WEBVTT 00:00:02.809 --> 00:00:04.809 OK. Um So you asked kind of what are some of the key points along the way 00:00:09.929 --> 00:00:17.137 ? And I would say that to categorize it, there was kind of three prongs on 00:00:17.170 --> 00:00:22.515 adaptive management that were moving forward simultaneously from about 00:00:22.548 --> 00:00:29.556 1985 forward. This was after we got the first that we first started to 00:00:29.589 --> 00:00:35.457 look at um the Grand Canyon and the operations of the dam after the high 00:00:35.490 --> 00:00:41.027 flows of 83 and 84 and 85 part of it was, and there's those three prongs 00:00:41.060 --> 00:00:48.686 are the scientific prong of it moving forward, the administrative prong of 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:52.756 it, which is the executive review committee and, and the agencies 00:00:52.789 --> 00:00:57.296 associated with that. And then the third piece would be the public piece 00:00:57.329 --> 00:01:01.576 of that because we, we were educating, we're bringing the public along 00:01:01.609 --> 00:01:08.296 with us in this and, and, and especially after NP A was started in 89 00:01:08.329 --> 00:01:13.605 after we started to have public meetings and um the public was part of the 00:01:13.638 --> 00:01:18.926 process. Now you couldn't shut them out anymore. In fact, for the first um 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:24.566 N A scoping meeting that was held in Flagstaff Arizona by the Bureau of 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:30.355 Reclamation. Got about 10 minutes into it and they had to shut it down 00:01:30.388 --> 00:01:34.087 because there was not, the fire marshal came in and said you got too many 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:39.757 people in the high school of Flagstaff High School Auditorium. That was 00:01:39.790 --> 00:01:43.936 the interest the public had in this because the public had been pushed 00:01:43.969 --> 00:01:49.316 down so long by the bureau, the old adage, the bureau build, the bureau 00:01:49.349 --> 00:01:54.385 taketh away continued. That was their philosophy. And so the p so those 00:01:54.418 --> 00:01:58.176 were the three prongs. So let me speak to that. First off, I think 00:01:58.209 --> 00:02:00.236 scientifically, 00:02:00.269 --> 00:02:06.436 the genesis of the adaptive management really began with when we brought 00:02:06.469 --> 00:02:14.316 to the National Academy of Science on board. This first report in 1987 was 00:02:14.349 --> 00:02:17.126 and it's, it was titled a review of the Bureau of Reclamation's Glen 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:24.356 Canyon Environmental Studies. It was hard on us for all the right reasons 00:02:24.389 --> 00:02:30.906 because we had started out in the planning and management of this. Um I to 00:02:30.939 --> 00:02:35.427 say uh they, they basically said you're weak on your direct your 00:02:35.460 --> 00:02:39.025 objectives and articulating them. You know, things like that the science 00:02:39.058 --> 00:02:45.017 could be um improved upon the whole process that you're moving forward on 00:02:45.050 --> 00:02:49.207 trying to do good science around this set of questions is not 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:55.146 scientifically supportable, harsh to hear if you're an agency, science 00:02:55.179 --> 00:02:59.566 scientist who's been down in 100 and 15 degree heat, pulling nets in the 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:05.245 Grand Canyon, but absolutely necessary. It made us grow up and it became 00:03:05.278 --> 00:03:09.686 better organ uh better because of that subsequent 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:12.846 review. And the, and I guess the genesis for adaptive management began 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:16.596 with that because we all of a sudden said we're not gonna be able to 00:03:16.629 --> 00:03:22.717 understand and give specifics on everything that the government wants us 00:03:22.750 --> 00:03:26.755 to give on. So we're going to figure out a way to how to do monitoring 00:03:26.788 --> 00:03:31.436 that will feed back into this. And I didn't use the terms adaptive 00:03:31.469 --> 00:03:34.816 management at that point, but that's exactly what it was. We had to start 00:03:34.849 --> 00:03:38.547 thinking of that. The next big effort that we did, we held a symposium in 00:03:38.580 --> 00:03:44.886 1990 in Santa Fe for the Colorado Ecology and Dam Management. We brought 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:50.525 together again, high level scientists and and um National Academy of 00:03:50.558 --> 00:03:57.547 Science folks to not only continue the review of what we were doing 00:03:57.580 --> 00:04:01.577 in the Colorado River, but to kind of get us over that next hump. And 00:04:01.610 --> 00:04:05.816 that's again. And now adaptive management begins to be talked about in 00:04:05.849 --> 00:04:10.517 terminology in that terminology. And then of course, we get into the, the 00:04:10.550 --> 00:04:14.376 final one they did for me and they did two more after this but river 00:04:14.409 --> 00:04:18.086 resource management in the Grand Canyon and this from a scientific is 00:04:18.119 --> 00:04:22.067 where it's embraced, full bore. You know, this is where adaptive 00:04:22.100 --> 00:04:28.745 management all of a sudden becomes the element that then ultimately gets 00:04:28.778 --> 00:04:34.825 embraced in the Grand Canyon Protection Act in section 1805. So there's 00:04:34.858 --> 00:04:38.476 this, this is the science prong of adaptive management. So you ask for 00:04:38.509 --> 00:04:44.947 where are the the kind of the documents that articulate that it's there 00:04:44.980 --> 00:04:47.026 administratively 00:04:47.059 --> 00:04:52.217 began, began the process. This report, this is the final report in 1988. 00:04:52.250 --> 00:04:55.395 So this is May of 1988. 00:04:55.428 --> 00:04:59.697 I would say the first time as the Grand Canyon Environmental Studies final 00:04:59.730 --> 00:05:04.096 report. This no, this is the executive review committee. This is what was 00:05:04.129 --> 00:05:09.836 leading us up to the EIS. So this was the executive review committee. It 00:05:09.869 --> 00:05:14.486 was all the Department of Interior and I had, 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:21.437 I had put this together because I want the I I kept getting calls from all 00:05:21.470 --> 00:05:24.166 the various agencies or regional and these, these were all regional 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:29.325 directors. These were not delegated to some staffer down in the bottom of 00:05:29.358 --> 00:05:33.776 the totem pole. The R DS would come to these meetings and be briefed by us. 00:05:33.809 --> 00:05:37.257 This is what we're doing. This is why we're doing it. Um This is the 00:05:37.290 --> 00:05:41.705 people we're coordinating with as an example when Cliff Barrett was 00:05:41.738 --> 00:05:45.817 commissioner was, was um regional director of the Bureau of Reclamation in 00:05:45.850 --> 00:05:50.606 Salt Lake City, Upper Colorado Region. Once a month, we would take the 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:56.176 Bureau jet uh arrow commander down to L A to meet with Dennis Underwood 00:05:56.209 --> 00:05:59.757 who was then head of Metropolitan Water District. You don't think that the 00:05:59.790 --> 00:06:02.567 bureau of reclamation, what we did at Glen Canyon was important to 00:06:02.600 --> 00:06:08.166 California every month we'd fly down to L A and have a one on one briefing 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:12.455 , regional director to the head of Metropolitan Water District and me 00:06:12.488 --> 00:06:16.096 telling him what we're doing on the river and what the implications were 00:06:16.129 --> 00:06:21.575 potential implications were to river management. So the administrators 00:06:21.608 --> 00:06:28.507 early on knew they had a gut feeling. Once you tip one domino on NP A and 00:06:28.540 --> 00:06:32.726 the Colorado River system, it's gonna go upstream and downstream and it 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:39.666 did not only in terms of operations but in terms of the fish programs. Now 00:06:39.699 --> 00:06:43.856 , prior to this, when I was working in flat in Fort Collins, going to 00:06:43.889 --> 00:06:49.967 graduate school, it was then called the Colorado River fish program. It's 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.705 now evolved into the recovery implementation program, but then it was just 00:06:53.738 --> 00:06:57.366 the fish program. And there were two of us, Mike Pruitt who did the 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:01.825 Colorado riverside, me who did the Green River side and we were out every 00:07:01.858 --> 00:07:05.205 month taking measurements on the Colorado River or the Green River as 00:07:05.238 --> 00:07:11.986 related to endangered fish. So ever work with Mink Chuck and Win Wendell. 00:07:12.019 --> 00:07:16.187 I know both of them quite well. I knew Wendell when he was still alive. Um 00:07:16.220 --> 00:07:20.526 He and I actually flew up to Duncan's ranch in Montana for several 00:07:20.559 --> 00:07:24.637 meetings. We like Duncan spent the summers. They have a family ranch that 00:07:24.670 --> 00:07:29.817 borders on Yellowstone National Park. Bought it in 5049 or 50. His parents 00:07:29.850 --> 00:07:34.226 did and it is right. Yellowstone is across the Madison River and there's 00:07:34.259 --> 00:07:39.697 Duncan's ranch. So we met up there for obvious reasons several times. But 00:07:39.730 --> 00:07:43.726 anyway, part of this was that the executive review committee, this is 00:07:43.759 --> 00:07:49.217 where I started giving and I would be asked to come in and make reports to 00:07:49.250 --> 00:07:54.305 these. And then they would go into discussion over how they as a group 00:07:54.338 --> 00:07:59.745 would implement what we were asking them to do in terms of flows, in terms 00:07:59.778 --> 00:08:05.757 of permitting, in terms of operational packages, et cetera. This is the 00:08:05.790 --> 00:08:11.536 group that I first gave a report to on adaptive management in 1987. 00:08:11.569 --> 00:08:16.366 So I laid it out to them as an administrator for as administrators, 00:08:16.399 --> 00:08:20.067 regional directors for these agencies. This is what the concept is all 00:08:20.100 --> 00:08:25.075 about. And we might want to start thinking about how we implement 00:08:25.108 --> 00:08:29.877 something. So the Genesis on the administrative side was 1987 and it was 00:08:29.910 --> 00:08:34.946 embraced in 88 in this document. So this is coming forward and this 00:08:34.979 --> 00:08:39.936 ultimately becomes then the NP A because these are the agencies who are 00:08:39.969 --> 00:08:44.116 the elements of the NE A, these are the federal agencies who are the 00:08:44.149 --> 00:08:49.226 action agencies for NE A. So the concept that we laid out here moves 00:08:49.259 --> 00:08:57.096 forward with that. Go ahead. Can you clarify briefly why you think the 00:08:57.129 --> 00:09:03.816 bureau of reclamation was so disinterested in doing N A compliance and 00:09:03.849 --> 00:09:07.765 doing a full blown environmental impact state? Simple easy because they 00:09:07.798 --> 00:09:12.616 had never, they never done N A on Glen Canyon before and forever David 00:09:12.649 --> 00:09:19.226 Brauer and the conservation community had just blasted the Bureau for Glen 00:09:19.259 --> 00:09:24.326 Canyon down and they knew and David Brauer was still alive at this point 00:09:24.359 --> 00:09:28.106 and doing, you know, David Brower stuff and the public was getting 00:09:28.139 --> 00:09:33.236 hammered every boatman of, of any magnitude in the Grand Canyon if they 00:09:33.269 --> 00:09:37.196 didn't have a post, a pack of postcards in the Ramo Can when they went 00:09:37.229 --> 00:09:40.956 downstream and gave it to every one of their clients who are or customers 00:09:40.989 --> 00:09:44.121 who were on the trip and said, send this into the Bureau of reclamation 00:09:44.154 --> 00:09:48.172 and we need to do a new change in the operations of the dam or we're 00:09:48.205 --> 00:09:53.682 losing our beaches. So some of the biggest champions of getting to N A was 00:09:53.715 --> 00:09:57.520 the river community forever. I'll be indebted to the boatman down there 00:09:57.553 --> 00:10:01.750 because the ones who really cared, they worked their customers hard to 00:10:01.783 --> 00:10:05.481 talk to them about the impacts the dam was having. So you talk about 00:10:05.514 --> 00:10:09.270 education, the boatman were educating the public who are on every, on 00:10:09.303 --> 00:10:14.635 every river trip. And so the bureau knowingly that knowing that Glen 00:10:14.668 --> 00:10:20.436 Canyon dam hits was having such a huge impact downstream. But also knowing 00:10:20.469 --> 00:10:23.667 they had the law of the river and all these constraints that they've lived 00:10:23.700 --> 00:10:28.667 by for years and years and years and years to operate the dam. And knowing 00:10:28.700 --> 00:10:32.427 that no other dam on the Colorado River system had gone through N A 00:10:32.460 --> 00:10:37.505 compliance if one does the dominoes start falling. So Flaming Gorge 00:10:37.538 --> 00:10:41.826 subsequently has had it. The Kani Units had N A compliance. We've had n A 00:10:41.859 --> 00:10:46.547 compliance on almost all the upper basin dams. Now that are, that feed the 00:10:46.580 --> 00:10:53.057 system? And is it, is it that the result of doing the scientific studies 00:10:53.090 --> 00:10:58.726 on the environmental impacts ends up altering dam management in a way that 00:10:58.759 --> 00:11:02.086 the bureau of reclamation simply did not. And, and you go to any of the 00:11:02.119 --> 00:11:05.125 old engineers and they'll tell you if this is an inefficient way to run 00:11:05.158 --> 00:11:09.076 the dam, the best way to run the dam. And I remember having this 00:11:09.109 --> 00:11:13.086 discussion clearly, we were doing the 25th anniversary cliff bear was 00:11:13.119 --> 00:11:17.765 regional director at the top of uh Glen Canyon Dam, Rose Monfort was 00:11:17.798 --> 00:11:23.145 governor and we're doing this big ceremony up there. And um, I had been 00:11:23.178 --> 00:11:27.875 asked to come up and say a few words and I took one of the old engineers 00:11:27.908 --> 00:11:32.196 who was there when the dam was first operated. And I said, how did you 00:11:32.229 --> 00:11:36.486 come up with what the flow releases should be at the dam? You know, 00:11:36.519 --> 00:11:40.746 because they, he said, well, depending on how much water is in the 00:11:40.779 --> 00:11:45.346 reservoir, we want to ramp it up to exactly that hot level. So we maximize 00:11:45.379 --> 00:11:47.846 the head we have on the reservoir to make the maximum amount of 00:11:47.879 --> 00:11:50.866 electricity possible. I said, well, that's great. That makes sense. How 00:11:50.899 --> 00:11:56.186 did you determine the low end? Well, if it had, if it was our desire. We 00:11:56.219 --> 00:11:59.677 would just turn it off at night, but we couldn't do that because the 00:11:59.710 --> 00:12:03.206 environmental folks would go ballistic if there wasn't some water in the 00:12:03.239 --> 00:12:08.167 river. So the whole context, we looked over the side until we saw about 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:11.326 the w you know, we could see water coming out of the base of the dam. That 00:12:11.359 --> 00:12:16.456 was our minimum flow. That's where 2000 CFS came from. It wasn't some 00:12:16.489 --> 00:12:20.096 scientific study. It was some dam engineer looking over the top of the dam 00:12:20.129 --> 00:12:23.366 and saying we gotta have something in there. Let's put a little water 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:27.717 looks like e exactly looks like enough. That's so the bur that's the way 00:12:27.750 --> 00:12:31.346 the bureau operated. And that's how the damn engineers were looking at 00:12:31.379 --> 00:12:35.186 efficiency from their mind, from their perspective. That was the smart way 00:12:35.219 --> 00:12:39.645 to run these things up and down, you know, and then you ma you because 00:12:39.678 --> 00:12:43.537 it's a peaking plant, you can spool it up real, you can spool up those 00:12:43.570 --> 00:12:47.686 generators in three minutes where Navajo generating stations takes 24 00:12:47.719 --> 00:12:52.287 hours to spool that, that generator up on the steam plant. Three minutes. 00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:56.366 You can bring it from zero to full bar. That's how they should operate. 00:12:56.399 --> 00:13:00.895 So you're saying the um the Bureau of Reclamation, which is a irrigation 00:13:00.928 --> 00:13:04.996 agency which happens to fund itself through 100 power revenue, but has 00:13:05.029 --> 00:13:09.375 completely turned into a power agency by the 19 eighties because that's 00:13:09.408 --> 00:13:13.496 what pays the bills. That's what pays the bill. It's the Glen Canyon Dam. 00:13:13.529 --> 00:13:17.895 You think of the c storage project as a huge Christmas tree. And there's 00:13:17.928 --> 00:13:20.885 a bunch of ornaments out there and those are all the small dams and such. 00:13:20.918 --> 00:13:25.196 There's one ginormous ornament that sits right on the very top. Glen 00:13:25.229 --> 00:13:31.025 Canyon Dam. That's the checkbook and that pays for everything. So, yeah, 00:13:31.058 --> 00:13:36.645 the bureau went from irrigation and they still are to, we can, this is how 00:13:36.678 --> 00:13:41.515 we fund our agency and that's exactly how they do it and that's what they 00:13:41.548 --> 00:13:45.407 try to maximize and they were very good at it for many, many years. So 00:13:45.440 --> 00:13:51.275 essentially any program, including just a research program that threatened 00:13:51.308 --> 00:13:58.765 to make their revenue interests less efficient, that threaten to make the 00:13:58.798 --> 00:14:05.635 dam less efficient as a revenue generator because electricity to cost more 00:14:05.668 --> 00:14:09.486 was something that they would resist, right? And especially on the 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:14.037 Colorado system because all those reservoirs and dams are part of the 00:14:14.070 --> 00:14:18.606 Colorado for storage project. So if you are, let's just say you were the 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.846 Klamath project, you can't tap into CRSP revenues. It has to be projects 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:28.125 that are pertinent to CRSP. That's why we have the checkbook or access to 00:14:28.158 --> 00:14:34.476 the checkbook for CRSP. And then part of this also was in 1977 when Wap A 00:14:34.509 --> 00:14:38.576 and the bureau, you know, when they got a divorce, so to speak. And then 00:14:38.609 --> 00:14:42.336 the bureau, all the power marketing piece went over to the WP A and the 00:14:42.369 --> 00:14:46.505 bureau then just became the operational piece. So there was who populated 00:14:46.538 --> 00:14:50.606 WAP A in the 1st 10 years it was just bureau people, people moved across 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:56.765 the street to W A so the mindset, the culture remained the same and it's 00:14:56.798 --> 00:15:00.086 the culture of the bureau of reclamation. We're fighting more than 00:15:00.119 --> 00:15:05.157 anything else. And that's that culture that has not even though they do 00:15:05.190 --> 00:15:09.667 have some good biologists and scientists they brought on board. They are 00:15:09.700 --> 00:15:12.946 not, they're there because they have to be there. They're not there 00:15:12.979 --> 00:15:17.106 because the bureau wants them there. You know, it's just their culture is 00:15:17.139 --> 00:15:21.346 we build dams and we operate dams. That's what we do. We don't do science 00:15:21.379 --> 00:15:25.736 , we don't do biology, we don't do this other stuff. We don't manage for 00:15:25.769 --> 00:15:29.967 multiple values and multiple resources, multi-purpose in terms of 00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:36.015 hydropower and water delivery, but not for recreation. Not for Humpback 00:15:36.048 --> 00:15:41.196 chub, not for um houseboats on Lake Powell. That's not part of our 00:15:41.229 --> 00:15:43.557 recreational 00:15:43.590 --> 00:15:49.106 job. So, is this all part of the story of the 19 sixties and 19 seventies 00:15:49.139 --> 00:15:53.807 environmental era in which other values are all changed? They all changed 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:58.427 ? Yeah. And, and that's, that goes back to uh I don't want to lose my 00:15:58.460 --> 00:16:01.217 train of thought on the third piece. But let me give you this tangent. 00:16:01.250 --> 00:16:07.196 This goes back to when I was released from the bureau in 96. The very 00:16:07.229 --> 00:16:11.255 first phone call I received the very first phone call was from David 00:16:11.288 --> 00:16:17.866 Brauer and he called up and said there's a plane ticket waiting for you at 00:16:17.899 --> 00:16:22.866 the, I think it was Delta Airlines and Flagstaff. I want you to come to 00:16:22.899 --> 00:16:25.186 Berkeley. 00:16:25.219 --> 00:16:30.116 I'm gonna start educating you. Uh What happened back in the sixties, 00:16:30.149 --> 00:16:34.677 fifties and sixties. He lived at 40 Stevenson Avenue in the hills above 00:16:34.710 --> 00:16:38.116 Berkeley. In fact, his home, I think is gonna actually be on the National 00:16:38.149 --> 00:16:42.177 Historic Register now because his kids still own it. They bought it back 00:16:42.210 --> 00:16:45.566 and they're gonna do something with it. He had a garage full of David 00:16:45.599 --> 00:16:50.287 Brower, Ansel Adams, all that history that he is part of and David being 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:55.346 part of the 10th Mountain Division Sierra Club and all that. So for seven 00:16:55.379 --> 00:16:59.467 days I sat in his garage and he would just keep bringing out stuff. He and 00:16:59.500 --> 00:17:06.107 his, his wife Ann who is still alive on all the history of the Sierra Club 00:17:06.140 --> 00:17:14.045 and his battles on dinosaur and all that piece. Um So getting educated by 00:17:14.078 --> 00:17:19.147 David Brower and understanding the context he was coming from in that 00:17:19.180 --> 00:17:23.516 world in the six f late fifties, early sixties, Echo Park, Wallace Stegner 00:17:23.549 --> 00:17:29.637 , um uh Bernard devoto, all those people and 00:17:29.670 --> 00:17:34.117 he, David had all that literature. I think most of it's in the Bancroft 00:17:34.150 --> 00:17:37.746 now. I hope it's in the Bancroft. So I know a lot of it is still in the 00:17:37.779 --> 00:17:42.936 garage because I talked to Ken Brauer, his son and Ken said there's still 00:17:42.969 --> 00:17:46.226 a bunch of stuff here. You really need to come and go through this. So I 00:17:46.259 --> 00:17:50.956 gotta do that sometime. But, um, the other piece of this though is in, 00:17:50.989 --> 00:17:56.825 after I left the bureau, I started to become outspoken a bit on how the 00:17:56.858 --> 00:18:01.726 bureau was continuing to operate the facility and how you couldn't just do 00:18:01.759 --> 00:18:06.736 periodic floods and expect that everything's gonna be hunky dory in the 00:18:06.769 --> 00:18:10.706 Grand Canyon. What we learned from the flood is that you can move sediment. 00:18:10.739 --> 00:18:16.176 But the moment you go back to operations, normal operations, those 00:18:16.209 --> 00:18:20.156 beaches are gonna go. There's only so much unless you increase us so out 00:18:20.189 --> 00:18:24.085 of all that discussion. Um and Dan Beard pushed me into this to some 00:18:24.118 --> 00:18:26.926 extent. He said, you know, you need to go out there and speak on these 00:18:26.959 --> 00:18:33.156 issues. So I did, but I began to get, um, on the Dais with Floyd Domini, 00:18:33.189 --> 00:18:38.055 often Floyd being the former commissioner of the and to his mind until he 00:18:38.088 --> 00:18:42.996 died. Floyd was the commissioner in quotes of the bureau of reclamation. 00:18:43.029 --> 00:18:47.986 The bureau's greatest days were when Floyd was commissioner and, you know 00:18:48.019 --> 00:18:52.436 , he operated in a whole different world. He, he operated in a sense that 00:18:52.469 --> 00:18:57.857 , um, he was bigger than the Secretary of Interior in many respect and he 00:18:57.890 --> 00:19:00.516 was building dams all over the place and there was no need but there was 00:19:00.549 --> 00:19:04.367 no es a nothing he had to worry about. He just had to build dams. And 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:09.256 Floyd was really good at getting people motivated to build dams. Glen 00:19:09.289 --> 00:19:14.196 Canyon being his pride and joy. So we'd often be debating about the value 00:19:14.229 --> 00:19:18.416 of Glen Canyon. Well, out of that, we would end every evening, usually at 00:19:18.449 --> 00:19:23.315 a bar someplace and we started to have a friendship out of this. So out of 00:19:23.348 --> 00:19:28.976 that Floyd invited myself and my wife to his house um in, in the State of 00:19:29.009 --> 00:19:33.835 Virginia. And so we go out and probably his house three or four times and 00:19:33.868 --> 00:19:38.055 did oral interviews and took him to lunch and he again, he started pulling 00:19:38.088 --> 00:19:44.335 out all this stuff about his side of the story. And while Stegner captured 00:19:44.368 --> 00:19:52.368 very well or captured the um trip down the Grand Canyon between Brower and 00:19:53.019 --> 00:19:58.766 Domini, there's a whole another story of John mcphee. 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.545 Yeah, I'm sorry, I got my people mixed up here, but it's, there's the 00:20:01.578 --> 00:20:05.107 whole other story that Floyd said before, I would agree to go down the 00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:10.156 Grand Canyon with Broer. He had to agree to come to a houseboat trip with 00:20:10.189 --> 00:20:14.967 me on Lake Powell for a week and they did that was never written about. 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.456 And so Floyd would haul out all these pictures and said, bro, I had a 00:20:18.489 --> 00:20:22.555 great time on that trip and we, you know, we, and so there's, there's 00:20:22.588 --> 00:20:28.825 these two iconic book ends of the conservation movement that I evolved 00:20:28.858 --> 00:20:34.627 into, but they, they were and still are the book ends. You had David 00:20:34.660 --> 00:20:39.266 Brauer on one side, you had Floyd Dominey on the other side. And then you 00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:44.416 had Martin Litton who was really the spokesperson for David. He wrote most 00:20:44.449 --> 00:20:50.196 David's stuff. Martin was a senior editor at the L A. Um What, what is the 00:20:50.229 --> 00:20:54.815 newspaper in L A Times? OK. And then he went to become the senior editor 00:20:54.848 --> 00:20:58.795 for Sunset magazine in Menlo Park, California. And he wrote all those 00:20:58.828 --> 00:21:03.565 travel pieces in Sunset. That's where he got his start in the Grand Canyon 00:21:03.598 --> 00:21:08.516 with the dories. He was writing travel pieces and you know, he just got so 00:21:08.549 --> 00:21:14.285 Martin was the, the heart and soul of David Brauer. And so that those 00:21:14.318 --> 00:21:21.315 three iconic men circled me for a bunch of years. And in fact, when Floyd 00:21:21.348 --> 00:21:25.506 turned 100 I hosted his 100th birthday party on the hill. The Department 00:21:25.539 --> 00:21:30.377 of Interior would not come to his birthday party because Floyd has a 00:21:30.410 --> 00:21:34.795 somewhat soiled reputation in the Department of the Interior. You know, he 00:21:34.828 --> 00:21:39.825 was a womanizer and a hard drinker and he came out of that era and he was 00:21:39.858 --> 00:21:43.456 a quartermaster in the army during World War Two. He was gonna get things 00:21:43.489 --> 00:21:47.666 done and he knew how to do it so they wouldn't come. But a lot of other 00:21:47.699 --> 00:21:52.196 people peripheral debt. So we had a full house on Capitol Hill for Floyd's 00:21:52.229 --> 00:21:56.617 100%. He made it to 100 and one passed away. But he was an amazing, I mean 00:21:56.650 --> 00:22:03.217 , I don't agree with him on what he did but I respect him for what he did 00:22:03.250 --> 00:22:08.026 and he was living in a certain set of, of ideals and was given a job to do 00:22:08.059 --> 00:22:11.857 and he did it, I would say the same for Brauer. Do I agree with his 00:22:11.890 --> 00:22:18.756 methods all the time now? I mean, Brauer could be hard on you and nasty 00:22:18.789 --> 00:22:23.347 just as bad as Floyd could be, but he had his own way of doing business. 00:22:23.380 --> 00:22:27.746 So to have to have the ability to have interacted with all three of those 00:22:27.779 --> 00:22:34.946 men at that point, as I was formulating, what do we do here? So while they 00:22:34.979 --> 00:22:40.206 were pulling me in this direction, science and everything else was pulling 00:22:40.239 --> 00:22:45.166 in another direction. So now we get back to the third part, which is the 00:22:45.199 --> 00:22:52.285 education piece of this. So as the EIS began to evolve out of this, it 00:22:52.318 --> 00:22:57.847 became apparent that adaptive management was going to be part of it. And 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:04.236 because of the way we were talking about it, I I started to develop papers 00:23:04.269 --> 00:23:07.906 and dialogues that could be done. So there's a number of different things 00:23:07.939 --> 00:23:11.387 here, a blueprint for Adaptive management of the Colorado record or 00:23:11.420 --> 00:23:14.825 through Glen and Grand Canyon, you know, that was doing these things all 00:23:14.858 --> 00:23:18.107 the time. Is that something you wrote back in the eighties? I don't know 00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:21.486 what the date is on this one, but this would have, like, it was, it was, 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.825 it was a typewriter, I can tell you that it was typewriter. So it had to 00:23:24.858 --> 00:23:29.325 be before I had a computer where I was 90. So, you know, things like that. 00:23:29.358 --> 00:23:32.835 Um, I, I had the Park service was talking about having adaptive 00:23:32.868 --> 00:23:37.065 management. So, and then Steve Carruthers. And have you talked to Steve? 00:23:37.098 --> 00:23:41.387 Not yet. We haven't interviewed him. You need to talk to Steve brothers up 00:23:41.420 --> 00:23:46.127 in Flagstaff. Is that where he's living now? Well, partly I he's either in 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:53.117 Austin or he's in flag. He's a, he's a man about the country now. Um But 00:23:53.150 --> 00:23:56.756 he and I actually did this document in, I don't remember who he gave this 00:23:56.789 --> 00:24:01.387 to, but um a man we called it a management opportunity. This was January 00:24:01.420 --> 00:24:07.686 92 but here I laid out options for the Colorado River Adaptive Management 00:24:07.719 --> 00:24:11.656 and use the Northwest Power Act implementation of Adaptive Management of 00:24:11.689 --> 00:24:16.035 the Colorado River. This actually looks computer. So Colorado coordinating 00:24:16.068 --> 00:24:21.746 group. Um So I started putting out documents like this. This is what got 00:24:21.779 --> 00:24:28.666 fed into Washington. And so ultimately, when you reading people like Ky 00:24:28.699 --> 00:24:33.575 Lee at this time, Adaptive Manage, I was anything I could get on this 00:24:33.608 --> 00:24:38.416 concept, I was trying to assimilate and bring back in. So ultimately, this 00:24:38.449 --> 00:24:43.266 was put together to help explain the Grand Canyon Protection Act because 00:24:43.299 --> 00:24:47.967 section 1805 of the Grand Canyon Protection Act calls for long term 00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:55.127 monitoring and such and adaptive management is the under, under tote all 00:24:55.160 --> 00:25:01.967 of that. So again, this was the education piece of members of Congress and 00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:10.000 of the political side of the agenda on why this language is in this bill 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:17.535 at this point in time and what it means to implementation for the long 00:25:17.568 --> 00:25:23.406 term. So out of the Grand Canyon Protection Act, then that's where you saw 00:25:23.439 --> 00:25:28.666 and, and you'll see this in writings. um were the Everglades when they did 00:25:28.699 --> 00:25:33.666 the, when Secretary go or Vice President Gore was working on the 00:25:33.699 --> 00:25:37.656 Everglades deal that became part of the dialogue there when they were 00:25:37.689 --> 00:25:41.785 working on the Northwest Forest plan that spotted out, it became a part of 00:25:41.818 --> 00:25:48.555 that when uh Jack Ward Thomas was for service, he began to, I so there was 00:25:48.588 --> 00:25:53.647 four or five of us around the country who were kicking the concept around. 00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:57.416 We didn't quite understand what Kylie and others were. I mean, we 00:25:57.449 --> 00:26:01.236 understood the concept but actually taking it from that concept and 00:26:01.269 --> 00:26:06.016 bringing it into action is what we were all struggling with and not, I 00:26:06.049 --> 00:26:08.456 guess struggle is a good, we were just trying to figure out what's that 00:26:08.489 --> 00:26:12.825 gonna look like. So, and then they virtually the Platte River and the 00:26:12.858 --> 00:26:16.156 Missouri River and all these other things. And now there's a whole 00:26:16.189 --> 00:26:20.156 adaptive management network that's out there that, you know, does this 00:26:20.189 --> 00:26:24.825 stuff of land managers? Well, land water resource managers, cnet, you know 00:26:24.858 --> 00:26:29.776 , it's there's a whole bunch of professionals out there who are now have, 00:26:29.809 --> 00:26:33.656 it's become a science of sorts even though it's not science. But it's, you 00:26:33.689 --> 00:26:36.516 know, it's a use of science but it's not, it's applied science, it's 00:26:36.549 --> 00:26:40.506 applied science. But so I, I guess to kind of tie it all together and then 00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:44.785 we can go back to your questions. It was a couple of things that came 00:26:44.818 --> 00:26:52.766 together. I would like to think for a reason, but it was, it was Jim Watt 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:56.936 being forced to do the ne A to being forced to do some environmental 00:26:56.969 --> 00:27:02.565 studies at Glen Canyon Dam because the public was getting upset that what 00:27:02.598 --> 00:27:05.847 was going on and they didn't feel anybody just like today. Nobody listens 00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:11.776 to us, you know, sort of thing. It was the flood of 83 that change the 00:27:11.809 --> 00:27:16.996 perspective from looking at it from a very narrow perspective on just two 00:27:17.029 --> 00:27:21.107 new generators on the river outlet tubes at Glen Canyon Dam to now be the 00:27:21.140 --> 00:27:26.377 whole operational. And I know when we played that out the first time, the 00:27:26.410 --> 00:27:29.627 regional director said, I don't know what this is, where this is gonna 00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:33.035 take us if I all of a sudden say, yeah, we wanna look at the whole 00:27:33.068 --> 00:27:41.068 operational regime where this may end, but let's go to. But getting that 00:27:41.189 --> 00:27:47.107 call from the secretary's office from um Reagan's people who were in the 00:27:47.140 --> 00:27:50.246 White House at that point saying, do you have a use for the National 00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:55.597 Academy of Sciences. And again, that money, there was $200,000. I didn't 00:27:55.630 --> 00:27:59.367 have to come up with the Department of Interior, came up with $200,000. So 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:04.476 , you know, I had the Academy of Science at my disposal and they, we had a 00:28:04.509 --> 00:28:08.916 meeting with them in the Phoenix Airport in the crown room of terminal B 00:28:08.949 --> 00:28:13.647 or term, whatever the sec, whatever terminal the delta flies out of. 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:18.035 There's, there used to be a little crown too, but that's where we held the 00:28:18.068 --> 00:28:22.266 first meeting with the Academy of Sciences. When I and then from there, 00:28:22.299 --> 00:28:27.387 they, they invited me back to Washington to pitch the study to the whole 00:28:27.420 --> 00:28:32.617 Academy of Sciences. So here I am fly from Flagstaff Arizona, roll into 00:28:32.650 --> 00:28:37.397 Washington DC. Go down to the main National Academy of Sciences Building 00:28:37.430 --> 00:28:43.397 on Constitution Avenue. There walk inside see the portrait of Abraham 00:28:43.430 --> 00:28:47.065 Lincoln who started the National Academy of Sciences in the midst of the 00:28:47.098 --> 00:28:51.956 civil war. And here I am pitching to why the Academy of Sciences should 00:28:51.989 --> 00:28:56.097 now take on the Glen Canyon of our Mouse studies and the bureau and what 00:28:56.130 --> 00:29:01.137 we're doing. And that to me was one of those one of those moments, 00:29:01.170 --> 00:29:06.206 watershed moments where all of a sudden now we got the nation and some of 00:29:06.239 --> 00:29:11.305 the best scientists in the nation looking at these issues with us, not day 00:29:11.338 --> 00:29:15.776 to day but oversight which was critical then getting to the, to the 00:29:15.809 --> 00:29:21.217 lawsuit where wa a Western Power administration was sued by the public 00:29:21.250 --> 00:29:25.555 over operational impacts of the way they operate the dam and having the 00:29:25.588 --> 00:29:30.137 Bureau have to be implicit in that because they own the dam own and 00:29:30.170 --> 00:29:35.897 operate the dam. So, and having I say this Ty Cobb, who was their attorney 00:29:35.930 --> 00:29:41.127 um for the plaintiff being the aggressive person, he still is, I assume 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:46.736 that's why President Trump got him to win that case and force the NP A 00:29:46.769 --> 00:29:50.996 compliance on the, on the contracts and ultimately on the operation of the 00:29:51.029 --> 00:29:56.835 dam to getting the operation of the dam, Eis and having George Miller and 00:29:56.868 --> 00:30:03.815 Dan Beard and Bruce Babbitt all come into this at various points to help 00:30:03.848 --> 00:30:09.117 be, be the guardian angels. They were to make sure that we weren't done 00:30:09.150 --> 00:30:13.156 away with which could have been done three or four times. They should have 00:30:13.189 --> 00:30:16.897 pulled the plug on the Glen Canyon environmental studies, but for whatever 00:30:16.930 --> 00:30:22.936 reason they didn't. And then we got to 96 and had the experimental flood 00:30:22.969 --> 00:30:30.506 and that gained a lot of credibility for the program. Um So man, it goes, 00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:33.315 and I'm proud of everyone, the science, most of the scientists who work 00:30:33.348 --> 00:30:39.006 for us. So we're all good folks and we all committed to this more as a 00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:46.656 deal for the Grand Canyon and for um checking a box on any agencies stuff. 00:30:46.689 --> 00:30:49.456 So 00:30:49.489 --> 00:30:55.696 I talk to Steve because Steve was, he was the former, um, scientist at 00:30:55.729 --> 00:30:58.887 Grand Canyon National Park 00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:03.315 in the late seventies. He was the guy that was shooting mules out of 00:31:03.348 --> 00:31:07.446 helicopters and that sort of thing. Well, there was a mule problem in 00:31:07.479 --> 00:31:13.736 Grand Canyon. Um, and I think Cleveland Amory and friends of the animals 00:31:13.769 --> 00:31:16.676 or friends or whatever it was, friends of the mules got on their case. 00:31:16.709 --> 00:31:20.467 Anyway, Steve and the park service had a separation. Steve went on to 00:31:20.500 --> 00:31:25.666 start his own company SWC A in Flagstaff, which is now nationwide almost. 00:31:25.699 --> 00:31:32.746 And, um, but Steve was, um for whatever reason and I'll forever be 00:31:32.779 --> 00:31:36.617 indebted to him. He kind of took me on as saying, you don't know much 00:31:36.650 --> 00:31:41.857 about the Grand Canyon, but I'm gonna help you. I'm gonna teach you. So he 00:31:41.890 --> 00:31:45.097 and the river community, several people in the river community embraced us 00:31:45.130 --> 00:31:49.006 and they be, they watched out, they watched out for my scientists in the 00:31:49.039 --> 00:31:53.256 canyon. If one of my crews got in trouble, they'd be the first ones to 00:31:53.289 --> 00:31:57.736 pull over and help them or they'd call me and say your crew is hung up on 00:31:57.769 --> 00:32:02.746 such and such a rock. You need to helicopter in a motor or, you know, or 00:32:02.779 --> 00:32:08.377 bring in a new survey rod or something like and the river community as we 00:32:08.410 --> 00:32:13.676 gain credibility, they embraced us. Did he ever serve as an official 00:32:13.709 --> 00:32:18.256 representative on the Adaptive Management team? Once he became a sort of a 00:32:18.289 --> 00:32:23.706 stakeholder group? I think Steve and I were both kind of ostracized from 00:32:23.739 --> 00:32:29.986 that whole pro after GCMRC came into being, we were told to go away for a 00:32:30.019 --> 00:32:34.367 lottery and some of them valid reason. And 00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:38.325 do you wanna talk about that? I don't know if it's important to the 00:32:38.358 --> 00:32:41.535 adaptive management story you're telling, it's, it's a story and it's a 00:32:41.568 --> 00:32:47.696 long story. So probably not now. But there is. And you can, if you can, I 00:32:47.729 --> 00:32:51.967 , I would definitely encourage you to talk to Steve because he was the guy 00:32:52.000 --> 00:33:00.000 who um encourage me to keep pushing and writing on adaptive management 00:33:00.989 --> 00:33:04.156 just because he knew it was gonna be different. It was gonna be a, it was 00:33:04.189 --> 00:33:09.065 gonna be a game changer. And I think if there's one thing in the EIS that 00:33:09.098 --> 00:33:12.055 is the game changer, it's adaptive management. It's the embracing of 00:33:12.088 --> 00:33:15.555 adaptive management now how it's been applied, I don't necessarily always 00:33:15.588 --> 00:33:21.357 agree with, but the original intent and the fact that it's in the Grand 00:33:21.390 --> 00:33:26.166 Canyon Protection Act and in the EIS and it's in the record of decision to 00:33:26.199 --> 00:33:31.147 me is something that we can all be proud of was Steve involved in helping 00:33:31.180 --> 00:33:37.637 to get the Grand Canyon Protection Act introduced. And no, I mean, he's, 00:33:37.670 --> 00:33:44.795 he's always peripherally out there. So I would um in terms of the fact 00:33:44.828 --> 00:33:48.035 that he and I would get together and go running up, San Fran Humphreys 00:33:48.068 --> 00:33:52.946 Peak to relieve ourselves of various stresses. Yeah, I'd say he was, he 00:33:52.979 --> 00:33:57.476 was, I would say he was probably one of the most important people who 00:33:57.509 --> 00:34:02.805 you'll never hear about in Grand Canyon De Management because of the fact 00:34:02.838 --> 00:34:08.026 that the role he's played has always been behind the scenes. But I know I 00:34:08.059 --> 00:34:11.936 never would have been able to do what I did without Steve Carruthers in 00:34:11.969 --> 00:34:15.307 the background. Absolutely would never have gotten it done because when it 00:34:15.340 --> 00:34:21.106 was the low of lows, when I was getting hammered by DC or the agencies, 00:34:21.139 --> 00:34:25.506 Steve would always find an encouraging word to say to keep the discussion 00:34:25.539 --> 00:34:31.664 going going. He and um, Dottie House who was the librarian at the museum 00:34:31.697 --> 00:34:36.235 in Northern Arizona before they let her go, she became Steve's go to 00:34:36.268 --> 00:34:40.785 person. He hired her a smart man, smartest movie ever made was to hire 00:34:40.818 --> 00:34:44.967 Dottie cause she knew she knows how to write and she can write. E I she 00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.017 can do everything that Steve needs to have written. 00:34:49.050 --> 00:34:53.546 But um, Steve and Dottie, I, I would go to the ends of the earth for them 00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:59.967 because of ultimately at the very, if you look at the core of what kept 00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:05.106 the egg incubating, it was Steve Carruthers. Absolutely. So you really 00:35:05.139 --> 00:35:09.905 need to talk to him. All right. Yeah, we, we, we have uh several more 00:35:09.938 --> 00:35:14.675 years of interviews to do and we have a growing list of people to 00:35:14.708 --> 00:35:19.195 interview and I will put him on the list. You contact him 00:35:19.228 --> 00:35:27.228 um, can I ask you to, um, think broadly about the value of the program 00:35:27.878 --> 00:35:34.166 over time? Um, it's so sometimes, um, there's a little controversy over 00:35:34.199 --> 00:35:38.236 how much money is being spent on research and what is the value of that 00:35:38.269 --> 00:35:42.695 research and what has been accomplished by the program? And I'm, I'm very 00:35:42.728 --> 00:35:47.026 interested in leaving a legacy of people who have been around for a long 00:35:47.059 --> 00:35:52.195 time, who have something to say about the value of the program over time, 00:35:52.228 --> 00:35:58.327 what it's accomplished, why should it be continued? And if so why? Well, 00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:01.566 first off, I'll answer your last question. Should it be continued? The abs 00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:07.876 , it's absolutely yes. You, you need to understand what the impacts of the 00:36:07.909 --> 00:36:14.456 dam are as much as you need to know how that spinning widget in the dam 00:36:14.489 --> 00:36:20.046 impacts how much electricity can be made. It's a, to me, it's an 00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:26.675 integrated, essential component of any management of a federal facility. 00:36:26.708 --> 00:36:33.385 Whether it's a dam, a power plant uh irrigation system, you name it, you 00:36:33.418 --> 00:36:37.776 have to have that part of it to see if what you're doing is having an 00:36:37.809 --> 00:36:41.856 effect and then understanding what you can do to either mitigate or adapt 00:36:41.889 --> 00:36:48.977 to that effect. So the answer is absolutely, it needs to be part of it. Um 00:36:49.010 --> 00:36:54.865 Should it go through periodic revisions? Absolutely. Because to be 00:36:54.898 --> 00:36:59.736 adaptive, you have to learn as you go and you're gonna learn that some 00:36:59.769 --> 00:37:07.706 things uh become more important to either the managers or the public or to 00:37:07.739 --> 00:37:14.445 the ecosystem itself than it was when you started out on the journey. So, 00:37:14.478 --> 00:37:22.026 as a case in point, um we've spent an awful lot of time, effort and money 00:37:22.059 --> 00:37:27.365 on the beaches in the Grand Canyon. Should we continue to monitor them at 00:37:27.398 --> 00:37:33.296 the intensity that they've been monitored over the past since 96 I would 00:37:33.329 --> 00:37:39.256 say probably not. We've learned a significant amount about the beaches and 00:37:39.289 --> 00:37:43.767 we know the processes that are driving their formation and lost their 00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:50.057 erosion. Um But, and we know a fair amount about what floods will do. Now 00:37:50.090 --> 00:37:53.936 , we learned a lot from 96 never having done one of those ever in the 00:37:53.969 --> 00:37:59.986 world before on purpose. So you could have scientists pre during and post 00:38:00.019 --> 00:38:03.936 evaluate it. We learned that how we did it was not necessarily the best 00:38:03.969 --> 00:38:07.736 way to do it. And we've learned from that and now have adopt adapted to 00:38:07.769 --> 00:38:12.287 that. Do we need to continue to do them? Well, I think that's, that's, 00:38:12.320 --> 00:38:16.646 that to me is more of a societal question in some respect because do you 00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:20.836 want beaches in the Grand Canyon for river runners, et cetera? I can tell 00:38:20.869 --> 00:38:24.195 you, I want beaches for the repairing. I want sediment there for the 00:38:24.228 --> 00:38:29.456 riparian zone, for the birds, for the lizards. I want them to build 00:38:29.489 --> 00:38:33.017 backwaters for fish, et cetera 00:38:33.050 --> 00:38:37.445 more than I want them for beaches, for camping on even though beaches for 00:38:37.478 --> 00:38:44.925 camping on are great. So it's, it's the societal um desires or objectives 00:38:44.958 --> 00:38:49.845 I think need to be looked at periodically and recalibrated. Should we be 00:38:49.878 --> 00:38:54.396 putting? You know, now, I think to me the more important portion that if I 00:38:54.429 --> 00:38:58.836 were there running it, I'd be looking into is the impact of climate change 00:38:58.869 --> 00:39:04.376 downstream. Because, you know, I was just up there and it was in May for 00:39:04.409 --> 00:39:07.456 NAU had asked me to come up and talk about adaptive management to a bunch 00:39:07.489 --> 00:39:11.467 of Brazilians from who are working on developing an adaptive man program 00:39:11.500 --> 00:39:15.057 for the Amazon River. So I went up and I spent the day I went up to the 00:39:15.090 --> 00:39:19.217 dam with them. We did a float. I was amazed how much that system has 00:39:19.250 --> 00:39:24.876 changed up there because of the um the aquatic plants that are in the 00:39:24.909 --> 00:39:29.477 system now that weren't there before what's lost from the system and how 00:39:29.510 --> 00:39:34.356 the riparian zone has changed part of that. A large part of that between 00:39:34.389 --> 00:39:38.876 the dam and Lee. Very exactly part of that is due to the fact we've had 00:39:38.909 --> 00:39:42.727 low reservoir elevations in Powell which has brought warmer water 00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:49.146 downstream. Some invasive species have gotten in. Well, Tam for one, I'm 00:39:49.179 --> 00:39:53.986 more worried now about quag muscle and a few other species like that. 00:39:54.019 --> 00:39:57.217 There's some salamander that Larry Stevens has found up there now that 00:39:57.250 --> 00:40:02.727 we're not sure if it's a native or if it's, it's an exotic. So, but to me 00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:08.986 the value of having the Adaptive Management program there and the fact 00:40:09.019 --> 00:40:12.606 that you're integrating it with what I would consider one of the jewels of 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:17.425 the National Park Service, Grand Canyon National Park sandwiched between 00:40:17.458 --> 00:40:21.186 two big reservoirs that are feeling direct impacts of climate change 00:40:21.219 --> 00:40:25.115 because of lower hydrology, lower water levels. To me, this is a, this is 00:40:25.148 --> 00:40:29.595 an area that we should be nationally internationally embracing for looking 00:40:29.628 --> 00:40:33.865 at it in the term, the context of changes that are coming out that are due 00:40:33.898 --> 00:40:39.126 to whether it's man or just natural process going on. We need to, we need 00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:42.405 to be able to tease these things apart. We have a rich data set to be able 00:40:42.438 --> 00:40:46.086 to do that with. So do we need to keep monitoring the beaches as much? Uh 00:40:46.119 --> 00:40:49.175 Probably not as much. I think we can get that honed down a little bit. 00:40:49.208 --> 00:40:52.706 Should we continue to put effort into the hump impact chub? Absolutely. 00:40:52.739 --> 00:40:56.287 It's an endangered fish for a reason. It's limited in where it can live 00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:59.566 in the Colorado River system. This is one spot. We wanna make sure we take 00:40:59.599 --> 00:41:03.396 care of it and get second population, well established, et cetera, et 00:41:03.429 --> 00:41:07.845 cetera. Um Should we continue to do work with the native Americans and the 00:41:07.878 --> 00:41:12.327 archaeology? Absolutely. It's there, it's there. I mean, you cannot 00:41:12.360 --> 00:41:16.256 imagine the pushback I got from the bureau reclamation for bringing the 00:41:16.289 --> 00:41:21.967 eight tribes on board. Absolutely. One of the times I was fired, my boss 00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:24.675 out of Salt Lake came down and said, yeah, we brought him down to a 00:41:24.708 --> 00:41:29.356 meeting. I think it was at Kos Movie in the Hopi. And he said I never want 00:41:29.389 --> 00:41:32.977 to go into another one of those meetings again. I think it's absolutely 00:41:33.010 --> 00:41:36.186 worthless. His words to have the tribes involved. All they're gonna do is 00:41:36.219 --> 00:41:40.467 cost us money and time and you usually you're not to interact with anymore. 00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:45.057 And, and I said, I am gonna interact with them. We're in a need a process. 00:41:45.090 --> 00:41:48.756 They are a constituent. They have a right. We've blown them off from the 00:41:48.789 --> 00:41:52.066 very beginning. You're damn right. I'm gonna keep meeting with him. He 00:41:52.099 --> 00:41:56.106 said, well, I'm gonna have to fire you if you don't. Uh Albanian. So I 00:41:56.139 --> 00:42:00.287 called uh I shouldn't say this, but I called George and George did an end 00:42:00.320 --> 00:42:03.655 around on some people. And 00:42:03.688 --> 00:42:09.666 yeah, but you can't, you can't, well, N A requires you to consult, you 00:42:09.699 --> 00:42:14.776 don't get to pick who you consult with. And there are laws requiring 00:42:14.809 --> 00:42:20.026 consultation with tribes management impacts their resources and, and the 00:42:20.059 --> 00:42:23.756 bureau never even talked to him when you think about Lake Powell, when 00:42:23.789 --> 00:42:28.956 they built Glen Canyon Dam, they had what was called a salvage study above 00:42:28.989 --> 00:42:32.336 the dam on the north side of the, what would be the reservoir? The 00:42:32.369 --> 00:42:37.217 University of, of Utah collected all the stuff they could get as the 00:42:37.250 --> 00:42:41.287 waters were literally rising as the theological archaeological cultural 00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:44.615 baskets, you know, things like South Side, it was a museum in Northern 00:42:44.648 --> 00:42:51.416 Arizona. So you had um um Ned Danson and his crews, they were just out 00:42:51.449 --> 00:42:56.106 there picking this stuff as literally as the water was rising. That was to 00:42:56.139 --> 00:42:59.717 that, to the bureau that was consultation. 00:42:59.750 --> 00:43:04.736 That's fine. You need to, you need to go to window rock and sit through an 00:43:04.769 --> 00:43:08.997 eight hour council meeting where they're speaking Navajo and maybe they'll 00:43:09.030 --> 00:43:13.767 speak English for two minutes to you at some point. But you need to be 00:43:13.800 --> 00:43:18.916 there. You need to, to be let them part of the process but nothing here. 00:43:18.949 --> 00:43:23.236 So I think that part of it continues to be important to me and I think it 00:43:23.269 --> 00:43:27.106 should be to the nation because the tribes are an integral part of this 00:43:27.139 --> 00:43:32.885 part of the, of the country of the world. So it's important. Um a related 00:43:32.918 --> 00:43:39.247 question that I had was um what, what did you want to accomplish when you 00:43:39.280 --> 00:43:44.256 were involved? But you were unable to. 00:43:44.289 --> 00:43:48.135 Well, I didn't know what I, what, what we were gonna accomplish. So I 00:43:48.168 --> 00:43:56.168 guess all of it is good. I think how it ended up in terms of structure. Um 00:43:57.219 --> 00:44:02.425 I would have done a little differently, but again, what do you mean by 00:44:02.458 --> 00:44:09.767 that? Well, I'll just take as, as an example um the um organization of the 00:44:09.800 --> 00:44:17.057 Adaptive Management Committee, there were two environmental seats, 00:44:17.090 --> 00:44:20.365 there were a whole bunch of seats for the water users, the electrical 00:44:20.398 --> 00:44:25.577 users, you know, other folks and main agency administrators, et cetera to 00:44:25.610 --> 00:44:29.836 have two people who represented the environmental community to me and 00:44:29.869 --> 00:44:33.776 there was nobody there representing the science community. They were part 00:44:33.809 --> 00:44:38.396 of the technical work group, but they weren't, they didn't have a voting 00:44:38.429 --> 00:44:43.736 seat at the committee. And when was that? Well, that was when they set it 00:44:43.769 --> 00:44:48.626 up in 96 and they were starting to set up in 96 implemented in 97. Seems 00:44:48.659 --> 00:44:51.497 like things have changed quite a bit since they've changed a bit. I mean, 00:44:51.530 --> 00:44:57.967 I don't, I think that the, the users have still more power than the 00:44:58.000 --> 00:45:03.256 conservation entities and the certainly more than the science entities do. 00:45:03.289 --> 00:45:10.885 Um, I would also say that adaptive, the, the process, like any process 00:45:10.918 --> 00:45:18.918 over time will tend to get insulated. And I think that's happened to some 00:45:19.168 --> 00:45:23.376 extent. How do you get out of the insulation? The Everglade? Well, we saw 00:45:23.409 --> 00:45:26.997 that in the Everglades. What we did is we set up that the re meandering of 00:45:27.030 --> 00:45:30.095 the Kissimmee River, that's part of it. But there's, this is actually 00:45:30.128 --> 00:45:35.577 getting more water to the ever the river grass. So the unwinding or 00:45:35.610 --> 00:45:40.695 winding, rewinding the Kissimmee was core of engineering project, but 00:45:40.728 --> 00:45:43.807 there's, there's bigger parts of that. There's the water quality of Lake 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:47.977 Okeechobee is part of that. What we do with Hoover Dike is part of that. 00:45:48.010 --> 00:45:52.227 What we do with opening up the ability to move water south to the 00:45:52.260 --> 00:45:58.456 Everglades. So opening up roads, building, um elevated roads so the water 00:45:58.489 --> 00:46:01.537 can pass through without getting pounded up. It's all part of that. But 00:46:01.570 --> 00:46:08.467 what we did there, um, was that every two years the Academy of Sciences 00:46:08.500 --> 00:46:13.767 comes in and do the broad oversight of, are we still on the right track? 00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:17.986 They're evaluating the science or they're the science and the management, 00:46:18.019 --> 00:46:22.126 you know, kind of look at it in a broad 50,000 ft view. I think you need 00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:26.916 to have periodic check ins to make sure you're still moving in the right 00:46:26.949 --> 00:46:32.365 direction that Congress directed you to do that the science is, is coming 00:46:32.398 --> 00:46:36.057 in and showing you to do and that the agencies and the public are 00:46:36.090 --> 00:46:42.405 expecting you to do. So, I think periodic resets of sorts would be a value 00:46:42.438 --> 00:46:47.206 added to the process. And certainly if you see now other places where 00:46:47.239 --> 00:46:51.327 adaptive management is being implemented more successfully, you have 00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:54.885 periodic resets. And I don't want to make that sound like you go in and 00:46:54.918 --> 00:46:58.695 change everything been maybe two years, five years, 10 years. And I don't 00:46:58.728 --> 00:47:03.517 know what the magic number is, but you come in and open yourself up to 00:47:03.550 --> 00:47:08.396 peer review just as we as scientists would. If you're writing a paper, you 00:47:08.429 --> 00:47:13.247 get outside people to give you input to make sure you're still moving in 00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:19.736 the same direction. So I think increasing um exposure of science and 00:47:19.769 --> 00:47:24.227 conservation on the adaptive management work group would be appropriate. 00:47:24.260 --> 00:47:28.416 And I think having periodic reviews would be two things right off the top 00:47:28.449 --> 00:47:32.095 of my head that I would think of a little earlier. You mentioned that 00:47:32.128 --> 00:47:35.236 there are three prongs to adaptive management. You mentioned the 00:47:35.269 --> 00:47:39.506 scientific research being one prong the administration of the program and 00:47:39.539 --> 00:47:44.606 the agency's management actions is another and then public participation, 00:47:44.639 --> 00:47:50.256 public participation in education and education. Can you, do you have any 00:47:50.289 --> 00:47:57.566 opinions about how the three of those prongs intersect are there times 00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:02.276 when one is more powerful than the other? How do you get them to work well 00:48:02.309 --> 00:48:05.206 together and integrate because you want the science to inform the 00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:10.945 management and you want the public to be satisfied and that doesn't always 00:48:10.978 --> 00:48:14.376 happen. Can you talk a little bit about the relationship of those problems 00:48:14.409 --> 00:48:19.655 ? Well, you're absolutely right. They do kind of jumpstart and some will 00:48:19.688 --> 00:48:25.807 be further ahead or further behind than others at certain times. Um Again 00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:33.840 , when we were designing this test, this experiment of sorts, uh didn't 00:48:34.570 --> 00:48:38.526 have a lot of to go on. So we're kind of making it up as we went. And 00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:42.405 that's where Steve played a really key role in this because he would kind 00:48:42.438 --> 00:48:47.896 of keep feeding ideas to a certain extent on this or questioning. He, he 00:48:47.929 --> 00:48:51.896 was sometimes like biggest critic. Uh what are we trying to do here? And 00:48:51.929 --> 00:48:57.405 why are you trying to do that sort of thing? Um But I think all of them 00:48:57.438 --> 00:49:02.376 are necessary and it's inevitable that some will have to take precedent 00:49:02.409 --> 00:49:10.409 over others at certain points in the process. Uh That being said, I think 00:49:11.398 --> 00:49:18.026 if I were to do it over again, I think the science, the scientists were 00:49:18.059 --> 00:49:22.706 hard at the beginning, but once you got them on board, they kind of got it 00:49:22.739 --> 00:49:29.356 why we're doing adaptive management. And how now that being said we still 00:49:29.389 --> 00:49:34.095 have Agency sciences who are driven by the latest co-operative Agreement 00:49:34.128 --> 00:49:38.436 requirements, et cetera. So you need to make sure there are scientists 00:49:38.469 --> 00:49:43.227 there who think at different levels, some that are at the 5000 ft, some 00:49:43.260 --> 00:49:46.807 that are at the 30,000, some at the 50,000, the value of the Academy 00:49:46.840 --> 00:49:51.115 science at the 50,000 to kind of get, make sure you're still moving in the 00:49:51.148 --> 00:49:55.026 right direction for the right reasons sort of thing. So that science needs 00:49:55.059 --> 00:49:59.736 to move forward and there needs to be bridges or intersections back and 00:49:59.769 --> 00:50:05.267 forth, the uh the administration part of it, once they were forced to 00:50:05.300 --> 00:50:12.095 embrace the concept, then you have to educate them on what it means and 00:50:12.128 --> 00:50:16.896 how it's going to impact and be applied. Part of what we ended up doing as 00:50:16.929 --> 00:50:21.425 part of the Adaptive Management Program is that every month I would get on 00:50:21.458 --> 00:50:26.626 an airplane. Um and I would or drive to get in a car, either drive to page 00:50:26.659 --> 00:50:30.467 or to fly to Montrose, Colorado where Western area Power Administration's 00:50:30.500 --> 00:50:36.155 offices were still and we would sit down monthly and we talk about this is 00:50:36.188 --> 00:50:41.155 what the science needs to have in terms of dam operations for this next 00:50:41.188 --> 00:50:45.646 month. Or, you know, we'd look out three months, but we, you know, always 00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:49.356 have a three month kind of moving forward average. And we talk about what 00:50:49.389 --> 00:50:54.307 that meant to the guy who sits at the control, at the base of at um floor 00:50:54.340 --> 00:50:59.517 nine in the control room at Glen Canyon Dam because I wanted to have them 00:50:59.550 --> 00:51:03.896 feel they were part of the process. 00:51:03.929 --> 00:51:07.807 So, and that was one of the smartest things we did is Dick White who was, 00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:13.155 who ran the power office at Glen Canyon Dam. It was his guys who were at 00:51:13.188 --> 00:51:18.997 the gauges and he had me come in and talk to him. So they knew why this 00:51:19.030 --> 00:51:23.175 bunch of crazy scientists were downstream doing this and why, what they 00:51:23.208 --> 00:51:27.717 did was important. Now, did they agree with what we've done? I would say 00:51:27.750 --> 00:51:31.345 probably 90% of the time they didn't, but they understood why we were 00:51:31.378 --> 00:51:36.336 doing it. So again, on an administrative level, you got to get to the 5000 00:51:36.369 --> 00:51:41.807 , the 20,000 and the 50,000 level, the regional directors in the executive 00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:47.276 review committee, they have to be working with you and not against you. 00:51:47.309 --> 00:51:50.506 And I made a few mistakes and had him working against me on certain 00:51:50.539 --> 00:51:54.666 occasions. So that doesn't help. And then the public in the education 00:51:54.699 --> 00:52:00.227 prong of this, the public needs to keep you need to keep the public 00:52:00.260 --> 00:52:04.736 working with you, not necessarily agreeing with you, but understanding 00:52:04.769 --> 00:52:08.876 what you're doing. We had, like I say, when we were sued twice by trout 00:52:08.909 --> 00:52:12.506 unlimited for the experimental, first experimental flood because the trout 00:52:12.539 --> 00:52:16.477 fishermen were convinced that we were gonna destroy the trout fishery 00:52:16.510 --> 00:52:21.666 below Glen Canyon Dam without flood. They had seen what happened in 8383 00:52:21.699 --> 00:52:26.077 was a whole different deal than 96. You wouldn't think 13 years would have 00:52:26.110 --> 00:52:29.796 that big a difference. But already the ecosystem had changed more because 00:52:29.829 --> 00:52:33.586 of how Arizona game and fish was managing the fishery than it had to do 00:52:33.619 --> 00:52:37.635 with the flood. The fish moved to the side. They know where to go when 00:52:37.668 --> 00:52:41.376 high water comes. They weren't being flushed downstream. But during the 00:52:41.409 --> 00:52:46.086 experimental flood, what was the effect on the trout fishery? Very little. 00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:51.376 Ultimately, no, what it affected was their food base in terms of the coa 00:52:51.409 --> 00:52:56.077 getting picked up and pushed away. Let you know that thing's five minutes 00:52:56.110 --> 00:53:02.686 slow. Ok. Ok. We got about 25 minutes before we close. Ok. Thank you. 00:53:02.719 --> 00:53:09.925 Ok. Um, so, but so the, the, but to the try of limited pieces, you gotta 00:53:09.958 --> 00:53:14.175 keep educating the public as you learn and make sure the information gets 00:53:14.208 --> 00:53:19.416 out to them, whether it's in public fluff pieces or N pr or you just, you 00:53:19.449 --> 00:53:24.727 gotta keep educating as you move along here through the process. And what 00:53:24.760 --> 00:53:29.646 do we gain when all of that is working? You get the public trusting what 00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:33.586 the government's doing. Maybe not always agreeing with it but 00:53:33.619 --> 00:53:37.206 understanding why they're doing that, there's one important part of this 00:53:37.239 --> 00:53:41.436 that I think, um though the, though the being in the government, they 00:53:41.469 --> 00:53:44.756 would say you don't need this. But I think you do, I think you need to 00:53:44.789 --> 00:53:51.467 have a point person who a spokesperson of sorts, who the public trusts 00:53:51.500 --> 00:53:56.037 being able to have that dialogue with the public and with the politicians 00:53:56.070 --> 00:54:03.807 and with the scientists. So as hard as it is for a person and if you're 00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:07.206 working in the government, the government never wants to have a person, be 00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:10.787 the point person, so to speak it, you're all part of the, the broader 00:54:10.820 --> 00:54:15.706 group. It's important that you do cultivate leadership in that, in that 00:54:15.739 --> 00:54:21.467 arena, somebody who's good, good speaking and who can communicate, it's 00:54:21.500 --> 00:54:24.936 critical that they communicate. 00:54:24.969 --> 00:54:31.606 So, so we gain trust because uh of the transparency and the collaborative 00:54:31.639 --> 00:54:35.206 engagement with stakeholders, that's an important but you have to be 00:54:35.239 --> 00:54:39.486 consistent. You can't just show up, you know, for one decision, for one 00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:43.497 meeting when you need a decision like the next day and you can't let the p 00:54:43.530 --> 00:54:48.287 if the public thinks you're just there checking a box. That's the worst 00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:52.425 thing you can do. You've got, they've gotta be, you gotta be working them 00:54:52.458 --> 00:54:57.486 way before that. And how about accomplishments? I mean, we, we've got a 00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:02.635 couple of decades of, of research and adaptive management. What would you 00:55:02.668 --> 00:55:09.695 say, um, has improved as a result of this work. We know more about the 00:55:09.728 --> 00:55:14.836 Grand Canyon. We know we have a lot more science. Now. I think there is an 00:55:14.869 --> 00:55:21.146 understanding that the agencies will need to work together. They don't 00:55:21.179 --> 00:55:27.486 always do that but that there is a forum for them to have that discussion. 00:55:27.519 --> 00:55:35.037 Um It's unfortunate in my opinion, my and this is mine alone that um 00:55:35.070 --> 00:55:39.287 so depending on the administration and who they have as their secretarial 00:55:39.320 --> 00:55:45.537 representative, sometimes it's collaborative, sometimes it's dictatorial. 00:55:45.570 --> 00:55:48.146 They want, they, they'll tell you it's collaborative but it's checking 00:55:48.179 --> 00:55:52.077 off a box and they're, you know, they're just basically this is how we're 00:55:52.110 --> 00:55:56.845 gonna do this no matter what you tell me sort of thing. So you need to be 00:55:56.878 --> 00:56:02.155 it. I would say that we've gotten more science. We do have a forum and 00:56:02.188 --> 00:56:08.146 it's proven for him now for discussion and dialogue. Um I don't believe 00:56:08.179 --> 00:56:10.675 we've fully 00:56:10.708 --> 00:56:15.736 embraced everything we should with the tribes yet part of that is we don't 00:56:15.769 --> 00:56:19.336 fund the tribes to participate and the tribes got to come up with their 00:56:19.369 --> 00:56:23.586 own bucks. Most of these tribes don't have the dollars to participate at 00:56:23.619 --> 00:56:27.115 the level of the Fish and Wildlife Service or Western Area Power 00:56:27.148 --> 00:56:32.175 Administration or Creta or people who have a checkbook and I have a ch 00:56:32.208 --> 00:56:36.037 mcneil and I think that's part of it that if I would have had something to 00:56:36.070 --> 00:56:40.686 say in this, that I'd go back and change, it would be that the United 00:56:40.719 --> 00:56:46.166 States government would support the native American groups involvement and 00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:49.256 engagement in this. You'd like to see that added, I would have put that in 00:56:49.289 --> 00:56:54.227 there just because of the role that the United States government has with 00:56:54.260 --> 00:56:59.217 our sovereign nations, the tribes just because I see that they don't, they 00:56:59.250 --> 00:57:06.845 are often given the credibility or the ability to interface at the level 00:57:06.878 --> 00:57:12.385 of Creta or the level of uh the Salt River project or any of the other 00:57:12.418 --> 00:57:17.586 stakeholders who have a trained staff who have a checkbook to travel, go 00:57:17.619 --> 00:57:22.385 to meetings to be participants. The tribes just don't have that capacity. 00:57:22.418 --> 00:57:25.646 And that was the nice thing we started with the Glen cane studies. It 00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:29.865 wasn't continued, but where the EPA money came in, we were able to bring 00:57:29.898 --> 00:57:33.787 in money from EPA to start training tribal staff because they had the 00:57:33.820 --> 00:57:39.316 tribal program and we use that to get the qualify spooled up in their 00:57:39.349 --> 00:57:44.557 natural resources department. The Hopi uh the San Juan Pa, that's the 00:57:44.590 --> 00:57:49.436 money that started those programs. All was seed money we got from EPA and 00:57:49.469 --> 00:57:55.517 we brought it in and just rolled it up and I think that's important as a 00:57:55.550 --> 00:58:00.026 result of that increasing uh involvement in collaboration with tribes. Do 00:58:00.059 --> 00:58:04.247 you think that uh operations at Glen Canyon Dam have been altered in a way 00:58:04.280 --> 00:58:08.595 that is beneficial to archaeological resources or cultural resources in 00:58:08.628 --> 00:58:14.316 the Grand Canyon? Um I would say that we're still seeing erosion of a lot 00:58:14.349 --> 00:58:18.836 of those resources, slow erosion than otherwise. It's hard to say. I mean 00:58:18.869 --> 00:58:23.706 , I think it, it varies. I remember sitting at the Salt Mine Beach below 00:58:23.739 --> 00:58:28.135 the confluence of the Little Colorado with Farrell Sekou when he was still 00:58:28.168 --> 00:58:31.945 alive and was chairman of the Hopi tribe. We had taken, we were done with 00:58:31.978 --> 00:58:37.086 doing a river trip together. Uh Mark Reisner was on a trip with us. Um 00:58:37.119 --> 00:58:41.896 Well, another tangent. Mark's first, I took Mark Reisner on his first tour 00:58:41.929 --> 00:58:47.135 of Glen Canyon Dam. This was after he had written Cadillac Desert after he 00:58:47.168 --> 00:58:51.146 had never been to Glen Canyon Dam before he wrote Cadillac Desert. So, but 00:58:51.179 --> 00:58:55.456 , and we became friends after he um wrote the book and we took him on a 00:58:55.489 --> 00:58:59.526 river trip. But anyway, Farrell and I were sitting there and you know, 00:58:59.559 --> 00:59:05.106 it's just to the, to the Hies, it's not necessarily 00:59:05.139 --> 00:59:12.945 a location or a rock or a beach, it's the area. So to him, any change, any 00:59:12.978 --> 00:59:17.776 impact the dam is having is a change that is not natural. 00:59:17.809 --> 00:59:23.086 So, yeah, it's continuing to impact their resources. Those beaches are 00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:25.356 getting smaller. 00:59:25.389 --> 00:59:30.905 Um we did, you know, as part of the EIS, we did, we, I had crews that 00:59:30.938 --> 00:59:34.566 literally walked from Glen Canyon Dam to Lake Mead on both sides of the 00:59:34.599 --> 00:59:39.517 river. Every foot from Glen. Think about that Glen and, and I had Jan 00:59:39.550 --> 00:59:43.885 Balsam in the park service, hire people to do this. But that's, they 00:59:43.918 --> 00:59:46.756 walked it. Every, 00:59:46.789 --> 00:59:49.945 I didn't even think that was possible. You wouldn't think that they did it. 00:59:49.978 --> 00:59:53.626 And we had boats. I had so many trips on the water. It was just amazing. 00:59:53.659 --> 00:59:58.206 But, um, you know, that level of science has never been done anywhere 00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:03.666 else before. So, you think about it, we've, I, is it everything that it 01:00:03.699 --> 01:00:10.546 could be? No? Is it better than it would have been? Absolutely. Does it 01:00:10.579 --> 01:00:15.166 have promise for the future? Of course. Yeah, we just gotta keep building 01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:20.595 on it and keep working it and not let it just become a checkbox, in my 01:00:20.628 --> 01:00:24.615 opinion. That's not what we intended when we put the Grand Canyon 01:00:24.648 --> 01:00:27.876 Protection Act together. It's called the Grand Canyon Protection Act for a 01:00:27.909 --> 01:00:35.909 reason to protect the Grand Canyon for a long, for forever perpetuity. 01:00:37.059 --> 01:00:42.916 I think that's a great place to end the interview, don't you? I do pretty 01:00:42.949 --> 01:00:44.949 good.