WEBVTT 00:00:04.019 --> 00:00:06.019 It is Tuesday, January 23rd of 2007. And uh we're here to do a, an oral 00:00:11.419 --> 00:00:15.857 history interview or the living history video project of the Arizona State 00:00:15.890 --> 00:00:20.826 University Retirees Association. Uh I'm Pam Stevenson during the interview. 00:00:20.859 --> 00:00:25.817 And Manny Garcia is our videographer and I'd like to let you introduce 00:00:25.850 --> 00:00:30.666 yourself. So we get that pronunciation. Right. I'm uh Elmer Gooding and uh 00:00:30.699 --> 00:00:33.807 retired from a su 00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:37.106 let's start off with talking about your early life. And we started the 00:00:37.139 --> 00:00:41.875 beginning when and where were you born? I was born in Lawrence, Kansas in 00:00:41.908 --> 00:00:48.146 1941. And about five years after that, my parents moved to a little 00:00:48.179 --> 00:00:51.826 community called Tampa Kansas. And that's where I grew up. They moved 00:00:51.859 --> 00:00:56.487 there because my grandfather passed away and they um 00:00:56.520 --> 00:01:00.527 there so they could take care of my grandmother and my father had a small 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:04.846 produce business and that's where I grew up and went all the way through 00:01:04.879 --> 00:01:08.486 high school. 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:10.855 A lot of 00:01:10.888 --> 00:01:15.007 this was a very small farming community and a very small high school and 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.736 it was the kind of high school where you could participate in everything 00:01:18.769 --> 00:01:21.617 because there were so few students. So you could be in the band, you could 00:01:21.650 --> 00:01:25.555 be in the choir. You could be out for all athletics and they scheduled 00:01:25.588 --> 00:01:29.436 around everything so that all students could participate 00:01:29.469 --> 00:01:35.046 a good solid beginning education there. Your family wasn't farming. No, we 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:42.266 , my father had a business produce company and purchased eggs and sold 00:01:42.299 --> 00:01:48.816 chicken feed, cattle, feed, things like that. 00:01:48.849 --> 00:01:54.846 Oh, I see. They purchased eggs from the farmers and then wholesaled them 00:01:54.879 --> 00:01:59.676 out to some, to Oklahoma and some to Kansas City had a truck. We hauled 00:01:59.709 --> 00:02:05.376 them up there. That was when I decided I didn't want to be a truck driver. 00:02:05.409 --> 00:02:10.755 Did you do some truck driving? Oh, yes. Yes. During that time I did, um, 00:02:10.788 --> 00:02:14.835 you say it was a small school? How small was your class? My class had 10 00:02:14.868 --> 00:02:20.356 students at 10 in the graduating class. That is small. It was very small. 00:02:20.389 --> 00:02:25.995 And so going to school, what was your favorite subject? 00:02:26.028 --> 00:02:33.237 Um, I enjoyed math and, um, enjoyed, uh, literature. Uh, probably two of 00:02:33.270 --> 00:02:38.055 the things that I enjoyed most of that time. Talk about all the other 00:02:38.088 --> 00:02:42.495 activities. Were you involved in the? Yes, I was involved in all the 00:02:42.528 --> 00:02:47.116 sports that they offered baseball, basketball 00:02:47.149 --> 00:02:55.149 and participated in the choir and a men's chorus. Uh, one act plays. We 00:02:55.500 --> 00:03:00.916 had competition for those in the district that we were in. Got a chance to 00:03:00.949 --> 00:03:03.797 do a lot of things 00:03:03.830 --> 00:03:06.237 and growing up, what did you say? You knew you didn't want to be a truck 00:03:06.270 --> 00:03:10.096 driver. What did you think you wanted to be? Well, I thought I wanted to 00:03:10.129 --> 00:03:15.055 be a teacher. I kind of liked working with people and working with 00:03:15.088 --> 00:03:18.916 students. And so I thought a teaching career was probably something that I 00:03:18.949 --> 00:03:23.305 would pursue. I didn't know for sure. I thought it was either that or go 00:03:23.338 --> 00:03:28.146 into business. Probably teaching. 00:03:28.179 --> 00:03:33.207 And when did you decide to go to college and that sort of thing? Well, I 00:03:33.240 --> 00:03:37.475 had a pretty good academic record. So I got communication from a lot of 00:03:37.508 --> 00:03:42.286 schools and offers and scholarships and things like that. So my parents 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:46.126 were fairly poor. We couldn't afford to go to school or at least, didn't 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:50.267 think we could. But then when we got the scholarships I could. So I did 00:03:50.300 --> 00:03:56.636 and I ended up going to mcpherson College, which is only about 40 miles 00:03:56.669 --> 00:04:02.446 from where I grew up and they offered me a nice academic scholarship. So 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:08.616 it made it attractive to go there. Had your parents go to college? 00:04:08.649 --> 00:04:11.207 I think my father would like to have been an attorney but never had that 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:13.585 opportunity. 00:04:13.618 --> 00:04:17.395 Did you have brothers and sisters? Yes. I'm the youngest of five. I had 00:04:17.428 --> 00:04:22.656 two brothers and two sisters and then me 00:04:22.689 --> 00:04:27.036 had one sister that went through nurses training and the rest of them all 00:04:27.069 --> 00:04:32.697 went through high school. 00:04:32.730 --> 00:04:36.526 Well, I guess so. Although I had always been kind of academically oriented. 00:04:36.559 --> 00:04:41.416 So, I think they weren't too surprised. I think when I went, 00:04:41.449 --> 00:04:44.486 what was that? Like 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:49.536 mcpherson College? It was a small liberal arts college located in 00:04:49.569 --> 00:04:56.257 mcpherson, Kansas and it was a good opportunity, good solid education. Um 00:04:56.290 --> 00:04:58.437 , 00:04:58.470 --> 00:05:03.166 small enough that I think the enrollment at that time is around 500 small 00:05:03.199 --> 00:05:06.257 enough that you got to know everybody 00:05:06.290 --> 00:05:11.156 had a good experience there. What did you major in? Economics and business 00:05:11.189 --> 00:05:14.866 ? 00:05:14.899 --> 00:05:19.515 Well, I had one professor that was particularly kind of a mentor for me 00:05:19.548 --> 00:05:22.627 and 00:05:22.660 --> 00:05:27.317 he encouraged me to study economics. And in fact, he was the dean of the 00:05:27.350 --> 00:05:31.776 college. Um 00:05:31.809 --> 00:05:36.127 the first economics course I took, I wasn't too enthralled with it and 00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:39.476 then took the second one and began to get more and more interested in it. 00:05:39.509 --> 00:05:43.596 And so I enjoyed the business curriculum and the economics curriculum. 00:05:43.629 --> 00:05:51.629 This particular professor was dean at that time and he was fairly busy in 00:05:51.838 --> 00:05:56.507 his schedule and traveled a little bit and on a couple of occasions, he 00:05:56.540 --> 00:06:00.387 was gone from the campus and asked me to teach his class when I was a 00:06:00.420 --> 00:06:04.096 senior. And I thought that was a big thrill. 00:06:04.129 --> 00:06:08.075 He called me into his office one day and said, you really need to go to 00:06:08.108 --> 00:06:11.447 graduate school. And I said I can't afford to go to graduate school. And 00:06:11.480 --> 00:06:16.705 he said, you can't afford not to. And so he encouraged me and I ended up 00:06:16.738 --> 00:06:21.187 going on to graduate school. Largely because of his encouragement and we 00:06:21.220 --> 00:06:26.817 stayed in contact over all these years. Been a real mentor. 00:06:26.850 --> 00:06:32.325 He is living yet and just communicated with him a couple months ago. Why 00:06:32.358 --> 00:06:36.067 did he think it was so important for you to go to graduate school? Well, I 00:06:36.100 --> 00:06:43.296 think he, I don't know, I think he was, shouldn't use the term impressed 00:06:43.329 --> 00:06:48.055 maybe, but felt that I had the academic ability to go on and I should 00:06:48.088 --> 00:06:54.406 explore that and pursue higher education. 00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:57.507 What did you think of that coming from a family where people didn't go to 00:06:57.540 --> 00:07:02.007 college? That must have been kind of a radical idea. Well, it was a little 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:07.286 bit, although as I said, I was always kind of academically oriented and 00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:10.906 was valedictorian in high school and all those kinds of things that kind 00:07:10.939 --> 00:07:15.796 of encouraged me to go along. And so the thought of teaching at the 00:07:15.829 --> 00:07:22.116 college level was kind of intriguing. And so I thought, well, this is good. 00:07:22.149 --> 00:07:27.007 Let's try it. And it worked out well. Where did you go to school? I went 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:32.476 to the University of Kansas at Lawrence. And I had, 00:07:32.509 --> 00:07:36.786 I met my wife when I was in high school and she attended another small 00:07:36.819 --> 00:07:41.796 school close by where I went to school. We were in the same conference so 00:07:41.829 --> 00:07:44.205 we got acquainted. 00:07:44.238 --> 00:07:51.486 Uh then uh she ended up going to Selena to a business college and then she 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:55.656 worked in an insurance office for four years. In mcpherson while I was 00:07:55.689 --> 00:07:59.096 going to school at mcpherson College. So that worked out well. And then 00:07:59.129 --> 00:08:03.817 after my junior year, we were married and so 00:08:03.850 --> 00:08:07.257 we were married for one year then in mcpherson, and then we moved on to 00:08:07.290 --> 00:08:12.187 Lawrence together. So I was a student by the time I got to graduate school. 00:08:12.220 --> 00:08:17.096 And what was graduate school like? It was very good. We had an excellent 00:08:17.129 --> 00:08:23.296 faculty there. A large number of faculty had come from other institutions. 00:08:23.329 --> 00:08:29.015 They had a hiring influx of some very, very good faculty. So it was a 00:08:29.048 --> 00:08:34.927 good experience was a big college. The University of Kansas was at that 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:42.960 time, probably 12 or 13,000, maybe it was a much larger institution. 00:08:43.379 --> 00:08:47.467 So what were your goals then in going there? Well, I wanted to become a 00:08:47.500 --> 00:08:52.297 professor that was pretty clearly what I wanted to do. At that point. I 00:08:52.330 --> 00:08:56.157 pretty well made my decision and they gave me several teaching 00:08:56.190 --> 00:09:00.047 opportunities while I was there at the University of Kansas first as a 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:04.787 teaching assistant. And then they gave me classes of my own. And in fact, 00:09:04.820 --> 00:09:11.417 in my last year, I was teaching the class that the phd in business 00:09:11.450 --> 00:09:15.956 students were taking in macroeconomics. The economics department and the 00:09:15.989 --> 00:09:18.907 business College were located in the same building, but economics was 00:09:18.940 --> 00:09:23.787 actually in arts and sciences there. So each of the phd in business 00:09:23.820 --> 00:09:30.537 students had to take a macro and micro theory class and So, during my last 00:09:30.570 --> 00:09:33.505 year there, I stayed there working on my dissertation. They had me 00:09:33.538 --> 00:09:39.125 teaching that class to the other phd students. That was quite a thrill. 00:09:39.158 --> 00:09:47.158 You were already, I was teaching before I left there. 00:09:47.408 --> 00:09:54.366 Well, I left there in 1967 and came to a U. I actually had finished my 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:57.976 master's degree and I had everything finished. But my dissertation, I was 00:09:58.009 --> 00:10:03.596 a BD at that time and it was kind of the pattern in those days to hire 00:10:03.629 --> 00:10:06.986 people before they finished their dissertations. 00:10:07.019 --> 00:10:11.086 So I was brought here or I came here and I actually finished my 00:10:11.119 --> 00:10:17.076 dissertation the following year. And then actual graduation was actually 00:10:17.109 --> 00:10:23.375 in 1969. 2 years later, I finished that spring. What was your dissertation 00:10:23.408 --> 00:10:30.226 on? I put together a general equilibrium analysis of a three country two 00:10:30.259 --> 00:10:36.025 commodity model to look at the process of trade discrimination and try to 00:10:36.058 --> 00:10:40.547 analyze the impact of maybe discriminating in favor of one country and 00:10:40.580 --> 00:10:45.375 against another to see what impact this might have. It was an interesting 00:10:45.408 --> 00:10:53.408 model and how did you happen to come back to a SU I went to San Francisco 00:10:54.519 --> 00:11:02.519 in the, well, I was around January, December, January of 1960 in December 00:11:03.710 --> 00:11:09.217 or January of 1966 67. And they were having the American Economic 00:11:09.250 --> 00:11:13.236 Association meetings there and there was a group from A U that was there 00:11:13.269 --> 00:11:17.417 interviewing people. So you had the opportunity to schedule interviews 00:11:17.450 --> 00:11:24.057 with a fairly large number of institutions based on prior contacts. And so 00:11:24.090 --> 00:11:29.037 I had scheduled to interview with people at, I thought it would be a good 00:11:29.070 --> 00:11:32.986 institution to come to. I didn't know that I'd end up here. What did you 00:11:33.019 --> 00:11:38.326 know about a su at that time? Well, actually 00:11:38.359 --> 00:11:45.255 not a huge amount. I knew that I knew of a issue and one of my professors 00:11:45.288 --> 00:11:52.106 in graduate school had been here to visit, not on the faculty, but had 00:11:52.139 --> 00:11:56.967 been here as a visit. And he had said, oh, that's a good place for you to 00:11:57.000 --> 00:12:01.145 go and be sure to interview with them. And so I did and I thought it was 00:12:01.178 --> 00:12:04.076 an institution that if I decided to move and go somewhere else I could 00:12:04.109 --> 00:12:08.467 move from here because it was well enough known. And so that's about what 00:12:08.500 --> 00:12:13.346 I knew about it at the time. Mostly second hand information, 00:12:13.379 --> 00:12:18.287 Arizona or Phoenix. Well, not a lot. But as always before an interview, 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.436 you always do some research and try to find out as much as you can about 00:12:21.469 --> 00:12:25.015 the place and try to learn as much as you can before you go into an 00:12:25.048 --> 00:12:31.066 interview. So you don't, don't appear that you're not prepared. 00:12:31.099 --> 00:12:36.047 What did you found out about it? Well, it looked like it was a growing 00:12:36.080 --> 00:12:42.096 place, the climate looked wonderful and it looked like it would be a very 00:12:42.129 --> 00:12:45.496 desirable place to live 00:12:45.529 --> 00:12:49.537 as far as the faculty, I really hadn't learned a great deal about the 00:12:49.570 --> 00:12:54.427 faculty that were already here that came in my study before I came for an 00:12:54.460 --> 00:12:59.255 on campus interview later in January. 00:12:59.288 --> 00:13:04.125 So you interviewed in San Francisco and then they invited you here? Yes. 00:13:04.158 --> 00:13:08.986 In fact, I got back home and John Cochrane was the chairman of the 00:13:09.019 --> 00:13:12.765 economics department at that time. And he called me almost as soon as I 00:13:12.798 --> 00:13:15.976 got home and wanted me to come out immediately for an interview. Well, I 00:13:16.009 --> 00:13:19.287 had some other institutions that I wanted to take a look at. And so I kind 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:23.667 of held off for a little bit until later in January. And then I came out 00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:27.476 for a visit in January when I came out here, it was beautiful and the 00:13:27.509 --> 00:13:33.456 sunshine and my wife was at home scooping snow. So it made quite an 00:13:33.489 --> 00:13:36.846 impression on me 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:41.635 that no, I didn't. It was beautiful. It was warm shirt sleeve weather in 00:13:41.668 --> 00:13:44.436 January. 00:13:44.469 --> 00:13:48.566 What other universities were you looking at? 00:13:48.599 --> 00:13:56.599 Oh, I looked at Texas Tech and North Texas State and uh 00:13:57.168 --> 00:14:00.645 there were several unsolicited offers that I got in places that I never 00:14:00.678 --> 00:14:07.326 went to visit. I was interested at that time in looking at schools that 00:14:07.359 --> 00:14:13.366 were in states that were kind of adjacent to Kansas because that's where 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:18.375 all of her family was from. As I mentioned, my family was a family of five 00:14:18.408 --> 00:14:22.125 and my mother and father were still living and my wife was from a family 00:14:22.158 --> 00:14:27.496 of seven Children. She was 1/5 of seven. And so we thought, gee, it'd be 00:14:27.529 --> 00:14:34.226 nice to be in Nebraska or Colorado or Missouri or Oklahoma or maybe Texas 00:14:34.259 --> 00:14:38.066 not get too far from home. But, but then the opportunity came here at 00:14:38.099 --> 00:14:44.375 Arizona State and it looked like it was a good career move for us. 00:14:44.408 --> 00:14:49.635 He didn't consider staying in Kansas. Well, I had talked to the people at 00:14:49.668 --> 00:14:53.967 Wichita State in Wichita. And in fact, after I accepted the position here 00:14:54.000 --> 00:15:00.635 , they made me an offer and that was a very tempting thing because that 00:15:00.668 --> 00:15:04.616 would have been very close to home and family. But ethically, I thought I 00:15:04.649 --> 00:15:08.407 couldn't back out on something I had already accepted and it turned out 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:13.157 well, that we stayed with our initial offer and acceptance. So when did 00:15:13.190 --> 00:15:18.356 you actually come to in August of 1967? 00:15:18.389 --> 00:15:24.057 But it was a lot different than January when yes, it was, we rented a U 00:15:24.090 --> 00:15:29.755 haul truck without air conditioning and we came down to got as far as 00:15:29.788 --> 00:15:34.086 Holbrook and they recommended we just turn south and cut across and come 00:15:34.119 --> 00:15:39.807 on down through Payson. So we did. And as we came down the hill, it kept 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:44.167 getting hotter and hotter and hotter. And my wife looked over at me and 00:15:44.200 --> 00:15:50.427 she said, where are you taking me? Because it was well over 100 degrees 00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:55.667 that day. When we arrived here, 00:15:55.700 --> 00:16:00.696 it was hot and humid that day being hot and humid. Well, we were, we were 00:16:00.729 --> 00:16:06.407 kind of fortunate because we put an ad in the paper here and we told who 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:11.946 we were and we were looking for a place to live and a faculty member from 00:16:11.979 --> 00:16:19.287 ASU called us and he and his wife rented their home to us sight unseen. 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:23.625 And so when we arrived, they were gone, they had gone on sabbatical and 00:16:23.658 --> 00:16:27.746 they left the key with the neighbor and we picked up the key and rented 00:16:27.779 --> 00:16:31.116 their house. It had a pool. And so we thought that was kind of nice. 00:16:31.149 --> 00:16:34.236 Although we realized after a while that cleaning the pool wasn't much fun. 00:16:34.269 --> 00:16:38.547 Back in those days, there weren't automatic pool cleaners and things. So 00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:43.057 we had a place to live immediately when we got here, 00:16:43.090 --> 00:16:48.236 it was in North Tempe. And then we started looking for a home and we found 00:16:48.269 --> 00:16:52.467 a home on Loyola which is just north of southern, off of rural. And I 00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:55.616 remember at that time, my wife asking me, are you sure you want to live 00:16:55.649 --> 00:16:58.177 this far out? 00:16:58.210 --> 00:17:03.086 Because it was anything south of us was pretty well agricultural land and 00:17:03.119 --> 00:17:06.736 undeveloped. And so she said this is a long ways. And I said, well, it's 00:17:06.769 --> 00:17:09.325 only a little over two miles from the university. And she said, well, I'd 00:17:09.358 --> 00:17:12.865 be ok. 00:17:12.898 --> 00:17:17.365 We had two Children. Our first daughter was born in 69 and her second 00:17:17.398 --> 00:17:22.065 daughter in 72. So they're both Arizona natives and now I have six 00:17:22.098 --> 00:17:24.347 grandchildren. 00:17:24.380 --> 00:17:29.647 Didn't have little Children on that first trip out. No. No, that's right. 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:34.887 So, what was your first position? What were you doing at when I came here 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:39.467 as an assistant professor in the Department of Economics? And so that's 00:17:39.500 --> 00:17:44.736 where I started out. And what were you doing as I was teaching, I think at 00:17:44.769 --> 00:17:52.476 that time we taught 12 hours, four courses. And they had known that I had 00:17:52.509 --> 00:18:00.097 taught before. And so they gave me some theory courses to teach at the 00:18:00.130 --> 00:18:03.436 upper division. But then they also gave me a couple introductory courses 00:18:03.469 --> 00:18:10.916 that were down in what's now was known as the ASB building. They were long 00:18:10.949 --> 00:18:13.166 narrow 00:18:13.199 --> 00:18:19.555 classrooms that kind of were elevated as you went toward the back. And um 00:18:19.588 --> 00:18:24.535 I think they about 150 some students, but the acoustics in the room were 00:18:24.568 --> 00:18:29.426 absolutely awful. It was like talking into a barrel and of course, you had 00:18:29.459 --> 00:18:33.535 a microphone, but at that time, we didn't have wireless mics. So you had 00:18:33.568 --> 00:18:36.565 to make sure you turn the same way each time. Otherwise you get wrapped up 00:18:36.598 --> 00:18:43.397 in the cord. It was quite an experience, but it was good. 00:18:43.430 --> 00:18:48.706 Your office in that same building. Yes. At that time, we were in a large 00:18:48.739 --> 00:18:53.575 classroom that had been divided into offices. So the walls went about half 00:18:53.608 --> 00:18:57.726 way through the ceiling. So anytime anybody else was interviewing a 00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:00.335 student while you were right in the midst of it, whether you wanted to be 00:19:00.368 --> 00:19:02.476 or not. 00:19:02.509 --> 00:19:08.026 How was the economics department? It was the Department of Economics in 00:19:08.059 --> 00:19:12.627 the college? Business. And I would guess I didn't go back and count, but 00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:18.506 we probably had about 12 or 13 members of the faculty at that time. 00:19:18.539 --> 00:19:23.857 Mhm. What, what was a su like you mentioned your building? But what was a 00:19:23.890 --> 00:19:29.236 su in general like, well, um 00:19:29.269 --> 00:19:35.936 Goodwin Stadium was still here at that time. The football stadium that now 00:19:35.969 --> 00:19:43.857 exists had the two sides without the end zone enclosed, 00:19:43.890 --> 00:19:50.717 the classrooms were fairly old needing improvement. And of course, it was 00:19:50.750 --> 00:19:53.637 only a couple years after that, that they built what was in the new 00:19:53.670 --> 00:20:00.436 business building and then in 71 then they added on to that building. So 00:20:00.469 --> 00:20:06.805 the first three floors were built, I guess it must have finished about 69. 00:20:06.838 --> 00:20:12.196 And um so we had nice classrooms in that building. It was a wonderful 00:20:12.229 --> 00:20:17.117 place to teach. It was quite an improvement. Overall. The university was 00:20:17.150 --> 00:20:22.436 probably about 15,000 at that time in Round Numbers, City of Tempe was 00:20:22.469 --> 00:20:28.075 probably 50,000, something like that. 00:20:28.108 --> 00:20:33.815 Who was it from the department that hired you? Well, John Cochran hired me. 00:20:33.848 --> 00:20:37.266 But then when I came here, Martin Ferris had become chairman of the 00:20:37.299 --> 00:20:41.526 department by that time, and Glenn Overman was the Dean of the Business 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:47.676 College at that time. And Homer Derm was president. 00:20:47.709 --> 00:20:52.256 That was about the time of some of the Vietnam war protests. 00:20:52.289 --> 00:20:59.717 Yes, it was. Well, I became an assistant dean in 1969 and I went to the A 00:20:59.750 --> 00:21:05.656 ASB meetings in San Francisco with, with the dean, I was assistant dean at 00:21:05.689 --> 00:21:10.726 that time. And I remember we were talking with another dean and he was 00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:18.759 describing how the students had brought in a bucket of chemicals and they 00:21:19.269 --> 00:21:23.516 were tempted to throw it not here, but they were tempted to throw the 00:21:23.549 --> 00:21:28.055 chemicals on the floor. And he remembered how he told us how he and 00:21:28.088 --> 00:21:32.565 several other faculty members locked arms and finally got them to leave 00:21:32.598 --> 00:21:37.857 the building. And so I came back early from that with that vivid memory in 00:21:37.890 --> 00:21:42.906 mind and I came back early and the dean stayed on for the rest of the 00:21:42.939 --> 00:21:49.266 meeting. And sure enough a day or two after I got back, a group of, I 00:21:49.299 --> 00:21:53.406 think it was mainly high school students and others that decided they were 00:21:53.439 --> 00:21:58.276 going to march through our building. And so I decided that I would go with 00:21:58.309 --> 00:22:02.387 them and try to keep them from bothering the students in the classroom. 00:22:02.420 --> 00:22:07.276 And so they opened a couple of classroom doors and I told them, I said, 00:22:07.309 --> 00:22:10.877 you can't do that. I didn't have the authority to stop them. But I told 00:22:10.910 --> 00:22:14.166 them, I said, you can't do that. And sure enough, they listened to me and 00:22:14.199 --> 00:22:18.545 then they went on down the hall and they didn't do any damage or anything. 00:22:18.578 --> 00:22:22.986 That's about the only incident that we had in the business building. I 00:22:23.019 --> 00:22:26.785 know there were a few protests on campus but I think by and large a issue 00:22:26.818 --> 00:22:29.726 is fairly calm during that whole time period. Relative to a lot of other 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:35.107 places in the United States. Why were they targeting? 00:22:35.140 --> 00:22:38.666 I don't know that they targeted the College of Business. It happened to be 00:22:38.699 --> 00:22:41.857 located at the south end of campus. And if they entered the campus from 00:22:41.890 --> 00:22:44.555 that end, it was one of the first buildings they came to, I don't think 00:22:44.588 --> 00:22:48.696 there was any targeting, taking place at that time. I was going to UCL A 00:22:48.729 --> 00:22:54.016 and they, the Bank of America was a, oh, really? 00:22:54.049 --> 00:22:59.996 I don't know what I think for some of them it was just a lark just to get 00:23:00.029 --> 00:23:07.766 out and do something exciting. 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:11.867 Was the president? Do you remember? What was he like? Well, he was a very 00:23:11.900 --> 00:23:16.285 soft spoken person as a young assistant professor. I didn't get the chance 00:23:16.318 --> 00:23:20.387 to know him as well as some of the others. I'm sure did, but he was very 00:23:20.420 --> 00:23:25.446 soft spoken and serious. And like I said, I didn't have a lot of personal 00:23:25.479 --> 00:23:29.676 contact with him as a new assistant professor just coming to campus. I 00:23:29.709 --> 00:23:32.906 know I heard stories that he and his wife would invite people to come to 00:23:32.939 --> 00:23:36.986 their home on a Sunday evening. Sat around on the piano and sing and 00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:42.055 things like that, but I never was part of that group. 00:23:42.088 --> 00:23:45.506 You moved up pretty quickly 00:23:45.539 --> 00:23:50.627 to the, well, I did, I was kind of surprised by it myself. In fact, the 00:23:50.660 --> 00:23:54.476 dean had talked to me even before I finished the dissertation, I finished 00:23:54.509 --> 00:24:00.706 it. And I defended in the spring of 1969 after being here a year and a 00:24:00.739 --> 00:24:05.776 half, a little over and he encouraged me. He said, get that dissertation 00:24:05.809 --> 00:24:11.065 finished. He said, I've got some things in mind for you. And sure enough, 00:24:11.098 --> 00:24:15.506 the minute that was done and I had the phd in hand, he offered me the 00:24:15.539 --> 00:24:20.766 position for assistant dean in the college and I was only 29 years old, I 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:25.016 thought, well, I don't know if I should be doing this or not, but it was a 00:24:25.049 --> 00:24:29.637 good learning experience and enjoyed the experience there. I stayed on in 00:24:29.670 --> 00:24:35.607 the dean's office for 10 years until 79. And I had a lot of different 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:39.246 responsibilities during that time, primarily 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:43.416 managing the graduate programs, started with the assistant dean for 00:24:43.449 --> 00:24:48.226 undergraduate studies and then became assistant dean for graduate studies. 00:24:48.259 --> 00:24:53.367 And then I think it was about 1975. He made me associate dean and I felt 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:57.335 that was a nice promotion as well. Did you get a nice raise to go from 00:24:57.368 --> 00:25:01.847 being an assistant professor to an, well, I get to go to a fiscal contract 00:25:01.880 --> 00:25:05.035 rather than an academic contract. So, what they did is they took your 00:25:05.068 --> 00:25:10.877 contract and gave you 12 10th of what that was. And then I think I 00:25:10.910 --> 00:25:15.107 probably got some decent raises during the time period because he worked 00:25:15.140 --> 00:25:17.656 me pretty hard. 00:25:17.689 --> 00:25:21.585 Do you remember what the salaries were like back then? Yes, I came here 00:25:21.618 --> 00:25:28.387 for 10,500. That was my beginning salary. The issue, which I thought at 00:25:28.420 --> 00:25:32.436 that time was a lot of money because as an undergraduate I had worked in 00:25:32.469 --> 00:25:37.696 the business office at college mcpherson College and I got a dollar an 00:25:37.729 --> 00:25:44.686 hour there. And so to come out here and earn $10,500 I thought, I told my 00:25:44.719 --> 00:25:48.726 wife, I said, if we could just continue living at the level, we lived as 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:51.526 graduate students for about two years. I said we could even put some money 00:25:51.559 --> 00:25:58.127 away at that salary didn't happen. We bought a home as everybody else did 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:03.085 and had Children and had Children that, that changed everything as well. 00:26:03.118 --> 00:26:08.565 Mhm. What was the department like when you got here? You talked about how 00:26:08.598 --> 00:26:16.075 big it was? Well, there were a group of very, very nice colleagues here 00:26:16.108 --> 00:26:23.186 and, um, they were all kind of a good team. Everybody worked together some 00:26:23.219 --> 00:26:29.647 economics departments. There's a lot of dissension and debate about what 00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:33.575 kind of economic theories you believe in and all that. But I didn't see 00:26:33.608 --> 00:26:37.506 any of that here. It was really a nice team effort. They all worked 00:26:37.539 --> 00:26:43.416 together and there was a lot of collaboration among faculty. 00:26:43.449 --> 00:26:48.035 Then I left the department and still continued teaching one course each 00:26:48.068 --> 00:26:52.446 semester while I was assistant dean. So I still kept some contact with the 00:26:52.479 --> 00:26:57.229 department but not as close as if I had stayed in the department full time. 00:27:00.588 --> 00:27:02.588 The dean insisted on it. And the busiest part of being assistant dean or 00:27:06.509 --> 00:27:09.956 the most time consuming was that we were interviewing so many faculty 00:27:09.989 --> 00:27:13.956 members, we were going through a growth spurt during the seventies. It was 00:27:13.989 --> 00:27:20.627 just unbelievable. We probably went from in round numbers probably 4000 to 00:27:20.660 --> 00:27:25.795 10,000 students during that time period. So we were hiring faculty very, 00:27:25.828 --> 00:27:33.176 very quickly. And Dean Overman insisted that I interview all the faculty 00:27:33.209 --> 00:27:37.196 members of all the departments that came in for interviews. And so I would 00:27:37.229 --> 00:27:41.617 spend countless hours not only interviewing them, but then of course, 00:27:41.650 --> 00:27:45.276 there were receptions almost every evening. It seemed like for the 00:27:45.309 --> 00:27:51.315 visiting people. So it was a very busy time. It was during that time that 00:27:51.348 --> 00:27:57.967 we hired Lonnie Ostrom. And so Lonnie worked with me in the dean's office 00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:01.936 for a good number of years and that was a great experience, a wonderful 00:28:01.969 --> 00:28:06.696 guy to work with. We had a really great relationship. 00:28:06.729 --> 00:28:14.065 When did you interview them one at a time? Well, the committees did, but 00:28:14.098 --> 00:28:17.217 the dean at that time insisted that all the department chairs interview 00:28:17.250 --> 00:28:20.726 all faculty from all departments. I remember when I came out for an 00:28:20.759 --> 00:28:26.285 interview, I thought it was an endurance contest because I had to go talk 00:28:26.318 --> 00:28:29.486 to every department chair all the way from management and marketing and 00:28:29.519 --> 00:28:35.936 finance to whatever. And then also there was a committee uh in the 00:28:35.969 --> 00:28:39.946 department and then, uh and then of course, you interviewed the dean and 00:28:39.979 --> 00:28:45.035 all the associate deans and that, so it was kind of an endurance contest. 00:28:45.068 --> 00:28:50.857 People held up pretty well. We knew they had a lot of depth. 00:28:50.890 --> 00:28:54.526 Did you all get together and compare notes on it? Oh, yes. After the, 00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:58.476 after the interviews in, there was a meeting in the Dean's Council where 00:28:58.509 --> 00:29:04.256 we would all go in and everybody would share their insights and uh and 00:29:04.289 --> 00:29:08.867 then a decision would be made by the dean and the department chair. Well, 00:29:08.900 --> 00:29:12.986 tell me about hiring Lonnie Ostrom. How did that come about? Well, we were 00:29:13.019 --> 00:29:16.835 looking for another person and he was actually hired by the marketing 00:29:16.868 --> 00:29:21.607 department and then 00:29:21.640 --> 00:29:26.246 he interviewed very well and I think we were also looking for another 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:32.266 assistant dean at that point. And so Lonnie was the one that was chosen 00:29:32.299 --> 00:29:35.367 and it was a good choice. 00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:39.506 What do you remember what it was about him that impressed you? I think 00:29:39.539 --> 00:29:42.617 Lonnie's got an unbelievable personality. 00:29:42.650 --> 00:29:45.325 I think his academic record was strong as well. But I think his 00:29:45.358 --> 00:29:49.325 personality probably was one of the big things that encouraged us to bring 00:29:49.358 --> 00:29:51.717 him aboard. 00:29:51.750 --> 00:29:58.085 He just works so well with people and he just had a knack of saying the 00:29:58.118 --> 00:30:02.666 right thing and treating people with respect. And that's what we were 00:30:02.699 --> 00:30:06.325 looking for in the dean's office. We wanted people that could meet the 00:30:06.358 --> 00:30:14.085 prospective students and talk to them and handle them. Well, 00:30:14.118 --> 00:30:18.166 so you say you stayed in the dean's office for about 10 years. Where did 00:30:18.199 --> 00:30:24.016 you go from there? Well, from there, I went to the Provost office, Paige 00:30:24.049 --> 00:30:27.986 Mulholland was Provost at the time and he was looking for an assistant 00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:32.717 Provost. And at that time, I was looking at the possibility of 00:30:32.750 --> 00:30:37.045 interviewing for a deanship somewhere. And then that opportunity came and 00:30:37.078 --> 00:30:40.686 I thought, well, gee this is a great chance to do something in the 00:30:40.719 --> 00:30:44.785 university administration here rather than having to uproot the family and 00:30:44.818 --> 00:30:48.026 move somewhere else. So 00:30:48.059 --> 00:30:52.706 fortunately, I guess page decided that I was the one that he wanted. And 00:30:52.739 --> 00:30:58.516 so he hired me to be his assistant Provost back at that time. What did you 00:30:58.549 --> 00:31:06.006 do as an assistant Provost? He gave me responsibilities at that time with 00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:12.367 the personnel committees and handling the promotions and tenure things of 00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:16.035 that type. And then later I moved over into the budget area because of my 00:31:16.068 --> 00:31:23.305 economics background, I guess. So he really was, he was the kind that 00:31:23.338 --> 00:31:30.585 allowed me to do whatever I wanted to do. He was a good man to work with 00:31:30.618 --> 00:31:36.357 budgets don't sound like much fun. Did you choose to do that? Well, yeah, 00:31:36.390 --> 00:31:41.107 I kind of enjoyed that part actually because I, I don't know, I guess I 00:31:41.140 --> 00:31:46.607 enjoyed working with numbers and doing planning and things like that. So, 00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:50.117 allocating resources and trying to find a fair way to allocate them was 00:31:50.150 --> 00:31:58.150 always a good challenge. So, I enjoyed doing that as well. 00:31:59.140 --> 00:32:04.607 When I first came to the provost office, there were very few computers. In 00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:10.065 fact, I had, I had been editor of our school newspaper when I was in high 00:32:10.098 --> 00:32:14.217 school. And so I knew how to type and all that. So when I went to the 00:32:14.250 --> 00:32:19.726 Provost office, I took an electric IBM typewriter with me and I would sit 00:32:19.759 --> 00:32:24.166 down and type out notes real quickly and people said you're supposed to 00:32:24.199 --> 00:32:27.246 dictate things and give them to a secretary to do. And I said, well, I 00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.016 said, I'll do that with letters and things. I said, but quick notes, I 00:32:30.049 --> 00:32:34.906 said I can do it faster and just hand it to you and be done with it. So 00:32:34.939 --> 00:32:38.967 there weren't very many computers. And then 00:32:39.000 --> 00:32:42.416 Jerry Gold Fter was the lady that I hired to be my administrative 00:32:42.449 --> 00:32:47.486 assistant. And we got her a memory typewriter and she liked that very much 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:51.946 thought that was really a great thing because you could actually type some 00:32:51.979 --> 00:32:57.387 things into memory and then it would type them back. But then it was 00:32:57.420 --> 00:33:01.526 probably about four years later than that, probably about the mid 00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:03.575 seventies 00:33:03.608 --> 00:33:07.117 that we actually began to get computers and I adapted immediately to that 00:33:07.150 --> 00:33:10.575 . I love computers because I already had the keyboard skills. So it was 00:33:10.608 --> 00:33:14.717 easy to make that transition. So at the time I moved to the provost office 00:33:14.750 --> 00:33:19.516 , there were very few, there were very few personal computers. There were 00:33:19.549 --> 00:33:22.976 , of course, the big machines, 00:33:23.009 --> 00:33:26.206 maybe I should back up a minute and tell you about that when we built the 00:33:26.239 --> 00:33:31.575 business building, one of the things that we did was we put in some large 00:33:31.608 --> 00:33:36.897 , some big glass windows and we set the computers behind that. And that 00:33:36.930 --> 00:33:40.897 way when the parents came to visit, they could see that we were doing 00:33:40.930 --> 00:33:44.967 computers and had the computer age and they were the big vacuum tube types 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:48.436 and that whole room full of computers would do less than what one laptop 00:33:48.469 --> 00:33:56.035 would do today. Just phenomenal. The change that has occurred, 00:33:56.068 --> 00:34:00.916 the big tapes and the punch cards. 00:34:00.949 --> 00:34:06.295 That's right. It had to be climate controlled and everything. And so it 00:34:06.328 --> 00:34:09.646 was, it was kind of the showcase when people would come to visit the 00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:11.845 college business. They would see, not only that, but they'd see the 00:34:11.878 --> 00:34:17.175 beautiful classrooms because the, the dean back at that time had decided 00:34:17.208 --> 00:34:20.827 that if the state could build the building, then he would get people to 00:34:20.860 --> 00:34:24.385 furnish all the classrooms. So virtually every classroom in the building 00:34:24.418 --> 00:34:30.695 was sponsored by somebody and they had carpeting and they had U shaped 00:34:30.728 --> 00:34:34.577 desks where the students would set. So when you're teaching, you could 00:34:34.610 --> 00:34:37.365 walk right up in and only have about three or four rows deep even though 00:34:37.398 --> 00:34:43.916 you had 50 people in the room. So it was a nice environment to teach in. I 00:34:43.949 --> 00:34:49.226 look. So going back to, you know, you're working as the, the Vice Provost 00:34:49.259 --> 00:34:56.695 for budgets. Um was that a period where the budgets were growing? 00:34:56.728 --> 00:35:01.046 Well, that was always one of the challenges because we always had to grow 00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:05.736 before we could get the resources. So we were always behind in terms of 00:35:05.769 --> 00:35:09.086 getting the resources 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:13.905 over the 12 years that I was in the Provost office in a minute, I should 00:35:13.938 --> 00:35:18.756 back up and tell you what progress got me up to that point. But in the 12 00:35:18.789 --> 00:35:24.155 years that I was there, we had reverts, they were called for about 10 of 00:35:24.188 --> 00:35:29.497 those 12 years. And what would happen would be that the legislature would 00:35:29.530 --> 00:35:34.206 always vote last on the budget for higher education. And if they didn't 00:35:34.239 --> 00:35:40.747 have enough resources, then the J LBC staff would always overestimate the 00:35:40.780 --> 00:35:43.967 amount of tuition revenue that we were going to get in order to make up 00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.506 for the appropriation that we were supposed to get knowing full well that 00:35:47.539 --> 00:35:51.905 we would never get it. And so when we didn't have as much money coming in 00:35:51.938 --> 00:35:56.227 from tuition and the legislature hadn't appropriated as much as what we 00:35:56.260 --> 00:36:01.517 thought they were going to or what they should have in my opinion. Then 00:36:01.550 --> 00:36:05.287 about mid year, we had what was called a revert and we'd have to go back 00:36:05.320 --> 00:36:10.635 and cut budgets. And some years we had to cut as much as $10 million back 00:36:10.668 --> 00:36:14.227 from the budget. Well, by the time you get to the middle of the year, it 00:36:14.260 --> 00:36:18.227 was very difficult for us to cut the budgets back because commitments had 00:36:18.260 --> 00:36:21.506 been made for all year long, the faculty had been hired, commitments had 00:36:21.539 --> 00:36:26.106 been made to faculty associates, the students were there and that was one 00:36:26.139 --> 00:36:30.186 of the greatest challenges that we had, having to continually hold back 00:36:30.219 --> 00:36:36.626 resources. So finally, toward the end of that period, we began to withhold 00:36:36.659 --> 00:36:39.876 some of the resources in anticipation of the reverts that we thought were 00:36:39.909 --> 00:36:43.405 inevitable. So it didn't make such a negative impact on the departments to 00:36:43.438 --> 00:36:48.256 try to come up with money at the last minute, 00:36:48.289 --> 00:36:53.126 which which years were those 00:36:53.159 --> 00:36:57.557 ok? Between 1979 and 1991 00:36:57.590 --> 00:37:00.916 there were reverts I believe for about 10 out of those 12 years that I was 00:37:00.949 --> 00:37:04.956 in the promos office 00:37:04.989 --> 00:37:12.046 and talk about how well I kept getting these opportunities to do things 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:15.385 and got additional challenges. 00:37:15.418 --> 00:37:18.956 Let me just kind of chronologically see if I can remember what happened. 00:37:18.989 --> 00:37:26.256 But 79 Paige Mulholland hired me to be his assistant Provost. And then in 00:37:26.289 --> 00:37:30.626 81 he became 00:37:30.659 --> 00:37:34.095 Executive Vice President I should say. And then they reorganized and 00:37:34.128 --> 00:37:37.807 instead of Provost's office, they changed it back to an academic VP office. 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:45.840 And so in 1981 and 82 I was the uh acting uh academic VP. And so I held 00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:52.066 that position until 82. And then they hired Jack Kinzinger 00:37:52.099 --> 00:37:59.456 as academic VP. And then I worked with him until 1987. 00:37:59.489 --> 00:38:06.135 And in 87 I was a loan executive to the Arizona border regions. So I got a 00:38:06.168 --> 00:38:12.936 chance to work at the board level and work with all three institutions. 00:38:12.969 --> 00:38:20.396 Then I came back at the end of that time period and resumed the vice 00:38:20.429 --> 00:38:27.217 Provosts role. And then Dick Peck came and in between there, Roland Hayden 00:38:27.250 --> 00:38:34.675 was acting VP for a time and I was his associate VP and then Dick Peck was 00:38:34.708 --> 00:38:39.845 hired as Provost and I thoroughly enjoyed working with Dick Peck. He was 00:38:39.878 --> 00:38:47.878 just a wonderful man to work with a me. But um then um it would have been 00:38:48.489 --> 00:38:55.195 in July of 89 until January of 90. Dick was the acting president because 00:38:55.228 --> 00:39:03.228 we were between Russ Nelson and Lady Co and so since Dick was the acting 00:39:04.030 --> 00:39:09.885 president during that time, I was the interim provost and then Dick came 00:39:09.918 --> 00:39:15.606 back to the office after Lady was hired and, but the following May, he 00:39:15.639 --> 00:39:20.945 left to go to be president of the University of New Mexico. And so I was 00:39:20.978 --> 00:39:28.978 made interim Provost. Then again, for the time period from May 00:39:29.648 --> 00:39:36.967 May of 90 until August of 91. And the interesting thing that happened 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:41.135 during that time is that I was the interim provost. And then in February 00:39:41.168 --> 00:39:46.046 of 91 lady core had a heart attack. And so they made me acting president 00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:50.787 as well. So I was kind of wearing a couple of acting hats at one time and 00:39:50.820 --> 00:39:56.436 then lady was able to come back and he was out from February to April as I 00:39:56.469 --> 00:40:01.396 recall. And so he was able to return and resume his duties at that time. 00:40:01.429 --> 00:40:07.606 And then I continued on as interim promos until August when they hired 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:13.026 Milton Glick at that time, then I went back to teaching all those 00:40:13.059 --> 00:40:17.695 positions. Did you ever try to get the full position? Yes, I applied for 00:40:17.728 --> 00:40:20.945 it, but it seemed that ASU had a tendency to want to hire people from the 00:40:20.978 --> 00:40:28.978 outside in those kind of roles. And so I was, I was always good acting. 00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:37.227 Well, it was in a way, but I also understood the motivation institutions 00:40:37.260 --> 00:40:40.827 usually like to hire some of their leadership roles from outside rather 00:40:40.860 --> 00:40:46.577 than grow their own. I'm not sure why, but that's the way it was 00:40:46.610 --> 00:40:52.655 um, all that time at the Provost office. And where was, was that located? 00:40:52.688 --> 00:40:56.126 Well, we were on the second floor of the administration building during 00:40:56.159 --> 00:41:01.307 that whole time period. 00:41:01.340 --> 00:41:07.316 I wasn't required to, but I did go over and taught a course periodically 00:41:07.349 --> 00:41:12.396 just so that I could keep my hand in my academic area. But I wasn't 00:41:12.429 --> 00:41:15.956 required to teach classes. I was so busy over there that it was a full 00:41:15.989 --> 00:41:19.816 time job. So, 00:41:19.849 --> 00:41:24.345 being a loan to the regions. 00:41:24.378 --> 00:41:29.416 Well, it was a new program they had started and I was the first one and 00:41:29.449 --> 00:41:35.146 they wanted to bring some people from the campuses occasionally to do 00:41:35.179 --> 00:41:40.655 special projects and things of that type. And it was an opportunity to 00:41:40.688 --> 00:41:44.916 learn more about all three campuses and how the board operated. And I had 00:41:44.949 --> 00:41:50.385 attended board meetings in my role as a vice provost anyway, so I wasn't 00:41:50.418 --> 00:41:53.767 unfamiliar with the board and the people at the board office knew me. And 00:41:53.800 --> 00:42:00.307 so they invited me to come down and spend about nine months with them. 00:42:00.340 --> 00:42:03.986 It was full time during that time, I was given release time from the 00:42:04.019 --> 00:42:10.615 campus and I commuted downtown Phoenix all the time. And what did you 00:42:10.648 --> 00:42:16.577 learn about the border regions from being inside sort of? Uh Well, I 00:42:16.610 --> 00:42:20.267 learned that there was a lot of politics. 00:42:20.300 --> 00:42:25.236 I learned that there was a large influence from the University of Arizona 00:42:25.269 --> 00:42:30.095 on a number of the board members. And there were some board members that I 00:42:30.128 --> 00:42:35.695 thought were really so committed to the U of A that they really didn't pay 00:42:35.728 --> 00:42:39.717 too much attention to the other two campuses. Maybe that's being a bit too 00:42:39.750 --> 00:42:44.416 blunt, but that's the honest answer. I thought there were always more 00:42:44.449 --> 00:42:47.925 board members that were affiliated with the U of A than there were with. 00:42:47.958 --> 00:42:52.626 Or I think you probably knew that before. I knew that before I went there. 00:42:52.659 --> 00:42:58.186 Yes. Yes. Yes. Just the passing. 00:42:58.219 --> 00:43:01.956 Was there anything else you learned from being inside a different 00:43:01.989 --> 00:43:06.095 perspective? Well, it did give you a different perspective on things 00:43:06.128 --> 00:43:10.936 because you found that you were being a supporter of all three 00:43:10.969 --> 00:43:14.037 institutions, not one. And of course, so much of my career up to that 00:43:14.070 --> 00:43:18.416 point had all been an issue. So it was a broadening experience for me. And 00:43:18.449 --> 00:43:23.077 it really helped me to further realize that students in Arizona have a 00:43:23.110 --> 00:43:26.155 wonderful opportunity because we have three great campuses. It's not just 00:43:26.188 --> 00:43:29.967 one or two, but there are three different ones with three slightly 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.736 different missions. So it's a great opportunity for people from Arizona to 00:43:34.769 --> 00:43:37.586 send their Children. They don't have to go somewhere else to get a good 00:43:37.619 --> 00:43:40.606 education. It's right here. 00:43:40.639 --> 00:43:46.057 Did you learn a little bit about the relationship of the legislature? Yes 00:43:46.090 --> 00:43:50.477 , I did. And one of the big issues back at that time was that we were 00:43:50.510 --> 00:43:57.135 being pressed politically and otherwise by the University of Phoenix to 00:43:57.168 --> 00:44:02.635 accept all of their credits and things like that. And that was a problem 00:44:02.668 --> 00:44:06.807 for our faculty, for our administration and all of that. So we finally 00:44:06.840 --> 00:44:11.706 decided that we would evaluate students on a course by course basis. And 00:44:11.739 --> 00:44:14.537 try to find out what they had really done or not done in the courses that 00:44:14.570 --> 00:44:17.497 they had taken there. There was a lot of political pressure at that time. 00:44:17.530 --> 00:44:22.236 From the University of Phoenix. Oh, they're advocates. What about the 00:44:22.269 --> 00:44:27.066 community colleges? Well, uh, we had a good relationship with the 00:44:27.099 --> 00:44:31.396 community colleges. Uh, we had, uh, we had worked 00:44:31.429 --> 00:44:35.106 articulation agreements with the community colleges for many, many years. 00:44:35.139 --> 00:44:39.356 In fact, even when I was back in the Business College, we would invite the 00:44:39.389 --> 00:44:45.236 community college, business leadership to come and talk about curriculum 00:44:45.269 --> 00:44:52.356 and things like that. So I felt that we've always been a good partner with 00:44:52.389 --> 00:44:56.517 the community colleges. What was it about the University of Phoenix that 00:44:56.550 --> 00:45:03.405 made them different? And you like to accept credit? Well, there were not 00:45:03.438 --> 00:45:08.066 the contact hours, they had no full time faculty. They hired people here 00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:12.296 and there to offer their courses. We felt there was a lack of quality 00:45:12.329 --> 00:45:19.046 control and that's probably all I should say. We just felt that they 00:45:19.079 --> 00:45:23.066 weren't up to the same standard as what we were requiring for our students 00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:27.256 to do. What about the regions themselves? Did you get to know some of 00:45:27.289 --> 00:45:35.289 those people? And the regents were very, very nice. I think they were very 00:45:36.199 --> 00:45:39.675 good to the board staff. 00:45:39.708 --> 00:45:43.997 They were very open and they'd have receptions and things at the board 00:45:44.030 --> 00:45:47.537 meetings and things like that. And most of them were just really fine 00:45:47.570 --> 00:45:53.405 people So, yeah, I enjoyed, enjoyed visiting with them as well. How do you 00:45:53.438 --> 00:45:56.845 feel about the, the whole system of how our universities are run by the 00:45:56.878 --> 00:46:04.376 regents and how the regents are appointed in? Well, the current system I 00:46:04.409 --> 00:46:08.456 think is a little bit political and I think from time to time we've seen 00:46:08.489 --> 00:46:13.706 some regions that have been appointed because of their support of 00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:18.017 politicians and things like that. So any time you have a single board of 00:46:18.050 --> 00:46:23.186 regents that's appointed by the governor, you're going to find that 00:46:23.219 --> 00:46:25.796 they're going to reward some of the people that have supported them and 00:46:25.829 --> 00:46:31.706 that sort of thing. But that's just the real world. I think a lot of times 00:46:31.739 --> 00:46:36.066 some of the regents may have come to the border regions with a particular 00:46:36.099 --> 00:46:39.945 agenda in mind. But I think after they got there and they got involved, 00:46:39.978 --> 00:46:45.606 they begin to feel the, the need to support higher education. And so I 00:46:45.639 --> 00:46:49.997 think most of them have turned out to be positive supporters of higher 00:46:50.030 --> 00:46:54.717 education. Most of them take that job. I think so. I think they take it 00:46:54.750 --> 00:46:57.566 quite seriously. 00:46:57.599 --> 00:47:02.175 What year was it that you were working at the border region? That would 00:47:02.208 --> 00:47:06.155 have been 1987. 00:47:06.188 --> 00:47:10.925 Molly Broad was the executive director at that time and Otis Elliott was 00:47:10.958 --> 00:47:18.958 the associate director and I worked with both of them. 00:47:21.719 --> 00:47:26.695 I don't believe me was an officer. I don't recall who the governor was. 00:47:26.728 --> 00:47:29.876 Wait a minute. That may have been. That was an exciting time politically 00:47:29.909 --> 00:47:34.635 as well. I was trying to remember what year that was, it all runs together 00:47:34.668 --> 00:47:38.706 after a few years. 00:47:38.739 --> 00:47:42.896 Ok. That would have been about right then. Yeah. Was Herman Janet on the 00:47:42.929 --> 00:47:47.885 board at that time. Yes, he was. In fact, one time we went to a meeting at 00:47:47.918 --> 00:47:53.316 the U of A and Herman invited us to ride in his private jet. Never got to 00:47:53.349 --> 00:47:59.557 Tucson so fast in my life. Yeah, that was my only opportunity to ride in a 00:47:59.590 --> 00:48:04.816 corporate type jet and it was quite an experience. It was quick. So you 00:48:04.849 --> 00:48:07.736 didn't really deal much with the governor or the governor's office. I 00:48:07.769 --> 00:48:12.675 didn't know I was more doing support, work inside the office and things 00:48:12.708 --> 00:48:15.506 like that. 00:48:15.539 --> 00:48:19.876 I noticed another thing it mentioned, I was looking through your volume of 00:48:19.909 --> 00:48:24.595 information here that you were in charge of summer sessions 00:48:24.628 --> 00:48:28.767 when I was in the Provost's office, Dennis Keegan was running the summer 00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:33.916 sessions and his office reported to me at that time. And another wonderful 00:48:33.949 --> 00:48:37.655 person. I mean, gosh, I just think of all the great people that I've had a 00:48:37.688 --> 00:48:42.845 chance to work with and Dennis is just such a positive person, great to 00:48:42.878 --> 00:48:49.796 work with always positive and ready to do whatever needed to be done. And 00:48:49.829 --> 00:48:53.006 the same as I mentioned, Lonnie Ostrom, the same way Matt Beth is the same 00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:57.626 way. I mean, they all just great folks to work with. Um, I was just 00:48:57.659 --> 00:49:03.095 interested, it seems like summer sessions were almost like a separate, 00:49:03.128 --> 00:49:08.396 they had to float on their own bottom financially. And so summer sessions 00:49:08.429 --> 00:49:14.706 had to generate enough support in order to pay the salaries for the 00:49:14.739 --> 00:49:19.666 faculty during the summers and the support monies and things like that. So 00:49:19.699 --> 00:49:23.717 , yes, they did have to support themselves but Dennis managed them very 00:49:23.750 --> 00:49:28.925 well and they did, in fact, occasionally we even had a profit from summer 00:49:28.958 --> 00:49:33.260 sessions which allowed us to do some other good works in the university. 00:49:36.128 --> 00:49:38.128 That was sort of a whole separate, run separately from all the other 00:49:39.409 --> 00:49:44.356 classes. Well, it was because if you had a regular academic contract as a 00:49:44.389 --> 00:49:48.477 professor, then if you took a summer appointment, then that was a separate 00:49:48.510 --> 00:49:52.695 contract just for that course or two courses, whatever you decided to 00:49:52.728 --> 00:49:59.115 teach. I remember the first year that I was here, we were very poor and I 00:49:59.148 --> 00:50:05.557 had the opportunity to teach a summer session. So I taught two courses 00:50:05.590 --> 00:50:10.557 each summer session, 25 week sessions back to back. And by the time that 00:50:10.590 --> 00:50:16.006 10 weeks was over, I was totally exhausted. It was because you met for 00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:19.655 several hours a day in each class in order to get in the contact hours 00:50:19.688 --> 00:50:24.767 that you needed to have for the class. It was very challenging. 00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:29.057 Has that changed or is it still done the same way? Well, I haven't been in 00:50:29.090 --> 00:50:33.135 the administration now since 1991. So, I don't know for sure what they're 00:50:33.168 --> 00:50:38.195 doing now, but I assume that they're still, they also have an eight week 00:50:38.228 --> 00:50:42.577 session. Now, I know that they didn't have before and I assume it's 00:50:42.610 --> 00:50:46.595 handled similar to that. People might think that in Arizona because it's 00:50:46.628 --> 00:50:49.327 so hot here in the summer that not many students would even want to go to 00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:54.467 school. It was surprising the number of students that wanted to catch up 00:50:54.500 --> 00:50:59.396 during the summer or get ahead during the summer and we would have 00:50:59.429 --> 00:51:05.646 enrollments of fairly, I don't know the numbers. Exactly. But I would 00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:10.017 guess maybe head count, maybe 1/4 of what you would have during the 00:51:10.050 --> 00:51:14.896 academic year or maybe 1/5. I thought it was pretty good enrollment in the 00:51:14.929 --> 00:51:18.115 summer and of course, for the faculty, it was nice if you taught in the 00:51:18.148 --> 00:51:20.586 summer because you could teach for five weeks and then you could be gone 00:51:20.619 --> 00:51:25.695 the other five weeks. I only did one summer session where I taught twice 00:51:25.728 --> 00:51:30.856 in the same summer. That was too much. 00:51:30.889 --> 00:51:35.845 Are there any special events that stand out for you during your career? Oh 00:51:35.878 --> 00:51:42.686 , wow. There are so many, uh, uh, we held all kinds of events in the 00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:45.467 College of Business 00:51:45.500 --> 00:51:51.026 when I was there. The university. Goodness, I can't even begin to count 00:51:51.059 --> 00:51:54.557 all the number of things that I went to every evening. It seemed like 00:51:54.590 --> 00:52:01.896 there was something I remember one thing when we first decided to offer 00:52:01.929 --> 00:52:06.077 some off campus courses. And Metro Center was a place where we offered 00:52:06.110 --> 00:52:10.057 some of the first courses before we had a West campus. And of course, we 00:52:10.090 --> 00:52:13.586 had a big opening celebration over there. And then I remember when we had 00:52:13.619 --> 00:52:16.057 the opening for the west campus, I went over there and I think all there 00:52:16.090 --> 00:52:21.956 was was a flagpole and a big white tent. And so we went over for the 00:52:21.989 --> 00:52:25.146 celebration that was during the time that Paige Mulholland was provost in 00:52:25.179 --> 00:52:28.296 the early eighties. 00:52:28.329 --> 00:52:35.126 And um I don't know, I've just been to so many commencements. I 00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:38.807 purchased a cap and gown many, many years ago and I think I've amortised 00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:44.456 it out because I went to three commencements every year, one in the fall, 00:52:44.489 --> 00:52:47.717 the spring and the summer. And so for all the years, I was in the Provosts 00:52:47.750 --> 00:52:54.186 office, I attended all the commencements all that time. It was busy. 00:52:54.219 --> 00:52:58.276 No, they don't. They stay the same. 00:52:58.309 --> 00:53:04.227 Were you involved at all? With the creation of? 00:53:04.260 --> 00:53:07.905 Well, I was involved somewhat in it but it was more in the president's 00:53:07.938 --> 00:53:15.276 office that was taking place and the provost at that time, but I helped 00:53:15.309 --> 00:53:21.175 provide some of the support and helped with some of the early curriculum 00:53:21.208 --> 00:53:25.787 when it was being offered essentially from our campus. Do you remember how 00:53:25.820 --> 00:53:30.126 it came about that? That it seemed like it came up kind of suddenly. Well 00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:35.546 , I think the people on the West Side had a very strong desire to have a 00:53:35.579 --> 00:53:42.256 presence over there. And when the land became available to ASU, there were 00:53:42.289 --> 00:53:47.626 a number of politicians that I think were really pushing as U to have a 00:53:47.659 --> 00:53:52.626 presence over there. And I think it was a good move. I really supported 00:53:52.659 --> 00:53:57.396 the idea because if you think about it, if a student from way over in the 00:53:57.429 --> 00:54:01.376 Northwest Valley is commuting over to U that's a long commute each day 00:54:01.409 --> 00:54:05.666 just to go to classes. So I thought it was great that we established the 00:54:05.699 --> 00:54:08.546 campus there, 00:54:08.579 --> 00:54:11.997 the College of Business get involved. 00:54:12.030 --> 00:54:15.445 They were offering some courses over there because at first when we 00:54:15.478 --> 00:54:19.486 started, we were doing just upper division because we didn't want to 00:54:19.519 --> 00:54:22.977 compete with the community colleges because they were very sensitive to 00:54:23.010 --> 00:54:27.675 that. So we just offered junior and senior level courses. So there was 00:54:27.708 --> 00:54:35.526 some involvement of most all the colleges in campus. 00:54:35.559 --> 00:54:41.876 You left the administrative area in 1991. What did you do after that? I 00:54:41.909 --> 00:54:44.896 went back to full time teaching in the economics department at that time. 00:54:44.929 --> 00:54:52.376 And the department had a policy of not having teaching assistants, a lot 00:54:52.409 --> 00:54:57.577 of teaching assistants teach the introductory classes. And so they asked 00:54:57.610 --> 00:55:01.115 me to teach some of those classes. I didn't mind standing in front of a 00:55:01.148 --> 00:55:06.526 large group. And so typically in a semester, I would teach maybe an upper 00:55:06.559 --> 00:55:10.717 division theory class and then a couple of large lecture sections and I 00:55:10.750 --> 00:55:18.750 taught over in Murdoch Hall where they seated about 450 students. And so I 00:55:19.239 --> 00:55:23.106 usually have a student of about 900 students. 00:55:23.139 --> 00:55:27.135 That was kind of a neat experience. The only thing I didn't like about it 00:55:27.168 --> 00:55:29.517 is that I wasn't able to get to know the students as well as I would have 00:55:29.550 --> 00:55:31.706 liked. 00:55:31.739 --> 00:55:35.026 You get to know some of them, some of the really good students that come 00:55:35.059 --> 00:55:39.445 into your office to clarify things and the other end of the spectrum, the 00:55:39.478 --> 00:55:42.945 ones that are in trouble. But the bulk of the students, you don't get a 00:55:42.978 --> 00:55:49.497 chance to know them. But, um, it was a good experience and I, I enjoyed 00:55:49.530 --> 00:55:56.057 teaching. Why did you leave the administrative area? Well, I had been in 00:55:56.090 --> 00:56:02.296 the provost office for 12 years and, um, as you asked earlier, I had, uh, 00:56:02.329 --> 00:56:06.296 been a candidate unsuccessfully for a couple of three times to get the 00:56:06.329 --> 00:56:12.115 provost position and it was time for a change. And I always did enjoy 00:56:12.148 --> 00:56:15.287 teaching people, always laugh when you say you're going back to your first 00:56:15.320 --> 00:56:20.376 love. And I'm not saying that's what I was doing necessarily, but my 00:56:20.409 --> 00:56:25.195 department welcomed me back and I was very pleased with the reception that 00:56:25.228 --> 00:56:31.195 I got when I came back. So it was time for a change in my career and I was 00:56:31.228 --> 00:56:34.336 ready to go back to that 00:56:34.369 --> 00:56:38.736 in fact, in 1995 1 of the thrills that I got is that I got the uh 00:56:38.769 --> 00:56:44.046 outstanding undergraduate teaching award. I, I thought that was uh kind of 00:56:44.079 --> 00:56:48.175 a, kind of a neat event after having been in administration all those 00:56:48.208 --> 00:56:52.517 years to come back and, uh, and then be recognized for, uh for, for 00:56:52.550 --> 00:56:58.037 something else. What is it that you like about teaching? Oh, I love the 00:56:58.070 --> 00:57:03.307 interaction with the students. Um, in fact, I was the advisor for Alpha 00:57:03.340 --> 00:57:08.546 Kappa Psi, uh, Lonnie Ostrom and I were co advisors back in the seventies 00:57:08.579 --> 00:57:13.126 for the, uh, professional Business Fraternity. And then after I returned 00:57:13.159 --> 00:57:16.217 to teaching, the students approached me again and asked me if I would be 00:57:16.250 --> 00:57:18.827 their advisor. And so I went back and was their advisor for a number of 00:57:18.860 --> 00:57:23.566 years after that, uh, just as a volunteer thing. But, uh, it, it's just 00:57:23.599 --> 00:57:27.945 evidence that I enjoyed being with students, enjoy working with them. Have 00:57:27.978 --> 00:57:32.606 you seen students change over the years? Well, yes, there have been some 00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:37.316 changes from time to time but I, I've generally found that the, um, but 00:57:37.349 --> 00:57:41.376 the business students were pretty serious about careers and things like 00:57:41.409 --> 00:57:45.865 that. So, uh, sure I was in this business, you know, through the sixties 00:57:45.898 --> 00:57:49.095 and, uh, the flower Children and all that sort of thing. But, uh, I, I 00:57:49.128 --> 00:57:52.845 really felt that, uh, most of the business students that I dealt with most 00:57:52.878 --> 00:57:56.135 of the time were were pretty serious about their education. They're fairly 00:57:56.168 --> 00:58:00.577 career oriented. So, yeah, there have been changes and faculty, there are 00:58:00.610 --> 00:58:06.356 changes too. I think back in the days when I first came here, you tended 00:58:06.389 --> 00:58:10.247 to ask the question, what can I do for the institution? And uh I feel that 00:58:10.280 --> 00:58:14.066 some of the younger faculty that have come more recently, uh asked the 00:58:14.099 --> 00:58:17.787 question indifferently and that is what can the institution do for me. So 00:58:17.820 --> 00:58:22.776 I've seen some changes over that time talking about the whole College of 00:58:22.809 --> 00:58:30.606 Business, the whole college seems like it's changed somewhat too. It has, 00:58:30.639 --> 00:58:37.925 it has taken on, I think more of a research orientation which has been 00:58:37.958 --> 00:58:42.967 good in terms of national publicity and the MB A program I think has 00:58:43.000 --> 00:58:48.186 gotten a lot of additional visibility nationally and internationally. So 00:58:48.219 --> 00:58:51.497 there have been a lot of changes, but most of them have been good quality 00:58:51.530 --> 00:58:55.717 changes for continuing improvement, 00:58:55.750 --> 00:59:01.686 more older students coming in not coming straight from college. We always 00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:04.396 had in the business college, we always had a lot of older students that 00:59:04.429 --> 00:59:10.345 came back at night. We ran a very large night MB A program during the days 00:59:10.378 --> 00:59:15.856 that I was there, that was even in the sixties and seventies. And we still 00:59:15.889 --> 00:59:20.066 see that the executive MB A program and others like that. So there's 00:59:20.099 --> 00:59:24.836 certainly a place for this returning student that wants to enhance his or 00:59:24.869 --> 00:59:28.186 her career 00:59:28.219 --> 00:59:32.287 promoting, they're doing more online and you don't even have to come to 00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:36.376 campus. Well, that's true. And I think the technology is wonderful. I 00:59:36.409 --> 00:59:41.037 think it's great. In fact, even when I was teaching the classes with 450 00:59:41.070 --> 00:59:46.385 students, I would put my lecture notes ahead of time up on the internet so 00:59:46.418 --> 00:59:49.497 the students could download them before they came to class. So they would 00:59:49.530 --> 00:59:52.327 not have to sit there and spend all their time copying down what I put up 00:59:52.360 --> 00:59:56.986 on the slides up on the screen, but instead they could fill in around that 00:59:57.019 --> 01:00:02.836 with the lecture notes. And so I think the technology is wonderful. It's 01:00:02.869 --> 01:00:07.635 amazing what you can do now. And I almost wish we'd had that when I began 01:00:07.668 --> 01:00:14.236 back in the sixties. Some people are actually teaching classes online. 01:00:14.269 --> 01:00:17.756 I haven't, I haven't actually taught online. That's an experience that I 01:00:17.789 --> 01:00:23.095 haven't had yet, but it would be an interesting thing to do. It kind of 01:00:23.128 --> 01:00:26.267 reminds me you were talking about the University of Phoenix. They 01:00:26.300 --> 01:00:31.175 pioneered in some of those they did. And I think it's become a lot more 01:00:31.208 --> 01:00:37.856 acceptable now than what it was back at that time. And I think there are a 01:00:37.889 --> 01:00:43.606 lot more quality controls now in terms of testing and things like that 01:00:43.639 --> 01:00:47.267 than what there might have been early on. 01:00:47.300 --> 01:00:52.876 What about the, the 10 the trend of uh the fundraising for the colleges? 01:00:52.909 --> 01:01:00.256 The, the business School now has a name, the $50 million donation. When 01:01:00.289 --> 01:01:06.276 did that start happening? Well, I think fundraising was taking place many 01:01:06.309 --> 01:01:11.595 , many years ago. It's just that it's now reached a new level. I think 01:01:11.628 --> 01:01:16.706 that back in the days I mentioned earlier when the at that time, new 01:01:16.739 --> 01:01:20.175 business building was built, that we had sponsored classrooms and things 01:01:20.208 --> 01:01:22.566 like that. 01:01:22.599 --> 01:01:28.526 And I think the level of requests and the level of support that 01:01:28.559 --> 01:01:32.606 fundraisers were asking for was much, much less in the past than what it 01:01:32.639 --> 01:01:36.436 has become more recently. And of course, there have been naming 01:01:36.469 --> 01:01:41.017 opportunities like the College of Law and the College of Business and 01:01:41.050 --> 01:01:47.336 Education and Engineering. And well, I think all but one of those came 01:01:47.369 --> 01:01:54.115 with a pretty significant financial donation to the campus. And how do you 01:01:54.148 --> 01:01:59.206 feel about that? I think anything we can do to get more funds to help 01:01:59.239 --> 01:02:07.239 education is ok and the state has had a difficult time 01:02:08.208 --> 01:02:13.506 maybe offering as much support as it can for higher education. And 01:02:13.539 --> 01:02:18.017 therefore, I think it's been incumbent on us to fill in that gap and to 01:02:18.050 --> 01:02:22.385 raise more funds. Unfortunately, some of the additional burden has been 01:02:22.418 --> 01:02:26.095 placed on the students because I think tuition in Arizona used to be one 01:02:26.128 --> 01:02:29.956 of the biggest bargains you can imagine particularly the in state tuition 01:02:29.989 --> 01:02:36.175 and now it's become much more expensive for students to go to school. So 01:02:36.208 --> 01:02:40.876 to the extent that the state couldn't provide that support, students have 01:02:40.909 --> 01:02:45.445 had to pick it up with higher tuition and we'll probably see more of that 01:02:45.478 --> 01:02:49.316 and we've been hearing a lot lately about the students that leave school 01:02:49.349 --> 01:02:57.349 with huge debts. Yes. Yes. That's a, that's a real problem. Do you think 01:02:57.648 --> 01:03:03.385 anything can be done about that or anything? Well, I don't anticipate that 01:03:03.418 --> 01:03:08.686 the state will start reducing tuition. I think the trend is there and it 01:03:08.719 --> 01:03:11.686 will probably continue to increase. 01:03:11.719 --> 01:03:16.506 Hopefully we can continue to find sources for some reasonable cost loans 01:03:16.539 --> 01:03:23.949 for students. But I think it will probably continue to cost more and more. 01:03:26.128 --> 01:03:28.128 Looking back. Do you think you would have been able to go to college if 01:03:28.699 --> 01:03:34.436 you'd had to take out loans? Well, I did take out loans for graduate 01:03:34.469 --> 01:03:39.695 school and we came here with some debt so I can relate to the students. 01:03:39.728 --> 01:03:42.956 The amount that I had dollar wise didn't sound like much, but at the time 01:03:42.989 --> 01:03:47.095 , it seemed like a lot to us. So it took us a few years to get out of debt 01:03:47.128 --> 01:03:53.557 back at that time, they had the National Defense student loan program and 01:03:53.590 --> 01:03:59.717 with that program, you could borrow funds and if you taught five years, 01:03:59.750 --> 01:04:05.595 you could get 10% of your debt forgiven for each of the five years. So 01:04:05.628 --> 01:04:09.905 half of the debt could be forgiven. In fact, when I was an undergraduate 01:04:09.938 --> 01:04:13.956 and I told you I worked in the business office there, I was in charge of 01:04:13.989 --> 01:04:18.195 monitoring those programs. The other interesting thing I did as an 01:04:18.228 --> 01:04:20.967 undergraduate is that I wrote out the checks for the faculty. They all had 01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:24.267 to be written by hand in that small college that I went to, I didn't have 01:04:24.300 --> 01:04:27.186 the authority to sign them, but I had to calculate all the checks and 01:04:27.219 --> 01:04:31.405 write out their payroll checks. So they all knew that I knew what they 01:04:31.438 --> 01:04:35.247 were getting paid 01:04:35.280 --> 01:04:39.497 as a student. It was. 01:04:39.530 --> 01:04:42.376 yeah, it seems like we're talking about trying to get more good quality 01:04:42.409 --> 01:04:45.247 teachers. Maybe that would, the forgiveness of the debt would be. Well, I 01:04:45.280 --> 01:04:50.595 think it was, I think it was a very, um, uh, very inventive program and I 01:04:50.628 --> 01:04:53.537 hope that we can come up with something like that to encourage people to 01:04:53.570 --> 01:04:57.916 go into teaching careers that was applicable, not just to college teaching 01:04:57.949 --> 01:05:03.079 , but people that went into high school and elementary teaching as well. 01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:07.000 Back at that time, they called it the National Defense Student loans. And 01:05:08.010 --> 01:05:11.967 then I think they changed it to National Direct Student Loans. They kept 01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:16.296 the same acronym but changed the name of, 01:05:16.329 --> 01:05:19.316 um, 01:05:19.349 --> 01:05:23.635 30 something daughter. She's still, 01:05:23.668 --> 01:05:28.186 I believe in it. And the students that go to private institutions, I mean 01:05:28.219 --> 01:05:33.356 , they come out with like $100,000 in debt and just think that's almost 01:05:33.389 --> 01:05:38.916 the price of a house just in debt that they're paying off 01:05:38.949 --> 01:05:45.456 the interest rate. It, yes, it does. Yes, it does. 01:05:45.489 --> 01:05:50.477 What, what is it that the time that you were here at the su um, when did 01:05:50.510 --> 01:05:54.586 you retire actually? Are you, you still teaching? No, I'm retired. I, uh, 01:05:54.619 --> 01:05:58.796 I, I retired in May of 2004. 01:05:58.829 --> 01:06:04.037 And, um, then the department chair during that summer contacted me and 01:06:04.070 --> 01:06:07.385 asked me if I would be willing to come back. We had the untimely death of 01:06:07.418 --> 01:06:10.747 one of our faculty members in the economics department. And he asked me if 01:06:10.780 --> 01:06:15.467 I'd come back and teach during the fall of 2004. So I actually ended with 01:06:15.500 --> 01:06:21.776 38.5 years and that half year was coming back to assist for an additional 01:06:21.809 --> 01:06:25.916 semester because they were shorthanded. Looking back over all those years 01:06:25.949 --> 01:06:33.949 , is there any particular um accomplishment that you're proudest of? 01:06:34.719 --> 01:06:37.626 I don't know, that would probably sound arrogant to think that I made a 01:06:37.659 --> 01:06:43.396 difference, but I hope I made a difference in the place. 01:06:43.429 --> 01:06:50.646 Well, I tried to provide some leadership. I tried to treat people fairly. 01:06:50.679 --> 01:06:54.526 I think um the different opportunities that I had to serve in 01:06:54.559 --> 01:06:59.767 administrative roles. I, I think I made a difference. 01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:02.865 What about your department? Is there anything special about the College of 01:07:02.898 --> 01:07:07.046 Business that if you were to tell someone coming here, what, what makes 01:07:07.079 --> 01:07:12.557 that special? One of the things that the department does is they put full 01:07:12.590 --> 01:07:17.026 time faculty in the introductory courses. And I think that's something 01:07:17.059 --> 01:07:23.376 that universities get a lot of criticism for if they don't do that, some 01:07:23.409 --> 01:07:26.787 put teaching assistants in charge of the introductory courses and you 01:07:26.820 --> 01:07:30.747 never see a full professor until you're in the junior or senior year. And 01:07:30.780 --> 01:07:37.037 our department has made a conscious effort to put some of the regular full 01:07:37.070 --> 01:07:40.217 time faculty in front of the new students coming in. And it's made a 01:07:40.250 --> 01:07:44.836 difference in terms of majors because students are more attracted to 01:07:44.869 --> 01:07:48.865 accept that as a major. If they've had a good experience with one of the 01:07:48.898 --> 01:07:52.506 faculty in the introductory courses. 01:07:52.539 --> 01:07:57.876 How about that? I don't know. I think there are some of us that didn't 01:07:57.909 --> 01:08:01.816 mind it at all. I think there are others that would much rather deal with 01:08:01.849 --> 01:08:04.787 graduate students and upper division students than have to deal with the 01:08:04.820 --> 01:08:11.247 introductory level student. But I didn't mind it at all. Um You work with 01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:15.345 a lot of the presidents over your career, could you reflect on each of 01:08:15.378 --> 01:08:21.996 those and what your impressions were of them? Um Well, Homer Derham was 01:08:22.029 --> 01:08:24.764 president when I came 01:08:24.797 --> 01:08:30.186 and then when he took a position in Utah, Harry Durn became president and 01:08:30.219 --> 01:08:32.705 I wasn't really involved in administration, so I didn't really get to know 01:08:32.738 --> 01:08:36.035 Harry very well. 01:08:36.068 --> 01:08:43.174 And then John Wade came after Harry and President Sua was here for, gosh, 01:08:43.207 --> 01:08:47.647 I don't know how many years, probably 10 years or so. 01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:55.680 It was um well, let me finish this scenario. Um Then um la 01:08:58.180 --> 01:09:02.826 no, I meant sorry, Russ Nelson was next and then Lady Core and each of 01:09:02.859 --> 01:09:08.416 them had something to bring to the table. I guess. It's kind of amazing 01:09:08.449 --> 01:09:14.156 how it works out that as each institution evolves each person that they've 01:09:14.189 --> 01:09:19.976 hired, I thought had some good things to bring to the table. 01:09:20.009 --> 01:09:26.817 John Schwa was a little bit more of a person who was more close to himself 01:09:26.850 --> 01:09:33.976 and not as outgoing as a couple of the others that followed him. 01:09:34.009 --> 01:09:38.006 Russ Nelson was a wonderful person to work with. I enjoyed him very, very 01:09:38.039 --> 01:09:45.286 much Russ was when he was in public and he was speaking and all that, he 01:09:45.319 --> 01:09:49.647 was very proper and all of that. 01:09:49.680 --> 01:09:53.296 But when you were in private, you found out that beneath all that was a 01:09:53.329 --> 01:10:01.329 very wonderful sense of humor and very quick wit. And so it was fun to 01:10:02.100 --> 01:10:06.076 have worked with him and then I worked with Laddie only for a short time, 01:10:06.109 --> 01:10:09.107 but lady had a very 01:10:09.140 --> 01:10:14.555 unique ability I think to reach out to and appeal to the community. And so 01:10:14.588 --> 01:10:18.536 I think each of them had something to bring to the table. I think Russ 01:10:18.569 --> 01:10:24.116 brought the research capabilities of the institution up. In fact, I think 01:10:24.149 --> 01:10:31.067 we became research one largely as a result of a lot of what he did. So 01:10:31.100 --> 01:10:35.416 they all have something to bring. And with Michael Crowe, I was retired 01:10:35.449 --> 01:10:38.626 before he got here. So I don't know as much about Michael other than what 01:10:38.659 --> 01:10:43.385 I read in the newspapers, 01:10:43.418 --> 01:10:47.095 a lot of people have opinions about Michael Crow. Well, he's a very 01:10:47.128 --> 01:10:52.336 proactive person and he's an entrepreneur and willing to take a lot of 01:10:52.369 --> 01:10:58.826 risks. And I think that makes a lot of people uncomfortable. Sometimes 01:10:58.859 --> 01:11:01.876 goes back to what you said about the university tends to want to bring 01:11:01.909 --> 01:11:07.046 people from outside. I think that's a typical pattern, not only at the U 01:11:07.079 --> 01:11:12.996 but in many other institutions. And if you look at somebody that's had a 01:11:13.029 --> 01:11:15.987 certain level of experience at another institution and you say, well, gee 01:11:16.020 --> 01:11:21.777 maybe they got something they can bring. So it's not unusual, 01:11:21.810 --> 01:11:26.366 was kind of unique in that he had roots here in Arizona. Yes. Yes, he did. 01:11:26.399 --> 01:11:32.067 And I thought he use that to his advantage and to the advantage of the 01:11:32.100 --> 01:11:38.666 institution. 01:11:38.699 --> 01:11:45.116 Yeah. About the growth and change of the university that you, oh, wow. 01:11:45.149 --> 01:11:49.976 It's been phenomenal. Not just the university but the community and all of 01:11:50.009 --> 01:11:54.866 that. I remember when we, when we used to go into Phoenix, when we first 01:11:54.899 --> 01:12:00.376 got here, we had to drive west on Broadway quite a ways before we could 01:12:00.409 --> 01:12:06.385 ever get to the four lane highway which is interstate 10. And when you 01:12:06.418 --> 01:12:11.897 went south, like on rural and mclintock, those streets became narrow, two 01:12:11.930 --> 01:12:16.635 lane streets very quickly as you were going south. And now the development 01:12:16.668 --> 01:12:19.286 has just been phenomenal 01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:24.187 and the same thing with the university, it's grown quantitatively and 01:12:24.220 --> 01:12:30.786 qualitatively so much during the years that I was blessed to be here. 01:12:30.819 --> 01:12:34.765 I thought ASU had kind of a unique experience because we continued to try 01:12:34.798 --> 01:12:40.656 to serve the community, continued to try to allow students to be here 01:12:40.689 --> 01:12:45.515 because we were the only state university in the area. And still, at the 01:12:45.548 --> 01:12:50.885 same time, I tried to enhance the research component of the institution. 01:12:50.918 --> 01:12:55.746 So it was a delicate balance. I think that that we handled. I know today 01:12:55.779 --> 01:12:59.027 they talk about the new university doing that, but the reality is we were 01:12:59.060 --> 01:13:02.737 doing that for years. That's 01:13:02.770 --> 01:13:10.770 co could you um just in fairly short sentence of say when you came here 01:13:10.850 --> 01:13:14.756 about how many students and how much faculty and then when you left about 01:13:14.789 --> 01:13:19.656 how big it was. I think when I first came that the institution was about 01:13:19.689 --> 01:13:25.976 15,000 head count compared to what 65,000. Now on all the campuses 01:13:26.009 --> 01:13:28.086 combined 01:13:28.119 --> 01:13:31.796 the number of faculty total university. I don't know what that was at the 01:13:31.829 --> 01:13:38.576 time I came, but it's easily quadrupled during that time period. 01:13:38.609 --> 01:13:44.576 The Business College I know went from about 4000 students at the time I 01:13:44.609 --> 01:13:48.586 got here or fewer to up over 10,000. By the time I moved over to the 01:13:48.619 --> 01:13:54.737 provost office, we had more students than we gained in a year than what 01:13:54.770 --> 01:13:58.726 the size of some smaller institutions were in total. It was like taking on 01:13:58.759 --> 01:14:03.277 another university. In a year's time. And of course, the resources, as I 01:14:03.310 --> 01:14:06.976 said before, they always fell behind because we never quite caught up with 01:14:07.009 --> 01:14:12.376 the formula for funding. What was the biggest challenge that you faced 01:14:12.409 --> 01:14:17.885 over your career here? I think one of the biggest challenges was that the 01:14:17.918 --> 01:14:22.845 financial strains that we went through. We were trying to grow. We were 01:14:22.878 --> 01:14:26.595 trying to get the resources we needed. We were in a space crunch. We were 01:14:26.628 --> 01:14:29.956 in a financial crunch. 01:14:29.989 --> 01:14:35.196 Economics talks about allocating scarce resources. And that's literally 01:14:35.229 --> 01:14:39.687 what it was not only financial but space. I remember in the College of 01:14:39.720 --> 01:14:45.116 Business, we were so tight on space that that after registration closed on 01:14:45.149 --> 01:14:49.976 a given day, Lonnie Ostrom and Bill Heising and I would sit there until 01:14:50.009 --> 01:14:54.857 sometimes the wee hours of the morning making up signs to move all the 01:14:54.890 --> 01:14:57.987 classrooms around. We had a great big spreadsheet and we would move the 01:14:58.020 --> 01:15:02.015 classrooms to accommodate the students rather than turning a student away 01:15:02.048 --> 01:15:06.175 because we had reached capacity in that classroom. We would reorganize it 01:15:06.208 --> 01:15:08.987 so that we could move that class to a larger classroom and swap them 01:15:09.020 --> 01:15:12.796 around. The faculty would arrive the next morning and they would go to 01:15:12.829 --> 01:15:15.956 their classroom and they would find a sign on the door which said your 01:15:15.989 --> 01:15:20.336 class has been moved. Well, we would also put it on their office, but it 01:15:20.369 --> 01:15:24.885 would say your class has been moved to B A 132 or something like that. And 01:15:24.918 --> 01:15:28.647 they did it just routine. People just accepted that and they said, hey, 01:15:28.680 --> 01:15:32.336 we're trying to accommodate the students needs. So I think the toughest 01:15:32.369 --> 01:15:37.817 balance has been trying to balance out the finances and the space and 01:15:37.850 --> 01:15:42.786 those were two areas that I worked a lot in the provost office. 01:15:42.819 --> 01:15:46.555 Are there any particular students that you had during these years that you 01:15:46.588 --> 01:15:48.956 remember 01:15:48.989 --> 01:15:53.156 a number of them? In fact, I just got an email from one yesterday that 01:15:53.189 --> 01:15:57.796 invited me to lunch. And two weeks ago, we went to the wedding of one of 01:15:57.829 --> 01:16:03.027 my former students and I still get emails from a number of the students 01:16:03.060 --> 01:16:05.765 that were involved in Alpha Kappa. I, when I was an advisor for that 01:16:05.798 --> 01:16:13.376 organization and there are a lot of contacts I've retired but I haven't 01:16:13.409 --> 01:16:17.067 disappeared and I still have the same email address that I had when I was 01:16:17.100 --> 01:16:20.366 a faculty member. And I thought that was a blessing because I can still 01:16:20.399 --> 01:16:24.726 send an email and say, oh, you're still there, you know. So it's good. Are 01:16:24.759 --> 01:16:28.277 there any particular ones that they become successful or done? Notable 01:16:28.310 --> 01:16:36.310 things that you can? Oh, yes. When I was in the associate dean position, I 01:16:36.319 --> 01:16:40.467 was in charge of graduate programs in the doctoral program. And we had so 01:16:40.500 --> 01:16:43.616 many of those people that had gone on. In fact, Steve Brown, one of our 01:16:43.649 --> 01:16:46.866 own faculty members was in the doctor program at the time that I was 01:16:46.899 --> 01:16:51.406 directing that program and he went somewhere else to Louisiana LSU. I 01:16:51.439 --> 01:16:54.265 think it was. And then we hired him back because he was such an 01:16:54.298 --> 01:17:00.357 outstanding faculty member. So any number of those, I wouldn't try to give 01:17:00.390 --> 01:17:03.296 you a whole list of them. But Steve is a good example. What about 01:17:03.329 --> 01:17:07.496 successful business people that went through? 01:17:07.529 --> 01:17:11.696 Sure. There are a lot of those John Beling was one of my former students 01:17:11.729 --> 01:17:15.277 runs Tempe decorating 01:17:15.310 --> 01:17:18.857 here in Tempe and two or three other locations. And I had a number of 01:17:18.890 --> 01:17:24.376 students that went on when you're teaching the large lecture sections, you 01:17:24.409 --> 01:17:29.156 don't get the chance to get as close to some of the students as would 01:17:29.189 --> 01:17:33.187 otherwise be the case. But in spite of that, I've had a number of students 01:17:33.220 --> 01:17:36.196 that I directed their honors thesis and things like that, that I worked 01:17:36.229 --> 01:17:39.187 with 01:17:39.220 --> 01:17:45.656 one of my sons and I was in the business college and 01:17:45.689 --> 01:17:50.607 he was in a program where he actually sort of designed a business. Uh I 01:17:50.640 --> 01:17:55.256 mean, he came up with and I think with the small business and he came up 01:17:55.289 --> 01:18:00.095 with it and when he graduated a couple of attorneys in Phoenix funded it 01:18:00.128 --> 01:18:04.607 and he started the business, which became pretty, 01:18:04.640 --> 01:18:10.265 that's great. Was that something that you did? Well, there was a small 01:18:10.298 --> 01:18:15.086 business division within the college. I wasn't participating directly in 01:18:15.119 --> 01:18:17.805 that other than maybe teaching the classes to some of the people that were 01:18:17.838 --> 01:18:22.845 in the program, but I wasn't involved in running that program. But I think 01:18:22.878 --> 01:18:27.156 that entrepreneurship was one of the greatest things you can teach our 01:18:27.189 --> 01:18:31.296 youngsters because they learned how to do a business, how to develop a 01:18:31.329 --> 01:18:37.777 business plan and hopefully succeed. Sounds like your son did. He, uh, he 01:18:37.810 --> 01:18:43.286 , he, upon graduation, he, he went and built that business. It, they've 01:18:43.319 --> 01:18:48.397 since sold it, but, uh they've got like five stores in the area and that's 01:18:48.430 --> 01:18:54.345 great, you know, and a great big uh uh distribution center on Broadway 01:18:54.378 --> 01:18:57.067 there. 01:18:57.100 --> 01:19:02.696 Put his education to good use. That's great. Um Are there any other 01:19:02.729 --> 01:19:07.925 memories you have of a su that you wanted to be sure and mention for? 01:19:07.958 --> 01:19:10.946 Well, I think the memories 01:19:10.979 --> 01:19:14.937 probably the people as much as anything because I just had so many 01:19:14.970 --> 01:19:20.166 wonderful people to work with while I was in the Provost office. Matt 01:19:20.199 --> 01:19:23.786 Betts was there, Joyce Foster. 01:19:23.819 --> 01:19:29.156 Matt was a very wonderful person to work with. He was always there. He was 01:19:29.189 --> 01:19:34.916 a lot of times the guy behind the scenes, but he's one that I would have 01:19:34.949 --> 01:19:39.786 described as the one that would say, what can I do for the university? Not 01:19:39.819 --> 01:19:45.946 what can the university do for me? Linda Vanoy was kind of my right hand 01:19:45.979 --> 01:19:49.546 person for many years. All the 12 years I was in the Provost office and a 01:19:49.579 --> 01:19:55.467 wonderful asset to the institution. So there are just so many people like 01:19:55.500 --> 01:19:58.836 that. I run the risk of starting to name people and I know that I'm 01:19:58.869 --> 01:20:02.027 leaving out somebody that I should have mentioned. But I think that's the 01:20:02.060 --> 01:20:07.717 best memory I have of people that I worked with 01:20:07.750 --> 01:20:13.996 things that happened that uh you, any of those you want, I hadn't tried to 01:20:14.029 --> 01:20:22.029 even categorize any single thing because I guess the total picture is much 01:20:22.338 --> 01:20:26.866 greater than the sum of the parts. It's been a wonderful experience and 01:20:26.899 --> 01:20:29.576 the university gave me a lot of opportunities to do a lot of things while 01:20:29.609 --> 01:20:33.765 I was here and I appreciate that I didn't have to move in order to get a 01:20:33.798 --> 01:20:39.805 promotion or to get a different opportunity. And, and that was nice 01:20:39.838 --> 01:20:43.326 because our family was here. Our Children were here and they're both 01:20:43.359 --> 01:20:46.976 married and they're here with their kids. And then I got to thinking about 01:20:47.009 --> 01:20:49.696 it and I said this is a place where everybody else tries to move when they 01:20:49.729 --> 01:20:55.836 retire. And I said I'm already here. So what could be better than that? 01:20:55.869 --> 01:21:01.836 No, no, we're here. We're here for the duration. 01:21:01.869 --> 01:21:05.675 Well, they come to visit a lot. It's a good place to vacate in the winter 01:21:05.708 --> 01:21:08.366 time. It's a good place to vacation. We discourage them from coming in the 01:21:08.399 --> 01:21:12.796 summer. Um, well, what kind of advice do you have for young people that 01:21:12.829 --> 01:21:17.786 are trying to decide what they wanna do with their lives? 01:21:17.819 --> 01:21:21.717 Well, that's a good question. And I've answered that question to students 01:21:21.750 --> 01:21:28.027 on several occasions. Basically, what I would say is this, they should do 01:21:28.060 --> 01:21:32.687 something that they, like I said, I can't imagine anything worse than 01:21:32.720 --> 01:21:37.015 going to work each day and not wanting to be there. So, don't look at what 01:21:37.048 --> 01:21:41.416 the salary of the job is. Don't look at all of the financial implications 01:21:41.449 --> 01:21:45.067 as much as you look at the satisfaction that you get from the job. Because 01:21:45.100 --> 01:21:48.607 if you like to go to work and you like what you're doing, you don't mind 01:21:48.640 --> 01:21:52.906 Monday mornings it's ok. It will be great and you'll have a happy life. 01:21:52.939 --> 01:21:56.746 But if you just try to pursue something, well, I don't really like this 01:21:56.779 --> 01:22:00.385 but I think I can make more money at it. You won't get the satisfaction 01:22:00.418 --> 01:22:04.265 out of your work. 01:22:04.298 --> 01:22:08.765 Anything else that you wanted to tell us that I didn't ask you. 01:22:08.798 --> 01:22:13.116 You've been very thorough and I think your questions have been very 01:22:13.149 --> 01:22:17.196 appropriate. I hope I've been able to answer them for you. You bob 01:22:17.229 --> 01:22:21.857 anything that you wanted to ask. I can't think of anything right now, but 01:22:21.890 --> 01:22:28.406 that's, it's been a wonderful interview. Thank you. Thank you. 01:22:28.439 --> 01:22:31.885 The only, the only thing I would ask, we talked a little about the 01:22:31.918 --> 01:22:34.987 presidents, but I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about some 01:22:35.020 --> 01:22:41.196 of the themes of the college. Um And then what maybe from your viewpoint, 01:22:41.229 --> 01:22:48.326 each of them kind of brought at that particular time to the column. OK. Um 01:22:48.359 --> 01:22:52.317 Well, I worked with a lot of the deans. In fact, all the deans reported to 01:22:52.350 --> 01:22:57.246 me from time to time, Alan Matheson, I thought was an absolutely 01:22:57.279 --> 01:23:03.286 outstanding educator and administrator. I thought that he brought a lot to 01:23:03.319 --> 01:23:07.206 the College of Law in all the years that he served in the dean or acting 01:23:07.239 --> 01:23:13.196 dean role. I worked with Roland Hayden when he was Dean of Engineering, I 01:23:13.229 --> 01:23:17.515 thought he brought the engineering college uh forward with the engineering 01:23:17.548 --> 01:23:22.135 excellence program. Um worked with Gary Crayon Beell and I thought he 01:23:22.168 --> 01:23:29.175 provided good leadership in liberal arts. Um Jules Heller in fine arts. 01:23:29.208 --> 01:23:34.976 Jules was a very interesting person. He was a paper maker. He would make 01:23:35.009 --> 01:23:41.857 his own paper for his artwork. But yet it was a good administrator. 01:23:41.890 --> 01:23:45.496 George Amberson wasn't a dean, but he was a school director and I thought 01:23:45.529 --> 01:23:52.656 George did an outstanding job with the students and with his faculty, 01:23:52.689 --> 01:23:58.246 I should have prepared a list trying to remember all the 01:23:58.279 --> 01:24:04.925 well in the business College Overman was dean for 25 years. And then when 01:24:04.958 --> 01:24:09.726 I was in the provost office and Bill Seaman came in and Bill was here for 01:24:09.759 --> 01:24:13.015 a short time. 01:24:13.048 --> 01:24:20.126 He had come from Phelps Dodge didn't have a huge amount of educational 01:24:20.159 --> 01:24:24.796 leadership experience, but he had a lot of CEO type experience and I think 01:24:24.829 --> 01:24:30.626 he related pretty well to a lot of the businesses in the community. Then I 01:24:30.659 --> 01:24:35.576 think after a short time, he went back to Washington to take a position 01:24:35.609 --> 01:24:38.326 back there. That was back at the time when the savings and loans were 01:24:38.359 --> 01:24:43.527 going through all of the turmoil. And they put him in a leadership role to 01:24:43.560 --> 01:24:47.345 help resolve some of that issue. 01:24:47.378 --> 01:24:52.345 And then Bill Rife took over temporarily after Bill Seaman left. And then 01:24:52.378 --> 01:25:00.378 John Kraft was hired after that, John Kraft came from Florida and Kraft's 01:25:01.020 --> 01:25:07.345 motivation was probably about 180 degrees from where Overman was. Oman was 01:25:07.378 --> 01:25:12.076 interested in growing a larger better college and trying to serve all the 01:25:12.109 --> 01:25:18.717 needs. Kraft was more interested in downsizing the college and forcing 01:25:18.750 --> 01:25:21.246 more qualitative 01:25:21.279 --> 01:25:27.476 improvement without serving as many students. 01:25:27.509 --> 01:25:30.836 And then Larry Pendley came in and I thought Larry did an absolutely 01:25:30.869 --> 01:25:36.437 wonderful job he was great to work with. And then after I started teaching 01:25:36.470 --> 01:25:38.937 to work for, 01:25:38.970 --> 01:25:42.416 the only thing he did was he asked me to write the accreditation report 01:25:42.449 --> 01:25:48.317 after I came back to the college that year back for a couple of years and 01:25:48.350 --> 01:25:53.437 I agreed to do it so it was ok, but it turned into a huge job, but Larry 01:25:53.470 --> 01:25:59.385 was wonderful to work with and I thought that he did just a super job and 01:25:59.418 --> 01:26:05.166 then he went on to become president at Colorado State that shows something 01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:10.546 about his leadership as well. Um So those are the ones that I worked with 01:26:10.579 --> 01:26:13.765 during that time period and I'm sure I'm leaving out some of the other 01:26:13.798 --> 01:26:19.027 deans. Let's see, John Kraft was trying to downsize, that seems very 01:26:19.060 --> 01:26:23.467 unusual that anybody would want to downsize. Well, that was his way. I 01:26:23.500 --> 01:26:27.607 think of addressing the resource question. He said, if we don't have the 01:26:27.640 --> 01:26:31.277 resources, then we're just not going to serve as many students. So I think 01:26:31.310 --> 01:26:34.756 he took several actions which tended to make the college smaller. And then 01:26:34.789 --> 01:26:39.706 after Larry Pendley took over, then I think the college grew again, just a 01:26:39.739 --> 01:26:46.476 different approach to trying to solve a difficult problem. 01:26:46.509 --> 01:26:50.635 It didn't fit quite as well with the Arizona needs is what some of us 01:26:50.668 --> 01:26:54.796 thought it should. It seems like deans have become fundraisers more and 01:26:54.829 --> 01:26:59.317 more over the years. And I think that probably that trend will continue. 01:26:59.350 --> 01:27:04.055 It appears that that's what's going to be a large part of their task is to 01:27:04.088 --> 01:27:07.555 generate the funds to help run their colleges. How do you feel about that 01:27:07.588 --> 01:27:12.006 ? Well, it means that they have to surround themselves with some very 01:27:12.039 --> 01:27:17.937 capable people to run the inside of the colleges. And I think that's kind 01:27:17.970 --> 01:27:22.206 of the model that we've seen in the business college now with Phil Over 01:27:22.239 --> 01:27:27.967 gear doing a lot of the internal work for the 01:27:28.000 --> 01:27:32.305 probably a trend we'll see more of. 01:27:32.338 --> 01:27:37.187 I think that's probably going to be true in so many places because so many 01:27:37.220 --> 01:27:42.996 states really don't have the resources to pour into education because 01:27:43.029 --> 01:27:49.027 they're suppressed with other needs, transportation, whatever else. And 01:27:49.060 --> 01:27:52.527 then of course, a lot of pressure in K through 12 to continue raising the 01:27:52.560 --> 01:27:59.406 funding for that. So you think so the people that want to become a dean 01:27:59.439 --> 01:28:04.027 have to think of it as being a fundraiser rather than, I think a good 01:28:04.060 --> 01:28:08.416 portion of their task will be for fundraising. Yes, I really do rather 01:28:08.449 --> 01:28:12.006 than doing more of the hands on leadership. I think, as I said before, 01:28:12.039 --> 01:28:14.437 they'll have to surround themselves with good people to do the internal 01:28:14.470 --> 01:28:16.476 work. 01:28:16.509 --> 01:28:22.746 University presidents. Yes, it is. Is that a change? Well, I think the 01:28:22.779 --> 01:28:27.746 president has always been kind of the external person and I'm sure Lonnie 01:28:27.779 --> 01:28:30.666 and the foundation people could tell you more about that, but they always 01:28:30.699 --> 01:28:34.777 want to get a bigger and bigger share of the president's time because when 01:28:34.810 --> 01:28:41.696 it's time to close a deal, so to speak for a huge grant, it's usually the 01:28:41.729 --> 01:28:48.479 president that the donor wants to give it to. And that's not been unusual. 01:28:50.378 --> 01:28:52.378 Anything else 01:28:54.500 --> 01:28:57.885 you have anything that you thought you want to add? I think you've been 01:28:57.918 --> 01:29:00.437 very thorough and I appreciate the opportunity to have done this. I think 01:29:00.470 --> 01:29:05.237 it's a great project and I hope that the video history project can help 01:29:05.270 --> 01:29:10.399 preserve some of our history. Thank you.