And we are doing this interview today in the studios of Kae Channel eight
at ASU, the public television station here and today is Wednesday,
February 22 of 2006. And we're conducting this interview as a living
history for the living history video project for the Arizona State
University Retirees Association.
I'd like to have you introduce yourself if you could give us your full
name, right? I'm uh Frank uh J sack the Js for Joseph. Very good. And can
you tell me where you were born? And when you were born? Right? I was born
in um 1912
and in Chicago, Illinois, actually the central city those familiar with
Chicago will recognize the Drake Hotel in Oak Street Beach. And I was born
exactly one mile west of that landmark. I was born and raised there for uh
had a very happy boyhood there too. What did your parents do um in the
city there? My uh father was um uh take up, I would call an assistant
engineer in a roundhouse for the uh Chicago Northwestern Railroad in the
maintenance area, the roundhouse when they bring in the, the vehicles for
maintenance. Mother of course, was a homemaker, taking homemaker, taking
care of five Children.
And where did you fall among the five? Right in the middle. The sister was
the eldest and then one older brother. Then I fell in the middle and two
younger brothers.
What was it like growing up in Chicago back then? Well, Chicago was much
smaller than it is now and I found it a very exciting city and it was a
nice place to explore, particularly in the summer time during vacation
period. Uh My young colleagues and I could uh ride the trolley car for
three cents and they had a transfer system where you could transfer and go
other vehicles to other parts of the city as long as you went forward and
laterally and never went back. But for three cents, we could spend half a
day exploring the city and that was a lot of fun. What sort of places did
you like to go? What did you like to do? Well, we like Lincoln Park that
was nearby within easy walking distance about a mile away. And we used to
admire all the statues of the historical figures mostly on horseback.
There was a Jackson Park on the south side that was about two miles away,
but no problem walking that distance. And we would visit that a good deal.
Lincoln Park was one of our favorites because at that time, there was a,
a
tuberculosis sanitarium there. And that was always a stop for us because
the nurses would give us milk and cookies.
Very nice. What about school? Where did you go to school? Well, the, uh,
elementary school was in the neighborhood. There was no problem there. Uh
, the high school was, uh, about a mile away. No problem there. And, uh, I
did, uh, start college at Northwestern University. Evanston, right
adjacent to Chicago. Um, as a boy, were you a good student in school? Uh I
, I think so the grades indicated I, I was a pretty fair student. And what
subjects did you like?
I like the science subjects. Anything involving physics, science and
mathematics. What did you want to do when you grew up? Well, from, as far
back as I can remember, I wanted to be a soldier
and that opportunity came in 1929. This was the height of the Depression
and um I found that I could join the Illinois National Guard and start my
military career. I didn't know that it was going to be the start of my
military career, but it was, I had to say I was uh 6, uh 18 years old. I
was only 16, but nobody was asking any questions. So I uh started the
career there. This was in 1929 while in 1939 the war clouds were gathering
, Hitler was on a rampage and uh the uh Japanese were plundering the
Southeast Asia for oil and we had a very, very weak army, hardly any army
at all. And the country realized it had to build up for its own security.
By that time, I was a captain of infantry in the Illinois National Guard
and was offered a regular army commission as a captain uh in, in the uh
reconstructed army that we were doing. So I took advantage of it and then
stage for 32 years, why did you originally want to be a soldier?
Uh It's um probably something that appeals to uh boys at least and
appealed to all of my friends of my age. My colleagues, you get uh
ammunition to fire and you have guns to fire on weekends, you go to the
outdoor ranges to fire these weapons and uh that appealed to me the uh
being with weapons and ammunition and firing them. So originally when you
were in the National Guard, did you have a regular other job or? Oh, yes,
I had a regular job. I was working for RC A at the time we were developing
the teleprinter, uh which became a means of communication uh between
stations and between offices. And I was uh doing mostly clerical work. And
uh that was my job which I promptly abandoned. Of course, when I had the
opportunity to go on active duty with the army, um You didn't want to go
into working for the railroad like your father. No. Uh it was uh sort of
prosaic work,
uh, oiling and repairing engines and locomotives.
Um, what was your first paid job as a young boy? Well, my first paid job
as a young boy was selling newspapers.
I was, um, located near Chicago Avenue. I live south of Chicago Avenue and
Chicago Avenue, uh, was noted to having a string of saloons and I could
sell newspapers in those saloons and the, uh, patrons were very generous,
uh, papers were three cents each and they usually give me a nickel and
tell me to keep the Betty. So, uh, it was a very profitable venture. How
old were you then? Oh, I was about 10, 9 or 10. It seems to be a common
job for young boys in that time period. Um, let's see. Well, you actually
grew up during the depression. Was that a tough time for your family? It
was a tough time for dad,
was working for the Chicago Northwestern Railroad. And, uh, he, um, it
never got paid off. However, the pay was very, very small because the
competition was severe. You remember we, speaking of a time when
unemployment was 25% of the workforce and, uh, in as much as that at that
time, we had one wager families that meant that, uh, 25% of the families
poor without work. And that was the start of what we call now, the, uh,
welfare programs.
And Franklin Roosevelt, the president, uh, realized something had to be
done. To alleviate the hardship and started a whole string of welfare
programs such as uh assistance in housing and food stamps, things of that
nature. So you were probably lucky to have any job as a young man. Oh, yes.
The most priceless possession at that time was a job
and they were hard to get.
So. Well, tell me a little bit more about when you joined the military
full time. Um Where did you go? Where were you sent?
My first nation was Kemp Forest, uh Tennessee
because it was a training area. And um I, I commanded a company to begin
with. Uh and then a battalion that's about 808 100 men. And uh then I was
told I would have to train this battalion and I would take it overseas. So
I trained, this battalion took a little over a year until it was combat
ready and it was determined to be combat ready. Then I was sent to the
Southwest Pacific and I stayed with this battalion
for about 9, 10 months until my regimental commander got killed in one of
the battles that I took over the regiment which consisted of three
battalions.
So that's a lot of people. It was,
and it was a little overwhelming at the start at the start because I was
30 years old and that wasn't very mature to command that number of
soldiers in a combat situation. But you learn to cope very quickly in a
battle environment and a lot of those soldiers were even younger than that
, weren't they?
Are there any particular experiences? You remember about that period that
I was wounded four times.
Uh The first two times it was shrapnel and I have scars on my arms. And
then the um, third time, a shell burst near my ear and broke both my
eardrums. That's one reason I wanted the hearing aids. And the fourth one
is the one that uh makes me walk, walk crooked. The bullet entered the
right side of my body came on the left side, didn't hit a bone but it slid
past the sciatic nerve. Fortunately, it didn't sever it, but slid past
that. I had bruises and then arthritis and now osteoporosis,
it's lucky you survived all that. But survival was the name of the game
and I did survive were these, some of these battles ones that we would
have heard of that you were in. Yes, one is in the news just today. The
battle of Lee in the Philippines. It's in the news today because of the
mudslides and uh the uh hundreds of people that have perished. But that
was the toughest battle we had others. I started, my first battle was in M
and the sole islands of the Netherlands, East Indies. And that gave us the
reach to go into the Philippines and then in the Philippines. And that was
a very, very tough battle because the enemy knew and we knew that it was
critical and a key situation to the possession of the Philippines. Once we
took the Philippines, then we had a landing platform to attack Japan. So
that's why it was a severe battle at that point though. How did you get to
those islands to attack them? Right. All of it was amphibious landings. We
would go by large transports and then come down rope ladders into small
craft to make the assault run to the beach.
Were there a lot of men that were lost in those? Yes, in my battalion,
uh I would lose um about 30% killed and wounded. How do you deal with that
when you're out there? And well,
the thing that helps you is time and doing it many times and it becomes
sort of routine.
Uh The uh commanders,
the company commanders and I commanded the battalion and the first
operation. Uh We become wedded to our, our, our team, our, there's a
bonding that goes on. So when we're wounded, we don't want to be evacuated
in the medical stream because we'll never come back to the unit. So what
we usually did at that time, the corps man, we had corpsman, uh assistant
medical officers working with us. They would uh take our wounds and clamp
them shut, you know, bring the flesh together and clamp them, load them
with penicillin and we would not then leave our unit. We would stay with
the unit unless it got infected and then we would have to be evacuated. So
all those wounds you had, you were not evacuated to a hospital. Never. No.
And it was deliberate. So I would not leave my unit. You see, you, you uh
, you get a, well, the it was the draft period. These were young draftees
, 1819 year old and uh they were just at the age that they could have been
my real Children. So I had to take care of him.
Must have been hard though when you would lose so many of them. When I
lose one of my soldiers, really part of me died with him.
Ok, I think out there you get attached, you know, you do get attached.
Um, of course, that was a long time ago when you look back. Are you sad
about those times or how do you look back at those? I know there's no
regret that you, um, did what was required of you. Uh, you know, it's not
a pleasant thing killing people whom you don't know. Uh, but they're the
enemy. So you, you, you kill them and, uh,
you have some qualms about that. But, uh, as I look back, I, I have no
regrets. I get what I was expected to do
and I guess they would, they would kill you if they had the chance. So,
June, that's my phone. Can you turn it off? My phone is in my purse
ringing,
it'll stop. Let's just wait, it'll stop. It will stop. Should have turned
it off or left it somewhere else.
Um, well, let's talk a little bit more about the, the war years. Um, after
the, the that time in the Pacific. Where did you go from there? Uh, well,
uh, during the, um, war in the Pacific,
I was decorated with the silver star for
Danner in action. And, uh, it was the same time I was promoted from
battalion commander to regimental commander because uh my regimental
commander had been killed and I took his job. And uh uh general Macarthur
came, he was commanding the theater. He came to present
the promotion and the medal to me along with others who had been decorated
after the war. And he selected my division commander, a major general to
be his chief of staff.
So he sent a cable said, welcome you to Tokyo as my chief of staff. And uh
will you bring with you that young colonel whom we promoted? So I tagged
along and became a uh special assistant to General Macarthur during the
time that he commanded as the supreme commander, all of Japan. Mhm. Was
this before the bombs were dropped or? Yes, it was before the bombs were
dropped. And um uh our uh
big job
there of course, was pacifying the uh I have to retract a little bit. Uh
We were in, in uh a lady in the Philippines, as I mentioned, that was a
big battle. Then we went to Luzon
and it was at Luan. We used the base to land on the shores of Japan and we
were developing the plan at that time. But we were all concerned because
it was going to be a fierce landing because we were attacking the homeland.
So uh we were quite apprehensive as to how we would be met. It would not
be a homecoming when we hit the beaches of Japan. But we were saved by the
uh Beaumont Hiroshima.
The um
emperor realized it was time to call it quits and he personally terminated
the war. Now, the war could have terminated a year earlier because after
we took LA the war in New Orleans, that the purposes was over. Now we were
in a position to attack Japan. But we had a policy known as the
unconditional surrender,
which meant of course that all of the opposing generals on the losing side
would be hung as war criminals.
And that delayed the termination of the war because the generals were in
command of the military of Japan
and they would not sign their own death warrant. So they held out thinking
that if we did attack Japan, they could make it so severe that we would
negotiate a peace. But uh I've, I've also had second doubts about that uh
policy of unconditional surrender. It really delayed the determination of
the war in my opinion, it delayed by one year.
A lot of people died during that year, a lot of people died during that
year. The, um, by the way, we're coming up to the 60th anniversary of the
dropping of the bomb which occurred on July 27. I remember that clearly
and there will be a lot of discussion on the 60 th anniversary. Should we
have dropped the bomb? How did you hear about it? Uh We had to do that. We
had to do something. Now, the, at that time, I didn't realize all of the
negotiations that were going on. But I did learn later when I had access
to the files that, um, we tried bombing, you know, conventional bombing.
Uh We bombed the Osaka a weird time. 66
B 17 fortress airplanes
in one wave dropped £500 bombs and then a second wave when we dropped
incendiaries to burn up the rubble, create a firestorm in the city. And we
did the same with several other cities.
It had the capacity to do more but uh there was no surrender.
Where were you? When you heard about that? They had dropped this bigger
bomb. How did you hear about it? I was
and the island of Luanne planning the invasion of Japan.
And that would have been a tough one. That really would have been a tough
one. So we were pleased when the emperor surrendered. Did you hadn't known
anything though? About the atomic bomb before that. No, no. It was all, it
was all a surprise when it came the manufacture of the bomb and then its
use was very closely held by then President Truman.
So were you surprised?
I certainly was surprised that the bomb was developed under the president
of Franklin Roosevelt at Los, at Los Alamos. But it was uh up to President
Truman then to make the decision to drop it.
Did you agree with that decision? I did,
it stopped the killing on both sides and that alone made it worthwhile, I
think. Ok, so what did you do after the war? Uh uh Well, I uh the war by
then, the military was my career.
So I went into the eu the general pattern of staff work and then
commanding of troops and some more staff work and then commanding of
troops.
I had some interesting assignments during that period, I was assigned to
Los Alamos with the Atomic Energy Commission for three years to be a
planner to help the scientists fabricate and develop the first hydrogen
bomb.
And that was a fascinating experience. Uh When we dropped it on the island
of Tinian, uh we thought we would get about three megatons that 3 million
tons of explosive equivalent. Instead we got 4.2 it was a horrendous
weapon and the pari bomb has never been used in anger and I hope it never
is used in anger because uh one bomb will wipe out a complete city.
50% of the people in the city will perish by blast and then 50% will have
a slow death by radiation.
That's what the hydrogen bomb will do.
Hope we don't have to use it.
So, so how did your career with the military? When did you finally retire
? Uh,
I retired, uh,
at, uh, 58 years of age but the record showed I was 60 years because of
the two years I had fudged earlier, but 60 years. Was it? So that was the
official record. So I retired at that time and, uh, miss a sack and I
decided we would come to, uh, Scottsdale, Arizona to live because we had
friends here and had visited from time to time. I done. I was very
fortunate because at that time, Governor Jack Williams was having trouble
with the budget and with grant programs with the federal government had a
whole array of problems involving, involving finance. And so he was
talking to, uh Senator Barry Goldwater about it once and Senator Barry
Goldwater said, well, there's a fellow called Frank Zack and he's on his
way to live in Scottsdale, you should talk with him and he did, gave me a
job. Now, how did you know Barry Goldwater or how did Barry Goldwater know
you?
I hadn't met him in Washington DC, maybe at a reception or several
receptions. And at one I had mentioned, I was going to Scottsdale to make
that my home. So you weren't close friends with him. So, he, he passed
that on and I found the assignment with Governor Jack Williams. Absolutely
delightful. I was his special assistant for almost four years. What sort
of projects did you work on? Uh, and mainly uh
working with Washington on the budget and getting for Arizona, all of the
grant programs that were available. There were a lot of programs available
at that time to help states and the metropolitan areas achieve a degree of
self sufficiency.
And um uh I I was to look them over, analyze them and then recommend to
the governor which would be suitable to Arizona for,
for the betterment of the people and then he would apply for them. So it
was that kind of work and what year was it that you came to Arizona that
you moved here?
1970 I believe? Yeah, 1970.
So what was Arizona like? Then we uh it was smaller, you know, as you
might expect because of the time of the calendar. Uh But uh a delightful
and I particularly appreciated its spirit of independence.
It was still a part of the Old West where the people accepted
responsibility
far out for themselves rather than depending on the government to provide
help.
What was Jack Williams like?
Uh He uh it was very, very delightful person to work for. Uh his great
characteristic I think is that he never accepted credit for all the good
he did. He passed that to somebody else
and he did that sometimes to a fault. I thought, do you have an example of
that? Yes. One specific example, there was a project that required close
co ordination with Washington in terms of these grants and financial
programs. And he, he led the charge on that. It was very, very successful.
Well, at the end of that period, there was a banquet. I don't know what
we were celebrated. And the master ceremony mentioned this achievement and
gave credit to uh Jack Williams. Well, when it came time for Jack Williams
to respond, he, he said that that was not. So it was the legislature that
should have the credit and his participation was not to stand in the way.
Wow,
later I remonstrated with him. I said that wasn't. So you handled this
thing from day one and did it well, then he said, he said, Frank,
technically, you're right. But having done what I did, you'd be surprised
how much more cooper I can get from the legislature.
And do you remember what project that was? Uh, it was a financial project
of some kind involving uh programs that the federal government was giving
to uh the various states. A lot of these programs were demonstration
programs, the federal government
fund them and fund them very generously. And when they were ongoing, the
federal government was withdrawal and the states were picking up,
when did you first get involved with a U, uh, when Jack Williams left
office, he had been governor of that eight years. He left, he left the
office. I wonder, what am I going to do with myself? I, I still was active
and want to do something. So I picked up the G I Bill,
went back to school to a su and picked up a Masters and a doctorate right
here. And when I finished, um they were looking for a um
uh a finance person which Brett Brown was doing who that was assigned to
the governor's office. So I filled the vacuum by taking the job and I
became,
I became a vice president for Business Affairs for, as U and what did you
get your masters and phd in just for the record public administration
and your bachelor's degree was from where
uh College Park, Maryland, University of Maryland in, in what I had
started at Northwest and never finished because the war intervened, but
then later went back to College Park. So you never went back to the
sciences that you liked so much as a boy? No, by that time I got involved
in this public administration thing which I enjoy. What were some of the
projects when you started working at ASU, what sort of issues were going
on at that time? Um Well, one of the things, uh by the way, John uh Swa
swa was uh president
just before Russell Nelson took it over and the board of Regents were
after him to develop a new college. Their reasoning was very interesting
and they pointed out that uh the College of Business was doing a great job
in outreach,
giving its knowledge to the people with various programs. And um that
there was a
no comparable program that uh worked on public administration
in the communities where they could use some help. So um they decided what
they needed was a college of public programs.
And um I was asked by John Schwer if I would establish such a uh a college.
And, and I did, it wasn't an easy job because I needed a minimum of five
departments to make a college. And so we had to pick, we picked up what is
now the Cronkite School of Journalism, uh the Department of Communication
and just the studies and these departments were reluctant to leave their
home to go into this brand new college. So we had a job of selling the
program uh which wasn't easy to do. But uh we finally did it,
was there similar kinds of programs at other colleges or was this
something new? Yes, we called it the college of public programs and other
colleges. They called it the College of Public Affairs. We didn't use that
term because we already had a Department of Public Affairs
which uh Brett had and organized
that must have been challenging, starting up the whole new college. It was
, it was a challenge. As a matter of fact, I talked to the president at
that time. You know, why me? I was kind of relatively new here and they
had all these um
senior tenure professors, you know, 2025 30 year service. And I did ask
him, I said, I'm delighted to do it. It's a challenge. But I'm curious,
you know, why some senior person didn't take it? The answer I got is uh,
was offered to them, but they all thought it was a high risk proposition.
And you see what? It's an interesting thought here. When you're a tenured
senior professor with 25 30 35 year service, you're very comfortable.
You're sort of a king in the academic field. And uh there's a reluctance
to take on challenging assignments that might uh screw up. You see,
so you were the new guy that didn't mind. I think the impression I got is
President Schwer was telling me really, you have nothing to lose. I had
been through my career already and perhaps he was right about that. You
were here then in the early seventies, was that some of the Vietnam war
protests were still going on and that the Vietnam War was still being
protested at the time you were here. It was, it was, what do you remember
about that period?
The uh
we had a lot of unrest on the campus. Of course, because the students,
I had some strong views about the, the war in general. And of course, the
general view is, uh, we didn't belong there, we should get out. And I
thought the same thing, it was a bad war in the wrong place. We were
fighting the wrong enemy. And um, many years later, President Johnson and
his memoirs said the same thing that must have been an unusual position as
an ex military person to, for you because I know by that time my combat
days were over. So I was not assigned to the region, but Jack Williams was
a strong supporter of the war. He was a strong supporter of not of the war
so much as of the administration that supported the war. He was very loyal
to the administration. Mhm. Ok. Um So you, you've had a number of careers
or jobs here at the university, that first one, you know, with the College
of public programs. Um Let's talk about some of the other things that you
did. Um after Russell Nelson came. Do you remember him coming? Yeah, I
believe it was either Mulholland, the Provost Mulholland was the provost
or uh uh President Russell Nelson.
Oh, wanted a strategic planning.
The department, we did not have any strategic planning and uh the uh melt
Holland was very strong about planning ahead and understanding where we
were and where we were going. So I was asked to uh develop a uh
organization and agency of a strategic planning. That was, that was an
interesting assignment and I did enjoy that. Of course, my love was on the
faculty and uh I uh also made the provision when I got these assignments
that I would, could be permitted to teach. Although I couldn't teach more
than one subject a semester with the load, but I was able to do that. So
the entire time I've been at the university, including today,
I teach a minimum of one subject, one class per semester. Why did you want
to teach? Uh
I like it. I love teaching. I love the interaction with the younger
generation because they are all so much younger than I am. And I like the
idea that we in our discussions, we exchange values of their generation
and my generation. And it's the interaction with the young people that uh
is very attractive. Well, and you've seen several generations in your time
here. How do they compare? Well, um
in my generation,
we adhere to the traditional values
which we learned from our parents.
The new generation is more innovative. They want to branch out, they want
to innovate, they want to experiment, they want to try something new.
And I think a lot of that, of course, is the influence of uh electronics
television
and uh the internet that stimulates you that there's so much material
there. And the younger generation of course is right in the midst of that
you also taught that middle generation, the one they call the baby boomer
generation. How were they different? Well,
I guess the baby boomers are between me and the new generation.
Uh I, I pick the baby boomers of uh as a group are solid because they are
products of the depression and they understand hard times, they understand
uh fundamental things like the value of work, the work ethic.
That's, and then the new generation, they don't understand that work, work
ethic in the same way. Uh, they, uh, I think they do it because they have
to do it but they don't appreciate it as much as those who were raised in
the, in the depression. Remember, I said some, a little time ago, the most
priceless thing during the depression was a job having a job because 25%
of the eligible personnel did not have a job. Mhm. So young people today
don't value a job in the same way. Right. I, I think of the modern
generation that was the job because it is a livelihood and, uh, they value
a job because it's a challenge and they innovate and maybe change the
parameters and, and make it a better place.
Let's go back and talk a little bit more about Russell Nelson when he
first came here. What did, what did you think of him when he first arrived
? He was different from other presidents. He was different and, um,
wanted to um make changes. There's one thing he was president during a
period of great growth.
If you char the growth of a su now the largest university in the United
States. And that's only the main campus. By the way. If you chart it,
you'll find when President Russell Nelson was here, it jumped and he had
to manage it and uh to help manage it, he appointed me special assistant
to him and that's, and, and then I had other jobs with them. But each time
I said, but you must continue, you must permit me to teach, continue to
teach. And they would all agree.
Although I would work during the day and then teach at night. So I don't
know that that was a good bargain. But, uh, sounds like they got double
duty from you. But in those days in public administration, my discipline,
a lot of the uh classes were at night because we were teaching, uh, master
and doctoral students.
So we had a lot of night classes and a lot of them were in the workforce.
That was the time they could come to school.
One of the things that happened during Russell Nelson's term as president
was some of the problems with the sports department and you got involved
with sports,
the sports department here at the university. You got involved with the
sports department, didn't you? For a while,
uh, mentioned one incident, uh, uh, of the problem that, that, that'll
trigger my memory. Well, with the NCAA.
Oh, yeah. Yep.
Uh, that was one of the sad experiences. That's why I, I learned to forget
it.
Um,
we were under five violations of the NCAA basketball, men's track, women's
track
and baseball and one other.
And so,
and at that time I was special assistant to Russ. He said, would you go
down to the Air Strike Department
and find out what's going on? What's, what's the difficulty?
And he said, in order to give you status, I'll appoint you assistant
director. So I was assistant director to Dick Tamburo, who was the
athletic director. So I spent six months, uh reviewing interviewing,
studying that I reported to the, um president, what the problem was and he
asked, is it uh correctable?
And I said, not with the president administration because we have a
culture problem there.
What's that? I said, what we have done in the athletic department, we have
given the coaches a lot more authority than they should have without a
control mechanism.
And so we've developed a culture favoring cultures
and uh
their objective is to win and sometimes they stretch the regulation and
they get caught doing it.
So he sat down,
can we correct? It said not under the president administration. Well, then
he did a very surprising thing. He the fire Dick Da Burro and made me the
athletic director. He said straighten it out.
That was a quick solution from his point. Of view. I did but you know how
I did it, I simply fired all the coaches
and you had the power to do that. I had the power to do that. That isn't
as easy as it sounds
because when you fire a coach, you fire his or her entire staff because
the new coach will bring a new staff. So you fire the secretaries and the
work studies. You fire the whole thing,
But I had been through this firing thing in the military after you
accomplish your mission in this firing, which is a nasty business. Then
you can become generous.
That's a trick in firing. You have the ax fall and then you become
generous as generous as you can. For example, I continued all the
terminations
with six months pay
and for the professionals like the coaches and the assistant coaches, I
provided officers secretarial help and employment agency, assistant picked
up the tab for all of that so that they could get a job and most of them
did in six months. And then I continued the health insurance for one year
because the families all depended on health insurance. So we continued
that for one year for everybody
and uh that worked out, ok? And we finally straightened it out. Uh Only
one bad reaction. Um We Meyer who was the basketball coach came to see me
and said, you can't follow me. And I asked why he said, uh because I have
a contract. I said I do. I know that it's a one year contract. That was
the rule, you could give only one year contracts. So I'm, I'm firing you
at the end of your contract period. But he said I got a five year contract.
I said, no, you don't have a five year contract because we're not given
five year contracts. Well, what did that bureau had done to keep him? He
was a good coach. He had given him five consecutive one year contracts
while it was illegal on the face of it, both by the, the giver and the
taker. So I said, I'm firing you anyway. Well, he sued me and he had a
good case because he had the evidence. So we finally settled for half a
million dollars and got out of it that way.
That's one lesson I've learned over the years. If you can solve the
problem with money, do it? Get back, get behind you. So then you had to
hire a bunch of new coaches. Uh, I, I didn't do that. We, uh, uh, needed a
lot of new coaches and I was phasing out. It was time for me to get out. I
wanted to go back to the faculty full time and, uh, Harris was coming in,
I think Charles Harris. Uh, and so I said, let Charles Harris do it. So
the new coach came in, the new aircraft director came in and did it and
you went. Where did you go from there? Well, I went back to the college of
public programs and continued teaching, which is what I, why I came to the
university in the first place. It seems like they used you for a lot of
other things. So, whenever there was a problem you were the one they went
to. Yeah, I, I was, uh, pleased to do it, uh, as a result of these
activities, uh, my department presented me with a, um, a fire helmet
painted red on the basis that I was skilled in putting out fires. And I
have it hanging on the wall of my office.
That's great. Um, do you want to talk about any of the other challenges
that you had of putting out fires in the university?
I think those were the major ones.
Um, so in teaching the students, what sort of advice do you give the young
people today that are trying to decide what they want to do with their
lives? There's a lot of opportunity to interact with them at the breaks
and the lunch period. At the present time, I'm teaching on Saturday, six
days, six hours a day, three hours for one class, we break for lunch for
one hour and then another three hours and we do it every other Saturday.
Uh, during that time, I have a lot of opportunity to rap with them. And so
I invariably ask them what their career goals are and uh and, and that's
quite revealing as to what uh as they perceive their future. Now, one of
the things I do in all my classes, I asked students to prepare a five
minute talk about themselves and I wanted to in three parts, part one is
their background where they come from their youth. Second, what are they
doing today? And then the third part is what are their career goals? Where
are they going tomorrow? And that's that some of them thinking that may
not, may not have thought about it before. And I think the uh asking of
the Kels is very important. Now, I also monitor some doctoral students and
I work with them and um I asked them the same question, well, about uh
half of them roughly and even 50% want to go into teaching, 50% want to go
into administration.
Now, that's interesting to me because when you go into teaching, right,
from achieving a doctorate, you're entering a life of genteel poverty,
you have to go through five years of 10 year evaluation and then you get
the tenure. If you're lucky at the end of five years, you start at about
$32,000 a year and creep up and it is creepy. Or by if you elect to go to
administration, you probably achieve a salary of 65 or $70,000 a year
because there are not many doctorate graduates at city or state level in
public administration.
But it's interesting that 50% do have the, uh, the love of teaching and
want to be a teacher that's very heartwarming.
What sort of advice do you give them? Thank you. Uh,
I, I try not to um
develop their career in any way. And, uh I'm very, very, uh broad in that
, on that question. I uh, tell them, listen, spend more time listening.
Then you do talking,
keep your, um, lectures to a minimum.
People don't learn from lectures. I learned that people don't learn from
the textbook really. So I advise them to take the textbook, excuse me
and uh, develop the lessons of the text into case studies and then have
them solve the case study.
Now to solve a case study, you must know the entire background of what
went into that case. And in this instance, it would be the textbooks.
See the lessened areas. Let the student do the work, don't you do the work
?
So what I do in class, I listen to the, um, students tell me how they've
solved the case and I can tell how well they've absorbed the literature to
make it more interesting. If I have nine students or uh, 12, I form teams
of teams of three.
And then I have the teams compete with each other as to which team does
the best job and who judges that I do.
This is tape two with Frank Sac and I'm Pam Stevenson. Um, let's see,
let's go back and talk a little bit more about your coming out to a U. Um
, you came as a student first but, um, you're first working here, you were
talking a little about salaries that people get today. What kind of
salaries did you get when you first came out here?
I remember distinctly $18,000 a year for, uh,
for an academic year. Not very much because I was used to work for a
salary as a three star general in the army. However, the salary wasn't the
important thing. By the way, my salary today, when I asked to continue
teaching, I saw, um, and Milton Glick, he was a president then and he said
, uh, well, let's negotiate salary. And I said, look, salary isn't a
problem. Why don't we make it 25%
of, um, what is a professor?
He said, well, that's quite generous. So he made it 25% and you know what
, that amounts to just about $18,000 a year, huh? Just like I started, but
you're only teaching one class or, you know, two classes, I guess. Um,
where, where were your first classes? Where, what part of campus were you
located on? We started by first classes. We in the Social sciences
building
and then we moved to, um, the headquarters, moved to Wilson Hall and since
then we've been all over the lot. My best of classrooms. I think are in
West Hall,
beautiful classrooms. Is that where you are now?
Um And you sort of started your own department then right after you were,
um, let's see, we asked people about who their first boss was here on
campus. Do you remember who you reported to when you started working here
? The first one was Brett Brown. He was at the director of the, that new
thing they did, the, the Center for Public Affairs. What happened
DF
Political Science. People had both political science and a public
administration teaching thing. And they did think that was harmonious.
They wanted to be only political scientists. So they broke it off and made
it a separate department at that time, they called it a center. So then
they began asking who would want to take it. None of the professors were
interested.
And uh Brett Brown had just shown up into the political Science. So they
simply appointed him to take over the new department.
So you've known Brett Brown a long time then, haven't you? Yes, I, he was
really the first one I reported to. As a matter of fact, I reported to him
before he took the department, I had left the governor's office and was
interested in coming back to school and came to him for advice. He was in
charge of the discipline that I was interested in public administration.
So he advised me about the, uh about uh taking courses and I did and then
uh appointed me up a teaching assistant to him. So I became Brett Brown's
teaching assistant.
That was a pretty distinguished teaching assistant. I would say
Brown was a good boss. He permitted me to do a good deal of teaching. So
would you say then he's the one that was responsible for you really coming
out to a su
not responsible for my coming but responsible as the first person to lead
the way as to what I should do.
Who were some of the other people that were here at that time? You came
here that uh John Hall was here
and um
there was one author in the department. I I don't recall.
Of course. Then we filled up with people like Dick Revis who's now Dean of
the School of Architecture at the U of A. Uh he, he was a freshly minted
uh A phd from University of Southern California when he came to work for
us.
Those were the important ones. Uh Dicker Revis and John Hall,
you've worked pretty closely with all the presidents. You talked a little
about Russell Nelson. You remember when Laddie Core came? Um What, what
did you think about Lady? Your first impression? I, I enjoyed working for
uh Lady Core. Lady Core
was interested in my basic discipline, finance within public
administration. So he put me to work to uh compare
our system and our budget with other universities, particularly in
California. So I, I made these studies for him in terms of, um, uh, uh,
money and finance and appropriation.
And he also, uh, was interested in how best to approach you see, to get
money in a department like ours. You had to sell the program to, uh, the
legislature and then you'd have to go through the appropriation committees
first, the House and then the, uh, the Senate.
And, uh, so he put me to work on the strategy and, and by the way, I'm
familiar with that subject. And what I advised him, what I had learned is
and not go before these committees alone and ask for money because they
know you're an interested party. And they uh take that into consideration
as to whether they will give you the money or not, but to develop a
constituency
that will help you get the money. So he asked, uh can you mention some
names? I said, yeah, one is Jack Feaster. Jack Feaster used to volunteer
to teach for us for free.
He was a newly appointed as a manager of the Salt River project. So he was
, they knew they didn't know me or they didn't know the faculty, but they
knew J Feaster. Then we had um to others. So when we asked for money, we
only introduced the subject and then the constituency well known to the
panel would make the case for us. Of course, back in those days, the
legislature was a lot different than it is today too, wasn't it? It was
different. The big difference.
It is a maturity when I came here early on, the legislature was controlled
pretty much by the old boys network
because we were a small state and, and people knew each other. So the old
boys network came into play, uh, that, of course, has changed now, it's
very professional
who were some of the, the old boys that, that you worked with. Uh, the, uh
,
I never was part of the network. The people I worked with were not part of
the network, either Brett Brown or John Hall. They were not part of this
network. Is that the period when, um, Burton Barr and Stan Turley and
people like that were there,
it was a and not only in this network, he controlled it,
uh, we learned in the budget business, uh to get Burt Bar on our side as
quickly as we could because he was very helpful. He was very helpful. Not
only with the legislature, he was helpful in any enterprise involving
state government. Mhm. Yeah. Did you get much involved in politics or did
you try to stay out of that? I tried to stay out of it, but I went to work
for Governor Jack Williams.
He made that point directly. He said there are a lot of politics in this
state but if you get involved in some kind of a discussion, duck, it
responds
probably good. Advice. Um,
but you, you've seen the ch, the state change a lot since you and the
university since you came. Right. I, I've been at the university, uh, 27
years, the previous three years because I've been around 30 a little over
30 years. I was with Governor Jack Williams, but I've been teaching about
27 years. So I've been associated with the faculty in one way or another
now for 27 years. And there has been a change there and the change has all
been for the better. It's been a change to better professionalism
in the conduct of our work. And the uh the classes uh show a immaturity.
We do a lot more work. Like I mentioned the case study method instead of
reading the textbook and getting examinations out of the textbook or
lectures. I have learned that lectures are deadly. Stay away from lectures
or make them very, very short.
What do you feel is the most notable achievement that you have had at the
university?
I think the thing that, um
I would have to judge the question between the athletic director and dean
of the College of Public Programs.
Uh They were both challenges
and very rewarding after the challenge was solved. Maybe it's a tie
between the two.
How would you like to be remembered here?
I think the way I'd like to be remembered that at 93 years of age, I'm
still in the workforce trying to contribute.
That's a pretty notable achievement. I think you're doing a good job of it.