I'll identify that. I'm Pam Stevenson and uh Manny Garcia is our
photographer. We're doing an interview today. It's October 22nd, 2003. And
this is an interview for the Arizona State Retirees Association, a living
history video project. It's quite a mouthful uh here at a su um So to
start off, why don't we, you identify yourself, just tell me your name and
uh what your position was when, when you retired from a su Well, I'm
Victor J Miller. I was a professor of horticulture here at Arizona State
College and University. I had to watch my words there because I came here
the first of April of 1958 and it was Arizona State College at that time.
And I, I was here then until I retired in January of uh 1986. So I was
here from uh 58 to 86. Really then? And uh and you're still around here.
Um Just to go back, why don't you tell me where you were born? And when
you were born, where you grew up? Well, I was born in 1921 in a little
village in southern Illinois And uh I was the third of four Children. And
um we had, my father was in uh carpentry, construction uh architecture.
Anyway, we moved up to Urbana Illinois and we were living in what was to
be a garage. Ultimately, uh uh three Children and the parents. And uh then
my father died and I was four and my younger brother was then born four
months later. And my mother moved back to Southern Illinois from urban
Illinois. And uh in uh the home country you might say of the families. And
, um, we lived in the little village of Sidney while I went through the
first three grades of school. And then we moved to the county seat. It had
4000 people. And, uh, my mother worked in a dress factory when she could
and did some independent sewing when she could. And, uh, this was the
depth of the depression. And, uh, I guess we didn't have anything but we
didn't miss it because we never had it. So anyway, we enjoyed life. We
boys would go out to the reservoir in the summertime every day and we
liberated a broken rowboat and hauled it home on a coaster wagon. Uh,
borrowed a board from somewhere and nailed it in, borrowed a tar from the
city and tarred up the cracks and we had a boat. I've never had a boat
since. So I was more prosperous when I was there. But anyway, then, um,
when I was a freshman in high school. My mother remarried and we married a
farmer and we moved on to a farm. And so then in high school I began
taking vocational ag classes. And, uh, one time I raised two pigs that
didn't interest me very much. And we had a four acre peach orchard down on
the farm. And that was a lot better to me than pigs. And, um, another
project I, uh, raised raspberries. And, uh, so then my senior year in
college, we had a new ag teacher, I say new one, we'd had the same one for
, I think, 15 years. But anyway, we had a replacement for him. And, uh,
this, uh, new one, Bill Richie took some of us down to Carbondale, which
is now Southern Illinois University, um, to an AG banquet and some, one of
the boys was asking about a scholarship to Illinois. They explained how
you got that. And I had never thought of college in my life, but that
triggered me. I got to think, well, gee, maybe I can get that and go. And
, uh, so I went and got the applications that and got the signatures and
then we had to take a test and each county got one in agriculture, one in
home economics and one in general one. And so I won the agriculture one.
Fortunately, the boy who asked, although I beat him out after he
triggered me at my interest uh, he got one too because if the county did
not use theirs, it was allocated somewhere else. So, we both got a
scholarship. So I went to University of Illinois then and, uh, the classes
I took it was a horticulture ones and fruits and vegetables and things
that interested me more than anything else. So, that's what I emphasized
in my college work. Then. What were your goals then in going to college?
What did you think you were going to do with that education? Well, at that
time, I really didn't know no one in my family had ever gone to college.
And, uh, I thought, well, at least that's something I, something I'll be
able to do when I get through. And, uh, unfortunately, a war came along
about that time and, uh, I was graduating in 1942 and, uh, they had the
second draft for people as it was after Pearl Harbor. And, um, I think I
drew about 17 nationally, which means I was probably number one in my
small home county. And, um, so anyway, I got to finish college and, uh,
before I went into service. So, what branch of the service did you serve
in? Where did you go? Well, I got in and they sent me to California to a
heavy weapons training company that's heavy weapons is water, cool, 30
caliber machine guns and 81 millimeter mortars. And, uh, this was a, let
me think if I think of the right term here. A voc outfit. Now, that was a
volunteer officer candidate. They weren't drafting married men. But if a
married man wanted to try to be an officer, he could enroll and list and
go through basic training. And then there were boards to go before and, uh
, they'd question you and if you pass the boards you got to go to officer
candidate school and if you didn't pass, then you got discharged. Well, I
wasn't married. So that didn't enter in. But uh most fellows were applying
for this officer candidate school. And near the end of the 13 weeks, the
company commander called me and he said, well, you've never applied for OC
si was a college graduate. I said, no, sir. He said, why I said, well, in
all honesty,
I fear that I would be like some of the lieutenants we have here and
completely incompetent. And I just don't believe I can stand that.
I don't know how that sat with him, but it's the way I felt. I, I just
didn't feel that I was really a command material at that time and they
were miserable. Uh Anyway, he said, well, I'm going to send you to the NCO
school. So I finished the 13 weeks and he sent me there
along with the famous uh tennis player at the time. Uh a pro tennis player
Frankie Kovacs and the two of us went to that school. Um, Frankie was tall
and handsome and uh, uh, the officers loved to get him to go play tennis
with him on weekends. And, uh, one time we were having inspections and
none of them said Kovacs. Where are your shoes? Other pair of shoes you
had to have out on inspection. And my barracks bag, sir will get them out.
He shakes the bag and they roll out across the floor. They were all
wriggled up from being scrubbed and everybody laughed. They couldn't help
it anyway. He and I went there and then after a couple of weeks, I got
word to come out and they put me on a train and shipped me back east. And
uh we spent seven days on the train, didn't know where we were going
except one morning I got up to be on KP and I looked out and I thought,
boy, this looks like miserable country. This was sure about mid November a
little past mid Novem ground. Sear.
Finally we came to town Mount Vernon, Illinois and I realized where we are.
We're on the southern railroad going through my hometown. So we head on
east to Fairfield, Illinois. We went a half mile south of our farm and
then we passed the high school and out there in the lot was our Pontiac
that my little brother had at school. And then we came to First Street and
the block north on first street lived this most beautiful girl in the
world whom I didn't take care for me. But I was getting very sweet on her
and the train just kept chunk, chunk, chunk, chunk. We went to North
Carolina to camp Butner. Anyway, I spent some time there and then they
were looking for volunteers for a ranger battalion and uh they shipped out
all our men and we're getting in new replacements. And so I volunteered
for the rangers and, um, was accepted, I was a staff sergeant or a, I was
a three stripe sergeant at that time. And, um, they
sent us to, uh Tullahoma Tennessee camp for, to form this ranger battalion.
And, uh, so we spent six weeks there, went to a couple of weeks of rubber
boat training in Florida, which was interesting then back up north to Fort
Dix, New Jersey and I got a furlough from there to go home. And while
there, my third grade teacher had a party and she was the aunt of this
girl that I was very sweet on. And that was the first time I thought
really, maybe she would care for me. She got us together if you can
impress your third grade teacher. I tell you, you've got the world at your
fingertips.
Anyway.
Uh, it was back then we went over to England in January and um, then went
into Omaha Beach on D day and uh, the job they'd picked out for us. And so
we went through there, got through France and Germany pretty well. And
finally in late February 3 miles behind the German lines where we were
holding a road so they couldn't use it. Uh, after couple of days or so,
some of us got captured. So I spent a couple of months in the guest of the
German government and then got home, got back to college, got married to
that beautiful girl. And uh so I got my graduate work in and uh why don't
you back up just a minute? That sounds like a pretty um harrowing
experience during the war that you were actually a prisoner of war for
several months. Yes, this was um, we were getting the very low on men. I,
I had a section that was uh two squads of five men each and uh we had uh
light machine gun at CF 30 at this time. We didn't have our murders and um
we were down now you had one gun left and uh we had an attack that
afternoon and uh my squad leader of that squad got wounded rather bad and
I got a piece in my neck. And after the raid was repulsed by, we went back
to the aid station and set up a pill box and captured. They kept Floyd the
squad leader and patched my neck up and I went back and I only had one man
left was,
and that was usable. I says, well, if you, I'll take the gun as long as I
can stay awake tonight. And, uh, so I stayed up till about one o'clock.
I couldn't stay awake any longer and I woke up huff and I got my slit
trench right behind the gun and went to sleep. And when I woke up, the gun
is well early while I'm there, they were zero. The artillery in front of
me close enough. Every time a shell hit it threw dirt over me. That's how
close this was our, our artillery zero did. I was happy for that.
But then I woke up and Pump is dead and the machine guns firing back over
me and my rifles up over the, out of the slit dredge over the pile of dirt
alongside it. And I can't had a 45.
So I get out. Well, I'm gonna die valiantly here. And the first German I
see through the trees. Pow. He drops his knees. Oh, you couldn't anybody
here in the woods in the middle of the night? Pow. He flops on his tummy,
ah, playing possum, huh? Pal. About that time. Three more step out of the
site. And they suddenly say, well, now, what do you do here? Do you shoot
one of them and die or do you maybe try to surrender? We probably couldn't
take prisoners on a night attack like that. We didn't have enough men to
handle them and I didn't figure they would
your whole life goes before your eyes, so to speak. How many have you
captured Floyd? The squad leader just got hurt up around breast. He had, I
captured.
This sounds silly. We captured about 35 heavily armed Germans one day
moving up. This is a situation when he looked over. Hey, look over the
hedge row, we can just see the tops of the helmets coming and we ran
around there at the gap, we stood there with our rifles primed. And as
they came around the bend in the hedge row, there's piles of dirt on each
side. They dead to rights. I mean, all they can do is keep coming. And we
captured the whole squad of 37 men. Well, we captured a lot of others and
killed several with our borders. And have I done enough to justify trying
to surrender? And I thought, well, I tried it. So I, I, when they poked in
my hole with a rifle, I said, camera,
this is,
this is kind of getting away from our a su but anyway, uh I'd said I only
had one usable man. We had Sergeant Stucker there whose nerves had been
shot, he was supposed to get transferred, but they brought him on this
operation. He wouldn't do anything but sit his hope, he wouldn't do
anything.
So while I'm standing out there captured, wonder if they're gonna shoot me.
One of them prodded in stucker hole and he said, hand the hope hands up.
Well, the fellow just pull the trigger and that gave the stucker. So they
, I thought they'd probably shoot me, but they finally marched me back
through the woods to a little town into the, um, well, the local tavern
was their headquarters. So we go in there and, uh, there was Joey
Markowitz. Now Joey had been our Bazooka man. He carried the Bazooka Shore
on the invasion. Carried it all through France into Germany. We've never
seen an armored vehicle and that previous afternoon they put out mines in
the road and an armored vehicle came along and they hollered for joy. It
stopped there and they were looking at the mine and Joey ran down, there
was a Bazooka fired a shot and hit the thing. And so they jumped out of
the vehicle and ran and Joy's there and everybody else came to look at the
vehicle and they all left, but Joey is still admiring it and sudden, hey,
they got joy. They came back out of the woods, took joy prisoner and left
with him. So there was joy in there drinking beer.
BJ, what do you do? So anyway, that was how I became a captive. So we've
moved several times from camp to camp and ultimately three of us escaped
when we were in. That's a long story too. But they picked us up after a
couple of days and took us by train to Munich for interrogation. And then
up to the camp and um we were there about two weeks and it was liberated.
I got back to America quite an adventure. So you, you say you escaped and
then you were captured by the, well, there was one fellow that was always
wanting to escape, escape, escape. Now, the war is about over. We all know
that you didn't want to get shot for it. On the other hand, we're just
marching, We're getting practically nothing to eat. We're sleeping in the
field at night in the cold wet ground and it's not very happy existence.
And finally, they had split us up and put a bunch of us in a barn said
we'd be there two nights and this whole group, uh, we had about seven that
had been in our company who were all wanting to escape.
And, uh, I said, well, all right, we're gonna be here two nights. We'll
look around tomorrow and if it looks favorable and we can leave tomorrow
night, we try it and well, then everybody else backed out except this one
is always wanting to escape. And then one who spoke German, who wasn't
going to go. He said, well, I'll go with you then. So the three of us, we
and we traded for a little bit of food and, uh, threw away all of our
excess paraphernalia we carried. And, um, behind the barn was a slit
transfer latrine. And then there were piles of faggots out there up 5 6 ft
high. And there always a couple of guards out there. And then when we
marched, there were dogs along and, uh, we didn't know where the dogs were
, but there was a hedge around this place and there was a little path
going out through the left, through the, through the hedge.
I said, well, maybe we could do it. So when it got dark, we got down to
the door and when you got down low, uh, they had wandered, the guards had
wandered around behind the fagots where you couldn't see the cigarettes.
So you knew they couldn't see the bottom of the door. So I said, well,
keep five yards apart and follow me and I crawl out the door, crawl across
the lot, crawl through the fence of the hedge. Can't hear a thing. Those
son of a guns aren't coming. Look around there right on my heels. We crawl
a couple 100 yards and we got up and took off. Now, that sounds good. And
it took off. Where do you go? You're in the middle of Germany. I had a big
map about this big, uh, well, if we go southwest Switzerland is that way,
we'll never get there. But you gotta have some direction. And so by the
stars, we started going southwest across country after we hear frogs. W he
says, one who spoke German says, wonder where they are about that time. He
disappeared. He slid down a 10 ft bank, we fish him out of the swamp and
we came to road going southwest. So we took it. We just marched through
these little towns and everybody's asleep. And, and finally about dawn, we
thought, well, we better get out of here. And we went back behind the
field, um,
climbed another fence and there was a field, had a little patch of
evergreens in it. We went over to it and bend it down just beyond it.
There was a drop off with trees.
We woke up a noise. There was a German soldier out there picking up sticks.
As soon as he left, we sneaked over the other side of the patch of
evergreens and bend it down again. We each had one blanket
and here came a German soldier from the other direction. He came, he
walked right up to the trees, he climbed the fence, came right up to us
and, ah, and then I translate his German since I didn't speak it while he
did. And what are you doing here? Oh, well, he said we're just going to
work well, then, why don't you go? So, we got up, rolled up her blankets
over her shoulder and took off and they had a lot of prisoners in the
country. So we got back on the road and there wasn't any place to stop
because every hedge, every haystack had a gun in it. And, uh, we just kept
going. And mid afternoon we'd stopped to eat a little lunch and they had
an air raid behind us. We could see the bombs coming down through the
clouds.
Finally, it stopped the head of us. There was a little town, a bridge over
the stream and we thought, well, if we walk, walk around and for this
stream, it's gonna look rather strange. So we just took off and marched
right through the town. Everybody's coming out. By that time, we just
march right through, just kept going like we knew what we were doing.
Nobody bothered us up ahead was a group of Russians working in a big cut
and there was a big fat German there with his arms on his a Kimbo looking
at us. I said, I don't like his looks. We better climb out of here. So we
scrambled up the slope to, he scrambled up the slope, begin shouting at us
as we better go. Wally, Wally says, ignore him. He just wants to know who
we are and where we're going, ignore him. So we just walk up across the
country leaving him. And then we came to a bridge over an auto bond. Uh,
that uh doesn't sound like too startling a thing. But suppose you never
heard of an auto bond. You've never seen an auto bond and suddenly you see
the road going across country and uh over mounted by some trees on the far
side, there were some structures of some kind back in there. We could see
and we kept going, we ran into a little Russian boy and while we talked to
him and we'd, we had dug, this was uh April. We had dug up potatoes. They
had just planted and they just put a furrow down, throw in manure and
dropped the potato and cover it up. And we'd gone down through the potato
patch, dug up the potato had to sack him and we wanted some salt and we'd
like to have some matches so we could maybe cook them. And, um, so he was
going to town and he brought some salt and some matches and some bread and
some civilian clothes for Waller who chose not to put them on. He said,
you can't get out of here soldiers everywhere. If you stay here, I'll try
to bring some food each day.
We're in, by this time back in a haystack in the woods. Well, it didn't
sound very romantic. We remember this strawberry jam we had liberated from
houses and we were fighting. We just kept thinking that strawberry jam and
the first isolated house we came to, we were gonna try to tackle it. And,
uh, so as soon as it got dark, we took off and, uh, the first road
crossing we came to, they had a guard out there. He stopped us. Where are
you going? Uh, we're going to, to work. We've seen to sign, oh, Well,
where are your papers that we lacked? And so anyway, he got very excited
and he was, of course, that air raid, they had guards out marches down to
the local headquarters again in the tavern. And they weren't happy with
this at all. We told them we were just doughboys, we weren't there. We
were just doughboys out for a stroll. And finally they made us take off
our boots and they were all worn out socks and they knew we didn't come
down there and then they were friendly, apologize. They didn't have any
place to keep us. We'd have to go five kilometers to the next town and
which we did and ended up in a jail cell with a bed big enough for three
of us. And then it was by train to Munich and so on.
So you were finally when you finally freed then, well, on uh April the
29th, uh Patton came through and that camp and liberated. I didn't see
Patton. Uh I go to the next prisoner war group every Tuesday morning and
several were in this camp and they were how everybody else is down there
where Patton got up on his jeep with these pearl handle revolvers. I don't
know. But uh they're, they're all uh very vociferous that he was there and
all they were all there. And no, I wasn't,
but I was liberated. I guess we should come back to the United States and
and talk about how you ended up at a su, well, my first job, uh, uh, my
first position, they were wanting a horticulturalist at the University of
Nebraska. And, um, so I, we had negotiated and I went out for an interview
in the summer of, uh, 48 I guess it was. And, um, so then they offered me
the position there and, uh, I used to get 4200 a year month off. And so
the first of February,
I hadn't finished my dissertation yet, but uh uh I could finish it in
absentia. And um, so we moved to Lincoln, Nebraska, then the first of
February of uh 4049.
And um and your dissertation was on the relationship of plastic pigments
to color in the golden delicious apple.
Yes. For my phd from University of Illinois. Yes. I'd gotten out of
service and uh on uh October 3rd, I think it was and went up to Illinois.
Let me say that when I got home, I had a 60 day delay en route to Miami
Beach Florida to Redistribution Station. And uh so I've been courting this
girl rather assiduously and things were going pretty well and uh I did go
out and paint the farmhouse while I was there and uh things like that,
things were going well. So I wrote in and said, I'm working on the farm.
I'm were enjoying the sunshine and the good food. I'm getting stronger. I
could use 30 more days. So they gave me 30 more days. So I had 90 days at
home there and she finally said she would marry me. But, uh, uh, she
wouldn't marry me. Then. I said, well, if, if you marry me, we can stay in
the hotel down in Miami Beach. And, uh, well, we don't have an iron and we
don't have sheets and none of those seem very important to me. But I said
, I'll never take you to Florida then. But uh, so then when I got to,
wanted to go to school, um I went up to Illinois and they didn't really
have any assistance ships in horticulture. Uh One fellow wanted to send me
back to New Jersey where his father in law was Chairman of Horticulture.
And that was a long way from this girl. And uh then a friend who had been
an undergraduate when I was, is now on the staff. And he didn't, you have
a lot of botany? And I said, well, yes. So he took me up to Botany
Department. And 15 minutes later, I walk out with an assistantship in
Botany. And then he was living in a graduate fraternity. He said, well,
you can stay with us till you find an apartment and finding an apartment
was a difficult thing that everybody was. And in fact, they had delayed
opening college two weeks while they tried to find housing and they got
places that uh, Rantoul, which was an airbase north of Verba, uh, that
they could use. And, uh, so finally I've managed to rent an apartment
which was, uh, one big room with an open gas heater in it and a cut off
outdoor porch for a kitchen and, uh, 54 families sharing the bathroom. But
anyway, it was a, it had a roof over our heads. We got married on
Thanksgiving Day. What year was that? 45.
So anyway, from our experiences at Illinois, then we went to Nebraska and
things went reasonably well there. I guess I ultimately had become
chairman of the horticulture Department at the University of Nebraska. And
uh figured they'd probably bury me there. And then I had a letter from the
Arizona State Colleges. They were looking for a horticulturist who could
teach everything, fruits, vegetables, landscaping. And I circulated around
the department, but nobody was interested and I wrote back and says, well
, I didn't have anyone interested. I didn't know anybody could do that.
But me,
they sent me an application.
One of our foresters had been down to Arizona State and he was very
enthusiastic about the place. I mean, he was here for a meeting and, um,
my wife had a lot of pain in her hips back when she was a couple of years
after she was born. They decided her hips were dislocated and put her in a
cast with her legs extended and she was there six months and like that and
her hips were never good and they were quite painful and it seemed that
maybe the climate down here, the nice warm climate would be more conducive
to her than, uh, the rigors of Nebraska. So anyway, we got to negotiating
some. Finally, they invited me down here for an interview in November of,
uh, uh, 57
and I flew down here and, uh, they wanted me to stay for a football game.
They had an undefeated football team. And um I wanted, I had a friend at
Tucson at the U of A who was in Derry. And he had written me about the
antagonism between the U of a agriculturist and the division of
agriculture here. I said the antagonist was all on their part. But uh
anyway, I thought, well, I, I better go down there. So I went down there
and I talked to the chairman of the horticulture department.
I mean, the Citrus Station was in Tempe and the vegetable station was here
in Mesa and uh the county agent's office. And if I couldn't take my
classes to the Citrus Station or the Vegetables Experiment station and get
help from the county agent, I couldn't be a one man horticulture
department without some support. Well, he assured me that uh at our level
we could get along. He could, he could also not believe that anybody would
leave the chairmanship of the University of Nebraska to come to Arizona
State Colleges to be a professor. That was beyond his comprehension
that uh anyway,
I came, came the first of April. Doctor Dan Robinson was the director of
the division. He started a horticulture class in the spring semester. And
that's a strange time for a professor to move. But I had a, a younger
professor at Nebraska and I for proposition it. Now, if I took this class
, uh till the first of April did this, uh would you feel overburdened if
you took it then from that point on? And you know, that would be quite
fair. So I just got everything lined up and I said I could come the first
of April and that was a nice time to come. The flowers were blooming, nice
and cool.
So anyway, that's how I got here and I came as a full professor. And uh so
I, and how big was the department then? Well, we had a dozen members of
horticulture of uh agriculture there. Roughly speaking, this is uh not a
religious statement, but it was principally latter day saint professors.
Of course, they are the ones that were more into agriculture in those
times and still are for that matter.
So there are only two or three of us who were infidels, I guess in the
division. But uh we all got along well. How important was the agriculture
department at that time? To a su
well, I don't know, it must have had some importance they had, as I
understood it this before my time had set up the division of agriculture
um officially in 1950 appro the legislature appropriated funds for a
building. And so they built the building. Now, the plaque on it says for
agriculture and business, uh but they build a wing of it which did not
have any entrance from the other rest of the building. And surprisingly,
the administration ended up in that wing that was isolated. So they got an
administration building built with agriculture money, I guess. But um they
had always had agriculture here. In fact, at one time, as I learned the
history of the place, every student had to have a garden and plant some
crops. And so that uh um I was,
when I was first here, all of agriculture was in this new building they
had built for that. And uh shortly after that, they build a new science
building and then they moved the science people out of the old science
building. And so agriculture was moved over into the other building which
is noted for having names of famous scientists and the all around the
outside of it. And uh so that's where I moved. It's it was a good move
except that I moved in an office that Doctor Paul Miller had had, he was a
geologist and for years people would drop into my office. Doctor Miller.
Yes. Oh boy, that was a good game. Yes, it, good day, isn't it? Yes.
Finally they'd pull a rock out of their pocket. I, oh, no, you want Paul
Miller? He's gone now. So, anyway, that's where we spent, where I spent
most of my time then here on the campus was agriculture. Were you
surprised when you came to Arizona? And how important agriculture was? And
this was a desert after all? Well, we had the quite a citrus industry. We
had quite a lettuce industry and uh carrots and other vegetables. And uh
so it was really, and of course, in uh the cotton crop and alfalfa. And so
it was uh agricultural place really a lot different from Nebraska though.
Quite different. It was, it was more lively than Nebraska. I mean, this
is what I had thought that uh uh there was more activity going on here in
the, uh let's say, the business world and the academic world in a way than
uh Nebraska was more established than that. Things weren't happening so
fast there. Um Well, what was your, your job? What did you actually teach
or what did you actually do when you first came? Well, I've um Doctor
Robinson had started a veg fruit class, I think it was. And, and I took
that over when I arrived and uh one student later said, you know, we got
an awful lot on apples. That first year it had been one of my principal
objects of study. And Um, so then we, I taught classes in fruit production
and vegetable production and then we started one on turf for uh, lawns and
greens. We called it from, uh, working with the golf course,
Superintendent Sub and um, uh landscaping
and uh landscape plants and then greenhouse production. And so I said, I'm
, I'm the only one who could teach everything and I didn't teach
everything, I guess. Um, so it kept me busy. Tell me about how you got
involved with Channel eight. Well, in the summer of 1963
a young man came over from channel eight and they were wondering about
starting a home gardening, having a home gardening program. And he talked
to Dean Thompson, Dean Lee P Thompson who was Dean of uh engineering and
Applied Sciences. And uh he suggested two or three people he might talk
with. I was one of them. And so we discussed this at some length and what
did you want? And finally, we agreed, we would try a series on home
gardening and uh we only agreed on 13 programs. And so this was the summer
of 63 and we're gonna do this sometime the next winter. So I had time to
think about this and plan 13 sections of horticulture and what you would
do on each. And I came up with the first one and, well, we can do this on
landscaping and we could do this and then we'd stop and do this and then
stop and do this and for a program and I made a house and I made a yard
and walks and if I could put these all down and I went up to the, hey,
you're not smart yourself. I wanted a beautiful lawn for this house. So I
called my friend Art Snyder up at the Paradise Valley Country Club. Art. I
needed a little section of sod. The others had a uh a nursery so they
could always cut some sod. And so I got a nice chunk of sod and I laid it
out there and then I put my house on that, my drive and walks and the only
thing is I didn't realize the ramifications of that because I had a nice
moist sod. And as the cameras roll, this walks begin to curl up and the
drive begins to curl up
anyway. And I thought, well, we will do this and then we'll stop and we'll
do this section. And the director when I suggest this is hell, no, we will
start and we will go for 30 minutes and we will stop. If there's any
interruption in there, any time we will start over, we will start and we
will go for 30 minutes, we will stop. There was no editing equipment.
There was nothing if you did it for 30 minutes and you stopped and then
they looked at the tape to see if it got recorded. And if it did. You were
fortunate if it didn't, you started and you did it again. And so was all
that was all in the studio at that time. And, uh it's kind of challenging
to do gardening in the studio and supposed to outdoor somewhere. Well, um
, I had the foreman from the farm. He would bring a truckload of uh pickup
load of plants in and set up the plants in there. And at least that all
helped. I mean, they did a thing or two like, uh, I got Bob swab who was
in charge of grounds here. He was gonna demonstrate how to start. Uh, just
let it roll. You guys go ahead. I, I need to run to the restaurant, but it
is ok.
Tell me again about how you did the television program. Did you do like
one a day or did you do? Oh, no, we did these 13. I mean, we'd go over. I
had my schedule, class schedule so that I had, I think Wednesday is free
or something like that. And we could always just schedule it that day. And
so we did the 13 programs and they got through and at the end of the
season, they said, well, you know, that went pretty well. Why don't we do
some more next year? I said, well, how many? And they said, well, why
don't we try 20? Well, we started then in the fall, uh, taping and it just
, it went on day and night from then on summer and winter. I mean, if I
was gonna be on a vacation, we'd have to tape some extra ones. And in fact
, I took a year sabbatical to go to Hawaii then one year and they wanted
to keep it going and I finally found an old Rosarian who agreed to come in
and do the program and for the year and, uh, and he did and, uh, so you
did like a show every week you taped it like on Wednesday and ran it? When
did it run? Well, they would run it twice a week generally. Um, I forget
just when it was scheduled now, but it, uh, and then, uh, channel 10
started running it and they would run it at six o'clock, Sunday morning or
something like that. I wonder who would watch it. And yet you would get
letters from people out in the state who had been watching it. So it, uh,
it was viewed, I think the directors were always a little disappointed in
the program and that every time they had a survey of their locally
produced programs. Gardening for fun always came out on top. And, uh, of
course, the directors, this isn't an insult to you, but I mean, they all
want to do some finer things in life, music culture, some fancy art thing.
And, uh, uh, no matter what they did, uh, they just old bound gardening,
dirty gardening. And be the most popular program they produced. And uh not
because of me, but it just the subject I think. Um, so did you become kind
of famous around the state? Did people start recognizing you? Well,
uh I don't know if famous is the right word or not. One time I was going
into Fed Bar and some of them, it's Doctor Miller. Doctor Miller. I had a
friend that saw Lee J Cobb down in heel of bed. I'm gonna call her General.
I saw you at Fed.
Well, I don't know if that's fame or not. People didn't stop you on the
street. And
actually, I, I was, uh, oh,
we were on a trip one time we were going down into, uh, a ha, a Ranger
reunion down in Tennessee. It was actually Kentucky. And, uh, we just got
into Kentucky and we stopped at a filling station and my wife had said you
better get some Cokes in there or something for the group. And there was a
car stop there. And we had flown into ST Louis and rented a car and I went
in and got this that was coming out and some of us fellow stopped me and
said, aren't you from Arizona? Yes.
Aren't you in gardening? I said, well, yes. What are you doing? Driving a
Missouri car?
I just rented it anyway. They were so you never knew who you might see
your neighbors start bothering you for gardening tips too. And well, of
course. And, uh, uh, Mary Lenhardt had been in the public relations office
here at the Arizona State College, Arizona State University and she'd gone
to the Republic and she was in
what you call in charge of several sections of the Republic and Sunday
Republic. And he called me write something for me. I'll pay you for it. Oh
, sure, Mary, I didn't have time to write it a couple of times. She'd
called and it was something I want something on sulfur. So I wrote her
something and other times something I wrote her and she called her, they
ran a Sunday paper column on gardening. And the lady who did it was
getting very elderly and, uh, Mary called, said, well, as long as she
wants to do it, she can do it but she can't do it forever. And, uh, would
you be willing to do it when she stops? And, uh, uh, in a year or two? And
I said, well, I puzzled over that. I didn't really want to get involved.
But I, well, it's a research I'd have to do would be helpful in the TV,
program, helpful in my teaching and keep me active. So I finally said,
well, all right, in a year or two when this works. Well, I'll try it, Mary
, we went on a two week vacation, came back and there's a note from Mary.
I've got permission to start it now. So I started writing a Sunday paper
column and for the Republican. Oh, that went on for 15 years, I guess. So.
How long did you do the gardening show on television? You started that
one in 1963. I started, we taped the first in February of 64 and
then in the late seventies they said we're building a mobile unit that we
can go out and do things on location and, uh, we'd like to make a series
of programs and, uh, you can use it as a class, you repeat them several
times. And so
we, we stopped doing the regular program we've been doing then and, uh, we
spent about a year planning what we, I never planned much, but you got to
plan, what are you going to do? Where are you going to do it? What do you
need to do it? And, uh, uh, first you had to find a place to do it. And,
uh, so we devised 13 programs for each of the two different classes,
having the same subjects with different material in them for spring and
fall semesters. And, uh, we set up a garden area out on our farm there. Uh
,
anyway, we, we set it up so that, uh, we'd have some vts out at the farm
and we can take some programs there and then, uh work it out with people
that go to a, a rather scenic spot of some kind where they were and, uh,
that was kind of a job to get that all lined up. And finally we started
taping then on when I, again, my schedule I keep Wednesday open and we
could go spend Wednesday and sometimes we tape and sometimes we wouldn't,
they're building this, this vehicle and sometimes things worked and
sometimes they didn't work. And, uh, what year was that? Oh, Lord, this
must have been long about, I don't know, 78 or something like that. 77. We
would work it out with the people involved. We get somebody to help out in
the, doing the program. And, um, it's like one time we wanted to do one on
, uh, pruning trees things. And Bill Johnson was our outstanding arborist
around here. And I said, oh, Bill, you do work for all these important
people around us as you find us a place where we can go do this program.
After a couple of weeks ago, I can't come up with any place I had, uh, did
you ever know Aquanetta? Ok. Um Aquanetta had been on the advisory board
of channel eight and I'd met her there and at one time had a call from uh
Initi Har, I think, who was a maid of some kind there at, uh, at uh their
house. And she had a question about a tree. Well, I met Aquanetta and she
had a question about their tree and I said, well, I, oh, she said I tell
you, I'm having a, a party such and such tonight. Why don't you come and
bring your wife and you can see the tree. So I, well, that's different. So
I took my wife and we went up to this party and we uh I saw the tree, a
mulberry tree and uh we went out in this mob of humanity she had there and
, and then this Nishihara I never seen. But anyway, she came up and Doctor
Miller, you're here. Oh, let me get Doc Mr Ross. And she dragged me, Mr
Ross. Mr Ross. Doctor Miller is here. Oh, he says, oh, nice. How nice. You
finally got to meet a celebrity.
Of course, he just run for governor.
Anyway. Anyway, it was, anyway, that was my acquaintance. And so when Bill
couldn't come up with, I called, I called her. I said we tape, this is
your first director had. Well, he looked at it and said, well, if she
won't be in it, you can do it. So anyway, we, we went up there and taped
this program on uh pruning that where you can climb trees, you could climb
out in the back and uh rather scenically, but you didn't get up with that
on your shower. No, that would have been interesting generation. So, um
well, talk a little bit more about your career at uh a su um you know,
that you were busy doing a lot of things. Well, I was kind of in charge of
the horticultural group as
life went on rather smoothly.
Whole life never goes on smoothly. I mean, our early years here we had to
uh I never got into politics but you got into things like the John Birch
Republican or John Birch Group and uh they, they're trying to get a state
law passed that you have to swear allegiance to the state. It didn't
mention the constitution and the law at all. And uh Doctor Weldon
Schafstall, dean of Students was the
uh local representative of the group. Anyway, at the Toastmasters meeting
one morning, he told how he'd been down at the state Capitol lobbying to
get this law passed. And uh the next Sunday, I came out, the next meeting
, I came out and got up in a table top or something. I proposed that he be
fired because he was trying to get me fired because he was advocating this
law and I could never sign an oath like that. And that meant I would be
out of a job. And if you're going to get me fired, I think we should get
him fired first. And
anyway, that upset him and uh his wife said he will never go back to
Toastmasters. All that Miller is there anyway. Ok. Uh We had things like
President Durham calls a special faculty meeting and the former, the
police chief in Utah comes down and tells how a friend of his tells him
he's got, I think 5000 men under arms waiting for him just to give the
word so they can take over the government. And I mean, this is, that's
what we were fighting. And, um, anyway, I became for some reason, elected
chairman of the faculty assembly long about 63 or something like that. And
, and we've been fighting over our constitution and the first meeting in
the fall, I,
we finally got the constitutional issue settled that day. But after being
elected to that in the summer, we were going to um meetings or
horticulture meetings up in uh Massachusetts at the University of
Massachusetts. And before I left Danny Keegan, who was my next door
neighbor said, hey, have you heard that Vice President Richard is going to
Richardson is going to be relieved of his duties. And I said, no, I hadn't
heard that. And uh while I was back in Illinois, I got a letter from Denny.
He sent a clipping out of the paper. Vice President Richardson had asked
to be reassigned to teaching and relieved of his administrative duties.
And uh he was being uh replaced by Doctor John Ryan, who was currently at
the University of Massachusetts as an aide to the president or something.
And we were on our way there. So when we got there, I, well, what should
I do? I, I finally, I went to the president's office there and I looked
for John Ryan and they, they got me to him. He was a delightful person and
uh uh he wanted to get together with he and his wife that night, my wife
and learn something about schools and things like that here. So we, we had
a, an instant acquaintance you might say with our new vice president there
, which I always liked him very much.
What, what was the, the most special thing about your career here? What do
you remember or proud of? Well, it endured that. Uh
Why shouldn't it injure? Well, agriculture was always being kept balanced
, should it exist or shouldn't it exist? The U of A was always fighting.
And finally, they, at one time, they were discussing this and uh had a
regents hearing and uh should they split up agriculture? And we had three
different groups. Really? And I went to the hearing. I, I did the old
stick, the old thing of wrapping three sticks together if you can't break
this, but you take them apart as they were talking of doing. Now here goes
ag business. He snaps at the flint fly and here's ag science and here's ag
production. I like to hit one of the regions
I did rather violently anyway, you had things like that going on. And uh
ultimately, uh one of the regions who had received many awards from Tucson.
Uh
Well, we should have a study of agriculture in the state and just study
with their study, they concluded that uh well, Arizona State should not be
in production agriculture. If they're not in production agriculture, they
don't need a farm, but that's where you produce things. And so they take
the farm away. So anyway, they, this proceeded and happened and, and Dean
Thompson at one time,
Doctor Robinson went off on your sabbatical and he said, well, you take
over. So I'm taking over and the dean calls me over and he said, well, you
can't do that. I said, oh, all right. So fine. So I go back but nothing
else happened. So I go ahead. I, I signed things and I was finding it.
Victor J Miller S A uh director.
I said, what does that mean? Self apoint.
So anyway, and it worked anyway, ultimately, the dean comes up with a
professor Soderbergh who is of unknown lineage, unknown qualifications to
be director of Agriculture for a while. And so he's in the position and
I'm sure he had some good qualities, but he knew nothing really about
agriculture and it was an embarrassment to have him around at times. And
uh and we didn't really know what was the CIA or wasn't he? I mean, we
were into that very realistically, we were puzzling and unable to find out
anything and why is he here? And what is his position? And what is he
supposed to do? And finally, we kind of had a revolution and it got into
the legislature. And finally the dean says, well, no, I really hadn't
meant to have him there permanently. We're going,
ultimately, he was ousted and we had a good one put in. We had and it was
always a little stretch. Well, if you, agriculture just might be abolished
and that would be the end of it. So, you're, uh, I had some traumatic
times with my little self. But, uh, do I go along with this and fight this
? I mean, let's face it. There's probably 70 people with their livelihood
is dependent. I'm taking you now, the professors and there's families and
these people are all depending on these jobs. And do I risk having them
all wiped out? And, uh, finally you get to the point? Well, yes, my pride
is such that I cannot go on this way. We need to do something and then no
matter what the repercussions are. And so we got into a lot of trouble,
but it seemed like just being a peaceful group. Actually, Agri did good
Ernie Parker who was our professor of poultry husbandry. At one time, he
would put on a chicken dinner for the faculty of Arizona State for a
dollar. And I mean, they put on and then we'd have hay rides out on the
farm and, uh, barbecues out there. And so we, we did more in activities
really than any other institution in the, on the campus. You mentioned
several times about the farm why don't you tell us for those of us that?
Now you listen to this tape later, where was the farm? Well, at that time
, the farm was a half section of land that's 320 acres, which is between
Elliott and Warner Rhodes. And it was on the east side of price. So it was
a half section of land there which when I came to Arizona State College,
the farm was just a couple blocks south of Broadway and they actually own
40 acres of land on each side of Mill Avenue. And uh then they had the
other land leased down to Southern Avenue. So they had quite a bit of land
under their control, but only owned 80 acres. And uh but they had already
acquired this half section and then they started developing that and uh so
they could get out of downtown Tempe, so to speak. And um we
horticulturalist were the least objectionable. So they got out the uh the
pigs and the cows and things like that for the chickens. And uh uh then
after everybody else had gotten their buildings and barns, why then
horticulture was to move? But by that time, oh, gosh, we've, we just don't
have money left. Well, because of my great foresight, they had to build
horticulture. I had designed what I wanted out there in the way of a
little classroom and a little laboratory and uh the greenhouse and the
lath house and uh, and uh, his and hers and two toilets, no one else had
designed in toilets on the farm. All the other buildings had no toilets.
So they had to build horticulture because it would be essential to have
toilets there. So, because of that great foresight, I didn't realize I had
that much foresight but it, uh, it came out that way. And when was that
built?
Well, I don't really know the exact date. It long about, uh
I would say long about 62 63 64 right in there. So they, we moved off and
uh
left to land here later. Do pre President Durham got Doctor Robinson and
drove him out to the Macy's Station along by Tricity Mall and their palm
trees and this and that and now this looks nice. I want the old farm look
better than it is. We'd already left it, but we, uh I organized some
landscaping and we planted a perimeter around there of uh trees primarily.
And so at least some of them are still living along Mill Avenue there
that some of the Canary Island Palms and some of the other palms. Why we
were told that we had to fix it up after we'd already left it. I don't
know, but we did the old, the farm that you moved to isn't there anymore.
It's the A su research park. But uh this is,
uh uh let's say one of the things we had done uh the University of Arizona
Citrus Station out here on South priest, uh they
Bob Hilgeman who was running that had been interested in date palms and he
had some med jewel date Palms out there along with citrus. And uh we had
gone out there with a class and taken offshoots as a class exercise and
planted out at our new farm. And uh those lived and uh ultimately were
producing and made jeweled and they're still out there now. They've been
transplanted a couple of times. And um that's how the arboretum got
started. Uh packaging dates and so on. It became a thing that they seem to
do every year.
Talk just a little bit about how agriculture has changed here on campus
and in general, in Arizona over the years, well, of course, from our
classes in fruits and vegetables and landscaping and environmental
horticulture, uh
uh the horticulturist that we had after I retired, they were moved into
the uh matinee department, which I, I'm not sure what it is now biology of
some kind, I guess. Um So and of course, no more production or that kind.
But uh my thought had been that in this area and this is where I started
a class in environmental horticulture and the lawns and greens that the
landscaping part of things was going to be more important than the fruits
and vegetables, certainly commercially.
And that has turned out to be the case of when 40 acres of cotton land
goes into houses, the value of horticulture increases greatly because you
have all the uh the uh nursery stock that's going to be purchased and
planted there and uh uh irrigation systems and uh fertilizers,
some of the pest control products. And so, in that sense, it's gone from
uh feel a culture of crops to uh lawns and gardens and uh golf courses and
parks. And so that's been the big change. Of course, the school of
agriculture. Now I've been business is business and, uh, rather than crops.
Um, you kind of a, you foresaw that, I guess with your home gardening
television show, you were really focusing on home gardening back 40 years
ago.
Um, what are you proudest of, from her years of a u,
well,
I guess I survived. Uh, but, uh, I don't know,
we,
uh, I guess the TV programs we did would be, uh, uh, a somewhat living
legacy and people remember what they saw, uh, way of reaching an, a lot
more people than just in the classroom. And, uh, at least I felt that way
. I, if I hadn't been a full professor, I couldn't have done that. I did
some research but, uh, uh, uh, when you're taking full time, uh, you don't
have a whole lot of time otherwise. And, uh, doing these programs, at
least I did reach a lot of people and, uh, I did things like, uh, I made a
couple of tapes for plant walks on the campus and put these in the, in the
uh Union building and put a tape recorder two in there that people could
take these tapes and, and the literature and go for a walk around the
campus and in those specified areas and learn something about the plants.
No su really has become, you mentioned the arboretum. The A su arboretum
is truly the whole camp. Did you have much to do with that? Uh More in
sympathy than anything else? Uh Joe Tyler is the one, he was one of my
students and he's the one that had always wanted to have an arboretum. And
after he sold his nursery business, he came to work here and uh he wrote
up the proposal to call it an arboretum which went through, I wrote a
letter supporting that and it, uh it kept getting approved up the line
until the president appointed a committee to study it and recommend to him
whether he should call it an arboretum or not. I was on that committee and
uh we checked with the places around the country, uh say what difference
it make, whether he calls it our breed or not. Well, you have to keep
records on the plants. You have to have it open for the public to see and
where they're going to park. Well, always a problem. But anyway, I, I was
somewhat involved but uh not doing too much work.
Um, what advice do you give to young people today that are starting off
and choosing careers? And, uh, I think they have to do something that they
can enjoy doing something that's a challenge to them. Something that they
can be happy doing. I can't see getting into anything where you're going
to be unhappy all through the day because you don't like the work you're
doing and whether it brings in less money, you still should be doing
something you like. And, uh, so as to what school, I don't know that it
matters much for most people. Which one they go to, whether it's a, if
you're a high,
high octane mathematicians, then that may enter in just which school you
go to and, but uh for the average person I think they could go to most any
and come out with the education they want and hopefully get a job they
would like.
Did you have anything on your notes that you wanted to bring up that I
didn't ask you about? No, I just, uh, no, it's, it's been an interesting,
uh,
an interesting ride here, ups and downs and, uh, but it's, uh, I've always
enjoyed it. I, I enjoyed the, the library. I used to take my classes up to
the spatial collections room and they'd bring out. I mean, most of my
students would never get to a place like that, but they'd bring out some
of the old books of the hand painted pictures and things in there and, uh
, the plants and this and that, and, you know, a little more culture you
might say than they get otherwise. But, I mean, people, that's the thing I
found about here, the people, like, they didn't go lean over backwards to
do whatever they could to help you in your class and get things for you.
So, that's what I, I've enjoyed that here. Did you ever think when you
came out to Arizona for that first job that you'd spend the rest of your
life out here? Well, after we'd been here two or three years, one of my
students had been from Green Acres mortuary and, uh, some fellow from
there came around selling cemetery lots and, uh, I said, well, maybe we
should buy lots. I mean, I think we're probably going to stay here. So we
had lots. So I guess that's an indication of how I felt about the place
early on. You thought that this was gonna be home? What you, you, it's a
lot different from coming from the Midwest. But what about that first
summer? Did that give you some doubts? Well,
I found that if I stepped out the door and stopped and took a deep breath
and braced myself and took off. It was like that first summer I thought we
should do. What do they grow here? I mean, what I mean? Uh, for landscape
plants, we went around um older areas of Tempe, newer areas of Tempe and
went into lots, uh just evaluate listed and evaluated every plant they had
there. And what location was it growing in? And uh so on. And so to get an
idea, just what are all the plants being used here in landscaping. And so
you, you spent the day out in the middle of the summer doing this, then
we'd stop and get us a root beer float.
And uh you figure you in agriculture, you're going to be out there no
matter what the temperature is.
I think that about covers my questions. Do you have anything man? I think
he's covered quite a bit of thing. Anything else you wanted to tell us?
Well,
I don't know of anything else. Very unusual. I, I'm just sorry. Some of
the fellows that used to tell me stories about some of the things that
happened back during World War Two here with their limited problems and
the things they did for jokes they played on Katie and things like that
that uh uh like the time they were going to get a mortuary college started
here. So they bring in students,
of course, no mortuary people knew about this. Only the people who are
playing a trick on Katie knew about this Vice President Katy or the time
they build up a I think it was Marlow Key telling about building a out of
scrap metal, a great contraption and they notified Katie, they were
sending this to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York because they
want to share art with the hinterlands here. So they had to help everybody
out for this great unveiling. There was this sculpture.
I mean, I guess we just didn't have fun like that in these later years.
But uh university grew from the small little college to a true big city
university. Yes. The two brick streets that crossed in the middle of the
campus disappeared. And now you just have to walk there. Is that progress
? Instead of driving, we have to walk, you know?