WEBVTT 00:00:00.740 --> 00:00:04.936 mary, please start by telling us your name the positions that you held in 00:00:04.969 --> 00:00:10.047 the adaptive management program in the years in which you participated. My 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:15.576 name is mary Orton. I started out being connected with the program by 00:00:15.609 --> 00:00:20.927 supervising the am wig and twig member from when I was the southwest 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:25.627 regional director of American rivers. So we were one of two environmental 00:00:25.660 --> 00:00:29.697 organizations that was representing the entirety of the environmental 00:00:29.730 --> 00:00:34.177 community on the adaptive management program, both on the adaptive 00:00:34.210 --> 00:00:38.457 management workgroup and the technical work group, the am wig and the twig. 00:00:38.490 --> 00:00:43.737 Yeah. So uh, we, we had one person who served as the and Twig and the 00:00:43.770 --> 00:00:47.366 Twig member. So the policy person and the technical person. And I was her 00:00:47.399 --> 00:00:50.476 supervisor when I became southwest regional director. So that, that was in 00:00:50.509 --> 00:00:53.107 1997. 00:00:53.140 --> 00:01:01.140 And so I began then 20 years ago. How about that? And uh mm hmm. Then 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:08.426 eventually that woman pam hide left our employ and I became the am wig 00:01:08.459 --> 00:01:14.617 member. And that was probably in Late 1998, early 1999 that I actually 00:01:14.650 --> 00:01:18.007 became the family member. And then another one of our employees became the 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:25.296 technical work group, the Twig member. So um by the end of 1999 I had left 00:01:25.329 --> 00:01:33.329 American rivers and had been so I had 00:01:34.540 --> 00:01:41.096 no technical background when I arrived at american rivers and the adaptive 00:01:41.129 --> 00:01:46.406 management program is a highly technical program and I knew Nothing when I 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:49.986 arrived at American rivers, I had been running a homeless shelter for 12 00:01:50.019 --> 00:01:52.917 years. So you know I knew how to raise money, I knew how to run an 00:01:52.950 --> 00:01:58.456 organization, but I did not know much about how rivers worked. And I love 00:01:58.489 --> 00:02:02.947 the Grand Canyon. I hiked and floated and done all kinds of things, but 00:02:02.980 --> 00:02:06.307 you know, really didn't know the science side. So there's a huge learning 00:02:06.340 --> 00:02:13.807 curve for me. And when I became the am Wig member, I actually be my first 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:18.906 am wig meeting was a river trips through the Grand Canyon 00:02:18.939 --> 00:02:24.277 because so if you think back in the early history, 00:02:24.310 --> 00:02:30.337 the group had been formed really just a few years before and had done a 00:02:30.370 --> 00:02:36.726 big um artificial flood through the Grand Canyon. I think that back then 00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:42.717 they called it a beach habitat, building flow and or B H B F. So they had 00:02:42.750 --> 00:02:48.647 done that. And remember that on this group, you have all the folks who 00:02:48.680 --> 00:02:53.297 have been managing the river and managing the dam traditionally for 00:02:53.330 --> 00:03:00.827 decades since the 60s. And then you have the folks who are newly to the 00:03:00.860 --> 00:03:07.106 idea of running being part of the policy of running this, this, this dam 00:03:07.139 --> 00:03:10.256 and managing this ecosystem. So you have the tribes and the environmental 00:03:10.289 --> 00:03:16.487 organizations and the recreational representatives and, and so on. So you 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:20.207 have the states and the hydropower folks who have been around forever 00:03:20.240 --> 00:03:24.777 doing it the way they thought best. Right. And then you have these new 00:03:24.810 --> 00:03:30.006 people coming in thinking they had some better ideas and under this was 00:03:30.039 --> 00:03:32.686 under the clinton administration Bruce babbitt was Secretary of the 00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:39.427 Interior. And mm under the Grand Canyon Protection Act, which was a john 00:03:39.460 --> 00:03:47.460 McCain bill that became one, uh, the Bureau of Reclamation is to consult 00:03:47.849 --> 00:03:51.967 with all these different communities now in the running of the dam. And so 00:03:52.000 --> 00:03:57.786 babbitt put together this federal advisory committee. He was interested in 00:03:57.819 --> 00:04:02.006 what can all of these different people agree to? You know, is there 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:06.517 anything that what you call, you know, water buffaloes? You know, the 00:04:06.550 --> 00:04:10.017 folks who've been around forever really knew their stuff and knew how to 00:04:10.050 --> 00:04:14.066 how to run the run the system in the way that was going to benefit their 00:04:14.099 --> 00:04:18.036 constituents and then all these new constituents coming in, can they agree 00:04:18.069 --> 00:04:25.007 to something? So as a consensus based even back then. And 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:31.837 so by the time I came around, they had had the one big flood. And at that 00:04:31.870 --> 00:04:37.486 point it seemed like the folks who have been around a long time that we're 00:04:37.519 --> 00:04:41.957 saying, okay, that's enough. We've had this experiment, right? And that's 00:04:41.990 --> 00:04:47.327 good. And but other folks were saying, wait a minute, no, we're not done. 00:04:47.360 --> 00:04:51.577 We want to do more. And so by the time I got there, there was quite a bit 00:04:51.610 --> 00:04:55.837 of conflict in the group and the Bureau of Reclamation put everyone on the 00:04:55.870 --> 00:05:00.577 river. This is really quite smart. I thought, um, first of all putting 00:05:00.610 --> 00:05:03.176 people on the river, so you can actually see what you're talking about. 00:05:03.209 --> 00:05:07.536 And secondly, the goal of this river trip, which is about a week long as I 00:05:07.569 --> 00:05:13.806 recall, the goal was to come up with a shared vision, a shared vision. 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:17.647 What are we looking for here? What are we, what can we all agree that we 00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:24.246 want as a result of this program? No facilitator. The group had never had 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:26.507 a facilitator. 00:05:26.540 --> 00:05:34.197 This was my first meeting. I really couldn't contribute much because 00:05:34.230 --> 00:05:37.457 although I had been the supervisor of the anglican twig member for a while 00:05:37.490 --> 00:05:43.197 , I didn't know the details so well, so, and the other complication was, I 00:05:43.230 --> 00:05:48.077 couldn't make the first part of the trip because I was actually on a 00:05:48.110 --> 00:05:54.937 pilgrimage to the holy land. So, so I come in, hike down, meet the group 00:05:54.970 --> 00:06:01.507 at phantom uh, and or pipe creek wherever it was and 00:06:01.540 --> 00:06:06.267 and get introduced to people. I mean I didn't know anyone, maybe I knew 00:06:06.300 --> 00:06:10.666 one person from, you know, just previous life, not from this program. I 00:06:10.699 --> 00:06:13.397 mean I'm even shaking hands with the other environmental person because I 00:06:13.430 --> 00:06:20.687 just didn't know anyone. And uh, so they had been on the river by that 00:06:20.720 --> 00:06:25.366 time for maybe three days and they had spent the first couple of days 00:06:25.399 --> 00:06:31.056 getting acclimated, learning about the program, you know, the scientists 00:06:31.089 --> 00:06:37.306 were pointing things out and then 00:06:37.339 --> 00:06:41.806 uh, that that day. 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:46.947 So there were three big boats, three big motorized boats. One of the boats 00:06:46.980 --> 00:06:50.736 was designated the vision boat and the people on that boat that day we're 00:06:50.769 --> 00:06:56.507 going to start writing the vision together. And so I hiked down, I get, 00:06:56.540 --> 00:06:59.717 you know, midday, I'm not on the vision boat of course because they've, 00:06:59.750 --> 00:07:02.007 you know, they've been working all day and I get on the other one, we 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:05.036 trucked down the river a little bit longer and then set up camp. And then 00:07:05.069 --> 00:07:10.337 that night the vision boats going to present us with what they've come up 00:07:10.370 --> 00:07:18.370 with. So in addition to representatives from most, if not all of the 00:07:18.470 --> 00:07:22.577 organizations, the adaptive management program, organizations and the and 00:07:22.610 --> 00:07:27.007 the scientists and so on. There's also a, 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:32.077 I think he was an assistant secretary of the Interior at the time, I've 00:07:32.110 --> 00:07:35.007 forgotten his name, 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:39.806 but he was the big, the big Kahuna, you know, this is someone who's 00:07:39.839 --> 00:07:43.877 appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate. And so this is, 00:07:43.910 --> 00:07:50.226 this is, he's a big deal. Everyone is deferring to him. And uh, so we sit 00:07:50.259 --> 00:07:56.166 around after dinner, got the tiki lamps going. They've got big pieces of 00:07:56.199 --> 00:08:01.647 plywood stuck in the sand with flip chart paper taped to them and they've 00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:05.406 got their, their language that they're proposing 00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:09.866 and they, they, you know, share their language and then they asked for 00:08:09.899 --> 00:08:16.426 feedback and everyone's kind of quiet and uh, you know, again, I don't 00:08:16.459 --> 00:08:19.897 know anyone, nobody knows me. I raised my hand and I said, you know, 00:08:19.930 --> 00:08:25.007 that's really great language. But that's not a vision. That's a mission. 00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:28.837 That's a mission statement. So remember I had been running a nonprofit 00:08:28.870 --> 00:08:33.726 for over a decade. You know, Vision, mission goals, objectives. This was 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.996 all very familiar to me, not so familiar to most of the other people. So 00:08:38.029 --> 00:08:41.187 everybody's looking at me very quizzically. And so I explained here, you 00:08:41.220 --> 00:08:44.407 know, a vision is what you want to see. Vision, what do you want to see in 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:48.447 the future? What's the result of your work? What what do you want to have 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:53.606 at the end of the day, mission is what you do, it's all about what you do. 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.996 And then from that flows goals and objectives. And for me this is like 00:08:57.029 --> 00:09:00.667 elementary school that everybody's going, oh, you know, so it just wasn't 00:09:00.700 --> 00:09:05.346 part of their experience. But what really made the difference at that 00:09:05.379 --> 00:09:11.256 point was the Assistant Secretary turned to me and said she's right. So 00:09:11.289 --> 00:09:15.496 all of a sudden here's this person who nobody knows, nobody has any reason 00:09:15.529 --> 00:09:18.356 to trust. But the Assistant secretary says she's right. I had instant 00:09:18.389 --> 00:09:22.557 credibility. I told him later that if if he hadn't had been there, he 00:09:22.590 --> 00:09:25.837 hadn't said that my whole life might have turned out differently. But um 00:09:25.870 --> 00:09:31.067 so so they, we talked about that and discussed it because it really was 00:09:31.100 --> 00:09:34.957 great mission, it was great mission language, but it wasn't really great 00:09:34.990 --> 00:09:38.846 vision language. So by the end of that evening they asked me to facilitate 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:44.787 the vision boat the next day and I knew a little bit about facilitation. I 00:09:44.820 --> 00:09:49.026 had one technique that my mentor had taught me and I had used it quite a 00:09:49.059 --> 00:09:53.246 bit uh I was chair of the program committee of the board of the homeless 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:57.126 shelter before I became the executive director. So I had led them through 00:09:57.159 --> 00:10:00.726 the vision and mission and goals and objectives development process. So I 00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:04.496 knew a little bit about how to do that. So I was and I was happy to have 00:10:04.529 --> 00:10:08.417 that role because I couldn't really contribute too much on the substantive 00:10:08.450 --> 00:10:14.506 side. So it worked out really well. By the end of the trip 00:10:14.539 --> 00:10:19.636 there was a consensus combined vision and mission statement on the part of 00:10:19.669 --> 00:10:26.157 everyone who was on the river. And however, because this is a federal 00:10:26.190 --> 00:10:32.226 advisory committee, the group couldn't take action away from the public. 00:10:32.259 --> 00:10:37.807 So all of this had to come back. And so then they asked me to run that 00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:42.776 part of the meeting and thanks to Larry stevens who took excellent notes 00:10:42.809 --> 00:10:48.967 on every every aspect of that first trip. And he shared which he then 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:53.307 shared with me. I developed a presentation for that meeting that showed 00:10:53.340 --> 00:10:59.276 how every single person on that river trip actually contributed to the 00:10:59.309 --> 00:11:05.307 consensus language. And they had set aside four hours for the discussion 00:11:05.340 --> 00:11:11.736 And they approved it without changing AO in 45 minutes. So that was 00:11:11.769 --> 00:11:17.837 amazing. I mean that was probably the, you know, well of course I hadn't 00:11:17.870 --> 00:11:22.356 been around so much before, but that was, and for for that group at that 00:11:22.389 --> 00:11:27.407 time, which was in conflict, it was, it was a pretty amazing feat to have 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:33.646 that level of congruity and consensus has the vision and mission statement 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:39.407 changed since then? It has not changed. 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:42.616 I'm not saying it shouldn't have changed, just saying it hasn't changed. 00:11:42.649 --> 00:11:46.726 This is not a group that really likes process. So, you know, once they're 00:11:46.759 --> 00:11:50.116 done with it, they're done with it. And you know, so that's been one of my 00:11:50.149 --> 00:11:54.106 challenges over the years. So anyway, to make what's turned into somewhat 00:11:54.139 --> 00:11:57.907 a long story, a little bit shorter. Um 00:11:57.940 --> 00:12:00.236 the 00:12:00.269 --> 00:12:06.736 they asked me after that, which which was viewed as quite a success. They 00:12:06.769 --> 00:12:11.057 asked me to chair the Strategic Planning Committee as a member of the am 00:12:11.090 --> 00:12:15.317 wig. And so I asked that the other environmental person be on the 00:12:15.350 --> 00:12:18.736 committee so that I could really, because I didn't really know again, it 00:12:18.769 --> 00:12:22.317 wasn't that familiar with all the details. So it allowed me to be more of 00:12:22.350 --> 00:12:29.026 a facilitator over the course of that year. Then I would facilitate parts 00:12:29.059 --> 00:12:34.356 of the meeting that would come up with the the am Wig meetings that where 00:12:34.389 --> 00:12:39.106 the strategic plan was addressed anyway, so they're beginning to see me as 00:12:39.139 --> 00:12:45.667 a facilitator, right? This group never had had one. And then when I left 00:12:45.700 --> 00:12:49.986 american rivers at the end of the year, the Secretary's designee at the 00:12:50.019 --> 00:12:54.506 time offered me a contract to continue as a facilitator. What year was 00:12:54.539 --> 00:13:01.506 that? That was the end of 1999. So my contract, I think started on 00:13:01.539 --> 00:13:06.016 November 15 or something. So I went out and got some facilitation training 00:13:06.049 --> 00:13:10.136 since I you know, I knew a little bit, but not a whole lot. And then about 00:13:10.169 --> 00:13:14.106 six months later I realized that the group really was in conflict and what 00:13:14.139 --> 00:13:18.376 I was doing was probably closer to mediation and facilitation. So I went 00:13:18.409 --> 00:13:22.457 and got some mediation training and eventually ended up with a master's 00:13:22.490 --> 00:13:26.707 degree in in conflict resolution with an emphasis on environmental 00:13:26.740 --> 00:13:31.386 Conflict resolution. And ever since the end of 1999, this is what I've 00:13:31.419 --> 00:13:39.419 been doing for a living. So, so I knew nothing back then, including how in 00:13:39.610 --> 00:13:44.707 some ways it was a little inappropriate for a stakeholder who had a point 00:13:44.740 --> 00:13:49.167 of view, presumably to become the neutral facilitator. I mean, that would 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:54.256 be a little hard to take if for folks who didn't agree with whatever that 00:13:54.289 --> 00:13:57.067 point of view was at the beginning. Right? So that's been a bit of a 00:13:57.100 --> 00:14:01.307 challenge for the group and I can understand that. But I think over the 00:14:01.340 --> 00:14:07.266 years, of course, I still disclose to clients, prospective clients that I 00:14:07.299 --> 00:14:11.636 that I worked for american rivers for a couple of years, but it was too, 00:14:11.669 --> 00:14:17.187 you know, two years. Uh, so it wasn't very long, but it seems to have 00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:23.346 worked out pretty well. So that's how I became the facilitator mediator. 00:14:23.379 --> 00:14:30.837 And um, I will also say interestingly enough, this was the first river 00:14:30.870 --> 00:14:36.006 trip that the group took the first time. This whole group was on the river. 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:41.376 And there are quite a few tribes who participate in this group. And on 00:14:41.409 --> 00:14:45.476 the second day I wasn't on the river yet, but apparently on the second day 00:14:45.509 --> 00:14:51.636 , the tribes approached the trip leader and said, this is a very sacred 00:14:51.669 --> 00:14:58.197 place for us and we really need to be asking permission to be here every 00:14:58.230 --> 00:15:04.197 morning and we'd like to be able to pray if we could. And so the trip 00:15:04.230 --> 00:15:08.606 leader was the then head of the Grand Canyon monitoring research center 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:13.626 who is a devout jew and uh, he agreed even though this was a government 00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:17.726 sponsored trips. So every morning a different tribal member led the full 00:15:17.759 --> 00:15:23.626 group as much as they wanted to in a prayer. So it was fascinating to me 00:15:23.659 --> 00:15:26.827 because it's always, that place has always been a very spiritual place for 00:15:26.860 --> 00:15:30.667 me as well. And remember I had just come from a pilgrimage to the holy 00:15:30.700 --> 00:15:35.827 Land. So it was, it was like a continuation of this pilgrimage. Uh, and in 00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:43.860 fact part of the uh, the word spiritual actually ended up in the vision 00:15:45.690 --> 00:15:53.690 mission statement, which is pretty unusual again for a government group, 00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:59.146 Has your position. Um, as facilitator mediator changed over the years 00:15:59.179 --> 00:16:07.179 since 1999 when you first got that position? 00:16:09.740 --> 00:16:13.907 I'm not sure that it's changed 00:16:13.940 --> 00:16:18.907 in terms of expectations 00:16:18.940 --> 00:16:25.407 from me. 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:30.986 It has certainly changed in the execution as I learned more about what it 00:16:31.019 --> 00:16:38.907 was I was supposed to be doing as a facilitator and mediator and 00:16:38.940 --> 00:16:42.996 the name has changed and on my contract originally, I think it was 00:16:43.029 --> 00:16:46.167 facilitator slash mediator and now it's facilitator, but I don't think 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:50.756 there's any significance to that. I think it's just the contracting 00:16:50.789 --> 00:16:52.807 vehicle. 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:57.317 Can you tell us a little bit about what you do as facilitator? What does 00:16:57.350 --> 00:17:01.506 the job entail? 00:17:01.539 --> 00:17:07.607 So probably the least interesting part is 00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:15.640 that I hope uh create the the the I pulled together the planning team 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:21.476 which involves the twig leadership, the Technical worker leadership, the 00:17:21.509 --> 00:17:25.867 am weak leadership, the Bureau of Reclamation. Whoever is in Washington 00:17:25.900 --> 00:17:30.107 who cares about this. And 00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:36.197 I'm the one who sends out the doodle poll to set a date to start planning 00:17:36.230 --> 00:17:42.796 this. Uh we we send out, we make sure that that someone has sent out a 00:17:42.829 --> 00:17:46.377 request to the entire group for agenda items. We look at everything that 00:17:46.410 --> 00:17:49.697 comes in, we put together an agenda. We make sure the secretary's designee 00:17:49.730 --> 00:17:56.006 is okay with the agenda and then I 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:02.607 work with everyone who is on the agenda to develop some kind of paperwork 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.516 for each agenda item that gets sent out in advance to everyone so they can 00:18:06.549 --> 00:18:09.377 be prepared for the meeting. What are you going to say? You know, what's 00:18:09.410 --> 00:18:13.586 the name of the agenda item? What's been, What do you want? Is this just 00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:17.066 an information sharing? Do you want feedback? Is there an action item, you 00:18:17.099 --> 00:18:20.756 know? Uh and then here's the back, here's what you need to know about this 00:18:20.789 --> 00:18:23.736 agenda item. So you're prepared to do whatever you need to do at the 00:18:23.769 --> 00:18:28.006 meeting and all that goes out mm a couple of weeks before the meeting. 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:33.407 That's a huge job and it needs to be done well. And and so I think we do 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:40.607 a pretty good job on that. And then uh as issues arise that look like they 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:48.640 might be contentious at the meeting, which happens, then I work with say 00:18:48.849 --> 00:18:56.157 someone's let's say someone has proposed a motion that is going to be 00:18:56.190 --> 00:19:01.506 difficult for some people to agree to. So this is a consensus based 00:19:01.539 --> 00:19:05.836 collaborative program by there. If you look at their operating procedures 00:19:05.869 --> 00:19:10.086 , they are expected to try to come to consensus. They do have a voting 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:15.246 mechanism if possible, but the consensus is first. So what so a consensus 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:22.766 process means is that um I may want X. But if other people can't live with 00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:27.736 X, could I live with X minus Y? Maybe I could. You know, So there's a 00:19:27.769 --> 00:19:30.826 little bit of give and take, what do you need to be able to support this 00:19:30.859 --> 00:19:33.957 concept. What's really important to me as the proposal of the motion? Of 00:19:33.990 --> 00:19:38.107 course, I would never propose a motion. Obviously I'm not a member, but, 00:19:38.140 --> 00:19:42.137 you know, I work with the folks who proposed the motion, I encourage them 00:19:42.170 --> 00:19:45.976 to reach out to other people. I even sometimes if they want me to, I will 00:19:46.009 --> 00:19:51.256 shop the their language around and see what um what changes might need to 00:19:51.289 --> 00:19:54.986 be made in order for it to be a consensus decision. But it's really better 00:19:55.019 --> 00:19:58.806 if they do it themselves, because then they really learn how to do that. 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:03.006 Well, we've got that um 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.036 coming up actually this week, there's a meeting, someone proposed a motion. 00:20:07.069 --> 00:20:11.877 It kind of at the last minute, uh, right near the deadline for proposing 00:20:11.910 --> 00:20:16.897 motions. It had some language in it, that wasn't going to be supported by 00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:21.496 some of the stakeholders. They shopped it around there, they're going to 00:20:21.529 --> 00:20:25.026 make changes to it, and maybe it'll turn out to be something that everyone 00:20:25.059 --> 00:20:29.816 can support. So, I do that kind of thing before the meeting. If I know 00:20:29.849 --> 00:20:33.097 what's coming, if I know that something's coming, I can also do it during 00:20:33.130 --> 00:20:38.756 the meeting. We have a habit now, because these are two day meetings, we 00:20:38.789 --> 00:20:42.437 have a habit now of putting all the action items on the first day, so that 00:20:42.470 --> 00:20:49.347 if they if there is a problem, then the chair can say, okay, well, the you 00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:53.496 made the most you proposed the motion. So you and you and you and you, all 00:20:53.529 --> 00:20:56.937 the people who seem to really care you get together over lunch or over 00:20:56.970 --> 00:21:00.536 dinner or overnight and come back to us with something that you think 00:21:00.569 --> 00:21:07.046 everyone can agree to. So tasking a small group to to work together on 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:12.457 language and then often whether I'm invited or not I will often show up 00:21:12.490 --> 00:21:16.927 and say do you need some help? Right because uh those kinds of things are 00:21:16.960 --> 00:21:24.960 not always easy to do so um so that is a lot of what I do. I um mhm. I 00:21:27.809 --> 00:21:35.746 also over the years have been able to institute certain mm protocols or 00:21:35.779 --> 00:21:40.647 norms that make that easier. For example when we first started we didn't 00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:45.746 have that packet of information in advance. And in fact I remember one day 00:21:45.779 --> 00:21:49.677 the number two person at the Science center finished his presentation, 00:21:49.710 --> 00:21:53.397 we're moving on to the next item and he comes up to me and he says I 00:21:53.430 --> 00:21:58.306 needed action. I needed them to say yes no or you know or something and I 00:21:58.339 --> 00:22:03.347 had I had no idea. So if I didn't have any idea, you know, no one had any 00:22:03.380 --> 00:22:09.107 idea. So then I thought wait a minute, that's we need to fix this. So now 00:22:09.140 --> 00:22:13.836 that's when I created what we call the agenda item form which includes at 00:22:13.869 --> 00:22:18.046 the very top right under the title, what's expected, you know, do you want 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:21.177 do you have isn't an action item? Do you just want feedback? Is it just 00:22:21.210 --> 00:22:25.427 you know information and then Q. And A. So so those kinds of things and 00:22:25.460 --> 00:22:31.226 then now we have a deadline for submitting a motion if you you can submit 00:22:31.259 --> 00:22:37.357 a motion at the meeting but the whole group has to vote to take up that 00:22:37.390 --> 00:22:43.566 motion. If you send it in in advance then almost by default it's on the 00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:47.056 agenda. Unless there's some real problem with it and you can get talked 00:22:47.089 --> 00:22:51.397 out of putting it on the agenda. But so those kinds of things make it 00:22:51.430 --> 00:22:58.746 easier to, I would say have less contentiousness at the meeting and more 00:22:58.779 --> 00:23:04.566 productivity at the meeting. So those are, so you had asked what do I do? 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:09.076 Those are a couple of the things I do after the meeting. I don't write the 00:23:09.109 --> 00:23:13.476 minutes but I review them and make sure that they're written well which 00:23:13.509 --> 00:23:18.117 they are. Um So that's not a problem. But that's pretty typical for a 00:23:18.150 --> 00:23:22.427 mediator facilitator to have the last word on the on the minutes so that 00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:27.857 they're written in a neutral way. Um And then anything that comes up 00:23:27.890 --> 00:23:32.586 between meetings, if there's some contentiousness, I've even mediated one 00:23:32.619 --> 00:23:37.326 on one between people like you know say to people in the program who just 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:42.387 couldn't stand even to be in the same room together. I've said let's try 00:23:42.420 --> 00:23:47.157 and work this out neither of you is going away. You know like what what 00:23:47.190 --> 00:23:51.407 can we do about this? You know and just of course mediation is always a 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:56.397 Voluntary process. So it has, they have to agree but that's that's over 00:23:56.430 --> 00:24:04.430 the last, what is it now, 17 years. Ah a little bit of everything. 00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:12.707 So Mary you've been involved since at least 1999. Um that's about 17 years 00:24:12.740 --> 00:24:19.046 and you've probably seen the program evolved through some stages or 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:24.447 significant changes. Can you talk a little bit about which changes that 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:31.607 you think are significant in that period that you've been involved 00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:39.586 When I first Got involved deeply in 1999 00:24:39.619 --> 00:24:47.006 as I recounted earlier, there were valid policy and management differences 00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:53.756 among group members and for some reason and since I wasn't there to see it 00:24:53.789 --> 00:24:58.506 evolve and I can't really say why for some reason that had devolved into 00:24:58.539 --> 00:25:02.207 some really 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:07.546 negative personal interactions, particularly on the technical work group 00:25:07.579 --> 00:25:11.306 on the twig, 00:25:11.339 --> 00:25:18.217 almost name calling and ad hominem attacks really unproductive kinds of 00:25:18.250 --> 00:25:20.607 communication 00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:25.016 and over the years that has really, and and even even there there were 00:25:25.049 --> 00:25:29.437 some periods of time on the am wig, the policy group, the adaptive 00:25:29.470 --> 00:25:34.226 management work group. There there have been times when there were very, 00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:42.259 very difficult interpersonal conflicts there people who seem to sometimes 00:25:42.440 --> 00:25:45.707 ah enjoy 00:25:45.740 --> 00:25:53.740 um stirring things up or saying things that would be seen as pretty 00:25:54.140 --> 00:25:56.407 controversial 00:25:56.440 --> 00:26:01.236 for and not not just to say, hey we need to talk about this and work this 00:26:01.269 --> 00:26:06.026 through but it seemed to me that sometimes it was just to rile other 00:26:06.059 --> 00:26:10.127 people up. So that has really changed over the years. And I think part of 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:16.927 it has been that people, some people moved on. Uh part of it has been a 00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:20.296 change in leadership. 00:26:20.329 --> 00:26:26.607 I I know that there was a 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:33.806 Bush appointee who really who talked very 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:41.839 ah frankly to the interior agencies about infighting among them. And then 00:26:44.059 --> 00:26:52.059 we had a um an Obama appointee and Castle Who was the chair of the Group 00:26:52.900 --> 00:26:59.187 for Almost eight years, who had been the managing partner at a law firm, 00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:05.197 which has some similarities where you have to, you know, acknowledge 00:27:05.230 --> 00:27:10.147 everyone's point of view and also encourage people to move together in in 00:27:10.180 --> 00:27:15.207 a direction. And she was, she was masterful and really help people 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:19.756 acknowledge differences, not not gloss over them because that's not the 00:27:19.789 --> 00:27:23.147 point but to acknowledge them, bring them out in the open, be able to talk 00:27:23.180 --> 00:27:27.637 about them well agree to disagree sometimes, but also find ways to agree. 00:27:27.670 --> 00:27:33.677 So I'd say that's one of the big changes over the years to when I first 00:27:33.710 --> 00:27:41.447 started, I think probably because the secretary's designee um was often in 00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:45.927 the early years, not an assistant Secretary of the Interior, but a senior 00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:49.937 person within the Bureau of Reclamation, which almost always meant an 00:27:49.970 --> 00:27:54.546 engineer who are not always the best people when it comes to process, it's 00:27:54.579 --> 00:28:02.006 just not part of their training, often, not always, of course, But so even 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:06.806 though the operating procedures, as far as I know, always said, this is a 00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:09.996 consensus based group. But if you can't reach consensus, then you can go 00:28:10.029 --> 00:28:14.447 to a vote and then it's a supermajority vote of some kind of that number. 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:19.197 The percent has changed over the years. But what what would happen in 00:28:19.230 --> 00:28:25.157 practice is that the issue would come up? The discussion would start, 00:28:25.190 --> 00:28:28.927 there'd be disagreement. They'd go to a vote because they didn't really 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:32.377 know how as a group or as the leadership, they didn't really know how to 00:28:32.410 --> 00:28:36.907 help a group move toward consensus. It's not necessarily something any of 00:28:36.940 --> 00:28:43.387 us is taught. So, over the years, even though it's very hard when a group 00:28:43.420 --> 00:28:47.976 has a history of several years and then somebody new comes in and says, 00:28:48.009 --> 00:28:51.427 wait a minute, you're it says consensus here, shall we? Do you want to try 00:28:51.460 --> 00:28:55.097 to get Well, that's, wait a minute. That sounds kind of scary. I don't 00:28:55.130 --> 00:28:58.556 know what that looks like. So over the years, eventually there was a 00:28:58.589 --> 00:29:02.607 secretary's designee. And again, at this point, we are at the secretary's 00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:06.516 with the secretary's designee being the assistant secretary. Eventually 00:29:06.549 --> 00:29:10.897 there was one who understood the value of consensus because remember back 00:29:10.930 --> 00:29:13.697 Bruce babbitt at the very beginning, he wanted to know what everyone could 00:29:13.730 --> 00:29:18.197 agree to. Is there something maybe there's nothing on a particular issue 00:29:18.230 --> 00:29:21.746 that's okay, that's information for the secretary, right, that's very good 00:29:21.779 --> 00:29:26.617 information, They don't agree on this. But if everyone in this incredibly 00:29:26.650 --> 00:29:30.667 diverse group, if everyone can agree, then that's really important 00:29:30.700 --> 00:29:35.417 information for the secretary to write. So eventually we got a secretary's 00:29:35.450 --> 00:29:39.367 designee who I think understood a little bit about the value of consensus 00:29:39.400 --> 00:29:47.400 and was willing to to try it. And so now that was Limbaugh. I've forgotten 00:29:47.440 --> 00:29:50.607 his first name. This is a Bush appointee. 00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:57.637 And uh, if you look back at one point, I was, look, I was going to write a 00:29:57.670 --> 00:30:02.036 paper about this for my master's program. But if you look at the number of 00:30:02.069 --> 00:30:07.627 votes versus consensus items over the years under his leadership, then you 00:30:07.660 --> 00:30:13.637 start seeing many, many, many more consensus. And these days, um, I 00:30:13.670 --> 00:30:19.036 wouldn't say it's 100%. Uh, nor should it be, uh, you know, there are 00:30:19.069 --> 00:30:23.026 times when it's important not to agree, right? And and I never in any 00:30:23.059 --> 00:30:28.076 group, I would never say I would never promise consensus to my client. And 00:30:28.109 --> 00:30:32.556 I would never, you know, really push people to consensus when when they 00:30:32.589 --> 00:30:36.976 had honest disagreements. But maybe you can you can disagree. You know, if 00:30:37.009 --> 00:30:41.647 you have a motion, that's this big, maybe you disagree on that part. So 00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:44.877 let's get that out of the motion. And let's say this is it. And then the 00:30:44.910 --> 00:30:48.667 minutes can reflect that that piece people didn't agree to. But this piece 00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:53.167 they did. So that again, what's useful information for the secretary? The 00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:56.697 point of this program is to give recommendations to the secretary on the 00:30:56.730 --> 00:31:01.877 management of the dam and other dam operations and non dam operations 00:31:01.910 --> 00:31:08.107 suggestions for them purpose of the the green paint protection act. So 00:31:08.140 --> 00:31:12.607 what can people agree to? So that's been a that was a major change uh 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:20.640 moving from voting to um to consensus also extremely contentious. Too much 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:24.677 more collegial. And then I would say the third thing that at least from 00:31:24.710 --> 00:31:29.097 the process standpoint, obviously there's many more policy and science 00:31:29.130 --> 00:31:32.137 changes that happen. But I'm gonna focus on the process since that's my 00:31:32.170 --> 00:31:38.056 area. I would say from really disorganized, too much more organized being 00:31:38.089 --> 00:31:41.957 organized as one of my superpowers. So when I when I start working with a 00:31:41.990 --> 00:31:46.316 group that's that's something that I really work on it. You know, can do 00:31:46.349 --> 00:31:50.417 we have consistent protocols. Do we have consistent norms? Do people know 00:31:50.450 --> 00:31:54.847 what to expect? Are people always asked in advance what agenda items they 00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:57.687 want on the on the agenda? You know, because that's part of your operating 00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:00.897 procedure. So you gotta make sure that happens, that kind of thing. So 00:32:00.930 --> 00:32:07.306 those would be three main areas I would say of changes. Great. 00:32:07.339 --> 00:32:13.226 Were there any external events that happened during your tenure that had a 00:32:13.259 --> 00:32:16.506 significant impact 00:32:16.539 --> 00:32:20.476 the functioning or the direction 00:32:20.509 --> 00:32:25.506 mm width the issues that had addressed. Sure. Every time there's a change 00:32:25.539 --> 00:32:30.246 in administration. We have a change in Secretary of the Interior and we 00:32:30.279 --> 00:32:34.917 have a change in the assistant secretary and then close to the end of 00:32:34.950 --> 00:32:40.586 every administration at least that person leaves. And you can have a kind 00:32:40.619 --> 00:32:44.226 of a revolving door over the last six or eight months pretty normal in any 00:32:44.259 --> 00:32:48.826 administration. So anytime this from my standpoint on the process side, 00:32:48.859 --> 00:32:52.457 you know, I'm working with the chair of the group when the chair of the 00:32:52.490 --> 00:32:56.847 group changes, my job can change quite considerably. And of course it has 00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.957 a huge impact on the rest of the group as well. So that's an external 00:32:59.990 --> 00:33:04.417 event that has regular changes. And now we've had a pretty monumental 00:33:04.450 --> 00:33:10.417 change. Um in terms of politics, politics, from the Obama administration 00:33:10.450 --> 00:33:14.796 to the trump administration just now. So as an example, of course that 00:33:14.829 --> 00:33:20.006 happened from clinton to bush and so on. So it happens. And then you have 00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:26.687 people with frankly varying levels of interest in the program. There have 00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:30.217 been times when this group has had a hard time getting the attention of 00:33:30.250 --> 00:33:36.976 the Secretary of the Interior, um various levels. So the interest level 00:33:37.009 --> 00:33:43.556 can vary and the certainly the policies would vary what they might agree 00:33:43.589 --> 00:33:48.766 to or not agree to do. It's gonna vary. So that's that's huge other 00:33:48.799 --> 00:33:52.957 external events when things happen in the ecosystem. So there was a time 00:33:52.990 --> 00:34:00.990 when um the humpback chub is a native fish in the system. That is probably 00:34:01.829 --> 00:34:06.907 the one native fish that has the best chance of, they're all either 00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:12.367 endangered or they're gone. And the humpback chub is the one that most 00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:17.396 people believe it has the best chance of recovery. So we focus a lot on 00:34:17.429 --> 00:34:20.336 the humpback shop, what are the numbers? And there was a time when the 00:34:20.369 --> 00:34:25.747 numbers were really going down and the whole program, just all they would 00:34:25.780 --> 00:34:29.767 focus on for a couple of years were what what can we do, what you know, 00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:32.427 what should we do? We don't want to do too much, I don't want to do too 00:34:32.460 --> 00:34:37.637 little, what can we do to try and help those numbers come back? So that's 00:34:37.670 --> 00:34:42.867 certainly an external event. We recently had an external event of a non 00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:49.467 native uh dangerous kind of fish. Green sunfish that was found in in the 00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:55.057 upper reaches of the river, that precluded a high flow experiment, because 00:34:55.090 --> 00:34:57.736 if a whole bunch of water came through then these green sunfish would be 00:34:57.769 --> 00:35:01.477 dispersed throughout the system, for example. So yeah, there's always, I 00:35:01.510 --> 00:35:07.606 mean we're in the we're in the ecosystem management business which is to 00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:10.767 my mind the height of hubris that we think we can do it for the in the 00:35:10.800 --> 00:35:14.997 first place. But um you know there's always things happening in the 00:35:15.030 --> 00:35:17.657 ecosystem that are going to change what what we're what we're looking at 00:35:17.690 --> 00:35:20.447 and what we what what they are looking at and what they think they ought 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:22.807 to be doing. 00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:26.896 So you said you're in the ecosystem management business, which is 00:35:26.929 --> 00:35:32.697 certainly true uh is also in the damn management business to a certain 00:35:32.730 --> 00:35:39.367 extent. Mhm. Your recommendations to the secretary or primarily how the 00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:45.347 dam should be managed to help recover ecosystems. Um when you came on 00:35:45.380 --> 00:35:51.827 board in 1999, that was the beginning of an extensive 17 year drought. 00:35:51.860 --> 00:35:54.006 Essentialments 00:35:54.039 --> 00:35:58.427 the Southwest has been in an extended drought the entire time that you've 00:35:58.460 --> 00:36:05.847 been um leg and the lake level, you know, behind Glen Canyon dam has been 00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:11.456 dropping steadily until the point where now it's it's below half full. And 00:36:11.489 --> 00:36:16.256 there's even people talking about whether maybe we should drain it and put 00:36:16.289 --> 00:36:22.006 all that water in lake meet, do you think that the drought and the falling 00:36:22.039 --> 00:36:28.177 lake levels have had any impact on am Wig and its evolution Over the last 00:36:28.210 --> 00:36:33.836 17 years? Sure, it's a huge external event that's had an impact on the 00:36:33.869 --> 00:36:41.497 program. And also just what, not only what's happening now, but what do we 00:36:41.530 --> 00:36:46.327 anticipate in the future with with the climate apparently changing and 00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:51.796 that we can maybe expect more drought rather than less in the Southwest. 00:36:51.829 --> 00:36:55.497 Um 00:36:55.530 --> 00:37:01.117 the interim guidelines that was that was negotiated between the upper and 00:37:01.150 --> 00:37:06.887 lower basin states, for example, there's a, so this is an interesting 00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:14.657 program because there's a lot that happens that you you correctly said 00:37:14.690 --> 00:37:18.427 that this group's job to a large extent is making a recommendation of the 00:37:18.460 --> 00:37:23.296 secretary on how to operate Glen Canyon dam. However, 00:37:23.329 --> 00:37:27.977 the amount of leeway that there is to change operations in Glen Canyon Dam 00:37:28.010 --> 00:37:32.456 is pretty small because there are lots of other processes outside of the 00:37:32.489 --> 00:37:37.106 adaptive management program that prescribe how that dams run. And a lot of 00:37:37.139 --> 00:37:44.166 that is through court cases and laws and negotiate compacts among the 00:37:44.199 --> 00:37:47.747 states with and of course the secretary is the water master of the 00:37:47.780 --> 00:37:55.197 colorado. So um equalization between Lake Mead and Lake Powell for example. 00:37:55.230 --> 00:38:00.827 That's part of I believe a compact among the states. Uh so if somebody 00:38:00.860 --> 00:38:07.626 wants to film me first, which is a rallying cry that I've heard um that 00:38:07.659 --> 00:38:12.186 would have to be a change in that negotiated compact for example. So 00:38:12.219 --> 00:38:20.219 there's a lot, so this drought and um has of course generated um a lot of 00:38:21.260 --> 00:38:25.876 consternation among the states who rely on the water. Um All of the states 00:38:25.909 --> 00:38:29.856 are represented on the am wig primarily because they want to protect their 00:38:29.889 --> 00:38:35.097 allocation from the river. And because so much of their state's future is 00:38:35.130 --> 00:38:41.416 tied up with that water that they get from the Colorado River. So um they 00:38:41.449 --> 00:38:46.657 are there among other reasons to protect those interests. I mean, a lot of 00:38:46.690 --> 00:38:49.697 people are at the table to protect their interests of course and to 00:38:49.730 --> 00:38:55.557 advance their interests. So yes, anything like a drought uh is gonna have 00:38:55.590 --> 00:39:01.986 a huge impact on on all of on the entire program 00:39:02.019 --> 00:39:08.977 has representation on the Amway changed Since 1999. Not not individuals, 00:39:09.010 --> 00:39:12.367 but the categories of people who are representative. Has that been stable 00:39:12.400 --> 00:39:19.637 ? No. Yes it has been stable. It has not changed. There was some effort a 00:39:19.670 --> 00:39:25.186 couple of years ago because the Grand Canyon Protection Protection Act 00:39:25.219 --> 00:39:30.416 names all of the categories that shall be reprieved that that the that 00:39:30.449 --> 00:39:35.166 reclamation shall consult with. And there are a couple of, almost all the 00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:38.407 categories are represented on the adaptive management workgroup and also 00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:42.497 on the technical work group. With the exception of the scientific and 00:39:42.530 --> 00:39:49.477 academic communities. And there was some effort to enlarge the am wig to 00:39:49.510 --> 00:39:54.637 include not the scientific community because they really, you know, there 00:39:54.670 --> 00:39:59.606 there is a a U. S. Geological Survey entity that provides science for the 00:39:59.639 --> 00:40:02.686 program. So I think everybody feels that that's adequately represented. 00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:07.387 But there was an effort to some folks who thought that the academic world 00:40:07.420 --> 00:40:12.436 should be represented with a with a permanent seat on the am wagon. Other 00:40:12.469 --> 00:40:16.617 folks disagreed. So the compromise that was made at that point was to make 00:40:16.650 --> 00:40:22.157 a make a real effort to bring in different voices to present to the group 00:40:22.190 --> 00:40:26.447 that wouldn't be the same old, same old. So we've seen some different 00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:31.276 people on the agenda to present as a result of that, but the actual seats 00:40:31.309 --> 00:40:37.077 have not changed. 00:40:37.110 --> 00:40:44.057 So you've mentioned particular secretary, the Interior's designee who made 00:40:44.090 --> 00:40:48.347 a big difference in the program. I'm wondering if you can think back over 00:40:48.380 --> 00:40:53.327 the last 17 years about any other individuals who you feel had a 00:40:53.360 --> 00:41:01.360 significant impact on the program. And what was it? 00:41:01.409 --> 00:41:06.546 Well being a student of group dynamics, every individual around the table 00:41:06.579 --> 00:41:11.896 has an impact on the process and everyone who leaves and is replaced by 00:41:11.929 --> 00:41:18.097 someone else completely changes that entire system. So I would have to say 00:41:18.130 --> 00:41:21.776 that every stakeholder that has sat at the table has had an impact on the 00:41:21.809 --> 00:41:24.077 program. 00:41:24.110 --> 00:41:31.977 Of course some more than others. Um 00:41:32.010 --> 00:41:37.157 I would say the in addition to the stakeholders, the person who has held 00:41:37.190 --> 00:41:44.506 the role of the chief of the science center also is a very key role and I 00:41:44.539 --> 00:41:52.046 would say maybe the most difficult role in the entire group because here's 00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:56.606 a person who needs to be able to lead a science center that's um that 00:41:56.639 --> 00:41:59.776 meets the 00:41:59.809 --> 00:42:04.537 the criteria of good science of the U. S. Geological Survey which at least 00:42:04.570 --> 00:42:07.206 under Secretary babbitt, I don't know how it's changed since then but at 00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:14.626 least under Secretary babbitt Usgs was was being was was the science 00:42:14.659 --> 00:42:18.807 provider for the Department of the Interior. So this is it's huge. And 00:42:18.840 --> 00:42:25.247 they have extremely well thought out protocols for for good science. Right 00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:30.247 ? So so you have to have someone who's a very good scientist and can lead 00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:38.280 scientists and can lead a department of Mhm. five or six very different 00:42:38.809 --> 00:42:45.407 but hopefully integrated fields of study um from economics to riparian 00:42:45.440 --> 00:42:51.407 vegetation to fish to sediment. You know, all that plus the person has to 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:58.856 be able to talk to and be understood by these policy makers on the 00:42:58.889 --> 00:43:01.776 adaptive management program, on the adaptive management work group. I 00:43:01.809 --> 00:43:06.606 would say the am wig, they're all policymakers in their own world and in 00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:09.097 this instance they're not making policy, they're simply making 00:43:09.130 --> 00:43:15.456 recommendations to the secretary. But of course we're dealing with people 00:43:15.489 --> 00:43:21.307 who have very different worldviews, very different hopes and wishes about 00:43:21.340 --> 00:43:25.307 what's going to happen in a lot of cases with the dam and with the river, 00:43:25.340 --> 00:43:31.267 with the ecosystem, there's a lot of conflict sometimes, 00:43:31.300 --> 00:43:35.106 sometimes not so obvious, but it's always there and and it should be. I 00:43:35.139 --> 00:43:38.436 mean that was the point of this program was to bring together people who 00:43:38.469 --> 00:43:42.856 don't agree with each other to see what they could agree to. And I will 00:43:42.889 --> 00:43:47.517 say that scientists aren't always 00:43:47.550 --> 00:43:53.427 super well trained in group dynamics or in conflict. It's not what they 00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:57.347 signed up for. Right? I mean, now I'm certainly there are some who are 00:43:57.380 --> 00:44:03.396 very good at that. But to find a person who can run this program that that 00:44:03.429 --> 00:44:06.686 who has to be really good on the science side and also has to be pretty 00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:11.057 good on the conflict management side just to be able to talk to folks in 00:44:11.090 --> 00:44:14.867 in a, in a good way to help them understand. That's a big job that's a 00:44:14.900 --> 00:44:19.526 very big job to fill. So I think those folks have also been key people you 00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:24.197 admire, who has been able to balance those two different skills. Well, I 00:44:24.230 --> 00:44:29.717 think our current uh fellow scott van decoy is doing a really good job at 00:44:29.750 --> 00:44:34.017 that. Uh, he of course I, you know, I'm not part of his organization, so I 00:44:34.050 --> 00:44:37.537 can't tell what a good job he's doing, managing his program, but he seems 00:44:37.570 --> 00:44:42.247 to do a very good job of managing the adaptive management personnel when 00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:48.356 he's in the meetings. Sure. So you've touched on this a little bit already 00:44:48.389 --> 00:44:56.389 , but I'm I'm wondering what you think you've been able to accomplish and 00:44:56.789 --> 00:45:00.836 Sort of summit of way over your 17 years, what do you think has been your 00:45:00.869 --> 00:45:06.137 most significant accomplishments? Well, nothing by myself, first of all, 00:45:06.170 --> 00:45:12.657 because I am, you know, a facilitator and mediator 00:45:12.690 --> 00:45:18.217 can only do what she's allowed to do by the group. Right? I mean, I cannot 00:45:18.250 --> 00:45:26.250 go in and say, thou shalt do X, Y, Z can't do it. But certainly 00:45:27.079 --> 00:45:33.407 into a world that really, I didn't understand process. And even to this 00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:37.557 day probably doesn't care too much about process. 00:45:37.590 --> 00:45:41.396 It does benefit a group to have somebody who's paying attention to process 00:45:41.429 --> 00:45:44.586 and who every once in a while says, you know, you guys really need to talk 00:45:44.619 --> 00:45:48.557 a little bit about how you're working together, not just what you're doing 00:45:48.590 --> 00:45:52.427 the substantive stuff, but how are you working together? So I think I 00:45:52.460 --> 00:46:00.206 brought a little bit of that as I mentioned earlier, 00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:05.657 there are a lot of venues for at least some of the members of the adaptive 00:46:05.690 --> 00:46:10.637 management work group to get done what they need to get done outside of 00:46:10.670 --> 00:46:18.517 the am wig outside of this group. So like the States and the hydropower 00:46:18.550 --> 00:46:24.617 advocates, they have long standing relationships with interior with each 00:46:24.650 --> 00:46:32.347 other that did not go away, nor should they when AM wig was formed. So, um 00:46:32.380 --> 00:46:38.876 , so there's a lot that gets done outside of the am wig that, but I think 00:46:38.909 --> 00:46:43.606 one of the real benefits of the program is that all of those processes 00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:48.706 have become a lot less opaque to the other stakeholders around the table, 00:46:48.739 --> 00:46:52.486 the environmental folks, the recreational representatives, the tribes and 00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:57.066 so on. They now can see at least a little bit behind the curtain as to how 00:46:57.099 --> 00:47:03.477 these things work and they can be part of some of that, some of that uh, 00:47:03.510 --> 00:47:09.747 discussion and recommendation. 00:47:09.780 --> 00:47:12.876 You asked me what I've accomplished? So just maybe a little bit of better 00:47:12.909 --> 00:47:17.887 process, better organization, but only because the group allowed me to do 00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:23.247 that and more transparency. Hopefully, 00:47:23.280 --> 00:47:25.747 how about 00:47:25.780 --> 00:47:29.526 is there anything that you wish you could have accomplished and haven't 00:47:29.559 --> 00:47:34.146 been able to yet any regrets about. 00:47:34.179 --> 00:47:42.179 I don't have any regrets. I think that the um, we are moving toward 00:47:46.579 --> 00:47:52.157 maybe getting to know each other better personally, which is good. We have 00:47:52.190 --> 00:47:58.637 now a uh deputy or Assistant regional Director of Reclamation who's very 00:47:58.670 --> 00:48:03.767 good at at social events. And so we have a social event at every damn wig 00:48:03.800 --> 00:48:06.436 meeting now which I think is very important for people to get to know each 00:48:06.469 --> 00:48:10.566 other a little bit better. It it helps when if I really disagree with you 00:48:10.599 --> 00:48:18.599 , I can I can put you into a little box of bad, you're bad, I'm good. So 00:48:19.219 --> 00:48:24.106 why should I even bother right? Because you're so bad and you you just 00:48:24.139 --> 00:48:29.467 you're you're you're so wrong. But if I sit down and have a drink with you 00:48:29.500 --> 00:48:33.706 or have a meal with you or you know socialize with you a little bit and I 00:48:33.739 --> 00:48:36.936 get to know you a little bit better. Then maybe my mind is a little bit 00:48:36.969 --> 00:48:40.736 more open to saying, okay, well I still think you're really wrong but let 00:48:40.769 --> 00:48:46.217 me try and understand how you got to wear. You are so wrong. If I can 00:48:46.250 --> 00:48:50.197 understand that and maybe help you understand where I got where I am, then 00:48:50.230 --> 00:48:54.387 maybe down the road we can find a way to agree. Maybe not on everything, 00:48:54.420 --> 00:48:58.526 but we can find ways that I can help. I can say, well if we did it this 00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:02.157 way then I get what I need and you get what you need. So we're we're 00:49:02.190 --> 00:49:05.166 moving towards that now. I don't think we've had a lot of that in the past. 00:49:05.199 --> 00:49:10.436 So I think that's very good um 00:49:10.469 --> 00:49:15.617 unlike a lot of groups that I work with, 00:49:15.650 --> 00:49:19.137 many of the people at the table 00:49:19.170 --> 00:49:21.736 are not free 00:49:21.769 --> 00:49:26.736 to make any agreement that they think makes sense to them personally, 00:49:26.769 --> 00:49:32.126 right? Because they represent an interest group, they are appointed by a 00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:35.977 governor of a state. You know, one individual is not going to change state 00:49:36.010 --> 00:49:40.997 policy just because they've had an aha moment at the table. Right? Same 00:49:41.030 --> 00:49:45.537 with maybe an environmental group. Maybe they've maybe they've got strict 00:49:45.570 --> 00:49:50.577 orders that, you know, you don't go beyond here. Um Same the tribe to 00:49:50.610 --> 00:49:57.836 tribal members, you know, many of the tribes um 00:49:57.869 --> 00:50:03.637 are have a very collaborative decision making process and there may be 00:50:03.670 --> 00:50:08.907 someone who is sitting at the table from a tribe, but in order to really 00:50:08.940 --> 00:50:12.017 talk to make a decision, they have to go back and check with tribal 00:50:12.050 --> 00:50:16.697 council, for example. So it makes it really hard. I know when I do two 00:50:16.730 --> 00:50:22.077 person mediations, which I sometimes do for pro bono for, you know, small 00:50:22.110 --> 00:50:25.427 claims court or something like that. It's very important to have the 00:50:25.460 --> 00:50:29.977 decision maker in the room because otherwise you can you can waste hours. 00:50:30.010 --> 00:50:34.227 Um So, and so in this instance, 00:50:34.260 --> 00:50:39.126 people aren't so free to say, okay, now that I understand, I really 00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:44.376 understand where you're coming from, then we can we can we can make a deal 00:50:44.409 --> 00:50:48.247 in this way, you know, I can give this up because it's not that important 00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:51.497 to me and I can see it's really important to you and we can move forward 00:50:51.530 --> 00:50:53.717 together, 00:50:53.750 --> 00:51:00.727 That kind of thing now might take years or decades instead of hours just 00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:05.037 because people aren't so free there. Now, that's this is not a regret I 00:51:05.070 --> 00:51:11.947 have. It's just an understanding of how this program works and how it how 00:51:11.980 --> 00:51:15.626 it will work in the future. Almost certainly, 00:51:15.659 --> 00:51:19.267 it's kind of the nature of democratic processes, especially if you're 00:51:19.300 --> 00:51:24.407 seeking consensus rather than just majority rule, it can be depending on 00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:29.126 who's in the room. Now, if you had all the governors in the room 00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:34.066 that would might be a different story, um right, right. If you have the 00:51:34.099 --> 00:51:39.296 decision or if the or if the decision making authority were delegated. But 00:51:39.329 --> 00:51:44.217 when you're talking about the Colorado River, frankly colorado, you know, 00:51:44.250 --> 00:51:51.086 there's this, there's this box called the Law of the River that contains 00:51:51.119 --> 00:51:56.497 all of the major laws that have been passed by Congress, all of the 00:51:56.530 --> 00:52:04.530 Supreme Court ah decisions that impact the river multistate compacts. 00:52:06.349 --> 00:52:10.307 You know, there's a lot of what we're dealing with is prescribed. So it's 00:52:10.340 --> 00:52:14.657 very hard to be nimble and to change things on the fly, even if maybe an 00:52:14.690 --> 00:52:20.276 individual at the table believes it should be changed. That tension 00:52:20.309 --> 00:52:27.497 between being collaborative and following the rules and the laws tension 00:52:27.530 --> 00:52:34.956 between that and being nimble and adapting quickly and having a kind of a 00:52:34.989 --> 00:52:42.989 top down command structure that can make decisions fast. Do you do you 00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:49.506 think that the model of decision making for the AM wig is the appropriate 00:52:49.539 --> 00:52:54.486 one for the resources and the challenges that we face or is it inadequate 00:52:54.519 --> 00:52:57.617 because of its slowness? 00:52:57.650 --> 00:53:02.347 Well, I would also throw in the whole adaptive management process which 00:53:02.380 --> 00:53:06.956 says that you do experiments and you see what happens and then you change 00:53:06.989 --> 00:53:11.586 management based on what you see what happens that's there are people who 00:53:11.619 --> 00:53:14.816 say this isn't a true adaptive management program for that reason because 00:53:14.849 --> 00:53:21.106 it cannot adopt management actions so easily. Even if even if an 00:53:21.139 --> 00:53:24.477 experiment put, you know, seems to say that that's a management action 00:53:24.510 --> 00:53:29.807 that should be, that should happen. But you asked whether the whether the 00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:35.347 decision making or the management regime of the AM wig is appropriate. And 00:53:35.380 --> 00:53:41.316 I would say absolutely it is. But remember 00:53:41.349 --> 00:53:45.497 the AM wig is not the only entity that has an impact on how the Colorado 00:53:45.530 --> 00:53:51.947 River ecosystem is managed. And also this is only one stretch of that of 00:53:51.980 --> 00:53:58.126 that river. Right? So, um, so in some ways it's completely inadequate. I 00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:03.046 mean, so but for what it is the Amway remember, and it is a federal 00:54:03.079 --> 00:54:07.706 advisory committee designed to advise the Secretary of the Interior on how 00:54:07.739 --> 00:54:11.677 to reach the goals of the Grand Canyon Protection Act, protect mitigate 00:54:11.710 --> 00:54:18.756 adverse impacts to and and and maintain I'm missing a word, the values for 00:54:18.789 --> 00:54:23.307 which the two national parks downstream of the dam were created right? Um 00:54:23.340 --> 00:54:26.807 , 00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:32.427 and I keep going back to Bruce babbitt's speech where he said, I want to 00:54:32.460 --> 00:54:36.526 know what everybody agrees to for those purposes. Yes, I think it's 00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:38.606 adequate. 00:54:38.639 --> 00:54:42.986 Some of the people that we are interviewing have talked about things that 00:54:43.019 --> 00:54:48.166 surprised them during their experience in the program, And I'm wondering 00:54:48.199 --> 00:54:52.416 if anything has happened in the last 17 years in your experience that 00:54:52.449 --> 00:54:58.907 surprised you? Hmm, I'm sure there has been something 00:54:58.940 --> 00:55:02.646 I know, I have said from time to time that things that I didn't think 00:55:02.679 --> 00:55:06.747 would be controversial turned out to be controversial and vice versa. I 00:55:06.780 --> 00:55:11.909 can't I can't think of anything specifically off the top of my head. 00:55:12.019 --> 00:55:14.019 Probably some of the ad hominem attacks at the very beginning really 00:55:14.909 --> 00:55:19.876 surprised me just because I wasn't used to seeing that in a, in a 00:55:19.909 --> 00:55:25.706 professional setting, but 00:55:25.739 --> 00:55:30.807 I can't think of anything else. You have mentioned a few times 00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:36.677 controversies that crop up. Now, can you mention a few of the 00:55:36.710 --> 00:55:42.006 controversies that you've been through that you thought resulted in some 00:55:42.039 --> 00:55:46.907 significant resolution or didn't 00:55:46.940 --> 00:55:54.940 one that I that's that's extent. Now is the whole idea of equalization 00:55:55.139 --> 00:56:00.006 between the between the two reservoirs and I can't say I even fully 00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:05.796 understand equalization, but it's an important concept for the states, 00:56:05.829 --> 00:56:11.986 they rely on it. Remember Lake Powell is like the savings account for the 00:56:12.019 --> 00:56:16.206 upper basin, if there's a drought, they can still meet their their 00:56:16.239 --> 00:56:20.986 obligation to push water downstream toward the lower basin states, that's 00:56:21.019 --> 00:56:24.776 part of their part of the deal, part of the law of the river, the upper 00:56:24.809 --> 00:56:28.706 basin states has to give water to make sure that the lower basin states 00:56:28.739 --> 00:56:33.856 gets a certain amount of water and then also then down to Mexico. And as 00:56:33.889 --> 00:56:37.077 you know, the drill with the drought, you know, there's there's not enough 00:56:37.110 --> 00:56:42.017 water anyway, so, and and even if from year to year you can have more or 00:56:42.050 --> 00:56:48.106 less water. So meade was developed to um be kind of the savings account 00:56:48.139 --> 00:56:51.307 for the upper basin states, even if it was a dry year, they could still 00:56:51.340 --> 00:56:55.146 give the water that need, they could push through the dam. The water that 00:56:55.179 --> 00:57:00.497 needed to go down to the lower basin states so equal. So 00:57:00.530 --> 00:57:04.537 then there's this concept of equalization, which as I said, I don't fully 00:57:04.570 --> 00:57:10.106 understand what if if there's a problem with equalization then and there's 00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:14.157 two, there's and more water than normal needs to be pushed down to the 00:57:14.190 --> 00:57:21.077 lower basin to need, then it's called equalization flows. In other words, 00:57:21.110 --> 00:57:24.807 there might be some higher flows that go through the dam that that 00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:28.936 accomplished that goal of equalization. Those flows are not so good for 00:57:28.969 --> 00:57:32.657 the ecosystem in some very specific ways that I'm not the right person to 00:57:32.690 --> 00:57:38.376 to explain. So how do you reconcile those two things? You know, they're 00:57:38.409 --> 00:57:43.416 both required by law, you know, you know, protecting the ecosystem and you 00:57:43.449 --> 00:57:47.396 know, protecting the water supply for for all the states, that's that's a 00:57:47.429 --> 00:57:50.557 big one. And you know, I think it's something that needs to be talked 00:57:50.590 --> 00:57:54.847 about some more needs to be better understood by everyone. So that's a big 00:57:54.880 --> 00:58:00.026 issue. I think when um, 00:58:00.059 --> 00:58:04.977 I think the biggest issues that come up come up, when some of the 00:58:05.010 --> 00:58:08.396 stakeholders want to see some really significant changes in how the dam 00:58:08.429 --> 00:58:14.387 works. And this can be very threatening to folks who um, who rely on 00:58:14.420 --> 00:58:18.407 specific dam operations in order to either generate hydropower at a 00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:24.256 certain cost that's not too high. And also to make sure that water, water 00:58:24.289 --> 00:58:29.416 storage and delivery occurs in the way that they needed to occur. So I 00:58:29.449 --> 00:58:34.086 think that's the major attention 00:58:34.119 --> 00:58:39.227 big picture. What do you think has been the fundamental value of this 00:58:39.260 --> 00:58:46.586 program? Should it be continued? 00:58:46.619 --> 00:58:49.747 Should it be continued? I would say as long as the Secretary of the 00:58:49.780 --> 00:58:54.577 Interior is getting information that he or she finds valuable from the 00:58:54.610 --> 00:59:01.497 program, then Yes, it should be continued. If not then, no, I mean, it's 00:59:01.530 --> 00:59:09.530 pretty costly. And certainly the science part of it that is studying how 00:59:09.699 --> 00:59:17.077 the dam operations affect the downstream resources and the um, is, you 00:59:17.110 --> 00:59:21.227 know, probably should continue because otherwise, how do you make those 00:59:21.260 --> 00:59:26.557 decisions, but and with itself, you know, I think it really depends on if 00:59:26.590 --> 00:59:32.296 the secretary is finding it useful. And the other question was the 00:59:32.329 --> 00:59:38.387 fundamental value of oh well, 00:59:38.420 --> 00:59:43.796 so being the processed person, I know there have been a lot of good 00:59:43.829 --> 00:59:51.236 science and policy recommendation. Is science discoveries and policy 00:59:51.269 --> 00:59:59.269 recommendations made. Um I think also there's value in simply involving 00:59:59.610 --> 01:00:04.097 more people who care about that ecosystem in the decision making or at 01:00:04.130 --> 01:00:08.967 least in discussions about decision making. Because this group doesn't, as 01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:11.706 I say, this group is not a management group, It doesn't manage anything. 01:00:11.739 --> 01:00:16.006 It just makes recommendations to the secretary. But to pull the curtain 01:00:16.039 --> 01:00:21.146 back a little bit from how those decisions get made for folks who wouldn't 01:00:21.179 --> 01:00:24.717 normally see it like the like the tribes, the environmental organizations 01:00:24.750 --> 01:00:32.750 , the recreational organizations. I think that's very valuable. Um 01:00:33.010 --> 01:00:38.447 being a student of and of public policy and an advocate for good public 01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:44.986 policy, I have a bias that the more people who are who are listened to by 01:00:45.019 --> 01:00:49.057 the decision makers, by governmental decision makers, the better decision 01:00:49.090 --> 01:00:57.090 is going to be made more durable better for all folks and all critters. Um 01:00:57.510 --> 01:01:05.510 , and so I think this this really helps with that. It if if listen to it 01:01:06.380 --> 01:01:11.887 can be a conduit for better public policy. Are you hopeful about the 01:01:11.920 --> 01:01:15.526 future of the program? Do you think it's resilient and adaptable because 01:01:15.559 --> 01:01:20.907 we're going into a period of significant change. I think climatic change. 01:01:20.940 --> 01:01:26.916 Political change. Economic change. I am always optimistic. It's it's it's 01:01:26.949 --> 01:01:33.197 actually you know, part of my job description. So uh yeah I think this 01:01:33.230 --> 01:01:36.467 group can survive. I think it'll be really interesting to see who the next 01:01:36.500 --> 01:01:41.436 secretary designee is under the trump administration and what kind of what 01:01:41.469 --> 01:01:47.876 level of interest here she has. Um I think level of interest is the first 01:01:47.909 --> 01:01:54.546 question. How much do they care? You know, and then uh and then what do 01:01:54.579 --> 01:01:58.997 they care about and you know, how are they going to guide the program? I 01:01:59.030 --> 01:02:04.577 think we we recently had a just a few months ago a new environmental 01:02:04.610 --> 01:02:08.436 impact statement signed the long term experimental management plan. L. 01:02:08.469 --> 01:02:14.097 Temp E. I. S. And Rod the record of decision was signed. And that will 01:02:14.130 --> 01:02:18.896 make that has made significant change. That will have significant impact 01:02:18.929 --> 01:02:24.896 on how this program is run. Because certain things that the am wig always 01:02:24.929 --> 01:02:28.146 felt that it was in charge of like what are the goals and objectives of 01:02:28.179 --> 01:02:33.867 the program that's now laid out in the I. S. And in the rut. Um Certain 01:02:33.900 --> 01:02:37.756 things, certain recommendations that have been made every year to the 01:02:37.789 --> 01:02:42.537 secretary such as the hydra graph. What what should the hydrographic look 01:02:42.570 --> 01:02:47.776 like, what the levels of water in different days, weeks and months and you 01:02:47.809 --> 01:02:50.427 know for for a full year coming out of the damn what should that look like 01:02:50.460 --> 01:02:56.727 ? That's now pretty much um prescribed through the C. I. S. So things are 01:02:56.760 --> 01:03:03.327 changing I. And uh I'm not sure anyone quite knows what that's gonna look 01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:09.017 like. So we've got the l temp record of decision that will change things. 01:03:09.050 --> 01:03:12.396 We've got the new administration that will change things and I don't know 01:03:12.429 --> 01:03:17.267 I've worked under um maybe a dozen different secretaries designees so 01:03:17.300 --> 01:03:21.597 everyone's different and it's just a question of wait and see and in my 01:03:21.630 --> 01:03:27.367 role um Hewing hard to good process on the one hand which means 01:03:27.400 --> 01:03:33.776 transparent and um neutral and making sure everyone has the same 01:03:33.809 --> 01:03:39.276 opportunity to participate which is a challenge. And so that's my job on 01:03:39.309 --> 01:03:43.217 the one hand and then on the other hand serving the chair in the way he or 01:03:43.250 --> 01:03:49.026 she wants to be served. So like for example some chairs wanted me to run 01:03:49.059 --> 01:03:55.157 the meeting and they just stepped in when they saw a need and other chairs 01:03:55.190 --> 01:03:58.657 in recent years they've run the meeting that they've had the skill level 01:03:58.690 --> 01:04:01.776 and you know I'm just sitting next to them, you know providing whatever 01:04:01.809 --> 01:04:06.497 support I can. So so on the one hand so with the new secretary's designee 01:04:06.530 --> 01:04:11.097 hewing hard to good process, making sure that person understands what the 01:04:11.130 --> 01:04:15.847 values are that are in my view incontrovertible have to happen at least 01:04:15.880 --> 01:04:19.247 for me to be involved. Then on the other hand how can I support you best. 01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:25.217 What do you need from me to help this program move forward. It's a 01:04:25.250 --> 01:04:29.956 learning process with every new secretary's designate. So 01:04:29.989 --> 01:04:34.097 one of the purposes of doing this administrative history is to help the 01:04:34.130 --> 01:04:41.066 next generation of participants on I am wig to be as effective as possible 01:04:41.099 --> 01:04:46.956 to understand how we got to where we are today, how the process works. Um 01:04:46.989 --> 01:04:54.217 can you think of any other ways in which a historical perspective on this 01:04:54.250 --> 01:05:01.637 program could help um new members of an wig to uh to be more effective 01:05:01.670 --> 01:05:05.267 participants. What advice would you give a new person coming on that you 01:05:05.300 --> 01:05:10.057 would like them to hear from from somebody with a deep experience. Like 01:05:10.090 --> 01:05:16.006 I'd say due to my experience both as a new am Wig member and also then 01:05:16.039 --> 01:05:20.506 from a process standpoint the technical day. If you if you're not coming 01:05:20.539 --> 01:05:25.646 from the colorado River water world already, um the level the amount of 01:05:25.679 --> 01:05:30.606 data that you're expected to understand and assimilate is huge. So you so 01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:35.336 don't worry about understanding everything all at once. That's number one. 01:05:35.369 --> 01:05:40.816 But you know, take your time and and use the wiki site, use this 01:05:40.849 --> 01:05:45.126 administrative history website, learn as much as you can and number to 01:05:45.159 --> 01:05:48.327 start developing relationships with people that you are not normally 01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:53.407 aligned with. So if you're on the environmental side, you might know the 01:05:53.440 --> 01:05:56.307 other environmental person but reach out to the States and the hydropower 01:05:56.340 --> 01:06:00.697 people and develop personal relationships, asked them what they want and 01:06:00.730 --> 01:06:06.646 why, you know, I had the great joy of doing an assessment about a year ago 01:06:06.679 --> 01:06:11.347 of this program in which I called up every and with member plus half a 01:06:11.380 --> 01:06:14.827 dozen of other people and said, you know, how do you think the program is 01:06:14.860 --> 01:06:17.486 going and what do you want out of the program? And why do you want that? 01:06:17.519 --> 01:06:21.787 And it was a marvelous opportunity to learn about each individual 01:06:21.820 --> 01:06:27.137 stakeholder. And I think um a new stakeholder would do well by doing that 01:06:27.170 --> 01:06:31.967 , trying not to come in with preconceived ideas and simply developing 01:06:32.000 --> 01:06:36.517 those relationships where you can say well, so, so that sounds like a 01:06:36.550 --> 01:06:39.967 really important point for you. Can you help me understand what's behind 01:06:40.000 --> 01:06:46.247 that a little bit more because I don't really get it, that will go far. 01:06:46.280 --> 01:06:49.657 Who else do you think we should interview for this Administrative history 01:06:49.690 --> 01:06:56.327 prize? Who are you interviewing? Well, we have a list right now of about 01:06:56.360 --> 01:07:01.126 12 people. I can't have it in front. Well, if you want to show it to me, 01:07:01.159 --> 01:07:08.626 I'm really happy to happy to add to it. But and Castle, how about Jack 01:07:08.659 --> 01:07:12.026 Schmitt? I don't, 01:07:12.059 --> 01:07:18.206 Jack is the immediate past chief of the G. C. M. R. C. Grant came 01:07:18.239 --> 01:07:23.756 monitoring and research center and but he's also been a researcher in the 01:07:23.789 --> 01:07:29.546 canyon for many, many, many years. So he has a good perspective. 01:07:29.579 --> 01:07:34.456 And then, you know, of course you'll definitely want to talk to 01:07:34.489 --> 01:07:37.347 stakeholders 01:07:37.380 --> 01:07:40.367 and maybe some of the previous secretaries designees, I don't know if you 01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:48.247 want, If you want to show me the list, I'd be happy to add to it. 01:07:48.280 --> 01:07:52.517 Maybe somebody from the wash from the Washington world to besides an like 01:07:52.550 --> 01:08:00.550 Lori cara main Ian who was ants counsel and then deputy for awhile C a R A 01:08:01.860 --> 01:08:07.447 M A N I A N 01:08:07.480 --> 01:08:13.177 and maybe reaching back to maybe a prior administration before the Obama 01:08:13.210 --> 01:08:20.147 administration. 01:08:20.180 --> 01:08:24.086 All right, mary. You've been very patient and generous with us. We greatly 01:08:24.119 --> 01:08:27.369 appreciate your time. My pleasure.