This is John England. I'm here interviewing. Uh Could you please say your
name Joan mcgregor and today is July 12th, 2016.
And uh we're here in Flagstaff and uh Joan, if you could please tell me
when and where you were born. Uh I was born in uh Seattle, Washington
when you don't have to, if you, if you don't want to
disclose my age, that's fine.
Yeah. And, and could you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and
, and sort of the community?
Ok. I, um I actually was born in Seattle. I grew up in the San Francisco
Bay area. Um So my parents moved there when I was six months old. So
pretty much grew up in that um in the Bay area, which is known to be, I
mean, next to, you know, very good agricultural lands and farms and so on.
So we used to go out on the weekend to Half Moon Bay and, and buy farm
food.
Oh, great. Um So, uh and, and how long did you live there? How long were
you, did you grow up? Um Well, so I guess I just, I lived there, you know
, uh, pretty much, you know, uh, you know, through, uh, secondary school
and then went to a number of places and then eventually ended up at UC
Davis to do my undergraduate degree in philosophy. Perfect. Yeah, that, so
that's the next question. Uh, maybe you could tell me a little bit more
about your schooling and your education, both your, your pre college years
and then, ok, second education. Well, um, um, let's see. Um, so my, uh,
primary years were as a, we live down the peninsula. We lived in Belmont
and then in San Mateo. Um, you know, went to school there, I guess, you
know, in terms of, I mean, one of the things that I often, um, remember
about going to school is that for some reason, I guess for a variety of
reasons, my, my dad in particular was very militant about food and, um,
didn't believe in buying any kind of processed food, including, and, and I
grew up, of course, in the sixties and seventies when it was a sort of
heyday of white white bread, wonder bread TV, dinners. Um, the sort of
whole process food was just emerging and it was really thought at that
time for now, I think back on it. But I mean, it was sort of a middle
class way to eat. So when I was a kid we were never allowed to have uh
white bread and, um, or any sugar Um, so, so we, uh my dad at that time
when I was a kid used to say that sugar was worse than heroin. And I
always remember thinking, I don't know what heroin is, but it must be
pretty, must be pretty bad. Um, if I, if I could ask real quick, where do
you think that militancy came from? Um, yeah, I, you know, he, he had been
a gymnast and a bodybuilder back in the, you know, in the thirties and
forties. And I, and, and he grew up during the depression when there
wasn't a lot of food around and, and his family always had a little uh
garden in the backyard where they grew food. And I think he just got, you
know, got on to, you know, seeing food is really essential to, to health
and the sort of mind, body spirit idea of uh um you know, the role of food
in, in, in your life. So it wasn't as if this wasn't, this is, you know,
in the Bay area way before all the kind. This is not the foodie revolution
now, but this, I say this is more, you know, the, you know, early sixties
and um where it was just, you know, it was really unheard of that people
um you know, wouldn't eat white bread or um you know, wouldn't eat, you
know, various kinds of processed foods. So, because that was really, what
was, that was the heyday of that food. Right. It was really, the
development was in the sixties and seventies. And, um, so, yeah, I think
my dad probably because of the, um, you know, you know, being, being, uh,
uh, you know, being a weightlifter, being a gymnast, um, seeing sort of,
and then also seeing him, he always talked about in the depression how
many people didn't have enough or access to good food. And I remember him
talking about one of his good friends who, um, you know, his family didn't
have enough food. I mean, a lot of people didn't at that time and he got
the kids all got rickets and, you know, really became very sick and those
, those kinds of health conditions lasted, you know, well into their, you
know, later lives. Right. So, um I think seeing that experience of people
not, you know, not having access to any food or having access to, you know
, just very poor quality food, um you know, made him very aware of, of, um
, you know, eating good food. So even, you know, my mother talks about
that, even though my, my parents didn't necessarily have a happy marriage
, they got divorced. But she always said the one, the one good thing about
my father was, he really was insistent that we didn't eat, you know,
canned or frozen vegetables. We would always get fresh vegetables and, you
know, fresh food. And so, um that was, uh, so that kind of formed, you
know, my, you know, my thinking about, you know, food and then, you know,
I come from a family though, you know, there's no reason, you know, other
than eating real food and eating good food that everybody's, you know,
pretty much lived very long lives that aren't that without, without, um,
health problems, you know, without significant health problems, you know.
So, um, and, uh, you know, I always like to tell the story of my, my
grandfather, my dad's father, I mean, you know, he was from the north of
England and, and, you know, his family was so poor. I mean, they, and then
the, the father died and he, you know, he ended up when he was eight,
working in the, the mines, you know, the coal mines before, before they
came to Canada, all these guys. So there was up, there was no opportunity.
So they, you know, came and, you know, you know, like in 18, what was it
like 1911
or something like that? They came over and, and, you know, but, but, but
even though, you know, he had that kind of really, you know, pretty
deficient upbringing and having to work in the mines as a little kid, um,
he lived to 100 and one but, you know, they always, they always ate good
food. I mean, and again, not sort of fancy food but just they, they had a
garden in the backyard where they grew food. Um, and, uh, they always had
, you know, you know, fresh, uh, you know, you know, bread that was, you
know, whole wheat bread and, and those kind of things. So, again, not a,
you know, not a fancy diet. Um, but just, um, but just real fresh, whole
food. Great. Um, so I know you were, this was kind of a young age, but did
you get a sense that, that, that your father's idea of food was a common
idea? No.
No, not at all. In fact, when we went to school, all the other kids had,
um, you know, white bread sandwiches with, um, you know, American cheese
and, um, uh, you know, ding dongs or? Oh, that was the beginning of that,
you know, the sort of, you know, all those packaged, uh, pastries, right
from hostess and, um, and potato chips and, you know, I guess kids at that
point still didn't have soda at school but there, you know, people were,
would be able to drink soda. We were never to drink soda. So, yeah. So,
you know, I mean, I'd say we didn't forget, you know, we were out and
about. But, um, but yeah, no, it was not, that was not a common. I knew
that wasn't common because other people were, um, on the other hand, you
know, in the Bay area there, you know, um, some of my closest friends
growing up our neighbors and some of my closest friends were, um, uh
Chinese ancestry and I learned a lot about food from them because they
really focused on again, fresh food, you know, made at home and, and even
though they were, you know, um, you know, these are all sort of
professional people but they, uh, really, you know, paid a lot of
attention to food and in fact, they used to, they used to call me their
white daughter because I would go, like, I was just part of their family
and we would go to Chinatown on Sunday night and have dinner. And, um, and
they always said, don't ask what it is, just try it because, you know, and
there were some pretty far out things that I as a kid. Wow, that's great.
Um, so that's great. That ties into the next question beautifully because
I'd like you to tell us a little bit about what your fondest food memory
is. It's, it's a little bit more of a specific question but maybe you
could tell us what that was and, and why that was. Oh, that's ok. Um, wow
, that's hard. Um, yes, I have a lot of, um, well, I, you know, I guess,
you know, I might say, you know, just, um, when I travel, you know, we
travel a lot, you know, for fun and professional, I guess too. But, um,
and then, you know, one of the joys of traveling is eating good food. Um,
and I remember when we were in Oaxaca, Mexico, we um took a class at this
restaurant and the woman who runs it, the chef who taught us was also, I
think the chef that taught Rick Bayless. Um I'm forgetting the name of her
restaurant, but it was really great because you, you know, you spend the
whole day uh including going to the market and cooking as a group and um
you know, learning about the ingredients and learning about the cultural
history behind them and just, you know, working with other people and
laughing and, and then at the end you sit down and eat this big meal
you've created. And uh that was a great memory and I've, you know, done
similar things like that in other countries and find it. It's like a
really fun way to get into a place
that's great. Um Yeah, food is a place is a, that's an interesting idea.
Thank you. Um And so, so as you grew up, you started to get into food
sustainability. This idea of food sustainability. Could you tell us a
little bit about what led to that and how you got into it? Well, I think,
I, um you know, I didn't really put the food and sustainability together
until just pretty recently to tell you the truth. I mean, I've been
interested for a number of years o on um uh issues of sustainability
thinking about sustainability and, and in particular, since I'm a
philosopher thinking about the ethics of sustainability and why should we
care about the future? You know, and so sort of trying to build out, you
know, what are our moral obligations to the future? And I've, you know,
come to, to see it as, um you know, I mean, a more complicated story. But
anyway, so I was interested in that. I was also interested in bioethics.
So I'm interested in human health, I'm interested in our health systems
and, and um um and so what was it sort of, you know, iii I in thinking
about sustainability, I thought um about the issues around climate change
and then climate change is kind of hard to get people very worked up about
, right? And so people don't really necessarily, they don't see it, they
don't, we're not, we don't think we're experiencing it. And of course, we
may not even experience the worst of it, you know, in some of the some
regions, maybe Arizona is going to be hotter and drier, but a lot of us
have enough money, we can probably buffer ourselves from some of the worst
of it. So how do you get people to kind of care about these issues? And so
that's where I started to think well, rather than coming at climate, you
know, why not come at it through food, right? And of course, then once I
started thinking about food as a sustainability problem, I started
thinking about all the ethical issues around food that aren't necessarily
sustainability issues. But when, when you think about sustainability in a
broader context, they are so social justice issues and cultural
sustainability and so on, right? So that's a kind of roundabout way of
getting to it. Ok, so I read that your background is in ethics and, and
social justice, is that so is it fair to say that that kind of led into?
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I mean, it turns out that food
has all kinds of ethical issues attached to it. Right. Um, I mean, we, you
know, we're now, you know, a lot of discussion about the, you know, you
know, just, you know, some of the, the, the climate or the ecological
issues around food have to do with the carbon footprint, for example, uh
around the modern, you know, industrial ag, right? It's, it's one of the
biggest drivers in fact of, of climate change. Right. So if we, if we
change our, if we change our agricultural practices, we could go a long
way towards solving that problem. Right. But then there are all sorts of
other issues. I mean, there's a lot of discussion now about food deserts,
right? So people in America, um and that's the other thing is we certainly
looking at social justice and food in America. I mean, you see, I mean,
we're the, um, you know, we're the wealthiest country in the world we
produce more food than people in the world. In fact, we have so many
calories. I think we have twice as many calories as every person in
America needs. But we still have places we still have people that go
hungry in America. We still have, you know, you know, nutritional
deficiencies, even if they have enough calories or too many calories is
what we're finding. But they're eating food that's, you know, bereft of,
of, of nutritional value, right? So, and sometimes that's because they
live in a community, there's a food desert, right? So they live in a
community in which there's no grocery store that sells produce or sells
dairy products or sells. So they might, so they might just live near some
place that sells alcohol and soda, right? I mean, it's the 7-Eleven or
it's the, right? Um So there's a, I mean, so what I guess what I came to
is I thought, wow, food is a kind of lens in, on, on a lot of uh ethical
issues that I'm interested in. Great, great. So, so you use a term called
food desert? Yes. And which is from my understanding, sort of uh an area
that doesn't have, like you said, access to uh healthy or healthier foods.
Um Could you say a little bit more about that? Like where they can be
found? Are they sort of an inner city thing or can they also be found in
rural community? Yeah. So food desert, you know, I mean, I think it, you
know, it, originally people started noticing it in inner cities when, you
know, uh, grocery stores were no longer, well, you know, back in, you know
, when they used to have sort of small corner grocery stores, you know,
those went away, we went to larger grocery stores but they're not, they're
not situated in urban centers where there are poor people. Right. So
you'll have places and I'm not sure what the, the technical definition of
, but, but the point is that people can't, uh, within easy access walking
or even a, you know, a short drive or bus ride access a kind of major
grocery store. Right? And so there might be fast food joints, right? There
may be a Burger King and there may be a 7-Eleven, you know, that sells
candy bars. But the idea of a food desert is that it's, it's bereft of, of
, of, of access to good food. Now, I mean, good point about, you know, is
it just in urban areas? No, I mean, one of the things they're finding is
that, you know, like we look at, um, Navajo nation here and, and some of,
um, and, and other, you know, non Indian country as well, um, where people
don't have access, uh, you know, again, for miles and miles and miles for
any kind of, um, healthy foods, you know, produce. And, um, so they might
have, you know, a convenience market but convenient mar markets, as we all
know, you know, are loaded up with potato chips, candy bars and, you know
, so, um, so that they're now mapping this. So it's kind of interesting
because you can look at like GIS mapping, they're mapping food deserts in
America. And, um, you know, and, and there's a, there's a whole issue of
why are, why did this happen and a lot of it has, you know, at least in
the cities has to do with certain kinds of, you know, redlining and sort
of forcing minority people into certain areas and, and white flight to
suburb. So there, there is a history there, right? And how this happened.
Um I'm not a historian but I do know that, I mean, it's an interesting
question, it sort of why did this happen and how do we solve it? Right?
How do we, how do we make sure that if we see something like food as a
kind of basic, right? Healthy food as a, as a kind of basic, right? How do
we ensure that people all have access to it? Right. Great. Thank you. Uh
So the next question has to do with you and sustainable food systems, but
if you could just explain what a food system is briefly? Ok. So, I mean, a
food system is, um you know, is this complex of um you know, everything
from uh you know, farmers to distributors to restaurateurs to uh you know
, all those points within that food moves all the way back to waste, right
? How, what we do with food waste, right. Which is another problem, right
? And, you know, we have landfills filled with food was because we waste
40% of our food. So, so a food system is just this whole um uh uh um you
know, system of all the ways in which we kind of input to output of, of
food. And, you know, as you can imagine, it's kind of a complex,
you know, set of issues. I mean, we often focus in on uh farmers but
farmers work within um the farm bill, for example, or certain lending
practices or certain, right? So it's not just farmers doing their thing,
they do it within a whole set of structures, right? And so when we want to
think about the food system, we have to think about it in that more. I
mean, if we want to, you know, if we think there are problems with it, we
have to kind of recognize that it's a network of, of issues. OK, great. Um
So this, this next question sort of it ties in a little bit to the
questions that, that we've asked before. But how did you become interested
in sustainable food systems specifically?
Um OK, so I became interested in sustainable food systems by um seeing,
you know, for, I mean, kind of essentially how food impacts the
environment Um So if we wanna worry about um our effect on the um you know
, the natural environment
currently and for future generations, then we need to look at our food
system, we look at how agriculture is uh conducted and um and how that
whole system works. Right. Right now, we've got, you know, for example,
incentives to, you know, big egg and that's often working against smaller
, say organic producers who might be better for say ecological reasons if
we, if we invested in them rather than investing in big agriculture. So,
yeah. So is there some specific catalyst that got you involved in, in this
or, or a specific? Yeah. Well, OK. So I guess like, yeah, OK. So I was
part of a group um that the I hr uh organized um they got a melon grant
that was to look at the humanity's contribution to the problems of the
Anthropocene, right? So we all know what this mean. We don't know, but
it's a problem with the Anthropocene and rather than seeing the problems
of the Anthropocene as a kind of science or engineering problem. Humanists
have been arguing that no, these are really problems that people in the
humanities need to be part of thinking about and, and working on solutions.
So I was part of that group and um and uh as that with that group, we uh
a group of us um out of that started thinking about um rather than
thinking about sort of that abstract level of taking the problem of food
and saying, what can humanity say about the problem of our food system,
which is they say is a, is a big contributor to the problems of the
Anthropocene, right? Ok. Great. Um So this is all based on the idea of
food sustainability and maybe could you explain what food sustainability
means to you? Ok. Well, food sustainability um means to me um I've thought
about it in terms of five different values that maybe that's too
complicated. OK. Yeah, I mean, it's only, only academics break things.
Yeah, sure. A complicated system. No. Anyway, so there's so, I mean, part
of it is I, I've been thinking about this and also I work with this group
on it. And so what we came to is that there are different values that we
want to preserve if we want a sustainable food system. And, and, and so,
you know, and, and, and so in thinking about that, we articulated these
five values. So the, and what we mean by that is if you want to build a
sustainable food system in your community, what are the things that you
should be paying attention to? What are the values you want to preserve?
And again, part is to get people to recognize that our system, you know,
who we support, who we don't support, who gets food, who doesn't, I mean,
those represent values of ours, right? We can articulate those values and
change the system based on it. Right? Just as we've made other changes in
society. Right. We decided that we didn't wanna, you know, necessarily,
you know, pollute our air and so we put regulations in place and we, you
know, so we can change our behavior if we, if we decide something of value
is a particular value of ours. Right. Right. So what I, um, so the, so the
values that I think are important for a sustainable food system are, first
of all, um that, that your food system preserve the um uh the historical
and cultural traditions of a place, right? So that uh that food is more
than just energy that it's really is about meaning in people's lives,
right? And it's tied up with their culture, their history and that, that
isn't static, that changes. So, you know, I mean, those of us who come to
, you know, say to Phoenix and maybe we were from back east or something
or maybe, you know, but suddenly you live here for a while and then, you
know, sort of Mexican food and, and some maybe indigenous group
ingredients start to filter into your cooking or, or, or other, but that
those kinds of foods resonate in this place, right? And there's a reason
for that because they, they grow well here and they make sense in this
climate. So the idea that if you want to sustain sustainable food system
it's also about sustaining culture, right? So culture is part of
sustainability. And again, that's why I think when, when some of those
people frame sustainability is just a kind of science problem. They're not
, they're not recognizing that people don't want to just sustain the world
, they want to sustain their, their, their traditions, their culture,
right? So it's cultural sustainability is important. Um So that's the
first uh value is in the second value of a sustainable food system is
maybe the more obvious one is, is um is ensuring that the food system, uh
you know, uh uh uh ensures ecological integrity. Right? Um Right now, you
know, we have um food practices that are uh we're losing our soil, we're
killing our bees, our pollinators, right? We're doing these, that's not,
it's not sustainable, right? If we don't have bees, we're not going to
have pollinator. I mean, so some of these things are just not sustainable
and people have been, you know, saying it and, and there are changes here
and there, but we need to get, we need to think about it. And then we look
at here in the Southwest and in particular in Arizona where we have
limited amount of water and um and water is tied to energy because we have
to pump it. I mean, all those things we have to think about what should we
be growing here and, you know, and, and um uh uh um and what shouldn't we
? Right. And, um, so we have practices in the valley and in Arizona. Well
, this story came out about the Saudi Saudis owning, you know, big farms
out out west where they were, when they bought the land, they bought the
water rights and they're growing alfalfa that they send the alfalfa to
Saudi Arabia to feed their cows. So they have milk right now. Does that
sound like a sustainable practice? You know, we don't have a lot of water
, alfalfa is a big water sucker, but also that alfalfa is not staying, you
know, here, you know, either, you know, so, I mean, and so you've got the
carbon footprint of taking it over there. And so there's a, so that
doesn't seem like a good practice. So we seem to think about those things
, right? And that goes to water rights, it goes to um you know, what
should be practiced in certain areas, right? Um So that's the um the
second value, the, the, the, the, the third value is um uh you know, you
know, uh practices that uh cultivate and sustain health, human health,
right? So, um so if we think about, you know, wanting to have a
sustainable food system, we want one that, you know, really does um uh uh
you know, encourage healthy habits and, and, and, and health in humans,
right? So again, we have these problems of, we have communities in Phoenix
that have um 50% diabetes. Type two diabetes and their Children and their
Children. Yeah. Yeah. So in, uh, many of the Indian communities and the
Latino communities and, you know, you know, and even, you know, and, and,
and, you know, in white communities but I mean, that, but in some of those
communities that they, it's devastating the kind of, um, impact and that
is related to food. Right. It's like there's not, you know, somebody's not
putting something in the water that it's related to our food system and,
and you know, and also lack of, you know, maybe access to good ex, you
know, exercise and stuff, but really food is a big driver in the diabetes
problem. So, so we've got a food system where we're making it cheap for
people to, to eat, you know, empty calories and then which results in
these kinds of health problems. So that seems to me another value is, is,
is designing a food system that really, you know, encourages and preserves
human health. Um, the fourth value is, um, uh uh food justice and social
justice. So, you know, a sustainable system has to be one in which, you
know, people have access to food. So it's about food, deserts. And then
people who, you know, many people go hungry every day in America, a
surprising number of them, more than most people are aware of. A lot of
kids, you know, are on free lunch and often that's the only meal they get
every day. There are schools that actually give kids, you know, bags of
food at the end of the, on Friday to take home for the weekend because
they know they won't have any food at home. So, I mean, we have, you know
, that those are, that shouldn't happen in this country. Right? And so, um
, thinking about that issue is an important one, but also thinking about
social justice issues in, in workers throughout the system. So when we
think of farm workers, you know, having not only a living wage, but also
not being, you know, living in an environment where pesticides are dumped
on them and their kids. Right? And, um, and then we've all heard some of
the horrors of um um workers in the meat packing industry. Um, you know,
the dangers involved in that and, you know, and also the exploitation of
those people. So sort of throughout the system, it's like we should have a
system where this is about our food, but we want to make sure people in
the food system are treated decently. And um, and I would put in there as
well that um, that, that system treats animals in a humane and, and caring
way. I mean, it seems to me if we're going to, you know, if we want to use
animals for our food system, we should, we should, you know, demand that,
that it also live up to our standards of what, uh, decent treatment for
animals, main treatment. I mean, right now we sort of segregate out. We
have our, how we treat pets, which we know and then we have, and then, and
then excluded from that kind of cruel treatment is, is a farm animal and
that, that, you know, I think it's just been easy for people not to sort
of, you know, turn a blind eye but from a values point of view that seems
like not a good idea.
Great. Do you want to hear about my last value? You're probably going, oh
my God. I was just counting in my head. I think that's four. You got one
more. Ok. This is a lecture on food. This is great. Yeah. Anyway, so the
fifth, the fifth value is um this idea of food sovereignty, which is a bit
of a buzzword. So, so I was a little worried about using that term. I mean
, it's being used in different kinds of contexts and it does mean slightly
different things. What I mean by it is that, um rather than just having a
kind of the right outcome or the just outcome or the good outcome that,
that people have a say in the process so that the food system is right now.
I think a lot of people feel sort of hopeless in our food system. They
send their kids to school and the kids eat crappy stuff at lunch and, and
then you know, the TV sells their kids more stuff and then they can't, you
know, you find out somebody was just telling me the other day there
sawdust in the, in our um Parmesan cheese. And it's like all these things
that you find that they don't have to label, right? Somebody told me also
that red wine puts some cheap red wine puts red dye in it, you know. So,
so there's a way in which our system is not transparent and people don't
have a since they, they don't feel like they're in control. So, so for me
, it's, it's about participatory justice or participatory, being able to
participate in the process, have a say in the system, have a say in what
goes on and, and, and have a right to um transparency, right? Uh And this
is, you know, we've all heard about the labeling issue with GMO. So it
seems like it's a, you know, a labeling issue about everything. Why
shouldn't we be able to know what's in our food? I mean, you would, you
would assume that just as what's in it is what you think was in it, but we
found out that's not always true. So, so I do think that that, that final
value is that all of us care about being able to kind of control um you
know, what happens to us and our family and our communities and, and right
now there's a of, you know, it's often a sense that these big corporations
are kind of controlling it and that's not to make them out to be evil, the
evil demons. But the point is there is a sense in which there are kind of
closed room doors being deals being done in, in Congress and it's not
always working out for the advantage of people right away. Yeah, that's
very interesting. And, and so, so I think it's fair to say then that, that
sustainability goes beyond this conservation. When you first hear the word
sustainability, there's sort of a tendency to think conservation or
preservation. Um Maybe you could say a little bit more about what that
means. Good. Yeah. And I think that's a good point of that. Conservation
isn't just about kind of preserving or conserving natural systems. I mean
, this is, this is one of the sort of debates that's, you know, has gone
on and, and maybe it's still going on to some degree is, you know, whether
or not, you know, humans are part of nature or humans are not part of
nature. I come down on the, look, humans are part of nature. And so if
we're conserving or preserving natural systems, we better preserve them
with us in it because we don't have any place to go, you know, and so, and
, and I also think that other view of that we take humans out of
environments now, that's not to say there that, that I'm, I'm, I'm
certainly in favor of, of preserving wilderness areas and so on. But I
also think that what we need to spend a lot of our ethical, you know, kind
of brain power and time thinking about is built environments um including
agricultural environments and, and recognize that we're preserving them
with us in it. And so it seems to me, sustainability is not just about
sustaining ecosystems, but is sustaining ecosystems with us in it and of
course, us in it that we are cultural beings, right? And we want to
preserve and sustain our cultures, our values, right? And so one of the
things that we try to do is pass on to the next generation, not only um
and you know, sort of ecosystems that aren't destroyed, but also values
that we think are important, right? And so that we like, we think in
America passing on our democratic traditions, right? We're passing on our
food traditions to our next generation. So that's, I think that wider
frame of sustainability to me is a, is a more accurate one. And I think it
um it then you can build in, you know, things that impact natural systems
like food, right?
Wait for that to go by. Yeah, I'm just a busy. That's all right. Well,
great. Thank you. That's, that's very helpful. Um So the next question
sort of gets back to your background, your educational background and, and
your community that you grew up in um were you ever involved in any kind
of sustainable organization, uh, growing up or can I, can I? Yeah. Yeah.
Absolutely. Yeah, we can take a break. Ok. So, um, just to sort of repeat
the question growing up and when you were going through your education, uh
, were you ever involved in any kind of sustainable organization, uh, in,
in your school or in your community? Um, well, I do remember the first
Earth Day in the, in the Bay area going out and cleaning, uh, the beaches
and there had been an oil slick and cleaning up the birds. Um, but that's
, I do remember that and then of course, I, you know, always thought of
myself as an environmentalist, but I don't know that I was actually
involved in, I can't think of those. I mean, involved now it looks like
nowadays people are do way more service volunteering when I was a kid. We
, we were pretty self centered. I don't remember doing any of that. I, I'm
always surprised with my students who come in and they've already saved
the world and they're only 18.
Yeah. So sorry, I don't have anything to say about that. That's great. But
you were cognizant of things and, yes. Yeah. I mean, that was sort of the
early days in the seventies. I remember, you know, some of it I was still
in, you know, certainly in, you know, in secondary school, um, primary and
secondary school about you know, sort of those early earth day and people
, you know, that awareness of, um, you know, our impact on the planet and
that we really need to, um, you know, change how we, um, you know, relate
to the world and, and it certainly has, um, you know, come a long way fro
from there, um, you know, sort of the anti littering message and then,
yeah, they say the oil slicks in California, Um And the impact of that on
the coastlines
disaster outside what's going on there. Uh Great, great. That's fantastic.
Um So part of this program that, that you've helped to put together uh
has the purpose of building bridges uh with other activists and
organizations. Um How do you go about doing that? OK. So we, um so WW what
grew out of this original group from the, from our, you know, human, you
know, humans or humanity's contribution to the Anthropocene was the idea,
our group wanted to uh figure out how we could really collaborate and
learn from people in the community. So often universities have this
relationship to the community that they're around or other communities
that, you know, we're sort of the experts, we're the people who know stuff
and we're gonna go tell you what to do. Um I think that model is really,
um you know, is, is wrong and, and distorts the picture. I think there's a
lot of local knowledge out there. A lot of um really creative, insightful
people out there. The problem is is trying to devise processes or
procedures to be able to um learn from each other, right? So this idea of
kind of collaborative learning or, or how it is that we can get people
with different, you know, not only different um different information but
different ways of knowing things too. So the idea of different
epistemology and how do we get those people to work on problems together?
Um And so one of the interesting things about something like food and, and
, and other problems in society is that they are what a lot of academics
are now calling kind of wicked problems. And the idea of that is that
people come to the problem and sort of think about what the problem is
differently. And so we were just talking about food, we were saying, you
know, I mean, there's, there's a problem of, of, um you know, food ski or
food insecurity and then there's a problem of, of, um you know, treatment
of, of, of, of workers in the system where there's problem. So there's all
these different problems and different people are gonna think that's kind
of the problem of food in America. And so one thing is is that the idea of
wicked problems, you don't have to resolve all those issues. People can
come at the problem from different, different kind of vantage points, but
you still could um come together and think about it and not, you're not
going to resolve the problem but you might um you know, alleviate it, push
it down, make it better and um and then keep kind of iterating that
process and, and, and working on it. So that was the idea of, of trying to
design a process by which we could collaborate with people in the
community. And I wouldn't want to call them all activists. I mean, some of
them are farmers, some of them um you know, work in food banks, some of
them are people who work for the government, you know, you know, working
in um you know, farm policy, some are working on um you know, uh
children's access to, you know, food in the school. So, I mean, it's the
idea is, is that all these people uh have uh expertise, have a vantage
point and are all concerned about the food system. So, and so part of it
is to try to think up a process by which we can learn from one another and
try to come to solutions for the food problems of our area. So is there um
is there any uh maybe techniques or strategies that you use on the ground
to reach out to different organizations or, or different activist people?
Um Well, we've been um you know, reaching out, you know, part of it is,
you know, got a few people who are intrigued with the ideas and they know
people and they connect us with other people. So, part of it is, or we,
you know, there's somebody who does something and we, you know, think, oh
, we should contact that person because we need that sort of perspective
or that kind of expertise. And so the idea is sort of just mushrooming out.
Um, you know, I hope we're not, um, you know, leaving any big gaps in the
process. One of the things that I've thought is if we, as we proceed ahead
and we're gonna have this event, dinner 2040 um event where we're all
gonna get together. Um But I thought that, that we, you know, that might
be a process of iterating that process, right? So that it's not just we do
it once and we've, so because I don't think we're gonna solve, we're not
gonna solve the problem. Um But the idea that we've set up a process and
we've also made a lot of connections and they, and they've made
connections with each other. So it's so it's not like they have to conduit
back through us. But the point is that we've sort of set up a forum, we've
set up a, a AAA mechanism that people, diverse, people from different
areas can sit down and um, and, and, and explore the topic together and um
, and really listen to each other. Great, great. Thank you. Um So why do
you think, uh it sounds like uh one of the goals is to build a solid
network then sort of an expansive network and get everybody sort of
thinking along the same lines. And why do you think that's important to
the future of food? It's sort of a simple question. But, um, what, what do
you think? So, the, the, you know, the problem of food is not gonna be
solved? Um, well, it's not gonna be solved by the university and it's not
gonna be solved by any one person and it's probably not gonna be solved
permanently anyway. But the point is we can make it better. Um, if we have
, um, you don't have these different vantage points and these different
perspectives and as I say, some of those perspectives may even see the
problem differently. But that's not to say we can't find some, some sorts
of things that we would say. Yeah, we have to, we have to work on getting
that done and this done. And the point is, there's some, there are some
points that, that people can, can see are, are real problems. And I think
getting people to see that they can have a voice and, um, uh, a voice in
the system is, is, is, is, is really going to go a long way to changing
the system because I think people feel pretty disempowered, right. So that
brings up another question then, um, because it seems like with, with this
network and, and with all the involvement that people might have different
priorities of, of what, what problems the biggest, what should we solve
now? What can we solve now? So how do you decide how to go about that? How
do you identify, uh, which problem to address? And if there's an order,
how do you decide on that order? That's a good question. Um So what, what
, what, what we decided to do was to focus on 25 years out rather than
looking at all the problems of the food system, which we can name, you
know, hundreds of them, you know, and we kind of know a lot of them. Why
don't we as a group envision what we'd like it to look like in 25 years?
Like, what would, what would we like it to look like? Now? You know, I
think that people would agree that we need to kind of have these values
that I set out as guiding, you know, kind of parameters, right? That um
but what do we want it to look like? I mean, how do we want it to function
? Um You know, I mean, it, it's all these kind of details about. So let's
kind of play around with that idea of envisioning 20 dinner, 2040. That's
our ideas. Like, let's look at um what the food system would look like,
what dinner would we eat in 2040? And then, then the idea is to, so we're
gonna, the idea is to engage in this kind of process that's referred to as
a charette where you, um, you do what's called back casting. So the idea
is you want to get some place in 25 years, what would you have to have in
place? Five years from now? 10 years from now, 15 years from now, you know
, and so on. Right. Because you don't get, he's like you want to be a
brain surgeon. You, you, you don't, you know, just get there, you know. Oh
, first of all, I've got to go, go to under, you know, get an
undergraduate degree and then I've got it right. So you have your end and
go and you could, you could map out what are all the steps you have to do
, you know, including a fellowship. And, right. So, so the idea is that
you would do something like that. Now, of course, so that, so that's the
basic idea is that you get people to see, ok, we're not gonna get there
tomorrow. But what can we do to get on the path? Right. And, um, and what
are those steps now? That's a, that is a complicated issue. I'm not saying
it's easy but I think it gets people, first of all, seeing that, you know
, change doesn't happen overnight, but change does happen if you start it
, right. And you also start to see, you know, how things could get in
place in a few years. And then how that would allow you to get to the next
step and the next step, um, now that still doesn't address, you know, sort
of priorities. Some, some things may fall out that in order to have one
thing happen, we have to, um, change a law or we have to get a
distribution network with some refrigerated trucks to get food that would
spoil to poor people or we have to. Right. I mean, so there are, there are
some things that we might, um, you know, come to. Yeah, and so, and, and,
and, and the point is not to come to a kind of, you know, big consensus on
everything, but rather to, um, see that there are that, that people, even
people who are in diverse areas can, can, you know, can, you know, they
might hear, you know, an issue that you, you think is really important
that, hey, I didn't know about that issue. I didn't know that was
happening. Yeah, we ought to, we ought to think about how to resolve that.
So some of it is, you know, kind of consciousness raising just learning
about, you know, what, what some of the issues are and then how we start
to solve them. So, um, yeah, we're not gonna, you know, this little event
isn't gonna change everything but, but part of, um, you know, is, is, is,
is seeing that we need to have processes like this in place if we're gonna
make real change. Right. And, and so, uh you talk about sort of obstacles
or challenges that could come up, um, can you identify any specific
challenges that, that you've already come up against with in regards to
food sustainability?
Well, um there are, um, you know, like a lot of problems there are, you
know, um entrenched um economic incentives, um, you know, in place and,
you know, again, you don't have to, you know, vilify, you know, big um,
companies necessarily. But the point is those are, those are powerful
forces and they're hard to change. Right. It's sort of like you've got a,
you know, a, um, a big cruise liner and you're trying to turn it around,
right? And people say this about big ag in America, you know, industrial
agriculture is, it's a big thing to turn around, right. Um, and that's
where, um, you know, you may not have to, you know, you're not going to do
all that but if you can start to do smaller things, you know, bigger
change comes from small change, you know, I mean, and I think if you think
you have to, um, you know, change the whole thing, well, that, for one
thing that's not how change happens, right? I mean, it does happen by, um
, by people showing a different way, other people getting interested in it
and, and, you know, so, so I think, um, but, but, you know, the, the, the
, the food industry has become a big business and it has become a big
global business. And so if the community wants to change it, you really,
you know, so you, you're up against those kinds of things. Um And, uh so,
so that seems to be a big issue. Um I mean, there are a lot of challenges
, uh you know, and that's, you know, I mean, it may be the, and of course
what, what I'm coming at it. I mean, I'm a philosopher, I'm a human, you
know, I'm in the humanities and this whole project and this idea was that
is, is trying to keep it in people's minds that these are not solely
technical problems, right? To keep it in people's mind that food is more
than, than just a technical problem. Right. And I think that we got sort
of, um, sidetracked in our food system when we started looking at it just
as a kind of science problem, you know, techno, oh, look at all the food
we're producing, you know, we're seeing all these calories, but look, look
what the result was, um, as opposed to seeing food is connected up with
culture and meaning and place and, um, and all those other things that,
you know, that the way we all experience food. Right. Right. We don't
experience it. I mean, maybe there's a few, you know, kind of nutty, a ath
athletes who, you know, just think about when they're just you know,
taking their protein powder or something to think about it, but most of us
think about food for taste and experience and sitting with people and
eating food and, you know, all the other kinds of joys of, of food in our
lives. Right? Ok. Um, great. So, so that brings us now to the, the project
that we've sort of been referring to throughout the interview, which is
the dinner 2040. Could you tell us what that is specifically? Yeah. So
this is the project that grew out of our, um our project here at a su and
um and the idea of it is to um you know, take, you know, humanists and
other, you know, artists and then with um community people in the food
system of, in various ways, everything from farmers to food bank workers
to legislators to, you know, um all, all the people that impact the food
system and get them together to um to envision uh what our food system
should look like in 25 years. And so we've planned an event um in November
, uh in which we'll have people come out to um an urban farm that will
have um have the event and we're going to have people at different tables
and there'll be mixed tables of people representing different aspects of
the food system and there'll be a humanist there and we'll really work
through um this, this idea of, you know, first kind of envisioning
together as a group, what we want to see. And of course, along the way
with that, envisioning people are often going to bring up, you know,
things that, uh, what's wrong with this system. But part of it is that,
you know, to have that kind of spilling out of ideas, um, they talk about
faucet thinking. So you just sort of get the ideas out and don't, um,
don't sort of overthink it. Um And then, um the idea is to go through
another couple of steps, you know, one might look at, you know, what are
some of the challenges to getting there? And then finally, how, what steps
can we take to get there and sort of think about that back casting idea of
, you know, where, what do, what do we need to do now? What do we need to
do in five years? And so the idea is that you as a group kind of work
through, you know, what are some of the things that we could do um to
start on that road to getting to, to that envisioned place? Um So we see
this as an idea of, uh we mentioned sort of consciousness raising kind of
learn from one another. Um You know, sharing the, you know, what people's
views about the problem are. Um And um, you know, and, and what some of
the challenges are, but then also, um you know, really thinking together
about how we make change and how we um you know, make a more positive um
food system going forward, right? Uh So how long would you say that you
and, and uh the, the other people involved, how long have, have you been
working on this? Well, we've been working on it actually a couple of years
now. Um As I say, we started out by um doing this as part of this larger
project and then we actually held a charrette uh a couple of years ago and
brought in some community work with some community members, um some local
farmers um and we went through the charette process and we developed um
meals that we would eat in 2040. So there, we were sort of focused on what
we, what would a meal look like. And we found the process really worked.
It was very um uh evocative. Um and, you know, allowed people to work
together in a really um constructive way and um develop interesting
solutions. OK. Uh What was the decision or what was the reasoning behind
the 25 years? Why? 2040? Well, so, yeah, so why, why 25 years? Um I mean,
the, the, if you, if you think when you're talking about sustainability,
one of the challenges of talking about sustainability is what's the, what
scale are we talking about? Sometimes people talk about scales, you talk
to people that work in nuclear power, for example, they're often talking,
I mean, nuclear waste will be around for, um, you know, I mean, they talk
about things like 10,000 years, you know, 20,000 years that, that waste
will still be there. Um That's a kind of scale that I think is so out of
human framework that I don't think it's very productive to, to, to, to
talk in those very large scales of time. Often people refer to that as
kind of geological time as opposed to human time. So thinking about it and
I'm a moral philosopher, I mean, you know, and trying to think of what is
it that can motivate people morally, to act in certain ways. I think we,
we, we're morally motivated when we can sort of connect um emotionally and
, and to some degree, intellectually, we can understand, you know, what
things would be like. And we also feel like we can kind of emotionally
connect, um that, that I think the 25 year frame, you know, it is, is a
framework that makes sense in that way. Um You know, it's our, um it's our
Children, maybe it's our grandchildren, you know, but I mean, the point is
, it's, and it's us, right. I mean, a lot of us feel like we'll still be
around for 25 years. Some people maybe not. But, but the point is you
don't feel like it's something that you won't experience. And so, um or
your, your kids won't experience. Uh So, and I think another, another
aspect of this and this is something I'm learning from my history
colleagues is that looking back 25 years from now, our food system that we
have now was created by policies that were put in place 25 years from now
25 years ago, right? So it has, so there is a, there is an effect on where
we are now from what happened 25 years ago. So, um and this is where
history comes in, right? Is that you can see that uh you know, what we do
now is really is gonna impact us going forward, like what, you know, you
know, what policy decisions we make, how we treat the soil, how we treat
our water supply, how, you know, how, what we do with migrant labor. I
mean, all these things, we had policies 25 years ago and got us in this
situation. And so what we do now, so 25 years has a lot of um I think
residents, residents in that way and there's, there really is a kind of
historical argument for thinking in that kind of a chunk of time. Great.
So it sounds like the, the Dinner 2040 project um has uh sort of a
practicality to it. So a lot of times when you hear about environmental
movements or environmental projects, the critique is that it's just
unreasonable, is that sort of an intent that you, that you had and, and
the other folks that helped you start this is that you wanted to have a
very practical outlook, something that people could, could relate to. Yeah
, I, I think that, um, um, some environmentalists have put themselves, uh
, so far out in terms of human concerns that they often, I mean, I think
one of the ways in which the idea of the, you know, radical
environmentalists came up is because there were, you know, some people
claiming that they'd rather, you know, save a rattlesnake rather than a
human or something. So it's sort of that idea that, you know, humans are
kind of parasitic on the environment. And I say that seems to me, um not
uh not accurate and, and not, um, and also not pragmatic, I mean, if we
want to see real change in how we protect and conserve the environment,
then we need to see that we're part of that environment. Humans are part
of that environment and we, and we live here. And so we need to figure out
ways to have a kind of ethic about that use. And so, um you know, one of
the reasons that, you know, I'm always attracted to Aldo Leopold's work is
he talks, you know, about the land ethic and it really is a, um, you know
, he was focused to a large extent on how farmers and, and other people
who use the land, how they use the land and saw them as major
conservationists. So, um, so it's not about just preserving wilderness and
again against wilderness. But, but I think we would do a lot more for the
environment if we figured out systems for, um, for taking care of the land
we use. Right. So, uh, so you're trying to involve not just like humanists
and, and academic folks, but also people who maybe use the land, uh, as a
way of life. Whereas, you know, many humanists and, and academics sort of
see the land as uh uh either a recreational thing or, or um sometimes a
religious thing or spiritual thing. But, but you're trying to add a
practical element to it, to involve as many people as possible. Is, is
that fair to say? Yeah, I think we need to um uh uh you know, in, in
focusing on a land ethic, we need to not only think about uh preserving,
you know, wild areas for recreation, a spiritual renewal. Um you know, and
, and even, um you know, biodiversity but, but rather that we need to
think about those uh those environments in which we inhabit and that, you
know, of course, we, you know, I mean, you know, humans always inhabited
wilderness. I mean, this is sort of the mythology there was, you know, I
mean, native people lived, lived there. So it wasn't like without people,
but that became the kind of, um, you know, a kind of mythical view that,
that you know, um, the sort of colonists got on to and, and of course,
pushed native people out so they could preserve wilderness, right? Rather
than seeing that, that those people lived in those environments. But, but
we live, you know, so there's wilderness and then there's also, of course
, you know, um, you know, aarian landscapes, uh we have, you know, farmers
and ranchers using the land. Um We have suburban landscapes, we have urban
landscapes and this kind of whole continuum of landscapes, most of which
are all of which were in, right? Except for, you know, maybe an Arctica or
something. But so, um so we need to think about the land ethic in all
those contexts, right? We need to think about urban environments and how
we can um use those in responsible ways, including I think, you know, more
and more people are talking about having food systems, growing food in
those urban environments as well as suburban environments may again, you
know, how can we integrate food systems into our built environments and
then all, all the way out to Aarian context and, and ranch context. Great
, great. Thank you. Uh Tell, tell me about your role in dinner 2040.
OK. Well, I um maybe became sort of the unwitting leader, leader of the
group, but I'm not really, but I don't, I don't know how it, you know, but
anyway, so I um you know, and, and it, and it was an intriguing idea. I
mean, I, I'm a philosopher so I don't, I haven't, you know, I don't
necessarily do a lot of community work, although I, I've enjoyed what
we've done so far and I've actually learned a lot from getting to know
farmers and policy makers and people that are working in the food system.
So I'm already feel like I'm a beneficiary of this process because I have
a committee of people I'm working with and, and we also had that first
show read. And so I, I really have learned a lot and, and it's, and it's
taught me that, you know, the academy needs to open up and, um and, and
really figure out processes where we can get the community engaged in the
research, not just in the way we sometimes do it where it's kind of bring
one community member in and then not really listen to them, but really see
them as having a kind of knowledge that is, is important and um that we
can learn from and that, you know, we probably have something to
contribute to. But the point is we can really learn from one another. And
so, um so I, so I sort of ended up sort of the leader of this group. And
then I started thinking about these values and sort of was able to kind of
articulate those five values because as a moral philosopher, I think about
values. So, um and I thought that it it makes sense to get people to see
that their food system. And we often talk about when you make consumer
choices that there's a value behind that you may not know it but try to
get people to often articulate what, what they're doing when they do it.
And that, and I think in this way, I'd like to have people when they think
about the food system to recognize the values involved in it. So, if you
buy a, um, you know, I mean, you know, there's more and more attention to
how animals are raised, you buy, um, you know, products that are, um, you
know, raised in a way that, that the animals are treated cruelly. I mean,
you should recognize that, you know, you're, you know, you, you, you're
part of that process now by and you can choose to do otherwise, right? Or
if you, and even, you know, things like organic food, I mean, it's, um,
you know, organic, you know, and there's a big debate whether it's better
for you or not. I think it's pretty clear, it's better for the, for the
environment. So, you know, you don't want to get into the weather, it's
better for you. It's better for the soil, it's better for the environment.
So, so you might buy it on that ground. You might say it's a little more
expensive. But, you know, I'm, I'm gonna, I wanna participate. So the
point is that you're, you're buying you, you know, you're using your
dollars to, to express your values. And so, um, so that was my role or it
has been to really try to keep those value, um, front and center and I
don't, it's not a hard sell. I just think it's, people haven't thought
about it. They haven't thought that, that there's all these values
floating around with what they eat and so on. Yeah. Absolutely. Great. Um
, So why would you say dinner 2040 is important to the community? Well, I
think, um I think communities and I'm, you know, we're, we're gonna do
this in Phoenix. But uh and I think other communities should do something
similar that it's important that the community get engaged in what their
food system looks like and also uh get empowered to make the change, right
? And um because I think there's a lot of, um you know, feeling
dissatisfied and feeling like it's a bit out of control and it's not what
they want for them or their kids or even their communities. And um and I
think that this process will have, you know, that one outcome of just
having people recognize that there is a role that they can play and, and
that can, that can be that there's obviously multiple things that, that
might mean. But the point is you're not that, that, that you can have a um
can be empowered in the system.
Um So, so you said that this is uh sort of this project is, is centered on
Phoenix. Is that what we were doing was um or are doing, as you'd say, um
Is we like to think of this process of Dinner 2040 as a kind of template
or a model? So what we're hoping is that other communities will take it on.
We've had a few communities kind of say they were going to do it. So
we're hoping that they will. And that, um the idea is that other
communities would say, hey, let's, yeah, let's look at our food system,
let's get together, you know, some humanists, some artists, some farmers,
some policy, you know, all the people that you think you ought to have at
that, that meeting and have them get together and uh go through this
process and again, we're trying to make it a kind of positive process of
envisioning um the, the future and then talking about how we get there.
Great. Are you aware of any other communities or any other places in the
country that are doing something similar or, or is this unique to I think
that this, this, well, well, there are places talking about the future of
food. Um I don't, I haven't seen anybody doing it sort of establishing a
kind of date. And then, I mean, so, but people are kind of talking more
generally about the future of food. Um Some of that is, is more kind of
writ large. It's, it's, you know, uh in fact, uh I know at Johns Hopkins
they're doing a project that's kind of, you know, how to designing the
future global food system at a much more kind of global level. Um I think
I know the guy that's working on that, but um I am pretty convinced now
that um though there are more national and international issues, I, I
think that there's an importance in getting um communities engaged and
making sure that there are kind of community solutions. And I don't think
that every solution that would be um that we shouldn't universalize the
the solution, right? Because then otherwise you, you, you, you know, you
run over culture and history, you run over place based ecological
differences, right? You run, I mean, so the problem is that when we do
that, we often something we import certain foods to grow here that worked
in the Midwest, they're great in the Midwest. You got lots of water there
, you got a whole different soil composition, blah, blah, blah. But so I
think we have to be careful about that idea of, of scalability or, or
taking a solution that works in one place and um doing it in another place.
So the degree to which this is scalable, it's that the template could
work, the template could work other places that we could take it and other
communities could use it and that then that starts them on a process of
planning. Right. And that's what really this is about. Great. And, and, uh
, you said that, uh, some other communities are sort of paying attention
to this. Sharing. Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm so, I, um, I think one,
I think it's, um, I think it's because we, we had people from around the
country who were part of our group and I think 11 is, um, uh, Eugene
Oregon and, um, um,
um, a town in Illinois which I can't think of where the University of
Illinois is. Oh, it's embarrassing. I can't remember what it is. Is it, uh
, Urbana? It might be Bonna anyway. Yeah. Yeah, somewhere in Illinois.
And then I thought, um, another one of our group was in Taiwan and that
some of that in Taiwan they were thinking about taking on. So we haven't
really made a big push to, to get it out there. Um, I, I think as we go
forward we would, um, and in particular, once we do ours, then we can kind
of push it out through social media. Our idea was to almost see if
communities might, uh, take it on as a kind of challenge, you know, to
have their community do it too and, and, and then post their results sort
of, and so part of this is that we'd like to have a, a website and, um,
where we could post, you know, our, what our outcomes, but also our
ongoing efforts. But also then if other communities were doing it, we
could post their results as well. Great. Fantastic. So just expanding that
network. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And through social networks and so on, we could
push out the idea. I mean, that's part of it is just getting people to, to
hear about it and know about it. Great. So the last one, the last question
is sort of a personal question, but what does dinner 2040 mean to you,
you can handle this anywhere you want. Uh Well, I mean, it started out as
a kind of academic exercise, you know, we were part of an academic group
on a project and um and we were talking about multiple epistemology and we
were talking about all kinds of highfalutin stuff and now it's become very
, um you know, community engaged and um a lot of people are excited about
it. And uh so it's really, for me, it's been a kind of personal journey of
, you know, meeting people in the food system in the valley and hearing
about their stories and hearing about their, their excitement around this
idea. And um so, you know, that's been kind of personally gratifying that
we've sort of pushed, you know, put this out there and it seems to be
resonating. Um We have chefs interested in working with us on it. We have
people who wanna come and wanna wanna participate in it. So it's kind of
developed into something that, that uh resonates with people. And I think
it's partly um uh there's something kind of evocative about the idea of
thinking about dinner in 25 years. And um and also thinking about, you
know, our role in making something good happen. And again, I think there's
something about thinking about the positive um and how we attain
sustainability rather than focusing on all the things that's wrong with
our system. And in a way, it doesn't give you a kind of vision of where we
want to go. So I think this, this, this has been, this is this has been
something that I didn't really expect to be that um enticing, but it, but
it's turned out to be, in fact, ii a group of us in through GEOS through,
through the Food Systems Transformation initiative, went to Africa to work
with young African agricultural entrepreneurs, um a few 100 of them and I
ran a workshop there and did this process with them. And um it was very
fascinating because, you know, getting them to, to think in their context.
And these are, you know, you know, young people who have, who have ideas
either to be farmers or somehow or rather in the agricultural chain, you
know, um uh supply chain that they um think about where they want their
food system to be in 25 years. And they have, you know, you think of
challenges. I mean, you know, real challenges. But it, it was a really, it
was a really engaged conversation. We had about 60 of them at different
tables working together. And, um, again, it was, they, they, you know,
they really got energized thinking about where they wanted to go, where
they wanted to go and be in 25 years and then it got them thinking about
what they could do to get there, right. How they could see their role in
it. And um, and so it was uh kind of exciting to see this idea work, you
know, in, in an entirely different context.
All right. Well, thank you so much for all this, sir. And uh yeah.