I'm Pam Stevenson and we're here today at Arizona State University uh on
July the 12th of 2002. And we're doing a, an oral history interview for
the Living History video project for the Arizona State University Retirees
Association. And um I think what I'd like to do is let you give us your
full name and tell us just in a few words, what you did at a su Thank you.
My name is Dennis Keegan and I joined the faculty at what was in Arizona
State College in August of 1958. And that was in the College of
Engineering Division of Industrial Education at that time, which
subsequently became Division of Technology. I stayed in that capacity
until 1965
when I went back to the University of Missouri and was on the faculty
there from 65 to 67. In 1967 I joined Roy Rice over in summer sessions and
what was then extension that subsequently became continuing education? And
I stayed in that capacity until 1988 when I retired. OK. It's a very
concise. We'll go back and get more details later. Um Why don't you, why
don't we back up just to start about and tell us, um, your little, your
background of when you were born and where you were born. I have to give
the date I was born. Usually
I was born April 26 1923 in North Mankato, Minnesota. I say North Mankato
because it's a county line between Blue Earth County and Nicolet County.
Was that a rural, did you grow up on a farm or no? Grow up in the city?
Um Well, tell me about uh your early years then. Uh where did you go to
school? I attended school, high school and grade school in Mankato.
Graduated from Loyola High School, which was a parochial high school in
Mankato,
attended Mankato State Teachers College at that time. Now it's Minnesota
State University
spent uh 19 enlisted in um Naval Air Corps in 1942
was discharged in 1946.
Then return to school in Mankato. Finished there, taught school at a high
school in far. Minnesota.
Went to graduate school at Stout State Institution in the nominee
Wisconsin. From there, I attended the University of Missouri in a graduate
program and from the University of Missouri, I came to
um, well, tell me about when you, when you were a high school student,
what did you think you were going to be when you grew up? I hadn't the
slightest idea.
I can be honest. Can I, I was more interested in playing football and
basketball and that was helpful and sometimes detrimental because it may
have detracted from some of the studies that I was supposed to be
attending to. You said you went to teachers college. How did you decide to
do that? It was convenient and it was reasonable.
Did you want to be a teacher? I didn't think so, but I went to school and
subsequently did become a teacher.
You mentioned that you enlisted in the military. Why don't you tell us a
little bit about where you served? And that was World War I, I World War
II, I went through Navy flight school was commissioned in the Marine Corps.
And after going through operational, I was fortunate to be an instructor
in operational flying B 25.
Where did you fly them out of mainly out of Cherry Point, North Carolina?
I was not,
that was an interesting period that I would like to talk to people that
went through that. It was very interesting and it was interesting that I
was assigned to become an instructor because we had very little choice as
to where we were going to go. And they came out with papers one day and
said, you're now an instructor. And I said, ok,
so you came back from the service and did you know then what you were
going to do? Well, yes, there after the service, many of us had a little
better idea of what values were and how we might use those values to our
benefit and on the verge of getting married and a few of those things
provided us a little better direction. A little, a little older and mature.
And um the service did a lot for a lot of us because when they give you a
multi million or multi $1000 airplane to fly, they're putting a lot of
confidence in you too.
Um So tell me about what you did after you got back from the service, then
I went right back to school. Then when I finished school, I then went to
Far Minnesota and taught in the high school. At Fair. What did you IHT
industrial education? What is that? Well, that's the practical side of uh
preparation for industry.
Describe to me some of the things that you were teaching, I was teaching
electricity, architectural drawing, cabinet making. And at the same time,
I was an assistant coach.
And how long were you there until
19
56?
That's about right. Why did you leave? Then? I went to graduate school at
the University of Missouri. What did you get? What degree did you get? I
received a doctorate at the University of Missouri
in vocational technical education. Why did you wanna go and get that
degree? It appeared to be the thing to do because there were opportunities
for people with advanced degrees that were not available for people with.
I was going to say lower degree. And that's not a fair statement at all.
But for the beginning degrees, what sort of opportunities? Well, in
colleges and universities in particular, I do not believe that I could
have obtained a position here at a su without a doctorate. So how did you
happen to come to a SU? It was announced in our department at the
University of Missouri that there was a position open and made contact
with Dean Thompson and Walter Burdett. Flew out, interviewed with them,
accepted a position and moved out here in August of that year
is a good time to come to a, it was very interesting since we grew up in
Minnesota. And at the time, we had a three week old baby traveling with us.
What was your first impression? It was hot
but it was a nice small town. I think Tempe probably had 15 or 16,000
people. The university had approximately 707,500 students. Rural road
south of Broadway was dirt and a number of those types of things were kind
of impressive to us. We also found that there was um a stock feeding lot
over on the north east corner of
Broadway and rural. And that of course, through the next few years
provided many opportunities and problems for the people of Tempe. Because
of the every time the cattle were fed, it provided uh dust and an odor
that permeated throughout the city.
That's a lot different from what it is the way it is today, that's a lot
different. So, um, what, when you came to Arizona, then where did you tell
me about how you settled in and what you did here? Well, of course, we had
to adjust to swamp coolers because a few people had air conditioning, but
it was mainly swamp coolers that we adjusted to and we felt comfortable
with our Children because they could ride bicycles up and down the street
and play after dark. I'm not certain that's true anymore. Another thing
that was true then that coat and tie was the acceptable dress for teaching
classes at a su and I don't believe that's any longer true. But then it
was, and I think that was a very strong point in our meeting with students.
So even when it was 100 and something, you were wearing a coat and tie,
you wore a coat and tie to class are the classrooms, air conditioned swamp
coolers mainly.
And where, where on campus were you located? We were in the engineering
complex which would be what's there? Now, I'm not certain what has
happened over there now, but it was just straight north of the swimming
pool.
That was the old swimming pool.
Well, the swimming pool was then immediately east of Memorial Union and
the old gym,
the old gym is partially still there and I'm not certain how much of it is
used at this point, but those were fun basketball games in the old gym
when Ned Welk was coaching and we had full house every night.
So, were you still into the sports then? At that time? Oh, yeah, I still
am. I love them. And, uh, I think sports, uh, carries a lot of people.
Tell me about when you, when you came here. Um, you described a little bit
but, um, what was your first, uh, teaching assignment? What did you teach
and describe what it was like?
I actually started teaching a class in printing in the department along
with cabinet making and drafting. And students were very ambitious, very
willing and it was very enjoyable,
pretty diverse. Group of classes. Yes. But it all fits under vocational
technical education
and tell me, did you have an office or were you? Yes, we were north of the
swimming pool on a walkway that led down toward
north end of campus, I guess.
Um, you mentioned there was like 7500 students at that time. That's an
approximation. Yes. How big were the classes you were teaching? About 20
to 24 individuals.
What would someone do? What degree did they get when they graduated? They
received a Bachelor of Stein's degree in industrial education. What could
they do that they would go out and teach in high schools?
So it was also kind of a teaching degree. Oh, yes. Mhm.
Who was the president of when I came? It was Grady. G and one of the
saddest times of course, was on Friday the day before classes left out in
1959 for Christmas vacation. That Grady Gamage died. Tell me about that.
Well, it, it hit everybody because we were a small institution then. And
, uh, it was, uh rather sudden and it affected almost everyone on campus
because I felt at that time that our faculty and staff was a very close
unit and we were able to talk with everyone. We knew most of the people on
campus. And this affected us all just like it would a family. How did you
find out about it? It was um just almost immediate common knowledge. I
can't say how the word came to us.
Not that we knew, but it was just a very sudden death.
So what happened then? How did you know, how did the school progress or
that
an institution of this nature kind of lands on its feet and progress from
there? We went through a whole series of presidents at the time. I believe
that Dr Richardson filled in as president for the remainder of that year
until
Doctor Homer Durham was appointed president.
How did they go about finding a new president in those days? And pretty
much as they do now, the word is out through the various education
associations and people make application at that time, they didn't have
the what is called headhunters out on the prowl, but that's pretty common
now. But at that time, I think people learned of the institution learned
of the location of the institution. And of course, at that time, we were
then a university and that made a big difference because people were
attracted both students, faculty and people coming into administrative
positions. Because now Arizona State College became Arizona State
University and that in itself provided the impetus for many people to
apply.
How was, how were things different when you had a new president?
Well, being in a department of didn't affect us as directly as it would
other administrators. But when Dr Durham came on board, he made it a point
of coming out to various parts of the campus just to see what was going on.
And it's my understanding that Dr Durham knew more people on campus by
name than any other president that we ever had.
He would show up in the most unlikely places on campus in purchasing over
in maintenance, over in academic departments and classrooms. So he just
kind of wandered around and was able to make that personal contact. Did
you feel that you got to know him? Yes, I did. I was president of the what
was called the faculty club in 1964
and 65. And as a result did become acquainted with Doctor Durham and that
was a very pleasant association.
Tell me a little bit more about um your, you said you were a department
when you came. Yes. And who was the chairman of the department, Walter
Burdett.
And of that, we were in the College of Engineering and Dean Lee Thompson
was uh dean of the college,
make one more comment about the faculty club that was in effect at that
time, it had two main activities. One was to host the new faculty at an
event which was to include a buffet and then the football game during the
first football game each fall. And the second activity was in the mid year
when uh Ernie Parker put on uh chicken dinner. And those were the two
activities of the at that time called the faculty club.
Ernie Parker was a professor of agriculture who was responsible for the
ASU farm, which was located south of campus and south of Palm Croft Drive.
That sounds a lot different than it is today. It, I don't think there's
any remnants of a farm down there at all anymore. So we just kind of take
it for granted that houses were built.
Pam. May I ask you a question? Sure. Uh Dennis, uh I, I if you wouldn't
mind answering to Pam, but I think it would be interesting to people to
know the parameters of the campus at that time, you know, from, do you
remember what street to what street? And so that we get a feel for what it
was like then as compared to now,
I think the parameters would be a patchy to what was then Eighth Street.
It is now a university
and
trying to think of some of the streets now that were available. Then it
was a pretty restricted campus in that respect. And I say this because the
Tempe Center was there and that was one of the borders as far as the
campus was concerned. And then the
small school that was still on campus.
But then on the west or on the east side,
it didn't extend too far east as we do now. And um, pardon Normal Avenue
would have been one of the boundaries. Thanks John Normal Avenue is the
north south and I'm not sure it's there anymore. No, I think it's gone. So
, and of course, one of the first coming on campus, they said let's go
have coffee. So we went down to the huddle. Now, do you know the huddle at
all? The huddle was located on the south east corner of Mill and what was
then Eighth Street? And it is now a university. It's long gone. But that
was kind of a nice place to go because people from campus were down there
where they had pictures of the football, basketball track, etc I better
not forget Bobby Winkles in baseball too because there are baseball
pictures there too.
Yes, that would be at the Tempe. Yes, it is. Exactly. And there have been
a number of buildings in there since the huddle, but we all felt a little
bad when the huddle left and I have no idea who ran it, but it's a prime
piece of property. So,
talk a little bit more about how big your department was and, um, how many
people were in it? How many, you know, teachers or professors, or were you
considered a professor? Is that what they called you? Yes. Well, I began
as an assistant professor. That's where you, that's the beginning level.
But we had, um,
I think six or seven faculty members in the department. I can make sure I
can name them. All right. Now, that's been a few years ago. And how many
courses, or how many classes did you teach? I taught four classes to begin
with each semester. That was pretty good load. Then later on, um, I don't
know how many years later we negotiated down to three classes and that was
, um, a little more comfortable.
Did you have semesters then, or what? Yes. Mhm.
Well, talk about how your career progressed. You say you came here as a,
an assistant professor?
When did you move up or? How did you?
Well, I can't recall, uh, definitely when, but I was then promoted to
associate professor and then by 19
65 to professor. And that's when I left and went to Missouri and then
returned in 1967
an opportunity back at the University of Missouri where they had a rather
extensive program and that's where I had gone to school. So I thought it
was a compliment to be invited back to be on the faculty at the University
of Missouri. But you didn't stay very long. I stayed there two years and
we miss Arizona and had an opportunity to work in another area on coming
back to work with Roy Rice through summer sessions and extension. So we
thought that was a good opportunity. Well, tell me about that. Which part
coming back, what was that new, the new opportunity was to move into
administration as compared with teaching. Although the first two years I
was back, I also taught a class every semester and then working with Roy
Rice and some of those people was a real opportunity because we were doing
such diverse things as developing programs all over the valley along with
an extensive summer session program. Why was the university getting into
that diversifying out into the community? We thought that was our
responsibility to provide services, graduate classes in particular for
teachers all over the valley. We had an interesting experience later on
when we were developing programs in that, we developed a center at Metro
Center and that was through the good graces of Rusty Lyons who was then
president of West. We went out and negotiated with him about setting up
programs out there. And he said, well, come down and look at some square
footage that we have in the basement. We went down, looked at it, drew it
up, put classes there. I think we had eight classrooms down in Metro
Center and that stayed that way until some further development in the West
Side program.
So, what kind of classes did you offer in continuing it? Oh, we offered a
very wide variety, uh, education classes, liberal arts classes. And uh any
type that uh we thought would attract people all through the valley.
Your role in that? we were the administrators of that identified places to
put classes and we had many classes in some of the high schools and
elementary schools throughout the valley and we would negotiate with the
high school administrators, the elementary school administrators set up
contracts, how much rent we would pay and go from there.
Um Tell me, you know, in all of your years here at a su is there anything
that stands out in your, your memory of um being a particularly
interesting or memorable event? Well, I think uh one of the highlights was
the opening of a G auditorium, of course, which uh was Philadelphia
Symphony came in played. They came back for the 25th anniversary too,
which I thought was very nice. And then our athletic program was taking
off then with Frank Kush as head coach and ned WK as head coach of
basketball, Baldy Castillo track Bobby Winkles in baseball. And those were
very exciting times in just as a spectator and as a friend which I hope
was a friend to the coaches because being a smaller institution at the
time, we were able to become well acquainted with some of them. In fact,
our oldest daughter baby sat for Bobby Winkle's Children when they won the
first college World Series.
Yeah, it was more of a small community. Yes, it was. You mentioned about
auditorium. Um, what was that? That's such a landmark. It, people feel
like it's been there forever. But what was that like when that was built?
What was on that corner before there was uh some
housing there which was used during the war and then faculty and some
staff moved in there after the war and it was on that curved corner. But
all of those had to be removed, I think um Bill Kajikawa lived down there
for a while.
George Morrell on a Frio, Billy Quinn.
Excuse me? It was also an archery. Oh, yes. Very close to that. Mhm. Right.
How long did it take to build damage? Was that a big project going on? It
was a huge project. And then how long it took? I can't recall, we were
just very interested in this progress.
What about your, your own career? Do you have any um Do you remember the,
the, the one of the best part of your career? I think the best part of my
career was being hired at Arizona State College because um from there on
then, uh we worked everything out and then the other highlight would be
rehired in, uh, 1967.
Uh, was there some doubt that they would want you back if there was, they
didn't make me aware of it and I think that was kind on their part. So if
there were people that didn't want me back, they didn't come to the
surface.
What about any, um, you know, negative experiences? Is there any difficult
time? Oh, I'd rather not go into those because those uh shouldn't remain
buried, I think. But I would give you a couple of things that uh I thought
were highlights. We held commencement at um the stadium and in the early
couple years that commencement was held up in the stadium, the north end
was open and that was a field day for mosquitoes.
We came out of there and um that was in the early sixties in particular
that uh that occurred. But I can remember um
Gilbert Katy saying, man, I'm glad that's over because I was getting
bitten alive by mosquitoes.
And that was, the river was dry at that time, wasn't it? Yes. But uh if we
had a rain, there would be some water in it. But uh the river was usually
dry.
So wherever did the mosquitoes come from then right out of the river, they
had little pockets of moisture down there that they would come out of.
Can I make a suggestion? Dennis? Uh I'd like for you to really uh
elaborate on your summer sessions. That's when I really got to know you
was when you were in summer, uh had a summer sessions.
So that evolved into really quite a, I thought a very big part of the
whole academic um part, you know, part of a, of a su so, yes, we did some
things in summer sessions that attracted people because by that time our
classrooms were air conditioned and we were able to attract people here
from all over the country because some of them would want to come from for
a quasi vacation and others would be coming from around the state to
participate primarily in a graduate program. And from a very small
beginning in summer sessions, we worked up to 25,000 students in the
summer and that's for two sessions. And we also ran some programs at
Gamage Auditorium in the summer which people said would never work. But
they did because people were looking for entertainment in the summer. We
had the preservation hall, jazz band from New Orleans here every summer
because they were such a draw on the people around
and we did provide good services for people in the summers. It also
provided an excellent opportunity for faculty to teach at least one
session in the summer because they were paid extra for the teaching in the
summer.
You remember any particular classes that you started in the summer that
maybe weren't available other times? No I can't come up with one at this
time, but that's an interesting question. It would be fun to check back
and see what started. But I can't. We had a number of high school students
that would come over, graduate from high school, come over and start their
university experience in the summer because classes were smaller and it
was an excellent transition for them. So that when the classes started in
the fall, they were already acquainted with the facilities, the campus and
recognizing that there would be a lot more students on campus in the fall.
And do you want to ask another question? Sure.
One of my memorable experiences of 1961 was registration.
Would you talk a little bit about how that took place? Registration at
that particular period was a difficult and um frustrating experience
because people would line up to get classes and class cards and then to
try to get everybody into a position to get those. And that's why in
particular for summer sessions, we started telephone registration and were
able to bring people in without standing in those long lines. And that was
a real benefit to the students because standing in line out in the heat
discouraged many people, but where they could then telephone register and
then eventually online register as they do. Now, that was a real benefit.
And the registrar's office was extremely cooper with us in that
particular respect. So how long was it that they did the old, the old
style registration. And when did you change? I can't give you a date on it
because uh even for fall registration, we used to set up in the old gym
and uh we'd have these cards for each class and when we ran out of cards,
of course, the class was closed. And uh but there was an advantage in
having that registration in the old gym in that we met and became
acquainted with faculty from every department on campus. And that to me
was a real advantage. I had some very close friends as a result of that,
describe for me how that worked, the faculty actually had to be there at
the table and hand out. Yes, we all set up at a table similar to one here
and had boxes of these cards which identified each class. And then when a
person signed up, they would get a card which would allow them in and they
would be recorded that they were then a bona fide member of that class.
And then they would go from there with all of these to pay their fees,
had to do it. Oh, yes, we were all required to be there and to distribute
the cards. Of course, that also gave us an opportunity to meet incoming
students. So there were some good parts to that as well as the frustration
level that occurred with many of many of our faculty and students.
So one thing I'd like to get on tape if you would is, you know, the
setting. In other words, when I registered the first time we actually had
it, I thought it was at, uh, the stadium because we were outside, uh,
maybe the line was outside and then we come into the, into the gym. But if
you could describe a little bit about how, how that was just the logistics.
Yes, that was that Orange Avenue, right? The lines would extend out on
Orange Avenue in order to get into the old gym so that the old gym wasn't
so crowded that you couldn't move around. Yes, up and down the street
there.
Rather interesting. See those streets were all open then see College
Avenue was a through street all the way through the campus and of course,
that class change time and people trying to drive through there total
chaos, but kind of fun too. People seem to take it as a matter of course
and meet their friends there because the Union itself was a focal point
for much of the social activity for our students. And the old library was
then just down the street and uh many people focused on that. What time of
year was that registration? Well, it would be late August
and hot. So, and uh the old gym of course, didn't have adequate uh,
refrigeration
still doesn't.
But those were interesting times because we kind of worked our way through
it as a team rather than as individuals. And as I said, made good friends
by that type of registration. Well, it sounds like the professors are much
more kind of hands on involved in it too. I think you're right.
And which is not all bad,
describe some of the more memorable people that you remember from your day
to day issue. Well, I guess I could start with um Doctor Gamage. It was
all, it was a pleasure to have his acquaintance. And of course, the Lee
Thompson, tell me about what was he like? He was kind of a private person
, but at the same time, he was always on campus. His favorite walk was the
palm walk up that leads north and south on campus and still there. And of
course, he lived in the house at that time right there on campus and a
very nice person. Of course, Mrs Gamage was the ultimate in graciousness.
But uh we saw him at many faculty occasions and he was at all of them,
most of the presidents were, and that was always beneficial too.
That was different than it is today though, for the family to actually
live right there. Oh, yes. I'm not certain. I don't quite know where the
president lives. I think it's in South Phoenix someplace. But now Doctor
Crow coming in, I have no idea where he's going to live. But, um, some of
the people lived at the place on uh South College. Uh Doctor New Burton
lived there and I think Dr Durham lived there before they moved out to
Scottsdale.
But it is no longer used as the president's home. That was kind of nice
because they had a faculty wives reception at the President's home every
fall. And all of the ladies looked forward to going to that because then
they met new faculty and renewed old acquaintances.
Well, I felt it was, yes, because as I indicated, we were able to become
acquainted with others. Just as an example I mentioned Frank Kush got to
know Frank, got to know Ned Baldy Bobby Winkles. And that was always
pleasant too because their offices were right over near the old gym. They
weren't isolated as they are today and they would show up for coffee then
at the union after the huddle uh huddle demise,
tell me about some of the other people you started to mention someone else.
Well, it was Lee Thompson who and then George Beakley and a number of
those people from the College of Engineering and then people over in
business was Lee was the Dean of College of Engineering. And I think his
origins are Texas. He was also interested in cattle raising somewhere
around the valley, but a very interesting person and the college, how big
was it at that time? When you, I can't guess, I don't know,
what was he like? You know, he was a Texan, but he was very uh very
accommodating, very uh nice to work with. He and uh the chairman of our
department, Walter Burdett had a very good working relationship so that uh
affected all of us. But uh we then became acquainted with most of the
people in the College of Engineering like Charlie Hoyt, George Beakley. Um
I can't remember all their names now. Well, describe some of them for me
who, who were they? Well, they were uh people in uh various uh departments
like civil engineering, electrical engineering and a number of those
programs. And I can't recall all of their names at this point. So I'm
sorry. Yeah, I was just doing some research about Benny Gonzalez in the co
the College of Architecture. It started with industrial, it started from
an industrial design school. Was that under engineering? Yes, it was in
the beginning. Tell me about how that sort of, well, that was an
interesting involvement. It was uh kind of continuing and then all of a
sudden it emerged as a college and um trying to quick think of the early
dean June. Can you help me with the early dean of end of architecture who
was involved in the Rio Salado project?
Jim Jim Elmore was involved and Jim was a very interesting and ambitious
person.
Well, he was always looking forward and involving his students in projects
and the students that he involved were primarily responsible for the Rio
Sola project. And Jim kind of got them going, got their wheels turning and
then kind of left them going and then pulled it all together. But Jim was
a real nice person. Yeah. And that was industrial arts. You said you
taught some architectural drawing. Well, I didn't hear I did that in high
school.
So, so you didn't work directly in that area then? No, I did not. No, the
uh college of Architecture was on the second floor of the College of
Engineering when it started and then they subsequently moved to the west
side of campus.
I think uh Carl Dannen Feld was Dean of Liberal Arts when uh we came in 58
and Chuck Wolf was subsequently deaned. There was somebody in between,
I can't remember all of them. Now this goes back and uh I was wondering if
you'd like to comment on some of the other presidents that you served
under besides Durham. And
yeah, one of the people that um
well, how will I put? I'm trying to think now with the number of them, I
had some listed here. But what did I do with it? You know how that goes,
Harry New Bern served in an interim capacity and Harry was a very strong
administrator. He had been president of two or three universities prior to
coming here to head up a higher education division. And in the interim
between
Durham and
Harry Newbern filled in for two years and I always, always impressed with
him because we would go to Dean's Council. And one of the first ones,
Harry sat up there and said, no, I want all your opinions and I want them
just straightforward.
But then he said, you have to remember that I'll make the final decision
and, and he did very effectively. So he was fun. So why didn't he stay?
Well, it was just, he had served in that capacity and he was a little
older and he agreed to serve just two years and very effectively.
Ok. So then who can you uh Doctor Wada? And when I was at Missouri, I knew
who Doctor Schwa was because he came from Missouri to here and then came
in and served in that capacity.
Well, he was a different administrator than
Harry New Bern or G Homer Durham was, he relied on committees and this
type of thing to run the administration. He wasn't as close to people as
other presidents were, but at the same time, a very effective
administrator,
then it would be Dr Nelson. I believe that came in after him. And
he was again, each president had a different personality, different method
of administering the university all effective in their own way. So it was
kind of interesting to all of us.
Well, he was more aloof than some of the others. Harry New Bern was a
grass roots and Dr Nelson was more aloof and maybe an academic of that
nature. But he was effective in his own way too. How does the president of
a university affect the, the campus and, and the very, very positively and
directly because they are dealing with the legislature, the budget and
they're also dealing with all of the deans and vice presidents on campus.
So they have a positive and direct influence on the activities of the
university.
Do you? As, as a professor actually, is it different with different
presidents
in a way? Yes, because you have a different feel for what is involved. As
I indicated, Dr Durham was probably the most visible on campus because he
would get around to all types of areas
of all of your accomplishments and things that you've done here. What,
which ones do you look back on with the most satisfaction? I guess the
success we had in summer sessions because that was a positive growth and
uh worked all away from there. Was that something brand new that you
started? No, no, that was started back in probably 1932.
There are some materials that we put together that the classes were
offered in the summer sessions and primarily on the shady side of the
building because there was no air conditioning, but the students came and
we have somewhere, there are statistics indicating the number of students
in the first session and then running through to 19 41
when uh the enrollment just dropped off like a rock and then didn't pick
up again until 1946.
Well, it seems like a lot of things in, in Arizona, Phoenix people closed
down for the summer and left town. So that was traditional and a lot of
families just left. But with the advent of air conditioning and the advent
of more activities in the valley in the summer, more people have stayed.
So does that impact the decision to really increase the summer session?
Definitely, of course, air conditioning made all the difference in the
world to our classrooms and to students coming in from the east or
wherever they were coming from.
Describe for me just in, you know, some of the things about a su that how
it changed from the time when you first arrived in the fifties until you
know, your retirement or today, I suppose one of the biggest changes
occurred right after the university became a university. When that
designation hit, then our enrollment just exploded. It also affected the
population in Tempe and the surrounding area because we are now a
university. We have programs, we need service units around the school and
these are the things we need to expand on. And then after I guess we hit
about 25,000 in the summer that kind of leveled off because classrooms and
all were approximately full. Then.
What about the construction of new buildings and things on campus? Have
you seen that? I have watched it from a distance. Now, there are some
great buildings on campus now and I think it will continue to grow. There
was some early in the 60 s, there was some indication that the university
would buy the property south of Apache Boulevard to the railroad track
that didn't occur. But uh there was a proposal to do that and of course,
you could see what might have happened to have that occurred. But then
going different directions, acquiring Tempe Center and acquiring all of
the property, then to the east of Normal now to rough road and then north
to the river, there's a lot of property there and some development.
They're building new buildings that I don't even know the designation of
at the present time
construction. But the frightening part of it is nobody asks me anymore
whether I think it's a good idea or not.
Did they use? No,
uh what advice do you have for, for young people today who are just
starting either choosing their college or choosing a career?
That's a tough question because I have grandchildren coming up that I'd
like to give some advice to. And I'm not sure they'll take it either, but
it's a matter of applying yourself. And I know a number of us right out of
high school didn't apply ourselves immediately. And it took a war to make
us realize some of the values of education. And there are tremendous
values of pursuing a degree. And I think I have a feeling for some of the
students out of a small high school and I'll utilize aho as an example, a
student graduating from a high school coming on campus at ASU has to feel
a little lost. And I think there the opportunity to get involved with some
group such as the band, such as the orchestra or any of those activities
where a person would feel a part of something and in that way they can
grow and as a result, feel a lot more at home. And then that would also
imply over into their education where now they have kind of a quasi home
in a band or orchestra or one of these or the athletics and then apply
themselves in the classroom.
What about choosing a career or a major?
A lot of people slide into a career as opposed to choosing one? I think a
number of us would be examples of that. But I think choosing a career too
early is detrimental because you might overlook some very interesting and
productive disciplines that you might otherwise avoid. Now, there are many
people whose fathers are doctors and they want to go to medical school.
This is understandable, but not everyone has that kind of impetus. But I
think that exploration the first two years of college or university work
is rather important. What's the most important thing do you think about
when you finally do choose a career to then uh concentrate on it and go
for it because, uh, it, uh, is what you're going to be living with the
rest of your life.
You mentioned, you know, students from, aho. And, and how have you seen
the, the diversity of students change on the campus?
Well, that's a tough question because you see students on campus and
there's no way to know where they're from or what their background is and
you go out on the mall and find out there's a lot of students there. They
all look alike with the exception. Some are prettier than others. It's the
boys that are pretty boy. Could I get in trouble with that one?
It seems like, you know, when you started, I bet the college of
engineering was mostly male students. Yes, it was. And then the steady
influx of female students in which was very healthy, we have some
excellent results from that. And what about different students of
different racial backgrounds too? That's been interesting too because
the mix now seems to be leveling off in pretty good shape there for a
while. We didn't have that same mix and we had in class, a number of
students from the Indian reservations and they turned out to be real good
people. But the thing that bothered me is that once they graduated, they
would go back to the reservation and then we'd never hear from them and I
was hoping that some of them would stay in other areas of the state and
become involved in high schools, elementary schools and all, do you think
they went back and took their skills back to the reservation? We aren't
certain because there was no way to track them and maybe they didn't want
to be tracked, had one student who was a very foreign artist and while he
was here at the university had some of his paintings in Arizona Highways
Magazine. So you can tell the type of quality of people we had in that
respect
we had uh Peterson Zah as one of our students. And Peterson is now on
campus in uh Indian relations, something of that nature. And that was an
excellent choice. What was he like as a student? He was very quiet and uh
low key, but uh quite effective
was an interesting person too. Oh, yes, he is very. And he still is. You
think of any other students that you know what they're doing now? That,
no, that's difficult.
I hope they're all doing well and making a fortune.
You did you think of anything else that you wanted to ask her? Probably
some of Denny's later after, after you retired. You've been very busy, too
, very active and all with the Retirees Association. And I don't know, I
could make a couple of comments. I was the first elected president of the
ASU Retirees Association succeeded Bob Ellis who was kind of appointed and
then as a result of that put together some travel programs where we went
to England, went to Ireland, Switzerland, Spain Portugal and had groups
from the university. I mean, from our retirees association that joined us
on those trips and they were fun. We had a lot of fun on those.
I was gonna look to see if there's anything I needed, anything that you
had that you wanted to be sure that one of the prominent names that we
became acquainted with uh when we first came on campus because the drive
was a foot to make the college. University was Jimmy Kreisman. Now, Jimmy
was very instrumental in going out through all the communities to get
people to vote for that particular
event and passed overwhelmingly and I can still recall. And we have those
nice pictures of Dr Gamy standing on the second floor of the Memorial
Union addressing several 1000 students there because the decision was made
with the election that it was now a university
that everybody in the state we should get into politics here because the U
of A was diametrically opposed to as U becoming a college.
That's true. So just like today, things went to the vote. That's true.
What year was that? That it became a, well, it was uh the vote was fall of
58 M became a university in uh early 59 then? Mhm. So uh and was it a
close election? No, not at all? Mm mm.
And that was so satisfying. Now, we were newcomers to the state so we
could go out and help with the publicity, but we could not vote, which was
interesting,
but we thought this is a great opportunity to meet people and get involved.
Although, as I indicated with a three week old baby when we moved here,
so you had other things to worry about. She is now. But how many Children
did you, did you have four? Did any of them go to a su? Uh Let's see, Tim
did his uh phd here. Uh The other is one went to, you were there. She took
two degrees down there and then she went to vet school. Then one went to
NU I thought it was better that they did that. And then Colleen went to
University of Colorado
Boston University in Harvard. So you didn't necessarily encourage them to
come to. No, I didn't because I thought being in a quasi administrative
position, it might be better if they didn't. And Kathy thoroughly enjoyed
Flagstaff and Patty had good experiences down at the U of A. And then Tim
, after finishing at Notre Dame and
Washington came back for his phd. So that wasn't so bad
or, or whatever. They got a bunch of it.
Anything else? I think not. I just think that my experience at A SU has
just been great because the people and all of them thatparticipated