Mm
This is Holly Solis interviewing Seth mcmanus, right? Um For Ap on April
7th, 2015 for undocumented places. Um So just to start, can you tell us
where you're from and where you've grown up? Yeah. So I'm originally from
Charlotte, North Carolina, the world, the metro region, but not
specifically in the city. So about 30 minutes outside the city, um a small
town called Rock Hill, South Carolina and um you know, people that know
Charlotte geographically, it's right on the state line. So people
sometimes get confused. Are you from North Count? Are you from South
Carolina? But I am actually from North Count where I was born, but I grew
up in South Carolina. So um yeah, I went, I lived there till I was about
18 and then I moved to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina where I went to
college, uh Costa Carolina University. It's a fouryear liberal arts
institution. And so I spent about five years in that area and then I moved
to Miami Florida for a year where I worked as a residence hall coordinator.
And then I ended up here at a su about four years ago for grad school and
then um worked in housing here for three years and currently working and
study abroad here at a su uh what is, how is, is living in Arizona
different than living in uh Miami or in, I think. Well, Miami, Miami is a
very unique place because it's pretty much an international city. So you
see a lot of um people from, especially the islands in the Caribbean and
really all over the world, which was very different coming from Carolina
because a lot of times I'd go into the grocery store and be the only
native English speaker in the area of town that I lived in or there was a
large Haitian population. And even culturally, it was very different
because, you know, if you're at a stoplight and you don't immediately go
when the light turns green, they start honking at you, kind of like in how
they do in Puerto Rico or, you know, your other areas in the world. Um But
Arizona and South Carolina are kind of unique, I think because the
political environments are very similar um between the Carolinas and
Arizona. Both areas are really fast growing. And so that's changing the
political dynamics within the state. But then you still have these really
uh conservative streaks within the states that are long standing, right?
So those people who have been there for a long time tend to be like older
white men that still have the political control. But the masses and the
people that live within the state are changing. So you have these changing
dynamics. I joke a lot that Arizona is kind of like the Carolina of the
West Coast because they're always in the news, even when I did my study
abroad in 2010, I was in Costa Rica and that's when SB 1070 was a huge
deal here. And it was crazy because even outside of the country at that
point in Costa Rica, they were still talking about SB 1070 in Arizona
outside of the US. And there were so many other things going on in the
world, but that's what people were talking about and they wanted to know
what was going on. Like, why is this a big deal in Arizona? Why are they
trying to pass this legislation? And it was interesting being outside of
the country when that was happening, hearing people's take on it actually
being in a, you know, a Spanish speaking and Hispanic speaking area. Um it
was interesting to hear their perspectives because it actually made me
understand that they are issues related to immigration in many countries
around the world. Costa Rica being one of them as well because I was
surprised my host mother being Costa Rican. I thought she might have a
different take on it as far as I thought she might be against it because
being a dark skinned woman maybe coming to the US feeling racially
profiled because of a bill like that. But she actually was in support of
the bill, which really surprised me. So it gave me the opportunity to kind
of ask questions and learn about why she thought that that bill was a good
thing for Arizona. And it come, come to find out she had an issue with a
lot of the Nicaraguans that were migrating into Costa Rica. And she, she
kind of related the Mexico and US relations to Nicaragua and Costa Rica as
you know, Nicaraguans tend to be darker skinned as well. So you can kind
of see a difference in them versus Costa Ricans and they, she kind of had
a similar take on it as a lot of Americans tend to have on immigration in
the US. So I thought that was interesting that there was a lot of
parallels even though it was a different country that I was in. Uh how was
your experience of studying abroad? What did you bring back from that?
That made you look at immigration and everything? Did that bring? Uh was
it any different when you came back? Oh, yeah, I think that's actually a
really good question because I didn't think it was going to impact me the
way that it did. But then when I came back from it, it really, I was only
there for a month, which is a short term program, but it was really
impactful because I learned a lot just by going in trial and error being
in an environment that I didn't know I was going to be really
uncomfortable in and I got there and learning that, you know, growing up
in the South and never really having left the South, you know, flip flops
are normal. You just wear that every day, you know, shorts and flip flops
and boat shoes and tank tops or polos and you're good. But I wore that
stuff in Costa Rica and people really looked at me weird and I had never
been on the other side of that. Um I had to ride the bus to school every
day. And when I got on the bus, I was wearing flip flops and people
actually laughed at me, which I never had experienced that. Like I was
like, wait, no, this is cool. Like how can you be laughing at me? I'm
wearing rainbows. These are expensive, right? But they, they laughed at me
and they kinda made fun of me. And I was also the only white guy on the
bus, like American English speaking white guy. They are white Costa Ricans
as well. But what they would call like Americano or gringo. And um that
experience of feeling different than other people or even I found myself
towards the end of my time trying to assimilate to their culture which now
working in study abroad, I know is actually very normal for students to do
when they go abroad to try to buy clothing to then assimilate to that
population that I found myself going and actually picking up like some
Costa Rican trends and buying some Costa Rica branded things and trying to
assimilate to that culture because that was had kind of become my new
normal. So when I came back to the U SI kind of brought that with me
because I remember what those experiences felt like of the times that I
was kind of like looked at differently or what I thought, how I thought
things should be was not how they were there. And that was OK, like I kind
of learned a new way of doing a lot of things. So it kind of, it really
did change the way that I look at things. Um Did you do that study abroad
before you started working with Dream Zone? I did. Yeah, I did. So I did
that and as my senior year in undergrad and then I didn't start working
with Dream Zone until probably about a year and a half ago. OK. Um So how
did you get actually? Could you explain what Dream Zone is first? Yeah. So
Dream Zone is an Ally Certification program for um faculty staff and
students here at A SU is how it started. It's grown to be a lot more than
that, but it um basically is trying to educate um our local community here
at A U about issues facing undocumented students, but specifically
dreamers um in regards to how to navigate the higher education setting. So
a lot of times these students face a lot of the same challenges that
version American college students, native born college students face, um
which would be like a lot of barriers because maybe if they are the first
one, they don't know what, they don't know what they don't know is what we
kind of say. So they don't know what the financial aid office is. They
don't know what a FASFA is. They don't know that they have an academic
avis or they don't know how to register for classes. So trying to help
those students navigate that. But then the other barrier is the financial
piece that um undocumented students can't complete a FASFA. So um
basically training staff on how to be cognizant of those issues that these
students are facing. And if um an undocumented person were to come out to
them knowing how to address that and in the sense of supporting them, how
to connect them in with resources, I think one of the most valuable things
that dreams did is it created a network of allies here at a su um for
people to network amongst apartments, which I thought was a really
valuable resource because what can happen is if, if when disclosed in um
trio program that they were undocumented, for instance, I then could be in
contact when I was working in housing with the trio person. If the student
was ok with them, sharing that disclosure of how to navigate other areas
of the universities, they might could call over to their contact in the
study abroad office which also completed the certification and understood
um the the issues surrounding dreamers that they were facing, how to help
them best navigate that. So it created a really strong network of allies
here at ASU and it actually has grown to be so much more than that. So now
it's kind of creating a national network of allies. How has it created
that national network? So who has reached through that? Yeah. So I think
several of the facilitators have within, I guess their focuses of control
have gone and kind of spread dream zone in their different areas, um
attending national conferences. So Jesus Cisneros and Rodriguez, they're
the original founders and they've gotten other um facilitators on board,
but they still are the ones out champion at most. Um I know one of the
things that we worked on was Davie wanted to go to the Clinton Global
Initiative University and we Jesus and I led the effort to get people out
to vote at a su for it. Um Basically, the program was in what was called a
sweet 16 bracket and the winner would get recognized at the conference to
get to meet Bill Clinton and get the recognition and the prestige. And so
we worked here to lead like a get out the vote effort to bring on 111
piece was getting the awareness out about what dream song was. But the
other piece was, could you please submit a vote for Arizona State
University for entrepreneurship for us to get this recognition? And so we
all worked within our different networks. So Jesus was more on the
academic side and then I was, I had housing covered and more of like uh
educational outreach and student services and working with them to try to
get out the vote and then also ourselves setting alarm clocks in the
middle of the night to get up and vote to make sure because you could vote
like multiple times. So we were just basically not sleeping there in that
time and trying to get as many votes as we could um in each bracket, you
know, the voting would restart. So when you would win, it would be like a
24 hour bracket. And so whichever team got the most votes would move on to
the next level. So each time it kept resetting, but we went on to win that
, we didn't find out until they announced it at the conference. So we were
like watching it and we were really excited. But then Bill Clinton was now
talking about Dream zone and then you've got like 1000 college age
undergraduate um, change makers basically there listening to what this is.
And so I think that sparked a discussion but things like that. So going
to these conferences and they went to a P A conference, I think in Hawaii
and presented um things like NASA, which would be the higher education
conference um networking with the universities here in Arizona. So, Nau
and Tucson um getting involved with Teach for America. So kind of expanded
even outside of just higher ed, but maybe into K through 12. So just using
networks that you've made uh does any U and U of a have a dream zone
workshop? I don't know what level they are currently. I know that they
both have expressed interest in starting one. And I know that facilitators
have gone up to Flagstaff to work on things and I know that there has been
contact with U FA. But I think Daer and, and Jesus will probably be the
most versed on that. Um So what do you do for Jone? So I help facilitate
the four hour certification course um basically upon request. So a lot of
times when they Jesus and Daer will kind of lead the structure of it as
far as setting up the schedule and then if there's one that needs covering
a lot of times they will outreach to me to see if I'm available to help
cover that. Um In my old department, I was able to use time during the
work day to present. And, and basically, I had more of a flex schedule. So
I was able to go a lot of times the certifications are during the work day.
So they would be like maybe 8 a.m. to lunchtime or lunchtime to 4 p.m. So
I was able to use my time at work to go and do that now that I'm in a more
formal office setting and study abroad. And they just, the reality is, is
that there isn't as, it's harder to sell the value of it in study abroad
because there's so many more barriers for an undocumented student to study
abroad than there was for them to live in housing. Um That I think I have
a hard time convincing the department to allow me use office time to
facilitate that. So I haven't facilitated any in the last seven months
because of my career change. But I would be able to if it was outside of
work. But basically, if they have a session open, they will outreach to me
see if I'm available to help facilitate and then I typically serve in the
capacity as a co facilitator. Um But one of the dynamics I think that I do
bring is um being an ally and not having been someone that was personally
affected by being undocumented. Um I think I love the dynamic of
presenting with Xavier or Jesus because they have very unique insights
growing up in Hispanic areas. Um And you know, the ties that they have and
the friends that they have are not the way that I grew up. So I think we
bring very different insights into it. So I really enjoy presenting with
them because I feel like I have something that I can bring to the table,
that's a different perspective and I think it makes the sessions a little
more dynamic. Um So to be a facilitator, do you do uh research on
resources on the history of the movement? What exactly does that per uh
pertain? So for me, I just expressed interest. Um h well, they both know
me personally and they know that I am basically a news junkie. I watch the
news for three hours a day and I like to read articles and I'm really
interested in ideas and how like social change happens and what motivates
people and what's happening politically because a lot of times, a lot of
political issues are really intertwined as far as like, you know, how does
the minimum wage hike tie into education cuts which then tie ins to
undocumented people. All of these things are these hot topics that are
going on in politics. They all seem to have uh a common root that they
come from. And so I think just knowing me personally, they knew that that
was something that I was really interested in and that they knew that um I
kind of had a level of competency because of that, that I think most
people probably don't have because they're just not, it's not a hobby for
them as much as it as it is for me. But for me, their preparation was, um
, getting the information that they had built. So they built dreams on it
was their baby. And then they kind of showed me what they had and then I
kind of even gave feedback on what I thought. So, um, like one of the
things, they have a vocabulary section and um one of the things that I
noticed wasn't on there that I actually heard tossed around a lot in
politics was this term like sanctuary cities. And so um what that is, is
actually um cities that contrary to federal or state law, try to create
environments that are more welcoming for undocumented people. So and it,
it can sometimes can be used in a pejorative way I think is like, oh,
there's a sanctuary city, we don't want to be like Los Angeles, they're a
sanctuary city, they condone the, you know, elite, these illegals coming
into the country and using government benefits and they, they remove
barriers for undocumented people. So therefore, people that are
undocumented, migrate to those cities because it's a more welcoming
environment versus a hostile environment which some states try to create,
to drive undocumented people. So that was an example of something that I
noticed that was missing that I tried to um like, oh, have you all thought
about adding this? But a lot of it was, they went through and they were
like, these are the things that we have in the powerpoint. Let's talk
about slides that we can talk about. Which, what will you talk about? What
will I talk about? And then some of the things I wasn't aware of. So it
did require a little bit of research on my part just reading them. So um
the political things I knew more so, but then the student narratives and
learning um some about the undocumented um panel that they work with where
they bring in um undocumented students, typically about 12 or three of
them um to speak to the group um getting to know them personally and, and
understanding their stories and kind of how to coordinate that although
they typically do coordinate that, but it's nice knowing them by name when
I show up or having a, a history with them. Um So who is Dream zone for?
Exactly. Um Well, I think it's a, a very inclusive uh certification course.
So there's no one that it would not be for. Um I think it's, it has
something for everyone in it. That's one of the things that drew me to it.
Um I was actually talking about this last night to Daer. I, I was telling
him one of the things I really love because he was asking how do you reach
people that don't really care about an issue? Right? Like they think that
their way of thinking is right. And they don't really are open to new
information. And that's one of the things that I think is really great
about dream zone is there are a lot of people that finish dream zone and
they come in thinking one way and they may not leave agreeing with what
they've heard. Um Because all we do is try to present the information to
them in an unbiased way. We try to make it about student success and they
can do what they want with it. It's about creating safe environments for
those students. But I think a lot of times you can't help but see and
sense the political elements as they tie into it, especially when we get
into the political environment surrounding things like deferred action for
childhood arrivals, DACA um or some of the legislations, even, you know,
South Canada has some of the toughest in the nation. So being from there
and then I can kind of share my experience. But um I think it's really for
anybody because the actual certification, I feel like it changes the way
that people think regardless of where they're coming from. So for instance
, one of the times that Jesus led a session and I wasn't even at this
session, but it stuck with me and he told me the story that um someone
from the, the Veteran Center came in and they were trying to get certified
and just for work in the office and they went in and when she left, she's
like, I just wanna let you know that like this really impacted me and um
me and my husband are gonna go home and have a talk about this tonight
because it changed the way that I thought about immigration in Arizona
because there, there's so much more to it than what I was thinking about.
There's more elements and it's more complex than what I had originally
thought. And so I think that dream zone in that regard is a really great
um tool for serving as an agent of change here to, to change the way that
people think about an issue. And if nothing else to get them questioning
what they think about it because the goal isn't to like indoctrinate them
and make them agree with everything that we think. Um But it's more along
the lines of this is kind of the environment right now. And what do you
think about this and how do we remove some of these barriers and create
safer spaces for students? So I think in that way, it's very inclusive and
we have students that come as well. So a lot of times we have students
that are really passionate about the calls and they're not, they're not
student leaders, they're not employees, they're not faculty or staff, but
they just want to participate and they're always welcome to and, and like
I said, we're trying to expand it outside of just um a su so not just to
other four year institutions but also um community colleges in the works.
Um There is some debate right now, I think even among stream zone of the
direction because we are trying to spread so much. And then it's like,
well, what are our common goals? What are, what is kind of our audience of
who we really want to be reaching? Um So that's actually a discussion. I
think that's going on right now with the future of Dream Zone because it
doesn't really have a set home here at a su because it was started by
students and students come and go and we graduate and people that work at
the university move on to new career path. So I think right now that is
part of the discussion is kind of what is the common purpose? Who are we
gonna really target and serve? Although we're open to everyone, what is
our target audience moving forward? And where is the home of Dream Zone?
Kind of um what resources do you uh give to undocumented students? Do you
do that or is it just the certification for faculty and staff? Um I know
that we are, that's been another debate. I think within as far as what the
roll of dreams on is, of course, like I said, we're open to everyone and I
think it has kind of morphed into that support. For undocumented students
because they see that as a visible support system here at a SU and
especially in a place where there aren't a lot of visible support networks.
I think that there have been a lot of undocumented students that have
kind of lashed onto it. But on the flip side of that, because of the
environment here in Arizona surrounding undocumented students, the reality
is there aren't that many at a SU I think I was um hearing that there was
about 50 how they retrieved that data was just looking at students that
graduated from a su high schools that were paying out of state tuition. Um
was the only metric right now. So there could be more than that, but that
was the metric that they were using. So out of 75 80,000 enrolled students
only 50. So it is serving as for those 58 a support network. But I think a
lot of times those students will serve on our panel if they feel
comfortable doing that. But um they'll develop personal relationships with
some of the facilitators and we kind of will take on more of like a
mentorship role or I know there's one student that we've helped. Um She's
actually because she's paying out of state tuition even though she is a
high school graduate of Arizona and grew up in Arizona. Um because of her
undocumented status, even though she's a honors student in Barrett, she's
paying out of state tuition. And um, so she's paying double and she
doesn't have a fast, she doesn't, she's not eligible for any student loans.
And so, um one of the things that we've done is try to help her raise
funds, find money in different apartments in the university that can be
eligible for scholarships that may not require a social security number,
um private scholarships, things like that and even sometimes donating some
of our own money to try to help her reach that goal. So um I think more
informal relationships, but um definitely creating that formal network as
well because we have the online database. So you students can actually
search online and find a name of someone in each department that is Dream
Zone certified. So aside from just the placard, there's the electronic
resource of being able to get online and search for that. Um is the the
story of um the young lady who's paying out of state tuition. Is that
typical of most is her story typical of most students that you've met? I
think. Well, it is the ones that I've met, but that's a discussion right
now, even within I think the the ally and uh community for undocumented
students is because there's now there's these, these like stereotypical
dreamers, which is kind of what's happened is because people are trying to
create change and to create discussion around this topic, people have gone
and kind of picked the cream of the crop of the dreamers. And so this
perception has kind of been created of like, oh, well, all of these
dreamers, they're all like a students and they all want to be done,
doctors and lawyers and engineers and they are being, you know, they're
having to pay out of state tuition and these are all the barriers. But the
reality is that there are some of everyone, right. There's what I students
like myself, that would be considered average, you know, a 3.0 student or
, you know, even students that just want to go to community college, they
may not want to go to a four year institution, but there are tons of
students out there. It's really shocking to me because when I think about
the fact of even the barriers that they face, you know, as far as, um,
talking with a lot of the, the undocumented students that I've met when I
even found, found out and I meet them and they tell me that they just
finished two years at the community college, I think. Wow. Like that's
pretty amazing because I don't know that I could have done that. You know
, I think about, uh, I've, I've completed graduate school but if I had to
pay and work two jobs, pay out of state tuition and go to a community
college while trying to support my family and trying to do all these other
things that I barriers, I didn't have, I don't know that I could have done
it. So I have a lot of respect for them when I, when I find that out. But
I think that the undocumented undocumented experience in Arizona,
particularly, um and in many states is unique, but it's gonna vary from
state to state because state policies dictate the education policy. So
California, even though they're right next door to us has a very different
policy on undocumented students versus what Arizona is doing. Um But I do
find it typical that a lot of dreamers that I meet are really hard working.
I think there could be some bias in that because I work in the higher ed
setting. So I'm gonna be exposed to students that are trying to pursue
higher education here at a su versus when I go into Phoenix and I'm
volunteering with um organizations for undocumented people there. I'm
meeting a completely different demographic of people that may not have
even thought or have access to higher education. So I, I guess I recognize
the bias because I'm meeting them in a university setting. But the ones
that I do meet here are really, really driven and I mean, I think that's
kind of the the heartbreaking part of the whole thing, right is that
you're meeting these students and they are doing everything they
absolutely can do to be successful, but they're not able to achieve what
they're trying to achieve. So I think it's kind of put in people's heads
this American mentality. Well, you can be anything you want to be. Right.
Or, you know, like, there's no, nothing can ever stop you if you have a
goal. But for these students, when you talk to them, they, they, they're
at a dead end, you know, they've done literally everything they absolutely
can do. They're like doing car washes on the weekend. They're fundraising.
They're, they're applying to every scholarship they can find, they're
networking. They're making straight A's in the courses that they're in.
They've done, they're working a job on the side, they're doing all of
these things and they still just the, their goal they can't get there.
Right. So, even if they graduate, there was um a student in a documentary
was an, a SU student and he had graduated from a su with a degree in
engineering. So high demand field which most students that they graduated
and they were a citizen would graduate and make probably at least 70,000 a
year, a pretty decent salary. Um But this, this guy had graduated, he was
undocumented and he was here on a um that wasn't funded through the state.
So he was able to pay for his whole education here for all four years and
graduated with honors with an engineering degree which is really hard to
do. If you know anyone in engineering, it's a really difficult um um field
to go into, I think and to make grades like that and graduate. And he
graduated from a su has this degree and wants to contribute but can't
because he's, he's undocumented. So no engineering firm is gonna hire him.
And right now, according to the documentary, after a year or two out, he
was um working with his dad doing brick masonry um in Mesa. So he's out
building houses and stuck going to houses with his engineering degree
simply because he's not documented and there's no path, there's no pathway
for him. So that's the frustrating thing is listening to these students.
There's, I'm a solution driven person. So I want to sit down with these
students and try to help them. But I think that's the really hard part is
that a lot of the students that I do meet here at a su um that are doing
everything they possibly can do to be successful and they want to
contribute and they want to be a part of, of the country and they want to
do something with their lives. Um That's bigger than just themselves and
they're meeting all these barriers and they're literally at a dead end.
But I think talking with them and getting to know them is one of the
things that I've used to really try to influence people that I know. Um
even just family members of mine coming from a really conservative family.
Um I take those stories home with me, you know, and I kind of put them
out there and I question people because there are a lot of misconceptions
um about undocumented people a lot. And I try to dispel them by using some
of those stories. Um because it, even though I, like I said, I didn't grow
up knowing them. Now it is personal to me because I've met them and I've
heard their story and I want people to know that they're there, you know
that they, cause a lot of times you would walk past them because they're
an invisible population and you wouldn't even know that. So I do try to um
get their stories out as, as much as I can. So that people, I think more
along the lines of know that they're there because I don't know that I
would have if I hadn't have met them. Um because I, I immigration in
general is, is really tricky. Um And it's funny, my sister just married um
a, a guy from London from Britain and they're going through the, the
immigration process and it was a great time for me to be able to have a
conversation with my family about immigration as it relates to documented
people, but specifically dreamers because they're all they've done is
complain about the process and it really hit a nerve with me because I'm
like, wow, like what a privilege you have to come from Europe to come from
England of all places um to be white to be able to immigrate here and just
assimilate to the culture. Have people want you here, right? You go out in
public, people love your accent. They welcome you. But imagine if you had
been from Mexico or even from Central or South America and you had um
married my sister and you now are Spanish speaking, people would probably
say things like go back to Mexico would be very unwelcoming to you. So
what a privilege you have to come here and on top of that to be able to
marry an American. And so when he complains, I remind him, you're on the
fast track. So in the scheme of immigration to marry an American and be
from Europe. Wow, that's the quickest way to do it. So he's complaining
about a six month process or all the forms he has to fill out or, you know
, the fact that it cost him $2000. And I think about um a lot of Hispanics
that I know that are going through the process and they're paying way
beyond that. They're waiting way longer, they're filling out way more
forms and they're being treated very differently. So I think because of
that, because of what's happened with my sister and who she married, it's
created a dialogue in my family about immigration.
I probably got way off from your question. Um So uh just to go back just a
little bit. Um Do you uh either help out or do you attend any other
organizations in um the area that deal with undocumented youth? Um Not as
much as I would like. Um I was, I've been to an organization called Quit,
um which is for queer undocumented um people in the Phoenix area, like a
local chapter. Um But I was not able because of time constraints in my job
when I was in housing, I had a lot of nontraditional hours. So I haven't
been able to connect in as much as I would like. So it's pretty much right
now just dream zone. And then um what I know about quip through Jesus and
because they're both really involved with that organization and they're
more about immigrant rights as a whole. So more public policy and things
like that. But um I try to serve in a different capacity, I guess, more
informally um by advocating like within my, like my job here at a su and
within different department networks that I have. Um for example, one of
the things that I've done so it's not a formal organization. But through
my job, an opportunity came along to attend a webinar on how to support
undocumented students in the field of study abroad. So then I was able to
kind of tie it back into my job and serve as an ally in my position um
without it seeming political, right? Um And having relevance. So I had
requested to attend the webinar. It was actually over lunch. So it wasn't
an issue. They were like, sure, of course, I go find out what other study
abroad offices are doing. And so actually found out that University of
Texas Austin has um actual, they have listed a section four dreamers and a
documented students to study abroad on their website. So talking about
that visi visible support element and they talked about the barriers and
how they've helped students and the fact that they have had an
undocumented student study abroad and how they were able to do that. So
the student actually had to be documented or um have a legal like a
deferred action status to be able to go. Um but they talked about the
unique experience of being a documented student and a DACA recipient
recipient and going abroad and that visible support piece. So basically, I
took a lot of, a lot away from that hour and a half webinar and I brought
that back to my department and we're kind of in discussions now because
it's something that I'm trying to move forward. Um We're about to unveil a
new website. I don't have it on there yet, but I'm hopeful that I can
convince the director that it is something important to have because I
think um being the size of a U A she really wants, they say they want to
be on the cutting edge of things. So I tried to tell them like if you want
to be innovative and you want to be on the cutting edge, this is where you
need to go. This is one area that needs to be addressed and have that
visible support out there for those students. Um Because visibility is so
big when you're dealing with an invisible population, you don't know who
those students are. So you need to be very visible so that they can see
you because you're not going to be able to go and find them. And so that's
kind of what I'm trying to relate to them that um you know, we have LGBT Q
students on there, we have the veterans section, we have a online section
. I think it's just a natural fit to then have the dreamers or an
undocumented student section on there and if nothing else for them to, to
have that information available, um But hopefully so that they can connect
in with staff as well. Um And we can connect them to other resources using
that network. Um That's right. So you said that you, um so have you, have
you hit any really big barriers trying to uh get your office to start
doing that? I know you said that you're trying to convince somebody that
were there any big barriers? II I think it's hard and study abroad because
we, the answer from administration has been um I'll leave it kind of
ambiguous because I want to keep my job. But um the answer for
administration has, has been more along the lines of that. We don't have
undocumented students studying abroad because you have to have a pass us
passport or if you have a passport from another country, you have to have
a visa. So there's a, it's a process that would be nearly impossible for
undocumented student until DACA came along, which was in, uh you know, I
think summer of 2012, but even that was an executive action. So it's
political, it could change depending on who wins the presidency next and
what their vision is for that process, it only lasts every, it only lasts
for two years. So I think the discussion prior to DACA was we're not
serving this population because of DACA. Um it now is possible technically
for those students to study abroad, but it's not something they're
different than our other populations for study abroad because we wouldn't
be specifically targeting them. Um for documented students. It would kind
of be like, oh, you need to study abroad for your academic program. Well,
then the first question will be, is there anything you could do to fulfill
that requirement without going abroad? Because the advice from
institutions that are helping uh DACA recipients is that we should not be
encouraging the students because there is a risk that they may not be able
to get back in the country because as with a lot of things it kind of
depends on who you run into when you're going through immigration. So some
student have no issue and some can get detained or some may have issues.
Um because the, the the people that they're, they're going through the
process with may or may not be aware of document are being documented and
what that process is. And they actually have to apply for another special
form. The name escapes me at the moment, but they have to apply before
they leave to be able to re enter and they may not know what that form is.
So there's still a lot of barriers so they still don't want to target
necessarily undocumented students as a population to encourage to go
abroad. But more along the lines of to have those resources there, if an
undocumented student walks in the office and they know they want to study
abroad and that's what they want to do and they understand the risk
associated with it. We then have the resources to serve that population.
So it's, it's different than other students where we're really out there
trying to encourage all students to have this experience and go abroad and
find scholarships and find a way to make it happen. Um But I think that
the main barrier is that prior to DACA, we weren't serving those students.
And so I think in the leadership size as well, if you're doing this on
the clock, right, so to speak, we're investing resources for our
department into this and resources we need to be using those wisely,
especially with the, I guess the political environment around education
and budget cuts and, you know, sometimes the vilification of education,
you know, and the efficiencies of it. So I think we're being uh
more cognizant of how we spend our time during the work day. So to take a
half a day out of the office to go work on something that is not going to
have an impact to increase our enrollment numbers or to serve students at
issue that are studying involved or potentially going. I think that's kind
of the thought process behind that. Um But I think now that DACA is here,
I, I went to our director and I, I laid out and I said, look like UT
Austin has all these great resources for dreamers. Why? What's the, why
can we not do that? So I think it's more, it was a more of a passive
discussion. So it was in a formal one. So we haven't gotten a direct
answer yet or talked about how to move forward on that. But it's something
that, you know, a lot of times in the summer is when we do our evaluations
as far as like where the department is and strategic vision and plan and
things like that. I think that's gonna be a good time to discuss that the
webinar was only about a month or two ago. So um we haven't had time
really to implement those changes. So when summer rolls around, I'm hoping
that we can at least have a dialogue about it and, and understand um why
it can be important. And I'm going to try to help people in my office see
the value of it because I think that that is sometimes the challenge is
helping um departments see the long term value in this because a lot of
times departments have a lot of strategic visions and there's just not,
there's a limited amount of resources and a lot of goals that they want to
achieve. And so they have to find a way to do a lot with a little. And I
think that that's the kind of the debate amongst a lot of departments, not
just minus, how do we do a lot with a little in the sense of like where do
dreamers fit into that? Well, we have 500 students in another population
that need to be served and we might be serving one or two students. So is
this resource is well spent? So I think that's more the challenge is
convincing um departments that there is value in it. Um Have you had any
undocumented students come in and ask about study abroad at all? I have
not. No, to me, I've only been in the role about seven months. So and I
think it goes back to that visible support piece So I think if the office
is not visibly supportive, I think there are the preconceived notions that
if I'm undocumented, I'm lucky to even be here. Maybe this is the mindset
, right. I'm fortunate to be here. I don't want to leave because, I mean,
but we get back in, that's a huge risk for um any undocumented person I
think. And speaking with a lot of them, a lot of them live in fear already
here. So the thought of doing anything extra and the other piece of that
is um like I was saying about first generation students or low income, low
ses students, low socio-economic status is that a lot of times they, I
think will feel remorseful for going abroad because they're already having
trouble affording that out of state tuition. So the thought of studying
abroad and that perceived notion of an expensive price tag or even though
that may or may not be true, we have low cost options that are no
different than their tuition here. Um But that preconceived notion of
study abroad is a luxury. Um And I, I think one of the things that they
have worked on in the study abroad office though is um in our new
marketing materials, make sure that we are including a lot of um not just
ethnic diversity, but diversity and experience and people and backgrounds
and majors. And I think all of those are starting the conversation about
that because I think the other piece of it is besides the visible support
is seeing someone that looks like you on an advertisement for something
like that. I think that sometimes even those subliminal messages can be
really powerful. Um because even sometimes on my role, I, when we do our
orientations, I look around the room and I see a lot of Caucasian students
and when I think about the makeup of the state of Arizona being over 30%
Hispanic, it is something that it just gets me thinking like, are we
really serving the state if we're, if we're sending, you know, I don't
know what the breakdown is, but it seems predominantly um Caucasian
Americans abroad and that there, what are the barriers that are keeping um
a lot of Hispanics or other populations out of that process? So I think
the visible, the visibility is probably the biggest one, but I think there
are a lot of other little ones that kind of snowball into a larger, you
know, effect of y
um, were you able, I'm gonna go back a little bit. Um But you said that
you weren't able to always go to quip, were you able to attend any
meetings at all? Yeah, I did go once. Yeah, I did go once and I've gone to
some of their fundraising events, but they do have weekly meetings and
they are in downtown Phoenix and so being here in 10 and they're typically
around like 530 or six. So sometimes because of timing and things, but
I'll go, they'll host like after hours events. Um, and they have done
weekend fundraisers. I've gone to some of those and I know a good number
of the members, but I've only attended one formal meeting. Um, how was
that experience? Can you tell me a little bit about it? Um
It was interesting. Um, I, it was a lot different than dream zone because
now I'm out of outside of the higher Ed City. And so again, it took me
kind of back to my Costa Rica experience of being maybe the only Caucasian
American in the room or coming from an area where what was my normal or
what is sometimes even thought of as the normal American experience was
now. Um Not right. So a lot of the people in the room were speaking fluent
Spanish to each other and um the way that they interacted was very
different than what I'm, how I'm used to interacting with my friends and
being outside of um dream zone. It was, it was not anything like dream
zone, it was a completely different experience, but I enjoyed it. I think
it just, I needed to find my space there to feel comfortable. Um
I, I think it um as with, I, I think it's layered on top of the fact that
anytime you're new, it's something you have to establish. Um basically
feeling comfortable in that space. And so I think it was kind of coupled
with that. So I was in a new organization in a room where I didn't really
know a lot of people. And then the other piece of that was the fact that
it was mostly gay men and women and allies um that were also affiliated
with either were undocumented or allies for undocumented people. Um And
specifically in the Hispanic community, although it's open to others. Um
That was what the membership tends to be. Um And at first I actually was
really surprised at the organizations, I think they're part of a national
organization and they have a lot of really great ideas and network and I
actually, they were building a fundraiser there at the meeting and I
thought it was interesting because I didn't know if anyone would attend. I
was like, oh, they're gonna do this dinner. I'm like, I don't know. I mean
, I feel like a lot of organizations do this type of stuff and it's not
successful but they're very driven and I went to the event and I was so
surprised at how successful it was. Um, they do, they do one every year
that's called drag for a dream where a lot of the members will dress up
and drag and they kind of set up a bar there and they'll sell cocktails
and that's one of the ways they make money and they, they have like a
silent auction or they'll serve dinner, you know, they'll have, they'll
sell tacos and things like that. Like, things that their families make
really, really good. Um, and they raised a lot of, I don't know how much
they're raised off it, but I went and it was super packed and crowded and
it was like 10 or 20 a ticket and it actually was a really good show. Um,
they have a lot of talent there. So it was neat to kind of piece together
the disconnect between how I felt after leaving the meeting and what my
preconceived notions and ideas about it were gonna be and then going to
the event and seeing that. Wow, they really know what they're doing or
they really have a lot of drive. Um Was it, um, what was the difference
between the, what do you think the difference was between the event and
the uh meeting that made it feel that made you feel so comfortable being
at the event and not quite so comfortable being at the meeting?
Ok.
That's a really good question,
I think. Well, the meeting, it is a more formal setting. So I was sitting
in a circle and we did icebreakers and so we had to talk about things and
I, I felt like I was being watched a little more being the new person and
I didn't understand some of the jokes and when you're in a setting like
that and everyone can see everyone and everyone is talking to each other
and you don't understand the jokes or in my case, I don't understand the
language. I mean, sometimes they would just start conducting the meeting
entirely in Spanish, which I know a little bit, but I don't know enough to
understand the whole meeting. They would forget to have the translator
speak. So sometimes the translator would speak and sometimes he wouldn't.
But when I went to the actual event, they had um more English actually.
So it was like half English, half Spanish. And I didn't feel like I was
being watched. I feel like I could kind of partake in things at my own
comfort level. So since it was part of it was a drag performance, I was
able to just be a spectator and I didn't feel like I necessarily had to
contribute to something I felt like I could be more of a silent observer.
Whereas at the meeting, I really felt the need to be involved with the
process and kind of a contributing ideas and being an active listener more
so, um whereas the, the event I could be a spectator. So it was probably
the biggest difference.
Um Do you consider yourself an activist? Um
I wish I were. Yeah, I don't, I, I think I have a lot of ideas and I like
to do a lot of talking, but I don't think I always am able to put them
into action as much as I would like. And I have a lot of excuses in my
head. I think as to why I do that. But I think the ultimate goal would be
to be more of an activist. I think there's different, in my mind, there's
different levels of activism. Um So I think, consider myself more of like
a visible ally for a lot of causes, but I don't always end up contributing
as much as I would like to. Um like, I, I would probably consider myself
an activist in comparison to a lot of people that I know, I think it
depends on your reference point for that. Sometimes, you know, like if
people that are legitimate activists may be paid or people that, that
actually do a lot of time volunteering. I don't know that I would consider
myself an activist in comparison to that. When I think about a lot of the
students that I work with here at a su or my family members or even a lot
of my colleagues and different jobs and housing and around the university
, I would consider myself a lot more political than they are. Um And I do
do, I do have some um time of year that I actually do volunteer some. So I
do, like, I, I volunteered with the organization called Mi Familia Vota.
And it's a Spanish organization that um helps to get people basically to
the polls are supposed to be nonpartisan. So it's not affiliated with any
candidates, but like, for instance, during the 2012 election, I was a van
driver for them. So just for that day, um, I drove people to the polls,
anybody that needed to ride, they would just call this hotline, um,
because it was a Hispanic organization. Um, and they were involved with
trying to get Hispanics to come out vote. Um Most of the people that I
drove were Spanish speaking as their native language, but we would just
drive them to the polls. We wouldn't tell them who to vote for anything.
We would just simply give them a ride and um, drop them off there and wait
outside the polling place while they went in. Um because we weren't
allowed to go in with them. But I actually found myself in that experience.
It actually showed me, I think it brought up. Um
It was interesting because through that, even though it was nonpartisan,
we were in poorer areas of Phoenix and I really saw the effects what I
feel like a voter suppression where I was, I was, I went to go vote. So
I'm here in TB and I, I lived on campus at the university. So I went to
vote and I just walked in, I didn't really have to wait in line. I went
right and dropped my ballot off and left. Um, and they greeted me and
there was no issue, but now I'm at a polling place in South Phoenix, uh,
predominantly the Hispanic area of town and the lines are like out the
door and there's no person at the polls directing people as to what to do.
So, people were lining up actually, with their mailing ballot already
filled out, they didn't know they could just go inside and drop it and
there was no one out there telling them. So, actually, um, we were helping
to kind of answer questions and direct people, not in a partisan way, but
just about the process to um you know, if you already have your ballot
fill out, you can take it in and drop it off. You don't have to stand in
line. So that was helping to alleviate some of the line and even people
needed assistance um with their ballot knowing how to um put it back into
the envelope just like very basic things. Um And, you know, if they could
get in line, what like identification they needed, could they use this
card? Could they use that card? So trying to serve kind of in a role that
I feel like the poll workers should have been. But I don't, I don't have a
reason as to why they weren't. Um But I did recognize that it was a very
different experience than what I received at my poll place and I was
frustrated by that, but I also we stayed until the polls closed that day
there just helping um driving people and also staying at that polling
place and just helping from the street actually, because the line was so
long it was outside of the building because there's laws about people
being within certain feet of a polling place. So we just stood out on the
sidewalk and helped direct a lot of the people that were there to vote on
how to do that because there was no one there outlining that process or
assisting people with it. Um What are you interested? It seems like you're
very interested in um Hispanic or Hispanic American issues like
immigration and things like that. What got you interested in that sort of
thing? Um Well, I'm interested in a lot of topics. Immigration is one of
them. But I think one of the, I think the underlying premise, the thing
that really resonated with me is that as with a lot of issues, it, it
didn't feel morally right was the first thing the way that the
conversation around Hispanics specifically in the country and the way that
that population is treated um growing up in a really conservative family
um in what I would probably consider now a Republican family, um three
kids, you know, a mom and a dad, all the same parent, a very pastor for a
dad and a mom that was a nurse. So you're like American pie, traditional
family. I think I realize that one that Hispanic culture is not that much
different than Southern culture. They're very similar. Um A lot of
Hispanics actually tend to be conservatives, which is kind of the ironic
thing I think about the Republican stance in the country surrounding
immigration. And I think that I learned that Hispanic values are actually
very American values in the sense of what people think of when they think
of what it means to be American of like working really hard setting a
dream. I mean, a lot of Hispanics come here because they want a better
life or they want to contribute. But yet that's lost. And the message is,
oh, they're moochers or they want food stamps or oh, they're going to
college for free, which is just uh like it's preposterous, the things that
are being said. And um so I think the injustice bothered me and the
message and the misinformation that's out there around that as with any
topic really would bother me. And it, it, it, it just really uh it's not
right. You know what's happening? I think that there's like the, the moral
side to it, but there's many ways to look at immigration and that's
something that we talk about in dream zone is there's many appeals to the
calls and some of them are even economic, right? So there's the economic
piece of that. You have people here working a lot of them in lower wage
jobs and they're contributing and they want to be here. So why is there
not a path to citizenship for them or those types of discussions. So I
think there are many facets that attract me to that causes. Um But I think
one of the mo the most um important one is probably the moral peace. I
just feel like they, there's a lot that's lost in translation with the
movement that I wanna try to serve as a uh like a very visible ally to
have those conversations with people that they might not. I think when I
told Dave and Jesus, I wanted to be involved with dream zone, I think they
were more excited than they were with some other facilitators because they
really want more allies. They want people. The reality is, is that people
respond differently to different types of people. And they, they know that
when a Hispanic person is trying to talk to a Caucasian person about the
calls, they respond differently than if it's another Caucasian person or
even Southerners. If I'm talking like Southerner to Southerner. Um there
is a difference in that and the amount of people that were able to reach
in the way they perceive that message and to get that dialogue started.
And so I think for me, I really like to talk about, it really drives me to
be able to have a conversation with people about what their thoughts are
about immigration and helping them piece those pieces of the puzzle
together because I know that the way that people feel is the way that um
how do I say this? There's a disconnect between what people think of
immigration and what is reality. And I know that if I can talk to people
about the facts of immigration and what is really happening, that they
will change their mind about it. I know that um even, you know, I have an
84 year old grandfather and I was talking to him and he was, he made his
comment like I was home over the summer and he said, well, you know,
there's all these Mexicans going to school for free and there's so many
things wrong with that statement, right? But the great thing was is I was
able to have a really good dialogue with him about it. And by the end of
that conversation, he didn't admit that he was wrong or anything, which
was fine, but he actually said, you know, I didn't know that and he just
kind of left it at that. And I was like, you know, maybe he'll go back and
think about that and that will resonate with him on down the road or that
will, you know, at least stop him from making those type of comments at
the very least because I think there is this misconception that Hispanics
are here and as a population, I don't like to generalize people, but
that's the notion that they're here and they're getting a free ride. So
then I kind of use that as a segue of, well, like how can, how, first of
all, how are they getting a free ride because they can't receive any
benefits? And the laws are being designed to make people so miserable that
they actually will leave. You know, and II I try to talk to them about
what that means, you know, why, why would you pass laws that specifically
target a population or, you know, this is what it is like, you know, from
a Hispanic person's eyes, people that I've talked to and barriers that
they're facing. Um So I just, I don't remember what the original question
was, but I'm way off topic as usual. OK. Um How, so you talk, you talk a
lot about face to face conversations that you have uh with family members.
Is there any other way that you spread the facts about immigration and
undocumented youth um in other ways? Yeah. Um So informal conversations
also through social media. So I try, I think that's another important
piece when I talk about visibility, it's making certain topics trend on
Twitter. Um You know, for instance, like on Martin Luther King Day, I try
to connect people's minds. I think a lot of people are celebrating Martin
Luther King, but there are a lot of quotes and things that you can look to
from um his time here when he was prominent in giving speeches that point
to immigrant rights as well. Um And so I use that as a platform on those
days, like bring up those discussions about immigration and why that's
important. Um So sharing articles staying up to date on things and formal
conversations. I do, I do want to be more involved um with doing more
things than conversations, but right now I am more on the informal front
with that. Um Well, let me see.
Um I think that's all the questions that I have. Is there anything else
that you'd wanna say you wanna talk about?
I know there'll be something after I leave the room like I wish I had said
, um I just, I really, um
and I really would like, I want to be involved with it because I think
that there's a lot of room to change people's minds on this issue. I think
that um as with, with the, the two probably hottest topics in the country
right now of LGBT rights and actually legalize marijuana. Um I feel like
there are two really hot political topics right now that people are
talking about and I think the third would probably be immigration. And I
think that as um people begin that dialogue about it and I think it really
starts, you know, you hear a lot of politicians talk about grassroots
campaigns. So, right, you can spend millions of dollars on TV ads and that
may not translate into votes, but then you'd look at candidates that and
they always will reference their grassroot campaigns, whether it's like um
President Obama and his really awesome grassroots effort all the way down
to local elections. Um Grassroots is really the thing right now. And I
think that, and that's kind of what that, that definitely is what dream
zone is, is a grassroots effort of someone of two people that saw a
population that wasn't being served. And they actually started from a
conversation kind of like this interview where um they were like, wow,
like this isn't right. And then what is a su doing about this? And then
they come to find out there just really wasn't much that the university or
that they could do because they're state institution and all these laws
and the political environment. So these two people, Jesus and a really
took it upon themselves and were really leaders and got out there and did
it. And I'll even admit I was kind of skeptical when they started it
because I, I, I'm typically an optimist, but it's just like, wow, this is
gonna be a lot of work and I don't know if the support is really gonna be
there. People are going to perceive this to be really political, but they
did really an amazing job of building dream zone and putting a real solid
framework in place that really took the political pieces out of it. You
know, for the most part, people that have gone to the session, I think
would agree that it is um it tends, it tries to be very unbiased and
really create a healthy and safe discussion around immigration, which is
really how you change people and how you create change in the institution
as well. And so many people after the sessions, I think the the spirit of
Dream zone and hearing from the Dreamers on the panel, the personal
stories, the videos learning about the political environment, the laws has
really changed staff's faculty and students attitudes towards dreamers.
And so you had people that came in that maybe were very nonchalant about
participating or they just came in because they just were curious and left
really changed by it. So that's a huge metric because effective train
train will change their behavior. And so when you have people that are
going through just literally a four hour, that's all it is a four hour
certification and they're leaving and it's having this astounding impact
on their life and then they're then going out and trying to implement
these changes at a su and nationally and all over the place. Really K
through 12 and, and Maricopa Community College and all these different
places. It's really amazing to think what two people have accomplished by
just this very small grassroots effort. So I've been like, I really
privileged to have been able to be a part of it. I'm going to continue to
serve as a facilitator. Hopefully, during my time here but I'm excited to
see some of the things that Dream Zone will do moving forward because
that's the other piece to Dream Zone is that immigration right now is
changing every day. I mean, one day I was presenting in the violence
against Women Act actually was expiring that day and Congress had not
renewed it because the Democrats had tried to add in a provision to
predict documented people so that if they were facing abuse, they could
call the police without fear of being deported. And the bill actually
expired that day in the session and it was at our powerpoint site. So we
actually had to talk about that of like, well, the environment is
constantly changes. So you have to stay up to date on it. But right now
this law has expired, they went a month later, they renewed it and they
included the protections, they end up strike a compromise, but, you know,
DACA could change, things are going to change and DACA is a band aid, it's
not a permanent thing. So, um you know, hopefully immigration reform will
happen. And at that point, that's gonna completely change what dream zone
means, right? Depending on how comprehensive um that legislation is when
it happens because it's only a matter of time when that happens. Um It's
gonna completely change what dream zone is and maybe it will. That's the
great thing about it is because it's a grassroots effort. Um and everybody
that's all the facilitators kind of have a seat at the table and we all
kind of talk about the direction and what the pros and cons are. It's
going to change and I can see it changing into more of what we had talked
about earlier where it's more of a student support service, more than a
faculty and staff support service. Of course, it will always be inclusive
and serve everyone, but the primary goals will change over time as the
legislation changes. OK. Um Thank you very much for agreeing to do this
interview. Um So I just need your formal consent to put this on the public
online digital archive. Yeah, that's fine. OK, great. Um This is Holly
Solis interviewing Seth mcmanus for undocumented Voices on April 7th 2015.