29:41.535 governor nor the city mayor Johnson or uh Frankfurt Bank had any desire to 00:29:41.568 --> 00:29:47.406 have anybody doing that in the city of Phoenix. And so Matt Decker and I, 00:29:47.439 --> 00:29:53.217 a couple of interns and the ex budget director for the city of Phoenix 00:29:53.250 --> 00:29:58.276 would put together an office about this size for the five of us and given 00:29:58.309 --> 00:30:01.805 the task of running that program. So I said for the first six months, I 00:30:01.838 --> 00:30:07.726 was the highest paid public affairs clerk in the city of Phoenix and 00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:12.936 carried my university salary with me, Ron. Ron Short. Yes, those, the 00:30:12.969 --> 00:30:17.496 three of them actually invented this. Um, the second six months was more 00:30:17.529 --> 00:30:25.467 interesting because Fairbanks caught the strategic planning virus and 00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:29.906 actually begin to believe in it. Not annoying for one minute what it 00:30:29.939 --> 00:30:34.406 entail or what it was. And that same unit then was given the design to set 00:30:34.439 --> 00:30:39.166 up a strategic planning process for the city of Phoenix, which we did 00:30:39.199 --> 00:30:44.206 nicely. And that then got us all working with all the department heads and 00:30:44.239 --> 00:30:47.206 the financial officers and so forth because you can't do strategic 00:30:47.239 --> 00:30:52.097 planning. This involves budgeting and personnel and stuff like that. Now, 00:30:52.130 --> 00:30:55.717 if we go back, that's the same time that the same virus infected this 00:30:55.750 --> 00:31:00.575 university through Russ Nelson's office. So it is happening at the same 00:31:00.608 --> 00:31:05.387 time. It's probably because the same literature is being read by everybody. 00:31:05.420 --> 00:31:09.766 It never did really work very well in, in Phoenix, but it allowed Phoenix 00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:13.236 to be called the best governed city in the United States and won a 00:31:13.269 --> 00:31:18.926 national war from pre two prestigious organization, one headed by the Bank 00:31:18.959 --> 00:31:22.597 of America, one headed by the, the International City Management 00:31:22.630 --> 00:31:26.406 Association as the best governance. 00:31:26.439 --> 00:31:31.196 So you made a contribution even though they started out as a clerk. Yeah, 00:31:31.229 --> 00:31:36.476 II I, you know, you can imagine that being who I am. I wasn't really happy 00:31:36.509 --> 00:31:39.717 being stuck in a closet when I thought I was gonna be sitting at the table 00:31:39.750 --> 00:31:43.746 with the mayor. I mean, that was, that was shocking. Uh to be honest with 00:31:43.779 --> 00:31:48.887 you, I made such an argument with Frank about in private that from then on. 00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:55.055 And we had 11 other loan executives for 10 years after they all got 00:31:55.088 --> 00:31:58.406 better positions. And I, I pride myself on that, but I said, I'm not gonna 00:31:58.439 --> 00:32:02.107 recommend anybody coming over here if you do to them. What you did to me? 00:32:02.140 --> 00:32:04.835 He said, well, I got you good parking space now. Yeah, you do better than 00:32:04.868 --> 00:32:09.016 that. The president can do that. That didn't quite, that didn't quite do 00:32:09.049 --> 00:32:12.226 everything I had in mind for now. And frankly, he said to me, if he'd 00:32:12.259 --> 00:32:15.785 known me well, then he probably would have done that. But he didn't know 00:32:15.818 --> 00:32:20.035 me from more, honey. And he was a little frightened and his ideas tame the 00:32:20.068 --> 00:32:24.305 futures for him. Get those people out of my office. Right. And we did. But 00:32:24.338 --> 00:32:28.117 the more important thing is that it really did change the way that 00:32:28.150 --> 00:32:32.486 financial resources and human resources were distributed in city fin now, 00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:36.785 those of you who have forgotten what 1980 were lying. This was the Reagan 00:32:36.818 --> 00:32:40.996 recession. And the first thing Frank had to do is cut the city budget by 00:32:41.029 --> 00:32:47.147 13% and not paled by. But what's happening now. But a 1513 to 14% hit it, 00:32:47.180 --> 00:32:51.637 also hit this place too at the same time. That's a terrible smash. It was 00:32:51.670 --> 00:32:56.756 terrible. So, that's what Frank walked into a really bad situation. He 00:32:56.789 --> 00:32:59.696 couldn't hire anybody. I mean, it was impossible to hire anyone as it is 00:32:59.729 --> 00:33:04.387 now. So he had, he had his plate full. But, uh, and he did turn, he did 00:33:04.420 --> 00:33:07.295 turn around and, and the g planning stuff worked for, you know, three or 00:33:07.328 --> 00:33:11.387 four years, which is not bad. And a lot of younger members of the 00:33:11.420 --> 00:33:15.476 department learned how to do that, learn how to do numerically based 00:33:15.509 --> 00:33:20.196 assessment, actually using real data and they learn how to argue over time 00:33:20.229 --> 00:33:24.496 instead of just one fiscal year, they stretch the budget planning out to 00:33:24.529 --> 00:33:28.467 more or less mirror the state and the federal planning into a five or six 00:33:28.500 --> 00:33:32.847 year planning process uh which is not bad that that's a big jump forward 00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:35.906 for a municipality. 00:33:35.939 --> 00:33:39.897 You mentioned the uh in the 19 eighties and all the, the budget cuts and 00:33:39.930 --> 00:33:44.936 things like that and the reverts that we had uh how, how did that all play 00:33:44.969 --> 00:33:48.097 out in some of the challenges you had as an acting being in two different 00:33:48.130 --> 00:33:53.357 colleges here? It was, it really brought tears in people's eyes. Now, John 00:33:53.390 --> 00:33:56.706 and David, remember I went around taking phones out of people's offices 00:33:56.739 --> 00:33:59.676 when I couldn't control the long dis the phone call and said they had to 00:33:59.709 --> 00:34:02.666 come into my office to make long dis a phone call. I mean, I literally did 00:34:02.699 --> 00:34:07.117 that. I, I got this list from the administrative assistant and I found out 00:34:07.150 --> 00:34:09.986 that people are spending all the long-distance phone money and I went 00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:13.086 around, took the, uh on the weekend, took the phone to her office and 00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:17.436 stacked them up along this wall and I put a phone right outside my office. 00:34:17.469 --> 00:34:20.604 Say you wanna make a long dis phone call, that's where you do it. Now, 00:34:20.637 --> 00:34:25.084 what what other budget impacts did it have? Well, we cut down, we cut down 00:34:25.117 --> 00:34:30.325 uh duplication that xerox and stuff like that. We didn't hire anybody for 00:34:30.358 --> 00:34:34.476 a while. I mean, architecture was not allowed to fill unfilled senior 00:34:34.509 --> 00:34:38.655 positions, but I did something I thought was very smart and, and to the 00:34:38.688 --> 00:34:43.015 benefit of John sitting behind the camera, John was a part time faculty 00:34:43.048 --> 00:34:48.526 member at that time and I turned him into a full time staff member. The 00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:52.155 way I did that is I took the only line that I could fill, which was an 00:34:52.188 --> 00:34:55.717 assistant professorship in architecture and converted it against 00:34:55.750 --> 00:34:59.396 everybody's objection to a staff position, which is almost the reverse of 00:34:59.429 --> 00:35:03.066 what everybody else is. Right? And I hired John full time and I said, John 00:35:03.099 --> 00:35:08.606 , your job is to computerize this college as fast as you can. And I stole 00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:12.115 every dime I quote from everywhere including huge amounts of money from 00:35:12.148 --> 00:35:16.646 the computer and fusion funds. The Jack I got more than this college fair 00:35:16.679 --> 00:35:22.095 share that. And John and I turned this place in from mildly computer 00:35:22.128 --> 00:35:26.267 literate to total computer literacy in two years. Even after, like, this 00:35:26.300 --> 00:35:28.856 was a time when we were trying to get a computer on everybody's desk. 00:35:28.889 --> 00:35:32.695 That's right. And we did and we set up local networks before any other 00:35:32.728 --> 00:35:38.166 place on campus had, you know, and so I consider that for this college 00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:41.905 probably other than keeping it together under very strange time, my 00:35:41.938 --> 00:35:47.017 probably my main contribution is to just literally will this place into 00:35:47.050 --> 00:35:51.365 the 21st century ahead of time. What were some of the other challenges 00:35:51.398 --> 00:35:53.865 that you faced during that time period? Well, when I was in college, I 00:35:53.898 --> 00:35:58.865 faced a lot of problems. One is legitimacy, right? Because I was a member 00:35:58.898 --> 00:36:02.546 of the college. And the first thing I did to my own department is to 00:36:02.579 --> 00:36:07.425 increase their teaching mode which caused all kinds of hell. But it was 00:36:07.458 --> 00:36:10.876 inequitable like the school of public affairs when I came, had a one 00:36:10.909 --> 00:36:16.376 course this semester teaching them. And that's very nice. Uh But it 00:36:16.409 --> 00:36:19.126 doesn't make much sense when you're having financial problems and when 00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:23.796 your enrollments are not high enough to be depend on, right? And I didn't 00:36:23.829 --> 00:36:28.017 have any desire to force them to have an undergraduate program. II, I 00:36:28.050 --> 00:36:31.816 personally still believe we should not have undergraduate program in 00:36:31.849 --> 00:36:36.756 public administration, although we have several now. Uh But I said, you 00:36:36.789 --> 00:36:40.126 know, if you guys can't give me a really good strategic plan of how you're 00:36:40.159 --> 00:36:43.456 gonna get resources. I'm gonna have to increase your teaching when they 00:36:43.489 --> 00:36:48.307 thought, oh, well, they didn't do a good job of, of convincing me. And so 00:36:48.340 --> 00:36:52.486 for the spring semester, I doubled the teaching and they said you can't do 00:36:52.519 --> 00:36:57.885 that. I said no, no, read the fine print, I can do that and, and I, and I 00:36:57.918 --> 00:37:01.727 tried to do it in consultation and it didn't work. So like taking one of 00:37:01.760 --> 00:37:05.486 frank sacks wrote, do what needs to be done and then apologize afterwards. 00:37:05.519 --> 00:37:10.747 And that's what I did. Well, you can imagine a faculty of 25 coming down 00:37:10.780 --> 00:37:15.767 the hall in groups of five outraged because it did change their life. Sure. 00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:20.126 Now, if they could buy it back, that is, they could buy the time back by 00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:24.106 going out and getting research degrees or grants or, or telling me they 00:37:24.139 --> 00:37:28.445 were doing something that was very useful that I could measure and defend 00:37:28.478 --> 00:37:32.115 when I had to go to the council of things and go to you when you, when you 00:37:32.148 --> 00:37:35.456 were acting pro host and defend it. Right. Right. And I, and I need a 00:37:35.489 --> 00:37:38.666 number and I needed something other than magic to do it with. And I said, 00:37:38.699 --> 00:37:42.526 if you can convince me that's true, then I will be glad to carry it 00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:45.436 forward. But you can't convince me it's true. It's not gonna leave this 00:37:45.469 --> 00:37:49.615 office and you can go, you can make an Enron, but I like to listen to you 00:37:49.648 --> 00:37:52.956 and Russ Nelson is gonna listen to you and a successor. They're gonna 00:37:52.989 --> 00:37:55.827 listen to you. They're gonna come to me and you're gonna be stuck with 00:37:55.860 --> 00:37:59.836 that. Well, they didn't like that. The second thing is that I got 00:37:59.869 --> 00:38:07.869 crosswise in a couple of personnel decisions. One was 00:38:08.780 --> 00:38:11.916 promoting someone that probably shouldn't have been promoted, but I didn't 00:38:11.949 --> 00:38:17.905 , couldn't control that. And one was denying tenure to a minority woman 00:38:17.938 --> 00:38:22.416 who, who didn't do their own. And that reading caused all kinds of hell. 00:38:22.449 --> 00:38:27.307 And so when my successor was chosen, the first question, two faculties 00:38:27.340 --> 00:38:31.247 asked the two faculties which were affected by the decision was, would you 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:34.916 do as Dean Weschler done? And then they would lay out the dirty laundry, 00:38:34.949 --> 00:38:39.267 right. Well, most of the people who interviewed for the job said, no, we 00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:42.896 don't want to talk about that. Let's talk about what I can do to make this 00:38:42.929 --> 00:38:47.385 a better place. We don't want to repair injustice of the path we want to 00:38:47.418 --> 00:38:52.686 go forward. But uh that, that caused me a lot of problems because on the 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:58.675 one hand, I had to go to the faculty and do something, then I didn't 00:38:58.708 --> 00:39:03.706 totally believe in. But sometimes you have to do that. And the other one, 00:39:03.739 --> 00:39:06.586 I do something which I really believed in but wasn't going to win any 00:39:06.619 --> 00:39:11.816 points with anybody. But my position was that you shouldn't carry 00:39:11.849 --> 00:39:16.307 irresolvable issues upward unless you had to, don't give it to the 00:39:16.340 --> 00:39:21.256 university committee to 00:39:21.289 --> 00:39:24.365 when we, we've talked about your administrative roles and we talked about 00:39:24.398 --> 00:39:28.086 your research and uh doctoral students and all that, but we haven't said 00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:31.646 anything yet about your teaching and, uh you were in a position of uh 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:35.385 being a, a leader in that area as well with some of the honors and awards 00:39:35.418 --> 00:39:37.986 that you received. Tell us a little bit about that. Well, I'm gonna have 00:39:38.019 --> 00:39:42.646 to go back and tell you a long boring story. But bear with me when I was 00:39:42.679 --> 00:39:46.287 at Davis, when I first started, I wasn't a very good teacher and I don't 00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:51.356 think many young, freshly minted phd S are very good teachers. There are 00:39:51.389 --> 00:39:54.316 some, but they're very rare. Usually there are people who have taught a 00:39:54.349 --> 00:39:59.405 lot before they get the doctor. And I had this young woman who was one of 00:39:59.438 --> 00:40:03.467 my advises and Davis, you get them when they're freshmen and you keep them 00:40:03.500 --> 00:40:07.967 for four years unless they decide to fire you. Well, I had the same young 00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:12.186 woman as my adviser for six years, four years for a baccalaureate and two 00:40:12.219 --> 00:40:17.436 years for a master's degree. And I learned a lot from her. And then after 00:40:17.469 --> 00:40:20.186 she was working on her master's degree, she went to work for the State 00:40:20.219 --> 00:40:23.997 Department of Water Resources with whom I was already consulting and she 00:40:24.030 --> 00:40:28.486 hired me to come over and talk to the new interns and the new 00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:32.816 administrators about how you get along with the legislators. Because a lot 00:40:32.849 --> 00:40:37.287 of these people are engineers and business managers and you know, 00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:40.296 technical people, field people and they had the slightest idea about 00:40:40.329 --> 00:40:45.776 politics and they just as soon not have any politics on their plate. So 00:40:45.809 --> 00:40:51.206 I'm giving them my standard song dance about lobbying legislators and the 00:40:51.239 --> 00:40:54.967 role of public administrators being lobbyists and stuff like that. And I 00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:58.577 notice she's back in the corner taking notes 00:40:58.610 --> 00:41:04.365 and when God, she must have heard this conversation 30 times in the last 00:41:04.398 --> 00:41:09.986 five years, this is impossible. So I invited her to lunch. Name is 00:41:10.019 --> 00:41:13.316 Charlotte. And I said, Charlotte, what in the hell is going on here? And 00:41:13.349 --> 00:41:16.327 she turned real red and says, lou it's the first time I ever understood 00:41:16.360 --> 00:41:20.566 anything you ever said. 00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:24.956 Well, was it not fine? You know, now, at this point, I thought that I was 00:41:24.989 --> 00:41:29.477 just being brilliant and, you know, and I will tell you that I think I'm 00:41:29.510 --> 00:41:33.776 pretty smart, but I quickly discovered that I wasn't really as good a 00:41:33.809 --> 00:41:38.166 teacher as I thought I was. And so she and I had a number of lunches and 00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:42.037 then I called back students who take classes for me because I, I was 00:41:42.070 --> 00:41:45.365 actually a very popular teacher and I want to teach you a word to do it. 00:41:45.398 --> 00:41:50.816 And it turned out that being glib was what they were in China. 00:41:50.849 --> 00:41:53.807 And the fact that I could explain things even to the point, they couldn't 00:41:53.840 --> 00:41:58.635 understand it. Uh and things like that. And it turned out I was a very 00:41:58.668 --> 00:42:02.646 good public speaker, but I said, no, no. Come on. Did you actually learn 00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:07.506 anything? And so we had a long discussion and at that point, I created for 00:42:07.539 --> 00:42:12.467 myself, two or three rules and one rule. And, you know, many of you are 00:42:12.500 --> 00:42:15.776 not gonna believe this is to always listen to the students first and talk 00:42:15.809 --> 00:42:17.916 later. 00:42:17.949 --> 00:42:23.376 And that's a hard rule for me. But it worked and uh sometimes it was 00:42:23.409 --> 00:42:28.385 painful for me and the students because I would say something or I put 00:42:28.418 --> 00:42:30.756 something on the board of discussion question and I wouldn't say a word 00:42:30.789 --> 00:42:33.425 until the students started talking about it. And those minutes would take 00:42:33.458 --> 00:42:40.376 away slowly. The second rule I had was I, I would now try to customize 00:42:40.409 --> 00:42:45.345 every class so that the least capable student would actually learn 00:42:45.378 --> 00:42:47.477 something. 00:42:47.510 --> 00:42:51.296 And the third thing I would do is I would make them write and write and 00:42:51.329 --> 00:42:56.856 write and write. Well, over the years I became 00:42:56.889 --> 00:43:01.776 first a good teacher. And then I think a really a really good teacher or I 00:43:01.809 --> 00:43:05.856 wouldn't have been on so many dissertations. I wouldn't, I won teaching 00:43:05.889 --> 00:43:09.195 awards every place I've been at every level you can imagine including a 00:43:09.228 --> 00:43:12.997 lifetime award as the best teacher in public administration nationally. 00:43:13.030 --> 00:43:19.666 We're very proud of that or Yeah. Uh but I wouldn't have won it in 1968. 00:43:19.699 --> 00:43:25.876 I, so this woman actually changed my life, but I'm smart enough to have 00:43:25.909 --> 00:43:29.626 figured out that she changed my life. But I thanked her for it and so 00:43:29.659 --> 00:43:35.537 forth. She was very embarrassed but it uh it worked out. 00:43:35.570 --> 00:43:40.066 Ross was really important person to change this university, 00:43:40.099 --> 00:43:43.916 as I said before, he was a patron saint of the arts and kept the arts at a 00:43:43.949 --> 00:43:46.577 high level. 00:43:46.610 --> 00:43:52.175 Although Lady K gets most of the credit now for creating this as a 00:43:52.208 --> 00:43:57.095 research university was actually Russ Nelson and the three provost 00:43:57.128 --> 00:44:01.717 including yourself who made a su into research agenda. That's right. And 00:44:01.750 --> 00:44:07.646 you did it and, and uh it turned out, lady came here exactly the right 00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:11.967 time to get credit for the recognition of the outside world. But it was 00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:17.247 really those eight years um that made this a research university and it 00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:22.115 was done very quietly, but it was done diligently. It showed up many 00:44:22.148 --> 00:44:26.546 places and resource allocation. So I admire Russ Nelson, not because he 00:44:26.579 --> 00:44:29.916 can hold his temper credit almost anybody else in the world, but because 00:44:29.949 --> 00:44:34.655 he was a person who shared a vision of the university with talented people 00:44:34.688 --> 00:44:40.845 around him and mobilize them in his quiet way to create the university, a 00:44:40.878 --> 00:44:45.827 different university. Um So I think that I think Paige Mulholland who I 00:44:45.860 --> 00:44:48.486 didn't know very well, it was a very, very important to me. Not only did 00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:51.956 he get me here, but he's actually largely responsible. The fact that we 00:44:51.989 --> 00:44:56.756 have a multi campus system. He inherited. Russell Nelson inherited this 00:44:56.789 --> 00:45:00.276 from him, wasn't entirely happy about it, but page actually laid the 00:45:00.309 --> 00:45:05.057 foundation for the west campus and east campus in his work. And so I 00:45:05.090 --> 00:45:09.675 admire him for that. Although I did, I mention Nick Henry who has been 00:45:09.708 --> 00:45:14.396 born in my side for years, I admire Nick Henry because he was the right 00:45:14.429 --> 00:45:18.175 person at the right time doing the right thing for whatever reasons. And 00:45:18.208 --> 00:45:21.675 so he created the School of public Affairs and he did something that's 00:45:21.708 --> 00:45:25.675 very hard in a modern university. He got away with creating a unit where 00:45:25.708 --> 00:45:29.416 you can actually balance public service research and teaching and get 00:45:29.449 --> 00:45:33.206 credit for it. He always spoke as a three legs to. That's right. That was 00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:37.006 his favorite term and three leg to a right. And Ron Perry is the only 00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:41.845 person who ever won that. But the point is that's a major accomplishment. 00:45:41.878 --> 00:45:47.776 I thought that two or three of the deans over here and this is like 00:45:47.809 --> 00:45:52.066 be popular. Everybody. I think John mcaffrey, I mean, uh Jerry mcaffrey 00:45:52.099 --> 00:45:56.816 was a good thing, but I think that John mcgee was an excellent dean. The 00:45:56.849 --> 00:46:01.365 faculty generally don't agree with me on that, but mcsherry has to be, I 00:46:01.398 --> 00:46:05.546 mean, um it has to be viewed the same way they can they're outside, 00:46:05.579 --> 00:46:08.997 they're not really good administrators inside the university setting. 00:46:09.030 --> 00:46:13.247 They're very good at connecting the unit with the world outside and they 00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:19.675 both so I admire on that. Um, who else? Well, I actually think a couple of 00:46:19.708 --> 00:46:24.537 our football coaches are pretty good, including my neighbor, 00:46:24.570 --> 00:46:28.727 Kush Frank Frank's might be my neighbor. I lived here and Frank, you know 00:46:28.760 --> 00:46:35.845 , is, is it, it is for good or bad, is, in fact, uh person, great 00:46:35.878 --> 00:46:39.885 reputation. He certainly put a su on the map. And I think Schneider was an 00:46:39.918 --> 00:46:46.155 underrated coach when he went Ks opposite of front koh, but Schneider was 00:46:46.188 --> 00:46:51.026 a great coach and he, and he put a su back on the map. I didn't know the 00:46:51.059 --> 00:46:54.816 basketball coaches as well and I did come to UCL A. So you can imagine the 00:46:54.849 --> 00:47:02.787 comparisons I made here. Um I think Jack uh King was a good provost at 00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:06.217 least for the first four or five years. He was here. He brought in 00:47:06.250 --> 00:47:10.865 computer infusion. He brought in affirmative action with a vengeance here. 00:47:10.898 --> 00:47:13.896 He was a little too much science oriented for me, but the science has 00:47:13.929 --> 00:47:20.385 flourished under his, under his time here. Um I think Jack Fisher was an 00:47:20.418 --> 00:47:24.186 important resource for this university, both when he was president of the 00:47:24.219 --> 00:47:28.217 regions and then later when he became my colleague as a faculty member and 00:47:28.250 --> 00:47:33.675 then confidant of higher administration. So I admire him, I admire him. He 00:47:33.708 --> 00:47:37.046 can lie. But anybody I ever saw him the first time I ever saw Jack on 00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:41.296 television, he was explaining that the Navajo generator didn't really 00:47:41.329 --> 00:47:45.646 cause any pollution. I found that hard to believe and I still find it 00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:49.635 harder. So I challenged on that once. He, it was my job to say that. And 00:47:49.668 --> 00:47:53.086 that was his only explanation. I think that's kind of interesting. So, 00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:56.646 Jack and I are really close friends. We see each other one time. I think I 00:47:56.679 --> 00:48:00.827 , I considered Charles Wolf 00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:08.115 as important as any administrator that a SU had in the last 40 years. Uh I 00:48:08.148 --> 00:48:13.365 think he virtually is the greatest English scientist. But beyond that, he 00:48:13.398 --> 00:48:17.956 was a lot more tolerant of diversity, academic diversity than he gets 00:48:17.989 --> 00:48:22.856 credit for. And he fostered a lot of interesting experiments in the 00:48:22.889 --> 00:48:28.175 university and he was a really good graduate dean. And I think Brian 00:48:28.208 --> 00:48:32.236 Foster was a really good graduate dean. And so I count both of them as 00:48:32.269 --> 00:48:36.706 being really important to a hu. And to me, certainly my job was a lot 00:48:36.739 --> 00:48:40.997 easier to do as head of the DP A program with Chuck Wolf and Brian Foster 00:48:41.030 --> 00:48:44.896 in the dean's office 00:48:44.929 --> 00:48:50.856 out of all your accomplishments at a su uh what would you say? It gave you 00:48:50.889 --> 00:48:54.936 the most satisfaction. You did so many different things, but I think 00:48:54.969 --> 00:49:01.186 successful mentoring of Don for students. Um I mentioned in the little 00:49:01.219 --> 00:49:05.945 resume I wrote recently that the hardest thing for an academic to judge 00:49:05.978 --> 00:49:10.396 unless they are reading a genius in their uh in their contribution to 00:49:10.429 --> 00:49:17.126 science is to judge the long lasting impacts of what they do. Um Very few 00:49:17.159 --> 00:49:22.986 of us are such important sciences that we made the kind of contribution 00:49:23.019 --> 00:49:27.017 that turns our field in our heads. And certainly I can make no claims of 00:49:27.050 --> 00:49:31.175 that. I did some important things, but they tend to be an applied science 00:49:31.208 --> 00:49:38.175 rather than basic science. Um But I think we can judge part of impact by 00:49:38.208 --> 00:49:45.146 the students of our students. Now, in my case, about half of my students 00:49:45.179 --> 00:49:51.497 were administrators, about half of academics. But as I explained to BJ 00:49:51.530 --> 00:49:55.736 Tatro who is a consultant, we're all teaching all the time whether we know 00:49:55.769 --> 00:49:59.477 it or not. And the question is, are we self conscious about it? I mean, 00:49:59.510 --> 00:50:02.655 every human being, I mean, it's a cliche but it's true. Every human being 00:50:02.688 --> 00:50:05.836 is teaching something, parents teaching something, a dog trainer is 00:50:05.869 --> 00:50:10.756 teaching something even if they're not a dog. And the issue is not that 00:50:10.789 --> 00:50:13.756 they're having impact on the people's lives. I'm learning with them. Are 00:50:13.789 --> 00:50:18.086 they self conscious about that? And do they behave in such a way that they 00:50:18.119 --> 00:50:23.195 account for the learning needs of the environment around them? So I take 00:50:23.228 --> 00:50:29.327 greatest pride in the fact that both the academics who went on in, in a 00:50:29.360 --> 00:50:34.195 clinic life and those who went to administrative positions or manage 00:50:34.228 --> 00:50:41.497 positions are really good teachers. Ok. Not all of them. Not 100% but far 00:50:41.530 --> 00:50:45.997 more than I had imagined. That would be true when I did my first doctoral 00:50:46.030 --> 00:50:52.489 student at, uh, University of California Davis, who was older than I was. 00:50:53.418 --> 00:50:55.418 How do you feel a su changed from the time you came here until the time 00:50:57.119 --> 00:51:02.486 you retired or even down? Yeah, I think, I think a su has really changed 00:51:02.519 --> 00:51:05.467 and I don't take much credit for it, but I think it's worthwhile thinking 00:51:05.500 --> 00:51:11.497 about uh I think about it in terms of first of faculty resources, this is 00:51:11.530 --> 00:51:16.425 a radically different faculty than it was 30 years in the. And one can 00:51:16.458 --> 00:51:20.247 argue, one can think about the good old days when everybody was a good 00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:24.126 teacher and they weren't, you know, and so forth and so on. There's a lot 00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:29.376 of romanticism about that. But the major change is that the science that 00:51:29.409 --> 00:51:34.836 this fact that produces is really almost immeasurable. I mean, this is 00:51:34.869 --> 00:51:40.537 really a major fountain of science, both for Arizona and the world. I mean 00:51:40.570 --> 00:51:47.425 , this is we produce at almost every college, cutting edge of applied and 00:51:47.458 --> 00:51:51.376 basic research. That was not true 30 years ago. That's true. II I can 00:51:51.409 --> 00:51:54.635 think of only one or two departments in which that's not true. I mean, 00:51:54.668 --> 00:51:57.816 there are some departments that don't do research so we can't say that. 00:51:57.849 --> 00:52:02.146 But even even in the arts, we have leading scholars and, and performers in 00:52:02.179 --> 00:52:07.206 that. Uh certainly in the hard science and certainly in the bioscience and 00:52:07.239 --> 00:52:13.146 certainly in the behavior science and certainly in management. Uh we do a 00:52:13.179 --> 00:52:16.497 lot of tuning in our home locally. But if you actually look at the members 00:52:16.530 --> 00:52:20.695 of the national academies, we have a member of people win awards every 00:52:20.728 --> 00:52:25.675 year for their contribution to the knowledge of the world. This is now 00:52:25.708 --> 00:52:30.276 this, this university in its own right is equal to the University of 00:52:30.309 --> 00:52:34.095 Arizona. Nobody in the University of Arizona even admit that. That's true. 00:52:34.128 --> 00:52:37.436 But it is true. We don't have a medical school, we don't have a cultural 00:52:37.469 --> 00:52:40.945 school so we really can't compete with them. But if you take those two 00:52:40.978 --> 00:52:45.646 pieces out in every other way possible, we are as equal to them and our 00:52:45.679 --> 00:52:50.316 rankings show that that's true. Uh The second thing is that along with 00:52:50.349 --> 00:52:53.445 that teaching is actually better than it was when I came here. Now, 00:52:53.478 --> 00:52:58.577 remember I'm talking about teaching broadly defined, we still have too 00:52:58.610 --> 00:53:05.816 many undergraduates not getting the full impact of full professors. We 00:53:05.849 --> 00:53:09.977 have, our classes are too big largely because they're underfunded or we 00:53:10.010 --> 00:53:13.905 make bad resource allocation. We don't actually, even though we go a lot 00:53:13.938 --> 00:53:17.896 of space, we don't have enough teaching space. And so, but given those 00:53:17.929 --> 00:53:22.537 constraints, I would say any average, the average teacher here is a more 00:53:22.570 --> 00:53:28.026 proficient teacher than they were 30 years ago. I think we're not as good 00:53:28.059 --> 00:53:31.477 at public service as we were 30 years ago. And that pains me somewhat 00:53:31.510 --> 00:53:35.066 probably because it's not rewarded as much. It's not a formal reward 00:53:35.099 --> 00:53:40.876 system. That's the one thing is declined. Um, certainly the overhead costs 00:53:40.909 --> 00:53:44.385 in university are much higher than it used to be and being somewhat 00:53:44.418 --> 00:53:47.635 financially conservative. That causes me a lot of discomfort because I 00:53:47.668 --> 00:53:53.586 know you can do a lot better with less than, um, I, I, sometimes I try not 00:53:53.619 --> 00:53:56.776 to be critical but sometimes when I go to the website and look at the 00:53:56.809 --> 00:54:01.267 number of administrators it takes to do 00:54:01.300 --> 00:54:07.827 the work of one person. It's bizarre 00:54:07.860 --> 00:54:10.586 calling your retirement. I know that, uh, you've had a continued 00:54:10.619 --> 00:54:14.635 involvement with a su and, uh, tell us about that through various 00:54:14.668 --> 00:54:18.905 organizations. Yeah. Well, uh, 00:54:18.938 --> 00:54:24.186 I, I joined, I think I might have joined the Arizona Retire Association 00:54:24.219 --> 00:54:28.037 actually, before I retired. I think I joined the year before. I think 00:54:28.070 --> 00:54:32.276 that's very important because it is a broadly based retirees association 00:54:32.309 --> 00:54:37.986 so that the lowest member of whatever would go around or janitor can join 00:54:38.019 --> 00:54:43.155 in as well as vice President Provost, I suppose. I don't think any of the 00:54:43.188 --> 00:54:47.517 presidents bond. I don't think so. They should. Laddie and Russ should 00:54:47.550 --> 00:54:51.425 join but they're not, uh, because I think it's an important organization 00:54:51.458 --> 00:54:57.396 because it provides a home and a linkage in a community communication 00:54:57.429 --> 00:55:01.756 system for people who otherwise would be cut completely off in place. They 00:55:01.789 --> 00:55:05.526 might have spent 40 years of their life. I only spent 20 years here, but 00:55:05.559 --> 00:55:09.396 you were here nearly 40 years and, you know, a lot of staff, people have 00:55:09.429 --> 00:55:12.606 been here 40 years or more, you know. So, I think it's an important 00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:16.865 organization. Uh, and I think it does a lot of good things. I think the 00:55:16.898 --> 00:55:21.967 lobbying effort is astoundingly good. I think the service things we do. I 00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:26.865 , I think keeping me both update on retiring and the medical care issue. I 00:55:26.898 --> 00:55:31.217 think the travel things are kind of interesting, hard to do, but they tend 00:55:31.250 --> 00:55:36.506 to work pretty well. And um I've actually heard people say they would know 00:55:36.539 --> 00:55:40.236 , in fact, they learn more about the university through this organization 00:55:40.269 --> 00:55:43.256 after retired than they knew before. So I think it's an important 00:55:43.289 --> 00:55:46.236 organization, 00:55:46.269 --> 00:55:50.767 my main love and I'm gonna go back to my previous life. I used to be a 00:55:50.800 --> 00:55:55.796 very unsuccessful commercial artist and, and landscape painter uh for 20 00:55:55.829 --> 00:56:00.796 years. And, and so when I retired from a su I decided to become a patron 00:56:00.829 --> 00:56:06.037 of the arts and become a practicing artist. And I suddenly discovered one 00:56:06.070 --> 00:56:10.865 day that I hadn't been the art museum for six months. And I said, oh my 00:56:10.898 --> 00:56:14.686 God, this is crazy because I used to go every week. So I said, what am I 00:56:14.719 --> 00:56:17.686 gonna do? I know I'll go work there, I'll make sure I get there. And so 00:56:17.719 --> 00:56:21.606 that's what I did. I showed up at the store one day and the real iron who 00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:26.356 had been running the store for now, 40 years, husband was a chem chemistry 00:56:26.389 --> 00:56:28.885 class. 00:56:28.918 --> 00:56:32.967 Uh, you know, that's all she did for 40 years back in the days when it was 00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:37.155 on the first landing and Matthew's home. So I walked up and, and I 00:56:37.188 --> 00:56:42.296 introduced myself and it turned up. But Nelson was sitting there too and I 00:56:42.329 --> 00:56:47.227 said, can I go to work here? Benina says, how about Thursday? Well, this 00:56:47.260 --> 00:56:49.655 is on Tuesday. 00:56:49.688 --> 00:56:54.017 So I went to work on Thursday and then I went upstairs the next week and 00:56:54.050 --> 00:57:00.925 introduced myself to the woman Michelle talk who is running the Doson 00:57:00.958 --> 00:57:03.267 program. He said, well, you're not allowed to work in the store without 00:57:03.300 --> 00:57:06.727 being trained in the General Nelson program. I said that will be news. 00:57:06.760 --> 00:57:11.486 Everybody works in the store, but I'm gay. So in that spring, I went to 00:57:11.519 --> 00:57:15.517 an informal training program for the Doson. There turned out to be 30 of 00:57:15.550 --> 00:57:20.126 us being trained, which is the high point so far in the last decade. And 00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:23.595 there were three men there including me and we were the first three, first 00:57:23.628 --> 00:57:29.756 , three male, dozens all time and we all three are still there. Uh So 00:57:29.789 --> 00:57:32.666 that's how that started. But it's largely because of my interest in the 00:57:32.699 --> 00:57:36.345 arts that I went to the art Museum. Well, without a su of course, I 00:57:36.378 --> 00:57:40.827 wouldn't, I've done something wonderful. And thank you. For taking time to 00:57:40.860 --> 00:57:44.827 let us chat with you about uh your, your history at a su and all the, the 00:57:44.860 --> 00:57:50.739 changes that you saw. My pleasure. Thank you once again, appreciate it.