Today is August 3rd 2015. My name is Christina V Maman interviewing for
the Arizona State University Dinner 2040 project. Um Good morning. Could I
ask you to say your name and your uh place of birth? Absolutely. Uh My
name is Michael Hodgins. I was born in Manchester, Connecticut. So let's
talk a little bit about um where you grew up and about your. Ok. Well, I
grew up in Saratoga Springs, New York and uh my mom, Patricia and my dad,
uh Richard Hodgins. Uh we grew up in a horse racing town, um Saratoga
Springs. So it was a, it was a fairly small town at the base of the
Adirondack mountains and the population went from probably 15,000 people
in the winter till maybe quadruple, maybe five times the population uh in
the summertime when it seemed like all of New York City came up to the
horse races. Um So it was what you call probably a resort town, um which
lend itself a lot to hospitality and, and uh a lot of jobs for, for kids,
teenagers, that kind of stuff in the restaurant business. So, did you get
an early start as a teenager in the restaurant business. Yeah, I did. Yeah
, I started at, uh, 15 years old. Uh, it was my first job and it was one
of those, um, one of my classmates grabbed me and said, hey, you're
looking for a job, right? Yeah, I am. Brought me into a country club, talk
to the chef. Uh, we back then you sat out on the back dock behind the
kitchen. You got one of those green milk crates and you, you talked about
it. He's like, when can you start right now? Great. You're hired, you know
, and, uh, so I, I started dishwashing, um, which was a, you know, a good
job for the time, I think, uh, $3.35 was the minimum wage. So I was making
big bucks and I realized really quickly, um, you know, the big thing that
, that, that gave me was I realized really quickly how much I hated to do
dishes. I absolutely hated it. You know, pot sinks piled up to the ceiling
and, you know, you did everybody else's work and, you know, when the
servers are gone and the cooks are gone, you're still emptying. All the
garbage is mopping the floors and, and so I worked with a bunch of other
dishwashers and my mentor chef would come around and we'd have really big
parties for these seasonal events and he'd come around and say, you know,
I need 10 boxes or cases of shrimp peeled and all the other dishwashers
would hide and start scrubbing something and, and I was like, you know,
raise my hand and, you know, get me out of here. I'll be happy. I don't
care if it's 10 cases of shrimp. And that's kind of what, um, propelled me
into, um, my passion for cooking and food is, is, is really just getting
out of doing dishes.
Can you tell me um who your mentor chef was and why he was important in
your kind of evolution? Yeah. Um uh his name was Bob Ketcham and uh he was
classically trained. I think he went to Paul Smith's in upstate New York.
And then he had worked around the circuit in Boston and Rhode Island. So
he's very familiar with seafood. And um at the time everything was new to
me. So, uh at working at the country club, we had a rotating menu. We had
dinners on Fridays and Saturday nights. Uh and every week it was different.
So it was quite an education uh for me and actually also learning to um
cook with seasonal foods. And uh I didn't even know the term seasonal
foods back then, but I knew that they went crazy over hand melons, a farm
in upstate New York that grew Melons. And, and when the first time I heard
we were gonna serve it as an appetizer at dinner in a formal dining room,
a melon with, you know, like a twist of lime on it or something. No
preparation. Uh, I thought it was kind of crazy. But, um, when I tasted
that melon for the first time I realized, 00, my goodness. Um, kind of
like Alice Waters, um, up in Berkeley with her restaurants and she says
she's more of a, uh, p procure of foods than a chef. Uh, because if you
procure great food and it's fresh and it's, it's, you know, the best of
what it is, you don't really need to do much with it. Maybe a little sea
salt, maybe a little squeeze of, you know, citrus or acid or something. Um
, so I learned a lot of stuff about that and, and, and soft shell crabs we
worked with, which are a seasonal item. Um I knew we could only get them
for a month. You know, I didn't know why or how. I just knew that everyone
went crazy for a month or fiddle fiddlehead ferns. Uh, we could get up
there, which is kind of unique to that area in the northeast. Um So he, he
really taught me a lot about the business and I ended up working all
through high school and all through my four years of college. And how did
you change your view of food through this experience? Your first kind of
job there? Well, you know, I kind of grew up, as I would say, a somewhat
picky eater. You know, and it really, and my parents were, were both good
cooks. Um, but this definitely broadened me to a whole new world of food
that I had never experienced before. And, um, you know, if you can't taste
what you're making in the kitchen, you really shouldn't be serving. It's,
uh, you know, it just required to taste a lot of stuff and, and I realized
how, how good things could be. And, uh, I realized I really had a passion
, uh for the business. Uh, and most people in the restaurant business will
tell you if you don't have a passion, you're, you're probably crazy to
stay in the business or you're a little bit of both passionate and crazy,
which might be closer to me. So, let's talk about, um, you said you worked
at this, um, establishment during college? So did your, did your life
change? Did you take a different interest in food and how to prep the
preparation and everything or? Well, I, I went to college, uh, at, um, the
University at Albany, Suny, uh State University in New York at Albany and
actually got my bachelor's degree in history, um, with a minor in
anthropology.
But I continued to work, you know, and even through those four years I
really knew, I think by junior year that I really wanted to, to stay in,
in the food business. Um, and I had a talk from my mom who sat me down
even at 21 years old or whatever saying you have three years under your
belt. You don't know how hard it may be to go back to school. Please
promise me, you'll finish this last year. So, um, I listened to my mother
, which I didn't always do growing up, but I listened to her there and,
and I appreciate it now, um, and I knew my junior year I was probably
gonna move out to, uh, Scottsdale to go to Scottsdale Culinary Institute,
um, which is now Lake Cordon Bleu. And so I finished the last year. And,
uh, that's kind of what, what took me out west. So why was it important
for your, um, for you that your mom told you, you had to finish? Why was
that important to her? And for you? Well, I think it's certainly opened
doors in my career, um, that I wouldn't have had otherwise as far as
working at an educational institution as I do now. Um, and she just knew
which I know now and wouldn't have known then that you get busy, you know
, families come up. You know, I have a 10 year old son, Justin and a eight
year old daughter, Gabriella. And so many things come up in life that it's
so easy to just say it's not possible to, to go back and get, and get your
bachelor's degree. It could be, could be daunting to have to do that. So,
Um, I'm really glad that I did it. And how, uh, graduation day, how
excited were your parents and yourself, that you had completed your degree
? And can you? Oh, yeah, I mean, you know, very ecstatic, I guess. Um, you
know, she was definitely relieved because she thought for a minute I was
just gonna pack up the car and drive out west. Um, and, you know, I was, I
was happy, happy as well. And why did you choose Scottsdale? What was
appealing for you to go to the school? The culinary school there, the, the
appeal uh I think it was dual fold one. I had a little bit of family out
here. Uh my grandparents, um June and Albert lived out in Sun City and I
also had an uncle uh Bill and an Aunt Beth that lived in Paradise Valley
at the time. So it, it was moving cross country at a young age. But uh
there was some, some family also had a good reputation as a school and it
had an intensive uh a tense intensive associates degree at the time. And I
had just come off for four years of college and wasn't looking to get into
a and ironically, I grew up about an hour and a half, two hours north or
excuse me. Yeah, north of uh Hyde Park where the Culinary Institute of
America is one of the most famous culinary schools in the country. But
that was a that was a 2, 2.5 year program. It was very expensive. Um, so
it just made sense. Uh, and to be honest with you, I took a trip out to
visit the school and my aunt was a, teaching some law classes here at a su
and she took me around the campus and, you know, it was the middle of
February. I barely got off the ground in New York with the snow on the
wings and I walked around and there's people out here in bathing suits and
shorts and, you know, playing soccer and volleyball. And that was that,
you know, I think that helps. So, tell me a little bit about your
experience of the, in the Scottsdale culinary school. What that was like
for you, kind of the different, you know, that was, uh, it was a great
experience because I had worked in the business at that point for about
six years. Um, however, I knew the, how I knew how to make a hollandaise
sauce. I knew how to make, you know, I knew how to do a lot of things at
that point, but I didn't know why, you know, I didn't know why a
hollandaise or a caesar dressing doesn't why it holds together. I didn't
know you need protein, you need acid. I knew you had to put lemon and you
had to put egg yolks in there and you had to slowly drizzle your fat to
emulsify, but I didn't know the why behind a lot of that stuff. Um, a lot
of stuff in the baking and that kind of stuff, which is a little bit more
of an exact science. Um, I kind of learned the whys and the hows. Um, so,
I mean, my experience level gave me, I think I might have learned more
because I wasn't a deer in the headlights coming into it. Um, but they
taught me a lot of good things and I'm really glad, you know, can you
become a great chef without culinary school? You know, it's possible by
putting in a lot of years. Um, but the combination of the experience and
the school I think is the best of both worlds. What do you think was the,
um, the most memorable moment of your time in the school? Most memorable
moment? I think, uh, I, I think we had a catering class where we would do
grand buffet. Uh, and the whole school ate the grand buffet, well, ate the
buffet every day. Um, so the night school people would come in early and
the guy, the people going in during the day would come in, it would be
right after their classes and everyone would get together for a huge like
community meal every day, which was pretty cool. And, uh, for our grand
buff every three or four weeks, the class would do a grand buffet and we
did, uh, I think a New Orleans theme and we had, you know, craw Dads and
Mardi Gras music going on and, you know, all this stuff and it was just,
uh, it was pretty awesome to have all the whole school basically looking
at you like, wow, this is, this is good stuff and, and, and it brings, you
know, it brings everyone together, you know, so it's kind of a community,
community focused time. Yeah. And how was culinary school different from
getting your college degree? Uh When I, when I finished culinary school,
uh it was good, you know, um it was kind of, I was happy to be done and I
was ready to just get, you know, cause when I got my four year degree, I,
I didn't work quite as much but I worked through throughout a lot of it
during culinary school, I worked 40 hours a week. So um I was kind of
happy not gonna lie. I was kind of happy that it was done because I was
working 40 hours a week and going eight hours a day, five days a week to,
to school. Um But then, you know, the coming off of getting a Bachelor's
degree and writing 20 page research papers versus the, the work level
associated with the associate of the culinary degree was seemed a little
easier for me. So did you know that this was the right direction when you
chose? I, I did and, and going back to my mom, I think she was a little
bit nervous, you know, I think she was thinking, well, do you really want
to do this or is this just a passing phase? You know where? Yeah, you're
really into culinary and then 23 years later you're gonna want to do
something else. But I graduated culinary school in 95. So I think we're 20
years in, I don't think it was a passing phase.
So let's talk a little bit about um how you became interested in
sustainable um agriculture and ok. Um I would say my main interest came
from working from a company called Bon Appetit uh uh management s
management company, Bamco. And uh their whole tagline, their culture was
really, I mean, they walked the walk about sustainable food service, which
was great. Um So I would say they got me into it. But before that, I was
working up in the East uh East Bay. And uh I lived in San Leandro. I was
working in Oakland and my wife and I would take the B A RT um train into
the city. The first time we showed up at the ferry ferry building, farmers
market on pier one. We were just absolutely blown away, blown away. Uh
probably 200 farms there. Uh It, it wrapped from in front of this ferry
building around the backside. And then as far as you could go before
people, you know, they were right on the edge of the bay, on the water.
Like you push back a booth, they would be swimming and, I mean, it had
fresh shocked oysters. It had, um, if, when it was, um, peach season or
plum season, they would have every single farm would have little wedges
sampled up at their table. So we made a huge mistake the first, uh, the
first time. Right, because we bought stuff from like the vendors in front.
We didn't even know there was the back or the side and they were good. It
wasn't nothing wrong with it. But every time we would have another peach
or another. Wow, this is even better. Same thing with tomatoes. I mean,
they would have them sliced up and we, we thought we had the best tomatoes
we ever tasted. So we got around the back. And so then we realized really
quickly that OK, we need to do a loop around here. But um so tasting that
really, you know, really local, really fresh food, really kind of um
stimulated it and then fast forward uh a year or so, we end up moving back
to the valley here um to work where I was the executive chef at Intel uh
for the Bon Bon Appetit Management Company. And uh when I walked into that
position, so I knew their culture, but they didn't have a very big
infrastructure in Arizona at the time, only a couple of small accounts. So
they said we want you ordering from, you know, local vendors, small
farmers, you can do it. I was, you know, I said, ok, so do you have any
leads or numbers or? Well, no, not really. So, um that was in 2005.
Uh So that's kind of when I set out to, you know, I said, well, ok, I met
Pam Pamela Hamilton from Edible Phoenix who was a good resource, but I
really just started going to farmers markets and talking to vendors and
saying, here's what we're doing. And luckily at that, uh we had seven
cafes on two campuses there. So we had the ability to really buy some
volume. Uh w which was good, good and bad. It was, it was great um for the
farmers, but a lot of them couldn't keep up with the supply of the stuff
we needed. We ended up working out a deal with Cricket Sky Farms at the
time to do a restaurant style CS a uh community supported agriculture
where you would pay for a share, a weekly share or you pay upfront for a
quarter and then they'd bring you weekly shares. Um And we did that
restaurant style which, you know, has its ups and its downs, but it was
great because we were able to change our menu weekly as to what specials
we did. So we would get a bag in and near, you know, several bags, you
know, probably a couple of $100 for each kitchen worth of produce. And we
would write our menus based on what we were getting in. So let's talk
about when you first started in 2005 and kind of there being no
infrastructure. How did you sell this or how did you convince local
farmers that, you know, and just how did you build the infrastructure?
Yeah. So some of them I couldn't, uh some of them, you know, said I've
sold to restaurants in the past and you chefs are a pain in the, you know
, we'll keep it PG um But um some of them were interested in it. Some of
them I had to make a lot of concessions that I might not have made through
a more established produce company. Um There was a lot of late minute uh
you know, cancellations or calls that, hey, I know you needed those £40 of
this, but we only have 20. Um So I would say, you know, going to farmers
markets, talking to the farmers, going out to see their farms. Um you know
, uh having conversations with them, you know, like, hey, I understand, I
, I it's basically trying to get the chef and the farmer together because
we all, we both have our issues, you know, uh for farmers, a lot of its
distribution is a big issue for them and they have the product, but they
don't have the means to get it out. And we're talking about very
perishable stuff, you know, so it needs to move and, and if they have a
bumper crop, they need to move it or it's going to be plowed under. Um, so
I tried to work with them from a distribution standpoint and be flexible
as I could. Um, and, you know, they also had to know they couldn't come in
at noon with an order when the kitchen's crazy and everyone's trying to
keep up with the lunch rush and they're standing back there. Hey, you guys
gonna check in my order or what, you know, um, something else. I worked
out with a few farmers, uh Maya from Maya's Farm at one point. Uh Michael
Thompson from Love Grows Farm, which is actually no longer in existence.
But uh we worked it out where they would deliver food and then they would
take my, our compost, uh food scraps back with them. So it was just one
trip. They would drop off the food, we would throw the, they would take
our compost and uh it worked out real worked out real good. Tell me why
farmer, farmers' markets are so important to the community. Well, farmers
markets are, are real important to the community because they connect the
farms and the farmers uh to the people. You know, you have, you can put a
face to the food you're eating. And, um,
you know, I think that's, that's important because it, it's, it's
something that's been lost over time and we're getting, you know, society
is getting more and more and more disconnected from their food source. You
know, I go in and talk to elementary school kids and, you know, I think
some of them think a chicken nugget comes from a mama, chicken nugget. You
know, I mean, they, they don't even put it together with the, the, it's
this, you know, animal running around, it has feathers on it. That's not a
, no, it's, you know, the, there, there's a real disconnect and I, I think
education is so important. I mean, I would love to see curriculum in
elementary schools right up through high school of, you know, imple
implementing gardening, cooking. Um, you know, especially cooking because
a lot of people just don't know what, you know, you can go to a farmer's
market, that's all well and good. And, you know, they may be having huge
amounts of kale or Swiss chard or different greens, you know, but if you,
you're not gonna buy it, if you look at it and say I have no idea what to
do with that. Right. So, I mean, I think the education on, on basic
cooking, essentials, um, gardening, con connecting them with food. I mean
, the gardening part and the, and the, even the ranching or, or, um,
raising chickens or something, you know, for eggs, something simple like
that, for people to see what actually goes in to that, you know, and the
time, you know, when you plant a seed and you finally get something 90
days, 100 and 24 months later and all the tending and the watering and
that went into that, it's, uh, it, there's a whole new appreciation uh for
the value of food. So you mentioned the curriculum um, in going into
schools. Why is that important to kind of, um, engage the younger, the
younger generation to for the gardening and the cooking? Why is that
important? I think it's important because it, it really can, it can, once
again, it connects them to what food is and the different varieties of
food and the diversity of food that's out there. Um The diversity is, is
being lost. Um We're not preserving local, local stuff. We're not
preserving heirloom varieties of stuff. Um, a cucumber comes in many, many
different forms and shapes. You know, the Armenian cucumber grows great
out here and it's a giant, you know, cucumber, but most people, if they
even know what a cucumber looks like, whole kids, it's just the waxy,
regular um genetically modified or hybrid to, to be that, you know, so
that because food is grown right now, basically, so it can ship. I mean,
that's the, that's the genetic traits that most companies want, right?
They want to grow it so that it holds up well. So you can ship it and it
can three weeks later, two weeks later you can put it in your fridge and
it's still, it's still good but you're losing flavor. You're losing all
kinds of diversity. And I think, uh, you know, if I go in and hold up a
beat, um, or a fig in, in a classroom of elementary school because there
might be one or two kids out of 30 that know what they are. And that's,
that's kind of scary to me. So, I, I think just even introducing whether
they're gonna like him or not at that time, you know, I know myself, I
didn't like, I wouldn't need to beat at eight years old. I probably had to
try it. I think that was part of the part of the thing, but I, I can
understand and stronger flavors and they, you develop taste as you get
older. But I think just planting the seed uh no pun intended of, of
showing them this kind of stuff and showing them gardening and what it,
what it actually means. And it's a life skill too, you know, it's, it's a
life skill. Um because food is obviously one of the things that we, we
need. So you mentioned um the community when they sit down at the dinner
and that's important. Can you talk a little bit about, about that
community that comes together when they sit around the table? Because I've
heard that thing throughout the interviews that I've done. Yeah, I think
uh food, I mean, the bottom line is food brings people together and it
brings, uh, you know, if you have people over your house and you
entertained, food is always a central, is a central theme. Um, I like the
fact that in Europe and, and other countries, food is considered the plan
for the evening. Right. So the meal is the plan. Whereas here it's like,
ok, what are we gonna grab before we go out to the movies or to the, you
know, in Europe it's more like we're gonna have a three hour dinner and
you know, that not gonna eat any more food. Really. It's just gonna be
paced out and we're gonna have fun and, and talk and enjoy each other's
company. Um, and I, I think it's just a common bond that, that, that
connects a lot of us and it's a great time to really just breathe and, and
, and talk and I don't think, you know, we do enough talking, uh, you know
, seems like more, um, of a, you know, you drive into your garage, you
close your garage, you walk into the house, you get in your car, you open
your garage, you go back to work and, um, it's not like, you know, so I'm
sounding old or dating myself right now, but I mean, it's not like, uh,
when we grew up, all the neighbors were out on the, in the front porches,
the front yards and, you know, it seemed like there was a much more
connected interaction now and I think when you can sit people down, um,
around a table to eat good wholesome food that they're just kind of a,
just a band. Ok. So I'm gonna go back to talk about, uh, when you first
arrived in 2005 and you said there was no, there was no connection to, um
, local farmers and they were not, um, supporting what was grown here
locally. How did that movement change or how did you help that movement
change? Well, I think, um, it, it was unique for what we were doing with
the type of company I was working for working as a corporate dining uh
facility. There wasn't, there was people obviously in that movement
supporting local farmers, but they were mainly mom and pop type
restaurants. Um, and it's a challenge for a lot of operations that don't
charge the price points of a more, you know, for a more fine dining
restaurant. You know, I can get uh $15 for a nice beet and goat cheese
salad. Whereas if I'm working at a corporate dining facility serving lunch
, you know, uh my price point is gonna be a lot lower. So it, it becomes a
challenge. Um, but I think just the fact that we started doing that and we
started educating our consumers. Um, and that's a hu I, that's a huge part
of it. Um, because you could be serving great local beats. And your
customers might realize the fact that they're great tasting. But I think
it's important that, that you market and let people know what you're
serving because that gets them thinking. Oh, wow, we can get this, you
know, a lot of people wouldn't even consider the fact that that could have
even been grown in Arizona. I know I couldn't, I didn't when I moved out
here. Um, I mean, I, when I, when my company asked me to start making
connections, I was looking around at the, the Swar cactuses and going all
right, I don't see anything growing out here, but Yuma, Yuma is the food
hub for the, the winter for the United States as far as lettuces and, and
produce. Um So as soon as northern California shuts off in the winter time
, Yuma picks it up. So we do grow, you know, that's three hours away from
here, but we grow a lot of food in the state of Arizona. And then there's
a lot of, I would say the number of local farms since we first started has
probably quadrupled. So there's a lot more people doing it. But I i it's a
hard business. It really is and you don't benefit obviously from economies
of scale. Uh like the big monoculture farms do. So there is, there's
barriers as far as price being probably one of the, one of the biggest
barriers. Um and the education going back to the education of people to
realize, you know, this is worth this. You know, that's, that, that's the
hard part when we live in a dollar menu society. Um, when the federal
government is subsidizing uh monoculture, large conglomerates and corn and
wheat production and all of this, it's because you can't make a chicken
sandwich for a dollar. You just cannot make a chicken sandwich and not go
out of business. So you either have to be using not chicken, a lot of
products that are subsidized like corn. So you have corn syrup in there
and you got, you got all kinds of layers of, of filler and then the bun is
made with, you know, corn syrup and subsidized wheat. And, but so the
value I think people, um it has to become a priority and right now, I
don't think it is for the majority of people and I can understand that. Um
, because, you know, some people just, if you're choosing between filling
your kids bellies with calories and being able to get out and get
nutritious food, it's a, it's a struggle. So I hear you talk a lot about
business in the background. Um, has that become a major kind of um player
in your, in your role your role at Intel did with the, with the business
skills kind of, did you need to acquire quick, quickly the business set?
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Can you, can you talk about that because
usually when you think of chef you think of just food and just creative.
Yeah, creative. And you get to taste but they don't talk about the
business skills and I, I hear that coming up. Oh, yeah. I mean, at the, at
the end of the day a business has to, at the very least break even, you
know, if you're, if you're losing money you're not going to be, uh, a
business very long. So, um especially with the bigger the operation. Um I
, you know, as executive chef of a place with seven different outlets, I
didn't do a lot of hands on cooking. I mean, I, I did, but my role was
more of an a like an executive type role where, um, you know, making sure
that our, our labor costs were in line that our food purchasing costs were
in line. Um And that's hard when you're getting a, you know, weekly
conference call telling you, you know, you, you three point percentage
points high on your food cost, but yet you want me to buy food that's cost
more, you know, a a and it's long, it's uh short term costs, you know, are
more the long, I mean, the long term costs are, are much better for our
environment better for people's nutrition. So, um there's a big difference
between the short term and the long term costs. But when you're on a day,
a weekly conference call, it's short term costs that they're talking about.
Um But yet I felt fortunate to work for a company that, that did care
that much about um serving food. We had a, we had to eat local challenge
every year there where we would serve, try to make the whole entire cafe
from within 100 and 50 miles. All the products in there. We had a low
carbon uh low carbon diet day. So uh serving low carbon footprint stuff.
So we pulled our burgers from the grill that day. We, we did some stuff.
The only thing that I got the 911 call from was in California. Uh because
we, our company was doing the in several intel properties in California.
One of the properties pulled the cream for the coffee uh because because
beef cattle is highly, highly has a high carbon footprint, right? So they
pull the cream for the coffee and you do not mess with people's coffee
that that was the uh get the phone call. You guys serving cream. Yeah. OK.
Good. Do not pull the cream. They're about to riot for their morning
coffee, which I don't blame them, but we got to do a lot of really good
stuff. And I, I really um was educated quite a bit into what
sustainability in the food system uh means from a multifaceted perspective.
I mean, from where you're sourcing it from, you know how you're preparing
it and how, how are you disposing it. So um are we completing the whole
circle of food? Yeah. So let's ask you, since you brought that up, how
would you define food sustainability? I think sustainability in general,
food sustainability is just allowing future generations um to grow and eat
and provide for themselves wholesome food. Like our, you know, with our
like our current generation can and without jeopardizing them, you know,
eating and providing people with food without jeopardizing future
generations from being able to do the same for their families. Now you
mentioned the full circle a little bit about what that full circle is.
Yeah. And that's something we teach um at Rio. So Auto College in our, in
our sustainability program is or in our food sustainability program is,
the full circle would be from planting that seed or raising that animal to
how to do that without hurting the environment, how to do that organically
, how to um add things to the soil, natural things, um how to use um
different kind of plantings, uh trap crops. So I might plant mint next to
my peppers because I want all the insects to have a party on the mint and
not to eat my peppers, you know, um intercropping, which is the opposite
of large monocultures. Um whereas pests uh can't come in and get too
comfortable because they don't have, I mean, as uh our gardener, Josh puts
it in Iowa, if you're, if you're a bug that likes corn, you know, you're
gonna signal for your whole family and everybody to move in. Right? And
you're never gonna leave because you have an endless food source. And
that's why the, they have to spray so many pesticides on those big
monoculture fields because there's no, nothing to dissuade the insects
from coming. They have endless, you know. So, um we employ all kinds of
different techniques um to grow naturally like that. Um And then the
students would uh harvest the food, bring it into the kitchen, um show
them different ways to prepare it. Um Talk about, you know, healthy
cooking techniques. Um And then what happens with, you know, your
trimmings or your coffee grounds or your, your egg shells? Um What do we
do with those and how we get them back into the compost at our garden,
which gets back into the, the uh bed. We have, we get wood chips donated
or even some of our on site landscapers will, will chip trees up and
they'll bring them to the garden. And then that will just go in right with
our food scraps to generate soil, to grow healthy food again. And you're
really looking at, you know, I wouldn't say it's 100% 0 waste. I'm not
sure we'll ever get there, but uh it's very little waste because you're
just completing that whole cycle and you're going right back into growing
more food. So let's talk a little bit about uh real real Sola college.
Sorry. Um How did you get involved with this organization? Uh I got
involved initially as an advisory board member for the program, the
Sustainable Foods Program that was newly um a new program that they formed
a bunch of community members that were uh actively working in the
community with sustainable foods. Um And I, I had hoped to teach for the,
for them as a, as an adjunct um teacher and continued to do what I was
doing and one thing led to another and I actually ended up starting the,
the program uh with a blank slate basically um to, to kind of a dual role
um to oversee the cafe, kind of a general management type of oversight of
the cafe uh and the catering programs. And then also make sure that all
our we're in, we're primarily an on online school. However, are we have a
, a culinary uh cooking class? We have a baking class, the gardening class
, which all are what we consider hybrids. So the students take their
didactic portion of the course online and then they come in and do their
lab or clinical portion in the kitchens or the or the garden. So tell me
what your um your goals and your mission are for um the School for the
Culinary for the Sustainable Foods Program. I, I'd say the goals and the
mission are to create a sustainably
minded workforce. Um You know, we're an occupational program and we wanna
, we wanna
empower, uh, students to have that knowledge to go out there and get into
the industry and even if, you know, a lot of them won't necessarily open
their own restaurants or, or go completely farm to table type of thing.
But even, no matter where they go, we want them to know that there are
other options than, than just finding one broad, uh, what we call a broad
liner provider. Um that will give you everything from bleach to ground
beef, you know, and that's the easier way. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm gonna be
honest with you, that's the easier way if you can do one order, boom, you
know, from your bleach to your burger, to your broom to your and then hit
send and it all shows up on a giant, you know, semi the next day and, and
we still use broad liner companies, you know, I mean, we need to get
products from them and I'm not completely anti that, but there's so many
local farms here and places that pro produce raised pork here, locally
beef within the state, uh you know, ground beef, that kind of stuff, many
local farms uh throughout the area that to integrate those. It is, it's
very doable and, and it's not that much harder and it never feels wrong,
you know, it always feels like you're doing the right thing and the taste
is awesome. But the relationships too. The relationships that you form
with the, with these farmers and these ranchers, you know, are, are pretty
amazing. I think so. I guess the mission is really to create a new, a new
workforce and a new, um, a new way of thinking amongst them. And even if
they can't, you know, they're not going to be able to change the world in
a lot of their companies where they're going to have kind of set specs of
what they do. But even if they can infuse, you know, this or hey, can we
start working with this company a little bit? I think it's for me,
sustainability is not either here or there, you know, one end of the
spectrum or the other. It's not all or nothing. I think you want to be
moving at all times towards, you know, becoming more sustainable. But I
think if you look at it as an all or nothing approach for me, I think
people get defeated very easily and think, well, we can't do it because
this is too expensive. But what little baby steps can you do to, to slowly
increase the sustainability of your restaurant or, or eating at home? You
know, uh your home eating same, same thing, you know, can you grow, can
you plant something in your backyard? Doesn't have to be a full production
, you know, huge garden but, you know, or some fruit trees or, you know,
uh lettuce swiss, chard, that stuff grows like amazingly here. You know,
can you put in a, just a little bed in one little area, a little raised
bed or something? And every night you have salad that you can go clip and
, um, uh, for me, I have a garden in my backyard and there's, there's
nothing cooler than going out there and grabbing, you know, whether it's
dinner or whether it's a side to the dinner. I mean, it's, it's beautiful.
Tell me the difference between growing it locally or having access to it
locally, the local flavor versus shipping it hundreds of miles away.
What's the difference? Well, the d, I mean, the difference is, it could be
summed up in, you know, the word fresh, I guess. But, um, nutrition is a
huge part of it and food that's picked food, uh, nutrients degrade rather
quickly as soon as something's picked and they just start going downhill.
And if you can pick something, I mean, in a perfect scenario, like I'm
talking about going out in my backyard and clipping arugula, like 15
minutes before dinner. I mean, that is packed, you're gonna have all the
nn nutrients that thing can offer you. Um, and when it's picked and
shipped, you know, once again, it's probably gonna be picked under ripe,
depending on what it is. It's like it's a tomato, it's gonna be picked
green and it's gonna be shipped and then gasped to turn. I won't even call
it red. I refuse to call it red. I think it's like a pink color they
become in the supermarket. Um, but they don't have flavor either. Um When
you let something grow on a vine and ripen right there, pick it and serve
it, you're gonna develop all the sugars, all, all the intricacies, the
flavors are gonna be developed and ready to eat when you ship something.
Not only is it losing its n nutrient value, but it's losing, it's losing
flavor, not losing flavor, but it never fully developed that flavor. So,
tell me a little bit about um what is the most satisfying aspect of um
your work at Rio? So
I just can't get that. I'm just gonna give you a G in there. I don't care
if you don't have one. You can go with Rio. Let's go with Rio. I think the
most satisfying thing is um you know, working with the students. Um and,
and the staff and the community members that come in to the cafe area um
to be able to once again show them there's a different way than just a
foil wrapped burger. Um uh And to really show them AAA large variety of,
of what we can do here with local foods and what, what grows here. Uh We
have an on site garden um that we also harvest um quite a bit of what we
use in the cafe. Um And to show them, you know, people will come in and
they'll say you didn't, that you didn't grow that here. Yeah. You know,
and our garden is open, you know, for anyone to walk around anytime. Um
But just, I think just to educate the community is the most satisfying. Um
And obviously the students, but everyone that comes in there to just kind
of talk and tell our story about, you know, what we're trying to do and,
and how it's possible to do that. Um And do it in your own. I mean, a lot
of people go back and they'll come in and they're like, hey, I went to the
farmer's market, you know, last week or I planted this and, you know, and
we'll, we'll tell people because they'll go, they'll say, well, I can't
grow anything, you know, I, I, and trust me, I had a black thumb when,
when I first started planting gardens and it's just a little bit of know
how, um and that's kind of what we give them in our program, but we'll
also do the same thing if someone just comes in the cafe and they're,
they're asking us questions, you know, I'll take them out to the garden
and I'll show them stuff. They'll talk with Josh Sundberg, our, our
gardener um about his philosophy of growing things and how to do it
because it's, it's very intimidating when you come from the Midwest when
you come from, uh even upstate New York, I mean, it seemed like we could
throw seeds in and it just, you know, you get all the rain and things grow
and it's intimidating to see this clay soil that you can't even put a
shovel through. You know, you're, you're like, you're digging for gold
with a pick just to, to get a little dirt in, but you can grow a lot of
stuff here. It just, it just, you need the right, you know, amendments and
you need to build the soil a little bit. Um But compared to a lot of the
country that's under snow for majority of the year, we can, we can grow a
lot of food here. Let's talk about the gardening class that you have at
Rio and how that started and why that was important to, to the program.
Sure. Um And that started as a basically when we were putting together the
curriculum for the Sustainable Foods Program. Um And we thought it was
important for once again, for if we were gonna talk about this full circle
um to show students, you know what it took um to grow something and how
important that is. And once again, like I talked about earlier, the
appreciation of what went into, you know, if you're eating a burger or
whatever you're eating, you know, that I would say many of us including
myself at many times would take that slice of onion or that slice of
tomato on that burger for granted. You know, but when you actually get in
there and you plan it and you see it grow and everything that went into,
you finally pick that beautiful tomato. It's almost like you don't want to
eat it, you know. Wow. But, but yet, you know, I don't think there's an
appreciation out there for what that really takes and what the value of
that should be. Um, it, it, it doesn't, it's not gonna be, I mean, it, it
takes time and money to grow something that, that's that good and that
flavorful. What is your students reaction when they do the gardening class
? And they start and how, how I, I'd say it's one of the probably one of
the favorite classes in the program. Um, most of them really enjoy. Uh, I
think there's something about, you know, now if they were taking it in
August or something, they might not enjoy it quite as much, but we tend to
run them in the later fall and earlier spring. Um, I think it's something
about being out in nature that, um, lets people kind of breathe and
working with your hands, um, to see that. So it, it's definitely, it's a
favorite class in many of the students. So let's talk a little bit about,
um, you said the full circle and the compost bin. Um Are there things that
you, why is that, why is that last feature important? Because people
mainly are talking about growing, but they're not about the full circle.
Why is that last component important to the full circle? Right. Well, for
a couple of reasons, one, if all those food scraps are going in the land
fill, they're gonna compost anaerobically, they're gonna be buried in
layers and layers of food. So they will break down, but they're going to
break down anaerobically, which means they're gonna be emitting methane
gasses, which, which we know is not good for the environment. Um The other
part of that is it's going to provide a natural fertilizer for our garden
to grow the next generation of things. And if we don't have that, then
we're going to have to bring in the plants need to eat just like you and I
do. So they need to have some kind something, some kind of nutrition and
they're not going to get it just if you just keep growing food eventually
, what's in the soil is going to be depleted. So you need to add something
back to it. So it's either gonna be miracle grow or some kind of purchased
fertilizer, which uh we don't think is as good. You know, chemi, it's
chemically derived, it takes a lot of petroleum and, and other things to
produce it. Um So we, we get, we get a dual, dual uh benefit from it.
We're not, we're not adding any extra greenhouse gasses and we have a free
supply of fertilizer basically. To help our next generation of plants go
and just continue around that circle. OK. Can you tell me um why do you
think it is? Why do you think food sustainability is important? Just kind
of the overall
uh overall, I think it's important just, just because uh kind of when I
referred to my definition earlier about the fact that, you know, I I want
us all to be nourished well, but I also don't want to jeopardize future
generations from being able to nourish them and my family, my grandkids,
my grandkids kids, I want them to be able to eat the same healthy foods uh
that we're able to eat and, and not, um you know, a lot of the practices
now really do a lot to deplete the earth. Um Yeah. Do you have any
concerns over industry's power within the food system itself? Uh Yes. Yeah
, I think there's a, there's a lot of uh not a lot, a few major
conglomerates and, and big uh you know, corporations that are more and
more controlling the food system um from seed to, to fertilizer, putting
patents on stuff. Um you know, terminator seeds, seeds that will grow for
one generation and then you can't harvest the seeds from the plants. Um
and that stuff, you know, genetically modified foods are obviously huge.
Um Right now. Um And then a lot of it is some of these, a lot of these
seeds can blow from you know, a field that is a patented field into a
field that's not and basically show the same characteristics. And next
thing, you know, you have companies coming after farmer b because farmers
a, a cross pollinated his crops and all of a sudden he can't save the
seeds or he has a company coming to him with a lawsuit saying you didn't
pay for this technology. Um, it's becoming very,
very, uh, it's like, uh, something about patenting food that just doesn't
sit easy with me. Tell me, can you explain to people that don't understand
, what are the, um, what are the, what is genetically modified food and
why should people be aware that their food is in that? Yeah. Well,
genetically modified is taking genes from, you know, 11,
a foo, uh, food animal, whatever you could take fish genes and put it in
corn or it's, it's, you know, playing a lot with our crops and, and we
really don't know the long term effects that will have on human health, I
think is one of the scariest things about it. And I, I think a lot of the
people, even if they're against it, they want to at least be able to be
aware that their food. And, uh, you know, food labeling is very, very big
right now. There's a lot going on with that in the government. And, um,
yeah, I think it's the, just the fact that we really don't know, and, um,
I think it's being sold at a, sold to the public as, you know, we'll never
have enough food to feed the millions or billions if we don't use
genetically modified foods. Um, but there's also a huge distribution
problem in the country. There's a lot of food waste, there's a lot of
stuff that gets, you know, plowed under. Um, there, you know, you look at
most studies, there's enough food in the world. It's just the distribution
of it and, and the equity of distribution of it too. Can you elaborate a
little bit more about the food distribution issue that there is and what
that entails and what it's, you know, it's getting, uh, I, I, it's getting
food from point A to point B really. I mean, in the simplest, the simplest
terms, I mean, we have food coming in from Mexico at the border that, you
know, companies will go through it and if it doesn't meet, you know, the
grade A or grade B standards, if they can sell it in the supermarket or
the market or it's a, you know, has an awful look or whatever, they'll,
they'll rot in, in piles. I mean, and this is wholesome food but it just
doesn't meet the standards. Um, there's some companies that actually go
down there and get that food and do, I think market on the move is one of
them and some different companies that try to get that food out there. But
there's a lot of farmers that don't have, you know, smaller farmers that
don't have resources to get the food out there. Um It's like I said, it so
much food, food is so perishable that it really, it really takes a, a very
organized system to make sure it's getting to the right people. Um And
then the distribution and then the retail, like the end user is a, is a
big thing too because we have food deserts out there and we have areas of
where people don't have access to the food. The food is there. It's being
grown but it's not getting, you know, there's either not stores in the
area, people don't have transportation, um, very low, very low income. So
they're back to the, you know, the dollar menu thing, you know. Do I want
to get some calories in my, my kids bellies or do I want to get on a bus
and go around town looking for fresh food? Um, so I think that's one of
the things we need to work on in the future definitely is access to, to
fresh food and access to fresh food in a manner where it's not price
restrictive, you know, is a big thing and it's, and it's more available as
far as, you know, if, if I have one farmer market in my area and it's on
Saturday from seven to noon and I work Saturday from seven to noon. I'm
out of luck, you know. Um, so it's access is, is, I think one of the
biggest things as far as, uh, food, you know, justice that we have to
really, really work on. Can you talk a little bit about it? I know you've
kind of covered this, but we're just gonna kinda recap what the challenges
are to food sustainability,
I think. Uh, yeah, I think there's a lot of people that want to um produce
food in a sustainable manner. But the diff I think some of the
difficulties are the fact that um they're generally smaller scale
operations. Um They're not working on economies of scale. Um They're not,
they're not beating the land up. So they're not putting a ton of extra
fertilizers and pesticides to grow the, you know, the biggest output in
the smallest amount of land. So they have to charge more to, to stay in
business. And I think price is, you know, when it comes down to the bottom
line, it's one of the biggest things uh for whether it be a restaurant
tour or, or a consumer at a farmer's market. Um You know, that, that, that
to me is the number one challenge is to be able to somehow and, and I
think that comes with um working with the federal government and working
with subsidies. I mean, we're incentivizing the growing of the corn and
the wheat and, you know, we have corn syrup and everything. Well, I wonder
why. Right. I mean, this corn syrup developed because farmers had nothing
to do with all these, this corn, you know, they had no more outlets for it.
Well, what else can we do with all this extra corn that's sitting here?
So they came up with different, different outlets for it. And when, when
you subsidize something, it becomes so cheap and becomes a filler in all
of our food, It, it's just, it's just a backward system. Iii I believe, I
think, uh, if we could start subsidizing the smaller growers, there are
people that are growing sustainably and, you know, make that a cheaper
alternative. I think it would, you know, the long term effects of that
would be outstanding on human health nutrition. Um, you know, nutrient
dense food is, you know, in my opinion, the best thing to eat. But once
again, if it's that versus calories and you have to make that choice and
you don't have access and you don't have education, that's right back to,
you know, getting the education early on cycles of families. You know,
well, this is how we ate and this is how mom did. And, you know, we got
this and we went and got a burger this night and Kentucky Fried this night.
And, you know, my kids, they brought home last year, I think, or two
years ago, a big one of the big fundraisers for their elementary school
was a coupon book. You know, as you may you might have seen. And I, I'm
not even kidding. The first, I think 23 pages, 23 pages were mcdonald's
Kentucky Fried Chicken Burger King Wendy's. Now, I'm not some saint that
doesn't ever have fast food. And, uh, you know, we like our In N Out
Burgers from time to time and our, you know, our other things. But I mean
, we're wondering why we have an obesity epidemic. And the main fundraiser
is sending home and you want to buy the, like, I, I bought it and didn't
take the book. I just said, here's the 20 bucks or whatever. Um But that's
an incentive whether, you know, for parents to go do that, you know. Well
, we got two for one here and which, and it's all the 1st 22 pages and I
don't know the, I mean, it's not a simple answer. I wish I could just say
, well, let's just do this, this and this. But you know, their answer to
me when I talked to the PT A president who happened to be my neighbor,
which I didn't realize at the time it was very awkward the way that
unfolded. She was like, oh, hi Michael. I'm like, oh man, I wish I knew
that before I wrote this email. But ok, um you know, she's like, hey, it's
the biggest fundraiser we have for the year and, you know, I didn't have
an alternative to that. So, um, so it's, I mean, it's a, it's a big
fundraiser but it's like, it's, it was 20 something pages of everything,
fast food. And, uh, I don't know. Ok. Um, can you talk, what should the
food system in Phoenix look like in 2040? Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah
, what, what would I hope cause if I knew the answer to doing that, you
know, there's a lot of people that wish that they had the answer to that,
but I, I would like to see it more re regionalized definitely. Um And I
think whether it be co ops or some kind of distribution centers that could
help the smaller farmers get their product to market. Um So they could
spend more time doing what they know how to do, which is grow food and
less time running around in vans trying to sell it before it goes bad. Um
I think that would be very helpful. Um But definitely, I'd like to see it
structured more where, where we're more self supportive and, and we're,
and we're preserving uh traditions too and preserving um plants, you know
, like peppery beans or, I mean, you can get a lot of great, great, great
food here. Um Cactus prickly pear, you know, prickly pear u using more
things that grow here uh for years and even things that maybe haven't
grown here for years, you know, but things that grow well here and they,
they're not resource intensive, you know, fig trees, things like that,
that just grow, you know, pomegranates. They grow amazingly well, here
they don't need a ton of water. Let's, you know, integrate more, more of
those who went down to date in Arizona, uh which grows dates. I don't, I'm
sure that's a shocker but, and uh they have dates everywhere and, and, and
they're delicious. They, they make date milkshakes and uh we took a trip
down there with my staff to Blue Sky Farms who was there at the time that
had just this organic farm in the middle of the desert. It was just a
complete oasis. Um But, but really using uh you know, mesquite, mesquite
flour um keeping alive some of these traditions of foods that have
sustained people for, for years. And so you've mentioned 22 organic farms
that have already seems like they've gone under saying that they were
actually blue skies is still a farm, but they, they, they moved back to
the uh to the valley. Yeah, so I was gonna ask but, but the uh the love
grows farms is no longer existing and a and small farm farming is a risky
business. Um I would, I would say it's comparable to the restaurant
business, which is another very risk risky business. Um And it's almost
like they're not playing on an even playing field. You know, when you,
when you, when you open a small farm or you open a small restaurant, your
competition is, is big, is big ag, it's big corporations, you know. Um,
you go to a mom and pop restaurant in the summer here in Arizona on a
Tuesday night, you might see like two other tables in there. You go to
Cheesecake Factory and during the recession on a Tuesday night in the
summer, which is our off season and there's a wait at the door. So, I mean
,
I don't know the answer. What policy changes would you think would help to
towards a more sustainable food system in 2040? Yeah, I mean, I think, I
think the big one would be to completely rook at what we're doing with
subsidies uh in the federal government and uh giving the um smaller
farmers more of an advantage because quite honestly, the big monoculture,
big agriculture, huge companies have a huge advantage with all the
government subsidies they get. Um and that puts, once again, it puts the
whole, I think it puts it devalues food and the fact that consumers think
that food only costs that much to grow and that's what it's worth. And
then you have somebody that's growing it on a smaller scale, not getting
subsidies growing it sustainably looking towards future generations and
they have to charge more. Um But yet I think the ed the perception, the
consumer perception is that well, that's too much. Um So we need to make a
prior I think food, good food, real food, wholesome food needs to be more
of a priority. And folks 20 years ago didn't have an extra $70 in their
budget to pay for cell phone bill. They didn't have that. They were like,
if you told someone that 20 years ago they'd be like, you're crazy. I
don't have that money, but yet somehow they work that into, into their
budget because it became a priority to have a cellphone. And I think, I
think if it becomes a priority to eat, you know, more wholesome food,
there's, you know, there's a, there's a way to do that. It just has to
become a priority uh in your life. Ok. Um Final question is, can you share
with us your fondest food, memory,
my fondest food, memory, cooking or boy, I don't know, eating or? Yeah, I
have so many. Oh, a couple.
Ok. Let's see. Uh
um All right, I'll get, I, I'll give you, I'll give you a couple. Um not,
not cooking or creating really. But uh we, I was a part of a leadership uh
program for one of the companies I worked with. And when we graduated from
that, they took us to Napa. Um and we went to uh Coppola Winery, Francis
Ford Coppola's Company and they took us down, they had set up in the
basement of the private Coppola cellars, uh a table for our group like 15
people just in the wine cellar. Just Sophia Coppola. His daughter was
being nominated for uh a Oscar, uh, that night they wheeled in a TV into
this old rustic wine cellar. So that kind of was, was kind of like what's
going on. Oh, well, his uh uh his daughter is being nominated. So we're
eating this, I mean, unbelievable, probably six course meal, all locally
sourced, you know, drinking the wines and just having a, having a great
time. So if you have a couple of wins, the, you know, so there, the place
is erupting and it just, and it was, it was, it was pretty cool. Um You
know, other food memories. Uh growing up, we used to go, we used to go up
in summer vacations up to Maine or we also went down sometimes to more of
the Delmarva area or Virginia, North Carolina and uh gathering seafood. We
used to go out to the rocks and pick Mussels, um and eat them. Um, down in
um Virginia in North Carolina, we would put out crab traps for blue crabs
and actually catch, you know, 1520 crabs and have a big, you know, put the
newspapers out on the table, big crab boil type of thing. Um That was
pretty cool. Um God,
you know, uh my mom's spag gotta, gotta give mom spaghetti with meat sauce.
It was a classic growing up. Um Really awesome. Uh As far as, you know,
cooking, there's, you know, some big, uh, big events in my history that I
remember doing. We did, uh, we did an event in Saint Louis one time for
13,000 people. Uh, three course, three course dinner, salad stool entree.
I think it was like filet and seafood. Uh, plus a dessert for 13,000
people that takes a, takes a few days of planning if you can, few days of
planning. Um, you know, just, uh, yeah, I, what do you enjoy most about
cooking?
I think I enjoy, I enjoy the, the creativity of it. I really like the
creativity of it. And to be honest as far as not at home, but in the, in
the business, I think I en, I think I enjoy the, the camaraderie and the
teamwork and almost the adrenaline rush of, you know, because you're
always behind in the restaurant business, you're always working, like to
try to keep up, you know, and at the end of the day you, you know, you
feel like you accomplished something, I mean, you nourish people. Um, you
, you, there's, there's a very instant sense of gratification, I think
from, from doing that. And you worked as a, as a team because there's very
few places where you're there by yourself. You know, you have to
coordinate a lot of things with a lot of people. It's almost like an
orchestra back, back in the kitchen of everything coming together. If
you're gonna have really good hot you know, not cold hot comes to the
table beautifully presented. There's so much that went into that from
producer of every single item to the actual cook, um, that put everything
away and stored it in the refrigerators to the cook that pre prepped it to
the cooks that are now searing it or, you know, bro, roasting it, whatever
they're doing to the fact that it all has to come together and get plated
hot at one time, put up and then delivered to you. So it's, it's really a
lot of moving parts going on in the preparation of food. Um So, II, I
think, you know, I really like that and it's definitely um relaxing to me
at the same time, which is hard to believe it's stressful and re and re
and kind of re a 12 hour day in the kitchen. Seems like a 34 hour day. I
mean, it goes by so fast. Um You know, I haven't, the last few years, I
haven't, my role has taken me more outside of the kitchen. Um But I still
love uh when they do, let me back in the kitchen, I still do teach classes
and uh do non credit workshops and that kind of stuff. So, but yeah, I
think uh definitely that just being able to really see the satisfaction on
someone's face when, when you put your heart and soul into what you're
creating and to see the fact that they, how much they appreciate it. Can
you just one more question to someone who does not like to cook or does
not see, sees the value of cooking would prefer to go to the driver. I
mean, how do you convince that person that it's worth going to the grocery
store and making that meal?
It's difficult because we live in a world of a lot of competing priorities
and, and families and longer work schedules. And, um, some people I would
say really for the most part it's probably not a, not a reality that
they're gonna do it. I mean, they're just so busy. But what I, what I
would say is you're gonna cook something, cooking yourself, you're gonna
get, if you're buying fresh produce, if you're buying decent ingredients,
you're gonna, you're gonna get, there's, I don't know, a s,
a satisfaction, uh, you're gonna nourish yourself a heck of a lot better.
But at the same point it's a tough argument to make sometimes because
there's nights when I get home and I, I don't want to cook, you know, it's
, it's like the bowl of cereal night. Right. We don't do that very often.
But I remember my mom used to, used to, she was like, it's funny too
because my mom is a great cook. Um, but she was, she'd get home after a
tired night at 67 o'clock and she, she was like, give me a bowl of cereal
or whatever. And I'm going to sit and watch the news or whatever. Whereas
my dad would get home at eight o'clock at night and he, he'd get the clam
sauce going, you know, get the linguini over here. He's chopping his
parsley for his clam sauce. And so two different, two different things.
But some, it's just, some people, it's never gonna be their thing, I don't
think to cook, they're just not gonna, not gonna enjoy it. Um But uh I
think, and I, I think a, I'm not sure, but I think a lot of it is, is
almost a fear of cooking as well. Um a lack of knowledge of how a few
simple concepts or techniques can really expand, really expand. Um And I
can be that way after 27 years in the industry, something if I've never
done something and I have it worked up in my head that it's this huge
process and then you do it and you go through it and you're like, that
wasn't hard. It was pretty easy. So, I mean, it's not rocket science and
that's what we tell our students and that's what um you know, my mentors
told me growing up, he said, if you're, if you're a brain surgeon and
you're having a bad day at work, you know, there's some really re some,
some repercussions, you know, if you don't perfectly salt or perfectly
season the dish life goes on. So, ok. Um One last question when you're
preparing a meal, you said that your heart and soul goes in it. Do you
think that's, you can taste that when you actually? Oh, yeah, absolutely.
I think, I think, you know, when somebody puts love or heart and soul into
what they're making, um, you can taste it, you can, you can see it in the
preparation. Um, you can see it in the, the care they put into, just
putting it on the plate. What it looks like. Did they wipe the rim of the
plate or is it kind of messy even in, even in a uh uh fast food? For
example, I mean, there's times when you get, you just open something
that's perfectly folded, everything looks just fresh and like you can tell
somebody put, you know, whether it's their pride for doing a good job or,
or what it is, you, there's a big difference, there's a big difference in
it. You, you, you can ultimately taste it in my, in my opinion, any final
closing thoughts, anything I missed that you'd like to cover that? I
didn't. Um
No, I just think uh I appreciate the uh appreciate the interview and I
really hope we can strive to get closer to a, to a sustainable food system.
But um I would say for me, it boils down to education and, and really
because we have to, we have to break some cycles. Um and the education is
not coming from home. It is, in some cases and in other cases it's just,
people are, are stuck in a cycle and don't have the freedom of choice
because they either don't have access, um, be it physically or monetarily
and they don't have the edu, if they don't have the education, they don't
have the choice because I don't think they believe that there's a choice,
you know, that they can eat nutritious food. Um, so, yeah, there's a lot
that needs to be done. But, and how would you start the role of change in
the education? Well, I, once again, I think I would put it, I would bring
it into, I would bring curriculum into elementary schools and start right
off the bat educating people about how important it is. Um, nutrition,
nutrition classes. But it would, but it would have to be expe expe
experiential and there's, there we go. It had to be, you have to be
experienced learning, you know, it had to be contextual. It would have to
, they would have to do, you know, there. So, get them, get them
physically cooking, get them planting seeds and looking, you know, work
that into other aspects of the curriculum. Um, so they're, you know,
they're aware of that at an early age, you know, that, that it's really
important that, that, um, you're able to cook for yourself, that you're
able to do these things and not get stuck in the rut. Of, you know, having
to eat fast food all the time. Do you think it's important this community
school gardens are, or school gardens are important? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I, I
think, uh, school gardens are, are very important. Um, you know, coming
from an aspect of elementary schools and high schools definitely. I think
once again, the more we can connect people to the food they eat the better.
I mean, we're just so disconnected right now and I see it all the time
when I go into schools and talk to people that there's a, there's a
complete disconnect and, and if you, that's just in food, but you
mentioned sustainability or, you know, thinking even beyond that about how
it's produced and this and that there's a, there's a absolute disconnect.
Um And so if the edu education, if it doesn't start with the education and
people aren't aware, you don't know what you don't know. You know. And uh
so without that, at least planting the seed, um so that they can think of
the food system in a different way and not just accept the, the status quo
as well. This is, this is what it is. This is, this is what I know, give
them, give them options at least, you know, I don't, I don't believe in
telling anyone how to eat or what they should eat. I really don't, but I
do believe in creating awareness and of what's out there and what our
current system is doing, the implications. Um And what different,
different avenues that they can go in and what they eat. So I will never
say don't eat this, this is evil, eat this, this is good. There are people
out there that will say that I'm not, I'm a little bit more middle ground.
But I think of, I think of creating awareness and being educating folks
of the different possibilities. Ultimately, it's your choice. It's your
body. What you put into it is your choice. You know, II I don't
necessarily believe in banning 32 ounce sodas. Um, but that's a whole
different avenue of food politics. So OK, thank you very much.