WEBVTT 00:00:02.258 --> 00:00:04.258 This is Paul her at Arizona State University interviewing Ann Castle on 00:00:09.210 --> 00:00:16.247 March 26th of 2018 at Arizona State University. For the interview is for 00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:21.015 the Glen Canyon Dam Adaptive Management Program. And thank you so much for 00:00:21.048 --> 00:00:25.175 joining us today and doing this interview. Thanks for having me. Um Could 00:00:25.208 --> 00:00:29.116 you please start by telling us your name and the positions that you held 00:00:29.149 --> 00:00:32.036 in the Adaptive Management Program and the years in which you participate 00:00:32.069 --> 00:00:39.835 ? Sure. My name is Anne Castle and I was the secretary's designee and the 00:00:39.868 --> 00:00:45.186 chair of the Glen Canyon Dam Adaptive Management work group for the, the 00:00:45.219 --> 00:00:49.765 whole time that I was employed at the Department of the Interior, which 00:00:49.798 --> 00:00:57.646 was from the middle of 2009 through the end of 2014. 00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:03.385 Great. And um we've divided up the Adaptive Management Program into three 00:01:03.418 --> 00:01:08.087 main categories, scientific research, policy, and management and then uh 00:01:08.120 --> 00:01:12.546 social engagement and institutional engagement. Would you say you were 00:01:12.579 --> 00:01:17.197 involved in all of them or some of them? W which categories did you spend 00:01:17.230 --> 00:01:21.876 most of your time working in? Well, I would say I was involved in all of 00:01:21.909 --> 00:01:28.507 them. Um and I'm not sure that I could identify one that I spent more time 00:01:28.540 --> 00:01:34.316 in than the others. And we were certainly um involved in the scientific 00:01:34.349 --> 00:01:42.349 processes that were um uh going on in conjunction with the AM wigs work 00:01:42.948 --> 00:01:48.855 through the Grand Canyon Monitoring and Research Center, GCMRC. Um that 00:01:48.888 --> 00:01:55.665 was a center of the US Geological Survey and I as part of my um position 00:01:55.698 --> 00:02:01.420 at Interior, I oversaw the US GS. And so, the Grand Canyon Monitoring and 00:02:01.453 --> 00:02:06.340 Research Center was part of my portfolio in that sense. But, but that 00:02:06.373 --> 00:02:11.629 scientific group worked very, very closely with the MWE to provide 00:02:11.662 --> 00:02:18.170 scientific data and analysis that could then shape the operations of Glen 00:02:18.203 --> 00:02:24.781 Canyon Dam to uh preserve or improve the environment downstream in the 00:02:24.814 --> 00:02:28.852 Grand Canyon. So there was the scientific component. The cultural 00:02:28.885 --> 00:02:34.661 component was also very significant, particularly in connection with the 00:02:34.694 --> 00:02:41.916 participation of the Indian tribes in the Am Wag. And um the, the tribal 00:02:41.949 --> 00:02:47.316 members of the AM wig were expressing the positions and concerns of their 00:02:47.349 --> 00:02:51.717 tribal communities with the operations of Glen Canyon Dam and, and the 00:02:51.750 --> 00:02:58.677 effect um that those operations were having downstream and things like um 00:02:58.710 --> 00:03:04.356 uh archaeological sites that were being exposed to by wind erosion and, 00:03:04.389 --> 00:03:12.389 and how to deal with those. Um I the um uh treatment of non native fish in 00:03:15.278 --> 00:03:20.457 particularly in the upper part of the Grand Canyon and in Glen Canyon 00:03:20.490 --> 00:03:27.725 itself. Uh and the impact of all of the operations on endangered fish 00:03:27.758 --> 00:03:33.467 species. Those were all um significant concerns of the tribes and, and we 00:03:33.500 --> 00:03:41.396 were constantly working to figure out how to accommodate the desires of 00:03:41.429 --> 00:03:46.916 the tribes and, and at the same time, fulfill all the other missions and 00:03:46.949 --> 00:03:52.566 responsibilities of the federal agencies um in connection with the 00:03:52.599 --> 00:04:00.055 operations of the dam. So that's scientific and cultural. And then um yeah 00:04:00.088 --> 00:04:08.088 , the policy around water balance and water um responsibilities 00:04:08.419 --> 00:04:16.419 um was maybe the, the driving force uh because that uh the, the water 00:04:20.149 --> 00:04:27.226 obligations of the upper basin of the Colorado River to the lower basin is 00:04:27.259 --> 00:04:32.346 the biggest factor in determining how Glen Canyon Dam operates. And so 00:04:32.379 --> 00:04:37.106 fulfilling those responsibilities while taking into account um the 00:04:37.139 --> 00:04:41.937 concerns of all the various stakeholders um was really what the adaptive 00:04:41.970 --> 00:04:45.166 management program was all about. 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:49.426 Yeah, let me drill down a little bit more on your duties as the Secretary 00:04:49.459 --> 00:04:53.476 of Interior Designee. That it occurs to me that the Secretary of the 00:04:53.509 --> 00:04:59.575 Interior stands over all of the federal agencies. So many of them that are 00:04:59.608 --> 00:05:02.805 , you know, involved in this project, the Bureau of Reclamation which 00:05:02.838 --> 00:05:06.166 manages Grand Canyon Dam, the National Park Service for the Grand Canyon 00:05:06.199 --> 00:05:10.187 National Park, you know, is right below the dam. We've got the US Fish and 00:05:10.220 --> 00:05:15.116 Wildlife Service, we have the bi A and tribal relations. All of those in a 00:05:15.149 --> 00:05:19.205 sense you weren't representing any one of them, you sort of had to manage 00:05:19.238 --> 00:05:24.055 , you know, the relationships between all of them as the person 00:05:24.088 --> 00:05:27.526 representing the Department of Interior. Can you talk a little bit about 00:05:27.559 --> 00:05:34.317 your role at, at that level? Absolutely. And, and that was a significant 00:05:34.350 --> 00:05:40.197 issue during the time, um, that I was at interior and, and was the 00:05:40.230 --> 00:05:48.230 secretary's designee on the AM wig. Um, when I first came to interior, um 00:05:48.869 --> 00:05:55.906 , there was a number one lawsuit among the various AMW members. The Grand 00:05:55.939 --> 00:05:59.926 Canyon Trust was suing the Bureau of Reclamation and the US Fish and 00:05:59.959 --> 00:06:04.967 Wildlife Service over the operation of Glen Canyon Dam. So we had 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:11.106 litigation within the AM wig and the federal agencies were not on the same 00:06:11.139 --> 00:06:19.139 page. Um And I started an interior in July of 2009. And um the first MWC 00:06:21.470 --> 00:06:27.745 meeting that I chaired was in August of 2009. So I had a lot to learn, um 00:06:27.778 --> 00:06:35.778 during that month. Um But previously during 2009, um the uh there had been 00:06:40.048 --> 00:06:48.048 significant discord between the National Park Service and uh several of 00:06:48.100 --> 00:06:54.736 the other interior agencies connected with decisions within the AM wagon, 00:06:54.769 --> 00:07:00.426 the operation of Glen Canyon Dam. Um And 00:07:00.459 --> 00:07:05.325 um there's a lot of history there. Uh The Assistant Secretary for Water 00:07:05.358 --> 00:07:11.055 and Science, my position oversees the bureau of reclamation in the US GS. 00:07:11.088 --> 00:07:14.317 There's another assistant secretary that oversees the Fish and Wildlife 00:07:14.350 --> 00:07:17.916 Service and the National Park Service. The two other major federal 00:07:17.949 --> 00:07:24.526 agencies that were involved in the AM wag. There was even concern when I 00:07:24.559 --> 00:07:32.007 first started within the federal agencies that it was assumed that the 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:36.366 Assistant Secretary for Water and Science would chair the MW A and not the 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:40.887 Assistant Secretary for Fish, Wildlife and Parks. And there was that level 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:48.920 of distrust, um, and controversy among those agencies. So, uh, 00:07:51.449 --> 00:07:56.786 I mean, it, when new people, when administrations change and new people 00:07:56.819 --> 00:08:02.726 come in, um, they have the disadvantage of not having the history. But I 00:08:02.759 --> 00:08:07.967 think in that particular case, it was an advantage for me because I didn't 00:08:08.000 --> 00:08:14.406 have any history with the Park service good or bad. Um, and so it, they, 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:19.836 they couldn't assume that I was going to, um, act in ways that were 00:08:19.869 --> 00:08:25.467 detrimental to their interests. Um, and I certainly tried not to do that. 00:08:25.500 --> 00:08:33.500 Um, we tried to coordinate the, um, positions of the, um, the five 00:08:36.769 --> 00:08:43.956 different interior agencies that, that were involved in the AM wig, um, 00:08:43.989 --> 00:08:51.706 and started having preme meetings among just the federal agencies to talk 00:08:51.739 --> 00:08:57.544 through the agenda and figure out what everybody was thinking and what the 00:08:57.577 --> 00:09:02.466 different agencies were worried about or wanting to promote, uh, and 00:09:02.499 --> 00:09:09.946 coordinating our position. Um, because previously the, uh, federal 00:09:09.979 --> 00:09:12.057 agencies, 00:09:12.090 --> 00:09:17.566 there are five of them involved. One of those is US GS, um, the other four 00:09:17.599 --> 00:09:22.657 have, um, are designated members of the AM wig. So Fish and Wildlife 00:09:22.690 --> 00:09:27.366 Service, National Park Service Bureau of Indian affairs and reclamation 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:32.525 are all members and we're all voting members of the, am we at the time 00:09:32.558 --> 00:09:40.558 that I started? And, uh, they would sometimes vote uh, differently which I 00:09:43.558 --> 00:09:51.246 felt was inappropriate. Um And I wanted to ensure that the federal 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:58.686 agencies spoke with one voice on the AM w that, that we had, um, discussed 00:09:58.719 --> 00:10:03.417 and understood the positions of the various different agencies and figured 00:10:03.450 --> 00:10:08.407 out a way that we could move forward in a coordinate manner. Um Because it 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:14.936 was also true that uh because the federal agencies were following 00:10:14.969 --> 00:10:21.025 different paths, some of the AM W members, the other nonfederal members 00:10:21.058 --> 00:10:27.297 were exploiting those differences and, you know, encouraging discord um in 00:10:27.330 --> 00:10:30.177 order to 00:10:30.210 --> 00:10:36.177 uh impede progress. Now, I know you may be reluctant to talk more 00:10:36.210 --> 00:10:39.895 specifically about this. But I think um for the administrative history, it 00:10:39.928 --> 00:10:45.025 would be helpful for uh future listeners to put a little bit of meat on 00:10:45.058 --> 00:10:48.596 those bones in the sense that um you're talking about an important 00:10:48.629 --> 00:10:54.246 procedural means for gaining some policy coherency among the federal 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:59.356 agencies. Could you talk at least in some detail about what issues you 00:10:59.389 --> 00:11:04.505 were most deeply involved in that required this extra effort at 00:11:04.538 --> 00:11:09.066 coordinating positions and policies? Yeah. Well, there were, there were a 00:11:09.099 --> 00:11:13.537 number of different examples. Um 00:11:13.570 --> 00:11:21.275 It's I think of public record that in 2008, um there was a high flow 00:11:21.308 --> 00:11:29.308 release from Glen Canyon Dam um on uh an experiment to hopefully um stir 00:11:30.849 --> 00:11:36.927 up sediment from the bed of the river and with high flows deposit that 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:42.311 sediment um higher than it otherwise would have gone on the banks of the 00:11:42.344 --> 00:11:46.400 river to replenish some of the sand bars that previously existed that had 00:11:46.433 --> 00:11:53.851 been eroded away by um just sort of normal operations of both the dam and 00:11:53.884 --> 00:12:00.292 and just normal function of the river. Um Several high flow experiments 00:12:00.325 --> 00:12:05.571 had been done before that, but there was one done in late 2008. So just 00:12:05.604 --> 00:12:09.967 before the change of administration, the Secretary of the Interior at the 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:18.000 time, Dirk Kempthorne came to that a high flow release and um uh was um 00:12:20.519 --> 00:12:24.206 espousing the position of the Department of the Interior, that this was 00:12:24.239 --> 00:12:30.696 something that was being done to further the science to um improve the 00:12:30.729 --> 00:12:38.729 ecosystem, to replenish camping beaches, to improve recreation. Um And he 00:12:39.038 --> 00:12:43.366 was giving a press conference to that effect and as I understand it, I 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:51.399 wasn't there, but I've been told that about um 100 or 200 ft away, the 00:12:51.500 --> 00:12:54.797 superintendent of Grand Canyon National Park was also giving a press 00:12:54.830 --> 00:13:02.186 conference undermining the value of the high flow experiment. Um And so 00:13:02.219 --> 00:13:06.196 that was at a time when this litigation was ongoing, the Grand Canyon 00:13:06.229 --> 00:13:12.566 Trust suing the other two federal agencies, the National Park Service was 00:13:12.599 --> 00:13:19.076 I should stop there. Uh Grand Canyon National Park was supporting the 00:13:19.109 --> 00:13:23.917 litigation of Grand Canyon Trust against the other federal agencies, there 00:13:23.950 --> 00:13:31.395 was significant discord. Um So that was, that was one of the issues that 00:13:31.428 --> 00:13:39.428 we had to deal with others were um less uh high profile. But things like 00:13:42.129 --> 00:13:50.129 um US GS, the Grand Canyon Monitoring and Research Center arm of us GS was 00:13:50.168 --> 00:13:58.168 trying to do science in the canyon um around the impact of uh flows on 00:13:59.298 --> 00:14:04.645 vegetation. So they were looking at vegetation within the range of 00:14:04.678 --> 00:14:09.547 fluctuation of the releases from Grand Canyon Dam and comparing that 00:14:09.580 --> 00:14:14.956 vegetation to um vegetation that is unaffected by operations and, and 00:14:14.989 --> 00:14:19.307 seeing what they could learn about the impact of dam operations on 00:14:19.340 --> 00:14:24.255 vegetation. Well, in order to do scientific research in the park, you have 00:14:24.288 --> 00:14:28.446 to get a park service permit and the park service was denying those 00:14:28.479 --> 00:14:36.479 permits to us GS. Um because they were concerned about um part of the park 00:14:37.750 --> 00:14:45.750 is a wilderness area and they were worried that the impact of the, the 00:14:46.149 --> 00:14:52.486 scientific cruise uh was inconsistent with wilderness values. That was one 00:14:52.519 --> 00:15:00.519 of the concerns. There were studies that were um approved by the AM wig. 00:15:01.450 --> 00:15:08.826 Um Things like uh one I recall was called the near Shore Ecology Study. 00:15:08.859 --> 00:15:14.667 That was a scientific study over I believe, a three year period where they 00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:22.700 were looking at um what fish were present and breeding in um various 00:15:24.460 --> 00:15:30.826 locations up and down the river, including backwaters and um back channels 00:15:30.859 --> 00:15:36.326 and tributaries. And so trying to get a handle on where the endangered 00:15:36.359 --> 00:15:42.500 fish species are living and breeding. Um where the trout are, uh just to 00:15:42.533 --> 00:15:48.871 get a better feel for how these different fish communities are living in 00:15:48.904 --> 00:15:53.741 the canyon. And, and of course, the ultimate goal was to figure out how 00:15:53.774 --> 00:15:57.682 they're impacted by operations of the dam and might be benefited by 00:15:57.715 --> 00:16:02.552 different types of operations. So, um the near shore ecology study 00:16:02.585 --> 00:16:10.585 involved uh electro fishing at night. What that means is uh you have boats 00:16:12.239 --> 00:16:20.239 in the river with great big um lamps shining bright light into the river 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:27.866 and attracting the fish and they put a big ball um metal ball that 00:16:27.899 --> 00:16:31.976 conducts electricity into the water and shock the water and that brings 00:16:32.009 --> 00:16:37.096 the fish to the surface. You scoop them up. Yeah. Um some were dissected, 00:16:37.129 --> 00:16:42.775 some were just examined and tagged and put back into the river. Well, you 00:16:42.808 --> 00:16:46.836 got boats roaring around at night with bright lights and a whole bunch of 00:16:46.869 --> 00:16:53.706 scientists doing stuff in a wilderness area. Um And usually in the park 00:16:53.739 --> 00:16:58.255 services non motor season because they Grand Canyon National Park has a 00:16:58.288 --> 00:17:01.996 season for motor boats and they have a season when no motor boats are 00:17:02.029 --> 00:17:06.746 allowed. So that whole scientific operation gave the park service a lot of 00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:12.406 heartburn and uh they had to permit it. Um And so there was tension 00:17:12.439 --> 00:17:17.137 between the AM wig and Grand Canyon National Park between us GS and the 00:17:17.170 --> 00:17:23.026 park um over those kinds of things. That were, um everybody's trying to do 00:17:23.059 --> 00:17:26.535 their mission, you know, and they have different missions there, different 00:17:26.568 --> 00:17:32.406 agencies have different responsibilities and um it was a source of 00:17:32.439 --> 00:17:40.439 controversy uh that could be allowed to fester um and uh be exploited or 00:17:42.049 --> 00:17:48.766 uh what we tried to do was to um get the people in a room together and 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:56.799 figure it out and put limits on the scope of the activities that were of 00:17:57.059 --> 00:18:03.565 concern. Um, and to allow the science to take place. But in a way that was 00:18:03.598 --> 00:18:07.647 minimally disruptive to the values of the park were the tribal 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:12.617 representatives involved in that conversation at all because I know some 00:18:12.650 --> 00:18:17.607 of them have expressed misgivings about these kinds of, you know, shocking 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:25.097 programs, right? And the, the um, involvement of the tribal 00:18:25.130 --> 00:18:30.736 representatives and in the communities that they represented was mostly 00:18:30.769 --> 00:18:32.936 around 00:18:32.969 --> 00:18:40.969 the control of non native fish. Um, not so much. At least I don't remember 00:18:41.029 --> 00:18:47.387 that it was around these, um, scientific investigations, but because of 00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:54.555 the cold water releases from Glen Canyon Dam, a wonderful world class gold 00:18:54.588 --> 00:18:58.825 medal, blue ribbon, whatever you want to call it. Trout fishery has, um, 00:18:58.858 --> 00:19:04.986 grown up, uh, in the reach of the river just below the dam and, um, 00:19:05.019 --> 00:19:08.815 Arizona game and fish stocked it with trout for years and years and years 00:19:08.848 --> 00:19:16.848 , maybe they still do. Um, but turns out trout eat humpback chub. Um, and 00:19:18.269 --> 00:19:22.305 all the federal agencies are obligated to avoid jeopardy. To endangered 00:19:22.338 --> 00:19:27.756 species. And the Humpback chub is an endangered species in the Colorado 00:19:27.789 --> 00:19:35.789 River. And so the scientific evidence and recommendation at the time that 00:19:37.400 --> 00:19:45.400 I started with the MW was uh to control non native fish, which means kill 00:19:46.699 --> 00:19:54.699 trout. And, um, you know, it, it sounds to an outsider, it sounds um kind 00:19:56.108 --> 00:20:00.565 of barbaric, but as I understand it, game and fish departments all over 00:20:00.598 --> 00:20:04.976 the country have been using these same kinds of methods for fish control 00:20:05.009 --> 00:20:12.535 for centuries, not that long decades. Um And what they do is they 00:20:12.568 --> 00:20:16.617 electroshock the fish and in this case, they're not tagging them and 00:20:16.650 --> 00:20:22.097 throwing them back, they're killing. Um And the object is to reduce 00:20:22.130 --> 00:20:26.956 numbers and that was being done in the Grand Canyon to reduce trout 00:20:26.989 --> 00:20:33.377 numbers in an effort to give the Humpback chub babies, especially, uh, a 00:20:33.410 --> 00:20:39.347 better chance. I think there was any, um, uh, results from that research 00:20:39.380 --> 00:20:42.967 during the time that you were involved in hew. Did you get results that 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:48.065 led to actual decision making about, uh, releases or other forms of 00:20:48.098 --> 00:20:54.137 management? Yeah, that was starting to happen toward the end of my time at 00:20:54.170 --> 00:21:00.305 the interior department. And it was so interesting because for me, it was 00:21:00.338 --> 00:21:05.186 such a lesson in um, 00:21:05.219 --> 00:21:07.436 uh 00:21:07.469 --> 00:21:14.026 traditional ecological knowledge of by the tribes. And it's kind of a long 00:21:14.059 --> 00:21:19.696 story. But, um, but I'll tell you how I learned what I learned and how I 00:21:19.729 --> 00:21:27.729 learned it. Um So the scientific consensus. Um, at the time that I started 00:21:28.170 --> 00:21:36.075 was trout eat chub. We got non native trout. We're trying to preserve the 00:21:36.108 --> 00:21:42.696 native endangered species. We need to get the trout numbers down. Um And 00:21:42.729 --> 00:21:50.729 so the bureau of reclamation being the operational agency, they were, um, 00:21:51.750 --> 00:21:59.075 carrying out non native fish control, meaning that they would, um, either 00:21:59.108 --> 00:22:06.276 they'd usually hire, um, Arizona game and fish or, or some fish agency to 00:22:06.309 --> 00:22:14.186 go out and electroshock the fish, um, the tribes, most particularly the 00:22:14.219 --> 00:22:22.219 Pueblo of Zuni objected to that um, procedure because to them, the entire 00:22:22.358 --> 00:22:29.107 Grand Canyon is a sacred place and to the Zuni, um, the confluence of the 00:22:29.140 --> 00:22:34.006 Colorado river and the little Colorado river is their place of emerging 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:40.726 from the, um, from the underworld. And it's, it's a particularly sacred 00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:45.387 place. Well, that's where the Humpback C bar in the little Colorado River. 00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:53.420 And that's where the most um concentration of trout control was being 00:22:53.479 --> 00:23:01.416 employed. So the Pueblo of Zuni objected um forcefully to that practice 00:23:01.449 --> 00:23:09.449 because, uh, the taking of life in a sacred place is anathema and, and the 00:23:10.779 --> 00:23:18.597 fish control was taking the life of the trout. And it's, it was, um, at 00:23:18.630 --> 00:23:23.867 the time, I thought it was like a perfect law school exam. Um, because the 00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:29.847 federal agencies are bound by law to avoid jeopardy to endangered species 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:36.575 , the scientific consensus is in order to fulfill that responsibility, you 00:23:36.608 --> 00:23:40.906 must control the trout numbers and here's how you do it. The fish and 00:23:40.939 --> 00:23:44.867 Wildlife Service was saying that they're the protectors of endangered 00:23:44.900 --> 00:23:50.446 species. And they were saying you got to control the trout and the tribes 00:23:50.479 --> 00:23:55.887 to whom all of those agencies owe a trust obligation. They were saying you 00:23:55.920 --> 00:24:01.986 can't do that in our sacred cultural space. And so it was, it was a very 00:24:02.019 --> 00:24:09.266 difficult dilemma. I went to the Pueblo of Zuni and met with the tribal 00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:17.299 council and the tribal elders to, um, to try to see what we could do. Um, 00:24:17.549 --> 00:24:21.815 it was not a particularly productive meeting. Um, they were pretty mad at 00:24:21.848 --> 00:24:25.276 me. Um, 00:24:25.309 --> 00:24:32.186 I think they were glad I came. But, um, but we didn't reach any sort of 00:24:32.219 --> 00:24:38.526 solution or even a consensus on a path forward. But one of the things they 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:46.559 said to me was one of the, the tribal religious elders said, 00:24:47.150 --> 00:24:55.150 you're saying trail each up will chub eat chub. These fish have existed 00:24:57.049 --> 00:25:05.049 together for decades. Why do you have to interfere? Big fish eat little 00:25:05.900 --> 00:25:11.637 fish? That's just the way things happen. Um, 00:25:11.670 --> 00:25:18.696 at the time, my scientific, um, buddies were saying, well, yeah, but, um, 00:25:18.729 --> 00:25:25.206 trout eat chub in greater numbers than chubby chub. Um And so you gotta 00:25:25.239 --> 00:25:27.926 control the trout. 00:25:27.959 --> 00:25:35.959 As, as my time with the AM wig went on, the scientific consensus started 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:45.436 to turn and toward the end, the scientists at the Grand Canyon Monitoring 00:25:45.469 --> 00:25:48.877 and Research Center were saying, 00:25:48.910 --> 00:25:56.910 trout chug big fish big fish eat little fish. But we don't know if the 00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:04.276 predation of trout on chub has an effect at the population level. So we 00:26:04.309 --> 00:26:08.367 know there's this interaction, but we don't know if it has a population 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:11.315 effect and that's what we're interested in as the population effect. And 00:26:11.348 --> 00:26:18.166 at the time, I thought that's what the elders were saying. And, and yet 00:26:18.199 --> 00:26:23.347 the scientific community had a very hard time, 00:26:23.380 --> 00:26:31.016 um, figuring out a way to formally incorporate tribal ecological knowledge 00:26:31.049 --> 00:26:39.049 into their regimen. Um And I think that's still a source of um discomfort 00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:47.585 in the scientific community. So, anyhow, um that was, that was a big deal 00:26:47.618 --> 00:26:52.706 while I was at interior. One of the things that we did during that time 00:26:52.739 --> 00:26:57.627 was we did an environmental assessment on non native fish control and the 00:26:57.660 --> 00:27:04.026 tribes were very much involved in that. They didn't like the first result 00:27:04.059 --> 00:27:10.347 that the federal agencies um came up with, we had some sort of facilitated 00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:17.706 process to, to try to get everybody's um opinions on the table and, and to 00:27:17.739 --> 00:27:21.147 get them to work together to come up with a solution that they could, 00:27:21.180 --> 00:27:26.867 everybody could live with. And at the end of the day, we finally came up 00:27:26.900 --> 00:27:34.900 with something that, that seemed to work while that process was ongoing. 00:27:35.368 --> 00:27:39.397 The scientific community hadn't yet changed its mind and they were still 00:27:39.430 --> 00:27:45.467 saying we think we need to electroshock the trout. Um But there were 00:27:45.500 --> 00:27:49.825 things that were agreed to like, 00:27:49.858 --> 00:27:55.176 um, we'll try to avoid it. We really try to avoid doing it at the 00:27:55.209 --> 00:28:00.686 confluence of the Colorado and the Little Colorado. If we have to do it, 00:28:00.719 --> 00:28:05.565 we're gonna talk to you about what we do with those fish. We'll try, we'll 00:28:05.598 --> 00:28:10.256 , we'll investigate live removal, which means you scoop them up and you 00:28:10.289 --> 00:28:15.055 helicopter them out, which is really expensive, but they rear reclamation 00:28:15.088 --> 00:28:21.506 said we'll investigate that. Um, And if, if that is just not feasible, 00:28:21.539 --> 00:28:25.387 we're gonna work with you to figure out how we can deal with the dead fish 00:28:25.420 --> 00:28:31.575 in a way that honors them, for example, use it for fertilizer on, um, 00:28:31.608 --> 00:28:38.406 tribal agricultural lands or some, something like that. Um, so that was 00:28:38.439 --> 00:28:45.026 all in the environmental assessment. Uh And, and that was ultimately, um, 00:28:45.059 --> 00:28:51.766 something that, that seemed to work for most of the parties involved, but 00:28:51.799 --> 00:28:57.585 they've never done another electroshock since that, as far as I know, 00:28:57.618 --> 00:29:02.295 since that environmental assessment process started and the science was 00:29:02.328 --> 00:29:07.426 evolving. What year did that start? Do you remember? 00:29:07.459 --> 00:29:13.236 Um, I'm gonna say 2011, 00:29:13.269 --> 00:29:18.016 but I may not have that right. It's a plus or minus a year. And did they 00:29:18.049 --> 00:29:25.335 ever, um, do the studies to show whether the trout predation on the chub 00:29:25.368 --> 00:29:31.666 had an effect on the chub populations? Well, they were trying to do those 00:29:31.699 --> 00:29:36.967 studies. Um, yeah, and, and I think they were g leaning from the studies 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:44.117 that had already been done that, that might be the case. Um So I, I don't 00:29:44.150 --> 00:29:52.150 know if they've done further work on that. Um But uh I just remember that 00:29:54.318 --> 00:30:02.318 the chief of GCMRC at the time, John Hammill saying to me, 00:30:02.328 --> 00:30:07.416 we're not sure anymore that this predation hasn't affected the population 00:30:07.449 --> 00:30:15.449 level and it may not. So given that and given the position of the tribes, 00:30:16.209 --> 00:30:22.717 I don't know why you do it. That's a great story and very illustrative of 00:30:22.750 --> 00:30:27.647 the core of the Adaptive Management Program is collaboration. And that's 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:33.006 just a wonderful example of an effort to collaborate on a difficult topic 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:38.726 in which people start out in conflict with each other and come closer to 00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:43.276 an understanding what people can move forward, everybody can move forward 00:30:43.309 --> 00:30:48.656 in the sense that their concerns were heard and that decisions were 00:30:48.689 --> 00:30:53.256 modified to try to have the best possible. Yeah, it was a real lesson 00:30:53.289 --> 00:31:00.526 learned for me. Um First of all about how scientists can be absolutely 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:04.016 sure of something and then change their minds. And so, you know, a healthy 00:31:04.049 --> 00:31:10.946 skepticism will serve you well. Um And, and secondly, 00:31:10.979 --> 00:31:15.736 such a real world example of traditional ecological knowledge that I mean 00:31:15.769 --> 00:31:22.176 , people sort of agree with that concept in principle, but I saw it acted 00:31:22.209 --> 00:31:30.209 out and it was, it's something that um has really informed the way I think 00:31:30.529 --> 00:31:38.529 about um tribal involvement in those kinds of what we think of from our 00:31:40.250 --> 00:31:48.250 sort of Western scientific point of view as scientifically determined. 00:31:49.250 --> 00:31:55.206 Can I ask you? Um I, I wanna dig a little deeper both on your experiences 00:31:55.239 --> 00:32:00.315 incorporating the tribes but also your experiences. As so you were head of 00:32:00.348 --> 00:32:06.887 water and science and the US Geological Survey is kind of the center for 00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:12.186 collecting the research that supports the program. And you were, you know 00:32:12.219 --> 00:32:17.686 , a, a representative of one step above them and over them. Can you talk a 00:32:17.719 --> 00:32:23.347 little bit about what kinds of science were being prioritized when you 00:32:23.380 --> 00:32:30.756 came in and whether the kinds of research that was being done evolved or 00:32:30.789 --> 00:32:36.055 changed over the time that you were there? 00:32:36.088 --> 00:32:39.055 Um 00:32:39.088 --> 00:32:43.857 Well, I can, I can talk a little bit about it. I'm not sure I can answer 00:32:43.890 --> 00:32:50.535 the question about um an evolution of the science over the time that I was 00:32:50.568 --> 00:32:58.568 there. Um The um the way the AM wake functioned um when I came in was 00:33:00.439 --> 00:33:08.439 every year, the staff of the AM wig together with Grand Canyon Monitoring 00:33:08.539 --> 00:33:14.686 and Research Center would come up with a budget and work plan and the 00:33:14.719 --> 00:33:21.877 budget for the AM wig comes from two sources from uh the Bureau of 00:33:21.910 --> 00:33:29.910 reclamation money um for upper Colorado River operations. Um But they also 00:33:31.459 --> 00:33:38.565 get revenues from the power generated by Glen Canyon Dam that goes into 00:33:38.598 --> 00:33:45.627 the Upper Colorado River Basin Fund. And um there's a, a fixed pot of 00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:50.026 money that comes out of the basin fund every year that that funds most of 00:33:50.059 --> 00:33:58.059 the science through GCMRC. And uh that's, that was about $10 million a 00:33:59.818 --> 00:34:07.506 year. So it's a well funded program with very uh steady and reliable 00:34:07.539 --> 00:34:11.467 funding. So it's not subject to the ups and downs of appropriation, that 00:34:11.500 --> 00:34:18.365 money just comes out of the basin fund. Um So the budget and work plan 00:34:18.398 --> 00:34:24.104 would rely on the funding from reclamation, which was a smaller number and 00:34:24.137 --> 00:34:30.486 the funding from the basin fund and they needed to fund the, the staff 00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:35.365 involved in the operations of the my. But that's a very small number, 00:34:35.398 --> 00:34:39.936 mostly what they were funding was the science. And so they needed to 00:34:39.969 --> 00:34:47.135 figure out $10 million worth of science every year. Um And you can fund a 00:34:47.168 --> 00:34:50.945 lot of science with $10 million a year, especially if you know that it's 00:34:50.978 --> 00:34:55.635 going to be there year after year after year. Um 00:34:55.668 --> 00:35:00.006 So the things they were working on when I came in were like this near 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:06.456 shore ecology study. They were surveying the sandbars because the, the 00:35:06.489 --> 00:35:11.816 loss of sandbars from erosion was a big concern, particularly of the park 00:35:11.849 --> 00:35:16.675 service because the sandbars are where people who float the river camp at 00:35:16.708 --> 00:35:21.526 night. And if there aren't any sandbars anymore, the whole river 00:35:21.559 --> 00:35:28.396 recreation um is impacted. Um And, and not only were the sandbars being 00:35:28.429 --> 00:35:33.486 eroded, they were being more overtaken by vegetation because the Grand 00:35:33.519 --> 00:35:37.615 Canyon was not getting the same kind of flood flows that it used to 00:35:37.648 --> 00:35:42.787 receive before the dam was built. And so the vegetation, whereas it used 00:35:42.820 --> 00:35:47.126 to be scoured by the spring floods, it was now encroaching farther and 00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:53.595 farther down into the um, into the banks. Um So they were, they were 00:35:53.628 --> 00:36:00.956 surveying the sand bars. Um And there are just a million different studies 00:36:00.989 --> 00:36:08.989 going on. I mean, I bet at any given time there were 00:36:09.750 --> 00:36:16.115 30 line items, budget items of different studies through Grand Canyon 00:36:16.148 --> 00:36:20.936 Monitoring and Research Center. Um So all of that had to be figured out 00:36:20.969 --> 00:36:25.905 every year and, you know, the MW only meets twice a year. And so one of 00:36:25.938 --> 00:36:29.006 the meetings would be, here's what we're going to propose for the budget 00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:32.486 and work plan and the other one was ok. Now, vote on it and, and that 00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:39.365 would take up a lot of time. Um So, yeah. Right. Right. And the twig, the 00:36:39.398 --> 00:36:43.445 technical work group would be involved. But um there was also a budget, a 00:36:43.478 --> 00:36:49.086 ho group but it was still way too much. So, um part of what we did while I 00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:55.030 was there was um to change that to a biennial process, an annual process 00:36:55.063 --> 00:37:00.081 and then ultimately to a triennial process so that you only had to think 00:37:00.114 --> 00:37:04.342 about it once every three years and there were opportunities to change 00:37:04.375 --> 00:37:09.030 course in midstream if something wasn't going well or, or something new 00:37:09.063 --> 00:37:15.135 needed to be done. But, but for the most part, it um it has to be done 00:37:15.168 --> 00:37:20.385 less frequently now. Um So, 00:37:20.418 --> 00:37:22.945 uh 00:37:22.978 --> 00:37:30.057 in terms of evolution, uh there was this evolution in the thinking about 00:37:30.090 --> 00:37:36.956 the predation of the non native fish. Um I, I can't remember how that 00:37:36.989 --> 00:37:43.077 played out in terms of scientific studies. Uh 00:37:43.110 --> 00:37:48.227 And it seemed like we were always learning more and it may be one of the 00:37:48.260 --> 00:37:52.666 best studied reaches of river in the world, but there was always more to 00:37:52.699 --> 00:37:59.936 investigate and more to learn. Um Jack Schmidt when he took over as the 00:37:59.969 --> 00:38:03.327 chief of GCMRC 00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:05.396 was 00:38:05.429 --> 00:38:13.429 trying to make it more responsive to the needs and express desires of the 00:38:14.978 --> 00:38:20.026 different Amway participants. Uh And 00:38:20.059 --> 00:38:28.059 um and he certainly did that in terms of reporting. Um For example, 00:38:29.478 --> 00:38:33.916 another thing that was going on at the same time as this non native fish 00:38:33.949 --> 00:38:40.006 control environmental assessment was we were trying to uh do the 00:38:40.039 --> 00:38:46.747 environmental compliance for a protocol for high flow releases from Glen 00:38:46.780 --> 00:38:53.666 Canyon Dam. Previously, they had had three different high flow releases, I 00:38:53.699 --> 00:38:59.396 think in um 1994. 00:38:59.429 --> 00:39:05.436 No, that's not right. Any hill three of them. Last one was in 2008. 00:39:05.469 --> 00:39:10.537 Yeah. No, no, these I'm talking about um intentional high flow releases. 00:39:10.570 --> 00:39:13.256 So it might have been, 00:39:13.289 --> 00:39:20.546 I don't know, 9498 and 2008, something like that. Um I know two of them 00:39:20.579 --> 00:39:25.896 were four years apart and then there was a gap um but they had to do 00:39:25.929 --> 00:39:30.287 independent environmental compliance for each one. And so you had to gin 00:39:30.320 --> 00:39:36.396 up uh EIS or an E A and do all the public notice and, you know, have the 00:39:36.429 --> 00:39:44.256 um uh participating cooperating agencies and uh hearings and, you know, 00:39:44.289 --> 00:39:49.566 it's a big deal to do environmental compliance like that. And actually, 00:39:49.599 --> 00:39:55.836 when I first came in to um be the secretary's designee, 00:39:55.869 --> 00:40:01.267 um so this is 2009, there had been a very contentious meeting of the AM 00:40:01.300 --> 00:40:09.300 wig in March or April of 2009, at which there was a lot of controversy. 00:40:09.619 --> 00:40:17.619 And uh it was about um high flow releases and non native fish control. Uh 00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:24.695 And the um the operations of the dam in um the fluctuations that are done 00:40:24.728 --> 00:40:32.155 twice daily to follow the um the load requirements of the electrical grid. 00:40:32.188 --> 00:40:40.188 Um And that March of 2009 meeting resulted in a report to the secretary 00:40:40.208 --> 00:40:45.227 that said, here's what we recommend and a minority report that says we 00:40:45.260 --> 00:40:52.916 disagree and we recommend, you know, plan B. Um So one of the things that 00:40:52.949 --> 00:40:58.606 I did was uh read those reports um before I chaired the first AM wick 00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:04.916 meeting in August of that year. And I remember very well. One of the 00:41:04.949 --> 00:41:10.106 minority reports was written by the Grand Canyon River guides who were at 00:41:10.139 --> 00:41:17.247 the time represented by Andrei Potocnik. And it seemed to me to be a very 00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:23.217 well reasoned letter with recommendations and one of the recommendations 00:41:23.250 --> 00:41:28.967 in that report was we need to find a way to do these high flow releases 00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:33.385 when conditions are right without having to do environmental compliance 00:41:33.418 --> 00:41:38.977 for each one. And, and at the time, I thought, well, that makes sense. And 00:41:39.010 --> 00:41:47.010 um so it, it wasn't immediately um at, at that first meeting, but uh we 00:41:49.769 --> 00:41:55.845 started to talk about having a protocol for high flow releases. So we 00:41:55.878 --> 00:42:00.336 would examine the conditions in the river and see how much sediment was 00:42:00.369 --> 00:42:07.796 residing on the bed of the river. And if there was a lot of sediment that 00:42:07.829 --> 00:42:12.756 could be spread up higher and replenish the beaches and offset the erosion 00:42:12.789 --> 00:42:17.997 , then we would do a high flow experiment. So we did the environmental 00:42:18.030 --> 00:42:24.945 compliance for that protocol and that remains in place today and allows 00:42:24.978 --> 00:42:32.816 reclamation and GCMRC to determine if conditions are right and if they are 00:42:32.849 --> 00:42:40.849 to do a high flow release, and it even has a matrix for the um flow rate 00:42:42.438 --> 00:42:48.956 and duration of the high flow release based on how much sediment um they 00:42:48.989 --> 00:42:56.989 find in the bed. So, um so that was all uh going on. And the point of this 00:43:01.250 --> 00:43:08.776 story is that um because they were having more regular, you know, high 00:43:08.809 --> 00:43:13.606 flow releases under the protocol, people were really, really interested to 00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:19.986 see if it was having an effect on the sand bars and the camping beaches. 00:43:20.019 --> 00:43:26.425 And you know, is it doing what it is supposed to do. And so GCMRC, I think 00:43:26.458 --> 00:43:34.458 as part of the push to be responsive to the, the needs of the AM wig 00:43:36.179 --> 00:43:44.179 representatives in, in their, in their agencies, uh set up um, cameras 00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:49.655 that, that take photos, you know, on some regular basis and they're 00:43:49.688 --> 00:43:56.986 looking at sand bars, um, so they could take before and after pictures and 00:43:57.019 --> 00:44:03.046 then GCMRC would publish before and after pictures on their website pretty 00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:07.997 quickly after a high flow release took place and then they could monitor 00:44:08.030 --> 00:44:13.467 it over time and see. Ok. Well, we got, we replenished this sand bar, but 00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:18.577 then what happened? Um did it last or did it just get eroded away? And are 00:44:18.610 --> 00:44:26.610 we doing any good? Um And so that was just an example of um how I saw the 00:44:26.918 --> 00:44:34.756 science at GCMRC being adapted to be more responsive to operational needs 00:44:34.789 --> 00:44:38.615 and um 00:44:38.648 --> 00:44:45.425 uh to measure whether we were succeeding, you know, and whether we should 00:44:45.458 --> 00:44:50.977 keep going with these experimental treatments. There is a wonderful 00:44:51.010 --> 00:44:56.686 website that the GCMRC manages now that collects all of those before and 00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:00.925 after photos from the different HFES. 00:45:00.958 --> 00:45:06.845 And uh it's very accessible and easy to um you know, explore anybody 00:45:06.878 --> 00:45:10.816 that's open to the public. And it's to me, one of the best examples of 00:45:10.849 --> 00:45:16.106 making science accessible uh to the interested public. I love that website. 00:45:16.139 --> 00:45:20.425 Yeah. So it's uh it's interesting to me to hear that you were um you know 00:45:20.458 --> 00:45:25.017 , chair of amw at the time when, when that uh effort began. Yeah, 00:45:25.050 --> 00:45:30.876 absolutely successful. Yeah. And they developed as part of that whole 00:45:30.909 --> 00:45:38.909 process. They developed a model that um would um predict the amount of 00:45:40.010 --> 00:45:46.905 sediment on the bed of the river based on inflows and sediment 00:45:46.938 --> 00:45:53.945 measurements from the Korea River and the little Colorado. Yeah. Right. So 00:45:53.978 --> 00:46:00.276 that's something that I think is, you know, maybe unique in the world. Uh 00:46:00.309 --> 00:46:05.247 I'm not sure. And they didn't have anybody to crib from, in building that 00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:07.280 model.