WEBVTT

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 This is Paul Hart and Jennifer Sweeney of Arizona State University,

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speaking with Lee Kuan Woma of the
Hopi tribe up in kilos Smally on

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Saturday, September 8th 2018, Lee,
thanks so much for speaking with us

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today. Well, thanks for inviting me on
this discussion. I appreciate it.

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Great. Can you start by um telling us
your name, the positions that

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you've held with the Adaptive
Management Program and the years that you've

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been involved,

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I was the former Director for the Hopi
Tribes Cultural Preservation Office

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um for 30 years and I retired last
year in December of uh 0 17.

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So, um in my capacity, um I could
actually right in at the front when the

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new EIS was uh happening back in the
late 19 eighties. Uh I got hired in

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1988

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and so my involvement with this whole
initiative on the effects of the

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fluctuating dam releases. It's been 30
years. Yeah. So you were hired as

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the Hopi Cultural Preservation Officer
in 1988 and it was 1989 when the

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federal government decided to start an
environmental impact statement,

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right? Ok. All right. And what role um
like who first came to you and said

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we would like some Hopi participation
in this EIS. And how did that evolve

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over time?

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Well, to be Frank, nobody came to the
Hopi uh much less to any tribe that

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is currently engaged with the whole
history of the dam. And um I just

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happened to, I believe, back around um
early 1990

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uh read in the uh Flagstaff Daily uh
sun that there was a meeting on the,

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on the Grand Canyon Dam and by the
Bureau of Reclamation and I was reading

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the newspaper and I just out of
curiosity, I didn't know, I and II, I

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didn't know really what it was about
except that, you know, it, it, the

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picture of them up there, but I never
realized that it wasn't dealing with

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the whole Kenya, but that was how I
got whiff of something happening. So I

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went to that meeting, it was an
evening meeting and I sat there listening

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to it and there was a whole series of
presentations on, on jumpstarting

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the US.

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And um it's time as the initial
introductions came around

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the, the, all the federal agencies,
but of course, introduced himself and

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the Bureau of Indian Affairs was
introduced from Phoenix. And, and I

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learned later that they were
representing all 19 tribes in the State of

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Arizona. And I, I sat there and, and
actually at that meeting, I was

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probably the only native person there,
you know, and I was kind of be

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bewildered and, and that's when I
began to say, um, we got to learn more

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about this, what's going on the CIS.
And so I got some, a lot of handouts

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then, you know, some background
information and I took home a whole bunch

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of that and, um,

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I began to read it and it was indeed
about the Grand, uh Grand Canyon Dam.

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But what was interesting to me was
that the whole issue was again the

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water releases and the effects on the
ecosystem. And, and I said this has

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to be of interest to the tribe. I
mean, it is an interest to the tribe.

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So I got around to um just studying it
more and, and then um meeting with

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um our tribal officials over there and
I said, look, this is something

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that I think we got to pay attention
to and, and, and, and that's where,

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you know, I personally got involved
with it and so on the next meeting and

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, and, and which was up in Salt Lake,
you know, of course, um the regional

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office and, and, and of course,
that's, that's time and money to us. And

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uh and uh so I ended up doing some
calls up there and pretty much still

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articulating at least my personal
interest as the director on behalf of

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the tribe to follow it and to keep us
abreast of it with information, that

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kind of stuff is all about the only
thing I did. And then the next meeting

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again, I was in Phoenix. So I went to
that one. And by that time, I had

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reasonable assurance that the tribe,
meaning the tribal council wanted to

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actively participate. So I finally had
um the floor given to me and I

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introduced myself. And at that time, I
was still the only tribal

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representative and I said the Hopi
tribe will engage in this whole eis

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but independent of the Bureau of
Indian Affairs and their representation

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of other child were I believe quite
capable of representing ourselves.

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That's what I said. So that was put on
record. All right. So that was

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sort of my foot in the door, so to
speak. And so that, that was, that,

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that began our start in, in trying to
figure out well, how are we gonna

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participate? You know, and, and, and,
and by that time, I think by the

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third or fourth meeting I was in, then
I began to know that there were uh

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beyond the federal agencies, there
were now a lot of other interested

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parties to this whole initiative and,
and, and that suddenly just

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blossomed in front of me. And, and,
and so that was uh something that I

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was a bit overwhelmed with as to what
that really uh uh look into the

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future, how, how is all of this thing
gonna work out? And um how is that

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agents involved? How is that state
involved, you know, and all, and all

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centered around uh quite simply around
um um contiguous lands to the

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Colorado River all up to Wyoming. You
know, I mean, that's, that's, that's

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what I learned and there were
interesting parties in the d even though

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they were upstream.

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Well, and then, so I went back and I,
I, in the nineties, I was trying to

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figure out what we were going to do
and, and then I finally said, well,

00:08:16.678 --> 00:08:23.949
looks like this E I is gonna require a
lot of science, a lot of research.

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And by golly, I got to determine what our, what our focus is was gonna be.

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And it was the whole gamut of all three sciences, you know, biological,

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natural and cultural. And of course,
our forte even though I was just

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beginning the office at that time was
gonna be culture, even though I kind

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of was already thinking they're all
interconnected,

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you know, for Hopi, they're not
specific unto themselves. We have values

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going all over those three sciences. I
knew that as a Hopi in here, but we

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have to develop a baseline for the
other two sciences.

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So that's why I was kinda cut my mind.
And, you know, I'm not a

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professional archaeologist, you know,
my degree is in uh is in business,

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you know, but I've been um in
different capacity with the tribe. I've,

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I've been exposed to different kinds
of uh uh components of our culture.

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Um, oh, and I grew up being Hoy but
back then as I look back, I was pretty

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young culturally. I was wet behind the
ear. You think, you know,

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everything when you're 38 but you
don't. And over the time of my career I

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was taught good lessons that I love to
learn. But in here I was hoping and

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growing up he learned about stories
about the Grand Canyon. It is a very

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highly respected place. If you begin
to understand different,

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different parts of what importance or
sacredness means, you know, um my

00:10:33.798 --> 00:10:35.907
grandfather

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who I suspect was born in about 1880.

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Uh They were among the last, they were
the last group of young men who got

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initiated into these highly ritual
societies

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um in 1902

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from Oraibi village of T Mesa here.
And they're required after that

00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:09.525
initiations the following year in the
fall, they did those salt

00:11:09.558 --> 00:11:11.746
pilgrimages

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and that's what they did. And we
listened to those stories and all he

00:11:18.969 --> 00:11:26.969
could tell us was that it took a long
time to travel on foot with um with

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mule donkeys and some horses all the
way up to the decent place on the

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little Colorado and then going down
into the gorge and how precarious that

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is. And it, and it the, the that part
of the init initiation was to really

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test the manhood of everyone, their
both their physical,

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emotional and spiritual manhood. And
that's what these men and young young

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men undertook.

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And this was the stories that we heard
where they finally got salt from

00:12:08.719 --> 00:12:16.366
those Hopi salt mines and then
traveled back to the village. And that

00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:21.486
concluded their full initiations. That
was the salt deposits in the canyon

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wall down near the confluence of the
Colorado River in Little Colorado

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right there. And your grandfather took
those pilgrimages.

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So you kinda learn a little bit about
it. But as a youngster, as a

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teenager, you don't really, really um
ok,

00:12:41.750 --> 00:12:49.750
really sense the importance of these
stories until later, you know. Um

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So the canyon is, is uh is so
significant to the Hopi people. You know,

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our genesis we say comes from the
Grand Canyon, we emerged from a place

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called Saban. Um It's of course a
symbolic place, but it's a shrine down

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there where the clans emerge into the
present world.

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We were, we were greeted here by a
spiritual person, we call Masa and, and

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he accepted us, he accepted us. So out
of this encounter and emergence, we

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immediately already had

00:13:42.558 --> 00:13:47.657
a physical knowledge of the Grand
Canyon.

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So today, after the Hopi villages were
settled around 1040 or so,

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then the whole culture of course,
fully evolved, evolved into what it is

00:14:03.109 --> 00:14:11.109
today. And part of what our belief
system is is that we believe that when

00:14:12.808 --> 00:14:17.706
a person passes on

00:14:17.739 --> 00:14:24.307
your spirit rises after the fourth day
and travels to the Grand Canyon,

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that's our spiritual home government.

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And then from there,

00:14:31.450 --> 00:14:38.525
you turn into a spirit that we call
the cloud people.

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And they're the people that continue
to visit us, our ancestral people in

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the form of clouds. You know, this is
who we petition to come visit us and

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bring us rain.

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So the Genesis and then our spiritual
home is how the hope is to view the

00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:02.787
Grand Canyon.

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So

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I thought and thought, I said, we have
to be involved and I said, we are

00:15:11.158 --> 00:15:16.816
going to have to look at our own
culture and we're gonna have to in this

00:15:16.849 --> 00:15:21.186
eise, we're gonna make any kind of
impact. We're gonna have to document

00:15:21.219 --> 00:15:27.635
our interest in the. So that was the
first, uh, uh, actually research

00:15:27.668 --> 00:15:35.668
project that I engaged in and, and,
and, and, and money was the, was the

00:15:35.950 --> 00:15:43.566
part that I didn't know how we didn't
have. But after a series of meetings

00:15:43.599 --> 00:15:45.895
,

00:15:45.928 --> 00:15:53.125
they were now engaging in, in, in, um,
contractors, you know, to, to con

00:15:53.158 --> 00:15:59.326
conduct different sciences within the
scope of the US.

00:15:59.359 --> 00:16:07.359
And I said, at one of the meetings, I
want that money too, you know, I

00:16:07.359 --> 00:16:15.359
want that money too and they didn't
plan for that. They didn't plan that

00:16:15.710 --> 00:16:23.657
the tribes were gonna be interested
parties into the US. So they basically

00:16:23.690 --> 00:16:28.537
didn't have any allocations for quote,
a tribal component of the whole

00:16:28.570 --> 00:16:34.976
research. And I said, well, you got to
find it and I'm going to give you a

00:16:35.009 --> 00:16:40.005
research design and I'm gonna give you
our budget and you're gonna give me

00:16:40.038 --> 00:16:42.417
that money.

00:16:42.450 --> 00:16:47.375
So that took about a year for me to
kind of really absorb things. And then

00:16:47.408 --> 00:16:55.408
also internally, I had to do my um
internal uh um

00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:59.255
what you call it uh education

00:16:59.288 --> 00:17:04.295
building with the tribal council, the
tribal council. And then by that

00:17:04.328 --> 00:17:10.976
time, probably by 1990 91 I had a kind
of like a cultural advisory team of

00:17:11.009 --> 00:17:16.526
elders and they were my advisors on a
lot of things. But this was a good

00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:22.166
project for me to bring to the and,
and do you remember about what year

00:17:22.199 --> 00:17:29.467
that was 91? 91? Yeah, because that's
when I hired Danowski too,

00:17:29.500 --> 00:17:35.285
Id go, I had hired another
archaeologist David Carmichael who's uh

00:17:35.318 --> 00:17:41.406
currently teaching up at UTEP. And I
think he was in the initial stages of

00:17:41.439 --> 00:17:45.717
this EIS with me. He was an
archaeologist too, but he didn't stay for too

00:17:45.750 --> 00:17:49.597
long. Then I heard Kurt.

00:17:49.630 --> 00:17:57.630
So we teamed up together and we, we um
uh we, we uh work with our advisory

00:17:59.608 --> 00:18:05.097
team and they were really, really
good, very honorable gentlemen that

00:18:05.130 --> 00:18:09.357
worked with us. They were religious uh
priests and some of them were

00:18:09.390 --> 00:18:17.107
religious leaders, you know, so they
gave us a lot of cultural advice and

00:18:17.140 --> 00:18:22.456
, and caution. So

00:18:22.489 --> 00:18:28.785
with that, then I told Kurt, well, you
go to the next meeting with me,

00:18:28.818 --> 00:18:33.597
which we did and that's how both of us
began to get immersed into the

00:18:33.630 --> 00:18:41.630
process. And um, I think around that
time they hired uh Dave Wagner, Dave

00:18:43.170 --> 00:18:49.357
Wagner and, and, and he had been, uh
um, he, he, he was helping all of

00:18:49.390 --> 00:18:54.367
some of the contracts that were being
dished out and he was at office over

00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.426
in Flagstaff.

00:18:56.459 --> 00:19:00.256
So we got acquainted with him. So he,
he, I guess he was in the audience

00:19:00.289 --> 00:19:04.055
when I told him that I want that money
too.

00:19:04.088 --> 00:19:09.617
So we met with him and there was still
the question. We want our share of

00:19:09.650 --> 00:19:17.650
the pot and we're prepared to give you
a research proposal with our budget.

00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:26.000
All right. And so he advised us that
he had to do his internal. Um, he

00:19:27.729 --> 00:19:33.285
was, he was, he was very receptive and
he was very receptive and, and he

00:19:33.318 --> 00:19:40.097
generally apologized to us on behalf
of the whole effort to be reclamation

00:19:40.130 --> 00:19:44.857
that the tribes were just forgot,
forgot, oh, this, this whole whole whole

00:19:44.890 --> 00:19:51.976
process. And he, he, but he was good.
He immediately said, oh, I'm gonna

00:19:52.009 --> 00:19:55.166
see that you get the money.

00:19:55.199 --> 00:20:02.897
So within 23 weeks, he said, all
right, we need to meet. So he came out to

00:20:02.930 --> 00:20:07.486
help you and he got introduced to our
advisory team which gave him a very

00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:14.795
nice warm reception and then we talk
nuts and bolts

00:20:14.828 --> 00:20:20.305
and said, so be curt handed him our
research design which had the review

00:20:20.338 --> 00:20:23.867
of the advisory team

00:20:23.900 --> 00:20:30.825
and we gave it to him and gave him our
initial project initial budget. And

00:20:30.858 --> 00:20:35.496
initially, I was under the impression
there was just gonna be like a year.

00:20:35.529 --> 00:20:43.026
I've never been engaged in a US, you
know, and, and so I was inclined to

00:20:43.059 --> 00:20:49.426
say we give him a one year budget, get
as much money as we can, you know,

00:20:49.459 --> 00:20:55.617
but as it turned out, it was, it was
gonna linger on, you know, like seven

00:20:55.650 --> 00:21:02.686
years. All right. So, so we hammered
out a contract

00:21:02.719 --> 00:21:06.516
and then I went before the tribal
council

00:21:06.549 --> 00:21:13.996
and with a tribal council. Oh by, by,
by 19 early 91 1991. When we were

00:21:14.029 --> 00:21:17.936
starting meeting with Wagner, I went
before the tribal council and got a

00:21:17.969 --> 00:21:20.756
resolution

00:21:20.789 --> 00:21:25.476
declaring that we are going to be a
cooperating agency.

00:21:25.509 --> 00:21:28.795
We would have that status.

00:21:28.828 --> 00:21:33.946
So I remember at the next meeting, I
introduced that resolution gave it to

00:21:33.979 --> 00:21:41.236
me and they gave me a seat when the
chairman had wrote to them that I

00:21:41.269 --> 00:21:46.526
would be the Hopi tribes voting
member. So I became the first tribal

00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:52.117
voting member and this needs to be
highlighted. We became the first

00:21:52.150 --> 00:22:00.150
cooperating agency, see, hoping and I
became the first voting member on

00:22:00.150 --> 00:22:03.276
the cooperating agency.

00:22:03.309 --> 00:22:10.666
So that was taken care of in that
manner. And then we got our budget and

00:22:10.699 --> 00:22:15.766
we took a look at all three sciences.

00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:23.717
How are we going to look at each one
of them. So our initial research

00:22:23.750 --> 00:22:31.750
design did capture that, that again,
they're, they're integrated. See

00:22:32.479 --> 00:22:40.479
that's how our initial proposal went
into. And, and, and, and, and that,

00:22:42.328 --> 00:22:50.328
that became part of this later history
of how the Hopi tribe actually me

00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:57.805
and Kurt writing really the cons
concept of adaptive management of the, of

00:22:57.838 --> 00:23:04.867
the Grand Canyon dams. Hope he wrote
that the initial concept. All right.

00:23:04.900 --> 00:23:09.246
 And I'll tell you why. So

00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:13.617
out of that then in 91

00:23:13.650 --> 00:23:20.246
I believe, prior to the awarding of
our contract and our status, I went on

00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:27.166
a river trip, me and two other staff,
we went on a, we went on a river

00:23:27.199 --> 00:23:30.035
trip

00:23:30.068 --> 00:23:37.706
and, and it was that I opened,

00:23:37.739 --> 00:23:43.726
sorry about that. It was an eye opener
for me. You know, it would have

00:23:43.759 --> 00:23:49.256
been like 1990 that you went on the
trip, I think. Yeah, I think early 90

00:23:49.289 --> 00:23:54.467
I, I was, I was on that river trip
just because they offered it to us was

00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:59.706
this other members of the team were
taking one of those

00:23:59.739 --> 00:24:02.176
with

00:24:02.209 --> 00:24:10.209
and in 99 and then 91 there about we
had our first formal science trip

00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:17.206
with Jan Balsam. And I think that's
what the date. So we were the first uh

00:24:17.239 --> 00:24:23.795
tribe and people to actually engage
in, in this investigation.

00:24:23.828 --> 00:24:28.065
And um

00:24:28.098 --> 00:24:36.098
and that first trip was an eye opener
for me and, and so, you know, you,

00:24:40.269 --> 00:24:46.176
they actually advised not to the not
to go to the Grand Canyon. That much.

00:24:46.209 --> 00:24:51.107
The hope is because of our respect for
the spiritual people that their

00:24:51.140 --> 00:24:58.387
domain. So, so hope you have that in,
in themselves that we, we should be

00:24:58.420 --> 00:25:03.575
visiting, visiting and visiting it. We
don't do that

00:25:03.608 --> 00:25:08.877
and I still don't do that, you know,
just occasional when I have to. But

00:25:08.910 --> 00:25:15.055
so that was an eye opener for me
because you can go to the rim and you're

00:25:15.088 --> 00:25:17.335
all stricken.

00:25:17.368 --> 00:25:20.147
It is so huge,

00:25:20.180 --> 00:25:28.180
you know, and every time you go there,
it still impacts you. And no wonder

00:25:28.358 --> 00:25:35.585
our grandfathers talk about how hope
is, have to be so respectful for the

00:25:35.618 --> 00:25:41.016
Kenya. It's alive. It talks to you

00:25:41.049 --> 00:25:47.617
everything down there. The ecosystem
is alive and it talks to you

00:25:47.650 --> 00:25:54.976
and I looked over, I go back and, and,
and, and, and, and go back and

00:25:55.009 --> 00:25:59.026
reminisce about times. I looked over
the rim

00:25:59.059 --> 00:26:03.085
when you finally get out of Marble
Canyon,

00:26:03.118 --> 00:26:09.315
get out of my b canyon out of this one
bent.

00:26:09.348 --> 00:26:12.976
Can you just, ah,

00:26:13.009 --> 00:26:17.335
ok. I see all of you. Mm.

00:26:17.368 --> 00:26:22.565
It is different looking down when you
see the little river and then being

00:26:22.598 --> 00:26:30.598
down there and seeing how massive the
canyon is.

00:26:31.439 --> 00:26:34.607
That was a teacher.

00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:39.877
And that's why I said, no wonder our
grandparents talk about this trip

00:26:39.910 --> 00:26:47.726
down there about how significant the
canyon is and what it does to you. If

00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:55.759
there's any experience that gave, gave
my, gave my, uh, grandpa

00:26:56.180 --> 00:27:04.180
humility and me humility. It was that
trip into the canyon on that trip.

00:27:04.259 --> 00:27:09.176
Did you bring some of your Hopi elders
who were a couple of? No, I didn't

00:27:09.209 --> 00:27:13.736
do. Yeah. Well, 22 staff were older
people. Then there were three of us

00:27:13.769 --> 00:27:18.585
that went, yeah. And they were in
their sixties by that time and I was

00:27:18.618 --> 00:27:21.726
like 38 or 39.

00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:29.256
So it was an eye eye opener in that
way. And we went through and, you know

00:27:29.289 --> 00:27:33.897
, of course, at that time, we were
still doing the little boats.

00:27:33.930 --> 00:27:40.565
That was a heck of an experience, you
know, to eventually survive all of

00:27:40.598 --> 00:27:45.377
the rapids downstream. I if you guys
have been down there, but it's, it's

00:27:45.410 --> 00:27:53.137
, it's a, it's a pretty arduous trip,
you know, and, and, and, and it's

00:27:53.170 --> 00:27:57.456
just an amazing ecosystem.

00:27:57.489 --> 00:28:03.666
So, by 91 I believe around that time,
we got our funding and we uh got our

00:28:03.699 --> 00:28:10.647
first river trip down there and, and
uh we, as in that time, I began to

00:28:10.680 --> 00:28:15.575
know Jan Bols too. I think she was
just getting started as well to about

00:28:15.608 --> 00:28:20.006
the same time, I think maybe I, I
think she started with a grandkid about

00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:27.506
88 2 that there about. So, um

00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:34.946
she went with us because uh one of
our, our uh efforts was to investigate

00:28:34.979 --> 00:28:41.387
as many archaeological sites down
there. All right. So that was our first

00:28:41.420 --> 00:28:46.555
attention down there. And from Lee's
Ferry all the way to Phantom Ranch.

00:28:46.588 --> 00:28:52.266
There's 300 plus archaeological sites
all the way from there. A lot of it

00:28:52.299 --> 00:28:58.246
, clearly ancestral Hopi because of
the Hopi pulp, uh uh polychrome and

00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:04.016
yellow air down there. And it, it, it
matches our traditions in there

00:29:04.049 --> 00:29:08.756
because the hope is they say they
traded with other clans down the Grand

00:29:08.789 --> 00:29:15.045
Canyon from here. You know, and, and
they, they say that the wat people

00:29:15.078 --> 00:29:20.256
from, from Flagstaff, they traded with
the Grand Canyon people, you know,

00:29:20.289 --> 00:29:24.565
things like that are traditions. So
when you go down there and begin to

00:29:24.598 --> 00:29:29.627
learn about the archaeology, the
archaeologists will tell us, well,

00:29:29.660 --> 00:29:34.746
there's evidence of, of Hopi yellow
area. Could it be trade items? Could

00:29:34.779 --> 00:29:41.357
be actually visitations by people
probably both, you know, so that

00:29:41.390 --> 00:29:47.946
reinforced our interest down to Kenya.

00:29:47.979 --> 00:29:51.166
So

00:29:51.199 --> 00:29:58.016
we went through that canyon first and
we began to take a look at um or

00:29:58.049 --> 00:30:05.085
sites that um were um in, in what they
call the um study corridor, which

00:30:05.118 --> 00:30:10.045
was the high water level, you know,
and that prevented us from doing much

00:30:10.078 --> 00:30:15.467
with other sites adjacent on, on, on
the, within the canyons we hire above

00:30:15.500 --> 00:30:21.045
the river and, and, and, and things
like that, that kind of were

00:30:21.078 --> 00:30:25.815
restricting us. Although we later, we
did visit a lot of those sites in

00:30:25.848 --> 00:30:32.166
the Kenya. But initially that was our
intention span and, and, and so

00:30:32.199 --> 00:30:38.436
talking with um Jen who was still also
then learning about the whole

00:30:38.469 --> 00:30:46.469
impact in archaeology down there. I
think we began to help her understand

00:30:46.848 --> 00:30:54.446
our viewpoints on what we call our,
our ancestral sites.

00:30:54.479 --> 00:30:57.107
So,

00:30:57.140 --> 00:31:04.147
so that's how we started with those uh
visits down there. And, and so, and

00:31:04.180 --> 00:31:10.555
then as we took that first trip with
our, with our crew and some elders,

00:31:10.588 --> 00:31:16.305
there was one, I think 78 year old
guy, that one was on that first ship,

00:31:16.338 --> 00:31:19.815
that first research ship.

00:31:19.848 --> 00:31:26.085
Actually two of them, um,

00:31:26.118 --> 00:31:32.656
as we went through, we were interested
in collecting some of the plants

00:31:32.689 --> 00:31:38.176
because they were culturally in Porto,
you know, so we were inquiring, you

00:31:38.209 --> 00:31:43.526
know, let's take a little bit here
because that's what we make, we use

00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:49.946
these uh willow to make our, um, uh
our prayer sticks, things like that

00:31:49.979 --> 00:31:55.815
were popping up, you know. And, uh,
there were other types of, um, uh

00:31:55.848 --> 00:32:02.406
pollen, pollen out there. I think that
was during the spring trip and they

00:32:02.439 --> 00:32:08.367
began to gather that as well. And in
one of the site, uh, the hikes that

00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:12.367
we went into Buck Canyon, I think

00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:18.535
one guy said he was t telling us. I
said, hey, you guys come here. So we

00:32:18.568 --> 00:32:23.717
went back to and, and he said,
there's, there's wild spinach all over here.

00:32:23.750 --> 00:32:30.266
He said, and we looked up, yeah. Uh
huh. Ah, they were nice spinach. We

00:32:30.299 --> 00:32:36.166
call, we wa so coming back then we
harvested armfuls of that and we had

00:32:36.199 --> 00:32:44.199
that for supper. You know, so clearly
our interest in, in, in, in the

00:32:44.598 --> 00:32:51.795
biological research was there, you
know, and it grew, it grew over the

00:32:51.828 --> 00:32:58.085
seven years, we were doing the ri uh
river trips like that. See. So for

00:32:58.118 --> 00:33:05.377
example, we learned about the invasive
species of which of course is um um

00:33:05.410 --> 00:33:10.325
tamarisk, we learned about other
invasive species of the little Colorado

00:33:10.358 --> 00:33:16.387
River because we went up to zip up
thorn, camel, thorn, you know, terrible

00:33:16.420 --> 00:33:24.226
plant and, and all of that we learned.
But so some of the questions is,

00:33:24.259 --> 00:33:30.016
how do you feel about eradication of
Tamari standard? Well, on one of the

00:33:30.049 --> 00:33:35.756
trips we went, I think we were going
uh somewhere, we stopped and there,

00:33:35.789 --> 00:33:41.575
there was a whole Tamas um kinda like
this here. That's Tamas through

00:33:41.608 --> 00:33:47.597
there, kinda really thick. And you
know what? There are a lot of finches

00:33:47.630 --> 00:33:54.107
through there. And some of one guy
said, look how can we destroy their

00:33:54.140 --> 00:34:02.140
habitat? They're alive and well up
here. So this dichotomy of trying to

00:34:03.309 --> 00:34:11.309
mitigate invasive species now went
this way when the tribe even saw value

00:34:12.228 --> 00:34:18.977
in the temer tickets. See this is what
we were doing down there.

00:34:19.010 --> 00:34:24.747
So, and then, and then I remember on
our 1st 1st trip where only three of

00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:28.854
us went, I remember

00:34:28.887 --> 00:34:36.887
camping that one night, first night
like that next morning,

00:34:37.407 --> 00:34:45.327
the river was way down here and we
were kept to where a boat was stuck.

00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:48.615
And so

00:34:48.648 --> 00:34:53.476
the boatman knew it. But at the time
that we landed at camp, it was high

00:34:53.509 --> 00:35:00.385
water. So of course, they had to
unload everything. So they pitched the

00:35:00.418 --> 00:35:04.195
boat right there and then,

00:35:04.228 --> 00:35:08.077
and then, then, then those boats are
really, really heavy with those

00:35:08.110 --> 00:35:12.336
little boats, pushing, tugging,

00:35:12.369 --> 00:35:16.756
trying to get back to the water level.
And that's because the, the dam

00:35:16.789 --> 00:35:21.287
operations were releasing less water.
And it's not that, you know, there

00:35:21.320 --> 00:35:26.345
was. So that's what we, we learned,
you know, it's really the effects on,

00:35:26.378 --> 00:35:30.896
on this whole ecosystem though there
were

00:35:30.929 --> 00:35:36.175
where uh because of especially the
initial releases where it was basically

00:35:36.208 --> 00:35:43.546
unregulated, you know, and, and how a
power of course, is, is goes with

00:35:43.579 --> 00:35:49.405
what the power demand is, right? Um
Vegas elsewhere, did they sell that

00:35:49.438 --> 00:35:52.017
power?

00:35:52.050 --> 00:35:59.046
So in, in the high power demand
periods, then they go as high as 100,000

00:35:59.079 --> 00:36:01.445
CFS.

00:36:01.478 --> 00:36:07.686
And so we had to explain to our elders
what is CFS, you know, cubic feet

00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:14.736
per second. So kinda this box here, it
holds about five gallons, you know

00:36:14.769 --> 00:36:20.077
, that kind of stuff. And then during
low power demand that goes down as

00:36:20.110 --> 00:36:26.916
low as 3000 C MS. This was this huge
fluctuation.

00:36:26.949 --> 00:36:32.037
So that captured my attention, no
wonder.

00:36:32.070 --> 00:36:38.635
And it's about time, it's about time
they regulate. That was my me and

00:36:38.668 --> 00:36:46.668
Kurt's opinion. So we came in later
with a clear vision of the purpose of

00:36:46.739 --> 00:36:54.739
the US and what the tribal contribute,
contribute contributions

00:36:57.340 --> 00:37:01.206
we're gonna look like from hoping.

00:37:01.239 --> 00:37:08.436
So we hired a contractor and Dave
Wagner was kind enough to give us money

00:37:08.469 --> 00:37:14.316
after money after a year. And we hired
a contractor by the name of TJ

00:37:14.349 --> 00:37:18.217
Ferguson. You're probably familiar
with the name. I've met him that saw

00:37:18.250 --> 00:37:24.595
his report and we eventually filed the
Grand Canyon. There's no history

00:37:24.628 --> 00:37:30.405
report, very extensive report. That
was a great study, very, very

00:37:30.438 --> 00:37:35.967
significant stuff. And that took that
many years and a couple of years of

00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:43.345
writing it to to file finally come up
with a report. So

00:37:43.378 --> 00:37:47.057
of course, out of that, um

00:37:47.090 --> 00:37:55.090
the record of decision came about. So
it uh narrowed the fluctuation

00:37:56.148 --> 00:38:03.916
and and so today, hope, I believe if
you take a look at the Bureau Nations

00:38:03.949 --> 00:38:11.436
Tribal Reports, I believe we have the
most extensive science, scientific

00:38:11.469 --> 00:38:17.635
reports based on our research design.
And then later how we identify

00:38:17.668 --> 00:38:24.537
certain research areas as we traveled
from the first time that uh we

00:38:24.570 --> 00:38:30.767
started going down there, you know. So
in one area, we monitor sediments

00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:36.385
in another area, we hired the, the,
well, the sediments on all throughout.

00:38:36.418 --> 00:38:40.856
But on, on, on several cases where is
clearly has a conflict between

00:38:40.889 --> 00:38:45.767
Tamari and willow, we monitor that. So
of course, all the time we're

00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.586
taking photographs. And initially, we,
we initially, we were looking at

00:38:49.619 --> 00:38:55.997
all photographs of those respective
areas and that's our record up to now

00:38:56.030 --> 00:39:03.756
that we're doing, see. And at the same
time, uh, annually we take about 10

00:39:03.789 --> 00:39:09.756
hies down the Grand Canyon and they
give us either,

00:39:09.789 --> 00:39:15.807
uh, this past, uh, month, uh, in, in
September, we took, um, early

00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:23.106
September, we took, uh, 10 and, uh,
six of six of them were new people and

00:39:23.139 --> 00:39:29.345
younger people. So, so we try to mix
them up, but every year we get new

00:39:29.378 --> 00:39:32.787
pers, we get prospectus

00:39:32.820 --> 00:39:38.057
and technically new perspectives. But
really the perspectives are

00:39:38.090 --> 00:39:44.006
consistent the prior before going into
the Grand Canyon, how they feel

00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:49.276
about it. That's pretty consistent
after they go through the river trip

00:39:49.309 --> 00:39:54.537
and learning about what we do down
there and the science, we're doing the

00:39:54.570 --> 00:40:01.626
cultural resources down there, you
know, coming out a lot of the new times

00:40:01.659 --> 00:40:08.135
are they have a better, better
perspective on how those are being affected

00:40:08.168 --> 00:40:14.686
by the dam operations, but they're
pretty consistent all throughout. And

00:40:14.719 --> 00:40:20.767
so I think that's, that's indication
that the Hopi culture is, is

00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:27.017
unwavering. It, it, it, it, you know,
our villages are 1000 years old, the

00:40:27.050 --> 00:40:34.227
hope you still have a full 12 month
ceremonial cycle, you know, and today

00:40:34.260 --> 00:40:38.756
we're going into the woman's
ceremonies right now. So it never ends for us

00:40:38.789 --> 00:40:46.789
, it never ends. We're always in the
Kiva. So, so I think it's, it

00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:52.546
reflects the vibrancy of the Hopi
culture and we're fortunate to be able

00:40:52.579 --> 00:40:58.227
to say that. So I think our

00:40:58.260 --> 00:41:02.106
really our um

00:41:02.139 --> 00:41:06.845
or um

00:41:06.878 --> 00:41:13.095
when I think back, I think our
participation was worth our while. And

00:41:13.128 --> 00:41:20.046
today since 90 since 98 thereabouts,
we're engaged in what they call,

00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:25.467
monitoring, monitoring trips now. So
we still are building up our record

00:41:25.500 --> 00:41:30.896
to each year there's a river trip and
every year I think um Mike Yates

00:41:30.929 --> 00:41:36.256
just told me he just got off the
river. That was our Hopi trip. Yeah. Do

00:41:36.289 --> 00:41:40.227
you miss going down the river? Yeah, I
miss going, I've gone down there

00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:47.486
about maybe out of 30 years, about uh
11 times because I maybe even less

00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:52.195
because I, I just have that respect
for the Kenya, but I'm the leader too

00:41:52.228 --> 00:41:58.756
, you know, and Mike kind of his
desires that I should be on the trip. But

00:41:58.789 --> 00:42:05.396
, you know, here I said, II, I, you
shouldn't be doing that many times.

00:42:05.429 --> 00:42:13.429
But so yeah, so, so later other tribes
joined us, other tribes joined. Do

00:42:15.269 --> 00:42:22.006
you remember who the next, the second
one was? I think it was the sun

00:42:22.039 --> 00:42:30.039
and then the Navajos came in, all the
pies and pilots came in and, and uh

00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:38.017
II, I don't know. I said we have uh I,

00:42:38.050 --> 00:42:44.307
I think that I guess personally
concerns me, you know, because our Hopi

00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:52.340
trips are very, very, I think,
culturally respectful from day one. I said

00:42:52.628 --> 00:42:57.695
no alcohol on our trip, no alcohol
period.

00:42:57.728 --> 00:43:04.827
And when our first uh trip with Jan, I
remember our boatman took alcohol,

00:43:04.860 --> 00:43:12.860
you know, and, and, and uh we advised
him that our trips are non alcoholic.

00:43:13.458 --> 00:43:20.606
So over time, our reputation grew that
we knew so much about the history

00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:25.956
of the Grand Canyon. Culturally, the
archaeological sites, the petroglyphs

00:43:25.989 --> 00:43:31.296
were interpreting left and right down
there. Our values in terms of the

00:43:31.329 --> 00:43:38.977
erosion of the effects of erosion on
burials. What that causes us to have

00:43:39.010 --> 00:43:41.517
to now

00:43:41.550 --> 00:43:48.626
rebury only a partial of a remain,
right? Those were emotional. So the

00:43:48.659 --> 00:43:54.276
boat men of course, were learning and
the Hopi trip just grew and

00:43:54.309 --> 00:44:02.017
everybody wanted to be on the Hopi
trips and every one of those trips, the

00:44:02.050 --> 00:44:07.776
boatman later vowed that they would
not be taking alcohol on it. So since

00:44:07.809 --> 00:44:14.405
then, our trips have been non alcohol
and I think the tribe's reputation

00:44:14.438 --> 00:44:19.626
on the river is there, you know,
whereas through today and I still

00:44:19.659 --> 00:44:24.896
complain to the other tribes, the
Sunni still take alcohol, Navas is a big

00:44:24.929 --> 00:44:30.816
fishing trip for them. Paiutes, take
alcohol while of pies take alcohol. I

00:44:30.849 --> 00:44:35.396
told him one time you guys just need
to stop.

00:44:35.429 --> 00:44:40.385
You guys keep telling everybody that
you, you have respect for the canyon

00:44:40.418 --> 00:44:45.876
at least stop that. I mean, that's
just kind of my personal thing, but

00:44:45.909 --> 00:44:51.206
that's because you know how much I
think we value the canyon. It's kind of

00:44:51.239 --> 00:44:57.037
ironic too because of course all the
commercial trips take that and

00:44:57.070 --> 00:45:02.655
there's a lot of occasions um because
we take our ceremonial pipes in our

00:45:02.688 --> 00:45:08.327
native tobacco. So at the end of the
day,

00:45:08.360 --> 00:45:14.186
at the end of the day after we uh
pitch camp, then the hope is gathered in

00:45:14.219 --> 00:45:18.405
a circle and we pass the pipe

00:45:18.438 --> 00:45:23.606
give thanks for a nice day and a good
day. You know, thank you for

00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:29.796
everything. There's, there's many
times where the Hopi camp is right. It's

00:45:29.829 --> 00:45:34.925
right next to a commercial camp where
the Hopi are meditating and these

00:45:34.958 --> 00:45:39.066
guys are drinking and laughing over
here and the Hopi are trying to

00:45:39.099 --> 00:45:42.166
meditate.

00:45:42.199 --> 00:45:47.345
It's like that throughout the river.
And um I'm quite a contrast. Yeah.

00:45:47.378 --> 00:45:55.378
And, and so it, so it, it's uh yeah,
it's, it's, it's been a good

00:45:55.398 --> 00:46:03.398
experience for me to engage in the,
the the the the the river trips. Um OK.

00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:13.106
And then later, now these monitoring
chips that we have now and to be

00:46:13.139 --> 00:46:15.595
able to

00:46:15.628 --> 00:46:22.227
be a part of getting new people to go
down there and to, to so that they

00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:29.006
can also begin to uh get another view
of the Grand Canyon which I like

00:46:29.039 --> 00:46:35.827
like I did. And um you mentioned Dave
Wagner being very supportive and,

00:46:35.860 --> 00:46:41.146
and helpful. I wonder if you can talk
just a little bit about um how as

00:46:41.179 --> 00:46:48.936
leadership of the Adaptive Management
Program evolved over time, how your

00:46:48.969 --> 00:46:54.166
personal relationship with other
members of the AM wig and the Hopi tribes

00:46:54.199 --> 00:46:58.776
larger relationship with the whole
Adaptive Management program? How that

00:46:58.809 --> 00:47:03.717
changed over time? Were there phases
where things were really cooper and

00:47:03.750 --> 00:47:08.836
then other phases when not so much as
how, how did it evolve? Well, after

00:47:08.869 --> 00:47:14.095
, you know, uh initially was, of
course, uh

00:47:14.128 --> 00:47:20.896
was the um uh members as cooperating
agencies, you know, that was, that

00:47:20.929 --> 00:47:25.905
was the first cohort of uh people
coming together, you know, throughout

00:47:25.938 --> 00:47:33.865
the uh until the record of decision
came about. So um there were already

00:47:33.898 --> 00:47:41.898
now uh developing a list of
stakeholders, it grew and, and so I went

00:47:42.789 --> 00:47:48.816
through that and Mike became the uh my
alternate as a voting member, Mike

00:47:48.849 --> 00:47:56.849
Yates. Well, Kurt, initially and then
more recently uh um uh Mike and um

00:47:58.688 --> 00:48:05.095
I think the adaptive um I mean, the,
the, the corporate agency uh group I

00:48:05.128 --> 00:48:13.128
think was um uh it was pretty uh I
think routine, every, everyone,

00:48:13.659 --> 00:48:19.126
everyone, those stakeholders had a
different kind of interest in it, you

00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:27.159
know, and, and, and, and, and um uh
there was a AAA lot of emphasis on

00:48:27.809 --> 00:48:33.727
biological resources, particularly the
Humpback chop.

00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:39.365
OK. So um

00:48:39.398 --> 00:48:45.655
Humpback job budget even through today
take more take is giving a lot of

00:48:45.688 --> 00:48:52.316
more money than the tribes together.
That's how this, this disport of the

00:48:52.349 --> 00:48:57.936
budgets were. And I learned that fast,
especially once it got into this

00:48:57.969 --> 00:49:05.537
whole process of fighting for money,
your university was getting millions

00:49:05.570 --> 00:49:09.865
of dollars to pump up phd S

00:49:09.898 --> 00:49:14.997
and when you look at the pie chart,
we're buried into recreation, little

00:49:15.030 --> 00:49:17.095
slice

00:49:17.128 --> 00:49:20.086
still like that.

00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:25.836
And then when in, uh and then when, so
we were fighting for budgets to

00:49:25.869 --> 00:49:31.776
once we got into the, the monitoring
and the adaptive management work

00:49:31.809 --> 00:49:36.916
group, that's where, you know, again,
budgets came around all the time and

00:49:36.949 --> 00:49:42.796
people were still just to, just to
find their money.

00:49:42.829 --> 00:49:50.626
And that became a challenge to all the
tribes. But we were able to form a

00:49:50.659 --> 00:49:57.925
block of votes between the four or
five tribes and then the interior

00:49:57.958 --> 00:50:04.006
agencies that, that's how it was set
up. So if the tribes made a motion on

00:50:04.039 --> 00:50:09.206
their, on their whatever they wanted
to put before the whole group, when

00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:12.646
it came to a vote, then those interior
people would vote for the tribe.

00:50:12.679 --> 00:50:20.679
That's how the politics were working
out until, um, until the back, uh,

00:50:21.079 --> 00:50:27.905
until the solicitor solicitor said
that they couldn't do that anymore. So

00:50:27.938 --> 00:50:34.385
we lost about four or five agencies
for blocking well, under an castle and

00:50:34.418 --> 00:50:40.615
castle when the interior agency
stopped voting. Right? Uh Yeah, that's

00:50:40.648 --> 00:50:45.256
when they stopped and they took those
votes away from, from us. So now we

00:50:45.289 --> 00:50:53.289
were again in a minority. Uh huh. She
still true today. And, um, so

00:50:54.739 --> 00:51:01.717
yeah, so did the tribes often vote as
a block? Do they? Do you all talk to

00:51:01.750 --> 00:51:07.316
each other and coordinate over the
last 10 years prior to the M week

00:51:07.349 --> 00:51:12.921
meetings? We have a, a day before
where the tribal caucus. So, of course,

00:51:12.954 --> 00:51:17.602
by that time, we have the full
package. So we have an idea what's going to

00:51:17.635 --> 00:51:22.771
be in store for us and what some of
the action items, if any are going to

00:51:22.804 --> 00:51:28.905
be important to us. And, but the
tribal discussion is going to be. And I

00:51:28.938 --> 00:51:33.217
tell you

00:51:33.250 --> 00:51:41.250
this is not being, um, sort of, uh,

00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:45.256
I don't know how you would put it

00:51:45.289 --> 00:51:50.247
when it came to something like a
sudden kind of turn of events where a

00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:56.126
discussion started and we start, the
whole group started talking.

00:51:56.159 --> 00:52:03.477
Almost all the tribes would look at me
and said, Lee, what do you think?

00:52:03.510 --> 00:52:08.727
You know, I was going through that and
the action item and the motions and

00:52:08.760 --> 00:52:14.115
amendments to the motions, all of the
thing that goes on and then the, the

00:52:14.148 --> 00:52:19.166
, the, the subject it had. What do you
think, Lee? And I'm trying to

00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:24.675
scratch my head and then I give it my
best shot, you know. So in that way

00:52:24.708 --> 00:52:30.925
, I was sort of uh still kind of
leading the group in discussions too. And

00:52:30.958 --> 00:52:38.296
I'm, I'm, I'm glad for my colleagues,
you know, uh Charlie Bullets from p

00:52:38.329 --> 00:52:46.329
uh Tim be gay from Navajo. Um There
were several councilman from Zuni uh

00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:55.119
that they, they get appointed every
two years, I think to am wick um

00:52:55.489 --> 00:53:01.666
Bounder from Navajo initially too as
well. Uh Which, what was the name of

00:53:01.699 --> 00:53:08.396
the first Navajo you mentioned, Tim
Tim Tim.

00:53:08.429 --> 00:53:13.456
He was usually the one that was uh
usually present. Donner came in,

00:53:13.489 --> 00:53:18.615
occasionally, he was their director.
How do you spell his name? Ellen

00:53:18.648 --> 00:53:24.236
Donner down? Er,

00:53:24.269 --> 00:53:28.967
and he is also a Navajo rat. Yeah, he
was the tribal historic preservation

00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:35.247
officer and Tim Bega was their
cultural specialist.

00:53:35.280 --> 00:53:41.115
And uh you said Charlie Bullets, how
do you spell his last name? Bull ETS

00:53:41.148 --> 00:53:43.506
ETS.

00:53:43.539 --> 00:53:48.787
And uh he represented one of one or
the whole collection of Paiute. He, no

00:53:48.820 --> 00:53:55.997
, he uh he, he represented the
Consortium of Paiutes.

00:53:56.030 --> 00:54:02.217
And then um these were early
participants. These were, well, this was on

00:54:02.250 --> 00:54:08.896
the people that I work with early on.
Uh Tim is still engaged, Tim be gay.

00:54:08.929 --> 00:54:14.256
Uh Now they have a new director called
Richard Begat. So um they're

00:54:14.289 --> 00:54:20.916
pretty nice guys who did you work
with, with the Zuni? It was Octavia uh

00:54:20.949 --> 00:54:23.376
Co2,

00:54:23.409 --> 00:54:25.717
Octavius

00:54:25.750 --> 00:54:28.186
Seo

00:54:28.219 --> 00:54:32.345
Te

00:54:32.378 --> 00:54:35.316
Otewa,

00:54:35.349 --> 00:54:43.349
I think cot one cot one Zuni. Yeah.
And uh who did you work with, with uh

00:54:43.829 --> 00:54:51.256
wallaby trying with uh Marita Jack
Saxon? Yeah. She was a very strong

00:54:51.289 --> 00:54:56.166
advocate too. She was uh articulate.
She's on our list to do soon. Yeah.

00:54:56.199 --> 00:55:04.199
She was, she was a very strong
advocate of, of uh our collective um

00:55:04.639 --> 00:55:06.635
involvement.

00:55:06.668 --> 00:55:11.396
It's strange we hear from uh we've
heard from other people too besides you

00:55:11.429 --> 00:55:18.106
that the Havasupai tribe was not often
actually and because they were

00:55:18.139 --> 00:55:25.057
willing to participate in and one of
the chairman went down there and I uh

00:55:25.090 --> 00:55:33.090
I pre I presented uh at least um some
guidance to them trying to encourage

00:55:33.090 --> 00:55:39.327
them that they should be
participating, but they never did, they never did.

00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:43.345
Which is unfortunate, I think because,
you know, of course the canyon

00:55:43.378 --> 00:55:49.945
goes right into the canyon. The big
canyon. Yeah.

00:55:49.978 --> 00:55:56.807
Why, um can I ask you why you thought
it would be important to get as many

00:55:56.840 --> 00:56:00.905
tribes are presented as possible?

00:56:00.938 --> 00:56:05.865
Well, like I said, I learned quickly
that

00:56:05.898 --> 00:56:12.445
once in particular Diam, we got
organized and it was seated. Um it was

00:56:12.478 --> 00:56:18.445
plain and simple politics for, in, in,
in, for a number of reasons. You

00:56:18.478 --> 00:56:23.227
know, when I mentioned, of course,
this budget and then of course, um some

00:56:23.260 --> 00:56:31.260
of the debate on, on different um for
example, um water releases, for

00:56:31.489 --> 00:56:35.977
example, and the timing of those
releases, I think uh I think we had our

00:56:36.010 --> 00:56:38.006
Caucasus.

00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:43.807
Uh fortunately, the, the Hopi tribe
had a hydrologist too, we had our own

00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:51.840
hydrologist. So he was helping us from
the technical side, see. Um

00:56:52.898 --> 00:56:59.385
So we were able to, to uh kind of
round table some of these uh issues and

00:56:59.418 --> 00:57:06.635
then go in to see what we can do. Um
And then the, the big one was the uh

00:57:06.668 --> 00:57:14.517
the, the, the electric electrocution
of those uh uh uh tr uh that was a

00:57:14.550 --> 00:57:20.767
big controversy initially to, to
hoping because we, we were the only ones

00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:27.436
that commented on that proposal. So
our record stands that one, the

00:57:27.469 --> 00:57:34.595
initial uh uh area that they were
gonna uh zap those trout by the

00:57:34.628 --> 00:57:41.095
thousands was right at the confluence,
you know, a sacred site, a very

00:57:41.128 --> 00:57:47.276
sacred site to us. You know, and it,
it encompasses this kind of concept

00:57:47.309 --> 00:57:52.026
of the spiritual domain. So

00:57:52.059 --> 00:57:58.376
well, it's our finality. As I told
you, it was also the beginning of our

00:57:58.409 --> 00:58:06.115
spiritual life. I one day hope to
become a cloud person to visit all of

00:58:06.148 --> 00:58:08.296
you people.

00:58:08.329 --> 00:58:15.345
That's how we believe. So it's the
beginning of life for us. So our I said

00:58:15.378 --> 00:58:21.066
to Kurt, you know how it best explain
it is that if they kill all these

00:58:21.099 --> 00:58:23.816
fish,

00:58:23.849 --> 00:58:26.747
they're taking

00:58:26.780 --> 00:58:32.635
life away from living creatures and
Hopi when they do their prayer,

00:58:32.668 --> 00:58:38.885
feathers and prayer offerings. It's
for the perpetuation of life. It's not

00:58:38.918 --> 00:58:43.356
for the end of life. No.

00:58:43.389 --> 00:58:47.046
So even though that proposal had a
purpose because the effect on the

00:58:47.079 --> 00:58:54.756
Humpback chub and the overpopulation,
you know, it just didn't sit well if

00:58:54.789 --> 00:59:01.135
they dare do that, it's gonna create
this aura of death. That was our

00:59:01.168 --> 00:59:06.385
argument and we got the beer
commission here.

00:59:06.418 --> 00:59:14.418
So they moved, they moved uh that area
to someplace for the up the river.

00:59:16.628 --> 00:59:21.057
See, these are some of the things that
we were we were engaging in too.

00:59:21.090 --> 00:59:28.767
Yeah. Did you um about when did this
tribal caucus begin to form? Was it

00:59:28.800 --> 00:59:33.066
after the record of decision or did it
start forming before that? No. II,

00:59:33.099 --> 00:59:40.706
I think the actual caucus itself began
to form a after MW was established

00:59:40.739 --> 00:59:45.615
prior to that with the research part
of it, we were pretty independent and

00:59:45.648 --> 00:59:51.046
we would as cooperating agency meet.
But we didn't have really, I really

00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:56.675
have a quote, a united front so to
speak. We would talk during lunch and

00:59:56.708 --> 01:00:02.405
stuff like that. But, but it was
right, right after an AMW that we, we, uh

01:00:02.438 --> 01:00:09.727
, dedicate ourselves to having this
caucus prior to the meetings. And is

01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:15.057
that still functioning today? Is there
still a caucus day before the

01:00:15.090 --> 01:00:18.445
regular meetings?

01:00:18.478 --> 01:00:23.115
And if you had more uh tribal
representatives, you would have a more

01:00:23.148 --> 01:00:28.066
powerful caucus. You, but you didn't,
was there any problem with, you know

01:00:28.099 --> 01:00:31.706
, you mentioned funding problems a
couple of times many other people that

01:00:31.739 --> 01:00:35.557
we talked to, this is a really, you
can't get anything done if you don't

01:00:35.590 --> 01:00:41.057
have financing to get it done. And
there's a limited pie. Was there ever

01:00:41.090 --> 01:00:46.155
any thought that more tribal
participants would mean less money for each

01:00:46.188 --> 01:00:49.666
of the tribes? Or was there a set
amount of money that everybody,

01:00:49.699 --> 01:00:54.307
regardless, it was a set of money that
was eventually given to each tribe

01:00:54.340 --> 01:01:00.236
, respective tribes?

01:01:00.269 --> 01:01:08.269
Although the Hopi tribe got funded um
for some specific proposals, some

01:01:09.478 --> 01:01:14.425
research, research proposals. I don't
know if other tribes did, but we got

01:01:14.458 --> 01:01:20.445
additional money. Uh It was, it was
coming out of uh something called the

01:01:20.478 --> 01:01:26.537
Terrestrial Funding program and, and
for biological research for

01:01:26.570 --> 01:01:32.345
biological research because we were
beginning to document, um, everything

01:01:32.378 --> 01:01:37.546
down there. Not just the plants, but,
but because everything that we have

01:01:37.579 --> 01:01:44.796
around here has some cultural value.
Uh, the, the, the, the water life and

01:01:44.829 --> 01:01:52.336
of course, the fish, the, the, the
frogs, the snakes, um, the birds, even

01:01:52.369 --> 01:01:58.276
the wildlife up there. When elder said
that when we saw a rattlesnake

01:01:58.309 --> 01:02:03.307
around there, he made a very
interesting comment, you know, during the,

01:02:03.340 --> 01:02:08.376
the fall towards the winter, when it
gets cold, they hibernate, they're

01:02:08.409 --> 01:02:11.936
gonna go into the den somewhere.

01:02:11.969 --> 01:02:17.166
Isn't the water gonna suffocate them
when they go up,

01:02:17.199 --> 01:02:21.675
you know, no one really thought about
that. And that's right because we

01:02:21.708 --> 01:02:26.695
still have the snake dance today. It's
an ancient ancient ceremony that

01:02:26.728 --> 01:02:32.017
was just performed three weeks ago
again. So the value on our reptilian

01:02:32.050 --> 01:02:38.195
relatives we call them because once we
go through that snake ceremony,

01:02:38.228 --> 01:02:43.115
they present it back to the ground
after they're captured and they become

01:02:43.148 --> 01:02:48.807
, become our messengers, our prayers.
So there's no value in this. Elder

01:02:48.840 --> 01:02:55.126
said, doesn't that happen to the
snakes when the water goes up and floods

01:02:55.159 --> 01:02:59.106
?

01:02:59.139 --> 01:03:05.695
You know, and that was something I
never thought of so engaged in that we

01:03:05.728 --> 01:03:13.728
talked about the, the bird life up
there. Um, and, and, and then the, um,

01:03:15.699 --> 01:03:20.706
like I said, it's just an amazing
ecosystem you wouldn't imagine until you

01:03:20.739 --> 01:03:24.856
go down there and there's creeks
coming in from the top somewhere from,

01:03:24.889 --> 01:03:30.327
from different aquifers, just some
white, some small, but they're coming

01:03:30.360 --> 01:03:36.776
into the canyon, you know, and if you,
if you go up in some of those

01:03:36.809 --> 01:03:44.809
creeks, it is just rich in vegetation.
Just, oh, man, you know, all kind

01:03:45.250 --> 01:03:48.086
of plans an oasis

01:03:48.119 --> 01:03:53.077
and you will never guess that that was
in the candy, right? So, yeah, we,

01:03:53.110 --> 01:03:59.276
so we began to get um, uh, uh,
information and uh uh, and research into

01:03:59.309 --> 01:04:07.309
all kinds of, of uh biological
resources, you know. So, yeah. Um so we got

01:04:07.780 --> 01:04:15.780
money to do that uh hard too. So today
we have a handbook that we got uh

01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:20.925
uh developed of all of the biological,

01:04:20.958 --> 01:04:26.017
the uh in particular, the biological
and uh and the uh cultural resources

01:04:26.050 --> 01:04:31.396
in a handbook like that. And that's
given to all of our river participants

01:04:31.429 --> 01:04:35.517
to read prior to going down there to
look what the order has been

01:04:35.550 --> 01:04:41.845
documented, you know, and they're
doing that. So that, that was a product

01:04:41.878 --> 01:04:47.807
of it and that product is now also
available into the school system. Yeah

01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:55.796
, where students are learning from
that handbook too. Yeah.

01:04:55.829 --> 01:05:02.425
Can you talk a little bit about um how
uh you think the uh caucus, the

01:05:02.458 --> 01:05:08.227
tribal caucus related to the rest of
the members and stakeholders of Ham

01:05:08.260 --> 01:05:14.276
wig and how uh what that relationship
was like? Uh Was it real cooper? Was

01:05:14.309 --> 01:05:22.095
it tense? Did uh did it change over
time? All thing though, or that many?

01:05:22.128 --> 01:05:30.128
Really? Controversial issues that with
the tribe um had to argue um for

01:05:30.329 --> 01:05:37.155
the merits of their position. I, I
think, I think um as best as I know,

01:05:37.188 --> 01:05:41.537
and remember, I think all of the MW
membership were highly professional,

01:05:41.570 --> 01:05:46.396
very, very professional and very
courteous to each other. And the tribe

01:05:46.429 --> 01:05:51.497
showed that respect in return too. So
I don't think it was contentious.

01:05:51.530 --> 01:05:57.945
They just knew that we now had a
voting block and I think there was um

01:05:57.978 --> 01:06:04.675
slowly some recognition that our part
participation was there to stay. So

01:06:04.708 --> 01:06:09.967
I think they had to accept that. So
III I think when, when we did our

01:06:10.000 --> 01:06:17.796
presentations uh and hope he did their
presentations too, you know, uh for

01:06:17.829 --> 01:06:21.206
example, um

01:06:21.239 --> 01:06:27.385
we need powerpoints initially and
still do about why we chose to

01:06:27.418 --> 01:06:35.418
participate. What the values of the
Kenyon uh is to the hope is and how

01:06:35.449 --> 01:06:40.916
the dam operations affected that we
outlined that, you know, every year

01:06:40.949 --> 01:06:45.776
and remind the people that, that, that
that's the Hopi reason why we're

01:06:45.809 --> 01:06:51.497
here. We do that too. So me and Mike
were doing powerpoint presentations.

01:06:51.530 --> 01:06:57.146
Um and then other tribes came in too
and they would begin to have slots

01:06:57.179 --> 01:07:01.916
within the agenda. So they would
provide us those opportunity to do that

01:07:01.949 --> 01:07:06.517
too. And of course, during the
discussions, we would, if we had any kind

01:07:06.550 --> 01:07:12.276
of uh comments or, or, or questions,
we would ask those questions too. So

01:07:12.309 --> 01:07:18.626
I think the dialogue was basically
good. I think. Iiii, I got to know a

01:07:18.659 --> 01:07:23.787
lot of people, you know, some became
my friends, you know, and, uh,

01:07:23.820 --> 01:07:31.537
certainly, you know, the, the, um,
the, the non um government

01:07:31.570 --> 01:07:37.655
organizations, the, the River Guides,
for example, uh, they became uh

01:07:37.688 --> 01:07:42.276
allies with the tribes, you know, the
Sierra. I don't know if the Sierra

01:07:42.309 --> 01:07:47.916
Club was in there but other, other,
uh, organizations, Grand Canyon Trust

01:07:47.949 --> 01:07:51.986
of, they, they, you know, they were
certain times they voted for the

01:07:52.019 --> 01:07:56.747
tribes too. So things like that, but
it wasn't really political, political

01:07:56.780 --> 01:08:03.885
, but they knew our presence was
there. Yeah, that's good. And um I know

01:08:03.918 --> 01:08:09.146
that uh there was some resistance
early on very early in the program. Um

01:08:09.179 --> 01:08:15.345
uh we keep hearing from interviewees
that the uh the uh water and

01:08:15.378 --> 01:08:21.076
hydropower interests like the Bureau
of reclamation and wa a really

01:08:21.109 --> 01:08:26.675
resisted making significant
adjustments to the management of the dam to

01:08:26.708 --> 01:08:31.796
accommodate biological and cultural
issues. Did you experience any of that

01:08:31.829 --> 01:08:36.967
in the years that you were involved?
Were there caucuses of the, say, the

01:08:37.000 --> 01:08:42.567
hydropower and water interest? Yeah.
But once you got to know all the

01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:46.506
agents is represented, I mean, you
know, that you had restrictive caucuses

01:08:46.539 --> 01:08:54.075
, the power interests were usually on
one end of the table and the tribes

01:08:54.108 --> 01:08:58.986
would be here and the NGO S would be
here like that, you know, and the

01:08:59.019 --> 01:09:05.045
Feds would be one. Yeah. And, and
sometimes, yeah, they, they were very,

01:09:05.078 --> 01:09:11.737
very strong in their opinions. And I
told the chairman, you know,

01:09:11.770 --> 01:09:19.770
one of the state representations on
Hewick are attorneys, lawyers.

01:09:19.878 --> 01:09:26.366
That's who we battle with. You know,
I'm not an attorney, but they are,

01:09:26.399 --> 01:09:31.345
and they argue that they argue that
and, and so that's sort of the chasm

01:09:31.378 --> 01:09:36.885
that I think existed in some ways
between the power interest, you know,

01:09:36.918 --> 01:09:44.156
iiii I, it was really, really obvious,
but I think overall, I think the

01:09:44.189 --> 01:09:51.576
way they, um I think discussed matters
in representing their strong views

01:09:51.609 --> 01:09:54.246
was still respectful.

01:09:54.279 --> 01:10:01.515
So you feel the structure of the Ham
wig was set up in such a way that

01:10:01.548 --> 01:10:07.206
even though there were some caucuses
and there were some inequities in

01:10:07.239 --> 01:10:12.996
power dynamics that it was still a
structured process that was fair and

01:10:13.029 --> 01:10:19.237
everybody got a chance to speak and
everybody listened, you know, I think

01:10:19.270 --> 01:10:26.805
respectfully to each other. Gosh.
Iiii, I forgot her name but they hired,

01:10:26.838 --> 01:10:33.226
um Mary Mary Orton and, and,

01:10:33.259 --> 01:10:40.135
and she was good. I, I tell you, I
have the highest respect for her. And

01:10:40.168 --> 01:10:45.586
when I, when they somehow didn't renew
her contract, I was the only one

01:10:45.619 --> 01:10:52.067
that objected to her and they now got
her back but she was good. She had,

01:10:52.100 --> 01:10:58.456
yeah, I was the only one from the m
wig that objected to her contract.

01:10:58.489 --> 01:11:03.277
But, you know, but she's back. But I
think she was the one who keep kept

01:11:03.310 --> 01:11:09.357
and we gonna even kill. She was very,
very highly, um proficient in, in,

01:11:09.390 --> 01:11:16.286
in her role in moderating the
discussion and the, the technical help she

01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:21.555
has in terms of motions and they would
flash it on the screen, get it

01:11:21.588 --> 01:11:27.357
edited right there and debate it and
wow, she had a big brain to remember

01:11:27.390 --> 01:11:31.246
all the discussions. Remember you said
this thing? This is that what you

01:11:31.279 --> 01:11:38.336
meant, you know. Yeah, Mary Orn was
her name and III, I um went back uh

01:11:38.369 --> 01:11:43.987
back and forth after she wasn't
working anymore. And I told her I would

01:11:44.020 --> 01:11:49.166
try to get her back on which which
which we did. She told us when we

01:11:49.199 --> 01:11:53.987
interviewed her, she told us about a
very important river trip in which uh

01:11:54.020 --> 01:11:59.866
uh a key group of stakeholders went
and kind of hammered out uh a new way

01:11:59.899 --> 01:12:05.055
of, of thinking about and working
together. Were you on that river trip?

01:12:05.088 --> 01:12:10.345
That's what I'm saying, man, Kurt,
we're on the river trip, I believe. But

01:12:10.378 --> 01:12:16.135
see, see that was uh right after the
record of decisions when the feds

01:12:16.168 --> 01:12:22.296
were now also getting these river
trips uh together for the stakeholders.

01:12:22.329 --> 01:12:28.996
See, but early on when we were writing
our research pro pro proposal,

01:12:29.029 --> 01:12:34.817
the Hopi proposal was to, to have an
integrated approach to for the 33

01:12:34.850 --> 01:12:39.425
sciences. And um

01:12:39.458 --> 01:12:47.458
and um so we were talking with Dave
Wagner about the future of the dam

01:12:48.628 --> 01:12:54.116
after the record of decision already.
So between the three of us, we began

01:12:54.149 --> 01:12:59.487
to try to formulate how is this gonna
work? You know, because we are now

01:12:59.520 --> 01:13:06.116
realizing that there was a enormity of
stakeholders, right? And, and we

01:13:06.149 --> 01:13:12.376
would have now science to guide us,
right? And science would still be

01:13:12.409 --> 01:13:20.067
ongoing. So the whole management had
to adapt to those circumstances. Me,

01:13:20.100 --> 01:13:25.217
Kurt and Dave Wagner were the ones
that formulated that and that's what we

01:13:25.250 --> 01:13:30.996
brought in to some of the first
cooperating agency meetings where that

01:13:31.029 --> 01:13:37.635
term and concept later became formal
starts again in the early 19 nineties.

01:13:37.668 --> 01:13:42.817
Well, we didn't talk about that early
on and then now to implement it

01:13:42.850 --> 01:13:50.107
through M week to establish M week,
you know. Yeah, we, we talked about it

01:13:50.140 --> 01:13:58.006
a lot and, and I think Dave uh also
needs to be credit in giving us a

01:13:58.039 --> 01:14:04.476
sense of that concept too. So looking
um long term at the program in your

01:14:04.509 --> 01:14:09.876
long decades of experience with it. Do
you think that um it's been largely

01:14:09.909 --> 01:14:17.909
successful? And uh how so?

01:14:18.250 --> 01:14:26.250
Well, II, I think um with the level of
effort we did, I think um I think

01:14:27.000 --> 01:14:35.000
it's highly commendable. I think the
support we have internally the um the

01:14:35.250 --> 01:14:42.376
the religious community coming in to
give us that direction and

01:14:42.409 --> 01:14:49.226
individuals within the bureau of
reclamation that were very uh uh good

01:14:49.259 --> 01:14:55.696
people to work with, you know, and,
and do you remember any specific

01:14:55.729 --> 01:14:59.756
people in the Bureau of reclamation
that you felt were good to work with.

01:14:59.789 --> 01:15:02.296
Um,

01:15:02.329 --> 01:15:08.015
see, some have gone already too back
then. And then

01:15:08.048 --> 01:15:12.055
do you remember Dave Garrett? Dave
Garrett was one of them too. Yeah, we

01:15:12.088 --> 01:15:17.015
interviewed him and he expressed a lot
of, uh, support and concern for

01:15:17.048 --> 01:15:21.897
getting more robust tribal uh
participation. He was, uh, he was one that

01:15:21.930 --> 01:15:27.006
supported us a lot and we actually
would invite him to our tribal caucuses

01:15:27.039 --> 01:15:34.696
too. And sometimes, um, we would ask
the secretary to come to on our

01:15:34.729 --> 01:15:38.706
tribal caucuses. So they would sit in
and have lunch with us and we would

01:15:38.739 --> 01:15:42.916
round table these things. So it's a
matter of courtesy to them. You mean

01:15:42.949 --> 01:15:46.906
the Secretary of the Interior Design

01:15:46.939 --> 01:15:51.467
and Castle would sit in with us and
have lunch with us. Yeah. So, so I

01:15:51.500 --> 01:15:57.885
think they appreciated that because
there was now some, some, um some uh

01:15:57.918 --> 01:16:02.756
some discussions from, from the
respective tribes that she would hear

01:16:02.789 --> 01:16:10.277
direct from 1 to 12. And so then they
would, after the caucuses then on a

01:16:10.310 --> 01:16:15.555
very specific issue, then they would
designate someone to articulate that

01:16:15.588 --> 01:16:19.256
during, during that discussion that
that's how we work the regular a

01:16:19.289 --> 01:16:26.135
meeting like that and they were privy
to that. So Garrett was one of them.

01:16:26.168 --> 01:16:34.168
Yeah. So I think tho those kind of
support, I think helped a lot. Um I uh

01:16:34.399 --> 01:16:41.357
advocated for particular for more
money to, to get into the uh natural

01:16:41.390 --> 01:16:47.976
science component of it. But I wasn't
successful in doing that. I wanted

01:16:48.009 --> 01:16:55.607
to get um uh some of our younger
people uh who were uh over at N EU in um

01:16:55.640 --> 01:17:00.777
in geology, for example, to actually
come in and get uh funded or a

01:17:00.810 --> 01:17:07.906
program funded at N EU to, to, to, to
support those students. But I never

01:17:07.939 --> 01:17:15.456
was able to find justification to do
that. We have an emou with the U the

01:17:15.489 --> 01:17:23.175
Otal preservation office and that's
meant to um facilitate that. But uh we

01:17:23.208 --> 01:17:28.107
just couldn't break loose the money
and we still have some students in

01:17:28.140 --> 01:17:32.326
there. I mean, it's still going on and
I wish we could get money to get a

01:17:32.359 --> 01:17:36.826
strong, you know, science, Natural
Resource, Natural Science Program over

01:17:36.859 --> 01:17:41.946
at N EU. And that would be one of my
recommendations, you know, is that

01:17:41.979 --> 01:17:49.416
the tribes need support to uh to offer
scholarships and internships, you

01:17:49.449 --> 01:17:54.845
know, uh to continue to support them
through their masters and even into

01:17:54.878 --> 01:18:01.845
the doctoral programs, you know, other
than um some struggles with

01:18:01.878 --> 01:18:05.406
adequate funding to support, you know,
research and participation. Are

01:18:05.439 --> 01:18:11.046
there any other um disappointments or
what you consider to be limitations

01:18:11.079 --> 01:18:18.656
or flaws in the program as it's
developed over time?

01:18:18.689 --> 01:18:20.737
Well,

01:18:20.770 --> 01:18:26.076
it's adaptive management. So I suppose
you're gonna have changes

01:18:26.109 --> 01:18:33.586
throughout the implementation of the
record of decision. And um uh I think

01:18:33.619 --> 01:18:40.015
resources are always gonna be a, a
problem. Um I think the power interests

01:18:40.048 --> 01:18:45.326
are still gonna present their views on
everything. They are a major

01:18:45.359 --> 01:18:50.996
stakeholder. Um

01:18:51.029 --> 01:18:58.217
But I think, I think the way it
started,

01:18:58.250 --> 01:19:02.805
even from the cooperating agency
standpoint, because a lot of us floated

01:19:02.838 --> 01:19:10.305
into the MW, a lot of us did was that
at that level of cooperating agency

01:19:10.338 --> 01:19:15.777
, I think everything

01:19:15.810 --> 01:19:22.906
was formal but yet informal. All
right, it was, it was, it was uh

01:19:22.939 --> 01:19:27.746
different types of meeting that we
would engage in as cooperating agency

01:19:27.779 --> 01:19:32.196
because we were still heading towards
the record of decision. But you

01:19:32.229 --> 01:19:38.265
already had your compliment of, of, of
people now coming forward to be

01:19:38.298 --> 01:19:44.147
part of the cooperating agencies,
these agencies. So from that point on, I

01:19:44.180 --> 01:19:49.817
think that acquaintances that I had
early on with some of those same

01:19:49.850 --> 01:19:55.006
individuals, even people from WAP A,
we began to know each other, you know

01:19:55.039 --> 01:19:59.076
, every day, I mean, every meeting we
would say so call each other by our

01:19:59.109 --> 01:20:07.109
name, do high fives. And so I think
that in itself was a key moderator in

01:20:08.159 --> 01:20:16.107
, in how am wig later shaped itself to
continue to conduct business in

01:20:16.140 --> 01:20:22.027
that way. So I think that I think was
a good transition and some of us

01:20:22.060 --> 01:20:28.437
holdovers contributed to that. I think

01:20:28.470 --> 01:20:34.015
so. Um it sounds like you think the
program has uh substantial value and

01:20:34.048 --> 01:20:40.175
ought to be continued,

01:20:40.208 --> 01:20:45.586
I think. So, I think so, you know,
with the experimental water releases,

01:20:45.619 --> 01:20:50.925
for example, they're intermittent,
right? They're intermittent, the fact

01:20:50.958 --> 01:20:55.406
of the matter is, is that there's
still no sediment going downstream.

01:20:55.439 --> 01:20:59.937
That's, that's the reality. So, so the
the water releases are intermittent

01:20:59.970 --> 01:21:06.635
, that's meant to help, right? Um
These high flow releases, high flow

01:21:06.668 --> 01:21:11.897
releases. Yeah. So that's gonna be
ongoing and that, that is, that was

01:21:11.930 --> 01:21:17.666
part of Amway's decision eventually to
do those. See, so that's happening

01:21:17.699 --> 01:21:24.126
now. So I think over time it's gonna
take a long time before the whole

01:21:24.159 --> 01:21:30.095
ecosystem

01:21:30.128 --> 01:21:35.416
at least has some evidence of
recovery,

01:21:35.449 --> 01:21:42.476
it ain't gonna happen. But some over
time, you know, and that has to be

01:21:42.509 --> 01:21:47.777
still part of copious interest. So I
think from our part, it has to

01:21:47.810 --> 01:21:52.555
continue that monitoring has to
continue and whether wa a likes it or not

01:21:52.588 --> 01:21:57.866
, I think that has to happen.

01:21:57.899 --> 01:22:01.147
Yeah, the long term perspective,

01:22:01.180 --> 01:22:07.845
you can't learn a lot if you're only
looking at something for a few years

01:22:07.878 --> 01:22:11.366
or a decade. Um

01:22:11.399 --> 01:22:15.416
So that long term perspective and that
learning and relationship building

01:22:15.449 --> 01:22:19.076
you're saying is uh is really
valuable. And I think so and I've always

01:22:19.109 --> 01:22:25.866
tried to do that in my capacity as a
director, you know, uh rather than be

01:22:25.899 --> 01:22:30.406
an adversary. I uh I, I encourage
partnership and that's been my

01:22:30.439 --> 01:22:35.107
philosophy as a Hoy person and that's
how I try to represent the office

01:22:35.140 --> 01:22:38.336
here.

01:22:38.369 --> 01:22:44.726
Um You have kind of stepped down from
the really central role that you

01:22:44.759 --> 01:22:49.897
played for so many decades and others
are stepping in. So, um that's my

01:22:49.930 --> 01:22:56.027
next question is what advice do you
have for people who will be coming on

01:22:56.060 --> 01:23:01.067
to the AM wig in the coming years?
What advice would you give them about

01:23:01.100 --> 01:23:05.836
how to approach the task, how to think
about their role, how to prepare to

01:23:05.869 --> 01:23:11.527
be effective? Well, I'm still actually
a voting member of Am wig. Good. My

01:23:11.560 --> 01:23:14.916
,

01:23:14.949 --> 01:23:20.147
my term hasn't ended and the chairman
hasn't replaced me with anybody. So

01:23:20.180 --> 01:23:25.076
I'm technically still a member of Am
wig. And like I said, one of my staff

01:23:25.109 --> 01:23:33.109
is my successor and I think he's
academically. Um uh he's academically. Um

01:23:33.509 --> 01:23:38.265
um uh what do you call it? Um

01:23:38.298 --> 01:23:43.595
Found it. He's got, yeah, he's got a
master's in anthropology and it

01:23:43.628 --> 01:23:49.836
worked for me for about 12 years as an
anthropologist and as a researcher.

01:23:49.869 --> 01:23:56.345
So, um he's been attend, he attended
the, the last one over in Flagstaff

01:23:56.378 --> 01:24:02.866
uh with me. And so I said that this is
what happens here. A bunch of

01:24:02.899 --> 01:24:07.345
boring stuff.

01:24:07.378 --> 01:24:13.076
So you're mentoring it. Yeah. So tell
me, so this is what happens and

01:24:13.109 --> 01:24:18.527
these are the issues. So make sure
that you, when you get the packet, make

01:24:18.560 --> 01:24:24.737
sure you take a look at it and see
what is relevant to, to either Hopi or

01:24:24.770 --> 01:24:30.906
tribes and continue to communicate
with Mike Yates who by the way is also

01:24:30.939 --> 01:24:37.006
retiring. Yeah. End of this year too.
So he's been with me. Is he going on

01:24:37.039 --> 01:24:42.717
30 years this year too? Yeah. Yeah,
Kurt worked for me for about a dozen

01:24:42.750 --> 01:24:49.006
or maybe 15 years. Yeah. And now he's
working for the, yeah, we

01:24:49.039 --> 01:24:54.607
interviewed him about a month ago.
Yeah, he kept, he, he, he helped me get

01:24:54.640 --> 01:24:58.675
our archaeology program off the
ground. Uh Yeah. So we now have our full

01:24:58.708 --> 01:25:06.196
staff of archaeologists and
everything. Yeah. So, um, I think over time, I

01:25:06.229 --> 01:25:14.229
hope the, the Hopi tribes
participation doesn't, uh, um, one but continues

01:25:14.539 --> 01:25:20.326
to be as strong as it has been. And uh
I think Stewart will again, like

01:25:20.359 --> 01:25:27.317
it's doing um he's learning the ropes,
we'll learn the ropes on this whole

01:25:27.350 --> 01:25:30.857
a program called Am Wick.

01:25:30.890 --> 01:25:36.647
Uh What are your hopes for the future?
I mean, we've had almost 30 years

01:25:36.680 --> 01:25:42.967
of history with this program and
things related to water flows and

01:25:43.000 --> 01:25:48.027
fisheries and cultural resources have
been addressed. What, what issues

01:25:48.060 --> 01:25:52.536
aren't being addressed or what new
issues do you think are gonna come up

01:25:52.569 --> 01:26:00.569
that the Am wick will have to face in
the future?

01:26:08.270 --> 01:26:15.046
Oh, let me see. So, um

01:26:15.079 --> 01:26:19.425
so I think some of the um

01:26:19.458 --> 01:26:27.458
new changing facing our mic uh is
something that I was curious about um in

01:26:29.088 --> 01:26:37.088
terms of um you know, the, the, the,
the, the, the range of releases

01:26:38.529 --> 01:26:43.217
that's dictated by the record of
decision

01:26:43.250 --> 01:26:51.250
because the big pole is at 40 per 60%
capacity right now. Yes. You know,

01:26:51.899 --> 01:26:56.476
and, and you see it physically, you
see it right? The, the white lines.

01:26:56.509 --> 01:26:58.925
It's,

01:26:58.958 --> 01:27:06.536
you know, a lot of water. So I think
that that needs to be taking note of

01:27:06.569 --> 01:27:14.569
how, how does that affect who a, uh,
water releases, uh, you know, and

01:27:14.708 --> 01:27:20.226
would that require a supplemental eis
at some point if it continued to go

01:27:20.259 --> 01:27:27.345
down? Right. See, and we got, I was
looking at the data and we're

01:27:27.378 --> 01:27:33.366
technically in a 20 year drought and
this is huge and I know as a fy

01:27:33.399 --> 01:27:40.336
farmer, I know it, you know, and, and
so I think that's a new issue that I

01:27:40.369 --> 01:27:47.046
think hopefully can be addressed at
some point too or prepared for. Um,

01:27:47.079 --> 01:27:53.555
I think the control of trout is gonna
still be, uh, uh, population. So

01:27:53.588 --> 01:27:59.376
won't be a problem. Um, I don't know
how we address it because there's

01:27:59.409 --> 01:28:03.135
just so many of them in there from
Lier on all the way down to the

01:28:03.168 --> 01:28:08.055
confluence, you know, because of the
cold or clearer water, it's good

01:28:08.088 --> 01:28:12.345
habitat for them and that's been a
big, big change for them, you know. Uh

01:28:12.378 --> 01:28:18.046
, and, and, and

01:28:18.079 --> 01:28:24.397
so that's, that was one thing I was
thinking about the, the Lake Powell.

01:28:24.430 --> 01:28:28.126
Um,

01:28:28.159 --> 01:28:32.687
yeah, that's what I had in mind. I
mean, we, uh, we're looking at a

01:28:32.720 --> 01:28:37.826
situation where it's possible that
that lake could continue to fall. It's

01:28:37.859 --> 01:28:41.897
, you know, it was when you started
this program in the 19 nineties, that

01:28:41.930 --> 01:28:47.467
was only about 10 years after that
huge flood of 1983 the reservoir was

01:28:47.500 --> 01:28:53.595
still full as of about the year 2000.
Um But now, you know, Lake Mead is

01:28:53.628 --> 01:28:58.777
uh a third full and, and Lake Powell
is half full and um there's no

01:28:58.810 --> 01:29:03.796
guarantee that the new climate regime
isn't, you know, gonna change and go

01:29:03.829 --> 01:29:07.845
back to what it was before. There's a
chance that everything's going to be

01:29:07.878 --> 01:29:12.326
different. And this is an adaptive
management program.

01:29:12.359 --> 01:29:17.397
Do you think about what kinds of
adaptations might be facing us in the

01:29:17.430 --> 01:29:22.696
next 10 or 20 years if this is the new
normal, this climate regime that we

01:29:22.729 --> 01:29:30.729
have now? Yeah. Well, I think um as a,
as a non scientist, of course, you

01:29:30.819 --> 01:29:38.116
know, I see the low levels of lake
power and uh look at the dam in itself

01:29:38.149 --> 01:29:46.149
, the height it is and, and where the
generators are located, you know,

01:29:46.520 --> 01:29:51.576
because over time, I don't know what
the projections was, but eventually

01:29:51.609 --> 01:29:57.836
it will fill up with sediment anyway,
you know. But um but I'm just

01:29:57.869 --> 01:30:02.916
worried as, as the water goes down,
what are the power and how the power

01:30:02.949 --> 01:30:08.135
just gonna deal with that in terms of
the fluctuations cause they're

01:30:08.168 --> 01:30:12.036
currently allowed a certain range

01:30:12.069 --> 01:30:16.857
and they'll probably put a big fight
if we could not do it reduce the

01:30:16.890 --> 01:30:22.666
anymore because of the low levels of
power. I think that's the

01:30:22.699 --> 01:30:29.147
circumstances again that I'm speaking
to right now because I uh we had a

01:30:29.180 --> 01:30:32.656
meeting up at the page the other day
and I went through it again, like

01:30:32.689 --> 01:30:36.836
Powell, the bridge and over and God,
you know, the ramps are getting

01:30:36.869 --> 01:30:43.456
longer and longer. The boat ramps like
that. And it's, it's sad, you know.

01:30:43.489 --> 01:30:45.555
 Um,

01:30:45.588 --> 01:30:50.626
maybe if it goes low we'll see our
archaeological sites again. 2000 plus

01:30:50.659 --> 01:30:54.277
that were inundated.

01:30:54.310 --> 01:31:00.357
Yeah, we occasionally have to react,
uh, remain that's eroded from

01:31:00.390 --> 01:31:04.817
somewhere and is found on the beach
somewhere. A bone. They turned to a

01:31:04.850 --> 01:31:11.206
prehistoric, whatever, everything with
the burials on that. But uh and

01:31:11.239 --> 01:31:16.765
then, um

01:31:16.798 --> 01:31:24.055
I think because of water shortage,

01:31:24.088 --> 01:31:29.706
I think there's gonna be more impact
like with uh uh cap

01:31:29.739 --> 01:31:34.866
by cap central water because of the
water shortage because that's what

01:31:34.899 --> 01:31:40.826
they're drawing on to, to feed water
into Phoenix and other areas. Uh I

01:31:40.859 --> 01:31:47.866
think they're gonna probably want to
up that, you know, and the tribes

01:31:47.899 --> 01:31:52.777
adjacent them gonna wanna demand their
share. So I think that's a long

01:31:52.810 --> 01:31:59.675
term effect of, of, of the ecosystem
down there where more water will have

01:31:59.708 --> 01:32:04.487
to be drawn out to address the drought
right now. I think that's one thing

01:32:04.520 --> 01:32:08.666
that I've, I've been thinking about
too.

01:32:08.699 --> 01:32:13.456
Well. Um Last question is there
anybody else that you think we should uh

01:32:13.489 --> 01:32:18.265
be sure to interview uh that you've
already mentioned uh a good number of

01:32:18.298 --> 01:32:24.246
people like Charlie Bullets and Tim MC
and Octavia Octavius,

01:32:24.279 --> 01:32:30.656
Loretta Jackson M Downer. Ellen Down,
Ellen Downer is over in Hawaii.

01:32:30.689 --> 01:32:33.687
 Sipping Margarita,

01:32:33.720 --> 01:32:38.187
maybe we can go join him and get him
there.

01:32:38.220 --> 01:32:42.546
Um Anybody else that you thought
played an important role or would have an

01:32:42.579 --> 01:32:50.579
unusual perspective? Well, you
interviewed Jen for example. But, um, uh,

01:32:50.939 --> 01:32:55.726
and we interviewed Dave Wagner, uh,

01:32:55.759 --> 01:32:59.717
let me see the other two if you're
able to reach them because they were

01:32:59.750 --> 01:33:06.845
instrumental in, in AM wick recently
or, um, the former, uh, park service

01:33:06.878 --> 01:33:13.726
superintendent Steve Martin or
somebody before him or after him after him.

01:33:13.759 --> 01:33:19.925
Well, Steve Martin was involved too.
Yeah, I think he's might be back in

01:33:19.958 --> 01:33:24.696
the Flagstaff area. I'm thinking about
Steve. Steve. Yes. Yeah, they have

01:33:24.729 --> 01:33:28.626
a home there. Yeah.

01:33:28.659 --> 01:33:35.996
But it was the person who came after
Steve Martin. Um,

01:33:36.029 --> 01:33:42.036
I forgot his name. Dave. Uh,

01:33:42.069 --> 01:33:47.885
dang, what was his last name? He had a
kind of funny last name.

01:33:47.918 --> 01:33:53.666
I thought Steve Martin was a funny
name too. I love him. Exactly. Yeah, I

01:33:53.699 --> 01:34:00.246
can look it up and then, and then, um,
after Steve was another

01:34:00.279 --> 01:34:04.046
superintendent, uh,

01:34:04.079 --> 01:34:10.946
what, what was his name? Unger? Dave?
Unger. Dave Unger or Dave. Yeah, I,

01:34:10.979 --> 01:34:16.866
I'm correcting or, uh, I'll look it up
and, and you remember him as

01:34:16.899 --> 01:34:23.967
important because, well, they were
instrumental when, when, um, she Steve

01:34:24.000 --> 01:34:30.515
was there during the, the, uh, um, the
initial phases where we were in the

01:34:30.548 --> 01:34:38.548
nineties up and then, um, uh, then he
left and then another superintendent

01:34:39.479 --> 01:34:46.416
took over and he was there for a long
time. Uh, Unger Ars Burger, orange

01:34:46.449 --> 01:34:52.937
burger burger. That's right. Steve
orange burger. And so he was there for

01:34:52.970 --> 01:34:57.006
quite a while and he would be a good
person to talk to. They, they, they,

01:34:57.039 --> 01:35:02.126
they were on our tribal caucus when it
came to votes.

01:35:02.159 --> 01:35:06.376
You had a lot of support from the, the
Department of Interior Agencies. It

01:35:06.409 --> 01:35:10.487
sounds like other than maybe Bureau of
reclamation.

01:35:10.520 --> 01:35:18.520
Did they attend your caucuses? Bor No,
we never invited them.

01:35:18.588 --> 01:35:23.635
All right. Well, I think we've covered
everything. Is there any last

01:35:23.668 --> 01:35:28.277
comments you'd like to make before we
shut off the tape recorder? Well,

01:35:28.310 --> 01:35:35.206
let me see. And, and

01:35:35.239 --> 01:35:38.876
uh since you have our looks like you
have our report, the one that we did

01:35:38.909 --> 01:35:45.476
, we took a look at it that yes, of
course. Um lays out really the

01:35:45.509 --> 01:35:50.906
cultural values of the Grand Canyon,
right? So, feel free to draw on that.

01:35:50.939 --> 01:35:54.546
 Thank you. Um

01:35:54.579 --> 01:36:00.406
Oh,

01:36:00.439 --> 01:36:05.595
any other documents that you can think
of are very important? Well, on the

01:36:05.628 --> 01:36:11.376
record of decision. Uh there, there is
a, there's, there's appendices of

01:36:11.409 --> 01:36:14.897
all the tribal chapters

01:36:14.930 --> 01:36:22.595
uh that, so there's a Hopi chapter Pau
chapter nao chapter Zuni Chap.

01:36:22.628 --> 01:36:28.175
They're all in there as part of the
record of decision. So I think that

01:36:28.208 --> 01:36:34.196
would be a good source for you to do
it pretty much as uh synthesizes what

01:36:34.229 --> 01:36:41.350
it is in our big report. OK? But it
has all of our initial recommendations.

01:36:43.149 --> 01:36:45.149
All right. So that comes to my mind.

01:36:52.569 --> 01:36:57.916
Just tell Bureau of reclamation, I
want more money. Bye bye. Yes. You know

01:36:57.949 --> 01:37:01.506
, you're probably aware of this. Just
in the last couple of months, the

01:37:01.539 --> 01:37:05.946
Trump administration has announced
that they're sweeping all the funds

01:37:05.979 --> 01:37:10.286
that all the hydropower revenue that
had been funding. This program is

01:37:10.319 --> 01:37:15.156
going to treasury and there's a chance
that the program may no longer

01:37:15.189 --> 01:37:18.226
exist by 2019.

01:37:18.259 --> 01:37:23.046
That would be a shame. Yeah, that was,
that was alert last fall already on

01:37:23.079 --> 01:37:27.786
that. But it's gonna be too bad if it
does. You know, because there's so

01:37:27.819 --> 01:37:35.819
much energy, you know, put into this
effort here and it's, it's, uh, in my

01:37:35.850 --> 01:37:41.885
opinion, it's an effort worthwhile.
And I think

01:37:41.918 --> 01:37:44.857
with what's at stake

01:37:44.890 --> 01:37:50.726
in terms of the canyon being a very
special place for us all over America

01:37:50.759 --> 01:37:57.467
, you know, I think a sense of
monitoring and caretaking and good

01:37:57.500 --> 01:38:04.416
management. It's really, um, it's
really needed into the future. That's

01:38:04.449 --> 01:38:07.616
what I think.

01:38:07.649 --> 01:38:11.576
I think that's a great place to stop.

01:38:11.609 --> 01:38:13.609
Wonderful.