WEBVTT 00:00:01.500 --> 00:00:05.846 My name is Cynthia. It's the third of April and I'm here with Jonathan at 00:00:05.879 --> 00:00:10.017 the Arizona Education offices in Phoenix. Jonathan, could you please state 00:00:10.050 --> 00:00:14.316 your name and give me formal consent for this oral history to be recorded 00:00:14.349 --> 00:00:18.186 and used for the undocumented voices project. My name is Jonathan and I 00:00:18.219 --> 00:00:22.477 give consent. All right. Thank you very much. Welcome, Jonathan. Great to 00:00:22.510 --> 00:00:26.497 have you with me to start off. I would like to ask you a bit more about 00:00:26.530 --> 00:00:31.546 your personal background. So, for example, where were you born? So I was 00:00:31.579 --> 00:00:38.417 born in the US and I was born in a, in a small town in Maryland on the 00:00:38.450 --> 00:00:43.756 border with Virginia uh uh in a really small farming town. How was your 00:00:43.789 --> 00:00:48.756 experience growing up there? Um It's an interesting place and it's in the 00:00:48.789 --> 00:00:53.885 middle of a swamp. Um It's uh traditionally, 00:00:53.918 --> 00:00:58.356 it's very segregated, it's half black and half white. Um It's 00:00:58.389 --> 00:01:01.546 traditionally plantation country. It's where Harriet Tubman is from and 00:01:01.579 --> 00:01:05.126 it's where Frederick Douglass is from. So, a lot of the civil rights 00:01:05.159 --> 00:01:08.555 history of the US happened really close to there and there's still a lot 00:01:08.588 --> 00:01:12.296 of racism and they're still not very used to people who are not either 00:01:12.329 --> 00:01:19.467 white or black. Um So yeah, when I was a kid, people were still called 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:24.867 Chinese usually if they were anything other than white or black. So um 00:01:24.900 --> 00:01:30.745 could you tell me a bit more about your family? Yeah. Um my family is from 00:01:30.778 --> 00:01:35.936 different places and, and mixed. Um My older brother and sister were born 00:01:35.969 --> 00:01:43.969 in Mexico City. Um and um my mother and their father is different. Um My 00:01:44.588 --> 00:01:50.147 mother's side of the family is Italian and Mexican. And uh my dad's side 00:01:50.180 --> 00:01:53.665 of the family, my, my father was, is from Virginia. So he grew up in the 00:01:53.698 --> 00:01:58.546 segregated south in the US. Um And in Japan, which is an interesting 00:01:58.579 --> 00:02:03.555 outlier. So my father grew up speaking Japanese and then came back. Um And 00:02:03.588 --> 00:02:10.835 then on my mother's side, she moved from Mexico to where I grew up. Um 00:02:10.868 --> 00:02:14.717 Are yourself undocumented? I'm not undocumented. I am documented. All 00:02:14.750 --> 00:02:20.767 right. Um So could you tell me a bit more about your experience of being a 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:27.566 high school student? Uh huh. Um My, so I went to elementary school and 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:30.987 middle school in the US. And then when I was a young high school, I went 00:02:31.020 --> 00:02:39.020 back to Mexico. Um So I did as a middle schooler, I got involved in doing 00:02:39.490 --> 00:02:45.656 some activism that was around uh queer use of color in my school. And also 00:02:45.689 --> 00:02:51.396 realizing a lot of the racial disparity that was happening in my town and 00:02:51.429 --> 00:02:57.995 trying to figure out what to do about it. But then, um by the time I was 00:02:58.028 --> 00:03:02.267 14, I spent a little time back in Mexico City. And then at 16, I moved 00:03:02.300 --> 00:03:07.896 back and finished my education in Mexico City. So I lived in the south of 00:03:07.929 --> 00:03:12.566 Mexico City and went to a school, a school there. Right. How was that 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:20.267 experience for you? Um It was good. It was disconcert, I'd always identify. 00:03:20.300 --> 00:03:24.047 I'd always thought that I had a homeland to go back to and then I went to 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:27.696 Mexico and found that I, that wasn't a homeland either. So it was a 00:03:27.729 --> 00:03:31.906 disconcerting experience for me as a, as a young person, right? I didn't, 00:03:31.939 --> 00:03:34.547 um 00:03:34.580 --> 00:03:39.005 I didn't fit in either in either place necessarily. And so I felt there 00:03:39.038 --> 00:03:43.775 was, uh I had a process of realizing who I was, you know, and how to claim 00:03:43.808 --> 00:03:49.536 myself. Um But it was beautiful. I love Mexico City. Um It was a, it was a 00:03:49.569 --> 00:03:53.606 good place to be, it was good to be back with my family there. It was good. 00:03:53.639 --> 00:03:57.376 I learned how to be a lot of things that I think that I had really 00:03:57.409 --> 00:04:00.916 blocked in this country. I, I think I learned how to express myself in a 00:04:00.949 --> 00:04:07.316 lot of ways. Could you elaborate a little more of that? Um Like one thing 00:04:07.349 --> 00:04:12.416 is that I didn't, I didn't know how I realized that I didn't know how to 00:04:12.449 --> 00:04:17.776 make people laugh until I went, until I was living in Mexico until I was 00:04:17.809 --> 00:04:22.024 living my life in Spanish. Um, and 00:04:22.057 --> 00:04:26.036 I was all of a sudden able to be funny and I was able to let myself loose 00:04:26.069 --> 00:04:31.055 and I felt easier, which was an interesting thing for me. There was, I 00:04:31.088 --> 00:04:36.116 think a lot of childhood in a little town with racial tension and lots of 00:04:36.149 --> 00:04:39.745 Baptists can be very 00:04:39.778 --> 00:04:44.317 confined and uptight. Um So, yeah, learning how, learning the different 00:04:44.350 --> 00:04:50.156 ways of navigating communication and talking to people. Um 00:04:50.189 --> 00:04:58.189 Did you, did you pursue higher education? I went to, I started at the, the 00:04:58.309 --> 00:05:03.305 FAA de Socio lo the Sociology Faculty in the U A, the National Autonomous 00:05:03.338 --> 00:05:08.817 University of Mexico and also uh studying Sociology at the E A which is 00:05:08.850 --> 00:05:12.526 the National School of Anthropology and History. Um And I didn't finish 00:05:12.559 --> 00:05:20.559 but I, I did courses of both of those. 00:05:20.980 --> 00:05:26.765 Um At what point in your life did you 00:05:26.798 --> 00:05:33.986 become aware of the issues around being undocumented? 00:05:34.019 --> 00:05:38.245 It's hard to say the first point. I think the first time I really was 00:05:38.278 --> 00:05:45.245 clear to me what was happening. I remember when I was probably 00:05:45.278 --> 00:05:50.055 13 or 14 00:05:50.088 --> 00:05:54.705 standing outside of uh of one of the detention centers where they help 00:05:54.738 --> 00:05:57.887 people when they picked them up. It was a rural area. So there was lots of 00:05:57.920 --> 00:06:03.705 migrant farm workers and then construction workers. Um And at a certain 00:06:03.738 --> 00:06:08.366 point, we realized that lots of our, the families in our community were 00:06:08.399 --> 00:06:13.226 being, having individuals picked up uh and deported or detained. And so I 00:06:13.259 --> 00:06:16.856 guess the first clear memory I have of that is standing outside of a 00:06:16.889 --> 00:06:21.507 center because we were trying to find one of my friend's fathers. Um It 00:06:21.540 --> 00:06:26.245 was this big, it was a big gray building. Um Its enormous, it was like a 00:06:26.278 --> 00:06:30.127 palace except that it was just all ST all cinder block and there was what 00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:34.116 pipe sticking out of the wall and it had a flared end and that was all the 00:06:34.149 --> 00:06:38.526 communication. There was no human, like there was no window, there was no 00:06:38.559 --> 00:06:43.075 nothing you couldn't go in the door. Um So I remember speaking into this 00:06:43.108 --> 00:06:48.377 pipe and then hearing this voice out of it and just trying to figure out 00:06:48.410 --> 00:06:52.817 where, where he was and what was happening to him and how we could get him 00:06:52.850 --> 00:06:58.515 out. Um And we didn't know we didn't have any of the, any strategies to do 00:06:58.548 --> 00:07:03.276 this. At that point. We, we were just figuring it out step by step. How 00:07:03.309 --> 00:07:10.325 old were you at that time? I was, I think I was about 13, um 13 or 14. I 00:07:10.358 --> 00:07:14.705 was uh like a older middle school student or a young high school student. 00:07:14.738 --> 00:07:22.738 Um Yeah. How did that evolve uh for you to, to um to become an activist. 00:07:23.028 --> 00:07:31.028 How did you decide that you wanted to um you know, support those people. 00:07:31.410 --> 00:07:34.805 Um 00:07:34.838 --> 00:07:42.145 So at that time, that wasn't in my head, I identify activism for me or 00:07:42.178 --> 00:07:46.596 like political stuff was around, 00:07:46.629 --> 00:07:52.296 mostly around LGBT issues. Um Because I think that's what I was hearing. A 00:07:52.329 --> 00:07:57.507 lot of negativity about people were very uh openly homophobic where I grew 00:07:57.540 --> 00:08:03.575 up. Um And issues of documentation 00:08:03.608 --> 00:08:06.536 um 00:08:06.569 --> 00:08:10.366 were the things that we dealt with around the dinner table. They were the 00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:14.567 things that we stayed up late and friends came over and we figure out out 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:19.567 how we were going to raise the money to get a bond, um who was gonna be 00:08:19.600 --> 00:08:23.245 able to turn it in, who could fill out the papers and show up at the court. 00:08:23.278 --> 00:08:25.846 Um 00:08:25.879 --> 00:08:29.286 So 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:33.336 I think, um 00:08:33.369 --> 00:08:37.217 gosh, I mean, that was, that's just, it's, it's like part of my family is 00:08:37.250 --> 00:08:41.635 what it see. And then my, my, yeah. And then my parents come out though. 00:08:41.668 --> 00:08:46.366 The history of my folks is a little, I think informs it also. My father 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:51.787 was involved in um sort of the civil rights movement in Virginia at his 00:08:51.820 --> 00:08:55.467 time. And my mother comes out of a movement called the, it was a movement 00:08:55.500 --> 00:08:59.946 of colonos, a movement of um like uh community members outside of Mexico 00:08:59.979 --> 00:09:03.667 City where, where people from the co countryside and also people, poor, 00:09:03.700 --> 00:09:07.996 people from the city took over land together um and built collective 00:09:08.029 --> 00:09:12.246 communities. And so both of them came out really strong backgrounds where 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:17.047 they identified economic and racial injustice and what it looked like. And 00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:21.496 then the way that people that we resolved, it was that every Sunday in my 00:09:21.529 --> 00:09:24.336 mother's kitchen is where the ladies from, her community came and left 00:09:24.369 --> 00:09:29.537 their, the money so that they could buy new land or buy um plum buy 00:09:29.570 --> 00:09:33.856 plumbing, for example, for the the community kitchen. So solutions were 00:09:33.889 --> 00:09:37.677 always, were always community. There was always like we come together and 00:09:37.710 --> 00:09:43.157 we build stuff, we make things um so that we can live and, and we 00:09:43.190 --> 00:09:47.765 understand that we are an independent people. Um 00:09:47.798 --> 00:09:50.025 So 00:09:50.058 --> 00:09:56.125 it's hard to say exactly like where the click was. But um 00:09:56.158 --> 00:10:00.885 but yeah, I mean, I think that, that this, that background, that history, 00:10:00.918 --> 00:10:04.557 the intense racial climate, the fact that my family was immersed in the 00:10:04.590 --> 00:10:09.025 immigrant community and dealing every day with issues of detention and 00:10:09.058 --> 00:10:14.385 documentation, all of these things. Um 00:10:14.418 --> 00:10:18.576 That wasn't a, it wasn't a choice. It's just this is what we do, we, we 00:10:18.609 --> 00:10:23.297 build things so that our people can survive. Definitely. Um You, you 00:10:23.330 --> 00:10:28.576 already touched upon it uh that the climate back then was extremely 00:10:28.609 --> 00:10:34.116 homophobic. So how was that growing up? 00:10:34.149 --> 00:10:39.375 Um in that, in that time, that place sometimes. Yeah, it was interesting. 00:10:39.408 --> 00:10:46.765 Sometimes I'm 26 and sometimes even with my people who are the same age 00:10:46.798 --> 00:10:51.385 who have grown up in cities in the US or in Mexico, I feel like I am like 00:10:51.418 --> 00:10:57.106 a decade older or more because I grew up in a really small town. Um 00:10:57.139 --> 00:11:01.086 uh Like I remember going to school and there would be prayer circles 00:11:01.119 --> 00:11:06.236 around flagpole or prayer circles outside of the entrance and people would 00:11:06.269 --> 00:11:10.057 throw lots of things in the hallways. And um there was lots of like 00:11:10.090 --> 00:11:16.696 physical attacks and um lots of times that there's only probably less than 00:11:16.729 --> 00:11:22.336 10 students in a county school of about 1000 500 who are openly identified 00:11:22.369 --> 00:11:28.826 as uh as, as gay or lesbian or bisexual at that time. Um So, yeah, there 00:11:28.859 --> 00:11:32.186 was a lot of internalized hatred I think is the longest, the longest 00:11:32.219 --> 00:11:38.096 lasting impact of that taken me a long time to learn how to 00:11:38.129 --> 00:11:42.606 be um how to love myself and how to be really comfortable with myself and 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:48.667 how not to see myself through the eyes of um the people that, that I grew 00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:54.996 up around. When was the 1st, 1st time that you actively uh became an 00:11:55.029 --> 00:12:00.417 activist or were involved in an organization? And did your identity as 00:12:00.450 --> 00:12:06.956 LGBT and your experience with undocumented immediately cross or intersect 00:12:06.989 --> 00:12:11.246 or did that come later? 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:19.279 It came later. My first um 00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:25.265 I remember going to meetings of the NN A AC P, the National Association 00:12:25.298 --> 00:12:32.047 for the Advancement of Colored People from before I could talk. Um So my 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:38.015 parents were engaged in my, my folk, neither of my parents are black, but 00:12:38.048 --> 00:12:45.385 there was a strong, powerful um um structure of, of black community. Um 00:12:45.418 --> 00:12:49.635 And that's where we, those were my parents friends and those were the 00:12:49.668 --> 00:12:52.677 people, that's how, that's how we clicked in because it didn't, there was 00:12:52.710 --> 00:12:55.936 nowhere else for us to find a home in the south. And these were people who 00:12:55.969 --> 00:13:02.566 were community oriented, they understood what colonialism was and racism 00:13:02.599 --> 00:13:06.217 was and, and we could be together and talk together. And so that's the 00:13:06.250 --> 00:13:11.417 kind of environment that I was raised in. So I was really young. Um The 00:13:11.450 --> 00:13:16.946 first time I started one, I was about 12 and we started a um at that time 00:13:16.979 --> 00:13:21.446 , we called it a Gay Straight Alliance, which now is really a really huge. 00:13:21.479 --> 00:13:24.787 And at that time, it took us almost a year to start it because the school 00:13:24.820 --> 00:13:28.307 wouldn't let it, wouldn't, the school banned it. And so we had to appeal 00:13:28.340 --> 00:13:33.177 and appeal and appeal and appeal. Um And then eventually, uh eventually we 00:13:33.210 --> 00:13:36.706 were able to start it. Um That was the first time I started an 00:13:36.739 --> 00:13:38.866 organization. 00:13:38.899 --> 00:13:44.885 How was that experience? Like, what, what did you do? Um 00:13:44.918 --> 00:13:47.025 Well, 00:13:47.058 --> 00:13:52.375 we gathered a bunch of folks together. Um We, we had, we had different 00:13:52.408 --> 00:13:55.106 kinds of meetings. We had some meetings where we talked about our 00:13:55.139 --> 00:14:00.005 experiences, we had meetings where we did like uh cir kind of healing 00:14:00.038 --> 00:14:07.066 circles. We had meetings where we talked about um politics. Um 00:14:07.099 --> 00:14:11.996 There was, we, we had also, we worked on like there was some other things 00:14:12.029 --> 00:14:14.746 happening at that time, there was like a couple of different wars that the 00:14:14.779 --> 00:14:18.885 US was engaging in and there was like, racism, really strong racism in our 00:14:18.918 --> 00:14:24.417 community and most of us were youth of color or of different backgrounds. 00:14:24.450 --> 00:14:29.775 Um And so we also engaged in things like that. Like we did, like, we've 00:14:29.808 --> 00:14:34.287 made like thousands of paper cranes and then filled our school with them 00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:39.515 sort of that kind of thing for like, uh like art protests. We did um We 00:14:39.548 --> 00:14:46.986 spent one night uh painting like probably miles of rainbow. Um 00:14:47.019 --> 00:14:51.226 They used to sell these big rolls of newsprint of rainbow newsprint. Um 00:14:51.259 --> 00:14:55.606 And then we, like, taped it to all of the walls of the school um for the 00:14:55.639 --> 00:15:00.025 next day. So a lot of stuff to just be like, at that time, the point was 00:15:00.058 --> 00:15:04.736 to say we're here, like, because it wasn't, no one had said that before. 00:15:04.769 --> 00:15:09.145 Um And so we just did a lot, I think a lot of that of saying we're here. 00:15:09.178 --> 00:15:14.717 How did you evolve from that point to today to your activism today? What 00:15:14.750 --> 00:15:20.025 happened in that time? Yeah. Um So that happened when I was like a middle 00:15:20.058 --> 00:15:26.476 schooler and then I was in Mexico City. Um And that plugged me back into, 00:15:26.509 --> 00:15:34.057 I think a lot of my mother's history as um working in peasant and working 00:15:34.090 --> 00:15:37.726 class communities and like, organizing around economic injustice and like 00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:42.696 , or, well, just organizing around people's lives. Um 00:15:42.729 --> 00:15:48.037 And then when I finished, well, when I stopped going to college in Mexico 00:15:48.070 --> 00:15:54.907 , I came back to the US and lived all over the place. Um I worked on farms 00:15:54.940 --> 00:16:00.456 um and in, and in forests. I put in, in construction. Um and I worked in 00:16:00.489 --> 00:16:04.976 California and Texas and Colorado and Alaska and Tennessee and North 00:16:05.009 --> 00:16:11.106 Carolina and Virginia and Maryland and Arizona and South Dakota. And so 00:16:11.139 --> 00:16:15.606 I've been like all over and then at some point, went back to Mexico. I 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:21.025 worked in Guerrero in Southern Guerrero for a while. Um And in Mexico City. 00:16:21.058 --> 00:16:23.186 Um 00:16:23.219 --> 00:16:28.696 And so at this time, I did, I did manual labor. Um and then I, and then 00:16:28.729 --> 00:16:31.946 every so often we do short times like I worked as an interpreter at a 00:16:31.979 --> 00:16:37.657 medical clinic for tomato pickers um in a place near where I grew up. Um I 00:16:37.690 --> 00:16:41.206 went to Guerrero for a while and I worked with an organization that does 00:16:41.239 --> 00:16:43.417 um 00:16:43.450 --> 00:16:48.246 they work with um the national Organizations of Indigenous Peoples in 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.765 Guerrero. So they do a lot of like media outreach or legal representation. 00:16:52.798 --> 00:16:57.177 Um And also connecting people with like the UN and connecting people with 00:16:57.210 --> 00:17:02.356 the Internat, the American Court on Human Rights, um the Inter American 00:17:02.389 --> 00:17:06.867 Court on Human Rights, the Yak Cer Yeah. Um 00:17:06.900 --> 00:17:11.436 So an inner like back and forth between being a laborer and a field worker 00:17:11.469 --> 00:17:17.637 and doing um being part of organizations um and feeling alienated in both 00:17:17.670 --> 00:17:22.055 worlds. Um I love being, I'm from the country and I love being in the 00:17:22.088 --> 00:17:25.496 country and in the wilderness or in, in farm country. But also recognizing 00:17:25.529 --> 00:17:32.876 , um, that I was either I was in environments where I couldn't be queer, I 00:17:32.909 --> 00:17:40.795 couldn't, I, I couldn't be um be Mexican or I couldn't be both of these 00:17:40.828 --> 00:17:45.486 things or I could be, but I couldn't talk about them. Um And really 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:50.147 understanding how alienated I was and that this in a sense was like this 00:17:50.180 --> 00:17:54.585 continuation of when I was a younger child in a really conservative area. 00:17:54.618 --> 00:17:58.107 Um It's almost like some part of me was seeking that out and trying to 00:17:58.140 --> 00:18:01.976 continue to prove myself and be successful in that environment, which I 00:18:02.009 --> 00:18:07.776 was, I was pretty good in construction. Um But at some point realized that 00:18:07.809 --> 00:18:11.325 it didn't matter like that was not the point being successful in that bad 00:18:11.358 --> 00:18:15.285 environment was not gonna make me a happy person. Um And then on the other 00:18:15.318 --> 00:18:18.706 end, being involved in these organizations, 00:18:18.739 --> 00:18:24.217 which were lots of um like Nongovernmental, like NGO S and, and nonprofits 00:18:24.250 --> 00:18:28.776 and feeling in those situations. Like there was a lot of policy work, 00:18:28.809 --> 00:18:34.926 there was a lot of um reports to members and action alerts and media work 00:18:34.959 --> 00:18:39.506 and interviews and updates and websites and tweeter twit uh whatever those 00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:46.717 are called tweets and um and feeling like nothing was actually happening. 00:18:46.750 --> 00:18:50.456 Like it was just this buzz of like little electronic signals somewhere 00:18:50.489 --> 00:18:55.416 between satellites. Um, and so 00:18:55.449 --> 00:18:59.467 when I came, I moved to Phoenix because my, I was working in Arizona in 00:18:59.500 --> 00:19:03.276 the forest in the north and my sister moved here and so I moved here with 00:19:03.309 --> 00:19:06.575 her because it had been a long time. Well, it hadn't been that long but it 00:19:06.608 --> 00:19:08.887 had been too long. It had been like a couple of years since I lived with 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:11.555 her for a while. So I came here to be with her and her kids and her 00:19:11.588 --> 00:19:17.617 husband. Um And um 00:19:17.650 --> 00:19:22.236 found, yeah, I found like community that was working in really concrete 00:19:22.269 --> 00:19:28.496 ways and it seemed like a really good place to be, to, to, to go to work, 00:19:28.529 --> 00:19:32.746 to start working on these things in a, in a way that was 00:19:32.779 --> 00:19:36.637 totally embracing of, of the community and of the things that I was and 00:19:36.670 --> 00:19:42.627 also was doing very solid things was, was building stuff and which 00:19:42.660 --> 00:19:46.696 organizations were you involved or are you still involved? So, my first 00:19:46.729 --> 00:19:54.246 point was Puente Human Rights Movement. Um Back when 1070 was passed, my 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:58.726 sister and I came from Virginia because she worked for a union in Virginia. 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:02.367 And we came to support the organizing of the mobilization. And so back 00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:07.016 then, Puente was still part of an organization here called Dona Tierra um 00:20:07.049 --> 00:20:11.397 which is a little community organization. Um And so we slept on someone's 00:20:11.430 --> 00:20:14.676 floor and we were here for several weeks, canvassing talking to, talking 00:20:14.709 --> 00:20:20.075 to people knocking on doors, making posters. Um And then fast forward a 00:20:20.108 --> 00:20:23.825 couple of years when we came back, we both started going to Puente again 00:20:23.858 --> 00:20:28.117 and then through Puente um 00:20:28.150 --> 00:20:34.446 where I was engaged with them for a while. Um And then met individuals 00:20:34.479 --> 00:20:39.545 from quip from the queer undocumented immigrant project um and was invited 00:20:39.578 --> 00:20:44.476 to be part of that space. And so I went there um and really found myself a 00:20:44.509 --> 00:20:48.867 lot more identified and also it's a much more community structure. Um 00:20:48.900 --> 00:20:54.347 Puente is a large community with a with it's run by staff and quip is, is 00:20:54.380 --> 00:20:59.117 actually community run. Um And so there's a big difference in making 00:20:59.150 --> 00:21:04.147 decisions with everybody, right? And making mistakes and doing things in a 00:21:04.180 --> 00:21:08.795 not always very smooth way, you know, like learning how media works as you 00:21:08.828 --> 00:21:15.887 go along. So those are my two points of getting involved and then from, 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.377 and then I migrated away from Puente for the sake of time and of these 00:21:19.410 --> 00:21:25.137 other things were working really heavily on queer and trans migrant work. 00:21:25.170 --> 00:21:28.416 And then since then, since migrating away from them have really seen the 00:21:28.449 --> 00:21:32.467 full breadth of like what there is out there from the center for 00:21:32.500 --> 00:21:38.877 neighborhood leadership to Lucia to really working with ad A um even bus 00:21:38.910 --> 00:21:45.196 understanding that how big this community is. So, could you elaborate a 00:21:45.229 --> 00:21:52.035 bit more about what the point of movement is about? Um So puente puente 00:21:52.068 --> 00:22:00.068 movement um is born around the protests against 1070. Um And the 00:22:00.969 --> 00:22:06.026 commitment of people working in those protests to really build a long, a 00:22:06.059 --> 00:22:12.575 long term durable um organization to fight for migrant community. They 00:22:12.608 --> 00:22:16.887 were initially part of Dona Tierra. Um They were like a maybe a chapter or 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:19.736 a subpart of Dona Tierra. And then at some point, it made sense for them 00:22:19.769 --> 00:22:24.147 to be their own. Um So they sort of packed up and moved out and set up 00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:29.795 their own. Um And they do a lot of their work is on a kind of community 00:22:29.828 --> 00:22:33.426 legal clinic basis. So people come in with different kinds of cases, 00:22:33.459 --> 00:22:38.156 typically deportation cases and then they push um to get people out of 00:22:38.189 --> 00:22:42.736 detention and they do it through um a lot of media pressure and a lot of 00:22:42.769 --> 00:22:46.236 public pressure on ice and then political pressure sometimes, but they 00:22:46.269 --> 00:22:53.936 mostly do media in public. Um So, like the, the basis of their work are 00:22:53.969 --> 00:23:01.377 deportation campaigns. Um And um it's run by, there's a staff of um like 00:23:01.410 --> 00:23:06.835 five people um who run different parts of that. Um And it's also part of 00:23:06.868 --> 00:23:13.206 some larger national networks like the um the uh and alon, the National 00:23:13.239 --> 00:23:19.696 Day Laborer Organizing Network. Um And um 00:23:19.729 --> 00:23:22.736 and then there's some sort of peripheral projects. They have a garden, 00:23:22.769 --> 00:23:26.887 they have little thing. They, there's an art project, there's a youth 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:32.226 project, but the central piece of this is fighting deportations. And then 00:23:32.259 --> 00:23:37.776 uh Arizona, the Arizona career undocumented uh immigrant project. What is 00:23:37.809 --> 00:23:42.256 that about? What are the main goals of that organization? So it's been 00:23:42.289 --> 00:23:48.085 dedicated to telling, telling the story of queer and trans migration. So, 00:23:48.118 --> 00:23:51.926 and in a, in a lot of context, what this means is talking in immigrant 00:23:51.959 --> 00:23:55.196 community, talking about what it is to be queer and trans. And then on the 00:23:55.229 --> 00:23:58.246 other side, talking in queer and trans community or LGBT community about 00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:05.467 what it is to be migrant. Um So a lot of the work has been storytelling. 00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:09.545 It's been community forums, it's been media, it's been outreach, it's 00:24:09.578 --> 00:24:16.137 been forums like informational forums. Um and they've been working since 00:24:16.170 --> 00:24:21.406 like 2011. And so they really laid this groundwork of people understanding 00:24:21.439 --> 00:24:27.065 that there is a community there um which is important and it's been a lot 00:24:27.098 --> 00:24:32.097 of work I think that people have done. Um Could you give me an example of 00:24:32.130 --> 00:24:40.130 some of the activities or? Um yeah, um campaigns. So last week, um yeah, 00:24:41.989 --> 00:24:46.877 it was last week, there was a double coming out for him in um Chandler, 00:24:46.910 --> 00:24:50.026 Chandler, Gilbert Community College or Gilbert Chandler Community College. 00:24:50.059 --> 00:24:53.516 Um And the double coming out for him essentially is where members of the 00:24:53.549 --> 00:24:58.456 group um talk and tell their story of double coming out. Um which is a 00:24:58.489 --> 00:25:01.555 story of coming out of the closet as LGBT and also coming out of the 00:25:01.588 --> 00:25:09.325 shadows as undocumented. Um And in this case, it was to um an audience 00:25:09.358 --> 00:25:13.456 that didn't know much about either. Um It often it's an audience that's 00:25:13.489 --> 00:25:17.585 either a migrant audience or it's an LGBT audience. Um But the double 00:25:17.618 --> 00:25:21.805 coming out forums are kind of the, the bread and butter, I guess of, of 00:25:21.838 --> 00:25:28.266 like a lot of quips work also um organizing events and two of those, I 00:25:28.299 --> 00:25:31.246 think that are pretty distinctive are one called somoa media. We are a 00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:36.676 family and one called drag for a dream. Um They're both fundraising, but 00:25:36.709 --> 00:25:41.656 they're also both uh big events where people are brought together in a way 00:25:41.689 --> 00:25:46.897 that they can talk about or experience um The, this dual identity. So, 00:25:46.930 --> 00:25:51.117 SOMOS, familia is about sitting families down, sitting migrant families 00:25:51.150 --> 00:25:56.406 down with LGBT Q community um and sharing a dinner and having, and, and 00:25:56.439 --> 00:25:59.867 talking, having discussion and finding points in common, whether it's 00:25:59.900 --> 00:26:04.666 popular music or border politics, whatever that is and then drag for a 00:26:04.699 --> 00:26:10.897 dream is bringing people together around um uh a show, bringing people 00:26:10.930 --> 00:26:15.325 together around, around entertainment. Um But, but really talking about 00:26:15.358 --> 00:26:19.656 what, what um undocumented LGBT Q community looks like and really 00:26:19.689 --> 00:26:24.637 celebrating the creations and energy of that community. How are these 00:26:24.670 --> 00:26:32.107 events um received in the community? Not only in undocumented LGBT 00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:35.877 community, but in the wider community. Do you feel that you are making a 00:26:35.910 --> 00:26:40.776 difference? Um So, yeah, again, the work over the last several years has 00:26:40.809 --> 00:26:44.107 really established that there is that this is a community that there is a 00:26:44.140 --> 00:26:49.266 queer and trans undocumented community and that in and of itself, people 00:26:49.299 --> 00:26:55.897 recognizing that that exists is important. Um Also Phoenix is the sixth 00:26:55.930 --> 00:27:03.887 biggest city in the country. And if we go to Mesa or if we go to any one 00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:10.897 of the gay bars on the weekend, we're gonna find 10 undocumented people or 00:27:10.930 --> 00:27:13.726 undocumented queer and trans people who have never heard that there is a 00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:19.597 movement. And so that means that we have a lot more work to do. Um So the 00:27:19.630 --> 00:27:22.446 work has been vital, it's been essential. It's been some of the most 00:27:22.479 --> 00:27:25.805 important work in the country. It's been one of the only chapters of, of 00:27:25.838 --> 00:27:30.016 national equip. That's even, that's been even existing up to this point. 00:27:30.049 --> 00:27:34.217 Um But there's a lot more work to do. Um How do you see that future 00:27:34.250 --> 00:27:39.835 evolving? Um Well, I think that's why um so Arcuri is something that 00:27:39.868 --> 00:27:44.117 started um actually kind of between puente and quip um with membership 00:27:44.150 --> 00:27:48.256 from both um like just over a year ago and kind of what we were looking at 00:27:48.289 --> 00:27:54.637 was that this amazing storytelling work had happened um and was happening 00:27:54.670 --> 00:27:58.186 and people understood the community existed. And now our step, next step 00:27:58.219 --> 00:28:05.436 was to really start building concrete solutions and responses. Um So my, 00:28:05.469 --> 00:28:08.575 what I see is that people don't, we don't have as a community, lots of 00:28:08.608 --> 00:28:13.986 volunteer time we don't, typically we're not able right to go spend days 00:28:14.019 --> 00:28:17.746 volunteering to do this or that. And so we need to have concrete ways to 00:28:17.779 --> 00:28:23.156 plug into work. Um And so people that the problems they have in front of 00:28:23.189 --> 00:28:29.607 them are things like health and housing um deportations um or other 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:34.686 interactions with immigration enforcement um jobs. Those are the things 00:28:34.719 --> 00:28:39.666 that queer and trans community, migrant community are, are fighting with, 00:28:39.699 --> 00:28:42.857 right? That, that's what the fight looks like. That's what injustice is on 00:28:42.890 --> 00:28:47.065 a daily basis. It's not having these things. Um And so the way we get 00:28:47.098 --> 00:28:50.946 people involved is by building those things with community and reaching 00:28:50.979 --> 00:28:55.347 out to community and engaging, asking what do you want, you know, I do, 00:28:55.380 --> 00:29:00.815 you want to make that happen. Um And when people say yes, bringing them in 00:29:00.848 --> 00:29:04.236 and making, you know, building a process that includes everyone who says 00:29:04.269 --> 00:29:09.946 yes. So that's how our careers liberation team came into the picture. Yeah. 00:29:09.979 --> 00:29:12.906 So it comes from both of these sides and it comes at an interesting time 00:29:12.939 --> 00:29:19.236 , which was that 1062 was a law that was proposed that would not, that 00:29:19.269 --> 00:29:24.676 would allow business owners to deny business or services to LGBT community 00:29:24.709 --> 00:29:30.186 um that was proposed and it was on the desk of Governor Brewer um at the 00:29:30.219 --> 00:29:33.795 same time that there was a hunger strike going on outside of the ice uh 00:29:33.828 --> 00:29:36.916 Ice headquarters just a couple blocks away from here. At Palm Street in 00:29:36.949 --> 00:29:41.986 central. Um There were about 30 people camped out for two weeks um on the 00:29:42.019 --> 00:29:48.710 sidewalk. Um uh around five families who were all, they were all in hunger 00:29:48.743 --> 00:29:53.960 strike. They were all that were not eating for those two weeks to demand 00:29:53.993 --> 00:29:58.141 the freedom of one. A couple of them were Children that were in detention 00:29:58.174 --> 00:30:04.736 , one of them was a husband. Um So different family members. Um And so 00:30:04.769 --> 00:30:07.217 these two things were happening just a few blocks away. There were 00:30:07.250 --> 00:30:12.976 protests against 1062 and there was this hunger strike. Um And they were 00:30:13.009 --> 00:30:21.009 sort of happening in two different worlds. Um 1062 had the, the resistance 00:30:21.059 --> 00:30:27.766 to 1062 had the support of all of the big LGBT organizations in the state. 00:30:27.799 --> 00:30:30.736 It had national support. There was money behind it, there was media 00:30:30.769 --> 00:30:34.347 behind it, there was immediately, there was a small business campaign 00:30:34.380 --> 00:30:39.357 across the city and they had so much power, business, power uh and money 00:30:39.390 --> 00:30:44.196 that they had, they were able to get Jan Brewer to throw it away off her 00:30:44.229 --> 00:30:49.486 desk. Um Then a couple of blocks away, we have families who haven't seen 00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:53.266 their Children for years and we're talking about a deportation epidemic 00:30:53.299 --> 00:30:56.456 that's um 00:30:56.489 --> 00:31:00.506 allowing people to be the victims of crimes in their community because 00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:03.446 they're not willing or able to communicate with the police that's stealing 00:31:03.479 --> 00:31:08.795 brothers and sisters and fathers uh and Children off the streets. Um and 00:31:08.828 --> 00:31:11.877 that's touching all of our communities in this really, like, ravaging way 00:31:11.910 --> 00:31:17.085 , this really concrete way. You know, it's, it's about losing your family 00:31:17.118 --> 00:31:19.967 members. It's like a war. You know, it's, it's something that's much more 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.897 , much more guttural than not, not being able to buy ice cream, which is 00:31:24.930 --> 00:31:28.315 terrible. Right. We, we can agree that, that, that sort of discrimination 00:31:28.348 --> 00:31:32.535 is terrible. But, but weighing these two things together, it's interesting. 00:31:32.568 --> 00:31:36.325 It was interesting to us and it was shocking and it was powerful to see 00:31:36.358 --> 00:31:44.358 how much support there was um for ensuring equal business access to queer 00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:52.236 and trans community. Um And how much support there was to versus the very 00:31:52.269 --> 00:31:55.637 little support that there was for ensuring that our families would stay 00:31:55.670 --> 00:31:59.335 together and our communities would stay together. Um And so we were, and 00:31:59.368 --> 00:32:03.476 we were the only people crossing and in present in both of these things. 00:32:03.509 --> 00:32:07.416 And so essentially Arcuri started like a couple like a week after that, a 00:32:07.449 --> 00:32:12.256 week after the hunger strike finished, we sat down and we said we need to 00:32:12.289 --> 00:32:17.055 find a space between these communities and we also need to find a way that 00:32:17.088 --> 00:32:21.147 we can make these deportation campaigns focus on our community because all 00:32:21.180 --> 00:32:23.686 of the organizations have really good intentions and they're not 00:32:23.719 --> 00:32:28.097 homophobic, but they don't find queer and trans people because they're all 00:32:28.130 --> 00:32:33.486 waiting for a family member to show up and as asylum seekers as, as people 00:32:33.519 --> 00:32:36.575 who are often estranged from our family or in order to live our lives, we 00:32:36.608 --> 00:32:41.256 have to move out and, and, and live separately. No one necessarily reports 00:32:41.289 --> 00:32:45.847 that we're gone. Um So recognizing these different things and the need to 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:50.676 create a space where we found our people. What? Yeah. So those are the 00:32:50.709 --> 00:32:56.555 real specific goals of our careers liberation team. So to, to find 00:32:56.588 --> 00:33:02.857 concrete solutions, what do you think are the biggest struggles of that 00:33:02.890 --> 00:33:07.825 community of that LGBT undocumented community facing deportation or are 00:33:07.858 --> 00:33:13.516 being detained? So um 00:33:13.549 --> 00:33:19.016 we deal with detention but then also when people get out of detention, um 00:33:19.049 --> 00:33:22.335 what that looks like? And that's something that I remember from Puente is 00:33:22.368 --> 00:33:25.387 that, that actually we talk like detention was the focus of the 00:33:25.420 --> 00:33:29.325 organization. But the questions at every meeting were, what are we gonna 00:33:29.358 --> 00:33:32.706 do to get job permits? Because now we're all out of detention and we're 00:33:32.739 --> 00:33:38.387 here in this room and we can't work um or keep our Children alive. So what 00:33:38.420 --> 00:33:41.107 is, what is survival look like? And so, and that essentially we deal with 00:33:41.140 --> 00:33:45.776 the same thing. We fight detention, but then we also post detention. A lot 00:33:45.809 --> 00:33:50.436 of our membership is coming out of detention, right? So in detention, 00:33:50.469 --> 00:33:55.526 we're talking about rape and sexual abuse. We're talking about constant um 00:33:55.559 --> 00:34:00.535 constant uh verbal and physical abuse from guards and from other people in 00:34:00.568 --> 00:34:04.416 detention, denial of medication. We've had people die because they've been 00:34:04.449 --> 00:34:08.626 denied A I Ds treatment. Um People get denied hormone treatment, trans 00:34:08.659 --> 00:34:11.695 people. Um 00:34:11.728 --> 00:34:17.526 And across the board are all put in the wrong gender facilities. Um 00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:20.845 Despite the fact that there's a law that says that people need to be 00:34:20.878 --> 00:34:25.805 housed with the gender of their identification, they're not ever. Um So 00:34:25.838 --> 00:34:29.577 it's in detention, not to mention what that looks like if someone actually 00:34:29.610 --> 00:34:32.666 gets deported to a place that they were fleeing from because of 00:34:32.699 --> 00:34:36.856 potentially harmful conditions or hazardous conditions and then post 00:34:36.889 --> 00:34:42.256 detention. Um Even somebody with the best asylum case ever, if they are 00:34:42.289 --> 00:34:48.215 able to put that asylum case in before they get um out of detention, they 00:34:48.248 --> 00:34:51.546 still have six months until they're allowed to ask for a work permit. And 00:34:51.579 --> 00:34:56.124 then another two months until it comes through is like nine months, 8 to 9 00:34:56.157 --> 00:34:59.555 months. So it's like almost a year before people are legally allowed, 00:34:59.588 --> 00:35:04.405 legally allowed to work. Um And then once they are legally allowed to work 00:35:04.438 --> 00:35:08.175 , then they're going up against trying to get a job as queer and trans 00:35:08.208 --> 00:35:11.316 people in a state where you're legally allowed to not give people jobs 00:35:11.349 --> 00:35:16.727 because of their sexual identity or gender identity. So jobs is the 00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:19.506 biggest thing. Um 00:35:19.539 --> 00:35:22.517 We've had people leave the state. Um And actually this is one of the 00:35:22.550 --> 00:35:25.566 biggest reasons that we have to fight these fights is because if we don't 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:28.506 fight these fights, then we don't have anyone to fight anything because 00:35:28.539 --> 00:35:31.365 everyone has to go to L A or New York where there's more resources and 00:35:31.398 --> 00:35:36.155 more possibilities. Um Housing is another huge one. The biggest thing that 00:35:36.188 --> 00:35:39.236 happens is people come out of detention and they go to back with their 00:35:39.269 --> 00:35:43.787 families if they have a family, but then their family doesn't allow them 00:35:43.820 --> 00:35:48.816 or isn't comfortable with them being queer or trans. And so then within a 00:35:48.849 --> 00:35:53.365 couple of weeks, people are terribly depressed. Um they might be engaging 00:35:53.398 --> 00:35:55.885 in like different kinds of risky behaviors that people do when they're 00:35:55.918 --> 00:36:00.945 depressed. Um like substance abuse or different kinds of self medication. 00:36:00.978 --> 00:36:04.456 Um They can't find jobs and they're having, we're having to work in 00:36:04.489 --> 00:36:08.845 informal economy. And so even in the best of circumstances, right, that 00:36:08.878 --> 00:36:12.425 means working without papers or selling cigarettes on the street corner, 00:36:12.458 --> 00:36:16.506 both of which expose you to ice and police. The worst of circumstances. 00:36:16.539 --> 00:36:20.506 We're talking about people having to do, like going to the being 00:36:20.539 --> 00:36:25.626 trafficked or, or, or um um sex work or different things that are even 00:36:25.659 --> 00:36:32.776 more risky, um which exposes people again to more, like more contact with 00:36:32.809 --> 00:36:39.206 p with the police um and more um contact with immigration. Um And then 00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:43.655 health is huge too. Um 00:36:43.688 --> 00:36:47.456 Just getting the resources in a state like Arizona where it's both a 00:36:47.489 --> 00:36:51.106 homophobic state and it's also a state where there's a complete ban on 00:36:51.139 --> 00:36:55.727 undocumented people receiving uh state funded resources. So trying to find 00:36:55.760 --> 00:37:00.486 things out like, where can somebody who is suicidal? Go to get, um, a 00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:06.606 consultation with a psychologist? Um, that kind of stuff. It's really hard. 00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:08.686 So, 00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:14.336 I guess that's what jobs, housing help. But there's lots of things. What 00:37:14.369 --> 00:37:20.115 are the concrete, for example, to, to first focus on people who are in 00:37:20.148 --> 00:37:24.997 detention? What does our career liberation team try to do for those people 00:37:25.030 --> 00:37:30.477 ? So, we visit once every two weeks, we visit folks and it's often the 00:37:30.510 --> 00:37:35.997 only visit that people get um for over the course of several months. Um 00:37:36.030 --> 00:37:39.356 Sometimes it's the first visit they've gotten in a year of being detained. 00:37:39.389 --> 00:37:46.046 Um And, um, and we write letters and those are both about moral support. 00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:49.856 Um It's about letting people know that they have community um that they 00:37:49.889 --> 00:37:54.675 are not crazy and they're not alone and that there is something to fight 00:37:54.708 --> 00:38:00.706 for. Um, and someone else out there that's looking, looking after them. Um 00:38:00.739 --> 00:38:08.739 So moral support is really key. Um We also when, when cases, um when it 00:38:10.539 --> 00:38:14.756 seems like a possibility, we work on cases, we make them public and we'll 00:38:14.789 --> 00:38:18.456 build campaigns to try to get people out. And so we've had a couple of 00:38:18.489 --> 00:38:24.365 campaigns now um for two members to get them out of detention. Um And 00:38:24.398 --> 00:38:27.385 those are both successful and we're in the middle of another campaign 00:38:27.418 --> 00:38:33.666 right now. Um Where basically it's a question of sort of shaming ice um of 00:38:33.699 --> 00:38:39.186 making it really clear in public um that ice is doing really terrible 00:38:39.219 --> 00:38:42.756 things to people and at a certain point, Ice is willing to just let them 00:38:42.789 --> 00:38:47.767 go so that they don't have to be um scrutinized in the way, in that way by 00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:51.796 the public. Could you give an example of one of those campaigns? What your 00:38:51.829 --> 00:38:56.767 tactics were and um what the actual result was, how it was conceived in 00:38:56.800 --> 00:39:02.376 the community? Yeah. So, um I think the most successful one was Mari Chuy. 00:39:02.409 --> 00:39:08.977 Um And we, she was a member in detention from starting last spring. So, 00:39:09.010 --> 00:39:14.756 actually about a year ago, um and then in the, into the summer around June 00:39:14.789 --> 00:39:19.767 , she called us and we learned that um she um suffered a sexual assault 00:39:19.800 --> 00:39:26.836 that she was raped by her cell mate. Um And so we um reached out to 00:39:26.869 --> 00:39:32.146 national partners um to different people um who work on either transgender 00:39:32.179 --> 00:39:36.557 rights or legal representation or migrant community rights and legal 00:39:36.590 --> 00:39:44.590 representation. Um and started, started a media campaign. Um So we first, 00:39:46.918 --> 00:39:49.816 well, I should say before the media campaign, there's a, we, there were 00:39:49.849 --> 00:39:53.186 several weeks of communicating with ice and saying, hey, this is going on 00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:57.017 , what are you doing about it? Getting the response of uh nothing, 00:39:57.050 --> 00:40:00.336 everything's OK. Um And then going up the ladder and communicating with 00:40:00.369 --> 00:40:03.287 the next person. And so finally, when we reached ice at the national level 00:40:03.320 --> 00:40:09.106 , um and got the no from them, we said, OK, well, then we're gonna, um, we 00:40:09.139 --> 00:40:14.195 make it public. And so that campaign in particular, we had publicity, like 00:40:14.228 --> 00:40:18.986 the first public sort of shock went from, 00:40:19.019 --> 00:40:24.807 um, like it was in the Advocate, uh, was on most of the major, uh, news 00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:30.217 stations like Fox and CNN. Um, it went to both coasts in terms of 00:40:30.250 --> 00:40:35.856 newspaper coverage. Um, and that was really because of our co of our 00:40:35.889 --> 00:40:39.686 contacts and other organizations. So that was because of um working 00:40:39.719 --> 00:40:44.916 through this big network of support around the country. Um And then once 00:40:44.949 --> 00:40:49.327 that happened, we were able to push an organizational sign on letter. Um 00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:52.905 So we were able to get a letter that was signed on to by like 80 00:40:52.938 --> 00:40:58.135 organizations around the country. Um And part of those organizations were 00:40:58.168 --> 00:41:02.456 , were um some of the powerful gay rights organizations like uh human 00:41:02.489 --> 00:41:10.336 rights campaign. Um And um um the task force, the gay and lesbian task 00:41:10.369 --> 00:41:13.747 force. Glad some organizations that haven't traditionally stood up for 00:41:13.780 --> 00:41:18.896 trans rights and also haven't traditionally had anything to do with um 00:41:18.929 --> 00:41:24.566 social or racial, sorry, economic or racial justice. Um We were able to 00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:31.037 get sign on to that. Um So at a certain point, the focus was that was, was 00:41:31.070 --> 00:41:37.666 bringing pressure to bear from all of these powerful organizations. Um 00:41:37.699 --> 00:41:43.135 And then, um from there, we focused on elected officials. Um Here in 00:41:43.168 --> 00:41:48.717 Phoenix, we have Kirsten Cinema who's a member of the LGBT caucus, um 00:41:48.750 --> 00:41:54.526 which is like supposed to represent LGBT rights in, um, uh, in the, in the 00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:58.166 national legislature. Um So we were really focusing on trying to get her 00:41:58.199 --> 00:42:02.546 support. Um, and that's kind of where we hit a wall because she refused. 00:42:02.579 --> 00:42:10.579 Um, and, um, and then the nationally, the caucus, um said that the most 00:42:11.250 --> 00:42:14.767 that they were willing to do was just ask how she was doing, but no one 00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:21.155 was willing to say that, that she should be out. Um So when we saw that 00:42:21.188 --> 00:42:28.885 even our LGBT legislators weren't interested in supporting, um we moved 00:42:28.918 --> 00:42:36.695 back into the media and we kept going at it and in fall um 00:42:36.728 --> 00:42:41.365 is that, that the pressure lessened on our part, it had been like four 00:42:41.398 --> 00:42:44.767 months of like constant go, go, go, go, go. And we sort of said we need to 00:42:44.800 --> 00:42:48.477 reassess. Um 00:42:48.510 --> 00:42:53.217 And then it was in, 00:42:53.250 --> 00:42:59.186 in December is when we found out that she was gonna be out. Um So 00:42:59.219 --> 00:43:02.796 essentially, it was this year long process, there was this big push at the 00:43:02.829 --> 00:43:07.925 beginning, a strong push through the middle and then essentially, we were 00:43:07.958 --> 00:43:13.037 up against the wall and trying to reach for ideas and more energy. Um And 00:43:13.070 --> 00:43:19.217 then after this time, kind of when it quieted down, I just let her go. Um 00:43:19.250 --> 00:43:23.356 And recognized when they let her, when she was released, it was in the, in 00:43:23.389 --> 00:43:27.956 the decision was they recognized the role of the um of the community of 00:43:27.989 --> 00:43:32.166 the LGBT community in doing that. So that was kind of how that was. It's a 00:43:32.199 --> 00:43:38.736 really long process, it doesn't happen immediately. Um Yeah, but, but it 00:43:38.769 --> 00:43:43.336 works. Did you feel that you created more awareness in the public about 00:43:43.369 --> 00:43:48.695 the issue? Yeah, I mean, I think Mighty Chuy's campaign is something that 00:43:48.728 --> 00:43:52.095 at least in organizing, at least in migrant movement across the country. 00:43:52.128 --> 00:43:56.336 Everyone knows about it and in and in queer and trans community, people 00:43:56.369 --> 00:44:00.986 who are politically engaged. Um And it was the first big campaign, right? 00:44:01.019 --> 00:44:04.836 That was really talking about um what it looks like to be trans in 00:44:04.869 --> 00:44:11.217 detention in mi in immigration detention. Um 00:44:11.250 --> 00:44:17.135 So yeah, I mean, it seems really important. Um how and then going back to 00:44:17.168 --> 00:44:23.017 um after detention. So the three biggest problems you've mentioned were 00:44:23.050 --> 00:44:29.095 work housing and health. How do you try to relegate those problems? 00:44:29.128 --> 00:44:36.256 So we recognize that we're not gonna solve them by like giving people jobs 00:44:36.289 --> 00:44:40.477 or giving people beds to sleep in because there's way more people than we 00:44:40.510 --> 00:44:45.986 could ever find beds, for example. But what we have to do is create 00:44:46.019 --> 00:44:50.166 community solutions or people who are experiencing, not having a job or 00:44:50.199 --> 00:44:55.175 not having a place to sleep um are able to solve their own problem or at 00:44:55.208 --> 00:45:01.046 least work on it and in doing so are gaining agency and voice. So they're 00:45:01.079 --> 00:45:06.066 getting their, they're raising their own voice and learning how to tell 00:45:06.099 --> 00:45:09.256 their own story in a powerful way and learning how to essentially how to 00:45:09.289 --> 00:45:14.787 write their own path forward. Um So really pulling away from some of the 00:45:14.820 --> 00:45:17.997 charitable models that we've seen, you know, where like people, like we 00:45:18.030 --> 00:45:21.896 build a house and then uh we'll give room to everybody to sleep in. Um And 00:45:21.929 --> 00:45:26.345 really focusing um like the jobs project. One of the things that we're 00:45:26.378 --> 00:45:30.436 working on is a micro business. Um So one of the guys who came out of 00:45:30.469 --> 00:45:34.586 detention last year is now running a small like pop up restaurant and he 00:45:34.619 --> 00:45:38.287 starts it. He does the restaurant every month or two months and we invite 00:45:38.320 --> 00:45:41.396 a bunch of people. He designs a fancy meal, we pres sell the tickets and 00:45:41.429 --> 00:45:46.497 then um people come and join us for that evening. Uh And then out of that 00:45:46.530 --> 00:45:52.296 , we're working on some other ways that people can um kind of have a tool 00:45:52.329 --> 00:45:56.356 kit so that they can, if they say know how to do nails or know how to do 00:45:56.389 --> 00:45:59.706 carpentry, they can take some pictures of the work they do, they can put 00:45:59.739 --> 00:46:04.856 together an ad, we can push it out over social media. Um And they can, in 00:46:04.889 --> 00:46:10.006 that way it's, it's not gonna totally solve their need, but it will, 00:46:10.039 --> 00:46:14.727 having some money is better than having no money. Um 00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:19.327 Health is another one where, where the, the way we're going about health 00:46:19.360 --> 00:46:24.577 is um essentially just asking people what the gap what the health gaps 00:46:24.610 --> 00:46:27.787 they experience are, what, what do they need? What are the, what are the 00:46:27.820 --> 00:46:31.945 challenges that they've dealt with? Um And based on that, inviting them 00:46:31.978 --> 00:46:37.997 into the conversation um to, to fix those things. Um So all of all of 00:46:38.030 --> 00:46:42.517 these, we're always using a model where we ask people what's wrong and 00:46:42.550 --> 00:46:45.706 then invite them to help us fix it. And we understand that not everyone, 00:46:45.739 --> 00:46:50.365 we're not gonna get 100% of people. But if we only get 10% of people, all 00:46:50.398 --> 00:46:53.106 we have to do is make sure to ask 10 people and we'll get one who wants to 00:46:53.139 --> 00:46:56.345 commit. So if we ask 100 people, then we'll get a team of 10 and that's 00:46:56.378 --> 00:47:01.316 really good because we can ask 100 people. So, um you mentioned that there 00:47:01.349 --> 00:47:06.606 is a large network of these organizations not only locally, regionally and 00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:14.639 nationally. Um First of all, how do uh for example, our careers and uh a 00:47:15.148 --> 00:47:20.606 equip work together? And how would you situate these uh these 00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:27.336 organizations in a larger undocumented youth movement? Um 00:47:27.369 --> 00:47:33.425 So Arcuri and a work really closely together um 00:47:33.458 --> 00:47:39.925 to the extent that um we don't have an official, like what do you call it 00:47:39.958 --> 00:47:43.767 mou memorandum of understanding? So it actually sometimes it's confusing 00:47:43.800 --> 00:47:47.467 for membership, which one is which, and which project is, which 00:47:47.500 --> 00:47:53.506 organization? Um the definitive difference, right is I think resources is 00:47:53.539 --> 00:47:58.175 that they do have their own separate bank accounts. So like that is that 00:47:58.208 --> 00:48:02.845 they are clearly separate organizations because, um, we don't get funding 00:48:02.878 --> 00:48:08.885 from quip to do the stuff that we do as aquis and vice versa. Um And so 00:48:08.918 --> 00:48:12.046 we're working on that on figuring that out how, how it makes sense to work 00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:15.876 together in a local way, um, 00:48:15.909 --> 00:48:23.086 nationally. Um 00:48:23.119 --> 00:48:27.747 It's, I think it's interesting to see what's happening now in Phoenix and 00:48:27.780 --> 00:48:32.956 how it's connected to what has happened in other places like California, 00:48:32.989 --> 00:48:40.467 um even like North Carolina, um New York. Um and the way that United we 00:48:40.500 --> 00:48:46.307 dream initially was big in these places. And then at a certain point, 00:48:46.340 --> 00:48:52.336 people began looking into more racial and economic justice focused 00:48:52.369 --> 00:48:57.336 solutions. Um And in California, for example, they started developing some 00:48:57.369 --> 00:49:01.885 really, like fairly radical organizations that, that really delved into 00:49:01.918 --> 00:49:06.666 what justice means for our communities. Um And so then at different points 00:49:06.699 --> 00:49:10.967 , right? There was UWD and then there was N A, the National Immigrant 00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:14.997 Youth Association, um which was like the more radical alternative and a 00:49:15.030 --> 00:49:20.626 lot of people joined into that from all over the place. Um And Arizona has 00:49:20.659 --> 00:49:25.135 always been part of UWD and part of quip nationally, even though the quip 00:49:25.168 --> 00:49:29.885 here was founded before um the National one. So it seemed like an 00:49:29.918 --> 00:49:34.925 interesting point when the immigrant youth movement here in Arizona is now 00:49:34.958 --> 00:49:39.956 starting to, to delve into potentially some more radical politics in the 00:49:39.989 --> 00:49:43.175 sense when I and I use the word radical in the meaning because radical is 00:49:43.208 --> 00:49:47.807 about roots. So finding the root of the problem and resolving it. Um so 00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:52.467 less policy focused and more roots focused, more focused on. So if the 00:49:52.500 --> 00:49:56.186 problem is economic injustice, how do we work on changing that? If the 00:49:56.219 --> 00:50:00.276 problem is colonialism, how do we work on changing that? So I think it's 00:50:00.309 --> 00:50:03.967 an interesting time. Um 00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:07.706 And I think it means that Arizona right now is sort of between a lot of 00:50:07.739 --> 00:50:12.186 national players who would really like to have a footprint here or who 00:50:12.219 --> 00:50:14.336 would like to be, you know, who would like to show that they have a 00:50:14.369 --> 00:50:17.477 project going on in Arizona because it's sort of this terrible and 00:50:17.510 --> 00:50:23.497 exciting place. Um As far as um migrant organizing goes, there's a lot of 00:50:23.530 --> 00:50:27.526 really hard, like harsh realities here. And so to be able to say you do 00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:31.896 work in Arizona, I is a big thing and a lot of national organizations say 00:50:31.929 --> 00:50:36.646 we want to do work, we, we do work there. Um So it's interesting to find 00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:41.747 how we are located between all of these. We get a lot of support from 00:50:41.780 --> 00:50:46.037 organizations like the transgender law center and organizations like the 00:50:46.070 --> 00:50:52.816 um like Endon, like the National Day Laborers Organizing Network. Um 00:50:52.849 --> 00:50:56.356 um because they want to support what's happening locally and they want to 00:50:56.389 --> 00:51:00.287 support us doing something that makes sense to do here and we get a lot of 00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:06.236 support from other local organizations like um um in New York, the queer 00:51:06.269 --> 00:51:13.655 detainee empowerment project or in California from CIA um from the um the 00:51:13.688 --> 00:51:18.396 Californian Immigrant Youth uh co uh Association Alliance. I don't know 00:51:18.429 --> 00:51:24.686 what that is. Um And then, um and so there's a lot of these kinds of, 00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:28.195 these kinds of alliances and then our relationship with some big up, some 00:51:28.228 --> 00:51:33.376 of the, there's like quip and then familia are the two big national um 00:51:33.409 --> 00:51:38.936 queer undocumented organizations. And her relationship with them is, is 00:51:38.969 --> 00:51:42.066 always good because they do really great work on a national level. But 00:51:42.099 --> 00:51:46.345 it's also interesting because they often 00:51:46.378 --> 00:51:51.646 mm present that they're doing work here and yet they're not. So it's an 00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:55.845 interesting interaction, you know about, about are they would just, what 00:51:55.878 --> 00:51:58.566 does that look like? You know, or do we have to be part of them to support 00:51:58.599 --> 00:52:02.467 each other or how, how does that play out? Do you see that future evolving 00:52:02.500 --> 00:52:07.026 um that you, that the smaller local and national organizations will cooper 00:52:07.059 --> 00:52:11.037 ? I think we do co-operate. And so I think the future is that we'll just 00:52:11.070 --> 00:52:14.896 learn how to do it better. And I think what Arizona seems to be a little 00:52:14.929 --> 00:52:17.936 hard headed, which I think is something that's really good about its 00:52:17.969 --> 00:52:21.467 organizing. It insists on doing things that are authentic and it makes 00:52:21.500 --> 00:52:24.546 sense for the local climate which may not be the same things that make 00:52:24.579 --> 00:52:30.256 sense in New York or Oregon. Um, and so I think the future is that Arizona 00:52:30.289 --> 00:52:34.086 will continue to decide to do its own thing and do really good local 00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:38.115 organizing here and we learn better and better and better how to work with 00:52:38.148 --> 00:52:45.006 people nationally. Um That's what I think on a personal level. Um, how has 00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:49.416 , well becoming, you've, you've already have a long history of, of being 00:52:49.449 --> 00:52:53.936 an activist. But how do you feel that your involvement with, for example, 00:52:53.969 --> 00:53:00.590 Arizona quip and our careers liberation team has influenced you personally. 00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:02.639 Um Oh, 00:53:04.449 --> 00:53:12.449 well, I think that it's um 00:53:14.300 --> 00:53:20.615 I feel more identified with the people that I spend time with um 00:53:20.648 --> 00:53:26.166 than I have ever really before. So I, I, in some ways, it feels like I've 00:53:26.199 --> 00:53:32.566 found a community of people. Um It won't ever be my community because I'm 00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:39.796 not from Arizona. Um And um and because my migration history is different 00:53:39.829 --> 00:53:46.477 , I'm a citizen. Um But it's a community that I um again, kind of like I 00:53:46.510 --> 00:53:49.436 said, when I first went back to Mexico, this is like on another level, 00:53:49.469 --> 00:53:53.945 like I can breathe. Um I can, I feel easy here and, and with the people 00:53:53.978 --> 00:53:59.595 that I'm working with. Um and it also is, it's a time and a place where 00:53:59.628 --> 00:54:07.628 we're ready to move and so ready to do things. And so it seems like, 00:54:08.699 --> 00:54:14.236 um I think I spent a lot of my life waiting to move and waiting to be 00:54:14.269 --> 00:54:20.086 ready to do things. I grew up in, you know, the late nineties was the tech 00:54:20.119 --> 00:54:25.166 bubble. It was when the US was just blowing up economically and people 00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:29.776 were becoming millionaires every day and the internet was going full 00:54:29.809 --> 00:54:35.327 throttle and it was supposed to be like the most abundant, wealthy country 00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:39.267 in the world. And I lived in a place where people lived in half torn apart 00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:45.956 trailers with, you know, with a tent next door. Um and um couldn't feed 00:54:45.989 --> 00:54:49.865 their kids. And so, and so I've always had this feeling of like there's 00:54:49.898 --> 00:54:53.655 all these terrible things happening, we need to change things and yet 00:54:53.688 --> 00:54:57.756 there's this just heavy pressure of saying everything's OK, there's 00:54:57.789 --> 00:55:00.635 nothing to change, don't worry about it. This is all we are. At the end of 00:55:00.668 --> 00:55:06.256 history, we've already done it all. We have justice. Um So there's a lot 00:55:06.289 --> 00:55:10.247 of relief being in a community of people where, where we're all on the 00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:14.506 same page of understanding that there's a lot of ways to go. There's a lot 00:55:14.539 --> 00:55:18.066 of, a lot of, a lot of path ahead of us and, and that we really need to 00:55:18.099 --> 00:55:22.327 work on it. So in that sense, it's like really fulfilling to be part of 00:55:22.360 --> 00:55:29.057 this and to be here. Um Yeah. Um a little bit more about the identity. So 00:55:29.090 --> 00:55:35.736 how do you see the undocumented identity intersect with the LGGT identity 00:55:35.769 --> 00:55:43.769 ? Um 00:55:48.610 --> 00:55:53.717 I think there's some interesting things on both sides. Um 00:55:53.750 --> 00:55:56.626 through most of history, queer and trans people, especially in this 00:55:56.659 --> 00:56:02.385 continent. We've had very much accepted roles in our societies. And often 00:56:02.418 --> 00:56:07.336 we've been identified as having special roles. So we've been caretakers, 00:56:07.369 --> 00:56:11.577 sometimes we've been warriors, sometimes we've been visionaries sometimes. 00:56:11.610 --> 00:56:14.776 Um gosh, there was like one at least and I'm thinking of one group of 00:56:14.809 --> 00:56:19.655 people who considered uh queer and trans people to be like the gatekeepers 00:56:19.688 --> 00:56:26.037 to the underworld, you know, all sorts of things. Um There's always been 00:56:26.070 --> 00:56:28.876 in, in, in the traditional cultures of this continent, at least the ones 00:56:28.909 --> 00:56:36.396 that I have learned about. There's been this um a recognition that we have 00:56:36.429 --> 00:56:39.227 um 00:56:39.260 --> 00:56:43.776 a unique viewpoint and that because we're slightly outside of the circle 00:56:43.809 --> 00:56:50.526 um of, of um nuclear families or of heteronormative culture, um We have a 00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:54.686 slightly wider view or maybe it's a slightly narrow, narrow view, but we 00:56:54.719 --> 00:56:59.106 can see things that other people can't see. And so I think that queer and 00:56:59.139 --> 00:57:07.139 trans people always bring incisive um incisive vision and creative vision 00:57:07.139 --> 00:57:13.546 to the work that we do. Um And this is why any of the movements that have 00:57:13.579 --> 00:57:18.046 happened in this country for racial and economic justice, even if the top 00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:22.046 leaders are not, if you go just below the surface, the people who wrote 00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:25.577 the books and wrote the plans and designed the marches were queer and 00:57:25.610 --> 00:57:30.365 trans people. Um So I think that's important to understand that there's an 00:57:30.398 --> 00:57:35.256 , there's an because we have been outside, we are, we have had to become 00:57:35.289 --> 00:57:39.376 visionary. We have to have, we have to make new stuff, you know, in a very 00:57:39.409 --> 00:57:42.666 simple way. When people are resourceful, any person, if you put them 00:57:42.699 --> 00:57:45.077 outside a box or outside of a house, they'll figure out how to live 00:57:45.110 --> 00:57:49.195 outside of it. So we've been put outside of the box. Um And we have to 00:57:49.228 --> 00:57:52.356 figure that out. So it means that we can create new solutions and that 00:57:52.389 --> 00:58:00.389 makes us able to create new solutions and be visionary. Um I think having 00:58:03.708 --> 00:58:07.445 and my experience and, and this is I can't speak as an undocumented person 00:58:07.478 --> 00:58:13.615 , but I can speak as a person who I didn't grow up with an American dream. 00:58:13.648 --> 00:58:19.006 Um I grew up with, I always think of it as the dream of Guam Milpas. And 00:58:19.039 --> 00:58:25.615 Guam Pas is the community that my mother built in the pedal in the south 00:58:25.648 --> 00:58:30.876 of Mexico City in the volcanic um the volcanic rock fields. And the old 00:58:30.909 --> 00:58:33.736 ladies there said that there were still snakes crawling out of the caves 00:58:33.769 --> 00:58:38.217 and there was still water in the low parts. Um 00:58:38.250 --> 00:58:41.537 And today that's a community that while many other communities founded at 00:58:41.570 --> 00:58:45.845 the same time who never organized, still don't have running water or paved 00:58:45.878 --> 00:58:49.807 streets or plumbing or um trash collection. It's a community where 00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:52.977 everyone owns their own home, the streets are paved, everything is plumbed. 00:58:53.010 --> 00:58:59.977 People are very poor but they have their stuff and things work. Um 00:59:00.010 --> 00:59:07.166 And so what I remember the, the central image that like the logo or the 00:59:07.199 --> 00:59:11.287 emblem, I guess of the community where we had a poster on our wall. Um Was 00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:14.686 there a circle and it was a mound of dirt and with a shovel sticking out 00:59:14.719 --> 00:59:19.336 of one side and a pitch fork in the other. Um And then all of these 00:59:19.369 --> 00:59:25.106 pictures around the edge and like that old sepia toed photograph um of 00:59:25.139 --> 00:59:30.736 people building stuff together. Um And so that's always, that's the vision 00:59:30.769 --> 00:59:35.517 that I grew up with. It's not a vision of 00:59:35.550 --> 00:59:41.686 manifest destiny and westward expansion and cities on hills and shining 00:59:41.719 --> 00:59:46.037 lights of, of um 00:59:46.070 --> 00:59:50.336 Yeah, of, of knowledge. It's a vision of people standing together and 00:59:50.369 --> 00:59:53.546 working together and understanding that we're on a continent that we've 00:59:53.579 --> 00:59:59.186 been on for thousands of years and that none of this is new, but there are 00:59:59.219 --> 01:00:03.586 lots of new problems and that we really have to be recovering from what 01:00:03.619 --> 01:00:09.706 colonialism has brought to us and we have to be um building solutions 01:00:09.739 --> 01:00:13.436 every day. And 01:00:13.469 --> 01:00:17.115 so I think there's something essential about having roots outside of this 01:00:17.148 --> 01:00:21.405 country that allow you to see through its story and see through its 01:00:21.438 --> 01:00:26.206 mythology. Um 01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:30.646 And then I think the question of being undocumented, I can just say in my 01:00:30.679 --> 01:00:34.566 personal experience, having undocumented family and having undocumented 01:00:34.599 --> 01:00:38.626 community um 01:00:38.659 --> 01:00:44.827 is it is an even more acute experience and even more pointed experience of 01:00:44.860 --> 01:00:50.217 um essentially just not having any reason to have faith in an American 01:00:50.250 --> 01:00:54.135 system because you can't call the police and you are afraid to go to the 01:00:54.168 --> 01:00:59.126 post office. Um So there's just an essential, 01:00:59.159 --> 01:01:03.217 it's not a mistrust because that sounds like a bias. It's not a bias. It's 01:01:03.250 --> 01:01:10.017 just that we don't, there are no assumptions. Um We don't assume that 01:01:10.050 --> 01:01:13.776 things are OK. We investigate. 01:01:13.809 --> 01:01:19.666 How do you feel about the tactic of the undocumented youth movement of 01:01:19.699 --> 01:01:25.776 coming out undocumented and unafraid? Um 01:01:25.809 --> 01:01:28.247 J 01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:31.517 Here we go. 01:01:31.550 --> 01:01:36.497 So this is the continued recording with Jonathan. So I was just asking you 01:01:36.530 --> 01:01:42.586 about the um the tactic of coming out as undocumented and unafraid. So how 01:01:42.619 --> 01:01:49.095 do you feel about that? 01:01:49.128 --> 01:01:55.017 I think one of the most important things we can do is openly recognize um 01:01:55.050 --> 01:01:58.586 openly recognize the things that people will use to undermine us and 01:01:58.619 --> 01:02:03.736 openly recognize the ways that people say that we are made that people say 01:02:03.769 --> 01:02:07.675 that we are less worthy or say that we are not um not as much. I think if 01:02:07.708 --> 01:02:15.166 we claim these things um publicly and proudly, then we turn them from what 01:02:15.199 --> 01:02:22.046 people call weaknesses into tools and into, into defenses and into um yeah 01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:27.836 , into points of strength. I mean, yeah, so I think it's a powerful, so 01:02:27.869 --> 01:02:32.586 you already mentioned some of the policies. So for example, on a state 01:02:32.619 --> 01:02:37.916 level, restrictive policies like SB 1017 and proposition 300 have 01:02:37.949 --> 01:02:40.037 implemented, 01:02:40.070 --> 01:02:46.997 how do you feel about SB 1070? And of course, this policy has personally 01:02:47.030 --> 01:02:52.378 affected you and that you, that it became a motivator for your activism. 01:02:54.760 --> 01:02:56.760 Well, so my family here in Arizona, we're, we're as of very recently now, 01:03:00.228 --> 01:03:08.228 we're all documented. Um But up until very recently, um the reality of not 01:03:08.340 --> 01:03:16.340 calling police for anything. Um the reality of um 01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:24.316 risking um family separation for like fairly small things is huge. Um And 01:03:24.349 --> 01:03:30.345 I think that its psychological impact is huge in terms of people 01:03:30.378 --> 01:03:37.478 being able and willing to step out and really use their voice in society. 01:03:37.780 --> 01:03:39.780 And then proposition 300 in turn, provides that university students who 01:03:42.188 --> 01:03:47.006 are not us citizens or permanent residents or do not have lawful 01:03:47.039 --> 01:03:51.566 immigration status are not eligible for in state to tuition rates or any 01:03:51.599 --> 01:03:57.856 financial aid that is funded by the state. And also on the federal level, 01:03:57.889 --> 01:04:03.445 a Comprehensive Dream Act has not yet been able to pass in 2012. Pre 01:04:03.478 --> 01:04:09.026 President Barack Obama passed the deferred action for childhood arrivals. 01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:13.845 Complimented that with the deferred action for parental accountability. 01:04:13.878 --> 01:04:19.845 What do you think about that policy? Do you feel that immigration reform 01:04:19.878 --> 01:04:26.345 should be focused at the local, the state or the federal level? 01:04:26.378 --> 01:04:30.217 I think that we have to take success where we can get it. I shouldn't, I 01:04:30.250 --> 01:04:34.756 said that wrong. We have to demand success where we can get it and not 01:04:34.789 --> 01:04:42.789 accept anything as a win. We have to, everything is a step toward um but 01:04:43.889 --> 01:04:46.615 it's going to be a long time before we see something that actually does 01:04:46.648 --> 01:04:50.646 what we needed to do. Uh Federal level immigration reform is terrifying in 01:04:50.679 --> 01:04:55.356 the way that it promises long term criminalization for the community that 01:04:55.389 --> 01:04:59.276 continues to cross the border. And for the way that it militarizes the 01:04:59.309 --> 01:05:07.309 border and for the way that it uh promises persecution for um people 01:05:08.099 --> 01:05:12.057 already in this country without documents and with criminal backgrounds, 01:05:12.090 --> 01:05:16.776 um those things and, and, and the fact that those would now be tho those 01:05:16.809 --> 01:05:22.296 categories, those um um things would be written into federal law is like 01:05:22.329 --> 01:05:26.425 very worrying. So in that sense, a national package that we know that 01:05:26.458 --> 01:05:30.057 they're gonna put all of these terrible things into. It's hard to know 01:05:30.090 --> 01:05:37.026 what, what the balance is, what are those things really worth? Um um DACA 01:05:37.059 --> 01:05:45.059 Al uh also um is clearly huge and important and has changed. Um 01:05:47.228 --> 01:05:51.477 Our, like the life of my community has changed and has changed lives like 01:05:51.510 --> 01:05:56.816 really significantly, it's also reversible, it's incomplete. It doesn't 01:05:56.849 --> 01:06:02.236 give a pathway to the basic rights that any person ha already has. So it 01:06:02.269 --> 01:06:09.186 doesn't recognize our human rights. Um So it's very much, not, not enough 01:06:09.219 --> 01:06:13.615 , not the whole thing. Um 01:06:13.648 --> 01:06:18.276 And the way that this country has traditionally worked is that instead of 01:06:18.309 --> 01:06:22.537 solving problems, it just gives a little bit of a palliative, it gives 01:06:22.570 --> 01:06:28.467 something to make you feel a little bit better. Um So I wonder, you know, 01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:31.445 what, what we saw in the immigrant youth movement was that after DACA was 01:06:31.478 --> 01:06:37.396 passed? A lot of people said, oh, it's over where it's OK and they pulled 01:06:37.429 --> 01:06:42.365 out of the movement and the movement lost a lot of momentum. Um And then 01:06:42.398 --> 01:06:45.807 also what does it look like now that people have DACA and can get 01:06:45.840 --> 01:06:49.316 different kinds of jobs, they can't dedicate time to the movement. So it's 01:06:49.349 --> 01:06:53.236 really changed the nature of the youth movement um in the way that people 01:06:53.269 --> 01:06:58.717 engage and in the amount that they're able to engage. Um 01:06:58.750 --> 01:07:02.606 So I don't know what I know, I guess is that in my personal focus is that 01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:07.477 national policy seems always feels like it makes me balance, it makes me 01:07:07.510 --> 01:07:11.236 give away too much to get whatever they're promising. And I know that at a 01:07:11.269 --> 01:07:15.026 local level, things are, 01:07:15.059 --> 01:07:18.666 we can't do it completely at a local level, but I do know that we can push 01:07:18.699 --> 01:07:23.675 for policy that will be good. Um And we can know what that balance is a 01:07:23.708 --> 01:07:27.445 little better. So I feel more comfortable in my work, pushing for local 01:07:27.478 --> 01:07:31.276 policy like the one ID for Phoenix, the Municipal identification for 01:07:31.309 --> 01:07:34.856 Phoenix City. Um 01:07:34.889 --> 01:07:39.086 and that kind of thing um that I'm more comfortable with that than 01:07:39.119 --> 01:07:43.416 national, but I recognize the importance of both how do you see it 01:07:43.449 --> 01:07:47.727 evolving towards the future? Like you said, a lot of people pulled out 01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:52.655 after DACA, how do you see that evolving? 01:07:52.688 --> 01:07:58.307 It's hard to know. Um 01:07:58.340 --> 01:08:00.526 the 01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:08.559 um 01:08:09.219 --> 01:08:15.077 on a policy side, like uh up to just based on results up to now, it seems 01:08:15.110 --> 01:08:20.675 like no one is proposing even the minimum things that are necessary for 01:08:20.708 --> 01:08:24.746 this to be a country that respects human rights and for this to be a 01:08:24.779 --> 01:08:30.357 country that respects working rights. Um So it's hard to know because 01:08:30.390 --> 01:08:34.866 there's no and, and, and this is where I think this, we can't look at 01:08:34.899 --> 01:08:41.756 immigration by itself um because we live in a country where black people 01:08:41.789 --> 01:08:47.756 have been citizens now for a very long time. Um So have native people, so 01:08:47.789 --> 01:08:53.986 have lots of um Mexicans and Hispanic people um and poor white people and 01:08:54.019 --> 01:08:57.745 none of their human rights are recognized and we're, and, and we're still 01:08:57.778 --> 01:09:01.785 a country that pursues genocidal policies both within and outside of our 01:09:01.818 --> 01:09:07.915 national borders. So it's like, how do we solve it for justice? I don't 01:09:07.948 --> 01:09:11.546 know, it seems like the end result is going to be some kind of 01:09:11.579 --> 01:09:14.116 Machiavellian 01:09:14.149 --> 01:09:18.996 negotiation and compromise that puts a lot of really terrible things into 01:09:19.029 --> 01:09:23.594 law and leaves a lot of work to do. 01:09:23.627 --> 01:09:29.495 Have you been, like you said, you've seen the consequences in your 01:09:29.528 --> 01:09:33.075 community? Could you, have you been involved with people who have been 01:09:33.108 --> 01:09:41.035 personally affected by these policies, the good ones like DACA. Yeah, I 01:09:41.068 --> 01:09:46.165 mean, uh, one of my best friends DACA is just coming through now because 01:09:46.198 --> 01:09:49.785 he had some complications and it took him this, this many years to get it 01:09:49.818 --> 01:09:56.006 since it was passed originally. And that changes everything, um, 01:09:56.039 --> 01:09:59.737 in terms of the ability to get work, the ability to get work that's paid 01:09:59.770 --> 01:10:04.555 what he deserves, um, his mobility, his ability to be here instead of 01:10:04.588 --> 01:10:09.937 having having to follow the work around um on a lot of levels, even some 01:10:09.970 --> 01:10:15.647 of Obama's administrative changes before DACA, in terms of being able to 01:10:15.680 --> 01:10:21.326 request your permit on family basis or on um extreme hardship basis before 01:10:21.359 --> 01:10:24.147 you had to leave the country instead of leaving the country requesting a 01:10:24.180 --> 01:10:29.385 permit and then waiting 10 years um that change my family has been able to 01:10:29.418 --> 01:10:33.796 , that's why we are documented as a family now is because we were my 01:10:33.829 --> 01:10:37.567 family members were able to on the basis of extreme hardship for their 01:10:37.600 --> 01:10:43.326 citizen family, ask for a permit, get it approved and then go back and 01:10:43.359 --> 01:10:47.726 have their final interview instead of going back and waiting years and 01:10:47.759 --> 01:10:51.765 years and years before they saw their kids again. So those things are real 01:10:51.798 --> 01:10:55.885 and like, and that's why we can't deny them is because they, it, it 01:10:55.918 --> 01:11:01.845 changed, you know, I mean, it changes things and they really do. So yeah, 01:11:01.878 --> 01:11:08.567 so you see it as, as possibly um positively evolving and then in your 01:11:08.600 --> 01:11:13.607 opinion. Keep pushing locally. Yeah. Well, again, I think that whatever 01:11:13.640 --> 01:11:16.666 happens on a national level, there's gonna be these things that are 01:11:16.699 --> 01:11:21.425 concessions. They're going to make life easier for some chunks of people. 01:11:21.458 --> 01:11:24.237 And it's going to be important to recognize how life has changed for 01:11:24.270 --> 01:11:29.156 those people. But they're going to, at the same time implement 01:11:29.189 --> 01:11:33.406 big areas of law that are still continuing to do really bad things. Um, 01:11:33.439 --> 01:11:36.746 Like right now with the DACA that was implemented, we see that the pri uh 01:11:36.779 --> 01:11:42.397 the new enforcement priorities, uh the new pe that Obama put into, into 01:11:42.430 --> 01:11:46.937 place that supposedly refocuses um deportation and detention on people who 01:11:46.970 --> 01:11:52.196 are like high criminal priorities. Um This does things like giving ice a 01:11:52.229 --> 01:11:56.366 reason to keep Nicole Hernandez Polanco in detention. They say that under 01:11:56.399 --> 01:12:00.656 the new policy, she because she was deported once as a minor who is 01:12:00.689 --> 01:12:06.166 seeking political asylum um is now a priority for detention despite having 01:12:06.199 --> 01:12:12.246 no criminal record. So it is good because 01:12:12.279 --> 01:12:16.595 my friends and family have documentation now and are able to work. It is 01:12:16.628 --> 01:12:22.675 bad because um there was no intent to solve anything. It was just an 01:12:22.708 --> 01:12:27.156 intent to give something so that people would stop complaining. Um It 01:12:27.189 --> 01:12:30.296 would, it was an intention to, to give a little bit, give a concession so 01:12:30.329 --> 01:12:34.006 that people would not push so hard. So we have to accept the victories 01:12:34.039 --> 01:12:38.496 that we get and we have to keep pushing. Ok. Well, thank you so much for 01:12:38.529 --> 01:12:44.509 this interview, Jonathan. Um Thank you for answering my questions.