Today is August 7th 2015. My name is Christina VM interviewing for
Arizona State University Dinner 2440. I'm asking you to um, interviewing
Mr Arnette Duncan. Arnette Duncan. Can you spell, can you spell your first
name? Sure. It's a RNO tt and Duncan is D UN. Can thank you. And then
could I ask you to say your title as well and the organization that you
work for for? So I work with a lot of really need people at Duncan family
farms. Um just west of Phoenix, about 30 miles west of Phoenix in Goodyear
, Arizona. Ok. So let's talk a little bit about um, your background and
how your family got into farming. Ok. Um So my biological father passed
when I was four or five. My mom remarried when I was eight or nine. And um
so my dad, since I was young enough, um, you know, I just, my stepfather
is my dad. So he is the third generation farmer, his farm, his family
rather actually homesteaded in Arizona, the southwest corner of what is
now Seventh Avenue and Southern in South Phoenix. And so I grew up as a
little kid going out to the farm, you know, all summers, weekends,
holidays, really, any time that we were needed and we were pretty much
needed all the time. And, uh, and I just loved it. Um, you know, back then
the farm was that classic Central Arizona cotton, you know, forages,
cereal grains and, you know, you know, an, an, an odd, uh, an odd little,
uh, you know, seed variety here or there that you would try. But for the
most part, um we didn't do any vegetables. My dad, my dad did a few
watermelons here and there because that's kind of what he grew up doing
when he was in high school. Um Anyway, that he uh that was our, that was
our, our first foray into uh vegetables, fresh fruits and vegetables was
watermelons. And so my dad came by that, you know, years ago when he was
in high school, um I was gonna say when all the uh when all the men went
off to war in World War Two, there weren't enough guys around to harvest.
And so he and his high, he organized his high school, but he's mostly
football players and they went and harvested watermelons. And so that just
stuck with my dad. And so shoot, he, he grew melons for decades.
So tell me what it was about the farm and going out and working at it and
, and what you enjoyed it. But also, you know, kind of you were young and
it was hot and it's hard. Can you explain kind of, you know, it's funny
looking back, you know, when, if you look at what we did today, looking
back, given today's regulations, um, present age, uh, obviously, you know
, now that I'm, now that I'm in my late fifties, you know, I look back on
what we did and just am amazed at some of the things that we did and, and
, uh, you just learned so much from being out on the farm, um, frequently
on your, on your own with, you know, you with your, I was with my brother
and my cousins. We're all about the same age. And, um, you know, our, our
first jobs on the farm were, were basically
cutting weeds, digging ditches, you know, the, the romantic part of
farming. And, uh, and it was just, you know, but lunchtime and, and of
course, and of course, any of our breaks that we would take, we weren't,
we probably weren't tired. We just wanted to play. Um, but we took breaks
and sometimes, you know, if, if the lizard got away from you, it would
take a lot longer to take that break than another one. But, um, we had fun
out on the farm. We learned to drive, um, we learned to drive tractors
first. We learned to drive tractors before, before we could reach the
pedals. And it wasn't as necessary to reach the pedals. My dad would just
move the seat back on the tractor. There was a hand clutch on the John
Deere tractor and, and so you could kind of scoot around to hit the brake
on the left side while you were working the clutch with your hand. And,
and so you, you learn to do things and, and become, I guess, self self
supporting you, I guess it's a pretty good place to just learn how to do
things and, and in and in doing that things that we thought were just
average every day friends that we went to school with because I grew up in
downtown Phoenix. Um, you know, when I was a young guy, we were, we lived
on about 32nd street in Oak. And so we just drove out to the farm. Um, but
, uh, yeah, it was just, it was just fun growing up on the farm, the
things that the things that we did that our buddies downtown, you know,
just were amazed that we could drive, you know, and I started driving cars
and trucks when I was a little guy too, you know, and really, um, trying
to get, you know, to the pedals and everything. There were, there were
times when, you know, the old, uh, the old thick telephone book came into
play frequently. So anyway, it was fun. It was fun. And then on top of
just being a kid out on a farm without a lot of rules there, there was,
there was this attraction to the outdoors. Um, and I couldn't put my
finger on it. Even when I got into college, I didn't know. Then my first
year in college, um, you know, I was, I was always attracted to the
natural sciences in, in high school. Um, I didn't have that opportunity to
do the 4h or F fa. I went to, I went to Catholic grade schools. I went to
brophy prep. Um So, you know, when, when buddies in uh in agriculture
would say, hey, remember an F fa when we did this and Yeah. No, I don't.
Um But I always enjoyed the natural sciences and, and when I got to my, my
freshman year at the University of Arizona in Tucson, I just II, I wanted
to be in agriculture. I wanted to be working outside here. We sit in my
office, but this isn't the place that brings me joy. It's walking fields,
it's being out um working the land, I guess. Um And it's just,
it's, it's kind of funny when people, when people ask me today, what are
you going to do? When are you going to retire? And, you know, I think
classic farmers don't, I don't know that we ever retire really, you know,
you just slow down a little bit. But my answer is kind of a pat patent.
Just a, you know, I, I see myself as an Agra and I'm a consultant to my
own company after I get out of everybody's way, you know, because there
are these, these, these, these guys that are coming up in the, in the
company are so sharp, they're dedicated. They come preloaded with so much
really cool information. Um that, yeah, at some point in time I'll be
getting out of their way and, and just hopefully still able to contribute
at a level and, and I know I'll always be able to enjoy the farm. So, you
know, hopefully they'll be patient with me and, and let me hang around. So
let's talk a little bit about the work ethic. You learned working on the
farm and growing up on the farm, kind of how has that played a role in
your life today?
You learn that hard work is what is just what everybody should do, you
know, it's just hard work, isn't that difficult? If, if, when you do it
every day, it's just not that difficult. Um And then when you, when you
see today to, to this day, um I have a respect for people who work hard,
who, who actually appreciate
the art of agriculture or plumbing or electronics or, or carpentry or, or
whatever it is. Um There's an artistry to that and I appreciate that at
every level and to this day, you know, we have, we have wonderful people
that, that we get to work with, you know, at an entry level position on
the farm and, and I like to go around and, and go out and, and sometimes
over in the California, one of the California farms, we have rocks
everywhere. We had to pick up rocks because they were literally killing
the equipment. And the only way we could do that, um, at that point in
time anyway, was literally just walk out with our, with our hands and, and
pick them up and throw them in a trailer. And so I remember the, you know
, going by the I still to this day whenever I see a rock crew, you know, I
want to go out, walk out and shake their hands and say, thank you for
doing this. I know this is a, this is a hell hellish task. Thanks for
doing this. And they're like, they're looking at me like, hey, what are
you talking about? This is what we do, right? You know, you're paying us
to do this, we do this, you know, we're good. Um And, and I just want them
to know now I, I appreciate you being here. Um You could do any, you can
do anything for this price, you can do anything anywhere and I just want
you to know that I appreciate you doing this here today. Um And I'm sure
that as I'm driving out there going, so who was that guy anyway? And, but
I, you know, it just, it just gives you an appreciation for the value of
what everybody does. So um hard work is hard work. I mean, but I got, I, I
have to tell you a story. My uh my older son went to work with his uncle
for a couple of weeks in a uh in a large food service venue, uh country
club of some sort. And so, you know, Kel was, was kind of interested in,
in that industry at the time. And, and so, you know, his uncle said, hey,
come on out, take a look at it, see what you see, what you think. So, you
know, I'm sure he probably started washing dishes, you know, bussing
tables here and there just doing what anybody can do just stepping off the
street. And, uh, so he'd go in early in the morning and, you know, work
his work, his hours clean up from the night before whatever that looked
like. And, uh, and I'll never forget that. Uh, he, he called me up the
next day after work and, and he said, hey, I got to, oh, no, I talked to,
I talked to, uh, I talked to my brother-in-law, his uncle, he called me up
and he said, hey, I want to share you share with you an interaction that,
uh, that one of my, one of my supervisors just had with cal, he said,
you'll get a kick out of this. So, um, so he goes on to explain that Kell
had come in early, worked all morning, um, stayed a little later to kind
of help prep for something. And then they had a few people not show up for
what was a large gala event that night. And so they looked at Kel, the
supervisor, looks at Kel and just says, Kel, would you even consider, you
know, helping serve tonight? And he said, sure, you know, I just point to
where I go what I do and sure I'll, I'll do it. And so they gave him his,
his, his white coat and, and, um, gloves or whatever it was and he, uh, he
stays, he stays that night, late, late into the evening and works all
night, helps clean up. And, um, and then shows up early the next day,
which by that time is probably maybe four hours later or something shows
up to work and starts doing what he normally does. And the supervisor came
in, made a point of coming in to just to mention to my brother in law that
Kell, what that, when she went to Kel to say, wow,
that, that was incredible. I mean, the fact that you literally worked all
day was just amazing. And, and, and what the report from my brother in law
was. So Kel right, right off the bat, looks at her and says, oh, wait, you
think that was hard work? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Um, harvesting
packing watermelons at 100 and 13 degrees, you know, for 8.5 to 10.5 hours
a day. That's work. This, I can do this all the time. So if that gives you
an indication as to, you know, the level of appreciation that you have and
, and just learning how to work hard, I think K explained it pretty well.
He absolutely did. Can you tell me a little bit about kind of the? And so
you get an idea that I don't have a problem telling you things. In fact,
you're gonna have to shove me up when I get. So I have as much time as you
do today. So my, my schedule is open. Um And it's a great story. So that's
perfect. Tell me a little bit about um the harvesting of the vegetables
and the family dinner table and what that was like kind of that
interaction between your family and
cooking. And so,
so
interestingly when, when the, when the boys were little, when I have, I
have two boys, um, 2.5 boys,
the half is that, um, because I know you're thinking, well, what is that?
Um The half is a young man,
young man came to us, uh when he was 14 or 15, his freshman year in high
school. Uh He was on the basketball, the freshman basketball team with my
younger son Sean and um
his, for lack of a better definition, his family, his, his, his home
situation kind of imploded and so actually maybe exploded. So, uh, he
didn't have anywhere to go. So my younger son invited him to come home and
spend the night and, um, you know, get dinner or whatever. And so, you
know, he came over and, and we got to meet Javier is the young man's name.
And, uh, so we got to meet, we got to meet hobby and so basketball starts
and Kathleen's, you know, bringing hobby, you know, the, the, the freshman
team, they get to go last,
they're last, they're low on the to or, yeah, they're low on the total
pole. So, anyway, um,
Kathleen goes to take half home one night and there's just police caution
tape around the entire house and make a long story short. There was
his, his, most of his family was in jail and his younger sister had been
taken away. He had no idea where, but there was no one to talk to the
neighbors just said everybody's gone. And so have you spent the night? And
, um, so we washed his clothes, got him a toothbrush. Um,
and he was good to go to school the next day, but he couldn't find
anything out about where he was supposed to go stay, whatever, everybody
was in jail. So he spent the night again and then he spent another night
and he spent another night and, you know, my,
my wife, Kathleen,
who is, let me just say this, it's always better to really marry. Well, um
, she is absolutely the better half. She took Abby out and just said, you
know, why don't you, why would it be easier to stay with us if, if he had
a little bit of clothing because he, he couldn't get any clothing that the
house was shut down. So, um, so we bought some clothes, um, probably got
some deodorants and, you know, whatever else those guys need when they're
a freshman in high school, we, we got that stuff and so the, uh, the half
, um, started and so we have 2.5 boys.
But anyway, um, when, when, uh, the original two K and Sean, uh, were
little guys, we decided to open the farm up to the public and that was in
the early nineties. And, um, and so you talk about dinner around the table
and, and so it was really fun, you know, to, to have the boys out on the
farm, right? Because they're, they're little guys and they're, they're
cruising around on the farm and they, they were catching toads and chasing
lizards and all the stuff that I did and they were having a ball, but I'll
never forget, never forget. Um, our youngest son who was shoot 22 at the
time, two something. And, um,
with Kathleen had gone to get a pizza and she, she pulls down the tailgate
of the truck and, and, uh, you know, we dive into our to our juice and,
and pizza. And Sean says, mom, are we ever gonna have dinner at our table
again? And she looks at me,
I almost half choked on the pizza and it was like, ok, so we might be
spending a little too much time at the farm here. How do we back off? And
so we just, you know, we made a point of starting to have dinner time and
making a point of, of, you know, not sitting in front of the TV, but
sitting down with each other at the same table and, and having dinner. And
what was really, what was really interesting is I enjoyed, I enjoy those
moments so much that, that and it's a joke in the family that I, uh I, I
put my fork down, maybe take a drink of milk or water or whatever and, and
uh, and I just sit and, and kind of look around the table and just sort of
take it all in and, and so, and so Sean the same younger son, the same guy
says, you know, pops, it's a little creepy that, that you just put your
fork on and kind of just stare at us for a little bit. He said, I get it.
It's kind of cool. You're just enjoying the moment, but it's a little
creepy. And so after we all stopped laughing, I just said, I absolutely
love these moments and you're right. I would just I would just freeze this
right now if I could, you know, and I'd, I'd look at those guys and say,
I'd like to freeze you right where you're at too because this is, you guys
are just so fun all the time and, and they're just like, they just hit you
, you know, and just go. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Pops. Um, so dinner was,
dinner was just time with family, you know. So breakfast and dinner, I
didn't have lunch with them and, and I got to the point where I'd start to
go into work just a little bit later just so that I could have breakfast
with them before they went to school so that I could see them twice a day
. I get to see them in the morning and get to see them at night and I'd
stay at work a little bit later, but I'd still get them at night and, and
in the day and to me that, that was twice as much time and, and I think it
was the same with them. Um,
but I, I'll never know because I'm not gonna ask him. But to me it was, it
was a significant thing and then it happens at the dinner table that makes
it so important. It makes you enjoy those stories, stories about what you
did during the day and, and, you know, for us, I gotta tell you, you know
, when they were that age, it wasn't so much about the preparation of the
food or anything. And oh my God. And when they got older, it definitely
was not about the preparation of the food. Because as they grew their six
, they're 65 and 64 J six or 61 and their friends, we had the, we had the
, you know, the Kool Aid house if you will. So all their friends and we
loved it. We wanted to have that house where everybody came, you know, we
wanted the house that everybody came to because we, we love knowing what
they were up to, you know, and, and, um, and just enjoyed, enjoyed that
time with them so much but honest, honestly, I'll never forget Kathleen
running back into the back room one time just going. You got to come out
and help me. She's going, I literally cannot prepare food fast enough to
get in front of these guys. II, I just, they're, they're, they're starving
, you know, there's, there's no chunks out of the furniture yet. But, you
know, you gotta, you gotta give me a hand here. The microwave isn't fast
enough. So, uh, so I went out and, and here's, you know, part of the
basketball team, some guys from the baseball team, football team and, and
they're all big, they're all big guys and they were just tearing through
the food. And so I, I have to admit that, you know, when, when, uh, in, in
their formative ages shall we say? They probably weren't eating the best
stuff around, just massive quantities of it. You know, as they're tearing
through me, you know, huge numbers of calories every day as they're, as
they're lifting in the morning running and then, and then, you know, open
gym or whatever the season, you know, look like. So, yeah, we were just
trying to keep those guys, you know, full
anyway. Yeah. Sorry, I digress. No, no, no, it's great. So today, let me
share with you today is so funny because uh just the other day. So now,
you know, when, especially when we're in season here in Arizona, you know
, now it's, it's uh, you know, I harvest, I harvest things and I take them
home and, and, you know, we juice a lot, the boys juice, they, they love
doing the juicing thing. We do a lot of juicing, um for breakfast and, and
even to drink with lunch and maybe dinner. But, you know, for Kathleen and
I dinner is a large bowl of salad with, with different ingredients. Um,
but then the entree, you know, fish chicken usually will be on top and
that's, that's dinner. And then we usually get out of the same bowl, you
know, handing it back and forth and carrying on conversations about what
she's doing, what I'm doing, what the boys are doing and, and uh you know
, visiting about friends and, and just that's, that's dinner, but it's
basically a salad with something on top and that just seems very natural
to us. But, uh, I, I can't remember which, which one of our boys it was. I
think it was, uh, I think it was Sean was over the other day. And, uh, and
he's looking kind of rummaging through the refrigerator really quick and
he's going ma, you don't have anything to eat in here. The only thing I
see is there's, there's just ingredients. Yeah. And so we just, we just
loved that statement so much. Um, because, you know, and, and yet he, uh,
he enjoys good, healthy meals with us, but at that moment he just wanted
that thing to throw in the microwave because he had, he had a short period
of time and, you know, to have lunch or whatever it was he wanted, he
needed to get going. So, anyway, uh, that's, that's dinner for us. So
that's, those are meals, meals have been, you know, I guess just, just
whenever whatever time we can get to hang out with each other, what made
you decide to go into the family business? And at what point did you make
that decision? Do you think? I just knew, like I said, well, early on in
my, in my academic life, um, I just knew I wanted to be outside. It was,
it was pretty quickly that, that I transferred that interest of just being
outdoors to really wanting to learn about, um, agronomy. So, uh so I got
my, my degree in Agronomy and plant genetics. I, I graduated in the early
eighties and just went out to the farm. Um, the family farm and so started
, started working in the family farm and doing that classic central
Arizona, you know, row crop configuration. But, but there were signals to
me, um,
that, that I picked up. Um, I studied, I had the opportunity to study some
, you know, the sale of commodities. So I, I studied the commodity market
actually, you know, bought some futures, you know, with my dad's, with my
dad's blessing and, and uh we went in together and, and we, we bought and
sold cotton so that I could learn um how to buy and sell cotton, how to
market more efficiently because, you know, the easiest thing sometimes in
the fresh fruit and vegetable, any crop that you're growing, any part of
agriculture, the easiest thing to do is to produce the most challenging is
to market. And, and so I wanted to learn this thing about cotton marketing.
And so uh it just happened to be at a time in, in the marketing in the,
in the overall distribution of, of cotton as a, as a global commodity. Um
It was just shifting from a domestically grown, domestically used
commodity to global. And so for so for the first time, for an example,
you'd see a massive hailstorm go through, you know, the cotton belt and
the market didn't budge and it was, it was, it was earth shaking. You know
, it was, everybody in the room was looking at was looking at the reports
of, of potential damage to the cotton crop and, and yet there was no
movement in the cotton market in the futures market. And what in the world
was going on unbeknownst to us growers. Um
There were reports that other countries had now had the ability and wanted
to move cotton into the world market. So the world, the world marketers,
the uh the world buyers of cotton took that into consideration. And so
market didn't budge the in the inventory was now out there and the United
States inventory of cotton was just one of many. And so at that point, you
start to realize, you know, my, my immediate reaction was to look at the
price of cotton that day and just go wait, that means we're going to have
to grow cotton for this amount. That's not gonna happen. So then you
realize as a, as a commodity grower that, that now you're dealing, now
you're farming the government and now you, you play to the whims of the
not to say that it's the whims, but that's, I'm sorry, that's the first
word that comes to mind of the, of the federal government. And so trying
to figure out what you're doing every, every other year or at the very
least every five years. Extremely challenging. Um, and not only that, I'm
a farmer. I like growing crops. I don't, I don't want to have to farm the
government. That's not what I do. That's not what I get enjoyment out of.
So that changed how I looked at farming. It changed how I look at
marketing. So I wanted to get into crops that could stand on their own
where I could put a budget together. And, and so by the way, you ought to
know that, that around here we use a lot of sports analogies. So we use
the, you know, if so if you're batting in baseball and you step up and,
you know, there's an average of a certain number of certainly strikeouts
walks, um, singles, doubles, triples, home runs, you know, if you're
putting a budget together and it requires you to hit a, you know, a double
or a triple every time you step up to the plate. Man, that's, those are
tough odds, like almost impossible. But yet that's what we're looking at.
So then who's, how do, how do we make money without the government
stepping in and saying, oh, hey, let me carry that ball for you and throw
it a little further into the field. Um, oh, that was tough. So I wanted to
get into something that would allow me to be profitable. And so I really
wanted to get into more of the fresh fruits and vegetables and, and so, uh
, we started to do that. And it was right about that time when we first
started into we as a family, my, my dad, my brothers, we all farmed
together at one point um in my dad's company, agricultural enterprises.
And uh and so it was, it was actually right around that time when we
realized that
that um we had very different, we being myself and, and, and my brothers
and my dad just had different ways of farming and, and what was important
to me was maybe not as important to them. And so, you know, with
everybody's blessing, Kathleen and I kind of broke off and did our own
thing. And so it was sort of a slow, it was a transition that, that took
place in the mid eighties and, and, uh, and finished in the late eighties
around 88. And so we started, we started our own farm and, um, and
sometimes it's just better to be lucky than good. And we grew mostly
vegetables, still growing a little bit of cotton at that time. Um, but we
did, we did well enough to keep going and there were some extremely
slim years. Um, there were times when, when I'd go home and Kathleen and I
would grab the boys and we'd, we'd look at them and just say, listen, guys
,
here's a wrap. Um, and to look at really young faces, really young faces
and to try and, and let them know that you know, listen, it's not all lost
or anything, but we're gonna have to be tight here, you know. So when your
buddies come and they've got a new skateboard and, and you're not able to
get one here's what's up, here's what's going on. Um, so they learned,
they learned early on, you know, you, you save when you can and, and when
you, and when you, when you'd hit a home run and you'd, and you'd have a
good melon crop or broccoli or whatever potato, whatever that crop might
have been. Um, you save it and you wait and, and you hold on to that and
you learn to be conservative. And I think, I think learning to farm on my
own during a period when central Arizona agriculture was not really
swinging from the trees so much. Um, it was very difficult. It was, it was
, you had to, if you could make it at that time, I think you can make it
anywhere. And, uh, and so we learned to farm in those in those times. And
so you really learned to save and budget and, um, be conservative,
fiscally conservative. So, anyway, so now I've been taken off, what was
the original question? I'm gonna follow up with a, a question about the
decision to, um, split up. I mean, what was that impact for you? I mean,
personally, it must have been one of the hardest decisions you made and
how did you make that decision. It was really interesting. Um I'm kind of
a systems guy. Um, we also joke about a fairly, fairly healthy level of,
of O CD in my family with me. And uh so there's a lot of funny jokes about
that and, uh and I, and I wear that badge um somewhat proudly. So I'm, I'm
good with it at the very least I'm good with it. Um
Because, because at the end of the day when you're in agriculture, I don't
know that having a healthy amount of O CD doesn't help you, you know, pay
attention to detail um to create systems of efficiency that, that help
everybody, you know, work together more efficiently and, and so that you
don't, so that you can work smarter and not harder because that at the end
of the day, I think is what has helped us kind of move forward a little
bit. Um
So the decision was, was Kathleen and I went to have dinner with my folks
and, and I wanted, I had an, I had an idea and uh so I, I wanted to meet
with my dad with my, with my parents in general knowing that knowing that
there was a chance that, that this could go, you know, one or two ways.
And uh one was that he would, he would like the idea and move forward with.
And the idea was, um here's, here's how we can organize this farm. So
that the brothers aren't overlapping and yet not dropping the ball or
creating gaps in between us. So here's how we can organize this so that
here's how the literally an organizational chart flow of personnel flow of
equipment, you know, and, and, you know, I, I thought, I thought I had
laid out pretty well, you know, and actually my dad did too. He looked at
it. He said, yeah, that'd be great if I wanted to do that. But he just
looked at me. He just looked at both Kathleen and I, he said, I have never
wanted you guys to farm together, never wanted to. That would be the worst
idea in the world for you guys to farm together because unbeknownst to me
, he and his family had tried that and it didn't work very well and he
didn't want to create that situation that threw us all into the, into the
same bucket and, and, um, and, and tight work environment. He just thought
I'm not gonna do that to you. So he just said, I just have always wanted
to create an opportunity for you guys to get in here, learn and then go
and do your own thing. And so I'm looking at him going, I guess it's time
for me to go do my own thing and, and, um, you know, and Kathleen kind of
grabs my leg and my mom starts crying and, and, um, and I just said, great
, um, I didn't know that, you know, we, we, we might have, we might have
started a transition a little bit earlier so that it wouldn't be just, hey
, tomorrow, I'm gonna go out and start my own thing now. But, um, no, it
was, it was great with their blessing. Um, Kathleen and I, you know,
literally jumped off the cliff together holding, you know, each other's
hand. And, um, and we joke about those, not that moment per se, but I have
to say after that, you know, uh holidays and dinners with my family became
a lot more fun because we weren't, you know, grinding about the farm and
what was supposed to have happened that day or, or did happen or whatever.
And so it became less about work and all about family stuff again. So it
was good. It was great. And, uh, and Kathleen, I still joke about the
amount of work because her thought was, you know, that was a big place and
, and when I got out of school, you know, I, I thought I'd be able to come
in and just turn the agricultural world on its ear, you know, because, hey
, I know how to do this stuff, right. And, um, I guess it's good to have
self-confidence, but still that was ridiculous thinking because I get out
of school and, and I could have worked, you know, I could have worked 30
hours a day and, and that farm could have absorbed every last minute of
that. And uh as I, as I later found out, um but when I started, when
Kathleen and I were doing our own, you, you work just as hard, if not
harder, but it feels different. It's just different when it's your place.
And I think any business owner, any entrepreneur would feel that uh not
that I'm an entrepreneur, any, any individual business owner would feel
that when you, when it's your place, there's just a different feeling
about it. It just feels right, it feels good. And, and so you know that
every last minute that you put into it is benefiting you and your family
and, and the people that you get to work with hopefully. And so it's just
got, I don't know, just you don't get tired, you get physically tired, but
you don't get emotionally tired. So you mentioned that you weren't an
entrepreneur, however, you have to manage the business, you have to market
, you have to produce. So in some ways you are an entrepreneur and in your
own, right? Oh, I know, I joke about that. So just, you know, I just, I
just, I jokingly go with the motto of, you know, it's better to be lucky
than good. And uh and I just think that I've been incredibly lucky in my
life. Do you think your business skills helped you manage and kind of
transform uh the farm itself? I, I wouldn't really call myself, a, a great
businessman. Um
I think there's a certain amount of logic that goes forward. There's a
certain amount of
remember the respect for people,
having a certain level of respect for the people that you work with will
get you. Mm
You can create good teams and we have really good teams still do. So let's
talk a little bit about choosing to start on your own. The crops you chose
, why you chose them. So we chose to. So we chose to go into fresh fruits
and vegetables as much as possible. Although ironically enough at the time
that we broke away, um financing
the financial, the financial institutions were, were set up and organized.
So be so much around the guarantee that the government throws, you know,
that safety net underneath the commodities that you could borrow money all
day long to grow, grow to go grow cotton and the, the whole, remember the
Central Arizona, you know, grouping all of that. And yet I'd look at the
bankers and say I can show you, I can show you how in a budget that won't
work. And yet you're telling me that you won't lend me money on vegetables
, but you'll lend me money for the cotton. And um it was really
interesting to go through that, that cycle with, with the lenders. And so
um
fascinating to me to this day that they would have locked me into a
business that I think would have gone out of business by now. Um, that,
that model, you know, wouldn't have worked. And yet here I was looking at
them saying, let me show you something that's newer and, and it's being
done, you know, it's not like it's, it's new, you know, it was new to
these lenders, I think. But, uh, but let me show you something that really
does have a chance for succeeding. And so we, we got one lender that, that
believed in us. And so we move forward and you know, it, it, it worked.
And so we went into uh melons during the summer, um potatoes, broccoli,
cabbage. So, so literally, people always ask me, let me share this with
you. People always ask me, what do you grow? What do you grow? What do you
, what do you want to grow? And I always look at everybody and just say,
you know, I can tell you today what we grow. But if you ask me tomorrow
and maybe there is something different, they're like, what do you mean?
You know, don't you grow the same thing all the time? And I looked at him
and said, I'm gonna grow whatever I can sell. And that may be totally
different tomorrow because I can tell you what I'm doing today is totally
different than what I was doing not too long ago. And, and so I hope
that we are sharp enough that we are observant enough to identify the
opportunities and take advantage of the opportunities or work our way
through the challenges that then creates opportunities, but to be able to
recognize opportunities, um I think that's, that's significant, you know,
and, and so we went with, at the time, what we thought would make money.
And so it was fresh fruits and vegetables and a little bit of cotton. And
then we slowly did away with the cotton. It just didn't work in our
rotation as far as um the agronomic and, and everything about it. So we
went to fresh fruits and vegetables. About that time, we opened the farm
to the public and we were, we had the shoot, Kathleen had, I wanna say
25,000 students a year coming through the farm on educational tours, we
had festivals um parties.
Basically, the the farm became a way to share the farm with everybody.
There were so many people that didn't still to this day don't have an idea
as to what farming is about. And, and I by that, let me the example I give
is the, is always the uh the UE garden. So we thought uh it, so let me
tell you, we, we thought we were because uh because our are open to the
public portion of the farm is, is kind of what we're known for, even
though it had to close in 2002 people told me about it. And it was, it was
so fun. God, you talk about the great people, um, wonderful people that,
that we had the opportunity to work with. Anyway, Kathleen built an
absolutely phenomenal program. Um, she took a corner of the farm and
turned it into a and educational and entertaining place. And I say those
two things because we found out that if you can make something
entertaining and educational at the same time, it has a much greater value
to people
and, and a farm can be that like that. There are so as an example, the,
the um the, the pick your own because we thought we were selling
vegetables. When we opened the farm in the pub, we thought we were selling
fresh fruits and vegetables. They're right in your backyard. They're gonna
taste better, they're fresh. That's why you should come and buy your, your
fresh fruits and vegetables from us could not have been more wrong. We're
here. We are in Arizona where basically 90% of, you know, all of the
greens from, for the country come out of here during the winter. We get
pretty fresh stuff here. So it's not that big of a deal and you know, the
fruits during the summer, it's just not that big of a deal because we're
in Arizona. Um But we just thought that people wanted that um because
people always said, well, God, we'd love to buy your stuff. Why can't we
find your stuff? And so we thought we were selling vegetables. Um So we
had this amazingly beautiful, I mean, literally people would come in and
take pictures of the wet rack that we had with all the fresh fruits and
vegetables that we were growing. And, and because it's yours, right? You
and because you have one person in the market and that's their job is to
make sure that that thing is, is full all the time. And I mean, it was
beautiful. It was, it was literally take a picture of it, you know, hang
it up on the wall kind of thing. Um But people would walk in mom and dad
and 2.1 kids and they'd walk in and, and go, oh you harvested the carrots.
We, we thought we'd be able to dig our own like, so, you know, I'm, I'm
dumb but I'm not an idiot. So after a while, we're kind of looking at each
other going, they don't, they don't want us to pick this stuff for them.
All of this right here can go away. We're, we're literally just the
demonstration gardens. We, we've got this other place right out here.
We'll just, we'll let them go pick it. And so we had the, we had the UEC
uh gardens and it never ceases to amaze me to this day how little people
know about what they buy in the store every day. Um So the example I
always use is uh broccoli. So we had you plant a little bit of broccoli
each week. So that when it, when it's time to harvest, it doesn't all come
on at the same time, you, everybody keeps coming out each week. Right. So
you have to have the same amount of broccoli each week. So, everything
that we grew out there was done that way. So, right next to each other,
you had these little, these small planted areas where here's this week's
harvest and then next week's is right next to it. And next to that is the
following week and so far, so, so on this, on this one area, uh you have
these, these beautiful broccoli florets,
continuation of an interview with Mr Duncan. So we were talking a little
bit about um the, the farm becoming um you were using the role of
education and um recreation, you said, yeah, you were telling that story
and I was telling you a story about the broccoli. So we actually had to
get, get to the point where um it's funny, you know, so we had the, so we
had these areas where there's absolutely beautiful, you know, six inch
beautiful florets on, on the broccoli and, and uh but people kept
wandering off into the wrong areas, you know, and, and uh so when, you
know, you get kids and, and even dogs and things like that running, you
know, there's a lot of destruction and they just don't get that. Um So we
courted them up this, this area, not ready yet. So we had, we put arrows,
you know, pick here, not there, pick here. And, um, and so it was really
funny. And so once again, we use broccoli as the example, but, um,
people didn't know what broccoli florets were.
So instead of instead of harvesting the ripe, ready, ripe broccoli, they
would look across the, the, the little yellow taped off area, disregard
the pick here arrow. And, um, and go into where the broccoli was an inch
in diameter, an inch and a half in diameter. And they would, they would go
ahead, you know, because
we just had, we just told people to go out to the U pick, right? And you
could, you could fill your bag and they'd pick half a bag full of broccoli
at one inch in diameter, which had you allowed that to, to get to full
size would have been half a pickup load, you know. And, uh, and so they
just wiped out that, you know, what would have been maybe three or 43
weeks later. Now we have nothing. And so we, we had to try and find a way
to educate people. And so we actually had to have people out there to show
people how to harvest things. Um And it was at a, at a foundational level
, kind of sad that people didn't know that. You know, we jokingly people,
we all in the food industry kind of jokingly refer to broccoli as trees.
But some people hear that and they think that broccoli comes from trees
and they're looking around for the broccoli trees. We've actually had
people ask for broccoli trees. And so, you know, we can, we can laugh
about it, but at some level, it is kind of sad. Um, but that's sort of why
the, you know, the farm, the farm opened to the public out of frustration.
Too, strangely, frustration with
going to my, my wife. Um I already tell you how wonderful she is. Yeah.
Anyway, you can tell us again though. Um she um she was in early
childhood education, her job with the state of Arizona um through des and
DDDDDD de development. Anyway, early childhood education, she, her job was
in the uh in Maricopa County to find programs for Children 0 to 5 who were
challenged. And so,
um we went two different directions in the morning. And so at one point in
time, we decided that, uh and this was a really long story but, but
literally just consolidated into one sentence where we decided to blend
our careers. And so
she created the educational programs on the fireman and it was to have to
have someone so talented um and so passionate about what she does create
something at a farm that isn't, that isn't just educational but
entertaining and safe because she redesigned the corner of the farm. I
mean, literally if you think about running along a fence and rubbing your
hand along the fence, you know, all the fences had to be sanded so that
you couldn't get a sliver something as simple as that. She literally would
look at everything and because of where she came from, where kids got hurt
in the strangest ways that she saw the worst case scenario in every
situation and we would correct it when we could. Um, no, we would correct
it. Um,
so, so anyway, um, when we would go to lunches dinners with her friends
and they found out that I was a farmer, it was a mixed reaction. Some
people's reaction was really one of, oh, you're the guys who are poisoning
us with the pesticides. And so I got to the point where, you know, I just
sort of absorb that and then look back at them and say, so you could
continue to believe that which is fine or would you really like to know?
And, and usually that person would say I'd love to know, um, and some, and
, and if they hesitated, someone else at the table usually said, I don't
know about her or him, but I'd love to hear. I'm curious, what is the real
story about what's going on? Um, so we would talk about farming and, and I
just say, you know, it's just amazing to me how little people know about
farming. And so I get it, you're, you're afraid of what you don't know
about because I'm afraid of things that I don't know about. Or at least
I'm curious and wonder about them. And so I used to go and give talks to
labor groups, to regulatory agencies to, for some reason, people invited
me to talk to them. And so I remember being at, at one meeting and saying
, come out to the farm, just come out and, and you know, where regulatory
agencies will call in advance and kind of warn you that they're coming out
, don't call me, just come out, just show up, just show up that day. Call
me and say, hey, are you busy in an hour? We'd like to come and see the
farm. I'll show you around if we're doing something wrong, we'll correct
it. And I'm sure that we're doing a few things wrong. But I think on the
other hand, you're going to be amazed at what we are doing. And so
people call me and they said, were you serious about that offer? And I
said, yeah, we'd like to come out. I said, when will you be here? And they
said you're serious about literally just have, you don't need, you don't
need to go and like have a few days to hide things. And I said, I don't
even know what I would hide. Um, come out if you've got time this morning
, come on out, I'll, I'll take the time and if you guys don't mind
checking fields with me. I'll show you around what we do. Let's have an
open discussion, ask me what you want to know and you can only meet so
many people, you know, one truckload at a time. Right. So we opened the
farm to the public. We wanted to educate people at so many levels. You
know, Children about nutrition, even our own family, about nutrition and
where to get things and how to harvest them and how to, you know, just
where they're grown. Yeah, you, this broccoli right here is probably, you
know, that truck. So kids got to go out in the field and literally harvest
broccoli, which doesn't require a knife, which is why we chose broccoli.
They could just snap it off with their little hands and put it in their
bag and, and what is so cool is that these kids
came out with a preloaded concept of, of what they knew about? I mean,
they, they knew what they knew about broccoli. They didn't like broccoli.
In fact, I could always tell when the, when the tour guide would tell the
kids they're going out to, to uh get broccoli because you'd hear the bus
going by and you'd hear this e you know, as the bus is driving by and
every child was, was reacting to the uh the information that, oh God,
we're going to get broccoli. Um and then they get out there and they start
picking their broccoli and they eat broccoli in the field and it's, wow,
it's actually, it's actually really good. Um, so they're eating broccoli
and they, and then they pick the broccoli and they take it home and now
it's their broccoli. So they go home and they, it's like the first little
fish you caught right when you were a kid. And that thing could have been
four inches long and you take it home and you want mom to prepare it that
night for dinner because it's your fish. Well, they had their broccoli so
they take it home and they want mom or dad to, to prepare it that night
because it's their broccoli. And we started getting letters from parents
and teachers who were saying, wow, you just converted my kid. Now, now we
go to the store and, and every broccoli there has got to be yours. So
we're gonna buy your broccoli and we're taking it home and we're probably
cooking it that night because they've been to that field and picked the
broccoli probably in the plant right next to the one that we're about to
eat now. But they had a whole different association with not just, not
just the farm but their food and you bridge that gap. And for us that was
, that was really rewarding, hugely rewarding.
And we hear from people to this day we've been closed for over 10 years.
You know, it's 2015. Now, So we've been closed for 13 years and we still
hear from people who say I loved your farm. I used to go to your farm when
I was a kid and I love that place. I loved going there more than
Disneyland. It's like, ok, wait, wait, you're kind all right. But
to, to think that we contributed in some way to, you know, healthy
lifestyles. Fantastic. Fantastic. Tell me about bridging that gap from,
from farm to table with the Children and why that's so important even to
this day, it was important to go to the field, you know, not just have a
table where the broccoli was sitting, we went out to the field and they
saw they would get literally in an area where we had already harvested. Um
which actually, ironically enough kind of opened things up a little bit so
that it was easier for the kids to walk through there. Um And we could see
them all the time, you know, back to safety, right? Um We could see them
at all times and, and they could see the harvest taking place. So they saw
the harvester, they saw the tractors, they saw the, they saw the, the
broccoli being cut trimmed, placed on a table and, and in the ta the table
that's on the harvester that, that they saw people packing that broccoli
and, and putting it in a box and the box sliding out on a conveyor to the
trailer where it was then stacked on a pallet and the trailer driving out
to the end of the field and leaving the field and, and we kind of help
them, you know, in their imaginations bridge that gap of, ok, that trailer
, now that trailer is going to another trailer that looks very similar to
that and that broccoli is going to the stores downtown and a percentage of
it was going right downtown Phoenix. It wasn't in our name, but um it was
going there and those kids bridge that all the way through and it was, and
it was other things, other aspects of the farm too because to me, and it
was really interesting because while you think that all of our educational
tours were uh were given to um
to people who are basically uh 4 ft and under, they weren't. Um It was
fantastic. We had
postgraduate programs from Thunderbird come out from a su from U of A from
high schools because because on a farm, biology chemistry, this is where
the rubber hits the road man out here. You want to talk about any of that
stuff? I'll tell you how your biology class here's how it's working here
every day. Um And then to make it age appropriate. So back to the four and
unders 4 ft and unders, um we had a uh we had an earthworm tunnel that we
created with a grant um from Arizona Department of Environmental quality
and it was fantastic. Um So, in essence, you, you have to use your
imagination, but you're basically walking underneath this cement structure
that this sort of. So we, we, we took some large trees and, you know, put
these large trees and bent them over this, what, what basically was an
upside down pool or, or what today would look like, Fred Flintstone's
house. Um But it was so as the tour guides were going into this thing, you
could enter it and, and what you saw were soil profiles hanging on the
wall that would, that would, you would describe kind of, here's a, here's
a kind of a classic Arizona soil profile which would show you the
different colors and textures of the different layers of the soil as
they've been um laid out, you know, 5 to 6 ft deep and then compare that
to one out of the Midwest or something like that. And uh and then to have
the earthworms that when you come around and you get inside, so you're
under the soil. Um You could see the earth worms and we would take and
grind our, our office paper weight waste and we dump it into the uh to the
earth worms, add a little, add a little water to it. Um Throw a little
more compost on top and man, you'd, you'd see it just start moving, you
know, and, and so the kids got to see the earthworms actually with their
earthworm tunnels and, and sometimes, you know, we, if the timing was
right, we could throw the uh throw the paper in there and they'd, they'd
start eating it. So they saw this activity under the soil and, and then
you, you know, we turn around and we'd show them. So we had uh the Phoenix
Zoo helped us put it together. Phoenix Zoo and the Arizona Desert
Desert Museum uh outside of Tucson. They all helped us put this, this um
place together, this very special place together and, and they all played
a special role. In fact,
if this looks like a real snake, the guys at the Arizona Desert Museum
built that for me, made that for me and, and so snakes use burrows under
the ground along with um toads. So, I mean, you, you put that guy out
there and looks fairly real, looks extremely real. In fact, I've had
people freak out when they see the snake on my desk. Um
So, so I forget about these things. Um But um so, you know, there was,
there was this, this example, these different examples of tunnels and, and
holes and, and what essentially what the soil looks like if you had the
opportunity to be underground. And so at, at this level, at this level
being, you know, inches below the soil surface and then, oh by the way,
there are roots that were coming down through, through the surface because
what we were telling the kids to use their imagination and that imagine a
huge tree has blown over in a massive storm and this root ball has pulled
up. And then in that storm, the water kind of raced underneath and created
this little area where you could get in underneath the soil and see what
it looks like. And you and kids are fantastic with their imagination so
they could see this. They were there in their minds, they're under the
soil, looking at the earthworms, digesting the, the paper waste and
looking at these, these very lifelike figurines and where they would be in
the soil and the roots coming down through the, the top of the ceiling and
everything. And so they kind of ducking as they move through and, and it's
kind of an eerie place and, and so there's flashlights where you can, we
could, you know, shine the light because there's no light in there except
for the light that the, the tour guide had. And so they could, they could
identify these, these areas specific to, you know, what they wanted the
kids to be focusing on. And so at the end of the tour, basically, kids got
to understand that the soil is a living medium and that there are as many
microorganisms living in, in literally one small clot of soil that had
that there are people on the earth. So they would, they would kind of say
so when you go out and you, you look at that, that clod, there's living
organisms in there as many as people are on the earth. In fact, animals
and humans on the earth. And they, and you see these kids walking out and
looking at a dirt clod, picking it up and instead of throwing it, they
place it gingerly back down on the ground because they got it, they get it
, the soil is a living medium that, that we require. We live with all of
these, these organisms and they help us and we help them and, and that's
where you sort of bridge that, that really nerdy science and to the farm
again. But that's also how the rubber hits the road as far as the science
that we learn in grade school, high school. And then certainly the
application of that science into a business format. How does that look to
post postgraduate people who are interested in that as well? So we had
everybody of all ages coming out and all levels of education coming out
and it was, it was fantastic. Tell me um kind of the most memorable moment
you had when, when the kids, like you said, they got it, especially the 4
ft and under when they got it after they've been on the farm for sometimes
it's the most simplistic. Um I'll never forget being on the yard and um
seeing a bus arrived and the little kids came piling out and they ran
right over to the petting zoo, which we had a petting zoo. Um, because a
vegetable farm is not allowed to exist without, you can't have a farm
without animals. So, basically everybody is. So we had a vegetable farm.
We started inviting people out to the vegetable farm and they're like,
where are the animals? Well, it's a vegetable farm. So, hm,
do we have a problem here? And basically the teachers are saying, yeah, we
kind of expected a farm. It's like, well, this feels like a farm to us.
But, um, no, we really did realize that everybody's perception of the farm
is basically the front cover of Charlotte's web where, you know, yeah,
you've got the, the spider web in the corner, you know, the entrance to
the barn, but you've got the horse leaning over the freshly painted fence
, talking to the goose and you see the pig in the background, you've got
the red barn, the white si, you know, the silo and the, and the house with
the white picket fence. And,
and so we sort of needed to meet people's expectations along those lines.
And so we did and there's, and so we're gonna get into another story at
some point in time about that petting zoo. Um, but, but when I saw the
kids come running over, you know, I, I just thought, well, you know, I got
a, I got a little bit of time so I went over and I was leaning up against
the, the fence and the kids came, the kids came running up and, and the
first teacher who rightfully kind of jogged across, you know, to be there
, you know, where the kids were so that they don't, you know, get in
trouble or whatever. Um, so the teacher and I are leaning across the fence
, you know, I introduced myself and we're looking at the animals and, and
a little girl came running up and, and she said, oh, teacher, look at the
cow as she's looking at a little potbelly pig.
And,
and I looked at the teacher and she said, there's a reason why we're here
. I was like, wow, that, that, uh, ok, I didn't, I didn't realize we had
that much of a gap here. Um, that one kind of hit me like a ton of bricks.
And so you asked me, what was my reaction? I'll never forget that one. I
said, ok, I get it. I get it. This is, wow, this is education at a
foundational level, isn't it? And, uh, she said, it absolutely is. And
that's why we love coming here every year. She said, so I think this is,
this is my, I can't remember what year and, and she just said, this is
fantastic. I said, I'll be sure to tell Kathleen that. Thank you and Kelly
because we had, you know, Kelly Maguire who, um, became our, our tour
guide the head of our tour guide. So we ended up with, I wanna say, like
10 part time people who were leading tours. Just incredible people, people
who were retired and spending their winters out here who just enjoyed kids.
And so they'd come out and they teach and they were just the most awesome
people that we got to know. And, um, when you get to work with people who
are doing things because it's just fun to them. It's amazing. You know,
all the ideas that come out and, and just the wonderful programs that you
can create. So anyway, I digress, please. So tell me about the decision to
close and how hard that was and how sad it was for your, for your family.
Oh, it was, um,
I mean, it's tough to go back to that time but um, we had to close because
of activities at Luke Air Force Base, um, where it was deemed
inappropriate if not unsafe and inappropriate for large numbers of
students to be underneath the what is now referred to as the southern
departure corridor after, after 911, after 911, um,
the Air Force started, started training in earnest and by that, I mean,
they started practicing with more live ammunition and since there had been
so much development at the other end of the runway to the northeast, all
live ammunition sorties were going to take off to the southwest at all
times of the day. And regardless of whether there was a 10 mile per hour
tailwind or not, um, because the reason that they always took off to the
northeast in the morning was to take off into a headwind. So we didn't
have the noise, we didn't have the activity. And so when they turned
around and started coming over the top of us, you know, we started asking
and, and then they found out, you know, who we were, what we were. And
anyway, regardless of the details of it, um it was deemed unsafe to have
that many students, you know, we had at any given time, 6 to 900 students
on the grounds at any, at any one time. And so literally larger than some
schools. And so, uh it was, it was best that we not be there. And so we
had to close, it was an incredibly difficult decision, um emotional for
everybody. It was um it was at a time also when, when we had worked so
hard for so many years to actually make it be sustainable where it was
economically sustainable for the first time, literally after 10 years. And
,
and so for everyone's ideas and programs and hard work to, to never feel
that fulfillment of the ultimate of, of success. They were, they were
cheated out of that. They were cheated out of the not us. The they were
cheated out of the job that they loved going to every morning. It was a
blast, you know. It was, it was really fun. It still is. I mean, I love
farming but that was, that was a lot of fun, you know, and we still hear
about it today. So it was, it was difficult. It was difficult. It was the
right thing. I'll never, I'll never question that. It was the right thing
to do. Um, but it was difficult. You're right. Do you miss the kids? Yeah.
Yeah. Um, I miss the kids. I miss the people. I miss the programs. I miss
, uh, I miss the Nunes. I miss being that close to,
to the people who could let you know what you, you know, when you, when
you get that close, when you're, when you're able to sell vegetables and
to people, they tell you what they like and they don't like. And so you're
, you're never closer. People that go to farmers markets are never closer
. I think, I think retailers would love to know what people that, that,
that sell at farmers markets, what growers know about what people want,
what they're willing to buy, um, what they're willing to pay for and, and
I, I, they may, they may want to or they may not want people to know, you
know, why things are priced certain ways, you know, because that can be,
that can be too much information shall we say? But, uh I loved, I love the
feedback, the direct feedback that we got, we learned so much about what
people, what people need and what they want. And I have to tell you that
I'd prefer to sell things that people really want versus what they need
because someone will pay anything for what they want and try to try to
work you down to the lowest price on things that they absolutely need
because they got to have it. So, so we just, and it's just fun, you know,
to sell to work with people and at a level where they want something and
are having fun with it. So let's talk about um the move to go to Organic
Certified Organic. Oh, yeah, yeah. So, um remember the whole thing about,
you know, the, the motto of better to be lucky than good. So we got into
organics pretty much by accident. Um,
we got into composting pretty much by accident. Um, and one leads to the
other. So we opened the farm to the public and,
and while it was going to be about educational tours and that's it when,
when parents and chaperones and teachers and bus drivers and everybody
started coming out, they're looking at this place going, I wanna have, I
wanna have my child's birthday party here or we want to do this here, you
know, could you have a, you know, a festival would be great. So we, we
erroneously started down the road of trying to be all things to all people
and so we did have, you know, festivals, we had birthday parties and, and
so, so we'll just end it at festivals. But with the first festival, we,
you know, we throw this festival and, and we have no seating anywhere. So
we talked about what we could do and we, we took a bunch of straw bales
from barley that we had on the farm and, and uh we took those straw bales
and we made um seating around um all over the place. So we, we created a
little stage. Um We had seating for the, for the entertainment. We had um
seeing around trees, we created with the, with the bales, we created a
little, a little maze for the kids to, to go through. It was really neat.
And obviously if they got stuck, they could just climb out. So that was
easy. Yeah. And for Kathleen, that was great because you could always see
the kids. Um, they were never out of sight. So, uh so we have these bales
and it, it just so happened that it was a, a very wet winter. And so we
have these straw bales that are, that are out and after the festival. Um
and I can't remember which festival it was or what or what the reason was.
But anyway, um we decided just leave the bales out there, you know, why
not? We'll use them. They're seating now for, you know, the different
school groups that are coming out. Um, but then it rained and rained some
more and rained a little bit after that. And the bales got so wet, um,
kind of like a, a really large sponge that there's a certain amount of,
there's, and you should know there's a certain amount of seed that gets
packed into the straw bales from the barley. So that seed started to grow
out the top.
It germinated with the moisture from the rains and it literally would rain
like every four days. And so it was perfect germinating moisture. The
barley grew up got to be four or five inches tall. And Kathleen, you know
, yeah, I come into the office she's saying, hey, um, I think he could do
something about those bales, you know, that we can't really use them very
much right now because they're growing. And, uh, so I'm looking at the
bell going. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that happens. She's going, yeah, I didn't know
that was gonna happen. Um, so what I'm looking at going, why do you know
it's gonna rain? And, and so, uh, so we went out and just flipped them
over and, and they dried out on the bottom and, and everything was fine
until it rained again. Uh, which was, I don't know, about 56 days later,
it just kept raining. So sure enough, what happens the bottom now starts
to grow because, you know, it gets warm, sunny in between the rains a
little bit. And so, you know, it gets a little bit of, it's got the
moisture, it's gets, getting some warmth, it germinates as well. So now
we've got the stuff that we rotated down below, it's moist, the stuff
that's up on top and, and the stuff that's down below and, and the bale
itself are kind of starting to rot. So things are starting to get a little
ripe around there. And so we have that, we have that classic conversation
of honey. Is there any way? I was like, yeah, yeah, we got to get rid of
this because this thing smells bad even in the office. So we went and I
mean, each of these things now these bales weigh like three or £400 a
piece. I mean, they weigh a ton. Um And so we, we haul them all out and
back and we just, we throw them into this pile. And recently we've, uh we
have found out that, uh, you know, our vegetable farm was supposed to have
um animals on it. So we started the petting zoo. So we clean the petting
zoo every morning. And so we had this place out and back where this pile
of stuff from the petting zoo was. And so we just threw the, you know, the
, the wet soggy bales on top of that, pulled all the string and, and wire
out of it and just stack it up on that. And um, you know, and then we just
kept throwing every morning, we just keep throwing the, uh, the manure
from and anything we cleaned out of the, out of the petting zoo on that
and then it rained again. And, and then Kathleen came to me and said, hey
, you know, um, you know where we put that new garden in, we're gonna
bring the kids in from this, this direction and then take this other place.
So can you move that pile just to, it doesn't have to move very far. Can
you just move it a little bit, you know, one way? And so, um
I didn't expect that
today is August 7th 2015. My name is Christina VM. Interviewing for
Arizona State University Dinner 2440. I'm asking you to um interviewing Mr
Arnette Duncan, Arnett Arnette Duncan. Can you spell, can you spell your
first name? Sure. It's a Rno tt. Ok. And Duncan is D UN can thank you. And
then could I ask you to say your title as well? And the organization that
you work for for? So I work with a lot of really need people at Duncan
family farms. Um Just west of Phoenix, about 30 miles west of Phoenix in
Goodyear, Arizona. Ok. So let's talk a little bit about um your background
and how your family got into farming. Ok. Um So my biological father
passed when I was four or five. My mom remarried when I was eight or nine.
And, um, so my dad, since I was young enough, um, you know, I just, my
stepfather is my dad. So he is the third generation farmer, his farm, his
family rather actually homesteaded in Arizona, the southwest corner of
what is now Seventh Avenue and Southern in South Phoenix. And so I grew up
as a little kid going out to the farm, you know, all summers, weekends,
holidays, really, any time that we were needed and we were pretty much
needed all the time. And uh and I just loved it. Um, you know, back then
the farm was that classic Central Arizona cotton, you know, forages,
cereal grains and, you know, you know, an, an, an odd uh an odd little, uh
you know, seed variety here or there that you would try. But for the most
part, um we didn't do any vegetables. My dad, my dad did a few watermelons
here and there because that's kind of what he grew up doing when he was in
high school. Um, anyway, that he, uh that was our, that was our, our first
foray into uh vegetables, fresh fruits and vegetables was watermelons. And
so my dad came by that, you know, years ago when he was in high school. Um
I was gonna say when all the uh when all the men went off to war in World
War Two, there weren't enough guys around to harvest. And so he and his
high he organized his high school, but he's mostly football players and
they went and harvested watermelons. And so that just stuck with my dad.
And so shoot, he, he grew melons for decades.
So tell me what it was about the farm and going out and working it and,
and what you enjoyed it. But also, you know, kind of, you were young and
it was hot and it's hard. Can you explain, kind of, you know, it's funny
looking back, you know, when, if you look at what we did today, looking
back, given today's regulations, um, present age, uh, obviously, you know
, now that I'm, now that I'm in my late fifties, you know, I look back on
what we did and just am amazed at some of the things that we did and, and
, uh, you just learned so much from being out on the farm, um, frequently
on your, on your own with, you know, you with your, I was with my brother
and my cousins. We're all about the same age. And, um, you know, our, our
first jobs on the farm were, were basically
cutting weeds, digging ditches, you know, the, the romantic part of
farming. And, uh, and it was just, you know, but lunchtime and, and of
course, and of course, any of our breaks that we would take, we weren't,
we probably weren't tired, we just wanted to play. Um, but we took breaks
and sometimes, you know, if, if the lizard got away from you. It would
take a lot longer to take that break than, than another one. But, um, we
had fun out on the farm. We learned to drive, um, we learned to drive
tractors first. We learned to drive tractors before, before we could reach
the pedals and it wasn't as necessary to reach the pedals. My dad would
just move the seat back on the tractor. There was a hand clutch on the
John Deere tractor and, and so you could kind of scoot around to hit the
brake on the left side while you were working the clutch with your hand.
And, and so you, you learn to do things and, and become, I guess, self
self supporting you, I guess it's a pretty good place to just learn how to
do things and, and in and in doing that things that we thought were just
average every day friends that we went to school with because I grew up in
downtown Phoenix. Um, you know, when I was a young guy, we were, we lived
on about 32nd street in Oak. And so we just drove out to the farm. Um, but
, uh, yeah, it was just, it was just fun growing up on the farm, the
things that the things that we did that our buddies downtown, you know,
just were amazed that we could drive, you know, and I started driving cars
and trucks when I was a little guy too, you know, and really, um, trying
to get, you know, to the pedals and everything. There were, there were
times when, you know, the old, uh, the old thick telephone book came into
play frequently. So, anyway, it was fun. It was fun. And then on top of
just being a kid out on a farm without a lot of rules there, there was,
there was this attraction to the outdoors. Um, and I couldn't put my
finger on it. Even when I got into college, I didn't know. Then my first
year in college, um, you know, I was, I was always attracted to the
natural sciences in, in high school. Um I didn't have that opportunity to
do the 4h or F fa I went to, I went to Catholic grade schools. I went to
brophy prep. Um So, you know, when, when buddies in uh in agriculture
would say, hey, remember an F fa when we did this? And, yeah. No, I don't.
Um, but I always enjoyed the natural sciences and, and when I got to my,
my freshman year at the University of Arizona in Tucson, I just ii I
wanted to be in agriculture. I wanted to be working outside here. We sit
in my office, but this isn't the place that brings me joy. It's walking
fields, it's being out um working the land, I guess. Um And it's just,
it's, it's kind of funny when people, when people ask me today what are
you going to do? When are you going to retire? And, you know, I think
classic farmers don't, I don't know that we ever retire really. You know,
you just slow down a little bit. But my answer is kind of a pad patent.
Just a, you know, I see myself as an Agra and I'm a consultant to my own
company after I get out of everybody's way. You know, because there are
these, these, these, these guys that are coming up in the, in the company
are so sharp, they're dedicated. They come preloaded with so much really
cool information. Um That yeah, at some point in time, I'll be getting out
of their way and, and just hopefully still able to contribute at a level
and, and I know I'll always be able to enjoy the farm. So, you know,
hopefully they'll be patient with me and, and let me hang around. So let's
talk a little bit about the work ethic. You learned working on the farm
and growing up on the farm. Kind of how has that played a role in your
life today?
You learn that hard work is what is just what everybody should do. You
know, it's just hard work isn't that difficult. If, if, when you do it
every day, it's just not that difficult. Um And then when you, when you
see today to, to this day, um I have a respect for people who work hard,
who who actually appreciate
the art of agriculture or plumbing or electronics or, or carpentry or, or
whatever it is. Um, there's an artistry to that and I appreciate that at
every level and to this day, you know, we have, we have wonderful people
that, that we get to work with, you know, at an entry level position on
the farm and, and I like to go around and, and go out and, and sometimes
like over in the California, one of the California farms, we have rocks
everywhere. We had to pick up rocks because they were literally killing
the equipment. And the only way we could do that um at that point in time
anyway, was literally just walk out with our, with our hands and, and pick
them up and throw them in a trailer. And so I remember the, you know,
going by the, I still to this day whenever I see a rock crew, you know, I
want to go out, walk out and shake their hands and say, thank you for
doing this. I know this is a, this is a hell, hellish task. Thanks for
doing this. And they're like, they're looking at me like, hey, what are
you talking about? This is what we do, right? You know, you're paying us
to do this, we do this, you know, we're good. Um And, and I just want them
to know now, I, I appreciate you being here. Um You could do any you can
do anything for this price, you can do anything anywhere and I just want
you to know that I appreciate you doing this here today. Um, and I'm sure
that as I'm driving out there going. So who was that guy anyway? And, but
I, you know, it just, it just gives you an appreciation for the value of
what everybody does. So, um hard work is hard work. I mean, but I got, I,
I have to tell you a story. My, uh, my older son went to work with his
uncle for a couple of weeks in a, uh, in a large food service venue, uh,
country club of some sort. And so, you know, Kel was, was kind of
interested in, in that industry at the time. And, and so, you know, his
uncle said, hey, come on out, take a look at it, see what you see, what
you think. So, you know, I'm sure he probably started washing dishes, you
know, bussing tables here and there just doing what anybody can do just
stepping off the street. And, uh, so he'd go in early in the morning and,
you know, work his work, his hours clean up from the night before,
whatever that looked like. And, uh, and I'll never forget that. Uh, he, he
called me up the next day after work and, and he said, hey, I got to, oh,
no, I talked to, I talked to, uh, I talked to my brother-in-law, his uncle
, he called me up and he said, hey, I want to share you, share with you an
interaction that uh that one of my, one of my supervisors just had with
CAL. He said, you'll get a kick out of this. So, um so he goes on to
explain that Kell had come in early, worked all morning, um stayed a
little later to kind of help prep for something. And then they had a few
people not show up for what was a large gala event that night. And so they
looked at Kel, the supervisor looks at Kel and just says, Kel, would you
even consider, you know, helping serve tonight? And he said, sure, you
know, um, just point to where I go what I do and sure I'll, I'll do it.
And so they gave him his, his, his white coat and, and, uh, gloves or
whatever it was and he, uh, he stays, he stays that night, late, late into
the evening and works all night, helps clean up. And, um, and then shows
up early the next day, which by that time is probably maybe four hours
later or something shows up to work and starts doing what he normally does.
And the supervisor came in, made a point of coming in to, just to mention
to my brother in law that Kel, what that, when she went to Kel to say, wow
,
that, that was incredible. I mean, the fact that you literally worked all
day was just amazing and, and, and what the report from my brother in law
was. So Kel right, right off the bat, looks at her and says, oh, wait, you
think that was hard work? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. Um harvesting
packing watermelons at 100 and 13 degrees, you know, for 8.5 to 10.5 hours
a day. That's work. This I can do this all the time. So if that gives you
an indication as to, you know, the level of appreciation that you have and
, and just learning how to work hard, I think Kel explained it pretty well.
He absolutely did. Can you tell me a little bit about kind of the? And so
you get an idea that I don't have a problem telling you things. In fact,
you're gonna have to shove me up when I get out. So I have as much time as
you do today. So my, my schedule is open. Um And it's a great story. So
that's perfect. Tell me a little bit about um the harvesting of the
vegetables and the family and dinner table and what that was like kind of
that interaction between your family and
cooking. And so,
so
interestingly when, when the, when the boys were little, when I have, I
have two boys, um, 2.5 boys,
the half is that, um because I know you're thinking, well, what is that?
Um, the half is a young man,
young man came to us, uh, when he was 14 or 15, his freshman year in high
school, uh, he was on the basketball, freshman basketball team with my
younger son, Sean and, um,
his, for lack of a better definition, his family, his, his, his home
situation kind of imploded and so actually maybe exploded. So, uh, he
didn't have anywhere to go. So my younger son invited him to come home and
spend the night and, you know, get dinner or whatever. And so, you know,
he came over and, and we got to meet Javier is the young man's name. And,
uh, so we got to meet, we got to meet hobby and so basketball starts and
Kathleen's, you know, bringing hobby, you know, the, the, the freshman
team, they get to go last,
they're last, they're low on the to, uh, yeah, they're low on the total
pole. So, anyway, um,
Katherine goes to take off home one night and there's just police caution
tape around the entire house and make a long story short. There was
his, his, most of his family was in jail and his younger sister had been
taken away. He had no idea where, but there was no one to talk to the
neighbors just said everybody's gone. And so have you spent the night? And
, um, so we washed his clothes, got him a toothbrush. Um,
and he was good to go to school the next day. But he couldn't find
anything out about where he was supposed to go stay, whatever, everybody
was in jail. So he spent the night again and then he spent another night
and then he spent another night and, you know, my,
my wife Kathleen,
who is, let me just say this, it's always better to really marry. Well, um
, she is absolutely the better half. She took Abby out and just said, you
know, why don't you, why would it be easier to stay with us if, if he had
a little bit of clothing because he, he couldn't get any clothing that the
house was shut down. So, um, so we bought some clothes, um, probably got
some deodorants and, you know, whatever else those guys need when they're
a freshman in high school, we, we got that stuff and so the, uh, the half
, um, started and so we have 2.5 boys.
But anyway, um, when, when, uh, the original two K and Sean, uh, were
little guys, we decided to open the farm up to the public and that was in
the early nineties. And, um, and so you talk about dinner around the table
and, and so it was really fun, you know, to, to have the boys out on the
farm, right? Because they're, they're little guys and they're, they're
cruising around on the farm and they, they were catching toads and chasing
lizards and all the stuff that I did and they were having a ball. But I'll
never forget, never forget. Um, our younger son who was shoot 22 at the
time, two something. And, um,
we Kathleen had gone to get a pizza and she, she pulls down the tailgate
of the truck and, and, uh, you know, we dive into our, to our juice and,
and pizza and Sean says, mom, are we ever gonna have dinner at our table
again? And she looks at me,
I almost half choked on the pizza and it was like, ok, so we might be
spending a little too much time at the farm here. How do we back off? And
so we just, you know, we made a point of starting to have dinner time and
making a point of, of, you know, not sitting in front of the TV, but
sitting down with each other at the same table and, and having dinner. And
what was really, what was really interesting is I enjoyed, I enjoy those
moments so much that, that, and it's a joke in the family that I, uh, I, I
put my fork down, maybe take a drink of milk or water or whatever. And,
and, uh, and I just sit and, and kind of look around the table and just
sort of take it all in and, and so, and so Sean, the same younger son,
same guy says, you know, pops. It's a little creepy that, that you just
put your fork on and kind of just stare at us for a little bit. He said I
get it. It's kind of cool. You're just enjoying the moment, but it's a
little creepy. So after we all stopped laughing, I just said, I absolutely
love these moments and you're right, I would just, I would just freeze
this right now if I could, you know, and I'd, I'd look at those guys and
say, I'd like to freeze you right where you're at too because this, you
guys are just so fun all the time and, and they're just like, they just
hit you, you know, and just go. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Pops. Um, so dinner was
, dinner was just time with family, you know, so breakfast and dinner, I
didn't have lunch with them and, and I got to the point where I'd start to
go into work just a little bit later just so that I could have breakfast
with them before they went to school so that I could see them twice a day
. I get to see them in the morning and get to see them at night and I'd
stay at work a little bit later, but I'd still get them at night and, and
in the day and to me that, that was twice as much time and, and I think it
was the same with them. Um,
but I, I'll never know because I'm not gonna ask him. But to me it was, it
was a significant thing and then it happens at the dinner table that makes
it so important. It makes you enjoy those stories, stories about what you
did during the day and, and you know, for us, I gotta tell you, you know,
when they were that age, it wasn't so much about the preparation of the
food or anything and oh my God. And when they got older, it definitely was
not about the preparation of the food. Because as they grew their six,
they're 65 and 64 J six or 61 and their friends, we had the, we had the,
you know, the Kool Aid house if you will. So all their friends and we
loved it. We wanted to have that house where everybody came, you know, we
wanted the house that everybody came to because we, we love knowing what
they were up to, you know, and, and um and just enjoyed, enjoyed that time
with them so much. But honest, honestly, I'll never forget Kathleen
running back into the back room one time. Just going. You got to come out
and help me. She's going, I literally cannot prepare food fast enough to
get in front of these guys. II I just, they're, they're, they're starving.
You know, there's, there's no chunks out of the furniture yet. But you
know, you gotta, you gotta give me a hand here. The microwave isn't fast
enough So, uh, so I went out and, and here's, you know, part of the
basketball team, some guys from the baseball team, football team and, and
they're all big, they're all big guys and they were just tearing through
the food. And so I, I have to admit that, you know, when, when, uh, in, in
their formative ages, shall we say they probably weren't eating the best
stuff around, just massive quantities of it. You know, as they're tearing
through, you know, huge numbers of calories every day as they're, as
they're lifting in the morning running and then, and then, you know, open
gym or whatever the season, you know, look like. So, yeah, we were just
trying to keep those guys, you know, full
anyway. Yeah. Sorry, I digress. No, no, no, it's great. So today, let me
share with you today is so funny because, uh, just the other day. So now,
you know, when, especially when we're in season here in Arizona, you know
, now it's, it's, uh, you know, I harvest, I harvest things and I take
them home and, and, you know, we juice a lot, the boys juice. They, they
love doing the juicing thing. We do a lot of juicing, um, for breakfast
and, and even to drink with lunch and maybe dinner. But, you know, for
Kathleen and I dinner is a large bowl of salad with, with different
ingredients. Um, but then the entree, you know, fish chicken usually will
be on top and that's, that's dinner and then we usually out of the same
bowl, you know, handing it back and forth and carrying on conversations
about what she's doing, what I'm doing, what the boys are doing and, and,
uh, you know, visiting about friends and, and just, that's, that's dinner
, but it's basically a salad with something on top and that just seems
very natural to us. But, uh, I, I can't remember which, which one of our
boys it was, I think it was, uh, I think it was Sean was over the other
day. And, uh, and he's looking kind of rummaging through the refrigerator
really quick and he's going ma, you don't have anything to eat in here.
The only thing I see is there's, there's just ingredients. Yeah. And so we
just, we just loved that statement so much. Um, because, you know, and,
and yet he, uh, he enjoys good healthy meals with us, but at that moment
he just wanted that thing to throw in the microwave because he had, he had
a short period of time and, you know, to have lunch or whatever it was he
wanted, he needed to get going. So, anyway, uh, that's, that's dinner for
us. So that's, those are meals, meals have been, you know, I guess just,
just whenever, whatever time we can get to hang out with each other, what
made you decide to go into the family business and at what point did you
make that decision? Do you think? I just knew, like I said, well, early on
in my, in my academic life, um, I just knew I wanted to be outside. It was
, it was pretty quickly that, that I transferred that interest of just
being outdoors to really wanting to learn about, um, agronomy. So, uh, so
I got my, my degree in Agronomy and plant genetics. I, I graduated in the
early eighties and just went out to the farm. Um the family farm and so
started, started working in the family farm and doing that classic Central
Arizona, you know, row crop configuration. But, but there were signals to
me um
that, that I picked up. Um I studied, I had the opportunity to study some
, you know, the sale of commodities. So I, I studied the commodity market
actually, you know, bought some futures, you know, with my dad's, with my
dad's blessing and, and uh we went in together and, and we, we bought and
sold cotton so that I could learn um how to buy and sell cotton, how to
market more efficiently because, you know, the easiest thing sometimes in
the fresh fruit and vegetable, any crop that you're growing, any part of
agriculture, the easiest thing to do is to produce the most challenging is
to market. And, and so I wanted to learn this thing about cotton marketing.
And so uh it just happened to be at a time in, in the marketing in the,
in the overall distribution of, of cotton as a as a global commodity. Um
It was just shifting from a domestically grown, domestically used
commodity to global. And so for so for the first time, for an example,
you'd see a massive hailstorm go through, you know, the cotton belt and
the market didn't budge and it was, it was, it was earth shaking, you know
, it was, everybody in the room was looking at was looking at the reports
of of potential damage to the cotton crop and and yet there was no
movement in the cotton market in the futures market. And what in the world
was going on unbeknownst to us growers. Um
There were reports that other countries had now had the ability and wanted
to move cotton into the world market. So the world, the world marketers,
the uh the world buyers of cotton took that into consideration. So market
didn't budge. The in the inventory was now out there and the United States
inventory of cotton was just one of many. And so at that point, you start
to realize, you know, my my immediate reaction was to look at the price of
cotton that day and just go wait, that means we're going to have to grow
cotton for this amount that's not gonna happen. So then you realize as a
as a commodity grower that that now you're dealing now you're farming the
government and now you, you play to the whims of the, not to say that it's
the whims, but that's, I'm sorry, that's the first word that comes to mind
of the, of the federal government. And so trying to figure out what you're
doing every, every other year or at the very least every five years,
extremely challenging. Um, and not only that, I'm a farmer. I like growing
crops. I don't, I don't want to have to farm the government. That's not
what I do. That's not what I get enjoyment out of. So that changed how I
looked at farming. It changed how I look at marketing. So I wanted to get
into crops that could stand on their own where I could put a budget
together and, and so by the way, you ought to know that, that around here
we use a lot of sports analogies. So we use the, you know, if so if you're
batting in baseball and you step up and, you know, there's an average of a
certain number of certainly strikeouts walks, um, singles, doubles,
triples, home runs, you know, if you're putting a budget together and it
requires you to hit a, you know, a double or a triple every time you step
up to the plate. Man. That's, those are tough odds, like almost impossible.
But yet that's what we're looking at. So then who's, how do, how do we
make money without the government stepping in and saying, oh, Hey, let me
carry that ball for you and throw it a little further into the field. Um
Oh, that was tough. So I wanted to get into something that would allow me
to be profitable. And so I really wanted to get into more of the fresh
fruits and vegetables and, and so uh we started to do that and it was
right about that time when we first started into we as a family. My, my
dad, my brothers, we all farmed together at one point um in my dad's
company, agricultural enterprises. And uh and so it was, it was actually
right around that time when we realized that,
that um we had very different, we being myself and, and, and my brothers
and my dad just had different ways of farming and, and what was important
to me was maybe not as important to them. And so, you know, with
everybody's blessing, Kathleen and I kind of broke off and did our own
thing. And so it was sort of a slow, it was a transition that, that took
place in the mid eighties and, and uh and finished in the late eighties
around 88. And so we started, we started our own farm and um and sometimes
it's just better to be lucky than good. And we grew mostly vegetables
still growing a little bit of cotton at that time. Um But we did, we did
well enough to keep going and there were some extremely
slim years. Um, there were times when, when I'd go home and Kathleen and I
would grab the boys and we'd, we'd look at them and just say, listen, guys
,
here's a wrap. Um, and to look at really young faces, really young faces
and to try and, and let them know that, you know, listen, it's not all
lost or anything, but we're gonna have to be tight here, you know. So when
your buddies come and they've got a new skateboard and, and you're not
able to get one here's what's up, here's what's going on. Um, so they
learned, they learned early on, you know, you, you save when you can and,
and when you, and when you, when you'd hit a home run and you'd, and you'd
have a good melon crop or broccoli or whatever potato, whatever that crop
might have been. Um, you save it and you wait and, and you hold on to that
and you learn to be conservative. And I think, I think learning to farm on
my own during a period when Central Arizona agriculture was not really
swinging from the trees so much. Um, it was very difficult. It was, it was
, you had to, if you could make it at that time, I think you can make it
anywhere. And, uh, and so we learned to farm in those in those times. And
so you really learned to save and budget and, um, be conservative fiscally
conservative. So, anyway, so now I've been taken off. What was the
original question? I'm gonna follow up with a, a question about the
decision to, um, split up. I mean, what was that impact for you? I mean,
personally, it must have been one of the hardest decisions you made and
how did you make that decision? It was really interesting. Um, I'm kind of
a systems guy. Um, we also joke about a fairly, fairly healthy level of,
of O CD in my family with me. And uh so there's a lot of funny jokes about
that. And uh and I, and I wear that badge um somewhat proudly. So I'm, I'm
good with it at the very least, I'm good with it. Um
Because because at the end of the day when you're in agriculture, I don't
know that having a healthy amount of O CD doesn't help you, you know, pay
attention to detail um to create systems of efficiency that, that help
everybody, you know, work together more efficiently and, and so that you
don't, so that you can work smarter and not harder because that at the end
of the day, I think is what has helped us kind of move forward a little
bit. Um
So the decision was was Kathleen and I went to have dinner with my folks
and, and I wanted, I had an, I had an idea and uh so I, I wanted to meet
with my dad with my, with my parents in general, knowing that, knowing
that there was a chance that, that this could go, you know, one or two
ways and uh one was that he would, he would like the idea and move forward
with. And the idea was, um here's, here's how we can organize this farm so
that the brothers aren't overlapping and yet not dropping the ball or
creating gaps in between us. So here's how we can organize this so that
here's how the literally an organizational chart flow of personnel flow of
equipment, you know, and, and, you know, I, I thought, I thought I had
laid out pretty well, you know, and actually my dad did too. He looked at
, he said, yeah, that'd be great if I wanted to do that. But he just
looked at me. He just looked at both Kathleen and I, he said, I have never
wanted you guys to farm together. Never wanted to. That would be the worst
idea in the world for you guys to farm together because unbeknownst to me
, he and his family had tried that and it didn't work very well and he
didn't want to create that situation that threw us all into the, into the
same bucket and, and um and, and tight work environment. He just thought
I'm not gonna do that to you. So he just said, I just have always wanted
to create an opportunity for you guys to get in here learn and then go and
do your own thing. And so I'm looking at him going, I guess it's time for
me to go do my own thing and, and, um, you know, and Kathleen kind of
grabs my leg and my mom starts crying and, and, um, and I just said, great
, um, I didn't know that, you know, we, we, we might have, we might have
started a transition a little bit earlier so that it wouldn't be just, hey
, tomorrow, I'm gonna go out and start my own thing now. But um no, it was
, it was great with their blessing. Um Kathleen and I, you know, literally
jumped off the cliff together, holding, you know, each other's hand. And,
um, and we joke about those, not that moment per se, but I have to say
after that, you know, uh holidays and dinners with my family became a lot
more fun because we weren't, you know, grinding about the farm and what
was supposed to have happened that day or, or did happen or whatever. And
so it, it became less about work and all about family stuff again. So it
was good. It was great. And uh and Kathleen, I still joke about the amount
of work because her thought was, you know, that was a big place and, and
when I got out of school, you know, I, I thought I'd be able to come in
and just turn the agricultural world on its ear, you know, because, hey, I
know how to do this stuff. Right. And, um, I guess it's good to have
self-confidence. But still that was ridiculous thinking because I get out
of school and, and I could have worked, you know, I could have worked 30
hours a day and, and that farm could have absorbed every last minute of
that. And, uh, as I, as I later found out, um, but when I started, when
Kathleen and I were doing our own, you, you work just as hard, if not
harder, but it feels different. It's just different when it's your place.
And I think any business owner, any entrepreneur would feel that uh not
that I'm an entrepreneur, any, any individual business owner would feel
that when you, when it's your place, there's just a different feeling
about it. It just feels right, it feels good. And, and so you know that
every last minute that you put into it is benefiting you and your family
and, and the people that you get to work with hopefully. And so it's just
kind of, I don't know, it just, you don't get tired, you get physically
tired but you don't get emotionally tired. So you mentioned that you
weren't an entrepreneur, however you have to manage the business, you have
to market, you have to produce. So in some ways you are an entrepreneur in
your own, right? Oh, I know, I joke about that. So just, you know, I just
, I just, I jokingly go with the motto of, you know, it's better to be
lucky than good. And uh and I just think that I've been incredibly lucky
in my life. Do you think your business skills helped you manage and kind
of transform um the farm itself? I, I wouldn't really call myself a, a
great businessman. Um
I think there's a certain amount of logic that goes forward. There's a
certain amount of
remember the respect for people,
having a certain level of respect for the people that you work with will
get you.
Mm
You can create good teams and we have really good teams still do. So let's
talk a little bit about choosing to start on your own, the crops you chose
, why you chose them. So we chose to, so we chose to go into fresh fruits
and vegetables as much as possible. Although ironically enough at the time
that we broke away um financing
the financial, the financial institutions were, were set up and organized.
So be so much around the guarantee that the government throws, you know,
that safety net underneath the commodities that you could borrow money all
day long to grow, grow to go grow cotton and the the whole, remember the
Central Arizona, you know, grouping all of that. And yet I'd look at the
bankers and say I can show you I can show you how in a budget that won't
work and yet you're telling me that you won't lend me money on vegetables
, but you'll lend me money for the cotton. And, um, it was really
interesting to go through that, that cycle with, with the lenders. And so
, um,
fascinating to me to this day that they would have locked me into a
business that I think would have gone out of business by now, um, that,
that model, you know, wouldn't have worked. And yet here I was looking at
them saying, let me show you something that's newer and, and it's being
done, you know, it's not like it's, it's new, you know, it was new to
these lenders, I think. But uh but let me show you something that really
does have a chance for succeeding. And so we, we got one lender that, that
believed in us. And so we move forward and, you know, it, it, it worked.
And so we went into uh melons during the summer, um potatoes, broccoli
cabbage. So, so literally, people always ask me, let me share this with
you. People always ask me, what do you grow? What do you grow? What do you
, what do you want to grow? And I always look at everybody and just say,
you know, I can tell you today what we grow. But if you ask me tomorrow
and maybe do something different, they're like, what do you mean? You know
, don't you grow the same thing all the time? And I looked at him and said
, I'm gonna grow whatever I can sell. And that may be totally different
tomorrow because I can tell you what I'm doing today is totally different
than what I was doing not too long ago. And, and so I hope
that we are sharp enough that we are observant enough to identify the
opportunities and take advantage of the opportunities or work our way
through the challenges that then creates opportunities, but to be able to
recognize opportunities. Um I think that's, that's significant, you know,
and, and so we went with at the time, what we thought would make money.
And so it was fresh fruits and vegetables and a little bit of cotton. And
then we slowly did away with the cotton. It just didn't work in our
rotation as far as um the agronomic and, and everything about it. So we
went to fresh fruits and vegetables about that time. We, we opened the
farm to the public and we were, we had a shoot, Kathleen had, I wanna say
25,000 students a year coming through the farm on educational tours, we
had festivals, um parties.
Basically the, the farm became a way to share the farm with everybody.
There were so many people that didn't still to this day don't have an idea
as to what farming is about. And, and I by that, let me the example I give
is the, is always the uh the UE garden. So we thought, uh it, so let me
tell you, we, we thought we were because, uh because our are open to the
public portion of the farm is, is kind of what we're known for, even
though it had to close in 2002 people told me about it and it was, it was
so fun. God, you talk about the great people, um, wonderful people that,
that we had the opportunity to work with. Anyway, Kathleen built an
absolutely phenomenal program. Um She took a corner of the farm and turned
it into a and educational and entertaining place. And I say those two
things because we found out that if you can make something entertaining
and educational at the same time, it has a much greater value to people
and, and a farm can be that like that. There are so as an example, the,
the um the, the pick your own because we thought we were selling
vegetables. When we opened the farm in the public, we thought we were
selling fresh fruits and vegetables. They're right in your backyard.
They're gonna taste better, they're fresh. That's why you should come and
buy your, your fresh fruits and vegetables from us could not have been
more wrong. We're here. We are in Arizona where basically 90% of, you know
, all of the greens from, for the country come out of here during the
winter. We get pretty fresh stuff here. So it's not that big of a deal and
you know, the fruits during the summer, it's just not that big of a deal
because we're in Arizona. Um But we just thought that people wanted that.
Um because people always said, well, God, we'd love to buy your stuff. Why
can't we find your stuff? And so we thought we were selling vegetables. Um
So we had this amazingly beautiful. I mean, literally people would come in
and take pictures of the wet rack that we had with all the fresh fruits
and vegetables that we were growing and, and because it's yours, right?
You and because you have one person in the market and that's their job is
to make sure that that thing is, is full all the time. And I mean, it was
beautiful. It was, it was literally take a picture of it, you know, hang
it up on the wall kind of thing. Um But people would walk in mom and dad
and 2.1 kids and they'd walk in and, and go, oh you harvested the carrots.
We, we thought we'd be able to dig our own like, so, you know, I'm, I'm
dumb but I'm not an idiot. So after a while we're kind of looking at each
other going, they don't, they don't want us to pick the stuff for them.
All of this right here can go away. We're, we're literally just the
demonstration gardens. Well, we've got this other place right out here,
we'll just, we'll let them go pick it. And so we had the, we had the UEC
uh gardens and it never ceases to amaze me to this day how little people
know about what they buy in the store every day. Um So the example I
always use is uh broccoli. So we had you plant a little bit of broccoli
each week. So that when it, when it's time to harvest, it doesn't all come
on at the same time, you, everybody, it keeps coming out each week, right.
So you have to have the same amount of broccoli each week. So, everything
that we grew out there was done that way. So right next to each other, you
had these little, these small planted areas where here's this week's
harvest and then next week is right next to it. And next to that is the,
the following week and so far. So, so on this, on this one area, uh you
have these, these beautiful broccoli florets.