Uh introducing the on the tape that today is Monday, November 24th of
2003. And I'm Pam Stevenson doing an interview here at Arizona State
University or the um a su Retirees Association Living History video
project. And I will let you introduce yourself. Um Why don't you give me
your name and tell me what you did at A SU when you retired. My name is
John Edwards and I worked at A SU for over 30 years. And what I did was
coordinate the efforts of all off campus programs and all international
study programs along with Dennis Keegan, who was the dean and I was
associate dean. It's a lot of fun. A lot of stories have come out of all
of that by the students, but it was really an exceptional event for me to
participate to that extent. Good. Well, we'll go back and hear some of
those stories, but I always like to get just a little bit of background
and tell me about where you were born and when you were born. Well, I was
born in Mun Indiana in 1930
and I was one of nine Children and several are still alive today. And I
went on to elementary school and junior high and high school and college
and never missed a day. Nor was it?
Well, I felt good about it but I think it enhanced the learning process
quite a bit.
Um, education must have been important to your family. Then if you were,
you know, stressed, I guess that you were good to go to school. Well,
education was very important to the, all the members of the family and all
of us went through high school and somewhat on to college. And we really
took a great, great feeling at that time that all of us did get through
hook or crook. That's quite an accomplishment for a family that large.
What did your family do for a living? Well, my dad was unemployed for a
number of years because this was during the depression, his first major
job after the, uh you might say a bad cycle in our economy came in 1941.
About the same time as World World War Two started. And so he was a good
provider, but he was also a motivator one way or the other. What about
your mother? She was very much like my father only, she was more
passionate than my father. She was a good lady. And uh I'll tell you what
she helped, not only our family, but a lot of poor people came to our
house during the depression. To eat and she always found something to
assist. Did she work outside the home? No, she did not. So how did you get
by in those years? Were farmers? Did you grow your own food? We had a
Victory Garden and some people don't know what that was, but we had a nice
sized Victory Garden and we enjoyed it to watch the plants grow and to
harvest the fruits of our labor was really an experience because during
World War II, I think they call them Victory Gardens if I remember
correctly. And that, that helped out quite a bit with the family of our
size.
Well, tell me about when you were in school, you say you never missed a
day. Were you a good student? I was a good student. I can't brag on myself.
I was a good student and enjoyed it. But at first they had an honor
society but they didn't want me in it. And it reached a point that I had a
lot of support and they opened up the honor society. It was no longer
discriminatory.
Why they didn't want you in it. Well, because I was African American. Some
people didn't want me in it. Not all of them. I had enough support and it
was, I think quite an eye opener for me and possibly some of them too. And
that was in the, what was that? The forties, forties. So you went to high
school with it? Must have been an integrated high school there. Yes. At
that particular time it became integrated just before I went.
What was that period of time? Like, it was challenging and, uh I thought
it was a fun period of time because I got a chance to play baseball and
play football and enjoyed every moment of it. And also in elementary
school, I was table tennis champion. We call it ping pong.
So you're quite an athlete? Well, didn't take much of my people.
What would you progress up to? Baseball and football? Yes. Baseball and
football. I was a halfback and uh
play second base for the baseball team. This was in Indiana. Is that you
said you were born there? I, as you grew up there. Yes.
Did you have some favorite courses in school or did you have ideas of what
you wanted to do when you got out of school? I had ideas about what I
wanted to do and you won't believe it. One was to go to college. Number
two was to be a college professor and I accomplished both of those. Now,
how did you get those ideas growing up in Indiana? Well, II, I think then
the oldest child often set the pace and the other siblings followed. And
that happened in my particular case and also my brothers and sisters, one
right after another, we, we had a lot of people who thought we were a
wealthy family, but we weren't because there were, let's see, there were
nine of us kids, of course, two died and all the rest went to college. Now
, why did they think you were wealthy? Because we went to college. College
was sort of a special place to all families and to go during the
depression. And near the end of the depression was quite a feat. But we
also had jobs, they weren't really jobs per se, but I served as a
custodian and my dad was a custodian. And as when I went through college,
that left another spot for somebody else to move in. And that's what
happened. We struggled through it, but we enjoyed it. We often laugh and
talk about it. Some of the things that happened to us and they said my dad
went to sleep while he was on his broom.
Where was this? Where did you go to college? I went to Ball State
University in Muncie, Indiana, the so called all American City. You've
heard of Ball Brothers? The Ball Mason jars. Well, they endowed that
university is quite a place. Very, very nice. And not only that I worked
for Ball Brothers, meaning at the factory because I made
canning jars. When I said I made it, I handled the machine that made it,
it was a very hot place to work. It was at least about 120 to 140 degrees
inside the factory. And when the metal came down or the molten glass came
down and formed the jar. It was very interesting to watch how they did
things and when we finished it, it went down what we call a layer tinder
out and it was tempered and then it was boxed and bottled and shipped all
over the country. I think. I have some of those jars. I didn't see you
there. Good.
So, was that when you were in college that you worked in the factory or?
Yeah, I did that. What was your major in college? My major was business.
And also I had a double major. It was history or the social sciences as it
was called then. And so what did you plan to do when you got out of
college? Well, as I said, I always wanted to be a, a college professor and
I got the opportunity and it worked out well. Tell me about how that came
about. You don't just become a college professor. No. Uh, you, you have to
work at it. You have to teach and I taught in the public schools first and
then on, and I was selected as one of the students to move into the
doctoral program. And then after that, uh I landed the job. What did you
teach in public schools? Well, in the public schools in those days you had
to teach just about everything in the curriculum.
From math to biology and it was a long endless school. You were teaching
grade and junior high school and then high school.
So, how long did you teach in the grade school? I think it was six years.
About six years. Now. They have what we call the semester and the
semester didn't go along with Asu's semester because a su had quarters, I
think at first. But anyway, it was very, very nice. And the students were
much better than what I was led to believe you're talking about a su did
you come out to Arizona to teach then, or? Yes, tell me about how you came
to Arizona. Well, I had several friends out here. In fact, when I was
discharged, two officers said, well, why don't you come to Arizona and
both lived in or near Phoenix at that particular time? But at that time,
we didn't know a heck of a lot about Arizona. So most of the guys in the
company, even in the battalion said, oh, yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I found out
some of us ended up in Arizona and I've enjoyed it ever since. Uh Michael
J mcnulty was, uh, my platoon commander at that particular time and he was
from the Phoenix area, but I haven't seen him since I've been out here.
Why don't you back up a little bit and tell us how you got into the
military. Um, last time you were, you were in college,
you graduated, right. And of course, I had been deferred from being
drafted, this is what they called it. They deferred you until you finish
your goal. And I was drafted immediately after I graduated from college.
What year was that? That was 1950 three?
And where did you, what branch in the second Infantry division? Fort Louis
Washington. But before that, I have to tell you it was the Illinois 44th
division. And we all went to that and then we were shipped to Fort Le
warship in the biggest Arama in the history of the United States. One
whole fort was cleaned out and they sent us off to Fort Le with the second
infantry division and the planes were up all day and all night, we were
coming in at all times. It was a little boring after a while because we
didn't have first class seats. We were in troop transport planes where you
sat on the floor.
So what did you do at Fort Louis Washington? Well, I was drafted and I got
a position in the company's office. They call us um,
extra help, but they found out I could type over 100 words per minute. I
moved up so fast. And then when my captain was asked if he would transfer
me to G one,
he refused. And of course, I didn't want to work in the general's office
in the first place. I was always afraid of those guys because the only
what I knew anything about was general Custer.
You were a good fit for the military. Well, we got along fine. I handled
all the problems with courts and boards and I didn't particularly like
some of the outcomes, but I had to get the charges and, and the
specifications of all the people who had violated military justice. They
had a uniform code of military justice and they kind of left that to me to
keep all the changes and the amendments and all the other stuff together.
So it was an interesting job. But I also did the regular infantry fired
the 30 caliber rifle, the air cool water, cool machine gun and also the
2.6 and the 3.5 rocket, which was what we called the Bazooka at that
particular time. So I had my share of the military. It was nice. It was
enjoyable. Did you ever go over? Yes. Well, we, we were overseas but I
can't tell you where we were because they never would tell us where we
were going. Now, how could that be? Well, everything was a secret. But uh
we boarded the troop transportation, a ship to us s Bayville. And when we
left, we, I think we were, well, we left solo point Washington and then we
ended up near Hawaii. But we had a major problem because uh the United
States tw went down in front of us. And so we were, there were 54 ships in
that convoy and we had been singled out as the point ship to go in and
rescue those people. And that was a job. In fact, it was in Life magazine
,
1953
September issue, if I can remember. And it was gruesome. It was gruesome
because when the tw A went down all the fuel, which normally is in the
wings
got into the water and people were actually suffocating. I think we got 19
survivors if I can remember correctly. But I have to admire the navy. They
couldn't go in with motor boats. They had to row in because of all the oil
and the gas on the top of the ocean. And we were all pulling and yelling
and working. And when they brought those people on board, they didn't have
clothes on. The impact was so great. It just stripped them and they had
oil all over them and nostrils and eyes and we had to help and I was a top
side loader. I don't know whether you know what that is. But in the, we
were aboard the US S Bayfield. But when they pulled the rope ladders over
, they were just like a ladder, but they were rope. You had to climb down
the side of the ship and then jump into a row boat. And it was really
something I have the greatest respect for the navy. They did that so
beautifully.
Some lives were lost but it wasn't their fault because you can't take a
big troop transport and pull it up and stop. If you do, you're going to
take everybody around it down. So, it was, it was quite an affair. It's
amazing that many people survived. Yeah, quite a, quite a number survived.
But I can't tell you how many. But I know we took a lot aboard our ship.
The 1953 period, the Korean War was ending. Well, it started ending, I
think it ended in September of 53.
Didn't get involved in going over there. Well, we were out at sea most of
the time as a stand by task force and that's when the tw A went down.
So, how many years did you serve in the military? Two,
I served my time but it's two busy years. Two real busy years. I think I
slept on a bed once or twice. I can't sit for
a lot of time out at sea. Well, a lot of time out on the desert at Yakima
firing center out from, uh, well, it was about 100 and 60 miles, I believe
south of Seattle or near it. And that's a desert. That is, this is not a
desert right here. This is not a desert. That was a desert.
We had our problems with rattlesnakes.
It was a major problem. You don't think of Washington as having dessert.
No, I don't think anybody did but we were shocked. We were out by the
Yakama what they call the Yakama firing Center. And that, that's a desert
. I don't think anything could survive out there because it gets 100 and
15 to 100 and 30. And in the winter time it's just the opposite. It's real
cold.
So when you got out of the military, you say people suggested you might
like Arizona. Is that how you happened to? Well, one of my commanding
officers was from the Phoenix area and there were two other people who
were from Arizona. And I can't remember exactly what city or what county
they lived in. And so, uh when I came out here and drove up in front of,
uh then it was the Memorial Union at one time here on, on A S US campus,
you could park right in front of the and guess who I saw one of my
commanding officers.
It was quite a reunion, but he enjoyed it as well as I did you come
straight to a U or did you just plan to come and see what Arizona was like
? No, I went back to Indiana when I was discharged and another couple from
my hometown called me and said, if you'd like to come to Arizona, I know
where there's a job for you. And I said, sure. And I came to and got the
position
as a teacher in the Roosevelt school district at that time. I think I
still call the Roosevelt school district.
So, where did you teach, I taught at Perc Julian school after Doctor
Julian. And it was a very good experience to work with those kids from a
disadvantaged area. They were the nicest kids and they wanted to learn and
my job was to make sure that they learned something in my classes. They
were so excited, they would stay after school or they would be there long
before school started waiting to get into the classroom. And of course,
you have to make it interesting and they made it interesting and they made
it very, very exciting to each other.
And that was in the fifties. That was shortly after the schools here
integrated. At least it was after they integrated. Yes, a lot of changes
in education in the South Phoenix area at that time. Very true. And I had
some students and I think every teacher had some students that never
missed a day of school while they were in their classes. So we had to make
it challenging and industry. It was quite a challenge. But teaching school
is a challenge. I don't care where you teach.
So, how long did you teach there? About six years? And when did you decide
you want to do something different? Well, uh, I think there was a class on
campus that was taught by Doctor Willard Abraham. You may remember him and
my wife took the class a class from him and he indicated that there were
some openings and I applied and, and got one of the positions. And what,
what was your position when you came to u, well, I had been a school
teacher in the public schools but we didn't call that a position as a
teacher, but the jobs that he had, had been named faculty associates and I
got one of those six faculty associate positions. And what did you do? I
taught. Where were you teaching? Uh, well, I taught on campus in the
College of Education.
I know they had a school on campus at that time. They had ID paying school.
Were you teaching in that school? No, no, I taught teachers to teach
to be clear about what you came here to do. What year was that, that you
came to issues that had to be 1962 63? Mhm. And you mentioned that the
first time you came to a su that you could drive up to the Memorial Union
while I was a student. I had to take Arizona Constitution and there was
another class you had to have those in order to teach in the state of
Arizona.
So you first came to issue then as a student? Yes.
Well, what was a su like when you first came here?
About what I had pictured it to be a small school
with a lot of territory, a school with what I would say, tremendous
potential. And that's what I wanted.
And the students were very, very nice. The instructors were just
unbelievable in terms of doing their jobs. And that was a great
inspiration
to me. And so I followed suit.
So did you, when you got your first job at a su was your goal then to
become a professor or it was, that was one of my many dreams. You know,
when you're in the military, you have all kinds of things you dream of
before you get out,
You say one of your many, what were your others? Well, uh one I wanted to
be a pilot and another dream was to get married and have a family and they
mostly boys,
you make all of those things go too. I don't know if you have that much
control over whether you have mostly boys. No, but it started out that way.
It ended up that way.
Did you get married after you were in the military or after I got married
in Arizona? My wife was from North Carolina, but she came out to teach
also. Now you have to understand this is when Arizona was in that
tremendous growth period and they needed people and they had all kinds of
problems. I understand recruiting teachers and they recruited highly in
California. I do know that, but it was a place where I felt. Gee whiz. I
don't have to shovel snow. Gee whiz I can drive my car without change or
stopping to putting on change, going up a hill or down a hill. I said, I
think I'll give it a try. And I had friends out here and I called them and
they said, sure you get a job, same day you come. Well, I heard from a
superintendent, I won't mention his name, offering me a job far in advance.
And I said yes. And then two weeks later I got a contract and I signed it
and then I was off and running. So you had a job before you even came?
Really? I did. Yeah. So what was the difference when you came over to, to
teach at a su from giving up the classroom with the younger kids?
Did you, why do you wanna do that? Well, I like a challenge and I've
always wanted to teach on the collegiate level and this was not a problem
for me. I was well prepared. I was well steeped into my background to
handle that. And I just took off running. Now, at that point, did you have
your master's degree? I had hours to it. And as you know, when you trans
transfer out, you're going to lose from another institution because the
curriculums are all different. But I managed to go back to school and take
a few additional courses. Got certified. And here I am. So while you were
teaching, you were also getting your masters. Yes. And I had a boy scout,
troop cub scouts, all those things you have to do in a public school, you
put those together. There's not enough hours in the day to do everything.
But somehow I struggled through it. I really enjoyed working with the
young people. I took him on hikes, I took them camping. I had to show them
how to do a lot of things, but that's what a teacher has to do anyway.
What about when you came to ASU, what was as u like at the time that you
came to teach here? What was the College of Education? Was it called the
College of Education? Well, I don't know what it was called originally,
but later it was called the College of Education. But that change came
when Arizona State College became a university. And that's when the big
switch triggered a lot of, a lot of momentum and a lot of support by
alumni. And I think as you and I could see it was up for better days and
you could just feel it. The students were tremendous. We had a lot of
support off campus in the community to make it a university. And once that
happened, I don't think any other school has moved as fast as they issue,
correct me if I'm wrong
compared to all of them. But the issue did move pretty fast. Well,
compared to some, it moved pretty fast. Was it a lot different though
coming here and teaching adults instead of kids and teaching how to teach
and how did you make that adjustment, it wasn't a big adjustment because
back in Indiana
I tried to, I tried, I did teach adults to read and write and to converse
with each other and these things just all came together because you can't
separate too easily one from the other. And I thought that was tremendous
to have a, a large group of adults who were not very good at reading or
very limited to get excited like kids in the first grade about making
accomplishments. And that's when I caught fire. I just loved it. So I went
into adult education and as you know, this was during the war on poverty
and many adults had not learned to read and write, but they were adults.
So I had to back up and assist in teaching adults to read and to write and
to understand. And that was another challenge. But I don't think there's
anything as nice or as great to a human being. It's when adults come to
Ukraine and I learned to read last night. And I worked down in Guadalupe,
Arizona under the Laurel Garcia in charge of the adult uh education down
there. And I can remember Jesse Acuna was the first graduate of high
school to go to college.
She came through our adult ed program to get her certificate
that you were teaching. No, that was because I assisted in developing a
proposal that was funded under title. I at that time, which provided the
funds which the government gave to the community in an attempt to increase
the level of you might say academic level to read and to survive. It was
part of their program to maybe cut down on the number of people that were
unemployed and people who could not read and write. Our objective was to
improve the literacy level. So I served as a consultant to what we call Go
Go, which was the Guadalupe organization. And we did so well that we were
asked to help out over in California. So I used to have to catch a plane
on Friday to go to California to do the same thing that I had done all
week here. It was very exciting. And I'll tell you, it's very touching to
see adults learn to read and write. And we even had a graduation for the,
I was very excited. They had a lot of people there and we felt good about
it. That sounds great. Um Tell me a little more about your career here at
a su um When you first came here, you were a faculty associated, faculty
associate. And uh we had to teach a class also in order to earn our
livelihood. And that was very challenging, but it was very, very nice. I
really enjoyed the program and at one point, they needed six instructors
and I was one of the six selected in education to assist with the large
enrollment because our enrollment was going up every year here at a su for
quite some time. So, what did you teach? I taught several different
classes. One class. Well, actually the first class was problems of
teachers and coming fresh from the classroom. I bet I was an expert on
that.
What were some of the problems that you talked to them about? Discipline
was number one and anybody who has ever taught school will tell you that's
the number one problem. And it's how you handle these young people that
makes it easy or difficult. And you have to look at them as humans. You
can't yell at them. You have to talk to them, you have to show them, you
have to also show them that you respected them, that you love them, that
you would see them through. And I'll tell you what, you should not have a
lot of problems. And this course called problems of teachers. I've had
teachers to call me and say it worked. It worked.
And I enjoyed that too.
That was the first class that you taught. Well, first few classes because
I taught it several times over a period of maybe a year and a half or two.
You know, remember how big the college was, the education department. It
was very small, very small. I can't tell you in numbers and I don't know
whether anybody could give you an accurate figure but it, it was small,
but you could see it grow semester after semester, the word got out. And
when they made this university a university that opened the door for so
many other departments and colleges to get on track and get moving. And I
think that was the rebirth of Arizona State University. And we got a lot
of recognition and some of us served as consultants in the community. I
can name two or three schools that called me to help them set up adult
education programs and that didn't hurt the university at all. In fact, I
think it increased the enrollment quite a bit over a number of years.
It started as Arizona teachers college. So it would be reasonable if the
college of education would be a big part of that.
Um Who was the president of the university when you came? Well, there was
a, a turnover but uh I can remember uh Homer Durham, uh who was the
president during what I would call the growth period, the person who
preceded him. I'm not too sure about because I didn't have the opportunity
to bump shoulders with those people. Like all the instructors did on their
particular levels. But I know after Homer Durham, I think he was in Utah,
if I can remember and he came down and became the president, I think he
did a tremendous job in uh getting a su ready for what I would call the
next step.
Talk a little bit more about your career and how you progressed from, you
know, teaching about the problems of teachers to other things that you did.
Well, I've, I've been involved in organizations practically all of my
life since I was a boy scout to tell the truth about it. And during world
war two, we didn't have a scout master because everyone we had was drafted
into the military and at the age of 14
and I have to say this, I was like a scout master, but I was not an adult.
But there are no other men in our community
to take over the, the boy scout troop. And so for several years, I was the
person and it was, it was very, very nice. The young guys were just great
. I took them camping, we did wonderful things and I helped them with
their promotions from Tenderfoot to second class to first class to Star
Life and Eagle and the parents got attached to me. And when it was
announced that I was gonna go into the service, they said you can't. And
then I say I said, yes, I can. Yeah. So did that experience helped you out
when you were at a su then. Oh yes. Every experience helped me out every
time I went up the ladder and while I was in high school, I was in ROTC.
And so I had a background for the military and of course, I was also an
expert with a rifle. So that didn't hurt because they wanted everybody
they could during the Korean War uh to come aboard. And I, I enjoyed being
out on the range. The shooting range. Show this
what when you got here to a su though, how did you climb your career
ladder? Can you describe for us, the, the steps you took to move up? Well
, I started out as a faculty associate and then the college of education
needed some additional people to handle the student teachers out in the
field. And so they asked me if I would be willing to work with student
teachers in terms of discipline, their log books, their planning lesson
plans. It is and also in terms of the other responsibilities teachers have
and I did that and students evaluated all of us and evidently I did. All
right.
And so I got an offer to become an instructor. Well, I accepted, I was
getting hungry. Now you got to remember this
and have the students started evaluating us. And this is the time when
instructors were evaluated. And evidently I did. All right. So was an
instructor or a step up from being a faculty associate? Yeah, that was the
next step. And then from then on, you know, the routine. Yeah. Why don't
you explain to us what, what is the routine from then on? How did you move
up from there? Well, I moved up to the instructor position and I was
notified and it was approved by the dean of the college at that particular
time. And then, uh, later on they said, well, you ought to apply for the
other position, assistant professor. And that was accomplished. And that's
how I started up from then on. It was just a track that you had to follow.
Just keep doing what you're doing, but become more proficient. And I did
, did you have to go back to school to get more degrees and things too?
Well, I had most of those but I did go back to school because I thought
there might have been something I missed and I found out, uh, that they
asked me if I would teach.
Seems like you went from being a student to the teacher pretty quickly.
Well, actually I did. What degrees do you hold? I have a Bachelor's a
Masters and had the doctor at the EDD. And that school was that from here
that was from a, because, uh, I couldn't get away long enough to go back
to Indiana to do anything. And Indiana was on a quarter basis and here we
were on a semester basis.
Yeah. Well, tell me about some of the different things that you've done in
your career. What stands out as being some of the most interesting
experiences that you've had.
Well, actually
every experience that I've had, it's been a little different or unusual.
Well, I, I think I indicated that one experience when I, uh, went to, uh
, Michigan City, Indiana
and, uh, I sat in the electric chair.
That was really an experience. I just knew somebody was going to throw the
switch on me. How did you happen to be back there? Well, I graduated from
high school back there and I'm the one that recommended to the, we call it
civics, civic teacher to let's go to a prison. And let's see how it is.
And he said, well, if you think you can get into a prison the normal way,
uh, you write a letter and I wrote a letter and the warning said, we'd be
glad to have you. So we had the, all the paperwork to fill out. And, uh,
we went to Indiana State Prison and from then on, we didn't have as many
problems after that. Going back year after year, the precedent had been
set and they claimed at that time. And the Sergeant Sergeant Al Guzzy, he
said, you know, J wrote Delinquency has been on a down scale ever since
you guys went to the prison. We saw some of our classmates in prison and
the word got around. So it may have had in the back. I don't know. So when
you went to the Michigan prison, was that through a su? Well, no, that was
not through a su that was through our high school senior class. But every
student in the graduating class could not go because we had 1012, 1500 in
graduating classes.
So, that was, that was, uh, well, what about some of the things that you
did at a su that were interesting?
Well, it's hard to pick out one thing that was interesting. There was just
, I thought every day was interesting. A new problem that had to be taken
care of. But I think my previous experience of working in the military
always brought about a new challenge or a new way or something that should
be done. I wish I could find or think of one that would be exciting or
interesting. But to me, everything that I did was interesting. I think if
you don't like your job, you're not going to do a very good job at it. But
everything was so interesting. I tried to improve it and make it better or
make it easier for students to understand what are some of the, the things
that you improved? Uh I improved in terms of what we would say, audio
visuals that we use to get students excited. A picture is worth, you know
, so many words and I resorted to that and believe it or not, a picture is
worth more than 1000 words and you should. And so I used more audio visual
aids to get mod points over and it worked real well. Give me some examples
of how you did that. Well, I would do a combination of lecture and
demonstration and in the demonstration, this would tell other potential
teachers things or at least give them ideas about what they can do to make
their presentations more exciting and uh even using cartoons
or just putting it in writing. But have it flashed on the screen also is
motivating too in terms of how do you outline history or historical events
and just doing that? But having visual aids to assist you makes it easier
for the students to copy and write down rather than hearing the verbal all
the time. So I found that having the visual aids was quite an asset.
Is there, is there anything that you're particularly proud of that you
accomplished during your career?
Well, it's very difficult for me to talk about myself. But I, I felt that
I learned a lot from people who had more experience and better positions
than I had. And what I tried to do was to find ways that I could make my
classes more exciting, more attractive and more intact with our
competitors. Because when I came along, movies were a great asset and kids
would go to the movie. But when they came to my class, not only did they
get a movie, they got a lecture and so I had them to respond and to
evaluate and they did and they were very honest and that was an asset to
me so that it would help me do a much better job in terms of areas that we
often talk about, but students really don't understand. But when you use a
combination of the oral with the what we call the supports, audio visual
support makes it tremendous. And then many of my students were teachers
already and they went back to their classrooms and tried these things and
they would come back or they would call me late at night saying it worked
, it worked. Thank you. Thank you, this kind of thing. And I feel good
about that. Are there any of your students that stand out in your mind? I
had some real great students. They were not a problem at all. They came
into the classroom with excitement and in fact, some would come and say I
understand your enrollment is full. Can I get a petition and get in your
class? And I said I have nothing to do with that. You have to see the
department chairman. And I figured, well, my class would be all right. I
remember one time 15 more students came to the class that I had seats for
.
I tried to figure that one out, but I didn't get with the department
chairman and give him a rough time or not. He just upped the number of
students that I could have in my class. And I felt that that was a signal
for me. So I find you some more chairs and we had to do that. We had to do
that. But I was very very proud of my students, very proud of my students.
And then he wanted recommendations and I would give them honest
recommendations, but I would have a conference with them first. And, uh,
they said, well, I didn't know I did that poorly or I appreciate you
taking it high. And I think on the collegiate level, sometimes our
students need to talk to us, but they don't know how to go about it. They
know they have a problem but they can't figure out a good way to
communicate with the professor. And I always made my, I made myself
available even on Saturdays and I like that because I didn't have to rush
off to class.
And you were here on at a su during the sixties and that was the time when
there were a lot of protests about all sorts of things. Um Did you get
involved in any of that? You mean the protest? There was the civil rights
, the Chicano movement, the Vietnam war protest? Well, I got involved but
not in a, in the position of
mass rallies and things of that nature.
But I'll tell you one little thing that was funny. We had a problem here
on campus at a su and uh the College of Law had opened up. Prick had
conferred with me about a lot of things along with John Morris and, and a
couple other professors and there was a big rally going on in front of the
college before the college of law is now.
And, uh, this lasted off and on half of the day
and then about one o'clock in the morning, I got a call from the campus
police or Tempe police and we need you on campus right away. We got a
problem.
And I said, well, if there's a problem, why don't you, the police handle
it? Well, the crowd was about 2000
and I don't think they had 2000 police officers at that particular time.
And the police were standing there in kind of a wedge shape
and they had, uh, they, they didn't have any weapons drawn. Don't get me
wrong. But they had to hand on the clubs and what have you and this group
of students, they were really not that bad.
But when I came there, I know the Tempe police just ushered me up front
and I'm standing there and that's all I had to do was stand there.
The crowd dispersed. What were they there for? I don't know. And I have
never asked, they dispersed. And one police officer said, just like Moses
,
you must have had some sort of reputation for them to call you though.
What made them call you? Well, I knew the chief because he had been on the
campus police department and, uh, he called me, I don't want to give his
name, but it wouldn't take much to figure out who. But anyway, it was very
, very nice. And, and then right after that, he said, you know, it would
be nice if we had a civilian advisory board and I said it would be the
wise thing to do and many, many cities have police advisory board. I
worked with Scottsdale and the Phoenix Police Department as well. It's not
that bad. They just have to act like regular people.
Were you involved at all in the civil rights movements that were going on
in Phoenix? Yes. Yes. Yes. I was involved in Phoenix and other parts of
Arizona, but it was never the hate type thing. It was just, we were
marching for equal rights or certain rights and uh I don't get involved in
the violence. I've seen too much violence in my life. What were you
marching for specifically? Do you remember each situation was a little
different. It was mostly for recognition and that people have a right to
become a part of, they should enjoy these rights like all people.
Americans are so called endowed with life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness. I know there was a big demonstration at the accommodation.
I don't think I was down there the day that they marched. But see, I was
flying back and forth to California helping them out too and I missed on a
lot of the things that were local, you see over in California, they had
fairly good leadership and we had good leadership here. But the leaders
here. They were in charge and I didn't want to disrupt what plans they had.
In fact, I agreed with some of the things and I disagreed with others but
each city is just a little different for what particular reasons. I don't
know. But each time the map had to be redrawn.
You, you weren't down to the Capitol for that. Well, I, I went down to the
Capitol but I can't remember exactly just which time it was, whether it
was to protest. I guess they were really pushing the public accommodations
bill at the legislature.
Well, I could have been down there. I could have been down, I've seen
pictures where they did a sit in, outside the governor's office and had to
be, I went down there but I don't remember being in on the sit in, but
there are several groups, there are some marches in downtown Phoenix. Hi.
Right. I recall some of those. Right. But I can remember the problem with
the flag that was not lowered here on campus. You remember that? The flag
, which was Vietnam War, didn't it? I think it was a combination, but I
think it was mostly on Vietnam but you had the same people or the same
types of people picketing and demanding certain things, but we didn't have
anyone to go to jail.
And so we, we can be proud of that, that we broke into the civil rights
and many of these things without real violence.
And that says something for a university. They were having problems on
many campuses throughout the United States. But here there was a different
kind of a student, I believe out there that said violence breeds violence.
And I think that's kind of the unwritten code that we went by.
What sort of advice do you have for young people today who are trying to
decide what to do with their lives?
Well, individuals vary from one extreme to the other. And first of all,
young people need to stop and think
and work toward making some of the things happen that they have control
over. And then from that point on, I have advocated talk to someone who's
already in a position like that and get their particular advice. Now,
now, whatever they give you and whatever they tell you you have to do, you
start making plans for that. And I found out that's pretty accurate. They
ought to do that. Now with people who have called me and said, I heard you
speak at church, I heard you do this, but you never said anything about
juvenile delinquency. I said, well, first of all, if you do the others,
you're not going to have it.
And one person came to me and said, you know, you're right, we wait until
they get in trouble before we start reprimanding them. Well, why don't you
do something to preclude that? And so some people followed that and they
said it works. And so, so so said it, well, it didn't work, but it depends
on who that person is and how much he has respect.
Those are. Most of the questions that I had for you. Was there anything
you wanted to bring up the day that I didn't ask you about? Well, you
brought up a lot of things made me kind of feel guilty and I didn't know
enough to tell you. No, I, I've enjoyed life. I've enjoyed working with
young people back in Indiana. Um There was a swimming pool, there was a
white swimming pool, it was called Tuy swimming pool. And of course, we
didn't have a swimming pool. And uh I went to the chief of police
and he said, well, you go see Al Guzzy. So I went to Al Guzzy and Al Guzzy
said you will be swimming in that pool when you get ready. So I became an
honorary member of the police department, my sister and I really, and they
opened the pool up and all of these people that said it won't work and to
do this, none of those things happen.
Both groups were put on notice that if something happens, then this is
going to happen,
human beings are smart enough to know
right from wrong. And that goes for all groups of people. I don't care who
they are rich or poor. It goes for all people. And I've enjoyed working
with groups of this nature. And they said, well, no one ever told us this
. I expect it to be that. But I said this when World War Two broke out,
nobody talked about discrimination hardly in the circus and said, we had
to unite and fight an enemy.
And people said now that you've mentioned it, I recall because if you
think about it, there were segregated groups in the army. The 92nd of
which I'm familiar with was an African American group. But you put that
group on the field with white people. And I'll tell you, it's a hell of an
army.
People forget about
uh color and differences. And I think this has opened up ground for women
too. I think they started seeing ways to acquire rights for rights that
should not have happened or illegal rights, barring women from political
office and certain jobs in politics. All of that's wrong.
And, and I think that movement, the civil rights movement open the eyes of
America.
And I think we found new potential intellect and great scientists and
great researchers. As a result of being an open society,
I've always felt that women were mistreated
when you look at suffrage. And if you go back from a historical
perspective, they've been mistreated
and I knew how I felt when I was mistreated because I was supposed to go
to camp Crosley. I don't know whether you've heard of that camp, but it's
a camp where all of the young men on safety patrol. Now, safety patrol was
, was a group of patrol boys who patrolled the streets when kids were out
of school to help them across the street. And, uh, I was denied the right
to go to that camp. Now, I could have burned down the building, but I
talked my way through it and before long they invited me to go to camp
Crosley after I had been invited another camp to go to the other 10, I had
to go to the other one, but it was good. It was an eye opener to learn
human behavior
and human restrictions.
OK. I did work with Mister Benedict and there were several little projects
and he used some of my advice and I used some of his, what kind of
projects
there are so many but one was a reading project on teaching young people
how to read and how to understand. I did a special one on vocabulary
development processes and procedures, which I haven't seen that one yet.
But anyway, I'm sure it worked out. Ok.
Did you wanna follow up with that? Um Did you have I think they had a
question. Uh my question. Can you mentioned Dennis Keegan? And by the way
, John, you and I met when we went to our retirement luncheon, I think
about two years ago, I think we said we did, we did uh you, you did
mention Dennis Keegan and that was probably what you were doing just
before you retired, you continue education off campus project. So you
could describe that a little bit more what we were doing uh at that time.
Uh
Well, I need to narrow that down because off campus was so big. We handled
overseas study programs in uh England.
We had one with Scotland Yard, which was very, very interesting. We had a
special language program, the University of Lille France, which was very
interesting. We had another one in China and I can't remember the real
focal part of that one, but I enjoyed working with overseas credit
programs. Now tell me what is an overseas credit program?
Students from a su go there or do people from there come here. How does
that work? Well, in this case, or in most of our cases, we took a select
group of people from A U to go to England.
We took a group of people from ASU who wanted to learn French
a little more better. And we went to Lille France and we often did that
because our directors of those programs were interested in French or
Spanish. And in those cases, they went to those countries. We had a real
good one in Guatemala. How long would they go for? Well, that would depend
on the credit hours involved, but most of them were five weeks to three
months roughly. And we had a year round program in England
what were they learning in England? Well,
some of it was poetry literature and uh also Scotland Yard.
What law enforcement,
what about Guatemala? Tell me about that. That was mostly a language
program in Guatemala
and mentioned in China.
I'm not too sure about the one in China, whether it was mostly in language
or just sightseeing from a historical point of view and the history of
China. I'm not so sure I did not go on that.
I was too busy setting them up. I never did get a chance to go, but I
would have to design the brochures and set them up. We have to check the
fees and have to get approval from the department chairman. And it was
quite a tough thing. Then students had to get their passports and that
took a lot,
but I enjoyed it and that's what you were doing when you retired just
before I retired. But I was doing more than that because I think we had,
well, we had 101,000 students over and above the regular enrollment of a
SU. And that's a big program. Awful big. We had special programs that we
started on the west side and we had so many on the west side, we had to
set up a west side campus
and we ran into the same problem on the east side, but we never set up an
east side campus because a SU was gonna considered on the east side, so to
speak. So that worked out real good. I think at one time we had 100 and 50
some places where we had off campus programs. It's a lot to keep track of
busy at work. It's a lot to keep track of, and a lot of students love
those campuses because generally they lived in that area and parking was
kind of restricted at ESU, at that particular time, we didn't have a lot
of parking lots for those students who came for 440 class or a 640 class.
But the 640 was not a problem because the regular students would be gone
or back to the door at that time. But we struggled and we figured out ways.
You, you started a west side campus. Is that, that's right. Tell me about
how that got started because we had so many classes on the west side and
the students wanted some relief. They didn't want to always have to come
to an. So we had a young lady who I think was on the city council at that
time and she supported the idea of a west side campus at City Council at
Phoenix.
Well, I'm trying to remember her name and normally names don't escape me.
But when I'm pressured by the element of the time, I can't think too well
right now. So, do you remember approximately when that was that you that
the west side of campus? Got started.
So, you, you're making me go beyond my age and I, I would say that was
about, uh, 6869.
I may be off on that, but about 68 or 69.
Oh, yes. Did you have, when did you, you didn't have buildings or anything
then, or did you have the land? How did you get it started? We used the
high school
and also some of the elementary schools, we would have a room or two at
certain schools in certain areas
and that courses were being taught.
Well, it ran the whole spectrum, it ran the whole spectrum.
That's where, what describe some of them. Well, the courses and uh
historical research,
most of the psychology courses that we had were offered on an extension
basis. And most of those courses that we call Cork courses that would
serve the master's student or students who were working toward a master's
degree that they would need to meet the requirements of the university.
The national, I have another John, here's one that I know you're a very
diplomatic person, but I know when you came here in the fifties sixties
that the uh integration was not really here. Uh So finding a place to live
in the community,
it might have been a problem for you. Uh you might talk about that and
then about other African Americans who were on campus and teaching, who
might have mentored you.
I don't think there were many, I was a student in early sixties and I
don't remember many. Well, let's start with that. Can we do that? Well, I
was a mentor.
There were none, there were none here before me. You were the first
African American teacher on campus. Yes. That's what they tell me. And I
didn't see anybody else
during my early period of time. I would have but I don't like to talk
about myself, but I was the first and the only one for a while then after
me came, several other instructors. Now, Art Carter became Associate Dean
of Student Affairs. If I can remember correctly, John P. Morris Deceased
was selected by Willard Pedrick. Petrick was the dean of the founding dean
of the College of Law and he came to me and wanted to know if I would help
him and I told him I would. So John Morris came and uh he was hired by
Dean Pedrick and then let's see
over in vice President George Ham's office,
Bernie Jackson was hired as assistant Dean of Student Affairs. I believe
it was called, I think George M had student affairs under him at that time.
And there were several others and they were nice dedicated students. And
the reason I can speak so frankly about these, they all looked to me and
we had a black caucus and what we tried to do was to help the university
get the best possible person that they could to work on this particular
campus. It was very effective, very effective. Eugene Grigsby, he had
taught off campus, uh, in the field of art. Gene, there was a second one.
I can't think of his name, but it would come to me this other person died
, by the way. Um
Gene Grigsby was,
was the key person if I can remember correctly. And he was a very, very
nice person. In fact, we had a big reception for him back in April or May
of this year. So he came after you though, officially. Yes. But he had
taught a few classes
off campus
all about the same time. I came
African American and there was another person Rick Woods. Now he's dead
also and he was well accepted into the School of Art and I cannot complain.
I was well accepted. At least I think I was treated well by the students
and by the faculty. And I can't say enough about the faculty. I've had
more people to leave notes on my windshield of my car or they send me a
note and said, I can't sign my name to say nice things. And I was deeply
touched and moved by those people.
If you'll turn the camera off, I'll tell you a private little story
because I don't think this should be out to the public. Um, one night
after class,
I started to gam that where I parked because parking was free and you
could always find a space over in Gamage unless your class was on the
night that they had a big performance. You leave your car at home and you
walk here, uh, a student
got into a little problem. I don't know what it was and I guess some
people were saying Lynch. So, and so now I didn't hear that but I can only
go by something that I heard
and all of a sudden
I looked around and it was like a swarm of bees coming toward me.
Well, you, you don't know whether to run hop or fly. So I stood still and
they came up to me and guess what? They said we came to protect you
something. I don't know what was going on way in the back. I don't know
what it was. I didn't raise any objections. You didn't know why you needed
protection. No, I did not. But I heard later, uh a student had gotten mad
and he had fired a pistol
but no shot came in from my knowledge toward me. And uh I was a little
shaken by that, but I wasn't going to run. Running is not in my nature.
I'm an army veteran. I didn't run when I faced the enemy. I'm not gonna
run here in America.
There weren't that many African American students on campus were there? No
, we never had a large number in proportion to the statistics and the
percentages you might see in Maricopa County, we've never had a large
number. Are you sort of a mentor for those students? Not only was I a
mentor, but I had to feed a lot of them. No, I carried a lot of them home
so they could get a, a decent meal. My wife can verify that.
And, uh, well, I, I'll just give you one case. It was a mistake made by
somebody, this person had a room in the dorm and she
thought her dormancy included the food
and it was just a mistake. That's really what it was. I don't think it was
done on purpose, but she didn't have any food. And that same thing
happened to another negro male. And so I carried them home with me and fed
them and I did that quite often for some reason, he couldn't pay his dorm
fee or he didn't have his or he ran out of money. They knew they could
come to you. Yes. And then it reached a point. I got more people involved
and, and we took care of the students during the holidays and not only did
black students need this help, but the white students also had the same
problem, especially during the Christmas holidays. They didn't have enough
money to fly back to New York or to Florida. And so they were taken into
homes near the campus or in Phoenix. So it was not universal, but it was
not uncommon.
Um, he asked about when you first came to Phoenix. Did, where did you live
when you first moved here? Well, I had the best support I believe of
anybody else uh who came now,
Viola Smith was Barry Goldwater's housekeeper. Now, Barry Goldwater had
ties in my hometown, Muncie Indiana. His wife came from there. Did you
know that?
And she knew me, but not that well, we didn't socialize together or
anything like that, but that helped me to find the right people. So Viola
Smith became my landlord and she had a nice house on the west side. She
wanted me to stay with her because we called her aunt Vi was about 87
years old and she wanted to have a man in the house. Well, I had a car and
she had no way of going shopping. So I became the chauffeur of the chef
and the whole thing and we got along fine. There was nobody like a v if
you did a wrong Barry Goldwater knew it that night. I'm telling you the
truth. And so I had probably one of the best deals ever
and I offered to pay and lie for whatever she wanted. She said, no, you're
not. I run this house and she looked like she was the type of lady that
read the house. So I said no, but I got a chance to meet uh you know,
Barry Goldwater at that time. And, and a lot of people and I found out
there were some more people from my hometown living in Paradise Valley and
gee whiz. I felt like I was at home. It, it, it was very nice and then
they would check on the, every so often or I would see them somewhere and
I enjoyed it. It was more of a small town, wasn't it back then? I mean,
people knew each other more. You mean the Phoenix area? Yes. Well, people
were a little bit more, I would say, uh
homogeneous,
but it's when it becomes so large, you don't know whether this guy
knocking on the door is going to bring in your house or whether this guy
is a salesperson. You don't know now, but people respected other people
and just about everybody knew somebody else, which made it, I would say
rather, rather easy to get along. I've enjoyed it. Now, when you first
wanted to, to get your own home, though, were there still restrictions
about the parts of town that the black people could live in? Sure.
But we talk about that. Well, all I can say is that some people
had their own restrictions and you have to honor that. But when it comes
to race in order to keep people segregated out or away, I think that's
wrong. Now, you have to remember. I'm a Korean war veteran. So when I got
out, I felt that I make that decision
and I felt that this was not only a man Given, right? But also a God given
, right? And I would seek God. And do you know what I've gone anywhere to
any restaurant at any time when I get ready? The guy said, I saw you walk
in that door. He said, don't, you know, we don't serve *** here. I said,
no, well, first of all, you have to disarm people. I said, no, he was
shocked that I said, no, he thought I was gonna run and I can remember
another time. The man said, you can't come in here. I said, hell, I went
to Korea. He said, come on.
And you see, I've learned how to disarm people. You have to disarm them of
whatever power they think they have or they claim to have or act like they
have, you have to take that away from them. And one said, um, you, you
can't eat here. That's what they said, you can't eat here. I said, well,
I'll tell all the people your food is bad.
He said, don't do that. You go back in the kitchen. I said, I'm not going
back to the kitchen.
I didn't go back to the kitchen, but I was served out front. So I, I think
it depends on who,
meaning him and who are mean and me, who do you want to believe. And I
think I convinced a lot of people without violence. I did the same thing
back in Indiana
and uh it worked and I think I would do it again. And I think we've all
reached that point of maturation that who cares who sits at the table.
That I didn't care.
We called it a mess hall and it was a mess, but
they didn't care who sat across or next to or behind.
And when the second went overseas to fight, they didn't ask me if I like
to eat with white people.
I, I just, it's beyond my ability to stoop to such levels.
A bit American. That's something we need to push away. And I think it has
been pushed away more than maybe you realize right now, I have gone to
Atlanta, Georgia when it was just as segregated as black and white.
And I walked in and the guy said, we don't serve colored people here. I
said, yes, you do. I told him what I wanted and then I looked back and you
could see the opening where the kitchen was. People were looking out at me
and you know what? I was the first one to get served out there and there
must have been 20 other people. So people have learned, I think you'd have
to look at it this way, not in terms of the color, but in terms of what's
right. And I think white America has come a long way. You, you will never
know because you're white, but white America has brought in more miracles
then you can shake a stick at, I've seen police officers not get me for
speeding, but they just wanted to know who I was. I saw you stop back
there at that stop sign. That was nice of you to stop for that old lady.
You know, you don't get that. And I'm sitting there for a mouthful.
Well, that's the type of thing that attracts people when you get mad. You
don't attract people.
You've seen a lot of change in your lifetime in the 50 s. It was a lot
different than it is today. Yes. But see, the FS was maybe the base
for the movement. And thank God it happened during the fifties.
Really.
You know, it was getting pretty hot and I know some things you don't know.
But I'm glad it happened in the 50 fifties because people were a bit more
tolerant, open to integration. Of course, that's where it started. And the
age bracket was, as far as my age is concerned during the fifties was
prime. We were a new vital force because we were Korean veterans
and we were fighting for South Koreans rights more than what black people
could have in our own country. Now, that's a dichotomy.
But you see, sometimes it takes that to wake people up.
It takes that. Now I've met a Murphy, you know who he was,
he was in the same outfield. I was the state of horse. I, I didn't know
him as a gunner for an animal man for machine gun. I didn't know him but
we've talked and we chatted and, and, uh, I don't know whether you saw the
movie to held him back that he started in while it was our company, Fox
company of the 130th infantry regiment that made that movie with him. But
you didn't see me up there at that machine gun blasting away, but I sure
was shooting. I don't know why they cut that out. But anyway, but the
thing that I'm trying to say is this thing of integration did its job and
did it with the least amount of casualties.
Yeah. And I'll, I'll repeat that with the least amount of casualties. It
was a war against hate
and those hate mongers
were wrong.
And we all knew that because in my hometown, there was a white swimming
pool called Tuy Park
and we didn't have a swimming pool. Well, there used to be a swimming pool
but
it had decayed. There was just a hole in the ground. But do you know what
the city came and spent weeks on making that pool fit?
Had it not been for integration? We never would have had that pool fixed
and it was all in
a neighbor neighborhood
and I was the lifeguard. I can tell you all about it. Guess what white
kids want to swim in the pool. And I said, you sure can. They said, can we
get in and they sweat? Never a fight, never any name calling. No problem.
Kids can do better than adults.
And it may seem amazing to you, but I've seen it now. I played on a
softball team and I had three brothers and we made up almost half the team
, the other half was white and we were good. We came within one game of
the state championship
and you know what, most of the fans were yelling for us and I knew that
was a big step. See, this thing of hate just doesn't work anymore.
Hate slows you down.
And if we hate you, we slow ourselves down. So I was chairman or the
president of the Youth Council of the N A AC P. I made some changes.
I made a lot of changes and it was for the better and I advocate that now
I started the black caucus here at a su and I had a medallion minted. I
don't have a copy with me and I gave everybody a medallion
that worked for civil rights
and you start the black caucus. It was 19
about 1960
and it was open to everybody. But it just said Black ho we had white
people too.
But if they can have White Citizens Council, we have Black August,
but I'm very pleased with the atmosphere and the relationships
in the Phoenix Metropolitan area. I think it's throughout the state now,
people can get along. We got along in the army. There weren't that many
blocks in the outfit I was in, but there were a lot of blacks under the
second infantry division and they had a job to do and they were all mixed.
When we went to Korea, we knew what our job was. It wasn't each other.
This ties in with the comment before. I didn't quite understand where they
called you out at night. There was a crowd gathered, they called you out
at night. So the reason they called you is you were the head of the Black
caucus. No, there was no such thing at that particular time called the
Black caucus. They called me out because, uh,
well, see, I generally talk to the question. Now, I'm gonna ask you to
come over here and get read out.
I'm sorry about that. But I have been taught you talk to the person that
asks the question rather than talk over here. See, I think that's rude.
But anyway, now, what was the question now, black caucus? Why did they
call you that night? The police chief and you came up and calm everything
down. They called me because I had some influence with the students were
most were, they were white students too. But mostly
it wasn't a matter of protesting. There was a problem
and I think the students gathered to protest a particular problem just
what the problem was. I don't know when the police called me at home. My
wife said you got to get up, you got to go hurry and I came out, I didn't
ask for problems. My job, as far as I could see, right away was to get the
crowds to disperse. They were, no, they weren't, not all of them, but some
of them were, I would say it was a little over half but not much over half.
What did you say to them? Actually, as the policeman said, when they
pushed me up front, it just got quiet and I looked back and saw I'll
mention this name, Chip Wheeler. You may remember that name. You remember
that name and I just did that. Everybody left
and the policeman said, just like Moses and I had never thought of being
just like Moses,
but it settled that problem. But you never found out what the problem was.
What I found out early in life was you don't bring the problem back back.
You let it go, just say it's dead.
If you talk about whatever the name was, you bring about an upsurge
to make it better bigger the next time. And I've learned, you don't
provide that opportunity to a crowd of people,
but from what I re recall, they were mostly black.
But as usual, you'll have some white and you'll have some Indians and some
Orientals in with the group. So it's hard to say, what are you? You just
go with what you have out there. And I recall one thing, the students were
very, very nice. They were very nice. And from then on I had more students
than I could advise.
They said my father is coming next week for parents weekend. I guess it
was. And I want you to meet him something like that. And see if it is on a
Friday and Saturday and Sunday, I would, I would be busier than, than
probably. But I think it taught these students violence is not always the
answer and that I broadcast that I tried to, I've got one last question. I
understand that the first phd given at a SU was given to a Black American.
That's right. That's right. Yeah, I know him but I'm trying to think of
his name. Yeah, I know him. Know him quite well. But he left about three
years later. And what's the date of your phd F off was 60.
I think it was 66 when it was converted or 65.
I don't even remember. The first one was what it was before me. It was, it
was, I think it was in the early sixties.
No, but I have it at home somewhere.
But you see, you can only keep so much of this stuff at home. I'll tell
you if you try to get, you'd be surprised the stuff I had my wife but
she's just as bad. We have so much stuff we keep going back and looking at
that. You remember this, you remember that and it takes us hours to go
through one book. But I, I remember the first black student that phd. Yeah.
So he was a friend of yours or did you, did you? No, he was not a friend
of mine at that time. No, but I knew him but he was not a close friend.
Well, it couldn't have been that, that many black students on campus back
then.
Well, I think at one time in the early years there were about 20 something.
And you're right. We, we didn't have that many to be on that particular
level.
Anything else? No, I can't think of anything. I think it's been wonderful.
Well, well, thanks for asking me. I don't know. I think that was an
accident.
Well, I've enjoyed this, enjoyed meeting all of you. Enjoyed your
questions. Your questions are fair. And I say if you don't have anything
to do, come on back, we'll do it again.
Yeah.