WEBVTT 00:00:01.439 --> 00:00:05.497 So we're interviewing Larry stevens, one of the members of the glen 00:00:05.530 --> 00:00:10.037 canyon dam adaptive management program. And there will be a series of 00:00:10.070 --> 00:00:15.316 questions starting with during what years Larry were you involved in the 00:00:15.349 --> 00:00:20.447 Glen canyon dam adaptive management program? And in what capacity As a 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:26.436 graduate student? In 1980 I began researching riparian vegetation in Grand 00:00:26.469 --> 00:00:32.766 Canyon. And In 1982, the predecessor of the Glen Canyon Dam adaptive 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:36.927 management program began, it was called the Glen canyon Environmental 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:42.817 studies program in two phases. One phase started in 1982 that run, it ran 00:00:42.850 --> 00:00:50.850 until the end of 1987. And in 1987 to 1990 was GCS too. And as a grad 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:56.196 student, I was studying the effects of Glen canyon dam on riparian 00:00:56.229 --> 00:01:00.906 vegetation in Grand Canyon. And that put me in a kind of an interesting 00:01:00.939 --> 00:01:04.596 place because as this large environmental program was initiated by the 00:01:04.629 --> 00:01:11.397 Department of Interior, I was the, I was a student of riparian ecology and 00:01:11.430 --> 00:01:16.027 shoreline ecology and the river. And um I was able to run quite a few 00:01:16.060 --> 00:01:19.186 projects and and get quite a bit of support from my graduate studies 00:01:19.219 --> 00:01:25.637 through the program. And I I worked then for the National Park Service 00:01:25.670 --> 00:01:32.947 after my PhD, I became a volunteer and then an employee of the Department 00:01:32.980 --> 00:01:38.837 of Interior. In the later phases of the GCS program took a hiatus of about 00:01:38.870 --> 00:01:44.566 three years or four years and then began as a representative for 00:01:44.599 --> 00:01:50.536 environmental purposes. Environmental voices on the present day glen 00:01:50.569 --> 00:01:55.007 Canyon dam adaptive management program, we call it the A. M. P. So uh so 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:59.227 since 2004 to the president had been on the AMP as both a technical 00:01:59.260 --> 00:02:05.947 representative as and as a as a full representative of the program. Great. 00:02:05.980 --> 00:02:11.106 And while you've been involved in the program all of these decades, what 00:02:11.139 --> 00:02:16.376 research or projects did you work on and what do you think you were able 00:02:16.409 --> 00:02:22.906 to come to understand insights or results from your research? 00:02:22.939 --> 00:02:26.906 It's a long list of projects. Um 00:02:26.939 --> 00:02:31.036 I started out working on riparian vegetation, pursued that for almost 20 00:02:31.069 --> 00:02:35.177 years in in terms of the research, looking at the effects of the dam on 00:02:35.210 --> 00:02:39.767 vegetation right there and vegetation is valuable to wildlife and 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:46.047 recreation, ists and and many other, many other interests. So there's a 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:51.006 lot of interest in how the river affects the shoreline habitat. 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:56.737 Those projects and papers ranged from the natural history of individual 00:02:56.770 --> 00:03:02.547 species, some native, some non native plant species along the river, to to 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:08.126 river ecology as a as a kind of grand grand scheme, understanding how flow 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:14.106 regulation affects the the distribution of shoreline habitats and what 00:03:14.139 --> 00:03:19.807 that means in terms of germination propagation of vegetation. 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:24.177 In the middle of that became part service employee and became interested 00:03:24.210 --> 00:03:29.117 in the endangered species on the river and what their impacts, what what 00:03:29.150 --> 00:03:32.186 the impacts of the dam were on those endangered species. And that 00:03:32.219 --> 00:03:37.476 precipitated the whole series of studies on endangered bald eagles, 00:03:37.509 --> 00:03:43.237 peregrine falcons, humpback chub, southwestern willow flycatcher, funny 00:03:43.270 --> 00:03:48.786 little snail we call the kanab amber snail. Uh And those studies also, 00:03:48.819 --> 00:03:53.517 each of those were multi year efforts with many individuals as a park 00:03:53.550 --> 00:03:59.647 service psychologist for Grand Canyon. What he did was coordinate teams of 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:07.177 researchers. At one point I had a $3 million Geo 00:04:07.210 --> 00:04:10.256 morphology of the river and the effects of the dam on on those topics. 00:04:10.289 --> 00:04:15.867 Through a very detailed studies on the, on the life history of a snail. 00:04:15.900 --> 00:04:21.697 Pretty much everything in between. So very coarse scale to find scale 00:04:21.730 --> 00:04:28.306 analyses and and played a role then in in how the decisions about those 00:04:28.339 --> 00:04:33.546 resources in relation to dam operations got made with the, with the whole 00:04:33.579 --> 00:04:37.127 team of really wonderful researchers to work with. They're both academics 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:40.306 and policy people. 00:04:40.339 --> 00:04:48.339 Let's see. Those studies gave way to uh larger scale studies of of how 00:04:48.750 --> 00:04:53.147 rivers function. So that that precipitated more more interdisciplinary 00:04:53.180 --> 00:04:57.536 research and that's why I've been pursuing that for the last 20 years. But 00:04:57.569 --> 00:05:03.856 also began to understand that these river systems are really fed by small 00:05:03.889 --> 00:05:08.397 patches of the, of the environment and those um small patches of 00:05:08.430 --> 00:05:12.166 environment are quite interesting because they might do a lot of the uh, 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:16.877 might support a lot of the species in at various times of of the their 00:05:16.910 --> 00:05:20.517 lives. For example, tributary mouths. Very important for fish movement in 00:05:20.550 --> 00:05:24.656 and out fish spawning and whatnot springs along the river. Also very 00:05:24.689 --> 00:05:30.366 important for as hotspots of biological activity. And that precipitated a 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:33.587 whole wave of studies. And now I run an organization called the Spring 00:05:33.620 --> 00:05:37.346 stewardship Institute out of the Museum of Northern Arizona and Flagstaff. 00:05:37.379 --> 00:05:43.226 And uh, that has blossomed into a global inquiry into the ecology and and 00:05:43.259 --> 00:05:46.507 improving stewardship of springs. 00:05:46.540 --> 00:05:49.546 I bring some of that expertise to the table when I, when I as a 00:05:49.579 --> 00:05:53.467 representative of the adaptive management work group, can you tell me a 00:05:53.500 --> 00:05:59.007 little bit about what you think the larger purposes of some of those 00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:03.806 studies was what was the reason for doing all of that research on the 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:10.096 impacts of the dam on vegetation or springs or beaches? Yeah. So behind 00:06:10.129 --> 00:06:13.986 all this, I'm also a commercial river runner in a long time Grand Canyon 00:06:14.019 --> 00:06:19.906 devotee. So it's the landscape that inspires me most. So it's the love of 00:06:19.939 --> 00:06:25.777 the land that that really captures that attention and from that larger 00:06:25.810 --> 00:06:33.810 perspective on on landscape. Um, the, the impact of the dam on this, you 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:39.687 know, largely wilderness landscape is just really very intriguing because 00:06:39.720 --> 00:06:45.166 it's such a social circus, so many voices, so many perspectives and, and 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:48.556 it's, it's over the over the decades has become the most heavily studied, 00:06:48.589 --> 00:06:53.116 most intensively studied river on earth and getting to interact with all 00:06:53.149 --> 00:06:58.957 those people, each with their own kind of very particular worldview about 00:06:58.990 --> 00:07:02.306 how things work. It's, it's a, it's a marvelous social environment to be 00:07:02.339 --> 00:07:07.957 able to um engage in try to improve understanding of and and work for the 00:07:07.990 --> 00:07:15.137 protection of it. Did any of the research that you do lead to any 00:07:15.170 --> 00:07:20.087 management decision making that made a difference in those ecological 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:24.906 conditions that you care about? Absolutely. As scientists were not 00:07:24.939 --> 00:07:29.056 advocates, we are we are except for advocates for good science. Um, 00:07:29.089 --> 00:07:36.647 however, the topics we choose to to pursue do eventually uh have an impact 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:40.947 in some cases, so emphasis on the, on the riparian zone, emphasis on the 00:07:40.980 --> 00:07:47.306 role of um, many, many different meetings where um participated in where 00:07:47.339 --> 00:07:50.827 some theme would be taken up. And and so I would have the opportunity as a 00:07:50.860 --> 00:07:54.317 scientist to say, okay, what do we really know about that? How can we get 00:07:54.350 --> 00:07:58.286 it? How can we improve enough of what we want to know about it to be able 00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:02.017 to model and predict what say damn impacts are on that given resource, 00:08:02.050 --> 00:08:08.606 whether it's sand distribution or the shape of of sandbars over time or um 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:12.496 or the arrival of of unexpected species in the in the landscape and how 00:08:12.529 --> 00:08:20.529 the dam will will affect their their populations over time. Uh, so it's 00:08:20.620 --> 00:08:23.156 weaving all those things together. Many of the things that I've studied 00:08:23.189 --> 00:08:29.957 have have been published and and and are cited. So it's uh, the decisions 00:08:29.990 --> 00:08:33.106 that get made about those topics often are falling back on some of the 00:08:33.139 --> 00:08:38.437 research I did, then so much of the funding for the program goes to 00:08:38.470 --> 00:08:43.337 funding research so that we have a more solid knowledge foundation for 00:08:43.370 --> 00:08:48.457 making adaptive management decisions about dam operations. How well do you 00:08:48.490 --> 00:08:55.817 think the program over time has integrated that scientific research with 00:08:55.850 --> 00:08:59.537 adaptive management? There are two different things and they could be 00:08:59.570 --> 00:09:02.626 integrated well or not so well. What's your opinion about that 00:09:02.659 --> 00:09:09.327 relationship? So uh, interesting story there interesting kind of evolution 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:13.217 there is that when we began, it was a shotgun approach to understanding 00:09:13.250 --> 00:09:17.006 the system. The Secretary of the Interior said, I don't want this issue on 00:09:17.039 --> 00:09:23.136 our, on my table, Here's the money get it out of my administration. And of 00:09:23.169 --> 00:09:27.356 course that worked out quite well. Uh it was, it took eight years for that 00:09:27.389 --> 00:09:31.947 to become an environmental impact statement. Uh, the second largest in the 00:09:31.980 --> 00:09:36.687 nation's history. And it took that um, that that it took it completely out 00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:40.217 of the context of the, of the Reagan administration and put it into the 00:09:40.250 --> 00:09:45.746 Clinton administration. Uh, so that, that secretary solved his problem by 00:09:45.779 --> 00:09:51.057 throwing money at it. Um, but initially, you know, there had been 00:09:51.090 --> 00:09:56.616 literally no inventory of, of most of the, of the, of the, of the canyon 00:09:56.649 --> 00:10:02.447 environment is a huge environment. So we really knew almost uh Very little 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:07.707 about. We had some very good early studies on some of the flow and and how 00:10:07.740 --> 00:10:12.197 flooding happened in 1945 Andy Mckee did a really wonderful paper on how a 00:10:12.230 --> 00:10:16.537 flood works well. So, if you're trying to measure flow, the floor of the 00:10:16.570 --> 00:10:19.866 river drops as you're measuring as the flood comes through, because the 00:10:19.899 --> 00:10:23.846 materials are being scoured out and therefore your flow measurements have 00:10:23.879 --> 00:10:27.537 to have to keep in, keep in contact changing river as they're going 00:10:27.570 --> 00:10:31.376 through. Great information. Okay, how do you implement that? Almost 300 00:10:31.409 --> 00:10:34.827 mile long river to understand how flows are moving through and what, what 00:10:34.860 --> 00:10:40.506 can you and can't you actually get to understand given the standing of the 00:10:40.539 --> 00:10:44.226 mathematics and the and the modeling capacity for understanding flow and 00:10:44.259 --> 00:10:49.626 sediment transport, All that had to be discovered in the system in a very 00:10:49.659 --> 00:10:53.026 physical way, how beaches are changing through time. Well, what do you use 00:10:53.059 --> 00:10:57.876 for? How do you measure that? Uh And and some of the earliest measurements 00:10:57.909 --> 00:11:03.146 were simple survey transect at from a point on the beach. Okay, maybe had 00:11:03.179 --> 00:11:06.827 three transits from one point on the beach. That's not really very much 00:11:06.860 --> 00:11:10.827 information in terms of how the whole system is changing and so expanding 00:11:10.860 --> 00:11:15.646 that network of places that are being monitored. Um developing 00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:19.417 technologies that can actually allow you to to map the entire surface of 00:11:19.450 --> 00:11:22.226 the beach and the floor of the river because everything is changing after 00:11:22.259 --> 00:11:27.126 a flood, move sediment through all that had to be discovered here. And I 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:30.787 got to play a pretty seminal role in figuring some of that stuff out so 00:11:30.820 --> 00:11:34.677 that it was quite exciting in terms of the management decision making 00:11:34.710 --> 00:11:42.167 associated with that. Um various you know analyses exist but one of the 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:46.376 most popular one is to log transformed the flow and uh and sediment 00:11:46.409 --> 00:11:50.087 transport relationship which is a power function When you do that, of 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:54.266 course you get these beautiful straight lines for. But if you kind of 00:11:54.299 --> 00:11:59.006 break those data about 3D transform those data, you get this incredible 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:02.726 scatter of points. But in doing that, what we discovered is there's a 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:07.057 point at about 20,000 to 25,000 cfs which is the upper level of dam 00:12:07.090 --> 00:12:12.356 operations that really starts to bump settlement out. Okay, there's a 00:12:12.389 --> 00:12:16.106 starting point for making decisions and about about flow regulation and 00:12:16.139 --> 00:12:20.817 how fast you, how fast the flow fluctuates. Also plays a role in how much 00:12:20.850 --> 00:12:25.976 sediment is brought into the water column and shunted out. So discovering 00:12:26.009 --> 00:12:32.146 those elements and working with people that had the the mathematics skills 00:12:32.179 --> 00:12:35.447 to be able to put those stories together, gave us a way to begin to manage 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:39.787 the dam and literally this is the best managed river now in the world. In 00:12:39.820 --> 00:12:45.106 terms of understanding how flow and sediment interact. 00:12:45.139 --> 00:12:52.366 Can I ask you to step back uh and give us concisely a broader perspective 00:12:52.399 --> 00:12:56.677 on what the larger goal of the adaptive management program is. What's the 00:12:56.710 --> 00:13:04.710 whole point of having created, this is a mp. You want the uh the the 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:10.996 politically appropriate soundbite or the real reason. Alright, well, the 00:13:11.029 --> 00:13:15.486 real reason is to prevent river management from falling into a lot of 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:18.207 litigation. 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:22.026 The real purpose of the program is to bring stakeholders together and have 00:13:22.059 --> 00:13:28.457 them communicate with each other to prevent lawsuits from happening. Um So 00:13:28.490 --> 00:13:31.006 that helps 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:36.557 facilitate the delivery of power and um maybe to some extent helps with 00:13:36.590 --> 00:13:42.467 the continuity of the environmental uh management issues. In what way does 00:13:42.500 --> 00:13:48.797 the existence of the adaptive management program eliminate the likelihood 00:13:48.830 --> 00:13:52.207 of litigation? 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:55.967 When we began in the early 80s, this was a closed door process decisions 00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:00.506 will get made, they get thrown out to the public. The public could sue the 00:14:00.539 --> 00:14:05.856 government about some of those decisions, the big brouhaha happened when 00:14:05.889 --> 00:14:11.077 the Bureau of Reclamation in 1982 1918 1982 decided to rewind the 00:14:11.110 --> 00:14:14.087 generators and up the amount of flow fluctuation that was going through 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:18.476 the river. This is a system that had uh daily tides of more than 15 ft 00:14:18.509 --> 00:14:23.187 moving through the river. So it was incredibly unnatural, bizarre 00:14:23.220 --> 00:14:27.307 environmental transition to subject this, this river in the middle of the 00:14:27.340 --> 00:14:35.256 wilderness to Uh and the by that time, I'll see by the early 80s, probably 00:14:35.289 --> 00:14:39.337 200,000 pretty wealthy Americans had gone through the river on river trips 00:14:39.370 --> 00:14:43.866 and when their guides wrote them and said We need to slow down on this 00:14:43.899 --> 00:14:48.246 slowdown. This flow fluctuation story and limit that to to protect the 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:52.177 beaches of Grand Canyon, a lot of people responded and that's the original 00:14:52.210 --> 00:14:55.876 decision of the Secretary of the Interior and James Watt was responding to 00:14:55.909 --> 00:15:00.766 in 1982. Well, let's put some money on this and get it out of our, get it 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:08.356 over here. Um So By having that culminated in an environmental impact 00:15:08.389 --> 00:15:11.677 statement in 1990, 00:15:11.710 --> 00:15:16.766 and created the context for public involvement. And now any member of the 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:20.067 public can go to the meetings. Any of the stakeholders can sit in the 00:15:20.100 --> 00:15:23.396 meetings. They're fully apprised of all the information available. They 00:15:23.429 --> 00:15:27.876 play they play a role in terms of voting on different uh different issues 00:15:27.909 --> 00:15:31.486 that may come up in terms of dam management. And if you're involved in 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:35.407 that process, it's pretty hard to sue it to sue the process to sue the 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:40.467 government for it. Because you've been a part of the rule making part of 00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:44.026 the the advisement of the secretary, the purpose of that adaptive 00:15:44.059 --> 00:15:48.606 management program is to advise the Secretary Secretary of Interior, how 00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:55.136 best to manage the dam. So, in a sense, you're saying the project is as 00:15:55.169 --> 00:16:01.207 much about generating knowledge to inform decision making as it is about 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:09.240 democracy, public engagement and conflict resolution. Yes, you're so the 00:16:09.830 --> 00:16:14.616 public policy. Uh Part of it has two sides though, because every everyone 00:16:14.649 --> 00:16:18.976 of the stakeholders has an agenda that they don't fully share. And the 00:16:19.009 --> 00:16:21.947 Federal government of course has an agenda that it doesn't fully share, 00:16:21.980 --> 00:16:26.366 but because this is such a controversial river, there are more politics 00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:33.376 than water in the Colorado River, as you know, uh, there are um, on all 00:16:33.409 --> 00:16:38.907 sides, there are agendas that are being pushed, many of which conflict 00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:43.337 directly with each other. And there's lots and lots of conflict here. So 00:16:43.370 --> 00:16:48.457 to, to limit that contact that, to limit that conflict, it becomes an open 00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:52.947 process has become an open process and with many stakeholders that no 00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:55.807 longer have to bang their shoe, we actually had one of the stakeholders 00:16:55.840 --> 00:17:01.766 banging his shoe on the table. Um, but these folks don't have to do that 00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:04.917 anymore. They actually have gotten to know each other, communicate with 00:17:04.950 --> 00:17:09.326 each other, it's just some extent and uh, and they have a context for 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:16.707 being able to air their concerns. So it's your feeling that it has been 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:22.377 overall a successful effort at engaging stakeholders and generating 00:17:22.410 --> 00:17:27.407 information from scientific research to help improve the management of the 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:33.207 river system. Yes, I would say that the science is stellar. Not, not 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:38.877 complete by any means and not fully farsighted enough yet, but, but quite 00:17:38.910 --> 00:17:43.867 quite extraordinary scientific achievements in beginning to understand 00:17:43.900 --> 00:17:47.336 this incredibly complex big river system. That part of it's been quite 00:17:47.369 --> 00:17:54.407 successful. The social side of it um, is it's been fabulous to get to know 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:59.397 all the different stakeholders. Um, the tribes, the, the, the federal 00:17:59.430 --> 00:18:03.117 agency folks, different departments. The Department of Energy plays a role 00:18:03.150 --> 00:18:08.947 here. Um So it's been it's been quite great to be able to engage socially 00:18:08.980 --> 00:18:13.006 with with those folks and and really just better understand their points 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:15.506 of view. 00:18:15.539 --> 00:18:21.967 The real test of of the program however, comes when it comes when major 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:27.707 decisions are made on the on a whole suite of policy. So we just completed 00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:32.576 the second dies after the 20 years of the adaptive management program. 00:18:32.609 --> 00:18:36.917 We've just completed the second D. I. S. Was that a smooth process? I 00:18:36.950 --> 00:18:41.117 don't think any of the stakeholders were were completely pleased with the 00:18:41.150 --> 00:18:47.266 outcome. It maintains the status quo, which is not too surprising, but the 00:18:47.299 --> 00:18:53.306 ability for any any of the scientists or the policy folks to actually 00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:58.836 really push a shift in policy was pretty limited. So that was informative 00:18:58.869 --> 00:19:05.597 for the resistance that the um uh federal bureaucracy has to changing the 00:19:05.630 --> 00:19:10.986 way operations are done was informative. That hasn't changed all that much. 00:19:11.019 --> 00:19:16.367 I don't think so. You said the science has been stellar. So that leads to 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:22.367 my next question. Has there, in your mind been any important science that 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:25.976 should have been done that you wanted to do or you wanted other people to 00:19:26.009 --> 00:19:33.586 do? That has not been accomplished yet much much. When, when the quality 00:19:33.619 --> 00:19:38.006 of the science that has been done has been um quite applied and a lot of 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:41.607 it quite applied. How do we manage the damn force that flow and sediment. 00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.736 Those uh that information is is world class. There's no other river with 00:19:45.769 --> 00:19:51.546 this level of understanding and of monitoring to support that. Does that 00:19:51.579 --> 00:19:56.236 mean we understand how this ecosystem works? No not even not not there yet. 00:19:56.269 --> 00:20:00.717 Uh These are these are questions that will take decades if not centuries 00:20:00.750 --> 00:20:05.197 to really to really answer things like the nutrient dynamics. Who created 00:20:05.230 --> 00:20:09.836 a lake Powell. This second nation's second largest reservoir in the 48 00:20:09.869 --> 00:20:15.536 states anyway. Second largest reservoir, huge body of water 180 miles long. 00:20:15.569 --> 00:20:19.597 And the nutrient dynamics that are going on in the reservoir affected the 00:20:19.630 --> 00:20:25.816 downstream river. And we're just beginning to uh to to to piece some of 00:20:25.849 --> 00:20:30.766 that story together. So it's a it's a big question. Um We have monitoring 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:35.806 data, the scientists that are hired through the U. S. Geological Survey or 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:38.927 have not been ecosystem scientists for the most part. Therefore we don't 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:42.897 get these kind of big big big issue questions like okay we have got an 00:20:42.930 --> 00:20:47.937 ecosystem that's responding over long periods of time to modify nutrient 00:20:47.970 --> 00:20:52.506 inputs and we don't know about that yet. So there's a big arena there 00:20:52.539 --> 00:20:58.246 still to be to be opened up To my disappointment because I left the 00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:02.726 riparian world riparian vegetation world after working on it for 20 years. 00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:08.877 We don't have a model of how the dam uh affects a predictive model where 00:21:08.910 --> 00:21:11.897 that we can understand how the dam affects the development of riparian 00:21:11.930 --> 00:21:19.016 vegetation. That's too bad. That's something that's been quite um uh, 00:21:19.049 --> 00:21:22.986 important because as vegetation grows up in a very profuse way on the 00:21:23.019 --> 00:21:26.857 beaches begins to crowd out campers, the vegetation takes over the camping 00:21:26.890 --> 00:21:30.486 camping areas. And so what's the right way to manage that vegetation with 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:38.519 flows of the dam? And it's also been um, a situation in which the 00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:46.687 there's there's there's a lot of resistance in the part of the water and 00:21:46.720 --> 00:21:53.387 power components to releasing flows for for experimental purposes and 00:21:53.420 --> 00:21:59.806 through Brute Forest. We've we've, over the last 25 years or so, managed 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:02.207 to 00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:08.147 uh, institute planned flooding in the river. But these are small planned 00:22:08.180 --> 00:22:12.617 floods. They can only they only run up to 45,000 CFS, which is the total 00:22:12.650 --> 00:22:17.607 output of the dam, not the spillways. And there are big questions that lie 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:23.217 just beyond that envelope will flow that we can't, we can't address, uh, 00:22:23.250 --> 00:22:28.006 haven't been able to address experimentally yet. 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:34.006 Okay. I think we need to break Here since it's two o'clock and the next, 00:22:34.039 --> 00:22:39.286 we're just coming in in two minutes. Okay, Actually coming in. Yes. So if 00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:42.907 you want to continue, if you want to have, 00:22:42.940 --> 00:22:48.407 so you decide I'm I'm whatever. Yeah, 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:52.467 10 more minutes. Let's see. There, we have more to go with with what 00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:57.907 hasn't been done yet. 00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:02.157 I represent an environmental voice on the adaptive management workgroup 00:23:02.190 --> 00:23:08.137 and uh, and a scientific it environmental voice for me, it's really 00:23:08.170 --> 00:23:11.836 important to understand what species we have in the, in that land, in that 00:23:11.869 --> 00:23:15.506 river landscape, not just the fish, some of which are endangered. That 00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:18.766 attracts all the policy attention. Not just a couple of bird species that 00:23:18.799 --> 00:23:26.207 are again endangered and therefore used for management, 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:30.177 management policy purposes. But what's the total picture of, of life in 00:23:30.210 --> 00:23:33.816 that river? We don't know, we don't know what that is. There are, you know 00:23:33.849 --> 00:23:38.296 , on the order of probably 10,000 insect species, some of which are rare, 00:23:38.329 --> 00:23:44.607 some of which have probably gone extinct in the last 25 years, 30 years. 00:23:44.640 --> 00:23:50.336 And, and so one of the emphasis that I placed on the system outside of the 00:23:50.369 --> 00:23:54.006 program is to try to compile information on the biodiversity of the river 00:23:54.039 --> 00:23:58.536 because it's simply not known yet. That's a big task and there's no 00:23:58.569 --> 00:24:03.486 funding for it. So it's a slow go. But, but kind of group by group were 00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:06.877 beginning to pull together what actually exists in the river corridor. And 00:24:06.910 --> 00:24:11.847 there are many new species we've described, uh, just in the last a few 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:16.857 years, half a dozen new species of insects and molluscs in the river in 00:24:16.890 --> 00:24:21.347 the river corridor. So lots lots still to learn there. And that's another 00:24:21.380 --> 00:24:28.357 big arena of, of, of knowledge to be improved upon which the program 00:24:28.390 --> 00:24:31.407 doesn't pay much attention to. 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:36.957 So you've mentioned that you've been involved since 1980. So you've seen a 00:24:36.990 --> 00:24:42.707 lot of changes come to the program. How would you, um, sort of if you're 00:24:42.740 --> 00:24:48.217 gonna period eyes the adaptive management program, what would be the key 00:24:48.250 --> 00:24:55.006 periods and moments of transition? 00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:02.236 So I actually started in 1974, but studies before that, That's 1974 - 76. 00:25:02.269 --> 00:25:06.437 Period was the first ecological inventory of the river. The dam was 00:25:06.470 --> 00:25:10.246 having effects. We're beginning to see them non native species like 00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:13.677 Burroughs, tamarisk, other things were having an impact on the river 00:25:13.710 --> 00:25:20.506 corridor. And this was the first opportunity to, to begin to describe that 00:25:20.539 --> 00:25:26.177 those impacts. So that early study, what I think was was, was a first step 00:25:26.210 --> 00:25:30.726 in this whole process that was done by the Museum of Northern Arizona with 00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:35.306 steve steven crullers was, was the lead on that 00:25:35.339 --> 00:25:38.407 in the, 00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:46.440 they're one step before that was of course in the uh, Early 60s, 60 60. 00:25:46.980 --> 00:25:52.586 The dates right here, 69, 70, 71, the uh, a really dramatic increase in 00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:55.877 the number of people coming to visit the Grand Canyon through the river. 00:25:55.910 --> 00:26:01.617 So there's uh, we went from just a few 100 people Coming through the river 00:26:01.650 --> 00:26:08.496 corridor in the, in the mid-60s to 20,000 in 1970 by 1970-71. That was 00:26:08.529 --> 00:26:13.336 probably the first big, big step in this process because uh, suddenly 00:26:13.369 --> 00:26:17.986 there was public interest in the, in the river. So then the ecological 00:26:18.019 --> 00:26:21.707 inventory was done highly informative, set the stage for a lot of future 00:26:21.740 --> 00:26:27.236 studies and identified fish species that were rare historic photos that 00:26:27.269 --> 00:26:30.056 could be re matched and looked at the change through time. Really dramatic 00:26:30.089 --> 00:26:33.036 stuff that way. And a lot of basic information on what was living in the 00:26:33.069 --> 00:26:40.586 river corridor In the early 80s. Um, the filling of Glen Canyon of Lake 00:26:40.619 --> 00:26:45.357 Powell was was kind of a big deal because for the first time we had a full 00:26:45.390 --> 00:26:51.006 lake. Okay, so this is the future of water management in the southwest are 00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:55.306 the second largest reservoir is now full. 00:26:55.339 --> 00:26:59.097 Early eighties. Not too much going on a test of the spillway in 82 but the 00:26:59.130 --> 00:27:02.576 , the political political element was rewinding the generators and 00:27:02.609 --> 00:27:08.967 inflaming this now large public that was exposed to the cannon knew it and 00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:12.306 didn't want it degraded. 00:27:12.339 --> 00:27:20.339 What was that? They rewind. The rewind decision was 1918, 00:27:20.539 --> 00:27:26.316 In 1983. Then 19, late 1980 to 1982 the secretary of the Interior threw 00:27:26.349 --> 00:27:30.637 some money at this program called Glen keane Environmental Studies. Uh, 00:27:30.670 --> 00:27:37.597 that coincided with that winter, the 80 winter of 82 83 was the largest 00:27:37.630 --> 00:27:44.746 snowpack that we've had in 100 years. Ah, that filled the reservoir was 00:27:44.779 --> 00:27:48.526 full. They didn't have a way to manage for more than full. I didn't know 00:27:48.559 --> 00:27:52.847 what to do with all the water that came through. Uh, the biggest flood in 00:27:52.880 --> 00:28:00.880 post damn time came through. Just nearly took out the damn uh $25 million 00:28:01.069 --> 00:28:05.707 of damage to the damn it glen canyon. The potential for loss of all the 00:28:05.740 --> 00:28:12.006 dams downstream of glen canyon dam. It had failed really big deal. Every 00:28:12.039 --> 00:28:15.726 it was an El Nino but coupled with a big volcanic eruption. So that 00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:19.786 combination is what gives us our biggest snowpacks. that was probably the 00:28:19.819 --> 00:28:27.306 biggest snowpack since 1880 for the Krakatoa eruption. 00:28:27.339 --> 00:28:35.226 So 80, so that that kicked off this GCS Phase one from 83 through 87. And 00:28:35.259 --> 00:28:39.816 lots of documentation and reports on that. Not so much peer reviewed 00:28:39.849 --> 00:28:42.486 publication, but if you, but some but mostly these are government 00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:50.519 publications From 80s and 88 through 90. Uh 1991. Really uh really 95 00:28:52.589 --> 00:28:59.407 maybe for the the uh the clinic and Environmental Studies, Phase two, 00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:04.326 That study was input of glinting in environmental studies. Phase one 00:29:04.359 --> 00:29:09.387 pointed to the dam is having a big impact on the system. The Department of 00:29:09.420 --> 00:29:13.427 Interior came back and asked, Okay, so if it's having an effect, What are 00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:18.076 the effects and can we modify them modify dam operations? So the Phase two 00:29:18.109 --> 00:29:22.806 was about pursuing those questions. 00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:29.717 The that E. I. S culminated. Also, Grand Canyon Protection Act of 1992 00:29:29.750 --> 00:29:33.496 set the stage for having this be a requirement that the operations of the 00:29:33.529 --> 00:29:38.506 dam not degrade Grand the Grand Canyon River corridor. That was kind of a 00:29:38.539 --> 00:29:44.907 big step there 1995, the IS was was finalized, 1996. The record of 00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:48.526 decision was signed. That set the stage for the adaptive management 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:52.006 program to begin 00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:59.847 much learning much policy uh ah process going on during all those phases 00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:07.236 of course. Um Then adaptive management program gets established in 1997 00:30:07.269 --> 00:30:12.607 and runs for 20 years accumulating lots and lots of really high quality 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:17.796 scientific information, especially on applied applied issues such as how 00:30:17.829 --> 00:30:23.947 to manage the river for sediment and and how to um and how to manage 00:30:23.980 --> 00:30:26.546 endangered humpback chub. Those two questions have been the dominant 00:30:26.579 --> 00:30:29.006 questions. 00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:36.097 And uh so this recent uh E. I. S. That was kind of recapitulating uh 00:30:36.130 --> 00:30:40.026 revisiting all that information and trying to set a new stage for for 00:30:40.059 --> 00:30:44.236 management For the next 20 years. Was was just signed a couple of months 00:30:44.269 --> 00:30:47.867 ago. 00:30:47.900 --> 00:30:51.607 Well two months ago. 00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:55.076 So those are kind of the big steps in the in the in the political process 00:30:55.109 --> 00:31:02.197 , I would say December 2016 is when the i it was either december Janet 00:31:02.230 --> 00:31:04.607 might have been january. 00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:07.207 I can't quite remember when the announcement was in. It was signed in las 00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:15.240 Vegas. It might have been december. Yeah, the temp. 00:31:16.440 --> 00:31:21.897 Yeah. Now interestingly going on with all that you say are the time. 00:31:21.930 --> 00:31:26.036 Another minute. Sorry. Uh interestingly going along with that whole 00:31:26.069 --> 00:31:30.617 political process. Were the ecological surprises every year. A new 00:31:30.650 --> 00:31:35.486 surprise. Um I mean just right from the, every year that we've had this 00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:39.506 program going, some new surprise happened oftentimes it's the arrival of 00:31:39.539 --> 00:31:45.717 some new species. Initially they were, we had bald eagles moving into the 00:31:45.750 --> 00:31:52.026 system in 1983. The first bald eagle was seen in Grand Canyon actually 00:31:52.059 --> 00:31:55.617 living in the river of occupying the river corridor feeding on fish and, 00:31:55.650 --> 00:32:00.367 and being bald eagles were endangered at that at that point and therefore 00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:04.657 having a new endangered species move into the system was a really big idea 00:32:04.690 --> 00:32:07.597 that precipitate a big issue that, that precipitated a whole wave of 00:32:07.630 --> 00:32:12.417 studies about bald eagle. Um, uh, just before that peregrine falcon 00:32:12.450 --> 00:32:15.627 population in grand candidate erupted. They were also endangered at the 00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:20.799 time. Therefore a whole suite of studies on peregrine falcons came about. 00:32:21.440 --> 00:32:23.440 When was that? Well, it was recognized. I think 1976 I did a trip. We 00:32:26.819 --> 00:32:31.806 found only four peregrine falcon nests in the whole, uh, the whole canon 00:32:31.839 --> 00:32:35.967 4-6 x 19 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.006 80 00:32:38.039 --> 00:32:43.867 five or so, we had more than 100 pairs as in part related to a recovery 00:32:43.900 --> 00:32:48.407 program in the rockies. The americans all came into Grand Canyon to feed. 00:32:48.440 --> 00:32:52.177 Um, it's just been 11 species after another. Now, the, these initial 00:32:52.210 --> 00:32:56.776 surprises were, were endangered species or important things like Ducks. We 00:32:56.809 --> 00:33:02.736 had no duck breeding in the, in the, along the river until 1982. Uh, 00:33:02.769 --> 00:33:07.467 mallard ducks began to breathe in the river and now every Eddie and 00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:11.476 there's thousands of eddies in the, in the, in the river system, pretty 00:33:11.509 --> 00:33:14.427 much every Eddie in the upper upper canyon has a pair of mallard ducks 00:33:14.460 --> 00:33:22.407 breeding in it. So um you know that change happened um 00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:26.836 more recently it's been in danger. It's been, it's been non native species 00:33:26.869 --> 00:33:30.197 that begin to begin to arrive. New Zealand mud snail is a big deal 00:33:30.230 --> 00:33:36.806 initially uh and it is quite dominant in the upper upper sections. Uh 00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:42.076 about 2009, the first quagga mussel was detected. Quagga mussel stand to 00:33:42.109 --> 00:33:46.046 change the entire structure of the ecosystem. So these are surprises that 00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:50.847 are uh they could have been anticipated I suppose. But but we didn't 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:52.907 really, 00:33:52.940 --> 00:33:57.726 I don't have that kind of for our vision of the future vision and so these 00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.976 things happen. And then, you know, the ecosystem tracks off in some other 00:34:01.009 --> 00:34:04.306 direction. 00:34:04.339 --> 00:34:08.447 Early on. The policy was well because we understand the river is colder 00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:12.887 now because of the damn than it was in pre damn time. The emphasis was on 00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:17.097 warming the river with it with a temperature control device put on the 00:34:17.130 --> 00:34:22.407 damn to draw to draw surface water off and warm up the downstream river. 00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:27.206 Great $200 million. Now, $500 million. Very expensive undertaking. That 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:30.997 whole discussion though recently has shifted to keeping the river colder 00:34:31.030 --> 00:34:34.796 to keep things like quagga mussel and uh and some of the non native fish 00:34:34.829 --> 00:34:39.247 at bay. So the whole mindset about temperature control. Oh we have to 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:42.807 change that when warm up a huge amount of effort going into warming up the 00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:50.447 river. Now it's well we need to keep the river colder. So uh as these 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:53.847 different surprises have happened, there's been different kind of impacts 00:34:53.880 --> 00:35:00.606 on on basic thoughts about policy. Has there been a change in how um 00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:04.787 participants in the adaptive management program have thought about the 00:35:04.820 --> 00:35:11.807 effort to reshape the colorado river ecosystems, 00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:18.767 I would say behind the program are a whole suite of biases, uh individual 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:22.856 stakeholders or stakeholder groups have a have a have a particular focus 00:35:22.889 --> 00:35:29.296 on their resource of interest and and those have really not changed very 00:35:29.329 --> 00:35:34.316 much. It's been more how to manipulate the other side to get them to uh to 00:35:34.349 --> 00:35:42.006 uh to to to uh to focus on the topics that keep the keep those individual 00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:50.039 biases viable. And as as an example, you know, largely the the folk the 00:35:53.849 --> 00:35:58.727 President program with this L temp is focused on sand and humpback chub to 00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:04.166 resources. Those are two of, You know, 10,000 20,000 different possible 00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:11.597 resources we could look at in the river. Um but uh the program has has has 00:36:11.630 --> 00:36:16.077 kind of migrated to those two points and and trying to solve those 00:36:16.110 --> 00:36:20.626 problems. And actually pretty much has uh now at least at least 00:36:20.659 --> 00:36:25.106 understands how to manage those two resources, but it but it doesn't pay 00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:30.227 attention to the many, many many other other issues that are that, uh, in 00:36:30.260 --> 00:36:37.796 that system and that are important drivers. 00:36:37.829 --> 00:36:42.456 Okay. Okay. Yes, it's perfect for about three minutes at an administrative 00:36:42.489 --> 00:36:45.876 level. What was learned and accomplished during the time you're involved 00:36:45.909 --> 00:36:50.836 at an administrative level. Okay. Not a good question. How would we 00:36:50.869 --> 00:36:53.396 rephrase that? 00:36:53.429 --> 00:36:56.697 Just what was learned and accomplished because I didn't want them to focus 00:36:56.730 --> 00:37:01.097 on one study. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. 00:37:01.130 --> 00:37:04.787 I think the question might be more, what did you learn about these, the 00:37:04.820 --> 00:37:07.697 three legs of the stool? 00:37:07.730 --> 00:37:15.267 That might be more more of a way to get folks to open up? Great. Everybody 00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:22.876 learns all the time about mm hmm. In the windows of policy. Uh huh. 00:37:22.909 --> 00:37:30.909 And the sciences of course erupting all the time. 00:37:32.630 --> 00:37:34.697 Okay. 00:37:34.730 --> 00:37:37.416 What do you think has been the value of the program? So now we're getting 00:37:37.449 --> 00:37:43.506 big overall, What do you think has been the value of the program? The next 00:37:43.539 --> 00:37:46.456 one in your opinion would have been the program's failings and limitations. 00:37:46.489 --> 00:37:50.197 And how might they be addressed in the future? 00:37:50.230 --> 00:37:54.657 And finally, not finally give us 10-15 keywords that are significant to 00:37:54.690 --> 00:37:58.767 the program and its evolution. Okay. And then the last one, who else do 00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:02.247 you recommend that we interviewed for their perspective? So we'll try to 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:09.686 get through those good. 00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:13.387 Are you ready? 00:38:13.420 --> 00:38:17.896 So we were talking about significant changes that occurred in the program 00:38:17.929 --> 00:38:22.427 over the time you've been involved and you mentioned that there were 00:38:22.460 --> 00:38:27.416 changes in science and changes in management. How about changes in the 00:38:27.449 --> 00:38:33.586 social environment of the program over time? 00:38:33.619 --> 00:38:41.619 Yeah, the program began as as a uh internally directed closed program. 00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:47.456 That was if there was advice going to the Secretary of the Interior about 00:38:47.489 --> 00:38:52.186 how to manage the dam that was not available to the public only by 00:38:52.219 --> 00:38:56.847 requesting comments on the rewind. Did the public even find out that the 00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:59.727 that the dam managers were going to increase the amount of flow 00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:04.997 fluctuation and that. But they did find that out and that that uh that uh 00:39:05.030 --> 00:39:09.836 precipitated the initial wave of public concern that then led to the led 00:39:09.869 --> 00:39:13.287 to the entire program. 00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:18.677 They're so engagement of the public is one element that that was was new 00:39:18.710 --> 00:39:25.557 to this whole process. Engagement of the tribes was also quite um 00:39:25.590 --> 00:39:30.367 challenging for the, for the, for the managing agencies. The tribes are 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:34.997 regarded as sovereign states, sovereign nations and they, and they don't 00:39:35.030 --> 00:39:38.876 talk to each other. And so it was only by the invitation of the Department 00:39:38.909 --> 00:39:41.977 of Interior which oversees the Bureau of Indian Affairs that you would 00:39:42.010 --> 00:39:46.166 actually begin to initiate conversations with the tribes finding out which 00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:53.967 tribes um regarded Grand Canyon as a as a, as part of their homeland was 00:39:54.000 --> 00:40:00.477 an important step. And there are About seven or 8 tribes that do that that 00:40:00.510 --> 00:40:05.356 have have it as a key feature of their, of their of their culture, some of 00:40:05.389 --> 00:40:09.236 the several of the tribes have Grand Canyon as their place of emergence 00:40:09.269 --> 00:40:16.356 into this dimension. Um and that that whole understanding is is gives them 00:40:16.389 --> 00:40:19.706 a very great focus on Grand Canyon and therefore they have been engaged 00:40:19.739 --> 00:40:24.856 with stakeholders. There are half a dozen tribes now engaged in the in the 00:40:24.889 --> 00:40:30.077 program, but initially there was no way no mechanism to engage the tribes 00:40:30.110 --> 00:40:33.557 or you have to have discussions about what the tribal values were that 00:40:33.590 --> 00:40:37.816 should be paid attention to in the management program. When were they 00:40:37.849 --> 00:40:44.677 brought into the stakeholder process, GCS Phase one, which was led by 00:40:44.710 --> 00:40:52.710 David Wagner. Um uh he single pretty much single handedly turned the the 00:40:53.619 --> 00:40:58.347 battleship of the Bureau of Reclamation 90 degrees to bring it into open 00:40:58.380 --> 00:41:05.537 social process. Um active science, tribal engagement and uh and a dialogue 00:41:05.570 --> 00:41:13.436 about how to manage rather than a rather than a uh monolithic uh in uh in 00:41:13.469 --> 00:41:18.776 house kind of effort by the federal government. What years was He was the 00:41:18.809 --> 00:41:25.776 he was a GCS program manager from 1980, late 82 until 1997. 00:41:25.809 --> 00:41:29.456 So, uh I'd say engagement of the tribes has been one of the biggest steps 00:41:29.489 --> 00:41:33.856 forward to this program and, you know, for the first time. Um not only the 00:41:33.889 --> 00:41:36.577 program, but the public is actually beginning to learn about what tribal 00:41:36.610 --> 00:41:41.447 values our and they're they're quite different than than the management 00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:46.236 values that are held by any other stakeholder groups Of the 27 00:41:46.269 --> 00:41:51.876 stakeholders that are on the adaptive management program. 00:41:51.909 --> 00:41:57.376 Um Other major shifts there 00:41:57.409 --> 00:42:03.767 on the social side of it. The transition from the GCS program to the AMP 00:42:03.800 --> 00:42:09.436 was was quite challenging. David Garrett became the uh the uh Grand Canyon 00:42:09.469 --> 00:42:14.327 monitoring research center. Chief USgs became a USgs office by about year 00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:18.677 2000 or so. Um but for a while, that was the Department of Interior Office 00:42:18.710 --> 00:42:24.856 that that took over the GCS program. Once you start one of these programs 00:42:24.889 --> 00:42:30.967 , uh this this GCS program engaged many, many people across the southwest 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:38.236 , all of whom began to began um talking to each other for the first time 00:42:38.269 --> 00:42:45.816 began um uh asking questions, some of them doing research, some agencies 00:42:45.849 --> 00:42:52.367 following there. Uh their their interests in the program meeting together 00:42:52.400 --> 00:42:55.367 trying to figure out how to how to how to better understand what damn 00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:59.876 impacts were and and how how if possible to mitigate those on the Grand 00:42:59.909 --> 00:43:02.767 Canyon. 00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:05.847 That transition was was quite difficult because it was an established 00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:12.666 program had been running from 1983 to 1997, 14, 15 years and then became 00:43:12.699 --> 00:43:17.387 uh then it was taken over by a much more formal and higher up federal 00:43:17.420 --> 00:43:24.166 process. Yeah. Many, many people became disillusioned with that transition 00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:29.307 quite a bit of discomfort with transitioning this information system, 00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:32.867 information gathering 00:43:32.900 --> 00:43:38.239 structure that had been developed into the U. S. Geological survey. 00:43:39.500 --> 00:43:41.500 Nonetheless, that's the way that that program went. And the US US as as a 00:43:43.579 --> 00:43:47.997 bureaucracy took it over and and rules the roost. Now, Why was the 00:43:48.030 --> 00:43:54.967 transition in 1997 disillusioning to some people? 00:43:55.000 --> 00:44:01.327 Because it was it was it was a pretty open uh freewheeling program up to 00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:06.497 that point. If somebody had a question uh finding the expertise to answer 00:44:06.530 --> 00:44:13.506 that question was was was there it became constrained after 97 by the by 00:44:13.539 --> 00:44:16.767 the bureaucracies that were involved first Department of Interior and then 00:44:16.800 --> 00:44:21.436 by the and then by the US Geological Survey. So now it's returned to a 00:44:21.469 --> 00:44:29.469 highly bureaucratized kind of information management system. 00:44:31.789 --> 00:44:35.896 What did you learn over the many decades you've been involved? What have 00:44:35.929 --> 00:44:42.686 you learned about the program? And it's what I'll call. It's three stools. 00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:47.296 The science aspect of the program, the management decision making aspect 00:44:47.329 --> 00:44:52.827 of the program and the social aspect that you're also been talking The, 00:44:52.860 --> 00:44:55.677 what have you learned about the relationship between the three the 00:44:55.710 --> 00:45:01.847 revolution, Which ones have been more influential at what times and change 00:45:01.880 --> 00:45:04.956 over time. All right. 00:45:04.989 --> 00:45:12.989 Uh If the three legs of this adaptive management stool are um 00:45:13.489 --> 00:45:20.157 policy science and social process 00:45:20.190 --> 00:45:23.896 when I started, of course I was wrapping up my master's degree. I had no 00:45:23.929 --> 00:45:28.526 more idea of how the government worked than any other american does the 00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:35.066 Department of Interior houses uh together the National Park Service which 00:45:35.099 --> 00:45:39.077 defends the integrity of natural landscapes with the Bureau of Reclamation 00:45:39.110 --> 00:45:44.657 , which is, was at the time the um, you know, not only managing the dam, 00:45:44.690 --> 00:45:48.267 but also managing marketing and making money off of the off of the process 00:45:48.300 --> 00:45:54.117 as well as the Bureau of Indian Affairs, the Fish and Wildlife Service and 00:45:54.150 --> 00:45:59.666 uh, and other other other agencies within the department. These agencies 00:45:59.699 --> 00:46:03.936 have directly conflicting mandates and yet they're all being managed as 00:46:03.969 --> 00:46:09.236 one. So, understanding what those conflicts were, how they, how the 00:46:09.269 --> 00:46:12.657 Department of Interior has to resolve them as quite a learning process 00:46:12.690 --> 00:46:20.316 there. And um, um, having uh policy discussions all the way up the food 00:46:20.349 --> 00:46:24.307 chain from our local Grand Canyon effort all the way to the Secretary of 00:46:24.340 --> 00:46:28.046 the Interior's office has been quite informative, seeing how decisions 00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:33.327 actually get made and conflicts get either resolved or swept under the 00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:37.546 carpet. Um, 00:46:37.579 --> 00:46:41.807 the science side of it, uh, much more comfortable with. It's been a pretty 00:46:41.840 --> 00:46:48.387 continuous uh, the process of putting out ideas, having those kicked 00:46:48.420 --> 00:46:53.367 around by various people stolen by some agencies. And uh, that's that's 00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:58.186 kind of the way some of this intellectual freedom is, is our intellectual 00:46:58.219 --> 00:47:01.617 property is not really respected much in these kind of discussions. So, an 00:47:01.650 --> 00:47:05.956 idea that seems like a really great kind of cool thing to study often gets 00:47:05.989 --> 00:47:10.137 taken up by some agency who wants to pursue that and has the, has the 00:47:10.170 --> 00:47:15.307 power to be able to take over the question. That's the way that works. But 00:47:15.340 --> 00:47:20.747 uh, but at least it's it's this uh proposition of ideas and and thinking 00:47:20.780 --> 00:47:25.236 about things and asking questions, having those kicked around a bit and 00:47:25.269 --> 00:47:31.867 and seeing the way that those become uh programs of study. 00:47:31.900 --> 00:47:34.986 That that that that makes pretty good sense in terms of the flow of 00:47:35.019 --> 00:47:39.046 science. 00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:42.157 There have been surprises in the science world that haven't been pursued 00:47:42.190 --> 00:47:47.097 enough necessarily. And some some that we don't have the experimental 00:47:47.130 --> 00:47:52.936 capacity right now to to to uh to achieve. For example, anybody who has 00:47:52.969 --> 00:47:56.327 ever seen a flooding river sees all the driftwood out in the middle of the 00:47:56.360 --> 00:48:00.677 river. It wasn't until we actually ran our first experimental flood in 00:48:00.710 --> 00:48:04.546 1996. And we understood that the way that happens is that currents are 00:48:04.579 --> 00:48:08.836 being directed up against the shore. That either brings sediment or tear 00:48:08.869 --> 00:48:12.057 sediment away from the shore and bring, and then the current re circulates 00:48:12.090 --> 00:48:14.916 back out to the middle. So we're looking at a flooding river and see a 00:48:14.949 --> 00:48:17.557 line of driftwood running down the middle of the river. It's because 00:48:17.590 --> 00:48:20.776 there's a counter current circulation pattern that develops at a certain 00:48:20.809 --> 00:48:26.727 threshold in in uh, in its rivers, rivers specific. Certainly. So that was 00:48:26.760 --> 00:48:31.597 that, that was, you know, quantified and actually measured in Grand Canyon 00:48:31.630 --> 00:48:36.747 for the first time, hasn't been looked at really very much since many of 00:48:36.780 --> 00:48:43.577 those kind of surprises uh scientific uh ah ha, moments have come out of 00:48:43.610 --> 00:48:48.876 the program. Can you think of any others that we want to like Mark for 00:48:48.909 --> 00:48:53.506 posterity or ask other members of the program about scientific surprises? 00:48:53.539 --> 00:48:59.276 Yes. Um Well, I'll give you a couple examples. Some some scientific 00:48:59.309 --> 00:49:03.497 surprises. Our science is really, you know, it's a debate about the nature 00:49:03.530 --> 00:49:08.887 of reality. But the other side of it is it's a personal exploration of our 00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:13.836 of our biases and our beliefs and when something goes against your belief 00:49:13.869 --> 00:49:19.037 and yet the data conclusively show you that you're wrong or or just 00:49:19.070 --> 00:49:23.887 misguided. Um Then it's the role of the scientists to actually accept that 00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:30.017 information and see what they see what that means and and explore it. One 00:49:30.050 --> 00:49:35.436 of the huge dilemmas in this in this system has been uh, how the river 00:49:35.469 --> 00:49:40.956 should be managed for humpback chub. And based on information about the 00:49:40.989 --> 00:49:46.316 fish in the upper Colorado River basin chubb appeared to be a mainstream 00:49:46.349 --> 00:49:49.776 spawning fish up in the upper Colorado River basin where there are five 00:49:49.809 --> 00:49:55.677 populations that are of interest all declining in Grand Canyon. It is not 00:49:55.710 --> 00:50:00.287 a mainstream spawning fish. It spawns in the tributaries and every place 00:50:00.320 --> 00:50:03.767 we find spawning going on is typically associated with some kind of 00:50:03.800 --> 00:50:07.296 tribute or either a tributary coming in like the little colorado river or 00:50:07.329 --> 00:50:11.727 a spring coming up and the fish congregated these at these, at these water 00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:19.267 sources. So, um one of the persistent biases, how can we manage the river 00:50:19.300 --> 00:50:24.447 to best support humpback chub. Well, if they're breeding is really going 00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:29.447 on in the tributaries, that's not as important a question as how can we 00:50:29.480 --> 00:50:32.657 make sure that they're breeding successful in the tributaries gradually? 00:50:32.690 --> 00:50:38.387 That's uh that's that's uh been more more clearly recognized in Grand 00:50:38.420 --> 00:50:42.247 Canyon, still not in the upper basin yet, we don't really know what the, 00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:45.686 how they're breeding in the upper basin. It's hard to believe it's even 00:50:45.719 --> 00:50:52.566 the same fish, but um coupled with that is the role of of, of rainbow 00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:56.896 trout. Rainbow trout are in the clear water reaching the upper portion of 00:50:56.929 --> 00:51:02.006 the river. Rainbow trout are usually insect bores or shrimp salad feeders 00:51:02.039 --> 00:51:10.039 , but they can occasionally feed on humpback chub and other larval fish. 00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:14.876 One of the big dialogues that's going on scientifically has been. So if 00:51:14.909 --> 00:51:18.776 the trout are in the upper upper river and they're moving down into the 00:51:18.809 --> 00:51:25.006 lower river, are they posing a threat to humpback child by eating their 00:51:25.039 --> 00:51:30.126 larvae? And this, the discussion on that's got back and forth and back and 00:51:30.159 --> 00:51:35.316 forth for 30 years? Um uh It wasn't until the resolution of the, of the 00:51:35.349 --> 00:51:38.456 law, one of the few lawsuits that was ever kind of launched within this 00:51:38.489 --> 00:51:46.489 program where the judge actually his, his brief on the, on the, on the, on 00:51:47.170 --> 00:51:51.157 the trial said there's no relationship between humpback chub and rainbow 00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:55.267 trout because the populations are not, they're not changing in any kind of 00:51:55.300 --> 00:52:01.896 concerted uh consistent way the chub population was rising as the trout 00:52:01.929 --> 00:52:06.367 population was rising. So therefore it's not predation of trout on chub 00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:12.666 that is affecting the, affecting that endangered fish. The trout are also 00:52:12.699 --> 00:52:15.997 non native, so that throws that that element in the trout are also highly 00:52:16.030 --> 00:52:20.177 valued by the anglers up in the upper portion of the river above lees 00:52:20.210 --> 00:52:25.907 Ferry, whereas the big industry and the failure of that of that industry 00:52:25.940 --> 00:52:29.566 affects a lot of people or the changing track conditions up there are 00:52:29.599 --> 00:52:33.747 important to them. Would it be accurate to say that one of the reasons 00:52:33.780 --> 00:52:39.316 that that question, that scientific question about the potential impact 00:52:39.349 --> 00:52:43.936 rainbow trout on humpback chub? That the reason that that went on for so 00:52:43.969 --> 00:52:47.827 long was so controversial is that you have one set of stakeholders 00:52:47.860 --> 00:52:51.057 interested in the chub and another set of stakeholders interested in the 00:52:51.090 --> 00:52:57.816 trout and they weren't integrating their studies. They were seeking 00:52:57.849 --> 00:53:02.827 research that would validate their interests. Yeah, I would say certainly 00:53:02.860 --> 00:53:08.526 biases on the part of both groups are or what dominated the way the 00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:12.916 research was conducted. Uh in fact with a chub, Four different agencies 00:53:12.949 --> 00:53:18.666 were researching the chub doing very different things with the chub. And 00:53:18.699 --> 00:53:22.646 only through this process in the later stages of GCS was that information 00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:26.026 beginning to be brought together and now it's pretty well integrated, but 00:53:26.059 --> 00:53:31.137 but still the biases, uh the kind of embedded biases of the program are 00:53:31.170 --> 00:53:34.486 everywhere apparent there because the trout are non native and because 00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:37.626 they're quite abundant, they must be bad and must have an impact on the 00:53:37.659 --> 00:53:42.827 chub. And um and all the data actually pointing the opposite directions 00:53:42.860 --> 00:53:47.916 that the chub don't really uh not much influenced by the, by rainbow trout. 00:53:47.949 --> 00:53:51.566 Brown trout is another non native fish in the system. Uh They do have a 00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:56.106 negative impact on and nobody disagrees about that. But the role of 00:53:56.139 --> 00:54:04.139 rainbow trout has been much subject to, I say agency bias and and and that 00:54:05.079 --> 00:54:08.896 really shapes the way the research takes place to, which is the further 00:54:08.929 --> 00:54:14.606 embeds the the condition rather than resolving it. 00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:19.686 So much of this work could be done experimentally. And one of my 00:54:19.719 --> 00:54:22.267 disappointments with the program is that we've we've never gotten an 00:54:22.300 --> 00:54:24.506 infield 00:54:24.539 --> 00:54:29.086 experimental laboratory set up at least very where we can actually test 00:54:29.119 --> 00:54:32.307 some of these very basic ideas without having to subject the entire river 00:54:32.340 --> 00:54:37.776 to a flow regime to see whether or not whether or not the um, the issue is 00:54:37.809 --> 00:54:45.006 something that can be managed with float with flows. 00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:49.907 Okay, let me move to the next question. 00:54:49.940 --> 00:54:54.867 What can I have one more thing there. We talked about science. We talked 00:54:54.900 --> 00:54:59.066 about policy. I didn't talk much about the social leg of this. The the, 00:54:59.099 --> 00:55:04.477 the insight that I've had about that was that every person involved in the 00:55:04.510 --> 00:55:09.217 program is trying to do their best. Every person there is working hard to 00:55:09.250 --> 00:55:14.666 support the themes and the and the constituents that they, that they 00:55:14.699 --> 00:55:21.447 service that they serve and trying to do their best to, to um to have 00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:25.467 their interests well represented, strongly represented. And so that's been 00:55:25.500 --> 00:55:30.807 an insight, you know, as a naive outsider, you might think good, bad, good 00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:34.307 , evil, whatever the, whatever the interest might be, environmental 00:55:34.340 --> 00:55:39.756 interests against economic interest. Um uh there there must be enemies 00:55:39.789 --> 00:55:42.847 here that are that are, 00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:48.026 you know, irreconcilable differences going on. That's not the case. Almost 00:55:48.059 --> 00:55:51.767 everybody that's been involved in the program that I've met is really 00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:56.006 working hard to ensure that the program works that their and their 00:55:56.039 --> 00:56:00.836 interests are well represented. Um and that by doing so in an adaptive 00:56:00.869 --> 00:56:08.869 management context, that those interests do get vetted fairly, 00:56:09.730 --> 00:56:14.537 which documents and reports, Are you aware of that have been produced over 00:56:14.570 --> 00:56:19.206 the years that you think are particularly important to keep on the 00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:25.586 forefront of our memory that remain relevant provides some historical 00:56:25.619 --> 00:56:31.387 precedent that was important. Okay, so, in the, in the pre glen canyon dam 00:56:31.420 --> 00:56:34.697 adaptive management program literature 00:56:34.730 --> 00:56:42.197 Woodberry 1959 is a ecological survey of Glen Canyon before it was dammed. 00:56:42.230 --> 00:56:49.256 Really important. First, um look at the ecology of the, of that of the 00:56:49.289 --> 00:56:51.896 river system 00:56:51.929 --> 00:56:55.447 Stanton's book in 181,890. 00:56:55.480 --> 00:56:59.236 Also important in that he presented photographs of what the river looked 00:56:59.269 --> 00:57:06.767 like 100 years before uh, before the this this era of flow management took 00:57:06.800 --> 00:57:14.800 place. So uh 1976, the Carruthers at all report on the Ecology of Grand 00:57:15.019 --> 00:57:20.396 Canyon of the River Corridor in Grand Canyon. 00:57:20.429 --> 00:57:26.066 Many, many papers came out of that, including turner and carpets, checks 00:57:26.099 --> 00:57:30.657 photo re matching and looking at the riparian, vegetation changes pre post 00:57:30.690 --> 00:57:36.796 , pre versus post damn. Uh 00:57:36.829 --> 00:57:44.327 in that era, papers beginning to identify uh papers by bob Dolan, for 00:57:44.360 --> 00:57:49.037 example, beginning to identify the effects of the dam on geo morphology of 00:57:49.070 --> 00:57:51.497 the river. 00:57:51.530 --> 00:57:56.856 And And I would say the the the final reports for the Glynn County 00:57:56.889 --> 00:58:01.287 Environmental Studies Phase one and Phase two, both loaded with really 00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:05.617 great insights as to from this shotgun science approach. It was was taken 00:58:05.650 --> 00:58:11.186 up how these many, many different topics are beginning to play out and by 00:58:11.219 --> 00:58:14.876 reading through those one can begin to see patterns that have actually set 00:58:14.909 --> 00:58:20.086 the stage for for pretty much all the science we're looking at now. 00:58:20.119 --> 00:58:25.557 That brings us up through 1990, about 1990, Grand Canyon Protection Act. 00:58:25.590 --> 00:58:32.316 Very important, influential policy uh Document that came out in 1992, uh 00:58:32.349 --> 00:58:38.467 requiring that dam operations not negatively influence the 00:58:38.500 --> 00:58:41.686 the Grand Canyon. 00:58:41.719 --> 00:58:46.106 The I. S. Document, 1996 great compendium of all that information into, 00:58:46.139 --> 00:58:52.327 into 11 document for the purposes of setting up the adaptive management 00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:58.247 program 00:58:58.280 --> 00:59:02.327 stepping forward from then, it's been quite a quite a um, you know, many, 00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:08.486 many different research topics. There is a Um state of knowledge of the 00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:12.586 Grand Cannon document produced in 2005? 00:59:12.619 --> 00:59:17.947 It was, it was a pretty good summary of the more recent research. Up to 00:59:17.980 --> 00:59:22.227 that point, each 00:59:22.260 --> 00:59:27.907 of the science topics that's, that's studied by, by the US geological 00:59:27.940 --> 00:59:32.086 survey undergoes a 00:59:32.119 --> 00:59:39.617 Pep stands for uh protocol evaluation panel review. So those are, those 00:59:39.650 --> 00:59:43.427 are important documents for each of the themes of science being being 00:59:43.460 --> 00:59:51.387 taken up. Those are done about every five years or so. 00:59:51.420 --> 00:59:57.177 A paper by Mellis and 00:59:57.210 --> 01:00:00.177 and 01:00:00.210 --> 01:00:06.776 Covid Lovett Melanson Levitch on the results of adaptive management 01:00:06.809 --> 01:00:10.456 effects of adaptive management of Grand Canyon. The success of that of the 01:00:10.489 --> 01:00:15.157 program was a 10 year analysis of how of how successful the adaptive 01:00:15.190 --> 01:00:18.427 management program was in terms of the key resources that are being 01:00:18.460 --> 01:00:23.077 monitored. That's that's an important one. 01:00:23.110 --> 01:00:27.677 And then the the L temp document is, 01:00:27.710 --> 01:00:31.876 tries to summarize that information as well. 01:00:31.909 --> 01:00:35.586 There are, there are uh, this again is the best studied river in the world. 01:00:35.619 --> 01:00:39.617 So it's got literally thousands of peer reviewed documents, tens of 01:00:39.650 --> 01:00:47.407 thousands of agency policy reports and white papers vast. So that makes it 01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:52.097 really difficult for anybody to really um, it would take several years 01:00:52.130 --> 01:00:56.066 actually to go through all that literature I think and and really and 01:00:56.099 --> 01:01:02.177 really be able to use it in decision making. 01:01:02.210 --> 01:01:06.137 Well perhaps you can cut through all the static of those hundreds and 01:01:06.170 --> 01:01:13.776 thousands of research reports and tell us big picture what you think the 01:01:13.809 --> 01:01:19.936 value of the program has been and is today. Should we continue the program 01:01:19.969 --> 01:01:25.836 ? And why? Good question. Um this whole theme of adaptive management is 01:01:25.869 --> 01:01:31.447 something that Karl Walters and and others began to put forth in the 70s. 01:01:31.480 --> 01:01:39.480 Their conceptualization of adaptive management was that was based on the 01:01:39.610 --> 01:01:42.617 understanding that ecosystems are too complicated for humans to be able to 01:01:42.650 --> 01:01:46.586 manage them and that that really we should use science in the experimental 01:01:46.619 --> 01:01:50.646 context to be able to improve our decision making. If experiments didn't 01:01:50.679 --> 01:01:55.376 work, then reverse our policy, our our management strategy and follow a 01:01:55.409 --> 01:02:00.247 lead. That makes more sense in terms of what the science tells us. So that 01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:04.977 form of adaptive management is not what we have. We have an adaptive 01:02:05.010 --> 01:02:12.486 management strategy that is based on stakeholder concerns and how to how 01:02:12.519 --> 01:02:15.977 to balance stakeholder concerns rather than how the ecosystem itself is 01:02:16.010 --> 01:02:20.396 functioning as an ecosystem Ecologist. I always go back to the original 01:02:20.429 --> 01:02:25.606 kind of hope that we'll be managing the ecosystem for its for its natural 01:02:25.639 --> 01:02:29.626 functioning and and uh and trying to understand how much how many of the 01:02:29.659 --> 01:02:35.296 goods and services we can extract from it without harming it. Um and the 01:02:35.329 --> 01:02:39.517 timing of that kind of extraction, but that's that's not the way the 01:02:39.550 --> 01:02:44.327 program is structured, It's about social, social engagement of many 01:02:44.360 --> 01:02:48.106 stakeholders, all of whom have some vested interest in some portion of the 01:02:48.139 --> 01:02:54.236 resources and hoping that all that dialogue combined will somehow work 01:02:54.269 --> 01:02:57.227 towards an effective management system that supports the ecosystem, but 01:02:57.260 --> 01:03:04.456 also supports the, the um subsidy, the subsidies that are being extracted 01:03:04.489 --> 01:03:08.267 from it. 01:03:08.300 --> 01:03:11.597 This is probably the, the most successful adaptive management program in 01:03:11.630 --> 01:03:17.166 the world. So therefore that alone is 01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:19.267 relevant. 01:03:19.300 --> 01:03:24.577 The social program gets us some way down the road towards effective 01:03:24.610 --> 01:03:29.727 ecosystem management leads many things off to the off to the side, but but 01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:34.316 we have been able to engage members of the, of the population that had and 01:03:34.349 --> 01:03:39.847 cultures that have not previously have had a voice. So half a dozen tribes 01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:44.526 that are involved in this program have a voice and have, have had great 01:03:44.559 --> 01:03:51.236 influence on the way the programs developed, for example, the uh, uterus 01:03:51.269 --> 01:03:58.657 taken tribes in the, in the, in the process. I feel it's wrong to for 01:03:58.690 --> 01:04:03.467 there to be a lot of loss of life in the system. Fish, aquatic, especially 01:04:03.500 --> 01:04:09.256 aquatic life, which is really important to zuni and Hopi tribes. Um, and 01:04:09.289 --> 01:04:12.657 that therefore 01:04:12.690 --> 01:04:18.927 programs that seek to control, say rainbow trout in the, in the a portion 01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:23.776 of the canyon where they're not commercially fished it, uh, should, should 01:04:23.809 --> 01:04:30.217 simply not kill a trout. The chart should be, um, um, if they're, if 01:04:30.250 --> 01:04:33.736 they're being managed, they shouldn't be killed because death there is not 01:04:33.769 --> 01:04:37.577 appropriate that these are the birthplaces of their culture. So they don't 01:04:37.610 --> 01:04:40.577 want to see fish massacre is going on in their, in their, in their 01:04:40.610 --> 01:04:45.166 homeland, at the very heart of their homelands. So that, that's actually 01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:49.017 had a huge impact on the way the fisheries program has been, uh, 01:04:49.050 --> 01:04:53.387 structured. And so having that indigenous information coming to the 01:04:53.420 --> 01:04:57.427 program has been really important. And uh, something we certainly 01:04:57.460 --> 01:05:02.756 respected uh, very deeply, 01:05:02.789 --> 01:05:05.157 um, 01:05:05.190 --> 01:05:09.807 from the standpoint of the, of the program working it works, it stumbles 01:05:09.840 --> 01:05:14.416 along pretty well. This is such a process of sitting in the chair. You 01:05:14.449 --> 01:05:18.617 know, the only way it works is you have to sit in the chair for two days 01:05:18.650 --> 01:05:23.747 every two or three months and listen carefully what's being said and try 01:05:23.780 --> 01:05:27.276 to pose questions that are going to actually change the way the rest of 01:05:27.309 --> 01:05:31.327 the group sees the, sees the process going and takes kind of a lot of 01:05:31.360 --> 01:05:36.997 diligence to do that. Uh, and my hat's off to everybody who's been with 01:05:37.030 --> 01:05:39.646 the program and actually going through that process because it just takes 01:05:39.679 --> 01:05:44.526 a lot of patience and, and uh, and attention to the, the quality of the 01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:47.456 program. 01:05:47.489 --> 01:05:53.956 So that, that the success of the program relies on that. I think the um, 01:05:53.989 --> 01:05:58.427 other advantages of the program are certainly that has brought to light so 01:05:58.460 --> 01:06:03.206 much information about, about the management of a constrained river, um, 01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:06.697 geologically constrained river. These are places that are, you know, 01:06:06.730 --> 01:06:09.396 they're, these are the places that dams are usually placed. So we've 01:06:09.429 --> 01:06:16.927 actually lost enormous volumes of the earth to impoundment without ever 01:06:16.960 --> 01:06:20.057 understanding how they work ecologically. So there's been a great, great 01:06:20.090 --> 01:06:24.927 advantage to to scientific understanding of these kind of habitats. Large 01:06:24.960 --> 01:06:30.646 deep canyons are at risk everywhere in the world because of dams. 01:06:30.679 --> 01:06:37.586 So those are scientifically policy wise and socially, I think they're 01:06:37.619 --> 01:06:43.146 strong advantages to having having the program go on and with the ultimate 01:06:43.179 --> 01:06:48.997 decision that puts in place this This structure for the next 20 years 01:06:49.030 --> 01:06:51.447 anyway. 01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:54.756 But I will say one more thing there though, that the success of the 01:06:54.789 --> 01:06:59.017 program relies on the Secretary of the Interior being an active part of 01:06:59.050 --> 01:07:03.336 the program. Secretary Secretary Secretary of the Interior usually 01:07:03.369 --> 01:07:07.276 designates somebody from his office to come in one of his undersecretaries 01:07:07.309 --> 01:07:11.586 to come in and oversee to be the recipient of the of the advice from the 01:07:11.619 --> 01:07:17.197 program. When the Secretary is weak or uninterested that breaks down and 01:07:17.230 --> 01:07:22.077 the program suffers. So because this is a federal advisory committee, it 01:07:22.110 --> 01:07:26.046 requires that strong active engagement with the Department of Interior. 01:07:26.079 --> 01:07:31.847 Can you think of examples in the past when that 01:07:31.880 --> 01:07:37.747 when that process has broken down because less 01:07:37.780 --> 01:07:42.666 effective participation from the Department of Interior. Many examples, 01:07:42.699 --> 01:07:48.356 Yeah. As the administration's come and go the interest on the part of the 01:07:48.389 --> 01:07:52.947 of the Secretary of the Interior reflects the uh the interest in the in 01:07:52.980 --> 01:07:57.876 the president in these um complicated environmental and economic 01:07:57.909 --> 01:08:05.909 interactions. And so um um so when that designate or the or the Secretary 01:08:08.210 --> 01:08:13.467 of the Interior themselves are disinterested. We end up with a um well 01:08:13.500 --> 01:08:17.027 we'll just let the stakeholders choose what they want to look at. And that 01:08:17.060 --> 01:08:24.256 that uh that situation uh prevailed for the first eight years of the of 01:08:24.289 --> 01:08:28.347 the program, eight or 10 years of the program uh in which stakeholders 01:08:28.380 --> 01:08:32.496 said, well I want to study chub because I'm a fish and wildlife service in 01:08:32.529 --> 01:08:37.857 um representative and chub or endangered species. I want to study trout 01:08:37.890 --> 01:08:42.036 because I'm an angler, I represent the anglers, I want trout to be there. 01:08:42.069 --> 01:08:45.637 If there weren't strong voices for a resource, then they simply didn't get 01:08:45.670 --> 01:08:49.546 on the christmas tree. These are kind of research ornaments on a on a tree 01:08:49.579 --> 01:08:53.357 , but we never get to understand what the tree was like. So we're putting 01:08:53.390 --> 01:08:59.527 these pieces together or building a maybe we're building a house but not 01:08:59.560 --> 01:09:02.147 from the foundation up, we're starting on the third floor and trying to 01:09:02.180 --> 01:09:04.656 understand what the house is gonna look like by the time we get to the 01:09:04.689 --> 01:09:12.689 ground. So um so with weak oversight, we end up with a complicated um kind 01:09:12.779 --> 01:09:19.637 of stakeholder led uh selection of research topics. 01:09:19.670 --> 01:09:23.956 So a personal question, all of this, you articulated reasons why the 01:09:23.989 --> 01:09:29.196 program is valuable. It's accomplishments. Why have you remained involved 01:09:29.229 --> 01:09:36.036 in the program for so long? What's what have you got? All right. Um Again 01:09:36.069 --> 01:09:42.927 , my deep appreciation and uh an attachment to Grand Canyon is what drives 01:09:42.960 --> 01:09:47.637 my interest in the program. Um 01:09:47.670 --> 01:09:54.017 I learn every with every person I talked to in this program and uh and 01:09:54.050 --> 01:09:57.946 every passenger I take down the river. And and even from the simplest 01:09:57.979 --> 01:10:02.937 questions I learned what my uh I learned more about that, my relationship 01:10:02.970 --> 01:10:08.727 to Grand Canyon. So that's it's it's just a continually enlightening 01:10:08.760 --> 01:10:15.737 exercise to pursue this. Um I have not only uh let's see, our organization 01:10:15.770 --> 01:10:18.677 is pretty small. We often don't have funding. So I do a lot of my work pro 01:10:18.710 --> 01:10:26.586 bono. Uh huh. And uh and it but but but the effort at trying to do our 01:10:26.619 --> 01:10:32.206 best to manage Grand Canyon. This is what drives me. And so whatever it 01:10:32.239 --> 01:10:35.727 takes to do that I'll be in the chair 01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:40.036 maybe except unless there's a river trip that might conflict with the time 01:10:40.069 --> 01:10:44.847 that I should be in the chair. River trip takes priority. Not necessarily. 01:10:44.880 --> 01:10:51.010 But I try to try to keep them. Yeah, I try to manage my time carefully. 01:10:51.760 --> 01:10:53.760 What do you think have been the program's failings or limitations? And how 01:10:56.729 --> 01:11:04.729 would you like to see those resolved or? All right. 01:11:07.859 --> 01:11:12.826 We have the tools to be able to answer questions without having to subject 01:11:12.859 --> 01:11:19.727 the river to treatments and one of the failures of the program 01:11:19.760 --> 01:11:26.017 has to do with our um with with the unwillingness of of of some 01:11:26.050 --> 01:11:29.147 stakeholders to use the models. We have to answer questions at least 01:11:29.180 --> 01:11:34.326 conceptually answer those questions before we encounter those situations. 01:11:34.359 --> 01:11:40.836 one example is that is that the lake Powell is used to sometimes under 01:11:40.869 --> 01:11:45.956 under good flow years, used to equalize the level of Lake Mead. And for 01:11:45.989 --> 01:11:48.616 those years a lot of water has really started Lake Powell and sent 01:11:48.649 --> 01:11:54.977 downstream to Lake Mead. A very straightforward question is uh and we have 01:11:55.010 --> 01:12:00.557 very good models of how flow and sediment interact and given different the 01:12:00.590 --> 01:12:04.647 starting conditions for for settlement in the river sediments derived from 01:12:04.680 --> 01:12:09.857 tributaries as it builds up, then we have the ability to manage it. Um So 01:12:09.890 --> 01:12:14.637 we could use these models to answer the question, how can we best manage 01:12:14.670 --> 01:12:17.727 the flow? The equalization flows for the reservoir for these two 01:12:17.760 --> 01:12:22.807 reservoirs to minimize sediment exports. So we preserve the sediment 01:12:22.840 --> 01:12:27.456 supplies that we have in the system using using these models. What's the 01:12:27.489 --> 01:12:31.307 right way to do it? We don't have to, this is, you know, we don't have we 01:12:31.340 --> 01:12:38.227 don't threaten anybody's water allocation or or any any um issue with 01:12:38.260 --> 01:12:41.237 hydropower production necessarily. We're just running a model to see what 01:12:41.270 --> 01:12:45.326 the right way to do it is system is resistant to that the water and power 01:12:45.359 --> 01:12:48.376 interests are, they don't want to go there because then that might shift 01:12:48.409 --> 01:12:52.967 there ability to market hydropower for some reason. So that, to me is a 01:12:53.000 --> 01:12:56.487 limitation is that we've we've made some pretty good headway with 01:12:56.520 --> 01:13:00.597 understanding really great headway with the modeling and these are 01:13:00.630 --> 01:13:04.126 questions we could answer with the tools we've got, but because it 01:13:04.159 --> 01:13:08.927 threatens the whatever behaviors of these different organizations that 01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:13.156 market power, they don't want to they don't want to test those models in 01:13:13.189 --> 01:13:18.517 that fashion. Can you think of possible pathways for resolving that 01:13:18.550 --> 01:13:22.116 shortcoming in? 01:13:22.149 --> 01:13:27.887 Again, it would take strong uh leadership by the Department of Interior to 01:13:27.920 --> 01:13:33.427 help with that. Ah Because water and power is you know, they're pretty 01:13:33.460 --> 01:13:39.456 resistant to any kind of potential threat to their to their they're the 01:13:39.489 --> 01:13:43.916 way they manage their organizations and they've taken quite a hit with 01:13:43.949 --> 01:13:48.517 with the modification of the damn overtime modification of the flow regime 01:13:48.550 --> 01:13:53.756 from the dam over time. Ah dampened flow fluctuations with the result of 01:13:53.789 --> 01:13:59.887 the 1996 E. I. S. And those have been perpetuated now into the, into the 01:13:59.920 --> 01:14:03.857 present so that they can no longer run these huge daily tides through the 01:14:03.890 --> 01:14:08.807 through the system. 01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:13.357 More more conversation with them continued to push on it. Uh but it would 01:14:13.390 --> 01:14:20.107 take strong uh secretarial support to Two X two use the models that we 01:14:20.140 --> 01:14:24.307 have to test that test some of those notions. 01:14:24.340 --> 01:14:30.147 one thing I've been particularly um one of one idea that I've had has been 01:14:30.180 --> 01:14:34.057 particularly strongly rejected was using the models to look at flow 01:14:34.090 --> 01:14:38.687 fluctuation on every other day. Again, higher flows produce more 01:14:38.720 --> 01:14:44.357 hydroelectric power run one day with high uh you know, running alternate 01:14:44.390 --> 01:14:49.866 days of hydropower production or a different uh maybe multi days. And 01:14:49.899 --> 01:14:55.147 there's many issues there because if you run daily flow fluctuations from 01:14:55.180 --> 01:15:01.046 the damn those translated into a waveform, that is a very fast uprising 01:15:01.079 --> 01:15:06.256 wave scours up a lot of sediment. And if you could slow down that cycle, 01:15:06.289 --> 01:15:09.277 then you could probably slow down a lot of the erosion rates using the 01:15:09.310 --> 01:15:12.796 models. Again, this is not having to subject the system to this kind of 01:15:12.829 --> 01:15:16.786 analysis. Use the models we have which are perfectly capable of doing this 01:15:16.819 --> 01:15:21.416 to test out these alternative flow regimes that might be much more 01:15:21.449 --> 01:15:25.956 conservative of sediment. And and then look at the models are also set up 01:15:25.989 --> 01:15:30.277 to look at the economic costs of those. So, um those are those are great 01:15:30.310 --> 01:15:34.246 tools to be able to have and and and if we can ask those kind of questions 01:15:34.279 --> 01:15:37.866 , we might be able to get at what the right flow regime is to best support 01:15:37.899 --> 01:15:41.807 both the economics and the and the ecosystem. 01:15:41.840 --> 01:15:45.647 You've talked about different phases that the program has evolved through 01:15:45.680 --> 01:15:50.687 over time. And you talked about the importance of strongly committed 01:15:50.720 --> 01:15:55.887 Secretary of Interior to the effective functioning national program. Can 01:15:55.920 --> 01:16:02.397 you reflect back on which administrations and your experience have been 01:16:02.430 --> 01:16:06.086 most effective in advancing the adaptive management program in which 01:16:06.119 --> 01:16:11.677 administrations have not been as effective in advancing the goals and 01:16:11.710 --> 01:16:17.996 accomplishments of the program. Yes, quite easily. It's it's I don't 01:16:18.029 --> 01:16:20.847 understand really the relationships between the Secretary of the Interior 01:16:20.880 --> 01:16:24.527 and the and the President in any of these situations, but to say that 01:16:24.560 --> 01:16:28.826 under Bruce Bruce babbitt's time as Secretary of the Interior and under 01:16:28.859 --> 01:16:31.756 ken Salazar as time as Secretary of the Interior. Those are the big 01:16:31.789 --> 01:16:37.046 advances in terms of strong secretarial secretarial support, really great 01:16:37.079 --> 01:16:41.017 secretary designees and Castle, I hope is somebody that you will be able 01:16:41.050 --> 01:16:47.607 to interview. Fabulous at at the high level policy implications and 01:16:47.640 --> 01:16:54.147 keeping a keeping a a bunch of renegades, stakeholders on track and, and 01:16:54.180 --> 01:16:59.996 uh and helping move the product program forward, 01:17:00.029 --> 01:17:03.696 correct? 01:17:03.729 --> 01:17:09.616 I just thought of a rather controversial speculative question. There's a 01:17:09.649 --> 01:17:15.446 lot of talk these days about what to do with the reservoirs behind Lake 01:17:15.479 --> 01:17:19.517 Mead and Lake Powell because both are half empty or more than half empty. 01:17:19.550 --> 01:17:24.807 Climate change is not giving us much confidence that those reservoirs 01:17:24.840 --> 01:17:30.357 will be full again in our lifetimes. A former commissioner of the Bureau 01:17:30.390 --> 01:17:35.206 of Reclamation is actually advocated for the dismantling or at least not 01:17:35.239 --> 01:17:40.126 if not the dismantling of glen canyon dam, the emptying of the reservoir. 01:17:40.159 --> 01:17:46.857 What do you think of that possibility and how would that affect river 01:17:46.890 --> 01:17:51.536 flow regimes in the Grand Canyon and the whole legacy of the program. I 01:17:51.569 --> 01:17:59.467 deal with this question every day every day. Um Glen Canyon dam was built 01:17:59.500 --> 01:18:04.406 where it was built because it's live because it lies just upstream of the 01:18:04.439 --> 01:18:07.246 boundary between the upper Colorado River basin and the lower Colorado 01:18:07.279 --> 01:18:12.046 River basin. That boundary is um, at a place called lee Ferry just 01:18:12.079 --> 01:18:17.336 downstream from lee's Ferry. And it is probably the most politically 01:18:17.369 --> 01:18:23.496 important point in uh, in the southwest Because the river has been divided 01:18:23.529 --> 01:18:30.256 into these two basins. And then, and 1922 Colorado River compact requires 01:18:30.289 --> 01:18:35.267 that on average, 8.2, 3 million acre feet of water past past Lee ferry 01:18:35.300 --> 01:18:39.546 each year from the upper basin into the lower basin. That's on average, on 01:18:39.579 --> 01:18:42.187 a 10 year average, 01:18:42.220 --> 01:18:47.786 and it's over allocated only about 7.5 million acre feet can be delivered 01:18:47.819 --> 01:18:52.286 Reliably 10 Year period. 01:18:52.319 --> 01:18:57.097 That's the political context of where the dam is. Lake Powell 180 miles 01:18:57.130 --> 01:19:02.796 long will take 640 years to completely fill with sediment. We were 54 01:19:02.829 --> 01:19:05.817 years into the story right now. So it's, we've got a long time before they 01:19:05.850 --> 01:19:10.427 actually becomes compromised by sedimentation. Uh, Lake Mead because of 01:19:10.460 --> 01:19:14.487 Glen Canyon Dam is protected from fans. It's got a lifespan of 1000 years 01:19:14.520 --> 01:19:22.116 or more. Um, the yes, the reservoirs are, are, are low. Now, climate 01:19:22.149 --> 01:19:28.536 change is not looking very promising in terms of, in terms of being able 01:19:28.569 --> 01:19:34.616 to fill lake Mead, but um, the upper basin is actually not in anywhere as 01:19:34.649 --> 01:19:37.256 near as bad shape in terms of the climate change projections as the lower 01:19:37.289 --> 01:19:42.977 basin is therefore filling of Lake Powell is not, certainly not, not 01:19:43.010 --> 01:19:48.857 impossible, will probably happen again. Um, and we're, we're in, we're 01:19:48.890 --> 01:19:53.187 probably at the end of concluding of kind of a long term drought here. And 01:19:53.220 --> 01:19:58.147 so in the next 5 to 10 years, we may see a change in the way that uh, that 01:19:58.180 --> 01:20:04.147 that the, the changing snow pack and melt off and how the lake feels the 01:20:04.180 --> 01:20:09.446 reservoir fills. So uh, draining Lake Powell to support Lake mead is 01:20:09.479 --> 01:20:13.437 something that's been proposed by some people has entertained in the E. I 01:20:13.470 --> 01:20:20.977 . S. Actually film meet first means let lake Powell just simply go dry. 01:20:21.010 --> 01:20:26.656 There's an ecological problem here. Like Glen Canyon Dam is blocking the 01:20:26.689 --> 01:20:31.706 inflow of uh, non native fish and non native fish diseases that would 01:20:31.739 --> 01:20:34.876 almost certainly wipe out the Grand Canyon remaining native fish and Grand 01:20:34.909 --> 01:20:41.456 Canyon many non native fish in, in the upper basin host of fish diseases 01:20:41.489 --> 01:20:47.647 that are being now blocked by the, by the dam. So, um, simply letting the 01:20:47.680 --> 01:20:51.406 river flow through Glen canyon and into Grand Canyon. While that sounds 01:20:51.439 --> 01:20:54.847 like a great thing to do from as a conservationist. You know, it's good. 01:20:54.880 --> 01:20:58.357 Bring back the river. That's fabulous, good uh, good thought there, 01:20:58.390 --> 01:21:03.027 except for, we would probably lose the resources that we were trying so 01:21:03.060 --> 01:21:07.786 hard to preserve in Grand Canyon because of that process the biological 01:21:07.819 --> 01:21:12.717 resources. Um, the upper basin, the river is, is paved in catfish as far 01:21:12.750 --> 01:21:15.397 as I can tell. You can't throw a line out anywhere there and not catch a 01:21:15.430 --> 01:21:20.267 catfish within one minute. Um, and not. And the, and the native fish in 01:21:20.300 --> 01:21:25.416 the upper basin are dreadfully threatened. So we've got some real catfish 01:21:25.449 --> 01:21:30.616 is non native carpet, non native 20 other non native species uh, 01:21:30.649 --> 01:21:35.777 in that system and many of them are predators, warm water predators and 01:21:35.810 --> 01:21:39.847 much better approach from my standpoint, even though I'm supposed to be a 01:21:39.880 --> 01:21:44.527 conservation advocate is to really study carefully the ecology of cataract 01:21:44.560 --> 01:21:49.876 cannon. Because cataract cannon, this is upstream from Lake Powell is a 01:21:49.909 --> 01:21:55.956 place where we get all the normal functioning of of a wild river, huge 01:21:55.989 --> 01:22:00.527 variation and flow over the course of the year. Lots and lots of sediment. 01:22:00.560 --> 01:22:04.656 The temperatures warm up very warm in the summer and ice covered in the 01:22:04.689 --> 01:22:09.296 winter. All the conditions that took place in Grand Canyon. And if those 01:22:09.329 --> 01:22:13.826 are the conditions that we want to uh, recovering Grand Canyon, restoring 01:22:13.859 --> 01:22:18.496 Grand Canyon, what are the consequences of those conditions on the native 01:22:18.529 --> 01:22:23.677 fauna and fish, fish and, and, and terrestrial fauna? The story is not 01:22:23.710 --> 01:22:28.956 actually very good. Uh, the natural river up there has very few native 01:22:28.989 --> 01:22:33.866 fish, very little shoreline kind of 01:22:33.899 --> 01:22:40.196 um viability and, and uh, and lots of lots of challenges up there that if 01:22:40.229 --> 01:22:44.467 we were to restore those conditions in Grand Canyon would be a disaster 01:22:44.500 --> 01:22:48.137 for our, for our natural resources and especially the Biota and Grand 01:22:48.170 --> 01:22:53.626 Cannon, these are big challenges because again, the biases well, we should 01:22:53.659 --> 01:22:56.416 restore Grand Canyon. If we're, if we're good environmentalists, we should 01:22:56.449 --> 01:23:01.196 restore the natural physical conditions and therefore everything will be, 01:23:01.229 --> 01:23:05.256 will be in good in good shape. But that's not the case. So therefore we're 01:23:05.289 --> 01:23:09.656 stuck with the situation of keeping the damn as as an important barrier to 01:23:09.689 --> 01:23:13.866 non native species, um, influx, 01:23:13.899 --> 01:23:17.656 learning enough about the system about Grand Canyon portion of the river 01:23:17.689 --> 01:23:22.097 to be able to preserve those features that we want to have their the 01:23:22.130 --> 01:23:26.256 species that we want to have their prevent non natives from taking over 01:23:26.289 --> 01:23:31.967 and and uh and decimating the the river ecosystem 01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:35.706 and having that be still something socially acceptable in terms of 01:23:35.739 --> 01:23:40.817 hydropower production and, and uh, and the uh subsidy delivery that we we 01:23:40.850 --> 01:23:46.137 expect from Glen canyon dam big. It's a, it's a huge challenge. Um, and 01:23:46.170 --> 01:23:49.586 without going through that whole discussion with people draining, you know 01:23:49.619 --> 01:23:53.126 , eliminating the damn sounds like a great idea to the public, but there 01:23:53.159 --> 01:23:57.887 are many issues that actually have to be considered before that takes 01:23:57.920 --> 01:24:04.286 place. And we have the time. So, so in terms of environmental policy, this 01:24:04.319 --> 01:24:08.147 is uh, this is, it's, it's a bit of a challenge to get these, these points 01:24:08.180 --> 01:24:12.456 across 01:24:12.489 --> 01:24:19.067 some of what you've been saying. Mhm highlights a couple of concepts that 01:24:19.100 --> 01:24:23.637 are critical to conservation conservation history, preservation and 01:24:23.670 --> 01:24:28.387 restoration. And it sounds like part of the goal of the adaptive 01:24:28.420 --> 01:24:32.296 management program is to preserve some of the natural functioning of the 01:24:32.329 --> 01:24:37.876 river, which is challenged perhaps inhibited to a certain extent by 01:24:37.909 --> 01:24:43.347 operations and to restore some of the lost characteristics ecological 01:24:43.380 --> 01:24:51.380 characteristics of the river. But in your discussion with us, um you're 01:24:51.829 --> 01:24:57.996 suggesting that in some instances we can't go back and in some instances 01:24:58.029 --> 01:25:03.437 in order to preserve some of the things that we want, we can't let nature 01:25:03.470 --> 01:25:08.616 take its course because there are serious challenges to it. We've got to 01:25:08.649 --> 01:25:14.666 invest time and money and labor to preserve certain ecosystems. Can you 01:25:14.699 --> 01:25:21.376 reflect a little bit about what, how we should understand these twin goals 01:25:21.409 --> 01:25:25.107 of preservation and restoration, Understand those in a way that makes 01:25:25.140 --> 01:25:32.267 sense in a real river rather than just being ideals that are applied in a 01:25:32.300 --> 01:25:38.046 real place. Yeah. So a paper that Jack Schmitt and I and several other co 01:25:38.079 --> 01:25:46.079 authors wrote in Bioscience in 1998 lays out the terrain of what might be 01:25:46.260 --> 01:25:54.260 achievable in terms of management and the role of science in that. Um uh 01:25:54.789 --> 01:26:00.006 It's a, you know, these are complicated questions. They require very clear 01:26:00.039 --> 01:26:06.527 valuation of resources. So if we want to keep humpback chub as a species 01:26:06.560 --> 01:26:11.347 on earth, we need to manage the Grand canyon away that supports it. What's 01:26:11.380 --> 01:26:14.006 the right way to do that? That's that's been, you know, 30 years of 01:26:14.039 --> 01:26:18.626 research and we're still learning, it's been half a billion dollars spent 01:26:18.659 --> 01:26:26.326 on About 10,000 fish so far, a huge amount of money has been spent trying 01:26:26.359 --> 01:26:30.076 to understand how to keep humpback chub in the picture because we have 01:26:30.109 --> 01:26:33.946 enough humpback chub to work with the 01:26:33.979 --> 01:26:39.656 that money, you know, certainly went somewhere for other species we've 01:26:39.689 --> 01:26:47.689 lost in that system. Lost southwestern willow flycatcher lost. Um ah Uh 01:26:47.989 --> 01:26:53.277 quite a few species that aren't listed um 85 taxes by my count. With one 01:26:53.310 --> 01:26:57.536 of the committees, I served on groups of species that have been lost 01:26:57.569 --> 01:27:02.946 because of the damn because of damn presence and operations. Um um um 01:27:02.979 --> 01:27:07.586 trying to understand what our values are for species, for resources, for 01:27:07.619 --> 01:27:11.777 experiences for the public as well as the valuation of hydropower 01:27:11.810 --> 01:27:16.696 production and water delivery downstream, balancing those out into into a 01:27:16.729 --> 01:27:19.996 , you know, a coherent framework has been that is the challenge of the 01:27:20.029 --> 01:27:27.036 program and and that. Mhm. That's I think now with respect to native 01:27:27.069 --> 01:27:30.156 american concerns about the, about the landscape as well, because there's 01:27:30.189 --> 01:27:37.647 our spiritual concerns as as well as resource concerns. Um 01:27:37.680 --> 01:27:43.597 putting it all together and sorting it all out. Uh fast change is what 01:27:43.630 --> 01:27:47.156 humans are really good at making policy decision and will take off the 01:27:47.189 --> 01:27:53.057 damn okay or build a dam. Uh and those have enormous impacts on the fabric 01:27:53.090 --> 01:27:59.147 of of uh of nature as well as the social uh 01:27:59.180 --> 01:28:02.536 the context of the of these changes. Humans are good at changing things 01:28:02.569 --> 01:28:06.536 too quickly. Not good at at stepping back and saying, well let's let's 01:28:06.569 --> 01:28:10.496 study this for a couple of decades actually to really get at the answers 01:28:10.529 --> 01:28:17.046 so we know what the consequences of our decisions are. Um One example 01:28:17.079 --> 01:28:20.517 within this context was the discussion about the temperature control 01:28:20.550 --> 01:28:25.126 device TCD. Okay, we're gonna build it and we actually came pretty close 01:28:25.159 --> 01:28:28.137 to just building it. 01:28:28.170 --> 01:28:33.437 You can't necessarily go back. That's the issue and just as we can't 01:28:33.470 --> 01:28:36.437 recover our own youth, we can't go back to how we were when we were 01:28:36.470 --> 01:28:42.446 teenagers or whatever. You can't simply um take away something thats been 01:28:42.479 --> 01:28:46.046 constructed in an ecosystem and have the ecosystem return to that to its 01:28:46.079 --> 01:28:50.347 to its natural condition. There are always consequences. You warm up the 01:28:50.380 --> 01:28:55.937 water for a few years and crayfish get, get may colonize, you can't get 01:28:55.970 --> 01:28:58.987 rid of crayfish, there's just no way to eliminate them, they eat 01:28:59.020 --> 01:29:03.156 everything and you can't you can't control them. So therefore, you know, 01:29:03.189 --> 01:29:06.546 if you warmed up the water with a tv with a temperature control device and 01:29:06.579 --> 01:29:10.687 allowed crayfish to get started, you have an irreparable change to the 01:29:10.720 --> 01:29:14.376 system that would completely take the trajectory of development of the 01:29:14.409 --> 01:29:17.536 ecosystem in a different direction. 01:29:17.569 --> 01:29:23.887 Ah So that's an important thing to understand. We can't go back, we have 01:29:23.920 --> 01:29:27.406 to make decisions based on what we have, what we, what we know we can, 01:29:27.439 --> 01:29:31.826 what we can learn about what we can model is particularly useful, then we 01:29:31.859 --> 01:29:39.237 don't have to manipulate the system to move further. Um But um you know, 01:29:39.270 --> 01:29:44.437 it's just the hard work of accepting that we've got an altered ecosystem 01:29:44.470 --> 01:29:49.467 and uh and that fast changes quick policy decisions. We're probably not 01:29:49.500 --> 01:29:55.437 going to solve our problems. So if if if we can't always preserve or 01:29:55.470 --> 01:29:59.126 restore a particular species and endangered species and we can't always 01:29:59.159 --> 01:30:05.057 preserve or restore a particular assemblage of plants along the river. 01:30:05.090 --> 01:30:11.546 Seine the beach. What is it that the adaptive management program is 01:30:11.579 --> 01:30:16.027 restoring and preserving 01:30:16.060 --> 01:30:23.506 it is? Yes. Uh huh. Yeah. So there's very little guidance in this. Um and 01:30:23.539 --> 01:30:31.539 as to what the what as to what we can achieve, what we should achieve and 01:30:32.680 --> 01:30:36.286 it's right now that's driven by policies of different agencies. Park 01:30:36.319 --> 01:30:44.126 service, once its purpose is to preserve the natural condition, has no 01:30:44.159 --> 01:30:51.206 capacity to uh to really manage for an altered condition because it's 01:30:51.239 --> 01:30:55.406 altered. It should the parts of us should always be driving itself towards 01:30:55.439 --> 01:31:01.187 the natural condition and they use that um Sometimes as an excuse for not 01:31:01.220 --> 01:31:05.126 for not acting because letting nature take its course is the way that the 01:31:05.159 --> 01:31:10.687 Park Service thinks it's getting its job done. One example, there is the 01:31:10.720 --> 01:31:14.677 riparian vegetation has grown up dramatically as a surprise in the system. 01:31:14.710 --> 01:31:18.876 Profuse development of riparian vegetation along the river, 300 miles of 01:31:18.909 --> 01:31:21.996 riparian vegetation, the biggest stand of riparian vegetation left in the 01:31:22.029 --> 01:31:28.626 southwest and 90 where 90% of this habitat has been eliminated, incredibly 01:31:28.659 --> 01:31:34.406 productive for birds, for wildlife, for insect life. It's not natural. 01:31:34.439 --> 01:31:37.277 Therefore, there's always been a reluctance on the part of the National 01:31:37.310 --> 01:31:41.586 Park Service to want to manage that uh system would be better to have it 01:31:41.619 --> 01:31:48.277 not be there. But the park is now an island of habitat for birds and 01:31:48.310 --> 01:31:52.267 wildlife that require that kind of habitat and have lost it elsewhere. So 01:31:52.300 --> 01:31:57.597 they, so the park service by if they've lost that habitat would actually 01:31:57.630 --> 01:32:02.597 be doing grave and perhaps irreparable harm to to the wildlife and bird 01:32:02.630 --> 01:32:06.317 species of the Southwest. 01:32:06.350 --> 01:32:11.196 Where do you, how do you know, are we willing to actually accept our role 01:32:11.229 --> 01:32:17.746 in this human dominated ecosystem as managers? And uh some many of the 01:32:17.779 --> 01:32:21.777 existing policies are kind of in conflict with us being able to step up to 01:32:21.810 --> 01:32:25.217 the plate on that. 01:32:25.250 --> 01:32:30.217 What do you think should be the goal for the adaptive management program, 01:32:30.250 --> 01:32:37.237 for example, should we, instead of trying to recover or preserve specific 01:32:37.270 --> 01:32:45.270 ecosystems or species, should we try to recover or preserved resiliency or 01:32:46.250 --> 01:32:52.647 biological productivity? Is there are other kinds of concepts like that 01:32:52.680 --> 01:32:57.347 that could guide us in this difficult situation where we don't know what's 01:32:57.380 --> 01:33:02.996 natural and whether we can go back or not. Previous story. Yeah. In this 01:33:03.029 --> 01:33:07.977 paper by Jack Schmitt and at all, uh in 1998 we lay out the train that the 01:33:08.010 --> 01:33:13.906 altered river system is um It's not natural, it's got components that are 01:33:13.939 --> 01:33:18.717 desired and it's got artifacts of the past that we that are still valued 01:33:18.750 --> 01:33:24.006 and the balance of of managing those together along with the with the 01:33:24.039 --> 01:33:26.946 goods and services being produced by that by hydrologic hydropower 01:33:26.979 --> 01:33:31.006 production and water delivery. Um That is the balance that we're working 01:33:31.039 --> 01:33:35.597 with. It's a social process to value those to decide which which we want 01:33:35.630 --> 01:33:42.086 to uh uh maintain somehow in this adaptive management process that's 01:33:42.119 --> 01:33:46.217 proceeding. Although the valuation process for things other than humpback 01:33:46.250 --> 01:33:52.647 chub and and sediment resources is not very clear. Um But the process is 01:33:52.680 --> 01:33:59.616 going in that direction without a lot of um uh huh large coarse scale kind 01:33:59.649 --> 01:34:04.126 of overview of what the what those directions are. We're getting. We're 01:34:04.159 --> 01:34:06.817 getting there whether we want to or not and we don't really understand 01:34:06.850 --> 01:34:11.597 where we're getting to. Yeah, but at least we've got some framework there 01:34:11.630 --> 01:34:15.076 to be able to understand as changes are happening. What those some of 01:34:15.109 --> 01:34:21.277 those changes are. Are you hopeful? Always, always um Because I studied 01:34:21.310 --> 01:34:26.517 get to study natural history and evolution. Um uh that that gives me long 01:34:26.550 --> 01:34:31.307 term hope and yes, things will be will be quite different in the future. 01:34:31.340 --> 01:34:37.946 And uh loss of some of these type of the species is something I try to try 01:34:37.979 --> 01:34:45.517 to work against. So for me any human caused extinction is a crime And 01:34:45.550 --> 01:34:52.246 therefore that's that's that's one one way I proceed in life is to uh try 01:34:52.279 --> 01:34:56.017 to make sure that nothing goes extinct. That um that that I have some kind 01:34:56.050 --> 01:35:03.706 of power to to prevent. 01:35:03.739 --> 01:35:07.126 That was a nice place to end. I am going to ask you a couple of practical 01:35:07.159 --> 01:35:11.977 nuts and bolts kind of questions to, you know, finish this up. One is um 01:35:12.010 --> 01:35:16.326 if you could give us some keywords that you think are significant to the 01:35:16.359 --> 01:35:20.256 program and its evolution, we're gonna make a keyword list and make sure 01:35:20.289 --> 01:35:26.557 that everything in the archive is tagged with these important. Okay, well 01:35:26.590 --> 01:35:34.307 certainly it's going to be the humpback chub sandbars. Um 01:35:34.340 --> 01:35:39.307 flow 01:35:39.340 --> 01:35:46.006 traditional ecological knowledge to IKEa um um 01:35:46.039 --> 01:35:50.706 adaptive management, 01:35:50.739 --> 01:35:58.739 flow regulation. 01:35:59.800 --> 01:36:05.626 The way we have described the ecosystem as the Colorado River ecosystem. 01:36:05.659 --> 01:36:12.427 CRE that's a common acronym for for that. But it's the function that 01:36:12.460 --> 01:36:18.057 captures the concept in perfectly captures the concept of that. A river is 01:36:18.090 --> 01:36:21.727 more than water. It's also where the water has been the terraces, the 01:36:21.760 --> 01:36:29.760 landforms as well as the species make up the river. Um 01:36:29.930 --> 01:36:37.696 uh 01:36:37.729 --> 01:36:42.857 I guess the, you know, the various policies that are in play that matter. 01:36:42.890 --> 01:36:46.126 The organic act of National Park Service, the endangered Species act that 01:36:46.159 --> 01:36:54.159 granted him protection Act. Um Yeah, the temp temporada 01:36:54.529 --> 01:36:58.987 how many is that? That's a dozen. Okay, good. So that's a starting point 01:36:59.020 --> 01:37:02.996 but you'll have many more 01:37:03.029 --> 01:37:08.166 to tag acronyms you mentioned in the tag the documents and reports, but 01:37:08.199 --> 01:37:13.496 also the tag tribes and stakeholders and federal agencies, 01:37:13.529 --> 01:37:19.647 jennifer started documenting. Dropbox folder for tagging, you know, here's 01:37:19.680 --> 01:37:24.996 my notes actually from the interview and then you can go back and listen 01:37:25.029 --> 01:37:29.296 to that last section of the interview and the if you have any questions 01:37:29.329 --> 01:37:36.427 they are, write to me as well as Larry, he's in the field. 01:37:36.460 --> 01:37:42.647 I'm electronically available electronically available most uh until April 01:37:42.680 --> 01:37:48.397 three, April 2. Is there anything else that you'd like us to ask you what 01:37:48.430 --> 01:37:51.196 take today? 01:37:51.229 --> 01:37:56.246 You've I think hidden most of the topics. Hope is important in this 01:37:56.279 --> 01:37:58.296 program 01:37:58.329 --> 01:38:04.536 I think. And it's very interesting to know how hopeful some of your next 01:38:04.569 --> 01:38:09.887 interviewees are on this. Um 01:38:09.920 --> 01:38:14.496 Yeah, that was a spontaneous question that came up from the conversation 01:38:14.529 --> 01:38:20.387 and I thought um I like that and I think I should ask every Yeah, yeah, 01:38:20.420 --> 01:38:22.586 revealed 01:38:22.619 --> 01:38:27.017 there is another question do you recommend? Oh right. Yeah, yeah. We we've 01:38:27.050 --> 01:38:32.527 talked about that Dave Wagner for the for the pre uh 01:38:32.560 --> 01:38:38.446 am p part of the part of the program. Dave Wagner is critical. He lives in 01:38:38.479 --> 01:38:41.866 Tucson I think. Did I give I sent you his information? I don't know if I 01:38:41.899 --> 01:38:45.116 have this contact information yet, but you did say that he lives in Tucson. 01:38:45.149 --> 01:38:50.076 Yeah. So I'll have to double check out of some notes for the tribal 01:38:50.109 --> 01:38:58.109 representation in this program. Uh is it uh usually by white guys who 01:38:58.180 --> 01:39:02.677 represent the tribe? Because the tribe? Yes. Uh huh. But very very long 01:39:02.710 --> 01:39:08.696 term people. So uh they also may be not be on there. Maybe haven't been a 01:39:08.729 --> 01:39:14.586 list but mike Yates, 01:39:14.619 --> 01:39:21.586 mike Yates, Y A. T. T. S. He's happy. He's with the Hopi kurt Jankowski 01:39:21.619 --> 01:39:25.086 with the zuni tribe 01:39:25.119 --> 01:39:33.027 house party last night. Don goes D. O N. G O W. S. K. I. And uh don. No 01:39:33.060 --> 01:39:39.237 sorry kurt kurt kurt. And then um terry carrie Christianson with 01:39:39.270 --> 01:39:46.817 unqualified tribe VE ry Christensen with Annie 01:39:46.850 --> 01:39:51.487 is um zuni zuni. Yeah. 01:39:51.520 --> 01:39:59.520 So their perspective would be I think quite interesting here as well. 01:40:00.819 --> 01:40:05.147 Yeah, I'll add them to the list and we'll start getting looking for. Yeah. 01:40:05.180 --> 01:40:09.116 The other tribes have people that show up occasionally are not quite as 01:40:09.149 --> 01:40:13.310 well informed in long term as these three guys are.