This is Boris at least interviewing for the Creative Push project on
December 17th, 2016 at 12:35 p.m. OK. Can you say your name and your age?
Uh Nicole Gonzalez and I'm 36. Excellent. OK. So why don't we start with
you? Just giving me a little like family background, you know, where
you're from, you know, in your family. So I'm Dana and I grew up in
Waterflow New Mexico with my mom and my stepdad and we have your typical
blended family. Um I actually have eight siblings and um yeah, it's, it
was a really nice childhood. We traveled to like um North Dakota, South
Dakota selling uh jewelry, visiting people and going to powwows. Um And my
dad actually lived, I would say like 10 minutes south on the Navajo
reservation. Um He's a diesel mechanic and he lived in a trailer. Um I
have a lot of fond memories of visiting him because I would play in the
ditch and go jump in the river in the summertime and go climb what it's
called little hug back. Um and just have my little tea parties up there by
myself and I often think about my kids not having that kind of childhood
today because we're too afraid to send them out to do stuff like that by
themselves. But those were really good times. My mom, she, um, she worked
for a coal mine. She used to drive the big coal trucks. My whole family
actually worked for, um, bh, what is it, uh, for one of the coal mining
companies up there, there's like three of them. But my grandfather, my
uncles, my aunts, my mom, my dad, everybody worked for coal mines. Um and
I feel like they provided us a really good income and I think that's why a
lot of my relatives work there. Uh My mom did a lot of shift work. She'd
work night shift and weekends holidays until she injured her back and then
she um stopped working and my stepdad continued to work there until he
retired recently from an injury. And she um after she married my dad, my
stepdad, they had two more Children who are my little brother and sister.
And so I pretty much raised them. They were with me everywhere. I went in
high school. People thought they were my kids because they were always
with me. And um my family really like to travel a lot. And so I really,
I'm thankful for their adventurous side because I also like to travel
still. Um my mom and dad today make teepee and that's their business. I I
feel like my mom was just always kind of a natural entrepreneur. She sold
Mary Kay. She, she made jewelry, she sews like nonstop these days and they
make teepee, still sell jewelry here and there. So they're pretty, they're
pretty busy even though they're retired. Um My dad, he, my stepdad, he
grew up in the Native American church and so he introduced that to our
family when I was pretty young. Um having people over for all night
meetings and um having a teepee in the backyard like that was normal for
me. Uh My parents would often go on weekends to other families homes to do
ceremonies for them for healing. And that was a good, I just a normal kind
of thing that we did. You know my mom, um she would pray over us. She
would get her cedar out and her fan and she would pray over us if we had a
big test or if we're having family issues, she would pray. Um A lot of my
milestones growing up was like that my 16th birthday, we had a N AC
meeting for graduation. I had an N AC meeting and if there were problems,
we had sweat lodge and we sit and talk with our family and have a sweat
lodge. Um To me that was really normal. I don't think I realized how lucky
I was to have that growing up. Um My dad who is a diesel mechanic key has
a new family as well. He's got another son with my step mom and has a very
big family as well. Um He's got eight siblings and we would go to their
sheep camp and play outside and for Thanksgiving or Christmas we go over
and visit. He's a, a farmer. So he was always outside, irrigating the
field or planting corn like he really liked to be outside and work. So I
feel like I got a good balance of kind of being outdoors and being indoors.
Do you remember your mother being pregnant? I do remember my mom being
pregnant with her first child, which was my sister. Um, I don't, I think I
was maybe nine or 10. Um, I remember having her, she's had this big belly
, maybe she was eight or nine months. Um,
and we would go for walks. We, so in water flow, we lived off right off
right off the highway of 550. So we would walk up and down the road for
like exercise and she'd be walking with her pregnant belly. People would
stop and ask if we needed a ride because maybe we thought we had car
broken down and my mom would tell them, no, I, I, um, I don't need a ride.
We're just getting exercise, but she, she went to the hospital in
Farmington and had her baby and during that time, you know, kids were not
allowed in the hospital. And I remember really missing her when she was
gone. At the hospital. It felt like forever. I don't really know how long
she was gone. Um, and because I was the only child at home with my stepdad
, it felt very quiet and lonely when she wasn't there. Um, but she went to
the hospital and, you know, next thing, you know, she came home with a
baby and it was my sister and, you know, I don't really remember my sister
so much as a baby. Um, I was very much the big sister helping change
diapers and, you know, taking care of them when she was away for pod
meetings or, you know, helping my dad. Um, and then my, I guess she must
have had a miscarriage at some point between my sister and my brother and
they had some sort of ceremony done and then she had my brother, um, who I
was really happy to have more kids in the house. It was less quiet and he
, um, he was pretty healthy baby. You know, again, I was curious, I wanted
to be there with her at her birth, but I couldn't, um, I think my mom
likes to laugh because the first thing I said to her was like, they look
like one of them, which my dad had three other stepchildren or three
Children from another marriage. And so I was making a reference that they
look like his side of the family. Um, they kind of laughed about that but
, you know, I, I'm really close to my little brother and sister because I
spent so much time taking care of them. Um, I know when I went to college
they were pretty sad and upset to see me go.
Did you, um, understand the birth process? Did she share any of that with
you at a young age? I didn't understand the birth process. Um, no, she
didn't tell me about babies or how they came to be. Um, it wasn't till I
became older and had my own Children that I began to ask my mom about how
my birth was and she said she doesn't quite remember. Um I, she says I
want to say like five or six months. Um, she and my dad got divorced and I
think that was really traumatic for her. And so she didn't remember my
pregnancy or my birth. It kind of bothers me that she doesn't remember
that sort of thing with me. But, you know, when I start asking her about
my sister's birth and my brother's birth, like she doesn't quite remember
either. Um, unless, you know, she's sitting across from my aunt who was
with her for each of those births, then it's like her mind is Remi and
jarred that, that my sister needed a vacuum assisted delivery before she
could come out. Um She doesn't know if she had an epidural or not. Um So,
yeah, she doesn't quite remember those things. So, can you tell us about
your first pregnancy? Like all the way back to the conception? You know,
what were the circumstances? Was it expected? Was it a surprise? It was
definitely a surprise. My husband and I had been dating for two years and
he asked me to marry him in January and it was really lovely and, um,
engagement. And then a couple months later I found out I was pregnant and
, um, I had a miscarriage that first time. Um, and then not too much
longer, I found I was pregnant again and I was really happy and excited,
even though it wasn't planned or expected, I definitely was concerned that
people would think that I got pregnant and then we got married. Um, but
that's not what happened and I know he was really happy and excited. Um,
at the time I was working as a nursing assistant at a, like a rehab
hospital in Albuquerque. Um, I was really interested in becoming a nurse
when I met my husband. Um, actually, no, I was actually going to school to
be a doctor, um, when we met. And so when we got engaged, you know, the
plan changed a little bit and I thought, well, I kind of want a family. I
don't really want that busy life that the doctor has. So maybe I'll be a
nurse. And so I did everything I could to learn about nursing to get
education training in nursing before I applied to nursing school. Um, but
I was probably in my second year of college when I got pregnant with my
daughter and I was really sick. I was so sick. I had to stop my working
and I threw up so many times a day and I, um, had to keep trash bags in my
car because the motion made me sick. Um, it was really difficult and I
really had a hard time finding a doctor. I liked, um, I had no knowledge
about midwifery or what kind of options I had available to me. I asked my
sister-in-law who she saw for her pregnancies and she referred me to her
doctor and he was ok. Um, I don't think I had any con preconceived ideas
about what kind of care I would get. I just knew he was a doctor and he
listened to my belly when I went in to see him. Um, and that was it like
there wasn't really a relationship there. I didn't and I didn't expect one
, um, about our third or fourth month that I was pregnant. Um, we got
married and in the pueblo culture, it's like a big old weekend event with
lots of hard work and baking bread and, you know, um, working with the
community and me being a young 20 year old, I had no idea. That's what all
entailed. I thought the white wedding and the dress and off with my
girlfriends and having a, like bachelorette party. Like, I didn't have any
of that. I was, I was sick and I was pregnant and I was trying to do my
best to please everybody to have this wedding. Um, and so the day of my
wedding I was still sick. My father in law had gotten me a breakfast
burrito with chili and, oh, I just couldn't keep it down. And it's funny
because um that first, after we got married in the church in Sinal De
Fonso Pueblo, um they take you to your home or your family's home and they
talk to you about being about being married and how to treat each other
and you choose speakers to talk to you about marriage. Um This can, can go
on all day and all night. It just kind of depends. So while your cooks are
feeding everybody at a different location, the community is talking to you
about getting married or being married. Once the conversation ends and
they can release you, then you can go eat. So it is probably maybe four or
five, maybe in the, in the day that I got to eat for the first time. And I
was really sick and I was, we went to our, our um reception and we're
sitting at the table and I'm trying not to throw up. And I'm telling my
husband, you know, can you please go grab me some bread and some water I
said, I don't feel very good and he's looking at me like, ok, but he's not
going anywhere. And I'm getting really mad because I'm like, ok, is this
what it's gonna be like, you know, your wife is sick. You're embarrassed
to go grab some food because you don't want to offend anybody and I'm
gonna throw up on my dress. So I was really upset and finally somebody
came and brought us some food and he saw that I was really upset with him.
Like I was trying not to cry, sitting there and it's hard not to do that
when people are looking at you. Um, and I was in my mind thinking God, is
this what I married? Is this guy not going to take care of me, my needs
going to come last when I'm pregnant and sick and he's not going to grab
me food like you have that realization. Um But he, he did something kind
of, um, very sweet, but he, he knew I couldn't say no. We had a, uh, a guy
who came and played music while people were eating and he, um played a
song for me and he said, can my wife come and dance with me? And I
couldn't say no. And so he asked me to go dance and I, I forgave him by
that point. So we got through that first part. It was probably out of all
three of my pregnancies. The, the hardest part of it was being sick and
throwing up and the remaining of my pregnancy. I,
I, I don't think I was really aware of what kind of mom I wanted to be. I
hadn't read any literature. Um, I know a lot of moms today are very self
aware about what kind of mothers they wanna be. And I just wasn't, I was
20 you know, I, I didn't have a plan. Um, I also had just been married
into this family who I really adored and loved my husband's family and I
feel like I was just really trying to please everybody. Um, and I hadn't
made any plans about the birth or, you know, I was reading what to expect
when you're expecting and kind of excited to see the changes to my body
every week, I think through that whole pregnancy, we only got one picture
of my belly. Um, and
it was pretty uneventful. I, I guess, I don't know if I gained a lot of
weight or not. I don't quite remember. Um, I was also still in school full
time being pregnant and so I was pretty focused on my education. Um, my
husband at the time he was working in, um, like the eastern part of New
Mexico. So it was an hour and a half drive, one direction, an hour and a
half back. So when he would get home from work, he was pretty tired.
So, did you fall into some traditional roles of husband and wife. Yes and
no. Um, when I met my husband, my mom was very stern with him and had to
talk that I was gonna finish school before we did anything. Um, we don't
follow that obviously, but I was determined to finish school for my own
reasons. Um, so we weren't traditional in that sense. Um
I think as far as being a mom and staying home and taking care of myself
during my pregnancy,
I think I was immature in my twenties and just thinking that was my role.
Um Did you uh So you had so many other things on your plate besides just
focusing on your birth and the pregnancy. So, but did you have a moment to
think about like um did you just think, well, I'm gonna go to the hospital
and whatever happens, happens or did you? Right. So we, we did go to
childbirth preparation classes. Um And that was really exciting um to be
in a room full of moms and dads and we were really attentive listening. I
think it was like a four week class. I remember doing the breathing and
then they're showing us the forceps and the vacuum and my husband's
looking at me, he's like those things are not gonna get used on our child.
Um But I was just kind of naive like, oh, ok, those are tools to help
with delivery. Um And I believe we did that towards the end of our
pregnancy. I remember the morning my labor contractions started. It was
like two in the morning and I was like, oh, the contractions are starting
and I kind of, you know, woke him up and shoved his arm a little bit was
like, hey, you know, contractions have started. He's like, really do we
need to go to the hospital and I'm like, no, they're coming, but I don't
think it was gonna be a while yet. But by that point I couldn't go back to
sleep. So I get up and we're cleaning our house because our baby room
isn't quite ready. And, um, you know, making sure my bag is ready to go
and, you know, and the, the contractions are still like cramping every
couple of minutes and, you know, just so some of those changes I noticed
and in my body and I had actually a doctor's appointment that day and my
husband was going to work and he was like, do I need to go to work or do I
stay? And I said, no, go to work. Um, I have a doctor's appointment. I
said this is probably just early labor and then, um, I'll, um, I'll call
you if I need you. So he goes to work and then I go to the doctor's office
and the doctor looks at me and he says, well, we're going to induce you
today. And I was like, oh, I said, well, I thought it was still pretty
early in labor. He says, no, your, your blood pressure is really high and
we need you to go to labor and delivery right now. And I'm like, ok, would
I feel fine? Um It's not until years later that I was like, thinking about
my last trimester of my pregnancy and looking at pictures like I was
really swollen, my feet were really swollen, my face was swollen. I
remember getting headaches. I remember flashes of light when I moved to my
vision, um which to my knowledge today is telltale signs of preeclampsia.
Um But I didn't know that then I felt fine as far as I know. So I remember
going to labor and delivery. I just walked over because he was in the same
building and they put up Ivy in and I called my husband. I was like, OK,
it's, you know, they're going to induce me today. You need to come over
and see me and get my stuff. And so he was excited and I believe they use
Pitocin to get my labor going a little more. And, and um my, my mother in
law and my sister in law were there and I called my mom and she came and I
was kind of unsettled about who I wanted to be at my birth. Um Again, I
was in my young twenties trying to please everybody not wanting people to
feel left out because, um, but really, you know, if it was years later it
would have just been me and my husband. I wouldn't have had so many people
there. Um,
my relationship with my sister in law when we were married early on was
really difficult. Um, she really was judgmental about me and my role why
he married me at all. Um, a lot of our disagreements during our pregnancy
was because of her. So to have her at the birth, um, was kind of my peace
offering because his mom was insistent that she should, they be there,
wanted to be there to support. So I allowed it. Um, but while she was
there, she was on her phone the whole time and, you know, there's pictures
of her talking on the phone over my bed and, um, a little distracting. Um
,
but I did get an epidural for pain because the Pitocin got pretty intense
and strong. Um, and I didn't feel anything once the Pitocin was in or not.
I'm sorry, the epidural was placed. I was pretty comfortable. Um, I still
to this day, I don't know what my blood pressure look like. Um I do
remember when it came time to push. You know, the doctor is sitting there
at the edge of the bed and my legs are spread open and I can't even
remember if I was in stirrups or not. I might have been. Um, but I'm
pushing, but I'm not feeling anything. And I'm looking down at him asking
him, am I pushing appropriately? And he's not giving me any feedback. So
I'm looking to my right talking to the nurse like this is how I push and
she says, oh, yeah, you're doing fine. You need to push this way. I
probably was pushing for almost three hours when they finally decided to,
um, use some forceps. So they use the forceps to help her out. Um, and she
came out and the first thing I saw was her big belly, like big belly cry,
crying baby. They bring her over to me and I'm like, you know, like great
, you know, she's out. Um, and they take her right away over to the, to
the warming station and you just see her belly. It's all I can see. She's
just a big baby in her belly and she's got rolls on her arms. And, um,
anyway, my mother in law, my sister-in-law over there were checking on her
and my mom's looking at her and then my husband didn't leave my side. He's
, he looked at her, but he was more concerned about me. And, um, I think I
asked him if everything looked ok and he says, well, it looks pretty bad
down there. I was like, ok. Um, and then I start to feel very lightheaded
, like I want to black out like I'm getting really warm and fuzzy and I
want to close my eyes and go to sleep and, and then there's another nurse
coming in and the voices are fading and, um, the doctor says, give it to
her in her leg and they give a shot to me in my right leg. And I didn't
really feel it because I had the epidural, but my husband's like, you know
, don't go to sleep, talk to me. Um, and they inverted the bed so my head
was lower. Um, But they, everybody was getting pretty scared because
apparently he was having a really bad postpartum hemorrhage that he was
trying to stop. And he just said the blood was flowing out of me like a
river. You could hear it. And I was just like, oh, ok. Um And, and then he
stitched me up and I didn't feel that either. Um And then right away after
I was all done and stitched up, I was fine. But my husband was like, are
you ok? You know, you, you look really pale, you know, you're, are you all
right? He was really concerned and my mom was concerned it wasn't too much
longer after maybe an hour or two, they came back in and they hung this
stuff coming the cum sulfate, which I didn't really know what it was for.
I think it was for, I mean, I know it's for now, but at the time it was, I
think it was for my blood pressure because it was so high and they had to
keep that infusing through me for 24 hours and it made me really groggy
and sleepy and foggy and I didn't really feel like I got to connect with
my daughter because I was kind of out of it and people came and visited me
and I was still kind of trying to visit with them. And finally my
husband's like, you don't have to talk, you can just rest, you don't have
to talk to anybody. Um, but that was for the preeclampsia that I had. And
, you know, finally I think I stayed at the hospital like three or four
days, which is a long time. Um, my daughter weighed £8.15 ounces. She's a
big girl. And, um, when it came time to go home, you know, he carried her
in the car seat and the nurse was walking in front of him as a male nurse.
And I was really surprised that considering what I went through and how
weak I felt because I want, when they had me get in the shower, I must
pass out that they wanted me to walk to the car and I was kind of like
slow down. Like I'm holding on to the wall to get through the hallway. And
these two men in front of me walking really fast to get to the car and I
had to tell him to slow down because I, you know, it's, I'm having a hard
time. Um, but I, it, from what I remember talking to the doctor after I
had a postpartum hemorrhage, I had preeclampsia. I had a forceps delivery.
My daughter who was really big. Um I did not have diabetes because she's
a big baby. Um I had a really bad third degree tear so my bottom was
pretty sore for a couple of weeks after like achy when I moved. Um, and it
was, you know, I was exhausted and trying to breastfeed her after um I
wanna say I feel like I had a little postpartum depression after I had her
because I think it was during that time when they were really talking
about, you know, that postpartum psychosis and women wanting to hurt
themselves and their babies. And I was thinking in my mind, is that what
I'm going through? Is that what I'm feeling? Do I want to hurt her? No, I
don't want to hurt her like these kind of mental thoughts going through my
mind and I feel like I was really going through the motions for a long
time with her because I did, I don't know how to be a mom. You know, I
know I need to change her diaper and feed her and breastfeed her and um
put her to bed. But like that really connecting mothering that you hear
women talk about like I don't feel like I had that. Um I don't think it,
it took me a while before I even got the hang of that. I felt like that
too. I felt like it was my new job. Right. Right. And, and that's another
thing is, it did feel like it was my new job. Um, and my husband's family
is very traditional in the sense that the real, the real, the mo um how do
I say the male, female roles are very specific? Um So I felt guilty if I
wasn't putting her to bed or holding her or, you know, giving her the
right kind of bath? And I, I have to say I had family around who made me
feel not very good to be a new mom judging me. And even after I gave her a
bath, the first time, my sister in law gave her a bath again and clean her
ears and like, is she not clean enough? Am I not doing a good enough job?
Like it just felt very much like that and I feel like today that really um
helps me work with women better because, you know, I remember all of those
feelings with my first child and just learning to be a mom knowing that
there's judgment everywhere. Um So I'm I'm pretty thoughtful and
encouraging to new moms because I, I know what that felt like. Yeah, I
often say you're, you're being judged the moment you conceive, right? What
you eat, what you don't eat, what you you do or walk or not walk or
whatever it is. There's no right way. You're always doing it wrong a
little bit according to one person, at least. You know. So you just have
to do what is right for you. Um, I, I do wanna say though with her
pregnancy, um, because I grew up with these traditions, I did do like a
blessing way ceremony with her and with, I've had it with each of my kids
before I went into labor or a month or so before just because that's one
of our DNA traditions. Um So even though like, intellectually, those
ceremonies don't quite, how do I say they, they've always been a part of
my life, but the meaning and attention of them on some level, I didn't
quite get until later.
I mean, I definitely
understand it more now and can reflect and be like, man, I'm really glad I
had those things done for me and I asked for them, even though I wasn't
quite clear about why
did you, um, did you have a name picked out or did well, how did you come
up with the name? Do you know the sex? So we knew the sex of the, of her.
We knew she was a girl. Um My mother-in-law's twin sister is named
Charlotte and her twin sister died when she was five, I believe from an
illness. And so when she said her name was Charlotte was like, oh, we love
that name. Nobody's name is Charlotte. So we, we saved letting people know
what her name was until after she was born. So it was a nice blessing for
her mom to hear that. We named her after her sister.
Um Was there anything special, you know, um blankets or cribs or anything
that people made for you or that, you know, you still have or, you know, I
know I still have an August baby blanket. So in the Pueblo culture, they
have a naming ceremony which is um
you're supposed to have it within a month. I think after the baby is born
, I think with her, we had it three months after. Um we chose one of the
elders in the pueblo to name her and um they named her Nana Katay, um
which I believe is yellow autumn leaf. And at the same time, I also got my
Indian name when she got her Indian name. And um so it was really nice to
have a naming ceremony. So this person who does the naming ceremony is
supposed to kind of guide them in the traditional way of living and teach
them things. You know, they have dances in the pueblo that the girls, the
women have to dress up for and participate in. So to talk about those
things and to share that knowledge, I mean, we don't all we're not born
knowing how to lace up our or put on our moccasins or put on our wraps or
know what side our dresses need to be on or how to put on our sash belts.
Like those things are taught. So those are like things that you're your,
um, the woman who names, you would basically teach you those things. So we
usually, you can, they get their name at the first light. So when the sun
comes up, then the light touches her and then you can name them, um, or
you go to the Pueblo Kiva and they gave them a name then um during like
different dances and stuff. So, but she got her name that way
with at the Kiva. No, she, she did it um in the Pueblo but not during a
ceremony or dance. It was a separate occasion and they gave her blanket
and they dressed her up in her moccasins and her, her clothing, which I
still have. Um And so they just have this connection with this person
throughout their life.
That's a really, um you know, a lovely concept. And one of the things, you
know, talking to other women is this kind of strength of community and
family and that um you know, they're just really inter interconnected in a
very strong way. I think when it comes to that connection to family, that
was something that was really attractive to me and different coming from
my DNA culture, from the Pueblo culture um before I met my husband or
actually, while we were dating, there were times I came to the Pueblo for
dances and stuff and I helped bake bread and some of these like fe female
engagement activities was really around cooking and baking bread and
helping community through their act and their skills. Um And that's
something that because of culturally and spatially, the DNA culture is
very different. Like, you know, my aunties and uncles live kind of a
distance away. Um Some are Catholic, some are Christian, some are N ac,
some are, you know, traditional Navajo um or they're all three or four.
And so here, you know, you live close by you, you see these women often
whether it's a funeral or a ceremony or some, something is happening in
the community where you will see them or work with them. So usually like
stories about how we take care of ourselves or just being with women is
usually around the oven or cooking or something like that. But that was
very attractive to me because I didn't grow up that way. Um Because my
parents are divorced. Um My mom has a small family. I didn't have, I
wasn't around a lot of women all the time. I was usually by myself or with
my brother and sister. Um And there's challenges of having a blended
family anyway, you know, my, my step siblings were in and out of our lives
because they were either mad or, you know, something like we just weren't
always all together all the time. But here like, you know, there are
specific times of the year where we're always together like Feast Day or
corn dance or, you know, there's a different specific activity that you
know, you're gonna be together to cook. So was your um Navajo language
different than your husband's language? It's very different. Oh Yeah. Yeah.
So the, the dialect is different. The how you pronounce things are
different, the culture of women is different. So in the DNA culture, when
we introduce ourselves, we're saying I was born for. So you're going
through your matrilineal heritage, explaining your clan system to
introduce who you are, who you're born for, who your grandmother is and
where they live. So you have this kind of matriarchal history that you
give when you introduce yourself. Um in the Pueblo culture, it's mostly
patriarchal men. So um
I would say the feminists would probably not like it so much because
women's roles are very colon stick in the sense that you're in the kitchen
, you helpers. But I would disagree with that. I feel like um the Pueblo
women are really strong um in their beliefs and they work really hard. But
when something happens in the community, you see everyone come together
and they assume different roles and they work really well together. It's
more of a balance than one person doing everything or one group of people
doing everything. Um It's always nice for me to see that whereas in the D
A culture. Um There's a lot of differences with death and birth where,
whereas a public it's different, right? Um Because death for them is
something they celebrate and they have their way of taking care of their
community members who've passed on. Whereas the a like we don't want
anything to do with death. Like we can't be in a room with someone who
passed away, we have to leave, somebody else needs to take care of it.
It's like a taboo. It can make you sick. So how would you introduce
yourself in the Pueblo culture? Uh I would just be, I mean, if I don't
speak Tewa, I speak a little bit. But um you know, there isn't an
introduction um versus like, you know, if I were to go back home to or if
I were to meet another d A person out in the world, they'd want to know
what my clan was. Whereas in the Pueblo culture, there's, I don't think
there's, I've never met anybody who wants to be introduced by their clan.
Um I, I'm somewhat respectful of kind of how they do things and they're
kind of private about things. So
I know some tawa um and some is used for inside the house and some are
used for outside. Um But there isn't like a specific way to introduce
yourself. So um did your inclinations towards, you know, participating in
um helping women through birth and mid midwifery, like begin after that
first birth or did it emerge later on? It emerged over time? So, obviously
, I've always been interested in birth. Um, really, it was spurred by
going when I finished my nursing degree, I was pregnant with my, the
second child. And um I started working as a nurse on labor and delivery
and I was probably six or seven months pregnant and I was busy on my feet
all day long and he was probably my biggest baby. Um, but I was, I mean, I
mean, the nurses were in awe of me because it's like Nicole, you were
pregnant and you kept up with all of us and you weren't complaining or
tired like I was just busy working. Um, um, but that's how much I loved
what I was doing as I really loved working with women and making them feel
good and comfortable and listened to even as a nurse, what actually pushed
me to become a midwife was, um, I worked at IHS Hospital in Al, oh, I
can't say that I worked at an is hospital basically, uh, a medical
surgical and I really didn't want to work there. Um I was really happy
working at my labor and delivery work job. But because I just had paid for
my education, I had to fulfill my obligation for them, paying for my
education by providing them two years of my nursing experience as, as a
job. Um, and I have to tell you going from this really nice labor and
delivery unit where people work together and you are expected to be nice
to women. And
it just was very cohesive, warm group. I went to this other space that was
dark and people weren't nice to each other and they complained and, you
know, I felt like some of the women didn't take pride in their work. I
felt like they were just there to retire. Um And maybe I'm wrong but, you
know, I just didn't see that pride that I saw in the other nurses I worked
with there, with some of the nurses who worked there. And it was really a
disappointment for me to see then behave. The nurses behave this way
and then to work with a community, my community of people, um
that wasn't the best care. I feel like they could have gotten, um an
example would be because they knew, they knew I had labor and delivery
experience. And it, it's really only been a year I had, I had been in a
labor and delivery nurse. They had me do some um shifts over labor and
delivery in the IHS hospital. And at the time, there was a lot of turmoil
happening because IHS Hospital was going to close our labor and delivery
because they didn't have the high number of women birthing there. Um And
their ob doctor was going to retire and they weren't going to replace him.
There was a couple of nurse midwives who work there and they were white
women um that were caring for women or at least native women coming for
care. There was one navajo nurse I worked with and she was very nice. And
uh my first encounter with a midwife there was I was admitting a patient
who was in labor to one of the really small rooms and they were monitoring
her on the fetal monitor and I was gonna check her blood pressure. So I
put the blood pressure cuff on her arm. And this nurse midwife who's an
anglo woman was like staring me down the whole time, like so intimidating
, staring me down as I'm putting this blood pressure cuff on this patient.
And I'm like, why are you intimidating me? Like this is not appropriate?
Um And as I was getting to leave, you know, she goes over there and takes
the blood pressure cuff off before I could like just very like aggressive
intimidation. And at that point, I was like, I really don't want to work
over here if this is how these ladies are. Um And I talked to this Navajo
nurse who was there and I said, well, why do you work here? This place is
so disappointing and dreary and people are not nice to each other. So the
morale is not good. And she said, you know, I feel like there's definitely
some racism that goes on here between non native nurses and providers and
patients. But I feel like these women need to see a native woman, a native
nurse taking care of them. And so I stay so I was like, ok, um there was
another shift I work there with a, a woman from my community who was
having a baby, her second baby and having ac section. Um and the story
with her is she had lost a baby at a, at this hospital in labor. And I'm
not sure of all the details, but she, the baby had died. And so she was
coming back to have another baby and I was asking her, why are you here to
have this baby? Like why can't you go someplace else? And she says, well,
I don't feel I could go, I could go anywhere else. Um And I was just like
, how awful to go to a place where your baby died to not feel like you
have options. Um And maybe it was at the fault of the provider. I don't
know like this to me feels wrong. There was a labor and delivery nurse who
sounds like she was a nurse practitioner who had just the nastiest
attitude. She would put like 18 gauge ivs in everybody, which is one of
the biggest um um ivs to put in women. I mean, you, you really don't need
a big one to, to transfuse blood, but she would go above and beyond for
that. And she said, I'm afraid they're gonna have a postpartum hemorrhage.
I'm just being safe. But I'm like, that's not right. But a at one point
during working there, she definitely gave me a piece of her mind and I was
crying and I was like, I'm done working here. I don't need to do with
people like you. Like it was just one incident after another where people
were just very rude, intimidating, even my nursing supervisor was
intimidating.
And so I was more than happy to give up, give up my two years and then get
out of there. Um But it was during that time I approached one of the Anglo
midwives there about midwifery because I was applying, I had my
application and so I just asked her casually. Well, do you consider is
midwifery a mid-level? Like, how would you define that? And I was just
curious, she didn't know I was applying. I just had this question for her
and she like totally went off on me. We're not mid-level providers or
health care providers. We're nurse midwives, we're not dot Physician
Extenders. So it was just right away lashing out at me about just the
question I was asking her and I'm just like, jeez, here's another
opportunity where she could have maybe helped me with my application, but
she totally like, I'm like, I don't wanna talk to you then. Um So I seeing
my community being careful like that, not having feeling like they have
options like that really did something inside of me because I was like, I
can't, I, I can't sit back and do nothing. We can't just allow this to
happen. You know, this is not ok. Um And I had to really struggle with my
husband and his family about going back to school because again, we have
these very traditional roles. I had just finished nursing school. Why do I
wanna go back to school? My kids are little. What I need to go to school
now? Can I do it later? What about the kids? So I had a lot of um doubt
pushed in my direction about my path and I felt really guilty because I
wanted to be a good mom. And if was I being a bad mom, if I decided to go
back to school? So I held off not applying to nurse midwifery school. And
the following year, there were some more things happening in our pueblo. I
saw just some really heartache, hardship people not being taken care of
again. And I was just like, I don't care what you guys say. I'm gonna go
to school. This is just, this feels right to me. Um It probably took a
good six months before my family, my husband and his family finally kind
of recognize what I was doing and why and he definitely became more
supportive of going back to school and what I was doing. And how much I
really loved it. And he saw me change completely to being kind of this
lost mom trying to figure out what I'm doing. And if I'm gonna do, if I'm
doing it to everyone's expectations to being more in charge of who I am
and what I'm doing. And I don't care what anybody says this is what I am
gonna do because this makes me happy. And so he was very supportive after
that.
Um So how was your, did you have a preeclampsia with your second birth? I
didn't, my second birth I had so I was working as a nurse in labor and
delivery and um actually correction. No, I was in nursing school about to
finish my last semester in nursing school at UN M and the nurses were more
than happy that I was pregnant because they get to fill my belly and all
of that. Um, and we had this woman
come into our nursing class and show us or teach us about hypnobirthing.
And I was like, hey, this is really interesting hypnobirthing. Uh prior to
my pregnancy with him, I was not happy with the first doctor I had seen so
I went to see different doctors before I found the one I really liked. Um
, at that point I'd had two miscarriages um, before I got pregnant with my
son Daniel and after my second miscarriage, um, well, during my second
miscarriage, I went to the er, because I was bleeding so much that my
husband had to take me to the emergency room. And they, um, there was this
man there who was the doctor on call and he was so sweet. He was holding
my hand. Everything's gonna be fine. We're gonna go take you back to do AD
and c um, and my husband was kind of waiting in a chair right before they
took me back and he said, hold on, stop, you know, had me, had them stop
the gurney before I went back to the or, and made sure my husband gave me
a hug and a kiss and reassured us both that things were going to be fine.
And after that, I was like, what's this doctor's name? This guy is
exactly who I want to take care of me. And so I probably went through two
ob doctors before I found him. And so he took care of me through my whole
pregnancy. It was very lovely. He, he gave me a handshake and kissed me on
the cheek. It was like visiting my grandpa every day, you know, very, just
very kind guy. Um So it was a very different pregnancy to begin with
because there was communication, there was a relationship I felt good
about who I was seeing for my care. I was healthy. I wasn't like, I don't
feel like I gained too much weight. Um I wasn't horribly sick with him in
the beginning. Um, I was kind of toying with the idea of having a home
birth because with one of my miscarriage we had, we did see a ma midwife
in Albuquerque who actually I heard on the radio before I got pregnant.
She was doing, um, she was, how would I say she was talking about
midwifery on the news, on the radio news and she was so intelligent, like
she was belting out research and evidence based care about for what she
did and how she did it. And she had doctors coming in challenging her, but
she just knew her stuff like she was very knowledgeable and I was like,
midwifery is pretty awesome. Um But I sought her out at a homebirth
practice in Albuquerque, but that pregnancy ended in a miscarriage. But
after the first pregnancy, my family was like, you know, don't deliver at
home, you're not healthy enough. You need to think about the safety of
this baby and deliver in a hospital. So I was like, ok. Um but fast
forwarding to my nursing education. Um I learned about this hypno birthing
and I was like, yeah, I wanna do that. And so I met with this woman later
and she was like, well, you're a little late in your pregnancy, but we
could probably still do it. So we paid for it. It was kind of pricey. It
was like 800 bucks, but I was like, really committed. I'm like, I really
don't want pain medicine. Um, I really want to do this natural and I think
this hypno birthing is gonna work. And my husband's kind of like, ok, you
know, kind of giving me the look like you're crazy. But, uh, it's your
baby. It's our, let's just do it. And so he did some exercises with me at
home. We listened to music and she came and talked to us and so I went
through this kind of fast forward hypno birthing process. I remember even
giving a folder of information to my doctor because that was part of the
process. He probably was rolling his eyes at me because most doctors don't
like to do that sort of thing. But I was like, this is what I'm gonna do.
Um, and my fam, my husband's family was kind of like, are hypno birthing.
What is that about? And they were kind of heckling me too because I
thought it was a little bit out there. But I didn't care. I was like, you
know, it's gonna work and, and sure enough it did. When I went into the
hospital, I played my music. I had my headphones on you. I think there's
even a picture of me with, um, on the birthing ball kind of swaying back
and forth and the room is dam, like I had a little more control this time
and I liked it. Um, my sister-in-law, my mom was, my mother-in-law was
there. My mom didn't come, but it was very different space than it was the
first time. And I realized I had to say about what I wanted and didn't
want and they still put a Ivy in me. But it was just very nice. I remember
that like soft voice in my, my um, headphones was like, breathe, you know
, very calm. Your baby is opening and coming down like it was just very
like calming. Um And everyone thought I looked very comfortable and
collected and at some point I was like, ok, it's time to push and they
were like, what? So they put me in bed and, you know, I think one or two
pushes and my son was out and they were just amazed that I was so calm and
collected and, you know, the contractions, I definitely felt them and they
really hurt, but I feel like I could handle them. Like I, they were
manageable. I wasn't out of control. And after that, my sister in law even
wanted to borrow my tapes and like she saw me and wanted to do that for
herself. And I'm just like, yeah, it is possible to have a nice natural
birth. The way I want were the contractions different when you went
through it naturally to the Pitocin. Can you think about that? Yeah. Yeah
, they were different. They had a pattern of their own, they were more
manageable, gradual. Like, definitely during the end, like, I don't know.
It kind of reminds me of the oven going bing. Like that last contraction
was really, really uncomfortable like it hurt II I had tears in my eyes
because it was so bad but it was time to push. Like I just remember like I
gotta push now and that feeling of like needing to push like it's just
undescribable. There's all this pressure in my bottom like it just, I just
have to push. And so everyone was pretty happy to have my son out and he
was a big boy who was £9.04 ounce baby. Um, big guy and I'm just like,
where did you fit? Did you tear? Um, I had a little tear like, but not
like the first time. Yeah. So it was, it was an all around better
experience and I really ii I wasn't sad about it. I felt really good about
it and I was like, great, you know, everything went well and I had him in
the summer, like in May. So I had just finished my nursing program,
graduated and then I, you know, I had him in the summer time. That was
nice. Had you been using mineral oil or anything to kind of soften the
perineum? No, I wasn't, I didn't use anything. I wasn't that aware of my
body. Yeah. Nobody even talked to me about that at that time, I don't
think, but it wasn't even the doctor who delivered. I mean, it wasn't the
doctor I've been seeing from my prenatal care who I, who delivered him or
assisted with the delivery with somebody else. But yeah, it was a really
nice delivery. And was it different in the fact that like after the baby
was born, you were, you know, not fainting, you were not on medication?
Like was your bonding experience different?
I think I, I feel like I recovered faster. Um, my husband after I had him
because there's a picture of me after I had him, my hair is to the side of
my makeup so smeared. And um so some of the some of the child preparation
courses talk about when women go through transition like that phase of 8
to 10 centimeters. Like your sensory is heightened, smells, sounds or
you're really focused. And I remember while I was in labor, my husband, I
think he ate something and I was like trying to tell him to get some gum
and he says, oh, you want gum? I said no for you, you your breast melts
and he's like, OK. Um But he also I told him I said I want barbecue for my
dinner after I eat after I had the baby. So he had got me barbecue after I
had my son um because I was starving because I starve you when you're
having your baby. But I felt great. Like the next day I was, I was able to
move around. I didn't feel tired. Um, he latched on to the breast
immediately after he was born and just kind of camped out there for a
couple of days. I never had issues with breastfeeding in the sense that
they didn't latch or I didn't wanna breastfeed. Like to me, breastfeeding
was always normal because my mom breastfed my brother and sister and you
know, she just lift up her shirt and put him on the boob and that was
normal to me. And so as my kids, I breastfed all of them, I always, I
didn't have enough milk for them. I don't know if it's because they were
really big babies or because I was always busy working. But I just, you
know, I always had to supplement with formula. But yeah, I felt great
after I had him. So it was a really different experience from my first.
Well, that's so nice that you had that follow up experience. That was, you
know, a healthier one for you and that, you know, it was more of what you
, what you intended.
Um So in your position as a midwife, what role do you see that you're
playing in the, the birth experience? You know, um obviously you're
keeping the women healthy, you're monitoring things. Can you elaborate a
little bit on that process? I would say as a midwife with working, how I
work with women during their pregnancies is really just being really
supportive. Like, like you said, like, like I've talked to other women
about, there's so many negative, um, how do I say people watching you as
you become a mother and it's not always positive you gain too much weight
, you're eating the wrong foods, but women already know what they need to
do to be healthy. Um, it's just a matter of them making that decision for
themselves. So I try and be more positive, you know, I have a lot of women
who worry about how much weight they're gaining with their pregnancy or,
oh, my gosh, I didn't take my prenatal vitamin yesterday because I felt
bad. Um, like they're really afraid. Um, and it's really difficult to
navigate today as a new mom because there's so much information out there.
Like if you were to Google something, everyone's got cancer and everybody
is dying or, oh my gosh, this is the C section situation. Like they're
just really not fed good information sometimes. And so part of my work
with them is to navigate that with them. Like, well, this is a reliable
source. This is not a reliable source. Um, I also remember how traumatic
my first birth was and I don't ever want anyone to come away from working
with me feeling like their birth was a traumatic. Um, I know that has a
long term effect on them. And so we do a lot of work at the very end
talking about their birth. Who is there? What does it look like? What does
it smell like? What's the worst case scenario? Um, and just really
reassuring that that's their space. They have control. If they don't want
an IV, they can say no, like they have the power to do these things. I
don't think a lot of women know that they have that power when they go to
the hospital because it's just assumed that these are the policies, this
is what we do. This is how we do every time and I tell them, well, you
know, it's not really a policy. Um, the nurses are used to doing it one
way, but it doesn't mean you can't do it another way. And really if we
choose to deviate from what they're used to, you're actually teaching them
another way and they're gonna get really comfortable with normal natural
birth because they don't see that very often and they're like, oh, ok. Um
, but I also know women go into pregnancy and birth, well, specifically
birth with some assumptions that either I'm gonna be there the whole time
or it's gonna be fast like on TV. Um, so I try my best to talk through
those things so that they don't have those assumptions and they're more
prepared for what it could be like or what it is like. Um, because I'm
also a sexual abuse. Uh Survivor, I know those feelings of being not in
control of my body when those things happen to me as a child, like those
things can also contribute to women's experience when they're pregnant. Um
, and so I'm really thoughtful about working with those women who had been
sexually abused or raped at some point because those feelings of being not
in control come back when you're pregnant. And so, um,
you know, again, we talk through what's the worst case scenario that could
happen and navigating all of the tests and the ultrasounds and the
necessity for all of it or not. Um So it's, you know, it's really just, I
feel like a guide and then just someone who helps them feel good about
themselves. Um I definitely feel it's challenging for me because of the,
the word midwife has a lot of things attached to it depending on who is
pushing the midwifery movement forward. So, even though historically,
midwifery has always been our native on our native American communities,
some of the understanding about that person and their role in our native
communities has kind of not been talked about like it used to be. Um And
then you have this very western influence of midwifery, which is the aye
gaskin. You know, a lot of women talk to me about spiritual midwifery that
she wrote. And I'm like, I've never read her stuff. I didn't even know who
she was when I became a midwife. Um And so there's assumption that because
I'm a midwife and I'm working with women in the hospital that I'm very
like, natural, like I have this natural knowledge of herbs and that, you
know, I'm really against epidurals or I'm against fetal testing or
ultrasounds blood test, which is not true. Um, and then you have this
other part of midwifery where it's very professional and licensed polished.
We are, we are a profession of polished educated women who work with
women during not just their pregnancy but through the many changes in
their lifespan and that we are skilled and educated to take care of these
issues as they come up. So there's that part of it too. Um, so it's really
hard sometimes when I have a woman who wants this very natural number
birth and maybe she has some medical issues that wouldn't allow certain
things. And I have to tell her, you know, because of this, you, you
probably should get extra testing or you probably should get genetic
testing done because you are at risk because of these things and some
women get mad. They're like, you know, well, I think, you know, they
assumed I was a midwife and I was gonna agree with them. But, you know,
it's a, it's a fine balance. I can't, you don't come to me because I agree
with you. You come to me because I'm knowledgeable on these things. And
I'm, it's my, it's my job to be truthful with you and give unbiased
information and sometimes they wanna hear it and sometimes they don't, do
you think the um practice of having a midwife involved in the birth
process is um becoming more common or is it still uh uh like a very small
percentage of women that, are you thinking uh like in your ar like in the
hospital that you work in the area that you're in? So the, the hospital I
work, there's always been midwives, always, when I worked as a nurse,
there was a midwife there before I was a nurse, there was a group of
midwives. So there's just been a, a flux of midwives for a short time
while I was finishing school. I, there was not a midwife there. Um And so
when I went back to work in Los Alamos, there was a history of midwifery
in the community. There's also a lot of women who birth at home with um
homebirth midwives. And so I really support homebirth. So it was really
nice to have this kind of community of women already who support midwifery.
Um or they've been someplace where they've gotten care by a midwife like
the um in another state or whatever. But New Mexico in general is a very
midwifery, friend, friendly state. Um There's not as many midwives out of
Albuquerque
as um in some places. So like I'm the only nurse midwife in Los Alamos and
Presbyterian in La Espanola or Espanola Hospital. There's no, there's no
midwives there. Um In Taos, there's some midwives who birth in the
hospital and I believe birth with women in a birth center. Um Las Vegas,
there are a group of midwives but the hospital closed, I mean, their labor
and delivery closed. And so those women have to go to Santa Fe to have
their baby. Um Santa Fe has quite a few midwives who are homebirth in
hospital certified nurse midwives. But I, I feel like I do work in
somewhat of a provider shortage area for women because I get women from
Cuba and from, you know, always sometimes up to, to the Colorado border to
come see me for care because there's no midwife that up that way or even a
hospital close enough to get to.
So you have three Children. So do you want to talk about the third birth?
My third pregnancy, this is the one I was working as a nurse. Um He was
really a surprise. I didn't think we had just moved into our house in San
Alonso Pueblo. And I, I have to honestly say that moment I was pregnant
with each of them. I knew it like my body temperature went up. I felt like
I had the flu like it just didn't feel good. And I was just thinking, I
bet you I'm pregnant. Um and I took the pregnancy test and it was positive
but it was really early. Um And so I didn't really want to be excited
about it because I'd had three miscarriages already and I wasn't ready to
tell anybody. And I think this is a normal thing that women do when you
had so many miscarriages. You're cautious, you're excited, you're somewhat
optimistic, but you're like, well, I'm not gonna get attached until it's
past a certain point and I know this is really gonna stay. And so I was
like that with him and, you know, I was nauseous with him and exhausted
and working as a nurse. But I didn't, it wasn't like bedridden sick type
thing. Um, and I remember telling my husband, you know, we're pregnant and
he's like, great. And I said, well, let's see what happens. You know, I've
had three miscarriages. I don't know what this one's going to be like. So
we'll just, we'll just see what happens. And I got past the 12 weeks and
the 13 weeks and the 14 weeks and I was like, ok, he's going to stay, but
it was definitely a lot sooner than I would have liked because my son
Daniel had just been born, um, like a year before or almost a year before.
So it was really closely spaced pregnancies. Um, and I went through a
pregnancy healthy, didn't have a lot of weight gain, but I also worked a
lot in Los Alamos as a labor and delivery nurse. And I hardly ate and I, I
just was just really busy and before I moved here I had already connected
with a doctor in Santa Fe and had planned to have my baby in Santa Fe. But
he kept like having this false labor pattern at the very end. And he, I
would be because we would go walking in the pueblo. Um All of us would go
out with our strollers and we'd walk my husband and I, but he would do
this like I'd have this contractions and I'm like, ok, it's time with my
other two pregnancies. I never had this false labor. Like once labor
started, I, I had a baby but not for David, like it was a day of
contractions and then they would stop and a day of contractions and they
would stop. And it's like all these false alarms because we had to figure
out who was going to watch our other two if we went to the hospital and my
mother-in-law wanted to be there. Um And so we had to always like, put the
people on red alert that maybe it's today and ended up not happening until
finally, you know, at the, in the middle of the night, probably around
three in the morning, I was sleeping and I could feel these contractions
starting to get strong. And I was like, oh, maybe it's now. And I remember
walking into our living room and just kind of walking to see how these
contractions, if they were real, if they were getting stronger and they
were getting pretty strong. Like I had to kind of lean over something and
breathe through it before it ended. And that's when I finally was telling
I went to get my husband. I was like, ok, it's time these contractions are
getting pretty strong between contractions. I was fine. I was talking
smiling but with a contraction, oh, I was not happy. So, um, a neighbor
actually came and got our kids and my husband and I went to the hospital
and, and it was funny because they have a triage and um, they took me up
from the emergency room in a chair and, you know, I was talking, smiling
and then I get a contraction and then I wouldn't talk. And then I got to
triage and she's looking at me and I already know what she's thinking.
She's like, oh, she's not in labor because that's what I would say. As a
labor and delivery nurse, you're too happy. You're smiling. This isn't
quite labor yet. And I was like, no, this is labor like this is the real
thing. So she was kind of being lax aas with me. She put me in a triage
room was kind of taking her time and then she checked to me and she looks
at me, she says you're 6.5 centimeters and I was like, I knew it. So they
, they put me back in a room right away and they put an IVN. Um, and the
doctor from the night shift was there and I hadn't quite made a plan. I
wasn't as well thought out as my second. I just wanted to have a baby and
she was, she came in with the nurses and was like, ok, we're going to
break her bag of water and I'm like, why she's, she's, and I said, I don't
want my bag of water broken because I knew it would make my contraction
stronger. But she was like, what do you mean? You don't want your bag of
water broken? I'm like, I don't want anything done. I just want to labor.
So she was kind of talking to her nurse looking at them like is this woman
crazy? She doesn't want her bag of water broken like she doesn't, she
really wasn't gonna ask me. She was just gonna do it.
We, we can pause. Ok. Yeah, absolutely. They're already off. But, but so
she, so she was kind of really surprised that I was declining her Amnio I
mean her Amnio toy to, to not let me her break my bag of water. But I felt
good to say no, I was like, oh she can't come just break my bag of water
because she feels like it. Um was trying to speed it up. I think, I think
this doctor was trying to speed it up but I didn't know that it just, I
just don't understand why she just came in and assumed she was going to
break my bag of water. Um, but after she left, um, I labored some more and
it was probably, maybe seven or eight and they were getting pretty intense
and then I just was like, you know what? I don't want to feel this. I just
want to have a baby. I want my epidural. So I asked for epidural. My
husband's like, are you sure? I think you can do this. And I'm like, no, I
just, I just wanna have my baby. I don't, it doesn't really matter to me.
So the anesthesiologist came and he put an IV in my, my hand and it didn't
work. So they put another one in and I remember them like feeling pressure
on my back as they put the needle in and I got somewhat comfortable, but
the epidural wasn't that it didn't work that well. I could still feel lots
of cramping down low. And then, um, and then my mother in law finally came
because she wanted to be there at the birth. It was probably, probably
around maybe 10 o'clock. And finally I was, I felt this really bad
contraction again and my husband's on one, on my right side and my mother
in law is on my left side and they're holding my hand and like, I got
tears in my eyes because it was so painful. And then I was like, I gotta
push now and, and so they call the nurse in and I'm pushing without them
asking me to push and I push and the nurse was like, ok, stop pushing
because the head was just coming. So the doctor came in really quick and
it was a different doctor and she put her gloves on and I probably two
pushes. My son was out and he was, yeah, he was small. He was like a seven
pounder just, it's like I could have sneezed and he would have came out
because he was a lot smaller than my other two. But it was really easy. Um
He got on the breast and you know, it was just a really quick and easy
delivery. It was not like at all like my other two. Um I think back and
I'm like, man, I could have probably done it without an epidural. It
probably would have been faster because it probably stopped my
contractions or kept them, made them slower. Um So it was, it was a really
nice delivery though. It was fast and within two days we went home and my
kids, my boys are like 16 months apart and it was like having twins. So
everywhere I went is like somebody's, you know, strapped into the car seat
, one wants to run away like that for me was like, ok, I'm done having
kids, but I also want really was interested in becoming a midwife at that
point and I knew if I had more kids, I wouldn't be able to do that. So I,
I chose to have my A TB. Um, and I, I didn't quite consult my husband. I
just said this is what I want to do and he's like, are you sure? Isn't
there something else? I'm like, nope, I don't want to have any more kids
and he was kind of bothered that I didn't make him part of the decision,
but I was like, it's my body. I get to make that decision. But we, you
know, my kids have, I, I was that mom for many years going to the grocery
store where I had like a car seat and two toddlers in the, in the stroller
trying to, I mean, in the car in the shopping cart trying to go grocery
shopping like that was, that was me. I mean, I would take them places to
eat or by myself. And it was tough
is when you reflect back on those 33 birth and your experience birthing,
um Do you have any word or phrasing of words that kind of um reflects that
experience to you. I know they were very nuanced and different experiences.
But um you know, there's obviously things that are similar to giving
birth but um is there anything that, like I said a word or a phrasing of
words that, you know, kind of summarizes that for you, summarizes the
experience of, of giving birth to your Children. It's a hard question, but
we're, we um organized the stories and themes. And so it's a way of kind
of like seeing if you already kind of have a theme in mind, you know,
I don't know. I think I would say transformation
for all of my kids. I definitely
hold on. Hey, Kansas, we're, we're recording so any little noise in the
background, they're going to hear it. Yeah. Can you? We're almost done now
and then, and then you can come back in.
I think she's gonna close the door.
Maybe not. Um
There he is. I, yeah, I would say transformation would be a big theme for
my kids. Like I said, I came into motherhood, not first, not wanting to
get married, right. I was going to be this career woman and I'm married
and something I'm having kids unplanned but happy about it and really
coming into myself as a woman, as a mom with my, with becoming a mom with
each of their pregnancies, definitely being really challenged by family
and perceptions about my role of being a woman and a mom um and challenged
in a, in a, in a way that,
that I've, I was, I've been forced to kind of hold my ground, you know,
who am I? What am I about? Um And being ok with being myself if even if
nobody agrees with me, um I feel like the kids have really brought out
that mama bear in me, you know, like I'm very protective of them. Um but
over the years, like I've just, there've been little things that they've
done that have just been sorry.
I guess the word is a blessing.
I mean, it's really easy to get caught up when they're babies and feel
some resentment that you're tired and you can't take a shower or you're
always responsible for them or you can't go to the restaurant because
they're, they're crying or making too much noise or they wanna get down
and play with stuff. But it's interesting as they get older, like, you
really get a sense of who they are and they really enjoy spending time
with you and wanna do things together. It's such a, it's almost like a
role, a role reversal. Um, and they definitely keep me young, like they
all have their own little personality and pull me into things that maybe
wouldn't do. Um, but more or less make me more relaxed and don't, not to
take life so serious. Like my son will say, let's watch this show together
and he likes to really cuddle with me and my other one. You know, he's
still very daniel, still very childlike and likes to go watch, you know,
he's 12 so he'll go watch like kids cartoons still and he's still into
that. And my daughter, you know, she's 15, she likes to go to the spa and
we listen to the same music and we share clothes and I don't think anybody
ever tells you that, that could be the future when you have these kids and
you're giving up so much of yourself in the beginning. Like, it just, I
think that's really unexpected.
And, you know, in my twenties I probably wouldn't be baking bread and
making jam. And maybe I resented that because that was a female role I
didn't quite identify with. And I don't know. Now I really enjoy it and it
feels good to be home. And, you know, there's so many more awful and
challenging things in this world that to build this little cocoon of like
home. Like that's something that I'm responsible for. And some of the
things same things my mom did for me growing up like ceding off my kids
with our feather and our her sage to bless her home and to bless them.
Like those are the things I do with them now. So they're gonna associate
those smells and acts with their childhood and hopefully carry it on with
their kids. And so even though their childhood is going to be different
and not playing in the river and doing all the things that I did, like,
you know, I have the responsibility to show them things and experience
things that I didn't, which is really nice. And, you know, I uh my big
goal with them is just to be loving caring Children and be respectful of
people.
Um My only hope is that they find a career or something that really
inspires them and their passion. It didn't matter what it is. So, it feels
good to me whenever I go visit with their teachers. That that's the, you
know what they say about my kids is they're really well behaved and
they're kind and they're helpful and that's the best I could ask. It's not
so much about the grades or, you know, that sort of thing. It's like, what
kind of people are they gonna be?
Perfect line. Perfect ending line, don't you think? Yeah. Do you have any
questions? Cover the light ground? Yes. Um So good. First of all, I think
you're such a good, there's so many interesting facet facets of your story
that I think it's gonna make it slightly challenging. But I'm so this
might be kind of delicate and it's ok if you don't want to talk about it.
But one thing that you're talking about that I think is really
fascinating, could be really helpful for other people. And something that
we haven't heard at all is, um, this idea that you've been a victim of
sexual assault and how that kind of trauma was revisited. Um, with
pregnancy. I don't know if that's something that you're willing to talk
about. Your own experience having to revisit that just last night.
Actually one of our speakers, um she, she works with women of sexual
assault and trafficking and everything. She works as a counselor. Yeah, we
actually need to connect you too about you. You definitely want to do for
sure. Yeah, you could definitely connect us, um, you know, working through
my sexual abuse and, and I want to be clear, it's not just, I think sexual
abuse is a very nice term. I mean, it was rape. I was raped as a five year
old as a, as a teenager, I mean, early teen and then as a teenager at a
party. Um, and definitely that has impacted me as a woman in my life, not
just as a mother, but just my own self worth. And, uh definitely between
the age of 2030 as I was becoming a new mom, I was very much working
through those issues of anger, frustration with my family and with myself
and with my husband's family, um, and feeling worthy to be married to this
wonderful man who, you know, really has stayed by my side through my, my
own journey of finding who I am. Um I have to say I haven't always been so
kind to him because I've had my own issues that I've had to deal with. Um
,
and even as my role is of being a mother, like I, I have to say, I really
,
I really resented it in the beginning. I, I feel like I was meant to do
something else. You know, I'm a mom. Um There's also some cultural
connotations to being a mother
when I was growing up with my brother and sister. Um, people thought they
were my Children and because I grew up in a border town people, we're like
, oh, she's a teen, she's native American. Poor thing. She's having babies.
She's not ever going to do anything with her life. So that was kind of,
that kind of pride that I was falling into this role of being your typical
d A woman who's not gonna do anything and is gonna have babies after
babies after babies. And I definitely feel like women who didn't know me,
saw me with my kids and assumed either I wasn't married or my kids are not
well behaved. Um But there's this per perceptions about who they are and
who I was. Um And so part of going through that motherhood being, knowing
my history was um kind of grieving that, that childhood that I didn't have.
And then I had to grow up really fast. You know, I didn't have a 21 party.
I was, had just had my baby, had gotten married, didn't have a
bachelorette party when I got married. Like there, there's some milestones
that I missed out on because I had kids early and I resented that um there
is also some family um disputes happening between myself and my husband's
sister that was really not positive for me. I was around a woman who was
very negative and unkind to me and feeling like I had to deal with that by
myself. Well, everyone kind of allowed it kind of fit into this whole like
I'm not worthy to be married to this really nice man. And that because I'm
a mom, I'm supposed to not want things anymore. And that the career that I
maybe had thought I was gonna move forward with is not attainable anymore
because now I'm a mom like this is all I should care about. This is all
I'm ever gonna be. And to me that was really disappointing. Like for me, I
felt disappointed in myself. Um
There's still pictures I look at um from when my kids were babies that I
look really checked out like I'm not really focused and I'm not really
talking and I remember those times where I feel almost out of body like,
oh I'm supposed to smile. So I'm gonna smile now or oh I'm supposed to
really enjoy this with my kids. So I'm gonna act like I'm having a good
time where my husband could see that's what was happening and he would be
like, you know, why are you not enjoying this? And I felt resentful just
like, why am I supposed, am I supposed to enjoy this? This is work, this
is really hard, you know, why am I supposed to smile through? This feels
like work. Um And so my kids really helped me want better for myself and
to really fight for who I am and what I am and to fight for what I want.
Um
And midwifery school for me was part of that transformation because I had
to fight for it. And once I saw the many options, women had
it kind of made me reflect on what I had with my kids and what had
happened to me. And so it was like I was able to feel like I had an
identity outside of being a mom or this poor woman who had kids too early
, right? So I don't know if that makes sense in regards to the to the
abuse I experienced. Um It's interesting that I chose this hypno birthing
as one of my child preparation options because I've heard midwives say
this all the time, like, well, the hypnobirthing allows moms to check out
during their birth during their labor. And I'm like, well, did it allow me
to check out which you do when you've been raped? You check out, you go to
another place while somebody's doing something awful to your body. Like
it's like you can do this to my body, but you can't do this to my mind.
I'm still who I am. Um Did I choose hypnobirthing because that's what it
did for me. And I would say no, I felt every one of those contractions I
was fully committed and part of the decision making about my body and my
birth. And you know, it's, it's not true. I still felt everything I just
felt like I had more control and I remember that because when I work with
women who've been raped in their pregnancy, I know those feelings that
they want control, they didn't have control when this thing happened to
them and that they want trust and building trust with them is really
important. And an example of that is I had a woman I worked with who had a
really bad rape history. She came into my office just shaking and she had
sweat on her lip. And she first thing she said to me was what are you
gonna do to me? And I was like, oh uh let's talk. So what I did is she sat
in one chair and I sat one below her. So we weren't at eye level, it was
below and we start talking about what she was afraid of what this was
gonna look like, how I was going to work with her that we would do this
together and that I wasn't going to do anything she didn't want to do. Um
she calmed down afterward and we worked through her whole pregnancy. And
the woman I saw at the beginning of the woman I saw at the end was
completely different. Like just very proud of herself. She felt very good
about her experience. And you know, I think about my experience and my
birth and my experience with my abuse. Like I know how good it feels to
have that courage and that strength to make those decisions and to feel
like those are supported decisions. And that's what I try and work with
women now as a midwife because I know how important it is and if without
it, it's like, you know, I'm, I'm re traumatizing them and I don't ever
want to do that. It's like I, I don't wanna be the rapist.
Yeah. I think that was a really good, a wonderful answer. Yeah. Is there
anything else you wanted to add before we?
Yeah, you're incredible. You did a great job. I'm gonna hit stop.