WEBVTT 00:00:01.100 --> 00:00:05.795 This is Paul, her and Jen Sweeney of Arizona State University 00:00:05.828 --> 00:00:11.046 interviewing a longtime member of the Technical working group and Adaptive 00:00:11.079 --> 00:00:15.306 Management working group of the Glen Kenny Dam Adaptive Management Program 00:00:15.339 --> 00:00:21.247 in Peach Springs, Arizona on August 14th, 2018. 00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:25.396 Um First, can you start by telling us the positions that you held in the 00:00:25.429 --> 00:00:29.887 Adaptive Management Program and the years in which you participated? Sure. 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:37.920 Um From 1994 to 2007, I was a principal investigator um leading wildlife 00:00:38.359 --> 00:00:46.167 investigation monitoring in Lower Grand Canyon. From 1997 the president 00:00:46.200 --> 00:00:54.200 that represented been a representative on the technical work group and 00:00:54.200 --> 00:01:00.417 from 1997 to 2017, I was an AM wig alternate. 00:01:00.450 --> 00:01:07.936 And can you tell me how your participation in the program changed over 00:01:07.969 --> 00:01:12.197 time, the kinds of work that you did the kinds of programs you were 00:01:12.230 --> 00:01:17.977 involved in? Uh when I first started here, we were receiving substantial 00:01:18.010 --> 00:01:24.525 funding to monitor a whole host of resources, fish, wildlife, vegetation, 00:01:24.558 --> 00:01:31.516 uh recreation. Um And so that was in 1994 when they established the Grand 00:01:31.549 --> 00:01:37.885 Canyon Monitoring and Research Center in the G CD in 1997 all that funding 00:01:37.918 --> 00:01:45.126 got shifted to GCMRC and our funding went down the toilet. Um, so that was 00:01:45.159 --> 00:01:49.326 a big one of the biggest changes that has occurred since the time I've 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:57.359 been here. And then, so after 97 and the tribes were then giving, um, I 00:01:57.989 --> 00:02:03.337 don't know exactly what year it started, but in somewhere around then they 00:02:03.370 --> 00:02:08.725 decided to give each 5 $95,000 to participate in the program and then 00:02:08.758 --> 00:02:14.856 $35,000 for monitoring. So we were getting a little bit of money. So I was 00:02:14.889 --> 00:02:20.745 able to continue my wildlife and education monitoring program until about 00:02:20.778 --> 00:02:27.495 2007. Um just on $35,000. And that was doing five trips on the lower river. 00:02:27.528 --> 00:02:31.906 We had our own boats, our own boatman, we had four biologists and three 00:02:31.939 --> 00:02:38.047 fisheries biologists. And so we were able to keep that going. Then, uh 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:45.416 around 2007, the cultural program here, um decided they needed that money 00:02:45.449 --> 00:02:50.536 to do their annual monitoring river trips. And so that money went away 00:02:50.569 --> 00:02:57.146 from me and I quit doing that work. Uh um So for, for what percentage of 00:02:57.179 --> 00:03:01.946 the time that you've been involved in the program? Have you been serving 00:03:01.979 --> 00:03:06.946 as a kind of either formal or informal representative of the interests of 00:03:06.979 --> 00:03:13.906 the wallaby tribe? Oh, for almost 100%. Ok. All right. By the way, I 00:03:13.939 --> 00:03:19.177 should mention that this particular interviewee has requested um to remain 00:03:19.210 --> 00:03:23.255 anonymous uh for this interview and that's why we're not mentioning his 00:03:23.288 --> 00:03:30.696 name in the introduction. Um OK, so um significant events that have 00:03:30.729 --> 00:03:36.495 occurred during your time involved in the program that, you know, had a, 00:03:36.528 --> 00:03:41.536 an impact both on the program itself and on your participation in the wall 00:03:41.569 --> 00:03:46.305 pipe tribes participation. Well, as I mentioned previously, just the 00:03:46.338 --> 00:03:50.505 establishment of the Grand Canyon Monitoring and Research Center was 00:03:50.538 --> 00:03:57.936 probably the biggest event that affected our activities here. Um 00:03:57.969 --> 00:04:02.846 Other than that, we've had pretty consistent representation. Um Loretta 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:07.636 Jackson Kelly was the AMW representative for many, many years until 00:04:07.669 --> 00:04:12.416 recently. Um Don Hubs has been the AMW representative the last couple of 00:04:12.449 --> 00:04:17.046 years and I've been the technical work group representative that whole 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:22.717 time. So we've had pretty consistent representation. Um We have, we have 00:04:22.750 --> 00:04:27.836 good support from the administration and we do an annual monitoring river 00:04:27.869 --> 00:04:34.055 trip that the cultural department does. And uh and they, I think they have 00:04:34.088 --> 00:04:39.276 about 35 sites that they monitor, you know, every couple two or three 00:04:39.309 --> 00:04:43.986 years and they, they have da data sheets where they record what the 00:04:44.019 --> 00:04:48.575 condition of the site is and what's affecting it is the human visitation, 00:04:48.608 --> 00:04:54.726 is it uh erosion or whatever, that kind of stuff? So there's been a lot of 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:59.526 consistency and again, the biggest thing was when they established the 00:04:59.559 --> 00:05:04.726 Grand Canyon Monitoring and Research Center as far as our activities. So 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:11.325 what are the key interests and concerns of the wall tribe that motivates 00:05:11.358 --> 00:05:15.687 their, you know, desire to be, uh, so consistently involved in the program 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:21.387 over time. Well, one thing that's important to, I think all the tribes are 00:05:21.420 --> 00:05:26.596 the condition of the riparian resources, the vegetation, the wildlife, the 00:05:26.629 --> 00:05:32.687 birds, the small mammals, the reptiles and, and for some tribes, even the 00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:36.356 fish, I don't think the fish are that important to the wall pipe tribe 00:05:36.389 --> 00:05:42.967 that as much but other tribes they are. Um So we just want to know the 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:47.245 health of our land because being on 100 and eight miles of the Colorado 00:05:47.278 --> 00:05:51.616 River is the northern boundary of the reservation. So they kind of feel 00:05:51.649 --> 00:05:55.437 like that's their resources down there and they want to know how things 00:05:55.470 --> 00:06:00.515 are going. And that's why the one the they were very supportive of our 00:06:00.548 --> 00:06:06.015 wildlife and vegetation monitoring activities because we, we were giving 00:06:06.048 --> 00:06:10.926 them a report on how are things doing. And I think that was great that we 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:17.026 were able to do that for whatever 14 years because we established AAA 00:06:17.059 --> 00:06:22.346 database, a baseline database that in the future if something changes 00:06:22.379 --> 00:06:26.495 operations of the dam, climate change or who knows what and we get some 00:06:26.528 --> 00:06:31.495 more funding, unable to repeat that work, we can compare what was going on 00:06:31.528 --> 00:06:35.697 back then to what potentially is going on in the future. Do you know 00:06:35.730 --> 00:06:40.336 whether um resource professionals working for the tribe or even uh elders 00:06:40.369 --> 00:06:44.976 of the tribe? Had noticed uh changes in the river because of Glen Canny 00:06:45.009 --> 00:06:49.895 Dam prior to the creation of this Adaptive Management program, 00:06:49.928 --> 00:06:57.627 I don't know that, but we have 30 years of interview data with tribal 00:06:57.660 --> 00:07:02.687 elders on the river about certain places that I and I think I talked to 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:09.197 you about this archive program. Um So that's all been digitized and it's 00:07:09.230 --> 00:07:14.346 being entered into a database. But my involvement in that project and Don 00:07:14.379 --> 00:07:19.036 Hub's involvement in that project is no longer 00:07:19.069 --> 00:07:24.967 needed apparently. And so it's been taken over by other interests here in 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:29.687 the department. But hopefully, that's the kind of information that is in 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:35.245 those interviews about places, you know, and I, I don't, I don't think 00:07:35.278 --> 00:07:39.575 there's data from before the dam's presence, but I think there's data 00:07:39.608 --> 00:07:42.726 starting around 1989 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:50.759 and going through to the present day. So, um do you remember um back when 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:57.637 the program was just being created and stakeholders were being identified 00:07:57.670 --> 00:08:03.515 for participation in, in the AM Wagon twig. Do you remember um anything 00:08:03.548 --> 00:08:11.387 about how the Walla tribe um got involved to, to sort of what extent um 00:08:11.420 --> 00:08:15.726 were they enthusiastic about joining one of these federal advisory 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:19.736 committees? You know, those can be kind of, you know, boring and difficult 00:08:19.769 --> 00:08:23.926 and complex and technical and sometimes getting travel representation can 00:08:23.959 --> 00:08:28.627 be complex and difficult. What do you remember about those early days that 00:08:28.660 --> 00:08:34.106 actually our participation was initiated prior to my starting here? I 00:08:34.139 --> 00:08:40.287 think it was initiated in 1989. And I my predecessors and people that I 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:45.967 came to work for my bosses, they were actively involved in getting the 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:51.366 seat at the table and they had to be very forceful and very outspoken to 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:58.717 get representation on the, on the AM wig. Do you think that um that need 00:08:58.750 --> 00:09:04.135 to be uh forceful and persistent um has carried through to the present or 00:09:04.168 --> 00:09:08.427 was that just at the beginning to get a seat at the table? Um It required 00:09:08.460 --> 00:09:12.375 that extra effort. But after that is a smooth sailing. No, I think it's 00:09:12.408 --> 00:09:19.856 continued to, to this day. Yeah, we've, and it, it none the questions of 00:09:19.889 --> 00:09:23.765 what, what surprised you when you got into this program. What surprised me 00:09:23.798 --> 00:09:29.467 was how poorly tribes were treated and looked upon like we were minorities 00:09:29.500 --> 00:09:37.066 in this and that didn't have an equal um an equal um 00:09:37.099 --> 00:09:41.976 stake in the program. Well, and you felt that from the beginning of your 00:09:42.009 --> 00:09:46.025 involvement and continuing continuing, it's gotten better over the last 00:09:46.058 --> 00:09:51.677 few years because all the tribes are standing together now and saying, you 00:09:51.710 --> 00:09:55.807 know, this is what, how we want to be treated in the program. Our, in our 00:09:55.840 --> 00:10:00.736 knowledge that these tribal members have about the resources on the river. 00:10:00.769 --> 00:10:06.265 We, we need to integrate that knowledge into the activities of all the 00:10:06.298 --> 00:10:12.025 investigators. Can you be a little more specific about some experiences 00:10:12.058 --> 00:10:18.537 that you had um that gave you the sense that your perspectives were not 00:10:18.570 --> 00:10:23.986 being fully respected or integrated. Well, I can remember specifically 00:10:24.019 --> 00:10:28.956 this was five or six years ago and it was a, I think, a toy meeting, I 00:10:28.989 --> 00:10:35.456 believe. And we were just discussing an issue and I'd had my hand up 00:10:35.489 --> 00:10:41.106 almost for hours and I was never called upon and they ended the discussion 00:10:41.139 --> 00:10:46.467 without ever getting to say what I wanted to say. You know, I was just 00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:52.206 like, really? So it's, it's like discrimination I felt discriminated 00:10:52.239 --> 00:10:56.775 against for ever since I've been in the program and it is getting better, 00:10:56.808 --> 00:11:04.808 but it's like, like we're not on an equal level or something. Um Do you 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:10.427 think that there is a hierarchy among the stakeholder groups? Uh or is it 00:11:10.460 --> 00:11:17.226 just, uh you know, I, um you know, most of the groups were established 00:11:17.259 --> 00:11:21.956 when I first came in. So I'm not, I don't know exactly the relationships 00:11:21.989 --> 00:11:25.275 between them all, but it does seem to be kind of like clicks in the 00:11:25.308 --> 00:11:31.125 program, like the States kinda hang together and other, other groups hang 00:11:31.158 --> 00:11:36.635 together. But um you know, it's not necessarily bad. It's just um that's 00:11:36.668 --> 00:11:41.696 just kind of the way it is and the way it evolved. So you mentioned um 00:11:41.729 --> 00:11:46.537 that the tribes more recently have um created a little bit of their own 00:11:46.570 --> 00:11:50.807 click to, to gain some power and influence. Can you talk a little bit more 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:56.116 about how and why that happened? And what, what the benefits of that have 00:11:56.149 --> 00:12:01.625 been. Well, I think certain issues have pushed the tribal perspectives to 00:12:01.658 --> 00:12:07.407 the forefront, like killing of mechanical removal of fish for some tribes 00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:12.917 , especially the Zuni and their Hopi. I mean, it, it, it affects the 00:12:12.950 --> 00:12:19.217 health of their communities. And so I think, you know, people like Kurt 00:12:19.250 --> 00:12:23.226 Danowski have been very vocal in saying no, it's not. Ok, you can't do 00:12:23.259 --> 00:12:29.236 this. And so that's kind of brought the tribes to a rallying point that we 00:12:29.269 --> 00:12:35.336 need to be heard and, and we're not going away, but I think we felt that 00:12:35.369 --> 00:12:40.298 way for a long time. I don't think that we've been as vocal until recently. 00:12:40.428 --> 00:12:42.428 Um Have there been different periods in which there are different um 00:12:46.298 --> 00:12:54.298 leaders in the Am Wig and Twig program that have been some more willing to 00:12:54.399 --> 00:13:01.246 facilitate tribal involvement and others? Less so, or is it kind of always 00:13:01.279 --> 00:13:08.366 the same? I think um there's been certain people that have supported 00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:13.885 tribal participation more than others and I can't think of specific names 00:13:13.918 --> 00:13:18.476 right now. But, and then I think there's certain people that still don't 00:13:18.509 --> 00:13:23.356 think that we should be in the program. At least I've been told that by 00:13:23.389 --> 00:13:30.145 others and, and it's for whatever the tribes have lived on this land for 00:13:30.178 --> 00:13:34.297 thousands of years, you know, it was their land before the park took it, 00:13:34.330 --> 00:13:41.096 you know, before that was established. And so it's like they are the most 00:13:41.129 --> 00:13:47.537 um of anybody that should be um working with the resources and being heard 00:13:47.570 --> 00:13:52.736 , it should be the tribes because this, they have a way closer association 00:13:52.769 --> 00:13:58.566 to the river and the resources than Western scientists do. 00:13:58.599 --> 00:14:04.746 So. Um I'm thinking about um travel perspectives and travel issues, some 00:14:04.779 --> 00:14:09.135 people. So the folks that are represented on AM wig are often referred to 00:14:09.168 --> 00:14:12.596 as stakeholders and you know, in the states are one stakeholder and the 00:14:12.629 --> 00:14:17.505 recreational community has their representatives. Stakeholders, fisheries 00:14:17.538 --> 00:14:23.297 biologists have their, do you think that tribes are in that sense, a kind 00:14:23.330 --> 00:14:29.076 of a stakeholder group with a, with a coherent set of interests and issues 00:14:29.109 --> 00:14:35.395 or are they different than these other stakeholder groups? And 00:14:35.428 --> 00:14:42.875 I, I think the tribes, I have a lot of similar interests and concerns 00:14:42.908 --> 00:14:46.616 about resources as other groups, but I think they have a way more 00:14:46.649 --> 00:14:51.606 fundamental relationship with the canyon, way more fun and I have only 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:58.427 recently really appreciated the extent to which that is true. Um Hearing 00:14:58.460 --> 00:15:04.917 about the creation stories of the Hopi and the Zuni where individuals 00:15:04.950 --> 00:15:08.226 actually turned into the fish and individuals turned into the other 00:15:08.259 --> 00:15:13.606 organisms. The wall creation story is down by Spirit Mountain in the lower 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:19.616 Colorado River area and it's a similar story but it's, it's not in the 00:15:19.649 --> 00:15:26.525 canyon. But um yeah, so fundamentally, those are their relatives down 00:15:26.558 --> 00:15:32.246 there and that's different than any other stakeholder group. This might 00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:36.755 seem speculative then. But could you 00:15:36.788 --> 00:15:42.775 paint a picture for us of what it would look like if the tribes had uh an 00:15:42.808 --> 00:15:49.395 appropriate amount of respect and influence in, you know, the evolution of 00:15:49.428 --> 00:15:52.746 the Adaptive Management Program and the decision making process, if 00:15:52.779 --> 00:15:56.395 instead of being marginalized, they were central to the process, what do 00:15:56.428 --> 00:15:59.936 you think it would look like? Well, I think there'd be a lot more 00:15:59.969 --> 00:16:05.336 participation in all of the resource monitoring uh that goes on from the 00:16:05.369 --> 00:16:11.537 physical resources, sediment and everything to the biological. Um I think 00:16:11.570 --> 00:16:18.765 there'd be a lot more elder involvement in the decision making process of 00:16:18.798 --> 00:16:22.696 what type of work should go on down there. What type shouldn't go on down 00:16:22.729 --> 00:16:28.586 there? How would that be facilitated the elder involvement just through a 00:16:28.619 --> 00:16:33.177 funding mechanism, being able to get those people to, to meet the meeting 00:16:33.210 --> 00:16:38.066 , getting people to come out here and go down to Diamond Creek and talk 00:16:38.099 --> 00:16:43.005 about issues and stuff like that. Anything else that would change if there 00:16:43.038 --> 00:16:51.038 was what you would consider to be full participation 00:16:51.529 --> 00:16:59.076 at this point? I can't really, really say, but um just how might that be 00:16:59.109 --> 00:17:03.746 facilitated any ideas along those lines besides the additional funding 00:17:03.779 --> 00:17:09.026 mechanism? Let me explain what you mean by that. A little bit more. Well, 00:17:09.059 --> 00:17:14.397 you have to have money to do anything pretty much stuck. We pay our elders 00:17:14.430 --> 00:17:18.246 when we take them on the river trip, we pay them so much a day and 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:23.685 actually for a two week river trip that ends up being about $30,000. 00:17:23.718 --> 00:17:30.835 And so just to get the people involved, they have to be compensated. And 00:17:30.868 --> 00:17:36.186 of course, the logistics are expensive and all that kind of stuff. But, 00:17:36.219 --> 00:17:40.456 and our, our government doesn't really get, our government leaders doesn't 00:17:40.489 --> 00:17:45.776 really get involved with the ongoing aspects of the Glen Canyon program. 00:17:45.809 --> 00:17:49.746 And I think that that would be the tribal council could have a lot of good 00:17:49.779 --> 00:17:56.776 input into this decisions and the decision making process. And the, and 00:17:56.809 --> 00:18:01.976 let people know what their views on issues are. Do you think um their um 00:18:02.009 --> 00:18:07.717 modest level of involvement is because of funding shortages or our 00:18:07.750 --> 00:18:10.545 different priorities? 00:18:10.578 --> 00:18:17.325 I think, well, to me, it seems like they've entrusted us with representing 00:18:17.358 --> 00:18:22.137 the tribe and so they feel like they're in good hands and they have to 00:18:22.170 --> 00:18:27.426 deal with a million other issues all the time. And so I, I think that's 00:18:27.459 --> 00:18:31.795 the way I look at it that there. But I think it would be valuable if they 00:18:31.828 --> 00:18:38.906 could have more input. Can you think of a few instances in which uh wai 00:18:38.939 --> 00:18:45.377 tribal input and representation yielded some, you know, significant 00:18:45.410 --> 00:18:53.147 beneficial outcome? A few examples of that? Um 00:18:53.180 --> 00:19:01.180 I'm sure there's plenty but um 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:09.357 well, well, I don't know that it's really affected it, but we've always 00:19:09.390 --> 00:19:13.795 talked about um things like high flow experiments and how they impact the 00:19:13.828 --> 00:19:18.666 resources of the tribe. And there really hasn't been a, a response by the 00:19:18.699 --> 00:19:23.717 government or anyone to actually listen to our voice and say, oh, you're 00:19:23.750 --> 00:19:28.186 right. We just caused you a half a million dollars a by ruining that flag. 00:19:28.219 --> 00:19:34.857 And, uh, that's a place where we could have a beneficial outcome, not 00:19:34.890 --> 00:19:38.486 only for the tribe, but for the resources because every time you do a 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:45.486 flood, all that San ends up down Wallie land. Uh, and so, and I don't know 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:49.835 what that does is to the fisheries or to a lot of the other resources. But 00:19:49.868 --> 00:19:54.597 , and no, and nobody, that's another big point is nobody. Look, this does 00:19:54.630 --> 00:19:58.426 much work below Diamond Creek. They're just starting to do a little bit 00:19:58.459 --> 00:20:02.746 with now that they found a bunch of humpback chub down there. Oh really? 00:20:02.779 --> 00:20:05.467 Yeah. Well, now they're paying attention now they're paying a little bit 00:20:05.500 --> 00:20:12.746 more species. But so there's, there's a lot of opportunities for a tribe 00:20:12.779 --> 00:20:17.266 to get beneficial outcomes. It's just a lot of times it hasn't happened 00:20:17.299 --> 00:20:21.946 yet. Well, it's interesting that you mentioned um high flow events as 00:20:21.979 --> 00:20:26.476 potential negative impact on travel resources because the program's 00:20:26.509 --> 00:20:33.377 general orientation towards HFES as they clone acronym is that this, we 00:20:33.410 --> 00:20:37.776 have to do this to try to recover some of the lost beaches and sand bars 00:20:37.809 --> 00:20:41.906 upstream. I've never heard anybody mention anything about the impacts of 00:20:41.939 --> 00:20:46.416 the high flow events downstream. And you know, yeah, they're trying to 00:20:46.449 --> 00:20:52.766 build beaches up in Marble Canyon and, and up there and 90% of the sand 00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:56.666 ends up down here instead of all up on the beaches and say it causes 00:20:56.699 --> 00:21:01.857 problem. You know, we have a river up river running operation. We have to 00:21:01.890 --> 00:21:06.377 replace lower units on boat motors because they're hitting sandbars all 00:21:06.410 --> 00:21:11.325 the time and other equipment damages. And then I don't know if you're 00:21:11.358 --> 00:21:16.236 familiar, but we have tourist destinations on the river where people get 00:21:16.269 --> 00:21:20.085 flown in a helicopter and we have docks down there and stuff and those 00:21:20.118 --> 00:21:24.656 docks get tore up all the time during the high flow event. And that was 00:21:24.689 --> 00:21:29.006 kind of things. Um, have you been able to bring those issues up? We've 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:34.035 brought those issues up repeatedly and we don't, what's the response? Well 00:21:34.068 --> 00:21:39.065 , usually little or no response. And then we kind of have a problem 00:21:39.098 --> 00:21:43.305 internally. It's because 00:21:43.338 --> 00:21:45.967 I don't know if you're familiar with all of that. We have the tribal 00:21:46.000 --> 00:21:48.666 government and then we have the corporation, the Grand Canyon Resort 00:21:48.699 --> 00:21:55.585 Corporation. And so they run all the tourism activities too. Yeah. And so 00:21:55.618 --> 00:21:59.467 they don't want to divulge any financial information so they don't want to 00:21:59.500 --> 00:22:04.176 tell what the financial costs of a float is to them, even if they could 00:22:04.209 --> 00:22:11.085 get, even if they could get compensated. Which to me is interesting. Yes. 00:22:11.118 --> 00:22:17.946 So there's different hurdles to be overcome that, 00:22:17.979 --> 00:22:22.085 well, you know, that reminds me that there isn't always a win, win outcome 00:22:22.118 --> 00:22:26.575 in every natural resource decision that comes up. I wonder if you can talk 00:22:26.608 --> 00:22:30.035 a little bit more about instances because this is the first time I've 00:22:30.068 --> 00:22:35.217 heard this in one of our um interviews so far that a really sort of 00:22:35.250 --> 00:22:39.406 central goal of the Adaptive management program may be good for one set of 00:22:39.439 --> 00:22:43.847 stakeholders and not good for another set of stakeholders. Have you run 00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:49.236 into any situations like that with other decisions or other resource 00:22:49.269 --> 00:22:54.295 management issues that people are talking about where it's not easy to 00:22:54.328 --> 00:22:59.526 determine what the right path is because it has different impacts on 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:04.877 different stakeholders. Well, I think, and I I haven't documented this or 00:23:04.910 --> 00:23:09.196 don't know for sure, but there's a lot of potential to erode 00:23:09.229 --> 00:23:14.006 archaeological sites down on the lower river every time you run a flood. 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:20.897 And uh the very, I was here for the very first flood in 1996 and, and 00:23:20.930 --> 00:23:25.367 everybody thinks in the back of their mind, the river stops at Separation 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:30.206 Canyon. Um Where, where John Wesley Powell pulled out, you know, that's he 00:23:30.239 --> 00:23:34.647 pulled out after that, but that's where the two people left. Yeah. OK, 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:38.476 because that's where the influence of Lake Mead comes in. Uh But we, when 00:23:38.509 --> 00:23:43.986 they ran that first flood we documented. So that's um river mile 240. And 00:23:44.019 --> 00:23:48.526 then we documented that the flood actually affected resources all the way 00:23:48.559 --> 00:23:51.746 down to mile 254. 00:23:51.779 --> 00:23:55.565 And so we would get bearing in the vegetation, we would get scattering and 00:23:55.598 --> 00:24:01.166 the vegetation all the way down there. And there's, you know, these are 00:24:01.199 --> 00:24:05.285 some, there's TCP S down there and there's archaeological sites and I 00:24:05.318 --> 00:24:09.795 don't know if, if they've been damaged. But, um, there's potential for 00:24:09.828 --> 00:24:15.166 that. What kind of management of, of the dam, uh management actions, 00:24:15.199 --> 00:24:21.266 adaptive management actions of Glen Cannon Dam uh would be helpful to the 00:24:21.299 --> 00:24:25.426 goals of the Wall tribe. 00:24:25.459 --> 00:24:28.887 Yeah, that's a hard one. 00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:34.815 Uh Well, things that reduce the, the damage to resources in the lower 00:24:34.848 --> 00:24:42.848 canyon, the, the tourism operations. Um and what you know, what, you know 00:24:43.348 --> 00:24:48.647 , the L temp with the L temp rod, we have a greater potential for many 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:54.676 more HFES in the future and but never evaluated what impact that might 00:24:54.709 --> 00:24:59.516 have on all of our resources. L temp being long term experimental imagine 00:24:59.549 --> 00:25:04.295 management plan. And that's when they make decisions about high flow 00:25:04.328 --> 00:25:10.315 events and when the timing of them, what they actually look like, how, how 00:25:10.348 --> 00:25:16.075 high the flood is and all that good stuff. So, um even without high flow 00:25:16.108 --> 00:25:20.686 events, there's gonna constantly be sediment coming down the river and 00:25:20.719 --> 00:25:27.736 depositing at the upper end of slack water behind Hoover Dam. Um is this 00:25:27.769 --> 00:25:33.026 uh what's the long term perspective of the tribe on dealing with the 00:25:33.059 --> 00:25:37.617 increasing sedimentation along the river up the river? Well, there's 00:25:37.650 --> 00:25:42.535 potential for dredging and I've already, I've suggested that in the past, 00:25:42.568 --> 00:25:48.226 you know, maybe we need to look at some dredging going on. Um, and that 00:25:48.259 --> 00:25:53.436 doesn't give much mileage with the government or anybody really, is 00:25:53.469 --> 00:25:57.016 anybody opposed to it? Or people just, you know, don't wanna talk about 00:25:57.049 --> 00:26:01.877 that option. They don't really want to talk about that. Uh, um, there's 00:26:01.910 --> 00:26:06.357 been all kinds of crazy things, you know, pump the sediment back up in the 00:26:06.390 --> 00:26:10.906 stream, you know, that would be expensive and that would be expensive. But 00:26:10.939 --> 00:26:14.926 , you know, there's talking about temperature control devices and stuff 00:26:14.959 --> 00:26:20.686 like that, that are very expensive or load it in the trucks and drive it 00:26:20.719 --> 00:26:24.847 back up there or something. You know, there's been a lot of speculation or 00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:28.065 talk about what kind of things could be done, but none of us has been 00:26:28.098 --> 00:26:31.085 addressed really seriously. 00:26:31.118 --> 00:26:35.627 Um Let me go back to the standard list of questions there. So I went in 00:26:35.660 --> 00:26:39.467 here about um key reports and documents that you think were really 00:26:39.500 --> 00:26:43.986 important to the program and its evolutions. Yeah, I can, I can address 00:26:44.019 --> 00:26:49.186 that. Um I worked on several committees that um put together. I don't know 00:26:49.219 --> 00:26:52.276 if you've heard of them desired future conditions for different resources 00:26:52.309 --> 00:26:57.877 . I thought that was a very important effort um that the strategic plan 00:26:57.910 --> 00:27:02.256 was written that doesn't get me mileage anymore. Nobody brings these out 00:27:02.289 --> 00:27:06.776 of the closet and looks at them anymore. When were those two produced? 00:27:06.809 --> 00:27:12.156 Late nineties, early two thousands. Ok. We'll pull them out for 00:27:12.189 --> 00:27:17.256 administrative history. And make them available. And then, uh um you know 00:27:17.289 --> 00:27:21.575 , the documents that deal with um Cultural Resources, Programmatic 00:27:21.608 --> 00:27:25.746 Agreement, the historic preservation plan which they are underway 00:27:25.779 --> 00:27:31.585 developing right now or that were supposed to be developed back in 90 6, 00:27:31.618 --> 00:27:36.717 97 when the program started and they never were there all these things 00:27:36.750 --> 00:27:39.387 that were supposed to have been done. If you go back to the original 00:27:39.420 --> 00:27:42.956 Programmatic Agreement, there's a bunch of things that were supposed to be 00:27:42.989 --> 00:27:49.137 done and almost none of them were ever done, which is really amazing. 00:27:49.170 --> 00:27:56.397 And then um just the annual reports from the Banking and Monetary and 00:27:56.430 --> 00:28:01.246 research Center and reclamation. Um so, and of course, the record of 00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:06.766 decisions for the U I is so the first one you mentioned the desired future 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:12.315 conditions um that was late 19 nineties, you're saying, well, I can't say 00:28:12.348 --> 00:28:16.446 exactly what I'm thinking late nineties or early two thousands, but they, 00:28:16.479 --> 00:28:20.795 they were saying that those reports they were only completed for a few 00:28:20.828 --> 00:28:26.835 resources. I think one was completed for um Humpback chub like a certain, 00:28:26.868 --> 00:28:30.996 we want a certain number of tubs and of certain size and that's kind of 00:28:31.029 --> 00:28:34.726 narrow. Yeah, I thought this would be an integrated view of all the 00:28:34.759 --> 00:28:38.476 resources. But you're saying that for very specific targeted resources 00:28:38.509 --> 00:28:42.147 that they're trying to manage like beaches and yeah dangerous species. And 00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:46.285 so yeah, there was, I don't remember exactly how many resources were 00:28:46.318 --> 00:28:51.397 addressed, but not all of them after it was terminated. And I don't know 00:28:51.430 --> 00:28:56.127 why or how, but the powers to be somewhere and said we shouldn't be doing 00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:01.097 this anymore or something. I don't know. But uh I thought it was a very 00:29:01.130 --> 00:29:05.706 worthwhile exercise and then, you know, there's a lot of conflicting. You 00:29:05.739 --> 00:29:11.406 can do good for one resource and might do bad for another. You know, like 00:29:11.439 --> 00:29:17.726 there was an effort to um uh return extirpated species species that no 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:23.315 longer can be found in a canyon back like river otter. And, but you can't 00:29:23.348 --> 00:29:28.206 have river rotters and native fish coexisting very well. I actually 00:29:28.239 --> 00:29:32.857 studied river rotters from the master's work in the Verde River system and 00:29:32.890 --> 00:29:37.147 that was their favorite food was native fish. 00:29:37.180 --> 00:29:41.266 So I don't think it's a good idea to the river otters back in there. There 00:29:41.299 --> 00:29:48.285 was a conflict too about um uh you know, the invasive species tamarisk is 00:29:48.318 --> 00:29:51.835 taking over a lot of the lower canyons in the southwest and a lot of 00:29:51.868 --> 00:29:54.347 people were concerned about trying to get it out and then it turned out 00:29:54.380 --> 00:29:59.496 the endangered Southwester will. A flycatcher likes tamarisk. And are 00:29:59.529 --> 00:30:03.565 there any other examples like that that you've worked on or that the Walla 00:30:03.598 --> 00:30:09.726 are interested in where, you know, there's some resource conflict. 00:30:09.759 --> 00:30:12.656 I I 00:30:12.689 --> 00:30:16.647 one thing I, I want to mention, it's not necessarily tied to resource 00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:21.137 conflict, but we've had huge changes in the vegetation community in the 00:30:21.170 --> 00:30:26.627 lower Canyon. So since I've been involved, it used to be uh Tams 00:30:26.660 --> 00:30:33.696 monoculture. And then for some reason, uh when Lake Mead Rose and the f 00:30:33.729 --> 00:30:38.256 the dam was operating, how it was operating, the Taras got reduced in the 00:30:38.289 --> 00:30:44.217 willows and Cottonwoods are crazy. And then without any human intervention 00:30:44.250 --> 00:30:49.956 intervention really. And then now it's back to a mixture of willows and 00:30:49.989 --> 00:30:56.217 cameras, but nobody knows what that meant to the wildlife communities. Um 00:30:56.250 --> 00:31:02.055 Nobody besides when we got, when we finished monitoring wildlife in 07, uh 00:31:02.088 --> 00:31:06.686 , the park does a little bit of wildlife monitoring. Not much. But, um, 00:31:06.719 --> 00:31:11.456 nobody really is looking at that and that's one of the, the resources 00:31:11.489 --> 00:31:16.117 that's very important to all the tribes, the CRE the creatures. Well, and 00:31:16.150 --> 00:31:19.795 the monitoring is essential to adaptive management too. You can't adapt if 00:31:19.828 --> 00:31:22.776 you're not monitoring to see what the effects are. You know, they're 00:31:22.809 --> 00:31:26.315 monitoring environmental conditions or, or your decision making. Right. 00:31:26.348 --> 00:31:29.776 And, and they, they're monitoring vegetation, they're still doing that, 00:31:29.809 --> 00:31:34.387 but they, they're not linking that to what's happening with the wildlife 00:31:34.420 --> 00:31:38.656 populations. And we, we would like to start that program up again. It's 00:31:38.689 --> 00:31:43.676 just, um how would you do that? What would like walk us through the steps 00:31:43.709 --> 00:31:49.545 of when somebody recognizes a research program that needs to be done? Um 00:31:49.578 --> 00:31:55.305 How do you try to get that research funded? We've been most successful by 00:31:55.338 --> 00:32:00.575 working direct directly with reclamation uh Salt Lake City. Ok. Give them 00:32:00.608 --> 00:32:06.097 proposals and they've been able to find money here and there. But in 00:32:06.130 --> 00:32:10.256 addition, we, we have some base funding in our natural resource department 00:32:10.289 --> 00:32:14.867 from the BI A. We have a Wildlife Fishers and Parks program that is funded 00:32:14.900 --> 00:32:18.756 directly by BI A and there's, you know, there's a little money in there 00:32:18.789 --> 00:32:23.545 that we can use as matching funds if we can leverage other funds for like 00:32:23.578 --> 00:32:28.805 reclamation and uh and do the project. But that's how we've been so most 00:32:28.838 --> 00:32:35.315 successful recently. Like I just, they funded the archive project for the 00:32:35.348 --> 00:32:43.348 next two years. Um And good. Yeah, so I just hope that's archiving all 00:32:43.529 --> 00:32:48.305 those digitized uh interviews with elders about conditions on the river. 00:32:48.338 --> 00:32:55.535 Great, see how that works out. Um uh So when you mentioned the the 00:32:55.568 --> 00:33:00.956 desired future conditions reports that were done a few decades ago, um you 00:33:00.989 --> 00:33:06.186 said that they were focused fairly tightly on certain resources, you also 00:33:06.219 --> 00:33:12.726 mentioned that they were doing a cultural resources kind of inventory. Was 00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:18.137 that focused on different uh tribes or were they trying to do a 00:33:18.170 --> 00:33:22.887 comprehensive cultural resource inventory of that, that they and did they 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:28.377 finish it? Well, there has been a comprehensive cultural inventory done 00:33:28.410 --> 00:33:34.367 primarily by the park way back when? Ok, in the early beginnings of the 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:38.305 program, uh and I wasn't involved with that at all. Uh huh, I can't really 00:33:38.338 --> 00:33:43.726 speak to that but um what did they, OK, you, you don't know how well, they 00:33:43.759 --> 00:33:50.656 integrated tribal elders and oral tradition and stuff. No. OK. I was a 00:33:50.689 --> 00:33:54.805 biologist back then. Um But it would be great if you could interview 00:33:54.838 --> 00:34:01.117 people like Don Hubs, Loretta Jackson, Kelly Bundler and get their 00:34:01.150 --> 00:34:04.776 perspectives on what was happening. I mean, Loretta was there back in the 00:34:04.809 --> 00:34:10.445 beginning. Um And that's some of the people that I just made a note to add 00:34:10.478 --> 00:34:15.217 Loretta to my interview list. I think she'd be, she'd be excellent. That's 00:34:15.250 --> 00:34:17.936 one of the later questions I was gonna ask is who, who else do you think 00:34:17.969 --> 00:34:21.066 we should, we should talk to? So, thank you for bringing these names up. 00:34:21.099 --> 00:34:28.876 Sure. Yeah, and Loretta works for the corporation now. Uh So I think I'm 00:34:28.909 --> 00:34:34.354 pretty sure she'd be available. Great and yeah, and it'll be great to talk 00:34:34.387 --> 00:34:39.615 to Kurt and Mike and sure you have those on your list. Yeah, we're looking 00:34:39.648 --> 00:34:44.965 for, we're talking to Kurt. Ok. Yeah, looking forward to it. Yeah, 00:34:44.998 --> 00:34:50.095 actually he should have a good input for him. Um One of the questions on 00:34:50.128 --> 00:34:55.037 my list is, uh what do you think you accomplished uh personally and as a 00:34:55.070 --> 00:34:59.586 representative for the Walla tribe, anything in particular that? Well, as 00:34:59.619 --> 00:35:05.467 I mentioned before, those 14 years that we collected based on wildlife 00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:13.057 population data, um that was that data is still available and can be used 00:35:13.090 --> 00:35:19.166 to compare the future um, surveys or whatever so that we might get a 00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:25.586 better handle on on how things are changing under different, under 00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:30.365 different climate, under different dam operations, under more of more 00:35:30.398 --> 00:35:36.467 frequent high flow events under different vegetation chain regimes. And I 00:35:36.500 --> 00:35:40.115 think, you know, that database is, is one of the things that I 00:35:40.148 --> 00:35:46.456 accomplished that I uh I think is important to the program and we know not 00:35:46.489 --> 00:35:50.905 doing anything with it now, but someday in the future, maybe that will be 00:35:50.938 --> 00:35:56.717 worth looking at again, You feel confident that um about the value of, of 00:35:56.750 --> 00:36:03.486 collecting baseline data based on scientific information. And we, so we 00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:09.695 did a synthesis in 2007. Of all. Our years of surveying and GCMRC should 00:36:09.728 --> 00:36:14.425 have that report. I it's at my old office and I, I don't think I could 00:36:14.458 --> 00:36:18.227 find it anymore but, and that's for the lower river. Yeah, that's for 00:36:18.260 --> 00:36:24.026 below Diamond Creek. Ok. Yeah, we'll look for that. Yeah. Awesome. 00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:32.059 Um So, and then I've tried to, you know, 00:36:32.179 --> 00:36:37.686 get the, get the people to listen to the tribal perspectives and try to 00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:42.106 integrate tribal knowledge, tribal perspectives into the program. And I 00:36:42.139 --> 00:36:46.635 tried to get people to focus more below Diamond Creek too. I don't know 00:36:46.668 --> 00:36:52.276 that I was successful in some of those things, but I, I, I've been trying 00:36:52.309 --> 00:36:56.796 to, to, to some extent you feel like you've made some headway. Not enough 00:36:56.829 --> 00:37:00.296 , not enough. 00:37:00.329 --> 00:37:05.327 But um and keeping the tribe informed about what the issues are and what's 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:09.856 , what's important and what things are coming up that they need to know 00:37:09.889 --> 00:37:15.356 about and, and that kind of thing so that they can make their decisions on 00:37:15.389 --> 00:37:21.635 what their positions are. So, despite some of the lack of progress, some 00:37:21.668 --> 00:37:29.416 of the frustrations, um do you feel like um this overall effort to create 00:37:29.449 --> 00:37:36.416 a collaborative group of diverse stakeholders to, you know, come together 00:37:36.449 --> 00:37:42.057 to try to determine how to manage Glen Canyon Dam to protect and recover 00:37:42.090 --> 00:37:46.796 downstream resources. Do you feel like that's been a worthy endeavor? I do. 00:37:46.829 --> 00:37:53.356 Yeah, because I think when what they've realized that it's a very complex 00:37:53.389 --> 00:37:57.717 ecosystem and it's very difficult to predict what the outcomes of 00:37:57.750 --> 00:38:02.217 management actions or DA M operations are on all the various different 00:38:02.250 --> 00:38:08.376 resources and that there's very complex linkages between resources that 00:38:08.409 --> 00:38:14.836 you know, are gonna take a lot more work to understand. 00:38:14.869 --> 00:38:20.986 And I, um but I think overall the program has been moving forward and 00:38:21.019 --> 00:38:27.967 doing good things for the resources and it's just very complex ecosystem. 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.247 And 00:38:30.280 --> 00:38:32.727 um 00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:37.865 and I think the tribes can be of great help to understanding some of those 00:38:37.898 --> 00:38:42.916 linkages. And I, I think it's important to get more tribal members 00:38:42.949 --> 00:38:47.026 involved, not just representatives of the tribe, tribal members whose 00:38:47.059 --> 00:38:52.577 families have lived on the river. For, for example, 00:38:52.610 --> 00:38:56.986 I think that would be a positive thing, but I mentioned that a little 00:38:57.019 --> 00:39:00.146 earlier. Can you give a few more examples of ways in which you would like 00:39:00.179 --> 00:39:05.077 to see more tribal members actually involved in the program itself. 00:39:05.110 --> 00:39:10.327 Besides taking, you mentioned taking elders down the river and, and 00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:15.006 getting more people involved in monitoring resources, any other ways that 00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:20.497 you can see it would be beneficial to get tribal members involved. 00:39:20.530 --> 00:39:24.577 Well, personally, I think it would be nice to hear, to be able to sit down 00:39:24.610 --> 00:39:28.456 with tribal members and hear what their thoughts are on different issues. 00:39:28.489 --> 00:39:31.876 What do you think about these floods that they're doing down the river? 00:39:31.909 --> 00:39:34.865 How do you think about the, what do you think? And maybe that will come 00:39:34.898 --> 00:39:38.845 out of the archive project? Maybe those questions have been asked in the 00:39:38.878 --> 00:39:43.655 interviews. I, I personally haven't listened to any of those interviews. A 00:39:43.688 --> 00:39:48.706 lot of them are in Wallie and they need to be translated as well. But, um 00:39:48.739 --> 00:39:54.026 , and, and so maybe there's some valuable information that can be used. 00:39:54.059 --> 00:39:58.017 But just me personally, I would just like to hear what Dan to say about 00:39:58.050 --> 00:40:05.717 how, how the river is and how operational dam does or doesn't affect the 00:40:05.750 --> 00:40:12.967 resources. And I'm guessing that uh, no, I don't know. I'd be guessing. Um 00:40:13.000 --> 00:40:18.276 , uh, you're professional biologist with training. Um, what do you think 00:40:18.309 --> 00:40:23.316 about citizen science? I think it's great, you know, the work that they've 00:40:23.349 --> 00:40:29.467 done with the bugs and stuff that the river I think been really helpful. I 00:40:29.500 --> 00:40:36.456 mean, that's an easy way to collect a lot of data and, yeah, and it'd be 00:40:36.489 --> 00:40:41.126 really expensive to get, have professional biologists out there doing it, 00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:46.307 you know. So I think it's really good. Um, and I'd like to see it used 00:40:46.340 --> 00:40:51.876 wherever possible, you know, bat monitors or something like that. I don't 00:40:51.909 --> 00:40:57.356 know. And people love to go on the river and do stuff like that, you know. 00:40:57.389 --> 00:41:02.316 So I think wherever it can be promoted, it should be and people can be 00:41:02.349 --> 00:41:07.695 trained in uh proper ways of recording and collecting data. It's not 00:41:07.728 --> 00:41:11.256 rocket science, it's for sure. 00:41:11.289 --> 00:41:18.986 Crowdsourcing we call it. No. Uh So, um you, you mentioned earlier uh a 00:41:19.019 --> 00:41:23.336 surprise. Um One of the questions is, what did you encounter any 00:41:23.369 --> 00:41:26.787 environmental or social, political or scientific surprises during your 00:41:26.820 --> 00:41:32.365 tenure? And you did mention that you were uh most surprised at um the way 00:41:32.398 --> 00:41:39.316 that tribes were um maybe not uh treated as, um you know, full fledged uh 00:41:39.349 --> 00:41:44.546 equal members of, of the stakeholder groups. Uh Any other things that you 00:41:44.579 --> 00:41:51.486 didn't, you found that that were unexpected? 00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:57.115 I'm trying to think of something biological that I found. Well, I wasn't, 00:41:57.148 --> 00:42:02.695 it has, it was surprising how large a change in the vegetation community 00:42:02.728 --> 00:42:08.486 that happened over the, you know, several decades. That was very 00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:13.175 surprising. Can I ask you about that? Um You said when the water was 00:42:13.208 --> 00:42:17.945 higher, um you, you had a suppression of tamarisk and a recovery of 00:42:17.978 --> 00:42:23.057 cottonwood and willow, I'm assuming, you mean, you know, from like 1983 00:42:23.090 --> 00:42:26.675 when there was a huge flood and uh and the reservoirs were almost full 00:42:26.708 --> 00:42:31.445 again, at least. Um you know, Glen Canyon Dam and the Lake Paul behind it 00:42:31.478 --> 00:42:36.836 were full in 8384. From those huge rain events, I assume Hoover was too, 00:42:36.869 --> 00:42:43.686 was it that decade from 83 to 93 or whatever where that happened? And then 00:42:43.719 --> 00:42:48.236 as drought reduced the reservoirs, the Taris came back in again. I think 00:42:48.269 --> 00:42:53.416 it was, I know the lake was full. Lake Mead was full in the year 2000. So 00:42:53.449 --> 00:42:58.936 it was the years leading up to that. And then, so it's only been since 00:42:58.969 --> 00:43:02.727 2000. That Lake Mead has lost all that water because it's, I think it's at 00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:07.666 37% capacity right now and it's been sitting there for four or five years 00:43:07.699 --> 00:43:12.727 at least. Yeah, that's sort of rapid drawdown. Yeah. In 2000 when the 00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:18.836 drought hit then uh we had a wet year in 2005. But other than that, it's 00:43:18.869 --> 00:43:25.767 been drought every year. So it's been drought for the past 1617 years. So 00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:31.077 that's the period in which you had the tamarisk again, reasserting itself 00:43:31.110 --> 00:43:37.526 and along the river. I believe so. Yeah. Well, for sure we lost the 00:43:37.559 --> 00:43:45.559 Willows when the lake went down. Was that because of um uh 00:43:46.159 --> 00:43:51.236 uh Tamarisk are not Freytes like Cottonwoods and Willows. They can survive 00:43:51.269 --> 00:43:54.845 without their root systems being in water all the time. They're better at 00:43:54.878 --> 00:43:59.686 that. Yeah. Ok. So that's why. So, um this kind of a climate change 00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:04.557 question for you. Um, as a biologist, it sounds to me like one of the 00:44:04.590 --> 00:44:11.206 implications of um, of a warming and drying climate. Uh it is, uh, is the 00:44:11.239 --> 00:44:15.287 spread of more tamarisk and the loss of some of our native uh cotton wood. 00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:20.467 The only saving grace is the tamarisk leaf beetle that's affecting the 00:44:20.500 --> 00:44:26.557 cameras along the river now. Right. I'm not sure we've seen widespread 00:44:26.590 --> 00:44:30.497 mortality, but we are losing tam risks along the river due to the leaf 00:44:30.530 --> 00:44:34.767 beetle and do cottonwoods and willows come back in when the tamarisk is 00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:40.537 suppressed like that. I don't think we've had enough time to see that yet. 00:44:40.570 --> 00:44:43.385 But, um, 00:44:43.418 --> 00:44:49.037 I don't know if, you know, reclamation has supported a pilot project from 00:44:49.070 --> 00:44:52.885 this department to plant uh willows and cottonwoods down on the river. And 00:44:52.918 --> 00:44:58.206 we at two sites this summer we've planted, I don't know how many trees, 00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:04.606 sixties, the only trees and we were watering them. And, um, so hopefully, 00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:09.506 you know, even if we have to do it that way we can, um, get the native 00:45:09.539 --> 00:45:14.836 species back. Do you have the money to um, both continue that program and 00:45:14.869 --> 00:45:22.869 monitor its effects we can monitor. Um, I'm not, um, not sure what year 00:45:24.289 --> 00:45:27.666 that, that funding runs out. I think this is the last year for that 00:45:27.699 --> 00:45:34.385 funding. Um, so we've got a plan at least and they're doing good. Um, let 00:45:34.418 --> 00:45:38.385 me just see if we can keep that going. Are you thinking in any other ways 00:45:38.418 --> 00:45:42.256 about how, um, the 00:45:42.289 --> 00:45:46.115 climate change? It's the likely directions that we're going. I mean, 00:45:46.148 --> 00:45:50.666 nobody knows what the climate is exactly going to be like in 1015, 2030 00:45:50.699 --> 00:45:54.977 years. But we have a pretty strong idea of the trends. We know we're 00:45:55.010 --> 00:46:00.081 warming and drying almost certainly. And precipitation patterns are 00:46:00.114 --> 00:46:05.041 shifting and we're likely to have more periods of drought but potentially 00:46:05.074 --> 00:46:10.361 heavier rains when they do come. Are you thinking both as a biologist and 00:46:10.394 --> 00:46:14.990 a representative of the Walla Tribe about, you know, uh adaptive 00:46:15.023 --> 00:46:21.831 management in the future to sort of adapt to these potential changes based 00:46:21.864 --> 00:46:26.787 on climate change? Well, that's 11 reason that we're doing this 00:46:26.820 --> 00:46:31.077 restoration project is maybe in the future, we will have to go down and 00:46:31.110 --> 00:46:36.436 physically plant removed. Well, we remove cameras and we physically plan 00:46:36.469 --> 00:46:40.945 native riparian species. So in the future, we might have to adapt in that 00:46:40.978 --> 00:46:48.978 manner. Um, but how about wildlife or me personally, I, I'm thinking like 00:46:48.989 --> 00:46:53.057 , well, like you said, it's gonna get hotter and drier and I haven't 00:46:53.090 --> 00:46:57.586 really looked to that far down the road thinking what, what's gonna happen. 00:46:57.619 --> 00:47:04.796 But again, having AAA database baseline data from back in the nineties 00:47:04.829 --> 00:47:10.416 and two thousands, we can, if we get funding in the future, we can see if 00:47:10.449 --> 00:47:15.106 it's, if it, what it's doing to the wildlife populations. Do you know if 00:47:15.139 --> 00:47:21.467 the wai tribe has created a kind of their own desired future conditions, 00:47:21.500 --> 00:47:26.807 statement or document? I, I do not believe so. Would that be something 00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:32.497 that you think would be useful? I do think it would be useful. 00:47:32.530 --> 00:47:36.626 Um And that would be a good way to get the tribal council involved and the 00:47:36.659 --> 00:47:41.026 elders. What, you know, because this is your land, what is your vision for 00:47:41.059 --> 00:47:43.477 the land? 00:47:43.510 --> 00:47:48.037 And, and we've never had that kind of input 00:47:48.070 --> 00:47:53.287 and I would think all the tribes might want to go through a process like 00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:55.436 that. 00:47:55.469 --> 00:48:01.166 So you acknowledge that you think uh the program um with all its flaws, 00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:05.227 the program has been valuable, it's worthy. Do you think it should be 00:48:05.260 --> 00:48:10.717 continued? And if so what improvements might you make to be even more 00:48:10.750 --> 00:48:14.217 satisfied with its results? 00:48:14.250 --> 00:48:21.057 I do feel it should be continued. Um 00:48:21.090 --> 00:48:23.405 Well, I think 00:48:23.438 --> 00:48:28.425 if there could be more integration of tribal perspectives and tribal laws 00:48:28.458 --> 00:48:35.905 into the program that would be helpful, um I would hope that there would 00:48:35.938 --> 00:48:38.557 be less 00:48:38.590 --> 00:48:45.606 divisiveness among stakeholders, like there has a better, a better way to 00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:50.905 work together instead of thinking that everybody has their own agenda and 00:48:50.938 --> 00:48:55.135 which kind of the way it seems it is now, everybody has their own agenda. 00:48:55.168 --> 00:49:00.615 And if we can all look at other people's perspectives and try to 00:49:00.648 --> 00:49:04.095 understand where they're coming from and if we could all work together 00:49:04.128 --> 00:49:08.967 better. I think that would be beneficial to, can you think of any specific 00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:13.166 ways that that could be promoted? 00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:18.557 How might the, the sort of the human dimensions of the Adaptive Management 00:49:18.590 --> 00:49:23.977 Program be tweaked in order to encourage more of this sharing of goals and 00:49:24.010 --> 00:49:29.747 perspectives rather than competition? I think, um, recreate some of these 00:49:29.780 --> 00:49:33.106 committees that we had in the past where people are working together to 00:49:33.139 --> 00:49:38.385 get desired future conditions, stuff like that. And I don't know why. Well 00:49:38.418 --> 00:49:43.646 , those committees were disbanded when they were. But um I thought it was 00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:47.747 beneficial for me to sit down with other stakeholders, get their 00:49:47.780 --> 00:49:53.307 perspectives on things and work towards a common goal of improving back to 00:49:53.340 --> 00:49:58.166 habitat or improving segment resources or whatever they need. So let me 00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:02.327 ask you to clarify how that would be different than um all the 00:50:02.360 --> 00:50:06.885 stakeholders sitting around in one room at the MW I meetings and a smaller 00:50:06.918 --> 00:50:11.756 number of technical people sitting together in the twig meetings. I think 00:50:11.789 --> 00:50:17.425 it just gets uh uh less, it's more informal and smaller groups and that 00:50:17.458 --> 00:50:23.686 can be more effective at uh go hashing out the issues and, and then, and 00:50:23.719 --> 00:50:27.925 then they ultimately bring it back to the twig and the twig discuss it. 00:50:27.958 --> 00:50:34.006 And so I think it's just a uh a smaller scale process. So sort of like 00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:37.577 committees and subcommittees that hash things out and then bring them back 00:50:37.610 --> 00:50:41.477 , you can get more, you learn more about each other. You can negotiate 00:50:41.510 --> 00:50:46.037 more face to face than in the great big rooms or, like you said, in some 00:50:46.070 --> 00:50:49.115 instances, you raise your hand for an hour and a half and nobody calls on 00:50:49.148 --> 00:50:54.236 you. That doesn't happen in a small group. And that's right. Ok. I get it. 00:50:54.269 --> 00:50:58.006 So, are you hopeful that? Well, you know, the, the program is funded by 00:50:58.039 --> 00:51:02.166 the federal government through hydropower revenues from Glen Canon Dam. Um 00:51:02.199 --> 00:51:08.816 There's a, I don't know, there's a significant chance that, you know, 10 00:51:08.849 --> 00:51:12.467 or 15 years down the road. Glen Cannon Dam might not even have enough, or 00:51:12.500 --> 00:51:16.816 Lake Powell might not have enough water to even be generating hydropower 00:51:16.849 --> 00:51:22.615 if this drought continues. Are you hopeful that the program will continue 00:51:22.648 --> 00:51:29.267 very much? So? But, um, one of your questions um with the current 00:51:29.300 --> 00:51:34.796 administration, current president administration, I'm very fearful that 00:51:34.829 --> 00:51:39.686 the program might not get the support that it needs. And I'm hoping that 00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:44.026 there's enough laws on the books, the Grand Canyon Protection Act and the 00:51:44.059 --> 00:51:49.425 Native Species Act and the National Historic Preservation Act that they 00:51:49.458 --> 00:51:53.945 can't just cut up, cut off the funding for the program. I'm hopeful. But 00:51:53.978 --> 00:52:01.978 what we're, we heard recently was that the, the uh whatever that is, um 00:52:02.909 --> 00:52:08.256 directed wa A to send money back to the General Fund Us General Fund 00:52:08.289 --> 00:52:13.595 instead of that's usually earmarked for Glen Canyon program and other 00:52:13.628 --> 00:52:18.327 environmental programs. And that's gonna be an issue that's discussed at 00:52:18.360 --> 00:52:23.236 the next analy meeting next week. Really? That's gonna be like the first 00:52:23.269 --> 00:52:28.345 topic address because, yeah, they're pulling the plug on the program. I 00:52:28.378 --> 00:52:32.546 remember right after the Trump administration came in, they also put a 00:52:32.579 --> 00:52:39.577 hold on all expenditures by federal advisory committees and this is under 00:52:39.610 --> 00:52:45.635 faca F ac A and there is a period of time, several months long in which 00:52:45.668 --> 00:52:48.796 the folks, the am wig people didn't even know whether they would be 00:52:48.829 --> 00:52:52.577 allowed to meet and they had this meeting scheduled, they had to postpone 00:52:52.610 --> 00:52:56.077 it. So, um so you're hearing this is continuing under the Trump 00:52:56.110 --> 00:53:04.110 administration kind of hostility to implementing programs. And so we just 00:53:04.429 --> 00:53:10.796 received last week our funding for 2018 participation in the Glen Canon 00:53:10.829 --> 00:53:18.829 program from and we're in the 2019 fiscal year right now. 2019. Yeah. So, 00:53:19.050 --> 00:53:23.736 and a lot of that was because of the Trump administration said if anything 00:53:23.769 --> 00:53:29.827 over $100,000 we need to review and evaluate it. And so that was a very 00:53:29.860 --> 00:53:34.537 long process. And so I don't know what it's gonna look like in the future 00:53:34.570 --> 00:53:39.655 , but it's kind of scary. It'll be interesting. I'm not gonna be at the 00:53:39.688 --> 00:53:43.486 meeting, but it'll be interesting to hear what the results of the 00:53:43.519 --> 00:53:47.796 discussion are. And then the Federal government so far has been kind of 00:53:47.829 --> 00:53:52.037 dancing around it. Not only sitting there, they're all saying we really 00:53:52.070 --> 00:53:54.675 don't know what's gonna happen. We don't really know, know what's gonna 00:53:54.708 --> 00:53:58.717 happen and somebody's got to know because we're, it's right around the 00:53:58.750 --> 00:54:03.936 corner, you know, the end of September a new fiscal year and all the um 00:54:03.969 --> 00:54:09.635 all the, so as I understand it from a previous interview with Dave Garrett 00:54:09.668 --> 00:54:16.345 that uh research programs are funded for in five year chunks. It's 33 year 00:54:16.378 --> 00:54:21.635 chunks, ok, reviewed every year though they reviewed every year. And so 00:54:21.668 --> 00:54:27.537 people are waiting for ongoing research programs um to get the next chunk 00:54:27.570 --> 00:54:32.287 of funding for the next year of work and nobody knows whether that money 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:36.856 is going to be held up or. Yeah, and this is June 2019. We're funding, 00:54:36.889 --> 00:54:40.546 we're talking about uh which is the last year of the three year funding 00:54:40.579 --> 00:54:46.155 cycle and then we'd be going through another planning process for the next 00:54:46.188 --> 00:54:49.936 group of three year projects. 00:54:49.969 --> 00:54:51.945 So 00:54:51.978 --> 00:54:56.327 that's a little scary. Um But I'm hoping like those laws that are in place 00:54:56.360 --> 00:55:00.095 that they can't just say no, we're not gonna monitor the Grand Canon 00:55:00.128 --> 00:55:05.267 resources anymore. There would certainly be several lawsuits, several 00:55:05.300 --> 00:55:10.977 interest groups if they tried to do that, I'm sure. Well, I guess we'll 00:55:11.010 --> 00:55:17.655 have to wait and see. Yeah. Um One of the uh last important questions is 00:55:17.688 --> 00:55:24.175 um asking you for advice on what you, what advice would you give to uh new 00:55:24.208 --> 00:55:30.486 members of the technical work group or the a wig uh pe new people coming 00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:33.845 on to represent. Like, let's say, for example, you stepped down as the 00:55:33.878 --> 00:55:39.066 Wallie um representative on the twig in the next few years. Um What would 00:55:39.099 --> 00:55:42.385 you say to your replacement about, you know, how to be an effective member 00:55:42.418 --> 00:55:48.615 , how to understand the process? I would say that it's important to get to 00:55:48.648 --> 00:55:53.436 know all the stakeholders, get to learn what their perspectives are, learn 00:55:53.469 --> 00:55:58.896 where they're coming from, get to know the river where there's issues 00:55:58.929 --> 00:56:04.296 where things are happening and what's going on and, and be open to working 00:56:04.329 --> 00:56:09.615 with a diverse group of stakeholders and um be open to working with people 00:56:09.648 --> 00:56:15.037 that don't have the same viewpoints as you might have. That's I think that 00:56:15.070 --> 00:56:19.405 would be my main message, I think and, you know, it's all about the 00:56:19.438 --> 00:56:25.276 resources to, to uh to me and us and it's not, it's about the resource 00:56:25.309 --> 00:56:31.727 preserving resources. That's just keep that in perspective as well. When 00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:38.006 you say uh preserving the resources, can you um sort of identify the key 00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:43.967 resources that you're most concerned about preserving? Um Personally, I'm 00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:49.327 most concerned about the riparian vegetation. The riparian species is, you 00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:55.046 know, I was trained as a riparian Ecologist in the past, but, but I think 00:56:55.079 --> 00:56:58.936 it's important to ask the, the tribes and ask those stakeholders what's 00:56:58.969 --> 00:57:03.836 important to you. And you know, this, this program is driven a lot by the 00:57:03.869 --> 00:57:08.425 laws, the Endangered Species Act. We do a lot of stuff for up and back up. 00:57:08.458 --> 00:57:12.796 We do a lot of stuff for beaches because of recreational rafting 00:57:12.829 --> 00:57:17.626 interests. And we do a lot of stuff for, um, culturally important 00:57:17.659 --> 00:57:23.106 resources because there's a law that protects them as well. So, but, but I 00:57:23.139 --> 00:57:28.566 think to the Wall Tribe, all the resources are important, 00:57:28.599 --> 00:57:34.077 is there anything else you'd like to add as we get close to wrapping this 00:57:34.110 --> 00:57:36.615 up? 00:57:36.648 --> 00:57:40.327 Any other people? Other people? Yeah. Clay Bravo. I don't know if you're 00:57:40.360 --> 00:57:46.276 familiar with him. He's on the tribal council. He was one of the first 00:57:46.309 --> 00:57:54.309 ones that got the tribe a spot at the table, Clay Bravo Bravo. And he is 00:57:55.628 --> 00:57:59.977 he still on the tribal council? He's in the tribal council. 00:58:00.010 --> 00:58:05.135 I mean, like I mentioned, um, Don Rubs, whose office is right over there? 00:58:05.168 --> 00:58:13.168 Loretta and Peter Mongar. He's the new director here. Um Hub Bs. Yeah. And 00:58:13.619 --> 00:58:17.945 uh I met her at an AM wig meeting that you were at when we talked about. 00:58:17.978 --> 00:58:22.026 Ok. And she's, she's currently the representative that she's been replaced 00:58:22.059 --> 00:58:28.256 by, um Peter Bungler and I'm being replaced by a council member as the 00:58:28.289 --> 00:58:30.307 alternate. 00:58:30.340 --> 00:58:34.706 I'm still on the twig as far as I know, 00:58:34.739 --> 00:58:38.135 as far as I know. 00:58:38.168 --> 00:58:44.686 Um, I don't know if you've heard the name Steve Carruthers. Yes, he was 00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:48.135 recommended by a couple other people and he's on my list as, as a 00:58:48.168 --> 00:58:53.945 possibility. Yeah, he's worth Canon. Um, and, um, some of the people that 00:58:53.978 --> 00:59:00.936 I think are important people like Larry Stevens, um Cliff Barrett and Don 00:59:00.969 --> 00:59:04.267 Osler, Leslie James. 00:59:04.300 --> 00:59:10.227 Right. Um Who's Don Osler? And who's he represents Don Osler represents 00:59:10.260 --> 00:59:14.986 Colorado Esther James represents Creta. 00:59:15.019 --> 00:59:20.615 Um They've been, they're very outspoken and they're very level headed and 00:59:20.648 --> 00:59:26.247 they, and then they kind of look at the big picture 00:59:26.280 --> 00:59:29.095 and then there's people that are no longer in the program. That would be 00:59:29.128 --> 00:59:34.126 good. Um Amy Houston was really good. She was a bi a employee. How do you 00:59:34.159 --> 00:59:40.385 spell her last name? He US, Elan 00:59:40.418 --> 00:59:48.418 Lan or Inan? And she was with the Blmbiabi A. Ok. 00:59:49.378 --> 00:59:53.106 And you probably know Steve Spangle just retired from official online 00:59:53.139 --> 01:00:00.796 service. Steve Spangle. See you on our list. I don't think so. I cool. 01:00:00.829 --> 01:00:07.239 You're giving us all kinds of good news. Christy, uh S pe ng Les Pangle. 01:00:08.159 --> 01:00:10.159 He's in the Phoenix area. Amy's in the Phoenix area 01:00:12.820 --> 01:00:18.017 and, uh, Spangle is a US fish and wildlife service. So he'd be involved in 01:00:18.050 --> 01:00:25.077 the endangered species. Uh, fish work. Ok. 01:00:25.110 --> 01:00:30.836 And I don't think there's anything that I have written today I haven't 01:00:30.869 --> 01:00:38.655 talked about kind 01:00:38.688 --> 01:00:41.646 and I appreciate you coming here. Yes. Thank you very much for the 01:00:41.679 --> 01:00:47.566 interview. Pleasure getting to know you better and I hope, hope and dreams 01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:50.885 for the program. Yeah, 01:00:50.918 --> 01:00:53.260 I hope it helps.