Today is August 28th, 2015. My name is Christine Barra Malaney
interviewing for Arizona State University for the Dinner 2040 project.
Good morning. Could I ask or afternoon? Could I ask you to tell me your
name and your title, please? I am Ashley Shimi. I work with the Arizona
Department of Education in their health and nutrition services division.
And I work on farm to school and school garden development. So let's talk
a little bit about your background. Can you tell me a little bit about
where you were raised? I'm an Arizona native, born and raised here in the
Phoenix area actually. Um Never really lived anywhere else. I've lived in
Tempe, I now live in Gilbert and I've lived in Phoenix. So I know the
Valley. Well, um I was born in Good Sam Hospital downtown. Um
So let's talk about um kind of where you grew up and kind of your family
and the values that they, that they shared with you, especially about
health and cooking. And so I am one of five Children. Um My, I have an
older brother and then I have fun fact. Um three other siblings that are
the same age as me. I'm a quadruplet, so I'm one of four.
Mom and dad def definitely didn't plan to have four in one shot. Um But
they did. And so because of that, um when dad, dad's an engineer, he he
when he was first starting his career, you know, you don't always make a
lot of money up front and my mom's a teacher. Um and she, when we were
growing up, stayed home, she was a stay at home mom, take care of all five
of us. Um, so Costco was our grocery store, our food for less. That's
where we shopped. Um, we bought a lot of canned food or a lot of uh frozen
food. A lot of, um, I remember one of the things, the things that I hate
now, but I totally understand and respect why mom bought it then. Um, is
like those flaked potatoes, those dehydrated potatoes. Um I think we all,
all five of us kids now completely appreciate real potatoes that you can,
you know, mash up. And so mashed potatoes are, um, just kind of one of
those special things in our life now that we probably appreciate more now
because we grew up on those flaked potatoes. Um I think I've always,
always enjoyed food. Um, from a very young age I, my mom always cooked, we
cooked all the time. We rarely went out to eat. We just didn't have the
money for that. Um, so we always ate at home. Um And so I think I just saw
mom cooking in the kitchen and found that to be interesting. I had an easy
bake oven as a kid and as anyone who's worked with an easy bake oven, it's
annoying. It takes forever to make one thing. But as a kid you don't care
, you're just like in 30 minutes I'm gonna have a very tiny brownie. It's
fine. I thought I was gonna start like a um a business with, among my, my
siblings and I was gonna make uh we played a lot of make believe games. I
guess that's what you do when you're a kid and we had baby dolls and stuff
and I was going to be the baker for the, the baby doll birthdays
and use fake money, I suppose to barter with that. But um, so that's funny.
But somewhere along the lines, mom was like, why don't you just bake for
real in the kitchen with real cooking equipment? And I jumped at the
chance to do that. And so, um probably throughout high school, uh mom and
dad were very uh nice and bought a lot of whatever I needed to make,
whatever I felt like making um I guess it was two fold like sweet. We
don't have to make something and you can make it for us and um you enjoy
this. So we're gonna go ahead and let you do that. Um So Costco flour bags
were, you know, something in the freezer and, you know, if it didn't work
out, it's not the end of the world. Um I always remember that being I was
, I feel very fortunate looking back at that mom and dad really supporting
that. I, at one point I thought I was gonna go to culinary school and then
I didn't know if I had the thick skin and the drive to like kind of excel
and be at that place where you get to create. Um a lot of, a lot of people
who go through culinary school, I feel like are kind of stuck in because
going out to eat is such a big deal. These days, there's so many
restaurants and so the competition to be a chef is, is super strict and
cut throat. And I just didn't want to be that mean cut throat person to
have to get through the layers of competitiveness um to make it into that
place where you get to be the executive chef and um create really
innovative dishes. And so I was like, maybe, maybe that's not for me. Um
which I think pleased my dad, dad was not really thrilled with the idea of
me not going to college. Given dad had a master's and mom was working on
her master's. But um
mom was supportive, she's like, whatever is going to make you happy. Um So
I ended up coming to a su um, and I decided I was gonna open up a jazz
club because I also have a background in music. I play trombone and II, I
also didn't think I had the skill per se to, to make it big and, and be
the musician that would actually bring in money. And I didn't really want
to be a music teacher. So I decided I would go to business school and I
would learn to hire the best chefs and hire the best musicians. And I
would create this place that, um, celebrated jazz music in a way that I
didn't think existed in the world today. Uh, looking back now with all the
, the quote unquote hipsters that are about and, and all of the, um, old
fashioned drinks that are kind of trendy right now. I probably would have
been successful, at least for a little while had I stuck with that. But
somewhere along the way, um, in my business degree, we had to take a
certain amount of science classes to round out our programming. Um, so I
chose to take things like botany and anatomy and somewhere along the way,
I took a class called, I can't even remember the title perfectly, but it
had something to do with health care innovations or something like that.
And I was like, well, that sounds cool. I mean, most of the class was
about insurance, which I tell you is not my cup of tea, but there was
something that struck me. Um when I and I was still on business track at
that point that stuck out to me and they had talked about nutrition being
a field that people study. Um And that it is a preventative measure to
reduce health care costs. And I didn't know much about health care costs
or even really realize the epidemic that we were living in um with obesity
and all of that. Um And so that's kind of where I was like, I don't think
I like business. I didn't really like the people that I was going to
school with a lot of the kids I went to school with just wanted to make a
lot of money and they didn't really have like a personal or passionate
drive to change the world in any particular way. And I was like, that
can't be all you want in this life. There's got to be more than money. Um
There's no way that money could make me happy. And I, I guess I knew that
from, from a young age. But um, so I decided to switch my major to
nutrition with the, I, I had some encouragement from my sister Erin um to
switch my major to nutrition, which, you know, I had to kind of start all
over. I didn't have a whole lot of classes that really, um converted over
to nutrition school, which was fine. I didn't care I just wanted to do
something that I cared about. And, um, I really like nutrition. Actually.
I really, I've always, I don't want to get like emotional but, um, I
always struggled with body image as a kid. I was probably overweight since
third grade. Um, and I always was curious about
how food impacted the body. And I think for a long time to God, I didn't
mean to talk about this. Um, I think I always thought that you were kind
of dealt in one card in life and that you don't have a whole lot of room
to control it. So I kind of grew up with like the fat kid and I thought
that's just what I, that's just the card that you had dealt. Oh, my gosh.
Sorry. Um, so for a long time I didn't think that I had any control over
that I was overweight. Um, my heaviest, I won't quote numbers but I was
pretty heavy freshman year of college and just kind of thought, well,
that's who I am. I have to be. If I want to stand out, I have to be, you
know, like the funny fat girl or something like that. If I, if I thought I
had anything, it was creativity. And, um, I was sometimes funny. So that's
what I had to give to the world and, um, obviously I think differently now.
But, um, yeah, so it was interesting, I, I found out with nutrition
school that, you know, while we all have predispositions to certain body
types or genetic disorders, what have you, um, a healthy diet and a
healthy active lifestyle are definitely something that has more to do than
how the world views you from a physical standpoint. You know, um being
healthy and physically active also um impacts your longevity and quality
of life. Um It helps you if you feel your body right? It helps you to, to
meet certain goals. Like I'm currently training to run for my second
marathon. A lot of people think I'm crazy and some days I think I'm crazy
too because you're out there for hours hashing out those miles. Um But I
think that's just a testament to kind of celebrating that your body is
healthy and that it can do these things that sound outlandish and crazy,
especially in August. It's so hot right now. Um But yeah, anyway, so I, I
switched from business to nutrition and I kind of fell in love. So, so I'm
gonna take you back just a little bit about the cooking and baking and
what is it about um baking that kind of that you loved it so much and they
actually encouraged you by buying the ingredients and everything. What was
it about um baking that you loved? That's something that's really hard to
describe. Actually, I think there's just something really satisfying with
cooking or baking your own food and baking is what I started out doing
probably because who doesn't like cake and cookies. Um, some people, and
I've learned to not indulge in those too much. But, um, I don't know,
especially around the holidays, like baking. My mom used to make a big
deal about baking cookies for your neighbors or like, for people at church.
And so we would, we would spend like two days baking cookies, like, for
all day and we'd have cookies everywhere. And so, you know, we have fun
making them and now we have to give them out to all of our neighbors and
to people at church. And, um, that was fun. I mean, it's kind of, you
spend time with family, I guess you're spending time with people that you
care about and you're spending time doing this activity that is
indescribably satisfying and fun. Um, and then at the end of it all, you
know, you're not just keeping it for yourself, you're giving it to someone
else, which makes them feel special because, you know, when you look at
something like a cookie that is really pretty to look at and hopefully
very tasty. Uh, you know, the person feels special if you like, oh, you
spent time out of your day to think of me or to, you know, make sure that
I felt special. And so if that's not really a direct answer, but that's,
uh, I think that's what's fun. And in high school, actually, I I had this
habit of when it was someone's birthday, a friend's birthday. I would, I
would, even if it was three in the morning. Right. As a high school
student I'd be like, I got to, got to make this thing and, you know,
luckily my family tolerated me, I'd be like, in the kitchen making stuff
and I just wanted people to feel special. It was their day and, uh, my
family either tolerated it or encouraged it one or the other. Um, and so I
guess that's, I guess that's probably why I think it's, it's fun. I'm a
very service oriented person makes me feel better to make someone else
feel better. So I guess that's why. So tell me about, um, you have a large
family. So tell me about the meals or any special meal that you all
celebrated or coming together and sitting down and eating at the table and
what that meant. So, um, when my dad was growing up and I keep forgetting
which state it's either, I think it's Iowa. He moved around a fair amount.
His dad was a math teacher but a math teacher in church. So, so he would
move around depending on where he was called to work. Um, and at one point
when my dad was in high school, I think it was early high school. He, my,
my grandfather decided I'm not going to teach right now. I'm going to make
more money. Uh, my dad grew up with a large family and not a whole lot of
money and they just, I'm going, I'm going to start my own business. I'm
going to open up a pizza and sub shop. And so some of my favorite foods
are the foods that he make, make at home. And, um, so he makes like an
Italian sub sandwich that you see everywhere. It's like capicola ham, like
salami pepperoni, like Pepperoncini tomatoes, all that delicious. Um, and
he also makes, and this is what I think the family really remembers dad
for is, um, pizza. We would make pizza, the dough that he would make and
the sauce that he would make and then we all would just make whatever kind
of pizza we want. But it's just, that's such a process to make your own
pizza from scratch, especially when there's like, you know, whatever Pizza
Hut or whatever down the road. Um, that it's, we didn't do it very often.
And so that was very special to do at home. And now, um, we do that
Christmas Eve.
So, um, and I think, I think of meals that dad made because dad didn't
cook as much as mom did. And so maybe that why is why it was more special.
But, um, mom's happy because she's not cooking and she's getting food and
we're all happy because we get to help in some way and, um, dad's pizza
crust just tastes better. I don't know, what was it like to help in the
kitchen? What, what is that? You know, did you enjoy? Most kids were like
, no, I don't want to do that, but, you know, why did you enjoy helping in
the kitchen with when your dad was cooking or your mom? Um,
I think that's probably where I probably felt most connected to mom and
dad maybe. Um,
I guess, um, I, I would say even now that my sisters probably connect best
with my mom. Like, they kind of share just more about their life with mom
right now and I'm just kind of like, I'll let, I'll let you know what you
need to know. And, um, II, I enjoy quality time with, with someone more
than I enjoy, like, calling and letting you know what's going on in my
life. Although now I'm realizing that maybe as we grow up, that's just as
important because there's not as much one on one time. But, um, and then
with dad, um,
dad's not one to necessarily hang out with you while you're at home. He's
not, there has to be a purpose almost to your, your one on one time. And
so that meant a bike ride. If that means playing games on the computer or
watching a movie, then that's all fine. Um, but if he's not interested in
whatever activity it is that's going on, he's not necessarily going to
join you. I mean, sometimes he will and he's getting better. But, um, so I
think for me cooking with mom and dad is important because that's
something that all of us can connect on and we all enjoy that activity.
And so that's probably why. So let's talk about when you decided to switch
, uh, to nutrition. Uh, a big change from business. Yes. Just a little bit
of switch. Um, why, how did you know that this was the route you wanted to
go? Um Well, my sister pointed, I was between kinesiology or nutrition and
nutrition or kinesiology. Both interested me just because I, I think they
both impacted the body or, or could at least guide me to um understand
this kind of giant issue that I didn't really understand, which was my
body image issues. And um my sister convinced me to go with some food
because it's what I kind of just gravitated towards naturally. Um And I
enjoyed learning about that. I still enjoy learning anything I can learn
about food and the food system. Um And so it was kind of a no brainer once
my sister helped point that out to me that this was this has always been
something you've been fascinated by. And so why not go to school? Um and
learn about it. So, and, and from the beginning, like one of the first
classes you take is nutrition, 241 or something like like a basic human
nutrition, you learn about all the nutrients kind of informally and you
learn about how that impacts the body. And it's, it's honestly a lot of
information up front if you knew nothing about metabolism or nutrition, um
it's a lot to learn at one time. Um But as you go through the program, you
kind of tease out um certain disorders and certain uh nutrients and how
that metabolizes in the body. And it's, it's quite frankly fascinating,
although I can understand why some people just don't need to know that
much about food and why like I need to eat my vegetables and things like
that. Some people just, it's just food. I just need it to fuel me so I can
do these things that I love. But um I'm kind of a nerd in that way and I
just wanna know, I just wanna know why, what do you think attribute you,
what attributes that fascination with the food with food and learning
about it that fueled you to, to make the switch?
Um I think this kind of goes back to cooking and one of the first cooking
, one of the first classes you take too in nutrition is a cooking class.
So you learn about um the mallard reaction about the browning of toast or
the browning of meat and the chemical reaction that's taking place there.
And you realize that, you know, math and science have a purpose because
now it's being tied to cooking or before outside of that. It's not very
fascinating to me to talk about, um, che chemical rea, you know? Ok, great.
We made ammonia. It smells gross. And I don't, I don't really care, you
know, but when you're talking about a cooking reaction and it's related to
food, which is related to people, I think that's then a connection that
I'm really on board with and now I care about the chemistry behind that
all. And so, um I think it's just, it was something I thought I would
really enjoy. It was certainly hard. I won't say it was easy. Um But I
think it was kind of like worth, worth the hard work for sure, any
surprises um during the nutrition classes that you just did not anticipate
or um I definitely didn't expect metabolism to be so difficult and I kind
of wish that I had taken macro before I took micro. Um for some reason,
the catalog has you take micro before macro and micro is where you learn
about every mineral and every nutrient in its in its significant form. Um
And macro is where you learn about fats, proteins and carbohydrates. And
II, I just kind of feel like if I had a bigger picture of you and then
kind of went and looked at the details, it would have probably connected
with me better, but you don't really know that until you get into it. Um
Although it kind of makes sense, you take macro before you take micro in
economics. I don't know why I didn't think to do that with nutrition,
metabolism. But, um, it was certainly difficult. Um, but II, I was told
that from the beginning and it's rain. True for me anyway. Um, and I, what
I like about nut, the nutrition field is that it's so diverse. I don't
have to stay committed to one particular field if I don't want to. And, um
that's kind of, that's kind of why I think I'm in the position that I'm in
now. Um But I like that kind of flexibility of not having to be locked in
as like an accountant for the rest of my life because there's really no
other way to spin. These are my skill sets and this is what I can offer
you as a, as an employee. But um I don't know if that really answered you.
No, that's perfect. So tell me a little bit about being um receiving your
degree in nutrition. What people don't know about getting this type of
degree and what they can do with it. Um If you know nothing about
nutrition and the field that it goes in that you can go into or enter into
is um I don't think people realize how science based it is. And I also
don't think people realize how, how young the field of nutrition is.
There's a lot of nutrition, misinformation in the world and everyone's
kind of an expert on nutrition because in this world of social media and
constant attention to a theory about nutrition. Um, there, there's
research based nutrition, information that we know about the human body
and how it interacts with certain nutrients or certain lifestyle habits.
And then there's a lot, we don't know. And so in a way, there's a lot of
assumptions on how we should carry our body. I mean, we see that too with
the change from the my pyramid to the to the my plate. Um there was, that
was a lot of information in the my period for people to grasp and it's
just really hard for them to kind of adhere to that. Now with my plate,
it's a little bit more simplistic even though not perfect. It's, it's in
their five, their fifth year now with that. Um And uh I think it's
interesting that I just, I kind of feel like nutrition gets attacked a lot
just because there is a lot of misinformation out there or experts or
people who maybe don't have a nutrition background, they didn't go through
the four year program. Um And, but they've read an article or a blog or
picked up some book at Barnes and Noble or what have you. And um I now
know how the body works. I think there's a huge, huge misunderstanding
with that. And um and even in the field of nutrition, we have dieticians
who are experts at weight management or diabetes or renal care or um,
infertility or um
heart heart issues. I mean, you can be a cardiac dietitian or, or a IC U
dietician you specialize in kind of those trauma care situations and, and
there's special, there's certifications on top of your dietetic uh
registered dietetic certification that makes you a specialized person in
that field. And um, I do think and hopefully this will change but the
people who study nutrition and nutrients and, and how that affects your
body, I think that's also under appreciated even in the clinical realm. Um
And so we have a lot of work in the field of nutrition to kind of get the
support that we need both in the clinical care, but also um publicly for
the work that we went through with school and all this studying that we do
and the nerds that we are about why we care about food and how to affect
your body and, and all of that. So, did you change your, once you started
doing this, uh, nutrition field? Did you change your habits, your eating
habits or? Definitely. Yeah, tell me about that transition. Um I've
changed a few times actually, you kind of learn, you experimenting
yourself. Kind of no one else is gonna follow this diet I decided to come
up with. But, um, when I, when I, this is actually something my family and
I, we, we all joke about when I was in business school. I was, you're so
kind of financially motivated to save money, make money, invest money.
That, um, I was really trying and I was out of mom and dad's house. I was
, like, really trying to be good with money and be a good steward of money.
And, you know, I did have to take out loans and things like that. So I
was just like, ok, I'm going to save and do really well. And I, they
called me the Dollar Queen because I wouldn't buy anything that wasn't a
dollar. I mean, I'm talking vegetables, milk, protein. I didn't buy it if
it wasn't a dollar because it was too much. And, and I always left the
grocery store like, under $12 and that's what I would eat for most of the
week. And let me tell you, you're not buying the best foods when you're a
dollar queen. So that was probably the biggest change that happened when I
came into nutrition school and kind of learned about what it is that most
American or the American diet and what most Americans aren't getting. And
now, um, I'm probably a huge advocate of eating your fruits and vegetables
, but also focusing on fiber. Um, not that fiber is going to change the
world, but I think it's something that people don't focus enough on. Um,
and it's really good for colon care, but when your colon is healthy, you
have a better immune defense system. And so I just feel like we don't
focus enough on that. Um A lot of people are really focused on things like
protein, um fruits and vegetables obviously do have fiber in it, but so do
beans, legumes, um whole grains. And I just, I don't know. Um those are
probably, that's probably what I focus on the most now, but the biggest
change was the high sodium processed um items that you could get for a
dollar when it's on sale or manager special or what have you. And uh I
didn't really focus too much about having a complete meal um or making
sure I had my fruits and vegetables. That was not a focus. It was, can I
leave the grocery store in $10 or less?
Don't feel right there.
So, so let's talk a little bit about, I, I have two kind of questions that
are not in the same area whatsoever. I hear a lot of business kind of
entrepreneurship talk and um coming from you, how do you think that skill
set has helped you along the path of the path that you've chosen to take?
Um Yeah, so I ended up getting a business minor um because I felt like,
well, what, what is three more classes? And let's just lock that in into a
minor. Although looking back, I kind of wish that I had studied um supply
chain management, but that would have meant like an additional year and a
half, probably more and I was like uh kind of over school right now. Um
I'm not sure if that would have particularly helped me um supply chain
management. I think, focused a lot more on um how you save a business
money by reducing mileage um or packaging materials and all of that. But I
think it would have given me a better foundation from the beginning
considering where I started from um about the industry and why it's kind
of manifested into the way that it is. I mean, you, when we talk about
sustainability in the food system and much like in business, it comes down
to financial incentives to get people to do the things that you want them
to do. It's not, it's not always about kind of, you've heard probably of
the triple bottom line of doing what's good for your business, but also
what's good for the community around you. And um I don't know that most
businesses, most large businesses necessarily have that in mind. Um It
seems to be very much how is this going to impact my financial bottom line
? Um And that's nice if I can do that and still make my profit margins,
but if I can't, then it's not going to be a priority for me. And I think
um that is something I really struggle with. Um But at the same time,
given that the, the limited business background that I have, I guess it
makes sense. I mean, as a, as a world, I think a lot of us are financially
motivated and, and that's kind of a way that we identify as success if my
business can get to just, you know, one more level or, or what have you,
um, were then successful. But at some point, and this is just kind of how
economics works. You can only get so high and at some point you're going
to come down, don't know when that's going to happen, but at some point,
it's going to come down. And so when we talk about sustainability, um I
kind of wonder
if businesses, especially newer businesses who are kind of triple bottom
line oriented are thinking about how can we sustain success, make what we
need and and is success then identified by how can we take care of our
employees in the community around us and make sure that the needs of the
community are being met outside of like, you know, our financial profit
margin gains. Um
I forgot the question was this kind of your business, the business skill
set and how that has impacted. So I guess that's probably why when I am
talking with industry about um bringing on more local producers that
schools have access to it or um what do you need distributor to bring on a
local farm? How can we make that happen? What's, what's the reality of
that actually happening as opposed to you may be doing it once and it
being a flash in the pan kind of business venture view because it looks
good, goodwill wise. Um, but it's not really helping maybe that producer
or that school, you know, at all. Um I think it helps me to talk with,
with industry in a way that they can, that they will stay involved in the
conversation. I think it would be, um, a disservice to go in kind of
naively thinking that everyone is interested in servicing their community
for the community's sake and not just for like a financial incentive. Um
And so I, what I, what I do and what I've learned is that you need to work
in the system to make changes in the system. Uh You kind of have to use
your, your business savvy or your, this is gonna sound bad but your
manipulative skills to kind of um help make that change happen and make it
sound appealing to the people who really can make that change happen. So
one of the things um that I'm hoping will work out um when so schools, so
I, I guess I should explain a little bit what I do this before I can. OK.
So I'll, I'll have you wait then. So I have one more quick question when
you go and talk to industry and they're thinking a nutritionist is coming
to them and they, and you actually start talking about supply and demand
and kind of the business angle. Are they surprised? And what is that kind
of reaction? Um Honestly, I don't, I have not had, I've had more push back
because I am young and I look very young. Um I think more than, than what
background do you have? Um Initially when I first started, I had a
nutrition background and I was speaking with uh some of I was trying to
get some of our agricultural experts at a, at a, at the table to talk
about how I'm going to do this. And what's the reality of the food system
here in Arizona? And like, what did I get myself into uh kind of a thing?
And, and I, I don't know that I had pushed back about the fact that I
don't have an agriculture background um because my intention was to feed
kids healthy food and to bring Arizona agriculture into the forefront in a
way that hadn't been really discussed in Arizona before. Um So I probably
use my, my skills there a little bit to kind of help make that. Ok. Um I
wouldn't say industry is necessarily concerned about um the fact that I
don't necessarily, I have a small business background, but I don't know
that that's like a deterrent for them. Like, like I said, I think they are
more interested in how maybe is this going to make me money or how is this
going to make my business stronger? Um more than what background do you
have? And what right do you have to come talk to me about my business and
changing my business? Ok. So tell me a little bit about since you were
calling yourself the Dollar Queen. Um Tell me a little bit about how being
the Dollar Queen has helped you understand, kind of the food um in the
food injustice or the problems with food for people that are on a limited
budget. And um similar to you, they have to watch every at that time, you
have to watch what you purchased and you didn't necessarily purchase um
healthy vegetables, purchase high calorie content. And so tell me how that
doing that has helped you kind of frame where you are now today. I think
that it just allows me more empathy when I'm working in that population,
as you probably know, the National School Lunch program is an Anti Hunger
program. And so that's the population that I am working with for the
majority. Um And so when we're giving advice to people about changing the
way they practice their business, we have to be mindful of that. Um food
service structures do not have a lot of extra cash to be buying um kind of
heritage grains or heritage lettuces or, you know, these kind of special
products that you would normally see in maybe a high end restaurant. Um
And so I have to be respectful of that and understand the reality of maybe
bringing that in as a trial situation or, or what, what resources do you
really have to making something like this work? Because the, the end all
result is that students will be more connected with their food and then
hopefully eat more of those fresh foods that we want them to eat,
especially those low income populations that maybe don't have access to
that at home. And so it's really important that we give them the best meal
we can at school. Um But I think
grocery shopping is one of my favorite things to do. By the way,
a lot of people hate grocery shopping. I find it fascinating and maybe
it's because the world that is such an expansive world that is constantly
changing and the marketing that goes on in a grocery store is constantly
changing. It, it's ambiguous too and people just get really confused and
nervous, but instead I like dive into it and I just, I, for some reason,
I'm just fascinated. I mean, you see products on the shelf too that come
in, you know, being really great popular for maybe a couple of years and
then you never see it again. And um that all has to do with kind of
business and how we market food and all of that. But I don't know, I just
think it's interesting and fascinating and, and you also see too like Kale
coming up in population and Quinoa coming up in population with people
because of, you know, kind of the foodie world or maybe we're claiming
it's very more nutrient dense and maybe something else. And I think that's
fascinating too in some ways that's good in some ways that's bad. Um,
especially when we're talking about low income populations, you know. Do I
really have access to something like quinoa? Is it worth it to me to buy
something like chemo that's more expensive as a grain than something like
brown, white, brown rice or barley or, or, or uh what is that? Wheat
berries? Um Things like that. What, what can I, what can I do? As maybe
someone who doesn't have a lot of money, invest in the food that I'm
eating that then will keep me healthy and my family healthy. Um outside of
these trend foods that kind of make a splash every year. Um
So I think that my, my dollar queen Day is just, it kind of, it just helps
me, I think empathize with people who don't have a whole lot of money and
I'm definitely getting back to there, I think for a while too because I'm
, you know, had a job and had more money. I was fascinated by this
creative culture of food and probably invested a lot more money and time
and energy into kind of exploring that area. Only to realize that I really
like and enjoy cooking and would rather in a lot of cases nowadays, um
cook at home and come up with my own creations with what I have at home.
Um And be just as pleasantly surprised and happy than going out to a
restaurant and having to get dressed up or, you know, the event of going
out to eat. And I would rather just kick it at home and make something
happen there. Um And plus you did it yourself. So that's kind of, you know
, encouraging as well. Um
So I am going to ask you now, how did you become involved in your current
organization? So it is a weird kind of thing. One of the first things we
had to do um in nutrition school was spend. Um I think it was something
like 90 hours in the community. No, it was only like 12, it was only 12
hours. We had, it was a community nutrition class. We had to spend 12
hours in the community. It could be like a food bank. I ended up at the
farmers market with Cindy, which is where I first met her. Um I didn't
even know what farmer work it was. I didn't know that those things existed.
I was so outside of my realm but excited about it at the same time. Um I
didn't know like any, like most Arizonans didn't know that we grew things
here. I was like, and I've lived here my whole life. Arizona is a desert.
There's no way we're growing anything but cactus and tumbleweeds because
I've lived, I've lived behind a desert that's now developed, but I was
like, nothing grew out there. I promise you. Um, but obviously that's not
true. Um, and I've, I've learned that over the years. Um, but so I started
with Cindy 12 hours. Uh, I think I had to get that done in a semester. It
was very, a very kind project actually, whatever worked out for both Cindy
and myself. And she was working at the Phoenix Public Market at the time.
And so she had every weekend I could come out and it was like five or six
hours a slot. So I really only had to be there for six, like two weekends
probably. Um And uh I, I ended up staying, they seem to need my help and I
really like helping people. So I stayed on for a couple of years and
helped recruit more volunteers. And um I learned a lot while I was there
with Cindy about smaller producers and, and also the low income population.
I, I was really just at the information booth unless I had some special
projects that needed to be done on the weekend. And um so we had customers
who had E BT cards and it was really kind of cool because we would just
scan that like a debit card. And like, they didn't have to feel weird
about shopping at the farmers market, which was awesome. And so, um that
was, and then the purpose of this volunteer work was to give us direct
exposure to um a community in need, which is what we spent a lot of our
time talking about in community nutrition. Um And what those programs
really look like and kind of meet the people that were those programs
where those assistance programs kind of touch base with real life people.
And I think that's important for all dietitians to know. Um Not only
because they're going to be in every community that you work in. Um But
also there's, there's a special caveat on how you need to treat that
population too. Like they have, they have, they have little, little and
often less than, than I do. And um I think it's important to treat them
with respect. They're, they're there asking for help because they are
often working poor. They're not making enough to buy food, but maybe
enough to cover whatever rent that they need to cover. A lot of them have
families and need to help those kids thrive and maybe they are themselves
sacrificing meals so that their Children can eat or, or whatever the
situation is. And I think that um we come across these people in general
in our daily life and I think a lot of the time, um sometimes they're
disrespected or kind of forgotten, they're kind of invisible because it's
easier to not think about that. Um Kind of human kindness. But um, so
anyway, from, from there, I also have a child nutrition certificate that I
got through as U as I was finishing up my minor. Why not get a certificate
? Um, I was able to work with the Department of Education as an intern.
And so there I learned about things like the USA Fresh Fruit and Vegetable
program, the USA healthier, healthier, healthier school challenge. Yes, I
said that right. Um which is just an incentive program for schools who are
excelling in their meal program and their physical activity components at
school. Um To get an award that recognizes their work outside of those in
the community who maybe are are kind of doing, maybe not the bare minimum
, but you know, the meets that they meet the needs of, of what it is that
their program is supposed to do. We want really want to exemplify those
who are kind of going above and beyond for the health of their community.
Um and to the and also the Fresh Fruit vegetable camp program. So I was
learning some little programs that were beyond national school lunch or
school breakfast. Um And I was with them for about two months, probably
once a week. Um So I got a lot of time with them and kind of from there. I
was then beginning to read articles from my professional organization now
the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics um about farm to school. And so I
was like, what is that? So my grandfather on my mom's side had a farm. He
was a cattlemen and he also raised rose his own grain for the for that
cattle. And uh so we we are fond of little Blue Hill Nebraska where his
farm was. And um now that I know more about agriculture, he was a smaller
producer, very humble, had all girls. So no one took over the farm.
Um Although that's the case a lot these days. Um So that was like the most
agriculture that I had grown up with. I mean, grandpa had a farm and like
, I didn't realize, I don't think that a lot of my friends growing up
didn't have that same exposure to agriculture. It was just, that was kind
of normal. Grandma, had a garden, mom, had a garden here and there. Um And
so it, it wasn't very significant to me. But when I saw that article about
Pharm to school, I was like, well, this is interesting and I asked the
director of that uh program who is, who is going to hire this person to do
ph to school? What is Arizona doing in ph to school? Like, what, how do
you know we grew stuff here? What does that look like? And I'm asking all
these questions and they couldn't answer because they're like, wow, that's
why we're actually hiring someone because we need this to be an initiative
in our school. Program. But we don't, we don't know how to answer these
questions. And we're getting questions about school garden development.
And we just realized that the background of most of our professionals, you
know, and the connections that they have are limited, we can't answer
those questions. And so we're basically creating a position to help bridge
that gap. And so um as USDA slowly took on this initiative in school lunch
, uh ad E did the same thing. And so I applied, didn't think I was going
to get it. I was like, if I don't get this, I'm going to go do my
internship for my registered dietitian certificate. Um I didn't even make
it to actually applying formally. So applications were due in February. I
graduated in December, I applied kind of waited around for a month. Um And
then they picked me. I don't really know why honestly, because I, I don't
really know who I was in competition with, but I can imagine a fresh out
from nutrition school with no ag background really fit the bill except
that I remember there was a question in the interview about um are you
comfortable with gray, like with, with an ambiguity? Like are you
comfortable with not having a black and white? And if you, if you've ever
met a dietician, most of them are black and white, there's gonna be a
black and white answer. It's, there's gonna be evidence to support this. I
just don't see the world that way. And so I was completely ok with gray.
Um, and I'm, I'm guessing, I don't really know this for sure, but I'm
guessing that's probably why I got the job and also probably being younger
, I was someone that could be manipulated to doing and being whoever the
agency needed me to be as opposed to maybe someone who is older and more
kind of set in their ways. Um They didn't want to have to deal with the
push back. Um But that's kind of the story of how I got there. Ok. So tell
me a little bit about the job and what it is and the goals and the mission
of the, of the farm school. So, um the the agency's mission and goals is
to create an excellent environment for academic success. So that's
supporting our teachers and supporting our students making sure that um
everyone is academically successful in health and nutrition. Um We want to
make sure that students are well fed so that they can be focused and ready
to learn in the classroom. Um And Ph New School honestly has the same
goals. Um A lot of nutrition educators, we have Snap Ed, which is um an
education program under the Arizona Nutrition Network that works in
schools of 50% frame reduced and below to make sure that those students
have nutrition education um continuously, they work on policies, they work
on um settings of the school to make sure that it's a healthy one. So that
physical activity is not only present but also encouraged um to meet a
certain standard every year or every yes, every week, sorry, every week.
And also that there is nutrition, education opportunities for students to
learn about what's good for them in their body. Um health classes and pe
classes has kind of been cut out of the system as academic has become more
of the forefront and focus. It's not true of all of our schools, but a lot
of our schools when you got to cut funding, you kind of cut those special
areas that help make a student more well rounded and and quite frankly, um
for those kid aic learners who need hands on development or learn outside
of written or verbal communication, um they're kind of doing a disservice
for them to cutting out those kind of creative elements to where they are
more free to think the way that they're comfortable thinking and forcing
them instead to think in a way that they're less likely to probably be
successful. Um farm to school helps in those ways. Farm to school is
honestly just one method that you can use to get a child to connect with
food, cooking, which doesn't necessarily have to be farm to school related.
Um can be that for many students and adults actually to connect with
their food, they enjoy the process of of eating is now more satisfying
because I helped prepare this meal and I almost have more value tied to
this meal because I spent 30 minutes to an hour or whatever it took to
cook this meal, as opposed to just getting it in five minutes from the
driver window or from some counter or opening up a chip bag, whatever. Um
, and the same thing can be set up after school program. The reason why
it's kind of just blown up in the last I'd say five years or 10 years is
because there's a lot of research to show that through social cognitive
theory, students who are able to kind of touch and feel and smell and
taste their food, their especially the fruits and vegetables that they're
more, more likely to consume those items. I mean, there's lots of free
research to show that students who maybe didn't like things like broccoli
or asparagus or cauliflower or beets. Um These are all foods that we kind
of associate with kids and be not particularly liking and for a lot of
adults probably not liking either. Um But these kids are then growing it
themselves. They're watching this plant grow that, you know, in often
cases, takes anywhere from like 30 to 90 days to mature to a place where
you can eat it. And so you've kind of grown along with this plant and you
eat it for the first time and not only does it taste better because it's
fresher, but you are more open minded to trying that item and accepting it
as something that maybe you could put into your regular repertoire of food.
Um So school gardening is huge in, in Arizona but also nationally. Um and
gardens are starting to become more popular even at homes. Community
gardening is very popular. Um I think for those reasons and there's just
kind of a direct connection with that. You see a direct impact with
students who are gardening themselves and then being more open minded with
food. Um The same thing can be a set of students who are exposed to
meeting their producer, either through farm tours or through videos of
where they're seeing what's happening on a farm and how growing a broccoli
plant or a lettuce plant, you know, actually ends up on your plate and you
kind of have a deeper connection and you, you find that there's more value
to that this food item that maybe I didn't like and I just threw in the
trash or gave to my dog or whatever. Um So, um I think that that is one of
the reasons why I think this program is so important, but also just why it
is so impactful. Um It's just neat and me even knowing that my, you know,
my grandpa had cattle and my grandma had a farm and I didn't like
asparagus when I was a kid, I was like, it looks cool and it takes like
two years for it to produce anything. So when I was cutting all this
asparagus for grandma and she was like, oh, you're not eating any. And I
was like, oh, no, I don't like asparagus. I just wanted to cut it all. You
know, her heart probably broke because she was like,
now we have to eat so much asparagus. This kid won't even eat it. Um
So let me ask you a little bit about you saying the school gardening and
tell me a little bit about what that initiative is and, and your role in
that. So unfortunately, my role is I think a little indirect. Well, it is
, it's indirect. I think a lot of people, I, when I first started, I had
people call me up and be like, ok, I'm ready for the school garden to be
dropped in uh when, when could you be here uh during the month and I was
like, ah
frankly more complicated than that. So I really provide uh I'm more of a
resource provider for schools who want to start a school garden. I also go
out and visit school gardens. I give them an advice based off of um things
I learned from Coperative Extension or just going out on site visits and
really help people kind of brainstorm about how they can start or expand
their school garden. I connect, I can connect one school garden to another
, let's say so earlier. This year, we had a school who was struggling with
their administration to get um citrus trees put into their yard. And their
concern was that maintenance was going to have to take care of it. Um
instead of the garden leaders, and they wanted an example of a school that
had citrus in their, in their garden. And for some reason, they wanted an
example which was actually kind of hard to find. Um We found one for them
to then the administrators then talk about, you know, what does this take
citrus trees? Like a lot of fruit trees actually do take a lot more water.
And so I don't know if that was really the concern. Um And as far as
maintenance, you do want to make sure that you're taking care of the fruit
and harvesting it when it's available because you want to avoid certain
pests. So pest management might have been another issue. But um so that's
something that I do and also whenever grants come out, I want to make sure
that our schools know about it. Um West Growers Foundation has received um
especially crop block funding, which is from our Department of Agriculture
and from our American marketing service. Um but funds to get start gardens
started or expanded in Arizona. And so they service Arizona and California
and uh they've been putting out, I think now it's $1000 but it used to be
1500 per school garden K 312. And, you know, my job then is to make sure
that schools apply. Um, and interestingly, um, it, we've struggled the
last few years to get schools to apply. I'm like, guys, this is easy money.
We're not even competing with national markets anymore. Like, we're just
competing with ourselves. Like, just apply. You'll probably get it. Um,
what do you think that is? I don't know, I think, I think when you're
writing a grant, so it's kind of grandiose, especially if you're not used
to writing a grant. And it may even be easier just to ask for donation
within your community from garden supply centers. A lot of people want to
start or help support school gardens because it impacts kids. And so that
might be a reason or maybe the PT or school has a special pot of funding,
which I, I should, I should say that kind of jokingly knowing that a lot
of our schools don't have a lot of extra money. But um I think maybe in
some ways because I know the PT or because I know maybe my community
garden center, maybe it's easier to think of doing that. But I mean, also
quite frankly starting a school garden if you know nothing about gardening
or even like where to go is, is quite daunting. Um And thinking that you
might have to then shoulder this project, which, you know, a lot of school
gardens are kind of flash in the pan projects because it is a lot of work.
And if you are the only one doing it, you're going to burn out. Like
that's just the story. Um Unless you have a huge passion for kids in
gardening, um it's, it's just something that's going to falter unless you
get more people to help you out. Um because it's a lot of work. Um And you
really want students to be connected to that garden. That's in a lot of
that, that's in a lot of ways why schools start gardens for the
educational aspect. And so, um
yeah, I think that that so anyway, my role really is to just talk with
school gardens or people who want to start school gardens, let them know
of Corporate Extension and the Valley Permaculture Alliance. And um we
have a lot of seed libraries specifically for schools where they can check
out seeds and they kind of, they let their plant go to seed and they
collect them and then kind of give them back and try a new plant in the
next season. And it really just offers schools an opportunity to kind of
learn through like research and development, like what works for them,
what worked for them and what they're going to continue doing. But um all
in all it's the purpose of school gardening is just to kind of learn. You
don't have to, you don't have to meet a certain yield. You're not a farm,
you're just learning about seed cycles and plant life cycles and also
hopefully getting kids to really connect with food so that they are more
likely to eat those foods. Like if they're served at home, we're served on
the, the lunch line. So that's kind of ok. So tell me, um, a little bit
how hard is it not to go into these schools and just go, look, this isn't
hard if you just and to actually get in there and, and everything, I mean
, you can provide resources, but it's also the next step, right? And how
hard is it for you? Just to not kind of, it's super frustrating sometimes
even when I talk about local purchasing um while I understand probably
more than a school would upfront, like the difficulty of accessing local
product, I also can only do so much to make that change happen. Um It
takes a school or several schools and for that matter to, to kind of
change the demand and supply system of making creating that change to
happen. And I am only me, I'm only one person and what I say can only go
so far. Um Whereas schools are an entire community and they just, they
have more weight than I do, at least that's how I feel. Um And so
sometimes it is difficult for me to be like, OK, like I could give you a
step guide, this is what you need to do. It's kind of that saying, you
know, you can, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink
it. And so, um, that's kind of how I feel sometimes. What I have
definitely felt in, in my career here at the department is how slow it
takes for a change to happen. And while you can do all the research you
can and be like this is all you got to do with this plan. This is all you
got to do. This 10 step plan will look different um school to school
district, to district, producer, to producer. Um what incentivizes them
and what encourages them to make those changes or what they even get out
of the entire process is going to be different every single time. And
that's something that's hard for me to gauge, I can't predict that. And so
it kind of makes it makes motivating people to act and change and do and
do something different and very difficult only because um I know that I
like if I were to like, just decide I'm going to go and put a garden in
every single school garden or every single school or if I'm going to make
sure that each, our producers are connected to a school or each school has
a producer in their area that they can be connected to. Um I just, I can't
even imagine the amount of work that would take. I mean, I feel like that
would take 100 100,000 years to do just knowing how relationships develop
and the whole trust aspect of actually getting that to happen. I mean,
relationships literally don't develop out of thin air. They just don't, um
, no matter how great the end result might, may or may not be. There's a
lot of distrust in you saying in me saying that Children are going to eat
their broccoli. If you start a school garden, there's a lot of distrust
there because, um, well, I don't know that that's true. And I don't know
if I believe you when you say that, even if I can show you evidence that
it's happened in other states, um It's really difficult to get someone to
be like, well, OK, well, where did it happen in Arizona? And uh I'm
getting, I have more success stories. So it's getting a little easier to
kind of help motivate people. Um But getting those trailblazers out there
is really difficult. Who wants to do something that they've never done
before? And it might not work out anyone, anyone, I'm your girl, I'll help
you out, I'll hold your hand, but you gotta be ready to help me convince
your entire administration that this is a great idea and I'll be there and
I'll help you. But
no, you go figure, share with me a success story that you had of a school
that's taken this on. Um I have worked very closely with Tempe school
district. Um, and I, I don't know that I've necessarily been directly
responsible for their success. I, I think that schools are successful on
their own. Um, at the end of the day, they're the ones doing the work and
I'm more the person to just call up when you're having a bad day and, you
know, kind of reassure you that this is a good idea and that this will
work out. Um But Tempe school district I've highlighted again and again
and Melinda probably won't be happy that I'm highlighting her again. But
um she's bought local apples in the fall to highlight, you know, the fall
harvest, which is not a top commodity here in Arizona. Certainly not when
you think of apples, you do not think of Arizona, you think of Washington.
Um But she does it because she thinks it's important to connect kids with
agriculture and with fresh tasting food. And if, if kids are even willing
just to try the bite of apple, even though this cost me 30 cents more per
apple than what I would normally buy. Uh She thinks it's worth it because
um kids had one more bite of nutrition than they might not have had
otherwise. And they had an experience that they might not have had
otherwise. And um she's also been a huge trooper in the realm of local
procurement, um which is a kind of a special caveat that schools have to
work under when they're trying to buy anything but are particularly
something local. Um, it's, it kind of fits into that specialized product
category which, um, if you don't have the money to cover, it's not
something that you're willing to try. Um, so she's, she's attempted to buy
local carrots out directly, um, outside of her normal produce bid and, um
, she hasn't been successful but she's tried. Um, which, so I guess that's
not a success story, but I think getting someone to try something outside
of what they would have normally tried. Um To me is successful. Um And we
do have anyway, so we were able to get those carrots through a program of
the USDA Foods program, our Department of Defense Fresh Produce program.
So in a nutshell, we were successful, we just just didn't, we had to
choose a different route to get the product there. Um And we also were
able to get more schools access to it. So, I mean, it wasn't for, it was
for not. Um We also have a school in Tucson which again, I I want to say
was indirectly involved with, I was more involved with the community food
bank who's a really huge supporter of Tucson Unified School District. Um
And they are this first year um won a contract with Tucson to kind of
aggregate and bring local food for taste tests. So, on a small scale,
there are about 90 sites. So they have the demand to kind of ask for
things that maybe they're not already getting. Um, but for other reasons,
are unsuccessful in that route. And so, um, on a smaller scale, they have
several sites under them that are part of the Fresh Fruit and Vegetable
Grant program, which is a great opportunity for schools if you're able to
access that program to start buying local on a small level. And also what
better way than outside of a meal, which can be kind of intimidating if
you're trying to talk about food and nutrition to picking one item
focusing on why it's good for you where it came from. Um And building that
connection with that one food as opposed to one food that maybe you're
focusing on in an entire meal, um especially if you're super hungry,
you're just trying to get a get food in your belly. Um So that's a success
story. Um So what are the challenges?
My favorite?
So primary school kind of has 55 challenges. There is the cost piece.
There is the distribution or aggregation or food access piece. Um There is
procurement that can be a barrier. Um
Supply size can be a barrier and I'll talk about that. Um Shoot, what's
the fifth one? Food safety? Love that topic and by love. I mean, not
really. Um So all those barriers are certainly true in Arizona in getting
access to local food. Probably the ones that are the are the biggest
challenges that are the hardest to overcome. Um is the distribution aspect
and that kind of ties to like food safety and supply size. So,
distributors schools want to buy like any other buyer want to buy from one
place that's just kind of the culture that we've set up in this world and
it's easier and it takes time to buy from multiple people. I'd rather just
buy from one. Do you go to a grocery store? I mean, you used to have to go
to the meat market and the bread store and maybe the farmer's market or
whatever, you have to go to several places. It was an entire day to get
food for the week. Um So I can imagine, I mean, I would love, that was
amazing, but not everyone wants to do that. And so we've grocery stores,
you know, kind of fit a need for, for busy families. And um so it's, it's
completely unrealistic to think that schools would want to go by from
multiple sources of food, especially when um you have to follow certain
procurement processes to make that happen as well. So, um the barrier, we
see a lot in Arizona is we have a lot of small producers and a lot of
large producers, but not a whole lot of middle of the road. Our larger
producers are kind of set up for export. Most of their stuff is contracted
before it's even planted. Um and whatever is left over is really a smart
business move for our farmers in case yields don't happen. Or if they have
product that something happened to has happened on the field, they can
still um give to their promises to whoever they have contracted with
internationally or nationally. Um So that happens a lot. We also have
small producers who are set up for farmers markets. Basically, they do not
have a whole lot of acreage or a lot of yield in their supplier. They have
a really diverse portfolio. And so they are growing a lot, a lot of a
little supply of a lot of different things, which is great. I mean, that
is really fun. Um But in terms of making that like a good adventure for
schools, that's difficult. A lot of our schools are concerned about the
supply that they're going to need, especially our larger districts who
have several sites underneath them. And they're like, well, if I buy this
, I want to be able to menu it for all of my schools and I have 60 80 90
whatever sites underneath me, even 20 would be a lot. Um And that's just
not realistic for me. I I can't have a different menu for every single
school. Like I have a hard enough time getting the same menu out to all my
schools and having that go seamlessly. And so
that's, that's a barrier and, and that's like a food system issue, which
is where I think schools, if they band together or if we have larger
districts who make that initiative or may create that demand, industry
will follow because industry is going to be tied to money and school
industry is tied to schools because there's a lot of money there and while
schools can't afford the top of the line products, I mean, we're not
serving like sirloin steaks or anything to kids anytime soon. Even those
who could probably pay for it. Um,
you have a certain demand or a buying power that a small charter or a
smaller school district just could never actually call that demand for, um
, especially in the realm of produce. I mean, um, some of our, our
districts who are, I wouldn't say small but are small in the eyes of
industry, 20 sites, let's say, um, doesn't have the buying power or demand
to say I want x amount of lettuce, which means I'm, let's say they swapped
out a lettuce, um, local, whatever, they're still not buying enough for
interest to make that worth their time. Now, if we had five or 10
different districts claiming for the same product, then we're talking
enough money to where it's, it's kind of dumb business wise to not invest
in that, that new product or whatever that schools are looking for. So,
something I'm really excited about that. I hope we get done by October or
by the end of the year is a group purchasing pilot with a few of our
districts. And I say group purchasing, we have a lot of, we have a lot of
um group Purchasing Cooperative's in the state for schools. They, they
kind of band together by one thing and they get a reduced price because
they have so much money they're putting on the table that whoever is
winning that contract or that bid, I can't say no because I'm like, I'm
getting so much money from you basically that, that's a large account. I
can't afford to say no. Um and I didn't realize this was an issue. I don't
think until I had some schools actually go out and try to buy certain
things local and they were unsuccessful in getting responses. And so it's
like, ok, well, you're clearly, we clearly don't have enough money on the
table then just to make anyone listen. So I'm really excited about this
group purchasing pilot and uh we actually have a meeting about it with a
couple of our school districts who are doing this um next month. And um
I'm hoping it's really successful because we have promised that by buying
together, we can not only reduce the price but get access to things that
you've been unable to access in the past. And I think that if that's
successful, we're on the brink of a larger food system change, at least
for schools to accessing products that's going to make a difference in
their meal program. So tell me how you came about this group purchasing
pilot and what are the items you're going to purchase? So this is a
concept that you see in business, um especially school, business in
general. And um this happens too in ph to school programs around uh around
where this, where it's an issue of um I don't have a lot of small
producers near me. And so, um for example, in Vermont, there is a lot of
smaller producers there, there's not a whole lot of large producers. And
so a small farmer getting a contract with a school is like really sweet
business because now I don't have to go to the market as much. And a
school, especially probably in Vermont, they are willing to take kind of
the ugly, the ugly product that you know, someone at a farmers market
probably wouldn't take. And so I am going to turn that into lasagna or, or
whatever it is and the school is happy, the farmer is happy and that works
really well. Um And while we have small and large producers here, um
getting, getting uh the buy in to kind of make that change can be
difficult without like a guarantee that this is going to help sustain my
business or help take some like farmers markets off my docket. Um And with
schools too, them being concerned about meeting supply or will my kids
even eat this like, are, is this just going to go into the trash? And also
it's not like a very streamlined approach, which they're very used to, um
, buying things, um, kind of once a year and getting that year round and
like worst case scenario, having to switch out, um, a menu item because
something didn't come through. And like that is a big hurdle in school
food in general. So, like, why would I want to invite more, more fires to
put out? Like I, I totally understand that you're right. That sounds awful.
Um And so we had talked about a couple of things for this purchasing pilot.
I was hoping that we can access apples. We have an apple, we have a
couple of apple growers down south and I believe one up north. Um And they
say they can give us a truckload of apples if a school buys, if this, if
this group purchasing product can buy a truckload of apples. Um, we have
something to negotiate with. That's apparently a quantity that, that perks
the ears up of industry. Um And if some of our producers who maybe if you
couldn't meet the cost that they were asking for, wouldn't really be into
negotiating. Look, if you can't give me 60 cents per apple, then I don't
know if I, if I want to help you, you know. Um We've talked about
like lettuces in the winter time, November through April is like our large
lettuce season basically because we are not frozen over like a lot of
other places. So we are producing a lot of lettuces, um, for a year and
throughout the year, um, I think we have also talked about things like
tomatoes. It is really dependent on what all the schools can agree on that.
They could buy a truckload of. I'm hoping it's apples because it's a nice
storage crop. So you don't have to utilize it really quickly. Which means
we don't, you have to worry so much about. Um that means schools can ask
for more upfront in one buy basically. And we don't have to worry about
multiple deliveries. We get one delivery per school site. It's a storage
crap. And so we don't have to worry too much about it. Another thing that
I might suggest, but this would require some menu enhancements would be
something like a winter squash or pumpkin or something like that. Um So,
so to be determined what will actually happen, but I'm really excited
about that. How long did it take to put this pilot together and all the
people to bring all the people to the table? Um So I proposed the question
probably earlier this year. One of our school districts receipt had a new
, they had changed out their procurement person. And so that took a little
bit of a while, we had to get the um whatever that transition had to
happen. And then we had to kind of spin it to this procurement person. And
luckily this per person was very interested in doing something different.
I mean, if it's going to get you the product that you want in her mind,
that that's, that's what I'm here for. Um, she was fine doing something
outside of the norm, which I wouldn't say is the call of duty of a lot of
procurement people. Um, and luckily she knows her research, she knows her
stuff. She's like here's the limitations. I had to sit down and kind of
train and discuss what options you have. Um kind of legally to go about
this. Here are the loopholes. Essentially, this is what you need to think
about when you're rewriting your documents and then you process the
procurement as you would anything else. Um She, she became on board very
quickly and then it became more of a process of getting other school
districts to get excited about it. So I'd say it's probably taken eight
months
to, to do that. And now we are having a meeting in September. Um And
hopefully the procurement will take place before the end of the year. I'm
hoping so. Let's go back to, you mentioned five challenges. You talked
about distribution and then you hadn't really touched on the other ones.
But just briefly, I mean, you talked about distribution but like safety
and the other, the other challenges. So food safety is kind of a concern.
What's, what's different about Arizona than other states it seems is, um
, a lot. So we are a local regulatory state, a lot of our, um, so our
local county health departments are the ones who kind of decide what food
code we use and how we interpret what that means and what that says, um,
the Arizona food code has a line about, um, approved source which there is
no definition as to what that means. But the interpretation really is, um
are you food safety certified or not, is what it comes down to? It's not
written that that's what they mean. And when you talk to, to different
counties, it kind of means different things to different counties or even
to different representatives that you talk to from the county. Um But in
general, we've, I think gotten most of our counties to agree that um food
safety approved source for the most part means some sort of food safety
certification. Um The bare minimum tends to be the USDA G gap, which is
good handling practices and good agricultural practices. It is a kind of
baseline food safety certification for, for produce. Um And then there's
higher level ones where you get like a third party audit from Primus Labs
or something like that. Basically saying that we have the best food safety
you have and most distributors um will take anything from gap to some sort
of third party auditor. Now, in other states with primary school, it tends
to be the case that in lieu of a food safety certification for a small
producer that can be really resource intensive, it can take a lot of time
, it can take a lot of money and there's not a guarantee that you're going
to make that money back working with an institution. Although ideally if
you had a good relationship with an institution, you would make that money
back tenfold outside of a farmers market. Um But anyway, other states have
these like food safety checklists that they go through with, with the
producer. So the buyer and the producer are together talking about your
food safety practices, they check to check, decide that we're ok with it.
Um And they both sign off and that's supposed to act as like a legal
document in the case or the event or in the event of like a food recall.
Um Some people might argue that that's not going to hold up in court or
that that's not really going to protect you from a risk management
perspective on the schools. A lot of our schools want to err on the side
of caution, particularly because we're talking about um students. But I
think also just because the liability risk is really can potentially be
really um heavy and so many of our schools prefer to buy or look for local
from a G gap or above certified farm. Um Some aren't necessarily like some
some of our schools know their producers well and want to buy. Um, so we
have, we have some counties that are more restrictive will not let a
school buy outside of g gap or above. And then we have some counties who,
um, kind of just don't want to be the bad guy, which I probably even
shouldn't even say on this, but like, kind of don't want to be the bad guy.
And so they kind of say, well, um, technically we wouldn't necessarily
know who you're buying from or what you're getting and, and if they meet
all these certifications because when we come and inspect your kitchens,
um we're just making sure that you hit, you know, these marks and that
everything looks clean and all of that, but we're not like looking through
your invoices and then checking to see if like those people are food
safety certified. Um So we recommend that you buy from someone who is food
safety certified. But, um, if you choose not to, we recommend that you
cook it, cook these items. And a lot of the items that schools want to buy
local are something you would serve raw. And so it's kind of an
interesting point. So most of our schools just kind of prefer to err on
the side of caution or if they are comfortable with their producers and
their food safety practices, um are literally not allowed to buy anything
depending on the county that they're in. Um, so that is certainly a
barrier. Um, but for the most part, schools aren't going to buy directly
from a farm, unless, unless it's for a special event, which doesn't happen
very frequently, they would buy more of a particular farms product or
local in general if they could get it from their main produce distributor.
So that's kind of the overlying challenge that I see. And that's what I
mean by working within the system is getting distributors to want to pick
up local product and making that worthwhile for them. But that means
guaranteeing in a, in a way that multiple schools are going to be
interested in that product. So buying direct does happen occasionally,
especially if the product is, you know, cost effective enough or it's
really going to impact your food service operation and those are just kind
of special, special cases. Um But if you're looking for, you know,
sustainability, you really want to look at what's what frequent purchases
are going to happen and what and what system is that going to really
happen? And so it kind of falters to who's going to distribute that food.
Ok. So tell me a little bit about um so you've been there five years, what
do you hope to see happen down the road with this program? I would really
like to see um more schools ask for local but formally in procurement
documents, that's going to be kind of the the legal standing way for them
to show that their demand um means something because that is something
they are going to practice. Everyone wants to get into schools, you are
going to get a huge count if you get into a school, especially a larger
school or if you have a pocket of schools um who is associated with one
particular entity, like a lot of our charters or some of our charters, I
say a lot. Um if you can seal the deal on that or even some of our food
service management companies, if you can get to those areas, those are
large accounts and you can't afford to not do that, but you are not going
to make that switch or make that move um until you are financially
motivated to do that. And so you are not going to do that as an industry
person unless you see that demand written in contract essentially. Um
which is kind of a shame. Um because that means you have to kind of change
a whole fleet of procurement practice to change. So hopefully we have, our
procurement directors are more comfortable with adding a local preference
for certain items. Um Hopefully, industries carrying a local line of
something and they're able to share and communicate that information to
the schools that they're serving. Um And I also hope too and this is kind
of a similar point that we are able to carry more direct farm product
through our dod catalog, um which is an easy access point for our schools
and and also that our group purchasing co that have large accounts with
many schools are able to kind of change that demand um because they have
so many schools that contract with them every single year. So I'm hoping
that priorities kind of shift um in local purchasing and on the and on the
realm of school gardens, I would, I would like to see more educational
based school gardens. We also and I didn't mention this earlier, have some
school gardens who are doing a garden to cafe program and there's a
special food safety certification for schools, it's free. Um And our
Department of Health runs that program. But um we have some schools who
really just want to have kids see things being grown and then having it
being served in the cafeteria to kind of bring a full
circle effect back to that student. And so um we have a few who are
interested in doing that, but most schools are interested in the
educational aspect of, of the garden and not necessarily want to be like a
micro farm or, you know, to be production heavy. So um I would like to see
more of that happen. Um We have so many different climates in Arizona too.
So up north, you know, our, our growing season is about April to October
um because it's just too cold to grow anything the rest of the year. Um
And so that's, you know, pretty much the end of the school year and the
front of the school year where schools have access to be growing things
and then there's um summer programs that happen. So summer camps or um
community gardens that happen where kids have a place to kind of learn and
play in the dirt. And then we, our growing season down here is mostly um
out during the school season, which is remarkable compared to a lot of
places in the nation, which is kind of awesome. So like, I feel like we
should be taking priority over that, but also just the schools who have
gardens, everyone that you meet on that campus after it's been kind of
established for a while will tell you that they love it and the adults
will tell you that they have never, they've had the best broccoli or
whatever out of that garden that the students are happy and you just the
culture of that school um kind of changes a little and it's just a little
bit more happy. Tell me what did um talk about the success of having that
school garden? Um Why are they giving you that kind of response? Have you
been out there when they're in the garden? The Children and kind of the
responses of that the Children have and the teachers I have, yeah, I have
, I have seen some um student and teacher interactions with, with the
school garden and it's, it's fun. I've seen more like little kids in the
garden than maybe the older kids. We have some f fa programs where they're
kind of learning like plant science and animal science, which is
interesting too because, um, a lot of those kids didn't grow up with
agriculture and all of a sudden they are tied to it and they've learned so
much from it and they kind of respect food in a different way that they
hadn't before. And I think the same thing is true with little kids, but
little kids are so curious about their surroundings. And I think sometimes
as adults, we kind of lose that curiosity just because of maybe over
simulation or we're too focused on whatever we have to get done. But
little kids love gardening even if you're just planting and they haven't,
they can't see anything right away. Like you'd think a student would be
like impatient being like we put a seed in the ground and they're just
like, I have to wait like 30 to 90 days to see something happening. But
every little stage in that plant cycle is like something new and fun and
all the bugs and everything that happens throughout a plant's life cycle I
think is just fascinating for kids. And what a lot of teachers will say. A
lot of teachers are um garden coordinators will say is that school
students with school gardens, not only appreciate their garden, but they
learn to appreciate their school campus and one another and other things
in the environment because, um, you just, everyone has almost like a
common interest. You know, everyone wants this thing to grow well. And, um
, I've heard too that communities will kind of be on the watch for
vandalism and things that might happen when school is not in session. And
so it's, it's weird, Plants are just happy and people get really happy
about it. I used to have like a little desk garden in which my coworkers
keep bugging me about to start one. But I, I work for tens and so I'm not
, I'm only there four days of the week and I'm like, wow, these things
still need to get watered when I'm not here. I should probably do some
hydroponic stuff because I don't have to worry about it. But, um, the
office is happier when you have like, little plants growing and people who
maybe weren't even interested in food before. Like, what do you got
growing here? And you're like, oh, just, you know, tomatoes, no big deal.
Um, I don't know. It's just, you're just happier with plants there. I
don't have like a scientific reason, but that's what I tend to see. Ok.
Can you tell me a little bit about, um, what you, can you tell me what
food sustainability means to you? Yes. And I thought about this, um, I
think a lot of people would say that food sustainability is about
sustaining food access for everyone um throughout the entire food system.
But I also, I think it's a little deeper than that. I think that yes,
that's important. We want to make sure that everyone has access to fresh,
healthy food that's good for their bodies. Um and that they're going to
eat. But I also think that in a healthy or sustainable food system, people
value that food differently and in a nutshell, they value people
differently because it's people who create that food for you. Um And so I
think that's what a sustainable food system means, but that's just me
because I'm like a people person and I think that when you value people,
you can then value what they do, which is provide food and fiber and fuel
for you. And, and to me that's ideal. Why, why is that important?
Oh, well, I mean, we
are a population with dwindling numbers of people who work in agriculture.
Um And without that, we can't survive and something that I think is
disappointing or something that concerns me. I actually worry about it
sometimes and I try not to because I don't know how to get out of that
spiral sometimes. But um when we relinquish control over our food and our
fiber and our fuel, these things that we need to live and that are
necessary for human beings to live, then um
just that we lose control over it. We then no longer get a say
in what happens to that and, and essentially, then what happens to us. And
so um I think it's disappointing that we have less numbers of people who
are involved in agriculture and in a sense we're giving up that control to
maybe other countries or maybe, and I, I understand too that there's a
need for even international export, right? We, we have places that grow
coffee and bananas and stuff like that. We can't grow that here. So we
have to barter in exchange to some extent. But I think
when we give up farmland, really good farmland and things like that and we
have things like droughts and natural disasters that are happening, that's
out of our control. But I think that um, when we give up that land, we're
giving up that control. And um, that's so sad to me. Actually, I live out
in Gilbert. I don't know if you've been, but um, we have quite a few farms
out there that have been there probably forever. And a lot of our
neighborhoods that are in developments used to be farms or ranches and
they're named after that farm or ranch. And so to me it's, it's so sad.
Like it's fun. I get to live there and still see agriculture like daily.
Like there will be a tractor going down the road and you're just like
patient because it can only go so fast and you're like, I want to go 45
but this thing can go like 20. Um, it's humbling, um, to get to live there.
But at the same time, like, I'm living in a development that used to be a
farm and while my garden is probably better for it because it used to be a
farmland. So the soil is really great. Hopefully, I don't mess that up.
But, um, it also makes me really sad when I first moved out there, there
was a little dairy, tiny dairy compared to some of the larger dairies that
we have. Um, that probably went out of business a year somewhere in the
year up there. So all of a sudden it was gone paved over and now they're,
they're, you know, putting stuff on it. And to me, I'm just kind of like,
do we really need another tire store? Like, couldn't this farm have just
stayed here? Like I was fine with it? I don't think I have to go like,
like a mile down the road. There's another tire store. If I need a tire, I
can just go to that one. but that's just not how the world works. If you
can in a developed, in a developing area, you want to get in there quickly
because then you'll become like, you know, a mainstay or whatever. And, um
, so anyway, it makes me sad that farmland gets developed. But at the same
time our population is growing and like, what do you do with that? And
that's a completely another area almost. But um yeah, that makes me sad.
So let's talk a little bit about um what factors do you think influence
you to become involved in foods, food sustainability? What factors?
Well, so this kind of goes back to why I got involved in the first place
when I was taking my health care innovations class. They mentioned that um
, in that obesity was an epidemic and that we are a very unhealthy
population. Our American diet wasn't really serving us and that most
people die earlier in life because of our, our habits, our lifestyle
habits. And so whether that's inactivity, um or eating poorly, uh we
weren't taking care of ourselves and that we could prevent so much money
being kind of, I don't know if it's, I guess kind of wasted in health care
on ourselves because we're abusing our bodies in a way, we're not taking
care of them. We're not being good stewards of our body. Um And I don't
know, I guess I felt that that's something that I could do. That's
something that because it was interesting to me and I cared enough to
learn about chemistry and metabolism and how to cook things. And um, so
that's really what influenced me to get involved probably was the health
care system and the fact that we are a nation of unhealthy people and I
actually saw this in my family too. I mentioned I was a baker. I would
bake cookies. One of the things that we make at home a lot are these
things called Ginger Snaps and like Ginger Snaps are not the crunchy ones.
They were like soft and chewy and delicious. And we use Crisco, which is
the only thing today that I still use Crisco in because it just butter
just doesn't work.
Um But I was making this all the time because, you know, in some, some
people think that food is love. Um But I felt like I was, I felt like I
was loving my family by making these cookies. But then I realized I was
probably attributing to our excessive waistlines or, you know, I was
indulging, we were indulging too much in cookies or whatever. And so I
felt like I wasn't helping, I was hurting. And so, um switching nutrition
makes me feel like I'm doing good for the world by inspiring other people
hopefully to eat healthily and also like help make it normal. I think
that's something that in general is hard, even if you are someone who's
trying to take care of yourself, you might be in a culture of people or
whoever your people are. Um maybe not interested in doing that because
they're younger and they don't have to, they're not on medicine or they're
not sick yet or whatever. Um It's really hard to be healthy if you have
friends and family that aren't who, that's not their, their choice, that's
not their health, their lifestyle habits. And so, um, hopefully I'm
encouraging people to be healthy and happy and um, invest in themselves
and in the food that they eat. But, um, I think that's what motivates me
to stay here. For sure. Tell me about, um, let's talk a little bit about
food justice and what, what do you think is important to the future of
food justice that may not be on your questions? It is OK, good. Um I think
food justice um comes back to valuing people giving people workable wages
, um especially people who are working hard doing manual labor things you
would never want to do, you should pay those people, right? Um I um so I
think food justice comes back to that just valuing people and, and value
again, valuing food, but more importantly, valuing people for what they
provide for you. I don't know that there necessarily should be much of a
difference of someone who's an athlete who provides you entertainment
versus
arguably there probably should be a difference, but I don't think our
worlds are gonna go that way. Um Or even someone who's an engineer who
develops technology that makes your life easier. Um But what about this,
these basic needs that you have, which is few food, fiber and fuel. Um
What about those people who work in the sun? It is hot here. If, if, if
they're working in the summer months too, or even when it's cold outside,
like they're, and they're working hard doing things you would never want
to do. Like I said, um, so to me, food justice means valuing those people.
Ok. So I have one more question to go back a little bit about that first
internship, you said at the Phoenix Market. Yes. Can you tell me what um
that internship, not the internship, but talk about the program itself
that you were part of that was at the Phoenix market? Oh, so it wasn't
really a program. I don't think when I was there anyway, um maybe it
turned into more of a program but it was, we had a list of pre-approved
sites from our community, our community nutrition class that we could go
and spend 12 hours at. And there was like contact information, you set it
up as a student and you just experienced whatever it is that that
community place offered. Um And so I believe Cindy was my contact. And so
I contacted her, let her know what I was like, who I was and that I was
interested in, in helping volunteering. What can I do? Very helpful.
Please let me volunteer with you kind of a thing. And um so she took me on
, I ended up staying. Um but so the program was really with the school and
kind of a in informal contract if you will, with, with these different
community sites, it was kind of like if a student was interested in
working at that site, they would contact you, they would fulfill their 12
hours. Um Someone like Cindy would sign off on those 12 hours and then you
would never see the student again. I just really liked the market and
wanted to help Cindy. So I stayed there. So let's talk about the market
and what that was. Yeah, tell me what that was. So in Arizona, um we have
a few farmers markets. Um We keep getting more. Um But farmers markets are
places where, so Cindy was our market manager at Phoenix Polar Market. She
worked with a nonprofit called Community Connections and um
her role there was to bring vendors. So vendors would pay a certain amount
of money to be able to vend their weekly. Um We had a Wednesday and a
Saturday market. Um You also could pay for tents and tables and chairs or
you could provide your own, which I think most vendors brought their own,
especially if they were marketing a lot. Um We had produce vendors, Cindy
worked really hard to make sure there was enough food there to keep people
coming. Um So we had anything from ready to eat foods, like hot and ready
to eat foods to like we had coffee vendors who would come and set up like
a little coffee bistro thing there because who doesn't want coffee first
thing while they are running the market. Um We had crafts, um we had
people who make soap, um people who made things like bread, jewelry, um
art. She would also have like a local musician come in and we had food
trucks. So it was just kind of like this fun environment around food where
you could do your grocery shopping or you could just come and have
breakfast or you come and buy a gift or something like that. Um And I
think Cindy was really good at what she she does. So you said you were
able to use this snap card? Yes. So tell me about that and how you would
entice
people on a lower income to come to the market to purchase. That's a good
point. We have, um, we have a, well, we used to have someone who would
train certain producers for Wic and Farmers Market nutrition program
vouchers. So there are certain funds that then allow people with E BT
cards or those vouchers to then spend money on fresh produce at markets.
Um
We don't yet. I think some farmers might have offered a discount to those
vendors if they had like a voucher, but it really just allowed you to
spend your money, um, at a farmer's market, it did not necessarily give
you a discount as someone of lower income buying at a farmer's market. And
if you ever shopped at a farmer's market, you know that the prices are not
always uh cheap. And so something that we haven't been successful in, in
Arizona is something called like double, double up food Bucks, which then
provides an additional kind of um what's the word, some sort of assistance
to provide a lower rate uh for things like fresh fruits and vegetables to
participants of some sort of assistance program. What is that called?
Uh
I can't remember the word that people still come to the farmers market and
use. It's mostly for people who are not of low income status, for some
people who do shop there. I think it's more of the convenience that it's
their neighborhood right there. Um But because those items are expensive,
um, you don't see too many people shopping there with their, with their E
BT cards. We did see some but not always. Um which is something in general
, the community of food justice, the food justice people or the local food
people are really concerned about and something that we are hoping we can
make a difference in, but it is certainly not enough. Um because we don't
have some sort of program to help make that cheaper for those people. Um
It is difficult to incentivize them to come to the market for obvious
reasons. I think probably the reason that someone would go to a farmer's
market or choose to go to farmer's market, um is maybe a relationship with
a producer who might give you a discount, um, or, um, especially if it's
like, maybe not like the top item, like I said, like the ugly, the ugly
carrot. Like, you will sell me your ugly carrot for less or, or what have
you, you can kind of barter and negotiate if you have a relationship in
that way, which is kind of a neat thing about a farmers market. Um, but
mostly just that I don't have to find a car or take a bus and that adds
time and money on to my shopping trip outside of having actually, and
spend time at a, at a grocery store. So it's probably the people who live
right there downtown that you would see coming to spend their E BT money.
OK. So can you talk a little bit about um what you would like um the food
system in Phoenix to look like in 2040.
That's such a grandiose question. So
I think, and just kind of generically, I think that it would be nice to
see more people valuing the food producers in the area by supporting them
and investing in them. Um But also valuing the valuing healthy foods over
less healthy foods or valuing healthy components of the community over
less healthy components of the community. Um We talk about deserts in some
areas. It would be nice to see um grocery stores or farmers markets or
farm stands or what have you in areas of low access to fresh fruits and
vegetables and things like that. Um But in general, I think it would be
nice to see a food system that respects values and utilizes and invests in
its its people and that includes the people who produce food. Why is that
so important? And what don't people get about that? I don't, I think
people and I, I am this way at times too motivated by price. I mean,
you're used to living a certain way or you would like to live a certain
way because that is successful or comfortable or what have you. Um And so
that means you cut corners in some areas to make room for more luxurious
accommodations. Um And so when you value food is just that food, you don't
necessarily need to feel connected in one way or another. Like all you
care is that you're satisfying your hunger or, or possibly your desire to
eat something delicious um that you don't have to prepare or something
convenient or whatever. Um You tend to look for what the best price is
going to be instead of what your best value is going to be. Um And so I
think that's something that people don't get is um well, even too, I don't
think people understand from a nutrition perspective that people
understand that what you, what you choose to fuel your body with um is
going to impact your health down the road if not directly um, some people
struggle with disorders to where they see that impact regularly, whether
they have celiac disease or diabetes or whatever. And they can see that
their decisions relatively quickly depending on how they're managing that
disease. Whereas healthier people who maybe don't have an illness or they
don't go to the doctor, so they don't, maybe know what their illness may
be. The same could be with high blood pressure and all of that. Um You
don't see the direct impact in instantaneously. I think we're a society of
instant gratification. I want change to happen right now. I'm guilty of
that too. Um And so when you're not being a good steward of your body or
maybe even if your community, um you don't see the impacts or of the
choices that you make until sometimes it's too late while you're in the
hospital have to take medicine or um so and so that you really liked going
to or buying from like is now out of business and you see that a lot with
small businesses is that they don't necessarily make it because so and so
had it cheaper and they're a larger chain store, possibly and not a
smaller whatever business. And so um kind of supporting again and
investing in your neighbors and um making sure that they can stay afloat
is I think important, but that comes from like a people perspective and
needing, needing people in your life and needing that connection. Um But I
think we, we tend in general to think almost selfishly. I need to take
care of me, you know, and my choices are only going to impact me. But the
reality is that your choices have a long term effect on everyone. So, do
you have any final closing thoughts? Anything? I anything I didn't cover
that you would like to discuss,
you have a question about policy, which I wasn't necessarily going to say
anything about, but I actually went to is youth sustainability. Um Because
I'm a nerd, people are like, what are you doing tonight? You're like, I'm
skipping the gym because I'm going to go to a lecture.
They had a documentary called Just Eat It. So it was about food waste and
more, more call to action on the consumer level to eat what you buy and
kind of value what you buy and don't buy something you're not going to eat
or don't take more than you're going to eat and waste it because the
impacts are beyond you. Um And so because of my role at department,
there's not a whole lot I can do in terms of policy advocacy or policy
change. I kind of just steer clear from it. I know what rules and I'm just
like, I just don't, in a lot of ways, I think policy is just something
that's written on a piece of paper and it's not necessarily enforced. And
so in some ways I'm like, oh, we work so hard on policy but like at the
end of the day, people do whatever they want anyway. Um But after that
documentary, I realized we got into a conversation about, um city of Tempe
was talking about maybe, maybe developing a compost program in addition to
recycling and trash. And that's something that San Francisco does. And
I've always thought that was kind of neat. Like I would be way more
inclined to compost if someone would take care of the compost part for me
because I don't want smelly stuff in my backyard. And what if I do it
wrong? I have to have the right combination of, like, carbon and
phosphorus and like, ah, what if I don't do it? Right. And I think it's
probably not that complicated. Um, but it's certainly uncomfortable if
you're unfamiliar with it. And so, in some ways I'm like, that's a good
idea, incentivizing, changing a policy within a city government to say
we're gonna, we're gonna add composting to something that we do on top of
trash and recycle. Um, and some other policies that I think so. I think
sometimes it's policy can be smart to where it incentivizes someone to
change, um, as opposed to and making it like something you can choose to
do, but not, maybe required to do because I think when you require
something that not everyone agreed on, there's a lot of backlash and, um,
who needs more drama.
Um But the same thing with businesses to kind of incentivizing businesses
to change to or, or, or we talk about local wellness policies at schools,
um incentivizing change to happen by making it more something that is
allowable or normal as opposed to required. So that's all I was going to
say about that. Ok. Anything else that you'd like to cover? No. All right.
Well, thank you very much. It was great.
This is a continuation of our interview on August 28th. You were telling
me about the gardens on Central. Yes. So, um some of our smaller producers
actually really interesting their stories. Um One of one in particular is
our International Rescue Committee. They've kind of banned all of their uh
international farmers together and called them. They call themselves the
uh hila blanking now, Hela Cooper or he co op or something like that. But
they are RRC producers and they come from different countries of various
backgrounds and they grow really unique products that um grow really well
in our climate here, which is fascinating. Um And awesome to see. And I
really encourage them or this cooper to sell to our schools in the
capacity of our, our fresh produce, our fresh Fruit and Vegetable Grant
program. Um because that's a taste experience program, there's a little
bit extra money to spend on specialized items. Um And what better way to
teach kids about fruits and vegetables. But things that they would never
see in the grocery store or at home just because you can't access it at
the grocery store at home. Um, things like Persian cucumbers, which
they're huge. It's about this big in diameter I'd say. And, um, if you
were to, it kind of is kind of kinky and it looks like a snake almost. And
it has these huge ribbons of dark green and light green stripes. Um, so
they're growing like unique things like that. And those are the places too
where you'll see things like Amarin being growing and native, native crops
being grown um outside of um things that you could get at the grocery
store. And so um what's fascinating about that is not only that, that is a
great opportunity to buy local in schools but also to support a community
of um producers who come from different countries um and keep their, their
, their business or their cooper afloat, which, which is awesome.
Do you have any other programs that you wanna share about that?
Um What do you think are unique or creative? Now? I just wanna make sure
it's so let's talk a little bit about the healthy harvest um project. So,
something that a lot of states do for farm to school development is to
encourage food service to buy locally. They do that by um providing
procurement incentives in some way. Um or focal points, procurement, focal
points for schools by um developing marketing materials and family
newsletters that coincide with the growing season of a particular area. Um
Sometimes you see that coming from like a state department like ourselves
or you see that coming from a nonprofit that kind of service the whole
state or just a region of a state. Um It started in California, but the
idea is that once a month you pick a fruit or vegetable to focus on.
There's a lot of nutrition and agricultural facts that coincide with that
item to help kind of bridge the gap of where your food comes from. Um It's
great for food service because marketing materials are already developed.
That's something that food service does not have to invest any resources
in outside of possibly printing it. Um They put that in their um cafeteria
along with whatever they just choose to menu for that month. They
highlight it as a special item. Kids get really pumped about it. They
provide family newsletters that are part of this program back to um
parents that parents know about it and parents are really psyched about
food service. Um And often in some cases too, there are some classroom
material components, something for the teacher to then um correlate
whatever is happening in the cafeteria or growing in that area um back
into the classroom and whatever concepts are being learned there. And so
um we did a pilot project earlier this year with Tempe school district
where we created um we actually, it was our way of our way at the
department, helping schools or hopefully helping schools create marketing
materials that they don't have time to create, but also helping them to
focus on our vegetable subgroups of the National School lunch program. So
we chose to focus on vegetables, which is perfect because we grow a lot of
vegetables here and not a whole lot of fruit. And uh we wanted to focus on
three main subcategories of the National school lunch program, dark red
orange vegetables, dark green vegetables and then legumes or bean and pea
vegetables. The other two categories are other and starchy. So starchy are
things like corn and potatoes. Um regular potatoes because sweet potatoes
are considered an orange vegetable. Um but then the other is where things
like asparagus and red beets and like no bok choy is are green, um like
green beans end up like the other is kind of like the misfits that don't
fit into the other categories. So, um anyway, because dark green, dark red
orange and the bean and pea categories are a struggle point for food
service to get kids to eat. We thought let's try developing marketing
materials and special menu items that will get kids excited about the
specialness of these vegetables. And so we, we developed these marketing
materials in partnership with Arizona Department of Health Services. Um
They had a dietitian on staff, they had a Spanish translator on staff and
um we use, we ended up using both the Arizona Department of Education's um
graphic design artist, but then also the graphic design artist of, of
Department of Health. Um just because there was a lot of work to go in
building these materials and everyone is busy. So we just kind of divided
projects and, and we got it done. So I mean, it took like six months to
develop those materials which I way underestimated I was like, so I'll
just write these things up really quickly and know there's so many
approvals and everything that we had to get through. But in the long run,
it was um they, they're beautiful items. I'm really happy that we were
able to do it. It was something I wanted to do for years. And I'm, we find
out later this in September if we get to expand that program with some
grant funds, but we have four categories. We picked five items. Only four
of them are complete. There's 1/5 item of that. We kind of because with
the national school lunch program subcategories, um beans are considered a
vegetable or a meat alternative. And in years prior in lots of USDA
marketing and nutrition education that um beans were only considered a
meat alternative for years. And so there was no um we weren't going to,
there was no pre existing material to look at on how to talk about beans
as a vegetable like pinto beans or garbanzo beans or something like that.
And so we decided the Department of Ed decided that we were going to do
everything. But the family newsletter for that, the family newsletter was
our most content heavy piece or item that we created out of this series.
We created um posters for the cafeteria. We created a family newsletter
and we created a banner and each banner um that's probably 5 ft tall,
let's say um was just a big, a big item that could be moved around in the
cafeteria, which is important for food service. Um That then just talked
in general about each of those categories. So we had a dark green one, a
bean and pea one and a dark red orange one. And it really just gave why
it's important to eat from this category. Um Some pictures of some common
ones that you might see, they had a calendar of Arizona's growing season
of this particular color of vegetables and just some, it was just really
nice to look at something that would really grab someone's attention if
they were going through the lunch line. And then we had little posters for
each particular item that we chose to focus on for the pilot. Um So we
focused on winter squash in January, um spinach in February, broccoli in
March and then carrots in April and then beans in in May. So for the whole
spring semester, we focused on one item throughout the month and, uh, they
, we offered it once a week throughout Tempe school district at three
different. Well, we offered it many, many wide or district wide, they have
about 20 sites and then we went out and did some, some observational
studies and coincide with production records from, from food service. What
so they mark on these production records, what they produce, what's being
served and what's left over. And then we compared that against what we saw
in the cafeteria, which was kind of intimidating to like, go and watch
kids eat food because of course, they're curious and they totally know
that you're there for that reason. After a while, they're like, you're
going to watch me eat something and we try to be discreet about it, but it
did not work for a while. We try to be just like extra aids in the
cafeteria. But after a while the kids are pretty smart, they're like, what
are you watching me eat today? And we're like just your spinach salad.
Um, so anyway, we created that program which is, it's not, I wouldn't say
it's creative or innovative per se. Um, because other states have done it
too. But what's different about our program compared to other programs is
that we chose to focus on vegetables that directly in that are directly,
um, from the National School Lunch program and that we only focused on
vegetables and not also fruits. But I mean, I think it would have looked
similar if we hadn't really particularly thought about that because we're
such a vegetable heavy state. Why was it important to connect the dots of
doing the newsletter and like having the um the from the cooking to the
Children, to the families, to the administration? Why, why was connecting
all those dots critical? So connecting all the dots are super important
and they be important outside of primary school too is just that those
departments within a school are not always known for um communicating well
with one another. Often cafeteria is very siloed from classroom and
sometimes even administration is kind of siloed from the other two. Um So
it's really important when you're doing something like farm to school,
which is benefit to the entire school community to let parents know that
this is what's happening in the cafeteria. It brings a connection point
from parents and teachers and students that the cafeteria is doing
something really great and different and this is why we're doing it and
this is what we're doing. Um It's important to have marketing materials in
the cafeterias that you remember that today is the day we're surfing
butternut squash. Um And it's really important for administration to be on
board too because they obviously want to serve a really great program in
all of their schools. And the better conducted, all of those departments
are the stronger that program is going to be. And the I think just in
general, the happier everyone is going to be because everyone is on the
same page at that point. So, so let's talk a little bit about the farm to
preschool. So farm to preschool is a relatively new, new uh era of pharm
to school. I'd say for a long time. And this happens, I think too in
general with like national school lunch program. Um
we, we saw changes of the national school lunch nutrition requirements
change 10 years ago in 2010 with the healthy younger Free Kids Act. Um but
we didn't see similar changes with our our child and adult care program.
Um So they kind of got like this second like, oh ok, this works. So let's
try, you know, working with our younger kids, which is so interesting
because developmentally um 0 to 5 is so important for kids development.
And so why are we not using things like gardens in their education or
their learning, sensory learning is super important for those kids. And so
um it's kind of a growing movement now to to focus beyond K through 12 and
working with that younger population to understand where their food is
coming from, but more likely to, but maybe more importantly to get them to
invest in being more open minded palate wise with their their vegetables.
Um and to try new things because it is only going to invest in what kind
of kids or palates. We we, we have adapted when they grow older and, and
you know, enter elementary school. So um we are beginning those works now
to, to focus on those um those clients or those kiddos. And uh our
Maricopa County Health Department is actually doing a focus group with
homes and centers of who operate uh like a preschool type setting. And uh
we're talking with owners and we're talking with staff about what is their
interest or prior knowledge of under preschool and what is their interest
in implementing and what barriers are, are what would make them hesitant
to start and how can we help um bridge that gap kind of and so that's
pretty exciting um news for sure. I, I imagine that many of them will want
to start gardens, which is fun. Um because like I had mentioned, kids get
so excited about growing things, but what's also interesting is that
adults get so excited to watch kids get excited about growing food. So, um
then everyone's learning together too. So like little kids are so much
more um adaptable, it seems to a failure, you know, all that failed. It's
ok, you know, and, and because you're an adult trying to make it ok for a
little kid, you're almost more, more ok with that failure and like, um
it's just, it's just trial and error, but I think that everyone's happier
with that failure than, than maybe in other instances. Ok. Do you have
anything else? To share that just came to mind
that we didn't cover any of the programs projects. There is one thing and
it's not done yet. So I work for that Holy Harvest program. I will
eventually have a report available that showcases what we've seen. So did
we see increased consumption or did we not really see much of a difference
? Um And I'm also gonna finish right now. We have a school garden map
which is not innovative or anything but other states have that too. Um, a
map of where all of our school gardens are in Arizona and that's K through
12. It doesn't include preschool, but it's, and it's just a Google map at
this point. I have to justify spending money on something that's better,
um um more expensive than free.
But uh we have about 200 school gardens in Arizona. From what, from the
information we've gathered that is about about 2000 schools in Arizona. So
it's about 10% of our schools have school gardens, active school gardens.
We verified that earlier this year. Um
And we have garden maps so you can see where, where it is. So on our
website A zed.gov, um You can look at our garden map right now. You can
only look at gardens in Maricopa County, but Maricopa County and Pima
County are our most populated counties and that's where most of our
gardens are located. But we do have some that are more rural or other
counties. So that's exciting.
Anything else?
No. Ok. Thank you.