Very interesting. This is Boris Ali interviewing Maria Marino and on June
21st, 2016 at 4:26 p.m. All right. So, all right. So we're going from the
postpartum depression after I had Eden. Well, um
it, it, my husband was really abusive at the time and stuff like that. And
um when I was go over there to the other side of the couch and eat it, go
to the other side of the couch. Sophia go
stay there.
Hm. Kids.
But after that, I really did struggle with a lot of depression, like a lot
of outbursts like angry sh be quiet. Sophia.
Um Oh gosh, they keep making me lose my place. Um
After I had Eden cause like I said previously, you know, my ex-husband was
, he was abusive and like the situation I had left him in after I had
Jocelyn, you know, because it was a bad domestic dispute and they say
having the new kid, hey be quiet, quit, quit encouraging her, Jocelyn,
quit it.
Um And then after Halloween eaten, they're saying triggered a lot of that
like memories like flashbacks and stuff like that. Um A lot of it. Like, I
guess I wasn't really willing to remember. Um,
and I did have to go to a lot of counseling and stuff like that and I
wasn't in a hospital for about a week. I had a really bad breakdown. It
was like, oh, it was horrible. It was really bad. And, um, I went out
there and I talked a lot and I got put on some medication and stuff and
that really did help. I did the counseling but then I got pregnant with
Sophia and that was a struggle to come to terms with again cause I didn't
plan on having 1/4 kid, especially since I have my teeth tied and I really
wasn't planning on it. And so I was really honest with my doctor about
everything. Like I said, I had a bad birthing experience up here. So I had
chosen to go to um, Scottsdale for my last one and because Michael's are,
my mother-in-law works down there or worked down there as a medical coder.
So it worked out really great for us. And um, he's a really great doctor.
And so you scheduled an induction. Um Yeah, well, we were aware, I mean,
we were aware of the pressure. So we talked about that what we were gonna
do after that, we talked about the birth control and we talked about
deliveries and they knew that I was a fast delivery because they looked at
all my files and I told him about my pregnancy history. He asked what I
wanted and, um, like I said, we decided to go ahead and as long as I
haven't had her, he said, if you do go into labor earlier than like the
last week, he's all like, um, just go to hospital up there and we'll get
you down here somehow. We'll figure it out from there. But I would like
you to be down in the valley in last week. And so they scheduled for like
the 26th or like, no, it was the 27th because I did have her the same day.
They called me in. Um, but, um, we were hoping not until then. So Michael
really didn't want it. Like I said, like that last couple of weeks of
pregnancy, like we had like no Zeps or nothing. It was just, it, it was
hard on both of us. So, but I mean, can do, you know, he didn't want me to
go into labor up here because he didn't want me to count good birth up
here. And so, um, we went down there, we waited for a call where we got a
call anywhere from like 2 a.m. to like 10 a.m. and they didn't call till
like five. And so anyways, I went in and they started inducing me and,
um, the neural, uh, the,
the neurologist was getting ready to go to surgery. So I said I can get
the epidural now or wait until after. And, um, the nurse suggested at that
time do it right then because my labors go fast. So, if I go into labor
while he's in surgery, it'll be a natural labor. So, if you don't want
natural labor, get it now. So I got it then and I didn't really, it just
kind of slow it down a little bit. It did take a little bit longer for me
to go into labor. Um, once I did go into labor after they, um, broke my
water, um, it is a really quick delivery. She was only like two pushes.
Sophia was so quick and the doctor barely made it and the nurse was
really trying not to get me to push and they felt really bigger to push
and um, she didn't want me to but she, like, she's just like, right there
, like I know I need to push and she, um, the doctor finally came in one
push, her head was out and cleaned her up real quick and second push, she
was out really easy. And then the placenta came out really easy too. It
was a really nice delivery. Like, I love the nurses. The doctors, my
doctor was just right. He was a really good doctor. I really, I really did
like it. And he is the older guy and I mean, he's even been in like the
Phoenix best doctors or whatever, you know, he had a, he was on the cover
of it one time, like he has it in his office or whatever. And he was a
great doctor. And, um,
after that, you know, breastfeeding went really well with her. Um, and I
did try to stay off medication for a really long time because by the time
I had gotten pregnant with her, I had actually weaned off all my
medications. So probably, like, maybe like a month prior to actually
getting pregnant with her because we did the timeline. I had actually been
finished weaning off all the antidepressants and whatnot that I was on for
about a month now. And so I was taking it, I try not to take anything for
the longest time and I ended up nursing her for a long time before I went
back off. Not a full year like I wanted. But, so I got some. Were you
worried about postpartum depression? Oh, yeah, it was, it was a big
concern. And I mean, I, I really did struggle. I think what worked out
really great with, helping out with that is like with my ex-husband. He
didn't want me to work while I was pregnant at all. And then, um, with
Eden, I was working at a bookstore that's like coffee, coffee shop. Um,
but I kept getting really sick all the time and, you know, morning
sickness was just horrible. It's a terrible thing. So, um, I quit over
there and I didn't work and I stayed home for a lot of time with all the
kids and that's really hard. And so I think what really helped this time
was I was working at the time at the casino and I was able to go back to
work and not have to stay home all the time. I had something to look
forward to after delivering and stuff like that. And, you know, my job was
awesome. Like, if she was really like fussy or something like that and he
just couldn't get her to eat anything because she had a hard time taking a
bottle. Eden had a hard time taking a bottle and she had to get put on a
bottle. Um, but if she just want to eat for Michael, then he would just
bring her down there and I would go sit in one of the rooms and I'd, I'd
get to nurse her and stuff like that and I could either put up my little
sign and forward all my calls in the hotel or, um, if there's someone else
working with me, it didn't really matter. It's a hotel, it's not hard work.
That's my opinion. It wasn't. And then, um, that really helps a lot. It
really did, being able to go back to work and my husband was a stay at
home dad for a long time. Did it also help knowing that you have a, a plan
which was to like, ultimately get the hysterectomy. Mhm. That helped a lot
too, knowing that I wasn't getting pregnant again and especially just
talking to Michael because before it was just like, oh, I just don't want
more kids, I just don't want more kids. And then, you know, in the back of
your head you're like, you're still young, you, you might change your mind
now. But, you know, with the way Michael put it with me, you know, you
know, you have four kids if like, we break up and you go and you have
another kid with somebody else and you guys break up and you're stuck with
another kid and who knows if he's gonna be taking care of them. He's like
, oh, take care of my kids. He was like, no, and I know his family would
always help Michael comes from a really good family. So, um
just the way he put it though, it's just like, you know, I don't want that
to happen to you. You're a good mom now for, I think is really good for
you. And it's like, um, you know, he adjusted really well to going from no
kids to two, then three and then four pretty quickly, you know, and, um,
was his family supportive of you? I mean, what did they accept you?
Whatever. Yeah. His family was, was very supportive. You know, it, it's a
good, decent relationship. Um, his mom is really close to Eden because
it's her first grandchild, like, they're so close. Um, but now they
recently moved to Texas probably about a year ago almost. And so, um, it's
been a while since she's actually seen her grandma. She came here like
about a month ago or so. She was really close to her grandma because her
grandma used to live up here and they, she was such a big help with like
babysitting and everything. It is awesome. And then um
yeah, his other side of the family, his dad's side of the family was
really nice. They're very welcoming
and that it, it, it really did help. And by the time I had Sophia, me and
Michael were married after I finally said yes, I was maybe like 667 months
pregnant when I finally said yes and yeah, giving me the ring and I went
to work the next day after he had given me the ring and I got a phone call
at work and he's all like, hey, he's all like next week Thursday at 10
o'clock like we got an appointment at the courthouse to get married. Uh
next week. He's like, yeah, and, and he knew I didn't want to plan a
wedding. I, he knew I, if I ever got married again, I'd rather I don't
wanna do a whole wedding thing. Eventually I told him we'll do like a, a
wedding and everything like that like a show and what not, but not now
cause I don't wanna do that. I was like, I wanna plan a wedding. No way.
So when I finally said yes, I think he really wanted to seal the deal
really quick. So, because he had already paid for everything, he already
done everything, you know, it was all set to go. I had to do a sign and
wait for the paper to come back and then go and we were married like a
week later. And then, and actually the day we got married, my mom and dad
were supposed to be our witnesses because my mom and dad are really old
and we wanted them to actually see me get married this time because the
first time I got married is up in Washington on, uh, Woodby Island. It's,
it's fun. It was right there on the beach at a deception pass in Whitby
Island. It's really pretty. I wonder your parents were you just, they're
like late in life. My mom, well, my, um,
I'm not close with my real mom. I'm not. And that's actually, um, you know
, my grandparents raised me, my grandma and grandpa. Um, so I called them
mom and dad. My biological mom never raised me and my biological father.
He didn't raise me either and I didn't know them very well. And when I was
like 14, he had actually shot himself. So I never really knew him. But I
have my grandpa and that was dad to me and I'm not close with my
biological mom, like, at all, even though, like, I could show you right
now, like, the house I grew up in it. Like you can see her right over
there. She's around the hill and then my biological mom lives three houses
down when you raise on the reservation.
Yeah. We all grew up like that. That was a third for her. I don't know why
she didn't raise me.
We'll keep playing with your blankie. It'll warm you up.
Put the other one on top of you. Mhm.
So cute. She is awesome. She was my little surprise that she had to be
here, I guess. Are there any, um, are they Apache? Yeah, we're all Apache.
We're all registered members of the tribe except for my husband. My
husband is the only one. He's not, he's white and Mexican. So, but all the
kids are me and all the kids are. So it works out really good. Were there
any traditions surrounding like birth that, that they shared with you? No.
No. Like a lot of it's lost. A lot of it get passed down. Um, like I
never learned how to speak Apache and um, not very many do, um, a lot of
the traditions were really gone. You know, it was just normal life, you
know, nothing like nothing really, too special about it. So, um,
when you reflect back on your experiences is, and sometimes we ask people
this, it's a very tough question. Can you come up with like a word or a
phrasing of words that kind of describes your experience? Because part of
the project is putting these stories into like themes, you know, and like
themes that emerge. Sometimes this question helps us like faith or
connection or trauma or sensory, like the physicality of the experience.
Is there anything that comes to mind?
Hm,
I think is uh affectionate,
you know, I didn't grow up growing up on a res reservation. Like, um,
considering the age of my parents, you know, they grew up on an old
reservation, they grew up, um, you know, they're really old Indians, like
they're, they're elders, you know, you listen to your elders, they're,
they're very old and, um,
it was a really rough life for them.
Uh, and there just wasn't a whole lot of affection. Like, I think one
thing that really, um, frustrates my husband, which is something I still
had a hard time with was like, really affection, like touching, touching
was a really hard thing.
Yeah, you can just turn the knob down. Yeah. Affection like, and it really
wasn't, um,
you know, my mom, like my grandma, like, keep in mind just like old, you
know, to her when you raise kids, you know. Um, uh, it was an abuse back
then, you know. Um, but, but I did get constantly hit by my mom and my dad
would constantly get mad at her for it. Um, and it was a struggle growing
up because there just wasn't, there just wasn't a whole lot of affection
there and when, and with my ex-husband, you know, it wasn't a whole lot of
, like, I think I, I fell for him really hard because I was so young just
because he was affectionate towards me. And, you know, my parents really
weren't like I knew they loved me. But it was maybe my mom still have a
strange relationship. Um, but, or my grandma, but I call her mom, I don't
really talk to my real mom, whatever. I care less. She has her own issues.
She can deal with a me.
But
he, he grew up in like a very affectionate household, like his mom and dad
, like, I guess, like, what he would tell me when they grew, you know, his
dad always loved, his mom, always held her, put his arms around her,
touched her, kissed her, you know, it was always very affectionate, very
loving, you know, and that's how they grew up and they were used to it and
stuff like that. And, you know, my ex husband didn't touch me in a very
loving way, you know. So touch for me was a really affectionate touch was
a really big issue. It, it, and it's a struggle still but it's better and
my husband's a very affectionate person and it took a very long time for
me to get comfortable, I guess with him touching me,
like, just like rubbing your hair or anything like that. And then um I
just think cover for all my own skin. Like I never understood how you love
me because I was like, so uncomfortable, you know, and it worried me like
, I don't like him touching me. Like I like, you know, image was a big
thing, you know, and it took a long time for me to get over it and to
realize, you know, he really does love me. And um
he's a very affectionate guy. He, he really is. And, you know, it, it
frustrated him for a long time that I really didn't like him, like
touching me or like broke me or put his hand or anything. You know, it was
, it was a struggle for a really long time, but we've, we've managed to
get on. But that's, I think one thing with the nursing,
the intimacy, like I enjoyed nursing. I didn't nurse Jonathan very long.
It's a struggle nursing Jonathan again. I think a lot of it was like the
affection, the touching and, you know, having to like,
expose my breasts and then being only like 19 and your first kid. And it,
it wasn't a healthy relationship and being married already by 19. You know
, it was, it was a lot to take in. It really was. And um
I did enjoy the nurse. I enjoyed that quiet time that, but it, it was hard
with Jo, with Jocelyn. Um, it got a little bit easier cause I knew more
what to expect with nursing, you know, and how it felt a little bit more
and, you know, um I did better with her and I enjoyed it and Jocelyn, you
know, she, she's a very affectionate, very sensitive girl, very. So I
think that really helped a lot because she is very loving and having to
give her that affection.
Um you know, with Eden, it was great too. And I mean she's really close
with her grandma though. She really is when her grandma was here and her
grandma took her a lot when she was a baby because it, it helped us out a
lot. It really didn't then after I had Sophia but Sophia just um
God is such a great experience nursing Sophia and like now like with
Sophia, she really is like my most affectionate child, like with me, like
me and her really do have a very good, like loving bond, you know, cause
we did, I did nurse her the longest
and it seems like, yeah, that, I mean that was the biggest thing that was
just affection, trying to be affectionate. I really wasn't an affectionate
person, like not at all. So that was like a really big thing that like the
kids really did kind of help me learn and then, you know, my husband
really did help push with that because he's like, you know, I want my kids
to, I want to be affectionate around my kids. He's like, because I want my
kids to be affectionate. You know, he's like, I want my kids to see me,
like, talk to you and loving you and kissing you and it's just like you
never saw that and, you know, my parents were old, they didn't, they, in
their old ways, they, they don't do that stuff no more, you know.
So, no, it really seems like you've, um, you know, almost been like, in a
long term, like, um recovery really from things that are transparent in
your past and like growing into the person you are today and that your
family has really helped you to, it really has like, um, I'm really
different than my family. I'm really different than my mom and my sisters.
Uh, a lot of it is because of Michael. He really did help me come into my
own, like being a mom and stuff like that. Um, my family, I'm just not
like them. It, it wasn't a healthy, can you done? It wasn't that healthy
of an environment? I would say you don't realize it at the time, you know.
But when you think back you realize and then there's stuff you remember
that you have just forgotten. You're just like, wow, you're like, was my
childhood really like that bad? Like realizing I didn't grow up without a
dad. You know, that was something different. And then, like,
you know, I never thought of my grandma and grandpa as my grandma and
grandpa, you know, and, um,
as far as my mom goes, like, I'm, I'm my mom, you know, and I don't think
she really tried to help with
giving me that relationship with my biological mom, which is, you know,
her oldest daughter. You know, I don't think, I think she was happy to
have me with her because I think she, because I think it gave her like a,
a second chance at parenting because with the like environment, like they
raised, you know, my real mom and then my two sister and then my two
sisters in, they were like heavy drinkers. They partied a lot. You know,
it wasn't, they were very abusive towards each other and my sister saw
that a lot, you know, I, it, it really did affect them profoundly to this
day. You, like, they have a lot of problem. Like, my mom has a lot of
mental issues going on and, um, and my mom's a caretaker now, my um sister
, well, she, she'd be my aunt. Um, but I think just because the way she
grew up and because it really wasn't an affectionate environment, like
she's never had a relationship, um, she herself started partying and
drinking and doing drugs and she was very young, you know, and she's, um,
my mom was very abusive towards her. I know that and she doesn't have any
kids and she abuses alcohol and pills and, um, now, uh, maybe like with
almost two years now, I mean, the abuse finally I gave her like two
strokes and a couple of heart attacks. So now she's in a, a wheelchair and
she can't use her left arm and I am her, um, caretaker now and, um, she's
never had to really work hard and just growing up with my mom and stuff
like that the way she did with my mom at the time, um, she's gonna need
someone to take care of her. She doesn't have those life skills. My other
sister or my other aunt, the youngest of the three. I mean, she's, she's
all right. She graduated high school and she's all right. I mean, and her
marriage is, it's not an affectionate marriage. It, it's not, her husband
grew up in the same kind of environment like his parents did drugs. He
lost him early, he lost his sister, you know. So they don't have a very
affectionate relationship. So I can see the pattern in that. And um I
didn't really grow up like that. I didn't see the abuse but I didn't get
the affection from it either. So, I mean, I really see like my mom never
breast fed. She said that was something she was told, like not to do that.
No, don't do that. That's not right. You shouldn't expose yourself like
that, you know, talking about sex is like a, no, no, we don't talk about
that nasty stuff. We don't do that. You don't do that nasty stuff. It's,
you know, my mom and dad, you know, and then getting pregnant early. Oh,
my God. Yeah. Really? You know, and I, at the time to biologically, like,
my real mom, like, she has three kids. I'm the youngest of three. I have
an older brother. Um, he's the oldest, let's see, he's 30. No, he's 31 now.
I think he just turned 31. Um, but just because, like, I never really did
have that relationship with them. Like I li, I grew up in a house, like
you can see right here right on top of this hill. And my, they live right
down this road, even when I was growing up, my biological mom and dad I
live, like, right down here. And, um,
you know, my older brother I'm not close with at all. I try here and there.
Um, my older brother actually did. He, he was a heavy drug user for a
long time and he, he was horrible person. And then actually he used to
party with my ex husband once I introduced him to my ex-husband when I had
first met with him and they used to party together and, um, my brother
knew about the abuse and he did like nothing. He didn't care. So it's
really, and it's been a terrible relationship. Um, my sister who's a year
older than me. Me and her used to be pretty close as a kid. She struggles
a lot with drugs, um, meth and heroin, stuff like that. She recently just
got out of rehab. Uh, me and her were pregnant at the same time with our
first. Um, they're both nine now. They were both born in January and she
had a girl. Um, my biological mom is raising her, my sister just recently
got out of rehab. And so she's up in Prescott right now trying to recover.
She's like an outpatient type thing up there right now. Um, I don't know
what's gonna happen with my niece. You know, here's your question. Was
your ex physically abusive or mentally abusive? 00, he was terrible. He
was. But, um,
no, I really, I, I mean, Jonathan understands but I do
watch what I say around $10. Real dad because I don't want him to, like,
get older.
Well, put it in the room. Sophia go play. No, with that. They're ok. We
probably shouldn't. Yeah, I probably should. But, yeah, I mean, yeah, I,
we didn't grow up in, he, it wasn't a healthy environment growing up. It
really wasn't. I was all alcohol. Yeah. I had my trouble with alcohol.
No. Just be, do you feel like you've, um, you know, because of your kids
and your husband now that you've become that you've taken like a different
life path that could have happened. And you? Oh, I'm way more disciplined
with my kids than my sister is, or, than my mom was with us. Um, I pay a
lot more attention to my kids. Um, I think it, because I really want a lot
of attention for my mom and dad but I never got, my dad was, his affection
was money for my dad. Like to my dad see something with money and stuff
like that. My mom was, hmm. So, um, you know, I'm definitely different on
that aspect. Um, I don't constantly buy them stuff. Um,
you know, it was a very unhealthy h he eating habit growing up and I, I
had always been overweight. Um, you know, by the time I was, like, in
73 I was like £200 and by the time I was, like, in high school I was like
200 like, 15 or something. It was terrible. And, you know, I didn't learn
about diet or nothing like that. And,
yeah, I really did change that a lot because I, I did get healthier. So I
really don't. And I see them right now, like I said, I take care of my mom
and my sister now and I see they struggle a lot. Sophia be quiet, they
struggle a lot with their health and stuff and I know I don't want to. So
that's really changed as far as I try to get them to eat really well and
better than, at least when I grew up, I drink a lot of water. I was never
encouraged to drink water. I encouraged my kids, lots of water, you know,
and like, I still tried to lose weight. Now I'm only like 100 and £80. And
I, I told my husband I was like, I can't remember the last time I actually
weighed that much. Like, it has been a long time and he was like, yeah, he
was like, I remember you in school. You always were a big girl. I like, I
know. Right. And I was like, I look this good. He just laughs at me and I
was like, he always was just like, I was like, you were pretty so. But
yeah, uh there's a lot, I uh or a lot. It was a big thing, that statement
, but that's sweet and thought that, you know, the relationship you and
your husband have is very sweet. And I think that when you talk about his
look, relationships are challenging, you know, I've not talked to one
woman who does not have things to talk about in terms of the challenges of
marriage or relationship, you know. Yeah, it does. And um
you know, I thank him though for putting up with me like it's been a lot
like I've had my issues. The depression was a big thing for me. Um
Al Sal Harm was a big thing for me as far. Like, I never did drugs. I mean
, you know, pothead, whatever, you know, I, as far as doing, oh God,
everything just scares me. And, like, you know, I see my sister right now
my one, my aunt who I call sister, the one who I take care of, who's in a
wheelchair, you know, her addiction is pills. And I'm so glad I never got
into that because I, now, I mean, II, I have a key to a lock box that
keeps all her pills in it and I cannot let her have access and I have her
medical power of attorney. I had to get warnings out to where nobody else
could pick up medication for her because she, uh, I thank God. But, you
know, self harm was a big thing for me that I used to cope with. I didn't
use like drugs or anything, you know, alcohol. Yeah. But cutting was
probably a bigger thing. So, yeah, I mean, I totally get that damn.
Hm. You know, people have to find ways of coping. Yeah. It's been a
struggle but, you know, it's, it's worth it. I mean, the kids are good.
They're actually really well behaved. They're very energetic, they're
very happy kids. They're very outgoing and they're very smart and happy.
So that a mom, I don't know. Nothing. It's all melted. Help me, I smoke it.
What? I guess I eat it. You're so crazy. I think you drank it.
Well, your kids are adorable and they're very energetic. I'm definitely
way more stricter with them. I definitely pay a lot of attention to them
because that's, that's what I wanted. Yeah. And we're always trying to.
Yeah, I never really.
Yeah. Perfect timing. So, where was she going?
So, I think we can stop there. Yeah, it's perfect.