WEBVTT

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 Uh introducing the on the tape that today is Monday, November 24th of

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2003. And I'm Pam Stevenson doing an
interview here at Arizona State

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University or the um a su Retirees
Association Living History video

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project. And I will let you introduce
yourself. Um Why don't you give me

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your name and tell me what you did at
A SU when you retired. My name is

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John Edwards and I worked at A SU for
over 30 years. And what I did was

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coordinate the efforts of all off
campus programs and all international

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study programs along with Dennis
Keegan, who was the dean and I was

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associate dean. It's a lot of fun. A
lot of stories have come out of all

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of that by the students, but it was
really an exceptional event for me to

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participate to that extent. Good.
Well, we'll go back and hear some of

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those stories, but I always like to
get just a little bit of background

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and tell me about where you were born
and when you were born. Well, I was

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born in Mun Indiana in 1930

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and I was one of nine Children and
several are still alive today. And I

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went on to elementary school and
junior high and high school and college

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and never missed a day. Nor was it?

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Well, I felt good about it but I think
it enhanced the learning process

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quite a bit.

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Um, education must have been important
to your family. Then if you were,

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you know, stressed, I guess that you
were good to go to school. Well,

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education was very important to the,
all the members of the family and all

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of us went through high school and
somewhat on to college. And we really

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took a great, great feeling at that
time that all of us did get through

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hook or crook. That's quite an
accomplishment for a family that large.

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What did your family do for a living?
Well, my dad was unemployed for a

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number of years because this was
during the depression, his first major

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job after the, uh you might say a bad
cycle in our economy came in 1941.

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About the same time as World World War
Two started. And so he was a good

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provider, but he was also a motivator
one way or the other. What about

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your mother? She was very much like my
father only, she was more

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passionate than my father. She was a
good lady. And uh I'll tell you what

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she helped, not only our family, but a
lot of poor people came to our

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house during the depression. To eat
and she always found something to

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assist. Did she work outside the home?
No, she did not. So how did you get

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by in those years? Were farmers? Did
you grow your own food? We had a

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Victory Garden and some people don't
know what that was, but we had a nice

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sized Victory Garden and we enjoyed it
to watch the plants grow and to

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harvest the fruits of our labor was
really an experience because during

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World War II, I think they call them
Victory Gardens if I remember

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correctly. And that, that helped out
quite a bit with the family of our

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size.

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Well, tell me about when you were in
school, you say you never missed a

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day. Were you a good student? I was a
good student. I can't brag on myself.

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I was a good student and enjoyed it.
But at first they had an honor

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society but they didn't want me in it.
And it reached a point that I had a

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lot of support and they opened up the
honor society. It was no longer

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discriminatory.

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Why they didn't want you in it. Well,
because I was African American. Some

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people didn't want me in it. Not all
of them. I had enough support and it

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was, I think quite an eye opener for
me and possibly some of them too. And

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that was in the, what was that? The
forties, forties. So you went to high

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school with it? Must have been an
integrated high school there. Yes. At

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that particular time it became
integrated just before I went.

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What was that period of time? Like, it
was challenging and, uh I thought

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it was a fun period of time because I
got a chance to play baseball and

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play football and enjoyed every moment
of it. And also in elementary

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school, I was table tennis champion.
We call it ping pong.

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So you're quite an athlete? Well,
didn't take much of my people.

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What would you progress up to?
Baseball and football? Yes. Baseball and

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football. I was a halfback and uh

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play second base for the baseball
team. This was in Indiana. Is that you

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said you were born there? I, as you
grew up there. Yes.

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Did you have some favorite courses in
school or did you have ideas of what

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you wanted to do when you got out of
school? I had ideas about what I

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wanted to do and you won't believe it.
One was to go to college. Number

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two was to be a college professor and
I accomplished both of those. Now,

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how did you get those ideas growing up
in Indiana? Well, II, I think then

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the oldest child often set the pace
and the other siblings followed. And

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that happened in my particular case
and also my brothers and sisters, one

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right after another, we, we had a lot
of people who thought we were a

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wealthy family, but we weren't because
there were, let's see, there were

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nine of us kids, of course, two died
and all the rest went to college. Now

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, why did they think you were wealthy?
Because we went to college. College

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was sort of a special place to all
families and to go during the

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depression. And near the end of the
depression was quite a feat. But we

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also had jobs, they weren't really
jobs per se, but I served as a

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custodian and my dad was a custodian.
And as when I went through college,

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that left another spot for somebody
else to move in. And that's what

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happened. We struggled through it, but
we enjoyed it. We often laugh and

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talk about it. Some of the things that
happened to us and they said my dad

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went to sleep while he was on his
broom.

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Where was this? Where did you go to
college? I went to Ball State

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University in Muncie, Indiana, the so
called all American City. You've

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heard of Ball Brothers? The Ball Mason
jars. Well, they endowed that

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university is quite a place. Very,
very nice. And not only that I worked

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for Ball Brothers, meaning at the
factory because I made

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canning jars. When I said I made it, I
handled the machine that made it,

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it was a very hot place to work. It
was at least about 120 to 140 degrees

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inside the factory. And when the metal
came down or the molten glass came

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down and formed the jar. It was very
interesting to watch how they did

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things and when we finished it, it
went down what we call a layer tinder

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out and it was tempered and then it
was boxed and bottled and shipped all

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over the country. I think. I have some
of those jars. I didn't see you

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there. Good.

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So, was that when you were in college
that you worked in the factory or?

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Yeah, I did that. What was your major
in college? My major was business.

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And also I had a double major. It was
history or the social sciences as it

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was called then. And so what did you
plan to do when you got out of

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college? Well, as I said, I always
wanted to be a, a college professor and

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I got the opportunity and it worked
out well. Tell me about how that came

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about. You don't just become a college
professor. No. Uh, you, you have to

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work at it. You have to teach and I
taught in the public schools first and

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then on, and I was selected as one of
the students to move into the

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doctoral program. And then after that,
uh I landed the job. What did you

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teach in public schools? Well, in the
public schools in those days you had

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to teach just about everything in the
curriculum.

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From math to biology and it was a long
endless school. You were teaching

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grade and junior high school and then
high school.

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So, how long did you teach in the
grade school? I think it was six years.

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About six years. Now. They have what
we call the semester and the

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semester didn't go along with Asu's
semester because a su had quarters, I

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think at first. But anyway, it was
very, very nice. And the students were

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much better than what I was led to
believe you're talking about a su did

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you come out to Arizona to teach then,
or? Yes, tell me about how you came

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to Arizona. Well, I had several
friends out here. In fact, when I was

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discharged, two officers said, well,
why don't you come to Arizona and

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both lived in or near Phoenix at that
particular time? But at that time,

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we didn't know a heck of a lot about
Arizona. So most of the guys in the

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company, even in the battalion said,
oh, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I found out

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some of us ended up in Arizona and
I've enjoyed it ever since. Uh Michael

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J mcnulty was, uh, my platoon
commander at that particular time and he was

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from the Phoenix area, but I haven't
seen him since I've been out here.

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Why don't you back up a little bit and
tell us how you got into the

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military. Um, last time you were, you
were in college,

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you graduated, right. And of course, I
had been deferred from being

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drafted, this is what they called it.
They deferred you until you finish

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your goal. And I was drafted
immediately after I graduated from college.

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What year was that? That was 1950
three?

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And where did you, what branch in the
second Infantry division? Fort Louis

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Washington. But before that, I have to
tell you it was the Illinois 44th

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division. And we all went to that and
then we were shipped to Fort Le

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warship in the biggest Arama in the
history of the United States. One

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whole fort was cleaned out and they
sent us off to Fort Le with the second

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infantry division and the planes were
up all day and all night, we were

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coming in at all times. It was a
little boring after a while because we

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didn't have first class seats. We were
in troop transport planes where you

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sat on the floor.

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So what did you do at Fort Louis
Washington? Well, I was drafted and I got

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a position in the company's office.
They call us um,

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extra help, but they found out I could
type over 100 words per minute. I

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moved up so fast. And then when my
captain was asked if he would transfer

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me to G one,

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he refused. And of course, I didn't
want to work in the general's office

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in the first place. I was always
afraid of those guys because the only

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what I knew anything about was general
Custer.

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You were a good fit for the military.
Well, we got along fine. I handled

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all the problems with courts and
boards and I didn't particularly like

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some of the outcomes, but I had to get
the charges and, and the

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specifications of all the people who
had violated military justice. They

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had a uniform code of military justice
and they kind of left that to me to

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keep all the changes and the
amendments and all the other stuff together.

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So it was an interesting job. But I
also did the regular infantry fired

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the 30 caliber rifle, the air cool
water, cool machine gun and also the

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2.6 and the 3.5 rocket, which was what
we called the Bazooka at that

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particular time. So I had my share of
the military. It was nice. It was

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enjoyable. Did you ever go over? Yes.
Well, we, we were overseas but I

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can't tell you where we were because
they never would tell us where we

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were going. Now, how could that be?
Well, everything was a secret. But uh

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we boarded the troop transportation, a
ship to us s Bayville. And when we

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left, we, I think we were, well, we
left solo point Washington and then we

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ended up near Hawaii. But we had a
major problem because uh the United

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States tw went down in front of us.
And so we were, there were 54 ships in

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that convoy and we had been singled
out as the point ship to go in and

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rescue those people. And that was a
job. In fact, it was in Life magazine

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,

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1953

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September issue, if I can remember.
And it was gruesome. It was gruesome

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because when the tw A went down all
the fuel, which normally is in the

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wings

00:15:19.178 --> 00:15:24.946
got into the water and people were
actually suffocating. I think we got 19

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survivors if I can remember correctly.
But I have to admire the navy. They

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couldn't go in with motor boats. They
had to row in because of all the oil

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and the gas on the top of the ocean.
And we were all pulling and yelling

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and working. And when they brought
those people on board, they didn't have

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clothes on. The impact was so great.
It just stripped them and they had

00:15:51.908 --> 00:15:57.885
oil all over them and nostrils and
eyes and we had to help and I was a top

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side loader. I don't know whether you
know what that is. But in the, we

00:16:03.869 --> 00:16:08.696
were aboard the US S Bayfield. But
when they pulled the rope ladders over

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, they were just like a ladder, but
they were rope. You had to climb down

00:16:13.808 --> 00:16:20.316
the side of the ship and then jump
into a row boat. And it was really

00:16:20.349 --> 00:16:25.557
something I have the greatest respect
for the navy. They did that so

00:16:25.590 --> 00:16:27.696
beautifully.

00:16:27.729 --> 00:16:32.606
Some lives were lost but it wasn't
their fault because you can't take a

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big troop transport and pull it up and
stop. If you do, you're going to

00:16:38.558 --> 00:16:43.765
take everybody around it down. So, it
was, it was quite an affair. It's

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amazing that many people survived.
Yeah, quite a, quite a number survived.

00:16:48.599 --> 00:16:55.269
But I can't tell you how many. But I
know we took a lot aboard our ship.

00:16:55.580 --> 00:16:57.580
The 1953 period, the Korean War was ending. Well, it started ending, I

00:17:02.190 --> 00:17:07.996
think it ended in September of 53.

00:17:08.029 --> 00:17:12.585
Didn't get involved in going over
there. Well, we were out at sea most of

00:17:12.618 --> 00:17:20.618
the time as a stand by task force and
that's when the tw A went down.

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So, how many years did you serve in
the military? Two,

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I served my time but it's two busy
years. Two real busy years. I think I

00:17:33.309 --> 00:17:38.266
slept on a bed once or twice. I can't
sit for

00:17:38.299 --> 00:17:43.246
a lot of time out at sea. Well, a lot
of time out on the desert at Yakima

00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:47.825
firing center out from, uh, well, it
was about 100 and 60 miles, I believe

00:17:47.858 --> 00:17:55.815
south of Seattle or near it. And
that's a desert. That is, this is not a

00:17:55.848 --> 00:18:02.406
desert right here. This is not a
desert. That was a desert.

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We had our problems with rattlesnakes.

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It was a major problem. You don't
think of Washington as having dessert.

00:18:12.348 --> 00:18:17.847
No, I don't think anybody did but we
were shocked. We were out by the

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Yakama what they call the Yakama
firing Center. And that, that's a desert

00:18:22.160 --> 00:18:29.795
. I don't think anything could survive
out there because it gets 100 and

00:18:29.828 --> 00:18:36.065
15 to 100 and 30. And in the winter
time it's just the opposite. It's real

00:18:36.098 --> 00:18:40.226
cold.

00:18:40.259 --> 00:18:43.486
So when you got out of the military,
you say people suggested you might

00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:47.347
like Arizona. Is that how you happened
to? Well, one of my commanding

00:18:47.380 --> 00:18:52.867
officers was from the Phoenix area and
there were two other people who

00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:57.295
were from Arizona. And I can't
remember exactly what city or what county

00:18:57.328 --> 00:19:05.026
they lived in. And so, uh when I came
out here and drove up in front of,

00:19:05.059 --> 00:19:11.627
uh then it was the Memorial Union at
one time here on, on A S US campus,

00:19:11.660 --> 00:19:18.026
you could park right in front of the
and guess who I saw one of my

00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:21.196
commanding officers.

00:19:21.229 --> 00:19:26.926
It was quite a reunion, but he enjoyed
it as well as I did you come

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straight to a U or did you just plan
to come and see what Arizona was like

00:19:31.029 --> 00:19:37.387
? No, I went back to Indiana when I
was discharged and another couple from

00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:42.976
my hometown called me and said, if
you'd like to come to Arizona, I know

00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:47.976
where there's a job for you. And I
said, sure. And I came to and got the

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position

00:19:50.049 --> 00:19:55.526
as a teacher in the Roosevelt school
district at that time. I think I

00:19:55.559 --> 00:20:01.065
still call the Roosevelt school
district.

00:20:01.098 --> 00:20:06.325
So, where did you teach, I taught at
Perc Julian school after Doctor

00:20:06.358 --> 00:20:13.637
Julian. And it was a very good
experience to work with those kids from a

00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:19.476
disadvantaged area. They were the
nicest kids and they wanted to learn and

00:20:19.509 --> 00:20:23.726
my job was to make sure that they
learned something in my classes. They

00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:30.387
were so excited, they would stay after
school or they would be there long

00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:35.936
before school started waiting to get
into the classroom. And of course,

00:20:35.969 --> 00:20:39.776
you have to make it interesting and
they made it interesting and they made

00:20:39.809 --> 00:20:43.857
it very, very exciting to each other.

00:20:43.890 --> 00:20:49.295
And that was in the fifties. That was
shortly after the schools here

00:20:49.328 --> 00:20:56.137
integrated. At least it was after they
integrated. Yes, a lot of changes

00:20:56.170 --> 00:21:02.936
in education in the South Phoenix area
at that time. Very true. And I had

00:21:02.969 --> 00:21:07.357
some students and I think every
teacher had some students that never

00:21:07.390 --> 00:21:13.117
missed a day of school while they were
in their classes. So we had to make

00:21:13.150 --> 00:21:18.347
it challenging and industry. It was
quite a challenge. But teaching school

00:21:18.380 --> 00:21:22.276
is a challenge. I don't care where you
teach.

00:21:22.309 --> 00:21:28.986
So, how long did you teach there?
About six years? And when did you decide

00:21:29.019 --> 00:21:36.397
you want to do something different?
Well, uh, I think there was a class on

00:21:36.430 --> 00:21:44.217
campus that was taught by Doctor
Willard Abraham. You may remember him and

00:21:44.250 --> 00:21:49.467
my wife took the class a class from
him and he indicated that there were

00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:55.785
some openings and I applied and, and
got one of the positions. And what,

00:21:55.818 --> 00:22:00.976
what was your position when you came
to u, well, I had been a school

00:22:01.009 --> 00:22:07.147
teacher in the public schools but we
didn't call that a position as a

00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:15.127
teacher, but the jobs that he had, had
been named faculty associates and I

00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:20.597
got one of those six faculty associate
positions. And what did you do? I

00:22:20.630 --> 00:22:27.795
taught. Where were you teaching? Uh,
well, I taught on campus in the

00:22:27.828 --> 00:22:30.877
College of Education.

00:22:30.910 --> 00:22:35.585
I know they had a school on campus at
that time. They had ID paying school.

00:22:35.618 --> 00:22:42.706
Were you teaching in that school? No,
no, I taught teachers to teach

00:22:42.739 --> 00:22:46.315
to be clear about what you came here
to do. What year was that, that you

00:22:46.348 --> 00:22:54.348
came to issues that had to be 1962 63?
Mhm. And you mentioned that the

00:22:55.029 --> 00:22:58.545
first time you came to a su that you
could drive up to the Memorial Union

00:22:58.578 --> 00:23:03.387
while I was a student. I had to take
Arizona Constitution and there was

00:23:03.420 --> 00:23:08.347
another class you had to have those in
order to teach in the state of

00:23:08.380 --> 00:23:10.946
Arizona.

00:23:10.979 --> 00:23:17.117
So you first came to issue then as a
student? Yes.

00:23:17.150 --> 00:23:21.535
Well, what was a su like when you
first came here?

00:23:21.568 --> 00:23:29.568
About what I had pictured it to be a
small school

00:23:30.309 --> 00:23:37.795
with a lot of territory, a school with
what I would say, tremendous

00:23:37.828 --> 00:23:41.545
potential. And that's what I wanted.

00:23:41.578 --> 00:23:47.575
And the students were very, very nice.
The instructors were just

00:23:47.608 --> 00:23:53.377
unbelievable in terms of doing their
jobs. And that was a great

00:23:53.410 --> 00:23:55.476
inspiration

00:23:55.509 --> 00:23:59.676
to me. And so I followed suit.

00:23:59.709 --> 00:24:04.315
So did you, when you got your first
job at a su was your goal then to

00:24:04.348 --> 00:24:11.387
become a professor or it was, that was
one of my many dreams. You know,

00:24:11.420 --> 00:24:14.986
when you're in the military, you have
all kinds of things you dream of

00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:19.825
before you get out,

00:24:19.858 --> 00:24:25.196
You say one of your many, what were
your others? Well, uh one I wanted to

00:24:25.229 --> 00:24:33.229
be a pilot and another dream was to
get married and have a family and they

00:24:33.660 --> 00:24:37.117
mostly boys,

00:24:37.150 --> 00:24:41.156
you make all of those things go too. I
don't know if you have that much

00:24:41.189 --> 00:24:45.456
control over whether you have mostly
boys. No, but it started out that way.

00:24:45.489 --> 00:24:49.217
 It ended up that way.

00:24:49.250 --> 00:24:53.545
Did you get married after you were in
the military or after I got married

00:24:53.578 --> 00:24:58.857
in Arizona? My wife was from North
Carolina, but she came out to teach

00:24:58.890 --> 00:25:03.926
also. Now you have to understand this
is when Arizona was in that

00:25:03.959 --> 00:25:09.217
tremendous growth period and they
needed people and they had all kinds of

00:25:09.250 --> 00:25:14.607
problems. I understand recruiting
teachers and they recruited highly in

00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:20.946
California. I do know that, but it was
a place where I felt. Gee whiz. I

00:25:20.979 --> 00:25:26.357
don't have to shovel snow. Gee whiz I
can drive my car without change or

00:25:26.390 --> 00:25:30.976
stopping to putting on change, going
up a hill or down a hill. I said, I

00:25:31.009 --> 00:25:34.246
think I'll give it a try. And I had
friends out here and I called them and

00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:40.666
they said, sure you get a job, same
day you come. Well, I heard from a

00:25:40.699 --> 00:25:47.880
superintendent, I won't mention his
name, offering me a job far in advance.

00:25:48.118 --> 00:25:50.118
And I said yes. And then two weeks later I got a contract and I signed it

00:25:53.789 --> 00:25:57.825
and then I was off and running. So you
had a job before you even came?

00:25:57.858 --> 00:26:01.717
Really? I did. Yeah. So what was the
difference when you came over to, to

00:26:01.750 --> 00:26:07.706
teach at a su from giving up the
classroom with the younger kids?

00:26:07.739 --> 00:26:13.367
Did you, why do you wanna do that?
Well, I like a challenge and I've

00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:18.976
always wanted to teach on the
collegiate level and this was not a problem

00:26:19.009 --> 00:26:25.295
for me. I was well prepared. I was
well steeped into my background to

00:26:25.328 --> 00:26:31.436
handle that. And I just took off
running. Now, at that point, did you have

00:26:31.469 --> 00:26:38.686
your master's degree? I had hours to
it. And as you know, when you trans

00:26:38.719 --> 00:26:43.696
transfer out, you're going to lose
from another institution because the

00:26:43.729 --> 00:26:50.785
curriculums are all different. But I
managed to go back to school and take

00:26:50.818 --> 00:26:56.766
a few additional courses. Got
certified. And here I am. So while you were

00:26:56.799 --> 00:27:02.256
teaching, you were also getting your
masters. Yes. And I had a boy scout,

00:27:02.289 --> 00:27:08.565
troop cub scouts, all those things you
have to do in a public school, you

00:27:08.598 --> 00:27:13.467
put those together. There's not enough
hours in the day to do everything.

00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:16.825
But somehow I struggled through it. I
really enjoyed working with the

00:27:16.858 --> 00:27:24.436
young people. I took him on hikes, I
took them camping. I had to show them

00:27:24.469 --> 00:27:30.065
how to do a lot of things, but that's
what a teacher has to do anyway.

00:27:30.098 --> 00:27:33.696
What about when you came to ASU, what
was as u like at the time that you

00:27:33.729 --> 00:27:37.847
came to teach here? What was the
College of Education? Was it called the

00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:45.335
College of Education? Well, I don't
know what it was called originally,

00:27:45.368 --> 00:27:51.666
but later it was called the College of
Education. But that change came

00:27:51.699 --> 00:27:59.535
when Arizona State College became a
university. And that's when the big

00:27:59.568 --> 00:28:05.785
switch triggered a lot of, a lot of
momentum and a lot of support by

00:28:05.818 --> 00:28:13.818
alumni. And I think as you and I could
see it was up for better days and

00:28:15.130 --> 00:28:20.686
you could just feel it. The students
were tremendous. We had a lot of

00:28:20.719 --> 00:28:26.835
support off campus in the community to
make it a university. And once that

00:28:26.868 --> 00:28:34.467
happened, I don't think any other
school has moved as fast as they issue,

00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:37.456
correct me if I'm wrong

00:28:37.489 --> 00:28:41.377
compared to all of them. But the issue
did move pretty fast. Well,

00:28:41.410 --> 00:28:47.236
compared to some, it moved pretty
fast. Was it a lot different though

00:28:47.269 --> 00:28:52.717
coming here and teaching adults
instead of kids and teaching how to teach

00:28:52.750 --> 00:28:56.795
and how did you make that adjustment,
it wasn't a big adjustment because

00:28:56.828 --> 00:28:59.276
back in Indiana

00:28:59.309 --> 00:29:07.309
I tried to, I tried, I did teach
adults to read and write and to converse

00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:17.535
with each other and these things just
all came together because you can't

00:29:17.568 --> 00:29:23.166
separate too easily one from the
other. And I thought that was tremendous

00:29:23.199 --> 00:29:31.199
to have a, a large group of adults who
were not very good at reading or

00:29:32.289 --> 00:29:38.085
very limited to get excited like kids
in the first grade about making

00:29:38.118 --> 00:29:42.736
accomplishments. And that's when I
caught fire. I just loved it. So I went

00:29:42.769 --> 00:29:49.535
into adult education and as you know,
this was during the war on poverty

00:29:49.568 --> 00:29:56.256
and many adults had not learned to
read and write, but they were adults.

00:29:56.289 --> 00:30:03.887
So I had to back up and assist in
teaching adults to read and to write and

00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:08.976
to understand. And that was another
challenge. But I don't think there's

00:30:09.009 --> 00:30:15.825
anything as nice or as great to a
human being. It's when adults come to

00:30:15.858 --> 00:30:20.936
Ukraine and I learned to read last
night. And I worked down in Guadalupe,

00:30:20.969 --> 00:30:27.226
Arizona under the Laurel Garcia in
charge of the adult uh education down

00:30:27.259 --> 00:30:35.186
there. And I can remember Jesse Acuna
was the first graduate of high

00:30:35.219 --> 00:30:39.075
school to go to college.

00:30:39.108 --> 00:30:46.236
She came through our adult ed program
to get her certificate

00:30:46.269 --> 00:30:52.526
that you were teaching. No, that was
because I assisted in developing a

00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:58.156
proposal that was funded under title.
I at that time, which provided the

00:30:58.189 --> 00:31:04.627
funds which the government gave to the
community in an attempt to increase

00:31:04.660 --> 00:31:12.660
the level of you might say academic
level to read and to survive. It was

00:31:13.959 --> 00:31:21.785
part of their program to maybe cut
down on the number of people that were

00:31:21.818 --> 00:31:27.545
unemployed and people who could not
read and write. Our objective was to

00:31:27.578 --> 00:31:33.526
improve the literacy level. So I
served as a consultant to what we call Go

00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:40.597
Go, which was the Guadalupe
organization. And we did so well that we were

00:31:40.630 --> 00:31:44.976
asked to help out over in California.
So I used to have to catch a plane

00:31:45.009 --> 00:31:49.367
on Friday to go to California to do
the same thing that I had done all

00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:54.065
week here. It was very exciting. And
I'll tell you, it's very touching to

00:31:54.098 --> 00:32:02.098
see adults learn to read and write.
And we even had a graduation for the,

00:32:03.380 --> 00:32:07.156
I was very excited. They had a lot of
people there and we felt good about

00:32:07.189 --> 00:32:13.186
it. That sounds great. Um Tell me a
little more about your career here at

00:32:13.219 --> 00:32:20.496
a su um When you first came here, you
were a faculty associated, faculty

00:32:20.529 --> 00:32:27.857
associate. And uh we had to teach a
class also in order to earn our

00:32:27.890 --> 00:32:34.226
livelihood. And that was very
challenging, but it was very, very nice. I

00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:39.926
really enjoyed the program and at one
point, they needed six instructors

00:32:39.959 --> 00:32:47.805
and I was one of the six selected in
education to assist with the large

00:32:47.838 --> 00:32:53.825
enrollment because our enrollment was
going up every year here at a su for

00:32:53.858 --> 00:33:00.377
quite some time. So, what did you
teach? I taught several different

00:33:00.410 --> 00:33:06.926
classes. One class. Well, actually the
first class was problems of

00:33:06.959 --> 00:33:12.717
teachers and coming fresh from the
classroom. I bet I was an expert on

00:33:12.750 --> 00:33:15.825
that.

00:33:15.858 --> 00:33:18.887
What were some of the problems that
you talked to them about? Discipline

00:33:18.920 --> 00:33:24.186
was number one and anybody who has
ever taught school will tell you that's

00:33:24.219 --> 00:33:31.387
the number one problem. And it's how
you handle these young people that

00:33:31.420 --> 00:33:39.420
makes it easy or difficult. And you
have to look at them as humans. You

00:33:40.650 --> 00:33:45.446
can't yell at them. You have to talk
to them, you have to show them, you

00:33:45.479 --> 00:33:50.446
have to also show them that you
respected them, that you love them, that

00:33:50.479 --> 00:33:54.627
you would see them through. And I'll
tell you what, you should not have a

00:33:54.660 --> 00:33:59.137
lot of problems. And this course
called problems of teachers. I've had

00:33:59.170 --> 00:34:04.406
teachers to call me and say it worked.
It worked.

00:34:04.439 --> 00:34:08.985
And I enjoyed that too.

00:34:09.018 --> 00:34:13.965
That was the first class that you
taught. Well, first few classes because

00:34:13.998 --> 00:34:19.296
I taught it several times over a
period of maybe a year and a half or two.

00:34:19.329 --> 00:34:23.727
You know, remember how big the college
was, the education department. It

00:34:23.760 --> 00:34:29.385
was very small, very small. I can't
tell you in numbers and I don't know

00:34:29.418 --> 00:34:35.287
whether anybody could give you an
accurate figure but it, it was small,

00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:42.376
but you could see it grow semester
after semester, the word got out. And

00:34:42.409 --> 00:34:48.997
when they made this university a
university that opened the door for so

00:34:49.030 --> 00:34:55.655
many other departments and colleges to
get on track and get moving. And I

00:34:55.688 --> 00:35:03.037
think that was the rebirth of Arizona
State University. And we got a lot

00:35:03.070 --> 00:35:09.146
of recognition and some of us served
as consultants in the community. I

00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:13.155
can name two or three schools that
called me to help them set up adult

00:35:13.188 --> 00:35:19.195
education programs and that didn't
hurt the university at all. In fact, I

00:35:19.228 --> 00:35:27.228
think it increased the enrollment
quite a bit over a number of years.

00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:33.026
It started as Arizona teachers
college. So it would be reasonable if the

00:35:33.059 --> 00:35:37.086
college of education would be a big
part of that.

00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:42.845
Um Who was the president of the
university when you came? Well, there was

00:35:42.878 --> 00:35:49.706
a, a turnover but uh I can remember uh
Homer Durham, uh who was the

00:35:49.739 --> 00:35:56.615
president during what I would call the
growth period, the person who

00:35:56.648 --> 00:36:01.967
preceded him. I'm not too sure about
because I didn't have the opportunity

00:36:02.000 --> 00:36:07.546
to bump shoulders with those people.
Like all the instructors did on their

00:36:07.579 --> 00:36:15.037
particular levels. But I know after
Homer Durham, I think he was in Utah,

00:36:15.070 --> 00:36:20.037
if I can remember and he came down and
became the president, I think he

00:36:20.070 --> 00:36:25.876
did a tremendous job in uh getting a
su ready for what I would call the

00:36:25.909 --> 00:36:32.037
next step.

00:36:32.070 --> 00:36:35.727
Talk a little bit more about your
career and how you progressed from, you

00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:41.057
know, teaching about the problems of
teachers to other things that you did.

00:36:41.090 --> 00:36:48.227
Well, I've, I've been involved in
organizations practically all of my

00:36:48.260 --> 00:36:55.876
life since I was a boy scout to tell
the truth about it. And during world

00:36:55.909 --> 00:37:03.909
war two, we didn't have a scout master
because everyone we had was drafted

00:37:04.099 --> 00:37:11.436
into the military and at the age of 14

00:37:11.469 --> 00:37:17.876
and I have to say this, I was like a
scout master, but I was not an adult.

00:37:17.909 --> 00:37:22.276
But there are no other men in our
community

00:37:22.309 --> 00:37:29.865
to take over the, the boy scout troop.
And so for several years, I was the

00:37:29.898 --> 00:37:36.945
person and it was, it was very, very
nice. The young guys were just great

00:37:36.978 --> 00:37:44.046
. I took them camping, we did
wonderful things and I helped them with

00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:48.997
their promotions from Tenderfoot to
second class to first class to Star

00:37:49.030 --> 00:37:55.146
Life and Eagle and the parents got
attached to me. And when it was

00:37:55.179 --> 00:37:59.057
announced that I was gonna go into the
service, they said you can't. And

00:37:59.090 --> 00:38:05.287
then I say I said, yes, I can. Yeah.
So did that experience helped you out

00:38:05.320 --> 00:38:11.997
when you were at a su then. Oh yes.
Every experience helped me out every

00:38:12.030 --> 00:38:19.467
time I went up the ladder and while I
was in high school, I was in ROTC.

00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:25.356
And so I had a background for the
military and of course, I was also an

00:38:25.389 --> 00:38:29.885
expert with a rifle. So that didn't
hurt because they wanted everybody

00:38:29.918 --> 00:38:37.918
they could during the Korean War uh to
come aboard. And I, I enjoyed being

00:38:38.228 --> 00:38:43.986
out on the range. The shooting range.
Show this

00:38:44.019 --> 00:38:47.936
what when you got here to a su though,
how did you climb your career

00:38:47.969 --> 00:38:52.727
ladder? Can you describe for us, the,
the steps you took to move up? Well

00:38:52.760 --> 00:38:58.756
, I started out as a faculty associate
and then the college of education

00:38:58.789 --> 00:39:03.425
needed some additional people to
handle the student teachers out in the

00:39:03.458 --> 00:39:10.066
field. And so they asked me if I would
be willing to work with student

00:39:10.099 --> 00:39:16.537
teachers in terms of discipline, their
log books, their planning lesson

00:39:16.570 --> 00:39:24.106
plans. It is and also in terms of the
other responsibilities teachers have

00:39:24.139 --> 00:39:29.517
and I did that and students evaluated
all of us and evidently I did. All

00:39:29.550 --> 00:39:32.037
right.

00:39:32.070 --> 00:39:39.727
And so I got an offer to become an
instructor. Well, I accepted, I was

00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:43.655
getting hungry. Now you got to
remember this

00:39:43.688 --> 00:39:50.077
and have the students started
evaluating us. And this is the time when

00:39:50.110 --> 00:39:57.166
instructors were evaluated. And
evidently I did. All right. So was an

00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:00.497
instructor or a step up from being a
faculty associate? Yeah, that was the

00:40:00.530 --> 00:40:05.615
next step. And then from then on, you
know, the routine. Yeah. Why don't

00:40:05.648 --> 00:40:09.206
you explain to us what, what is the
routine from then on? How did you move

00:40:09.239 --> 00:40:15.385
up from there? Well, I moved up to the
instructor position and I was

00:40:15.418 --> 00:40:21.385
notified and it was approved by the
dean of the college at that particular

00:40:21.418 --> 00:40:27.135
time. And then, uh, later on they
said, well, you ought to apply for the

00:40:27.168 --> 00:40:33.376
other position, assistant professor.
And that was accomplished. And that's

00:40:33.409 --> 00:40:39.695
how I started up from then on. It was
just a track that you had to follow.

00:40:39.728 --> 00:40:44.526
Just keep doing what you're doing, but
become more proficient. And I did

00:40:44.559 --> 00:40:48.416
, did you have to go back to school to
get more degrees and things too?

00:40:48.449 --> 00:40:55.626
Well, I had most of those but I did go
back to school because I thought

00:40:55.659 --> 00:41:01.365
there might have been something I
missed and I found out, uh, that they

00:41:01.398 --> 00:41:04.546
asked me if I would teach.

00:41:04.579 --> 00:41:08.236
Seems like you went from being a
student to the teacher pretty quickly.

00:41:08.269 --> 00:41:14.365
Well, actually I did. What degrees do
you hold? I have a Bachelor's a

00:41:14.398 --> 00:41:20.977
Masters and had the doctor at the EDD.
And that school was that from here

00:41:21.010 --> 00:41:26.186
that was from a, because, uh, I
couldn't get away long enough to go back

00:41:26.219 --> 00:41:32.236
to Indiana to do anything. And Indiana
was on a quarter basis and here we

00:41:32.269 --> 00:41:35.845
were on a semester basis.

00:41:35.878 --> 00:41:38.796
Yeah. Well, tell me about some of the
different things that you've done in

00:41:38.829 --> 00:41:41.436
your career. What stands out as being
some of the most interesting

00:41:41.469 --> 00:41:45.885
experiences that you've had.

00:41:45.918 --> 00:41:48.566
Well, actually

00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:54.845
every experience that I've had, it's
been a little different or unusual.

00:41:54.878 --> 00:42:02.537
Well, I, I think I indicated that one
experience when I, uh, went to, uh

00:42:02.570 --> 00:42:05.577
, Michigan City, Indiana

00:42:05.610 --> 00:42:10.066
and, uh, I sat in the electric chair.

00:42:10.099 --> 00:42:13.115
That was really an experience. I just
knew somebody was going to throw the

00:42:13.148 --> 00:42:19.436
switch on me. How did you happen to be
back there? Well, I graduated from

00:42:19.469 --> 00:42:23.936
high school back there and I'm the one
that recommended to the, we call it

00:42:23.969 --> 00:42:30.756
civics, civic teacher to let's go to a
prison. And let's see how it is.

00:42:30.789 --> 00:42:36.666
And he said, well, if you think you
can get into a prison the normal way,

00:42:36.699 --> 00:42:42.425
uh, you write a letter and I wrote a
letter and the warning said, we'd be

00:42:42.458 --> 00:42:48.827
glad to have you. So we had the, all
the paperwork to fill out. And, uh,

00:42:48.860 --> 00:42:56.155
we went to Indiana State Prison and
from then on, we didn't have as many

00:42:56.188 --> 00:43:02.287
problems after that. Going back year
after year, the precedent had been

00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:09.827
set and they claimed at that time. And
the Sergeant Sergeant Al Guzzy, he

00:43:09.860 --> 00:43:16.796
said, you know, J wrote Delinquency
has been on a down scale ever since

00:43:16.829 --> 00:43:23.916
you guys went to the prison. We saw
some of our classmates in prison and

00:43:23.949 --> 00:43:30.267
the word got around. So it may have
had in the back. I don't know. So when

00:43:30.300 --> 00:43:35.166
you went to the Michigan prison, was
that through a su? Well, no, that was

00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:41.405
not through a su that was through our
high school senior class. But every

00:43:41.438 --> 00:43:47.376
student in the graduating class could
not go because we had 1012, 1500 in

00:43:47.409 --> 00:43:50.526
graduating classes.

00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:55.126
So, that was, that was, uh, well, what
about some of the things that you

00:43:55.159 --> 00:43:58.537
did at a su that were interesting?

00:43:58.570 --> 00:44:06.186
Well, it's hard to pick out one thing
that was interesting. There was just

00:44:06.219 --> 00:44:12.026
, I thought every day was interesting.
A new problem that had to be taken

00:44:12.059 --> 00:44:18.467
care of. But I think my previous
experience of working in the military

00:44:18.500 --> 00:44:23.247
always brought about a new challenge
or a new way or something that should

00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:29.997
be done. I wish I could find or think
of one that would be exciting or

00:44:30.030 --> 00:44:37.586
interesting. But to me, everything
that I did was interesting. I think if

00:44:37.619 --> 00:44:41.655
you don't like your job, you're not
going to do a very good job at it. But

00:44:41.688 --> 00:44:47.287
everything was so interesting. I tried
to improve it and make it better or

00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:52.175
make it easier for students to
understand what are some of the, the things

00:44:52.208 --> 00:44:59.327
that you improved? Uh I improved in
terms of what we would say, audio

00:44:59.360 --> 00:45:05.827
visuals that we use to get students
excited. A picture is worth, you know

00:45:05.860 --> 00:45:13.227
, so many words and I resorted to that
and believe it or not, a picture is

00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:21.260
worth more than 1000 words and you
should. And so I used more audio visual

00:45:21.289 --> 00:45:26.486
aids to get mod points over and it
worked real well. Give me some examples

00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:31.445
of how you did that. Well, I would do
a combination of lecture and

00:45:31.478 --> 00:45:37.807
demonstration and in the
demonstration, this would tell other potential

00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:42.827
teachers things or at least give them
ideas about what they can do to make

00:45:42.860 --> 00:45:50.860
their presentations more exciting and
uh even using cartoons

00:45:51.309 --> 00:45:59.309
or just putting it in writing. But
have it flashed on the screen also is

00:45:59.938 --> 00:46:05.445
motivating too in terms of how do you
outline history or historical events

00:46:05.478 --> 00:46:11.115
and just doing that? But having visual
aids to assist you makes it easier

00:46:11.148 --> 00:46:16.655
for the students to copy and write
down rather than hearing the verbal all

00:46:16.688 --> 00:46:24.688
the time. So I found that having the
visual aids was quite an asset.

00:46:25.769 --> 00:46:28.425
Is there, is there anything that
you're particularly proud of that you

00:46:28.458 --> 00:46:31.776
accomplished during your career?

00:46:31.809 --> 00:46:39.809
Well, it's very difficult for me to
talk about myself. But I, I felt that

00:46:39.949 --> 00:46:46.787
I learned a lot from people who had
more experience and better positions

00:46:46.820 --> 00:46:54.666
than I had. And what I tried to do was
to find ways that I could make my

00:46:54.699 --> 00:47:01.727
classes more exciting, more attractive
and more intact with our

00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:07.595
competitors. Because when I came
along, movies were a great asset and kids

00:47:07.628 --> 00:47:12.736
would go to the movie. But when they
came to my class, not only did they

00:47:12.769 --> 00:47:18.517
get a movie, they got a lecture and so
I had them to respond and to

00:47:18.550 --> 00:47:23.106
evaluate and they did and they were
very honest and that was an asset to

00:47:23.139 --> 00:47:31.139
me so that it would help me do a much
better job in terms of areas that we

00:47:31.228 --> 00:47:37.057
often talk about, but students really
don't understand. But when you use a

00:47:37.090 --> 00:47:44.836
combination of the oral with the what
we call the supports, audio visual

00:47:44.869 --> 00:47:51.497
support makes it tremendous. And then
many of my students were teachers

00:47:51.530 --> 00:47:56.626
already and they went back to their
classrooms and tried these things and

00:47:56.659 --> 00:47:59.526
they would come back or they would
call me late at night saying it worked

00:47:59.559 --> 00:48:03.267
, it worked. Thank you. Thank you,
this kind of thing. And I feel good

00:48:03.300 --> 00:48:09.227
about that. Are there any of your
students that stand out in your mind? I

00:48:09.260 --> 00:48:17.186
had some real great students. They
were not a problem at all. They came

00:48:17.219 --> 00:48:23.606
into the classroom with excitement and
in fact, some would come and say I

00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:29.126
understand your enrollment is full.
Can I get a petition and get in your

00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:33.885
class? And I said I have nothing to do
with that. You have to see the

00:48:33.918 --> 00:48:39.885
department chairman. And I figured,
well, my class would be all right. I

00:48:39.918 --> 00:48:44.385
remember one time 15 more students
came to the class that I had seats for

00:48:44.418 --> 00:48:47.126
.

00:48:47.159 --> 00:48:51.727
I tried to figure that one out, but I
didn't get with the department

00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:56.026
chairman and give him a rough time or
not. He just upped the number of

00:48:56.059 --> 00:49:01.166
students that I could have in my
class. And I felt that that was a signal

00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:08.006
for me. So I find you some more chairs
and we had to do that. We had to do

00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:14.227
that. But I was very very proud of my
students, very proud of my students.

00:49:14.260 --> 00:49:18.307
And then he wanted recommendations and
I would give them honest

00:49:18.340 --> 00:49:23.885
recommendations, but I would have a
conference with them first. And, uh,

00:49:23.918 --> 00:49:28.247
they said, well, I didn't know I did
that poorly or I appreciate you

00:49:28.280 --> 00:49:33.586
taking it high. And I think on the
collegiate level, sometimes our

00:49:33.619 --> 00:49:38.077
students need to talk to us, but they
don't know how to go about it. They

00:49:38.110 --> 00:49:44.747
know they have a problem but they
can't figure out a good way to

00:49:44.780 --> 00:49:49.776
communicate with the professor. And I
always made my, I made myself

00:49:49.809 --> 00:49:54.856
available even on Saturdays and I like
that because I didn't have to rush

00:49:54.889 --> 00:49:57.796
off to class.

00:49:57.829 --> 00:50:01.546
And you were here on at a su during
the sixties and that was the time when

00:50:01.579 --> 00:50:05.517
there were a lot of protests about all
sorts of things. Um Did you get

00:50:05.550 --> 00:50:11.057
involved in any of that? You mean the
protest? There was the civil rights

00:50:11.090 --> 00:50:17.356
, the Chicano movement, the Vietnam
war protest? Well, I got involved but

00:50:17.389 --> 00:50:22.276
not in a, in the position of

00:50:22.309 --> 00:50:26.155
mass rallies and things of that
nature.

00:50:26.188 --> 00:50:30.986
But I'll tell you one little thing
that was funny. We had a problem here

00:50:31.019 --> 00:50:39.019
on campus at a su and uh the College
of Law had opened up. Prick had

00:50:40.030 --> 00:50:46.227
conferred with me about a lot of
things along with John Morris and, and a

00:50:46.260 --> 00:50:52.267
couple other professors and there was
a big rally going on in front of the

00:50:52.300 --> 00:50:57.057
college before the college of law is
now.

00:50:57.090 --> 00:51:04.646
And, uh, this lasted off and on half
of the day

00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:09.477
and then about one o'clock in the
morning, I got a call from the campus

00:51:09.510 --> 00:51:13.345
police or Tempe police and we need you
on campus right away. We got a

00:51:13.378 --> 00:51:15.546
problem.

00:51:15.579 --> 00:51:21.046
And I said, well, if there's a
problem, why don't you, the police handle

00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:25.227
it? Well, the crowd was about 2000

00:51:25.260 --> 00:51:32.086
and I don't think they had 2000 police
officers at that particular time.

00:51:32.119 --> 00:51:37.635
And the police were standing there in
kind of a wedge shape

00:51:37.668 --> 00:51:42.666
and they had, uh, they, they didn't
have any weapons drawn. Don't get me

00:51:42.699 --> 00:51:48.046
wrong. But they had to hand on the
clubs and what have you and this group

00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:53.175
of students, they were really not that
bad.

00:51:53.208 --> 00:51:59.517
But when I came there, I know the
Tempe police just ushered me up front

00:51:59.550 --> 00:52:05.526
and I'm standing there and that's all
I had to do was stand there.

00:52:05.559 --> 00:52:11.037
The crowd dispersed. What were they
there for? I don't know. And I have

00:52:11.070 --> 00:52:17.436
never asked, they dispersed. And one
police officer said, just like Moses

00:52:17.469 --> 00:52:20.695
,

00:52:20.728 --> 00:52:23.486
you must have had some sort of
reputation for them to call you though.

00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:30.376
What made them call you? Well, I knew
the chief because he had been on the

00:52:30.409 --> 00:52:36.327
campus police department and, uh, he
called me, I don't want to give his

00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:40.856
name, but it wouldn't take much to
figure out who. But anyway, it was very

00:52:40.889 --> 00:52:46.336
, very nice. And, and then right after
that, he said, you know, it would

00:52:46.369 --> 00:52:51.807
be nice if we had a civilian advisory
board and I said it would be the

00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:58.977
wise thing to do and many, many cities
have police advisory board. I

00:52:59.010 --> 00:53:04.717
worked with Scottsdale and the Phoenix
Police Department as well. It's not

00:53:04.750 --> 00:53:11.756
that bad. They just have to act like
regular people.

00:53:11.789 --> 00:53:14.635
Were you involved at all in the civil
rights movements that were going on

00:53:14.668 --> 00:53:22.668
in Phoenix? Yes. Yes. Yes. I was
involved in Phoenix and other parts of

00:53:24.010 --> 00:53:28.896
Arizona, but it was never the hate
type thing. It was just, we were

00:53:28.929 --> 00:53:36.736
marching for equal rights or certain
rights and uh I don't get involved in

00:53:36.769 --> 00:53:41.256
the violence. I've seen too much
violence in my life. What were you

00:53:41.289 --> 00:53:46.736
marching for specifically? Do you
remember each situation was a little

00:53:46.769 --> 00:53:51.717
different. It was mostly for
recognition and that people have a right to

00:53:51.750 --> 00:53:57.037
become a part of, they should enjoy
these rights like all people.

00:53:57.070 --> 00:54:02.706
Americans are so called endowed with
life, liberty and the pursuit of

00:54:02.739 --> 00:54:09.997
happiness. I know there was a big
demonstration at the accommodation.

00:54:10.030 --> 00:54:15.095
I don't think I was down there the day
that they marched. But see, I was

00:54:15.128 --> 00:54:18.865
flying back and forth to California
helping them out too and I missed on a

00:54:18.898 --> 00:54:23.827
lot of the things that were local, you
see over in California, they had

00:54:23.860 --> 00:54:27.385
fairly good leadership and we had good
leadership here. But the leaders

00:54:27.418 --> 00:54:34.057
here. They were in charge and I didn't
want to disrupt what plans they had.

00:54:34.090 --> 00:54:39.396
In fact, I agreed with some of the
things and I disagreed with others but

00:54:39.429 --> 00:54:43.376
each city is just a little different
for what particular reasons. I don't

00:54:43.409 --> 00:54:50.986
know. But each time the map had to be
redrawn.

00:54:51.019 --> 00:54:55.896
You, you weren't down to the Capitol
for that. Well, I, I went down to the

00:54:55.929 --> 00:55:01.606
Capitol but I can't remember exactly
just which time it was, whether it

00:55:01.639 --> 00:55:06.166
was to protest. I guess they were
really pushing the public accommodations

00:55:06.199 --> 00:55:08.787
bill at the legislature.

00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:12.807
Well, I could have been down there. I
could have been down, I've seen

00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:17.017
pictures where they did a sit in,
outside the governor's office and had to

00:55:17.050 --> 00:55:24.296
be, I went down there but I don't
remember being in on the sit in, but

00:55:24.329 --> 00:55:28.717
there are several groups, there are
some marches in downtown Phoenix. Hi.

00:55:28.750 --> 00:55:34.615
Right. I recall some of those. Right.
But I can remember the problem with

00:55:34.648 --> 00:55:40.626
the flag that was not lowered here on
campus. You remember that? The flag

00:55:40.659 --> 00:55:46.206
, which was Vietnam War, didn't it? I
think it was a combination, but I

00:55:46.239 --> 00:55:52.066
think it was mostly on Vietnam but you
had the same people or the same

00:55:52.099 --> 00:55:59.695
types of people picketing and
demanding certain things, but we didn't have

00:55:59.728 --> 00:56:03.385
anyone to go to jail.

00:56:03.418 --> 00:56:09.365
And so we, we can be proud of that,
that we broke into the civil rights

00:56:09.398 --> 00:56:14.827
and many of these things without real
violence.

00:56:14.860 --> 00:56:19.276
And that says something for a
university. They were having problems on

00:56:19.309 --> 00:56:25.977
many campuses throughout the United
States. But here there was a different

00:56:26.010 --> 00:56:33.537
kind of a student, I believe out there
that said violence breeds violence.

00:56:33.570 --> 00:56:41.570
And I think that's kind of the
unwritten code that we went by.

00:56:41.760 --> 00:56:45.296
What sort of advice do you have for
young people today who are trying to

00:56:45.329 --> 00:56:49.566
decide what to do with their lives?

00:56:49.599 --> 00:56:56.967
Well, individuals vary from one
extreme to the other. And first of all,

00:56:57.000 --> 00:57:01.307
young people need to stop and think

00:57:01.340 --> 00:57:07.796
and work toward making some of the
things happen that they have control

00:57:07.829 --> 00:57:14.376
over. And then from that point on, I
have advocated talk to someone who's

00:57:14.409 --> 00:57:22.409
already in a position like that and
get their particular advice. Now,

00:57:23.739 --> 00:57:28.827
now, whatever they give you and
whatever they tell you you have to do, you

00:57:28.860 --> 00:57:34.267
start making plans for that. And I
found out that's pretty accurate. They

00:57:34.300 --> 00:57:38.706
ought to do that. Now with people who
have called me and said, I heard you

00:57:38.739 --> 00:57:43.845
speak at church, I heard you do this,
but you never said anything about

00:57:43.878 --> 00:57:47.727
juvenile delinquency. I said, well,
first of all, if you do the others,

00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:50.706
you're not going to have it.

00:57:50.739 --> 00:57:55.635
And one person came to me and said,
you know, you're right, we wait until

00:57:55.668 --> 00:58:01.327
they get in trouble before we start
reprimanding them. Well, why don't you

00:58:01.360 --> 00:58:06.615
do something to preclude that? And so
some people followed that and they

00:58:06.648 --> 00:58:11.615
said it works. And so, so so said it,
well, it didn't work, but it depends

00:58:11.648 --> 00:58:19.195
on who that person is and how much he
has respect.

00:58:19.228 --> 00:58:21.986
Those are. Most of the questions that
I had for you. Was there anything

00:58:22.019 --> 00:58:25.776
you wanted to bring up the day that I
didn't ask you about? Well, you

00:58:25.809 --> 00:58:30.997
brought up a lot of things made me
kind of feel guilty and I didn't know

00:58:31.030 --> 00:58:35.865
enough to tell you. No, I, I've
enjoyed life. I've enjoyed working with

00:58:35.898 --> 00:58:41.635
young people back in Indiana. Um There
was a swimming pool, there was a

00:58:41.668 --> 00:58:47.796
white swimming pool, it was called Tuy
swimming pool. And of course, we

00:58:47.829 --> 00:58:55.356
didn't have a swimming pool. And uh I
went to the chief of police

00:58:55.389 --> 00:58:59.276
and he said, well, you go see Al
Guzzy. So I went to Al Guzzy and Al Guzzy

00:58:59.309 --> 00:59:04.986
said you will be swimming in that pool
when you get ready. So I became an

00:59:05.019 --> 00:59:09.615
honorary member of the police
department, my sister and I really, and they

00:59:09.648 --> 00:59:13.537
opened the pool up and all of these
people that said it won't work and to

00:59:13.570 --> 00:59:18.416
do this, none of those things happen.

00:59:18.449 --> 00:59:22.997
Both groups were put on notice that if
something happens, then this is

00:59:23.030 --> 00:59:25.787
going to happen,

00:59:25.820 --> 00:59:29.796
human beings are smart enough to know

00:59:29.829 --> 00:59:35.486
right from wrong. And that goes for
all groups of people. I don't care who

00:59:35.519 --> 00:59:41.686
they are rich or poor. It goes for all
people. And I've enjoyed working

00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:47.057
with groups of this nature. And they
said, well, no one ever told us this

00:59:47.090 --> 00:59:55.090
. I expect it to be that. But I said
this when World War Two broke out,

00:59:57.168 --> 01:00:02.316
nobody talked about discrimination
hardly in the circus and said, we had

01:00:02.349 --> 01:00:08.186
to unite and fight an enemy.

01:00:08.219 --> 01:00:13.106
And people said now that you've
mentioned it, I recall because if you

01:00:13.139 --> 01:00:18.517
think about it, there were segregated
groups in the army. The 92nd of

01:00:18.550 --> 01:00:24.345
which I'm familiar with was an African
American group. But you put that

01:00:24.378 --> 01:00:29.695
group on the field with white people.
And I'll tell you, it's a hell of an

01:00:29.728 --> 01:00:31.896
army.

01:00:31.929 --> 01:00:35.057
People forget about

01:00:35.090 --> 01:00:42.146
uh color and differences. And I think
this has opened up ground for women

01:00:42.179 --> 01:00:49.175
too. I think they started seeing ways
to acquire rights for rights that

01:00:49.208 --> 01:00:53.816
should not have happened or illegal
rights, barring women from political

01:00:53.849 --> 01:01:00.646
office and certain jobs in politics.
All of that's wrong.

01:01:00.679 --> 01:01:08.365
And, and I think that movement, the
civil rights movement open the eyes of

01:01:08.398 --> 01:01:10.816
America.

01:01:10.849 --> 01:01:18.436
And I think we found new potential
intellect and great scientists and

01:01:18.469 --> 01:01:25.095
great researchers. As a result of
being an open society,

01:01:25.128 --> 01:01:30.686
I've always felt that women were
mistreated

01:01:30.719 --> 01:01:34.115
when you look at suffrage. And if you
go back from a historical

01:01:34.148 --> 01:01:38.635
perspective, they've been mistreated

01:01:38.668 --> 01:01:45.456
and I knew how I felt when I was
mistreated because I was supposed to go

01:01:45.489 --> 01:01:50.595
to camp Crosley. I don't know whether
you've heard of that camp, but it's

01:01:50.628 --> 01:01:55.836
a camp where all of the young men on
safety patrol. Now, safety patrol was

01:01:55.869 --> 01:02:01.997
, was a group of patrol boys who
patrolled the streets when kids were out

01:02:02.030 --> 01:02:08.666
of school to help them across the
street. And, uh, I was denied the right

01:02:08.699 --> 01:02:13.155
to go to that camp. Now, I could have
burned down the building, but I

01:02:13.188 --> 01:02:18.856
talked my way through it and before
long they invited me to go to camp

01:02:18.889 --> 01:02:24.517
Crosley after I had been invited
another camp to go to the other 10, I had

01:02:24.550 --> 01:02:29.945
to go to the other one, but it was
good. It was an eye opener to learn

01:02:29.978 --> 01:02:32.635
human behavior

01:02:32.668 --> 01:02:35.256
and human restrictions.

01:02:35.289 --> 01:02:42.945
OK. I did work with Mister Benedict
and there were several little projects

01:02:42.978 --> 01:02:48.595
and he used some of my advice and I
used some of his, what kind of

01:02:48.628 --> 01:02:50.936
projects

01:02:50.969 --> 01:02:58.845
there are so many but one was a
reading project on teaching young people

01:02:58.878 --> 01:03:05.365
how to read and how to understand. I
did a special one on vocabulary

01:03:05.398 --> 01:03:11.385
development processes and procedures,
which I haven't seen that one yet.

01:03:11.418 --> 01:03:15.876
But anyway, I'm sure it worked out.
Ok.

01:03:15.909 --> 01:03:19.967
Did you wanna follow up with that? Um
Did you have I think they had a

01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:24.787
question. Uh my question. Can you
mentioned Dennis Keegan? And by the way

01:03:24.820 --> 01:03:28.537
, John, you and I met when we went to
our retirement luncheon, I think

01:03:28.570 --> 01:03:35.227
about two years ago, I think we said
we did, we did uh you, you did

01:03:35.260 --> 01:03:38.695
mention Dennis Keegan and that was
probably what you were doing just

01:03:38.728 --> 01:03:43.655
before you retired, you continue
education off campus project. So you

01:03:43.688 --> 01:03:49.936
could describe that a little bit more
what we were doing uh at that time.

01:03:49.969 --> 01:03:52.365
Uh

01:03:52.398 --> 01:03:59.416
Well, I need to narrow that down
because off campus was so big. We handled

01:03:59.449 --> 01:04:04.626
overseas study programs in uh England.

01:04:04.659 --> 01:04:10.217
We had one with Scotland Yard, which
was very, very interesting. We had a

01:04:10.250 --> 01:04:16.425
special language program, the
University of Lille France, which was very

01:04:16.458 --> 01:04:23.356
interesting. We had another one in
China and I can't remember the real

01:04:23.389 --> 01:04:28.967
focal part of that one, but I enjoyed
working with overseas credit

01:04:29.000 --> 01:04:33.756
programs. Now tell me what is an
overseas credit program?

01:04:33.789 --> 01:04:37.135
Students from a su go there or do
people from there come here. How does

01:04:37.168 --> 01:04:45.115
that work? Well, in this case, or in
most of our cases, we took a select

01:04:45.148 --> 01:04:50.916
group of people from A U to go to
England.

01:04:50.949 --> 01:04:58.635
We took a group of people from ASU who
wanted to learn French

01:04:58.668 --> 01:05:06.166
a little more better. And we went to
Lille France and we often did that

01:05:06.199 --> 01:05:13.905
because our directors of those
programs were interested in French or

01:05:13.938 --> 01:05:19.405
Spanish. And in those cases, they went
to those countries. We had a real

01:05:19.438 --> 01:05:26.405
good one in Guatemala. How long would
they go for? Well, that would depend

01:05:26.438 --> 01:05:32.695
on the credit hours involved, but most
of them were five weeks to three

01:05:32.728 --> 01:05:38.247
months roughly. And we had a year
round program in England

01:05:38.280 --> 01:05:42.376
what were they learning in England?
Well,

01:05:42.409 --> 01:05:50.409
some of it was poetry literature and
uh also Scotland Yard.

01:05:54.208 --> 01:05:58.095
What law enforcement,

01:05:58.128 --> 01:06:01.336
what about Guatemala? Tell me about
that. That was mostly a language

01:06:01.369 --> 01:06:04.816
program in Guatemala

01:06:04.849 --> 01:06:07.706
and mentioned in China.

01:06:07.739 --> 01:06:13.655
I'm not too sure about the one in
China, whether it was mostly in language

01:06:13.688 --> 01:06:19.256
or just sightseeing from a historical
point of view and the history of

01:06:19.289 --> 01:06:24.557
China. I'm not so sure I did not go on
that.

01:06:24.590 --> 01:06:29.345
I was too busy setting them up. I
never did get a chance to go, but I

01:06:29.378 --> 01:06:34.506
would have to design the brochures and
set them up. We have to check the

01:06:34.539 --> 01:06:38.695
fees and have to get approval from the
department chairman. And it was

01:06:38.728 --> 01:06:43.006
quite a tough thing. Then students had
to get their passports and that

01:06:43.039 --> 01:06:46.695
took a lot,

01:06:46.728 --> 01:06:51.017
but I enjoyed it and that's what you
were doing when you retired just

01:06:51.050 --> 01:06:57.186
before I retired. But I was doing more
than that because I think we had,

01:06:57.219 --> 01:07:01.247
well, we had 101,000 students over and
above the regular enrollment of a

01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:09.280
SU. And that's a big program. Awful
big. We had special programs that we

01:07:10.438 --> 01:07:16.807
started on the west side and we had so
many on the west side, we had to

01:07:16.840 --> 01:07:19.905
set up a west side campus

01:07:19.938 --> 01:07:26.486
and we ran into the same problem on
the east side, but we never set up an

01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:30.997
east side campus because a SU was
gonna considered on the east side, so to

01:07:31.030 --> 01:07:36.477
speak. So that worked out real good. I
think at one time we had 100 and 50

01:07:36.510 --> 01:07:44.510
some places where we had off campus
programs. It's a lot to keep track of

01:07:45.019 --> 01:07:51.827
busy at work. It's a lot to keep track
of, and a lot of students love

01:07:51.860 --> 01:07:58.206
those campuses because generally they
lived in that area and parking was

01:07:58.239 --> 01:08:05.537
kind of restricted at ESU, at that
particular time, we didn't have a lot

01:08:05.570 --> 01:08:12.885
of parking lots for those students who
came for 440 class or a 640 class.

01:08:12.918 --> 01:08:18.576
But the 640 was not a problem because
the regular students would be gone

01:08:18.609 --> 01:08:26.286
or back to the door at that time. But
we struggled and we figured out ways.

01:08:26.319 --> 01:08:30.866
You, you started a west side campus.
Is that, that's right. Tell me about

01:08:30.899 --> 01:08:35.476
how that got started because we had so
many classes on the west side and

01:08:35.509 --> 01:08:40.796
the students wanted some relief. They
didn't want to always have to come

01:08:40.829 --> 01:08:48.829
to an. So we had a young lady who I
think was on the city council at that

01:08:48.878 --> 01:08:55.805
time and she supported the idea of a
west side campus at City Council at

01:08:55.838 --> 01:08:58.905
Phoenix.

01:08:58.938 --> 01:09:04.356
Well, I'm trying to remember her name
and normally names don't escape me.

01:09:04.389 --> 01:09:10.094
But when I'm pressured by the element
of the time, I can't think too well

01:09:10.127 --> 01:09:15.536
right now. So, do you remember
approximately when that was that you that

01:09:15.569 --> 01:09:22.045
the west side of campus? Got started.

01:09:22.078 --> 01:09:27.486
So, you, you're making me go beyond my
age and I, I would say that was

01:09:27.519 --> 01:09:32.014
about, uh, 6869.

01:09:32.047 --> 01:09:37.996
I may be off on that, but about 68 or
69.

01:09:38.029 --> 01:09:41.897
Oh, yes. Did you have, when did you,
you didn't have buildings or anything

01:09:41.930 --> 01:09:44.717
then, or did you have the land? How
did you get it started? We used the

01:09:44.750 --> 01:09:46.956
high school

01:09:46.989 --> 01:09:53.805
and also some of the elementary
schools, we would have a room or two at

01:09:53.838 --> 01:09:58.135
certain schools in certain areas

01:09:58.168 --> 01:10:03.607
and that courses were being taught.

01:10:03.640 --> 01:10:09.616
Well, it ran the whole spectrum, it
ran the whole spectrum.

01:10:09.649 --> 01:10:15.086
That's where, what describe some of
them. Well, the courses and uh

01:10:15.119 --> 01:10:18.726
historical research,

01:10:18.759 --> 01:10:25.836
most of the psychology courses that we
had were offered on an extension

01:10:25.869 --> 01:10:32.527
basis. And most of those courses that
we call Cork courses that would

01:10:32.560 --> 01:10:37.226
serve the master's student or students
who were working toward a master's

01:10:37.259 --> 01:10:45.259
degree that they would need to meet
the requirements of the university.

01:10:48.239 --> 01:10:55.036
The national, I have another John,
here's one that I know you're a very

01:10:55.069 --> 01:11:01.737
diplomatic person, but I know when you
came here in the fifties sixties

01:11:01.770 --> 01:11:08.897
that the uh integration was not really
here. Uh So finding a place to live

01:11:08.930 --> 01:11:11.277
in the community,

01:11:11.310 --> 01:11:15.406
it might have been a problem for you.
Uh you might talk about that and

01:11:15.439 --> 01:11:19.296
then about other African Americans who
were on campus and teaching, who

01:11:19.329 --> 01:11:22.626
might have mentored you.

01:11:22.659 --> 01:11:25.326
I don't think there were many, I was a
student in early sixties and I

01:11:25.359 --> 01:11:31.416
don't remember many. Well, let's start
with that. Can we do that? Well, I

01:11:31.449 --> 01:11:34.506
was a mentor.

01:11:34.539 --> 01:11:40.116
There were none, there were none here
before me. You were the first

01:11:40.149 --> 01:11:44.796
African American teacher on campus.
Yes. That's what they tell me. And I

01:11:44.829 --> 01:11:50.925
didn't see anybody else

01:11:50.958 --> 01:11:56.805
during my early period of time. I
would have but I don't like to talk

01:11:56.838 --> 01:12:03.536
about myself, but I was the first and
the only one for a while then after

01:12:03.569 --> 01:12:11.569
me came, several other instructors.
Now, Art Carter became Associate Dean

01:12:11.779 --> 01:12:18.576
of Student Affairs. If I can remember
correctly, John P. Morris Deceased

01:12:18.609 --> 01:12:25.175
was selected by Willard Pedrick.
Petrick was the dean of the founding dean

01:12:25.208 --> 01:12:29.976
of the College of Law and he came to
me and wanted to know if I would help

01:12:30.009 --> 01:12:36.635
him and I told him I would. So John
Morris came and uh he was hired by

01:12:36.668 --> 01:12:42.055
Dean Pedrick and then let's see

01:12:42.088 --> 01:12:47.956
over in vice President George Ham's
office,

01:12:47.989 --> 01:12:55.885
Bernie Jackson was hired as assistant
Dean of Student Affairs. I believe

01:12:55.918 --> 01:13:01.527
it was called, I think George M had
student affairs under him at that time.

01:13:01.560 --> 01:13:07.437
And there were several others and they
were nice dedicated students. And

01:13:07.470 --> 01:13:13.206
the reason I can speak so frankly
about these, they all looked to me and

01:13:13.239 --> 01:13:19.836
we had a black caucus and what we
tried to do was to help the university

01:13:19.869 --> 01:13:25.256
get the best possible person that they
could to work on this particular

01:13:25.289 --> 01:13:33.006
campus. It was very effective, very
effective. Eugene Grigsby, he had

01:13:33.039 --> 01:13:41.039
taught off campus, uh, in the field of
art. Gene, there was a second one.

01:13:41.180 --> 01:13:44.015
I can't think of his name, but it
would come to me this other person died

01:13:44.048 --> 01:13:48.456
, by the way. Um

01:13:48.489 --> 01:13:52.126
Gene Grigsby was,

01:13:52.159 --> 01:13:58.706
was the key person if I can remember
correctly. And he was a very, very

01:13:58.739 --> 01:14:05.656
nice person. In fact, we had a big
reception for him back in April or May

01:14:05.689 --> 01:14:12.256
of this year. So he came after you
though, officially. Yes. But he had

01:14:12.289 --> 01:14:17.326
taught a few classes

01:14:17.359 --> 01:14:20.777
off campus

01:14:20.810 --> 01:14:24.487
all about the same time. I came

01:14:24.520 --> 01:14:28.496
African American and there was another
person Rick Woods. Now he's dead

01:14:28.529 --> 01:14:36.529
also and he was well accepted into the
School of Art and I cannot complain.

01:14:42.000 --> 01:14:44.000
I was well accepted. At least I think I was treated well by the students

01:14:50.979 --> 01:14:57.456
and by the faculty. And I can't say
enough about the faculty. I've had

01:14:57.489 --> 01:15:05.326
more people to leave notes on my
windshield of my car or they send me a

01:15:05.359 --> 01:15:11.456
note and said, I can't sign my name to
say nice things. And I was deeply

01:15:11.489 --> 01:15:16.675
touched and moved by those people.

01:15:16.708 --> 01:15:22.237
If you'll turn the camera off, I'll
tell you a private little story

01:15:22.270 --> 01:15:29.607
because I don't think this should be
out to the public. Um, one night

01:15:29.640 --> 01:15:33.925
after class,

01:15:33.958 --> 01:15:39.946
I started to gam that where I parked
because parking was free and you

01:15:39.979 --> 01:15:44.805
could always find a space over in
Gamage unless your class was on the

01:15:44.838 --> 01:15:48.116
night that they had a big performance.
You leave your car at home and you

01:15:48.149 --> 01:15:53.756
walk here, uh, a student

01:15:53.789 --> 01:16:01.555
got into a little problem. I don't
know what it was and I guess some

01:16:01.588 --> 01:16:08.916
people were saying Lynch. So, and so
now I didn't hear that but I can only

01:16:08.949 --> 01:16:14.027
go by something that I heard

01:16:14.060 --> 01:16:17.286
and all of a sudden

01:16:17.319 --> 01:16:25.319
I looked around and it was like a
swarm of bees coming toward me.

01:16:27.458 --> 01:16:35.277
Well, you, you don't know whether to
run hop or fly. So I stood still and

01:16:35.310 --> 01:16:43.310
they came up to me and guess what?
They said we came to protect you

01:16:45.699 --> 01:16:50.336
something. I don't know what was going
on way in the back. I don't know

01:16:50.369 --> 01:16:55.876
what it was. I didn't raise any
objections. You didn't know why you needed

01:16:55.909 --> 01:17:03.909
protection. No, I did not. But I heard
later, uh a student had gotten mad

01:17:04.069 --> 01:17:07.366
and he had fired a pistol

01:17:07.399 --> 01:17:15.399
but no shot came in from my knowledge
toward me. And uh I was a little

01:17:16.449 --> 01:17:24.217
shaken by that, but I wasn't going to
run. Running is not in my nature.

01:17:24.250 --> 01:17:29.885
I'm an army veteran. I didn't run when
I faced the enemy. I'm not gonna

01:17:29.918 --> 01:17:33.406
run here in America.

01:17:33.439 --> 01:17:38.265
There weren't that many African
American students on campus were there? No

01:17:38.298 --> 01:17:44.987
, we never had a large number in
proportion to the statistics and the

01:17:45.020 --> 01:17:50.487
percentages you might see in Maricopa
County, we've never had a large

01:17:50.520 --> 01:17:55.897
number. Are you sort of a mentor for
those students? Not only was I a

01:17:55.930 --> 01:18:02.996
mentor, but I had to feed a lot of
them. No, I carried a lot of them home

01:18:03.029 --> 01:18:08.536
so they could get a, a decent meal. My
wife can verify that.

01:18:08.569 --> 01:18:14.265
And, uh, well, I, I'll just give you
one case. It was a mistake made by

01:18:14.298 --> 01:18:22.298
somebody, this person had a room in
the dorm and she

01:18:23.009 --> 01:18:28.656
thought her dormancy included the food

01:18:28.689 --> 01:18:33.706
and it was just a mistake. That's
really what it was. I don't think it was

01:18:33.739 --> 01:18:37.777
done on purpose, but she didn't have
any food. And that same thing

01:18:37.810 --> 01:18:44.626
happened to another negro male. And so
I carried them home with me and fed

01:18:44.659 --> 01:18:51.456
them and I did that quite often for
some reason, he couldn't pay his dorm

01:18:51.489 --> 01:18:55.616
fee or he didn't have his or he ran
out of money. They knew they could

01:18:55.649 --> 01:19:01.166
come to you. Yes. And then it reached
a point. I got more people involved

01:19:01.199 --> 01:19:07.777
and, and we took care of the students
during the holidays and not only did

01:19:07.810 --> 01:19:11.487
black students need this help, but the
white students also had the same

01:19:11.520 --> 01:19:15.366
problem, especially during the
Christmas holidays. They didn't have enough

01:19:15.399 --> 01:19:21.487
money to fly back to New York or to
Florida. And so they were taken into

01:19:21.520 --> 01:19:28.826
homes near the campus or in Phoenix.
So it was not universal, but it was

01:19:28.859 --> 01:19:31.536
not uncommon.

01:19:31.569 --> 01:19:35.226
Um, he asked about when you first came
to Phoenix. Did, where did you live

01:19:35.259 --> 01:19:41.786
when you first moved here? Well, I had
the best support I believe of

01:19:41.819 --> 01:19:47.756
anybody else uh who came now,

01:19:47.789 --> 01:19:55.789
Viola Smith was Barry Goldwater's
housekeeper. Now, Barry Goldwater had

01:19:56.350 --> 01:20:01.246
ties in my hometown, Muncie Indiana.
His wife came from there. Did you

01:20:01.279 --> 01:20:05.437
know that?

01:20:05.470 --> 01:20:10.326
And she knew me, but not that well, we
didn't socialize together or

01:20:10.359 --> 01:20:18.359
anything like that, but that helped me
to find the right people. So Viola

01:20:19.829 --> 01:20:26.675
Smith became my landlord and she had a
nice house on the west side. She

01:20:26.708 --> 01:20:31.546
wanted me to stay with her because we
called her aunt Vi was about 87

01:20:31.579 --> 01:20:36.196
years old and she wanted to have a man
in the house. Well, I had a car and

01:20:36.229 --> 01:20:41.015
she had no way of going shopping. So I
became the chauffeur of the chef

01:20:41.048 --> 01:20:45.857
and the whole thing and we got along
fine. There was nobody like a v if

01:20:45.890 --> 01:20:53.890
you did a wrong Barry Goldwater knew
it that night. I'm telling you the

01:20:54.208 --> 01:21:01.317
truth. And so I had probably one of
the best deals ever

01:21:01.350 --> 01:21:09.350
and I offered to pay and lie for
whatever she wanted. She said, no, you're

01:21:09.619 --> 01:21:14.836
not. I run this house and she looked
like she was the type of lady that

01:21:14.869 --> 01:21:20.987
read the house. So I said no, but I
got a chance to meet uh you know,

01:21:21.020 --> 01:21:28.086
Barry Goldwater at that time. And, and
a lot of people and I found out

01:21:28.119 --> 01:21:33.425
there were some more people from my
hometown living in Paradise Valley and

01:21:33.458 --> 01:21:40.107
gee whiz. I felt like I was at home.
It, it, it was very nice and then

01:21:40.140 --> 01:21:45.656
they would check on the, every so
often or I would see them somewhere and

01:21:45.689 --> 01:21:50.366
I enjoyed it. It was more of a small
town, wasn't it back then? I mean,

01:21:50.399 --> 01:21:55.187
people knew each other more. You mean
the Phoenix area? Yes. Well, people

01:21:55.220 --> 01:22:02.906
were a little bit more, I would say,
uh

01:22:02.939 --> 01:22:06.376
homogeneous,

01:22:06.409 --> 01:22:10.826
but it's when it becomes so large, you
don't know whether this guy

01:22:10.859 --> 01:22:15.246
knocking on the door is going to bring
in your house or whether this guy

01:22:15.279 --> 01:22:21.866
is a salesperson. You don't know now,
but people respected other people

01:22:21.899 --> 01:22:27.366
and just about everybody knew somebody
else, which made it, I would say

01:22:27.399 --> 01:22:34.706
rather, rather easy to get along. I've
enjoyed it. Now, when you first

01:22:34.739 --> 01:22:37.616
wanted to, to get your own home,
though, were there still restrictions

01:22:37.649 --> 01:22:43.015
about the parts of town that the black
people could live in? Sure.

01:22:43.048 --> 01:22:50.925
But we talk about that. Well, all I
can say is that some people

01:22:50.958 --> 01:22:56.126
had their own restrictions and you
have to honor that. But when it comes

01:22:56.159 --> 01:23:03.187
to race in order to keep people
segregated out or away, I think that's

01:23:03.220 --> 01:23:07.357
wrong. Now, you have to remember. I'm
a Korean war veteran. So when I got

01:23:07.390 --> 01:23:13.006
out, I felt that I make that decision

01:23:13.039 --> 01:23:19.796
and I felt that this was not only a
man Given, right? But also a God given

01:23:19.829 --> 01:23:27.296
, right? And I would seek God. And do
you know what I've gone anywhere to

01:23:27.329 --> 01:23:32.187
any restaurant at any time when I get
ready? The guy said, I saw you walk

01:23:32.220 --> 01:23:38.857
in that door. He said, don't, you
know, we don't serve *** here. I said,

01:23:38.890 --> 01:23:45.286
no, well, first of all, you have to
disarm people. I said, no, he was

01:23:45.319 --> 01:23:49.586
shocked that I said, no, he thought I
was gonna run and I can remember

01:23:49.619 --> 01:23:55.046
another time. The man said, you can't
come in here. I said, hell, I went

01:23:55.079 --> 01:23:59.116
to Korea. He said, come on.

01:23:59.149 --> 01:24:04.885
And you see, I've learned how to
disarm people. You have to disarm them of

01:24:04.918 --> 01:24:10.147
whatever power they think they have or
they claim to have or act like they

01:24:10.180 --> 01:24:16.357
have, you have to take that away from
them. And one said, um, you, you

01:24:16.390 --> 01:24:20.456
can't eat here. That's what they said,
you can't eat here. I said, well,

01:24:20.489 --> 01:24:24.546
I'll tell all the people your food is
bad.

01:24:24.579 --> 01:24:27.765
He said, don't do that. You go back in
the kitchen. I said, I'm not going

01:24:27.798 --> 01:24:31.196
back to the kitchen.

01:24:31.229 --> 01:24:37.765
I didn't go back to the kitchen, but I
was served out front. So I, I think

01:24:37.798 --> 01:24:41.496
it depends on who,

01:24:41.529 --> 01:24:48.496
meaning him and who are mean and me,
who do you want to believe. And I

01:24:48.529 --> 01:24:53.937
think I convinced a lot of people
without violence. I did the same thing

01:24:53.970 --> 01:24:56.286
back in Indiana

01:24:56.319 --> 01:25:02.527
and uh it worked and I think I would
do it again. And I think we've all

01:25:02.560 --> 01:25:10.496
reached that point of maturation that
who cares who sits at the table.

01:25:10.529 --> 01:25:13.345
That I didn't care.

01:25:13.378 --> 01:25:19.095
We called it a mess hall and it was a
mess, but

01:25:19.128 --> 01:25:24.126
they didn't care who sat across or
next to or behind.

01:25:24.159 --> 01:25:29.467
And when the second went overseas to
fight, they didn't ask me if I like

01:25:29.500 --> 01:25:32.317
to eat with white people.

01:25:32.350 --> 01:25:39.055
I, I just, it's beyond my ability to
stoop to such levels.

01:25:39.088 --> 01:25:43.946
A bit American. That's something we
need to push away. And I think it has

01:25:43.979 --> 01:25:49.446
been pushed away more than maybe you
realize right now, I have gone to

01:25:49.479 --> 01:25:55.717
Atlanta, Georgia when it was just as
segregated as black and white.

01:25:55.750 --> 01:26:01.217
And I walked in and the guy said, we
don't serve colored people here. I

01:26:01.250 --> 01:26:06.546
said, yes, you do. I told him what I
wanted and then I looked back and you

01:26:06.579 --> 01:26:12.086
could see the opening where the
kitchen was. People were looking out at me

01:26:12.119 --> 01:26:17.357
and you know what? I was the first one
to get served out there and there

01:26:17.390 --> 01:26:24.226
must have been 20 other people. So
people have learned, I think you'd have

01:26:24.259 --> 01:26:30.916
to look at it this way, not in terms
of the color, but in terms of what's

01:26:30.949 --> 01:26:36.555
right. And I think white America has
come a long way. You, you will never

01:26:36.588 --> 01:26:44.588
know because you're white, but white
America has brought in more miracles

01:26:44.819 --> 01:26:51.015
then you can shake a stick at, I've
seen police officers not get me for

01:26:51.048 --> 01:26:55.845
speeding, but they just wanted to know
who I was. I saw you stop back

01:26:55.878 --> 01:27:00.817
there at that stop sign. That was nice
of you to stop for that old lady.

01:27:00.850 --> 01:27:05.836
You know, you don't get that. And I'm
sitting there for a mouthful.

01:27:05.869 --> 01:27:11.406
Well, that's the type of thing that
attracts people when you get mad. You

01:27:11.439 --> 01:27:15.897
don't attract people.

01:27:15.930 --> 01:27:18.746
You've seen a lot of change in your
lifetime in the 50 s. It was a lot

01:27:18.779 --> 01:27:25.217
different than it is today. Yes. But
see, the FS was maybe the base

01:27:25.250 --> 01:27:30.956
for the movement. And thank God it
happened during the fifties.

01:27:30.989 --> 01:27:33.046
Really.

01:27:33.079 --> 01:27:38.987
You know, it was getting pretty hot
and I know some things you don't know.

01:27:39.020 --> 01:27:43.206
But I'm glad it happened in the 50
fifties because people were a bit more

01:27:43.239 --> 01:27:49.946
tolerant, open to integration. Of
course, that's where it started. And the

01:27:49.979 --> 01:27:54.496
age bracket was, as far as my age is
concerned during the fifties was

01:27:54.529 --> 01:28:02.529
prime. We were a new vital force
because we were Korean veterans

01:28:05.338 --> 01:28:11.067
and we were fighting for South Koreans
rights more than what black people

01:28:11.100 --> 01:28:16.345
could have in our own country. Now,
that's a dichotomy.

01:28:16.378 --> 01:28:23.256
But you see, sometimes it takes that
to wake people up.

01:28:23.289 --> 01:28:30.336
It takes that. Now I've met a Murphy,
you know who he was,

01:28:30.369 --> 01:28:34.925
he was in the same outfield. I was the
state of horse. I, I didn't know

01:28:34.958 --> 01:28:39.826
him as a gunner for an animal man for
machine gun. I didn't know him but

01:28:39.859 --> 01:28:43.937
we've talked and we chatted and, and,
uh, I don't know whether you saw the

01:28:43.970 --> 01:28:49.925
movie to held him back that he started
in while it was our company, Fox

01:28:49.958 --> 01:28:55.536
company of the 130th infantry regiment
that made that movie with him. But

01:28:55.569 --> 01:28:58.817
you didn't see me up there at that
machine gun blasting away, but I sure

01:28:58.850 --> 01:29:04.496
was shooting. I don't know why they
cut that out. But anyway, but the

01:29:04.529 --> 01:29:10.746
thing that I'm trying to say is this
thing of integration did its job and

01:29:10.779 --> 01:29:17.246
did it with the least amount of
casualties.

01:29:17.279 --> 01:29:21.256
Yeah. And I'll, I'll repeat that with
the least amount of casualties. It

01:29:21.289 --> 01:29:25.206
was a war against hate

01:29:25.239 --> 01:29:28.277
and those hate mongers

01:29:28.310 --> 01:29:31.296
were wrong.

01:29:31.329 --> 01:29:35.567
And we all knew that because in my
hometown, there was a white swimming

01:29:35.600 --> 01:29:41.147
pool called Tuy Park

01:29:41.180 --> 01:29:46.305
and we didn't have a swimming pool.
Well, there used to be a swimming pool

01:29:46.338 --> 01:29:48.326
but

01:29:48.359 --> 01:29:52.467
it had decayed. There was just a hole
in the ground. But do you know what

01:29:52.500 --> 01:30:00.500
the city came and spent weeks on
making that pool fit?

01:30:01.140 --> 01:30:05.726
Had it not been for integration? We
never would have had that pool fixed

01:30:05.759 --> 01:30:09.166
and it was all in

01:30:09.199 --> 01:30:12.456
a neighbor neighborhood

01:30:12.489 --> 01:30:19.717
and I was the lifeguard. I can tell
you all about it. Guess what white

01:30:19.750 --> 01:30:26.357
kids want to swim in the pool. And I
said, you sure can. They said, can we

01:30:26.390 --> 01:30:34.390
get in and they sweat? Never a fight,
never any name calling. No problem.

01:30:34.668 --> 01:30:39.496
 Kids can do better than adults.

01:30:39.529 --> 01:30:44.305
And it may seem amazing to you, but
I've seen it now. I played on a

01:30:44.338 --> 01:30:48.885
softball team and I had three brothers
and we made up almost half the team

01:30:48.918 --> 01:30:56.265
, the other half was white and we were
good. We came within one game of

01:30:56.298 --> 01:30:59.817
the state championship

01:30:59.850 --> 01:31:06.635
and you know what, most of the fans
were yelling for us and I knew that

01:31:06.668 --> 01:31:14.166
was a big step. See, this thing of
hate just doesn't work anymore.

01:31:14.199 --> 01:31:17.555
Hate slows you down.

01:31:17.588 --> 01:31:22.555
And if we hate you, we slow ourselves
down. So I was chairman or the

01:31:22.588 --> 01:31:28.946
president of the Youth Council of the
N A AC P. I made some changes.

01:31:28.979 --> 01:31:36.979
I made a lot of changes and it was for
the better and I advocate that now

01:31:38.329 --> 01:31:43.937
I started the black caucus here at a
su and I had a medallion minted. I

01:31:43.970 --> 01:31:51.527
don't have a copy with me and I gave
everybody a medallion

01:31:51.560 --> 01:31:55.717
that worked for civil rights

01:31:55.750 --> 01:32:01.256
and you start the black caucus. It was
19

01:32:01.289 --> 01:32:05.067
about 1960

01:32:05.100 --> 01:32:08.296
and it was open to everybody. But it
just said Black ho we had white

01:32:08.329 --> 01:32:11.737
people too.

01:32:11.770 --> 01:32:16.777
But if they can have White Citizens
Council, we have Black August,

01:32:16.810 --> 01:32:22.595
but I'm very pleased with the
atmosphere and the relationships

01:32:22.628 --> 01:32:27.937
in the Phoenix Metropolitan area. I
think it's throughout the state now,

01:32:27.970 --> 01:32:33.756
people can get along. We got along in
the army. There weren't that many

01:32:33.789 --> 01:32:38.726
blocks in the outfit I was in, but
there were a lot of blacks under the

01:32:38.759 --> 01:32:44.416
second infantry division and they had
a job to do and they were all mixed.

01:32:44.449 --> 01:32:50.647
When we went to Korea, we knew what
our job was. It wasn't each other.

01:32:50.680 --> 01:32:54.397
This ties in with the comment before.
I didn't quite understand where they

01:32:54.430 --> 01:32:57.836
called you out at night. There was a
crowd gathered, they called you out

01:32:57.869 --> 01:33:02.696
at night. So the reason they called
you is you were the head of the Black

01:33:02.729 --> 01:33:06.206
caucus. No, there was no such thing at
that particular time called the

01:33:06.239 --> 01:33:11.536
Black caucus. They called me out
because, uh,

01:33:11.569 --> 01:33:14.996
well, see, I generally talk to the
question. Now, I'm gonna ask you to

01:33:15.029 --> 01:33:18.317
come over here and get read out.

01:33:18.350 --> 01:33:23.726
I'm sorry about that. But I have been
taught you talk to the person that

01:33:23.759 --> 01:33:27.437
asks the question rather than talk
over here. See, I think that's rude.

01:33:27.470 --> 01:33:32.845
But anyway, now, what was the question
now, black caucus? Why did they

01:33:32.878 --> 01:33:38.116
call you that night? The police chief
and you came up and calm everything

01:33:38.149 --> 01:33:46.149
down. They called me because I had
some influence with the students were

01:33:46.838 --> 01:33:52.647
most were, they were white students
too. But mostly

01:33:52.680 --> 01:33:58.015
it wasn't a matter of protesting.
There was a problem

01:33:58.048 --> 01:34:04.277
and I think the students gathered to
protest a particular problem just

01:34:04.310 --> 01:34:08.237
what the problem was. I don't know
when the police called me at home. My

01:34:08.270 --> 01:34:12.515
wife said you got to get up, you got
to go hurry and I came out, I didn't

01:34:12.548 --> 01:34:18.515
ask for problems. My job, as far as I
could see, right away was to get the

01:34:18.548 --> 01:34:24.946
crowds to disperse. They were, no,
they weren't, not all of them, but some

01:34:24.979 --> 01:34:30.416
of them were, I would say it was a
little over half but not much over half.

01:34:30.449 --> 01:34:36.607
What did you say to them? Actually, as
the policeman said, when they

01:34:36.640 --> 01:34:42.897
pushed me up front, it just got quiet
and I looked back and saw I'll

01:34:42.930 --> 01:34:47.006
mention this name, Chip Wheeler. You
may remember that name. You remember

01:34:47.039 --> 01:34:53.737
that name and I just did that.
Everybody left

01:34:53.770 --> 01:34:59.446
and the policeman said, just like
Moses and I had never thought of being

01:34:59.479 --> 01:35:02.857
just like Moses,

01:35:02.890 --> 01:35:08.175
but it settled that problem. But you
never found out what the problem was.

01:35:08.208 --> 01:35:14.946
What I found out early in life was you
don't bring the problem back back.

01:35:14.979 --> 01:35:18.817
 You let it go, just say it's dead.

01:35:18.850 --> 01:35:26.850
If you talk about whatever the name
was, you bring about an upsurge

01:35:27.979 --> 01:35:31.916
to make it better bigger the next
time. And I've learned, you don't

01:35:31.949 --> 01:35:36.925
provide that opportunity to a crowd of
people,

01:35:36.958 --> 01:35:44.626
but from what I re recall, they were
mostly black.

01:35:44.659 --> 01:35:52.277
But as usual, you'll have some white
and you'll have some Indians and some

01:35:52.310 --> 01:35:57.726
Orientals in with the group. So it's
hard to say, what are you? You just

01:35:57.759 --> 01:36:03.317
go with what you have out there. And I
recall one thing, the students were

01:36:03.350 --> 01:36:11.350
very, very nice. They were very nice.
And from then on I had more students

01:36:11.390 --> 01:36:15.107
than I could advise.

01:36:15.140 --> 01:36:19.756
They said my father is coming next
week for parents weekend. I guess it

01:36:19.789 --> 01:36:26.126
was. And I want you to meet him
something like that. And see if it is on a

01:36:26.159 --> 01:36:30.476
Friday and Saturday and Sunday, I
would, I would be busier than, than

01:36:30.509 --> 01:36:38.366
probably. But I think it taught these
students violence is not always the

01:36:38.399 --> 01:36:46.399
answer and that I broadcast that I
tried to, I've got one last question. I

01:36:48.739 --> 01:36:53.357
understand that the first phd given at
a SU was given to a Black American.

01:36:53.390 --> 01:36:58.397
That's right. That's right. Yeah, I
know him but I'm trying to think of

01:36:58.430 --> 01:37:06.156
his name. Yeah, I know him. Know him
quite well. But he left about three

01:37:06.189 --> 01:37:14.189
years later. And what's the date of
your phd F off was 60.

01:37:16.350 --> 01:37:21.345
I think it was 66 when it was
converted or 65.

01:37:21.378 --> 01:37:28.885
I don't even remember. The first one
was what it was before me. It was, it

01:37:28.918 --> 01:37:34.336
was, I think it was in the early
sixties.

01:37:34.369 --> 01:37:37.796
No, but I have it at home somewhere.

01:37:37.829 --> 01:37:40.817
But you see, you can only keep so much
of this stuff at home. I'll tell

01:37:40.850 --> 01:37:46.126
you if you try to get, you'd be
surprised the stuff I had my wife but

01:37:46.159 --> 01:37:51.567
she's just as bad. We have so much
stuff we keep going back and looking at

01:37:51.600 --> 01:37:56.135
that. You remember this, you remember
that and it takes us hours to go

01:37:56.168 --> 01:38:04.168
through one book. But I, I remember
the first black student that phd. Yeah.

01:38:06.958 --> 01:38:11.706
So he was a friend of yours or did
you, did you? No, he was not a friend

01:38:11.739 --> 01:38:17.996
of mine at that time. No, but I knew
him but he was not a close friend.

01:38:18.029 --> 01:38:20.976
Well, it couldn't have been that, that
many black students on campus back

01:38:21.009 --> 01:38:23.616
then.

01:38:23.649 --> 01:38:30.359
Well, I think at one time in the early
years there were about 20 something.

01:38:30.750 --> 01:38:32.750
And you're right. We, we didn't have that many to be on that particular

01:38:36.649 --> 01:38:40.506
level.

01:38:40.539 --> 01:38:45.739
Anything else? No, I can't think of
anything. I think it's been wonderful.

01:38:46.500 --> 01:38:48.500
Well, well, thanks for asking me. I don't know. I think that was an

01:38:51.628 --> 01:38:55.836
accident.

01:38:55.869 --> 01:38:59.626
Well, I've enjoyed this, enjoyed
meeting all of you. Enjoyed your

01:38:59.659 --> 01:39:04.036
questions. Your questions are fair.
And I say if you don't have anything

01:39:04.069 --> 01:39:08.626
to do, come on back, we'll do it
again.

01:39:08.659 --> 01:39:10.659
Yeah.