WEBVTT

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I'm Dean Smith. And uh I've been at a su for so long, I've forgotten any

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time when I wasn't. I spent the
longest time as, as director of

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publications for the university. And
then we'll go back and start at the

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beginning. And I'd like to start at
the very beginning and ask you when

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and where you were born? I was born in
Salina, Kansas and on April 3rd,

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1923.

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And what kind of a, of a family? Was
it a farm family? It's the line of

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Kansas makes me think of farming. Did
you grow up? No, they were in the

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hardware business. And my dad had the,
uh, the LL Smith hardware in

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Phoenix for 44 years. You've probably
seen their store. It was a quite a

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favorite of a lot of people, but I
didn't like the store business. All I

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wanted to do was be in journalism. So,
uh, I deserted. I was the only one

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who escaped. When did your family come
from Kansas to Arizona? It came in

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1933 because my younger brother had
asthma at that time. Nobody else came

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to Arizona unless they were sick. Or
crazy one or the other. So, you were

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about 10 years old. Exactly. And what
was your first impression of Arizona

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? I wanted to go back to Kansas

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and I was, it was pretty hard. Uh, it
took a while to get acquainted and

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they made fun of my clothes and I
didn't wear jeans like everybody else

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did and all that. I got to where I
look it. I liked it very much. What

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part of Arizona did your family settle
in? Glendale? I went to Glendale

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grade school and high school.
Graduated from high school in 1940 came over

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here at a Suastc,

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I should say

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what was Glendale like. Then there was
a great place to live. It was about

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4000 people. It was a farm community
surrounded by farms. It was nine

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miles from Glendale to Phoenix and you
can go on the Manderson bus for a

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quarter and we did that quite often
down Grand Avenue. And uh

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they had a big ice plant there,
Crystal Ice and they iced the railroad

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cars and shipped cantaloupes and
lettuce and that sort of thing to the

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east. So agriculture was the heart of
Glendale. What about Phoenix? You

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said you could take the, the bus down
to Phoenix. Um What was Phoenix like

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? Phoenix had about 40,000 people at
that time, maybe a little less. And

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uh there are some nice theaters
downtown, the Orpheum and the Fox

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particularly and some nice restaurants
but there wasn't much else. The

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Indian people used to come in on
weekends and, and sit on the sidewalk on

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Washington Street and sell their
wares. And, uh, it was a pretty small

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town atmosphere.

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So, tell me a little bit about your
life as a boy growing up. Um, what

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kind of things did you do as a boy?

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Well, I'd always wanted to write. In
fact, I fell out of a tree when I was

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eight years old and broke both wrists
and knocked myself unconscious. And

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they say when I came out, I'll never
ride again. So that's, that felt,

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that was a big thing to me even at
that time. And when I came back from

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the service, I could have, I had the
grades and the, the G I be able to go

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almost anywhere. But no, I had to stay
here and be a newspaper. Man. Could

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have been a doctor, lawyer, financier,
who knows. So, a boy in, in going

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in Glendale, um, you went to Glendale
high school? Glendale? Were you a

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good student? I was the salutatorian
in our class.

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I was a pretty good student, I guess.
So. Uh, athlete. Well, tell me about

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what kind of athlete were you? Oh, I
held, I held a state record and a

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half mile for a while and, uh, I
played in a little dance band. I, I was

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into everything I, I enjoyed high
school. And what about your classes.

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What classes did you like?

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Oh, I like history. Spanish English.
Uh, I hated the science courses.

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They're very poorly in them. Not if
you became the Salutatorian, you

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couldn't have done too poorly. Um,
what, when did you first start writing

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? What did you, what were the first
things you wrote?

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Well, I suppose the first thing I ever
got paid to write was, uh, I was a

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high school correspondent for the
Glendale News. And, uh, that made me

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home sometimes as much as a dollar and
a half a week. But it was a lot of

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fun. And, uh, to see your name in,

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I think we all have that, uh, that
sort of ego when we, we writers.

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What about school papers and things
like that? Yeah, I was on the school

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paper, I was editor of the State Press
here at the su and later I was

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editor of the, uh, of the yearbook as
well in another year or so. That's

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always been a prime interest.

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You mentioned your, your family came
out here for your brother's health.

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How, how big a family did you come
from? One brother and one sister,

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younger or older, sister's older, he's
younger and we're all still alive

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and living in the area.

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So, when you graduated from high
school, did you have any idea then what

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you wanted to do? I want to write for
a newspaper.

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So, tell me about how you went about
do going in that career path.

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I said I had, I been a high school
correspondent for the Glendale News and

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on the spring that I graduated in 1940
I, I went to work as a cub reporter

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there and was listed as news editor.
Boy, I'll tell you that was really

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hot stuff. That was the first real job
I had in the business

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and later on after the war I, I was in
with several other newspapers. Did

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the newspaper, people give you advice
about how you go when, what you

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should do to become a journalist or

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the main thing is to be interested in
everything and ask questions and to

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have Catholic interests, I guess you
might say to, uh, I want to talk to

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people about their business and their,
I always enjoyed interviewing

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people to find out about them. I've
been, uh blessed to interview a lot of

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celebrities and it, uh it's always
fun.

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So tell me about how you decided to
come to a SU again.

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I came to SU because I couldn't afford
to go anywhere else. I frankly, uh

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, a stc I had been offered a track
scholarship down at the U of A but

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somehow it fell in the cracks and it
never came through. So I came over

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here and, uh, awful glad I did. What
year was that? 1940? Describe for me

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what the papus was like when you came
here? Well, we had 1300 students and

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48 faculty.

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And uh there was the old main
quadrangle,

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the science building which is now the
university club and the auditorium

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gymnasium, which is now a language and
literature. That was the heart of

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the campus. And uh behind that was the
pain training school. This was a

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teacher's college. Remember? And the
president's home was, was behind Old

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Maine and uh the quadrangle east,
west, north and south,

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most of the students lived was where
the library is now.

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He's tall. Right. Spent most of my
time right where the main library is

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and of course west to, is still there.

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I think there's, isn't that, uh,
social work now? I think it is. Uh huh.

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And north and south are long gone.

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So it was pretty small then, wasn't
it? 1300 students? Most of our high

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schools were bigger. Well, if you
wanted to be a journalist, why would you

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come to a teacher's college? As I
said, it was a hope we can afford. I had

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to have a job even to go there. I
think my dad gave me $10 and said, go to

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it. I didn't have much help after
that. That's an interesting point at

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that time. Almost all the work on this
campus was done by students. I

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don't think there were a dozen staff
people, uh, full time staff, people

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on the campus, all the waiting and the
waiters in the cafeteria, the, uh,

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maintenance people, floor sweepers.
Everybody were students and they all

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had student jobs. I couldn't have come
otherwise because this was, we were

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just coming out of the, out of the
depression at that time.

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Everybody was poor, but we didn't
realize it. So we had a good time. What

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kind of jobs did you have to put
yourself through college? I worked in the

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news bureau and then, uh, a state
press editor, but I didn't get to finish

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that year because I was called into
the service. What year was that? 42?

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43? That was when you started on
Monday and you had a bunch of people

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around you. And by Friday there were
probably a third of the men were gone

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by that time.

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Well, tell me what, what were those
ears like? I mean, the, the Warriors,

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I wasn't here before you, before I
left. I remember that, that you wanted

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when your number was gonna come up, I
had, had volunteered for a program

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and I'm all for that. I did because it
was pre meteorology. I was sent to

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Pomona and, and Yale University in
that program. So I would, I really

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lucked out on that.

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But the girls are about the only, the
only live people that were, were

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left.

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It's hard to believe. But the
enrollment dipped below 500 at one time in

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1945

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they did have a Cadet Air Force Cadet
unit here. For a time which probably

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kept the place from going bankrupt.

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But it was just a matter of survival.
There was nothing new happened. They

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just holding on until the war was over
and nobody knew where that was

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gonna be. That's right. So you, you
say you went to Pomona and Yale?

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That's right. Two very fine schools.
Tell me about what you did during

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those war years. Well, most of it was,
was math and physics. The training

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part of it, the things that I hated
the worst. But I kept thinking about

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what the infantry was like and I
decided I could, could like science and,

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and, uh, and math better than I
thought I could. Of course, when I got to

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Yale, then we were, they changed the
program and I became a communications

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officer and we worked with radio most
of the time and that's how I was

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assigned when I was commissioned.

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And I was a cryptology officer for a
long time. I worked in a code room

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and top secret stuff. This was, this
was fun. Too exciting. Where were you

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? I was stationed in the Aleutian
Islands most of that time. It's a place

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where somebody said it's worth about
15 minutes of post war conversation.

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It's really a pretty, a pretty deserted area and the sun rarely shines.

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It's cold and dreary and snowy and
rainy and it's not much. You, well, if

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you remember the Japanese took over at
tattoo and, uh, Tato and Chemi, I

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should say on the far end of the
chain. And so we, they had a big naval

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base there and 11th Air Force
headquarters was at Adac where I was

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stationed. We didn't want the Japanese
coming and invading Seattle.

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So, which branch of the service were
you in? Air Force? I stayed in the

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Air Force Reserve for 35 years.
Although I, at the time I didn't think I

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would ever do such a thing. But, uh,
it was a big part of my life, I guess.

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So. That's a long time. You
lieutenant? No, I was a full colonel full

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when you,

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yeah, a long time to stay in. Um,
well, let's see. Well, tell me about

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when you finally came back. Um, when
was that? Well, that was exciting.

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That was in June of 1946

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and the first GIS were just coming
back at that time and the, it, it got

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very crowded in a hurry. All the, uh,
dormitories filled up. They, they

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put three in the room and sometimes
four in Irish Hall. They even used

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phone booth for one room and they
built Victory Village. Have you ever

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heard of Victory Village? That's where
the married couples lived and they

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had quite Roy Doyle was there. Did he
mention that today? Mhm.

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I was to see all this going on and of
course, there was no way to take

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care of this rush of humanity. With
infrastructure or faculty or anything

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else. We just, it was like a flood.
So, where did you live? When you came

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back? Irish Hall? I just had a year or
two to serve before I graduated in

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47.

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And you graduated, you said in 47 what
was your major then? Well, because

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we didn't have a journalism major at
that time. It was business. I was in

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the first, the first group which uh
which graduated with a BS in Business.

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Say the year before in 45 they had changed the name Terrorism State

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College. And it authorized a bunch of
new degrees before that. It was only

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teaching and most of us didn't want to
be teachers anyway. So this was a

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good thing for us.

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So what did you plan to do after you
graduated? I went with the newspaper

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again

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first to Glendale into the Mesa
Tribune and then finally over to the

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Republic.

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I was there for seven years. Well,
tell me about those, those jobs. How

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long were you at each of them? And I
was at Glendale a little less than,

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than two years. I was editor at that
time. Title and move Salary shall we

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say? And uh I was fired there the only
time in my life, the publisher said

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he just couldn't afford to keep that
many people on the payroll. So I

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started looking around and I got a
call the next day from some tribute

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they were looking for a sports editor.
It just couldn't have happened

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because that was my major interest,

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Charlie Mitten.

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And uh

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like everybody else, a small daily, uh
paper was just changing from weekly

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to a daily at the time that I went
over there. And we work from seven in

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the morning until seven at night.
Usually if there was a city council

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meeting, we were there with our
cameras and our, everybody loved it. This

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was just what we wanted to do, worked
on Saturdays.

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So why did you leave the MESA paper
then? Well, I got a call from Don

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Kinsel who was director of athletics
over here and a good friend of mine

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that they needed a sports information
director. This was in 1950. So I

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came, this was my first job

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and like everybody else because of the
budget situation, we had two jobs.

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I was director of Sports Information
and now they have, I think 10 people

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in that doing that job. And I was also
the uh director of student

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publications supervising the your book
in the, the newspaper. So we were

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expected to do all that for us. $300 a
month salary.

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How did that compare with the
newspaper salaries? It was the same. They

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found out what I was making over there
in Oman.

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Yeah. And so then you said you, you
let's see. How long did you stay there

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at all? The sports job? Well, two
years later, I, I covered a su sports

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all the time, I would say. So I really
never got off the campus for very

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long, but there was an opening in the
Republic in 1952. And I went over

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there and spent seven years in their
sports desk.

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At the end of that time, I got a call
from Gober Katie and create a gamb

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that they, they want me to come over
here to, to head up their new uh

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publications bureau.

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And I was, was there for the rest of
my career.

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So most of your newspaper career then
was in the sports area. Is there any

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particularly memorable um sports
events that, oh, so many, I, you ever

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heard the name Wizard White? Milford
White? He wore number 33 and he is

00:18:25.098 --> 00:18:29.545
still the most exciting halfback I've
ever seen. I think he was on, on

00:18:29.578 --> 00:18:37.578
Eddie Doherty's teams and in the late,
excuse me, the late forties. And uh

00:18:37.779 --> 00:18:42.127
he still is in town. He, his son,
Danny now is the coach of the Arizona

00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:44.656
Rattlers.

00:18:44.689 --> 00:18:48.696
So it was, it was kind of hard for,
for Wilfrid to, he was idolized and

00:18:48.729 --> 00:18:52.916
now he's known as Danny White's
father, but she doesn't care for a whole

00:18:52.949 --> 00:18:54.976
lot.

00:18:55.009 --> 00:19:02.266
We had a scandal and 1951 when uh
coach Larry Simmy recruited some people

00:19:02.299 --> 00:19:07.967
who were not eligible and this was
found out by

00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:13.746
some other people. And then, uh the
university college was put on

00:19:13.779 --> 00:19:20.357
probation for two years and it really
set us back a long way and, uh,

00:19:20.390 --> 00:19:26.617
working with a team at that time it
was, I had pretty stressful, pretty

00:19:26.650 --> 00:19:33.506
stressful period. That was the
football team. Yeah. Was football the major

00:19:33.539 --> 00:19:40.887
sport here? Well, an interesting thing
and I don't suppose anybody or if

00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:45.357
you know this, but the first sport
that we made national on the national

00:19:45.390 --> 00:19:51.357
scene was track and field. Don Kinzel,
who was director of athletics was a

00:19:51.390 --> 00:19:57.147
Olympic class hurdler and he devoted
to a lot of scholarships and a lot of

00:19:57.180 --> 00:20:02.416
talent and energy and the recruiting
quota, track team. I think his second

00:20:02.449 --> 00:20:06.776
year, we, we tied with us c which won
the national championship for four

00:20:06.809 --> 00:20:12.926
or five years in a row. Almost instant
uh, success, you might say. So we

00:20:12.959 --> 00:20:16.637
sent teams back to the Drake relays
and, uh to New York for Meats and all

00:20:16.670 --> 00:20:22.045
that sort of thing, won the conference
championship year after year.

00:20:22.078 --> 00:20:25.627
But that then football did take over
when, when Eddie Doherty got here and

00:20:25.660 --> 00:20:31.295
, uh, with his team, when you were the
director of sports Information, did

00:20:31.328 --> 00:20:35.377
you get to travel back to some of
those?

00:20:35.410 --> 00:20:40.887
And as a reporter also, I'll never
forget. 1951 we brought the first black

00:20:40.920 --> 00:20:44.186
players into the Southwest Conference.

00:20:44.219 --> 00:20:51.867
I played at the University of Arkansas
and, uh, we had two bikes and, uh,

00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:56.565
the reporters were all over me asking,
do you always do this, do you? I

00:20:56.598 --> 00:21:02.565
said, we try, we broke the color
barrier in the southwest where we was far

00:21:02.598 --> 00:21:09.246
ahead of everybody else. And uh they
said, well, we can't guarantee their

00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:12.656
safety. You know, that was usually the
argument, everything went smoothly

00:21:12.689 --> 00:21:15.897
, I suppose there were some words
exchanged, but there was no trouble at

00:21:15.930 --> 00:21:21.236
all. And that from then on it opened
the door and black athletes appeared

00:21:21.269 --> 00:21:25.926
all over the conference. So we're
rather proud of that. Something I had

00:21:25.959 --> 00:21:31.246
not heard about. What year was that,
sir? I was 51 when we, when we

00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:35.526
brought the first players into the
conference,

00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:39.717
another satellite Texas tech was in
our conference. The border conference

00:21:39.750 --> 00:21:44.585
takes his take at Lubbock. We never
played them because they would not

00:21:44.618 --> 00:21:49.666
allow our black players to play there.
So we said, all right, if our black

00:21:49.699 --> 00:21:53.555
players can't play, we're not gonna
play. So, although we were in the same

00:21:53.588 --> 00:21:58.266
conference four or five years, we
never did play. It took a long time to

00:21:58.299 --> 00:22:03.416
break that, that bury her down. Now
you're looking and see the Alabama

00:22:03.449 --> 00:22:08.156
Mississippi teams with, with five
starters in basketball. This is all

00:22:08.189 --> 00:22:12.617
black. This is amazing. That's
interesting because it reminds me that I

00:22:12.650 --> 00:22:17.335
just did an interview with Calvin Good
and he talked about um going to

00:22:17.368 --> 00:22:21.726
Carver High School, which was Black
High School, but then he was able to

00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:27.127
go to Phoenix College and to a su in
the forties. Uh so a su was always

00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:34.206
open to black students. No, that's not
quite true. I'm ashamed to admit it

00:22:34.239 --> 00:22:37.397
now. But there was, this was very Jim
Crow back in the thirties and early

00:22:37.430 --> 00:22:42.006
forties. They cannot live on campus.
Do you know that they cannot eat in

00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:47.335
the dining hall? They couldn't get
their hair cut in a barbershop.

00:22:47.368 --> 00:22:51.367
They couldn't go to the school dances.

00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:55.456
We got along. All right. But, and I
think I'm ashamed that we never

00:22:55.489 --> 00:22:59.117
thought anything about it. It's just
the way it was, but they did get to

00:22:59.150 --> 00:23:04.166
go to class. Oh, yeah. Well, that's
something they got to pay their fees

00:23:04.199 --> 00:23:09.617
and all like everybody else, but
shameful situation. But we did break out

00:23:09.650 --> 00:23:13.325
of that very shortly thereafter. One
of the first schools to do so. So

00:23:13.358 --> 00:23:16.545
when did that start changing?

00:23:16.578 --> 00:23:21.847
Oh, mid f far ahead of the University
of Arizona, by the way, they, we had

00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:26.785
, had black athletes playing long
before they did.

00:23:26.818 --> 00:23:30.597
So the black athletes were, they, they
were allowed to eat on campus and,

00:23:30.630 --> 00:23:37.137
and do all the other things. When we
took black athletes on a trip

00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:41.357
for a football game, they had to go
stay with another family with a black

00:23:41.390 --> 00:23:46.976
family and eat it separately in Texas.
Most of the other teams were in

00:23:47.009 --> 00:23:50.967
Texas at that time.

00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:59.000
No, it was, it was quite a battle, a
different era. Um, well, so did you

00:23:59.900 --> 00:24:03.325
ever teach on campus or were you
always just working on the publication I

00:24:03.358 --> 00:24:07.315
never taught. No,

00:24:07.348 --> 00:24:11.857
I guess I wasn't smart enough. I
didn't have a degree that, but I did come

00:24:11.890 --> 00:24:17.065
back and get a master's in business,
which I never used. But, uh, where

00:24:17.098 --> 00:24:21.387
did you do that? 61?

00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:26.006
I'm sort of like, like Rudy Lavi who
was a long time director of athletics

00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:33.446
here. He said I was never out of work
long enough to, to get a doctorate.

00:24:33.479 --> 00:24:37.857
Um Well, tell me, where were you uh
when the university uh changed its

00:24:37.890 --> 00:24:41.877
name when it changed its name to a
university? Where were you? This is my

00:24:41.910 --> 00:24:46.486
last year at the Republic in 58. And
uh I was over here all the time. I

00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:51.597
felt like I was on campus and I was
here for the big party that they had

00:24:51.630 --> 00:24:56.736
on election night and all that there
was a, you may know that story how

00:24:56.769 --> 00:25:00.726
they all get it out in front of the
union and uh the teletypes were going

00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:08.156
giving momentary results and something
happened. The up I moved and uh

00:25:08.189 --> 00:25:12.426
sent out some wrong information and
showed us behind 2 to 1. And this went

00:25:12.459 --> 00:25:16.847
on for 45 minutes and everybody was in
shock. I thought Greedy Gage was

00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:19.956
gonna die right in the spot. And then
they got a straightened out and we

00:25:19.989 --> 00:25:25.706
were ahead again and we wound up ahead
2 to 1. And you've probably seen

00:25:25.739 --> 00:25:29.085
the famous picture of him. Standing on
the balcony of the union with his

00:25:29.118 --> 00:25:35.295
arms out like this. And we won. Now,
have you worked on that campaign or?

00:25:35.328 --> 00:25:40.916
Yes, because you work for the news. We
all worked. I was alumnus. Uh I was

00:25:40.949 --> 00:25:45.696
also writing by the way for the uh
alumni magazine at the same, same time.

00:25:45.729 --> 00:25:49.147
So, uh we did everything and I was
also trying to sell magazine articles

00:25:49.180 --> 00:25:56.065
, anything to put food on the table.
So it wasn't a conflict of interest

00:25:56.098 --> 00:25:59.597
for you to be working for the Arizona
Republican campaigning for the

00:25:59.630 --> 00:26:01.867
university.

00:26:01.900 --> 00:26:08.746
Well, if it was so be it, that's, uh
we had these bumper stickers

00:26:08.779 --> 00:26:13.127
200 and we count that every morning on
cars to see how we were doing. It

00:26:13.160 --> 00:26:17.736
was sort of like a straw poll

00:26:17.769 --> 00:26:23.877
and we covered every county or any.
Um, we wanted every county I should

00:26:23.910 --> 00:26:28.956
say except po, of course we wouldn't.
And I believe Santa Cruz and the

00:26:28.989 --> 00:26:35.815
coaches might have, have gone against
us too, but it was a great victory.

00:26:35.848 --> 00:26:39.897
How did that change things around
here? Oh, it changed things a great

00:26:39.930 --> 00:26:46.026
deal though. Gave us a new
perspective, new confidence.

00:26:46.059 --> 00:26:49.446
We opened up a new program as a new,

00:26:49.479 --> 00:26:53.456
you see, the, the first four colleges
were created about that time and,

00:26:53.489 --> 00:26:59.545
and those were the seeds which
sprouted into so many other things

00:26:59.578 --> 00:27:03.696
center for solid state physics, for
example, in the, the great things

00:27:03.729 --> 00:27:08.726
we've done in the, in the arts and all
the rest.

00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:14.186
Oh, it was very important because it,
uh I told in the first place it

00:27:14.219 --> 00:27:18.295
announced that the public was for us
and we never really felt that way

00:27:18.328 --> 00:27:23.016
before. We were always the underdog,

00:27:23.049 --> 00:27:29.795
an underdog complex. Still. Do I
think, don't you think so? Oh, always

00:27:29.828 --> 00:27:34.565
trying to beat the U of A in some way
or other. I have been quite

00:27:34.598 --> 00:27:37.756
successful in doing that.

00:27:37.789 --> 00:27:44.597
Tell me again about how you came to
return back to work for a su

00:27:44.630 --> 00:27:50.456
Well, uh as I mentioned, Gilbert Katie
and, and the president wanted to

00:27:50.489 --> 00:27:55.446
set up this bureau to standardize
publications. Each little college and

00:27:55.479 --> 00:28:00.526
department were doing their own at
that time. So we set up shop in the old

00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:08.406
uh president's old Matthews cottage,
which is now the nursing school and

00:28:08.439 --> 00:28:14.176
it was more or less like an ad agency.
We had a, an editor to fill that,

00:28:14.209 --> 00:28:19.387
that position. We had an art director.
We had a, a director of uh

00:28:19.420 --> 00:28:23.967
relations with the printers and the,
and the other opera. It worked very

00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:29.357
well. And uh I think we did a good job
during that time. It was an

00:28:29.390 --> 00:28:33.006
interesting thing to start from
scratch that and to build it. And what

00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:37.436
year was it that you did that? 59

00:28:37.469 --> 00:28:43.516
I came here and um October 1st of
October, I guess it was and Great Gage

00:28:43.549 --> 00:28:47.467
died at the end of December of that
year.

00:28:47.500 --> 00:28:50.666
I don't know. If you know that story
or not. But he was, uh, the night

00:28:50.699 --> 00:28:56.206
before he had done going over the
plans for the new auditorium.

00:28:56.239 --> 00:29:01.936
And, uh, I promised Kay, his wife to
take her Christmas shopping. He came

00:29:01.969 --> 00:29:06.506
back and, uh, so he didn't feel very
good. He thought he'd go to bed and

00:29:06.539 --> 00:29:10.847
by morning he was dead.

00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.075
So that was one of the reasons they
named the auditorium after it was this

00:29:14.108 --> 00:29:18.016
great interest he had in, uh, in
building it. He had convinced Frank Lloyd

00:29:18.049 --> 00:29:24.476
Wright to, uh, to design it. Uh, if
you knew Frank Lloyd Wright, he, he

00:29:24.509 --> 00:29:30.166
didn't do anything that he wasn't well
paid for, but he, he liked Grady

00:29:30.199 --> 00:29:34.335
and he, uh, he came home and told his
wife once, he said he's an

00:29:34.368 --> 00:29:40.456
interesting gentleman, but he has no
money. But he decided to, to revise

00:29:40.489 --> 00:29:44.825
the plan. He had, had drawn up for a
big auditorium in Baghdad. Did you

00:29:44.858 --> 00:29:50.785
know about that? And, uh,

00:29:50.818 --> 00:29:56.835
he died, 03 or four months after Grady
did

00:29:56.868 --> 00:30:01.617
so neither one of them ever got to see
their auditorium. But, uh, what was

00:30:01.650 --> 00:30:04.666
that like when, when the president of
the university died? So suddenly,

00:30:04.699 --> 00:30:09.206
what was that like on campus

00:30:09.239 --> 00:30:14.706
Gage had been present for 26.5 years
and nobody could remember when he

00:30:14.739 --> 00:30:18.347
wasn't president. It was kind of like
FDR, you know, I thought he was

00:30:18.380 --> 00:30:24.926
perpetual president of the United
States. Uh

00:30:24.959 --> 00:30:29.805
Doctor HD Richardson took over as, as,
as an interim president and served

00:30:29.838 --> 00:30:35.956
for six months until, until Homer
Durham came on campus.

00:30:35.989 --> 00:30:39.736
And we've always said that we always
had the right president for the

00:30:39.769 --> 00:30:46.016
period that we had Matthews helped to
build up. He was here 30 years,

00:30:46.049 --> 00:30:51.887
build the cap the framework for the
college and uh great am built the

00:30:51.920 --> 00:30:55.946
framework for the university and then
he died. And then

00:30:55.979 --> 00:30:59.467
Doctor Durham came in with those
foundations and build on those. And he

00:30:59.500 --> 00:31:04.226
was exactly the man for the job. A
tremendous president. Tell me a little

00:31:04.259 --> 00:31:08.226
more about him. What was he like?
Well, I was very close to Homer Durham

00:31:08.259 --> 00:31:10.805
and uh

00:31:10.838 --> 00:31:14.555
he was a renaissance man. He knew more
about more things than anybody I've

00:31:14.588 --> 00:31:18.956
ever known. He knew more medicine than
most doctors do, more law than most

00:31:18.989 --> 00:31:25.117
lawyers do. And the his son George,
they used to say when they went on on

00:31:25.150 --> 00:31:32.217
vacation, it was like a continuing
lecture all the way for the kids.

00:31:32.250 --> 00:31:37.285
And he knew he knew history. He knew
just about everything there was to

00:31:37.318 --> 00:31:42.666
know. Uh And uh he brought

00:31:42.699 --> 00:31:47.226
good science teachers here. He brought
historians and political. He was a

00:31:47.259 --> 00:31:52.467
political scientist himself, never got
a masters. By the way, he went from

00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:56.246
Bachelor's doctorate at UCL A.

00:31:56.279 --> 00:32:00.416
He was Mormon and later became one of
the high officers in the Mormon

00:32:00.449 --> 00:32:08.449
church. After his, after leaving here,
he was here nine years from 60 to

00:32:09.130 --> 00:32:11.137
69.

00:32:11.170 --> 00:32:16.137
And the time he left we were at a
university,

00:32:16.170 --> 00:32:21.887
in fact, as well as a name, which is
a, so we can always be grateful to

00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:27.127
him for that.

00:32:27.160 --> 00:32:31.147
Can you put a note in here? I didn't
ask you about this. About the flight

00:32:31.180 --> 00:32:35.597
from Earth? Oh, flight from Earth? Oh,
that's one of my favorite stories.

00:32:35.630 --> 00:32:40.217
Have you heard that one? June? No, I
haven't heard that one to show you

00:32:40.250 --> 00:32:44.565
what kind of a place this was in the,
in the early fifties. Uh, I wouldn't

00:32:44.598 --> 00:32:50.506
think of doing such a thing now. But g
and, and Jim Crisman who was alumni

00:32:50.539 --> 00:32:52.627
secretary

00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:58.486
and Kinzel and a couple of other
people decided to play a trick on the

00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:02.535
library and Harold Bachelor because
he, he was trying to build uh an art

00:33:02.568 --> 00:33:08.367
collection. He was a man who started
our very fine art collection and, uh

00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:16.400
, he was getting gifts of art from,
from here and there. And, uh, one day

00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:22.516
these guys got together and they went
down to Marlow Keith Welding class

00:33:22.549 --> 00:33:28.266
in the industrial arts section. They
had a metal pole and they'd uh,

00:33:28.299 --> 00:33:31.416
practice welding these little pieces
on the different kinds of metal and

00:33:31.449 --> 00:33:35.825
all that. And, uh, it's kind of like a
tree. The welding exercise is what

00:33:35.858 --> 00:33:39.575
it was. So they said this looks like
like something. So they took it and

00:33:39.608 --> 00:33:47.608
they, they mounted on a oak base and
got a, um, uh, plaque

00:33:48.380 --> 00:33:54.436
to put on and they called it Flight
from Earth by low Keith Melo Keith.

00:33:54.469 --> 00:34:01.897
And they, they said to Harold Bachelor
certified letter from New York that

00:34:01.930 --> 00:34:09.186
the uh the New York Museum of Modern
Art went to, to present this, this

00:34:09.219 --> 00:34:13.856
piece of art because they heard we
were trying to start a collection and

00:34:13.889 --> 00:34:18.256
Baxter was thrilled to death about
this. And uh, so it arrived with a

00:34:18.289 --> 00:34:24.287
guard and all that these guys spend
all kinds of time working on this

00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:29.566
elaborate hoax and they brought it in
and, and uh, the Bachelor was so

00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:32.566
thrilled with it that he put it in the
place of honor, right inside the

00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:38.155
door of the, uh, it was the old
library at that time, Matthew's library.

00:34:38.188 --> 00:34:43.365
And uh, everybody got a good chuckle
after it about it. And shortly

00:34:43.398 --> 00:34:47.767
thereafter, Walter Benson, who was
president of the Board of Regents,

00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:53.374
president of Valley Bank and an art
collector and art expert,

00:34:53.407 --> 00:34:55.787
some renown

00:34:55.820 --> 00:35:00.227
came over to Gage's office and said
he'd like to see the new collection we

00:35:00.260 --> 00:35:04.896
were starting over here. What game
would you got a little excited to get

00:35:04.929 --> 00:35:08.336
on the phone to Chris? He says, get
down there right now, get that thing

00:35:08.369 --> 00:35:12.146
out of there jokes over.

00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:16.856
So K Chrisman went into Bachelor's
office and told him what had happened.

00:35:16.889 --> 00:35:20.856
Bachelor would not believe him. He
says, I know art when I see it and

00:35:20.889 --> 00:35:25.327
this is a piece of modern art and it's
very good and they were arguing

00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:31.217
about it. When, when Cambridge and
Benson came in

00:35:31.250 --> 00:35:38.046
and Benson, when he was told the
story, uh, Gamage had to dress up. He

00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:41.316
said, you know, I rather liked it.

00:35:41.349 --> 00:35:48.796
Ok. A flight from earth disappeared
for 30 years. I saw it in Payson at a

00:35:48.829 --> 00:35:52.736
bachelor's home. He had a summer home
up there. He had kept that thing

00:35:52.769 --> 00:35:56.767
hidden all the time. But when he moved
up there, he put it in his back

00:35:56.800 --> 00:36:03.986
garden is sort of a remembrance piece
and it's probably still there. I was

00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:09.106
gonna ask you where it ended up. I
was, I was gonna ask you if Benson was

00:36:09.139 --> 00:36:13.686
fooled. He walked in before somebody
told him, what did he think of it

00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:18.155
before? Well, I think he explained to
him right away.

00:36:18.188 --> 00:36:22.445
You mentioned here something about um
Ellis and, and Morrell too. Were

00:36:22.478 --> 00:36:26.467
they involved? I'm just mentioning
some of the people that were involved

00:36:26.500 --> 00:36:31.046
in everything at that time. Uh They
know that story too. I don't know

00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:35.615
whether everybody knew about that or
not, but uh I've used it in a couple

00:36:35.648 --> 00:36:41.006
of books. I used it in the one on, on
G and might have been in one of the

00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:45.376
others. I've forgotten which. But uh
and I thought they pulled several

00:36:45.409 --> 00:36:50.345
stunts like that. They were going to
have a school for army undertakers

00:36:50.378 --> 00:36:54.186
here and they got Katie all worked up
about that. They kept sending

00:36:54.219 --> 00:36:58.967
telegrams from supposedly from the
army that they were going to open

00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:05.606
operation formaldehyde, they call it.

00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:09.425
So it sounds like Grady g, had a lot
of sense of humor. Yeah. And not

00:37:09.458 --> 00:37:15.396
surprising because he was a, a pretty
serious kind of guy. I've not heard

00:37:15.429 --> 00:37:19.095
that side of him before

00:37:19.128 --> 00:37:24.345
but he went in for more elaborate. All
these things took weeks to put

00:37:24.378 --> 00:37:30.296
together and lots of people.

00:37:30.329 --> 00:37:34.126
Well, you've got down here something
about the medical school in law

00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:37.936
school. Oh, yes, I have those.

00:37:37.969 --> 00:37:44.327
Well, after the uh the name changed
took place where

00:37:44.360 --> 00:37:51.046
our ambitions ran wild, of course. And
uh Dr Gamage got

00:37:51.079 --> 00:37:57.526
funding for a two year medical school
here from a man named and he

00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:04.767
announced the regs that he wanted to
start this school. And um Dr Harville

00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:08.865
at the University of Arizona went into
panic. He said, no, no, no, we

00:38:08.898 --> 00:38:11.967
don't need a medical school here. At
that time. We were training our, our

00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:19.517
doctors with wii which is a Western
compact for, for training physicians.

00:38:19.550 --> 00:38:23.956
They took all the states that did not
have medical schools and, and help

00:38:23.989 --> 00:38:27.166
to fund this thing. And I had to go to
University of Utah, University of

00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:30.046
New Mexico, various other places.

00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:34.425
But we went ahead with it as far as we
could. And then of course, Harve

00:38:34.458 --> 00:38:40.756
immediately rounded up his troops and
his big wheels here and they said

00:38:40.789 --> 00:38:46.827
going to have one, but it's going to
be in Tucson and they got us

00:38:46.860 --> 00:38:52.115
a man, uh a doctor from the University
of Alabama who was, was to head the

00:38:52.148 --> 00:38:54.546
uh the committee

00:38:54.579 --> 00:38:59.405
to search out the best location for
it. And uh everybody knew when he was

00:38:59.438 --> 00:39:04.345
picked that he was, he was picked by
the Universities of Arizona people.

00:39:04.378 --> 00:39:10.376
And of course, at that time, their
physical science schooling was ahead of

00:39:10.409 --> 00:39:15.186
ours considerably as it turned out, it
didn't make that much difference.

00:39:15.219 --> 00:39:18.026
Medical school is a separate
institution and they don't pay much

00:39:18.059 --> 00:39:20.517
attention to

00:39:20.550 --> 00:39:25.106
undergraduate science programs at the
university. It probably should have

00:39:25.139 --> 00:39:30.236
been here even if it were a University
of Arizona Control because this is

00:39:30.269 --> 00:39:34.595
most medical schools are in the big
cities. They've always had trouble in

00:39:34.628 --> 00:39:40.296
Tucson getting enough variety of
patients.

00:39:40.329 --> 00:39:46.425
And the so we lost out in that battle,
but sort of as a consolation prize

00:39:46.458 --> 00:39:51.307
, we got the law school started and
that was Durham's pride and joy he

00:39:51.340 --> 00:39:55.956
brought in Willard Pedrick from
Northwestern as the first dean and he was

00:39:55.989 --> 00:40:00.506
great. He was uh everybody loved p as
they called him and was a good law

00:40:00.539 --> 00:40:05.405
school from the beginning. He
recruited a bunch of people that several of

00:40:05.438 --> 00:40:09.115
them had been nearing retirement in
other schools. And it was said that

00:40:09.148 --> 00:40:13.876
our law school at the beginning was
better than the, it's been a battle

00:40:13.909 --> 00:40:18.546
ever since as to who's, who's the
best. But uh

00:40:18.579 --> 00:40:22.856
that's the story of the medical school
and the law school. It's not a

00:40:22.889 --> 00:40:26.155
trade offer.

00:40:26.188 --> 00:40:29.675
What about the, the period during the
sixties you were here during that

00:40:29.708 --> 00:40:35.646
kind of time of unrest? Oh, yeah, that
was

00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:43.679
June. When did you come? 64? 64? I
was, well under way at that time. Um,

00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:49.186
they had a war feeling was, was great.
Everybody, nobody was happy with

00:40:49.219 --> 00:40:54.876
the Vietnam war. But those of us that
were a little more patriotic thought

00:40:54.909 --> 00:40:59.256
we had to stick with the, the
president and the army while they were there.

00:40:59.289 --> 00:41:07.289
But these kids were, they wanted to,
to get out of it. They want to

00:41:08.829 --> 00:41:16.365
have demonstrations and I never forget
a fellow's name of Chad Smith. He

00:41:16.398 --> 00:41:19.577
was the leader of the, some of the
dissidents and they, they build a

00:41:19.610 --> 00:41:23.635
little camp in front of the
administration building and slept there for

00:41:23.668 --> 00:41:29.046
several weeks and they took over a
portion of the old main and took their

00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:35.595
OTC blocked that entrance and all
that. So we had very, very slight

00:41:35.628 --> 00:41:40.106
demonstrations compared with some of
them were actually bloody and many

00:41:40.139 --> 00:41:46.967
other universities. But we had them,
they were there and there's always

00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.106
kids who want to go out and march no
matter, someone didn't know what they

00:41:50.139 --> 00:41:55.037
were, were marching for at that
particular time. But it was fun to go down

00:41:55.070 --> 00:42:02.186
Mill Avenue and have a big march
against something.

00:42:02.219 --> 00:42:06.175
Yeah. In your position. And with the
publications you didn't really, did

00:42:06.208 --> 00:42:09.166
you still work with the student paper
and things like that. No, I had

00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:14.126
nothing to do with that. Uh, along the
last I, I started doing more and

00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:18.836
more work in public relations. We put
together a couple of films and I

00:42:18.869 --> 00:42:23.376
would take them around and show them
around the States,

00:42:23.409 --> 00:42:28.606
make talks, that sort of thing. So,
more and more of that work, uh, went

00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:32.997
to other people and I was, I was, I
guess the first director of

00:42:33.030 --> 00:42:35.037
Development.

00:42:35.070 --> 00:42:40.925
Uh but that was a sort of a trial
basis and I didn't, I didn't last very

00:42:40.958 --> 00:42:43.345
long with that.

00:42:43.378 --> 00:42:47.206
That's a very tal uh specialized
field. And I've never had any experience

00:42:47.239 --> 00:42:53.115
in it and we soon saw that this wasn't
for me. So I got out of that. When

00:42:53.148 --> 00:42:55.717
was that?

00:42:55.750 --> 00:43:03.595
Oh, Durham did that. So that had to be
in the late sixties.

00:43:03.628 --> 00:43:10.155
So, when did Durham, how long was
Durham here from 60 to 69? And why did

00:43:10.188 --> 00:43:16.327
he leave? He got an appointment as the
Chancellor of Higher Education for

00:43:16.360 --> 00:43:20.767
the State of Utah, which made him the
boss of all the universities, all

00:43:20.800 --> 00:43:26.155
the state universities. And he was uh
rather unhappy at that time anyway,

00:43:26.188 --> 00:43:32.557
he, he'd been trying to start a West
Valley campus long before. As U West

00:43:32.590 --> 00:43:38.816
was ever thought of it was a Goodyear
company had uh offered land in uh

00:43:38.849 --> 00:43:44.206
Litchfield Park. And we were, we went
so far as to list it in the catalog

00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:51.006
one year with the Dean, Richard
Landini as the dean. That's a collector's

00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:55.376
item now because it never was such a
thing. But, uh, the legislature

00:43:55.409 --> 00:43:59.807
wouldn't, wouldn't buy it. And this is
one place where, where Durham fell

00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:06.787
down. He, he tried to lecture to the
legislature and they didn't care for

00:44:06.820 --> 00:44:11.416
that a bit. He told somebody one time
you got to play the legislature like

00:44:11.449 --> 00:44:15.695
a fine violin. He said that word got
back to some of the legislative

00:44:15.728 --> 00:44:18.827
leaders.

00:44:18.860 --> 00:44:23.195
That seems kind of strange that you
list a whole university section in a

00:44:23.228 --> 00:44:26.727
dean that didn't exist in the catalog.
How did that happen? I didn't list

00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:30.276
the whole se we just listed the
officers of the, of the university. And

00:44:30.309 --> 00:44:34.135
that was, that was far as it got.

00:44:34.168 --> 00:44:42.168
It was what, 1012 years later before
Su West was born.

00:44:43.559 --> 00:44:47.736
Um Well, tell me a little bit more
about how your career progressed. So

00:44:47.769 --> 00:44:52.106
you took a little detour to be the
head of development, then you came back

00:44:52.139 --> 00:44:59.166
or that I continue to work with
publications during that time. And, uh and

00:44:59.199 --> 00:45:07.199
later on when I guess the last two
years of, of my tenure here, I worked

00:45:09.958 --> 00:45:13.296
uh what they call it, director of, of
community relations. That that was

00:45:13.329 --> 00:45:18.865
the term we used and I was attending
all the council meetings and the club

00:45:18.898 --> 00:45:22.896
meetings and getting everybody to work
with the university. There's always

00:45:22.929 --> 00:45:28.396
a sort of a friction between town and
g as you're probably aware and, uh,

00:45:28.429 --> 00:45:32.566
I was supposed to help smooth that
over a little bit. I enjoyed that part

00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:36.945
of it and still doing other things at
the same time. I don't think I ever

00:45:36.978 --> 00:45:42.615
had a period when I wasn't in two jobs
upon time around here.

00:45:42.648 --> 00:45:46.345
So, you stayed ahead of publications
then? Was that, what was your title,

00:45:46.378 --> 00:45:51.287
I guess? Well, they, they broke it up
about that time and I was, I was

00:45:51.320 --> 00:45:55.155
sort of up in the air for that period
of time. I was, I was helping down

00:45:55.188 --> 00:46:00.916
there with the, uh, split it up and it
wasn't the kind of organization we

00:46:00.949 --> 00:46:06.086
had had before. It was kind of an
unhappy time for all of us. You remember

00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:10.626
how June was there? Tell me a little
bit about how it, how it changed and

00:46:10.659 --> 00:46:16.767
grew from the time you came and took
it over when Baby Gage hired you.

00:46:16.800 --> 00:46:20.206
Well, at first we about all we, we
worked with the catalog, we always with

00:46:20.239 --> 00:46:27.077
the catalog that was always the big
one and uh annual directory, which has

00:46:27.110 --> 00:46:30.486
got to be quite a phone book now.

00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:37.077
And we did, uh, did publications for
each of the colleges. We, uh we did

00:46:37.110 --> 00:46:42.977
that sort of thing when we started
then when we graduated in tomorrow,

00:46:43.010 --> 00:46:49.166
sophisticated things we were doing
during journals for the uh the Meteoric

00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:55.497
Society which was on campus and for
various other scientific and uh

00:46:55.530 --> 00:46:59.747
esoteric operations that, that had
their own journals, their own, their

00:46:59.780 --> 00:47:03.186
own publications. It was quite an
education. I learned a lot about a lot

00:47:03.219 --> 00:47:07.816
of things that way and I learned to
know most of the people that were in

00:47:07.849 --> 00:47:13.276
charge of things, which was important.
I talk to people now who were at

00:47:13.309 --> 00:47:16.546
the university at that time. They,
they knew hardly anybody outside their

00:47:16.579 --> 00:47:18.807
own department

00:47:18.840 --> 00:47:25.376
and I guess this is, is rather a
common thing in universities. Uh, but I

00:47:25.409 --> 00:47:28.586
got to work with the dean of this and
the director of that and the vice

00:47:28.619 --> 00:47:35.276
president of the other and I enjoyed
that part of it.

00:47:35.309 --> 00:47:39.865
I might add one thing. I, I think it
was very big for me. I was with the

00:47:39.898 --> 00:47:46.175
Air Force, obviously, I was head of
the Air Force Academy program in

00:47:46.208 --> 00:47:51.595
Arizona. We had 15 officers involved
calling on high schools and working

00:47:51.628 --> 00:47:56.666
with congressmen and parents and all
that. And that was a huge job for

00:47:56.699 --> 00:48:00.287
about 1617 years. I was carrying that
on while I was doing all this other

00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:05.506
stuff. So that was sort of a part time
job or, well, there was no money

00:48:05.539 --> 00:48:11.807
involved. It was a reserve activity,
but the money came later. Uh once you

00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:16.606
got your 20 years in and you were
qualified for uh for retirement pay,

00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:20.767
which I, I've been collecting for a
number of years. So we knew that was

00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:23.865
in the, in the future. Sometimes we
live long enough. But uh at that time

00:48:23.898 --> 00:48:27.546
, there was no money involved.

00:48:27.579 --> 00:48:31.896
So, what made you stay in the Air
Force Reserve all those years? Well, one

00:48:31.929 --> 00:48:35.336
thing I got that assignment was the
Academy, which was fascinating. We got

00:48:35.369 --> 00:48:40.057
to go up there once or twice every
year and, uh, I still go up there for

00:48:40.090 --> 00:48:46.356
annual conferences. And, uh, they were
just, just building the Academy at

00:48:46.389 --> 00:48:51.267
that time. Where was that Colorado
Springs?

00:48:51.300 --> 00:48:56.115
So, I was really in on the ground
floor of that operation

00:48:56.148 --> 00:49:00.977
and then I was doing a lot of writing
as June knows, that's what I started

00:49:01.010 --> 00:49:08.586
doing the books that I have done
since. And I wonder sometimes how I was

00:49:08.619 --> 00:49:12.467
able to fit all those things in. I
can't do that now,

00:49:12.500 --> 00:49:15.595
don't have the energy. Why don't you
tell me a little bit about some of

00:49:15.628 --> 00:49:18.997
the writing that you've done?

00:49:19.030 --> 00:49:23.436
Well, I've,

00:49:23.469 --> 00:49:27.436
I've been involved, I guess you'd say
in 20 books on Arizona history and

00:49:27.469 --> 00:49:32.486
biography. 16 of them, I think I've
done myself and the other four were an

00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:40.519
editorial capacity or co-author or
something of the sort. But, uh, that's

00:49:40.539 --> 00:49:47.296
been the most interesting part of, I
still do that. Uh, I, I didn't, I was

00:49:47.329 --> 00:49:52.227
, I guess called the unofficial
historian of a SU I've, I've written most

00:49:52.260 --> 00:49:59.086
of the books and articles have been
done about a SU history. I've done two

00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:02.646
books on the Goldwater family and one
on the Babbitt family and, uh on

00:50:02.679 --> 00:50:08.456
some of the other several of the big
ranching families in the state. I did

00:50:08.489 --> 00:50:14.267
the Sun Devils, which is the history
of U football. Uh

00:50:14.300 --> 00:50:18.675
So these things, each book usually
took about two years right now. We're,

00:50:18.708 --> 00:50:23.546
we're completing the history of the SU
foundation

00:50:23.579 --> 00:50:26.655
and that's been in the mail for a long
time. Did you do something with

00:50:26.688 --> 00:50:31.986
John Rhodes? I did a book with John
Rhodes.

00:50:32.019 --> 00:50:36.086
I used to produce books and company.
We had John Rose on, I remember you

00:50:36.119 --> 00:50:41.566
saying that we shouldn't interview
you, we should interview you got the

00:50:41.599 --> 00:50:44.905
John is still

00:50:44.938 --> 00:50:48.836
a good friend. We get together quite
often.

00:50:48.869 --> 00:50:53.077
Um Well, tell me about some of your
favorite books. How did you pick your

00:50:53.110 --> 00:50:57.695
topic? So how did you decide what to
write up? Well, like the football

00:50:57.728 --> 00:51:02.046
book, of course, was easy because I'd
always, I'd covered football for so

00:51:02.079 --> 00:51:04.816
many years and

00:51:04.849 --> 00:51:09.106
most of it first hand the records were
available for things that I did not

00:51:09.139 --> 00:51:17.139
know. And uh with G uh I was asked to
do that by the uh by the university.

00:51:18.079 --> 00:51:23.606
Mrs Cambridge had and asked me to, to
be the author. I want to do a book

00:51:23.639 --> 00:51:29.307
on, on radio and that was a wonderful
project. I found out more about him.

00:51:29.340 --> 00:51:33.905
Did you know that he married his high
school English teacher?

00:51:33.938 --> 00:51:41.126
His first marriage was to was to her.
And uh we have a dormitory named

00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:43.876
after her

00:51:43.909 --> 00:51:50.896
Dixie D's Gamage Hall where that name
came from. Interestingly enough,

00:51:50.929 --> 00:51:55.477
Brady Junior told me one time and he
was walking with his mother down that

00:51:55.510 --> 00:51:59.896
street after his father died and he
saw that sign Dixie Gammage Hall and

00:51:59.929 --> 00:52:05.635
he said, who was Dixie Gamy? I never
mentioned that to him. And I guess

00:52:05.668 --> 00:52:10.307
she finally explained at that time,
but that was a closed door as far as

00:52:10.340 --> 00:52:13.526
Grady was concerned.

00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:16.865
How do you work when you write a book
like that? Um, but, well, with

00:52:16.898 --> 00:52:22.856
someone that's still alive,
particularly, how do you go about doing that?

00:52:22.889 --> 00:52:27.385
Interviewing mostly that person and
everybody who is close to him to get

00:52:27.418 --> 00:52:32.747
as many views as you can. The computer
has been an awfully big help. You

00:52:32.780 --> 00:52:39.166
can access all kinds of things that
you couldn't do before and uh store

00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:41.316
material

00:52:41.349 --> 00:52:45.327
interestingly because I swear I'd
never use the darn thing. I was, I'd use

00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:49.845
a typewriter for about 2 million
words. I figured on time on the

00:52:49.878 --> 00:52:57.175
typewriter. I've probably got that
money on the computer now. But, uh, you

00:52:57.208 --> 00:53:04.416
get to find out things. Well,
governors and senators, congressmen

00:53:04.449 --> 00:53:09.066
that they wouldn't talk about to
anybody else, which is kind of fun.

00:53:09.099 --> 00:53:12.095
 Personal material.

00:53:12.128 --> 00:53:16.807
Nobody else would have reason to ask
about.

00:53:16.840 --> 00:53:20.046
Had some of those things,

00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:25.146
the Rhodes book, for example. And, uh,

00:53:25.179 --> 00:53:30.256
and I have a book to go Water book.
So, when New York on the Goldwater

00:53:30.289 --> 00:53:35.296
book, did you spend a lot of time with
Barry Goldwater? Quite a bit. Uh I

00:53:35.329 --> 00:53:40.006
spent probably more time with his
family than I did with him. He was not

00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:42.217
that accessible.

00:53:42.250 --> 00:53:46.816
This was just before he ran for
president that I did the first one and

00:53:46.849 --> 00:53:49.506
then later on,

00:53:49.539 --> 00:53:55.445
uh there's one on the family, the, the
Waters of Arizona, which is,

00:53:55.478 --> 00:53:58.486
has been used quite a bit around the
state out of print now, unfortunately

00:53:58.519 --> 00:54:03.066
, but that's a pretty good book.

00:54:03.099 --> 00:54:05.796
You wrote a book about him before he
ran for president. It wouldn't seem

00:54:05.829 --> 00:54:08.896
like he would have been particularly
worth writing a book about at that

00:54:08.929 --> 00:54:16.865
point. Well, this was because uh we
read, um who was it, one of the big

00:54:16.898 --> 00:54:20.865
publishers in New York, uh saw that
this was a comer and they wanted to,

00:54:20.898 --> 00:54:25.236
wanted to get a book out on the stands
about a paperback before anybody

00:54:25.269 --> 00:54:27.796
else did.

00:54:27.829 --> 00:54:32.456
So, a young fellow named Rob Rob Wood
and I, he was in charge of the, uh

00:54:32.489 --> 00:54:37.967
he was a political editor for, for a P
and Phoenix. So we did it together

00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:42.747
and put together in about four months.
A pretty sloppy job. But uh it was

00:54:42.780 --> 00:54:46.186
the first book that came out on
Goldwater since then. There's probably

00:54:46.219 --> 00:54:54.219
been 30. Do you read them all? I read
most of them. Very interesting. Man.

00:54:54.699 --> 00:54:57.526
Did your early book have things though
that, I mean, that was a whole

00:54:57.559 --> 00:55:04.175
different part of his life before he
got so well known. Is, was it more in

00:55:04.208 --> 00:55:08.626
depth about his early life then, or
how would you describe it? There was

00:55:08.659 --> 00:55:12.506
so much interest in him then because
he was,

00:55:12.539 --> 00:55:20.146
he was trying to make conservatism uh
viable again. And, uh was quite an

00:55:20.179 --> 00:55:25.756
army was, was forming behind him. You
might say up to that time to say you

00:55:25.789 --> 00:55:30.787
were conservative was practically to
say you were an old, old fashioned

00:55:30.820 --> 00:55:35.296
footy day. But he was such a striking
figure and so talented in so many

00:55:35.329 --> 00:55:42.486
areas. You know, he was a, he, he's a
member of the, the Royal

00:55:42.519 --> 00:55:47.276
British Photographic Society. I think
that's the name. He's a leading ham

00:55:47.309 --> 00:55:55.309
radio operator in the world Royal
Photographic. Is that what it was uh uh

00:55:55.438 --> 00:55:58.365
has books. Uh

00:55:58.398 --> 00:56:03.486
the book, The Conscience of
Conservatives sold over 4 million copies and

00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:09.276
certainly he didn't write much of it,
but it was his ideas.

00:56:09.309 --> 00:56:13.615
I've written probably seven or 84
words for books that have his name on

00:56:13.648 --> 00:56:19.885
them. He asked me to do it. I took
over the operation of his Arizona

00:56:19.918 --> 00:56:26.727
Historical foundation after I retired
and did that for several years. He

00:56:26.760 --> 00:56:30.776
had started that with uh with Burt F
over at, at the headquarters in our

00:56:30.809 --> 00:56:36.655
library, a very fine collection of, of
Arizona materials over there which

00:56:36.688 --> 00:56:40.977
Barry had started. So between those
two things I did get fairly well

00:56:41.010 --> 00:56:46.655
acquainted with them, never as much as
I wanted to. But uh I flew with him

00:56:46.688 --> 00:56:52.405
a couple of times and did things with
him.

00:56:52.438 --> 00:56:55.296
What about the Babbitts? You said you
wrote a book on, I probably get to

00:56:55.329 --> 00:56:59.736
know them better than I did the Gold
Waters. At one time I knew every

00:56:59.769 --> 00:57:02.307
living Babbit.

00:57:02.340 --> 00:57:05.767
There were five brothers who had come
out here in 1886 from Cincinnati and

00:57:05.800 --> 00:57:11.626
started the Ranch of Co Bar and they
branched out into a situation where

00:57:11.659 --> 00:57:16.217
they, they owned almost all the major
businesses in Northern Arizona at

00:57:16.250 --> 00:57:23.336
one time, it was kind of fascinating
the way they did that.

00:57:23.369 --> 00:57:26.945
So the five brothers were all dead by
the time I started doing it, but

00:57:26.978 --> 00:57:31.836
their, their sons and daughters were
still

00:57:31.869 --> 00:57:38.396
very big in the field and I did get
very well acquainted with them.

00:57:38.429 --> 00:57:45.675
I remember in that book, I said
something about George Babbitt who was,

00:57:45.708 --> 00:57:51.206
who wanted to run for governor, but
he, he never made it. And I, I said,

00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:58.247
but someday I may sit in the
governor's chair and later Bruce came up to

00:57:58.280 --> 00:58:03.477
me and says, you did, you got it
right.

00:58:03.510 --> 00:58:08.876
That was kind of fun.

00:58:08.909 --> 00:58:13.206
We were speaking of the, of the book
on the Getz family and, and the Hall

00:58:13.239 --> 00:58:15.945
of Flame, which

00:58:15.978 --> 00:58:21.827
George Gates brought us a collection
of antique fire engines and equipment.

00:58:21.860 --> 00:58:27.885
Some going back into the 17 hundreds,
but they were living in Chicago and

00:58:27.918 --> 00:58:32.686
they were quite big wheels. He was the
admiral of the yachting club and uh

00:58:32.719 --> 00:58:39.876
they were big people and, um, he had
said one time he, he passed an old

00:58:39.909 --> 00:58:45.416
fire engine, it was on display
somewhere. He'd always wanted to have

00:58:45.449 --> 00:58:50.307
something like that. So his wife
bought him one for Christmas and he drove

00:58:50.340 --> 00:58:55.517
all around North Chicago and that fire
engine that day and that started,

00:58:55.550 --> 00:59:00.666
then he started looking into, to
collecting others. He was doing it until

00:59:00.699 --> 00:59:07.537
he died. Mhm. Now, how did you get
hooked up to people to do these books?

00:59:07.570 --> 00:59:12.845
I never did apply. I was always asked
incidentally, I did run on, on

00:59:12.878 --> 00:59:16.037
Elliott Roosevelt.

00:59:16.070 --> 00:59:21.425
He had heard that I did this kind of
thing, you know, he died in

00:59:21.458 --> 00:59:23.787
Scottsdale.

00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:27.365
He came to Scottsdale to die. I guess
you'd say he had lived in Phoenix

00:59:27.398 --> 00:59:33.365
earlier. He was one of the, uh, of FDR
sons looked and sounded like him.

00:59:33.398 --> 00:59:38.606
It was uncanny when I first met him. I
said, God,

00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:44.706
there were five of these kids and they
all waited all over

00:59:44.739 --> 00:59:51.376
£20 when they were born and they all
grew to be 6 ft or more even an of

00:59:51.409 --> 00:59:54.646
the daughter.

00:59:54.679 --> 00:59:58.256
But he was fascinating. He, he was one
that had five wives, you know, and

00:59:58.289 --> 01:00:02.885
, uh, I was kind of leery about
working with the man, but I got to where I

01:00:02.918 --> 01:00:07.456
really enjoyed it. Elliott. Well, it's
gotta be fascinating. He had five w

01:00:07.489 --> 01:00:13.767
five wives. It was interesting life,
all different ones.

01:00:13.800 --> 01:00:18.767
Now, the case of that book was that he
was a man who was burdened by his

01:00:18.800 --> 01:00:22.845
name. You might say he always tried to
make it. But everybody said, oh,

01:00:22.878 --> 01:00:25.787
well, you, you get everything handed
to you because you're a Roosevelt,

01:00:25.820 --> 01:00:31.506
you know, and uh he tried to escape
that and never did really make it. In

01:00:31.539 --> 01:00:34.557
fact, he died broke. Really?

01:00:34.590 --> 01:00:40.327
I enjoyed it. Um What, what, which of
the other books that you've done? Do

01:00:40.360 --> 01:00:44.816
you are the most memorable for you?

01:00:44.849 --> 01:00:49.106
Well, I enjoyed the book on the
Babbitts as I mentioned. And uh the one on

01:00:49.139 --> 01:00:54.767
, on Grady Cambage I thought was not
handled very well. I think it's, it's

01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:59.086
a book that, that should be read. It's
not just about him, it's about his

01:00:59.119 --> 01:01:04.865
, his 27 years here, you know, and uh
for anybody who is interested in

01:01:04.898 --> 01:01:11.816
issue history, it really covers that
quite well. Did you ever read that?

01:01:11.849 --> 01:01:16.526
We titled it? In fact, I guess

01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:23.925
Ju Is Man of Vision, wasn't it? Pretty
GJU Is Man of Vision?

01:01:23.958 --> 01:01:26.997
Now, did you do some of those books as
part of your job at A U or were

01:01:27.030 --> 01:01:31.606
those separate? They were all
separate? Even the G book that was after I

01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:33.816
retired?

01:01:33.849 --> 01:01:39.905
So, how long did you work at A U? When
did you retire? I retired at the

01:01:39.938 --> 01:01:42.695
end of 1983.

01:01:42.728 --> 01:01:47.345
So it's been quite a while. It doesn't
sound like you very much. And June

01:01:47.378 --> 01:01:52.486
organized a farewell retirement party
for me. Bless her heart. I still

01:01:52.519 --> 01:02:00.519
have the video that you did. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. Well, tell me about the

01:02:00.628 --> 01:02:05.756
department that you sort of started
and established. Um, were there people

01:02:05.789 --> 01:02:11.256
that worked in that department that
were notable? Well, by far the most

01:02:11.289 --> 01:02:16.376
notable I suppose was Larry Tusi, who
became one of the best known

01:02:16.409 --> 01:02:22.135
wildlife artists in America, still
living over in Phoenix. But he's not

01:02:22.168 --> 01:02:28.816
painting anymore. He got into writing.
He's a fine writer too. And uh he

01:02:28.849 --> 01:02:33.287
lost his son in Vietnam and that
seemed to change his whole personality.

01:02:33.320 --> 01:02:38.517
Oh, we were blessed to have him for a
couple of years. The most memorable

01:02:38.550 --> 01:02:43.477
thing about that I think was that he
turned out some beautiful work on all

01:02:43.510 --> 01:02:48.727
these publications, but he was there
when the Gage Auditorium was

01:02:48.760 --> 01:02:56.595
completed and we want to have a, a
book to sell, told about the auditorium

01:02:56.628 --> 01:03:04.477
and cost was no factor we could do one
or two and that was one of and

01:03:04.510 --> 01:03:10.327
we soon ran into a big problem. The
Frank Lloyd Wright people had always

01:03:10.360 --> 01:03:17.477
done their own and they, they looked
like architecture books. They were,

01:03:17.510 --> 01:03:20.477
were nice and all that, but they were
not already in any way. And that was

01:03:20.510 --> 01:03:28.510
what we wanted. And uh so I, I put my
back up and Larry put his up and,

01:03:28.688 --> 01:03:35.586
and uh there was at that time, the
head, the head people of, of the

01:03:35.619 --> 01:03:39.577
Frankly Wright Foundation were over in
Europe on some sort of tour and

01:03:39.610 --> 01:03:42.686
they kept the cables hot for a while.
But what are we gonna do about this

01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:45.287
? These, these

01:03:45.320 --> 01:03:48.586
schools down here want to do their own
book instead of letting the pros do

01:03:48.619 --> 01:03:56.267
it? Well, we had one of the pros and
Larry Tasik. Fortunately. And uh he

01:03:56.300 --> 01:04:01.646
designed a magnificent book. I don't
know if there are still reprinting

01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:04.666
that or not, are they? No, they're
not, still reprinting it. In fact, I

01:04:04.699 --> 01:04:08.425
think I've got two puppies at home
that I'm hanging with you better. You

01:04:08.458 --> 01:04:10.876
better.

01:04:10.909 --> 01:04:16.006
So, was that book done? You're the,

01:04:16.039 --> 01:04:22.195
the year the auditorium was finished.
It was 65.

01:04:22.228 --> 01:04:27.356
Yeah, the term was completed in 64. At
the end I worked on that. So I know

01:04:27.389 --> 01:04:35.389
it was probably after it was more like
65 that we, that's it. The most

01:04:36.809 --> 01:04:40.717
interesting thing about it was after
it was done, the Frank Lloyd Wright

01:04:40.750 --> 01:04:44.836
Foundation ordered about 50 copies.

01:04:44.869 --> 01:04:49.557
I, so that was quite a compliment for
you.

01:04:49.590 --> 01:04:55.456
Any other particular stories like that
of publications that you did?

01:04:55.489 --> 01:04:59.376
Well, we did a book sort of on my own.
Call it Men to match our building.

01:04:59.409 --> 01:05:03.336
Do you remember that one?

01:05:03.369 --> 01:05:06.945
I often wondered about the names of
some of the buildings I wasn't aware

01:05:06.978 --> 01:05:12.365
of Irish Hall. Think they're named
after Irishman. They're named after

01:05:12.398 --> 01:05:15.046
Frederick Irish.

01:05:15.079 --> 01:05:23.079
I was here 50 some years. Uh, that was
Matthew's Hall and uh he was a

01:05:25.128 --> 01:05:30.695
former president. So I spent some time
researching that and we put those

01:05:30.728 --> 01:05:34.856
together with a little story about
each one, the building and the person

01:05:34.889 --> 01:05:42.889
and, uh, I still have one copy of that
left.

01:05:43.418 --> 01:05:46.236
Um,

01:05:46.269 --> 01:05:52.537
why don't you tell me about how you
came to hire June?

01:05:52.570 --> 01:05:57.256
That's a good question. I had known
her work for a long time and, uh, she

01:05:57.289 --> 01:06:01.876
was working for, she was selling
whiskey, weren't she? Or beer or

01:06:01.909 --> 01:06:06.227
something? I was at the Republic when
you actually hired me. Oh, is that

01:06:06.260 --> 01:06:13.175
right? Yeah. And she worked for the
beverage journal and, uh, and it's a

01:06:13.208 --> 01:06:19.557
Republican. So I asked you to come
over. It's quite a nice thing to work

01:06:19.590 --> 01:06:25.595
on a campus. Really. When you've been
working in industry or, and that

01:06:25.628 --> 01:06:30.776
sort of thing. A campus is a very nice
place to work. You meet a lot of

01:06:30.809 --> 01:06:37.537
interesting people. You go to lunch
with experts in 100 fields. And

01:06:37.570 --> 01:06:42.526
so I think you were attracted by that
where you're not June.

01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:49.686
And, um, she, she was with me all the
way.

01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:57.719
Our first art director Bruce Benson
contracted some rare disease and died

01:06:57.849 --> 01:07:02.936
after about two years. That's when
Larry came on,

01:07:02.969 --> 01:07:10.586
Bruce was a great guy. I, I loved him
but I didn't get to know you. Mhm.

01:07:10.619 --> 01:07:17.276
He had a great sense of humor. Larry
and Jim Flanagan and two or three

01:07:17.309 --> 01:07:19.986
others.

01:07:20.019 --> 01:07:24.635
When you look back over your, your
long career at a, at a suw, what is it

01:07:24.668 --> 01:07:28.807
that, that you're proudest of,

01:07:28.840 --> 01:07:34.115
I guess, sort of being there at the,
at the beginning

01:07:34.148 --> 01:07:39.356
when I came over, they had the old
quad and, uh,

01:07:39.389 --> 01:07:43.606
they had the industrial arts building

01:07:43.639 --> 01:07:49.086
where we had to, the publication
headquarters, we had Matthews Hall and,

01:07:49.119 --> 01:07:54.767
and Matthews library was fairly new
and they just built Irish Hall and, uh

01:07:54.800 --> 01:07:58.845
, a few of those buildings around that
was it, that was all the, all the

01:07:58.878 --> 01:08:02.595
bedrooms there were. So I, I
personally have gotten to be in on, on

01:08:02.628 --> 01:08:09.166
watching almost the whole campus
built. And knowing the, uh, the first

01:08:09.199 --> 01:08:14.566
Danes we did, uh, a book on the, on
the founding deans one time, didn't we

01:08:14.599 --> 01:08:17.476
?

01:08:17.509 --> 01:08:20.857
And there's still a couple of them
live.

01:08:20.890 --> 01:08:28.890
Let's see, I deemed of, no, he's dead.
Well, Dean mcgrath is alive. He's

01:08:29.659 --> 01:08:35.026
over at Friendship Village.

01:08:35.059 --> 01:08:41.515
Uh Hardway. She's alive. That's right.
And the father of the father of the

01:08:41.548 --> 01:08:49.548
Rio Sla Jim, Jim Elmore.

01:08:49.949 --> 01:08:55.635
01 thing II, I should mention it was
my pleasure to get to know almost

01:08:55.668 --> 01:09:00.175
every football coach in the history,
including the first one who was coach

01:09:00.208 --> 01:09:02.376
in 1896.

01:09:02.409 --> 01:09:07.406
And of course, I wasn't here then.
That was Frederick Irish and he was

01:09:07.439 --> 01:09:15.439
alive when I came here as a freshman.
And, uh,

01:09:16.288 --> 01:09:19.446
Matthews who had been president for 30
years was still alive. They both

01:09:19.479 --> 01:09:22.055
died in 1941.

01:09:22.088 --> 01:09:24.885
So I didn't get to know them well, but
I didn't get to know them and it

01:09:24.918 --> 01:09:32.317
was. And then of course, I knew all
the others after, after 40 um you

01:09:32.350 --> 01:09:38.277
probably never heard of Dixie Howell.
He was Heisman mister football

01:09:38.310 --> 01:09:44.046
player of the year in 1935. He, he was
our coach who brought us our first

01:09:44.079 --> 01:09:49.726
prominence early in football, went to
the Sun Bowl two years in a row, 19

01:09:49.759 --> 01:09:54.946
39 and 40. And uh

01:09:54.979 --> 01:10:01.246
so all those we've had, of course,
Frank Kush and Dan Devine and

01:10:01.279 --> 01:10:05.067
I never heard in football Hall of
Fame, those fellows are all in the Hall

01:10:05.100 --> 01:10:11.588
of Fame. So we've had a lot of
interesting characters pass our way.

01:10:12.359 --> 01:10:14.359
Interesting that you got to know them all and all of the, um, the college

01:10:18.048 --> 01:10:20.946
presidents too.

01:10:20.979 --> 01:10:24.726
What kind of difference does a college
president make when it changes? We

01:10:24.759 --> 01:10:28.586
just got a new president. How do you,
have you seen the university change

01:10:28.619 --> 01:10:32.616
with the different presidents? It
makes a huge difference. Uh And we were

01:10:32.649 --> 01:10:38.756
all holding our breath about what
changes the new one. Doctor Crow is

01:10:38.789 --> 01:10:44.925
going to make. He is so different from
lady. Lady was the ultimate public

01:10:44.958 --> 01:10:50.015
relations expert. Everybody loved
lady. And he did a great job. He was one

01:10:50.048 --> 01:10:56.496
of our very finest presidents. Crow is
a little more abrasive. He is a

01:10:56.529 --> 01:11:00.876
workaholic, he expects everybody else
to be a workaholic. He's a driver

01:11:00.909 --> 01:11:03.487
and there's people that are just
wondering whether they're gonna be able

01:11:03.520 --> 01:11:08.777
to keep up with his pace, but I think
he'll do great things here if he's

01:11:08.810 --> 01:11:11.946
allowed to do it,

01:11:11.979 --> 01:11:17.996
one president will, will emphasize
research other than teaching.

01:11:18.029 --> 01:11:23.777
Of course, we all talk about the,
they're all equal. But uh each one of

01:11:23.810 --> 01:11:28.187
them has his own ideas and I think
Crowe is going to be a research

01:11:28.220 --> 01:11:33.885
oriented president. That seems to be
the big thing these days. How have

01:11:33.918 --> 01:11:36.885
you seen that change from? You started
it with a teacher's college and now

01:11:36.918 --> 01:11:40.126
they're talking about it as a research
college. How, what is the

01:11:40.159 --> 01:11:45.996
difference? Amazing changes. Uh Our
friends in the South like to refer to

01:11:46.029 --> 01:11:49.196
us as the normal school.

01:11:49.229 --> 01:11:54.737
You maybe I'm kind of proud of that.
We started as a in, we're, we're five

01:11:54.770 --> 01:11:59.187
years older than they are. Did you
know that

01:11:59.220 --> 01:12:06.256
the normal school started in 1886 and
the U of A didn't start until 1891.

01:12:06.289 --> 01:12:12.135
So we got a five year jump on them.
But uh

01:12:12.168 --> 01:12:17.217
I got to watch it go from a teacher
training institution primarily into

01:12:17.250 --> 01:12:22.326
all the various stages of branching
out into other things to a research,

01:12:22.359 --> 01:12:26.696
one university as it is. Now,

01:12:26.729 --> 01:12:30.937
would you ever think that you would
see that?

01:12:30.970 --> 01:12:33.845
Can you imagine us playing Notre Dame
in Nebraska and football, for

01:12:33.878 --> 01:12:36.055
example?

01:12:36.088 --> 01:12:44.088
Can you imagine us uh I was more uh
scholars of what do they call the kids

01:12:48.009 --> 01:12:55.237
to get the uh national merit? We have
had more national merit scholars the

01:12:55.270 --> 01:12:59.536
last three years than the other two
Arizona Universities combined. That

01:12:59.569 --> 01:13:04.845
would have been far beyond anybody's
belief before, you know. But, uh, we

01:13:04.878 --> 01:13:09.437
have gone so far, so fast.

01:13:09.470 --> 01:13:14.265
I hope the budget cuts don't slow it
completely down.

01:13:14.298 --> 01:13:20.135
Do you see the story this morning
about? Have you let people go?

01:13:20.168 --> 01:13:23.967
That's one thing you had, you had job
security here through all that time

01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:28.515
. I was there. Nobody got fired

01:13:28.548 --> 01:13:34.296
but they are. Now,

01:13:34.329 --> 01:13:41.086
what is your memory of, of the, the
best day that you had at, at a su

01:13:41.119 --> 01:13:44.666
probably as a student.

01:13:44.699 --> 01:13:47.786
I'll talk about that a little bit.

01:13:47.819 --> 01:13:52.345
The big thing here was the Wednesday
night dances. Do you remember those?

01:13:52.378 --> 01:13:58.476
I think I was a little bit later. That
was a big social event every

01:13:58.509 --> 01:14:03.237
Wednesday night in the Moore building,
which was the women's gym at that

01:14:03.270 --> 01:14:09.567
time. They lasted from 7 to 8. The
freshman girls had to be back in the

01:14:09.600 --> 01:14:15.385
dorm by eight o'clock on weekdays.
Talk about a local parata. So we had it

01:14:15.418 --> 01:14:17.635
,

01:14:17.668 --> 01:14:21.756
we took care of our girls to keep them
out of trouble. They had one late

01:14:21.789 --> 01:14:26.956
night, a semester that all they had
where they could stay out, I guess the

01:14:26.989 --> 01:14:31.595
whole weekend. But, uh,

01:14:31.628 --> 01:14:35.946
as I mentioned, I think there were two
cars on the campus at that time and

01:14:35.979 --> 01:14:40.916
one sport coat. I think

01:14:40.949 --> 01:14:45.647
you go down to the Varsity and you
could buy a Coke for your girlfriend

01:14:45.680 --> 01:14:52.076
for a nickel. Watch somebody else play
the record machine.

01:14:52.109 --> 01:14:56.595
We blissfully went along. Didn't know
how poor we were.

01:14:56.628 --> 01:15:01.425
Those were good days. You'd be rich in
a lot of ways. What to you was like

01:15:01.458 --> 01:15:05.397
the worst day that you remember at the
university.

01:15:05.430 --> 01:15:10.147
Well, certainly the simmering scandal
was one of the things that kept me

01:15:10.180 --> 01:15:12.156
awake.

01:15:12.189 --> 01:15:15.506
It looked like everything they built
for so many years was going to

01:15:15.539 --> 01:15:22.406
collapse. And, and then of course, the
crash incident in which he was

01:15:22.439 --> 01:15:26.616
fired summarily on the afternoon
before the Washington game. And that's

01:15:26.649 --> 01:15:32.726
cost us dearly in many, many ways, it
cut to giving to the university

01:15:32.759 --> 01:15:38.687
severely. A lot of people who were,
who worshiped Frank Kush just shut

01:15:38.720 --> 01:15:43.326
their pocketbooks after that happened
and it took a year or two to get

01:15:43.359 --> 01:15:48.626
over it. So those were two of the
things that I remember. It is not very

01:15:48.659 --> 01:15:50.925
pleasant.

01:15:50.958 --> 01:15:54.976
Incidentally, my book on the Sun
Devils came out the week Frank Kush was

01:15:55.009 --> 01:15:58.946
fired, talk about timing.

01:15:58.979 --> 01:16:04.506
Oh, did that hurt the sales or help
them?

01:16:04.539 --> 01:16:08.857
Fred Miller wanted to stop sales of
Fred Miller was the director of

01:16:08.890 --> 01:16:12.635
athletics and, uh,

01:16:12.668 --> 01:16:18.076
because there was stuff in there about
Kush his program and all that, but

01:16:18.109 --> 01:16:25.326
we went ahead and sold it anyway
through the alumni office.

01:16:25.359 --> 01:16:30.175
Let's see, what do you see as, as the
sort of legacy that you leave to

01:16:30.208 --> 01:16:33.876
people at a su

01:16:33.909 --> 01:16:40.437
Well, if, if I could do anything for
my Alma mater, Rama. Leave an

01:16:40.470 --> 01:16:45.626
institutional memory, I guess you'd
say because too often you have, have

01:16:45.659 --> 01:16:49.515
people who don't know anything that
happened before yesterday or care.

01:16:49.548 --> 01:16:57.548
Really. We find the Doyle and I
incidentally are starting a class

01:16:57.668 --> 01:17:02.206
this semester, um, called a su or Alma
Mater in which we're gonna cover

01:17:02.239 --> 01:17:07.046
these things and in none of the
classes filled up, they're not taking any

01:17:07.079 --> 01:17:11.987
more applicants or any more enrollees.
So we're going to use the pictures

01:17:12.020 --> 01:17:15.416
and we're going to bring in some of
the people who were part of the

01:17:15.449 --> 01:17:22.675
history of the institution and, uh, do
a little lecturing and have a good

01:17:22.708 --> 01:17:27.446
time doing it. I think it sounds like
fun. Is that a credit class or 11

01:17:27.479 --> 01:17:32.666
credit, one hour a week? And that's,
that's going to be offered this fall

01:17:32.699 --> 01:17:36.397
?

01:17:36.430 --> 01:17:41.187
Interesting. What about off campus?
What do you see as the legacy that you

01:17:41.220 --> 01:17:45.987
leave in Arizona State off campus and
all the other books and things

01:17:46.020 --> 01:17:48.397
you've done?

01:17:48.430 --> 01:17:53.055
Oh, I've, I've tried to further the
knowledge about Arizona history and,

01:17:53.088 --> 01:17:59.357
uh, I had to do a lot of research on
that along the way. I met a lot of

01:17:59.390 --> 01:18:04.187
the people who did, who made history
along the way. Polly Rosenbaum being

01:18:04.220 --> 01:18:11.647
one of them. You see the big story
about her last week. A great old gal to

01:18:11.680 --> 01:18:16.015
get to talk to people who were
senators and legislative leaders and all

01:18:16.048 --> 01:18:21.277
that has been one of the most
interesting things that I've had to do and I

01:18:21.310 --> 01:18:25.635
think, maybe help to introduce people

01:18:25.668 --> 01:18:29.635
to their state and how it got the way
it is.

01:18:29.668 --> 01:18:33.536
And yet you majored in business. I
majored in business and never, never

01:18:33.569 --> 01:18:39.067
used it and didn't major in history or
no, I didn't major in history

01:18:39.100 --> 01:18:44.487
either. But, uh,

01:18:44.520 --> 01:18:48.817
no, I think that that's probably if
I've done anything for the state that

01:18:48.850 --> 01:18:54.256
would be it three or four years with
the Arizona Historical Foundation, we

01:18:54.289 --> 01:19:00.987
tried to, to collect as much material
as we could and

01:19:01.020 --> 01:19:06.576
some riding in that area too. So I've
already been doing that for the last

01:19:06.609 --> 01:19:13.826
30 years, probably at the cost of my
regular job.

01:19:13.859 --> 01:19:17.506
What advice do you have for, for young
people today that are just starting

01:19:17.539 --> 01:19:22.095
out in their careers and deciding what
to do with their lives?

01:19:22.128 --> 01:19:26.857
I think one of the wisest things I've
heard was

01:19:26.890 --> 01:19:31.345
industrial president, spoke to one of
the groups here years ago and he

01:19:31.378 --> 01:19:37.015
said your first job is so important,

01:19:37.048 --> 01:19:43.187
your salary means nothing. Pick a job
that will help you learn something.

01:19:43.220 --> 01:19:48.256
Don't take a job that pays twice as
much as a dead end or whatever. But,

01:19:48.289 --> 01:19:56.289
uh, I did that at, in college. My, my
jobs are always in journalism

01:19:57.729 --> 01:20:03.817
so I've tried to follow that advice
all the way through

01:20:03.850 --> 01:20:07.826
to get out of school. It's a big old
world out there now. You're, you're

01:20:07.859 --> 01:20:11.866
probably lucky to get a job at all.
It's, it's, it's pretty tough job

01:20:11.899 --> 01:20:16.156
market, but if you have a choice it's
much better to, to pick one that,

01:20:16.189 --> 01:20:19.416
that leads somewhere, even though the
salary may be minimal. I think

01:20:19.449 --> 01:20:22.555
that's very good advice.

01:20:22.588 --> 01:20:25.226
Do you need anything else you wanted
to ask? Well, I can't think of

01:20:25.259 --> 01:20:28.467
anything else right now. I didn't know
whether you wanted to talk about

01:20:28.500 --> 01:20:31.717
your family or anything. Did you wanna
say? I haven't really talked much

01:20:31.750 --> 01:20:36.376
about that. So, who's a doctor? Did
you think is very interested in that?

01:20:36.409 --> 01:20:38.956
Well, most of the people have
mentioned where they met their wives or

01:20:38.989 --> 01:20:46.446
something like that. Oh, I met my wife
and in 1942

01:20:46.479 --> 01:20:49.437
I can't exactly remember. And she's
kind of angry about that, but I think

01:20:49.470 --> 01:20:53.277
it was at one of the Wednesday night
dances.

01:20:53.310 --> 01:20:59.586
We, uh, went together, uh, for almost
a year before I was called into the

01:20:59.619 --> 01:21:07.175
service and, but we both married other
people and got together 25 years

01:21:07.208 --> 01:21:14.595
later with four Children each and
we've been able to tell those families

01:21:14.628 --> 01:21:20.376
together pretty well. My kids all love
Jean and she's a,

01:21:20.409 --> 01:21:25.746
she's their mother really because
their mother had some mental problems,

01:21:25.779 --> 01:21:31.317
make it difficult for them. But Jean
has been very special to her. I have

01:21:31.350 --> 01:21:39.116
three daughters. Uh, Cathy, the oldest
is uh as an RN. She's also as a

01:21:39.149 --> 01:21:44.437
masters in history. I was working on
her doctorate for a while until she

01:21:44.470 --> 01:21:49.717
decided to go into some other things.
Karen. The next one was a teacher at

01:21:49.750 --> 01:21:53.256
NASA high school for a number of
years.

01:21:53.289 --> 01:21:58.675
Clark. The third is a psychiatrist in
San Diego

01:21:58.708 --> 01:22:05.586
and the youngest Kelly works for Bank
of America and the

01:22:05.619 --> 01:22:09.437
tracing down fraud division.

01:22:09.470 --> 01:22:12.866
She, she doesn't even talk about that
much. I'd like to find out more of

01:22:12.899 --> 01:22:16.937
what she does there. But, uh,

01:22:16.970 --> 01:22:19.916
we always talk about other things, I
guess, interesting today with

01:22:19.949 --> 01:22:24.425
computers and identity fraud. And so
none of them followed in your

01:22:24.458 --> 01:22:28.437
footsteps and in journalism.

01:22:28.470 --> 01:22:33.756
No, not really. Uh two or three of
them are very talented writers. Uh

01:22:33.789 --> 01:22:40.076
Cathy in particular, uh Kelly is a
natural artist but she wants to be a

01:22:40.109 --> 01:22:47.196
writer and so she, she doesn't do
either one of them really very much. But

01:22:47.229 --> 01:22:55.229
uh I've started something in the
family wondering uh on their birthdays

01:22:55.548 --> 01:23:01.326
instead of sending them a check or
credit slip or something like that. I'm

01:23:01.359 --> 01:23:05.206
sitting down with them and
interviewing them about their childhood and

01:23:05.239 --> 01:23:08.805
then I'm going to summarize what
they've said and, and give it to him as a

01:23:08.838 --> 01:23:12.515
little package for, for their Children
because the kids always wanna know

01:23:12.548 --> 01:23:17.826
what was it like when you were a young
mama? And that'll be priceless, you

01:23:17.859 --> 01:23:21.706
know. So I think it was, it was a good
idea. And what about interviewing

01:23:21.739 --> 01:23:25.366
you? Are they interviewing you?

01:23:25.399 --> 01:23:30.326
The library did a book on me?

01:23:30.359 --> 01:23:35.976
Which is in the stack somewhere.

01:23:36.009 --> 01:23:42.385
Jan, who wrote it? Uh, yeah, that's
right. Yeah, I remember, I heard about

01:23:42.418 --> 01:23:48.366
it but I haven't read it. It was not
widely read. Shall we say it? Never

01:23:48.399 --> 01:23:51.726
made the, you didn't,

01:23:51.759 --> 01:23:56.845
did you read it? Never made the New
York Times list? Yes, I did. Yes, I

01:23:56.878 --> 01:23:59.036
did.

01:23:59.069 --> 01:24:02.175
Yeah, I think I've covered most of the
things that I had to ask. I think

01:24:02.208 --> 01:24:07.487
you have anything else that, uh, you
wanted to bring up?

01:24:07.520 --> 01:24:11.946
Oh, you, you could talk for hours. I
find when I'm interviewing people on

01:24:11.979 --> 01:24:15.135
, on books, you know, you think you've
covered everything and then you,

01:24:15.168 --> 01:24:19.046
you go back and I didn't even talk
about this and I should have and

01:24:19.079 --> 01:24:22.616
they'll come up with something, uh,
when you just sit down for an hour or

01:24:22.649 --> 01:24:26.805
two, you don't, you just go ahead at
all. Right. No, you kind of just skim

01:24:26.838 --> 01:24:30.366
over the surface of a lot of it.
There's a lot of areas you could go back

01:24:30.399 --> 01:24:33.777
and talk in detail. But I think for
our purposes here we've probably got

01:24:33.810 --> 01:24:36.647
what we need

01:24:36.680 --> 01:24:40.366
a very interesting career and I
appreciate you asking me to do this. Thank

01:24:40.399 --> 01:24:42.399
you.