WEBVTT 00:00:01.159 --> 00:00:08.306 I'm Pam Stevenson and we're here today at Arizona State University uh on 00:00:08.339 --> 00:00:14.536 July the 12th of 2002. And we're doing a, an oral history interview for 00:00:14.569 --> 00:00:19.337 the Living History video project for the Arizona State University Retirees 00:00:19.370 --> 00:00:24.625 Association. And um I think what I'd like to do is let you give us your 00:00:24.658 --> 00:00:30.756 full name and tell us just in a few words, what you did at a su Thank you. 00:00:30.789 --> 00:00:37.076 My name is Dennis Keegan and I joined the faculty at what was in Arizona 00:00:37.109 --> 00:00:42.945 State College in August of 1958. And that was in the College of 00:00:42.978 --> 00:00:47.286 Engineering Division of Industrial Education at that time, which 00:00:47.319 --> 00:00:52.826 subsequently became Division of Technology. I stayed in that capacity 00:00:52.859 --> 00:00:55.536 until 1965 00:00:55.569 --> 00:00:59.146 when I went back to the University of Missouri and was on the faculty 00:00:59.179 --> 00:01:07.179 there from 65 to 67. In 1967 I joined Roy Rice over in summer sessions and 00:01:08.260 --> 00:01:13.766 what was then extension that subsequently became continuing education? And 00:01:13.799 --> 00:01:21.605 I stayed in that capacity until 1988 when I retired. OK. It's a very 00:01:21.638 --> 00:01:27.447 concise. We'll go back and get more details later. Um Why don't you, why 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:31.305 don't we back up just to start about and tell us, um, your little, your 00:01:31.338 --> 00:01:35.156 background of when you were born and where you were born. I have to give 00:01:35.189 --> 00:01:38.855 the date I was born. Usually 00:01:38.888 --> 00:01:46.477 I was born April 26 1923 in North Mankato, Minnesota. I say North Mankato 00:01:46.510 --> 00:01:52.495 because it's a county line between Blue Earth County and Nicolet County. 00:01:52.528 --> 00:01:59.495 Was that a rural, did you grow up on a farm or no? Grow up in the city? 00:01:59.528 --> 00:02:03.745 Um Well, tell me about uh your early years then. Uh where did you go to 00:02:03.778 --> 00:02:10.517 school? I attended school, high school and grade school in Mankato. 00:02:10.550 --> 00:02:14.066 Graduated from Loyola High School, which was a parochial high school in 00:02:14.099 --> 00:02:16.636 Mankato, 00:02:16.669 --> 00:02:21.755 attended Mankato State Teachers College at that time. Now it's Minnesota 00:02:21.788 --> 00:02:24.457 State University 00:02:24.490 --> 00:02:32.490 spent uh 19 enlisted in um Naval Air Corps in 1942 00:02:33.008 --> 00:02:38.136 was discharged in 1946. 00:02:38.169 --> 00:02:45.275 Then return to school in Mankato. Finished there, taught school at a high 00:02:45.308 --> 00:02:48.517 school in far. Minnesota. 00:02:48.550 --> 00:02:56.217 Went to graduate school at Stout State Institution in the nominee 00:02:56.250 --> 00:03:00.786 Wisconsin. From there, I attended the University of Missouri in a graduate 00:03:00.819 --> 00:03:07.177 program and from the University of Missouri, I came to 00:03:07.210 --> 00:03:10.636 um, well, tell me about when you, when you were a high school student, 00:03:10.669 --> 00:03:14.085 what did you think you were going to be when you grew up? I hadn't the 00:03:14.118 --> 00:03:16.916 slightest idea. 00:03:16.949 --> 00:03:22.055 I can be honest. Can I, I was more interested in playing football and 00:03:22.088 --> 00:03:29.297 basketball and that was helpful and sometimes detrimental because it may 00:03:29.330 --> 00:03:32.475 have detracted from some of the studies that I was supposed to be 00:03:32.508 --> 00:03:38.186 attending to. You said you went to teachers college. How did you decide to 00:03:38.219 --> 00:03:44.005 do that? It was convenient and it was reasonable. 00:03:44.038 --> 00:03:48.707 Did you want to be a teacher? I didn't think so, but I went to school and 00:03:48.740 --> 00:03:52.217 subsequently did become a teacher. 00:03:52.250 --> 00:03:55.666 You mentioned that you enlisted in the military. Why don't you tell us a 00:03:55.699 --> 00:03:59.146 little bit about where you served? And that was World War I, I World War 00:03:59.179 --> 00:04:04.585 II, I went through Navy flight school was commissioned in the Marine Corps. 00:04:04.618 --> 00:04:11.427 And after going through operational, I was fortunate to be an instructor 00:04:11.460 --> 00:04:15.786 in operational flying B 25. 00:04:15.819 --> 00:04:23.046 Where did you fly them out of mainly out of Cherry Point, North Carolina? 00:04:23.079 --> 00:04:27.536 I was not, 00:04:27.569 --> 00:04:31.317 that was an interesting period that I would like to talk to people that 00:04:31.350 --> 00:04:37.026 went through that. It was very interesting and it was interesting that I 00:04:37.059 --> 00:04:41.127 was assigned to become an instructor because we had very little choice as 00:04:41.160 --> 00:04:44.317 to where we were going to go. And they came out with papers one day and 00:04:44.350 --> 00:04:48.846 said, you're now an instructor. And I said, ok, 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:53.276 so you came back from the service and did you know then what you were 00:04:53.309 --> 00:04:59.026 going to do? Well, yes, there after the service, many of us had a little 00:04:59.059 --> 00:05:05.976 better idea of what values were and how we might use those values to our 00:05:06.009 --> 00:05:13.166 benefit and on the verge of getting married and a few of those things 00:05:13.199 --> 00:05:19.515 provided us a little better direction. A little, a little older and mature. 00:05:19.548 --> 00:05:26.046 And um the service did a lot for a lot of us because when they give you a 00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:30.395 multi million or multi $1000 airplane to fly, they're putting a lot of 00:05:30.428 --> 00:05:34.486 confidence in you too. 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:39.055 Um So tell me about what you did after you got back from the service, then 00:05:39.088 --> 00:05:43.986 I went right back to school. Then when I finished school, I then went to 00:05:44.019 --> 00:05:49.637 Far Minnesota and taught in the high school. At Fair. What did you IHT 00:05:49.670 --> 00:05:55.286 industrial education? What is that? Well, that's the practical side of uh 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:59.346 preparation for industry. 00:05:59.379 --> 00:06:03.745 Describe to me some of the things that you were teaching, I was teaching 00:06:03.778 --> 00:06:11.778 electricity, architectural drawing, cabinet making. And at the same time, 00:06:12.470 --> 00:06:15.745 I was an assistant coach. 00:06:15.778 --> 00:06:21.257 And how long were you there until 00:06:21.290 --> 00:06:24.526 19 00:06:24.559 --> 00:06:27.536 56? 00:06:27.569 --> 00:06:31.236 That's about right. Why did you leave? Then? I went to graduate school at 00:06:31.269 --> 00:06:36.007 the University of Missouri. What did you get? What degree did you get? I 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:40.226 received a doctorate at the University of Missouri 00:06:40.259 --> 00:06:45.575 in vocational technical education. Why did you wanna go and get that 00:06:45.608 --> 00:06:52.265 degree? It appeared to be the thing to do because there were opportunities 00:06:52.298 --> 00:06:57.176 for people with advanced degrees that were not available for people with. 00:06:57.209 --> 00:07:00.406 I was going to say lower degree. And that's not a fair statement at all. 00:07:00.439 --> 00:07:05.627 But for the beginning degrees, what sort of opportunities? Well, in 00:07:05.660 --> 00:07:10.265 colleges and universities in particular, I do not believe that I could 00:07:10.298 --> 00:07:15.596 have obtained a position here at a su without a doctorate. So how did you 00:07:15.629 --> 00:07:22.926 happen to come to a SU? It was announced in our department at the 00:07:22.959 --> 00:07:28.507 University of Missouri that there was a position open and made contact 00:07:28.540 --> 00:07:33.447 with Dean Thompson and Walter Burdett. Flew out, interviewed with them, 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:39.086 accepted a position and moved out here in August of that year 00:07:39.119 --> 00:07:44.796 is a good time to come to a, it was very interesting since we grew up in 00:07:44.829 --> 00:07:52.075 Minnesota. And at the time, we had a three week old baby traveling with us. 00:07:52.108 --> 00:07:56.676 What was your first impression? It was hot 00:07:56.709 --> 00:08:02.586 but it was a nice small town. I think Tempe probably had 15 or 16,000 00:08:02.619 --> 00:08:10.619 people. The university had approximately 707,500 students. Rural road 00:08:10.899 --> 00:08:17.317 south of Broadway was dirt and a number of those types of things were kind 00:08:17.350 --> 00:08:24.236 of impressive to us. We also found that there was um a stock feeding lot 00:08:24.269 --> 00:08:30.166 over on the north east corner of 00:08:30.199 --> 00:08:36.677 Broadway and rural. And that of course, through the next few years 00:08:36.710 --> 00:08:40.927 provided many opportunities and problems for the people of Tempe. Because 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:47.145 of the every time the cattle were fed, it provided uh dust and an odor 00:08:47.178 --> 00:08:50.746 that permeated throughout the city. 00:08:50.779 --> 00:08:53.746 That's a lot different from what it is the way it is today, that's a lot 00:08:53.779 --> 00:09:01.606 different. So, um, what, when you came to Arizona, then where did you tell 00:09:01.639 --> 00:09:06.657 me about how you settled in and what you did here? Well, of course, we had 00:09:06.690 --> 00:09:11.797 to adjust to swamp coolers because a few people had air conditioning, but 00:09:11.830 --> 00:09:18.047 it was mainly swamp coolers that we adjusted to and we felt comfortable 00:09:18.080 --> 00:09:21.895 with our Children because they could ride bicycles up and down the street 00:09:21.928 --> 00:09:27.826 and play after dark. I'm not certain that's true anymore. Another thing 00:09:27.859 --> 00:09:35.625 that was true then that coat and tie was the acceptable dress for teaching 00:09:35.658 --> 00:09:41.356 classes at a su and I don't believe that's any longer true. But then it 00:09:41.389 --> 00:09:48.899 was, and I think that was a very strong point in our meeting with students. 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:51.200 So even when it was 100 and something, you were wearing a coat and tie, 00:09:52.649 --> 00:09:59.226 you wore a coat and tie to class are the classrooms, air conditioned swamp 00:09:59.259 --> 00:10:01.726 coolers mainly. 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:05.936 And where, where on campus were you located? We were in the engineering 00:10:05.969 --> 00:10:12.927 complex which would be what's there? Now, I'm not certain what has 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:17.226 happened over there now, but it was just straight north of the swimming 00:10:17.259 --> 00:10:19.836 pool. 00:10:19.869 --> 00:10:23.706 That was the old swimming pool. 00:10:23.739 --> 00:10:28.996 Well, the swimming pool was then immediately east of Memorial Union and 00:10:29.029 --> 00:10:32.606 the old gym, 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:36.967 the old gym is partially still there and I'm not certain how much of it is 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:42.625 used at this point, but those were fun basketball games in the old gym 00:10:42.658 --> 00:10:50.566 when Ned Welk was coaching and we had full house every night. 00:10:50.599 --> 00:10:54.066 So, were you still into the sports then? At that time? Oh, yeah, I still 00:10:54.099 --> 00:11:01.606 am. I love them. And, uh, I think sports, uh, carries a lot of people. 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.625 Tell me about when you, when you came here. Um, you described a little bit 00:11:05.658 --> 00:11:10.547 but, um, what was your first, uh, teaching assignment? What did you teach 00:11:10.580 --> 00:11:14.547 and describe what it was like? 00:11:14.580 --> 00:11:20.537 I actually started teaching a class in printing in the department along 00:11:20.570 --> 00:11:28.570 with cabinet making and drafting. And students were very ambitious, very 00:11:29.548 --> 00:11:33.576 willing and it was very enjoyable, 00:11:33.609 --> 00:11:37.986 pretty diverse. Group of classes. Yes. But it all fits under vocational 00:11:38.019 --> 00:11:40.586 technical education 00:11:40.619 --> 00:11:48.619 and tell me, did you have an office or were you? Yes, we were north of the 00:11:49.009 --> 00:11:56.505 swimming pool on a walkway that led down toward 00:11:56.538 --> 00:12:01.427 north end of campus, I guess. 00:12:01.460 --> 00:12:06.537 Um, you mentioned there was like 7500 students at that time. That's an 00:12:06.570 --> 00:12:12.015 approximation. Yes. How big were the classes you were teaching? About 20 00:12:12.048 --> 00:12:17.446 to 24 individuals. 00:12:17.479 --> 00:12:21.775 What would someone do? What degree did they get when they graduated? They 00:12:21.808 --> 00:12:26.407 received a Bachelor of Stein's degree in industrial education. What could 00:12:26.440 --> 00:12:31.436 they do that they would go out and teach in high schools? 00:12:31.469 --> 00:12:37.476 So it was also kind of a teaching degree. Oh, yes. Mhm. 00:12:37.509 --> 00:12:43.246 Who was the president of when I came? It was Grady. G and one of the 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:50.015 saddest times of course, was on Friday the day before classes left out in 00:12:50.048 --> 00:12:58.048 1959 for Christmas vacation. That Grady Gamage died. Tell me about that. 00:12:58.548 --> 00:13:03.436 Well, it, it hit everybody because we were a small institution then. And 00:13:03.469 --> 00:13:10.696 , uh, it was, uh rather sudden and it affected almost everyone on campus 00:13:10.729 --> 00:13:18.125 because I felt at that time that our faculty and staff was a very close 00:13:18.158 --> 00:13:24.467 unit and we were able to talk with everyone. We knew most of the people on 00:13:24.500 --> 00:13:30.167 campus. And this affected us all just like it would a family. How did you 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:37.226 find out about it? It was um just almost immediate common knowledge. I 00:13:37.259 --> 00:13:42.696 can't say how the word came to us. 00:13:42.729 --> 00:13:49.956 Not that we knew, but it was just a very sudden death. 00:13:49.989 --> 00:13:53.467 So what happened then? How did you know, how did the school progress or 00:13:53.500 --> 00:13:55.755 that 00:13:55.788 --> 00:14:01.657 an institution of this nature kind of lands on its feet and progress from 00:14:01.690 --> 00:14:07.917 there? We went through a whole series of presidents at the time. I believe 00:14:07.950 --> 00:14:15.625 that Dr Richardson filled in as president for the remainder of that year 00:14:15.658 --> 00:14:18.486 until 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:24.196 Doctor Homer Durham was appointed president. 00:14:24.229 --> 00:14:28.037 How did they go about finding a new president in those days? And pretty 00:14:28.070 --> 00:14:32.875 much as they do now, the word is out through the various education 00:14:32.908 --> 00:14:38.836 associations and people make application at that time, they didn't have 00:14:38.869 --> 00:14:46.015 the what is called headhunters out on the prowl, but that's pretty common 00:14:46.048 --> 00:14:51.525 now. But at that time, I think people learned of the institution learned 00:14:51.558 --> 00:14:56.686 of the location of the institution. And of course, at that time, we were 00:14:56.719 --> 00:15:01.967 then a university and that made a big difference because people were 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:07.275 attracted both students, faculty and people coming into administrative 00:15:07.308 --> 00:15:13.956 positions. Because now Arizona State College became Arizona State 00:15:13.989 --> 00:15:20.787 University and that in itself provided the impetus for many people to 00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:22.875 apply. 00:15:22.908 --> 00:15:27.106 How was, how were things different when you had a new president? 00:15:27.139 --> 00:15:33.936 Well, being in a department of didn't affect us as directly as it would 00:15:33.969 --> 00:15:41.025 other administrators. But when Dr Durham came on board, he made it a point 00:15:41.058 --> 00:15:46.706 of coming out to various parts of the campus just to see what was going on. 00:15:46.739 --> 00:15:53.765 And it's my understanding that Dr Durham knew more people on campus by 00:15:53.798 --> 00:15:58.726 name than any other president that we ever had. 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:06.759 He would show up in the most unlikely places on campus in purchasing over 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:14.566 in maintenance, over in academic departments and classrooms. So he just 00:16:14.599 --> 00:16:20.336 kind of wandered around and was able to make that personal contact. Did 00:16:20.369 --> 00:16:27.875 you feel that you got to know him? Yes, I did. I was president of the what 00:16:27.908 --> 00:16:33.657 was called the faculty club in 1964 00:16:33.690 --> 00:16:39.515 and 65. And as a result did become acquainted with Doctor Durham and that 00:16:39.548 --> 00:16:44.537 was a very pleasant association. 00:16:44.570 --> 00:16:48.246 Tell me a little bit more about um your, you said you were a department 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:53.537 when you came. Yes. And who was the chairman of the department, Walter 00:16:53.570 --> 00:16:55.616 Burdett. 00:16:55.649 --> 00:17:00.057 And of that, we were in the College of Engineering and Dean Lee Thompson 00:17:00.090 --> 00:17:05.426 was uh dean of the college, 00:17:05.459 --> 00:17:12.107 make one more comment about the faculty club that was in effect at that 00:17:12.140 --> 00:17:20.140 time, it had two main activities. One was to host the new faculty at an 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:26.026 event which was to include a buffet and then the football game during the 00:17:26.059 --> 00:17:31.916 first football game each fall. And the second activity was in the mid year 00:17:31.949 --> 00:17:38.426 when uh Ernie Parker put on uh chicken dinner. And those were the two 00:17:38.459 --> 00:17:45.325 activities of the at that time called the faculty club. 00:17:45.358 --> 00:17:50.217 Ernie Parker was a professor of agriculture who was responsible for the 00:17:50.250 --> 00:17:58.250 ASU farm, which was located south of campus and south of Palm Croft Drive. 00:18:00.459 --> 00:18:02.459 That sounds a lot different than it is today. It, I don't think there's 00:18:05.338 --> 00:18:12.545 any remnants of a farm down there at all anymore. So we just kind of take 00:18:12.578 --> 00:18:17.387 it for granted that houses were built. 00:18:17.420 --> 00:18:21.496 Pam. May I ask you a question? Sure. Uh Dennis, uh I, I if you wouldn't 00:18:21.529 --> 00:18:24.617 mind answering to Pam, but I think it would be interesting to people to 00:18:24.650 --> 00:18:28.196 know the parameters of the campus at that time, you know, from, do you 00:18:28.229 --> 00:18:32.476 remember what street to what street? And so that we get a feel for what it 00:18:32.509 --> 00:18:37.347 was like then as compared to now, 00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:44.637 I think the parameters would be a patchy to what was then Eighth Street. 00:18:44.670 --> 00:18:47.347 It is now a university 00:18:47.380 --> 00:18:51.666 and 00:18:51.699 --> 00:18:56.496 trying to think of some of the streets now that were available. Then it 00:18:56.529 --> 00:19:04.529 was a pretty restricted campus in that respect. And I say this because the 00:19:04.719 --> 00:19:09.325 Tempe Center was there and that was one of the borders as far as the 00:19:09.358 --> 00:19:13.906 campus was concerned. And then the 00:19:13.939 --> 00:19:18.226 small school that was still on campus. 00:19:18.259 --> 00:19:22.486 But then on the west or on the east side, 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:30.256 it didn't extend too far east as we do now. And um, pardon Normal Avenue 00:19:30.289 --> 00:19:35.456 would have been one of the boundaries. Thanks John Normal Avenue is the 00:19:35.489 --> 00:19:42.946 north south and I'm not sure it's there anymore. No, I think it's gone. So 00:19:42.979 --> 00:19:48.647 , and of course, one of the first coming on campus, they said let's go 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:53.357 have coffee. So we went down to the huddle. Now, do you know the huddle at 00:19:53.390 --> 00:20:01.390 all? The huddle was located on the south east corner of Mill and what was 00:20:02.078 --> 00:20:05.956 then Eighth Street? And it is now a university. It's long gone. But that 00:20:05.989 --> 00:20:10.127 was kind of a nice place to go because people from campus were down there 00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:15.805 where they had pictures of the football, basketball track, etc I better 00:20:15.838 --> 00:20:19.085 not forget Bobby Winkles in baseball too because there are baseball 00:20:19.118 --> 00:20:24.637 pictures there too. 00:20:24.670 --> 00:20:29.976 Yes, that would be at the Tempe. Yes, it is. Exactly. And there have been 00:20:30.009 --> 00:20:34.276 a number of buildings in there since the huddle, but we all felt a little 00:20:34.309 --> 00:20:40.367 bad when the huddle left and I have no idea who ran it, but it's a prime 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:48.400 piece of property. So, 00:20:49.299 --> 00:20:54.147 talk a little bit more about how big your department was and, um, how many 00:20:54.180 --> 00:20:57.446 people were in it? How many, you know, teachers or professors, or were you 00:20:57.479 --> 00:21:01.545 considered a professor? Is that what they called you? Yes. Well, I began 00:21:01.578 --> 00:21:06.305 as an assistant professor. That's where you, that's the beginning level. 00:21:06.338 --> 00:21:10.916 But we had, um, 00:21:10.949 --> 00:21:15.575 I think six or seven faculty members in the department. I can make sure I 00:21:15.608 --> 00:21:19.976 can name them. All right. Now, that's been a few years ago. And how many 00:21:20.009 --> 00:21:24.325 courses, or how many classes did you teach? I taught four classes to begin 00:21:24.358 --> 00:21:30.256 with each semester. That was pretty good load. Then later on, um, I don't 00:21:30.289 --> 00:21:34.295 know how many years later we negotiated down to three classes and that was 00:21:34.328 --> 00:21:39.035 , um, a little more comfortable. 00:21:39.068 --> 00:21:46.176 Did you have semesters then, or what? Yes. Mhm. 00:21:46.209 --> 00:21:49.706 Well, talk about how your career progressed. You say you came here as a, 00:21:49.739 --> 00:21:52.746 an assistant professor? 00:21:52.779 --> 00:21:57.526 When did you move up or? How did you? 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:02.897 Well, I can't recall, uh, definitely when, but I was then promoted to 00:22:02.930 --> 00:22:08.647 associate professor and then by 19 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:15.156 65 to professor. And that's when I left and went to Missouri and then 00:22:15.189 --> 00:22:19.097 returned in 1967 00:22:19.130 --> 00:22:24.916 an opportunity back at the University of Missouri where they had a rather 00:22:24.949 --> 00:22:28.887 extensive program and that's where I had gone to school. So I thought it 00:22:28.920 --> 00:22:33.186 was a compliment to be invited back to be on the faculty at the University 00:22:33.219 --> 00:22:38.936 of Missouri. But you didn't stay very long. I stayed there two years and 00:22:38.969 --> 00:22:45.446 we miss Arizona and had an opportunity to work in another area on coming 00:22:45.479 --> 00:22:50.637 back to work with Roy Rice through summer sessions and extension. So we 00:22:50.670 --> 00:22:56.486 thought that was a good opportunity. Well, tell me about that. Which part 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:02.847 coming back, what was that new, the new opportunity was to move into 00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:08.766 administration as compared with teaching. Although the first two years I 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:15.065 was back, I also taught a class every semester and then working with Roy 00:23:15.098 --> 00:23:20.456 Rice and some of those people was a real opportunity because we were doing 00:23:20.489 --> 00:23:26.575 such diverse things as developing programs all over the valley along with 00:23:26.608 --> 00:23:31.986 an extensive summer session program. Why was the university getting into 00:23:32.019 --> 00:23:37.266 that diversifying out into the community? We thought that was our 00:23:37.299 --> 00:23:42.656 responsibility to provide services, graduate classes in particular for 00:23:42.689 --> 00:23:50.186 teachers all over the valley. We had an interesting experience later on 00:23:50.219 --> 00:23:56.887 when we were developing programs in that, we developed a center at Metro 00:23:56.920 --> 00:24:02.156 Center and that was through the good graces of Rusty Lyons who was then 00:24:02.189 --> 00:24:08.217 president of West. We went out and negotiated with him about setting up 00:24:08.250 --> 00:24:14.156 programs out there. And he said, well, come down and look at some square 00:24:14.189 --> 00:24:17.867 footage that we have in the basement. We went down, looked at it, drew it 00:24:17.900 --> 00:24:23.627 up, put classes there. I think we had eight classrooms down in Metro 00:24:23.660 --> 00:24:30.805 Center and that stayed that way until some further development in the West 00:24:30.838 --> 00:24:33.377 Side program. 00:24:33.410 --> 00:24:37.526 So, what kind of classes did you offer in continuing it? Oh, we offered a 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:44.916 very wide variety, uh, education classes, liberal arts classes. And uh any 00:24:44.949 --> 00:24:52.416 type that uh we thought would attract people all through the valley. 00:24:52.449 --> 00:24:58.815 Your role in that? we were the administrators of that identified places to 00:24:58.848 --> 00:25:03.607 put classes and we had many classes in some of the high schools and 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:09.176 elementary schools throughout the valley and we would negotiate with the 00:25:09.209 --> 00:25:13.585 high school administrators, the elementary school administrators set up 00:25:13.618 --> 00:25:20.516 contracts, how much rent we would pay and go from there. 00:25:20.549 --> 00:25:24.946 Um Tell me, you know, in all of your years here at a su is there anything 00:25:24.979 --> 00:25:29.217 that stands out in your, your memory of um being a particularly 00:25:29.250 --> 00:25:33.897 interesting or memorable event? Well, I think uh one of the highlights was 00:25:33.930 --> 00:25:38.406 the opening of a G auditorium, of course, which uh was Philadelphia 00:25:38.439 --> 00:25:42.446 Symphony came in played. They came back for the 25th anniversary too, 00:25:42.479 --> 00:25:49.387 which I thought was very nice. And then our athletic program was taking 00:25:49.420 --> 00:25:56.585 off then with Frank Kush as head coach and ned WK as head coach of 00:25:56.618 --> 00:26:03.305 basketball, Baldy Castillo track Bobby Winkles in baseball. And those were 00:26:03.338 --> 00:26:11.045 very exciting times in just as a spectator and as a friend which I hope 00:26:11.078 --> 00:26:15.246 was a friend to the coaches because being a smaller institution at the 00:26:15.279 --> 00:26:19.996 time, we were able to become well acquainted with some of them. In fact, 00:26:20.029 --> 00:26:24.617 our oldest daughter baby sat for Bobby Winkle's Children when they won the 00:26:24.650 --> 00:26:29.706 first college World Series. 00:26:29.739 --> 00:26:34.847 Yeah, it was more of a small community. Yes, it was. You mentioned about 00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:38.597 auditorium. Um, what was that? That's such a landmark. It, people feel 00:26:38.630 --> 00:26:41.176 like it's been there forever. But what was that like when that was built? 00:26:41.209 --> 00:26:46.575 What was on that corner before there was uh some 00:26:46.608 --> 00:26:52.186 housing there which was used during the war and then faculty and some 00:26:52.219 --> 00:26:57.847 staff moved in there after the war and it was on that curved corner. But 00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:03.516 all of those had to be removed, I think um Bill Kajikawa lived down there 00:27:03.549 --> 00:27:05.847 for a while. 00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:12.166 George Morrell on a Frio, Billy Quinn. 00:27:12.199 --> 00:27:20.199 Excuse me? It was also an archery. Oh, yes. Very close to that. Mhm. Right. 00:27:21.959 --> 00:27:25.406 How long did it take to build damage? Was that a big project going on? It 00:27:25.439 --> 00:27:30.456 was a huge project. And then how long it took? I can't recall, we were 00:27:30.489 --> 00:27:37.597 just very interested in this progress. 00:27:37.630 --> 00:27:42.637 What about your, your own career? Do you have any um Do you remember the, 00:27:42.670 --> 00:27:48.006 the, the one of the best part of your career? I think the best part of my 00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:53.986 career was being hired at Arizona State College because um from there on 00:27:54.019 --> 00:27:58.637 then, uh we worked everything out and then the other highlight would be 00:27:58.670 --> 00:28:04.006 rehired in, uh, 1967. 00:28:04.039 --> 00:28:09.406 Uh, was there some doubt that they would want you back if there was, they 00:28:09.439 --> 00:28:13.906 didn't make me aware of it and I think that was kind on their part. So if 00:28:13.939 --> 00:28:17.276 there were people that didn't want me back, they didn't come to the 00:28:17.309 --> 00:28:19.746 surface. 00:28:19.779 --> 00:28:24.516 What about any, um, you know, negative experiences? Is there any difficult 00:28:24.549 --> 00:28:30.436 time? Oh, I'd rather not go into those because those uh shouldn't remain 00:28:30.469 --> 00:28:35.085 buried, I think. But I would give you a couple of things that uh I thought 00:28:35.118 --> 00:28:42.026 were highlights. We held commencement at um the stadium and in the early 00:28:42.059 --> 00:28:46.325 couple years that commencement was held up in the stadium, the north end 00:28:46.358 --> 00:28:51.676 was open and that was a field day for mosquitoes. 00:28:51.709 --> 00:28:56.535 We came out of there and um that was in the early sixties in particular 00:28:56.568 --> 00:29:02.127 that uh that occurred. But I can remember um 00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:05.565 Gilbert Katy saying, man, I'm glad that's over because I was getting 00:29:05.598 --> 00:29:09.147 bitten alive by mosquitoes. 00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:14.045 And that was, the river was dry at that time, wasn't it? Yes. But uh if we 00:29:14.078 --> 00:29:18.545 had a rain, there would be some water in it. But uh the river was usually 00:29:18.578 --> 00:29:21.256 dry. 00:29:21.289 --> 00:29:26.196 So wherever did the mosquitoes come from then right out of the river, they 00:29:26.229 --> 00:29:34.229 had little pockets of moisture down there that they would come out of. 00:29:35.449 --> 00:29:41.285 Can I make a suggestion? Dennis? Uh I'd like for you to really uh 00:29:41.318 --> 00:29:46.377 elaborate on your summer sessions. That's when I really got to know you 00:29:46.410 --> 00:29:51.916 was when you were in summer, uh had a summer sessions. 00:29:51.949 --> 00:29:58.236 So that evolved into really quite a, I thought a very big part of the 00:29:58.269 --> 00:30:05.266 whole academic um part, you know, part of a, of a su so, yes, we did some 00:30:05.299 --> 00:30:09.835 things in summer sessions that attracted people because by that time our 00:30:09.868 --> 00:30:13.996 classrooms were air conditioned and we were able to attract people here 00:30:14.029 --> 00:30:17.946 from all over the country because some of them would want to come from for 00:30:17.979 --> 00:30:24.206 a quasi vacation and others would be coming from around the state to 00:30:24.239 --> 00:30:29.627 participate primarily in a graduate program. And from a very small 00:30:29.660 --> 00:30:33.877 beginning in summer sessions, we worked up to 25,000 students in the 00:30:33.910 --> 00:30:40.717 summer and that's for two sessions. And we also ran some programs at 00:30:40.750 --> 00:30:45.176 Gamage Auditorium in the summer which people said would never work. But 00:30:45.209 --> 00:30:50.196 they did because people were looking for entertainment in the summer. We 00:30:50.229 --> 00:30:54.776 had the preservation hall, jazz band from New Orleans here every summer 00:30:54.809 --> 00:31:01.246 because they were such a draw on the people around 00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:07.016 and we did provide good services for people in the summers. It also 00:31:07.049 --> 00:31:11.226 provided an excellent opportunity for faculty to teach at least one 00:31:11.259 --> 00:31:15.597 session in the summer because they were paid extra for the teaching in the 00:31:15.630 --> 00:31:17.946 summer. 00:31:17.979 --> 00:31:21.285 You remember any particular classes that you started in the summer that 00:31:21.318 --> 00:31:26.097 maybe weren't available other times? No I can't come up with one at this 00:31:26.130 --> 00:31:30.006 time, but that's an interesting question. It would be fun to check back 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:36.686 and see what started. But I can't. We had a number of high school students 00:31:36.719 --> 00:31:41.075 that would come over, graduate from high school, come over and start their 00:31:41.108 --> 00:31:46.166 university experience in the summer because classes were smaller and it 00:31:46.199 --> 00:31:50.397 was an excellent transition for them. So that when the classes started in 00:31:50.430 --> 00:31:55.545 the fall, they were already acquainted with the facilities, the campus and 00:31:55.578 --> 00:32:01.598 recognizing that there would be a lot more students on campus in the fall. 00:32:02.259 --> 00:32:04.259 And do you want to ask another question? Sure. 00:32:05.809 --> 00:32:11.726 One of my memorable experiences of 1961 was registration. 00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:16.545 Would you talk a little bit about how that took place? Registration at 00:32:16.578 --> 00:32:24.426 that particular period was a difficult and um frustrating experience 00:32:24.459 --> 00:32:31.867 because people would line up to get classes and class cards and then to 00:32:31.900 --> 00:32:36.305 try to get everybody into a position to get those. And that's why in 00:32:36.338 --> 00:32:41.996 particular for summer sessions, we started telephone registration and were 00:32:42.029 --> 00:32:47.976 able to bring people in without standing in those long lines. And that was 00:32:48.009 --> 00:32:54.315 a real benefit to the students because standing in line out in the heat 00:32:54.348 --> 00:33:00.936 discouraged many people, but where they could then telephone register and 00:33:00.969 --> 00:33:06.035 then eventually online register as they do. Now, that was a real benefit. 00:33:06.068 --> 00:33:10.916 And the registrar's office was extremely cooper with us in that 00:33:10.949 --> 00:33:15.825 particular respect. So how long was it that they did the old, the old 00:33:15.858 --> 00:33:20.176 style registration. And when did you change? I can't give you a date on it 00:33:20.209 --> 00:33:25.637 because uh even for fall registration, we used to set up in the old gym 00:33:25.670 --> 00:33:31.666 and uh we'd have these cards for each class and when we ran out of cards, 00:33:31.699 --> 00:33:37.166 of course, the class was closed. And uh but there was an advantage in 00:33:37.199 --> 00:33:43.416 having that registration in the old gym in that we met and became 00:33:43.449 --> 00:33:49.416 acquainted with faculty from every department on campus. And that to me 00:33:49.449 --> 00:33:54.666 was a real advantage. I had some very close friends as a result of that, 00:33:54.699 --> 00:33:57.436 describe for me how that worked, the faculty actually had to be there at 00:33:57.469 --> 00:34:04.637 the table and hand out. Yes, we all set up at a table similar to one here 00:34:04.670 --> 00:34:10.686 and had boxes of these cards which identified each class. And then when a 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:14.896 person signed up, they would get a card which would allow them in and they 00:34:14.929 --> 00:34:19.066 would be recorded that they were then a bona fide member of that class. 00:34:19.099 --> 00:34:24.686 And then they would go from there with all of these to pay their fees, 00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:31.296 had to do it. Oh, yes, we were all required to be there and to distribute 00:34:31.329 --> 00:34:35.077 the cards. Of course, that also gave us an opportunity to meet incoming 00:34:35.110 --> 00:34:41.166 students. So there were some good parts to that as well as the frustration 00:34:41.199 --> 00:34:48.477 level that occurred with many of many of our faculty and students. 00:34:48.510 --> 00:34:53.646 So one thing I'd like to get on tape if you would is, you know, the 00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:57.126 setting. In other words, when I registered the first time we actually had 00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:02.006 it, I thought it was at, uh, the stadium because we were outside, uh, 00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:06.936 maybe the line was outside and then we come into the, into the gym. But if 00:35:06.969 --> 00:35:12.456 you could describe a little bit about how, how that was just the logistics. 00:35:12.489 --> 00:35:18.236 Yes, that was that Orange Avenue, right? The lines would extend out on 00:35:18.269 --> 00:35:24.787 Orange Avenue in order to get into the old gym so that the old gym wasn't 00:35:24.820 --> 00:35:28.467 so crowded that you couldn't move around. Yes, up and down the street 00:35:28.500 --> 00:35:30.497 there. 00:35:30.530 --> 00:35:35.436 Rather interesting. See those streets were all open then see College 00:35:35.469 --> 00:35:40.845 Avenue was a through street all the way through the campus and of course, 00:35:40.878 --> 00:35:47.135 that class change time and people trying to drive through there total 00:35:47.168 --> 00:35:52.666 chaos, but kind of fun too. People seem to take it as a matter of course 00:35:52.699 --> 00:35:57.787 and meet their friends there because the Union itself was a focal point 00:35:57.820 --> 00:36:03.916 for much of the social activity for our students. And the old library was 00:36:03.949 --> 00:36:11.949 then just down the street and uh many people focused on that. What time of 00:36:12.708 --> 00:36:18.267 year was that registration? Well, it would be late August 00:36:18.300 --> 00:36:25.816 and hot. So, and uh the old gym of course, didn't have adequate uh, 00:36:25.849 --> 00:36:27.827 refrigeration 00:36:27.860 --> 00:36:30.566 still doesn't. 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:36.365 But those were interesting times because we kind of worked our way through 00:36:36.398 --> 00:36:43.106 it as a team rather than as individuals. And as I said, made good friends 00:36:43.139 --> 00:36:48.296 by that type of registration. Well, it sounds like the professors are much 00:36:48.329 --> 00:36:53.736 more kind of hands on involved in it too. I think you're right. 00:36:53.769 --> 00:36:59.595 And which is not all bad, 00:36:59.628 --> 00:37:03.486 describe some of the more memorable people that you remember from your day 00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:08.396 to day issue. Well, I guess I could start with um Doctor Gamage. It was 00:37:08.429 --> 00:37:13.836 all, it was a pleasure to have his acquaintance. And of course, the Lee 00:37:13.869 --> 00:37:20.195 Thompson, tell me about what was he like? He was kind of a private person 00:37:20.228 --> 00:37:25.256 , but at the same time, he was always on campus. His favorite walk was the 00:37:25.289 --> 00:37:32.066 palm walk up that leads north and south on campus and still there. And of 00:37:32.099 --> 00:37:37.017 course, he lived in the house at that time right there on campus and a 00:37:37.050 --> 00:37:43.570 very nice person. Of course, Mrs Gamage was the ultimate in graciousness. 00:37:43.659 --> 00:37:45.659 But uh we saw him at many faculty occasions and he was at all of them, 00:37:51.349 --> 00:37:58.686 most of the presidents were, and that was always beneficial too. 00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:01.885 That was different than it is today though, for the family to actually 00:38:01.918 --> 00:38:06.626 live right there. Oh, yes. I'm not certain. I don't quite know where the 00:38:06.659 --> 00:38:10.807 president lives. I think it's in South Phoenix someplace. But now Doctor 00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:16.655 Crow coming in, I have no idea where he's going to live. But, um, some of 00:38:16.688 --> 00:38:21.916 the people lived at the place on uh South College. Uh Doctor New Burton 00:38:21.949 --> 00:38:27.717 lived there and I think Dr Durham lived there before they moved out to 00:38:27.750 --> 00:38:30.077 Scottsdale. 00:38:30.110 --> 00:38:34.287 But it is no longer used as the president's home. That was kind of nice 00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:41.026 because they had a faculty wives reception at the President's home every 00:38:41.059 --> 00:38:46.425 fall. And all of the ladies looked forward to going to that because then 00:38:46.458 --> 00:38:53.787 they met new faculty and renewed old acquaintances. 00:38:53.820 --> 00:38:59.396 Well, I felt it was, yes, because as I indicated, we were able to become 00:38:59.429 --> 00:39:05.336 acquainted with others. Just as an example I mentioned Frank Kush got to 00:39:05.369 --> 00:39:11.316 know Frank, got to know Ned Baldy Bobby Winkles. And that was always 00:39:11.349 --> 00:39:16.635 pleasant too because their offices were right over near the old gym. They 00:39:16.668 --> 00:39:21.635 weren't isolated as they are today and they would show up for coffee then 00:39:21.668 --> 00:39:29.236 at the union after the huddle uh huddle demise, 00:39:29.269 --> 00:39:32.247 tell me about some of the other people you started to mention someone else. 00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:38.135 Well, it was Lee Thompson who and then George Beakley and a number of 00:39:38.168 --> 00:39:42.526 those people from the College of Engineering and then people over in 00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:50.486 business was Lee was the Dean of College of Engineering. And I think his 00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:56.236 origins are Texas. He was also interested in cattle raising somewhere 00:39:56.269 --> 00:40:02.017 around the valley, but a very interesting person and the college, how big 00:40:02.050 --> 00:40:08.896 was it at that time? When you, I can't guess, I don't know, 00:40:08.929 --> 00:40:13.706 what was he like? You know, he was a Texan, but he was very uh very 00:40:13.739 --> 00:40:18.356 accommodating, very uh nice to work with. He and uh the chairman of our 00:40:18.389 --> 00:40:22.717 department, Walter Burdett had a very good working relationship so that uh 00:40:22.750 --> 00:40:29.827 affected all of us. But uh we then became acquainted with most of the 00:40:29.860 --> 00:40:36.236 people in the College of Engineering like Charlie Hoyt, George Beakley. Um 00:40:36.269 --> 00:40:40.006 I can't remember all their names now. Well, describe some of them for me 00:40:40.039 --> 00:40:45.477 who, who were they? Well, they were uh people in uh various uh departments 00:40:45.510 --> 00:40:51.006 like civil engineering, electrical engineering and a number of those 00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:55.396 programs. And I can't recall all of their names at this point. So I'm 00:40:55.429 --> 00:41:01.836 sorry. Yeah, I was just doing some research about Benny Gonzalez in the co 00:41:01.869 --> 00:41:05.577 the College of Architecture. It started with industrial, it started from 00:41:05.610 --> 00:41:09.057 an industrial design school. Was that under engineering? Yes, it was in 00:41:09.090 --> 00:41:13.646 the beginning. Tell me about how that sort of, well, that was an 00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:19.546 interesting involvement. It was uh kind of continuing and then all of a 00:41:19.579 --> 00:41:27.166 sudden it emerged as a college and um trying to quick think of the early 00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:31.796 dean June. Can you help me with the early dean of end of architecture who 00:41:31.829 --> 00:41:36.316 was involved in the Rio Salado project? 00:41:36.349 --> 00:41:42.736 Jim Jim Elmore was involved and Jim was a very interesting and ambitious 00:41:42.769 --> 00:41:45.247 person. 00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:51.537 Well, he was always looking forward and involving his students in projects 00:41:51.570 --> 00:41:56.425 and the students that he involved were primarily responsible for the Rio 00:41:56.458 --> 00:42:02.506 Sola project. And Jim kind of got them going, got their wheels turning and 00:42:02.539 --> 00:42:07.566 then kind of left them going and then pulled it all together. But Jim was 00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:12.767 a real nice person. Yeah. And that was industrial arts. You said you 00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:16.836 taught some architectural drawing. Well, I didn't hear I did that in high 00:42:16.869 --> 00:42:19.155 school. 00:42:19.188 --> 00:42:25.336 So, so you didn't work directly in that area then? No, I did not. No, the 00:42:25.369 --> 00:42:30.827 uh college of Architecture was on the second floor of the College of 00:42:30.860 --> 00:42:36.396 Engineering when it started and then they subsequently moved to the west 00:42:36.429 --> 00:42:41.477 side of campus. 00:42:41.510 --> 00:42:49.510 I think uh Carl Dannen Feld was Dean of Liberal Arts when uh we came in 58 00:42:50.050 --> 00:42:56.077 and Chuck Wolf was subsequently deaned. There was somebody in between, 00:42:56.110 --> 00:43:01.517 I can't remember all of them. Now this goes back and uh I was wondering if 00:43:01.550 --> 00:43:05.126 you'd like to comment on some of the other presidents that you served 00:43:05.159 --> 00:43:09.925 under besides Durham. And 00:43:09.958 --> 00:43:15.206 yeah, one of the people that um 00:43:15.239 --> 00:43:21.896 well, how will I put? I'm trying to think now with the number of them, I 00:43:21.929 --> 00:43:29.929 had some listed here. But what did I do with it? You know how that goes, 00:43:32.128 --> 00:43:40.128 Harry New Bern served in an interim capacity and Harry was a very strong 00:43:40.478 --> 00:43:46.095 administrator. He had been president of two or three universities prior to 00:43:46.128 --> 00:43:52.845 coming here to head up a higher education division. And in the interim 00:43:52.878 --> 00:43:57.557 between 00:43:57.590 --> 00:44:02.046 Durham and 00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:07.635 Harry Newbern filled in for two years and I always, always impressed with 00:44:07.668 --> 00:44:12.546 him because we would go to Dean's Council. And one of the first ones, 00:44:12.579 --> 00:44:17.796 Harry sat up there and said, no, I want all your opinions and I want them 00:44:17.829 --> 00:44:21.017 just straightforward. 00:44:21.050 --> 00:44:27.336 But then he said, you have to remember that I'll make the final decision 00:44:27.369 --> 00:44:34.626 and, and he did very effectively. So he was fun. So why didn't he stay? 00:44:34.659 --> 00:44:38.747 Well, it was just, he had served in that capacity and he was a little 00:44:38.780 --> 00:44:45.546 older and he agreed to serve just two years and very effectively. 00:44:45.579 --> 00:44:52.456 Ok. So then who can you uh Doctor Wada? And when I was at Missouri, I knew 00:44:52.489 --> 00:44:56.717 who Doctor Schwa was because he came from Missouri to here and then came 00:44:56.750 --> 00:45:00.175 in and served in that capacity. 00:45:00.208 --> 00:45:05.267 Well, he was a different administrator than 00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:11.997 Harry New Bern or G Homer Durham was, he relied on committees and this 00:45:12.030 --> 00:45:18.026 type of thing to run the administration. He wasn't as close to people as 00:45:18.059 --> 00:45:22.477 other presidents were, but at the same time, a very effective 00:45:22.510 --> 00:45:28.026 administrator, 00:45:28.059 --> 00:45:34.675 then it would be Dr Nelson. I believe that came in after him. And 00:45:34.708 --> 00:45:39.787 he was again, each president had a different personality, different method 00:45:39.820 --> 00:45:46.106 of administering the university all effective in their own way. So it was 00:45:46.139 --> 00:45:49.436 kind of interesting to all of us. 00:45:49.469 --> 00:45:56.686 Well, he was more aloof than some of the others. Harry New Bern was a 00:45:56.719 --> 00:46:03.537 grass roots and Dr Nelson was more aloof and maybe an academic of that 00:46:03.570 --> 00:46:11.256 nature. But he was effective in his own way too. How does the president of 00:46:11.289 --> 00:46:18.865 a university affect the, the campus and, and the very, very positively and 00:46:18.898 --> 00:46:24.195 directly because they are dealing with the legislature, the budget and 00:46:24.228 --> 00:46:28.276 they're also dealing with all of the deans and vice presidents on campus. 00:46:28.309 --> 00:46:33.497 So they have a positive and direct influence on the activities of the 00:46:33.530 --> 00:46:35.717 university. 00:46:35.750 --> 00:46:39.747 Do you? As, as a professor actually, is it different with different 00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:42.006 presidents 00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:47.146 in a way? Yes, because you have a different feel for what is involved. As 00:46:47.179 --> 00:46:52.267 I indicated, Dr Durham was probably the most visible on campus because he 00:46:52.300 --> 00:46:59.977 would get around to all types of areas 00:47:00.010 --> 00:47:03.106 of all of your accomplishments and things that you've done here. What, 00:47:03.139 --> 00:47:07.706 which ones do you look back on with the most satisfaction? I guess the 00:47:07.739 --> 00:47:14.287 success we had in summer sessions because that was a positive growth and 00:47:14.320 --> 00:47:17.986 uh worked all away from there. Was that something brand new that you 00:47:18.019 --> 00:47:23.845 started? No, no, that was started back in probably 1932. 00:47:23.878 --> 00:47:29.247 There are some materials that we put together that the classes were 00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:33.635 offered in the summer sessions and primarily on the shady side of the 00:47:33.668 --> 00:47:39.416 building because there was no air conditioning, but the students came and 00:47:39.449 --> 00:47:43.997 we have somewhere, there are statistics indicating the number of students 00:47:44.030 --> 00:47:52.030 in the first session and then running through to 19 41 00:47:52.550 --> 00:47:57.026 when uh the enrollment just dropped off like a rock and then didn't pick 00:47:57.059 --> 00:48:00.626 up again until 1946. 00:48:00.659 --> 00:48:05.086 Well, it seems like a lot of things in, in Arizona, Phoenix people closed 00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:10.916 down for the summer and left town. So that was traditional and a lot of 00:48:10.949 --> 00:48:16.646 families just left. But with the advent of air conditioning and the advent 00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:22.787 of more activities in the valley in the summer, more people have stayed. 00:48:22.820 --> 00:48:27.095 So does that impact the decision to really increase the summer session? 00:48:27.128 --> 00:48:31.086 Definitely, of course, air conditioning made all the difference in the 00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:37.195 world to our classrooms and to students coming in from the east or 00:48:37.228 --> 00:48:41.146 wherever they were coming from. 00:48:41.179 --> 00:48:45.256 Describe for me just in, you know, some of the things about a su that how 00:48:45.289 --> 00:48:48.307 it changed from the time when you first arrived in the fifties until you 00:48:48.340 --> 00:48:52.747 know, your retirement or today, I suppose one of the biggest changes 00:48:52.780 --> 00:48:57.276 occurred right after the university became a university. When that 00:48:57.309 --> 00:49:04.506 designation hit, then our enrollment just exploded. It also affected the 00:49:04.539 --> 00:49:09.467 population in Tempe and the surrounding area because we are now a 00:49:09.500 --> 00:49:15.217 university. We have programs, we need service units around the school and 00:49:15.250 --> 00:49:21.217 these are the things we need to expand on. And then after I guess we hit 00:49:21.250 --> 00:49:27.046 about 25,000 in the summer that kind of leveled off because classrooms and 00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:32.425 all were approximately full. Then. 00:49:32.458 --> 00:49:36.666 What about the construction of new buildings and things on campus? Have 00:49:36.699 --> 00:49:42.537 you seen that? I have watched it from a distance. Now, there are some 00:49:42.570 --> 00:49:49.497 great buildings on campus now and I think it will continue to grow. There 00:49:49.530 --> 00:49:57.530 was some early in the 60 s, there was some indication that the university 00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:04.365 would buy the property south of Apache Boulevard to the railroad track 00:50:04.398 --> 00:50:09.017 that didn't occur. But uh there was a proposal to do that and of course, 00:50:09.050 --> 00:50:12.736 you could see what might have happened to have that occurred. But then 00:50:12.769 --> 00:50:19.006 going different directions, acquiring Tempe Center and acquiring all of 00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:27.039 the property, then to the east of Normal now to rough road and then north 00:50:27.918 --> 00:50:34.217 to the river, there's a lot of property there and some development. 00:50:34.250 --> 00:50:38.037 They're building new buildings that I don't even know the designation of 00:50:38.070 --> 00:50:41.236 at the present time 00:50:41.269 --> 00:50:45.217 construction. But the frightening part of it is nobody asks me anymore 00:50:45.250 --> 00:50:48.936 whether I think it's a good idea or not. 00:50:48.969 --> 00:50:53.945 Did they use? No, 00:50:53.978 --> 00:50:58.816 uh what advice do you have for, for young people today who are just 00:50:58.849 --> 00:51:04.026 starting either choosing their college or choosing a career? 00:51:04.059 --> 00:51:07.095 That's a tough question because I have grandchildren coming up that I'd 00:51:07.128 --> 00:51:11.217 like to give some advice to. And I'm not sure they'll take it either, but 00:51:11.250 --> 00:51:17.155 it's a matter of applying yourself. And I know a number of us right out of 00:51:17.188 --> 00:51:22.416 high school didn't apply ourselves immediately. And it took a war to make 00:51:22.449 --> 00:51:27.316 us realize some of the values of education. And there are tremendous 00:51:27.349 --> 00:51:35.349 values of pursuing a degree. And I think I have a feeling for some of the 00:51:35.478 --> 00:51:42.365 students out of a small high school and I'll utilize aho as an example, a 00:51:42.398 --> 00:51:49.166 student graduating from a high school coming on campus at ASU has to feel 00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:55.905 a little lost. And I think there the opportunity to get involved with some 00:51:55.938 --> 00:52:02.486 group such as the band, such as the orchestra or any of those activities 00:52:02.519 --> 00:52:07.945 where a person would feel a part of something and in that way they can 00:52:07.978 --> 00:52:14.827 grow and as a result, feel a lot more at home. And then that would also 00:52:14.860 --> 00:52:21.037 imply over into their education where now they have kind of a quasi home 00:52:21.070 --> 00:52:26.626 in a band or orchestra or one of these or the athletics and then apply 00:52:26.659 --> 00:52:29.445 themselves in the classroom. 00:52:29.478 --> 00:52:34.557 What about choosing a career or a major? 00:52:34.590 --> 00:52:40.925 A lot of people slide into a career as opposed to choosing one? I think a 00:52:40.958 --> 00:52:46.666 number of us would be examples of that. But I think choosing a career too 00:52:46.699 --> 00:52:53.945 early is detrimental because you might overlook some very interesting and 00:52:53.978 --> 00:52:59.175 productive disciplines that you might otherwise avoid. Now, there are many 00:52:59.208 --> 00:53:02.666 people whose fathers are doctors and they want to go to medical school. 00:53:02.699 --> 00:53:08.195 This is understandable, but not everyone has that kind of impetus. But I 00:53:08.228 --> 00:53:14.635 think that exploration the first two years of college or university work 00:53:14.668 --> 00:53:18.856 is rather important. What's the most important thing do you think about 00:53:18.889 --> 00:53:23.997 when you finally do choose a career to then uh concentrate on it and go 00:53:24.030 --> 00:53:29.767 for it because, uh, it, uh, is what you're going to be living with the 00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:32.456 rest of your life. 00:53:32.489 --> 00:53:35.905 You mentioned, you know, students from, aho. And, and how have you seen 00:53:35.938 --> 00:53:41.026 the, the diversity of students change on the campus? 00:53:41.059 --> 00:53:46.206 Well, that's a tough question because you see students on campus and 00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:51.467 there's no way to know where they're from or what their background is and 00:53:51.500 --> 00:53:55.526 you go out on the mall and find out there's a lot of students there. They 00:53:55.559 --> 00:54:00.865 all look alike with the exception. Some are prettier than others. It's the 00:54:00.898 --> 00:54:07.526 boys that are pretty boy. Could I get in trouble with that one? 00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:12.206 It seems like, you know, when you started, I bet the college of 00:54:12.239 --> 00:54:18.517 engineering was mostly male students. Yes, it was. And then the steady 00:54:18.550 --> 00:54:24.095 influx of female students in which was very healthy, we have some 00:54:24.128 --> 00:54:28.405 excellent results from that. And what about different students of 00:54:28.438 --> 00:54:34.217 different racial backgrounds too? That's been interesting too because 00:54:34.250 --> 00:54:40.706 the mix now seems to be leveling off in pretty good shape there for a 00:54:40.739 --> 00:54:47.135 while. We didn't have that same mix and we had in class, a number of 00:54:47.168 --> 00:54:53.037 students from the Indian reservations and they turned out to be real good 00:54:53.070 --> 00:54:57.385 people. But the thing that bothered me is that once they graduated, they 00:54:57.418 --> 00:55:02.247 would go back to the reservation and then we'd never hear from them and I 00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:08.336 was hoping that some of them would stay in other areas of the state and 00:55:08.369 --> 00:55:13.195 become involved in high schools, elementary schools and all, do you think 00:55:13.228 --> 00:55:16.155 they went back and took their skills back to the reservation? We aren't 00:55:16.188 --> 00:55:21.135 certain because there was no way to track them and maybe they didn't want 00:55:21.168 --> 00:55:29.037 to be tracked, had one student who was a very foreign artist and while he 00:55:29.070 --> 00:55:34.385 was here at the university had some of his paintings in Arizona Highways 00:55:34.418 --> 00:55:40.175 Magazine. So you can tell the type of quality of people we had in that 00:55:40.208 --> 00:55:43.486 respect 00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:48.606 we had uh Peterson Zah as one of our students. And Peterson is now on 00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:54.666 campus in uh Indian relations, something of that nature. And that was an 00:55:54.699 --> 00:56:01.146 excellent choice. What was he like as a student? He was very quiet and uh 00:56:01.179 --> 00:56:07.577 low key, but uh quite effective 00:56:07.610 --> 00:56:11.865 was an interesting person too. Oh, yes, he is very. And he still is. You 00:56:11.898 --> 00:56:18.967 think of any other students that you know what they're doing now? That, 00:56:19.000 --> 00:56:22.336 no, that's difficult. 00:56:22.369 --> 00:56:28.586 I hope they're all doing well and making a fortune. 00:56:28.619 --> 00:56:33.486 You did you think of anything else that you wanted to ask her? Probably 00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:39.126 some of Denny's later after, after you retired. You've been very busy, too 00:56:39.159 --> 00:56:47.159 , very active and all with the Retirees Association. And I don't know, I 00:56:48.360 --> 00:56:52.977 could make a couple of comments. I was the first elected president of the 00:56:53.010 --> 00:56:59.546 ASU Retirees Association succeeded Bob Ellis who was kind of appointed and 00:56:59.579 --> 00:57:05.756 then as a result of that put together some travel programs where we went 00:57:05.789 --> 00:57:13.789 to England, went to Ireland, Switzerland, Spain Portugal and had groups 00:57:14.050 --> 00:57:18.967 from the university. I mean, from our retirees association that joined us 00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:25.115 on those trips and they were fun. We had a lot of fun on those. 00:57:25.148 --> 00:57:27.925 I was gonna look to see if there's anything I needed, anything that you 00:57:27.958 --> 00:57:33.727 had that you wanted to be sure that one of the prominent names that we 00:57:33.760 --> 00:57:37.675 became acquainted with uh when we first came on campus because the drive 00:57:37.708 --> 00:57:44.405 was a foot to make the college. University was Jimmy Kreisman. Now, Jimmy 00:57:44.438 --> 00:57:48.307 was very instrumental in going out through all the communities to get 00:57:48.340 --> 00:57:52.006 people to vote for that particular 00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:57.425 event and passed overwhelmingly and I can still recall. And we have those 00:57:57.458 --> 00:58:02.925 nice pictures of Dr Gamy standing on the second floor of the Memorial 00:58:02.958 --> 00:58:09.816 Union addressing several 1000 students there because the decision was made 00:58:09.849 --> 00:58:14.155 with the election that it was now a university 00:58:14.188 --> 00:58:20.526 that everybody in the state we should get into politics here because the U 00:58:20.559 --> 00:58:28.559 of A was diametrically opposed to as U becoming a college. 00:58:28.780 --> 00:58:35.675 That's true. So just like today, things went to the vote. That's true. 00:58:35.708 --> 00:58:40.635 What year was that? That it became a, well, it was uh the vote was fall of 00:58:40.668 --> 00:58:47.807 58 M became a university in uh early 59 then? Mhm. So uh and was it a 00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:55.840 close election? No, not at all? Mm mm. 00:58:56.369 --> 00:59:02.577 And that was so satisfying. Now, we were newcomers to the state so we 00:59:02.610 --> 00:59:08.827 could go out and help with the publicity, but we could not vote, which was 00:59:08.860 --> 00:59:10.945 interesting, 00:59:10.978 --> 00:59:15.615 but we thought this is a great opportunity to meet people and get involved. 00:59:15.648 --> 00:59:20.195 Although, as I indicated with a three week old baby when we moved here, 00:59:20.228 --> 00:59:25.646 so you had other things to worry about. She is now. But how many Children 00:59:25.679 --> 00:59:30.385 did you, did you have four? Did any of them go to a su? Uh Let's see, Tim 00:59:30.418 --> 00:59:38.418 did his uh phd here. Uh The other is one went to, you were there. She took 00:59:38.648 --> 00:59:42.227 two degrees down there and then she went to vet school. Then one went to 00:59:42.260 --> 00:59:50.046 NU I thought it was better that they did that. And then Colleen went to 00:59:50.079 --> 00:59:53.566 University of Colorado 00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:59.695 Boston University in Harvard. So you didn't necessarily encourage them to 00:59:59.728 --> 01:00:04.247 come to. No, I didn't because I thought being in a quasi administrative 01:00:04.280 --> 01:00:09.445 position, it might be better if they didn't. And Kathy thoroughly enjoyed 01:00:09.478 --> 01:00:13.856 Flagstaff and Patty had good experiences down at the U of A. And then Tim 01:00:13.889 --> 01:00:19.327 , after finishing at Notre Dame and 01:00:19.360 --> 01:00:26.615 Washington came back for his phd. So that wasn't so bad 01:00:26.648 --> 01:00:31.827 or, or whatever. They got a bunch of it. 01:00:31.860 --> 01:00:37.675 Anything else? I think not. I just think that my experience at A SU has 01:00:37.708 --> 01:00:45.478 just been great because the people and all of them thatparticipated