WEBVTT

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 Today is August 3rd 2015. My name is Christina V Maman interviewing for

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the Arizona State University Dinner
2040 project. Um Good morning. Could I

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ask you to say your name and your uh
place of birth? Absolutely. Uh My

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name is Michael Hodgins. I was born in
Manchester, Connecticut. So let's

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talk a little bit about um where you
grew up and about your. Ok. Well, I

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grew up in Saratoga Springs, New York
and uh my mom, Patricia and my dad,

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uh Richard Hodgins. Uh we grew up in a
horse racing town, um Saratoga

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Springs. So it was a, it was a fairly
small town at the base of the

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Adirondack mountains and the
population went from probably 15,000 people

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in the winter till maybe quadruple,
maybe five times the population uh in

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the summertime when it seemed like all
of New York City came up to the

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horse races. Um So it was what you
call probably a resort town, um which

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lend itself a lot to hospitality and,
and uh a lot of jobs for, for kids,

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teenagers, that kind of stuff in the
restaurant business. So, did you get

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an early start as a teenager in the
restaurant business. Yeah, I did. Yeah

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, I started at, uh, 15 years old. Uh,
it was my first job and it was one

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of those, um, one of my classmates
grabbed me and said, hey, you're

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looking for a job, right? Yeah, I am.
Brought me into a country club, talk

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to the chef. Uh, we back then you sat
out on the back dock behind the

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kitchen. You got one of those green
milk crates and you, you talked about

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it. He's like, when can you start
right now? Great. You're hired, you know

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, and, uh, so I, I started
dishwashing, um, which was a, you know, a good

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job for the time, I think, uh, $3.35
was the minimum wage. So I was making

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big bucks and I realized really
quickly, um, you know, the big thing that

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, that, that gave me was I realized
really quickly how much I hated to do

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dishes. I absolutely hated it. You
know, pot sinks piled up to the ceiling

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and, you know, you did everybody
else's work and, you know, when the

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servers are gone and the cooks are
gone, you're still emptying. All the

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garbage is mopping the floors and, and
so I worked with a bunch of other

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dishwashers and my mentor chef would
come around and we'd have really big

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parties for these seasonal events and
he'd come around and say, you know,

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I need 10 boxes or cases of shrimp
peeled and all the other dishwashers

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would hide and start scrubbing
something and, and I was like, you know,

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raise my hand and, you know, get me
out of here. I'll be happy. I don't

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care if it's 10 cases of shrimp. And
that's kind of what, um, propelled me

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into, um, my passion for cooking and
food is, is, is really just getting

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out of doing dishes.

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Can you tell me um who your mentor
chef was and why he was important in

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your kind of evolution? Yeah. Um uh
his name was Bob Ketcham and uh he was

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classically trained. I think he went
to Paul Smith's in upstate New York.

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And then he had worked around the
circuit in Boston and Rhode Island. So

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he's very familiar with seafood. And
um at the time everything was new to

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me. So, uh at working at the country
club, we had a rotating menu. We had

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dinners on Fridays and Saturday
nights. Uh and every week it was different.

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So it was quite an education uh for me
and actually also learning to um

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cook with seasonal foods. And uh I
didn't even know the term seasonal

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foods back then, but I knew that they
went crazy over hand melons, a farm

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in upstate New York that grew Melons.
And, and when the first time I heard

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we were gonna serve it as an appetizer
at dinner in a formal dining room,

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a melon with, you know, like a twist
of lime on it or something. No

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preparation. Uh, I thought it was kind
of crazy. But, um, when I tasted

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that melon for the first time I
realized, 00, my goodness. Um, kind of

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like Alice Waters, um, up in Berkeley
with her restaurants and she says

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she's more of a, uh, p procure of
foods than a chef. Uh, because if you

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procure great food and it's fresh and
it's, it's, you know, the best of

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what it is, you don't really need to
do much with it. Maybe a little sea

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salt, maybe a little squeeze of, you
know, citrus or acid or something. Um

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, so I learned a lot of stuff about
that and, and, and soft shell crabs we

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worked with, which are a seasonal
item. Um I knew we could only get them

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for a month. You know, I didn't know
why or how. I just knew that everyone

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went crazy for a month or fiddle
fiddlehead ferns. Uh, we could get up

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there, which is kind of unique to that
area in the northeast. Um So he, he

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really taught me a lot about the
business and I ended up working all

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through high school and all through my
four years of college. And how did

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you change your view of food through
this experience? Your first kind of

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job there? Well, you know, I kind of
grew up, as I would say, a somewhat

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picky eater. You know, and it really,
and my parents were, were both good

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cooks. Um, but this definitely
broadened me to a whole new world of food

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that I had never experienced before.
And, um, you know, if you can't taste

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what you're making in the kitchen, you
really shouldn't be serving. It's,

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uh, you know, it just required to
taste a lot of stuff and, and I realized

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how, how good things could be. And,
uh, I realized I really had a passion

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, uh for the business. Uh, and most
people in the restaurant business will

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tell you if you don't have a passion,
you're, you're probably crazy to

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stay in the business or you're a
little bit of both passionate and crazy,

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which might be closer to me. So, let's
talk about, um, you said you worked

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at this, um, establishment during
college? So did your, did your life

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change? Did you take a different
interest in food and how to prep the

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preparation and everything or? Well,
I, I went to college, uh, at, um, the

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University at Albany, Suny, uh State
University in New York at Albany and

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actually got my bachelor's degree in
history, um, with a minor in

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anthropology.

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But I continued to work, you know, and
even through those four years I

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really knew, I think by junior year
that I really wanted to, to stay in,

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in the food business. Um, and I had a
talk from my mom who sat me down

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even at 21 years old or whatever
saying you have three years under your

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belt. You don't know how hard it may
be to go back to school. Please

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promise me, you'll finish this last
year. So, um, I listened to my mother

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, which I didn't always do growing up,
but I listened to her there and,

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and I appreciate it now, um, and I
knew my junior year I was probably

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gonna move out to, uh, Scottsdale to
go to Scottsdale Culinary Institute,

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um, which is now Lake Cordon Bleu. And
so I finished the last year. And,

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uh, that's kind of what, what took me
out west. So why was it important

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for your, um, for you that your mom
told you, you had to finish? Why was

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that important to her? And for you?
Well, I think it's certainly opened

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doors in my career, um, that I
wouldn't have had otherwise as far as

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working at an educational institution
as I do now. Um, and she just knew

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which I know now and wouldn't have
known then that you get busy, you know

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, families come up. You know, I have a
10 year old son, Justin and a eight

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year old daughter, Gabriella. And so
many things come up in life that it's

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so easy to just say it's not possible
to, to go back and get, and get your

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bachelor's degree. It could be, could
be daunting to have to do that. So,

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Um, I'm really glad that I did it. And
how, uh, graduation day, how

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excited were your parents and
yourself, that you had completed your degree

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? And can you? Oh, yeah, I mean, you
know, very ecstatic, I guess. Um, you

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know, she was definitely relieved
because she thought for a minute I was

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just gonna pack up the car and drive
out west. Um, and, you know, I was, I

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was happy, happy as well. And why did
you choose Scottsdale? What was

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appealing for you to go to the school?
The culinary school there, the, the

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appeal uh I think it was dual fold
one. I had a little bit of family out

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here. Uh my grandparents, um June and
Albert lived out in Sun City and I

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also had an uncle uh Bill and an Aunt
Beth that lived in Paradise Valley

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at the time. So it, it was moving
cross country at a young age. But uh

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there was some, some family also had a
good reputation as a school and it

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had an intensive uh a tense intensive
associates degree at the time. And I

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had just come off for four years of
college and wasn't looking to get into

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a and ironically, I grew up about an
hour and a half, two hours north or

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excuse me. Yeah, north of uh Hyde Park
where the Culinary Institute of

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America is one of the most famous
culinary schools in the country. But

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that was a that was a 2, 2.5 year
program. It was very expensive. Um, so

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it just made sense. Uh, and to be
honest with you, I took a trip out to

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visit the school and my aunt was a,
teaching some law classes here at a su

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and she took me around the campus and,
you know, it was the middle of

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February. I barely got off the ground
in New York with the snow on the

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wings and I walked around and there's
people out here in bathing suits and

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shorts and, you know, playing soccer
and volleyball. And that was that,

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you know, I think that helps. So, tell
me a little bit about your

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experience of the, in the Scottsdale
culinary school. What that was like

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for you, kind of the different, you
know, that was, uh, it was a great

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experience because I had worked in the
business at that point for about

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six years. Um, however, I knew the,
how I knew how to make a hollandaise

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sauce. I knew how to make, you know, I
knew how to do a lot of things at

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that point, but I didn't know why, you
know, I didn't know why a

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hollandaise or a caesar dressing
doesn't why it holds together. I didn't

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know you need protein, you need acid.
I knew you had to put lemon and you

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had to put egg yolks in there and you
had to slowly drizzle your fat to

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emulsify, but I didn't know the why
behind a lot of that stuff. Um, a lot

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of stuff in the baking and that kind
of stuff, which is a little bit more

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of an exact science. Um, I kind of
learned the whys and the hows. Um, so,

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I mean, my experience level gave me, I
think I might have learned more

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because I wasn't a deer in the
headlights coming into it. Um, but they

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taught me a lot of good things and I'm
really glad, you know, can you

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become a great chef without culinary
school? You know, it's possible by

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putting in a lot of years. Um, but the
combination of the experience and

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the school I think is the best of both
worlds. What do you think was the,

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um, the most memorable moment of your
time in the school? Most memorable

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moment? I think, uh, I, I think we had
a catering class where we would do

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grand buffet. Uh, and the whole school
ate the grand buffet, well, ate the

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buffet every day. Um, so the night
school people would come in early and

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the guy, the people going in during
the day would come in, it would be

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right after their classes and everyone
would get together for a huge like

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community meal every day, which was
pretty cool. And, uh, for our grand

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buff every three or four weeks, the
class would do a grand buffet and we

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did, uh, I think a New Orleans theme
and we had, you know, craw Dads and

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Mardi Gras music going on and, you
know, all this stuff and it was just,

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uh, it was pretty awesome to have all
the whole school basically looking

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at you like, wow, this is, this is
good stuff and, and, and it brings, you

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know, it brings everyone together, you
know, so it's kind of a community,

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community focused time. Yeah. And how
was culinary school different from

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getting your college degree? Uh When
I, when I finished culinary school,

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uh it was good, you know, um it was
kind of, I was happy to be done and I

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was ready to just get, you know, cause
when I got my four year degree, I,

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I didn't work quite as much but I
worked through throughout a lot of it

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during culinary school, I worked 40
hours a week. So um I was kind of

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happy not gonna lie. I was kind of
happy that it was done because I was

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working 40 hours a week and going
eight hours a day, five days a week to,

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to school. Um But then, you know, the
coming off of getting a Bachelor's

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degree and writing 20 page research
papers versus the, the work level

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associated with the associate of the
culinary degree was seemed a little

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easier for me. So did you know that
this was the right direction when you

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chose? I, I did and, and going back to
my mom, I think she was a little

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bit nervous, you know, I think she was
thinking, well, do you really want

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to do this or is this just a passing
phase? You know where? Yeah, you're

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really into culinary and then 23 years
later you're gonna want to do

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something else. But I graduated
culinary school in 95. So I think we're 20

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years in, I don't think it was a
passing phase.

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So let's talk a little bit about um
how you became interested in

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sustainable um agriculture and ok. Um
I would say my main interest came

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from working from a company called Bon
Appetit uh uh management s

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management company, Bamco. And uh
their whole tagline, their culture was

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really, I mean, they walked the walk
about sustainable food service, which

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was great. Um So I would say they got
me into it. But before that, I was

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working up in the East uh East Bay.
And uh I lived in San Leandro. I was

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working in Oakland and my wife and I
would take the B A RT um train into

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the city. The first time we showed up
at the ferry ferry building, farmers

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market on pier one. We were just
absolutely blown away, blown away. Uh

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probably 200 farms there. Uh It, it
wrapped from in front of this ferry

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building around the backside. And then
as far as you could go before

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people, you know, they were right on
the edge of the bay, on the water.

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Like you push back a booth, they would
be swimming and, I mean, it had

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fresh shocked oysters. It had, um, if,
when it was, um, peach season or

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plum season, they would have every
single farm would have little wedges

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sampled up at their table. So we made
a huge mistake the first, uh, the

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first time. Right, because we bought
stuff from like the vendors in front.

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We didn't even know there was the back
or the side and they were good. It

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wasn't nothing wrong with it. But
every time we would have another peach

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or another. Wow, this is even better.
Same thing with tomatoes. I mean,

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they would have them sliced up and we,
we thought we had the best tomatoes

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we ever tasted. So we got around the
back. And so then we realized really

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quickly that OK, we need to do a loop
around here. But um so tasting that

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really, you know, really local, really
fresh food, really kind of um

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stimulated it and then fast forward uh
a year or so, we end up moving back

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to the valley here um to work where I
was the executive chef at Intel uh

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for the Bon Bon Appetit Management
Company. And uh when I walked into that

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position, so I knew their culture, but
they didn't have a very big

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infrastructure in Arizona at the time,
only a couple of small accounts. So

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they said we want you ordering from,
you know, local vendors, small

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farmers, you can do it. I was, you
know, I said, ok, so do you have any

00:14:56.979 --> 00:15:04.979
leads or numbers or? Well, no, not
really. So, um that was in 2005.

00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:10.287
Uh So that's kind of when I set out
to, you know, I said, well, ok, I met

00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:15.476
Pam Pamela Hamilton from Edible
Phoenix who was a good resource, but I

00:15:15.509 --> 00:15:20.787
really just started going to farmers
markets and talking to vendors and

00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:25.417
saying, here's what we're doing. And
luckily at that, uh we had seven

00:15:25.450 --> 00:15:30.996
cafes on two campuses there. So we had
the ability to really buy some

00:15:31.029 --> 00:15:36.986
volume. Uh w which was good, good and
bad. It was, it was great um for the

00:15:37.019 --> 00:15:41.005
farmers, but a lot of them couldn't
keep up with the supply of the stuff

00:15:41.038 --> 00:15:44.895
we needed. We ended up working out a
deal with Cricket Sky Farms at the

00:15:44.928 --> 00:15:50.015
time to do a restaurant style CS a uh
community supported agriculture

00:15:50.048 --> 00:15:53.706
where you would pay for a share, a
weekly share or you pay upfront for a

00:15:53.739 --> 00:15:57.657
quarter and then they'd bring you
weekly shares. Um And we did that

00:15:57.690 --> 00:16:02.875
restaurant style which, you know, has
its ups and its downs, but it was

00:16:02.908 --> 00:16:05.986
great because we were able to change
our menu weekly as to what specials

00:16:06.019 --> 00:16:10.792
we did. So we would get a bag in and
near, you know, several bags, you

00:16:10.825 --> 00:16:14.150
know, probably a couple of $100 for
each kitchen worth of produce. And we

00:16:14.183 --> 00:16:18.020
would write our menus based on what we
were getting in. So let's talk

00:16:18.053 --> 00:16:22.871
about when you first started in 2005
and kind of there being no

00:16:22.904 --> 00:16:26.831
infrastructure. How did you sell this
or how did you convince local

00:16:26.864 --> 00:16:30.150
farmers that, you know, and just how
did you build the infrastructure?

00:16:30.183 --> 00:16:34.451
Yeah. So some of them I couldn't, uh
some of them, you know, said I've

00:16:34.484 --> 00:16:37.380
sold to restaurants in the past and
you chefs are a pain in the, you know

00:16:37.413 --> 00:16:43.667
, we'll keep it PG um But um some of
them were interested in it. Some of

00:16:43.700 --> 00:16:47.946
them I had to make a lot of
concessions that I might not have made through

00:16:47.979 --> 00:16:52.645
a more established produce company. Um
There was a lot of late minute uh

00:16:52.678 --> 00:16:57.586
you know, cancellations or calls that,
hey, I know you needed those £40 of

00:16:57.619 --> 00:17:03.836
this, but we only have 20. Um So I
would say, you know, going to farmers

00:17:03.869 --> 00:17:08.795
markets, talking to the farmers, going
out to see their farms. Um you know

00:17:08.828 --> 00:17:13.446
, uh having conversations with them,
you know, like, hey, I understand, I

00:17:13.479 --> 00:17:17.347
, I it's basically trying to get the
chef and the farmer together because

00:17:17.380 --> 00:17:21.325
we all, we both have our issues, you
know, uh for farmers, a lot of its

00:17:21.358 --> 00:17:25.384
distribution is a big issue for them
and they have the product, but they

00:17:25.417 --> 00:17:28.524
don't have the means to get it out.
And we're talking about very

00:17:28.557 --> 00:17:32.206
perishable stuff, you know, so it
needs to move and, and if they have a

00:17:32.239 --> 00:17:37.794
bumper crop, they need to move it or
it's going to be plowed under. Um, so

00:17:37.827 --> 00:17:42.716
I tried to work with them from a
distribution standpoint and be flexible

00:17:42.749 --> 00:17:47.406
as I could. Um, and, you know, they
also had to know they couldn't come in

00:17:47.439 --> 00:17:52.276
at noon with an order when the
kitchen's crazy and everyone's trying to

00:17:52.309 --> 00:17:55.236
keep up with the lunch rush and
they're standing back there. Hey, you guys

00:17:55.269 --> 00:17:59.416
gonna check in my order or what, you
know, um, something else. I worked

00:17:59.449 --> 00:18:04.696
out with a few farmers, uh Maya from
Maya's Farm at one point. Uh Michael

00:18:04.729 --> 00:18:09.617
Thompson from Love Grows Farm, which
is actually no longer in existence.

00:18:09.650 --> 00:18:13.926
But uh we worked it out where they
would deliver food and then they would

00:18:13.959 --> 00:18:19.285
take my, our compost, uh food scraps
back with them. So it was just one

00:18:19.318 --> 00:18:22.506
trip. They would drop off the food, we
would throw the, they would take

00:18:22.539 --> 00:18:27.406
our compost and uh it worked out real
worked out real good. Tell me why

00:18:27.439 --> 00:18:32.627
farmer, farmers' markets are so
important to the community. Well, farmers

00:18:32.660 --> 00:18:35.906
markets are, are real important to the
community because they connect the

00:18:35.939 --> 00:18:40.137
farms and the farmers uh to the
people. You know, you have, you can put a

00:18:40.170 --> 00:18:47.456
face to the food you're eating. And,
um,

00:18:47.489 --> 00:18:51.075
you know, I think that's, that's
important because it, it's, it's

00:18:51.108 --> 00:18:54.867
something that's been lost over time
and we're getting, you know, society

00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:59.607
is getting more and more and more
disconnected from their food source. You

00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.706
know, I go in and talk to elementary
school kids and, you know, I think

00:19:03.739 --> 00:19:07.565
some of them think a chicken nugget
comes from a mama, chicken nugget. You

00:19:07.598 --> 00:19:11.887
know, I mean, they, they don't even
put it together with the, the, it's

00:19:11.920 --> 00:19:15.877
this, you know, animal running around,
it has feathers on it. That's not a

00:19:15.910 --> 00:19:20.266
, no, it's, you know, the, there,
there's a real disconnect and I, I think

00:19:20.299 --> 00:19:25.825
education is so important. I mean, I
would love to see curriculum in

00:19:25.858 --> 00:19:29.555
elementary schools right up through
high school of, you know, imple

00:19:29.588 --> 00:19:36.186
implementing gardening, cooking. Um,
you know, especially cooking because

00:19:36.219 --> 00:19:39.045
a lot of people just don't know what,
you know, you can go to a farmer's

00:19:39.078 --> 00:19:43.887
market, that's all well and good. And,
you know, they may be having huge

00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:48.545
amounts of kale or Swiss chard or
different greens, you know, but if you,

00:19:48.578 --> 00:19:52.107
you're not gonna buy it, if you look
at it and say I have no idea what to

00:19:52.140 --> 00:19:56.325
do with that. Right. So, I mean, I
think the education on, on basic

00:19:56.358 --> 00:20:01.756
cooking, essentials, um, gardening,
con connecting them with food. I mean

00:20:01.789 --> 00:20:07.406
, the gardening part and the, and the,
even the ranching or, or, um,

00:20:07.439 --> 00:20:10.565
raising chickens or something, you
know, for eggs, something simple like

00:20:10.598 --> 00:20:15.666
that, for people to see what actually
goes in to that, you know, and the

00:20:15.699 --> 00:20:20.717
time, you know, when you plant a seed
and you finally get something 90

00:20:20.750 --> 00:20:26.085
days, 100 and 24 months later and all
the tending and the watering and

00:20:26.118 --> 00:20:32.976
that went into that, it's, uh, it,
there's a whole new appreciation uh for

00:20:33.009 --> 00:20:37.516
the value of food. So you mentioned
the curriculum um, in going into

00:20:37.549 --> 00:20:43.217
schools. Why is that important to kind
of, um, engage the younger, the

00:20:43.250 --> 00:20:46.815
younger generation to for the
gardening and the cooking? Why is that

00:20:46.848 --> 00:20:50.565
important? I think it's important
because it, it really can, it can, once

00:20:50.598 --> 00:20:56.217
again, it connects them to what food
is and the different varieties of

00:20:56.250 --> 00:21:02.585
food and the diversity of food that's
out there. Um The diversity is, is

00:21:02.618 --> 00:21:07.226
being lost. Um We're not preserving
local, local stuff. We're not

00:21:07.259 --> 00:21:13.276
preserving heirloom varieties of
stuff. Um, a cucumber comes in many, many

00:21:13.309 --> 00:21:16.916
different forms and shapes. You know,
the Armenian cucumber grows great

00:21:16.949 --> 00:21:22.575
out here and it's a giant, you know,
cucumber, but most people, if they

00:21:22.608 --> 00:21:27.137
even know what a cucumber looks like,
whole kids, it's just the waxy,

00:21:27.170 --> 00:21:32.986
regular um genetically modified or
hybrid to, to be that, you know, so

00:21:33.019 --> 00:21:36.897
that because food is grown right now,
basically, so it can ship. I mean,

00:21:36.930 --> 00:21:40.795
that's the, that's the genetic traits
that most companies want, right?

00:21:40.828 --> 00:21:43.897
They want to grow it so that it holds
up well. So you can ship it and it

00:21:43.930 --> 00:21:47.186
can three weeks later, two weeks later
you can put it in your fridge and

00:21:47.219 --> 00:21:51.117
it's still, it's still good but you're
losing flavor. You're losing all

00:21:51.150 --> 00:21:55.795
kinds of diversity. And I think, uh,
you know, if I go in and hold up a

00:21:55.828 --> 00:22:00.986
beat, um, or a fig in, in a classroom
of elementary school because there

00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:05.805
might be one or two kids out of 30
that know what they are. And that's,

00:22:05.838 --> 00:22:10.585
that's kind of scary to me. So, I, I
think just even introducing whether

00:22:10.618 --> 00:22:13.565
they're gonna like him or not at that
time, you know, I know myself, I

00:22:13.598 --> 00:22:17.456
didn't like, I wouldn't need to beat
at eight years old. I probably had to

00:22:17.489 --> 00:22:21.117
try it. I think that was part of the
part of the thing, but I, I can

00:22:21.150 --> 00:22:25.016
understand and stronger flavors and
they, you develop taste as you get

00:22:25.049 --> 00:22:29.305
older. But I think just planting the
seed uh no pun intended of, of

00:22:29.338 --> 00:22:32.877
showing them this kind of stuff and
showing them gardening and what it,

00:22:32.910 --> 00:22:37.147
what it actually means. And it's a
life skill too, you know, it's, it's a

00:22:37.180 --> 00:22:42.137
life skill. Um because food is
obviously one of the things that we, we

00:22:42.170 --> 00:22:47.815
need. So you mentioned um the
community when they sit down at the dinner

00:22:47.848 --> 00:22:50.706
and that's important. Can you talk a
little bit about, about that

00:22:50.739 --> 00:22:53.617
community that comes together when
they sit around the table? Because I've

00:22:53.650 --> 00:22:57.186
heard that thing throughout the
interviews that I've done. Yeah, I think

00:22:57.219 --> 00:23:03.035
uh food, I mean, the bottom line is
food brings people together and it

00:23:03.068 --> 00:23:07.347
brings, uh, you know, if you have
people over your house and you

00:23:07.380 --> 00:23:12.676
entertained, food is always a central,
is a central theme. Um, I like the

00:23:12.709 --> 00:23:19.256
fact that in Europe and, and other
countries, food is considered the plan

00:23:19.289 --> 00:23:23.717
for the evening. Right. So the meal is
the plan. Whereas here it's like,

00:23:23.750 --> 00:23:27.377
ok, what are we gonna grab before we
go out to the movies or to the, you

00:23:27.410 --> 00:23:31.055
know, in Europe it's more like we're
gonna have a three hour dinner and

00:23:31.088 --> 00:23:34.496
you know, that not gonna eat any more
food. Really. It's just gonna be

00:23:34.529 --> 00:23:37.335
paced out and we're gonna have fun
and, and talk and enjoy each other's

00:23:37.368 --> 00:23:42.117
company. Um, and I, I think it's just
a common bond that, that, that

00:23:42.150 --> 00:23:47.107
connects a lot of us and it's a great
time to really just breathe and, and

00:23:47.140 --> 00:23:52.226
, and talk and I don't think, you
know, we do enough talking, uh, you know

00:23:52.259 --> 00:23:58.246
, seems like more, um, of a, you know,
you drive into your garage, you

00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:01.637
close your garage, you walk into the
house, you get in your car, you open

00:24:01.670 --> 00:24:06.555
your garage, you go back to work and,
um, it's not like, you know, so I'm

00:24:06.588 --> 00:24:10.315
sounding old or dating myself right
now, but I mean, it's not like, uh,

00:24:10.348 --> 00:24:14.035
when we grew up, all the neighbors
were out on the, in the front porches,

00:24:14.068 --> 00:24:17.026
the front yards and, you know, it
seemed like there was a much more

00:24:17.059 --> 00:24:21.996
connected interaction now and I think
when you can sit people down, um,

00:24:22.029 --> 00:24:26.676
around a table to eat good wholesome
food that they're just kind of a,

00:24:26.709 --> 00:24:32.887
just a band. Ok. So I'm gonna go back
to talk about, uh, when you first

00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:38.416
arrived in 2005 and you said there was
no, there was no connection to, um

00:24:38.449 --> 00:24:43.555
, local farmers and they were not, um,
supporting what was grown here

00:24:43.588 --> 00:24:46.967
locally. How did that movement change
or how did you help that movement

00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:54.766
change? Well, I think, um, it, it was
unique for what we were doing with

00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:58.847
the type of company I was working for
working as a corporate dining uh

00:24:58.880 --> 00:25:02.956
facility. There wasn't, there was
people obviously in that movement

00:25:02.989 --> 00:25:07.006
supporting local farmers, but they
were mainly mom and pop type

00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.676
restaurants. Um, and it's a challenge
for a lot of operations that don't

00:25:11.709 --> 00:25:14.897
charge the price points of a more, you
know, for a more fine dining

00:25:14.930 --> 00:25:19.607
restaurant. You know, I can get uh $15
for a nice beet and goat cheese

00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:23.075
salad. Whereas if I'm working at a
corporate dining facility serving lunch

00:25:23.108 --> 00:25:28.097
, you know, uh my price point is gonna
be a lot lower. So it, it becomes a

00:25:28.130 --> 00:25:35.045
challenge. Um, but I think just the
fact that we started doing that and we

00:25:35.078 --> 00:25:39.897
started educating our consumers. Um,
and that's a hu I, that's a huge part

00:25:39.930 --> 00:25:44.835
of it. Um, because you could be
serving great local beats. And your

00:25:44.868 --> 00:25:49.107
customers might realize the fact that
they're great tasting. But I think

00:25:49.140 --> 00:25:52.776
it's important that, that you market
and let people know what you're

00:25:52.809 --> 00:25:56.627
serving because that gets them
thinking. Oh, wow, we can get this, you

00:25:56.660 --> 00:26:00.117
know, a lot of people wouldn't even
consider the fact that that could have

00:26:00.150 --> 00:26:03.156
even been grown in Arizona. I know I
couldn't, I didn't when I moved out

00:26:03.189 --> 00:26:06.897
here. Um, I mean, I, when I, when my
company asked me to start making

00:26:06.930 --> 00:26:11.847
connections, I was looking around at
the, the Swar cactuses and going all

00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:16.196
right, I don't see anything growing
out here, but Yuma, Yuma is the food

00:26:16.229 --> 00:26:21.555
hub for the, the winter for the United
States as far as lettuces and, and

00:26:21.588 --> 00:26:27.406
produce. Um So as soon as northern
California shuts off in the winter time

00:26:27.439 --> 00:26:31.107
, Yuma picks it up. So we do grow, you
know, that's three hours away from

00:26:31.140 --> 00:26:34.676
here, but we grow a lot of food in the
state of Arizona. And then there's

00:26:34.709 --> 00:26:40.805
a lot of, I would say the number of
local farms since we first started has

00:26:40.838 --> 00:26:45.217
probably quadrupled. So there's a lot
more people doing it. But I i it's a

00:26:45.250 --> 00:26:49.107
hard business. It really is and you
don't benefit obviously from economies

00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:54.127
of scale. Uh like the big monoculture
farms do. So there is, there's

00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:58.127
barriers as far as price being
probably one of the, one of the biggest

00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:03.815
barriers. Um and the education going
back to the education of people to

00:27:03.848 --> 00:27:09.016
realize, you know, this is worth this.
You know, that's, that, that's the

00:27:09.049 --> 00:27:13.607
hard part when we live in a dollar
menu society. Um, when the federal

00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:20.035
government is subsidizing uh
monoculture, large conglomerates and corn and

00:27:20.068 --> 00:27:25.696
wheat production and all of this, it's
because you can't make a chicken

00:27:25.729 --> 00:27:29.236
sandwich for a dollar. You just cannot
make a chicken sandwich and not go

00:27:29.269 --> 00:27:34.607
out of business. So you either have to
be using not chicken, a lot of

00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.597
products that are subsidized like
corn. So you have corn syrup in there

00:27:38.630 --> 00:27:42.825
and you got, you got all kinds of
layers of, of filler and then the bun is

00:27:42.858 --> 00:27:49.305
made with, you know, corn syrup and
subsidized wheat. And, but so the

00:27:49.338 --> 00:27:54.746
value I think people, um it has to
become a priority and right now, I

00:27:54.779 --> 00:27:58.647
don't think it is for the majority of
people and I can understand that. Um

00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:03.597
, because, you know, some people just,
if you're choosing between filling

00:28:03.630 --> 00:28:07.926
your kids bellies with calories and
being able to get out and get

00:28:07.959 --> 00:28:14.026
nutritious food, it's a, it's a
struggle. So I hear you talk a lot about

00:28:14.059 --> 00:28:22.059
business in the background. Um, has
that become a major kind of um player

00:28:22.848 --> 00:28:27.676
in your, in your role your role at
Intel did with the, with the business

00:28:27.709 --> 00:28:31.805
skills kind of, did you need to
acquire quick, quickly the business set?

00:28:31.838 --> 00:28:34.597
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Can you,
can you talk about that because

00:28:34.630 --> 00:28:37.736
usually when you think of chef you
think of just food and just creative.

00:28:37.769 --> 00:28:40.166
Yeah, creative. And you get to taste
but they don't talk about the

00:28:40.199 --> 00:28:45.897
business skills and I, I hear that
coming up. Oh, yeah. I mean, at the, at

00:28:45.930 --> 00:28:51.117
the end of the day a business has to,
at the very least break even, you

00:28:51.150 --> 00:28:54.967
know, if you're, if you're losing
money you're not going to be, uh, a

00:28:55.000 --> 00:29:00.926
business very long. So, um especially
with the bigger the operation. Um I

00:29:00.959 --> 00:29:04.706
, you know, as executive chef of a
place with seven different outlets, I

00:29:04.739 --> 00:29:09.805
didn't do a lot of hands on cooking. I
mean, I, I did, but my role was

00:29:09.838 --> 00:29:14.976
more of an a like an executive type
role where, um, you know, making sure

00:29:15.009 --> 00:29:18.766
that our, our labor costs were in line
that our food purchasing costs were

00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:22.867
in line. Um And that's hard when
you're getting a, you know, weekly

00:29:22.900 --> 00:29:27.347
conference call telling you, you know,
you, you three point percentage

00:29:27.380 --> 00:29:33.026
points high on your food cost, but yet
you want me to buy food that's cost

00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:38.847
more, you know, a a and it's long,
it's uh short term costs, you know, are

00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:43.506
more the long, I mean, the long term
costs are, are much better for our

00:29:43.539 --> 00:29:47.756
environment better for people's
nutrition. So, um there's a big difference

00:29:47.789 --> 00:29:50.825
between the short term and the long
term costs. But when you're on a day,

00:29:50.858 --> 00:29:54.347
a weekly conference call, it's short
term costs that they're talking about.

00:29:54.380 --> 00:29:59.387
Um But yet I felt fortunate to work
for a company that, that did care

00:29:59.420 --> 00:30:04.976
that much about um serving food. We
had a, we had to eat local challenge

00:30:05.009 --> 00:30:08.847
every year there where we would serve,
try to make the whole entire cafe

00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.585
from within 100 and 50 miles. All the
products in there. We had a low

00:30:12.618 --> 00:30:19.607
carbon uh low carbon diet day. So uh
serving low carbon footprint stuff.

00:30:19.640 --> 00:30:24.887
So we pulled our burgers from the
grill that day. We, we did some stuff.

00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:30.045
The only thing that I got the 911 call
from was in California. Uh because

00:30:30.078 --> 00:30:34.397
we, our company was doing the in
several intel properties in California.

00:30:34.430 --> 00:30:38.666
One of the properties pulled the cream
for the coffee uh because because

00:30:38.699 --> 00:30:43.597
beef cattle is highly, highly has a
high carbon footprint, right? So they

00:30:43.630 --> 00:30:46.795
pull the cream for the coffee and you
do not mess with people's coffee

00:30:46.828 --> 00:30:52.506
that that was the uh get the phone
call. You guys serving cream. Yeah. OK.

00:30:52.539 --> 00:30:56.406
Good. Do not pull the cream. They're
about to riot for their morning

00:30:56.439 --> 00:30:59.717
coffee, which I don't blame them, but
we got to do a lot of really good

00:30:59.750 --> 00:31:04.795
stuff. And I, I really um was educated
quite a bit into what

00:31:04.828 --> 00:31:11.065
sustainability in the food system uh
means from a multifaceted perspective.

00:31:11.098 --> 00:31:15.186
I mean, from where you're sourcing it
from, you know how you're preparing

00:31:15.219 --> 00:31:19.387
it and how, how are you disposing it.
So um are we completing the whole

00:31:19.420 --> 00:31:23.575
circle of food? Yeah. So let's ask
you, since you brought that up, how

00:31:23.608 --> 00:31:28.206
would you define food sustainability?
I think sustainability in general,

00:31:28.239 --> 00:31:34.006
food sustainability is just allowing
future generations um to grow and eat

00:31:34.039 --> 00:31:38.305
and provide for themselves wholesome
food. Like our, you know, with our

00:31:38.338 --> 00:31:42.887
like our current generation can and
without jeopardizing them, you know,

00:31:42.920 --> 00:31:46.637
eating and providing people with food
without jeopardizing future

00:31:46.670 --> 00:31:50.607
generations from being able to do the
same for their families. Now you

00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:53.785
mentioned the full circle a little bit
about what that full circle is.

00:31:53.818 --> 00:31:57.156
Yeah. And that's something we teach um
at Rio. So Auto College in our, in

00:31:57.189 --> 00:32:01.377
our sustainability program is or in
our food sustainability program is,

00:32:01.410 --> 00:32:08.766
the full circle would be from planting
that seed or raising that animal to

00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:11.785
how to do that without hurting the
environment, how to do that organically

00:32:11.818 --> 00:32:19.818
, how to um add things to the soil,
natural things, um how to use um

00:32:21.489 --> 00:32:26.367
different kind of plantings, uh trap
crops. So I might plant mint next to

00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:30.416
my peppers because I want all the
insects to have a party on the mint and

00:32:30.449 --> 00:32:35.686
not to eat my peppers, you know, um
intercropping, which is the opposite

00:32:35.719 --> 00:32:41.266
of large monocultures. Um whereas
pests uh can't come in and get too

00:32:41.299 --> 00:32:45.565
comfortable because they don't have, I
mean, as uh our gardener, Josh puts

00:32:45.598 --> 00:32:50.585
it in Iowa, if you're, if you're a bug
that likes corn, you know, you're

00:32:50.618 --> 00:32:53.936
gonna signal for your whole family and
everybody to move in. Right? And

00:32:53.969 --> 00:32:56.956
you're never gonna leave because you
have an endless food source. And

00:32:56.989 --> 00:33:00.416
that's why the, they have to spray so
many pesticides on those big

00:33:00.449 --> 00:33:04.496
monoculture fields because there's no,
nothing to dissuade the insects

00:33:04.529 --> 00:33:08.887
from coming. They have endless, you
know. So, um we employ all kinds of

00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:14.726
different techniques um to grow
naturally like that. Um And then the

00:33:14.759 --> 00:33:19.107
students would uh harvest the food,
bring it into the kitchen, um show

00:33:19.140 --> 00:33:23.766
them different ways to prepare it. Um
Talk about, you know, healthy

00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:28.656
cooking techniques. Um And then what
happens with, you know, your

00:33:28.689 --> 00:33:33.137
trimmings or your coffee grounds or
your, your egg shells? Um What do we

00:33:33.170 --> 00:33:37.137
do with those and how we get them back
into the compost at our garden,

00:33:37.170 --> 00:33:42.107
which gets back into the, the uh bed.
We have, we get wood chips donated

00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:46.756
or even some of our on site
landscapers will, will chip trees up and

00:33:46.789 --> 00:33:49.397
they'll bring them to the garden. And
then that will just go in right with

00:33:49.430 --> 00:33:53.607
our food scraps to generate soil, to
grow healthy food again. And you're

00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:57.946
really looking at, you know, I
wouldn't say it's 100% 0 waste. I'm not

00:33:57.979 --> 00:34:01.815
sure we'll ever get there, but uh it's
very little waste because you're

00:34:01.848 --> 00:34:04.347
just completing that whole cycle and
you're going right back into growing

00:34:04.380 --> 00:34:10.217
more food. So let's talk a little bit
about uh real real Sola college.

00:34:10.250 --> 00:34:15.017
Sorry. Um How did you get involved
with this organization? Uh I got

00:34:15.050 --> 00:34:20.626
involved initially as an advisory
board member for the program, the

00:34:20.659 --> 00:34:26.905
Sustainable Foods Program that was
newly um a new program that they formed

00:34:26.938 --> 00:34:30.894
a bunch of community members that were
uh actively working in the

00:34:30.927 --> 00:34:35.845
community with sustainable foods. Um
And I, I had hoped to teach for the,

00:34:35.878 --> 00:34:41.075
for them as a, as an adjunct um
teacher and continued to do what I was

00:34:41.108 --> 00:34:45.945
doing and one thing led to another and
I actually ended up starting the,

00:34:45.978 --> 00:34:52.095
the program uh with a blank slate
basically um to, to kind of a dual role

00:34:52.128 --> 00:34:58.385
um to oversee the cafe, kind of a
general management type of oversight of

00:34:58.418 --> 00:35:03.787
the cafe uh and the catering programs.
And then also make sure that all

00:35:03.820 --> 00:35:09.736
our we're in, we're primarily an on
online school. However, are we have a

00:35:09.769 --> 00:35:13.635
, a culinary uh cooking class? We have
a baking class, the gardening class

00:35:13.668 --> 00:35:17.557
, which all are what we consider
hybrids. So the students take their

00:35:17.590 --> 00:35:22.037
didactic portion of the course online
and then they come in and do their

00:35:22.070 --> 00:35:27.445
lab or clinical portion in the
kitchens or the or the garden. So tell me

00:35:27.478 --> 00:35:32.135
what your um your goals and your
mission are for um the School for the

00:35:32.168 --> 00:35:36.146
Culinary for the Sustainable Foods
Program. I, I'd say the goals and the

00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:41.376
mission are to create a sustainably

00:35:41.409 --> 00:35:46.467
minded workforce. Um You know, we're
an occupational program and we wanna

00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:50.327
, we wanna

00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:56.517
empower, uh, students to have that
knowledge to go out there and get into

00:35:56.550 --> 00:36:00.526
the industry and even if, you know, a
lot of them won't necessarily open

00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:04.706
their own restaurants or, or go
completely farm to table type of thing.

00:36:04.739 --> 00:36:08.276
But even, no matter where they go, we
want them to know that there are

00:36:08.309 --> 00:36:14.436
other options than, than just finding
one broad, uh, what we call a broad

00:36:14.469 --> 00:36:19.376
liner provider. Um that will give you
everything from bleach to ground

00:36:19.409 --> 00:36:24.236
beef, you know, and that's the easier
way. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm gonna be

00:36:24.269 --> 00:36:28.977
honest with you, that's the easier way
if you can do one order, boom, you

00:36:29.010 --> 00:36:32.706
know, from your bleach to your burger,
to your broom to your and then hit

00:36:32.739 --> 00:36:37.166
send and it all shows up on a giant,
you know, semi the next day and, and

00:36:37.199 --> 00:36:40.546
we still use broad liner companies,
you know, I mean, we need to get

00:36:40.579 --> 00:36:44.756
products from them and I'm not
completely anti that, but there's so many

00:36:44.789 --> 00:36:50.236
local farms here and places that pro
produce raised pork here, locally

00:36:50.269 --> 00:36:54.217
beef within the state, uh you know,
ground beef, that kind of stuff, many

00:36:54.250 --> 00:37:00.631
local farms uh throughout the area
that to integrate those. It is, it's

00:37:00.664 --> 00:37:05.231
very doable and, and it's not that
much harder and it never feels wrong,

00:37:05.264 --> 00:37:09.651
you know, it always feels like you're
doing the right thing and the taste

00:37:09.684 --> 00:37:13.311
is awesome. But the relationships too.
The relationships that you form

00:37:13.344 --> 00:37:17.182
with the, with these farmers and these
ranchers, you know, are, are pretty

00:37:17.215 --> 00:37:22.220
amazing. I think so. I guess the
mission is really to create a new, a new

00:37:22.253 --> 00:37:27.577
workforce and a new, um, a new way of
thinking amongst them. And even if

00:37:27.610 --> 00:37:30.037
they can't, you know, they're not
going to be able to change the world in

00:37:30.070 --> 00:37:34.126
a lot of their companies where they're
going to have kind of set specs of

00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:38.217
what they do. But even if they can
infuse, you know, this or hey, can we

00:37:38.250 --> 00:37:41.655
start working with this company a
little bit? I think it's for me,

00:37:41.688 --> 00:37:45.166
sustainability is not either here or
there, you know, one end of the

00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:48.345
spectrum or the other. It's not all or
nothing. I think you want to be

00:37:48.378 --> 00:37:53.796
moving at all times towards, you know,
becoming more sustainable. But I

00:37:53.829 --> 00:37:57.997
think if you look at it as an all or
nothing approach for me, I think

00:37:58.030 --> 00:38:01.256
people get defeated very easily and
think, well, we can't do it because

00:38:01.289 --> 00:38:07.006
this is too expensive. But what little
baby steps can you do to, to slowly

00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:11.506
increase the sustainability of your
restaurant or, or eating at home? You

00:38:11.539 --> 00:38:14.856
know, uh your home eating same, same
thing, you know, can you grow, can

00:38:14.889 --> 00:38:17.537
you plant something in your backyard?
Doesn't have to be a full production

00:38:17.570 --> 00:38:22.546
, you know, huge garden but, you know,
or some fruit trees or, you know,

00:38:22.579 --> 00:38:27.046
uh lettuce swiss, chard, that stuff
grows like amazingly here. You know,

00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:29.787
can you put in a, just a little bed in
one little area, a little raised

00:38:29.820 --> 00:38:33.405
bed or something? And every night you
have salad that you can go clip and

00:38:33.438 --> 00:38:39.106
, um, uh, for me, I have a garden in
my backyard and there's, there's

00:38:39.139 --> 00:38:43.557
nothing cooler than going out there
and grabbing, you know, whether it's

00:38:43.590 --> 00:38:48.017
dinner or whether it's a side to the
dinner. I mean, it's, it's beautiful.

00:38:48.050 --> 00:38:52.916
Tell me the difference between growing
it locally or having access to it

00:38:52.949 --> 00:38:57.206
locally, the local flavor versus
shipping it hundreds of miles away.

00:38:57.239 --> 00:39:00.405
What's the difference? Well, the d, I
mean, the difference is, it could be

00:39:00.438 --> 00:39:05.635
summed up in, you know, the word
fresh, I guess. But, um, nutrition is a

00:39:05.668 --> 00:39:12.166
huge part of it and food that's picked
food, uh, nutrients degrade rather

00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:16.706
quickly as soon as something's picked
and they just start going downhill.

00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:20.425
And if you can pick something, I mean,
in a perfect scenario, like I'm

00:39:20.458 --> 00:39:23.865
talking about going out in my backyard
and clipping arugula, like 15

00:39:23.898 --> 00:39:27.396
minutes before dinner. I mean, that is
packed, you're gonna have all the

00:39:27.429 --> 00:39:32.425
nn nutrients that thing can offer you.
Um, and when it's picked and

00:39:32.458 --> 00:39:37.425
shipped, you know, once again, it's
probably gonna be picked under ripe,

00:39:37.458 --> 00:39:40.827
depending on what it is. It's like
it's a tomato, it's gonna be picked

00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:45.405
green and it's gonna be shipped and
then gasped to turn. I won't even call

00:39:45.438 --> 00:39:48.066
it red. I refuse to call it red. I
think it's like a pink color they

00:39:48.099 --> 00:39:52.695
become in the supermarket. Um, but
they don't have flavor either. Um When

00:39:52.728 --> 00:39:57.675
you let something grow on a vine and
ripen right there, pick it and serve

00:39:57.708 --> 00:40:01.217
it, you're gonna develop all the
sugars, all, all the intricacies, the

00:40:01.250 --> 00:40:04.776
flavors are gonna be developed and
ready to eat when you ship something.

00:40:04.809 --> 00:40:08.865
Not only is it losing its n nutrient
value, but it's losing, it's losing

00:40:08.898 --> 00:40:13.747
flavor, not losing flavor, but it
never fully developed that flavor. So,

00:40:13.780 --> 00:40:19.276
tell me a little bit about um what is
the most satisfying aspect of um

00:40:19.309 --> 00:40:23.635
your work at Rio? So

00:40:23.668 --> 00:40:26.905
I just can't get that. I'm just gonna
give you a G in there. I don't care

00:40:26.938 --> 00:40:33.247
if you don't have one. You can go with
Rio. Let's go with Rio. I think the

00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:40.356
most satisfying thing is um you know,
working with the students. Um and,

00:40:40.389 --> 00:40:46.756
and the staff and the community
members that come in to the cafe area um

00:40:46.789 --> 00:40:51.345
to be able to once again show them
there's a different way than just a

00:40:51.378 --> 00:40:58.126
foil wrapped burger. Um uh And to
really show them AAA large variety of,

00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:02.537
of what we can do here with local
foods and what, what grows here. Uh We

00:41:02.570 --> 00:41:06.997
have an on site garden um that we also
harvest um quite a bit of what we

00:41:07.030 --> 00:41:12.247
use in the cafe. Um And to show them,
you know, people will come in and

00:41:12.280 --> 00:41:15.945
they'll say you didn't, that you
didn't grow that here. Yeah. You know,

00:41:15.978 --> 00:41:20.896
and our garden is open, you know, for
anyone to walk around anytime. Um

00:41:20.929 --> 00:41:24.967
But just, I think just to educate the
community is the most satisfying. Um

00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:28.247
And obviously the students, but
everyone that comes in there to just kind

00:41:28.280 --> 00:41:32.566
of talk and tell our story about, you
know, what we're trying to do and,

00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:36.977
and how it's possible to do that. Um
And do it in your own. I mean, a lot

00:41:37.010 --> 00:41:39.327
of people go back and they'll come in
and they're like, hey, I went to the

00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:43.896
farmer's market, you know, last week
or I planted this and, you know, and

00:41:43.929 --> 00:41:46.727
we'll, we'll tell people because
they'll go, they'll say, well, I can't

00:41:46.760 --> 00:41:50.675
grow anything, you know, I, I, and
trust me, I had a black thumb when,

00:41:50.708 --> 00:41:54.977
when I first started planting gardens
and it's just a little bit of know

00:41:55.010 --> 00:41:59.356
how, um and that's kind of what we
give them in our program, but we'll

00:41:59.389 --> 00:42:02.486
also do the same thing if someone just
comes in the cafe and they're,

00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:05.405
they're asking us questions, you know,
I'll take them out to the garden

00:42:05.438 --> 00:42:08.577
and I'll show them stuff. They'll talk
with Josh Sundberg, our, our

00:42:08.610 --> 00:42:14.807
gardener um about his philosophy of
growing things and how to do it

00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:18.497
because it's, it's very intimidating
when you come from the Midwest when

00:42:18.530 --> 00:42:22.217
you come from, uh even upstate New
York, I mean, it seemed like we could

00:42:22.250 --> 00:42:26.615
throw seeds in and it just, you know,
you get all the rain and things grow

00:42:26.648 --> 00:42:29.416
and it's intimidating to see this clay
soil that you can't even put a

00:42:29.449 --> 00:42:32.517
shovel through. You know, you're,
you're like, you're digging for gold

00:42:32.550 --> 00:42:35.807
with a pick just to, to get a little
dirt in, but you can grow a lot of

00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:39.405
stuff here. It just, it just, you need
the right, you know, amendments and

00:42:39.438 --> 00:42:44.296
you need to build the soil a little
bit. Um But compared to a lot of the

00:42:44.329 --> 00:42:47.767
country that's under snow for majority
of the year, we can, we can grow a

00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:50.896
lot of food here. Let's talk about the
gardening class that you have at

00:42:50.929 --> 00:42:56.296
Rio and how that started and why that
was important to, to the program.

00:42:56.329 --> 00:43:00.276
Sure. Um And that started as a
basically when we were putting together the

00:43:00.309 --> 00:43:05.006
curriculum for the Sustainable Foods
Program. Um And we thought it was

00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:10.095
important for once again, for if we
were gonna talk about this full circle

00:43:10.128 --> 00:43:16.477
um to show students, you know what it
took um to grow something and how

00:43:16.510 --> 00:43:19.845
important that is. And once again,
like I talked about earlier, the

00:43:19.878 --> 00:43:26.537
appreciation of what went into, you
know, if you're eating a burger or

00:43:26.570 --> 00:43:31.046
whatever you're eating, you know, that
I would say many of us including

00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:34.077
myself at many times would take that
slice of onion or that slice of

00:43:34.110 --> 00:43:38.816
tomato on that burger for granted. You
know, but when you actually get in

00:43:38.849 --> 00:43:42.747
there and you plan it and you see it
grow and everything that went into,

00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:45.497
you finally pick that beautiful
tomato. It's almost like you don't want to

00:43:45.530 --> 00:43:50.686
eat it, you know. Wow. But, but yet,
you know, I don't think there's an

00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:53.666
appreciation out there for what that
really takes and what the value of

00:43:53.699 --> 00:44:01.365
that should be. Um, it, it, it
doesn't, it's not gonna be, I mean, it, it

00:44:01.398 --> 00:44:05.836
takes time and money to grow something
that, that's that good and that

00:44:05.869 --> 00:44:09.356
flavorful. What is your students
reaction when they do the gardening class

00:44:09.389 --> 00:44:13.885
? And they start and how, how I, I'd
say it's one of the probably one of

00:44:13.918 --> 00:44:19.227
the favorite classes in the program.
Um, most of them really enjoy. Uh, I

00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:23.296
think there's something about, you
know, now if they were taking it in

00:44:23.329 --> 00:44:26.146
August or something, they might not
enjoy it quite as much, but we tend to

00:44:26.179 --> 00:44:30.876
run them in the later fall and earlier
spring. Um, I think it's something

00:44:30.909 --> 00:44:35.736
about being out in nature that, um,
lets people kind of breathe and

00:44:35.769 --> 00:44:40.767
working with your hands, um, to see
that. So it, it's definitely, it's a

00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.566
favorite class in many of the
students. So let's talk a little bit about,

00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:52.396
um, you said the full circle and the
compost bin. Um Are there things that

00:44:52.429 --> 00:44:56.517
you, why is that, why is that last
feature important? Because people

00:44:56.550 --> 00:45:00.396
mainly are talking about growing, but
they're not about the full circle.

00:45:00.429 --> 00:45:03.695
Why is that last component important
to the full circle? Right. Well, for

00:45:03.728 --> 00:45:08.396
a couple of reasons, one, if all those
food scraps are going in the land

00:45:08.429 --> 00:45:12.095
fill, they're gonna compost
anaerobically, they're gonna be buried in

00:45:12.128 --> 00:45:15.365
layers and layers of food. So they
will break down, but they're going to

00:45:15.398 --> 00:45:18.195
break down anaerobically, which means
they're gonna be emitting methane

00:45:18.228 --> 00:45:22.856
gasses, which, which we know is not
good for the environment. Um The other

00:45:22.889 --> 00:45:28.747
part of that is it's going to provide
a natural fertilizer for our garden

00:45:28.780 --> 00:45:32.195
to grow the next generation of things.
And if we don't have that, then

00:45:32.228 --> 00:45:35.477
we're going to have to bring in the
plants need to eat just like you and I

00:45:35.510 --> 00:45:40.526
do. So they need to have some kind
something, some kind of nutrition and

00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.436
they're not going to get it just if
you just keep growing food eventually

00:45:44.469 --> 00:45:48.017
, what's in the soil is going to be
depleted. So you need to add something

00:45:48.050 --> 00:45:51.827
back to it. So it's either gonna be
miracle grow or some kind of purchased

00:45:51.860 --> 00:45:58.155
fertilizer, which uh we don't think is
as good. You know, chemi, it's

00:45:58.188 --> 00:46:01.856
chemically derived, it takes a lot of
petroleum and, and other things to

00:46:01.889 --> 00:46:08.365
produce it. Um So we, we get, we get a
dual, dual uh benefit from it.

00:46:08.398 --> 00:46:13.436
We're not, we're not adding any extra
greenhouse gasses and we have a free

00:46:13.469 --> 00:46:18.807
supply of fertilizer basically. To
help our next generation of plants go

00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:24.977
and just continue around that circle.
OK. Can you tell me um why do you

00:46:25.010 --> 00:46:29.807
think it is? Why do you think food
sustainability is important? Just kind

00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:32.436
of the overall

00:46:32.469 --> 00:46:37.385
uh overall, I think it's important
just, just because uh kind of when I

00:46:37.418 --> 00:46:42.655
referred to my definition earlier
about the fact that, you know, I I want

00:46:42.688 --> 00:46:46.717
us all to be nourished well, but I
also don't want to jeopardize future

00:46:46.750 --> 00:46:49.856
generations from being able to nourish
them and my family, my grandkids,

00:46:49.889 --> 00:46:54.006
my grandkids kids, I want them to be
able to eat the same healthy foods uh

00:46:54.039 --> 00:46:59.517
that we're able to eat and, and not,
um you know, a lot of the practices

00:46:59.550 --> 00:47:04.977
now really do a lot to deplete the
earth. Um Yeah. Do you have any

00:47:05.010 --> 00:47:12.456
concerns over industry's power within
the food system itself? Uh Yes. Yeah

00:47:12.489 --> 00:47:18.416
, I think there's a, there's a lot of
uh not a lot, a few major

00:47:18.449 --> 00:47:23.175
conglomerates and, and big uh you
know, corporations that are more and

00:47:23.208 --> 00:47:28.595
more controlling the food system um
from seed to, to fertilizer, putting

00:47:28.628 --> 00:47:35.436
patents on stuff. Um you know,
terminator seeds, seeds that will grow for

00:47:35.469 --> 00:47:40.405
one generation and then you can't
harvest the seeds from the plants. Um

00:47:40.438 --> 00:47:45.506
and that stuff, you know, genetically
modified foods are obviously huge.

00:47:45.539 --> 00:47:51.885
Um Right now. Um And then a lot of it
is some of these, a lot of these

00:47:51.918 --> 00:47:57.287
seeds can blow from you know, a field
that is a patented field into a

00:47:57.320 --> 00:48:03.086
field that's not and basically show
the same characteristics. And next

00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:07.986
thing, you know, you have companies
coming after farmer b because farmers

00:48:08.019 --> 00:48:12.077
a, a cross pollinated his crops and
all of a sudden he can't save the

00:48:12.110 --> 00:48:15.925
seeds or he has a company coming to
him with a lawsuit saying you didn't

00:48:15.958 --> 00:48:20.997
pay for this technology. Um, it's
becoming very,

00:48:21.030 --> 00:48:25.675
very, uh, it's like, uh, something
about patenting food that just doesn't

00:48:25.708 --> 00:48:29.307
sit easy with me. Tell me, can you
explain to people that don't understand

00:48:29.340 --> 00:48:35.655
, what are the, um, what are the, what
is genetically modified food and

00:48:35.688 --> 00:48:39.385
why should people be aware that their
food is in that? Yeah. Well,

00:48:39.418 --> 00:48:45.316
genetically modified is taking genes
from, you know, 11,

00:48:45.349 --> 00:48:49.307
a foo, uh, food animal, whatever you
could take fish genes and put it in

00:48:49.340 --> 00:48:54.586
corn or it's, it's, you know, playing
a lot with our crops and, and we

00:48:54.619 --> 00:48:58.936
really don't know the long term
effects that will have on human health, I

00:48:58.969 --> 00:49:03.615
think is one of the scariest things
about it. And I, I think a lot of the

00:49:03.648 --> 00:49:07.686
people, even if they're against it,
they want to at least be able to be

00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:12.595
aware that their food. And, uh, you
know, food labeling is very, very big

00:49:12.628 --> 00:49:17.615
right now. There's a lot going on with
that in the government. And, um,

00:49:17.648 --> 00:49:22.126
yeah, I think it's the, just the fact
that we really don't know, and, um,

00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:27.336
I think it's being sold at a, sold to
the public as, you know, we'll never

00:49:27.369 --> 00:49:32.206
have enough food to feed the millions
or billions if we don't use

00:49:32.239 --> 00:49:37.845
genetically modified foods. Um, but
there's also a huge distribution

00:49:37.878 --> 00:49:41.217
problem in the country. There's a lot
of food waste, there's a lot of

00:49:41.250 --> 00:49:46.497
stuff that gets, you know, plowed
under. Um, there, you know, you look at

00:49:46.530 --> 00:49:49.595
most studies, there's enough food in
the world. It's just the distribution

00:49:49.628 --> 00:49:54.756
of it and, and the equity of
distribution of it too. Can you elaborate a

00:49:54.789 --> 00:49:58.106
little bit more about the food
distribution issue that there is and what

00:49:58.139 --> 00:50:04.376
that entails and what it's, you know,
it's getting, uh, I, I, it's getting

00:50:04.409 --> 00:50:09.175
food from point A to point B really. I
mean, in the simplest, the simplest

00:50:09.208 --> 00:50:14.175
terms, I mean, we have food coming in
from Mexico at the border that, you

00:50:14.208 --> 00:50:17.776
know, companies will go through it and
if it doesn't meet, you know, the

00:50:17.809 --> 00:50:20.997
grade A or grade B standards, if they
can sell it in the supermarket or

00:50:21.030 --> 00:50:24.695
the market or it's a, you know, has an
awful look or whatever, they'll,

00:50:24.728 --> 00:50:29.135
they'll rot in, in piles. I mean, and
this is wholesome food but it just

00:50:29.168 --> 00:50:33.236
doesn't meet the standards. Um,
there's some companies that actually go

00:50:33.269 --> 00:50:36.655
down there and get that food and do, I
think market on the move is one of

00:50:36.688 --> 00:50:41.006
them and some different companies that
try to get that food out there. But

00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:43.865
there's a lot of farmers that don't
have, you know, smaller farmers that

00:50:43.898 --> 00:50:51.086
don't have resources to get the food
out there. Um It's like I said, it so

00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:56.856
much food, food is so perishable that
it really, it really takes a, a very

00:50:56.889 --> 00:51:01.336
organized system to make sure it's
getting to the right people. Um And

00:51:01.369 --> 00:51:05.385
then the distribution and then the
retail, like the end user is a, is a

00:51:05.418 --> 00:51:09.876
big thing too because we have food
deserts out there and we have areas of

00:51:09.909 --> 00:51:13.077
where people don't have access to the
food. The food is there. It's being

00:51:13.110 --> 00:51:16.356
grown but it's not getting, you know,
there's either not stores in the

00:51:16.389 --> 00:51:22.236
area, people don't have
transportation, um, very low, very low income. So

00:51:22.269 --> 00:51:25.635
they're back to the, you know, the
dollar menu thing, you know. Do I want

00:51:25.668 --> 00:51:30.267
to get some calories in my, my kids
bellies or do I want to get on a bus

00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:34.227
and go around town looking for fresh
food? Um, so I think that's one of

00:51:34.260 --> 00:51:38.635
the things we need to work on in the
future definitely is access to, to

00:51:38.668 --> 00:51:46.668
fresh food and access to fresh food in
a manner where it's not price

00:51:46.918 --> 00:51:52.385
restrictive, you know, is a big thing
and it's, and it's more available as

00:51:52.418 --> 00:51:56.655
far as, you know, if, if I have one
farmer market in my area and it's on

00:51:56.688 --> 00:52:02.557
Saturday from seven to noon and I work
Saturday from seven to noon. I'm

00:52:02.590 --> 00:52:09.175
out of luck, you know. Um, so it's
access is, is, I think one of the

00:52:09.208 --> 00:52:14.497
biggest things as far as, uh, food,
you know, justice that we have to

00:52:14.530 --> 00:52:17.956
really, really work on. Can you talk a
little bit about it? I know you've

00:52:17.989 --> 00:52:20.827
kind of covered this, but we're just
gonna kinda recap what the challenges

00:52:20.860 --> 00:52:23.577
are to food sustainability,

00:52:23.610 --> 00:52:31.610
I think. Uh, yeah, I think there's a
lot of people that want to um produce

00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:37.155
food in a sustainable manner. But the
diff I think some of the

00:52:37.188 --> 00:52:42.626
difficulties are the fact that um
they're generally smaller scale

00:52:42.659 --> 00:52:49.416
operations. Um They're not working on
economies of scale. Um They're not,

00:52:49.449 --> 00:52:53.445
they're not beating the land up. So
they're not putting a ton of extra

00:52:53.478 --> 00:52:57.425
fertilizers and pesticides to grow
the, you know, the biggest output in

00:52:57.458 --> 00:53:02.445
the smallest amount of land. So they
have to charge more to, to stay in

00:53:02.478 --> 00:53:08.066
business. And I think price is, you
know, when it comes down to the bottom

00:53:08.099 --> 00:53:12.557
line, it's one of the biggest things
uh for whether it be a restaurant

00:53:12.590 --> 00:53:20.256
tour or, or a consumer at a farmer's
market. Um You know, that, that, that

00:53:20.289 --> 00:53:24.717
to me is the number one challenge is
to be able to somehow and, and I

00:53:24.750 --> 00:53:29.537
think that comes with um working with
the federal government and working

00:53:29.570 --> 00:53:34.287
with subsidies. I mean, we're
incentivizing the growing of the corn and

00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:38.206
the wheat and, you know, we have corn
syrup and everything. Well, I wonder

00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:42.506
why. Right. I mean, this corn syrup
developed because farmers had nothing

00:53:42.539 --> 00:53:47.227
to do with all these, this corn, you
know, they had no more outlets for it.

00:53:47.260 --> 00:53:49.977
Well, what else can we do with all
this extra corn that's sitting here?

00:53:50.010 --> 00:53:54.195
So they came up with different,
different outlets for it. And when, when

00:53:54.228 --> 00:53:59.146
you subsidize something, it becomes so
cheap and becomes a filler in all

00:53:59.179 --> 00:54:04.345
of our food, It, it's just, it's just
a backward system. Iii I believe, I

00:54:04.378 --> 00:54:08.717
think, uh, if we could start
subsidizing the smaller growers, there are

00:54:08.750 --> 00:54:12.997
people that are growing sustainably
and, you know, make that a cheaper

00:54:13.030 --> 00:54:16.876
alternative. I think it would, you
know, the long term effects of that

00:54:16.909 --> 00:54:22.135
would be outstanding on human health
nutrition. Um, you know, nutrient

00:54:22.168 --> 00:54:26.365
dense food is, you know, in my
opinion, the best thing to eat. But once

00:54:26.398 --> 00:54:31.456
again, if it's that versus calories
and you have to make that choice and

00:54:31.489 --> 00:54:35.856
you don't have access and you don't
have education, that's right back to,

00:54:35.889 --> 00:54:40.526
you know, getting the education early
on cycles of families. You know,

00:54:40.559 --> 00:54:44.267
well, this is how we ate and this is
how mom did. And, you know, we got

00:54:44.300 --> 00:54:47.776
this and we went and got a burger this
night and Kentucky Fried this night.

00:54:47.809 --> 00:54:51.756
And, you know, my kids, they brought
home last year, I think, or two

00:54:51.789 --> 00:54:55.856
years ago, a big one of the big
fundraisers for their elementary school

00:54:55.889 --> 00:54:59.925
was a coupon book. You know, as you
may you might have seen. And I, I'm

00:54:59.958 --> 00:55:07.296
not even kidding. The first, I think
23 pages, 23 pages were mcdonald's

00:55:07.329 --> 00:55:12.717
Kentucky Fried Chicken Burger King
Wendy's. Now, I'm not some saint that

00:55:12.750 --> 00:55:16.477
doesn't ever have fast food. And, uh,
you know, we like our In N Out

00:55:16.510 --> 00:55:20.327
Burgers from time to time and our, you
know, our other things. But I mean

00:55:20.360 --> 00:55:26.827
, we're wondering why we have an
obesity epidemic. And the main fundraiser

00:55:26.860 --> 00:55:30.336
is sending home and you want to buy
the, like, I, I bought it and didn't

00:55:30.369 --> 00:55:34.967
take the book. I just said, here's the
20 bucks or whatever. Um But that's

00:55:35.000 --> 00:55:38.936
an incentive whether, you know, for
parents to go do that, you know. Well

00:55:38.969 --> 00:55:43.635
, we got two for one here and which,
and it's all the 1st 22 pages and I

00:55:43.668 --> 00:55:46.135
don't know the, I mean, it's not a
simple answer. I wish I could just say

00:55:46.168 --> 00:55:49.807
, well, let's just do this, this and
this. But you know, their answer to

00:55:49.840 --> 00:55:54.756
me when I talked to the PT A president
who happened to be my neighbor,

00:55:54.789 --> 00:55:57.956
which I didn't realize at the time it
was very awkward the way that

00:55:57.989 --> 00:56:02.126
unfolded. She was like, oh, hi
Michael. I'm like, oh man, I wish I knew

00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:06.586
that before I wrote this email. But
ok, um you know, she's like, hey, it's

00:56:06.619 --> 00:56:11.717
the biggest fundraiser we have for the
year and, you know, I didn't have

00:56:11.750 --> 00:56:17.146
an alternative to that. So, um, so
it's, I mean, it's a, it's a big

00:56:17.179 --> 00:56:21.385
fundraiser but it's like, it's, it was
20 something pages of everything,

00:56:21.418 --> 00:56:28.606
fast food. And, uh, I don't know. Ok.
Um, can you talk, what should the

00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:33.376
food system in Phoenix look like in
2040? Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, yeah

00:56:33.409 --> 00:56:36.425
, what, what would I hope cause if I
knew the answer to doing that, you

00:56:36.458 --> 00:56:39.655
know, there's a lot of people that
wish that they had the answer to that,

00:56:39.688 --> 00:56:44.077
but I, I would like to see it more re
regionalized definitely. Um And I

00:56:44.110 --> 00:56:51.416
think whether it be co ops or some
kind of distribution centers that could

00:56:51.449 --> 00:56:56.287
help the smaller farmers get their
product to market. Um So they could

00:56:56.320 --> 00:57:00.655
spend more time doing what they know
how to do, which is grow food and

00:57:00.688 --> 00:57:05.686
less time running around in vans
trying to sell it before it goes bad. Um

00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:10.885
I think that would be very helpful. Um
But definitely, I'd like to see it

00:57:10.918 --> 00:57:15.467
structured more where, where we're
more self supportive and, and we're,

00:57:15.500 --> 00:57:21.626
and we're preserving uh traditions too
and preserving um plants, you know

00:57:21.659 --> 00:57:25.836
, like peppery beans or, I mean, you
can get a lot of great, great, great

00:57:25.869 --> 00:57:31.356
food here. Um Cactus prickly pear, you
know, prickly pear u using more

00:57:31.389 --> 00:57:35.717
things that grow here uh for years and
even things that maybe haven't

00:57:35.750 --> 00:57:40.155
grown here for years, you know, but
things that grow well here and they,

00:57:40.188 --> 00:57:44.006
they're not resource intensive, you
know, fig trees, things like that,

00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:47.155
that just grow, you know,
pomegranates. They grow amazingly well, here

00:57:47.188 --> 00:57:51.486
they don't need a ton of water. Let's,
you know, integrate more, more of

00:57:51.519 --> 00:57:56.445
those who went down to date in
Arizona, uh which grows dates. I don't, I'm

00:57:56.478 --> 00:58:02.066
sure that's a shocker but, and uh they
have dates everywhere and, and, and

00:58:02.099 --> 00:58:06.057
they're delicious. They, they make
date milkshakes and uh we took a trip

00:58:06.090 --> 00:58:10.635
down there with my staff to Blue Sky
Farms who was there at the time that

00:58:10.668 --> 00:58:14.655
had just this organic farm in the
middle of the desert. It was just a

00:58:14.688 --> 00:58:19.327
complete oasis. Um But, but really
using uh you know, mesquite, mesquite

00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:23.925
flour um keeping alive some of these
traditions of foods that have

00:58:23.958 --> 00:58:29.316
sustained people for, for years. And
so you've mentioned 22 organic farms

00:58:29.349 --> 00:58:32.997
that have already seems like they've
gone under saying that they were

00:58:33.030 --> 00:58:37.236
actually blue skies is still a farm,
but they, they, they moved back to

00:58:37.269 --> 00:58:44.037
the uh to the valley. Yeah, so I was
gonna ask but, but the uh the love

00:58:44.070 --> 00:58:50.425
grows farms is no longer existing and
a and small farm farming is a risky

00:58:50.458 --> 00:58:54.956
business. Um I would, I would say it's
comparable to the restaurant

00:58:54.989 --> 00:59:01.186
business, which is another very risk
risky business. Um And it's almost

00:59:01.219 --> 00:59:04.175
like they're not playing on an even
playing field. You know, when you,

00:59:04.208 --> 00:59:07.497
when you, when you open a small farm
or you open a small restaurant, your

00:59:07.530 --> 00:59:14.217
competition is, is big, is big ag,
it's big corporations, you know. Um,

00:59:14.250 --> 00:59:17.666
you go to a mom and pop restaurant in
the summer here in Arizona on a

00:59:17.699 --> 00:59:21.247
Tuesday night, you might see like two
other tables in there. You go to

00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:25.655
Cheesecake Factory and during the
recession on a Tuesday night in the

00:59:25.688 --> 00:59:29.595
summer, which is our off season and
there's a wait at the door. So, I mean

00:59:29.628 --> 00:59:32.477
,

00:59:32.510 --> 00:59:39.057
I don't know the answer. What policy
changes would you think would help to

00:59:39.090 --> 00:59:43.126
towards a more sustainable food system
in 2040? Yeah, I mean, I think, I

00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:47.686
think the big one would be to
completely rook at what we're doing with

00:59:47.719 --> 00:59:53.577
subsidies uh in the federal government
and uh giving the um smaller

00:59:53.610 --> 00:59:59.307
farmers more of an advantage because
quite honestly, the big monoculture,

00:59:59.340 --> 01:00:03.345
big agriculture, huge companies have a
huge advantage with all the

01:00:03.378 --> 01:00:08.767
government subsidies they get. Um and
that puts, once again, it puts the

01:00:08.800 --> 01:00:14.186
whole, I think it puts it devalues
food and the fact that consumers think

01:00:14.219 --> 01:00:18.885
that food only costs that much to grow
and that's what it's worth. And

01:00:18.918 --> 01:00:22.467
then you have somebody that's growing
it on a smaller scale, not getting

01:00:22.500 --> 01:00:28.445
subsidies growing it sustainably
looking towards future generations and

01:00:28.478 --> 01:00:33.307
they have to charge more. Um But yet I
think the ed the perception, the

01:00:33.340 --> 01:00:37.706
consumer perception is that well,
that's too much. Um So we need to make a

01:00:37.739 --> 01:00:42.135
prior I think food, good food, real
food, wholesome food needs to be more

01:00:42.168 --> 01:00:49.936
of a priority. And folks 20 years ago
didn't have an extra $70 in their

01:00:49.969 --> 01:00:53.566
budget to pay for cell phone bill.
They didn't have that. They were like,

01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:56.586
if you told someone that 20 years ago
they'd be like, you're crazy. I

01:00:56.619 --> 01:01:00.405
don't have that money, but yet somehow
they work that into, into their

01:01:00.438 --> 01:01:04.477
budget because it became a priority to
have a cellphone. And I think, I

01:01:04.510 --> 01:01:09.296
think if it becomes a priority to eat,
you know, more wholesome food,

01:01:09.329 --> 01:01:11.997
there's, you know, there's a, there's
a way to do that. It just has to

01:01:12.030 --> 01:01:19.736
become a priority uh in your life. Ok.
Um Final question is, can you share

01:01:19.769 --> 01:01:23.477
with us your fondest food, memory,

01:01:23.510 --> 01:01:30.635
my fondest food, memory, cooking or
boy, I don't know, eating or? Yeah, I

01:01:30.668 --> 01:01:35.115
have so many. Oh, a couple.

01:01:35.148 --> 01:01:40.747
Ok. Let's see. Uh

01:01:40.780 --> 01:01:48.086
um All right, I'll get, I, I'll give
you, I'll give you a couple. Um not,

01:01:48.119 --> 01:01:54.037
not cooking or creating really. But uh
we, I was a part of a leadership uh

01:01:54.070 --> 01:01:58.526
program for one of the companies I
worked with. And when we graduated from

01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:04.296
that, they took us to Napa. Um and we
went to uh Coppola Winery, Francis

01:02:04.329 --> 01:02:10.316
Ford Coppola's Company and they took
us down, they had set up in the

01:02:10.349 --> 01:02:15.477
basement of the private Coppola
cellars, uh a table for our group like 15

01:02:15.510 --> 01:02:22.537
people just in the wine cellar. Just
Sophia Coppola. His daughter was

01:02:22.570 --> 01:02:29.896
being nominated for uh a Oscar, uh,
that night they wheeled in a TV into

01:02:29.929 --> 01:02:33.586
this old rustic wine cellar. So that
kind of was, was kind of like what's

01:02:33.619 --> 01:02:39.356
going on. Oh, well, his uh uh his
daughter is being nominated. So we're

01:02:39.389 --> 01:02:43.526
eating this, I mean, unbelievable,
probably six course meal, all locally

01:02:43.559 --> 01:02:48.267
sourced, you know, drinking the wines
and just having a, having a great

01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:51.595
time. So if you have a couple of wins,
the, you know, so there, the place

01:02:51.628 --> 01:02:58.506
is erupting and it just, and it was,
it was, it was pretty cool. Um You

01:02:58.539 --> 01:03:04.595
know, other food memories. Uh growing
up, we used to go, we used to go up

01:03:04.628 --> 01:03:09.287
in summer vacations up to Maine or we
also went down sometimes to more of

01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:15.356
the Delmarva area or Virginia, North
Carolina and uh gathering seafood. We

01:03:15.389 --> 01:03:20.925
used to go out to the rocks and pick
Mussels, um and eat them. Um, down in

01:03:20.958 --> 01:03:26.296
um Virginia in North Carolina, we
would put out crab traps for blue crabs

01:03:26.329 --> 01:03:32.135
and actually catch, you know, 1520
crabs and have a big, you know, put the

01:03:32.168 --> 01:03:37.595
newspapers out on the table, big crab
boil type of thing. Um That was

01:03:37.628 --> 01:03:43.396
pretty cool. Um God,

01:03:43.429 --> 01:03:48.865
you know, uh my mom's spag gotta,
gotta give mom spaghetti with meat sauce.

01:03:48.898 --> 01:03:55.816
It was a classic growing up. Um Really
awesome. Uh As far as, you know,

01:03:55.849 --> 01:04:00.956
cooking, there's, you know, some big,
uh, big events in my history that I

01:04:00.989 --> 01:04:03.997
remember doing. We did, uh, we did an
event in Saint Louis one time for

01:04:04.030 --> 01:04:10.967
13,000 people. Uh, three course, three
course dinner, salad stool entree.

01:04:11.000 --> 01:04:16.405
I think it was like filet and seafood.
Uh, plus a dessert for 13,000

01:04:16.438 --> 01:04:21.206
people that takes a, takes a few days
of planning if you can, few days of

01:04:21.239 --> 01:04:27.967
planning. Um, you know, just, uh,
yeah, I, what do you enjoy most about

01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:31.675
cooking?

01:04:31.708 --> 01:04:36.936
I think I enjoy, I enjoy the, the
creativity of it. I really like the

01:04:36.969 --> 01:04:43.807
creativity of it. And to be honest as
far as not at home, but in the, in

01:04:43.840 --> 01:04:48.166
the business, I think I en, I think I
enjoy the, the camaraderie and the

01:04:48.199 --> 01:04:53.905
teamwork and almost the adrenaline
rush of, you know, because you're

01:04:53.938 --> 01:04:57.956
always behind in the restaurant
business, you're always working, like to

01:04:57.989 --> 01:05:02.256
try to keep up, you know, and at the
end of the day you, you know, you

01:05:02.289 --> 01:05:06.546
feel like you accomplished something,
I mean, you nourish people. Um, you

01:05:06.579 --> 01:05:11.296
, you, there's, there's a very instant
sense of gratification, I think

01:05:11.329 --> 01:05:15.416
from, from doing that. And you worked
as a, as a team because there's very

01:05:15.449 --> 01:05:18.827
few places where you're there by
yourself. You know, you have to

01:05:18.860 --> 01:05:21.445
coordinate a lot of things with a lot
of people. It's almost like an

01:05:21.478 --> 01:05:25.206
orchestra back, back in the kitchen of
everything coming together. If

01:05:25.239 --> 01:05:29.925
you're gonna have really good hot you
know, not cold hot comes to the

01:05:29.958 --> 01:05:33.945
table beautifully presented. There's
so much that went into that from

01:05:33.978 --> 01:05:39.666
producer of every single item to the
actual cook, um, that put everything

01:05:39.699 --> 01:05:44.416
away and stored it in the
refrigerators to the cook that pre prepped it to

01:05:44.449 --> 01:05:49.655
the cooks that are now searing it or,
you know, bro, roasting it, whatever

01:05:49.688 --> 01:05:52.776
they're doing to the fact that it all
has to come together and get plated

01:05:52.809 --> 01:05:57.376
hot at one time, put up and then
delivered to you. So it's, it's really a

01:05:57.409 --> 01:06:04.106
lot of moving parts going on in the
preparation of food. Um So, II, I

01:06:04.139 --> 01:06:11.026
think, you know, I really like that
and it's definitely um relaxing to me

01:06:11.059 --> 01:06:14.477
at the same time, which is hard to
believe it's stressful and re and re

01:06:14.510 --> 01:06:21.736
and kind of re a 12 hour day in the
kitchen. Seems like a 34 hour day. I

01:06:21.769 --> 01:06:26.905
mean, it goes by so fast. Um You know,
I haven't, the last few years, I

01:06:26.938 --> 01:06:31.836
haven't, my role has taken me more
outside of the kitchen. Um But I still

01:06:31.869 --> 01:06:35.646
love uh when they do, let me back in
the kitchen, I still do teach classes

01:06:35.679 --> 01:06:41.146
and uh do non credit workshops and
that kind of stuff. So, but yeah, I

01:06:41.179 --> 01:06:46.717
think uh definitely that just being
able to really see the satisfaction on

01:06:46.750 --> 01:06:51.046
someone's face when, when you put your
heart and soul into what you're

01:06:51.079 --> 01:06:55.526
creating and to see the fact that
they, how much they appreciate it. Can

01:06:55.559 --> 01:07:00.365
you just one more question to someone
who does not like to cook or does

01:07:00.398 --> 01:07:06.595
not see, sees the value of cooking
would prefer to go to the driver. I

01:07:06.628 --> 01:07:11.365
mean, how do you convince that person
that it's worth going to the grocery

01:07:11.398 --> 01:07:14.376
store and making that meal?

01:07:14.409 --> 01:07:19.686
It's difficult because we live in a
world of a lot of competing priorities

01:07:19.719 --> 01:07:26.316
and, and families and longer work
schedules. And, um, some people I would

01:07:26.349 --> 01:07:32.287
say really for the most part it's
probably not a, not a reality that

01:07:32.320 --> 01:07:37.307
they're gonna do it. I mean, they're
just so busy. But what I, what I

01:07:37.340 --> 01:07:41.115
would say is you're gonna cook
something, cooking yourself, you're gonna

01:07:41.148 --> 01:07:46.856
get, if you're buying fresh produce,
if you're buying decent ingredients,

01:07:46.889 --> 01:07:51.615
you're gonna, you're gonna get,
there's, I don't know, a s,

01:07:51.648 --> 01:07:55.967
a satisfaction, uh, you're gonna
nourish yourself a heck of a lot better.

01:07:56.000 --> 01:07:59.885
But at the same point it's a tough
argument to make sometimes because

01:07:59.918 --> 01:08:04.026
there's nights when I get home and I,
I don't want to cook, you know, it's

01:08:04.059 --> 01:08:09.296
, it's like the bowl of cereal night.
Right. We don't do that very often.

01:08:09.329 --> 01:08:14.077
But I remember my mom used to, used
to, she was like, it's funny too

01:08:14.110 --> 01:08:18.425
because my mom is a great cook. Um,
but she was, she'd get home after a

01:08:18.458 --> 01:08:22.496
tired night at 67 o'clock and she, she
was like, give me a bowl of cereal

01:08:22.529 --> 01:08:26.357
or whatever. And I'm going to sit and
watch the news or whatever. Whereas

01:08:26.390 --> 01:08:30.406
my dad would get home at eight o'clock
at night and he, he'd get the clam

01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:34.027
sauce going, you know, get the
linguini over here. He's chopping his

01:08:34.060 --> 01:08:38.376
parsley for his clam sauce. And so two
different, two different things.

01:08:38.409 --> 01:08:42.925
But some, it's just, some people, it's
never gonna be their thing, I don't

01:08:42.958 --> 01:08:49.437
think to cook, they're just not gonna,
not gonna enjoy it. Um But uh I

01:08:49.470 --> 01:08:54.626
think, and I, I think a, I'm not sure,
but I think a lot of it is, is

01:08:54.659 --> 01:09:00.987
almost a fear of cooking as well. Um a
lack of knowledge of how a few

01:09:01.020 --> 01:09:08.305
simple concepts or techniques can
really expand, really expand. Um And I

01:09:08.338 --> 01:09:13.256
can be that way after 27 years in the
industry, something if I've never

01:09:13.289 --> 01:09:16.147
done something and I have it worked up
in my head that it's this huge

01:09:16.180 --> 01:09:20.986
process and then you do it and you go
through it and you're like, that

01:09:21.019 --> 01:09:24.375
wasn't hard. It was pretty easy. So, I
mean, it's not rocket science and

01:09:24.408 --> 01:09:29.014
that's what we tell our students and
that's what um you know, my mentors

01:09:29.047 --> 01:09:32.035
told me growing up, he said, if
you're, if you're a brain surgeon and

01:09:32.068 --> 01:09:36.276
you're having a bad day at work, you
know, there's some really re some,

01:09:36.309 --> 01:09:41.554
some repercussions, you know, if you
don't perfectly salt or perfectly

01:09:41.587 --> 01:09:47.706
season the dish life goes on. So, ok.
Um One last question when you're

01:09:47.739 --> 01:09:51.397
preparing a meal, you said that your
heart and soul goes in it. Do you

01:09:51.430 --> 01:09:55.567
think that's, you can taste that when
you actually? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

01:09:55.600 --> 01:10:00.036
I think, I think, you know, when
somebody puts love or heart and soul into

01:10:00.069 --> 01:10:03.765
what they're making, um, you can taste
it, you can, you can see it in the

01:10:03.798 --> 01:10:07.967
preparation. Um, you can see it in
the, the care they put into, just

01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:12.296
putting it on the plate. What it looks
like. Did they wipe the rim of the

01:10:12.329 --> 01:10:18.116
plate or is it kind of messy even in,
even in a uh uh fast food? For

01:10:18.149 --> 01:10:22.187
example, I mean, there's times when
you get, you just open something

01:10:22.220 --> 01:10:26.067
that's perfectly folded, everything
looks just fresh and like you can tell

01:10:26.100 --> 01:10:31.336
somebody put, you know, whether it's
their pride for doing a good job or,

01:10:31.369 --> 01:10:34.515
or what it is, you, there's a big
difference, there's a big difference in

01:10:34.548 --> 01:10:38.656
it. You, you, you can ultimately taste
it in my, in my opinion, any final

01:10:38.689 --> 01:10:41.086
closing thoughts, anything I missed
that you'd like to cover that? I

01:10:41.119 --> 01:10:44.055
didn't. Um

01:10:44.088 --> 01:10:49.357
No, I just think uh I appreciate the
uh appreciate the interview and I

01:10:49.390 --> 01:10:54.467
really hope we can strive to get
closer to a, to a sustainable food system.

01:10:54.500 --> 01:11:00.446
But um I would say for me, it boils
down to education and, and really

01:11:00.479 --> 01:11:05.876
because we have to, we have to break
some cycles. Um and the education is

01:11:05.909 --> 01:11:10.666
not coming from home. It is, in some
cases and in other cases it's just,

01:11:10.699 --> 01:11:15.326
people are, are stuck in a cycle and
don't have the freedom of choice

01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:21.095
because they either don't have access,
um, be it physically or monetarily

01:11:21.128 --> 01:11:24.487
and they don't have the edu, if they
don't have the education, they don't

01:11:24.520 --> 01:11:27.756
have the choice because I don't think
they believe that there's a choice,

01:11:27.789 --> 01:11:32.425
you know, that they can eat nutritious
food. Um, so, yeah, there's a lot

01:11:32.458 --> 01:11:35.866
that needs to be done. But, and how
would you start the role of change in

01:11:35.899 --> 01:11:39.946
the education? Well, I, once again, I
think I would put it, I would bring

01:11:39.979 --> 01:11:43.687
it into, I would bring curriculum into
elementary schools and start right

01:11:43.720 --> 01:11:49.555
off the bat educating people about how
important it is. Um, nutrition,

01:11:49.588 --> 01:11:53.206
nutrition classes. But it would, but
it would have to be expe expe

01:11:53.239 --> 01:11:57.376
experiential and there's, there we go.
It had to be, you have to be

01:11:57.409 --> 01:12:00.515
experienced learning, you know, it had
to be contextual. It would have to

01:12:00.548 --> 01:12:04.175
, they would have to do, you know,
there. So, get them, get them

01:12:04.208 --> 01:12:07.746
physically cooking, get them planting
seeds and looking, you know, work

01:12:07.779 --> 01:12:12.366
that into other aspects of the
curriculum. Um, so they're, you know,

01:12:12.399 --> 01:12:16.357
they're aware of that at an early age,
you know, that, that it's really

01:12:16.390 --> 01:12:20.576
important that, that, um, you're able
to cook for yourself, that you're

01:12:20.609 --> 01:12:24.536
able to do these things and not get
stuck in the rut. Of, you know, having

01:12:24.569 --> 01:12:29.456
to eat fast food all the time. Do you
think it's important this community

01:12:29.489 --> 01:12:33.897
school gardens are, or school gardens
are important? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I, I

01:12:33.930 --> 01:12:39.006
think, uh, school gardens are, are
very important. Um, you know, coming

01:12:39.039 --> 01:12:44.456
from an aspect of elementary schools
and high schools definitely. I think

01:12:44.489 --> 01:12:48.956
once again, the more we can connect
people to the food they eat the better.

01:12:48.989 --> 01:12:53.147
I mean, we're just so disconnected
right now and I see it all the time

01:12:53.180 --> 01:12:55.956
when I go into schools and talk to
people that there's a, there's a

01:12:55.989 --> 01:13:00.305
complete disconnect and, and if you,
that's just in food, but you

01:13:00.338 --> 01:13:04.116
mentioned sustainability or, you know,
thinking even beyond that about how

01:13:04.149 --> 01:13:08.595
it's produced and this and that
there's a, there's a absolute disconnect.

01:13:08.628 --> 01:13:13.366
Um And so if the edu education, if it
doesn't start with the education and

01:13:13.399 --> 01:13:17.555
people aren't aware, you don't know
what you don't know. You know. And uh

01:13:17.588 --> 01:13:22.805
so without that, at least planting the
seed, um so that they can think of

01:13:22.838 --> 01:13:27.366
the food system in a different way and
not just accept the, the status quo

01:13:27.399 --> 01:13:31.496
as well. This is, this is what it is.
This is, this is what I know, give

01:13:31.529 --> 01:13:34.265
them, give them options at least, you
know, I don't, I don't believe in

01:13:34.298 --> 01:13:37.987
telling anyone how to eat or what they
should eat. I really don't, but I

01:13:38.020 --> 01:13:42.536
do believe in creating awareness and
of what's out there and what our

01:13:42.569 --> 01:13:47.616
current system is doing, the
implications. Um And what different,

01:13:47.649 --> 01:13:52.296
different avenues that they can go in
and what they eat. So I will never

01:13:52.329 --> 01:13:55.857
say don't eat this, this is evil, eat
this, this is good. There are people

01:13:55.890 --> 01:13:59.746
out there that will say that I'm not,
I'm a little bit more middle ground.

01:13:59.779 --> 01:14:05.107
But I think of, I think of creating
awareness and being educating folks

01:14:05.140 --> 01:14:08.046
of the different possibilities.
Ultimately, it's your choice. It's your

01:14:08.079 --> 01:14:12.737
body. What you put into it is your
choice. You know, II I don't

01:14:12.770 --> 01:14:18.046
necessarily believe in banning 32
ounce sodas. Um, but that's a whole

01:14:18.079 --> 01:14:24.470
different avenue of food politics. So
OK, thank you very much.