January 4th of 2006. And we're at the visitor information center at a su
at rural and Apache Boulevard. Um, and I'll let you introduce yourself if
you could just give me your full name. I'm Frank Kush, former football
coach at a SU I'm now in the athletic department in community relations.
I'd like to start off by getting a little background. Um, tell me, when
were you born? I was born in 1805. No, I'm just kidding. I
did, I goof that up. No, I quit horsing around. I was born in 1929. And so
I, so I'm 76 years old. If your mathematics or at all, you didn't tell me
the date. So January the 20th
birthday coming up. Right. Exactly.
Uh, I can remember that. Where were you born? Win? Pennsylvania, a coal
mining town in southeast of Pittsburgh, approximately 80 miles from there.
In fact, the old Johnstown flood back in the late 18 hundreds was right
next door to Wimber. In fact, a lot of the rivers and streams I should say
that came through river were part of that Stony Creek River flood. Tell me
a little bit about your life growing up? Well, I'm from a family of 15
Children. My mom and dad are from Europe. My mother was from
Czechoslovakia. My dad was from Poland. They came over here and my
dad was a coal miner. We lived in those coal mining towns in Pennsylvania.
It's very similar to the mines here in Arizona, like Globe and Miami. And
those places, uh, the houses are green, gray, yellow, green, gray. You
better not go out drinking because you won't know what color you found it.
But anyway, we, we came, I'll use to be more political. We came from an
indigent type of family. We didn't have electricity until I would say till
I uh went into high school. My dad died when I was 15. There were 10 of us
, 10 of us at home. My youngest brother that graduated ironically from
Arizona State was born about two weeks after my dad died. But my mother
was a, a great individual from the standpoint of stability and maintaining
the discipline within the family because my dad was quite a disciplinarian
and there's no question about it. And we all learned to work and every one
of my brothers and sisters have high school degrees, even though my dad
couldn't speak English and he spoke Polish and my mother could speak
Slavish, Polish and Hungarian. And the funny part about it when I said, go
to my grandmother's place, they speak all those three different languages
as a kid. You know, I try to figure out what's going on. But so anyway, we
, uh we were very fortunate from the standpoint of uh disciplined family
education was very significant to all of us. And so we were fortunate to
have a caring dad from the standpoint of making you responsible
accountable. And the great thing about him was that he respected you for
your age. If you were younger, he didn't expect that much from you, but he
taught you what to do and you better have learned it after the first or
second time. But as I said, he died when he was 50 a coal miner from
miners asthma. And so we struggled but we made it about the language. What
language did you grow up? We, we grew up speaking Polish and English and
some Slavish when my mother would talk to her, to her mother. And, and I,
of course, I went to a Polish Catholic school for one year to be the first
holy communion and all that jazz. But uh the interesting thing about it,
all that community when I say it's called Mine 35 as I mentioned previous
house Green. They're all ethnic people, poles, slavs, Hungarians. We had a
Hispanic family also and they were all coal miners and coal mining has to
be the second most dangerous profession. I had an uncle who was killed in
the coal mines. And I think lobster up in the north and Port Alaska is the
most dangerous. But, uh, I, I just saw a show about West Virginia where
they had a mine cave in. But again, uh, the good thing about it, nobody
told you you were poor. Like we didn't have electricity, we didn't have
hot water and having breakfast, lunch and dinner. It was one of those
things that you, you just never had. You ate, what was, what was available
the first time I had three square meals when I went to college and I
thought I was in pig heaven. And another interesting thing is that we had
water beds way before anybody ever dreamed of. There were six of us in one
bed. So there's only three beds for the whole mob of us. It was always
kind of interesting that way, but it didn't make any difference because
you knew what you had to do and you did it properly. Kids today probably
can't imagine growing up. No. Exactly. Right. Having 15 kids in the family.
That was somewhat of a chore.
Well, you know, the interesting thing I started working on a railroad when
I was 15 and I was making six, five cents an hour, which wasn't bad at
that time. And I helped out because my dad died when I was a, I think, a
sophomore in high school that summer when I was working on the railroad
and he died in June 1940.
4 and uh, June 14th, ironically, but the interesting thing about it is
that, uh, we had a cow, so we always had milk and, uh, and then my dad
used to hire us out and he would go with us and then we'd pick crops for
the farmers and they'd give us some land and we'd plant potatoes and
cabbage. Kapusta is cabbage and bandy is in Polish. So we got a lot of
that. But the interesting thing about it and we had a big barrel down the
cellar where we had two, it was 50 gallon barrels and they were full of
cabbage. And that's what we had for the bulk of the winter in a potato. So
I bet 80% of our meals were directly or indirectly affiliated with
potatoes and cabbage.
No, we couldn't afford much meat. No, there wasn't. No. Um, as you were
growing up was school important. Yes. Well, you know, the thing that I, I
thought was fantastic about it, you don't realize it. We were all required
to go to school and we had some great teachers. My first grade teacher,
Miss, in fact, she liked me. So well, she asked me to come back for
another year. I flung first grade and it really helped me out because I'm
a little more mature than the kids coming in. And uh every one of those
teachers, Miss Watson, the second grade teacher, Miss Brown, the third
grade teacher, Miss FJZ, Miss Vespa and Miss Johnson. Now, let me tell you
about Miss Johnson. She was the principal of this elementary school. Now,
all those teachers are all females used to drive up and be at this school
at 935. Well, I dated her niece when I was in high school and then her
niece was married and moved out to Arizona when Miss Johnson was the
principal of the elementary school. I thought she was about 6 ft five. And
, and if you look, you got walking in the hallway, if you look this way,
that way she'd grab you by the cheek and turn you around and everything
else. Well, the reason I mentioned her daughter, they, her and her husband
moved to Arizona and we had dinner with them and Mary Anne called me. She
says, Frank, my aunt Ruby is coming to town. We'd like to have you come
over dinner. This is the Gospel truth. I go and see her. She's got to be
about 5 ft three or so. I thought to myself, I was scared of that, you
know. But no, they, they were really caring people. The teachers were and
, and I, I'll say this also. They were really
concerned about education. I'm talking about whether it was reading
spelling, etcetera and they did a commendable job. I attribute the bulk of
the success that I had educationally, etcetera and the disciplines from my
mom and dad and those elementary school teachers. They were great. I
didn't like them but they were great.
You went to high school? Did you?
Well, no, I was, you keep your mouth shut and you learn that in a hurry.
Then from the elementary school where we were at mine, 35 there's mines,
35 36 37. In all those communities I talked about and then I went to the
junior high and I set a record for playing hooky Donner because they
couldn't keep track of it. We didn't have phones or there wasn't a truant
officer. And then we just told my mom we're going to school and we'd play
hooky and I think I set a new record with about three of us from 935
playing hooky. Then I start playing football in eighth grade. And the high
school football coach said to me, he said, if you do not go to class and
you don't report down to junior high because we were there in the morning
and at the high school in the afternoon, you're not going to be able to
come out for football. So I quit cutting classes and I tell you what the
funny part about it when you go cutting classes. So, like in the fall,
we'd go look up in different farmers field where we could, you know, get
corn or get apples, etcetera and everything else because all of the kids
were, as I said, from the same type of background, but as I said, there
was no truant officer, etcetera and everything else. And so I straightened
up my act again because I enjoyed playing football. So you started playing
football. It's great. Right.
You don't seem like a large man today. Well, you know, the intriguing
thing about it, it has changed dramatically, even when I coached at
Arizona State, we didn't have Big Ice and today it's, you know, I want to
get real technical but it's all it is is upper body movement. When we were
kids, you had be a great technician and the high school coaches were great
as far as teaching techniques, whether it's blocking tackling, etc, and
everything else. And that's why somebody that was a little smaller like
myself had the opportunity and I was very fortunate to have three good
years in high school and I enjoyed the high school career and then I had
the opportunity to go to college. Was that unusual in your family? Not
only my family, I think I was one of the few in that whole community. The
town of Wimber used to be about, I'd say 15,000. Now it's about three or
four because all of the industry, the coal mines are steel mills in that
general area and the railroad is no longer there. I mean, they're there
but they're not functioning and they don't have any business. Uh Yes, we,
I was one of the first to go down to college, there were a couple of
others but basically from up in that coal mining area where I was, I was,
as they said, the lone soldier. What made you decide to go to college?
Well, that's a very good question. I admired one of our teachers who lived
up the street and anybody where we lived. I mean, they're all, when I say
ethnic people and very few of them ever went to college. I mean, you
worked in the coal mines, etcetera and everything else. Mister Shuster was
his name. I'll never forget him. And I thought, well, you know, he looks
like he's dressed and everything else goes to school with a suit and tie
and I think he would be a role model in a way. And so then I had the
opportunity and I was a relative, I wasn't a five beta Kappa, but I was a
respectable high school student and I've taken the proper courses of
chemistry and the physics, et cetera and everything else. And so I got the
opportunity to go to school. And I, I tell you, I, I'm, I visited a number
of schools and I, I wasn't real big and not really overconfident, although
I was, uh, I don't mean to be egotistical but an exceptionally good high
school football. They made all state in Pennsylvania. They only picked 11
at that time. So there were schools after and they looked at me, he's too
small you know. But anyway, I went to Washington and Lee for one semester
, uh down in Lexington, Virginia, which is a private institution, all male.
And I was out of my element monetarily. And after the one semester I
transferred to Michigan State and I was very fortunate to be with a very
successful program there. So, you went to college. The first one
I never got there. We have any other way to go. Believe me. In fact, the
interesting thing about it, the coach was Pappy Lewis. I'll never get that.
He came and rounded us up. He had six of us. Now, Lexington, Virginia is
kind of southeast of where we live and he came and rounded us up right in
August. He picked me up where I was at the Wimber area and went up to
Sharon, northwestern Pennsylvania, then over to eastern Pennsylvania and
you picked up, there are six of us in the car and he took us down all
freshmen in Washington. We had a pretty good football team also. I might
add, we didn't lose any games. He only played four, but we didn't lose any
because he did a great job of recruiting. And that is the success to any
college program is the recruiting aspect of it. They came up to
Pennsylvania and they had a lot of youngsters from Pennsylvania. What was
it that you didn't like about it? Well, you know, when you're, I'll give
you a super example, the first class I went to, I didn't realize you had
to wear a tie and a coat. I didn't have a tie and a coat. So I was out of
my element financially. In fact, I'll never forget I went to this
assistant football coach and helped recruit me, John Jaffre. And I said,
coach, I've got a problem. The instructor said to me, you know, in the
first class I was in the first couple of days. He, he, he was very polite
and he says, he says, Mr Kush and he called you by Mr Kush. He said, I
don't know if you realize it, but you've got to wear a tie and a coat to
class. And I told him, I said, you know, I'm sorry, I don't have a tie but
I said, I'll get one, you know. So I went to see John Jaffre and that's
the gospel truth. I told him, I said, Coach, I've got a problem. I says I
need a coat and I need a tie and he we, he said, come back and see me
about an hour. He got me one of his coats and he gave me a tie and then I
, and he gave me two white shirts. Also, I wore those for the whole
semester, the same child and the same coat. So nobody knew the difference.
You know, we weren't trying to impress anybody. It was, it wasn't
co-educational. So we're not trying to impress good looking ladies, like
you say, and all of the instructors were male. So, but you just decided
you weren't comfortable there. Well, the reason I wasn't comfortable was
that it wasn't academics. Although believe me, I was shocked because in
high school we had a limited number of tests, but that was my first
indoctrination in the college, the academics. I mean, we had tests every
time we turn around and you had to take Spanish, you had to take math and
algebra and science courses, etc, and everything else. And I hadn't had
Spanish before. So I had to really one thing I learned, I learned about
myself from the standpoint of studying. And I think that probably carried
me through many years. I used to read and then take notes on what I would
read and then study the notes that I made. And it helped me and I had a
friend that was pretty good at Spanish and he helped me and, and as I said
, I wasn't a five Beta Ka but I got through and, but, and the reason I
left, I was out of my element from the standpoint of clothes from
monetarily, etcetera and everything else. What made you decide to go to
Michigan? Well, I had an opportunity previously, they recruited me to go
to Michigan State Duffy Doherty who was, uh he was from Western
Pennsylvania and he was assistant coach at Michigan State and he came down
and recruited me and, uh, and I played in an All Star game and they had a
pretty good game and they really wanted me to go to Michigan State. But I
, I thought I was out of my element and I was kind of small. I wasn't a
real big guy. And so, uh, that's all in and the coach from Washington Lee
P he just came and rounded us up and threw us in the car and took us down
to Washington Lee. So I was there for one semester at the Washington Lee.
Then I transferred to Michigan State. You mentioned a couple of times.
You were that big. How big were you? About 175 £180. And I think I was
about two inches taller than I am. Now, I got a duck down
about 5, 10,
sophomore year in my sophomore, junior and senior. Right. And excuse me,
Michigan, it was, it was a lot larger campus. It was certainly was a
little bigger than Washington Lee and it was about the size of Arizona
State when there was about 10,000 students and it was a typical midwestern
college atmosphere and I really enjoyed it. One of my high school
teammates, John Yaka, who's now a doctor is, was there a year ahead of me
? So I, I was somewhat indoctrinated in the semester of Washington League
and I was accustomed to being away from home. Didn't make any difference.
The best thing happened to me getting away from home, I had my own bed.
But the amazing thing about it after leaving Washington, going to Michigan
State, I red shirted one year which you sit out and then I played first
string for three years for him and we only lost one game in three years
and we were national champs. Our senior year when you were going to
college was the main focus. No academics, believe me, it's changed
dramatically. In my opinion, our priorities and I acquired this number one
social responsibility, you better not get in any trouble. I'm talking
about abusive behavior, whatever it may be, the second priority was
academics. We had the college uh basic system, you had to pass
comprehensive exams to get into the upper division classes or even say
going into your junior and senior year II, I was really kind of scared
about the comprehensive exam. In other words, you'd have say like you take
English one quarter, second quarter and the third quarter, then you'd have
an exam and if you flunked it, they'd give you another quarter to try to
recover. And if you got whatever grade you got. And I was fortunate I got
CS or betters in all eight of those comps. And I developed the interest in
science and I attribute that to a high school teacher. We had Mister Coots
who was our biology and one of our science teachers. And he was such a
fantastic teacher. He created that interest where you acquired as a high
school student interest in just basic factors about biology. So I
developed an inclination for it. And so I got a degree in biology and also
in education, but I attribute that to that high school coach. And as I
said, the comprehensive system was kind of scary, but, you know, you were
prepared each quarter and I got through without any trouble with them.
What were your thoughts about what you were going to do when you got out?
I had no idea whatsoever. And I, after I graduated from Michigan State, I
went into the military for two years.
Fort Benning, Georgia Infantry School. I was in ROTC. So I ended up being
a first lieutenant in the infantry. I was going to stay in the military
because I had a distinguished military graduation from college. But I ran
into a major who didn't like junior officers and he discouraged me, didn't
discourage me purposely, but it was obvious that you could get one
individual that was what I would say, obsessed with himself, etcetera and
everything else. And one thing I learned in the military, he was a major.
But even though I was the first, ended up being the first lieutenant, you
keep your mouth shut and say yes, sir. No, sir. But the intriguing thing
about him, he was one of those individuals because of his behavior. He
really in my opinion, was detrimental. He'd been passed over from, uh,
going on to be a colonel and I think he kind of took it out on the younger
officers and I happened to be one of them and I, I could write a book on,
on Major Rose was his name. I'll never forget him. But, uh, so, uh, I, um
, Duffy Doughty call me, Duffy Doherty called me. He was the head coach,
not Michigan State. Dandy Vine just had taken a job at Arizona State and
Duffy because he recruited me, I had a great relationship and he said,
what are you going to do when you get out of the service? And I said, gee
, I really don't know yet. I said I was thinking of staying in the
military because I had a, uh, the interesting thing about it. They found
out I was a football player when I was in the service and the post
commander, uh General Fritchie was kind of an athletic guy. He liked
athletics and I'll never forget, uh, Colonel Kronk or Bird K when I say
Bird Kel, I like God in the infantry. And, uh, he says, uh, General
Fritchie wants to talk to you and I'm a second Lieutenant Fritchie wants
to talk to me
when I found out and, and, and I had that visit with him. And, uh, and he
said to me, what are you going to do? He said I see you have Ad MS. And I
said, yes, sir. He said you're gonna stay in. I said, yes, I believe I am.
He said, well, we'd like to have a coach and play football for us at the
school brigade. You know, you're not going to say, maybe let me think
about you. Yes, sir. You know. And so that's how I got assigned. And
believe me, that probably saved my life because we had a class of all
infantry, all second lieutenants. And out of our class, I think the
previous class went to Korea and I think they had about eight or 12 2nd
lieutenants killed there. And out of our class, we had two or three that
went there. Fortunately, I was supposed to play in the All Star game in
Chicago and they found out I was a football player and that's how I got
assigned to Fort Benning. So I was at Fort Benning for two years. I really
enjoyed it. The training I got in the military was fantastic. You know, we
were all infantry officers and we had great instructions.
The ca dry were just remarkable and I was really impressed with it. So I
was fortunate, I graduated relatively high in a class because of my
military experience and everything else. And then as I said, when Duffy
Doherty called me, he said, call Dandy Vine up, he's going to be the new
head coach at Arizona State College at that time. And that's how I
wandered out to the west. Do you want me to get into that? Let's go back
and get the years that you were in the military. I was in Michigan State
from 1940 to 52. I was at Michigan State. 5051 to 52 playing football. I
was a freshman there in 49. I went into the military in 53 and, uh, I got
married in 55
and our first child, Danny would kick for us at Arizona State. I knew his
mother pretty well. That's why he played.
You want to talk about meeting your wife? Well, you know, she was, her dad
was on a faculty at Michigan State and I met her, he was in the head of
the engineering school at Michigan State and I met her and dated her and,
uh, you know, nothing dramatic. She didn't think it was dramatic either.
She was looking for some guy.
Well, she found one. Yeah. No, they, those girls managed to find him. I
found that out.
And so you were in the military during the time of the Korean War? Exactly.
Right. No. Fortunately, and I, although I was being that student that I
was, you had your priorities and you, I signed to go to Korea because if
you're going to stay in the military, you got to be in combat if you're
going to go up and rank etc, and everything else. And as I said, I think
because of football and that Colonel c having me meet General Fritch
assigning me there. I didn't go to Korea. I was stationed there at Fort
Benning for the two years, which probably could have saved my life. So why
did you decide not to stay in the military because of that Major Rose?
Major rose II, I wanna be diplomatic and to the camera
Major Rose was one of those people that really made it aggravating. I'll
give you a super example. Like I was post duty officer, one of the times
when I was a first lieutenant and I just walked in and I was taken over
for him because he was the previous duty officer the day before. So I'm
taking and I walk in and I don't know why I did it when you're under arms
in the military and you have your hat on, you keep your hat on. Well, I, I
took it off for some reason. And boy, did he climb all over me? Gosh,
almighty. I mean, when I say climbed all over me and all I did, I put the
hat back on, stood there and kept my mouth shut. And then another incident
was that uh I uh the latter part of my career there, I was a school
brigade, athletic and recreation officer and we had a golf outing that I
used to put on. It was all for officers, major roles demanded. I had the
Kelloway select holes where you going to get the special score on. He
wanted to know the holes prior to that. So he ended up winning it because
of his attitude, etcetera and everything else. But anyway, there he was
probably an exception more so in the, because I've met a lot of great
people in the military.
So you were looking to leave the military when you heard about Dan Devine.
Yeah. And he called me up, Duffy doty called me up and I uh he's called
Danny Vine. I called Danny Vine and Dan just, he was an assistant in
Michigan State. He came here and uh accepted the job at Arizona State
College at that time. And uh my son, Dan was only about maybe two months
old. So my wife and Danny went back to East Lansing where her parents
lived and stayed there till I got organized and I drove and I drove and I
drove it. I'll never get coming through the, the Salt River Canyon. That's
the first time I've ever seen anything like that. I, I really thought it
was a grand canyon. Say I had no concept of Salt River Canyon. Then the
real kicker was when I came in through my, I came into Globe Arizona,
Miami, Arizona. And I thought it was, you know, they're, they're mining
towns and I thought to myself, God Almighty, I went to college. I said, am
I getting into this mining business again? You know, then I drove through
Superior and that was it. I, when I saw Superior, I thought to myself,
what the heck have I got myself into. But anyway, and the funny part about
it, I came into Tempe on a Sunday. There wasn't anybody around college
students, they're still sleeping, they're not studying, they're sleeping.
And I drove, I drove right through Tempe and I ended up about 24th street.
There wasn't much between Tempe and 24th street. And there was a police
officer sitting there. And I said, by the way, I says, I'm looking for
Arizona State College. He said, where did you come from? I said, well, I
was route 60. He said, well, you're on the right road. He said, just go
back and when you go around the turn which were damaged, auditorium is now
, he said, you'll see a dormitory there and that's the campus. Now the
Gospel Act. And, and then he said, also when you go by there, you'll see
the football stadium.
I drove back there. I went and I came down in the May. I was just partly
in the mesa for that farm. There used to be a farm down there. I'm trying
to think it belonged to a su etcetera and everything else. And I stopped
and asked them, I said, by the way, I'm looking for Arizona State College.
He said, where you come from? He said, you went right by it. He said,
when you go in town, he said, don't go into town. If you go to town,
you're going too far. He said there's going to be, he talked about
Scottsdale Road. He said that he, the signal light you're going to hit.
And then the next, there was no signal light on college at that time, it
was just, you go through it. So I came back and he said there's a
dormitory there on the right side and right next to it is the football
field. I drove and that was Hayden Hall. I, I looked, well, that's a
dormitory. So I, I turned right and I'm looking for the football field. I
get down through the campus. That's when college went through the campus.
And it was on a Sunday I mentioned previously and they were having mass
at the new, not new center. What's the church
come to me momentarily. Anyway,
just the church there. And I saw the people coming out and I said, I
stopped and I could see now I'm going through the campus and I asked the
person, I said, where's the, where's the football field? He said, go back
and he said it just, it'll be on your left hand side now, playing at
Michigan State, playing at Michigan, playing at Notre Dame. You know, the
stadium is a little different to say the least in Goodwin Stadium. So I
got in, I saw this in, in the back portion which would be the, the west
portion of the Goodwin Stadium at that time was a dormitory and so was the
east side. And, uh, I stopped and parked there and I went and walked, I
went and looked at the stadium. I couldn't believe it. Our high school
field was bigger than that thing. And that's when I said to myself, what
the heck have I got myself into? And that was Goodwin Stadium. And so that
was my first experience in the Student Union wasn't there. They were just
building a building and uh all of the old, old buildings were there. But
uh in 1955
was, it was in February, February the sixth. You didn't come in in the
middle of the summer. Well, no, because if I'd have come in in the middle
of the summer, I'd have probably went back home because of the heat. But
no, III I was really impressed. Uh And as I said, we got organized and I,
we rented a little house and then my wife finally came. In fact,
ironically, Gilbert Katy, who was one of the vice presidents who I have a
great deal of admiration for he and Doctor Gamage and Jimmy Kreisman, who
Jimmy was head of the Jimmy and I were in a reserve together Gilbert Katy
, who was a vice president at the time. He was a bachelor and I came on
campus and went over to the office and in the football office. Clyde Smith
was the athletic director and Dandy mine, the coach and Gilbert Katy
suggested that I live with him. Right on orange. It wasn't or didn't go
through at that time. It was right where that, uh, I think the law
building is now. He, he had, he called it the Hula shack. When the wind
blew, the house would sway back and forth. So I lived with Gilbert, uh,
for about, I'd say in that upper apartment for I, I'd say a good three
months till my wife finally came out. And uh the university provided us
with a uh little dinky home on orange and we were there, then we moved
into a, a little apartment down around a street corner there from the
campus. But no, my first impression and then after I got, you know,
acquired some knowledge about the institution, I was really impressed with
it. How much, how much were
you really want me to tell you? I was an assistant football coach. I was
making 4500 bucks. And, uh, and the amazing thing to me about it was that
I was making more as a first lieutenant in the infantry than I was
coaching here at Arizona State. So, and they didn't provide cars or
anything else like it like they do now. So. Well, you know, it was a shock
and I was a young kid so it didn't make a great deal of difference. You,
you, I've learned to accept your responsibilities and I really enjoyed it.
Well, tell us a little about how your career progressed then. Uh, what
was that first year? Well, you know, I was the thing that impressed me
about the football program here. I'm talking about 55 56 57. They had some
great athletes here, Dave Grable. I can talk about one of the greatest
athletes ever seen. He died here a couple of years ago, Gene Mitcham who
is still alive. He is in pretty bad shape with cancer. We had a national
championship team at Michigan State. We only lost one game in three years.
But those two guys and John Jenkins was another one. They were here, they
were juniors and one was a senior. They could have played at Michigan
State. They were that good. I was really impressed with the football
talent here, Bobby Mogao and a number of the athletes were just remarkable
and we had a great deal of success. We, you know, we were in a border
conference at that time and that was Harden Simmons, West Texas, Texas
Western then the only northern schools and New Mexico was in it. And I
think the only northern school was in it was BYU, but I was impressed with
the talent and we only lost one game, one or two games, ironically lost
guess who the U of A 7 to 6. And I used to get so irritated at them and
I'll get into that shortly. But as I said, I was impressed with the talent
, then Dandy Vine, he got the head coaching job at the University of
Missouri. And uh Jimmy Creman and Doctor Gamage called me over and I was
just a young kid. I think I was 28 years old or 29 and asked me, you know
, if I would be interested in being a head coach. I said, well, I've
committed myself to coach Divine and I said, uh, let me go talk to him and
I'll see, you know how he feels about it. Well, I went to his house and he
lived right across the street from me and his, his wife, Mary Jo,
I went and talked to him. I said, Dan, I said, Doctor Gamage and Jimmy
Creman wanted me to talk to you about releasing me to be the head coach,
but he got irritated. He said, oh, you're too young, et cetera. And of
course he wanted me to go to Missouri, which is understandable and being a
stubborn pack that I am. I and I, and, and, and although his wife
intervened and she says, Dan, she used to call me Poncho. She said, how
could you do that? She said, you got the job at Michigan State when you're
just as young as Poncho was. And so he, he rented and he said, well, go
ahead and talk to him if you want to. So that's how I got the job. And,
and as I said, I'll never get that, Jimmy Kreisman was remarkable. He did
a lot for me in many ways because we were in reserves together. And
so I became the head coach in 1958
and we had a lot of success prior to that in the first year. And of course
, I've taken over for Dan
and we had a lot of experienced players, etc. So they were expecting us to
be extremely successful and I was a young kid and we lost a couple of ball
games and I became the Frank Kush that I'm supposed to be nasty. Rascal.
Then we didn't lose a game after that.
But we, I'll never forget the funny part about it. We're playing uh
Detroit University. We had a great kid by the name of Leon Burton as good
of a football player as I've ever seen. And uh yeah, he was, and he had
been recruited by Dan and he had an attitude problem. It's not bad, but,
you know, enough to irritate me, which is could be very easily. And so we
go up to Detroit and I benched him. I didn't play him and uh we won the
ball game and he shaped his act up. We didn't lose a game after that. We
only lost two games a year. So we were fortunate. The thing that impressed
me about our program is we had a lot of good athletes. And to me, college
football is about recruiting, you have to recruit, then you got to be
teachers. And I thought we had coaches that were exceptionally good
teachers. So the youngsters are going to progress and improve and we had a
great deal of success
through our career. But what bothered me also is we did not get any
recognition. This is in the 50 because we had some great athletes like
Gene Mitch and those guys, they went and played pro ball, but they didn't
get any recognition. And I think it was attributed to the,
we were sandwiched between the PAC 10 at that time, still pack 10, the
Rocky Mountain schools, Colorado, etc and everything else. And down in
this area, down here, we didn't get a great deal of recognition. Then we
played night games. Well, we didn't get any recognition back east because
we're probably still playing in the Sunday. Paper probably was out on the
street back there. So very little recognition. But as I said, we had a lot
of great athletes and we made progress and it started getting me irritated
because we had some great football players in the sixties like Joe Zuger
who went to Canada, we had a lot of kids winning the pro ball, Canada and
also Charlie Taylor, give you an example. Charlie Taylor was a, didn't
receive any recognition. He, he was the number one draft choice of the
Washington Redskins. That's how great. He was Tony Lark in the same
backfield was the number one draft choice for the Baltimore Colts at that
time. So I felt sorry for a lot of the great athletes because of my
previous experience in Michigan State, seeing the type of athletes we had
there when we were national champs, etc, we had the same kind of not as
many possibly, but we had the same type of athletes at Arizona State. And
, and it was a gradual process. We were in a border conference, those
institutions that I mentioned previously. Then in the mid 60 s, we went
into the W conference which were basically northern schools in a
combination of the Southern schools that I mentioned previously and Utah
came in Wyoming came in Colorado State and Brigham Young,
but the players were picked up for the Pros. Yeah, but I'm talking about
recognition for college, all Americans, etcetera and everything else like
Gene Mitchum to me was as good of a football player has ever seen Dave
Grable, Bobby Mogao. They all went and played pro ball but they did not
get any college recognition. And again, because of the media, et cetera
and everything else and the contrast, the, the time when did you move out
of Goodwin stadium, we moved out of Goodwin Stadium in 1958. We played our
first game against University City of Hawaii there in 1958 and then we
moved up to Sun Devil stadium which held 30,000 people at that time. All
we had was the two sidelines. And I think it was a great factor. In
addition to that, I might add the greatest accomplishment I thought was
made was us becoming a university in 1958. Also. In fact, I remember those
rascals from down south, you know, it was proposition 200 to change the
name from Arizona State College to Arizona State University. They were
adamantly opposed to it. In fact, Dr Gage, who was our president, Jimmy
Kreisman, Gilbert Katy and the various deans we only had, I think three
deans Overman. I got a mental block on it. Uh The Lee Thomas, the
engineering dean and then uh uh who was the uh uh education dean
Glenn Overman was the business school.
Anyway, we went, I went with them on about 22 trips all through the state
getting the people to vote. We spoke at luncheons, dinners, etc doctor
gaming must have gone on 30 or 40 with Jimmy Kreisman getting the people
to vote. Yes, for proposition 200. Well, those rascals right behind Dr G
and his staff was Doctor Harville, the U A president saying no, there
should only be one university in the state of Arizona. And you know, I was
kind of a young kid. I thought these are supposed to be educated people
and they're prohibiting others from becoming, you know, respectable etc,
but anyway, it passed. But the interesting thing about it was during
football season as elections are in November, they burnt no 200 big block
letters right in the center of the football field. And that just
infuriated us that much more.
They did it up here on our stadium. It was our stadium that they did it in.
Right. And we were in a new stadium and, uh, they burnt no 200 right in
the middle of the stadium.
They're idiots. That's how they managed to do it.
Well, that's what they did. You know, how college kids are they? You know
, I, I'm sure, I don't know, I don't think it was their president because
I don't know if he was able to do that kind of manual work. He passed away.
So I could say that
it was a big issue, believe me, because it went on to the ballot and it
was voted unanimously to make Arizona State College now. Arizona State
University, which I thought was great.
You were the, I was the head coach that year. Right. Yeah, it must have
been a big year. A lot of things. Yes, it was, it was a big year,
principally in my opinion to the name change, which I think was the most
significant thing. And then we won some football games, which was helpful
but not, not a name change, of course. But I think it was, you know,
that's what you're paid for. You're paid to win
and let's stop here for a second here. The noisy street.
Yes, please. If you
do, you want me to continue with this in my hands? I don't have it in the
comfortable either way. It doesn't make a difference to it. You're talking
, you know, that your first year as head coach, the name change? What
about moving into Sun Devil Stadium? Well, you know. Yes, it was because,
you know, we didn't have any locker rooms up at Sun Devil Stadium. We used
to take called the Blue Beetle. We used to take the bus up to the stadium
before the game and after the game, in fact, one of the first games we
played up there, we lost up there and we're coming down and we changed
clothes, etcetera and old Goodwin Stadium and to take the showers, etc
because already showers at Sun Stadium in the first three or four years.
But anyway, we lost to Wichita and never forget this and I'm irritated to
say the least we didn't play. Well, it was my fault. So we came down the
Blue Beetle down right through the fans, et cetera and everything else
coming through the campus and our guys are laughing and I'm getting
irritated and so we get down to Goodwin Stadium and they're changing their
clothes and we have our prayer. Thank God, nobody got hurt, et cetera. And
they're giggling everything I said, ok, get your doggone pads on. I'm
gonna go find out who wants to play. I had to put their pads on. We went
and ran in scrimmage after the game. And the, the interesting thing about
it, the Wichita coach was Bill Purcell who's not the head coach of the
Dallas Cowboys. And he brings that up. He said I've never worked, of
course, they were unloading. Also in Goodwin Stadium, we use the same
lockers. He said they're leaving and we're out there scrimmaging Saturday
after the ball game. So that's a memorable moment for Arizona State
football players. But, uh, I, I was really, as I said, uh, eventually just
like anything else, you know, things progress and improve, et cetera and
then Sun Devil Stadium became larger and they had in different segments.
99,000
and then the 70 something 1000. It is now hard to believe today with all
the
new show. No, at that time, no, they didn't have showers or locker rooms.
In fact, we used the locker rooms down at the old Goodwin Stadium
and the guy that drove the bus was Andy, I wish I could think of his name.
He was in the, uh, and uh, he, he, we, we used to call it the Blue Beetle
because he used to take us up to Tonna Ona also. Well, tell me about that
was something you did, you know, uh, this is about 1959 or so. I, uh I
have three boys I only had two at the time. The youngest guy wasn't born
yet. And our, all of our, ironically, all of our coaches had sons when I
say all, there's only five coaches, all had sons. So we used to go up to
Tanaz Ona. They used to use it as a, uh, uh, Fred Mortenson's grandfather
, Mr Mortenson used to have Mormon missions up there, et cetera and
everything else. And we went up there and the guy said, it's a great place
to fish and take kids. We went up there, we were fishing on tunnel creek
which just runs right adjacent to the field and we were up there in my
high school football team used to go to a preseason training camp. It used
to be the old Pittsburgh Steelers camp camp Hamilton in Pennsylvania. It's
about seven miles from my home from the town and I, and I used to love it
there, you know, you ate well, et cetera and everything else. And, and I'm
thinking when we're up there fishing and horsing around, this would be a
great place. Camp Hamilton. And so what, and the interesting thing about
it was that, uh, they were building the road between Payson and Coles
Ranch Tanner, brother, construction company. And I went and talked to the
foreman. I said, by the way, I introduced myself, I said, we have this
field down here and I want to know if you could help us to grade it, et
cetera. You know, you didn't have any money, et cetera and everything else.
So he said, well, let's go take a look at it. So the old road down from
Coles Ranch down the field was there's still some buildings there, cetera
house. And he said, why don't you meet me here Saturday morning? And he
got one of these big carry all machines to just pick up dirt, etcetera and
everything else. And we had to hold the wires up, going down to that fence
down there. Now, I didn't ask permission from anybody. So that's a typical
young kid. They graded it. In fact, uh I don't know if you've ever been to
Tanaz Ona. It, well, at that time, the upper end of the field where you
first come in was only about 30 yards wide and the, the other end was
about 40. They pulled that whole hill down with that big carrier. Then the
interesting thing about it is that I had a friend that, uh had Kentucky
Bluegrass in New Mexico. He gave us the free grass. I still haven't asked
the university permission yet. And so I did all my homework from the
standpoint of what the weather was like and how conducive would be up
there for the players to be in a cool atmosphere. So I went and after we
did all of this gutted graded, leveled off. In fact, we put barbed wire
fence also to keep the cattle off of because it was an open area. Cattle
come in anywhere else. So now I go talk to Clyde Smith, the athletic
director. He doesn't know we did this thing. So II I talked to him and he
, he was opposed to it dramatically. Doctor Richardson was the acting
president at the time. So I went to talk to Doctor Richard, you know,
stubbornness, young kid. And, uh, he said, have you talked to Clyde Smith
? And I, and I said, yes, he wasn't opposed to it. And I said, I'd
appreciate it if you talked to him. Well, they called, they had a meeting
and they decided not to do it. That didn't prohibit this guy. Lynn Laney
and Od Miller were voter regents in Phoenix and one of them was a son
angel. So I went and talked to him and I had all my homework done. The
heat and the contrast the players could recover after everything else. And
I'll never forget Lynn Laney said to me, he said, have you talked to the
NCAA with it? I says, no, but I can. So I called Walt Barris who was at
the NCAA and I told him that we had was university property. We had this
field up there. We wanted to go up there and practice and everything else.
He said, is there any outside resources from booster groups etc? And I
said, no, this is strictly, in fact, the university didn't put any money
in it was us coaches working at it. So, anyway, so he sent me a telegram
authorizing it. I give it to Lynn Laney. Two days later, I get a Clyde
Smith. His office is right across from, like he said to me, he said, you
know, I don't think that'd be a bad idea to go to camp on.
I'll never forget it. And so that's how we got camped on his own. But I'll
tell you what, the first year up there there's got to be 60. It rained and
it rained and it was like a quagmire and that filled because we had
planted fresh grass and the roots weren't that well established, et cetera.
And when I say it was just all mud. And so we had big utility poles there.
I put spikes in the utility poles to put ropes. So we had the players
pull it to level it off and then of course, it dried as quickly as
anything else does up there. And so that was our first experience up in
camp to and it's a great place. And then the other worst experience was in
the seventies when we had that fire up at Tonto Creek in that area, we had
to get out of there out of the backside where the present road is going
into to Zona. That's how we got out of there and the buses couldn't get in
and everything else. But it was a tragedy in many respects, not for any of
us, but the people trying to get down from say, Pa and that down into
Phoenix, but we had, it's a great place for preseason training and that
was all thanks to your inspiration and it wasn't inspiration. It was
stubborn, Polish attitude. Get it done, you know, and that's where, that's
where I would start as a kid. You know, you get things done, you have a
responsibility accountability and get it done and then ask for permission.
Ok? Maybe that'd be because changing everything there.
Um What are some of your other, your key memories of events of your
coaching career? Well, you know, the bowl games, uh you know, we, in 1968
we had great teams 69 but we were not permitted to play in any bowl games
because the border regions had definitely decided neither of Arizona
schools are gonna go to any ball game because some previous problems they
had. Well, 1968 we're a pretty good football team and we have some great
football players and now the U of A is good. So they get the board. The U
of A was in my opinion, control the border regions. I still think they do
and you guys can't afford to say that, but I can, it doesn't make any
difference to me. But anyway, so what they did decide that they can go to
ball games. So down at El Paso, the Sun Bowl, our athletic director, Clyde
Smith and their athletic, Dick Clawson talked with the Sun Bowl people and
they said, ok, the winner of the U of A and Arizona State game will be
invited to the ball game. Well, the week before the game, say like we
played Saturday and then we're gonna play them the following Saturday that
Monday, the Darryl Mudra was the coach down there. He told his ath
athletic director, Dick Clawson to tell the Sun Bowl people take us now or
not at all. And they kind of pressed the panic button. The Sun Bowl
selected them the week prior to the game and it just infuriated us to say
the least and we just kicked the pants off. I called pardon the expression
, I called the dogs off that we were beating them badly and I wanted to
embarrass him that much more by not running the score up on him. And that
was the Ultimatum Bowl. And then the interesting thing about it. A couple
of years later, we get an invitation to play in the Peach Bowl down in
Georgia. We have a good football team. We have some Spagnola JD Hill. I
can mention all the players, the Malones. We were real talented Harris and
so we get down there and play, we had to buy our way into the game when I
say buy our way, we had to buy 15,000 tickets and a lot of the boosters
went with us and they gave the extra tickets to military etc and
everything else. People in that area. So we went down there, I never
forget flew tw we had boosters with us. We beat North Carolina. I think it
was something like 46 to 28. We were behind and got our act together and
finally won the ball game. But on our way back, Jack Stewart, who was the
owner of Camel back in was on a plane with us and he was sitting next to
me. He said, you know, coach, he said this is ridiculous that we have to
buy our way into a bowl game. We're going to start our own bowl game and
that's how the Fiesta Bowl got started in 1971. We played in the first
Fiesta Bowl game against Florida State and won it. I think something like
48 to 35 or something like that, 48 to 37. And we had a great football
team. So did they. And so that's how the Fiesta Bowl got started in 1971.
Jack Stewart.
Yeah, we did because we had good football teams. We played in 71 72
73
and 74. We didn't play in 75 was a great one against Nebraska. In fact,
Nebraska was, this is another one that irritates me is that Nebraska was
ranked in the top 10. We were, we were in about eighth or ninth. They were
sixth or seventh, et cetera. They beat Oklahoma
and they had one loss. They come in here and we beat them and I thought we
should have been number one. But what transpired is that they gave it to
Oklahoma, but that probably is the most gratifying game in many respects.
My son Danny kicked three field goals and Fred Mortenson, they were both.
Tempe was a quarterback that came in for Dennis Brown when he got hurt
and he scored a touchdown, went for two points. And so those two guys from
Tempe High Buffaloes were responsible for that win. That win was probably
the most significant win from the standpoint of national recognition. I
remember the Chicago Tribune, I still have the copy. Now they know who the
Sun Devils are and you know that that's a good example I'm talking about
from 55 to this is 75. Now we're finally being recognized, you know,
that's just think of all the athletes who are in that period that didn't
receive recognition, which I thought that they deserved. So as I said,
that 75 Fiesta Bowl game was probably the most significant game for the
Sun Devils. From the standpoint of national recognition, continued
recognition. We, we got to the top of the mountain at that game, right?
When you started the Fiesta Bowl, did you started it so that you had a
bowl to play in? But did you think it was gonna become the, the big bowl
game. Oh, no, no, you, you have no imagination be, I mean, I, when I said
, I don't mean, you know, I mean, I individually you, you go do what you
have to do and then we played after we played Florida State in the first
one and I think the second game we played, uh, Pittsburgh and they had a,
they had a good football team, they had a great running back, Tony Dorson.
And then we played Missouri, ironically, the Missouri head coach was a
former Arizona State graduate al on Ario. And he had been there with Dandy
Vine and we had a great game, Danny White who was a great quarterback, in
my opinion. Uh, we did a lot of audible. He made, we made 770 some yards,
which is astronomical in any today's or yesterday's football because he
audible so much and picked them apart and Danny White and, and we had some
great athletes and so we won that ball game and, uh, and III, I think it
was very significant from the standpoint of continued recognition.
I know I've interviewed some other people that talked about starting the
Fiesta Bowl. Carl Eller and Stevie Eller. And, um, yeah, yeah, but Jack
Stewart was a good, yeah, Carl Eller was part of that. Uh, let's see,
there's a, uh, I'm, I'm trying to think of the other guy. I talked to him
periodically. Uh, there were quite a few people who were really loyal and
the great thing about Phoenix at that time, in my opinion, the people were
very tied into Arizona State. It was the thing to go to the football game
, Saturday night. Now I'm, I'm talking about, uh, bus loads. And, uh, in
addition to that, uh, the country club, people used to come to the Sun
Devil football games and go back to the country club after Jim Myers, I
was thinking about Jim Myers was on that original board, but they uh no,
that game really and a su at that, that brought the community together.
And, you know, we didn't have the competition for many pro sports as they
do today. And then eventually the Suns came in, there wasn't that much
competition, but then of course you got hockey and baseball and football
at the pro level. So I think that really depletes from the standpoint of
attendance, et cetera. Anything else because of the revenue factor
when you talked a little bit about the competition between the U of A, was
that a factor too in getting the Phoenix people involved with? Well, I
think that's still animosity still there. In my opinion, the separation,
anything above the Gila River is Arizona State and anything below that is
U of A and I still feel very strongly that it's the same attitude. I think
it's a great rivalry. I mean, there's nothing, you know, I would say
there's no animosity physically, etc, I think it's good for the community.
It's good for the state and they've had a great program. We've had great
programs and there's no question in my mind, it's what collegiate
athletics is all about at any level. Are there any particular things about
that rival that, that come out to your mind
losing? You don't wanna lose, Tom. I'll give you the classic though. My
first year in 1958 I'm, and I'm a young kid at that time. The student
union was relatively small and the whole campus was small and the faculty
used to go and have coffee in the morning periodically all the time. And
we are said, now we lost the U of A, I don't know, seven or six or
something like we lost by one point. I, I could write a book on how it
happened. But anyway, we're in a student union and we're sitting around
and doctor Gamage comes in and he was kind of a stoic individual, but by
the same token, very, very bright and knowledgeable and everything else.
And, and he says, coach, he said, he said, what are you so depressed about
? I said, doctor, you know, I, it was my first year as a head coach, I, I
was really depressed to say the least. And I said, you know, I, I just
hate losing to those people, et cetera and everything else. He said, don't
be concerned about that. It's going to be significant to us. I said,
Doctor Gamage, how could you say that? He said you and now the Board of
Regents are going to be happy. We'll get our appropriations because they
beat us of football. I couldn't believe it. I thought to myself. Doctor, I
said, I can't believe you, we gotta beat them. He said, relax. He said
there's more truth than that than you can imagine. And, and I felt that
and I still felt it very strongly like them getting to med school up here.
Yeah.
What about recruiting players? You talked about your recruiting in Arizona
? Not only Arizona, the good thing that we did, we recruited Arizona very
heavy when we first came here, there were only 52 high schools, some of
them played six man football and some of them played love men football and
, and football has, uh improved dramatically in the state of Arizona,
principally because of the population, but it's not like California et
cetera and everything else. We used to recruit Clyde Smith, who was the
head coach here previously used to recruit Pennsylvania. Me being from
Pennsylvania, he took me back there and showed me around the different
high school coaches, both in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. So we recruited
, we recruited out of state now and then we also recruited California. But
the question mark about California was Dandy Vine was very knowledgeable
recruiter and we used to have a staff meeting and all of the coaches are
recruiting. There's only four of us including Dan would be five and we
have two coaches recruiting in California, Tommy Fletcher and Bob Carry.
And, uh, Dan Devine would say Southern Cal UCLAK, CAL or Stanford after
him, if they're after him and, you know, on a scale of 1 to 10, say 89 or
10, he said you're wasting your time because he said they're gonna want to
stay there. So that's why we, we recruited a lot in Midwest. Eventually I
got to the point we recruited Florida. We recruited Alaska and I really
enjoy it principally because you, you can convince the players you're
going to have an opportunity to play. And we, we, in my opinion, the great
thing about college coaching, number one, as I mentioned, you got to be a
recruiter and then you got to be a teacher and a disciplinarian. And so I
think our coaches did a commendable job from those aspects and we were
able to take athletes even if we recruited kids in California. Say Mike
Haines is a good example, Bruce Hardy is another good example. Bruce Hardy
was on the cover of Sports Illustrated as the high school athlete in the
country. Well, he was a good quarterback. We also had a great quarterback
in Dennis Sprout. So we talked to Bruce Hardy about being a tight end,
which he was reluctant to do being a quarterback and being on the cover of
sports eventually he did and he was ended up Miami Dolphins number six
round draft choice and he still strokes me about it. He's coaching in
Miami and Mike Hanes is another good example. We would take athletes and
do a good job of coaching. Mike Hanes was a high school quarterback and a
receiver. We take him to repent of zone and we see them see how good he is
as a freshman, freshman were eligible that year, Fred Glick was our
defensive secondary coach and we debated on where to play him. And we had
some great receivers in the likes of John Jeffer and Larry Mucker etc. We
said, well, let's put him. Fred said, let's put him at free safety. It's
not as complicated, he can learn it. He played first string for us as a
freshman all because he was an athlete in good teaching. And then after
his first year, every time we played him at corner, which means he's going
to be one on one with their best receiver and he just had a great career
as an all American did punt returns, went on and played all with an all
pro player both up in New England and Oakland Raiders. So that's what we
did a great job of teaching and, and, and some people may say coaching,
but to me, the significant factor the youngster is going to make progress
, he's going to improve. He's going to have an opportunity.
You had a reputation as a tough coach. Y how did you get that? That's the
way I lived.
I was brought up that way. When you come from a family of coal mining town
, you come a family of 15 Children, you better be tough to survive. You
know, the interesting thing about it. My dad, we really tough with the
boys. I never seen him yell or touch the girls or my mother. But boy, if
we goofed up any of the boys goofed up, not the younger ones, like I was
young one, but I grew when I was 15, I was a rebel. But the interesting
thing about it, I, I my concept of coaching, I love to see people be
successful. Even today, it was one of the most difficult things I had in
coaching. I thought everybody I recruited was going to be a great
superstar, but I found out no, you got to recognize their limitations if
you're doing a proper job of coaching and everything else. So I'd love to
see people be successful now and I'll say this about being tough on them.
The more ability that you had, the more I expected from you. And I put
more pressure on you. It was not necessarily verbal, just making sure you
do the drills properly, getting on you, criticizing you just simple steps.
Like if you're going to pull, you're going to take a short trap I want
you to take a right front step. If you're going to trap off to the side,
it's right flat. And if you goofed up the old man's going to get on you.
No, I, I, the great thing I enjoyed about it is that I'd love to see
people be successful. You know, I have three sons. They are all successful
and I have two granddaughters and they're, again, that goes from parents
to Children etc, and I mentioned previously, all of my brothers and
sisters are all successful in their own. Right. So yes, I was tough and
I'd love to see people be successful and if it takes me being somewhat of
an ogre to get them to do that, I'm going to do it.
I heard a story about sometimes that you would have players locked up in
the Tippee jail. You know, I, I'll give you an example. No, I, I, my,
my first responsibility as a student athlete when I was playing was social
responsibilities. You didn't go and drink, you didn't, you got caught,
you're going to pay the price for it. I felt the same way at Arizona State
because you're going to get kids and some kids we recruited came from what
I call dysfunctional families. So number one, their responsibility don't
embarrass the program, don't embarrass the institution, don't embarrass
your family. I'm talking about social responsibilities, whatever it may be
and you, you don't have bad contact and the next thing was academics. If
you didn't go to class, the old man's gonna take you and run you through
the desert. And I figure they, they're either gonna hate me more and
they're gonna say, ok, instead of their running, I'm gonna go in class. If
you cut class, I'd get all over you. Those, that was the first priority.
Social. Second was academics and then third was athletics. And I, and I
still feel very strongly because when my first experience, when I was a
student in Michigan State, it was, there's a lot of veterans come in from
the Second World War. Some of those guys would go to class. And I thought
, what the devil are you in college for? If you're not going to go to
class? And that's the way I felt about our guys. And I still feel very
strongly about that. And, you know, if you don't have enough initiative,
you're going to have that desire to want to succeed and it's academically
, socially and athletically.
And the,
did you feel like most of those students were coming to college? Thinking
they're going to go to the Pros? No, not, not. Fortunately. I think it's
changed dramatically like when I was in college and I said we only lost
one game in three years for national, none of us thought about going to
Pro Bowl because pro athletics were not that significant in our society
monetarily at that time in what has happened, in my opinion, over the
years, there's so much emphasis on kids going to college and then going
into pro in football, less than 2% will ever. College graduates to play
football will ever go play pro ball basketball. It's 1.3%. So the chance
of them being pro athletes or baseball, it's even less. It's 1%. So the
chance of them being pro athletes by going to college are relatively
remote because of the numbers, et cetera and everything else. And I coach
pro ball. So I have a pretty good both in Canada and the United States.
And a lot of times they come in with the misconception and believe me, the
quality and quantity of talent in pro sports is just unbelievable. I mean
, they're, believe me, they're all great. And then if you're, you're a
good high, you're a good college coach, excuse me, good college football
player, you go to pro ball, the chance of you making it are relatively
remote. And so, and the same thing is true from high school kids to being
successful at the college level, but you know, you retain them et cetera
and everything else. And that's why in my opinion, the priorities were
social responsibilities, academic responsibilities and then you do the
teaching and then the kids will improve. Well, tell me about the story of
you having some athletes locked up in the jail. No, what happened was that
we had on which I could think of the judge's name. I'm sure he's passed
away. He used to call me if we had guys who got in trouble. In fact, we
had a couple of guys, Pat Apple Hayes mckee and I'll think of the two
others. They got Mickey Mouse problems, drinking, et cetera and everything
else. And
I, the judge called me. He says, Frank, he says, I've got three, there's
four players. He said I got him in jail here. This is, say like Friday
night. And, uh, so I went down and talk to him, et cetera and everything
else. And one of them kind of got a little smart. So I went and talked to
the judge. I said, let him in here until Monday morning and I'll come and
pick him up.
They were, you know, they were in street clothes, et cetera. They're all
four in the same cell. Then we had some of them that got involved. Uh,
they were gonna, I don't think they were gonna steal something. They, they
gonna take something out of a car that was parked there. Well, I got a
call from the judge again and I went down there and you know how kids are
? He said I didn't do it. He didn't do everything else. I said, I'll tell
you what, I'm walking out of here. I'm gonna come back, I'm gonna walk to
that door. I'm gonna go out and come back and whoever did it, you either
tell the truth or you're gonna stay in here. Boo I came back immediately
to one guy, Pat says I did a coach, you know, and, and I climbed all over
and I told the judge, I said, let him stay in here over the weekend. Now.
That's, and then the judge was great from the standpoint of understanding
youngsters and disciplines. And believe me, when you resolve that problem
early, they're going to learn a lesson in the same way and you set the
standard for other athletes also. And, and I, I believe me, I disciplined
some of them and I'll give you an example. We went in the sixties. That's
when marijuana first start come out and everything else, we go out and
play Wyoming. I find out that we had four of our guys that have been
smoking marijuana. We lose the ball game because they're not into it. I
find this out about me about two weeks later. And so we have a meeting and
I'm irritated at the assistant coaches for not letting me know because
with the bed check that I had anything else. So our team physician was
doctor Scott. And I talked, I didn't know enough about drugs and
specifically marijuana. And I talked to doctor Scott and he said, well,
let's talk to them. We sat down and talked to him, gave him all four of
them an opportunity to resolve their problems before the end of the school
year. And, uh, two of them didn't, two of them didn't. I got rid of the
other two really got rid of themselves to be honest with you. But no, so
to me, as a head coach, you have to be a far away from home to the
youngsters, in my opinion, and you have to care for him in, in, in a, in
an, like my dad cared for us and carrying meant you do the appropriate
thing and if you don't do it, you suffer the consequences for it. And that
was my concept when I recruited a kid, I'd tell their parents, I'm going
to be the father away from home. And if you don't think your son could
withstand that type of behavior, then he doesn't want to come to Arizona
State and I still feel the same way.
Yeah. Yeah, we get together again. I enjoy it. That's one of the great
factors that I've acquired over the years. The association. In fact, I
have one coming in today
and then I'm just trying to think of yesterday who Ricardo Marquez from
Mexico City, who was a grad assistant for me. He comes up here and we get
together and he comes up here for Christmas and this time of the year and
his wife and they have three Children. And so, no, I, I love the
association I had with the former athletes and coaches. Well, not really.
That's what you are right. Um, let's talk a little bit more about a su
and, um, some of the, the changes from the time you came here, um, Grady
damage was present at the time.
Lady Doctor Gamage. And then, uh, who was right after Homer dorm? Homer
Durham was great. In fact, uh, II, I thought he was a great individual and
then, uh, after Homer was, uh,
mhm.
He lives in my neighborhood.
LA core right now,
Harry.
Yeah. What does that mean? There's an old Polish Proverb. I'll give it to
you in English. The less said the best said
they've gone since I've been here, they've gone since the 80 s. They've
gone through how many presidents for
at least four or five coaches the same way and what I've seen
the turnover is dramatic. You lose a lot of the tradition, you lose a lot
of the loyalty, you lose a lot of the respect for each other. And I, I
give you a super example.
The Washington Redskins were playing here about two years ago. John
Jefferson is on a staff with the Washington Redskins in personnel. They
were coming in say Friday night because we were playing Saturday and then
they're going to play Sunday, uh they were playing the Cardinals
and so I invited John and I start taking him around in the press box and
believe me now, John Jefferson was one of the great all time football
players, in my opinion, in the country and he made a great catch that won
the U of a game, kept us undefeated as set of the, I was surprised that a
number of people were asking who's John Jefferson? Um, m my, my philosophy
is, well, we ought to have a book called Foot or athletics 101 and give it
to all the students. So then the people who work here. But no, and, and I
think, you know, we've lost a lot of that and again, is it bad? It depends
on your side of the fence, you know, uh, and yet on the, I think you lose
that tradition, you lose that sense of loyalty, the closeness. And when I
first came here, I, I think I just about knew every faculty member, there
weren't that many and I knew all the administrators. So you developed a
relationship of intimate personal relationship. Where was your office in
the old gym? In fact, all the offices were there.
They were. No, no. In fact, we had one hall like this and the knowledge
assistant coaches were there and I was in this little cubby hole over here
and Clyde Smith was, he was the athletic, he was in that other cubby hole.
It would take about this whole room to have all of our offices. We're all
the university president, sort of equally supportive of the football team.
Well, I, I was here predominantly with Homer Dorm and, uh, uh, doctor
Gamage. Doctor Gamage, definitely, Doctor Gamage was a pretty sharp
politician and when I say that he knew what had to be done academically,
athletically, et cetera and everything else. And, and, and they had a very
difficult time in my opinion, promoting a sc with the politicians because
believe me, the U of A had pretty good control of the border regions and
everything else. Jimmy Crean was fantastic. And then, uh I, I thought that
Homer Dorm was, it was an exceptionally president that I was associated
with. So II, I was impressed with him. You want to talk a little bit about
the incident when you end up leaving. The less said the best said about
that. That's, you know, who, who cares about it, you know, you're gone.
Yeah. No, that, you know, those things happen and, well, some kid accused
me of uh hitting him and went to trial and I was exonerated and even
though then they let me go and they settled monetarily and then I went to
Canada Baltimore, Indianapolis Colts and that's it. I mean, those things
happen. II, I was here in Arizona at that time and I, I wasn't a big
football ban or anything, but it was a big deal in Arizona. Yeah. Well,
you know, it's here today and gone tomorrow. I'll give you a better
example of what I'm talking about just recently. I was just honored at the
Fiesta ball game the other day. We had a thing and I had to get
identification prior to going, you know, to get in. Now, this is the
gospel truth. This is right in the Activity Center. I go in there to get
mother gonna take a picture and everything else. And I left my uh driver's
license, which I do if you wanna swipe it, it's in a car all the time
anyway. So I leave it and left it in there. I didn't have any ID. And this
young girl, I said, I said, do you work at a su and she said yes. And, uh
, I said, you know, I'm sorry, I don't have my ID with me. But I said, I'm
Frank Kush, the former football coach. He says, I don't, I don't know who
you are. So I start chuckling myself. Don't ever be impressed. In fact,
there was a guy behind me. Now, this is the gospel truth. He's been and he
said, you don't know who he is. He said there's a picture of him on a wall
right over there. And there's a statue of him over there. This poor little
poor girl. She looking up, you know, who's this dumb, dumb. So, I, uh, one
thing don't ever be impressed with what you've done because there's not
too many people that know. Well, it was a shock to the community though
when the university basically fired you. Yeah. Well, that's part of it,
you know, it was, it must have been a shock to you. Believe me? It was
more of a shock to my wife and my Children.
They were devastated but they recovered also.
Did you think when the first accusations were made that it was gonna be
that serious? No, because there wasn't any truth in it. So I wasn't
concerned about
it. Well, you said I punched him on the sidelines. It was after the Woody
Hayes incident in Ohio State the following year and they won't get into it
because people like that create problems. But no, it was one of those
things that occurred. And unfortunately, in my opinion, it devastated a
lot of families.
In what way? Well, you know, when
you're accused of allegations and they are not true and your family
believe you and say all the assistant coaches were going to go all and
their families are going. So it disrupts the entire athletic family, but
that's society. What did you do right after that? Oh, I'll tell you what I
, I worked and this is an interesting one. I, Bob Walker who owned, he's
an engineer. He hired my son Dan, that's Dan is a mechanical engineer and
fires missiles, et cetera and everything else. He presently works for
Motorola when Danny was working for Bob Walker and Bob Walker was a great
booster of a su basketball team and he called me up and he says, by the
way, he says, uh, what are you gonna do, what are you gonna do now? You
know, and I said, well, you know, there's going to be a lawsuit and we
gonna be in court and everything else. He said, why don't you come to work
for me? You know, an engineer. What do I know about engineering? So anyway
, it was called Space Data, which is right here in Tempe. I went and
worked for him but I would say every bit of six months and in sales, etc,
and everything else. And Bill Close called me. And he, he says, uh, Frank
, he said, uh, we'd like to talk to you. Uh, the owner, uh,
Tom Chauncey and I met with Tom Chauncey and, uh, and, uh, Bill and they
said we'd like to have you do television work for me. He said, for me,
he's ignorant. And I said, you know, I said, yes, I've done television,
but I said that's a different field altogether completely. And he said, no
, we'll help you out and everything else. So it is a gospel truth. They
offered me the job. So I went to Bob Walker who had worked for, for six
months. I said, Bob, I said channel 10, Tom Chauncey and Bill Close have
offered me this job to do television work 3 to 5 minutes Monday through
Friday. And, uh, he said, I think you ought to take it. It'd be good for
you. And, and he says, what are they gonna pay? I'm not $16,000.
I was making 45,000 at Arizona State. And Bob Walker when he hired me,
paid me 50,000. He said, I want you to take the job. It would be good for
your family for recognition and getting back into the community, et cetera
and everything else. And I said, Bob, I said, I, I can't do that. I said
no and monetarily, he said, and then I said to him, I said, ok, if you
permit me to come in on Saturdays and Sundays, I'll work and make up for
it and everything else. He said, don't be concerned about that. So he
hired, he had me there. He told me to take the TV job, which I did and,
and I would go work for him on Saturdays and Sundays, which I didn't have
to do anything. And then the other interesting thing about it was that
when I did the television, you talk about a fish being out of water. Oh my
God almighty. And I, Mary Jo West was really helpful to me. Uh She helped
me out dramatically and this guy was there at the time. And so, but the
fascinating thing about it was that I got an opportunity, the Canadian
people came down, Ralph Zaio and one of our former players, Joe Zuger, who
is a punter, was assistant general manager at Hamilton and Ralph Zaio, the
general manager came down and offered me the job to go coach Hamilton tcas
, believe me, I didn't even know where Hamilton was. I took the job
because when I say I, I was out of my element doing the television work.
And so that's how I ended up in Canada. And from Canada, I was there for
one year. We had a great deal of success with the Baltimore Colts and had
marginal success there. Then I took the uh uh and we took the Mayflower
Midnight and moved to Indianapolis Colts and then for a minute, what, what
, why, why were you out of your? Well, it was so much of a contrast than
say, like us sitting here and talking, I'm talking to you the preparation
. I had to prepare everything, then I had to learn to type and, and, and,
and, and, and look good all the time, you know, with the makeup and I'm
about as ugly as I am. I said the makeup didn't help at all. But, but no,
and I, and I was uneasy because as I said, I was trying to be too good,
trying my best instead of being casual and uh you know, just talking like
I would here et cetera and maybe I got a little better bill thought I was
doing a good job but he was just being diplomatic. No, you got better. You
couldn't, you couldn't have gotten any worse. Well, you're not shy. So, no
, no, but no, you had to be diplomatic because and, and, and this is the
gospel truth. You know how you put the teleprompter down there. Most
people for 3 to 5 minutes show, maybe, maybe 34 yards of paper. I must
have had 30 yards of it
all, as I said. And when you talk about a lot of people talk about reborn
Christians, you talk about a reborn coach when they offered me that job in
Canada. I'm here. Like, where's Hamilton? You know? Oh my God. Just get
something that I knew what I was doing. Or I think, I know, I know when
you lose, I don't think you are either. So you went to and I was there for
a year. We had a great deal of success and then they offered me the job at
the Baltimore Colts. I went down there and we were there for two years,
then moved to Indianapolis and I was there for one year. Then I uh took
the job here in the US FL for the Arizona outlaws and the, the, the they
were just starting the US FL and it was quite a contrast and you had
control of it in contrast to what I didn't have in Baltimore and
Indianapolis.
And then what happened after that fell apart? Well, when, when uh when I
came here to the US FL and then, uh well, I was Bob Walker, the fellow
that I was talking about previously bought turf paradise.
So he asked me and I was, I still, when the US FL folded, I still had
three more years of a personal server contract with an exceptionally great
salary. And uh and Bob Walker asked me to help him at Turf Paradise. So I
went out with Bob Walker, Turf Paradise and helped him for about a year
and a half. And then Bob Thomas, who was the president of Arizona Boys
Ranch, which is a residential treatment center for juvenile delinquents
called me and wanted to talk to me and asked me if I would get involved
with them, which I really enjoyed. I was with the Arizona Boys Ranch for
about 10 years and they had a tragedy out there and that created the
demise for the entire program. But uh I, I enjoyed the association out
there. The people were great and the youngsters at one time, we had a
budget of about 28 million and we had over 600 youngsters that uh it's now
called Canyon State Academy. But I, I enjoyed the association in
recruiting or soliciting whatever word you want to use with the families.
And, and it was an eye opener in many ways also because that's where you
really see the dysfunctional families. And we had youngsters from all over
the United States and it was a great program and I still think it's one of
those programs that are necessity and they do the appropriate things from
the standpoint of developing youngsters academically and socially and
responsibilities.
So, some people thought that was, I think when I heard that you were at
Boys Ranch, that was kind of an unusual career move for you. Well, no, no
, I tell you what, because it's still the people business and that's what
I find. That's what I enjoyed about it. I'm talking about with the
families. I'm talking about with the youngsters. I'm talking about with
the staff out there. So it really is very similar. We started a football
program in 1995 and had a great deal of success. It really comes down to
caring about people. And when I say caring, I'm talking about
responsibilities, accountabilities and consequences and that's what it's
all about out there or even as a family. And so I enjoyed it. It was a
great experience and it was, it was easy for me because all I did was
transfer my coaching concepts to these teenage youngsters,
but they're kids. No, no, not really. And I think this is one thing that
we forget in our society. A lot of times we assume college kids are more
mature and they're not and they're teenagers and they're going to be
unstable from the standpoint of all those responsibilities I talked about
and they've got to grow and be accountable in the same way with those
youngsters at the academy. The same philosophy when you left a su in 1979.
Was it, did you ever think that you come back. No, no, no one thing about
me. I'm a realist. What happens when I walk out of here, I'm going to go
out that door. I know that. But no, I, I've never ever tried to project
the future because you have no control of it. And, uh, and I, and I feel
very strongly about that is my philosophy is enjoy life and be a
humanitarian. I want to treat you the way I want to be treated. So that's
when I walk out here. That's my philosophy now as a coach. And I feel very
strongly, that's why we had success because I aquire that nasty and tough
as my dad was, I would try to exemplify the same type of behavior I care
about you, but I'm going to make you be successful when it's socially
academically, etc So again,
it, it's uh not easy at times because you've got to be a,
I won't sit in front of you gals. But no, you've got to be a rascal every
now and then. And there's a certain degree of fear, fear of failure, you
know, whether it's football, whether it's academics, whether it's social,
you in my opinion, have to be fear of failing. Like when I went to, I went
to college, the biggest
factor me in college was fear of flunking out because I never experienced
anything like that just like most kids going in. But I studied hard enough
and made doggone sure I wasn't going to flunk out. And what drove me was
the self motivating because mom and dad wasn't there, the high school
coaches weren't there. And I think the same thing is true, even today,
just as an adult
and I acquired this from my parents. Did you treat others the way you want
to be treated? Ok.
C
pam, I had a couple of questions, Frank Frank, uh, looking back, looking
back, uh would you, would you tell us the uh uh athletes that you coached
? How do you feel about them? And you know, what were they like? And what
are they doing? Well, I, I think all athletes, especially at the
collegiate level, I'm talking about in high school level, you as the head
coach and coaching staff have control of their destiny. When I say their
destiny, I'm talking of being repetitious against. The first thing is
social responsibilities, growth and maturity and learning to be
responsible and accountable. I think it's very significant that you have
that kind of an attitude. And as I said, make those people grow and
develop and you as a coach, teacher, whomever it may be. When I mentioned
those teachers I had at the elementary school, that's what they did. They
cared in a different way. They were, they weren't as pleasant. But yet I
think the same thing is true at any level. But the individuals I'm talking
about, you know, when you look back, individual guys. Can you tell us
stories about, you know, how they change? Well, what you have to look for
, you have to recognize, say you bring a freshman in, ok, you have certain
expectations of that youngster to be a freshman in college no longer act
like a high school kid. Ok? Now he has the responsibilities and you have,
I used to evaluate every one of our players socially and I keep repeating
these same things socially, academically and athletically, we graded every
one of our players. And so again, they made progress, they improve. Now
what you permit them to do, you give them the opportunity to develop on
their own. Now, if they're not developing on their own, then it's your
responsibility to correct them and pardon the expression, you give them
more rope, the more responsible they are. Now we had some youngsters, I
won't mention their names. You have to yank that rope and pull it awful
tight to get them back in line. And those are the youngsters that you're
going to have more problems with. You have the kids like Danny White, they
just grow and mature. Now was I on, would I be after Danny White? Yes, but
he would progress and improve because he knew by us teaching him etcetera
, whether it's football, socially, etcetera, he was going to progress and
he was going to prove it. I think that is the key in my opinion to
coaching and even being a parent knowing that youngster, what he is or she
is capable of doing and you be able to give that person enough of that
information where they grow and develop. And now what happens also is you
cannot give them expectations that they're not capable of handling. And
that's where you as a parent or even as a teacher, in my opinion, are
going to be extremely successful, being able to recognize that individual
difference of everybody in the family or everybody on the team, they're
all a lot alike. And that's one of the most difficult things I had to
learn. It took me five years of coaching to find out everybody's not going
to be a superstar. I had. Then I, to me, I really prided myself on knowing
each and every one of those kids. That's why I see him today. I still
remember their names. I'd say the bulk of them because of that philosophy.
And I think I acquired that basically from my parents, those elementary
school teachers that at Michigan State is they care for you. They want you
to progress, they want you to improve. And then as I said, as you improve
and become more mature, they give you the responsibility of taking
additional responsibility.
Is that answer? Are they some special ones? I mean some names II, I, well
, I'm gonna mention I have to mention the bad ones also.
Well, you know, you, you take the kids. Uh, let's talk about somebody like
a Danny White. He comes from a very solid family and good youngsters gonna
make progress going to improve. He wasn't a great high school quarterback.
He was a great high school basketball player and a track guy and a good,
good football player. Not great. And we recruited him because he's an
athlete and he came from a great family. So he's going to improve. You
don't have to worry about him with discipline. Let's go the other side of
the coin of JD Hill,
JD Hill, super athlete coming out of high school has all kind of abilities.
He's gonna eventually be a number one pro pro football player. JD Hill
came from what I would call a dysfunctional family. He had a child when he
was still in high school. You know, when we had, we had, I had to
discipline him, for example, in his senior year, he had a great junior and
sophomore year. He's, he's going to be a number one draft choice. He got
involved in some mickey mouse problems
socially. I booted him off for a year. I told him, I said, ok, you are
through as a sun devil. You could go to Canada at that time, Canada would
take him, the NFL would not take an underclassman and I said you have that
opportunity or if you want to stay here, I'll get you a job working you. I
, I'll let you have your tuition and fees and you're gonna have to work
for your room and board and you, you're gonna pay your own way for your
room and board. And then if you show that you're responsible and you, I'll
have you back for next year. Football. So then he does everything I want
him to do and next year he's the number one draft choice for Buffalo Bills.
That's a good example. Now has he had problems? Yes, he has. And the
unfortunate now you, you take other people say like the Malones are a good
example for Eli the Malone's both Benny and art Malone Eloy. You know,
they have no concept of the contrast of education in, in Eloy high school
compared to what is required at the college level. And art had a difficult
time because, you know, entrance that he got in and really bright guy.
Eventually, I think he had an eight on AC T test, which is, you know, very
, very low.
He and he by the time he was a senior went into graduate, ended up going,
he had a 28 on the AC T test because of the background. And now art was
again, came from a indigent type of family. So his mom and dad both died
of diabetes and just ironically, his 29 year old daughter died right the
day before Christmas of diabetes. But there's a good example of a family,
had good responsibilities, came into a program was a saint. No, but
neither was many, but they ended up doing what you wanted them to do. And
I, as a coach and our assistant coaches made them responsible. They grew
academically from, I would say a marginal student to a great student all
because of somebody caring for him. And they had the basic intelligence.
Others I can mention, Pat Appley said you discipline them, boot them off
because they're not abiding by the rules and regulations. And, and as I
said, and I'll be repetitious. I used to tell him, don't do anything to
embarrass yourself or your family or the program. And I, and I, and it's
the way I treat them. Uh And II, I feel very strongly in the years I spent
at Arizona Boys Ranch in the same philosophy
that looks like juggling with. You brought up something in my mind during
your time here. What about race? What, what was the issue of racial
problems that we didn't have them? Because when they got injured, the
blood came out red.
No one thing I, I acquired for somewhere down along I came from a, we had
and, and I'll tell you what, I came from a coal mining town. We had one
black family in the community. The dad Mr Thomas was a restaurant owner in
downtown Wimber Jesse, his son was in our class and I really felt sorry
for him because socially, you know, you're in all those ethnic groups and
there's no white girls are going to date him, et cetera and everything
else. And
I had great admiration for him. Both he and his brother, his brother was
probably a freshman when Jesse was a senior in high school. So I developed
when I say a relationship but the prejudice was there with everybody. So
they used to go to Johnstown, which was a city relatively close by about
88,000 were black families. They used to go there. Well, I'll give you a
prize example. Unfortunately, Jesse was in an automobile accident and got
killed. Now, we had our high school reunion,
50th reunion and they had a tribute to each one of the people that died
and they had a rose and with a name on it. And this is a coal mining area
back in Pennsylvania.
And, uh, I was, I was a president of class for three years and I'm
watching everybody and everything else. And it's typical what you would
see in a community like that. They don't associate with other people,
whether they're minorities, whomever it may be. And they had these roses
up on the ceiling and it was going to cost $5 to buy the rose and it would
go into the high school pot for the next reunion. And I watched, I was
just curious. Nobody bought that one of Jesse's. These are kids that knew
him, that they know him. Like I did know and so I still have that rose in
my office. I should have brought it here and show it to you. And just to
remind me of people and prejudiced and, uh, you know, because of the color
or say what other factor that the language, whatever it may be. And I
always felt sorry for those guys. And so with, with athletes, I treated
them all alike equally as bad.
I expected to me race never meant anything to me. They had
responsibilities and I hate to talk about academics and athletics and
social responsibilities, accountable. The freshmen, they make a mistake.
They're freshmen, sophomore, they're growing, they're more responsible.
You better be responsible, you're a junior and senior, you better be
doggone responsible because I expect you to grow and expect you to mature.
And uh I, one thing good about me, I, if for some reason or other
race was never an issue with me, I accepted people as I was because I came
from an indigent background when I say monetarily, we didn't have anything.
And again, so as I said, I was taught to treat others the way you want to
be treated. And that's the way I treated our football players because I
felt that I coached that way. I played that way. And that's why I had the
success myself and that's what I expected from them. Sports is one place
that became integrated, I think before the rest of the society,
well, you know, to me, I, I personally think it comes from the family and
the school system. I still have great admiration. Now, my dad, let me tell
you something. When he did died, I was glad he died. It took me about a
year and a half to appreciate what he did for us. And then those teachers
I told you about that. I remember every one of their names because they
have such an impact on you between my mother and my father, my older
brothers and then the teachers at the elementary school, that's why I'm
sitting here.
We didn't talk too much about, but you've touched on, you want to talk a
little bit more about some of the support that you got as a football coach
from organizations like the Sun Angels. Um, well, you know, the intriguing
thing about it when we came here with the Sun Angels, they were kind of a
close knit organization. They were involved in the program extensively.
Then when Clyde Smith had taken over, he was the former coach he had taken
over. Then the association with the Sun Angels was no longer as a close
knit to the coaches, which was a great idea. In my opinion, that way, the
Sun Angels don't get involved with the players, which I thought was a
great in all the years that I coached. I don't think we ever had any
association with the boosters in the players because that's where you
create problems from the standpoint of, I'm talking about factors that are
illegal at the collegiate level, etc. But the Sun Angels are a great
organization and I've seen them change dramatically from the standpoint of
their responsibilities and they do a remarkable job of support for the
various programs in athletics, which I think is great and it's a necessity.
Well, and you talked a little bit about how big Sun Devil football was
here in the community. Can you talk a little bit more when you came here?
There wasn't much else, I guess. No, we were the only act in town so to
speak and we didn't have the pro sports and, and another great thing about
it is the community was focused. It's like a high school program. The
community is focused around Arizona State College and then Arizona State
University. I'm talking about the country clubs. I'm talking about the,
the boosters, et cetera and everything else, which was great for the
community. And it was the thing to be at the Arizona State football games.
And uh then that gradually diminished from the standpoint when you get
the, you got the pro sports in here
originally in the early days. You were the Yeah. Yeah, we definitely were.
Yeah, I mean, no, there's no question about it because, you know, it was
the only act in town that people wanted to go, excuse me, people wanted to
go and see. So and we had the following, we had the tradition we won,
which is very significant. And so I think it's, uh it's very important to
have that in the community. You take some of the institutions, like, why
is Michigan? Why is Penn State? They're the only, they're the only thing
in town. And I think the U of A has a certain degree of that down there
because they don't have the competition from the other activities
you talked about coming into town and you couldn't even find Tempe. And at
the college talk about how the community has changed. Well, what I have
seen, uh it has grown dramatically. Uh, number one, say the institution
aspect of it, the growth of it, the physical aspects of it, the academic,
uh, to me from the four colleges that they had when I first came here,
that all of the institute colleges within the university now. And I think
it's been great for the community. But when you have the size, like we had
4000, 500 students, now, I think we're the largest in the country. So
again, you get away from that personal, intimate relationship and the
associations you have not only with the students but with the faculty. So
I think those are certainly factors that I think make the difference in an
institution. Is it the way to go? Evidently it is for some people. Me. No
,
you are back here though. Yeah, I'm back on
my terms,
I, I'm in community relations and I get involved extensively and then, uh
, I, I think that I, I, I'm interested just like there are some people
from Canada, I came and showed them around, they had their son with them
and he said he was, uh, uh, gonna be a high school quarterback. So I sat
down with him, gave him drills that I had had the dad, his dad was a can,
I didn't know him. I mean, that's the association that I love with. I, I
think the college atmosphere is fantastic, in my opinion. I, I love the
type of people that are, that are involved in it, whether they're faculty
, whether they're students or whether they're visitors. So this little guy
, I'm teaching him all the quarterback drills and I gave his dad a copy of
the drills. And so any time, say like this afternoon, I have one of my
former graduate assistants and his family is coming in. So I enjoy that
aspect of it. So it's really community relations, things that I enjoy
because I love the college atmosphere.
Oh, yeah, I have an office. I come to work every day and I know the good
thing about it is I have responsibilities
and I know what I have to do. I get it done. I don't have to be concerned
about, am I satisfying this person or am I satisfying that individual or I
don't have to worry about winning football games and everything else. So,
it's enjoyable. It's the people business, but you could just be retired
and taking it easy. I don't think my wife will permit that.
Well, I know I ran down, uh, this little biography of you, um, from the
Frank Kush Youth Foundation I found. Tell me what the Frank Kush Youth
Foundation. Well, that's, you know, I, I'm trying to figure that one out
also. Uh, uh, it, it, uh, Andy Drezo who heads it up and all we do is have
a running program in here in the city of Tempe. And, uh, with the revenue
, I'm not involved in that segment of it on a monetary basis. But, uh,
they just use my name and, uh, they gifted uh, youngsters in, uh, in
various high school and junior high programs.
No, I think I'm going to have to because the thing is really wrong. In
fact, there may be some monetary responsibilities that I better be
concerned about.
Uh, well, they have a nice biography of you there and it mentioned some of
the honors that you've received. Um, let's see, it says on there that
you're a charter member of the NFFCHF
Valley of the Sun chapter. What's that? That's the national football Hall
of Fame. I was inducted into the college Hall of Fame in 1995 and I've
been an active member of that since the sixties. I really enjoy it because
we evaluate high school athletes, they have to have a certain academic GPA
and they're awarded scholarships and everything else. I love to see people
have an opportunity to become educated and that's what that's all about.
The National Football Hall of Fame. We have, I think 100 and 40 some
chapters. And I'm trying to, we're trying to start a chapter up in Alaska
and the so called Native Americans here in town. But uh no, I, I think
it's great because for example, the National Football Hall of Fame, in
conjunction with the NFL has developed with the Get Smart Program. We have
three high schools in the state of Arizona where we provide an instructor
in getting youngsters. And right now, it's basically in the Hispanic
neighborhoods, getting youngsters to be aware of what an education means
to improve their academic status at the high school level. So they can go
on to college and they're principally involved with the high school
football teams. And in fact, my suggestion which we're going to do this
year with our chapter is have the same opportunities for cheerleaders. You
know, I think it's very important that all of our youngsters have an
opportunity to become educated when I say beyond the high school level. A
right. Right. Exactly. Right.
And you, you mentioned, you know, you were in the Hall of Fame, the Polish
Hall of Fame, the college Hall of Fame. I got inducted into the Polish
Hall, Michigan State.
Well, it's all Polacks, the second generation Polish youngsters and
there's some great ones, Stan Musial Kaminsky and all those guys. I was
inducted about five years ago. It's back at Hamtramck Michigan and I got
to get a kick out of it because they say who are Pollacks in the United
States, second generation Polish people. And so, no, the gratification I
get out of that is the association just like the other night that they had
the all of the members from the present Hall of Fame that were just
inducted, they were on a football field for the Fiesta ball game. And so I
got to see those guys and, you know, and then some of the other old timers
like myself. So it's always enjoyable because most of those people that
have been inducted are really worthy of it from the standpoint of they've
had academic success and they've had athletic success,
college Hall of Fame, right? We have the same thing for the high school
here in the State of Arizona.
What about when they named the field for you? Well, you know, to me that's
a tribute to the players and the coaches we had, you know, it's not Frank
Kush Field, it could be anybody, Danny White's field or anybody else. But
I think it's to me the gratification that I got out of having those
players, they made that possible. I mean, without those youngsters
again, as the various coaches we had here as assistant coaches. That's all
part of it. It's just not Frank Kush, believe me.
Wh which one of those students, which one of those players do you put up
there at the top of? Well, we had so many, the good thing about our, our
program over the years I could go back in the fifties. I mentioned the
Mogas, the Gene Mitchum
John Jenkins. And so you go in the sixties, the Joe Zuger, John mcfall, we
had a lot of great college athletes. See, I think that's the key to a
college athlete. I'm not talking about kids are going to be pros. We had
eventually guys are in pro etcetera and everything else. There's so many
of them and when I say great, the greatness means they had success, they
got their degree and their responsible citizens in our society. That to me
is a successful portion of it. We had them just horrendous every year,
which I think is a gratification of coaching at the collegiate level. But
when you left here in 1979 did you ever think that you would come back and
have the field thing?
No, that's to me it's, it's a tribute as I said to, to the family and to
the players we had, I think a a to you.
Well, I tell you the funny part about that statue, my youngest
granddaughter when she was uh she, let's see about 18 now. So she was
about 10 or 12. And she said, grandpa, I thought they only made statues of
dead people. Jordy
II, I told her, I said your, your grandpa is still alive. Ok.
They should have waited a few years. No, no, I, if I, if I, if I die, I
wanna die healthy. Well, it's nice to be honored when you're alive, I
think. Yeah. Well,
oh, I've got a couple of general questions. I think June gave you these of
, um, of, of all your accomplishments at, um, a SU, what's the one that
you're most proud of? Well, you know, III, I break it down into
athletically and academically. I got my master's degree. I was proud of
that. And then athletically, the success we've had in my family. I have
three boys. They're all a su
grads and, uh, and my wife, you know, she was a student in Michigan State
and she's done a commendable job and we've had a great family relationship
here. I've had opportunities to take pro jobs for a ton of money. I'm
talking about when a million and a half was a heck of a lot of money and I
declined to because I enjoyed the college atmosphere. I, I'm talking about
the growth, the development for our youngsters. In fact, I had a chance to
take the New York Giants job years ago. And the reason I didn't take it is
that, uh, I, our family would have had to live out in the boondocks
somewhere and they had to commute by car and all that to school and, and I
, I love Tempe. Tempe is a great community. It's a great college
atmosphere and I, you, you meet a lot of what I call people that have the
same common interests about success and all those factors that make it a
great community. Well, people like, you probably are part of that. I think
a lot of people in your situation after 1979 would have just left and
never looked back. Well, you know, but the thing about it when I, I left
and went my, my typical female, she stayed here while I was in the winter
up in Canada and Baltimore. She'd come up and see me in the spring and
summertime
and I kid her about that. But no, and she was great as a mother. She did a
commendable job by taking care of. In fact, we only had one youngster at
that time in uh school. But uh this really is home to me. You know, you
gotta realize that I came here when I was a young kid when I was 26 years
old. And uh and I've been here for 25 years. So I'm in my fifties. So I've
developed some great relationships in the community at Arizona State
University, like you said, you had opportunities to go. Yes. Right. And I
, I think it's your values and how you perceive your family relations,
your family responsibilities and the association you've had with people in
the community and which we have, you know, I'm talking about our Children.
They all went
here and they're Tempe high graduates. And so that's all part of it as far
as I'm concerned. Now, some people may be more money orientated. I'm not.
Yeah. When you talked about what you made as a coach, when you left, did
you say from the university? I was making 45,000.
I don't begrudge him. No, that's part of our society.
It would be
the thing that I feel badly about. I think athletics at a collegiate level
to me are way beyond what they should be. In contrast, why are they here?
They're here to get an education for academic purposes. And I think the
youngsters and also the pressure that coaches put on them, they have the
concept that they're going to be pro athletes and there are so few of them.
It's all about winning today and money. And it's unfortunate because
that's the nature of the game as it is. Like when I was in college, there
were only four bowl games and now there's
26 bowl games, there's, let's see, 28 bowl games. And so that means
there's 56 teams playing in bowl games before. It was an honor to play in
a bowl game. You better have a pretty good record. Now, anybody goes to a
bowl game And again, what is it all about? It's the monetary aspects of it.
When you think of, we played the first Fiesta Bowl game, we got 150,000.
Those teams that played there the other day get approximately 15 million
apiece.
It's a different world.
Well, I'm certainly disappointed even though the Fiesta Bowl has been
dragged to me personally, I get involved with them and I feel that the
city of Tempe, in addition to Arizona State University, to me, there's a
lot indebted to them for creating the Fiesta Bowl and the people of Tempe
when I say the people of Tempe, the business people in Arizona State
University. And to me right now, it's the monetary aspects of it and
there's no sense of loyalty or tradition. So I think it's a loss, but I
think we'll overcome it with the um the
inside ball game night. And because of the community, people, like I'm
involved extensively with the Tempe Diablos, we go to the two teams that
are going to participate in a festival like I just was back in South Bend
and also at Columbus. And next year, I'm sure that Tempe Diablo Group is
going to get detached to the inside bowl and they'll be on A S US campus.
And I think eventually the inside bowl because of the location and the
college atmosphere will be equally as good.
They are a bunch of businessmen that are involved in the community they do
a commendable job as far as supporting various programs at the high school
level, they give money to, they select high school teachers and junior
high teachers. They give them a pretty good chunk of money and they are
great community people. They're precip involved with the Fiesta Bowl also
with the city of Tempe Youth programs. They've done a remarkable job and I
get involved with them quite extensively and we go back to the two teams
that are going to participate in a bowl game and the community programs.
In fact, they're giving out awards Monday in two youngsters that have
honored themselves academically at the high school level. So it sounds
like you're still involved with young people quite a bit. Yes, I enjoy
them because they do what I want them to do.
I always ask everybody here is, what advice do you give to young people
when they're trying to? Well, II, I think number one, they've got to go to
an institution that has the type of program, what they want to be involved
in. And then also I think it's significant if they can get away from home
, you know, really, I think some of the greatest experiences I've had
living in the dormitories, living in the fraternity home and meeting other
people. And III I, that to me is so significant that is, is an equal part
of education, is learning to live with other. I have a granddaughter who's
going to Kansas State. She's petrified with the cold weather, although she
snow skis, et cetera and everything else and she's homesick. So I think
this is all part of it. And I think that if I were telling a youngster,
I'd say the best thing you can do is go to an institution where they have
what you want academically and socially and be away from home, learn to
live and learn to grow, good, good advice. Um Any advice that you have for
, as u as it continues to grow, you got to win.
Are you talking just in sports or? I think they're winning in the other
field with, with Doctor Crow. There's no problem there
when you left with Russell Nelson. No. Uh uh
John Schwa, Schwa was there. Yeah.
Yeah, I, I kind of flew the coop.
Are there any things that we didn't cover that you wanna cover or did you
, David might have a talk about the building of the stadium? Um,
the Cardinals coming?
Well, they're gone. So we might know you say anything about them.
Was there a court case that went to the Supreme court? Well, yeah, let's
forget about that crap.
I want your side. No, no, no. What difference does it make? Who cares? I
don't care. You didn't you? Yeah. Yeah, it's all over, you know, that's
all garbage in my opinion. What was the most miraculous event that
occurred in? Mhm.
I would say when my son, Danny was our field goal kicker against Fiesta
Bowl and we were, I thought we should have been national champs. He kicked
three field goals and the other kid I'd mentioned this earlier, Fred
Mortenson was a substitute quarterback, you know, he went on a mission. He
come in. Dennis Brown got hurt, we scored a touchdown and we went for two
and Fred threw the pass to Larry Mucker and tied the score at 1414. Then
Danny kicked the winning field goal and that's to me because of my
association with Mortenson, as well as my son in the team. It was very
significant and that really, that game probably put us over the hill from
the standpoint of continued recognition nationally. That must have put a
lot of pressure on your son and he's trained to do it. No, the great thing
about the relationship. I treated him just like anybody else and he, he
was, he's a bright kid. And so he knew his responsibility he was and I
wasn't biased. The only time I, one of the times I think I was a little
biased and I shouldn't have shown it. We were playing Utah somebody and
they roughed the kicker and he got hurt bad. And like a father, I thought
he was hurt more serious than he was. And I, I should have never gone out
there. But I went to check on him and see how he was doing. That was the
father instinct. And then I said, you dumb bozo, you shouldn't be out. The
other players are going to say, what the hell is he doing out there? He
doesn't look at us that way.
Was it hard to? No? No, because he, he was a very, he's a very bright kid.
He knows what he has to do. And I trained him in kicking and
he, and Dan is one of those young men that he knows his place, whether it
with Motorola, whether it's orbital sciences, firing missiles or whatever
it's doing. He, he, he, he knows what he has to do.
Right. One thing we haven't asked you about where disappointments, you
know, where you had an athlete come to, you become a great athlete here.
Well, one of the most distressing ones ever had was a kid by the name of
Bobby Davenport.
He was a black kid. I recruited him out of Western, right outside of
Pittsburgh. Now, believe me, he, his mom, his sister with an illegitimate
child lived in this old abandoned farmhouse. They had no electricity. This
hasn't been that long ago. They had no electricity and his mother and I
don't know how to say this and said diplomatically they sat and I was
talking to him, etcetera
and they weren't,
oh, I got a very good looking people
and I thought to myself they don't have anything. They had no electricity
, nothing. And I said to myself, I'm going to get this kid out here. I got
to know him personally. We were gonna go, we were gonna go eat and I could
see the mom wouldn't go and neither was the daughter. And so I went out
and got some Kentucky fried chicken, brought it back and I tell you, and I
thought I had it bad. This was 10 times as worse. But anyway, the
interesting thing about it is that he's at Penn Hills High School. He took
the AC T exam. He scored, yeah, I'd say a 19, which isn't bad. He scored a
19 on the AC T test.
Our registrar at that time was L Thomas.
And, uh, they got his Bobby's transcript and the AC T scores and they
question whether the signature was the same on the AC T as on the
transcript, the kid's signature. And so, uh, Clyde Smith and Al Thomas got
together and they wanted to talk to me and they wanted, they were
questioning his transcript and I said, well, let me talk to the young man
because I, I really got to know him because you know, I'll give you an
example when I was at his house. And I said to myself, I'm gonna get this
kid out of here come hell or high water. You put him in a junior college
or at Arizona State anyway, because I, you, you talk about not having a
chance and he, he, he was eventually gonna be a good football player. So
anyway, so Al Thomas, uh, they're not gonna admit him because of that
transcript. I, and I said to him, I says, well, let me talk to Bobby
Davenport. I talked to Bobby Davenport
and I said, Bob, I said, there's a question on your transcript and your AC
T scores, the signature seem to be different. He says, coach, he said, uh
, I know I signed my transcript and I know I took the AC T test and he
says, uh, what, what's the problem? He and I said, well, they think that
somebody else took it for you. He said, I'll tell you what, I'll take it
again. Now, this honest to God truth. He and I go and see Clyde Smith and
I, we go meet with Al Thomas and I says, I talked to Bobby Davenport and I
said, he'll be glad to take the test again if you want him to take it. Al
was elated to take the test. He takes the test, he gets a 23 on it. You
know, not either one of those two people ever apologized to him. I think
this is gonna get better and it's gonna get worse. Great kid. One of our
assistant coaches, Chuck mcbride and you develop a relationship with
players. This kid was like a son to me because as I said, I'm, I'm going
to get him out of that environment come hell or high water whether I put
him up in the junior college or whatever I do in him. So, Chuck mcbride
was our defensive coach and Bobby was a competitor. As I said, you, you,
you know kids and you know that they're giving their best. Well, he was
down in a three point stance and on defense and mcbride kicked him in the
back end and hit his privates and a poor kid rolled over. He's almost, and
I went up to mcbride and I said, you ever do that again? Your goddamn ass
is fired. And I said, I said, I want you to apologize to him now or get
the hell out of here. So he went and apologized to him, et cetera. So
Bobby Davenport did a great job for us. He wanted, he wanted to play pro
ball, make some money. Well, let me go back to his junior year. He worked
here in the summertime.
We had a part time job their year. He brought his mother out his sister,
he lived in South Phoenix and had a home for them and they were, they were
ecstatic about it and you know, they're not educated people. So anyway, so
Bobby Davenport and he says, coach, he said, how about getting me a try
out in the NFL? And so I talked to people, they didn't think that he was
big enough. So I talked to some friends up in Canada, they took him up
there and he went up there and he was doing great. Then he got to the
point he called me. He says, I think I'm going to make the team. But he
says, my mother and sister are having trouble. He says I want to come back
and he said, I have my, he had his degree and everything. I was a pretty
sharp kid. He said, I want to come back and, uh, and he says, uh, do you
think you could line me up with a job? So this is like I would say in July
because Canadian League is up there in July. So he comes back, I get him a
job at Agua Frio as in a guidance counseling. He's a pretty sharp kid,
guidance counseling and assistant football coach. Well, his brother visits
him, uh his brother and they're gonna go to California.
He's driving a car, his brother is driving a car and he falls asleep and
runs over and the car flips over and takes Bobby's head just like this
kills him out, right? And uh they had services for him. He, he was now
teaching at Alba Fria High school. They had services for him. I've never
been to services. You talk about people, white, black crying because of
him. He was just a super kid that I'll never forget. As long as I live as
you know, in a great tribute, they have a trophy for him, etcetera in a
high school. When you talk about somebody that, uh, you know, you could be
poor but there's people that are worse off than you are and I've never
seen a worse situation as a family and the mother was a decent person, you
know. And, uh, and then that family, Penn Hills. Right. Really? What it is
? Penn Hills is a plush neighborhood. But this was the garbage dump for
the city of Pittsburgh where they live. It was pitiful. That's probably
the most memorable youngster that I had been involved with. And there were
many not
type of a tragedy but yet with people that you help out,
you have to. And as I said, when you're involved because you care for them
and you know them, that's when you could be, you know, when they're not
doing what you want them to do to be successful. And that's when I was
there. So be it, everybody accused me of. Does it make any difference to
me?
No, no, no, no, no, I don't enjoy it. Believe me. I just love to see
people be successful. And if I could do anything about it, whether it's a
Bobby Davenport or Danny Kush or David Kush, or then that's my
responsibility.
See what a lot of people don't understand if you're really a caring coach
, they're almost like all your Children, you want them to be successful
and some of them are jerks bozos.
And then the ones you feel sorry for
are the ones that don't grow and don't mature and some of them drop out
for a multitude of reasons. The sounds like you're still very involved in.
Well, I know my limitations called aging.
Well, are there any areas that we didn't talk about? A lot of notes there
? Well, no, I, you know, I, those were the questions that you guys did.
She sent me and I have, no, no, just the family. Yeah. You guys now, just
the family. As I said, we have been married, I think 50 some years, 52
years. I have three boys. The oldest one is an engineer. The next one is
an anesthesiologist. The youngest one is an interior design guy and I have
two granddaughters. They're both college kids. So we've been fortunate
variety of careers and none of them went into sports. No, no, no. Danny.
Danny was our kicker then. David. No, no, no, no. They were fortunate
that they got their brains from their mother. And that's why one's an
engineer and the other one's a doctor.
Some of your family came out here. Yeah, I brought out, I brought, uh,
three of my brothers out here to go to college. One of them played for us
, Joe. He played for us and Stan and Tony and, yeah, they, uh, they came
out and got degrees from Arizona State.
Do you still have family in those small towns? Pennsylvania. My oldest
sister passed away here about a year ago from cancer.
The older brother, I have three older brothers still alive. One's 88. The
other one's about, I would say 82. The other one is about 79
older brothers. And then there's me and then, uh, we had out of the five
girls, four of them have passed away and one girl still alive and eight
boys,
large family. Yeah, I think that was their means of entertainment. They
tell me
the poor TV, we didn't have a radio either. We didn't have TV, or radio.
So they have to do something. Yeah.
You know, uh any closing thoughts that you want to pass on to? No, it's
fine. Whatever. Hope you doctored up to improve it. Well, this is kind of
for posterity. So, um what, what do you see for the future of a su Well, I
, you know, I'm, I'm overwhelmed with the growth, the physical growth of
it. And uh also uh from the standpoint of how they have grown academically
,
also the diversity of the programs. Uh also, uh it's become so large, it's
become very impersonal in my opinion. And so I would say, but I think
that's just normal for any institution that has grown as dramatically as
it has over the years. And so
it's, to me it's a great community. I think it's great for the state of
Arizona. Arizona has grown a lot since you came here too. Yeah. But you
still have the boom docks.
Yeah. No question about that. Now
I go to, I go up to camp to. Yeah. Yeah, I still, I snow ski so we get up
that area. Yeah.
Ok. Well, I think that pretty much covers. Ok. Thank you. My pleas.