This is Paul Hart and Jennifer Sweeney of Arizona State University,
speaking with Lee Kuan Woma of the Hopi tribe up in kilos Smally on
Saturday, September 8th 2018, Lee, thanks so much for speaking with us
today. Well, thanks for inviting me on this discussion. I appreciate it.
Great. Can you start by um telling us your name, the positions that
you've held with the Adaptive Management Program and the years that you've
been involved,
I was the former Director for the Hopi Tribes Cultural Preservation Office
um for 30 years and I retired last year in December of uh 0 17.
So, um in my capacity, um I could actually right in at the front when the
new EIS was uh happening back in the late 19 eighties. Uh I got hired in
1988
and so my involvement with this whole initiative on the effects of the
fluctuating dam releases. It's been 30 years. Yeah. So you were hired as
the Hopi Cultural Preservation Officer in 1988 and it was 1989 when the
federal government decided to start an environmental impact statement,
right? Ok. All right. And what role um like who first came to you and said
we would like some Hopi participation in this EIS. And how did that evolve
over time?
Well, to be Frank, nobody came to the Hopi uh much less to any tribe that
is currently engaged with the whole history of the dam. And um I just
happened to, I believe, back around um early 1990
uh read in the uh Flagstaff Daily uh sun that there was a meeting on the,
on the Grand Canyon Dam and by the Bureau of Reclamation and I was reading
the newspaper and I just out of curiosity, I didn't know, I and II, I
didn't know really what it was about except that, you know, it, it, the
picture of them up there, but I never realized that it wasn't dealing with
the whole Kenya, but that was how I got whiff of something happening. So I
went to that meeting, it was an evening meeting and I sat there listening
to it and there was a whole series of presentations on, on jumpstarting
the US.
And um it's time as the initial introductions came around
the, the, all the federal agencies, but of course, introduced himself and
the Bureau of Indian Affairs was introduced from Phoenix. And, and I
learned later that they were representing all 19 tribes in the State of
Arizona. And I, I sat there and, and actually at that meeting, I was
probably the only native person there, you know, and I was kind of be
bewildered and, and that's when I began to say, um, we got to learn more
about this, what's going on the CIS. And so I got some, a lot of handouts
then, you know, some background information and I took home a whole bunch
of that and, um,
I began to read it and it was indeed about the Grand, uh Grand Canyon Dam.
But what was interesting to me was that the whole issue was again the
water releases and the effects on the ecosystem. And, and I said this has
to be of interest to the tribe. I mean, it is an interest to the tribe.
So I got around to um just studying it more and, and then um meeting with
um our tribal officials over there and I said, look, this is something
that I think we got to pay attention to and, and, and, and that's where,
you know, I personally got involved with it and so on the next meeting and
, and, and which was up in Salt Lake, you know, of course, um the regional
office and, and, and of course, that's, that's time and money to us. And
uh and uh so I ended up doing some calls up there and pretty much still
articulating at least my personal interest as the director on behalf of
the tribe to follow it and to keep us abreast of it with information, that
kind of stuff is all about the only thing I did. And then the next meeting
again, I was in Phoenix. So I went to that one. And by that time, I had
reasonable assurance that the tribe, meaning the tribal council wanted to
actively participate. So I finally had um the floor given to me and I
introduced myself. And at that time, I was still the only tribal
representative and I said the Hopi tribe will engage in this whole eis
but independent of the Bureau of Indian Affairs and their representation
of other child were I believe quite capable of representing ourselves.
That's what I said. So that was put on record. All right. So that was
sort of my foot in the door, so to speak. And so that, that was, that,
that began our start in, in trying to figure out well, how are we gonna
participate? You know, and, and, and, and by that time, I think by the
third or fourth meeting I was in, then I began to know that there were uh
beyond the federal agencies, there were now a lot of other interested
parties to this whole initiative and, and, and that suddenly just
blossomed in front of me. And, and, and so that was uh something that I
was a bit overwhelmed with as to what that really uh uh look into the
future, how, how is all of this thing gonna work out? And um how is that
agents involved? How is that state involved, you know, and all, and all
centered around uh quite simply around um um contiguous lands to the
Colorado River all up to Wyoming. You know, I mean, that's, that's, that's
what I learned and there were interesting parties in the d even though
they were upstream.
Well, and then, so I went back and I, I, in the nineties, I was trying to
figure out what we were going to do and, and then I finally said, well,
looks like this E I is gonna require a lot of science, a lot of research.
And by golly, I got to determine what our, what our focus is was gonna be.
And it was the whole gamut of all three sciences, you know, biological,
natural and cultural. And of course, our forte even though I was just
beginning the office at that time was gonna be culture, even though I kind
of was already thinking they're all interconnected,
you know, for Hopi, they're not specific unto themselves. We have values
going all over those three sciences. I knew that as a Hopi in here, but we
have to develop a baseline for the other two sciences.
So that's why I was kinda cut my mind. And, you know, I'm not a
professional archaeologist, you know, my degree is in uh is in business,
you know, but I've been um in different capacity with the tribe. I've,
I've been exposed to different kinds of uh uh components of our culture.
Um, oh, and I grew up being Hoy but back then as I look back, I was pretty
young culturally. I was wet behind the ear. You think, you know,
everything when you're 38 but you don't. And over the time of my career I
was taught good lessons that I love to learn. But in here I was hoping and
growing up he learned about stories about the Grand Canyon. It is a very
highly respected place. If you begin to understand different,
different parts of what importance or sacredness means, you know, um my
grandfather
who I suspect was born in about 1880.
Uh They were among the last, they were the last group of young men who got
initiated into these highly ritual societies
um in 1902
from Oraibi village of T Mesa here. And they're required after that
initiations the following year in the fall, they did those salt
pilgrimages
and that's what they did. And we listened to those stories and all he
could tell us was that it took a long time to travel on foot with um with
mule donkeys and some horses all the way up to the decent place on the
little Colorado and then going down into the gorge and how precarious that
is. And it, and it the, the that part of the init initiation was to really
test the manhood of everyone, their both their physical,
emotional and spiritual manhood. And that's what these men and young young
men undertook.
And this was the stories that we heard where they finally got salt from
those Hopi salt mines and then traveled back to the village. And that
concluded their full initiations. That was the salt deposits in the canyon
wall down near the confluence of the Colorado River in Little Colorado
right there. And your grandfather took those pilgrimages.
So you kinda learn a little bit about it. But as a youngster, as a
teenager, you don't really, really um ok,
really sense the importance of these stories until later, you know. Um
So the canyon is, is uh is so significant to the Hopi people. You know,
our genesis we say comes from the Grand Canyon, we emerged from a place
called Saban. Um It's of course a symbolic place, but it's a shrine down
there where the clans emerge into the present world.
We were, we were greeted here by a spiritual person, we call Masa and, and
he accepted us, he accepted us. So out of this encounter and emergence, we
immediately already had
a physical knowledge of the Grand Canyon.
So today, after the Hopi villages were settled around 1040 or so,
then the whole culture of course, fully evolved, evolved into what it is
today. And part of what our belief system is is that we believe that when
a person passes on
your spirit rises after the fourth day and travels to the Grand Canyon,
that's our spiritual home government.
And then from there,
you turn into a spirit that we call the cloud people.
And they're the people that continue to visit us, our ancestral people in
the form of clouds. You know, this is who we petition to come visit us and
bring us rain.
So the Genesis and then our spiritual home is how the hope is to view the
Grand Canyon.
So
I thought and thought, I said, we have to be involved and I said, we are
going to have to look at our own culture and we're gonna have to in this
eise, we're gonna make any kind of impact. We're gonna have to document
our interest in the. So that was the first, uh, uh, actually research
project that I engaged in and, and, and, and, and money was the, was the
part that I didn't know how we didn't have. But after a series of meetings
,
they were now engaging in, in, in, um, contractors, you know, to, to con
conduct different sciences within the scope of the US.
And I said, at one of the meetings, I want that money too, you know, I
want that money too and they didn't plan for that. They didn't plan that
the tribes were gonna be interested parties into the US. So they basically
didn't have any allocations for quote, a tribal component of the whole
research. And I said, well, you got to find it and I'm going to give you a
research design and I'm gonna give you our budget and you're gonna give me
that money.
So that took about a year for me to kind of really absorb things. And then
also internally, I had to do my um internal uh um
what you call it uh education
building with the tribal council, the tribal council. And then by that
time, probably by 1990 91 I had a kind of like a cultural advisory team of
elders and they were my advisors on a lot of things. But this was a good
project for me to bring to the and, and do you remember about what year
that was 91? 91? Yeah, because that's when I hired Danowski too,
Id go, I had hired another archaeologist David Carmichael who's uh
currently teaching up at UTEP. And I think he was in the initial stages of
this EIS with me. He was an archaeologist too, but he didn't stay for too
long. Then I heard Kurt.
So we teamed up together and we, we um uh we, we uh work with our advisory
team and they were really, really good, very honorable gentlemen that
worked with us. They were religious uh priests and some of them were
religious leaders, you know, so they gave us a lot of cultural advice and
, and caution. So
with that, then I told Kurt, well, you go to the next meeting with me,
which we did and that's how both of us began to get immersed into the
process. And um, I think around that time they hired uh Dave Wagner, Dave
Wagner and, and, and he had been, uh um, he, he, he was helping all of
some of the contracts that were being dished out and he was at office over
in Flagstaff.
So we got acquainted with him. So he, he, I guess he was in the audience
when I told him that I want that money too.
So we met with him and there was still the question. We want our share of
the pot and we're prepared to give you a research proposal with our budget.
All right. And so he advised us that he had to do his internal. Um, he
was, he was, he was very receptive and he was very receptive and, and he
generally apologized to us on behalf of the whole effort to be reclamation
that the tribes were just forgot, forgot, oh, this, this whole whole whole
process. And he, he, but he was good. He immediately said, oh, I'm gonna
see that you get the money.
So within 23 weeks, he said, all right, we need to meet. So he came out to
help you and he got introduced to our advisory team which gave him a very
nice warm reception and then we talk nuts and bolts
and said, so be curt handed him our research design which had the review
of the advisory team
and we gave it to him and gave him our initial project initial budget. And
initially, I was under the impression there was just gonna be like a year.
I've never been engaged in a US, you know, and, and so I was inclined to
say we give him a one year budget, get as much money as we can, you know,
but as it turned out, it was, it was gonna linger on, you know, like seven
years. All right. So, so we hammered out a contract
and then I went before the tribal council
and with a tribal council. Oh by, by, by 19 early 91 1991. When we were
starting meeting with Wagner, I went before the tribal council and got a
resolution
declaring that we are going to be a cooperating agency.
We would have that status.
So I remember at the next meeting, I introduced that resolution gave it to
me and they gave me a seat when the chairman had wrote to them that I
would be the Hopi tribes voting member. So I became the first tribal
voting member and this needs to be highlighted. We became the first
cooperating agency, see, hoping and I became the first voting member on
the cooperating agency.
So that was taken care of in that manner. And then we got our budget and
we took a look at all three sciences.
How are we going to look at each one of them. So our initial research
design did capture that, that again, they're, they're integrated. See
that's how our initial proposal went into. And, and, and, and, and that,
that became part of this later history of how the Hopi tribe actually me
and Kurt writing really the cons concept of adaptive management of the, of
the Grand Canyon dams. Hope he wrote that the initial concept. All right.
And I'll tell you why. So
out of that then in 91
I believe, prior to the awarding of our contract and our status, I went on
a river trip, me and two other staff, we went on a, we went on a river
trip
and, and it was that I opened,
sorry about that. It was an eye opener for me. You know, it would have
been like 1990 that you went on the trip, I think. Yeah, I think early 90
I, I was, I was on that river trip just because they offered it to us was
this other members of the team were taking one of those
with
and in 99 and then 91 there about we had our first formal science trip
with Jan Balsam. And I think that's what the date. So we were the first uh
tribe and people to actually engage in, in this investigation.
And um
and that first trip was an eye opener for me and, and so, you know, you,
they actually advised not to the not to go to the Grand Canyon. That much.
The hope is because of our respect for the spiritual people that their
domain. So, so hope you have that in, in themselves that we, we should be
visiting, visiting and visiting it. We don't do that
and I still don't do that, you know, just occasional when I have to. But
so that was an eye opener for me because you can go to the rim and you're
all stricken.
It is so huge,
you know, and every time you go there, it still impacts you. And no wonder
our grandfathers talk about how hope is, have to be so respectful for the
Kenya. It's alive. It talks to you
everything down there. The ecosystem is alive and it talks to you
and I looked over, I go back and, and, and, and, and, and go back and
reminisce about times. I looked over the rim
when you finally get out of Marble Canyon,
get out of my b canyon out of this one bent.
Can you just, ah,
ok. I see all of you. Mm.
It is different looking down when you see the little river and then being
down there and seeing how massive the canyon is.
That was a teacher.
And that's why I said, no wonder our grandparents talk about this trip
down there about how significant the canyon is and what it does to you. If
there's any experience that gave, gave my, gave my, uh, grandpa
humility and me humility. It was that trip into the canyon on that trip.
Did you bring some of your Hopi elders who were a couple of? No, I didn't
do. Yeah. Well, 22 staff were older people. Then there were three of us
that went, yeah. And they were in their sixties by that time and I was
like 38 or 39.
So it was an eye eye opener in that way. And we went through and, you know
, of course, at that time, we were still doing the little boats.
That was a heck of an experience, you know, to eventually survive all of
the rapids downstream. I if you guys have been down there, but it's, it's
, it's a, it's a pretty arduous trip, you know, and, and, and, and it's
just an amazing ecosystem.
So, by 91 I believe around that time, we got our funding and we uh got our
first river trip down there and, and uh we, as in that time, I began to
know Jan Bols too. I think she was just getting started as well to about
the same time, I think maybe I, I think she started with a grandkid about
88 2 that there about. So, um
she went with us because uh one of our, our uh efforts was to investigate
as many archaeological sites down there. All right. So that was our first
attention down there. And from Lee's Ferry all the way to Phantom Ranch.
There's 300 plus archaeological sites all the way from there. A lot of it
, clearly ancestral Hopi because of the Hopi pulp, uh uh polychrome and
yellow air down there. And it, it, it matches our traditions in there
because the hope is they say they traded with other clans down the Grand
Canyon from here. You know, and, and they, they say that the wat people
from, from Flagstaff, they traded with the Grand Canyon people, you know,
things like that are traditions. So when you go down there and begin to
learn about the archaeology, the archaeologists will tell us, well,
there's evidence of, of Hopi yellow area. Could it be trade items? Could
be actually visitations by people probably both, you know, so that
reinforced our interest down to Kenya.
So
we went through that canyon first and we began to take a look at um or
sites that um were um in, in what they call the um study corridor, which
was the high water level, you know, and that prevented us from doing much
with other sites adjacent on, on, on the, within the canyons we hire above
the river and, and, and, and things like that, that kind of were
restricting us. Although we later, we did visit a lot of those sites in
the Kenya. But initially that was our intention span and, and, and so
talking with um Jen who was still also then learning about the whole
impact in archaeology down there. I think we began to help her understand
our viewpoints on what we call our, our ancestral sites.
So,
so that's how we started with those uh visits down there. And, and so, and
then as we took that first trip with our, with our crew and some elders,
there was one, I think 78 year old guy, that one was on that first ship,
that first research ship.
Actually two of them, um,
as we went through, we were interested in collecting some of the plants
because they were culturally in Porto, you know, so we were inquiring, you
know, let's take a little bit here because that's what we make, we use
these uh willow to make our, um, uh our prayer sticks, things like that
were popping up, you know. And, uh, there were other types of, um, uh
pollen, pollen out there. I think that was during the spring trip and they
began to gather that as well. And in one of the site, uh, the hikes that
we went into Buck Canyon, I think
one guy said he was t telling us. I said, hey, you guys come here. So we
went back to and, and he said, there's, there's wild spinach all over here.
He said, and we looked up, yeah. Uh huh. Ah, they were nice spinach. We
call, we wa so coming back then we harvested armfuls of that and we had
that for supper. You know, so clearly our interest in, in, in, in the
biological research was there, you know, and it grew, it grew over the
seven years, we were doing the ri uh river trips like that. See. So for
example, we learned about the invasive species of which of course is um um
tamarisk, we learned about other invasive species of the little Colorado
River because we went up to zip up thorn, camel, thorn, you know, terrible
plant and, and all of that we learned. But so some of the questions is,
how do you feel about eradication of Tamari standard? Well, on one of the
trips we went, I think we were going uh somewhere, we stopped and there,
there was a whole Tamas um kinda like this here. That's Tamas through
there, kinda really thick. And you know what? There are a lot of finches
through there. And some of one guy said, look how can we destroy their
habitat? They're alive and well up here. So this dichotomy of trying to
mitigate invasive species now went this way when the tribe even saw value
in the temer tickets. See this is what we were doing down there.
So, and then, and then I remember on our 1st 1st trip where only three of
us went, I remember
camping that one night, first night like that next morning,
the river was way down here and we were kept to where a boat was stuck.
And so
the boatman knew it. But at the time that we landed at camp, it was high
water. So of course, they had to unload everything. So they pitched the
boat right there and then,
and then, then, then those boats are really, really heavy with those
little boats, pushing, tugging,
trying to get back to the water level. And that's because the, the dam
operations were releasing less water. And it's not that, you know, there
was. So that's what we, we learned, you know, it's really the effects on,
on this whole ecosystem though there were
where uh because of especially the initial releases where it was basically
unregulated, you know, and, and how a power of course, is, is goes with
what the power demand is, right? Um Vegas elsewhere, did they sell that
power?
So in, in the high power demand periods, then they go as high as 100,000
CFS.
And so we had to explain to our elders what is CFS, you know, cubic feet
per second. So kinda this box here, it holds about five gallons, you know
, that kind of stuff. And then during low power demand that goes down as
low as 3000 C MS. This was this huge fluctuation.
So that captured my attention, no wonder.
And it's about time, it's about time they regulate. That was my me and
Kurt's opinion. So we came in later with a clear vision of the purpose of
the US and what the tribal contribute, contribute contributions
we're gonna look like from hoping.
So we hired a contractor and Dave Wagner was kind enough to give us money
after money after a year. And we hired a contractor by the name of TJ
Ferguson. You're probably familiar with the name. I've met him that saw
his report and we eventually filed the Grand Canyon. There's no history
report, very extensive report. That was a great study, very, very
significant stuff. And that took that many years and a couple of years of
writing it to to file finally come up with a report. So
of course, out of that, um
the record of decision came about. So it uh narrowed the fluctuation
and and so today, hope, I believe if you take a look at the Bureau Nations
Tribal Reports, I believe we have the most extensive science, scientific
reports based on our research design. And then later how we identify
certain research areas as we traveled from the first time that uh we
started going down there, you know. So in one area, we monitor sediments
in another area, we hired the, the, well, the sediments on all throughout.
But on, on, on several cases where is clearly has a conflict between
Tamari and willow, we monitor that. So of course, all the time we're
taking photographs. And initially, we, we initially, we were looking at
all photographs of those respective areas and that's our record up to now
that we're doing, see. And at the same time, uh, annually we take about 10
hies down the Grand Canyon and they give us either,
uh, this past, uh, month, uh, in, in September, we took, um, early
September, we took, uh, 10 and, uh, six of six of them were new people and
younger people. So, so we try to mix them up, but every year we get new
pers, we get prospectus
and technically new perspectives. But really the perspectives are
consistent the prior before going into the Grand Canyon, how they feel
about it. That's pretty consistent after they go through the river trip
and learning about what we do down there and the science, we're doing the
cultural resources down there, you know, coming out a lot of the new times
are they have a better, better perspective on how those are being affected
by the dam operations, but they're pretty consistent all throughout. And
so I think that's, that's indication that the Hopi culture is, is
unwavering. It, it, it, it, you know, our villages are 1000 years old, the
hope you still have a full 12 month ceremonial cycle, you know, and today
we're going into the woman's ceremonies right now. So it never ends for us
, it never ends. We're always in the Kiva. So, so I think it's, it
reflects the vibrancy of the Hopi culture and we're fortunate to be able
to say that. So I think our
really our um
or um
when I think back, I think our participation was worth our while. And
today since 90 since 98 thereabouts, we're engaged in what they call,
monitoring, monitoring trips now. So we still are building up our record
to each year there's a river trip and every year I think um Mike Yates
just told me he just got off the river. That was our Hopi trip. Yeah. Do
you miss going down the river? Yeah, I miss going, I've gone down there
about maybe out of 30 years, about uh 11 times because I maybe even less
because I, I just have that respect for the Kenya, but I'm the leader too
, you know, and Mike kind of his desires that I should be on the trip. But
, you know, here I said, II, I, you shouldn't be doing that many times.
But so yeah, so, so later other tribes joined us, other tribes joined. Do
you remember who the next, the second one was? I think it was the sun
and then the Navajos came in, all the pies and pilots came in and, and uh
II, I don't know. I said we have uh I,
I think that I guess personally concerns me, you know, because our Hopi
trips are very, very, I think, culturally respectful from day one. I said
no alcohol on our trip, no alcohol period.
And when our first uh trip with Jan, I remember our boatman took alcohol,
you know, and, and, and uh we advised him that our trips are non alcoholic.
So over time, our reputation grew that we knew so much about the history
of the Grand Canyon. Culturally, the archaeological sites, the petroglyphs
were interpreting left and right down there. Our values in terms of the
erosion of the effects of erosion on burials. What that causes us to have
to now
rebury only a partial of a remain, right? Those were emotional. So the
boat men of course, were learning and the Hopi trip just grew and
everybody wanted to be on the Hopi trips and every one of those trips, the
boatman later vowed that they would not be taking alcohol on it. So since
then, our trips have been non alcohol and I think the tribe's reputation
on the river is there, you know, whereas through today and I still
complain to the other tribes, the Sunni still take alcohol, Navas is a big
fishing trip for them. Paiutes, take alcohol while of pies take alcohol. I
told him one time you guys just need to stop.
You guys keep telling everybody that you, you have respect for the canyon
at least stop that. I mean, that's just kind of my personal thing, but
that's because you know how much I think we value the canyon. It's kind of
ironic too because of course all the commercial trips take that and
there's a lot of occasions um because we take our ceremonial pipes in our
native tobacco. So at the end of the day,
at the end of the day after we uh pitch camp, then the hope is gathered in
a circle and we pass the pipe
give thanks for a nice day and a good day. You know, thank you for
everything. There's, there's many times where the Hopi camp is right. It's
right next to a commercial camp where the Hopi are meditating and these
guys are drinking and laughing over here and the Hopi are trying to
meditate.
It's like that throughout the river. And um I'm quite a contrast. Yeah.
And, and so it, so it, it's uh yeah, it's, it's, it's been a good
experience for me to engage in the, the the the the the river trips. Um OK.
And then later, now these monitoring chips that we have now and to be
able to
be a part of getting new people to go down there and to, to so that they
can also begin to uh get another view of the Grand Canyon which I like
like I did. And um you mentioned Dave Wagner being very supportive and,
and helpful. I wonder if you can talk just a little bit about um how as
leadership of the Adaptive Management Program evolved over time, how your
personal relationship with other members of the AM wig and the Hopi tribes
larger relationship with the whole Adaptive Management program? How that
changed over time? Were there phases where things were really cooper and
then other phases when not so much as how, how did it evolve? Well, after
, you know, uh initially was, of course, uh
was the um uh members as cooperating agencies, you know, that was, that
was the first cohort of uh people coming together, you know, throughout
the uh until the record of decision came about. So um there were already
now uh developing a list of stakeholders, it grew and, and so I went
through that and Mike became the uh my alternate as a voting member, Mike
Yates. Well, Kurt, initially and then more recently uh um uh Mike and um
I think the adaptive um I mean, the, the, the corporate agency uh group I
think was um uh it was pretty uh I think routine, every, everyone,
everyone, those stakeholders had a different kind of interest in it, you
know, and, and, and, and, and um uh there was a AAA lot of emphasis on
biological resources, particularly the Humpback chop.
OK. So um
Humpback job budget even through today take more take is giving a lot of
more money than the tribes together. That's how this, this disport of the
budgets were. And I learned that fast, especially once it got into this
whole process of fighting for money, your university was getting millions
of dollars to pump up phd S
and when you look at the pie chart, we're buried into recreation, little
slice
still like that.
And then when in, uh and then when, so we were fighting for budgets to
once we got into the, the monitoring and the adaptive management work
group, that's where, you know, again, budgets came around all the time and
people were still just to, just to find their money.
And that became a challenge to all the tribes. But we were able to form a
block of votes between the four or five tribes and then the interior
agencies that, that's how it was set up. So if the tribes made a motion on
their, on their whatever they wanted to put before the whole group, when
it came to a vote, then those interior people would vote for the tribe.
That's how the politics were working out until, um, until the back, uh,
until the solicitor solicitor said that they couldn't do that anymore. So
we lost about four or five agencies for blocking well, under an castle and
castle when the interior agency stopped voting. Right? Uh Yeah, that's
when they stopped and they took those votes away from, from us. So now we
were again in a minority. Uh huh. She still true today. And, um, so
yeah, so did the tribes often vote as a block? Do they? Do you all talk to
each other and coordinate over the last 10 years prior to the M week
meetings? We have a, a day before where the tribal caucus. So, of course,
by that time, we have the full package. So we have an idea what's going to
be in store for us and what some of the action items, if any are going to
be important to us. And, but the tribal discussion is going to be. And I
tell you
this is not being, um, sort of, uh,
I don't know how you would put it
when it came to something like a sudden kind of turn of events where a
discussion started and we start, the whole group started talking.
Almost all the tribes would look at me and said, Lee, what do you think?
You know, I was going through that and the action item and the motions and
amendments to the motions, all of the thing that goes on and then the, the
, the, the subject it had. What do you think, Lee? And I'm trying to
scratch my head and then I give it my best shot, you know. So in that way
, I was sort of uh still kind of leading the group in discussions too. And
I'm, I'm, I'm glad for my colleagues, you know, uh Charlie Bullets from p
uh Tim be gay from Navajo. Um There were several councilman from Zuni uh
that they, they get appointed every two years, I think to am wick um
Bounder from Navajo initially too as well. Uh Which, what was the name of
the first Navajo you mentioned, Tim Tim Tim.
He was usually the one that was uh usually present. Donner came in,
occasionally, he was their director. How do you spell his name? Ellen
Donner down? Er,
and he is also a Navajo rat. Yeah, he was the tribal historic preservation
officer and Tim Bega was their cultural specialist.
And uh you said Charlie Bullets, how do you spell his last name? Bull ETS
ETS.
And uh he represented one of one or the whole collection of Paiute. He, no
, he uh he, he represented the Consortium of Paiutes.
And then um these were early participants. These were, well, this was on
the people that I work with early on. Uh Tim is still engaged, Tim be gay.
Uh Now they have a new director called Richard Begat. So um they're
pretty nice guys who did you work with, with the Zuni? It was Octavia uh
Co2,
Octavius
Seo
Te
Otewa,
I think cot one cot one Zuni. Yeah. And uh who did you work with, with uh
wallaby trying with uh Marita Jack Saxon? Yeah. She was a very strong
advocate too. She was uh articulate. She's on our list to do soon. Yeah.
She was, she was a very strong advocate of, of uh our collective um
involvement.
It's strange we hear from uh we've heard from other people too besides you
that the Havasupai tribe was not often actually and because they were
willing to participate in and one of the chairman went down there and I uh
I pre I presented uh at least um some guidance to them trying to encourage
them that they should be participating, but they never did, they never did.
Which is unfortunate, I think because, you know, of course the canyon
goes right into the canyon. The big canyon. Yeah.
Why, um can I ask you why you thought it would be important to get as many
tribes are presented as possible?
Well, like I said, I learned quickly that
once in particular Diam, we got organized and it was seated. Um it was
plain and simple politics for, in, in, in, for a number of reasons. You
know, when I mentioned, of course, this budget and then of course, um some
of the debate on, on different um for example, um water releases, for
example, and the timing of those releases, I think uh I think we had our
Caucasus.
Uh fortunately, the, the Hopi tribe had a hydrologist too, we had our own
hydrologist. So he was helping us from the technical side, see. Um
So we were able to, to uh kind of round table some of these uh issues and
then go in to see what we can do. Um And then the, the big one was the uh
the, the, the electric electrocution of those uh uh uh tr uh that was a
big controversy initially to, to hoping because we, we were the only ones
that commented on that proposal. So our record stands that one, the
initial uh uh area that they were gonna uh zap those trout by the
thousands was right at the confluence, you know, a sacred site, a very
sacred site to us. You know, and it, it encompasses this kind of concept
of the spiritual domain. So
well, it's our finality. As I told you, it was also the beginning of our
spiritual life. I one day hope to become a cloud person to visit all of
you people.
That's how we believe. So it's the beginning of life for us. So our I said
to Kurt, you know how it best explain it is that if they kill all these
fish,
they're taking
life away from living creatures and Hopi when they do their prayer,
feathers and prayer offerings. It's for the perpetuation of life. It's not
for the end of life. No.
So even though that proposal had a purpose because the effect on the
Humpback chub and the overpopulation, you know, it just didn't sit well if
they dare do that, it's gonna create this aura of death. That was our
argument and we got the beer commission here.
So they moved, they moved uh that area to someplace for the up the river.
See, these are some of the things that we were we were engaging in too.
Yeah. Did you um about when did this tribal caucus begin to form? Was it
after the record of decision or did it start forming before that? No. II,
I think the actual caucus itself began to form a after MW was established
prior to that with the research part of it, we were pretty independent and
we would as cooperating agency meet. But we didn't have really, I really
have a quote, a united front so to speak. We would talk during lunch and
stuff like that. But, but it was right, right after an AMW that we, we, uh
, dedicate ourselves to having this caucus prior to the meetings. And is
that still functioning today? Is there still a caucus day before the
regular meetings?
And if you had more uh tribal representatives, you would have a more
powerful caucus. You, but you didn't, was there any problem with, you know
, you mentioned funding problems a couple of times many other people that
we talked to, this is a really, you can't get anything done if you don't
have financing to get it done. And there's a limited pie. Was there ever
any thought that more tribal participants would mean less money for each
of the tribes? Or was there a set amount of money that everybody,
regardless, it was a set of money that was eventually given to each tribe
, respective tribes?
Although the Hopi tribe got funded um for some specific proposals, some
research, research proposals. I don't know if other tribes did, but we got
additional money. Uh It was, it was coming out of uh something called the
Terrestrial Funding program and, and for biological research for
biological research because we were beginning to document, um, everything
down there. Not just the plants, but, but because everything that we have
around here has some cultural value. Uh, the, the, the, the water life and
of course, the fish, the, the, the frogs, the snakes, um, the birds, even
the wildlife up there. When elder said that when we saw a rattlesnake
around there, he made a very interesting comment, you know, during the,
the fall towards the winter, when it gets cold, they hibernate, they're
gonna go into the den somewhere.
Isn't the water gonna suffocate them when they go up,
you know, no one really thought about that. And that's right because we
still have the snake dance today. It's an ancient ancient ceremony that
was just performed three weeks ago again. So the value on our reptilian
relatives we call them because once we go through that snake ceremony,
they present it back to the ground after they're captured and they become
, become our messengers, our prayers. So there's no value in this. Elder
said, doesn't that happen to the snakes when the water goes up and floods
?
You know, and that was something I never thought of so engaged in that we
talked about the, the bird life up there. Um, and, and, and then the, um,
like I said, it's just an amazing ecosystem you wouldn't imagine until you
go down there and there's creeks coming in from the top somewhere from,
from different aquifers, just some white, some small, but they're coming
into the canyon, you know, and if you, if you go up in some of those
creeks, it is just rich in vegetation. Just, oh, man, you know, all kind
of plans an oasis
and you will never guess that that was in the candy, right? So, yeah, we,
so we began to get um, uh, uh, information and uh uh, and research into
all kinds of, of uh biological resources, you know. So, yeah. Um so we got
money to do that uh hard too. So today we have a handbook that we got uh
uh developed of all of the biological,
the uh in particular, the biological and uh and the uh cultural resources
in a handbook like that. And that's given to all of our river participants
to read prior to going down there to look what the order has been
documented, you know, and they're doing that. So that, that was a product
of it and that product is now also available into the school system. Yeah
, where students are learning from that handbook too. Yeah.
Can you talk a little bit about um how uh you think the uh caucus, the
tribal caucus related to the rest of the members and stakeholders of Ham
wig and how uh what that relationship was like? Uh Was it real cooper? Was
it tense? Did uh did it change over time? All thing though, or that many?
Really? Controversial issues that with the tribe um had to argue um for
the merits of their position. I, I think, I think um as best as I know,
and remember, I think all of the MW membership were highly professional,
very, very professional and very courteous to each other. And the tribe
showed that respect in return too. So I don't think it was contentious.
They just knew that we now had a voting block and I think there was um
slowly some recognition that our part participation was there to stay. So
I think they had to accept that. So III I think when, when we did our
presentations uh and hope he did their presentations too, you know, uh for
example, um
we need powerpoints initially and still do about why we chose to
participate. What the values of the Kenyon uh is to the hope is and how
the dam operations affected that we outlined that, you know, every year
and remind the people that, that, that that's the Hopi reason why we're
here. We do that too. So me and Mike were doing powerpoint presentations.
Um and then other tribes came in too and they would begin to have slots
within the agenda. So they would provide us those opportunity to do that
too. And of course, during the discussions, we would, if we had any kind
of uh comments or, or, or questions, we would ask those questions too. So
I think the dialogue was basically good. I think. Iiii, I got to know a
lot of people, you know, some became my friends, you know, and, uh,
certainly, you know, the, the, um, the, the non um government
organizations, the, the River Guides, for example, uh, they became uh
allies with the tribes, you know, the Sierra. I don't know if the Sierra
Club was in there but other, other, uh, organizations, Grand Canyon Trust
of, they, they, you know, they were certain times they voted for the
tribes too. So things like that, but it wasn't really political, political
, but they knew our presence was there. Yeah, that's good. And um I know
that uh there was some resistance early on very early in the program. Um
uh we keep hearing from interviewees that the uh the uh water and
hydropower interests like the Bureau of reclamation and wa a really
resisted making significant adjustments to the management of the dam to
accommodate biological and cultural issues. Did you experience any of that
in the years that you were involved? Were there caucuses of the, say, the
hydropower and water interest? Yeah. But once you got to know all the
agents is represented, I mean, you know, that you had restrictive caucuses
, the power interests were usually on one end of the table and the tribes
would be here and the NGO S would be here like that, you know, and the
Feds would be one. Yeah. And, and sometimes, yeah, they, they were very,
very strong in their opinions. And I told the chairman, you know,
one of the state representations on Hewick are attorneys, lawyers.
That's who we battle with. You know, I'm not an attorney, but they are,
and they argue that they argue that and, and so that's sort of the chasm
that I think existed in some ways between the power interest, you know,
iiii I, it was really, really obvious, but I think overall, I think the
way they, um I think discussed matters in representing their strong views
was still respectful.
So you feel the structure of the Ham wig was set up in such a way that
even though there were some caucuses and there were some inequities in
power dynamics that it was still a structured process that was fair and
everybody got a chance to speak and everybody listened, you know, I think
respectfully to each other. Gosh. Iiii, I forgot her name but they hired,
um Mary Mary Orton and, and,
and she was good. I, I tell you, I have the highest respect for her. And
when I, when they somehow didn't renew her contract, I was the only one
that objected to her and they now got her back but she was good. She had,
yeah, I was the only one from the m wig that objected to her contract.
But, you know, but she's back. But I think she was the one who keep kept
and we gonna even kill. She was very, very highly, um proficient in, in,
in her role in moderating the discussion and the, the technical help she
has in terms of motions and they would flash it on the screen, get it
edited right there and debate it and wow, she had a big brain to remember
all the discussions. Remember you said this thing? This is that what you
meant, you know. Yeah, Mary Orn was her name and III, I um went back uh
back and forth after she wasn't working anymore. And I told her I would
try to get her back on which which which we did. She told us when we
interviewed her, she told us about a very important river trip in which uh
uh a key group of stakeholders went and kind of hammered out uh a new way
of, of thinking about and working together. Were you on that river trip?
That's what I'm saying, man, Kurt, we're on the river trip, I believe. But
see, see that was uh right after the record of decisions when the feds
were now also getting these river trips uh together for the stakeholders.
See, but early on when we were writing our research pro pro proposal,
the Hopi proposal was to, to have an integrated approach to for the 33
sciences. And um
and um so we were talking with Dave Wagner about the future of the dam
after the record of decision already. So between the three of us, we began
to try to formulate how is this gonna work? You know, because we are now
realizing that there was a enormity of stakeholders, right? And, and we
would have now science to guide us, right? And science would still be
ongoing. So the whole management had to adapt to those circumstances. Me,
Kurt and Dave Wagner were the ones that formulated that and that's what we
brought in to some of the first cooperating agency meetings where that
term and concept later became formal starts again in the early 19 nineties.
Well, we didn't talk about that early on and then now to implement it
through M week to establish M week, you know. Yeah, we, we talked about it
a lot and, and I think Dave uh also needs to be credit in giving us a
sense of that concept too. So looking um long term at the program in your
long decades of experience with it. Do you think that um it's been largely
successful? And uh how so?
Well, II, I think um with the level of effort we did, I think um I think
it's highly commendable. I think the support we have internally the um the
the religious community coming in to give us that direction and
individuals within the bureau of reclamation that were very uh uh good
people to work with, you know, and, and do you remember any specific
people in the Bureau of reclamation that you felt were good to work with.
Um,
see, some have gone already too back then. And then
do you remember Dave Garrett? Dave Garrett was one of them too. Yeah, we
interviewed him and he expressed a lot of, uh, support and concern for
getting more robust tribal uh participation. He was, uh, he was one that
supported us a lot and we actually would invite him to our tribal caucuses
too. And sometimes, um, we would ask the secretary to come to on our
tribal caucuses. So they would sit in and have lunch with us and we would
round table these things. So it's a matter of courtesy to them. You mean
the Secretary of the Interior Design
and Castle would sit in with us and have lunch with us. Yeah. So, so I
think they appreciated that because there was now some, some, um some uh
some discussions from, from the respective tribes that she would hear
direct from 1 to 12. And so then they would, after the caucuses then on a
very specific issue, then they would designate someone to articulate that
during, during that discussion that that's how we work the regular a
meeting like that and they were privy to that. So Garrett was one of them.
Yeah. So I think tho those kind of support, I think helped a lot. Um I uh
advocated for particular for more money to, to get into the uh natural
science component of it. But I wasn't successful in doing that. I wanted
to get um uh some of our younger people uh who were uh over at N EU in um
in geology, for example, to actually come in and get uh funded or a
program funded at N EU to, to, to, to support those students. But I never
was able to find justification to do that. We have an emou with the U the
Otal preservation office and that's meant to um facilitate that. But uh we
just couldn't break loose the money and we still have some students in
there. I mean, it's still going on and I wish we could get money to get a
strong, you know, science, Natural Resource, Natural Science Program over
at N EU. And that would be one of my recommendations, you know, is that
the tribes need support to uh to offer scholarships and internships, you
know, uh to continue to support them through their masters and even into
the doctoral programs, you know, other than um some struggles with
adequate funding to support, you know, research and participation. Are
there any other um disappointments or what you consider to be limitations
or flaws in the program as it's developed over time?
Well,
it's adaptive management. So I suppose you're gonna have changes
throughout the implementation of the record of decision. And um uh I think
resources are always gonna be a, a problem. Um I think the power interests
are still gonna present their views on everything. They are a major
stakeholder. Um
But I think, I think the way it started,
even from the cooperating agency standpoint, because a lot of us floated
into the MW, a lot of us did was that at that level of cooperating agency
, I think everything
was formal but yet informal. All right, it was, it was, it was uh
different types of meeting that we would engage in as cooperating agency
because we were still heading towards the record of decision. But you
already had your compliment of, of, of people now coming forward to be
part of the cooperating agencies, these agencies. So from that point on, I
think that acquaintances that I had early on with some of those same
individuals, even people from WAP A, we began to know each other, you know
, every day, I mean, every meeting we would say so call each other by our
name, do high fives. And so I think that in itself was a key moderator in
, in how am wig later shaped itself to continue to conduct business in
that way. So I think that I think was a good transition and some of us
holdovers contributed to that. I think
so. Um it sounds like you think the program has uh substantial value and
ought to be continued,
I think. So, I think so, you know, with the experimental water releases,
for example, they're intermittent, right? They're intermittent, the fact
of the matter is, is that there's still no sediment going downstream.
That's, that's the reality. So, so the the water releases are intermittent
, that's meant to help, right? Um These high flow releases, high flow
releases. Yeah. So that's gonna be ongoing and that, that is, that was
part of Amway's decision eventually to do those. See, so that's happening
now. So I think over time it's gonna take a long time before the whole
ecosystem
at least has some evidence of recovery,
it ain't gonna happen. But some over time, you know, and that has to be
still part of copious interest. So I think from our part, it has to
continue that monitoring has to continue and whether wa a likes it or not
, I think that has to happen.
Yeah, the long term perspective,
you can't learn a lot if you're only looking at something for a few years
or a decade. Um
So that long term perspective and that learning and relationship building
you're saying is uh is really valuable. And I think so and I've always
tried to do that in my capacity as a director, you know, uh rather than be
an adversary. I uh I, I encourage partnership and that's been my
philosophy as a Hoy person and that's how I try to represent the office
here.
Um You have kind of stepped down from the really central role that you
played for so many decades and others are stepping in. So, um that's my
next question is what advice do you have for people who will be coming on
to the AM wig in the coming years? What advice would you give them about
how to approach the task, how to think about their role, how to prepare to
be effective? Well, I'm still actually a voting member of Am wig. Good. My
,
my term hasn't ended and the chairman hasn't replaced me with anybody. So
I'm technically still a member of Am wig. And like I said, one of my staff
is my successor and I think he's academically. Um uh he's academically. Um
um uh what do you call it? Um
Found it. He's got, yeah, he's got a master's in anthropology and it
worked for me for about 12 years as an anthropologist and as a researcher.
So, um he's been attend, he attended the, the last one over in Flagstaff
uh with me. And so I said that this is what happens here. A bunch of
boring stuff.
So you're mentoring it. Yeah. So tell me, so this is what happens and
these are the issues. So make sure that you, when you get the packet, make
sure you take a look at it and see what is relevant to, to either Hopi or
tribes and continue to communicate with Mike Yates who by the way is also
retiring. Yeah. End of this year too. So he's been with me. Is he going on
30 years this year too? Yeah. Yeah, Kurt worked for me for about a dozen
or maybe 15 years. Yeah. And now he's working for the, yeah, we
interviewed him about a month ago. Yeah, he kept, he, he, he helped me get
our archaeology program off the ground. Uh Yeah. So we now have our full
staff of archaeologists and everything. Yeah. So, um, I think over time, I
hope the, the Hopi tribes participation doesn't, uh, um, one but continues
to be as strong as it has been. And uh I think Stewart will again, like
it's doing um he's learning the ropes, we'll learn the ropes on this whole
a program called Am Wick.
Uh What are your hopes for the future? I mean, we've had almost 30 years
of history with this program and things related to water flows and
fisheries and cultural resources have been addressed. What, what issues
aren't being addressed or what new issues do you think are gonna come up
that the Am wick will have to face in the future?
Oh, let me see. So, um
so I think some of the um
new changing facing our mic uh is something that I was curious about um in
terms of um you know, the, the, the, the, the, the range of releases
that's dictated by the record of decision
because the big pole is at 40 per 60% capacity right now. Yes. You know,
and, and you see it physically, you see it right? The, the white lines.
It's,
you know, a lot of water. So I think that that needs to be taking note of
how, how does that affect who a, uh, water releases, uh, you know, and
would that require a supplemental eis at some point if it continued to go
down? Right. See, and we got, I was looking at the data and we're
technically in a 20 year drought and this is huge and I know as a fy
farmer, I know it, you know, and, and so I think that's a new issue that I
think hopefully can be addressed at some point too or prepared for. Um,
I think the control of trout is gonna still be, uh, uh, population. So
won't be a problem. Um, I don't know how we address it because there's
just so many of them in there from Lier on all the way down to the
confluence, you know, because of the cold or clearer water, it's good
habitat for them and that's been a big, big change for them, you know. Uh
, and, and, and
so that's, that was one thing I was thinking about the, the Lake Powell.
Um,
yeah, that's what I had in mind. I mean, we, uh, we're looking at a
situation where it's possible that that lake could continue to fall. It's
, you know, it was when you started this program in the 19 nineties, that
was only about 10 years after that huge flood of 1983 the reservoir was
still full as of about the year 2000. Um But now, you know, Lake Mead is
uh a third full and, and Lake Powell is half full and um there's no
guarantee that the new climate regime isn't, you know, gonna change and go
back to what it was before. There's a chance that everything's going to be
different. And this is an adaptive management program.
Do you think about what kinds of adaptations might be facing us in the
next 10 or 20 years if this is the new normal, this climate regime that we
have now? Yeah. Well, I think um as a, as a non scientist, of course, you
know, I see the low levels of lake power and uh look at the dam in itself
, the height it is and, and where the generators are located, you know,
because over time, I don't know what the projections was, but eventually
it will fill up with sediment anyway, you know. But um but I'm just
worried as, as the water goes down, what are the power and how the power
just gonna deal with that in terms of the fluctuations cause they're
currently allowed a certain range
and they'll probably put a big fight if we could not do it reduce the
anymore because of the low levels of power. I think that's the
circumstances again that I'm speaking to right now because I uh we had a
meeting up at the page the other day and I went through it again, like
Powell, the bridge and over and God, you know, the ramps are getting
longer and longer. The boat ramps like that. And it's, it's sad, you know.
Um,
maybe if it goes low we'll see our archaeological sites again. 2000 plus
that were inundated.
Yeah, we occasionally have to react, uh, remain that's eroded from
somewhere and is found on the beach somewhere. A bone. They turned to a
prehistoric, whatever, everything with the burials on that. But uh and
then, um
I think because of water shortage,
I think there's gonna be more impact like with uh uh cap
by cap central water because of the water shortage because that's what
they're drawing on to, to feed water into Phoenix and other areas. Uh I
think they're gonna probably want to up that, you know, and the tribes
adjacent them gonna wanna demand their share. So I think that's a long
term effect of, of, of the ecosystem down there where more water will have
to be drawn out to address the drought right now. I think that's one thing
that I've, I've been thinking about too.
Well. Um Last question is there anybody else that you think we should uh
be sure to interview uh that you've already mentioned uh a good number of
people like Charlie Bullets and Tim MC and Octavia Octavius,
Loretta Jackson M Downer. Ellen Down, Ellen Downer is over in Hawaii.
Sipping Margarita,
maybe we can go join him and get him there.
Um Anybody else that you thought played an important role or would have an
unusual perspective? Well, you interviewed Jen for example. But, um, uh,
and we interviewed Dave Wagner, uh,
let me see the other two if you're able to reach them because they were
instrumental in, in AM wick recently or, um, the former, uh, park service
superintendent Steve Martin or somebody before him or after him after him.
Well, Steve Martin was involved too. Yeah, I think he's might be back in
the Flagstaff area. I'm thinking about Steve. Steve. Yes. Yeah, they have
a home there. Yeah.
But it was the person who came after Steve Martin. Um,
I forgot his name. Dave. Uh,
dang, what was his last name? He had a kind of funny last name.
I thought Steve Martin was a funny name too. I love him. Exactly. Yeah, I
can look it up and then, and then, um, after Steve was another
superintendent, uh,
what, what was his name? Unger? Dave? Unger. Dave Unger or Dave. Yeah, I,
I'm correcting or, uh, I'll look it up and, and you remember him as
important because, well, they were instrumental when, when, um, she Steve
was there during the, the, uh, um, the initial phases where we were in the
nineties up and then, um, uh, then he left and then another superintendent
took over and he was there for a long time. Uh, Unger Ars Burger, orange
burger burger. That's right. Steve orange burger. And so he was there for
quite a while and he would be a good person to talk to. They, they, they,
they were on our tribal caucus when it came to votes.
You had a lot of support from the, the Department of Interior Agencies. It
sounds like other than maybe Bureau of reclamation.
Did they attend your caucuses? Bor No, we never invited them.
All right. Well, I think we've covered everything. Is there any last
comments you'd like to make before we shut off the tape recorder? Well,
let me see. And, and
uh since you have our looks like you have our report, the one that we did
, we took a look at it that yes, of course. Um lays out really the
cultural values of the Grand Canyon, right? So, feel free to draw on that.
Thank you. Um
Oh,
any other documents that you can think of are very important? Well, on the
record of decision. Uh there, there is a, there's, there's appendices of
all the tribal chapters
uh that, so there's a Hopi chapter Pau chapter nao chapter Zuni Chap.
They're all in there as part of the record of decision. So I think that
would be a good source for you to do it pretty much as uh synthesizes what
it is in our big report. OK? But it has all of our initial recommendations.
All right. So that comes to my mind.
Just tell Bureau of reclamation, I want more money. Bye bye. Yes. You know
, you're probably aware of this. Just in the last couple of months, the
Trump administration has announced that they're sweeping all the funds
that all the hydropower revenue that had been funding. This program is
going to treasury and there's a chance that the program may no longer
exist by 2019.
That would be a shame. Yeah, that was, that was alert last fall already on
that. But it's gonna be too bad if it does. You know, because there's so
much energy, you know, put into this effort here and it's, it's, uh, in my
opinion, it's an effort worthwhile. And I think
with what's at stake
in terms of the canyon being a very special place for us all over America
, you know, I think a sense of monitoring and caretaking and good
management. It's really, um, it's really needed into the future. That's
what I think.
I think that's a great place to stop.
Wonderful.