WEBVTT

00:00:00.990 --> 00:00:06.276
 This is Paul Hart and Jennifer Sweeney of Arizona State University

00:00:06.309 --> 00:00:13.597
interviewing Leslie James in Flagstaff
on August 21st of 2019, Leslie.

00:00:13.630 --> 00:00:17.556
Thanks so much for interviewing with
us today. Well, thank you for asking

00:00:17.589 --> 00:00:21.887
me. You bet. Um Let's start out by you
telling us the positions that

00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:26.125
you've held in uh the Adaptive
Management Program, the years that you've

00:00:26.158 --> 00:00:32.207
been involved and the interests that
you represent? Ok. Um I started with

00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:37.186
the Adaptive Management Work Group as
a, as a designated representative,

00:00:37.219 --> 00:00:41.686
uh an AMW member in 1999

00:00:41.719 --> 00:00:47.896
representing one of the two seats of
power customers or entities

00:00:47.929 --> 00:00:53.606
representing purchasers of power from
Glen Canyon Dam. And I've been

00:00:53.639 --> 00:00:58.815
reappointed to that position
periodically uh whenever the appointments

00:00:58.848 --> 00:01:03.217
have come back up since that time. So
since 1999 what were those

00:01:03.250 --> 00:01:08.156
organizations that the Colorado River
Energy Distributors Association or

00:01:08.189 --> 00:01:16.189
Creta Creta is a not for profit
organization that represents the majority

00:01:16.549 --> 00:01:20.956
of the firm Electric Service customers
of the Colorado River Storage

00:01:20.989 --> 00:01:27.176
Project. So our, our members are all
not for profit entities. They are all

00:01:27.209 --> 00:01:31.757
uh they all have contracts with the
Western area Power Administration and

00:01:31.790 --> 00:01:36.385
allocations from the Colorado River
storage project. And was there a

00:01:36.418 --> 00:01:40.096
second organization that you said that
you were also involved in that

00:01:40.129 --> 00:01:45.257
besides Creta? No, I've been the Creta
executive director since June of

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1998. So I came on to AM wig shortly
after the next reappointment time.

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And you're still serving in that and
I'm still serving in that capacity,

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same job 21 years. So you've been
involved since 1999. That's a good long

00:02:01.219 --> 00:02:04.977
time with the Glen Canyon Adaptive
Management Program. Um Can you talk

00:02:05.010 --> 00:02:10.596
about the main changes that you've
seen in the program over that long

00:02:10.629 --> 00:02:14.886
period of time? How did it start out?
And how did it evolve over time and

00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:20.636
your participation in it? The main
changes I've seen when I first started

00:02:20.669 --> 00:02:28.669
, the program was primarily managed by
the Bureau of Reclamation. Um At

00:02:28.909 --> 00:02:36.909
that time, the science was uh provided
through the US GS Grand Canyon

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Monitoring and Research Center, but
reclamation was where the program was

00:02:42.629 --> 00:02:48.495
housed. And uh you know, I don't
recall the year. It was probably early

00:02:48.528 --> 00:02:56.528
two thousands. Uh then Assistant
Secretary of Water and Science, I can't

00:02:57.830 --> 00:03:03.686
remember his name. Um brought the
question of where the program should be

00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:09.835
housed to the AM wig. And I, I
remember the meeting, we were sitting in a

00:03:09.868 --> 00:03:16.036
hotel conference room in Phoenix and
the question came up, should the

00:03:16.069 --> 00:03:20.396
Adaptive Management work group stay
underneath reclamation or should it

00:03:20.429 --> 00:03:25.245
move to USGS? Grand Canyon Monitoring
and Research Center. There was quite

00:03:25.278 --> 00:03:32.517
a, quite a bit of discussion as I can
recall. And uh

00:03:32.550 --> 00:03:36.866
someone asked the question, well,
where does the funding come from for the

00:03:36.899 --> 00:03:43.696
program? And the, the response was the
funding is almost solely from CRSP

00:03:43.729 --> 00:03:50.946
power revenues. And so his name was
Mark, I'll think of it. Um So he

00:03:50.979 --> 00:03:55.446
called for the question and said, uh
what do people think about leaving it

00:03:55.479 --> 00:04:00.866
uh with reclamation or moving it? And
the vote came down to leaving it

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with reclamation. And shortly, you
know, I don't recall what month that

00:04:06.219 --> 00:04:12.245
was exactly. But shortly thereafter,
and just before he left office, he

00:04:12.278 --> 00:04:16.276
issued a memo transferring it to us
GSGCRC.

00:04:16.309 --> 00:04:21.055
So that underscored uh one of the
roles of the adaptive management work

00:04:21.088 --> 00:04:26.265
group and that is not, it is not a
decision making body, it is a body that

00:04:26.298 --> 00:04:31.645
is intended to make recommendations to
the Secretary of the Interior. So

00:04:31.678 --> 00:04:36.387
that's a prime example. There, there
was another example at 1.2 where

00:04:36.420 --> 00:04:41.726
there was a vote to do a high flow
experiment. And it was way before the

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high flow experimental protocol and um
the vote was to not do it and

00:04:47.189 --> 00:04:51.416
interior decided to do it. And that
was in a Republican administration. So

00:04:51.449 --> 00:04:57.257
, you know, I uh partisan politics
aside, you know, it, it just kind of

00:04:57.290 --> 00:05:02.645
underscores that, yeah, the secretary
has an obligation under all of the

00:05:02.678 --> 00:05:07.197
um underpinning laws, uh the wall of
the river and everything else to do

00:05:07.230 --> 00:05:11.916
certain things with this dam and with
this program and we are an advisory

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committee. Have you noticed that there
are different periods in which the

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am wig seems to have more influence
and the secretary is more deferential

00:05:21.588 --> 00:05:27.437
to its recommendations versus times in
which the secretary is more hands

00:05:27.470 --> 00:05:31.825
on directive and am wig is more
advisory.

00:05:31.858 --> 00:05:36.187
I don't know if it's hands on. Well, I
think it's more or less

00:05:36.220 --> 00:05:44.220
participative, maybe not so directive,
but um with the, you know, I'm

00:05:44.269 --> 00:05:48.976
trying to remember how many different
secretaries designees I've kind of

00:05:49.009 --> 00:05:55.257
lived through. Uh the first one I
recall was Steve Magnusson. Uh We had

00:05:55.290 --> 00:06:02.325
Mark Limbaugh, we had Brenda Berman.
Um

00:06:02.358 --> 00:06:06.856
We had Mike,

00:06:06.889 --> 00:06:14.467
he was a, he was a reclamation person,
not for very long. Um And really

00:06:14.500 --> 00:06:22.500
the biggest difference I think I saw
was after the 08 elections. Um uh

00:06:23.480 --> 00:06:30.836
Assistant Secretary Ann Castle became
more directly involved. And, you

00:06:30.869 --> 00:06:34.817
know, you, you heard some of that
today from discussion about guidance

00:06:34.850 --> 00:06:42.055
memos and the guidance memo that, that
she issued early on in her tenure,

00:06:42.088 --> 00:06:49.666
setting out her priorities. And um
that was a guidance memo that the

00:06:49.699 --> 00:06:55.745
program reclamation us GS all took to
heart and said, you know, Anne

00:06:55.778 --> 00:07:00.127
Castle's guidance is these are her top
priorities, these are her resource

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priorities. And um so I would say
during that period, there was more

00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:11.846
direct involvement from DC. And I, I
don't know that that's a good thing.

00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:15.106
I don't know that it's a bad thing. I
think it's a different, it's a

00:07:15.139 --> 00:07:22.786
different thing. Um, to a large degree
though, again, I think that,

00:07:22.819 --> 00:07:27.137
that the secretary needs to provide
some sideboards and provide some

00:07:27.170 --> 00:07:33.116
guidance. But if this is really
intended to be a federal advisory

00:07:33.149 --> 00:07:38.015
committee, then let it operate and let
it, let it truly reflect the

00:07:38.048 --> 00:07:42.317
interests that are outlined in the, in
the laws that establish it and the

00:07:42.350 --> 00:07:46.645
requirements that establish it, let it
kind of do its thing within reason

00:07:46.678 --> 00:07:52.096
, of course. And you know, the the
original budget and I think the

00:07:52.129 --> 00:07:59.437
original vision for the program was
fairly modest in the studies that were

00:07:59.470 --> 00:08:05.467
done prior to the first environmental
impact statement. Uh There was the

00:08:05.500 --> 00:08:12.296
Rod was finished in 1996 the 95 EIS
1996 Rod and that was under Secretary

00:08:12.329 --> 00:08:17.616
Babbitt. But I think there was there,
there were some, there was some anti

00:08:17.649 --> 00:08:21.205
anticipation that it was going to be
quite a fairly modest program maybe

00:08:21.238 --> 00:08:26.596
five or six people. And so, uh one of
the, you ask about one of the

00:08:26.629 --> 00:08:33.047
significant changes, one of the
changes came about in the 2001,

00:08:33.080 --> 00:08:37.596
either 2000 or 2001 appropriations
bill where there was some language

00:08:37.629 --> 00:08:42.407
included that established a cap on the
amount of power revenues that could

00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:49.356
be used to used to fund this program.
And, um, you know, there was, there

00:08:49.389 --> 00:08:54.096
was quite a bit of consternation from
some quarters, uh when that, when

00:08:54.129 --> 00:09:00.096
that legislation went through. But
likewise, um the agencies knew that

00:09:00.129 --> 00:09:06.537
that legislation was being proposed.
And um as I sat in a meeting where

00:09:06.570 --> 00:09:11.307
the Senate staffers sat, all sat us
all around and said, this is what

00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:16.616
we're proposing. I just wanna make
sure you all see this. So, um anyway,

00:09:16.649 --> 00:09:20.326
the funding cap, I think, especially
now with some of the challenges that

00:09:20.359 --> 00:09:26.467
we're seeing with federal budgets,
with omb directives and with limited

00:09:26.500 --> 00:09:29.736
funds everywhere. I think that that
was probably a pretty important thing

00:09:29.769 --> 00:09:34.287
that happened because at that point,
it was capped at $7.5 million per

00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:39.677
year adjusted for CP I. And it, it's
pretty clear on what the funds can be

00:09:39.710 --> 00:09:45.856
used for and it was intended to cover
the biological opinion and um nhp A

00:09:45.889 --> 00:09:51.557
cultural resources. So, you know, that
that was what 1819 years ago,

00:09:51.590 --> 00:09:58.307
almost 20 years ago and that was a big
change. It's up to about, is it 11

00:09:58.340 --> 00:10:05.037
, 11.3 million? And that's just
consumer price index inflation each year,

00:10:05.070 --> 00:10:10.846
that cap. So that cap is still in
place. Yes, interesting. Yes. So let's

00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:17.366
concentrate a little bit more on
hydropower and its role in the Adaptive

00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:21.047
Management Program because that's the
interest that you are sort of

00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:24.625
responsible for representing. Talk a
little bit about you know, from the

00:10:24.658 --> 00:10:30.525
early years on forward, how, how you
tried to bring hydropower interest to

00:10:30.558 --> 00:10:35.775
the table and how you negotiated with
other interest groups. Well, uh you

00:10:35.808 --> 00:10:42.145
know, prior, prior to my coming on the
AM wig, the 95 EIS and 96 Rod had

00:10:42.178 --> 00:10:49.706
been issued. Um the hydropower impact
from that rod was about a one third

00:10:49.739 --> 00:10:57.606
reduction in capacity. So it, so it
had already happened when I came in.

00:10:57.639 --> 00:11:04.765
And um you know, that was a pretty
robust process. I worked on it

00:11:04.798 --> 00:11:11.706
peripherally in my prior um employment
at Salt River project because when

00:11:11.739 --> 00:11:19.739
I was at SRP from 1995 to 1998 I was a
Creta board member for SRP. So

00:11:20.729 --> 00:11:24.375
that's how I got to know Creta was in
that capacity. But during those

00:11:24.408 --> 00:11:30.746
years that EIS was going on, um the,
the thinking of the Rod at the time

00:11:30.779 --> 00:11:36.255
was it was really primarily heavily
driven by sediment, sediment resources.

00:11:36.288 --> 00:11:40.125
Uh Certainly we had an endangered
species, but that was a, that was a

00:11:40.158 --> 00:11:47.486
primary key resource. And so hy with
hydropower being restricted, our

00:11:47.519 --> 00:11:51.686
thinking at the time was, well, we
have what we have, we have a record of

00:11:51.719 --> 00:11:56.297
decision. So let's just get in this
program and try to make sure that the

00:11:56.330 --> 00:12:02.895
monitoring is really capturing how the
the rod flows are affecting

00:12:02.928 --> 00:12:07.407
resources. Are they doing? What people
thought in the analysis? Are they

00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:13.635
not? And you know, are there ways to,
to try to gain back some of that

00:12:13.668 --> 00:12:18.537
lost capacity within the existing
constraints. So that really has been if

00:12:18.570 --> 00:12:24.936
, if you look at the Creta mission
envision and that is to preserve and

00:12:24.969 --> 00:12:29.826
enhance the availability and
affordability

00:12:29.859 --> 00:12:32.976
of the resources of the Colorado River
storage project in an

00:12:33.009 --> 00:12:38.217
environmentally sound way, that's our
mission. So I I bring that to my

00:12:38.250 --> 00:12:42.736
role in Am wick and um you know, it
really is trying to ensure that the

00:12:42.769 --> 00:12:50.236
sound, the science is sound is
appropriate. So since I've been in Am Wig,

00:12:50.269 --> 00:12:58.269
Creta has funded biologist for a
while, we funded a geo geo Mpho Bob

00:12:58.308 --> 00:13:05.775
Messiter to study sediment flow. Yeah.
Yeah. And um we had a cultural

00:13:05.808 --> 00:13:11.496
resources expert, Kurt Donsky worked
for Creta for six years. Really? Yes

00:13:11.529 --> 00:13:15.596
, because we, we really wanted to be
sure that we had the technical

00:13:15.629 --> 00:13:20.375
capability and advice from the
cultural folks as the programmatic

00:13:20.408 --> 00:13:26.076
agreement and those things were going
on. So we, we as an organization are

00:13:26.109 --> 00:13:31.037
very small, but we have spent uh the
significant portion of our budget

00:13:31.070 --> 00:13:35.446
trying to ensure that we have, we have
technical support and support to

00:13:35.479 --> 00:13:41.606
help the program. It's not always
welcome, but it's there, it's there. So

00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:49.037
um that's been really my objective is
to hopefully educate people about

00:13:49.070 --> 00:13:54.385
where does this hydropower go? Why is
it marketed the way it's marketed?

00:13:54.418 --> 00:13:58.677
Who are the customers? And I'm still
haven't been quite as successful as

00:13:58.710 --> 00:14:04.547
I'd like to be with the tribes because
in, in the year 2004,

00:14:04.580 --> 00:14:10.486
the resource was up for a new
marketing plan and we supported all of the

00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:16.726
CRSP customers taking a 7% reduction
in their allocations to create a

00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:22.116
resource pool for tribes to ensure
that all the tribes could have some of

00:14:22.149 --> 00:14:28.116
this CRSP resource allocation of an
allocation of hydropower. So in 2004,

00:14:28.149 --> 00:14:36.149
all of our my members contracts were
redone. There was a 7% pool and 53

00:14:36.558 --> 00:14:43.265
tribes now had an allocation of CRSP.
Some already did a couple uh already

00:14:43.298 --> 00:14:47.996
did earlier Navajo Tribal Utility
Authority. But in 2004, you know, we

00:14:48.029 --> 00:14:53.677
were very supportive of that. I think
the the struggle here is most of the

00:14:53.710 --> 00:14:58.736
folks, the tribal folks in this forum
are probably not the ones that deal

00:14:58.769 --> 00:15:04.275
with their power resources and their,
their contracts with their providers

00:15:04.308 --> 00:15:11.316
and their transmission contracts. So
we keep trying to say um as a tribe,

00:15:11.349 --> 00:15:14.196
you should have the same concerns we
have about availability and

00:15:14.229 --> 00:15:18.456
affordability because you're, you're
the same customers as we are and the

00:15:18.489 --> 00:15:23.467
contracts are the same. I'm curious to
know you said that um with the

00:15:23.500 --> 00:15:28.846
record of decision in 1996 they had
already decided to reduce the amount

00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:34.746
of hydro power generation capacity and
Glen can dam by about a third since

00:15:34.779 --> 00:15:38.936
then. Has it been reduced further in
your view or is it stayed about the

00:15:38.969 --> 00:15:43.336
same or has it gone back up? Good
question. No, it's been reduced further

00:15:43.369 --> 00:15:50.116
with the temp es and record of
decision. Uh The preferred the selected

00:15:50.149 --> 00:15:57.015
alternative further reduced that let
me put it in dollars and cents. There

00:15:57.048 --> 00:16:02.275
was a study that looked at what did
that one third translate to? Um Argon

00:16:02.308 --> 00:16:07.427
did that study and they valued it at
about $50 million per year. Annual

00:16:07.460 --> 00:16:14.645
impact. That was from the 96 Rod, the
temp uh Rod Eis and Rod. Um

00:16:14.678 --> 00:16:20.236
valuation of reduction or negative
impact to hydropower is 100 and $4

00:16:20.269 --> 00:16:26.346
million. But that's over the 20 year
period. And that's derived from

00:16:26.379 --> 00:16:30.547
restrictions and how the dam is
operated that make it difficult for the

00:16:30.580 --> 00:16:37.467
dam to optimize its operation to
maximize revenue. Is that about right? Or

00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:42.346
not, not quite the very, the last two
words. And that's an education that

00:16:42.379 --> 00:16:47.395
I haven't been successful at either
because a lot of times these impacts

00:16:47.428 --> 00:16:55.316
are characterized as revenue, what
they really are is less cost expended.

00:16:55.349 --> 00:17:01.025
So Wap A has long term 40 year
contracts with each of its CRSP customers,

00:17:01.058 --> 00:17:07.387
including all the tribes. They
provided allocations to everyone. If the

00:17:07.420 --> 00:17:11.476
total integrated projects of the
Colorado River storage project aren't

00:17:11.509 --> 00:17:17.467
able to meet those commitments or meet
them in a time in the time it's

00:17:17.500 --> 00:17:23.717
needed, they can always meet the
quantity. It's just when the timing, but

00:17:23.750 --> 00:17:27.785
when they don't W A has to go out on
the market and purchase replacement

00:17:27.818 --> 00:17:33.785
power. So when the operations get
changed and restricted, they have to buy

00:17:33.818 --> 00:17:38.516
more replacement power and that, so
it's more expensive. It will, it will.

00:17:38.549 --> 00:17:43.746
Well, you know, we heard a lot today
about wind but generally at the time

00:17:43.779 --> 00:17:48.305
they're having to buy it is more
expensive. So it isn't a revenue

00:17:48.338 --> 00:17:54.726
maximization. It's a and of trying to
avoid cost, avoidance. Thank you. Ok.

00:17:54.759 --> 00:17:58.075
Thanks for that. And that's a very,
and that's a hard concept because the

00:17:58.108 --> 00:18:02.325
darn, you know, I cringe whenever I
hear revenues, at least we haven't

00:18:02.358 --> 00:18:09.967
heard profits so much anymore but
revenue. Yeah. Yeah. So um uh continuing

00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:16.686
along the same lines, what other um
issues related to um hydropower and

00:18:16.719 --> 00:18:21.166
its relationship with the rest of the
Glen Canyon Dam Adaptive Management

00:18:21.199 --> 00:18:26.295
program objectives. What other issues
have you worked on? Uh over the

00:18:26.328 --> 00:18:31.186
years that you've been involved
related to hydropower or others in the

00:18:31.219 --> 00:18:36.387
program? Other? OK. Um I participated
in, we, we had tried to have kind of

00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:38.426
a robust

00:18:38.459 --> 00:18:44.065
public poag. I got have to get the
acronym, public outreach ad hoc group,

00:18:44.098 --> 00:18:49.585
the P A and the po A um did a lot of
did really some good work. Um We

00:18:49.618 --> 00:18:54.016
produced some white papers talking
about each of the resources. I think

00:18:54.049 --> 00:18:58.815
they're still out and around. What are
each of the resources, all the

00:18:58.848 --> 00:19:03.825
downstream resources? OK. Let me, let
me count the ways how many

00:19:03.858 --> 00:19:07.357
objectives are in L temp.

00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:15.390
So we have endangered fish, native
fish and other species,

00:19:18.959 --> 00:19:26.206
recreation, recreation, hydropower,
cultural resources. You know, if I

00:19:26.239 --> 00:19:30.897
think back to the desired future
conditions, there were 44 cultural

00:19:30.930 --> 00:19:33.996
resources, hydropower

00:19:34.029 --> 00:19:39.186
ecosystem and what was the other
wilderness?

00:19:39.219 --> 00:19:45.486
No. And interestingly, and this is
where there's been a, a debate is

00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:49.986
sediment, a resource. That's why I
thought you, I thought you were trying

00:19:50.019 --> 00:19:58.019
to catch me on that one. Sediment in,
in my humble opinion of sediment is

00:19:58.140 --> 00:20:03.815
sediment is a resource, but it is not
an objective, an objective should be

00:20:03.848 --> 00:20:08.016
what is sediment used for or used to
benefit. And that's where in the

00:20:08.049 --> 00:20:14.847
desired future conditions, year and a
half long process. That group um

00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:20.176
made that determination, that sediment
was not in and of itself a resource.

00:20:20.209 --> 00:20:24.206
It's what you do with it. When did you
work on those desired? OK. That

00:20:24.239 --> 00:20:28.996
was a, that was a good process that
there is a lot of documentation out

00:20:29.029 --> 00:20:34.795
there. This was secretary,

00:20:34.828 --> 00:20:41.686
it was an castle. So Secretary
Salazar. Yeah. Um The question came up,

00:20:41.719 --> 00:20:46.166
what is this pro what are the desired
future conditions of this program?

00:20:46.199 --> 00:20:51.887
Where do you wanna be when you grow
up? And so uh they hired a facilitator

00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:56.575
and I don't even ask me his name
because I can't remember. But um for

00:20:56.608 --> 00:21:03.877
about a year and a half, I think we
worked in groups to establish a set of

00:21:03.910 --> 00:21:09.756
desired future conditions for the
resources and it was a hard, it, it was

00:21:09.789 --> 00:21:15.055
a very, very hard um process because
we had a lot of different interests.

00:21:15.088 --> 00:21:20.825
But the end result was a report and
recommendation that was adopted by

00:21:20.858 --> 00:21:26.795
Secretary Salazar. And it came up. Um
the I can remember the dates. It was

00:21:26.828 --> 00:21:33.916
about the 2010, 2010. Uh The report
came up was recommended to the

00:21:33.949 --> 00:21:37.607
secretary and he adopted it.

00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:44.377
What the assistant Secretary Castle
then said is OK, we now know what the

00:21:44.410 --> 00:21:49.186
desired future conditions are. We need
to put metrics to those. How do you

00:21:49.219 --> 00:21:53.717
know when you, when you've achieved
it? And that's exactly the question

00:21:53.750 --> 00:21:57.776
we're starting, we're facing again
today at that time though, the thinking

00:21:57.809 --> 00:22:04.897
was temp, the l temp process would
establish those metrics and it didn't

00:22:04.930 --> 00:22:10.805
quite get there but that the desired
future conditions and, and our, uh

00:22:10.838 --> 00:22:16.176
you know, with that type of a
facilitated process, it was uh it was, it

00:22:16.209 --> 00:22:20.656
was pretty good. And for some of those
resources, they started getting

00:22:20.689 --> 00:22:26.196
into metrics like how many trout, how
many Humpback chub? Um Hydropower,

00:22:26.229 --> 00:22:32.486
we had our metrics kind of down
because it's much easier. And uh but some

00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:37.285
of the other resources, how many and
where, what beaches, how many and

00:22:37.318 --> 00:22:42.065
where, you know, vegetation things.
But there's a real, there's a very,

00:22:42.098 --> 00:22:47.476
very good report that went up to the
secretary, Larry Stevens and George

00:22:47.509 --> 00:22:52.996
Khan who was with Colorado River
Commission were the chairs of that

00:22:53.029 --> 00:22:57.597
desired future conditions, ad hoc and
wrote up the report. So that that

00:22:57.630 --> 00:23:02.305
would be, uh that's a very important
document. We'll, we'll go back and,

00:23:02.338 --> 00:23:05.986
and take a look at it. We, we got to
interview Larry Stevens and a lot of

00:23:06.019 --> 00:23:11.085
other people that you've mentioned
we've interviewed. So, uh um let me ask

00:23:11.118 --> 00:23:15.585
you a little bit about um this desired
future conditions document and the

00:23:15.618 --> 00:23:22.246
resources. I, I find this interesting,
sometimes one or more resources are

00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:29.486
compatible in a vision of a desired
future and sometimes some resources

00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:36.276
have conflicting desired futures. How
which resources did hydropower were

00:23:36.309 --> 00:23:41.156
hydropower? Visions of a future able
to ally with? And which ones were you

00:23:41.189 --> 00:23:47.956
more in conflict with? Um I I, and
that's been very interesting because um

00:23:47.989 --> 00:23:55.085
from work that was done in the five
year

00:23:55.118 --> 00:24:02.357
fall steady flow experiments that Bill
Pine at all worked on looking at

00:24:02.390 --> 00:24:06.946
Humpback Chub. Um They, they did a
five year experiment where they steady

00:24:06.979 --> 00:24:14.979
flowed the river during the fall
months. The hypothesis being

00:24:16.568 --> 00:24:22.367
we should steady the flows to preserve
sediment because sediment is

00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:30.400
important for backwaters, which are
important for Humpback Chub.

00:24:30.890 --> 00:24:36.467
The findings ultimately of that five
year study were Humpback chub don't

00:24:36.500 --> 00:24:44.500
select for backwaters. They prefer
other areas. And in fact, if they do

00:24:45.209 --> 00:24:53.209
use backwaters, they get eaten. So
right, there was um there was one of

00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:59.467
the lights went on things because
early on high flow experiments were

00:24:59.500 --> 00:25:06.706
primarily justified to benefit
endangered species. And after that study,

00:25:06.739 --> 00:25:14.739
it's like, mm, no, are we? No? So the
next round of um arguments

00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:19.916
supporting high flow experiments, then
we're getting to cultural and

00:25:19.949 --> 00:25:26.867
aeolian transport but not so much the
endangered species debate. So what

00:25:26.900 --> 00:25:31.887
went on there? And also in 2005 and
six, there was an, a little bit of an

00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:39.920
experiment done to agitate to increase
flows to um disadvantage trout. And

00:25:40.430 --> 00:25:44.377
that's where you're starting to see
more about trout flows. So between

00:25:44.410 --> 00:25:49.706
those two studies, what that basically
said is at least we think

00:25:49.739 --> 00:25:55.785
fluctuations are good for humpback for
the endangered species because they

00:25:55.818 --> 00:26:03.016
can be used to disadvantage the
predators and competitors. So from a, from

00:26:03.049 --> 00:26:07.377
a in fact, I think if you looked at
the analysis that was done for the

00:26:07.410 --> 00:26:12.467
temp and for the swing waiting
process, has anybody talked to you about

00:26:12.500 --> 00:26:18.276
the swing waiting process? No. OK. I I
will in a sec because that was I

00:26:18.309 --> 00:26:24.617
important. There's documentation on
that. Um Hydropower fluctuations that

00:26:24.650 --> 00:26:29.127
are good for hydropower can also be
good for endangered species. And that

00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:33.766
was, that's very important to us
hydropower.

00:26:33.799 --> 00:26:38.887
And I think here's another light that
has gone on over time. Operations

00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:45.406
for hydropower fluctuations tend to
not be good or complementary for

00:26:45.439 --> 00:26:53.166
sediment, but it's, it's temporary
because with hfes coming in, you can

00:26:53.199 --> 00:26:57.357
redeposit the sediment park it up
there. Fluctuations don't get up that

00:26:57.390 --> 00:27:04.976
high where the science is showing us
now is volumes are more impacting on

00:27:05.009 --> 00:27:08.825
sediment, not fluctuations.

00:27:08.858 --> 00:27:14.285
So when and that became apparent when
the equalization flows occurred in

00:27:14.318 --> 00:27:19.857
2012 or whatever, because of the law,
because of the operating criteria,

00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:24.776
they had to do equalization. Those
were flat and steady. They killed us,

00:27:24.809 --> 00:27:29.736
they killed hydro power water
downstream to lake Mead. Yeah. So when

00:27:29.769 --> 00:27:33.946
you're looking at sediment impacts,
you can't just say hydropower is

00:27:33.979 --> 00:27:39.795
always button heads against sediment
because it isn't, it's volumes and

00:27:39.828 --> 00:27:43.877
the volumes are n not dictated by
hydropower needs. The volumes are

00:27:43.910 --> 00:27:47.986
dictated by compact requirements.

00:27:48.019 --> 00:27:53.217
So, you know, in, in an opportunity to
look at when we're starting to look

00:27:53.250 --> 00:27:56.795
at what are potential experiments,

00:27:56.828 --> 00:28:02.186
I would like to see, let's do some
more fluctuations and let's be sure and

00:28:02.219 --> 00:28:09.347
monitor that sediment. And let's see
if an 8000 cap really does the damage

00:28:09.380 --> 00:28:17.380
or anything above 8000 damages. What
the old 1987 study said it would 8000

00:28:17.630 --> 00:28:21.347
cubic feet per second. Yeah. Yeah. And
that's the cap, that's a cap on

00:28:21.380 --> 00:28:26.766
operations and that's very detrimental
to hydropower, especially in summer

00:28:26.799 --> 00:28:33.045
months because you may and especially
in low low volume months because

00:28:33.078 --> 00:28:36.795
you're just hitting up, you're hitting
this cap and your demands are up

00:28:36.828 --> 00:28:42.006
here, your summer peak demands. So, uh
I would, you know, in a perfect

00:28:42.039 --> 00:28:47.156
world, I would love to see someone
dust off the bishop study from 1987

00:28:47.189 --> 00:28:53.545
that was cited in El temp that in fact
used 10,000 CFS as its metric, not

00:28:53.578 --> 00:29:00.256
eight and see exactly what it does,
what it does to the system. Uh The

00:29:00.289 --> 00:29:05.617
safety was another issue. And just
kind of 50 of what of rafters,

00:29:05.650 --> 00:29:10.107
recreationists that fluctuation is
difficult on people camping on a beach

00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:15.325
? But is there a difference between
eight and 10? I don't know that. How

00:29:15.358 --> 00:29:19.496
do you know that till you try it?
Well, that sounds like a perfect example.

00:29:19.529 --> 00:29:23.335
Is a management, right? Absolutely.
You have a hypothesis, you do an

00:29:23.368 --> 00:29:28.256
experiment, you learn and then you
adapt. That's exactly right. Management.

00:29:28.289 --> 00:29:34.785
And you know, we tried very, very hard
to get an experiment included in L

00:29:34.818 --> 00:29:40.035
temp that would just do that and that
would challenge what is being cited

00:29:40.068 --> 00:29:45.206
as the best available science, which
is a 1987 study that used 10,000 CFS

00:29:45.239 --> 00:29:50.035
, not eight. And that's the science
that was cited for keeping the 8000

00:29:50.068 --> 00:29:56.847
cap and because it was a cap, the 96
rod too, so it became a regulatory

00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:03.075
cap because it was part of the record
of decision. OK. So do you feel like

00:30:03.108 --> 00:30:06.617
um OK,

00:30:06.650 --> 00:30:12.617
that hydropower interests have been a
full and fair voice at the table

00:30:12.650 --> 00:30:17.097
that you get listened to? I know in
some of our interviews with tribal

00:30:17.130 --> 00:30:22.627
representatives, they expressed
concerns about how their perspectives are

00:30:22.660 --> 00:30:29.916
not, you know, um accepted as readily
as others. How do you feel hydra

00:30:29.949 --> 00:30:34.776
power's role has been at the table?

00:30:34.809 --> 00:30:39.785
You know, I don't feel like we're
precluded from,

00:30:39.818 --> 00:30:46.217
I'm trying to, trying to comment like
I have been on. Why don't we do some

00:30:46.250 --> 00:30:50.476
experiments here or there or whatever?
I, I think though that and I'm glad

00:30:50.509 --> 00:30:58.387
to see over years because years ago
there was a common theme that the do I

00:30:58.420 --> 00:31:04.166
agencies only listen to the States and
the power providers. Uh And that

00:31:04.199 --> 00:31:08.367
was, that was pretty commonly held.
And for the life of me, I would always

00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:16.400
say, why would you think that our
resources cut by a third? Um In L temp,

00:31:17.900 --> 00:31:24.166
we are the only resource that is
negatively affected by the preferred

00:31:24.199 --> 00:31:29.107
alternative. If you look at all the
objectives in the L temp, we are the

00:31:29.140 --> 00:31:32.926
only ones that aren't benefited.

00:31:32.959 --> 00:31:39.746
So let me talk for. So, uh you know, I
think, and it may just be lack of

00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:43.467
understanding and I, I think like I
said, we've really, really tried hard

00:31:43.500 --> 00:31:49.367
to help educate about, we are not
enrons, we are, you know, this resource

00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:53.325
has to go to the nonprofits and, you
know, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

00:31:53.358 --> 00:31:57.585
So I think there's been a better,
better understanding of that role, I

00:31:57.618 --> 00:32:03.516
hope um on the other members, the
other members and other stakeholders.

00:32:03.549 --> 00:32:08.387
Yeah. Yeah. There, there may still be,
you know, and even there have been

00:32:08.420 --> 00:32:15.285
times when even we've had different
views from w A, we aren't W A, we are

00:32:15.318 --> 00:32:21.325
utilities that provide resources to
retail customers. They aren't w a is a

00:32:21.358 --> 00:32:29.358
wholesaler. So, yeah, I, I hope that
we've tried to distinguish ourselves.

00:32:29.469 --> 00:32:33.226
We aren't a federal agency and we
aren't w a, so we do have kind of a

00:32:33.259 --> 00:32:37.946
different voice and, uh, it was pretty
telling after el temp, one of the

00:32:37.979 --> 00:32:43.825
tribal reps said to me. Now, you know
how we feel?

00:32:43.858 --> 00:32:50.666
Interesting. Yeah, because again,
we've been cut by a third plus more and

00:32:50.699 --> 00:32:56.706
we're the only resource uh through
this analysis that take a hit. So let

00:32:56.739 --> 00:32:59.387
me tell you for a second about swing
waiting because I think that's an

00:32:59.420 --> 00:33:03.986
important piece. That's an important
and an interesting

00:33:04.019 --> 00:33:11.055
uh aspect of this program. I think it
was maybe in 20 12 or 13, hard to

00:33:11.088 --> 00:33:16.166
know at the beginning of am wig. The
department decided that they wanted

00:33:16.199 --> 00:33:24.199
to do a structured decision making
process or swing waiting. They brought

00:33:24.670 --> 00:33:32.670
in a guy from uh us GS back in
Virginia or wherever. And we, all the

00:33:32.890 --> 00:33:39.976
stakeholders sat in a room for maybe
two days. And first we learned, we

00:33:40.009 --> 00:33:43.696
had scientists all talk to us about
the resources and the state state of

00:33:43.729 --> 00:33:49.246
play of the resources. And, and then
they talked to us about potential

00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:54.897
alternatives, the l temp alternatives.
In fact, they educated us on all

00:33:54.930 --> 00:33:59.986
six. I think maybe five and what those
alternatives were hypothesized to

00:34:00.019 --> 00:34:05.617
do. Then all of the participants

00:34:05.650 --> 00:34:09.057
were asked to swing weight.

00:34:09.090 --> 00:34:15.396
Um And it was a really hard to
understand, complicated kind of process,

00:34:15.429 --> 00:34:23.429
but it was attempted to elicit
stakeholder values on uh how these um L

00:34:24.458 --> 00:34:29.896
temp alternatives would perform and
how the stakeholders value all of the

00:34:29.929 --> 00:34:35.905
resources based on how the L temp
alternatives would perform. So, after

00:34:35.938 --> 00:34:42.365
learning and listening, uh we did
filled out all of our forms and it

00:34:42.398 --> 00:34:47.497
really was very, very complicated. You
had to uh I still, I could still

00:34:47.530 --> 00:34:52.956
couldn't replicate it, but it's all,
it's all documented. And

00:34:52.989 --> 00:34:57.345
the interesting thing that came back.
Uh Some of the part participants

00:34:57.378 --> 00:35:02.106
were skittish about it because it was
how is this gonna be used in NL temp

00:35:02.139 --> 00:35:05.865
? Are you gonna make decisions based
on that? And you know, we were

00:35:05.898 --> 00:35:10.155
assured this is just to inform we're
not making decisions, we're just

00:35:10.188 --> 00:35:18.188
trying to determine values. So the
results came back the next day and

00:35:19.958 --> 00:35:27.958
irony of Ironies Alternative B which
was the Hydropower Alternative scored

00:35:28.039 --> 00:35:36.039
the highest um among all stakeholders
expressing interesting, but you look

00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:40.175
at it, it's hard to interpret the
table. I went back and looked at it

00:35:40.208 --> 00:35:43.727
because I've been trying to clean
through my files on some things. But

00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:47.796
it's a fascinating process to look, to
look at the various charts and

00:35:47.829 --> 00:35:52.115
graphs that they produced. And again,
it's another piece of information.

00:35:52.148 --> 00:35:56.566
So I think structure decision analysis
maybe became a, an appendix or

00:35:56.599 --> 00:36:02.336
something in temp but that report and
all that stuff out there. So another

00:36:02.369 --> 00:36:07.086
, another interesting when, what made
me think of that is your question

00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:12.385
about how the, how the different
resources conflict or are compatible

00:36:12.418 --> 00:36:17.425
because the, the traditional conflict
at this table is sediment and

00:36:17.458 --> 00:36:22.046
hydropower. You know, it, it's just
kind of an assumed thing, but I think

00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:27.856
we're starting to get there where it
isn't, it isn't the fluctuations and

00:36:27.889 --> 00:36:34.836
following lo it's volumes and volumes
are not dictated by hydropower

00:36:34.869 --> 00:36:40.635
contracts, they're dictated by law of
the river. Now, some of the earliest

00:36:40.668 --> 00:36:45.086
complaints about the impacts of Glen
Canyon dam were from the river

00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:49.595
rafting community about those
fluctuations leaving them high and dry in

00:36:49.628 --> 00:36:56.126
the morning or having floods come into
camp in the evening. And that

00:36:56.159 --> 00:37:03.796
probably continues to be a difficult
to reconcile set of values. I would

00:37:03.829 --> 00:37:09.686
imagine it may be if the operations
did that. But since modified low

00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:14.506
fluctuating flows, it has not been a
problem. It has been a problem. So

00:37:14.539 --> 00:37:18.506
that's why I'm saying it would be very
interesting to dig out the 87 study

00:37:18.539 --> 00:37:25.486
bishop that, that assessed the views
of the recreation, the rafters and

00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:31.876
the fishermen because look what
operations were back in those days.

00:37:31.909 --> 00:37:38.106
1983 you know, the highest highest
releases ever. All of that was pre Rod

00:37:38.139 --> 00:37:46.139
, pre, pre initial Pis and Rod. So
perspectives of how people can manage

00:37:46.789 --> 00:37:51.477
different flows have to have changed
because they haven't seen those kind

00:37:51.510 --> 00:37:56.236
of flows since 1996.

00:37:56.269 --> 00:38:03.195
Uh going back to challenges that you
faced and accomplishments, can you

00:38:03.228 --> 00:38:07.666
name any more, you know, in this 20
year or so period, you've been

00:38:07.699 --> 00:38:14.175
involved. What other challenges did
you face in articulating hydropower

00:38:14.208 --> 00:38:18.217
interests and, and accomplishments you
may have. I think probably one of

00:38:18.250 --> 00:38:24.115
the biggest challenges is trying to,
trying to do a better job of really

00:38:24.148 --> 00:38:29.106
educating what this federal hydropower
resource really is and what it

00:38:29.139 --> 00:38:35.856
isn't and who the customers are and
who they aren't. Um

00:38:35.889 --> 00:38:40.586
And also,

00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:45.316
you know, I, I, as I indicated, creed
has been a big part of our limited

00:38:45.349 --> 00:38:50.307
budget, bringing in trying to bring in
science expertise,

00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:55.845
but we aren't the federal scientists.
And

00:38:55.878 --> 00:38:59.517
I think that's just, we've kind of
learned that's just the reality, you

00:38:59.550 --> 00:39:04.666
know, they, the US GS science folks
and reclamation, science folks and

00:39:04.699 --> 00:39:08.126
other science folks that they listen
and well, thank you for your input,

00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:13.916
but we aren't federal scientists. So
if I had to do it all over again, I'm

00:39:13.949 --> 00:39:20.385
not sure I would have, I, I would have
recommended um

00:39:20.418 --> 00:39:25.046
having spending that much money, we
spent

00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:30.717
a lot of money. The biggest part of my
budget has been environmental stuff

00:39:30.750 --> 00:39:35.456
to try to position you to be a more
informed advocate for your interest,

00:39:35.489 --> 00:39:41.986
right? And, and you know, to try to
understand um the other, the other

00:39:42.019 --> 00:39:46.796
science because like I said, we hired
a biologist and a geomorphology. We

00:39:46.829 --> 00:39:50.356
didn't hire hydropower expertise
because we thought we had it with the

00:39:50.389 --> 00:39:57.247
utilities. But one of the
accomplishments, um I would say probably one of

00:39:57.280 --> 00:39:59.977
the biggest accomplishments

00:40:00.010 --> 00:40:05.336
was being able to develop

00:40:05.369 --> 00:40:12.425
and submit what was a viable
alternative in the Ltmeis.

00:40:12.458 --> 00:40:16.695
And it was Alternative B and that was,
that was an alternative that we

00:40:16.728 --> 00:40:23.916
wrote up. We had science behind it. Um
Again, I'm, I'm biased of course.

00:40:23.949 --> 00:40:29.925
But if Alternative B had been
selected, every resource in L temp would

00:40:29.958 --> 00:40:35.986
have still benefited. And any elements
of Alternative B get selected in

00:40:36.019 --> 00:40:42.037
the final preferred alternative. Well,
a concept

00:40:42.070 --> 00:40:50.070
um the monthly volume concept and the
fluctuating flow factor was a

00:40:51.148 --> 00:40:57.945
concept that we, we supported from the
state's alternative, the RT CD uh

00:40:57.978 --> 00:41:03.066
that was alternative C I think or D um
The state's alternative was

00:41:03.099 --> 00:41:11.099
developed by utilizing a lot of
science that this program has used, you

00:41:11.188 --> 00:41:17.115
know, you name it um all the fish guys
and the sediment they, they drew

00:41:17.148 --> 00:41:21.345
from them and developed an, an
alternative that would have only had a

00:41:21.378 --> 00:41:26.646
little negative impact on hydropower.
A little uh you know, in a perfect

00:41:26.679 --> 00:41:32.345
world. I would like to have seen that
alternative go forward because the

00:41:32.378 --> 00:41:36.026
proponents of that alternative went
and met with all the stakeholders

00:41:36.059 --> 00:41:40.365
tried to incorporate their concerns,
met with the fishermen, the tribes,

00:41:40.398 --> 00:41:46.695
everyone. And I think that was a
really good community alternative.

00:41:46.728 --> 00:41:51.095
But interior brought in an alternative
and then made some compromises on

00:41:51.128 --> 00:41:57.376
the fluctuating flow factor and just
to give you numbers, so the states

00:41:57.409 --> 00:42:02.956
proposed tens and twelves 10 times the
monthly volume for a fluctuating

00:42:02.989 --> 00:42:10.017
flow factor in the peak months. 12 and
then 10, the interior alternative

00:42:10.050 --> 00:42:16.497
proposed sevens flat seven. So the,
the volume and the fluctuations were

00:42:16.530 --> 00:42:22.586
demand much less. So the preferred
alternative compromise between those

00:42:22.619 --> 00:42:27.967
numbers. Yeah. And the creta the b
alternative, the only really real

00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:32.787
difference was we would have had tens
and twelves during the peak and the

00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:37.186
other months, otherwise it wasn't a
lot. And one other difference, the

00:42:37.219 --> 00:42:43.365
alternative be restricted hfes to no
more than one every other year. So

00:42:43.398 --> 00:42:47.546
that was basically the difference in
the alternatives.

00:42:47.579 --> 00:42:51.595
Um But that was, I think that was one
of our, our really good

00:42:51.628 --> 00:42:56.557
accomplishments. I think that it kind
of became a book end. You know, I

00:42:56.590 --> 00:42:59.477
have to wonder what, what a preferred
alternative would have looked like

00:42:59.510 --> 00:43:04.675
but for that experiment or that
alternative, but, you know, just being

00:43:04.708 --> 00:43:10.077
able to articulate the science and
write it up and have it be a viable

00:43:10.110 --> 00:43:15.046
alternative? Was a, you know, a good
accomplishment for us. What's the

00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:21.577
relationship between hfes and
hydropower interests? Are HFES not a good

00:43:21.610 --> 00:43:29.610
thing for hydropower or can hydropower
utilize the HFES effectively? Uh

00:43:29.769 --> 00:43:35.416
unless there's an HFE that hasn't been
designed yet,

00:43:35.449 --> 00:43:39.376
there will never be an HFE that
benefits hydropower. Now there will be

00:43:39.409 --> 00:43:46.057
different hfes that you can reduce the
negative impact. Um And so I think

00:43:46.090 --> 00:43:50.997
that was really the reason we started
promoting project in and that was

00:43:51.030 --> 00:43:55.066
when you're doing any experiments,
consider the effects on hydropower

00:43:55.099 --> 00:43:59.945
because there could be some win wins
here. Um And HFE and that I'm

00:43:59.978 --> 00:44:04.836
encouraged by looking at Spring Hfes
within power plant because where the

00:44:04.869 --> 00:44:10.967
, where the damage or where the, the
negative effect is, is bypass.

00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:14.396
If you're bypassing water, that's,
that's the negative effect. And so they

00:44:14.429 --> 00:44:19.615
, they, a, they estimate the way hfes
have been done, it's about a million

00:44:19.648 --> 00:44:23.126
and a half to 2 million a year. I
mean, a million and a half to $2 million

00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:29.425
effect or impact to, to hydropower
with every HFE that's primarily because

00:44:29.458 --> 00:44:34.146
bypass you're not generating. So if we
can start looking at some hfes that

00:44:34.179 --> 00:44:37.445
could be done within power plant,

00:44:37.478 --> 00:44:41.517
you don't bypass, maybe you can do
them more frequently. You know why they

00:44:41.550 --> 00:44:46.925
can't do those high flow events
through the turbines instead of using a

00:44:46.958 --> 00:44:50.925
bypass.

00:44:50.958 --> 00:44:53.316
They can.

00:44:53.349 --> 00:44:57.057
But I, but

00:44:57.090 --> 00:45:01.006
you know, it may be one of those. It's
not enough, you aren't getting

00:45:01.039 --> 00:45:07.217
enough sediment up and you aren't
going enough or a long enough push up,

00:45:07.250 --> 00:45:12.767
you know, so when you bypass, you're
getting a bigger flush. Ok. So, but

00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:17.396
uh what, what I'm, what I've been
saying is, well, then why don't you look

00:45:17.429 --> 00:45:22.646
at one that doesn't kill hydro by
bypassing? Do it within power plan,

00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:26.686
maybe you can do them more frequently
and not have the significant impacts

00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:32.195
the 2 million of that whack. Or maybe
you can, you know, let's look at

00:45:32.228 --> 00:45:37.135
some designs where you can fluctuate
more, leading up to it because you're

00:45:37.168 --> 00:45:42.276
gonna get an HFE to push that sediment
up. We get some fluctuations

00:45:42.309 --> 00:45:47.287
leading up to it. So we get a little
more flexibility and then you do it

00:45:47.320 --> 00:45:51.506
within power plants. So you don't
bypass and lose, lose a generation. So

00:45:51.539 --> 00:45:57.247
I'm, I'm encouraged with this new, um
what do they call it? The flag flow

00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:03.876
ad hoc group. That's, they're, they're
beginning to start a flow ad hoc

00:46:03.909 --> 00:46:08.977
group to look at springtime, hfes and
hfes that could maybe be within

00:46:09.010 --> 00:46:15.615
Power plant adaptive management and
action. Exactly. Exactly. It's kind of

00:46:15.648 --> 00:46:17.925
like,

00:46:17.958 --> 00:46:23.706
you know, when I, well, when I had my
child way back in those days and I

00:46:23.739 --> 00:46:27.655
was full time working, my husband's
full time working and, and someone

00:46:27.688 --> 00:46:34.195
said to me, you know, you can't do it
all. You can't have it all well, but

00:46:34.228 --> 00:46:40.026
maybe it's good enough to have parts
of. So I kind of look at hfes like

00:46:40.059 --> 00:46:46.026
that, you know, do you have to do a 96
or 100 and 20 hour one every time

00:46:46.059 --> 00:46:53.776
you do it or can you be satisfied? The
system is? So the system is going

00:46:53.809 --> 00:47:00.106
to ebb and flow. So you're, you know,
this uh a hue and cry about all the

00:47:00.139 --> 00:47:02.885
sediment is gonna be pushed out down
to me and we're gonna lose all the

00:47:02.918 --> 00:47:06.816
beaches that the monitoring since we
started doing HFES is not showing

00:47:06.849 --> 00:47:11.436
that, you know, you get a big benefit,
then it erodes away. So maybe you

00:47:11.469 --> 00:47:15.816
do a littler one, then you rode, then
you do a more frequent littler one,

00:47:15.849 --> 00:47:22.227
but don't try to have it all. It's a
balance, right.

00:47:22.260 --> 00:47:27.376
Well, to be uh involved, as long as
you've been involved, you have to not

00:47:27.409 --> 00:47:32.595
only care about the resource that
you're advocating for, but you have to

00:47:32.628 --> 00:47:38.635
really be committed to a collaborative
process. And I wonder if you could

00:47:38.668 --> 00:47:45.106
talk just a little bit about what,
what you see as the central character

00:47:45.139 --> 00:47:50.006
of this collaborative process, how
it's evolved over time. You, you must

00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:54.655
think it's been worthwhile to have
been involved since 1999.

00:47:54.688 --> 00:48:00.086
Yeah, I I do and you know, it may have
its warts and it gets picked out

00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:03.046
from time to time in publications,
people write about it and say it's

00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:09.537
failed. Um But I would say back to
them, what's the alternative?

00:48:09.570 --> 00:48:16.767
You know, you look at um you look at
EIS processes and you look at some of

00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:22.986
the big ones like the first EIS Glen
Cannon was over $100 million. Wow.

00:48:23.019 --> 00:48:31.019
And so did, was that better than doing
an EIE A or an EIS and still having

00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:37.227
the same type of public outreach did
you get a better project product or

00:48:37.260 --> 00:48:42.037
did you get just a lot more model
running? So I would say for

00:48:42.070 --> 00:48:47.425
collaboration,

00:48:47.458 --> 00:48:50.186
it's been,

00:48:50.219 --> 00:48:55.885
I think not enough for some people. Um
We heard from the tribes today that

00:48:55.918 --> 00:49:00.856
or from the Park Service, I guess,
Jan, that no matter what projects the

00:49:00.889 --> 00:49:04.206
tribes would bring up, they would be
pushed down in the whole budget thing.

00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:11.175
So they feel like, and I understand, I
try to understand their

00:49:11.208 --> 00:49:19.208
perspective. Um but they feel like
their voices aren't maybe heard enough.

00:49:20.219 --> 00:49:22.219
But what, what is an alternative? Um in probably about 2011, it was the,

00:49:27.030 --> 00:49:31.956
the same time that the desired future
conditions process went forward. Um

00:49:31.989 --> 00:49:38.115
There was a comment made at an AM wig
meeting from a high ranking interior

00:49:38.148 --> 00:49:44.175
person that said, why don't we just do
away with this thing and let

00:49:44.208 --> 00:49:49.345
reclamation operate the dam, let the
park service manage the park

00:49:49.378 --> 00:49:55.146
resources and let us gs do the
science. We don't need any of this because

00:49:55.179 --> 00:50:02.037
I'm sure it's probably a pain for the
administration that has to put up

00:50:02.070 --> 00:50:07.195
with the stakeholders that at times
forget we're an advisory committee

00:50:07.228 --> 00:50:11.827
sometimes feel like we could do a
better job than they do. But what's the

00:50:11.860 --> 00:50:18.267
alternative? The law says you are
going to consult with these entities? So

00:50:18.300 --> 00:50:25.276
I haven't yet heard a better um a
better option. Uh At times I've heard we

00:50:25.309 --> 00:50:29.896
don't have enough academia in the room

00:50:29.929 --> 00:50:34.945
you know, II, I don't know what stops.

00:50:34.978 --> 00:50:40.557
Do you remember Joe Feller? Joe Feller
used to bring his A SU class and

00:50:40.590 --> 00:50:44.345
now and again to some of these
meetings and Joe Feller and I used to go

00:50:44.378 --> 00:50:49.717
around and around about the deaf. Yes,
he was at a SU and um Joe Feller

00:50:49.750 --> 00:50:54.106
and I really had some, some very, very
interesting debates about his

00:50:54.139 --> 00:50:58.977
interpretation versus mine of the
Colorado Restored Project Act. We would

00:50:59.010 --> 00:51:03.767
never agree, but we knew that we just
didn't never agree but feller rather

00:51:03.800 --> 00:51:08.546
than just standing back and saying you
guys don't have any academia, he

00:51:08.579 --> 00:51:15.006
would bring his class. He would he
anyway, you know that. So I would just

00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:22.106
say, hey, if somebody has a better
idea, bring it a number of our

00:51:22.139 --> 00:51:26.287
interviewees have mentioned that
without this program, there would be a

00:51:26.320 --> 00:51:31.416
lot more conflict and a lot more
litigation. No kidding. I'm glad you

00:51:31.449 --> 00:51:36.227
mentioned that because we, well, there
have really been two cases. I, well

00:51:36.260 --> 00:51:41.756
, the one, the recovery goal case
wasn't on dam operations. So we have to

00:51:41.789 --> 00:51:46.945
set that aside. But that was AAA case
that was filed by the Grand Canyon

00:51:46.978 --> 00:51:52.057
Trust about the recovery goals for the
endangered fish. So it had effects

00:51:52.090 --> 00:51:56.936
, it had implications and of course,
we felt like we had to intervene to

00:51:56.969 --> 00:52:01.595
get in there, you know, um and that
case was resolved. But the, the Light

00:52:01.628 --> 00:52:06.767
Trust case that came about, um

00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:14.800
that had six claims maybe. And some of
them, um,

00:52:15.110 --> 00:52:22.037
would directly if they were
successful, uh, were really my take on that

00:52:22.070 --> 00:52:26.796
litigation was they wanted a certain
type of operation and didn't get it

00:52:26.829 --> 00:52:32.586
administratively. So let's try the
courts and that's my take on it. And

00:52:32.619 --> 00:52:37.876
also, but looking at the process
because they also wanted additional NP A

00:52:37.909 --> 00:52:41.416
for every annual operating plan. They
wanted NP A to have to be done for

00:52:41.449 --> 00:52:48.166
every A op and that would have drawn
out process. But, but yeah, that,

00:52:48.199 --> 00:52:52.807
that was um the tense for a little
while and all of us had to intervene.

00:52:52.840 --> 00:52:57.836
So, you know, we're spending all of
our limited money and um, we briefed,

00:52:57.869 --> 00:53:01.807
I'll send you that. We did a very
short brief on hydropower and the

00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:08.126
purpose. And I think it, I think it, I
think it was quite, I would call

00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:12.287
that an accomplishment too because to
have a district court pick up that

00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:17.477
theme in our brief on the hydropower
purpose, I think was a pretty good

00:53:17.510 --> 00:53:22.206
accomplishment. But yeah, without
this,

00:53:22.239 --> 00:53:27.077
we would be probably like the Pacific
Northwest is with judges running the

00:53:27.110 --> 00:53:32.577
river. Now, I have my counterparts
over there. It's just continual

00:53:32.610 --> 00:53:37.557
litigation and judges determining bi
ops and all kinds of stuff. So, is

00:53:37.590 --> 00:53:42.365
that what is that what this program or
these stakeholders would really

00:53:42.398 --> 00:53:46.296
like to see? I don't think so.

00:53:46.329 --> 00:53:52.256
So, so you like virtually every other
person we've interviewed and I

00:53:52.289 --> 00:53:56.626
haven't read any of the interviews
that I, I'm sorry to say, but everybody

00:53:56.659 --> 00:54:00.977
agrees that the program has been
valuable and ought to be continued. It

00:54:01.010 --> 00:54:06.477
sounds like you're in the same boat.
Even people who are critical and

00:54:06.510 --> 00:54:12.646
disappointed say this is better than
the alternative that it's been good

00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:18.717
at building relationships and trust
that we are improving decision making

00:54:18.750 --> 00:54:24.816
based on science the way we hope in a
rational program we would do. Um

00:54:24.849 --> 00:54:28.956
Nobody that we've interviewed, let's
throw it out. That's pretty

00:54:28.989 --> 00:54:32.986
interesting because you guys probably
have some pretty diverse. We try

00:54:33.019 --> 00:54:38.126
diverse, a lot of different voices.
Well, that's kind of good. Well, that

00:54:38.159 --> 00:54:42.736
then I feel like that's an
accomplishment that I put in 20 years into this

00:54:42.769 --> 00:54:46.467
all for not for not, right?

00:54:46.500 --> 00:54:51.967
So, um if it is continued in the
future, where would you like to see it go

00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:57.316
? What kind of improvements in either
the process or the outcomes would

00:54:57.349 --> 00:55:04.057
you like to see?

00:55:04.090 --> 00:55:09.506
I'd like to see some more definition
on metrics because, you know, I think

00:55:09.539 --> 00:55:13.635
the program now has a, we have kind of
what our desired. We have our, our

00:55:13.668 --> 00:55:21.396
, our universe of resources as big as
it is, but it's still manageable.

00:55:21.429 --> 00:55:24.206
But I would like to see from the
various stakeholders that are

00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:29.146
representing interests. What's your
utopia for your resource? I can tell

00:55:29.179 --> 00:55:33.425
you what it is for hydropower. That's
we're pretty easy and, but the

00:55:33.458 --> 00:55:39.276
metrics and I think, I think um
reclamation is really trying to start at

00:55:39.309 --> 00:55:43.316
that. How do we get at the metrics?
It's, it was the, it was originally

00:55:43.349 --> 00:55:47.236
going to be called phase two of the DF
CS. That's what Anne Castle called.

00:55:47.269 --> 00:55:52.916
It, desired future conditions. And
phase two would have been the metrics

00:55:52.949 --> 00:55:57.557
and we never got to phase two. We'd
never have a formal document. She

00:55:57.590 --> 00:56:04.945
anticipated temp would be it and it
really wasn't. So, so doing that would

00:56:04.978 --> 00:56:08.577
be a good, yes. And I think, I think
that's what they're, they're starting

00:56:08.610 --> 00:56:14.967
because we talked about it at AM wig
one year ago. And that was really

00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:21.077
kind of a need because if you don't
have a goal or a metric, well, the

00:56:21.110 --> 00:56:25.486
metric is really not a goal. Is it a
metric is how you measure it? But if

00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:32.756
you don't have a finite, almost like a
physical goal, then it'd be

00:56:32.789 --> 00:56:36.606
wonderful. If we had unlimited
dollars, we could do science on, you know,

00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:41.615
the color of this stuff. But it, it'll
help us focus the science on where

00:56:41.648 --> 00:56:45.925
are the gaps? What do we not know yet?
What do we know? I've heard the

00:56:45.958 --> 00:56:51.956
Park Service say many times in media
newspapers.

00:56:51.989 --> 00:56:57.445
We know if we know enough, we just
need to operate the right way. So

00:56:57.478 --> 00:57:01.566
there's been a lot of science in some
areas, not so much in others. So

00:57:01.599 --> 00:57:05.956
what are the gaps? And do we need to
know? Do we need to do science on

00:57:05.989 --> 00:57:12.345
things, if there isn't a logical
connection to where we want to be. No. So

00:57:12.378 --> 00:57:20.378
, um if I'm catching your meaning, are
you suggesting that if we had

00:57:20.860 --> 00:57:27.066
metrics about the goals we're heading
towards, we can not only measure

00:57:27.099 --> 00:57:31.006
whether we're making progress or not,
but we will also be able to

00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:36.486
determine whether some of the
decisions we make about operations are

00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:43.086
achieving the desire. If we know what
it is that we're, if we can measure

00:57:43.119 --> 00:57:48.217
it and that's where it gets you back
to the adaptive management, we can

00:57:48.250 --> 00:57:52.106
keep operating all day in a certain
way. But is it good or not? Good? Well

00:57:52.139 --> 00:57:57.675
, what is good? How do you define
good? Right.

00:57:57.708 --> 00:58:02.436
It really is a challenge and for some,
some resources are easier than

00:58:02.469 --> 00:58:08.836
others, we have recovery goals for
endangered fish, right? So we know we

00:58:08.869 --> 00:58:15.646
can do fish counts. Um What I don't
know, and I would love recreation guys

00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:23.679
or park service guys to tell me, what
is your, what is your desire for

00:58:24.510 --> 00:58:32.510
camping? Beaches? Is it bigger
beaches? Is it or is it more frequent? More

00:58:33.978 --> 00:58:38.675
beaches? Is a quantity? Is it quality?
What is it? I, I seriously am

00:58:38.708 --> 00:58:43.615
interested and that's never been
quantified to your knowledge. No. And I,

00:58:43.648 --> 00:58:48.827
I would love to know that there are
some things that would be difficult to

00:58:48.860 --> 00:58:52.267
quantify, like

00:58:52.300 --> 00:59:00.300
satisfaction on the part of a canyon.
Exactly. Because when you do, when

00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:06.997
you do a survey uh, probably the
majority of people that raft the canyon.

00:59:07.030 --> 00:59:14.276
It's their first time. They don't have
anything to compare it to. And

00:59:14.309 --> 00:59:19.327
you know, how survey questions are
structured, how, how would anyone not

00:59:19.360 --> 00:59:24.456
say it was a wonderful experience
unless they, if it's your second or

00:59:24.489 --> 00:59:32.489
third time and this time the, the
flows were way up or the weather was bad.

00:59:33.289 --> 00:59:37.595
What are you going to do about that?
Or camel thorn everywhere? Exactly.

00:59:37.628 --> 00:59:42.695
Poked my foot. Exactly. The last time
I went on the Am Wick river trip

00:59:42.728 --> 00:59:47.115
was 20 years ago. This year, there
wasn't that much Camel Thorn. 20 years

00:59:47.148 --> 00:59:51.405
. I don't even know what Camel Thorn
is. So I just went down the Grand

00:59:51.438 --> 00:59:59.307
Canyon in July for 18 days and it was
everywhere. I was shocked. So, where

00:59:59.340 --> 01:00:04.396
did that? Is that a non native native?
Ok. Where did it come from? Good

01:00:04.429 --> 01:00:10.227
question. I don't know. I mean, my
touch point is Tamara, you know, Tamari

01:00:10.260 --> 01:00:18.115
was always like the big bad thing. But
yeah, now it's providing shade and

01:00:18.148 --> 01:00:24.155
that's right. The Camel Thorn and it
provides housing for Southwester

01:00:24.188 --> 01:00:27.865
Willow flycatcher, right?

01:00:27.898 --> 01:00:31.206
So it's kind of like my comment today
about life cycle impact assessment.

01:00:31.239 --> 01:00:35.345
You know, every, every resource or I
guess you could look at all these

01:00:35.378 --> 01:00:40.106
river downstream resources, every
resource has its good and its bad. It

01:00:40.139 --> 01:00:45.046
has pros and cons and you know, it, it
wasn't all that long ago because it

01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:51.945
was, it was when Jack Schmidt was, was
here, we started asking

01:00:51.978 --> 01:00:56.836
what about vegetation? Don't just say
that dam operations are doing in the

01:00:56.869 --> 01:01:01.747
beaches are good or bad for the
beaches. That's not the only thing that

01:01:01.780 --> 01:01:07.037
affects the experience. What about
vegetation? And that's really when they

01:01:07.070 --> 01:01:12.356
kind of started looking at now, it's
called an experiment, but I call it a

01:01:12.389 --> 01:01:15.916
management action, vegetation removal.

01:01:15.949 --> 01:01:21.146
And what about, what about the effects
of campers on beaches? I don't know.

01:01:21.179 --> 01:01:25.445
Did they, do they affect the sand on
beaches? They got to, they've got to

01:01:25.478 --> 01:01:30.365
have some impact. So do you think
we're looking at enough resources?

01:01:30.398 --> 01:01:36.195
Should we? Um I, I, is our focus too
narrow? Is it just right? Is it too

01:01:36.228 --> 01:01:40.396
broad? What do you think? And how has
it changed over time, I think for,

01:01:40.429 --> 01:01:44.436
for many years. And it, that was
partly a function. I my opinion was

01:01:44.469 --> 01:01:48.537
because of the capability and the
expertise of the folks who were running

01:01:48.570 --> 01:01:52.106
the center and it was all sediment all
the time. There was some used to

01:01:52.139 --> 01:01:56.836
call it the all sediment channel. And
there was, you look at the budgets

01:01:56.869 --> 01:02:00.816
and the budgets were really heavily
weighted to the physical resources.

01:02:00.849 --> 01:02:04.376
Then for a while, some voices came in
saying, but wait a minute, what

01:02:04.409 --> 01:02:08.956
about the biology? We have this
endangered job. We gotta do a lot more on

01:02:08.989 --> 01:02:13.095
that because it's regulatory and it's
uh you know, and look what's

01:02:13.128 --> 01:02:18.997
transpired bug. Flows 20 years ago, no
one would have thought about that.

01:02:19.030 --> 01:02:24.046
So again, I, I think we are doing, we
are adaptively managing. Um And

01:02:24.079 --> 01:02:30.615
we're learning, I think um in terms of
a balance of resources, I'd like to

01:02:30.648 --> 01:02:34.086
see more on the biology.

01:02:34.119 --> 01:02:39.057
Um because I think the stuff that Bill
Pine and the Florida scientists did

01:02:39.090 --> 01:02:44.977
is fascinating. And what was that?
That was the steady flow experiment,

01:02:45.010 --> 01:02:49.296
the five year steady flow experiment
because it turned thinking on, on the

01:02:49.329 --> 01:02:53.037
head, people thought chub are all
using these backwaters. So we have to do

01:02:53.070 --> 01:02:57.517
hfes in order to create backwaters.
Well, they weren't and it didn't take

01:02:57.550 --> 01:03:03.296
, you know, $100 million experiment or
a steady flow experiment that cost

01:03:03.329 --> 01:03:09.017
$30 million to find that out. It was
really just a lot of time spent in

01:03:09.050 --> 01:03:14.146
the field by people looking at,
looking at the resources. So, uh,

01:03:14.179 --> 01:03:17.967
fisheries, people that we've talked to
have also told us that there were

01:03:18.000 --> 01:03:22.425
some surprises there too that at first
they thought the trout were doing

01:03:22.458 --> 01:03:26.876
all this predation and it turned out
that, um, maybe the brown trout, yes

01:03:26.909 --> 01:03:30.577
, but the main trout is rainbow trout
and they don't eat that many trout.

01:03:30.610 --> 01:03:33.706
And it took a long time for them to
figure it out. But they, you know,

01:03:33.739 --> 01:03:37.327
they had a hypothesis. They did some
research, they found out that they

01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:41.236
were a little bit wrong and they
revised their hypothesis that's

01:03:41.269 --> 01:03:49.155
adaptively managed a man and, and it,
it has led to changes in management

01:03:49.188 --> 01:03:53.615
and change and sort of. Well, I
suppose. Can you talk a little bit about

01:03:53.648 --> 01:04:00.986
how you've seen? So, what we're
adaptively managing most of the time are

01:04:01.019 --> 01:04:05.675
dam operations which always, as you've
pointed out, always affects

01:04:05.708 --> 01:04:10.497
hydropower. Can you talk a little bit
more about how some of our learning

01:04:10.530 --> 01:04:17.506
over time in this program um has been
applied to dam operations in ways

01:04:17.539 --> 01:04:22.046
that you think are beneficial or not.
Well, I I could comment on how I

01:04:22.079 --> 01:04:30.079
think it's been applied to more non
dam solutions because translocations

01:04:30.809 --> 01:04:33.796
of fish.

01:04:33.829 --> 01:04:39.997
Um No long and looking at,

01:04:40.030 --> 01:04:45.307
let me think temperature, temperature
is a hard one.

01:04:45.340 --> 01:04:49.155
because several years ago, we had a,
we had a concept that we were really

01:04:49.188 --> 01:04:55.106
proposing a temperature control device
and you know, that idea kind of

01:04:55.139 --> 01:04:59.287
went by the wayside, but that would
have been a non oat it's operational

01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:06.936
but it's not flow related, right? Um
Looking at

01:05:06.969 --> 01:05:11.206
vegetation management so maybe you can
do some things to help camping

01:05:11.239 --> 01:05:16.146
beaches where you don't have to just
do a big old HFE, right? So is there

01:05:16.179 --> 01:05:19.905
resistance to coming up with solutions
to some of these ecological

01:05:19.938 --> 01:05:24.206
problems that don't involve altering
dam operations? Are there people

01:05:24.239 --> 01:05:31.436
saying our whole objective is to tell
reclamation or interior how to alter

01:05:31.469 --> 01:05:36.845
dam operations is I think there's a
lot of that because in a way it's the

01:05:36.878 --> 01:05:42.675
easy way. It's the easy way. It's, you
can go turn switches and operate

01:05:42.708 --> 01:05:45.807
the dam. But, you know, I think if
people look back at the Grand Canyon

01:05:45.840 --> 01:05:50.905
Protection Act, it is dam operations
and other management actions. And so

01:05:50.938 --> 01:05:54.557
I would, I would really like to see
some of these other management actions

01:05:54.590 --> 01:05:58.217
like the vegetation management. I'm
really glad to hear that they actually

01:05:58.250 --> 01:06:03.365
got out there and started doing some
of that and whether it is called an

01:06:03.398 --> 01:06:08.046
experiment because then it can be
funded. How would you explain that?

01:06:08.079 --> 01:06:12.287
Please? Do you want me to explain
that, please?

01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:20.320
When the concept of um maybe doing
manual vegetation removal and stuff

01:06:21.239 --> 01:06:28.385
came about, um somebody was, someone
was crafty and said, if we call it an

01:06:28.418 --> 01:06:33.425
experiment, we can use power revenues
to fund it through this program. If

01:06:33.458 --> 01:06:38.827
it's not an experiment, it's a
management action. And another source of

01:06:38.860 --> 01:06:44.276
funding would have to be used through
appropriations or service. Yeah,

01:06:44.309 --> 01:06:49.376
interesting. So it's called stuff is
called experimental.

01:06:49.409 --> 01:06:52.175
Well, that's adaptive.

01:06:52.208 --> 01:06:58.296
It's a actively naming things, right?
So, yeah, so I'm really waiting for

01:06:58.329 --> 01:07:04.416
the for this experiment to be written
up and say, OK, you take what you

01:07:04.449 --> 01:07:08.345
learn from an experiment, then what do
you do? How do you translate it

01:07:08.378 --> 01:07:14.537
into a management action?

01:07:14.570 --> 01:07:21.497
Well, um we're nearing the end of my
list of questions. My next one is um

01:07:21.530 --> 01:07:26.155
what advice would you give to new
people coming on to the Adaptive

01:07:26.188 --> 01:07:31.796
management program. Um One of the
things that we're producing in this

01:07:31.829 --> 01:07:37.586
project is orientation packet for new
members. OK. And what, what do you

01:07:37.619 --> 01:07:41.695
think should go into that orientation
packet? What kinds of information

01:07:41.728 --> 01:07:45.546
are really critical for somebody who's
new? And what advice would you give

01:07:45.579 --> 01:07:49.546
to somebody if you were sitting here
with somebody who's just coming on,

01:07:49.579 --> 01:07:53.267
what would you say to start? You know,
this is really putting me on the

01:07:53.300 --> 01:07:58.425
spot because I'm in the process of
trying to write an orientation manual

01:07:58.458 --> 01:08:02.807
for my organization as we speak. So
I've really been struggling thinking

01:08:02.840 --> 01:08:06.776
about this. I've been thinking about
it a lot.

01:08:06.809 --> 01:08:11.467
I'd love for you to share that with me
when I get it when I get it done.

01:08:11.500 --> 01:08:19.500
Yeah. Um I would, I would maybe, you
know, say

01:08:21.069 --> 01:08:27.027
maybe from the Bible, not a biblical
person, but in the beginning there

01:08:27.060 --> 01:08:33.946
was so where did this program come
from? Start with that? And because I

01:08:33.979 --> 01:08:38.916
think if, if people don't really
understand where the program came from,

01:08:38.949 --> 01:08:45.635
why is it here? These are the laws or
the documents that created it? This

01:08:45.668 --> 01:08:48.316
is why we're here

01:08:48.349 --> 01:08:51.555
from that.

01:08:51.588 --> 01:08:55.187
You know, you can, you can send them
an important tool that I keep being

01:08:55.220 --> 01:08:59.456
reminded is at wiki cause I, I always
kind of forget to look because I

01:08:59.489 --> 01:09:05.857
think we can find a lot of things
there, but that's more of a tool than a

01:09:05.890 --> 01:09:08.805
um

01:09:08.838 --> 01:09:14.836
you know, we had uh i it, it may over
the next year, it may work itself

01:09:14.869 --> 01:09:18.236
out if the

01:09:18.269 --> 01:09:23.384
small g guidance documents are going
to be relooked at or refreshed

01:09:23.417 --> 01:09:27.825
because there was a lot of work put in
over many years for the Strategic

01:09:27.858 --> 01:09:33.715
Science Plan. Um What were some of
these other, the, the research and

01:09:33.748 --> 01:09:38.215
monitoring plan? You know, there was
a, a thinking, a lot of thinking

01:09:38.248 --> 01:09:42.796
about a planning document and we've
kind of gotten away from that. And I,

01:09:42.829 --> 01:09:46.496
I think now the reclamation is going
to rook at some of those. Are they

01:09:46.529 --> 01:09:51.196
still relevant? Do they still do they
need to be changed to reflect el

01:09:51.229 --> 01:09:55.996
temp? But those, those were kind of
the guidance and the framework from

01:09:56.029 --> 01:10:02.366
the program. Here's what we're doing.
Um Here's a science plan. I think we

01:10:02.399 --> 01:10:07.897
seriously need a science plan that was
supposed to come out of L temp. And

01:10:07.930 --> 01:10:12.996
I don't think we have a good science
plan, implementing L temp a science

01:10:13.029 --> 01:10:17.885
plan. So that doesn't help answer your
question because we don't have that

01:10:17.918 --> 01:10:22.595
to give to someone to say here is our
plan to implement L temp A science

01:10:22.628 --> 01:10:28.226
plan. In my view is the hypotheses,
you know, here again, your metrics or

01:10:28.259 --> 01:10:33.095
your goals and objectives. These are
the hypotheses we're going to look at.

01:10:33.128 --> 01:10:37.706
These are the um this is how we're
going to about go about doing it.

01:10:37.739 --> 01:10:41.805
Here's what the science is gonna look
like here's, you know, a period of

01:10:41.838 --> 01:10:46.987
time, we don't have something like
that to pick up. We have some

01:10:47.020 --> 01:10:51.366
experiments that were identified in
temp, but we don't have a

01:10:51.399 --> 01:10:56.626
comprehensive science plan for this
program. So back to, back to your

01:10:56.659 --> 01:11:02.987
question, I would, you know, I, I if
someone, someone really needs to sit

01:11:03.020 --> 01:11:09.086
down and read a lot of, a lot of stuff
and those fundamental, the

01:11:09.119 --> 01:11:13.836
strategic science plan, the monitoring
and research plan, and then the

01:11:13.869 --> 01:11:18.487
triennial work plan and budget because
that's evolved over time. So that's

01:11:18.520 --> 01:11:22.515
really, really pretty good because it
talks about what each of the program

01:11:22.548 --> 01:11:25.976
elements are intended to do and what
they're looking at and here are the

01:11:26.009 --> 01:11:30.956
dollars associated. So that's a good,
you know, that's a good beginning

01:11:30.989 --> 01:11:36.956
foundation. What about um, ones if you
were going to provide advice to

01:11:36.989 --> 01:11:42.226
somebody joining the team, there's a,
there are relationships, there's

01:11:42.259 --> 01:11:46.756
ways of behaving that are productive
and not productive in a setting like

01:11:46.789 --> 01:11:53.107
this. What would you say about how
somebody should approach their task as

01:11:53.140 --> 01:11:59.305
a representative of as a stakeholder?

01:11:59.338 --> 01:12:02.996
Hm,

01:12:03.029 --> 01:12:06.656
I could probably be accused of, of
doing some of the things really the

01:12:06.689 --> 01:12:14.067
wrong way at times in these meetings.
Um

01:12:14.100 --> 01:12:22.100
But with age comes wisdom, right, we
hope we hope

01:12:22.168 --> 01:12:27.956
um really trying to listen,

01:12:27.989 --> 01:12:31.265
you know, I, I'll look around the
table and I multitask as badly as

01:12:31.298 --> 01:12:34.885
everyone else around there. But

01:12:34.918 --> 01:12:39.647
um try to really listen to what people
are saying and we've had a pretty

01:12:39.680 --> 01:12:45.906
big turnover, um, lately, no, recently
because I, I think for quite a

01:12:45.939 --> 01:12:50.805
while, the same reps were there for a
long time and it's, it's been a

01:12:50.838 --> 01:12:57.946
function of agency changes but also,
um, just retirements, aging workforce.

01:12:57.979 --> 01:13:02.925
And when you only meet three times,
two times a year than once on a

01:13:02.958 --> 01:13:07.256
webinar, it's very hard to develop the
relationships. And then, you know,

01:13:07.289 --> 01:13:12.476
I, I would say the relationships I
have with most of these folks in large

01:13:12.509 --> 01:13:17.666
part. It's because I see them in other
forums, not just here. So the state

01:13:17.699 --> 01:13:23.107
folks I see in other forums, that's
probably why I know them better, you

01:13:23.140 --> 01:13:31.140
know, but the, the tribal folks

01:13:31.418 --> 01:13:37.095
starting with the river trip I went on
in 1999. That's where I, that's

01:13:37.128 --> 01:13:42.086
where I established my best
relationships with. That was the first river.

01:13:42.119 --> 01:13:45.876
That was the first river trip and
Balsam I think helped to organize that

01:13:45.909 --> 01:13:50.496
or no

01:13:50.529 --> 01:13:56.206
Mark Schafer. OK. Mark Schafer. OK.
That was the, the do I person who took

01:13:56.239 --> 01:14:01.076
the vote on whether to leave it or
leave it under reclamation or move it?

01:14:01.109 --> 01:14:06.567
Mark Shafer was the lead on that river
trip. And the the purpose really of

01:14:06.600 --> 01:14:11.006
the river trip was to establish a
vision and mission for this program.

01:14:11.039 --> 01:14:18.607
Mary Orton was from American, right?
And she played a role in helping to,

01:14:18.640 --> 01:14:22.166
she was on the vision and mission
boat. I think when we did our interview

01:14:22.199 --> 01:14:25.095
with her,

01:14:25.128 --> 01:14:29.515
that was, that was, that was famous.
We're going to write about that in

01:14:29.548 --> 01:14:33.437
our administrative history. I had to
come, I was only a half timer because

01:14:33.470 --> 01:14:38.166
I had to come up halfway up Phantom
because I had other commitments. But

01:14:38.199 --> 01:14:46.199
that was a trip that I, I really got
to know Arden um

01:14:47.180 --> 01:14:52.696
bred to dry bread to dry was with Wild
Southern Pipe. And so she's not

01:14:52.729 --> 01:14:56.996
here anymore. But that's when Charlie
mentioned Leslie and Brenda or

01:14:57.029 --> 01:15:03.397
Leslie's in Brenda's flip charts. It
was from that river trip. And so, and

01:15:03.430 --> 01:15:09.027
then from there Dongas, Mike Gates. So
that's how I got to know them the

01:15:09.060 --> 01:15:15.576
best. And then I would continue to
talk with them and trying to educate

01:15:15.609 --> 01:15:23.166
about why CRSP power is important to
you guys. And so I at twig meetings,

01:15:23.199 --> 01:15:30.027
I go to a twig meeting, invite him for
lunch. And you know, uh Zuni

01:15:30.060 --> 01:15:33.397
invited me to come out and talk to the
Zuni leader, leaders about

01:15:33.430 --> 01:15:36.487
hydropower and all that. And this has
been a little while, but you just,

01:15:36.520 --> 01:15:41.086
you have to, you have to really work
hard at it because again, with the

01:15:41.119 --> 01:15:46.696
changing changing personnel, I was
thinking about that today, probably on

01:15:46.729 --> 01:15:52.446
that 1999 river trip. The only one
that was on it that is still sitting

01:15:52.479 --> 01:15:59.237
around this table is Ardent, maybe
Kate from Zuni from Zuni. And I just

01:15:59.270 --> 01:16:03.906
found out he went on this river trip
last month because he came in and,

01:16:03.939 --> 01:16:06.746
you know, we had a big hug and he
said, why weren't you on the river trip

01:16:06.779 --> 01:16:10.305
? And I went, you were on there? I
would have, I would have brought, we

01:16:10.338 --> 01:16:14.336
have a cardboard bat that we made a
bat signal and I still have that

01:16:14.369 --> 01:16:18.996
cardboard from a wine box.

01:16:19.029 --> 01:16:23.546
So it's about building relationships
and it takes a lot of extra time.

01:16:23.579 --> 01:16:29.006
It's hard work, but it pays off,

01:16:29.039 --> 01:16:33.196
you know, like as Kurt Danowski, I
never would have thought to hire him.

01:16:33.229 --> 01:16:40.385
Kurt used to work for Hopi when I
first met him and then that

01:16:40.418 --> 01:16:44.206
relationship terminated. So Creta, we,
I hired him, I think for maybe six

01:16:44.239 --> 01:16:48.866
years to advise us on all of this
cultural stuff. So he did a great job

01:16:48.899 --> 01:16:54.647
for us and he helped me develop that
relationship with the tribes and then

01:16:54.680 --> 01:17:02.680
, then he went to work for Zuni. So
and um yeah, I, I think it's very hard

01:17:04.529 --> 01:17:08.305
to do it sitting in a meeting twice a
year. You can't do it, you just

01:17:08.338 --> 01:17:12.376
can't. And I don't know what the
solution is like, David Brown said today

01:17:12.409 --> 01:17:19.345
, asking us to come for a three day
meeting is a big time commitment. And

01:17:19.378 --> 01:17:22.756
it really is when you're sitting there
trying to absorb all this, you're

01:17:22.789 --> 01:17:25.765
not building relationships.

01:17:25.798 --> 01:17:29.237
And, you know, luckily back in those
days, we didn't have social media

01:17:29.270 --> 01:17:34.576
either. We had to pick up the phone
and call each other. So I'm so I'm

01:17:34.609 --> 01:17:42.609
aging myself here. But, you know, the
more

01:17:43.079 --> 01:17:50.265
now here is something Anne Castle did.
When Anne Castle first came on, she

01:17:50.298 --> 01:17:56.027
went, she came to Phoenix, she went
around and met with each amw member

01:17:56.060 --> 01:18:00.166
separately. I've never met her before

01:18:00.199 --> 01:18:04.446
and I'd never seen that done that.
That would be a really good piece of

01:18:04.479 --> 01:18:09.626
advice for whoever the secretary's
designee is, at least from a

01:18:09.659 --> 01:18:15.286
administration to stakeholder. But
she, I still remember I'd forgotten

01:18:15.319 --> 01:18:18.906
that she came to my office and we sat
down and talked about, you know,

01:18:18.939 --> 01:18:24.086
Creta and the program and because she
was new and she had never met me.

01:18:24.119 --> 01:18:28.357
And would that be a good strategy for
any stakeholder to try to do

01:18:28.390 --> 01:18:35.135
something like that? Yeah. You know,
the other things that helped develop

01:18:35.168 --> 01:18:40.706
those relationships now that desired
future condition process because it

01:18:40.739 --> 01:18:44.476
for if, if you didn't want to have an
opinion, then you didn't participate.

01:18:44.509 --> 01:18:50.196
But if you wanted to help guide where
that was going, you went and you be

01:18:50.229 --> 01:18:53.586
your, beat your head against the wall
and you argued with people and we

01:18:53.619 --> 01:18:59.156
got to, we got done with a, I think a
really important document. That was

01:18:59.189 --> 01:19:03.147
the first time I could, I knew of in
this program that there was a

01:19:03.180 --> 01:19:07.756
consensus document that I in that kind
of detail of magnitude that went up

01:19:07.789 --> 01:19:11.845
to the secretary. And it occurs to me,
when you're talking about desired

01:19:11.878 --> 01:19:16.196
future conditions, you're really
focused on values,

01:19:16.229 --> 01:19:20.836
which is a way to really get to know
somebody and establish a, as a

01:19:20.869 --> 01:19:25.976
relationship in a sense when you're
not just talking about data. Exactly.

01:19:26.009 --> 01:19:30.857
And that was really what structured
decision making was trying to do. But

01:19:30.890 --> 01:19:34.976
I don't think it was the right tool
for something this complicated. I

01:19:35.009 --> 01:19:38.836
think it could be a real good tool.
Like if you're gonna go build a road

01:19:38.869 --> 01:19:43.796
and you have alternatives and you
wanna, or build a transmission line and

01:19:43.829 --> 01:19:50.397
you have different routes and you can
kind of really define impacts. But

01:19:50.430 --> 01:19:54.976
it was uh II, I think I would be
interested to know whether the US GS

01:19:55.009 --> 01:19:59.675
expert believed that that was a good
use of that kind of a tool because I

01:19:59.708 --> 01:20:05.555
, I think it was overwhelming,
overwhelmingly beneficial, overwhelmingly,

01:20:05.588 --> 01:20:10.055
it was too much, it was too much
stuff.

01:20:10.088 --> 01:20:13.647
All right. Well, is there anything
else that you'd like to add that we

01:20:13.680 --> 01:20:18.706
didn't cover or any closing thoughts?

01:20:18.739 --> 01:20:22.976
No, not that I can think of. Not that
I can think of. Well, I'm very

01:20:23.009 --> 01:20:27.967
grateful, you know, I'm never shy of
words. Right. I'm very grateful that

01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:32.116
you took the time at the end of a long
and difficult day. It was very

01:20:32.149 --> 01:20:34.956
generous of you to agree to do this.
Well, thank you. And I, again, I

01:20:34.989 --> 01:20:39.826
apologize for being, for playing hard
to get.

01:20:39.859 --> 01:20:45.338
Life is busy. Yeah. Yeah. It is all
right.