WEBVTT

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 So this is the oral history interview with Dave Wagner in Tucson, Arizona

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on August 4th, 2017. And uh thanks for
coming to meet with us today. I

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really appreciate it. And if you could
just start, we were having a little

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chat about your background in public
lands and policy. And uh if you would

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just sort of go back to that
conversation and fill us in about uh you know

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, your experiences where you used to
work and how you originally got

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involved in the program. Well, I think
to put it in context, I should

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start kind of at the beginning. Um
First off, my name is Dave Wagner. It's

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Wegn er um I was recruited to come
work in Duchesne Utah in 1974

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for the Utah Division of Wildlife, uh
specifically to work on this uh

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environmental impact statement for the
Central Utah project. Um That

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project was to take water out of the
Green River System, essentially on

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that side of the Colorado River basin
and capture it all and ship it over

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to the Wasatch Front. So my job was
looking at the aquatic ecology and the

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limnology, the water chemistry of the
rivers of the lakes and of the water

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, the reservoirs that the Bureau was
intending to build or had already

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built. Um From 74 to 75.5. I worked
for Utah State of Utah. And then the

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Bureau of reclamation hired me as an
engineering technician. One of my

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degrees is in um engineering. Um and
they wanted me to work on helping

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build the dams that the Central Utah
project was building as part of that

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overall endeavor. I worked for as an
engineer for two years and then I

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decided I, if I was gonna further my
education, it was time to do it then

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because I was gonna get sucked into
working forever. If I don't go back to

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school when I had to or needed to went
to Colorado State University where

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I got a degree in, well, I it's called
um river Engineering, but it was

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geomorphology related how to rebuild
rivers specifically because the

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Bureau wanted me to look at how do,
how can we restructure rivers below

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dams after we've built dams because
they just were having terrible luck

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with um fish species and biology and
all kinds of things. So, while I was

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at, you know, we're going to Color
State University and work and living in

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Fort Collins, I worked full time for
the fish and wildlife service. What

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years were that? That would have been
77

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probably the end of 77 through now. It
had to be, it had to be like

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November 77 to

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January of 1980.

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I got my master's degree there. And
then the bureau recruited me to come

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back to work for them in Salt Lake
City at the regional office where I was

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worked on the regional water quality
staff looking specifically at setting

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up the reservoir monitoring program
for all the reservoirs in the upper

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Colorado river basin. So that's what I
did. That's when I started working

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on Lake Powell Flaming Gorge, the dam,
the dams and reservoirs on the

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Gunnison System, Fontanel Reservoir in
Wyoming. So I got to know the

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watershed of the upper Colorado basin
intimately and that was great. Um

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Long about 1982.

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Um the middle I know probably fall of
82. Um

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We had a particularly sensitive
Secretary of Interior by the name of J

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Watt who was having chronic foot and
mouth disease over his proclamations

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that he wanted to put additional
generators on Glen Canyon Dam. Um He

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wanted to do that without doing N A.
He wanted to do it without having to

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worry about the endangered Species Act
because that's how it had always

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been done. Um Keep in mind the Glen
Canyon Dam was authorized by Congress

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on April 11th, 1956. Never had any
need. A compliance didn't have to,

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there wasn't a law then never had any
es a compliance Clean Water Act

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because those laws didn't exist. So
this time around Mr Watt said, well,

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we're just gonna put generators at on
Glen on the outlet works at Glen

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Canyon Dam so we can increase. This
was right after the energy crisis of

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the mid to late seventies. When we
needed more energy, the United States

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was looking to get out from underneath
the the yoke of foreign oil, et

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cetera, et cetera and they were gonna
develop energy everywhere. 1977 the

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Department of Energy. In fact, today
is the anniversary of the Department

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of Energy going into Business
Department of Energy took all the bureau of

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reclamation power marketing jobs that
we used to have in the bureau. And

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those were all transferred to the
Department of Energy. And that's when

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the Western area, Power Administration
became a the player that they are

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now is whatever how many years ago it
is on today when the Department of

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Energy was authorized, but to make
matters worse, the Department of Energy

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and when was populated now by a bunch
of old bureau guys that said, well,

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we've always just, we don't need
these, this environmental stuff. We'll

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just go do it. Well, they come to find
out they had a particularly

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sensitive meeting in Page Arizona
where the environmental community now

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knowing that the National
Environmental Policy Act was in place and they

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had rights to open transparent process
that they called him out. And some

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another particularly sensitive person
from the bureau of reclamation stood

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up and said the bureau build, the
bureau can taketh away and that blew up.

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Coming back all around to Congressman
George Miller, who at that point

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was climbing up the ranks uh in the
House of Representatives. Um He became

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, he was very, still is heavily
involved in public land issues, especially

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Western public land and water issues
had, had, had run ins with the bureau

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of reclamation in the past. And he
said you can't do that. And so the, the

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either congress was going to implement
some sort of requirement on the

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bureau at Glen Canyon Dam or they were
gonna get sued by the environmental

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community. And at that point,
Secretary Watt basically decided, well, I

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gotta give myself some cover to
protect this process. I still want to put

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these generators on there. I want,
let's just do the minimal amount of

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environmental compliance we have to,
which is an environmental assessment.

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And so the environmental assessment
was initiated on December 8th, 1982.

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Part of that was that they had, they
were initiating what's called the

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Glen Canyon environmental studies. So
that's where that came from. At that

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point, I was, I, I had already been
working at, at Lake Powell on water

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quality stuff for the through the
regional office. I had already started

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working below Glen Canyon Dam when I
was with the fish and wildlife

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service in Fort Collins, looking at
trying to figure out what's the

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minimum flow. We used to call them
minimum instream flow that we needed.

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The bureau needed to release from the
dam to support the trout fishery

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that the Bureau of the Fish and
Wildlife Service in Arizona game and fish

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had initiated after the closure of
Glen Canyon Dam. Um So I was at least

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as I was told, there were several
folks in the regional office who were

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contacted by Washington and said we
need to do some environmental studies

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below the dam to give us cover. We're
gonna do the minimum amount possible.

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Select somebody from the region who
will go down there and initiate that.

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Two. Engineers, two. And before me had
turned it down because they said

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that's a no end job and it's not gonna
go anywhere, you know, and plus

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you're gonna have to move to page or
some God awful place and who wants to

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go there? Um So I was asked um by the
regional environmental office,

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Harold Szl at the time, if I would
consider taking this position. And

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Cliff Barrett was regional director,
Bill Plummer had been regional

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director, Cliff had come in and they
basically, as Cliff later told me,

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they wanted to put somebody down there
who they knew would never get

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anything done. And so being a
biologist, scientist, they knew that, you

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know, engineers are God in the bureau
of reclamation, they've always been

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God. They always will be God.
Scientists are, you know, we're so far down

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the totem pole, it doesn't, we don't
even register. So I got selected to

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take that position on and, but I was
to be a staff of one. I wouldn't have

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any staff. I couldn't even have an
office officially. Um, they were

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wanting to move me to Flagstaff
Arizona because that's where all the

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environmental conservation community
was. They're the ones who were

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raising all the holy ruckus. They
wanted to have somebody out there that

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could take the heat for the bureau
through all that. So make a long story

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short, I took that job on, I moved
Flagstaff my office. I was able to con

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then Gene Shoemaker who was alive. I
don't know if you know of Gene, but

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he was the man who discovered the
sheep, the um shoemaker Levy comet out

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there. And he's, well, he's, he was
the guy that brought um the program to

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flag the US GS to Flagstaff to help
train the astronauts out on a meteor

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crater and those place Sunset Crater
in those areas. So Gene took a liking

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to me, Sue Kiefer was another
scientist who took a shine to me. She gave

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me a corner of her lab um in at
Flagstaff US GS and that's where G CS

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started and it was me staff of one. So
uh and then from there, of course,

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1983 happened um when we almost lost
Glen Canyon Dam. So that changed the

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whole perspective on the studies and
we're gonna, the studies were to be

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focused on initially bile and these
were the categories I was given

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sediment transport and physical
hydrology, biology and recreation. Go out

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and figure what to do. There was,
there was zero, direct zero, no

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direction, it was, go figure out what
to do, what do we need? Go talk to

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people, just get out of here, get out
of Salt Lake, go down there, just

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make them see that the bureau has
somebody out there fumbling around on

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this stuff. It'll give us cover to do
what Mr Watt. By this time, Mr Watt

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had been let go, he had put foot in
mouth one too many times with Nancy

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Reagan and he was gone. Uh Don Hoel,
who came from the Power Marketing

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Arena became the new Secretary of
Interior. And for some reason, he kind

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of wanted to find out about issues in
the West. And so we chatted a lot

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about dams and things like that. He at
that point had been previously

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involved with Columbia River dams. So
he was already knowing the impact of

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dams through BP A and through the
Power Marketing Administration up there

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to look at what some of the issues.
And that's where if you, you, I know

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you want to get to adaptive
management. Do you wanna talk about the

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genesis of adaptive management in this
country? It's the Pacific Northwest.

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That's where it started. It started
with the Northwest um forest plan and

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it started coming out of the writings
of Kyle Lee and Carl Walters and

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everybody that was looking at those
issues in the Pacific Northwest with

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the Columbia River because the
Columbia because of the salmon had and the

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iconic this of the salmon had this
issue was on their radar screen far

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sooner than it was down in the south
with Humpback chub or squaw fish or

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something that people couldn't eat and
couldn't keep if they did catch

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them, they had to let them go. So 1983
though really changed the dynamic

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because now the studies from just
looking at the very narrow band that we

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were told to look at, which was the
change of operation from present

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operating to what would happen if we
added a couple of more generators to

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the river altitude. So it was a very
narrow band. After 1983 the bureau

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was in total chaos and I was at the
dam when all this was going on. So I,

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you know, you could see, are you
talking about the flood flood? The 83 was

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the big flood year. And when we, it
was that this Saturday, they had to go

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up to page to go by the marine plywood
to throw on the top of the dam. I

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was up at the dam on that day. So, and
you could just feel the dam

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rumbling and when you saw chunks of
concrete, the size of Volkswagens, the

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old Volkswagens flying out the
spillway. And when you lost the, the sweep

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on the spillways, and then when the
water turned red, you knew that the

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spillway tunnels had been compromised.
The bureau shut them down, put

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plywood on this, on the ups on the
upstream side of the spillway gates so

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we could put the reservoir into
surcharge. So there was actually more

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water in the reservoir than it's
designed to hold. But what came out of

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that is that the, the the discussion
that emerged? And I remember having

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this very discussion with Cliff
Barrett and, and uh the commissioner at

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that point was well, we could, you
can, you could shut down the studies

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and just say we got bigger things to
do or we could postpone the studies

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until the bureau got through this
state of emergency. In 83. Actually, 84

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was a bigger year than 83. It was just
the bureau thought ahead in 84 to

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release more water all during the year
rather than wait until may to start

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releasing water. Um which the dam was
not designed as the flood control

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dam. It's designed as a storage dam.
So it's not built like the Columbia

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River Dam. So it's a whole different
engineering perspective or the third

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option was is we could embrace this
opportunity and look at the whole

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range of operational issues at Glen
Canyon Dam caught the flood. So we

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could take into account the flood, we
could take into account of low flows.

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We could take into account operational
changes that the bureau may wish

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to look at down the road. So that was
where the studies changed from being

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a very small entity to being a
potentially a much larger entity as part of

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this. And as a result of that, um the
bureau wanted me to include and

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embrace bringing other agencies into
the process. Fish and Wildlife

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Service, us Geologic Survey, other
bureau folks, Arizona, game and fish

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and a whole variety of other agencies
that have issues associated with the

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operation and maintenance, Western
area. Power of Glen Canyon Dam. So I

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still didn't have staff, but at least
I had the opportunity to go out and

00:15:31.918 --> 00:15:39.918
get um cooperating partners, shall we
say? And so out of that, we began to

00:15:41.288 --> 00:15:45.736
implement the studies and I, I was on
game and fish, whoever is necessary

00:15:45.769 --> 00:15:51.005
the key thing to all this and included
in the December 8th, 1982

00:15:51.038 --> 00:15:55.645
memorandum was that this shall be paid
for through power revenues which

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took me off books, which was critical
because if I had to go through

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Congress every year to get an
appropriations in the bureau of reclamation

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budget, I I worked in the House of
Representative, I know how this goes

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down and if somebody doesn't like what
you're doing, they just don't give

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you the money to do it. Having an op
an opportunity to use the checkbook

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of Glen Canyon Dam and the Color River
storage project was the most

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critical thing we did. And you see
that and if you go up and talk to any

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of the folks who work on the Columbia,
they'll tell you the same thing,

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the fact that we have revenue,
dedicated revenue to us from the generation

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of hydroelectricity. So all of a
sudden it makes the, the hydro piece of

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this a partner. And so they want to be
engaged and you want them engaged.

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But it also gives you opportunity
every year to get dollars. That didn't

00:16:47.548 --> 00:16:52.177
require me to go through
appropriations was that December 1982 decision,

00:16:52.210 --> 00:16:55.486
an Act of Congress or a decision by
the reclamation. It was a decision by

00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:59.096
the Secretary of Secretary. I got, I
got a memo in there someplace from

00:16:59.129 --> 00:17:04.916
Jim Watt. It has never been rescinded.
That's amazing. No, there's,

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there's times, I mean, I've between
you and me and the, and the fence post

00:17:08.309 --> 00:17:12.127
and the recorder. I ran into Jim Lock
Gosh where I was in the Salt Lake

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City Airport. I wanna say 9697

00:17:16.439 --> 00:17:20.436
somewhere in there. And we got to
chatting, I went up and reintroduced

00:17:20.469 --> 00:17:24.897
myself because the last time I had
actually talked with him was he was

00:17:24.930 --> 00:17:29.785
Secretary of Interior. I was in the
secretary's office and his direction

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to me was you're gonna go down there
and do environmental studies in the

00:17:34.029 --> 00:17:36.785
Grand Canyon, but we're never going to
change the way we operate. Glen

00:17:36.818 --> 00:17:41.075
Canyon Dam. This is the way we've done
things. We're always gonna do it

00:17:41.108 --> 00:17:44.956
because I'm in his statement was if I
start opening up Glen Canyon Dam to

00:17:44.989 --> 00:17:49.055
environmental review, it means I gotta
open up all the other dams to

00:17:49.088 --> 00:17:52.996
environmental review. They didn't want
to do that. No way. No. How,

00:17:53.029 --> 00:17:56.196
because all of a sudden it would let a
bunch of conservation types, the

00:17:56.229 --> 00:18:00.127
David Browers of the world, all all of
a sudden have a say in how the dam

00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.295
is managed and operate. So sitting in
front of this fireplace and having

00:18:04.328 --> 00:18:08.877
his finger pointing at me, you know,
come forward a few years meeting him

00:18:08.910 --> 00:18:11.236
in the Salt Lake City Airport and he
said I just should have given you a

00:18:11.269 --> 00:18:16.377
brown bag full of money and told you
to go away, you know, instead of

00:18:16.410 --> 00:18:21.617
giving you the access to the, to the
um power revenue checkbook. And

00:18:21.650 --> 00:18:26.137
because it just, it changed the whole
dynamic of how I looked at how we

00:18:26.170 --> 00:18:31.107
were gonna do business. Um Keep in
mind there was the bureau in this time

00:18:31.140 --> 00:18:35.926
was going through a lot of grief
trying to get Glen Canyon repaired. Glen

00:18:35.959 --> 00:18:40.666
Canyon wasn't the only dam that was
negative was having problems. Um So

00:18:40.699 --> 00:18:45.597
they were running around the region
literally looking for, looking at

00:18:45.630 --> 00:18:49.166
other dams because this could happen
again. Hadn't Teton Dam just failed a

00:18:49.199 --> 00:18:53.637
few times had, had collapsed in 76. I
was working for the bureau in

00:18:53.670 --> 00:18:59.416
Duchenne when it went down and I got
sent to Saint Anthony, uh Idaho to

00:18:59.449 --> 00:19:04.867
look at the devastation and that, that
put a crimp in um the bureau's gate

00:19:04.900 --> 00:19:10.597
, so to speak. But um Glen Canyon was
even more because they, it was close

00:19:10.630 --> 00:19:13.756
to Glen to lose them. I don't know if
you would ever lost the whole dam,

00:19:13.789 --> 00:19:17.906
but it would have had a significant
impact on a lot of the dam structure

00:19:17.939 --> 00:19:22.085
itself and resources downstream,
everything downstream. But the dam is, is

00:19:22.118 --> 00:19:25.127
a sieve as it is where it's built,
it's built in sandstone that, that

00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:28.756
leaks and there's nothing you can do
about that. At least Hoover Dam is

00:19:28.789 --> 00:19:32.926
building granite and it's solid. It's,
it, it's gonna go over the top of

00:19:32.959 --> 00:19:36.867
Hoover and probably destroy the power
plant down below. But the dam will

00:19:36.900 --> 00:19:40.967
stay Glen Canyon. Not so much because
the, just the way it's constructed

00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.637
and where it's constructed. But that
being said, we began the process in

00:19:45.670 --> 00:19:51.045
the about I wanna say 8687.

00:19:51.078 --> 00:19:53.236
Um

00:19:53.269 --> 00:19:57.887
The sec, the assistant Secretary for
then Water and Science. I don't know

00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:01.967
if it was water and science, but I
think that was the name then called me

00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:07.406
up and said um the Bureau is in the
Department of Interior is going to

00:20:07.439 --> 00:20:13.506
dedicate a couple $100,000 to this new
entity called the Water Science

00:20:13.539 --> 00:20:18.565
Technology Board of the National
Academy of Sciences. We don't have any

00:20:18.598 --> 00:20:24.217
clue of what we want them to do. Might
you have some idea on how to use

00:20:24.250 --> 00:20:27.166
the Academy of Sciences?

00:20:27.199 --> 00:20:31.936
And you know, I may be dumb but I
ain't stupid. I jumped on that and this

00:20:31.969 --> 00:20:35.305
was a brand new board that had been
set up. They were looking at issues

00:20:35.338 --> 00:20:40.026
with the bureau, the core epa, et
cetera. And we had already, I had

00:20:40.059 --> 00:20:48.059
already felt that we, our science
needed to be bolstered up a lot. Nothing

00:20:48.209 --> 00:20:51.857
against people from Arizona game and
fish or from the fish and Wildlife

00:20:51.890 --> 00:20:57.226
Service or the Bureau. But we were
just making up science as we went in

00:20:57.259 --> 00:21:00.607
the Grand Canyon and that's not a good
way to do science. We had to have a

00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:05.416
plan, we had to think about how we
were approaching issues. How if our

00:21:05.449 --> 00:21:11.847
studies were gonna stand the CRE the
the test of credibility. Um So it

00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:17.906
really gave me an opportunity then
getting engaged and with the, with the

00:21:17.939 --> 00:21:24.276
Academy of Sciences to get a broader
perspective on how science could be

00:21:24.309 --> 00:21:29.647
should be ne was necessary to be done
in the Grand Canyon. We got hammered

00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:33.016
by the Academy of Science. Oh God, we
got hammered because we weren't

00:21:33.049 --> 00:21:38.585
doing that good. A science. It was
agency science. It was not plan out

00:21:38.618 --> 00:21:46.618
hypotheses, do credible um, reviews
and development, go out there, collect

00:21:47.078 --> 00:21:52.736
it. Um, in a credible manner, in a
robust manner, go through peer review

00:21:52.769 --> 00:21:57.597
to make sure it was. And we, it took
us a couple of years to come out of

00:21:57.630 --> 00:22:01.627
our first review from the academy and
I've got one of the books in there,

00:22:01.660 --> 00:22:05.785
but it's, um, I'm sure you've had
access to all those, but it, it made us

00:22:05.818 --> 00:22:11.016
better scientists. And so at this
point, they had jerked me back to Salt

00:22:11.049 --> 00:22:14.085
Lake because they didn't like the fact
that I was getting a little too

00:22:14.118 --> 00:22:17.847
close to the scientists and they
wanted me to be removed from the

00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:23.295
scientists. And um so that when, you
know, I went back to Salt Lake for a

00:22:23.328 --> 00:22:29.456
while from Flagstaff and then con and
come back around to George Miller.

00:22:29.489 --> 00:22:33.647
Um George Miller was now chairman of
the Natural Resources Committee in

00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:38.597
the House of Representatives. He had
taken over for Mo Udall who has had

00:22:38.630 --> 00:22:45.397
just rescinded. Mo was almost ready to
pass away. And um George and, and

00:22:45.430 --> 00:22:52.176
his staff director first, it was
George and his um sub-committee, staff

00:22:52.209 --> 00:22:57.016
director, Dan Beard who called me and
said the chairman would like to know

00:22:57.049 --> 00:23:00.607
more about what's going on in the
Grand Canyon. So that's when I first

00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:04.776
started interacting more with Dan. I
had known him before I met him before

00:23:04.809 --> 00:23:09.246
when he was part of the Carter
administration earlier on, but I didn't

00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:12.887
really work with him. Now, I was
starting to work with Dan And then when

00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:16.436
Dan got elevated to staff director for
the whole Natural Resources

00:23:16.469 --> 00:23:21.815
Committee, uh Dan had considerable
clout in being able to get George out

00:23:21.848 --> 00:23:25.956
in front on issues and he wanted to
get George Miller out in front on

00:23:25.989 --> 00:23:31.906
issues. So, um we started having these
discussions and I could call back

00:23:31.939 --> 00:23:37.137
to Washington to brief them probably
once every quarter, every three or

00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:43.535
four months to go back and just keep
the congressman and his folks

00:23:43.568 --> 00:23:48.565
informed of what was going on. Is this
still 1980? These are the early

00:23:48.598 --> 00:23:53.956
eighties, middle, middle to the, well,
it was probably 8485 somewhere in

00:23:53.989 --> 00:23:59.436
there concurrent with this. And the
reason George had George Miller had

00:23:59.469 --> 00:24:03.986
moved up to being a powerful person in
the Natural Resources Committee.

00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:08.746
George was going after the bureau big
time in California over the water

00:24:08.779 --> 00:24:13.266
issues. And to this day, it's still
one of George's pet peeves on how the

00:24:13.299 --> 00:24:18.186
bureau of reclamation literally and
still does subsidize Westlands water

00:24:18.219 --> 00:24:22.506
district and all the big guys who own
trend. They're, they're mega

00:24:22.539 --> 00:24:28.496
millionaires out there who are getting
subsidized federal power and making

00:24:28.529 --> 00:24:32.696
huge money over this hand over fist.
Plus then we subsidize it for crops

00:24:32.729 --> 00:24:36.325
on top of it. So they're just, and
George always, and it was always a bur

00:24:36.358 --> 00:24:39.815
under his saddle. And so anything that
involved the bureau of reclamation

00:24:39.848 --> 00:24:45.266
, what was the next thing after
California? Well, and California had just

00:24:45.299 --> 00:24:49.107
gone through Chesterson Reservoir, the
water quality issues out there

00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:54.506
where Dave Houston, the, the then
regional director was um foot and mouth

00:24:54.539 --> 00:24:58.835
disease time and got exposed on 60
minutes for lying about water quality.

00:24:58.868 --> 00:25:03.295
And so George was after the bureau, so
George adopted me. It's more or

00:25:03.328 --> 00:25:07.637
less because I was, you know, I was
next r river over I was the Colorado

00:25:07.670 --> 00:25:11.555
River. We were working on these issues
and we were proven the Bureau had

00:25:11.588 --> 00:25:16.035
been operating that dam without any
consideration for downstream resources.

00:25:16.068 --> 00:25:19.627
We whether it's the Grand Canyon
beaches, whether it was archaeological

00:25:19.660 --> 00:25:23.736
resources, whether it was endangered
fish, whether it was, you know,

00:25:23.769 --> 00:25:27.666
whatever was going on downstream, the
bureau could care less. The bureau

00:25:27.699 --> 00:25:33.597
had also picked a fight with the
National Park Service over impacts

00:25:33.630 --> 00:25:38.256
associated with the operation of the
dam. And then there was a um a

00:25:38.289 --> 00:25:42.516
superintendent by the name of Dick
Marks. Dick Marks did not like the

00:25:42.549 --> 00:25:46.467
bureau because the bureau would never
do what the Park Service wanted the

00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:50.555
Bureau to do in the, you know, with
Glen Canyon Dam to help mitigate some

00:25:50.588 --> 00:25:54.305
of the impacts that were going on in
the Grand Canyon. And this was the

00:25:54.338 --> 00:25:59.555
years where they were fluctuating from
highs of 34,000 to lows of 3000 at

00:25:59.588 --> 00:26:04.666
night. So you had this huge swings and
boats were getting hung up and

00:26:04.699 --> 00:26:11.347
beaches were exposed and then cutting
away and, and at one point early on

00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:15.446
the Glen Canyon environmental studies
were to be located at Grand Canyon

00:26:15.479 --> 00:26:21.217
National Park. Dick Marks said South
Rim South Ramp. He said over my dead

00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:25.426
body, will I ever let a bureau of
reclamation establish an office at Grand

00:26:25.459 --> 00:26:30.847
Canyon? So that's when I have pushed
the flight staff. But um so all this

00:26:30.880 --> 00:26:34.367
was going on and George didn't like
the Bureau Park Service didn't like

00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:38.805
the bureau. The bureau had this big
study now going on in the Grand Canyon

00:26:38.838 --> 00:26:43.397
, Glen Canyon dam issues. We had the
flood where we almost lost the dam in

00:26:43.430 --> 00:26:49.295
83 was costing three times what the
bureau estimated to fix the spillways.

00:26:49.328 --> 00:26:54.436
It was just the bureau was out of
control and George was gonna use this

00:26:54.469 --> 00:26:59.617
le help. So anyway, we're down. I had
been jerked back to Salt Lake. Um I

00:26:59.650 --> 00:27:03.137
think Rick Gold was assistant regional
director. I don't know who was at

00:27:03.170 --> 00:27:07.575
that point, but um we were on a river
trip downstream with and then I

00:27:07.608 --> 00:27:12.276
think Jack Davis was superintendent of
the park. Um I think Rick was on

00:27:12.309 --> 00:27:17.516
that. Rick Gold was on that trip. I
think Ken Maxi from WPA and George

00:27:17.549 --> 00:27:22.127
Miller and we were at George was you
could, I could just see George

00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:26.906
getting more steamed and more steamed
as we came downstream from le Ferry.

00:27:26.939 --> 00:27:30.016
He just didn't like what the bureau
was saying they were gonna do to

00:27:30.049 --> 00:27:34.496
these, with these studies. How you
know, we were gonna roll this through

00:27:34.529 --> 00:27:37.467
and get a NP A done real or no, we
weren't gonna do NE A then we're just

00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:44.436
not gonna include N EPA at all. And,
and how I was gonna remain in Salt

00:27:44.469 --> 00:27:48.285
Lake so they could keep control of me
and George. We were at Grape Vine

00:27:48.318 --> 00:27:53.656
Beach to this day. I will remember
this. As long as I live, I brought

00:27:53.689 --> 00:27:59.256
Georgetown a beverage and he, he, I
could just see that this was not, he

00:27:59.289 --> 00:28:02.967
was not happy and he basically walked
back up the beach after this

00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:08.055
beverage and sat down with guys and
said, this is what's gonna happen.

00:28:08.088 --> 00:28:14.367
Congress is gonna start more oversight
on the Glen Canyon studies. So,

00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:19.016
and he is moving back to Flagstaff and
if you don't like that, I do have

00:28:19.049 --> 00:28:22.535
control over your appropriations of
your reclamation and you're gonna

00:28:22.568 --> 00:28:26.835
start seeing a lot more, um, things
get thrown your way that you're not

00:28:26.868 --> 00:28:31.805
gonna like. And so at that point, we
all get down to Phantom. Um, what

00:28:31.838 --> 00:28:36.467
year was this? I, I'm gonna say this
was 86 maybe 87 somewhere in there.

00:28:36.500 --> 00:28:42.647
Um, but being what it may, um, I moved
back down Flagstaff for the second

00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:47.476
time at that point and I was allowed
then to start building part of the

00:28:47.509 --> 00:28:53.785
staff so we could get after this. Um,
George. True to George's word. Kept

00:28:53.818 --> 00:29:01.156
this thing spun up in Washington so
much so that by 89 the bureau and the

00:29:01.189 --> 00:29:05.377
department were in a position where
they were gonna get Congress telling

00:29:05.410 --> 00:29:10.877
them how to operate Glen Canyon Dam
again, they didn't want that. And I

00:29:10.910 --> 00:29:15.325
got a phone call late at night from
the commi the acting commissioner of

00:29:15.358 --> 00:29:22.186
reclamation. He was obviously had had
a beverage or too and said, well,

00:29:22.219 --> 00:29:27.967
you got your damn EIS and slam the
phone down.

00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.156
Um,

00:29:30.189 --> 00:29:35.967
you know, being what it is, we had the
EIS we had the direction that we

00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:41.295
were gonna do the environmental impact
statement. And at this point, you

00:29:41.328 --> 00:29:45.486
know, it was clear that the bureau was
gonna throw any hurdle they could

00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:51.717
in this to not, not make it succeed.
So along with the National Academy of

00:29:51.750 --> 00:29:57.877
Sciences, I had, let's see, find it
real quick. I had initiated a program

00:29:57.910 --> 00:30:03.805
where I brought together the
representatives of the agencies than what I

00:30:03.838 --> 00:30:08.526
call the executive review committee
because I could see that I was gonna

00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:13.666
get screwed and the studies were gonna
get screwed big time if I didn't

00:30:13.699 --> 00:30:21.127
have some folks who were above me who
knew what we were doing. And the

00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:25.196
Academy of Science that you are really
should have, you know, some sort of

00:30:25.229 --> 00:30:29.785
organizational direction to this. And
this is where the executive review

00:30:29.818 --> 00:30:34.285
committee, this ultimately became what
emerges today as the Adaptive

00:30:34.318 --> 00:30:39.045
Management Committee. It was only a
group of five at that point and it was

00:30:39.078 --> 00:30:43.926
only federal agencies plus Arizona
game. And fish. But I didn't have,

00:30:43.959 --> 00:30:47.446
there was nothing, you know, adaptive
management. I was writing on

00:30:47.479 --> 00:30:51.335
adaptive management. At this point, I
brought it up to these folks gave

00:30:51.368 --> 00:30:55.637
them presentations on it, starting to
educate them because I could see

00:30:55.670 --> 00:31:00.026
this is where ultimately, even if we,
this was pre N A, even if we didn't

00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:04.805
do NE A, we had to come up with a
better way to manage our patterns of

00:31:04.838 --> 00:31:10.295
operations at Glen Canyon Dam. So the
executive review committee became my

00:31:10.328 --> 00:31:15.717
forum and we met quarterly, either in
Albuquerque or Phoenix or Salt Lake

00:31:15.750 --> 00:31:20.607
or wherever the it would need it to go
um to make sure and the Department

00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:24.805
of Interior was involved. So the
secretary's office was involved in the

00:31:24.838 --> 00:31:29.617
executive review committee and that
was Pat Port out of San Francisco,

00:31:29.650 --> 00:31:34.906
their regional office in San
Francisco. So at this point, and then we

00:31:34.939 --> 00:31:38.696
would go back to Washington
periodically to give updates and reviews to

00:31:38.729 --> 00:31:44.055
the secretary's office and to Congress
and to members of Congress. So that

00:31:44.088 --> 00:31:49.147
knowing that this was still kind of
expanding after we got implemented

00:31:49.180 --> 00:31:54.065
into roped into doing the full Nepa
compliance that changed the whole

00:31:54.098 --> 00:31:59.226
perspective of the program because at
that point, science needed to

00:31:59.259 --> 00:32:06.496
support the N A and NI A. Um They
learned from how I ran the studies that

00:32:06.529 --> 00:32:11.877
they didn't want me to begin running
the N A two. They knew that they did

00:32:11.910 --> 00:32:16.956
not want that, but I still had enough
control through the other processes.

00:32:16.989 --> 00:32:21.406
So they tried a couple of folks, they
brought in a guy from Washington DC

00:32:21.439 --> 00:32:26.246
to do the N A. They at that 0.0 I was
moved back to Salt Lake again for

00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:31.906
this and we actually set up this
fella. Um Steve, what was his last name?

00:32:31.939 --> 00:32:37.467
I think of it here. Um He was his
claim to fame is he was dating Senator

00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:40.545
Paul Lack Salt's daughter.

00:32:40.578 --> 00:32:45.785
So he would have this and I had a
staff of one at this point. I had a

00:32:45.818 --> 00:32:52.217
secretary who was assigned to keep
watch over me and watch over Steve. Um

00:32:52.250 --> 00:32:55.766
They moved us out of the bureau
building cause they didn't even want the N

00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:59.176
A in the Bureau of Reclamation
building in Salt Lake City. We were moved

00:32:59.209 --> 00:33:03.335
to the key bank building which is
downtown Salt Lake, but it used to be

00:33:03.368 --> 00:33:08.256
the old um CCM I area. I, I think it's
all been now changed with the

00:33:08.289 --> 00:33:11.746
Mormons Church, bought all that and
redeveloped it down there, but we were

00:33:11.779 --> 00:33:14.776
in the key bank building. So we were
physically removed from the bureau.

00:33:14.809 --> 00:33:20.325
Um They didn't want us even in the
regional office because we were doing

00:33:20.358 --> 00:33:25.607
this N A on the sacred thing called
Glen Canyon Dam. They knew that if we

00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:29.166
started NP A, we're likely gonna have
to do some changes. They didn't want

00:33:29.199 --> 00:33:35.785
to be in big, big and be involved in
that So then Steve didn't work out. I

00:33:35.818 --> 00:33:38.805
was actually called over the regional
director's office and said we gotta

00:33:38.838 --> 00:33:42.696
fire this guy because he's not doing
anything. He showed up at 10 was at

00:33:42.729 --> 00:33:48.127
the health club from 1030 till two,
took a lunch and left at three. So he

00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:51.127
was not a good then they brought in
somebody from the Bureau of Indian

00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:54.916
Affairs to run and they brought in
some folks from other agencies to try

00:33:54.949 --> 00:33:58.967
to run the and it just completely
cratered because they just, you know,

00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:02.656
they couldn't work with the bureau
system and the bureau does business a

00:34:02.689 --> 00:34:06.357
whole lot different than any other
federal agency. And you gotta know the

00:34:06.390 --> 00:34:10.986
culture and you gotta know what levers
to pull, to get things done in the

00:34:11.019 --> 00:34:15.624
bureau. So this and we still had the
Academy of Science going on too. So I

00:34:15.657 --> 00:34:21.434
had that piece going on, we had the
science going on. So we were still

00:34:21.467 --> 00:34:25.914
looking at now that we are in the ne a
process. And because the science,

00:34:25.947 --> 00:34:29.515
then the na the National Academy of
Sciences had made a recommendation

00:34:29.548 --> 00:34:34.666
that I hire a senior level scientist.
So I did, I went out and hired

00:34:34.699 --> 00:34:40.526
somebody off the committee off their
committee, Duncan Patton uh from a su

00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:46.017
and his little, he was in a little
shopping center um west of main campus

00:34:46.050 --> 00:34:50.356
in Tempe. It was a little shopping
center place, there was a health club

00:34:50.389 --> 00:34:54.546
there and there was a restaurant where
we'd go get coffee and, and Paul.

00:34:54.579 --> 00:34:58.296
Paul, I can't think of his last name
was also, there was two or three

00:34:58.329 --> 00:35:04.865
people uh that were part of Duncan's
environmental staff there. So I hired

00:35:04.898 --> 00:35:07.756
Duncan to be the senior scientist. So
Duncan and I began this whole

00:35:07.789 --> 00:35:12.155
process of really charting out what
the academy wanted to see as good

00:35:12.188 --> 00:35:17.456
science, what the bureau wanted to
see, needed to have to do in need of

00:35:17.489 --> 00:35:23.686
compliance. Now, the way the bureau
was hamstring the N A process because

00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:29.206
they just slow ball. It, so we had
three or four people who came in, they

00:35:29.239 --> 00:35:34.807
tried to run N A and it just wasn't
going anywhere because the bureau

00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:37.796
wasn't gonna throw any muscle behind
this and they kept bringing in people

00:35:37.829 --> 00:35:43.615
that couldn't do the job. And, but
meantime, the science was going on and

00:35:43.648 --> 00:35:51.648
about 1991 1990 91 Grand Canyon Trust
and a couple of other organizations

00:35:54.188 --> 00:36:01.126
and was starting to get upset that
this thing wasn't moving faster. It was

00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:05.787
started in 89. The N A compliance was,
it should be moving along and it

00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:12.175
wasn't. So for a lot of reasons. Um
And several, there was one big lawsuit.

00:36:12.208 --> 00:36:14.865
Uh I should, this is a good point
because it actually is one of the

00:36:14.898 --> 00:36:18.925
reasons the bureau felt they had to do
the NE A I want to say in the

00:36:18.958 --> 00:36:26.106
spring of 88 maybe. The middle of 88.
Um, a lawsuit was filed against

00:36:26.139 --> 00:36:30.856
Western Area Power Administration
because the WAP A was reinstituting

00:36:30.889 --> 00:36:37.655
power contracts for cr the color of
storage project. Every period,

00:36:37.688 --> 00:36:42.537
periodically you have to go out and
issue new power contracts for people

00:36:42.570 --> 00:36:50.066
who are buying your electricity. Um A
lawsuit was made against W A that

00:36:50.099 --> 00:36:55.916
these contracts impacted how the
bureau operated the dam and for a lot of

00:36:55.949 --> 00:37:00.276
reasons, of course, the bureau said,
no, we operate the dam anyway. We

00:37:00.309 --> 00:37:04.037
want to operate the dam because we're
the bureau. Wus said, well, we think

00:37:04.070 --> 00:37:07.416
we just tell the bureau, we have a
contract and this is what you gotta do.

00:37:07.449 --> 00:37:10.767
That's what they got pseudo is that
those power contracts were really

00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:15.557
important to driving how the
operations of the dam really resulted in the

00:37:15.590 --> 00:37:20.037
, in the hour by hour issue. The
bureau said, well, we operate on an

00:37:20.070 --> 00:37:24.997
annual basis and on a, on a monthly
basis. That's, that's the parameters

00:37:25.030 --> 00:37:30.256
we give to WP A and then wap A figures
out the hourly by minute by minute

00:37:30.289 --> 00:37:34.557
, day by day based on what the power
grid needs. And it's really those

00:37:34.590 --> 00:37:39.206
contracts that were driving this huge
fluctuation that you saw at Clean

00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:42.626
Canyon Dam. Well, that's another place
where I got sideways to the bureau

00:37:42.659 --> 00:37:49.385
because I got called as a witness by
the, the people who were suing the

00:37:49.418 --> 00:37:55.086
bureau in W A. So here I am, I'm, you
know, the courtroom beings being

00:37:55.119 --> 00:38:01.057
deposed. And then in a courtroom in
Salt Lake City Federal Court, um

00:38:01.090 --> 00:38:05.967
basically asking and being asked by
the judge do the operations of Glen

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.376
Canyon Dam have an impact on the
downstream environment, physical

00:38:09.409 --> 00:38:14.936
biological recreation. The data was
clear, I I can't lie. Absolutely. It

00:38:14.969 --> 00:38:18.186
does. And he said, well, can you and I
had, we had some videos that we had

00:38:18.219 --> 00:38:23.155
taken and slides and such. So I gave
this all interesting little tangent

00:38:23.188 --> 00:38:28.356
to this. The lawyer for all of this
was to plaintiffs for the plaintiffs

00:38:28.389 --> 00:38:33.727
was Ty Cobb who is today just been
announced as the president of the

00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:40.416
United States lawyer. That's the ty
com that's representing Donald Trump

00:38:40.449 --> 00:38:45.845
right now. Got appointed what? 323
weeks ago. Anyway, Ty and I became

00:38:45.878 --> 00:38:49.865
great friends because he knew I had
the answer and, and, and he is the

00:38:49.898 --> 00:38:55.526
grandson of Ty Cobb, the baseball
player and he is pugnacious. He is, he

00:38:55.559 --> 00:39:01.086
will rip you a new one and he's very,
very good at it. And he's, and, but

00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:06.115
we developed a real, a friendship
about the same time Grand Canyon Trust

00:39:06.148 --> 00:39:11.945
had emerged and Ed Norton was the, the
executive director of Grand Canyon

00:39:11.978 --> 00:39:15.865
Trust. Bruce Babbitt was one of the
founding members of Grand Canyon Trust.

00:39:15.898 --> 00:39:19.756
This was right before Mr Clinton was
elected president. So Bruce was

00:39:19.789 --> 00:39:24.396
involved in this, he was Governor of
Arizona. He would come down to, I

00:39:24.429 --> 00:39:28.425
would run into him on weekends in the
Grand Canyon because he liked to go

00:39:28.458 --> 00:39:32.557
hike in the Grand Canyon and he
actually broke one of my cable cars in the

00:39:32.590 --> 00:39:36.425
Grand Canyon, which he's never paid
for by the way. But his secret service

00:39:36.458 --> 00:39:41.936
guys or his governor, um, security guy
at that point. Um, anyway, it was,

00:39:41.969 --> 00:39:47.175
uh, so Bruce was in the Grand Canyon
Trust were pushing this, you had this

00:39:47.208 --> 00:39:53.425
lawsuit with that, the, the plaintiffs
won and wap A had to initiate N A

00:39:53.458 --> 00:39:57.026
compliance. Well, that was the death
knell for Glen Canyon for the Bureau

00:39:57.059 --> 00:40:00.635
because they knew that if they were
gonna have to do NP A compliance on

00:40:00.668 --> 00:40:05.046
operations that they were gonna get
roped into doing N A compliance on

00:40:05.079 --> 00:40:10.517
going on the whole operations of
Glenn. So that's how the NP A process

00:40:10.550 --> 00:40:14.767
really got structured and why they
didn't want me to run it because I was

00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:20.086
always, I was already on the outer
side because I had been called as it is.

00:40:20.119 --> 00:40:24.827
Yeah. And so it was always an
interesting, I was being, um, cross

00:40:24.860 --> 00:40:29.267
examined by a department of justice
lawyer while my lawyer was ty up. You

00:40:29.300 --> 00:40:32.287
know, it's just, I don't know how all
this worked out, but it did for a

00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:36.936
lot of reasons. But so the executive
review committee was, was trying to

00:40:36.969 --> 00:40:40.517
transition out knowing that they'd
have to go to A N A process, but they

00:40:40.550 --> 00:40:44.356
were still in, they were involved
almost all the way through the thing we

00:40:44.389 --> 00:40:48.666
had, um, the National Academy of
Sciences continuing to put out their

00:40:48.699 --> 00:40:51.017
reports.

00:40:51.050 --> 00:40:55.655
And then out of all of this, the Grand
Canyon Protection Act was born and

00:40:55.688 --> 00:41:02.385
it was, its genesis was on a beach in
the Grand Canyon. Um, where Ed

00:41:02.418 --> 00:41:06.046
Norton, Ed Norton and I actually
talked about the need to do a Grand

00:41:06.079 --> 00:41:10.517
Canyon Protection Act in the old
Howard Johnson's restaurant in Flagstaff

00:41:10.550 --> 00:41:15.037
on, uh, route 40 there. Um One evening
he told me this talk till three in

00:41:15.070 --> 00:41:18.307
the morning, I had a lot of coffee
that night over what the, what a Grand

00:41:18.340 --> 00:41:22.695
Canyon Protection Act might look like
and what did it need to include and

00:41:22.728 --> 00:41:26.106
how might that look? And of course, if
it had been public that I was

00:41:26.139 --> 00:41:29.956
working with Grand Canyon Trust or any
of these folks, but Ed and I had,

00:41:29.989 --> 00:41:33.706
we had a relation, you know, when you
were a staff of and you were on your

00:41:33.739 --> 00:41:39.916
own and there was nobody literally to
supervise me. Um, I went out and did

00:41:39.949 --> 00:41:44.095
what I felt was right. I didn't do it
if it was a bureau a or anything

00:41:44.128 --> 00:41:47.546
else. I just wanted to get the job
done and make sure that we were doing

00:41:47.579 --> 00:41:51.135
what was right for the Grand Canyon.
And so out of that, the Grand Canyon

00:41:51.168 --> 00:41:55.195
Protection Act was, was born, took,
took a couple of times to get it

00:41:55.228 --> 00:41:59.345
passed. It was finally passed. In 92
as part of a larger omnibus bill. But

00:41:59.378 --> 00:42:05.506
that is where the genesis of adaptive
management that then became embraced

00:42:05.539 --> 00:42:11.606
in the EIS began. And if you go and
look at the committee reports and

00:42:11.639 --> 00:42:16.467
everything that goes along with it,
this concept and we, and keep in mind

00:42:16.500 --> 00:42:21.497
that I've been going back to
Washington and doing briefings for folks and

00:42:21.530 --> 00:42:26.396
I would always bring up, we gotta do
monitoring and science different

00:42:26.429 --> 00:42:30.276
after we get through this folks
because we're gonna have a, we're not

00:42:30.309 --> 00:42:33.916
gonna know, we're not gonna be able to
know everything going into this.

00:42:33.949 --> 00:42:37.276
And I, at that point had already
started reading what they were doing in

00:42:37.309 --> 00:42:41.706
the Northwest and around the country
on this concept at that point of

00:42:41.739 --> 00:42:45.945
adaptive management and how we might
structure that. And along about 87 I

00:42:45.978 --> 00:42:49.456
remember making a presentation to the
executive review committee about

00:42:49.489 --> 00:42:52.606
adaptive management. This is what
they're doing in the North Pacific

00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:55.885
Northwest. This is what they're trying
to do and these are the reasons why

00:42:55.918 --> 00:42:59.787
we, they're doing it there and why we
might want to consider it. So George

00:42:59.820 --> 00:43:02.836
wanted to make sure George Miller
wanted to make sure it was captured in

00:43:02.869 --> 00:43:08.356
the Grand Canyon Protection Act, which
it was. And um and then it began to

00:43:08.389 --> 00:43:15.796
become a focal point in the ne a
document ne A process too. So along about

00:43:15.829 --> 00:43:18.756
and the reason this had to go is
because in here the other part that's

00:43:18.789 --> 00:43:21.997
important of the Grand Canyon
Protection Act is it, get it give an

00:43:22.030 --> 00:43:29.385
endpoint to the ne a process. It said
you will be done by the end of 1996.

00:43:29.418 --> 00:43:35.175
So that being said it gave us now a
timeline, the bureau couldn't wiggle

00:43:35.208 --> 00:43:38.876
out of this, even though they could
make it look bad, they couldn't get

00:43:38.909 --> 00:43:41.776
out of doing Nepa compliance

00:43:41.809 --> 00:43:47.405
by just slow balling it still walking
it. So the timeline was set. Duncan

00:43:47.438 --> 00:43:51.876
Patton had been hired as a senior
scientist, Duncan and I met almost every

00:43:51.909 --> 00:43:56.566
week down at a su on some issue or
another because we were really trying

00:43:56.599 --> 00:44:00.686
to ramp up the studies to meet. Now,
the ne a need and that's when we got

00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:05.986
into this idea of doing interim flows.
We needed to have 1011 day periods

00:44:06.019 --> 00:44:09.675
of certain flow regimes and have
scientists spread out in the canyon to

00:44:09.708 --> 00:44:13.997
look at what different flow regime
different. Ultimately, they became the

00:44:14.030 --> 00:44:19.445
elements of the alternatives that were
in the EIS. So we did a whole for a

00:44:19.478 --> 00:44:25.396
year and a half. We did various
ramping rates, differences, highs, lows,

00:44:25.429 --> 00:44:31.477
seasonal, looking at seasonal pieces.
And every 10 days, we were up in a

00:44:31.510 --> 00:44:35.497
helicopter flying the Grand Canyon,
taking pictures as the flows dropped

00:44:35.530 --> 00:44:39.537
out to see what the beaches had done,
see where backwaters were, see where

00:44:39.570 --> 00:44:45.095
different um issues had come, had
arisen with rapids. And you know, we

00:44:45.128 --> 00:44:49.747
were where rapids were debris flows or
looking at the science and how all

00:44:49.780 --> 00:44:56.186
this was put together. So I asked for
some clarification on that. So um

00:44:56.219 --> 00:45:03.416
who provided the authority to force
the Bureau to do those flows that the

00:45:03.449 --> 00:45:07.376
scientist said we'd like to a great
can of protection there, any

00:45:07.409 --> 00:45:11.787
protection that gave the endpoint and
backing up from when you had to have

00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:17.467
a draft done and then when you had to
get the science done, we only had a

00:45:17.500 --> 00:45:21.767
couple of years to physically get the
science that we needed. And Duncan

00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:25.445
and I both agreed the only way we're
gonna do this if they wanted us to

00:45:25.478 --> 00:45:30.727
look at a variety of alternatives was
to run a series of alternatives. So

00:45:30.760 --> 00:45:34.986
the authority came from the fact that
the Bureau had to abide by the Grand

00:45:35.019 --> 00:45:38.327
Canyon Protection Act. Now they were
under a lawsuit at the other end that

00:45:38.360 --> 00:45:42.977
said you will do ne A so it wasn't if
they knew that if they didn't do,

00:45:43.010 --> 00:45:46.296
but they were going to get sued and
now Congress was going to take even

00:45:46.329 --> 00:45:51.635
more control if they weren't
satisfied. So, and a new administration is

00:45:51.668 --> 00:45:55.727
coming in right about that time and lo
and behold who becomes commissioner

00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:58.396
of the Bureau of reclamation,

00:45:58.429 --> 00:46:03.057
staff person for George Miller.
Exactly. He had been staff director for

00:46:03.090 --> 00:46:09.195
George Natural Resources Committee.
So, um Dan went down to be

00:46:09.228 --> 00:46:11.956
commissioner. He didn't necessarily,
he was offered the position of

00:46:11.989 --> 00:46:15.646
assistant secretary. He didn't take
that because he said I want a position

00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:19.626
where I have some money or I can do
something with it. And Dan, being Dan

00:46:19.659 --> 00:46:25.756
, um, he's a go getter. He is, he goes
in and fixes things. He's always

00:46:25.789 --> 00:46:30.416
been a fixer, but he's good for about
2 to 3 years before. Then. He's just

00:46:30.449 --> 00:46:35.026
, he gets tired of it and he wants to
move on to the next challenge. So he

00:46:35.059 --> 00:46:39.227
told me he had two years probably in
as commissioner and that, oh, by the

00:46:39.260 --> 00:46:42.986
way, you're now working for me as
commissioner, even though your paycheck

00:46:43.019 --> 00:46:48.037
is, comes out of the regional office.
You're, you report to me. So you

00:46:48.070 --> 00:46:51.486
wanna know who the authority was? It
was Dan Beard and the commission,

00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:55.827
they said you whatever you need, you
got it. And Bruce Babbitt at that

00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:59.787
point was Secretary of Interior. So
Bruce was interested in this because

00:46:59.820 --> 00:47:04.655
of the Grand Canyon and you know, his
relationship with it. Um Secretary

00:47:04.688 --> 00:47:09.836
of Interior Arizona boy, um, the Grand
Canyon Protection Act was sponsored

00:47:09.869 --> 00:47:14.905
by not only George Miller but John
mccain. So Senator mccain and I became

00:47:14.938 --> 00:47:19.077
very good friends. Um, and his staff,
we talked a lot, Senator Bell

00:47:19.110 --> 00:47:23.747
Bradley, um, who was in the Senate at
that point, um, in the committee

00:47:23.780 --> 00:47:28.816
that was over on the Senate side for
the same thing. Um Tom Jensen, who

00:47:28.849 --> 00:47:32.626
worked for Senator Bradley became very
interested in the Grand Canyon more

00:47:32.659 --> 00:47:37.456
because he liked to do river trips. Um
So we spent a, I spent a lot of

00:47:37.489 --> 00:47:42.166
time, I didn't necessarily start out
this way, but I ended up this way,

00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:47.836
cultivating the beltway so that they
supported what we were doing. And

00:47:47.869 --> 00:47:52.967
that worked great for a while. But
then, you know, you get that phone call

00:47:53.000 --> 00:47:57.416
from your boss and friend Dan Beard
one day and said, well, I'm leaving.

00:47:57.449 --> 00:48:00.166
I've had enough. I don't want to take
any more of this because he was

00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:07.456
getting a lot of pushback from Babbitt
on issues more because Vice at that

00:48:07.489 --> 00:48:14.066
point, Bill Clinton was secretary. Um
Gore was Vice President, Gore had

00:48:14.099 --> 00:48:19.086
instituted a program called the
Goldman Hammer Award where he was gonna go

00:48:19.119 --> 00:48:22.236
up and clean up the government. You
know, get rid of. There used to be the

00:48:22.269 --> 00:48:26.646
old Golden Fleece award that William
Proxmire had. Well, Al Gore had the

00:48:26.679 --> 00:48:31.276
Golden Hammer Award and so he wanted
people and Dan Beard was his poster

00:48:31.309 --> 00:48:35.307
child cause Dan went through and
completely redid how the bureau of

00:48:35.340 --> 00:48:38.756
reclamation was managed and created a
whole lot of enemies in the bureau

00:48:38.789 --> 00:48:42.905
to this day there, the bureau is full
of people who hate damn beer because

00:48:42.938 --> 00:48:46.356
he changed the way the bureau did
business. He got them out, you know, he

00:48:46.389 --> 00:48:50.077
closed the human desal plant. So we're
done with that quite often we're

00:48:50.110 --> 00:48:53.876
not gonna do because it's not
cost-effective. It's not, it's never gonna

00:48:53.909 --> 00:48:57.017
be cost-effective. It's been a white
elephant from day one. It's gonna

00:48:57.050 --> 00:49:01.057
always, he did things in California
and he took on the Colorado River

00:49:01.090 --> 00:49:05.896
issue and there's a lot of people in
the bureau who don't still for that.

00:49:05.929 --> 00:49:10.885
But I became, again, you know, I was
working for Dan. So I was put on the

00:49:10.918 --> 00:49:14.807
outside and wasn't necessarily engaged
on a lot of the internal

00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:19.166
discussions that they were having in
Washington. Um, the next secretary or

00:49:19.199 --> 00:49:23.115
the next commissioner wasn't quite as
engaged. He was from New Mexico but

00:49:23.148 --> 00:49:27.497
wasn't as engaged. And Eid Martinez
was the, the next commissioner who

00:49:27.530 --> 00:49:30.405
came on to replace Dan, nice new guy
from New Mexico. If I wanted a

00:49:30.438 --> 00:49:35.546
grandfather, he'd be a really nice
guy, but just was not purposely, he was

00:49:35.579 --> 00:49:39.615
not Dan beard and Bruce didn't want
somebody like a Dan beard as

00:49:39.648 --> 00:49:44.727
commissioner again. So, um, all of
this and so adaptive management and

00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:48.296
then the bureau decided they were
gonna have the Denver office kind of be

00:49:48.329 --> 00:49:53.057
the point on the ne A process. And
that's when Tim Randall and that crew

00:49:53.090 --> 00:49:57.595
started the physical writing of ne A
out of the Denver technical service.

00:49:57.628 --> 00:50:01.236
Why did they move it from Salt Lake
City? I presume would have been

00:50:01.269 --> 00:50:05.706
because they had, they Salt Lake had
failed miserably. And in this whole

00:50:05.739 --> 00:50:09.445
process in completing the E I and
bringing people and trying to hire

00:50:09.478 --> 00:50:12.287
people to write the E I. So they just
could not get their proverbial act

00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:16.227
together and for a lot of reasons and
Dan was one of them. They got moved

00:50:16.260 --> 00:50:20.686
to Den and Tim Randall and company
picked it up and they did, they did a

00:50:20.719 --> 00:50:23.845
great job. I think the world. Tim
worked for me in the Grand Canyon early

00:50:23.878 --> 00:50:28.467
on. So I've known Tim a long time and
we're now in the mid 19 nineties.

00:50:28.500 --> 00:50:33.077
Yeah, we're in the mid, well, probably
in 9394 era in there. How long was

00:50:33.110 --> 00:50:38.796
Dan Commissioner to let me see, when
did Clinton come in? 90 93 93 he was

00:50:38.829 --> 00:50:43.845
two years. So he left in 95 right
before um, we got to the real heavy lift

00:50:43.878 --> 00:50:48.086
, but it was all right because he had
gotten us through the piece we

00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:52.626
needed to have cover for and we need a
lot of cover in those days because

00:50:52.659 --> 00:50:56.706
people were not happy that we were
playing around with the flows. Trying

00:50:56.739 --> 00:51:00.967
to do the Science. The Academy of
Science kept pushing us to do more, uh,

00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:05.736
issues associated with that. Congress
was becoming more engaged and wanted

00:51:05.769 --> 00:51:11.405
to have a dialogue on this for diff
for a lot of reasons. And so out of,

00:51:11.438 --> 00:51:16.365
and, and the studies have gotten some
notoriety because of what we were

00:51:16.398 --> 00:51:19.546
doing. People from all over the world.
I think everybody wants to go to

00:51:19.579 --> 00:51:23.066
the Grand Canyon and see what was
going on. And so we were getting a lot

00:51:23.099 --> 00:51:30.526
of push on this. And then out of this
for three, for two years prior to 96

00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:35.885
Duncan and myself and the scientific
group said we really need to do a

00:51:35.918 --> 00:51:40.626
physical test of adaptive management.
We need to do a, we think we need to

00:51:40.659 --> 00:51:45.557
do an experimental flood of some sort
to redistribute sediments because

00:51:45.590 --> 00:51:50.666
the beaches were going in the Grand
Canyon at an alarming rate. Um Even

00:51:50.699 --> 00:51:53.916
with because of some of it was because
of the interim flows that we

00:51:53.949 --> 00:51:58.655
instituted some of it because it was
just the nature. We don't have any

00:51:58.688 --> 00:52:03.606
sediment coming into the system
anymore. And the system had caught up in

00:52:03.639 --> 00:52:11.006
the mid and when we started the
program, after the early before the flood

00:52:11.039 --> 00:52:17.517
in 83 the system had been slowly
pushing the sediment out of Marble Canyon

00:52:17.550 --> 00:52:21.666
at rates and but nobody was monitoring
at that point. So we knew the

00:52:21.699 --> 00:52:25.327
beaches were getting smaller
downstream, but no numbers but no numbers.

00:52:25.360 --> 00:52:30.327
After 83 the first flood in 83 there
were huge beaches in the Grand

00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:34.186
Canyon because all that sediment that
was on the bottom of the river got

00:52:34.219 --> 00:52:39.497
churned up by 90,000 cubic feet per
second and redeposited high. So they

00:52:39.530 --> 00:52:42.506
were shouldn't probably tell us, but
they were landing airplanes down in

00:52:42.539 --> 00:52:46.595
National Canyon. Um There was a lot of
stuff going on. This was before the

00:52:46.628 --> 00:52:50.336
air rules came in at Grand Canyon
National Park. There was ac well, he's

00:52:50.369 --> 00:52:53.986
dead now so I can use his name. Martin
Litton was well known for flying

00:52:54.019 --> 00:52:58.436
his airplane up and down the canyon
and dropping, dropping ice cream for

00:52:58.469 --> 00:53:04.956
his crew for his, oh God, yeah, Martin
and I became great friends in later

00:53:04.989 --> 00:53:09.365
life. I have one of his original
stories in Durango. So he's, he's was a

00:53:09.398 --> 00:53:16.425
mentor to me um in many different
ways. In fact, in 19, the fall of 1983

00:53:16.458 --> 00:53:24.458
there was a, um, so this was after the
big flood, there was a outfitters

00:53:24.780 --> 00:53:28.706
meeting at the South Ramp. This is
where the concessionaires who have the

00:53:28.739 --> 00:53:31.896
contracts for running river trips in
the Grand Canyon. They used to get

00:53:31.929 --> 00:53:37.146
together every fall, usually December
at the south rim of the Grand Canyon

00:53:37.179 --> 00:53:41.807
and the superintendent will give them,
this is how you're gonna operate in

00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:44.845
my park, you know, and it was Dick
Marks superintendent. So it was, this

00:53:44.878 --> 00:53:50.396
is how you're gonna operate in my park
sort of thing. And, um, Martin and

00:53:50.429 --> 00:53:55.396
Georgie White, I don't know if you
ever heard of Georgie White or um, they

00:53:55.429 --> 00:53:58.956
took, they decided they needed to
figure out they didn't trust, nobody

00:53:58.989 --> 00:54:02.115
trusted the bureau. The bureau was
hated by the concessionaires by

00:54:02.148 --> 00:54:06.017
everybody for good, probably good
reasons. But they decided they needed to

00:54:06.050 --> 00:54:09.486
learn a little bit more about the
bureau and who I was and whether they

00:54:09.519 --> 00:54:14.086
could talk to me. So we closed the bar
at El Tovar a couple of nights

00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:19.827
running and over many martinis. Um
Martin said, well, I don't necessarily

00:54:19.860 --> 00:54:23.916
trust the bureau but I trust you. So
we're gonna, I'm gonna give you stuff

00:54:23.949 --> 00:54:29.666
, I'm gonna feed you stuff a lot of
old photographs, things like that, of

00:54:29.699 --> 00:54:35.155
what the river was like beforehand.
So, um long story short, there were

00:54:35.188 --> 00:54:40.296
several people who did that for the
studies because they, they appreciate

00:54:40.329 --> 00:54:44.695
historical information about the
historical, they would never give it to

00:54:44.728 --> 00:54:49.436
the bureau. They would give it to the
Glen Canyon studies because they saw

00:54:49.469 --> 00:54:53.247
that we were down there trying to do
our best and we were fumbling around

00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:58.385
and we admitted when we fumbled a lot.
And so we had to rebuild a lot of

00:54:58.418 --> 00:55:01.467
the process that we were and we were
learning as we were going, we were

00:55:01.500 --> 00:55:05.706
true adaptive management. From day
one, we learned as we went, we made

00:55:05.739 --> 00:55:09.736
tons of mistakes. We learned from the
mistakes and we moved forward. But

00:55:09.769 --> 00:55:15.756
out of all of this process, the, the
staff of the Glen Canyon studies went

00:55:15.789 --> 00:55:21.836
from being two or three of us to I had
100 and 60 scientists around the

00:55:21.869 --> 00:55:28.186
country working on this, on this
program. So we had, we had exploded and

00:55:28.219 --> 00:55:32.695
exponentially in my mind on how we
were doing the work to meet up to these

00:55:32.728 --> 00:55:38.227
needs. Adaptive management became that
focal point of the, of the EIS

00:55:38.260 --> 00:55:44.727
because it needed to be there. To be
different. And, you know, if you look

00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:50.506
, look at the original biological
opinions for the Columbia system, they

00:55:50.539 --> 00:55:55.115
don't talk about adaptive management.
Adaptive management didn't come in

00:55:55.148 --> 00:56:00.695
until really in terms of a government
dams perspective until now it's

00:56:00.728 --> 00:56:04.796
embraced all over the place. And I'm
so happy for that because it's, it

00:56:04.829 --> 00:56:09.706
needs to. Is it perfect? Absolutely
not. But it gives you a framework of

00:56:09.739 --> 00:56:14.856
process. So the first flood, it got
shot down the first time because we

00:56:14.889 --> 00:56:19.316
just, there were threats of lawsuits
got shot down the second time because

00:56:19.349 --> 00:56:23.956
trout unlimited was gonna sue the
bureau over impacts to the trout fishery

00:56:23.989 --> 00:56:28.506
below the dam, even though it's an
exotic species in a river below a dam.

00:56:28.539 --> 00:56:31.606
But nonetheless, the bureau wasn't
gonna go there, but we did get it the

00:56:31.639 --> 00:56:36.956
third time. And I remember Bruce Baba
calling me up and saying, well, I

00:56:36.989 --> 00:56:40.606
wasn't gonna come out, but now that
you've gotten your, the court approval

00:56:40.639 --> 00:56:45.807
to go ahead with this experimental
flood in March of 96 I'm gonna come out

00:56:45.840 --> 00:56:51.865
and so literally, I met him, I met
Bruce at the whatever the hotel is

00:56:51.898 --> 00:56:54.936
right, coming off the auto page on the
way to the dam when we had dinner

00:56:54.969 --> 00:56:59.006
that night and chat about a bunch of
things. But he was, of course, he was

00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:01.865
down at the base of the dam in the
morning on Good morning America and

00:57:01.898 --> 00:57:07.115
whatever you the Today show and
rightfully so, Secretary of Material, he

00:57:07.148 --> 00:57:11.267
ought to take all the credit for this.
And, uh, and so the flood, you know

00:57:11.300 --> 00:57:15.316
, it went off. And so he wanted all of
a sudden Bruce became very

00:57:15.349 --> 00:57:19.006
interested in what was going on below
the damn now that he knew we were

00:57:19.039 --> 00:57:22.606
gonna, we were gonna finish an EIS so
he was gonna be able to report to

00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:26.796
Congress on a positive note. We
weren't gonna get sued because that had

00:57:26.829 --> 00:57:31.037
been put away by the judge saying they
can do the flood, so to speak. And

00:57:31.070 --> 00:57:35.695
that we were getting a lot of credits
all over the world. And he was being

00:57:35.728 --> 00:57:40.537
asked to speak on what was going on in
the Colorado River and how his

00:57:40.570 --> 00:57:43.767
administration was changing the way
the bureau did business through Dan

00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:48.146
period even though Dan had left by
this time. And so Bruce was, you know,

00:57:48.179 --> 00:57:54.206
fairly emphatic that we were gonna
continue on this. And in fact, the

00:57:54.239 --> 00:58:00.655
night before the evening before the
floods started, he and I had a long,

00:58:00.688 --> 00:58:04.606
we went up, we got off the river. I
had taken a river trip with all the

00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:10.336
press and everybody from Glen Canyon
Dam down to Lees ferry. And there

00:58:10.369 --> 00:58:13.086
were a bunch of people on that trip, a
bunch of dignitaries and

00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:18.905
politicians and um press et cetera.
And so Bruce and I, we took a, we

00:58:18.938 --> 00:58:23.986
walked up into the cemetery at least
ferry pretty sacred spot. It is, to

00:58:24.019 --> 00:58:28.497
me, at least, you know, that's where
the folks who ran Lees ferry, that's

00:58:28.530 --> 00:58:31.836
where they're buried. You know, it's
pretty sacred spot. And we had a

00:58:31.869 --> 00:58:37.095
discussion that basically said, I'm so
happy with what has happened here,

00:58:37.128 --> 00:58:41.405
but we want to take what you've done
here at the Grand Canyon Studies and

00:58:41.438 --> 00:58:46.517
we wanna expand that to become a much
bigger program across the Bureau of

00:58:46.550 --> 00:58:50.615
reclamation. And we want you guys,
you're, we now are gonna have to set up

00:58:50.648 --> 00:58:55.767
this Grand Canyon Monitoring Center
because that's what he had agreed to

00:58:55.800 --> 00:59:00.327
do it. Um And it's gonna be set up in
Flagstaff and, but we were gonna

00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:05.776
keep your crew together basically to
do this adaptive management concept

00:59:05.809 --> 00:59:09.836
around the Bureau for a lot of
reasons. Uh I won't go into that didn't

00:59:09.869 --> 00:59:14.456
quite work out as he had told us it
would work out. And at that point, he

00:59:14.489 --> 00:59:19.175
Bruce was under a lot of pressure
because Congress had flipped and Newt

00:59:19.208 --> 00:59:25.445
Gingrich was now speaker of the house,
Newt was no way. No. How gonna let

00:59:25.478 --> 00:59:31.345
Bruce's biological survey survive? It
wasn't gonna happen. So Bruce was

00:59:31.378 --> 00:59:36.166
left trying to figure out how to take.
And his whole concept was to set up

00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:41.977
the biological survey to be a
replicate of the US Geological Survey. So

00:59:42.010 --> 00:59:45.997
it's gonna be a separate entity. So
ultimately, when Gingrich took away

00:59:46.030 --> 00:59:52.736
the money, took away the ability for
babbitt to do his job, essentially it

00:59:52.769 --> 00:59:55.787
forced Babbitt to take the eight
regional directors he had already

00:59:55.820 --> 00:59:59.885
selected to run the survey and
repopulate them in, back into what's now

00:59:59.918 --> 01:00:04.086
the US GS. And that's when all the
scientists and the park service, fish

01:00:04.119 --> 01:00:09.066
and Wildlife Service, the bureau, all
those got assimilated into the US GS.

01:00:09.099 --> 01:00:15.537
So the science programs and all the
agencies got cut off at the knees. So

01:00:15.570 --> 01:00:19.566
the all, I mean, it was, it was a bad
deal. It didn't, it wasn't Bruce's

01:00:19.599 --> 01:00:24.747
fault, but it was kind of his fault
that it ended up this way. And

01:00:24.780 --> 01:00:30.356
Gingrich and others made sure that
science was in my mind forever changed

01:00:30.389 --> 01:00:33.986
in the Department of the Interior and,
but adapt, we had float, adapt,

01:00:34.019 --> 01:00:37.436
manage work. I got called back to
Washington a bunch of times to, to uh

01:00:37.469 --> 01:00:42.557
talk about it. And uh and for a lot of
reasons, we decided to part ways

01:00:42.590 --> 01:00:47.537
and, but adaptive management, the
first experiment, the first full scale

01:00:47.570 --> 01:00:53.206
national experiment for adaptive
management was the flood that 1996 March

01:00:53.239 --> 01:00:59.666
, March, 1996. And we did, we had more
science going on and I had trips on

01:00:59.699 --> 01:01:05.146
the river for post and pre post during
flying helicopters in and out all

01:01:05.179 --> 01:01:10.727
the time. And it was just, it was, it
was a great time to be a scientist

01:01:10.760 --> 01:01:13.956
because we were really doing, we
didn't know what to expect. Nobody had

01:01:13.989 --> 01:01:18.936
ever done this before. Nobody. So, you
know, we just we had people from

01:01:18.969 --> 01:01:22.416
all over the country, all over the
world who came to see or participate in

01:01:22.449 --> 01:01:26.956
this. The nice thing that we were able
to do that they want, they will,

01:01:26.989 --> 01:01:31.977
they decided they never would allow
this again is that I coupled the power

01:01:32.010 --> 01:01:36.385
revenue money with other funds. So I
had epa money, I had money from

01:01:36.418 --> 01:01:40.956
National Geographic Society. I brought
in money from five or six sources

01:01:40.989 --> 01:01:47.057
to augment the basic science money.
And that really gave us flexibility to

01:01:47.090 --> 01:01:52.006
do the, the kind of adaptive
management that we felt we needed to do. Was

01:01:52.039 --> 01:01:56.416
was that how you got from a handful of
researchers and studies to 100 and

01:01:56.449 --> 01:02:00.905
60 part of that was bringing in al
alternative funding and going out and

01:02:00.938 --> 01:02:06.086
getting academia to step up and say,
I'll give you options to come on

01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:10.606
river trips and do science, the kind
of science we need if you'll, you

01:02:10.639 --> 01:02:16.086
know, backfill some of the costs for
your um for your um research people,

01:02:16.119 --> 01:02:20.706
you know, it's so we, we worked out a
lot of deals like that, that they,

01:02:20.739 --> 01:02:24.276
that they can't do now, they won't do
now. So that's just, you know, but

01:02:24.309 --> 01:02:28.385
that's what. But again, nobody gave us
any direction. But being involved

01:02:28.418 --> 01:02:33.655
with the National Academy of Sciences
gave me a perspective on how you

01:02:33.688 --> 01:02:38.276
could work this because the Academy at
this point was working, starting to

01:02:38.309 --> 01:02:42.135
work on the Everglades, starting they
were doing work on the Mississippi

01:02:42.168 --> 01:02:45.557
after the floods in the Mississippi in
the early nineties, working on the

01:02:45.590 --> 01:02:52.586
Columbia. So I got exposed to a much
broader context of scientists working

01:02:52.619 --> 01:02:58.686
on these large ecosystem based
programs that I never would have if I had

01:02:58.719 --> 01:03:03.626
stayed insulated just within the
bureau. So to this day, I mean, now I'm,

01:03:03.659 --> 01:03:10.356
I'm the academy now has me on their
board working on this issue. Um And

01:03:10.389 --> 01:03:14.276
specifically, they've asked me to come
and work on adaptive management,

01:03:14.309 --> 01:03:18.066
but they want to make that a key part
of the new Water science technology

01:03:18.099 --> 01:03:21.845
board approach is how can we take
adaptive management applied elsewhere?

01:03:21.878 --> 01:03:27.477
Part of that was because now fast
forward, I left the, I left the

01:03:27.510 --> 01:03:33.296
Department of the Interior. Um on
December 31st, 1996 had my own

01:03:33.329 --> 01:03:37.925
consulting firm that I started up
where I focused on river engineering and

01:03:37.958 --> 01:03:43.287
looking at issues around the world. So
I went to Siberia to Japan all over

01:03:43.320 --> 01:03:49.037
the world. Looking Costa Rica, looking
at Dam, how to re operate dams um

01:03:49.070 --> 01:03:54.506
out of that. Then here comes George
Miller back into my life. Um We have a

01:03:54.539 --> 01:04:02.539
new president who was elected Mr
Obama. Mr Obama had George Miller as one

01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:06.577
of his transition, folks.

01:04:06.610 --> 01:04:10.467
George was responsible for helping to
spool up what was gonna be the

01:04:10.500 --> 01:04:15.977
Department of the Interior and knowing
that um Ken Salazar was gonna be

01:04:16.010 --> 01:04:21.557
secretary, so Ken was kind of doing
his thing at his level. Um George

01:04:21.590 --> 01:04:26.727
wanted somebody to work with on the
hill who could be the Conduit for

01:04:26.760 --> 01:04:31.675
Congress working on with the agent,
somebody who knew the agency. So you

01:04:31.708 --> 01:04:34.247
had to know the agencies inside and
out, you had to know where the

01:04:34.280 --> 01:04:39.506
skeletons were buried. You had to know
how to work at that level and how

01:04:39.539 --> 01:04:43.655
to be able to communicate with them.
Somebody who also knew how to

01:04:43.688 --> 01:04:47.517
communicate with the scientific world.
So this the National Academy of

01:04:47.550 --> 01:04:51.945
Sciences, the Triple American uh AAA
S, all the quasi all the

01:04:51.978 --> 01:04:56.365
organizations who are on the science
side of academia who deal with water.

01:04:56.398 --> 01:05:01.405
So George calls me up and says, um the
president wants us to make a big

01:05:01.438 --> 01:05:07.405
push on this area with Western water
issues, specifically Indian water

01:05:07.438 --> 01:05:13.635
settlements. We want to look at dam
operations and river operations and oh

01:05:13.668 --> 01:05:19.115
by the way, we want you to come back
to work on the hill. We want and we

01:05:19.148 --> 01:05:23.865
want to place you in Congress. So
you're on staff so that you have direct

01:05:23.898 --> 01:05:30.747
access to all 435 members to help see
what we can do in this arena. And so

01:05:30.780 --> 01:05:36.376
we did and, and at that point, we also
had uh we were implementing the um

01:05:36.409 --> 01:05:39.436
Recovery Act. So there was a lot of
money that needed to go out into

01:05:39.469 --> 01:05:42.836
energy field and the water programs.
You know, we're trying to get America

01:05:42.869 --> 01:05:48.666
back on his feet again after the
debacle of the, of the recession. So that

01:05:48.699 --> 01:05:55.506
was on my agenda too. So I came back
and said, ok, George, um, you need to

01:05:55.539 --> 01:05:59.206
give me some help because I've not
worked on the hill. Ho I mean, I've

01:05:59.239 --> 01:06:02.566
been to the hill given a lot of
briefings, but I've not worked on the hill.

01:06:02.599 --> 01:06:06.356
He said, don't worry about it. I'm
gonna, I got you covered. So George

01:06:06.389 --> 01:06:11.307
was my person on the hill when I first
got there. And who are you working

01:06:11.340 --> 01:06:14.276
for? I was working actually for the
Committee and Natural Resources

01:06:14.309 --> 01:06:17.037
Committee. George's old committee. He
said, because that's where the

01:06:17.070 --> 01:06:19.945
bureau is. Yeah, the House House of
Representatives because that's where

01:06:19.978 --> 01:06:24.336
the Bureau is physically
administratively located under the Natural

01:06:24.369 --> 01:06:29.727
Resources Committee. At that point,
Nick Rahall had taken over George had

01:06:29.760 --> 01:06:33.186
moved over to education, but George
and Nick were and still are great

01:06:33.219 --> 01:06:37.945
friends. And so Nick convinced George
convinced Nick to hire me to come

01:06:37.978 --> 01:06:43.307
back and do this. So that's what I
did. Did you have a specific position

01:06:43.340 --> 01:06:45.425
where

01:06:45.458 --> 01:06:49.146
I was, I was staff director, staff
director for the, for the water and

01:06:49.179 --> 01:06:52.467
power subcomittee

01:06:52.500 --> 01:06:57.865
was specifically over the bureau and
the Western water settlements and the

01:06:57.898 --> 01:07:03.936
programs that are part of Western
water in particular. Um So out of that,

01:07:03.969 --> 01:07:08.606
I began working with all the members
who are interested in this area,

01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:15.166
continue the dialogue with the Academy
of sciences me the AAA S and

01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:19.807
starting to, to bring up our level of
knowledge on the house staff side

01:07:19.840 --> 01:07:24.936
because I, I hate to say this, but
there's very few staff in the House of

01:07:24.969 --> 01:07:30.356
Representatives that a know there's a
country west of the 100th meridian.

01:07:30.389 --> 01:07:34.236
They're just, most of them are east
coast policy. They come out of the,

01:07:34.269 --> 01:07:38.345
the schools that churn out policy.
People in the east or b know that

01:07:38.378 --> 01:07:42.146
western water is different than
Eastern water and that's managed

01:07:42.179 --> 01:07:45.195
differently. There's a whole different
set of water laws and that the

01:07:45.228 --> 01:07:49.736
native Americans, the Indian tribes
have a federal reserve water, right?

01:07:49.769 --> 01:07:53.436
And that we, we have an obligation
because we established a treaty with

01:07:53.469 --> 01:07:57.845
them. And if they're federally
recognized, we have to work with them to

01:07:57.878 --> 01:08:01.086
make sure they're taken care of. So
those were the big areas that I was

01:08:01.119 --> 01:08:06.227
asked to jump into right away by any
chance. Did you work on the White

01:08:06.260 --> 01:08:12.276
Mountain Nepal? And Kirkpatrick was um
congresswoman early on in that.

01:08:12.309 --> 01:08:17.506
Yeah. Yeah. And Salt River project and
others were all. And I, so I, yeah

01:08:17.539 --> 01:08:25.539
, I worked on a lot of these issues
over the years. So that came on. Um

01:08:25.759 --> 01:08:29.277
Then we had another re revolution of
sorts in the House and we lost the

01:08:29.310 --> 01:08:34.317
house and the Republicans took over.
At that point, I was asked to go over

01:08:34.350 --> 01:08:38.527
to the Transportation and
Infrastructure Committee so I could take what I

01:08:38.560 --> 01:08:44.046
was doing with natural resources and
apply to the Corps of Engineers EPA F

01:08:44.079 --> 01:08:48.405
MA, the other federal agencies. And
George again, asked, called up and

01:08:48.438 --> 01:08:52.217
said, I would really like you to go
over and Nick Ray Hall called up. So

01:08:52.250 --> 01:08:55.996
I'd really like you to come with me
because Nick had now migrated over to

01:08:56.029 --> 01:09:01.885
become the ranking member on TN I. And
because um the congressman from

01:09:01.918 --> 01:09:07.126
Minnesota had lost his race and T and
I transportation infrastructure. So

01:09:07.159 --> 01:09:11.336
it gave me this additional national
perspective. And so we started to

01:09:11.369 --> 01:09:17.036
bring the concept of adaptive
management into the Corps of Engineers. Epa

01:09:17.069 --> 01:09:20.885
and the other Saint Lawrence City and
all the various or Tennessee Valley

01:09:20.918 --> 01:09:26.737
Authority was under that
subcommittee's

01:09:26.770 --> 01:09:33.486
to work with. So as part of that, then
I got interested in again adaptive

01:09:33.519 --> 01:09:39.626
management. So I had this great group
of graduate students of sorts,

01:09:39.659 --> 01:09:43.305
although they're much more, they're
professional people at the, at the

01:09:43.338 --> 01:09:47.656
Library of Congress called the
Congressional Research Service. So lo and

01:09:47.689 --> 01:09:51.696
behold, I found out one day I could
just call them up and say I need you

01:09:51.729 --> 01:09:56.717
to do a report for me on this issue or
another issue or whatever. And I

01:09:56.750 --> 01:10:00.756
did. So I learned and they were
constantly coming into my office. They

01:10:00.789 --> 01:10:05.437
them and gao to because we had kept
asking them to do stuff for us. So out

01:10:05.470 --> 01:10:09.425
of that, I commissioned the
Congressional research Service to start doing

01:10:09.458 --> 01:10:12.937
reviews on adaptive management. Around
the world around the country. So it

01:10:12.970 --> 01:10:17.635
was like 2010, 2000. Well, this uh
this first report came out in October

01:10:17.668 --> 01:10:24.206
21st, 2010 adaptive management in
ecosystem res restoration initiatives.

01:10:24.239 --> 01:10:29.027
So, and Glen Canyon is one of the
programs that I had them review, but I

01:10:29.060 --> 01:10:33.857
also had them look at the Platte
River, Missouri River, um Everglades

01:10:33.890 --> 01:10:37.976
Lower Colorado Multi Species program,
a whole variety. And then I had them

01:10:38.009 --> 01:10:41.737
list the benefits and the
difficulties. Let's I wanted to really learn,

01:10:41.770 --> 01:10:46.706
get a kind of a lessons learned from
this. So um one of the nice things

01:10:46.739 --> 01:10:51.826
about being former staff is I can
still call up and have them do this, do

01:10:51.859 --> 01:10:55.635
these sorts of things as long as I
have a member, sign a letter. And so

01:10:55.668 --> 01:10:58.876
they're finishing up the second
version of this now where I've had them go

01:10:58.909 --> 01:11:04.015
back and explore again. Let's te cost,
let's cast a broader net over where

01:11:04.048 --> 01:11:07.897
adaptive management has been applied
because now you, you see it, do you

01:11:07.930 --> 01:11:12.256
see those two or two words in almost
every N A document now that has to do

01:11:12.289 --> 01:11:16.055
with water or environmental management
or you're even seeing it now

01:11:16.088 --> 01:11:21.156
populate into energy reports, et
cetera. So because the energy companies

01:11:21.189 --> 01:11:27.595
are getting into it. So what I find is
that I have members who I still

01:11:27.628 --> 01:11:33.456
consult with on a fairly regular basis
in Washington, who are smart people

01:11:33.489 --> 01:11:37.076
and I know you gotta get going smart
people in your own time, but in on

01:11:37.109 --> 01:11:41.437
their own. All right. But they don't
understand the concepts of how they,

01:11:41.470 --> 01:11:46.515
these things are applied. So I still
provide a service to members where

01:11:46.548 --> 01:11:50.067
I'll go in and explain things to him.
He'll call me up and say, I know

01:11:50.100 --> 01:11:52.956
when, when you're in Washington next,
can you come in and explain how this

01:11:52.989 --> 01:11:57.296
works in simple terms that I'll
understand and that's not a derogatory

01:11:57.329 --> 01:12:00.265
statement about our members of
Congress. This fact, they got so many

01:12:00.298 --> 01:12:05.925
things coming at them that to explain
to them the nuances of what we wrote

01:12:05.958 --> 01:12:11.256
in 92 and what, how it's played out
and what it now of how it affects what

01:12:11.289 --> 01:12:15.586
they are gonna be taking their little
plastic card and voting on at some

01:12:15.619 --> 01:12:20.635
point. That's my job still, once a
staff are always a staffer, you educate

01:12:20.668 --> 01:12:25.226
and continue to educate both them and
the and the staff over how these

01:12:25.259 --> 01:12:29.576
things are applied. And so this
concept of adaptive management is getting

01:12:29.609 --> 01:12:35.866
enough air time that it's now becoming
part of the discussion again. They

01:12:35.899 --> 01:12:40.737
don't understand it all the time, what
it means and what its implications

01:12:40.770 --> 01:12:46.237
are to a particular issue or project
or case. So helping to explain that

01:12:46.270 --> 01:12:53.746
for them is what I do. So and now I'm
helping students do it. So who are

01:12:53.779 --> 01:13:00.027
writing, writing on these issues? So
at which universities are you working

01:13:00.060 --> 01:13:03.265
with students, I work with students at
University of Washington,

01:13:03.298 --> 01:13:09.635
University of Minnesota, Colorado
State. Um you know, a variety of us, UC

01:13:09.668 --> 01:13:17.668
Berkeley. Um So I've had one at uh UC
Irvine. She just graduated. So, you

01:13:17.759 --> 01:13:22.616
know, in NAU occasionally. So it's
just around people are interested. Um

01:13:22.649 --> 01:13:26.576
There's the water resource center here
on campus, Sharon Megdal and her

01:13:26.609 --> 01:13:29.836
group, I lecture to them and I've
taken, she's asked me to take a couple

01:13:29.869 --> 01:13:35.946
of her students under my wing. So
educate them. So, you know, I, I have

01:13:35.979 --> 01:13:39.925
the luxury now being able to do that.
They can't fire me anymore, even

01:13:39.958 --> 01:13:43.376
though I did get fired three times on
the Glen Canyon studies and they

01:13:43.409 --> 01:13:47.265
kept bringing you back. Somebody kept,
I had a guardian angel of sorts,

01:13:47.298 --> 01:13:51.046
several of them over the years who
kept saying you can't do that. You know

01:13:51.079 --> 01:13:54.845
, I have members of uh various
administrations who would come on river

01:13:54.878 --> 01:13:59.067
trips and perhaps consume a little bit
and decide they were Jesus Christ

01:13:59.100 --> 01:14:02.786
and decide to walk across the river
and go in and rescue them and they

01:14:02.819 --> 01:14:06.817
didn't like being rescued. It hurt
their self image. So I was fired for

01:14:06.850 --> 01:14:12.845
that one. So, um you know, we goes the
territory took it personal for a

01:14:12.878 --> 01:14:17.086
while, but not anymore. When you're
retired, you can afford to be

01:14:17.119 --> 01:14:20.805
magnanimous more so than when you're
working for a paycheck for. Well,

01:14:20.838 --> 01:14:24.527
yeah, though one of the reasons uh
they had a little bit of initial push

01:14:24.560 --> 01:14:28.126
back with you, Paul, is that as of
three weeks ago, there was somebody in

01:14:28.159 --> 01:14:31.446
the regional office in Salt Lake who
complained about the adaptive

01:14:31.479 --> 01:14:35.385
management and the fact that I had
gotten it started at Glen Canyon

01:14:35.418 --> 01:14:41.446
because it was costing the bureau so
much money. The he, you know, so

01:14:41.479 --> 01:14:45.256
there's still, even after all these
years, people who don't particularly

01:14:45.289 --> 01:14:49.765
like what we've done, but I would, I
would change a thing. Well, maybe a

01:14:49.798 --> 01:14:54.726
few things. Let's take a brief break.
We can, uh, grab something to drink

01:14:54.759 --> 01:14:58.416
a little bit of water. I'm gonna ask
at the front desk if we can extend

01:14:58.449 --> 01:15:03.496
our time here in the room, we'll start
again. Five minutes. Sure. But I

01:15:03.529 --> 01:15:07.296
know it's Friday and you guys probably
wanna get back to him. So I'm gonna

01:15:07.329 --> 01:15:12.720
stop and we will restart with another
file when we continue.