Today is June 19, 2014. We are conducting an interview for the Arizona
State University Retires Association video project. We are located today
in the S. U. Community services building. I am leon Shell, former dean of
students at A. S. U. The technical support staff today include josh
macintosh operating the camera, roger carter audio David, schlafly, chair
of the video history project and linda Vance coy Director.
Please introduce yourself uh stating your name and your position at A S. U.
Hi leon, it's nice to see you again. I was in charge of international
student programs at Arizona State University. I was actually born in
Morocco, far away from here because my parents had a business there. When
I was three years old we moved to Switzerland which is my home country and
I have citizenship of both the United States and Switzerland. So the
language you speak in Switzerland, is that german or is that swiss? It's a
complicated okay when we Robin we speak swiss german which is a dialect of
high german but it's not mutually understandable. The Germans don't
understand us but we understand them and everything that's written is in
high german. Then I learned french and I learned spanish and english. I
thought that was a number five swiss. High german. No no no it's fine. I
learned spanish just for some reason even though italian is part of
Switzerland english high german swiss german french and spanish. Yeah but
you know people always ask me that you forget it, you have to speak it,
you have to keep it
from your schools there in Switzerland were good.
Well see I don't know how they are now but from what I hear through family
members who are teaching here, the situation here, as far as discipline is
concerned is not very good. You did not there to oppose or you know, to
challenge a teacher. We just kind of sat there and and listened. We were
never challenging. The teacher were impolite or laughing or scribbling or
sleeping or doing internet stuff. It was very strict, strict
academically well. But you know, that's maybe one of the disadvantages of
a strict education. Maybe you don't do that so much. Also academically
you're right
from a behavior part of it, you know, you couldn't be caught sleeping,
encouraged you to attack the teachers academically if you didn't agree
with something else.
But remember I only finished high school level in Switzerland but I think
it actually haunts me still today. It is difficult for me, especially in a
big group to challenge a person of authority because you know, we were
just not trained to do that. But I know you do that in England but you
know, in the unit at the university level, you probably do it. I just was
not there at the university.
But when I finished my high school which was kind of
a commercial program focusing on languages and commerce. So it's
Switzerland, a lot of people, even for example, the doctor of one of our
presidents, we have seven presidents together. You know I mean seven
people that form that council, they send their Children to other countries
to perfect their language. So that's what I did. You know after I
graduated from high school I went to paris to perfect my french. I was a
governors. You know I had to take care of the, of the families kids but I
had my own cooked that cooked for me and I never had to clean or anything.
But that was a program. I had to do something with those two kids all the
time, you know, talk to them taking them to school every day taking them
in the baby carriage all around Underneath the eye foot. Well, well I was
just out of high school by 2021.
You know it sounds like a strange thing to do. That's what you did in
Switzerland. You went and learned the language. My sister went to London
and she perfected her english also with the governors.
Okay. I met while I was in Europe still I met my husband who was then a
traveling student in europe. Eventually we got married, we landed up at U
. C. L. A. Where I started studies in linguistics and he began a master's
degree in anthropology. After about two years we moved to Australia where
he pursued a doctoral program and I continue my master's degree, my
bachelor's degree in linguistics. When we both were finished he had a job
offer from Arizona State University and that's how both of us ended up in
Tempe and Arizona State University.
So then I then I involved in a master's degree program in english and
linguistics and when I finished that the position opened at A. S. U.
Actually I was just going to take a full time position at phoenix college.
But then this came up and I just thought that would be so much more
interesting. International.
I interviewed you or was there a search on, Well you know things were very
different then remember that was 1970s. Well see I was first there I
forgot about talking about that but I was actually first there as the
assistant who who was
the the supervisor there after one year went somewhere else. So my boss
and some others, they offered me the position dr Swanson. Yes and I think
he checked with some of my faculty members and so on that. You know when I
did my masters degree and they just made it very simple because today you
would never have that. You know it would be a big committee and so on.
Yeah.
Uh Suzanne, could you describe while at A. S. U. What your job was like
when you came there and your job responsibilities? Well when I came to
Arizona State University we had a very small student population just 200
which as we will see later of course has changed dramatically. My
responsibility basically. We're The establishment and administration of
programs and procedures that met the needs of international students. That
was about 50%. The other 40% was roughly immigration administration. We
spent a lot of time as you know on immigration because international
students are totally regulated what they can do by immigration law.
Certainly we provided statistics, publications workshops and general
outreach to the campus community, the international community and also the
local community and newspapers about international programs because
international programs are always kind of in the background of
institutions. So we wanted to help them to find out what we are actually
doing and how many students we have at our school. And lastly and that's
actually very important for the students said we had a very extensive
network with the community, mainly community organization that had an
internet religious background because that was just the fact these were
the people that wanted to help. They would pick up students at the airport
that would invite them into their homes, they took them in when the
dormitories were closed and really let to get them know what the american
family life is. Suzanne, you were in the admissions department than to
begin with over in the more building. Who was the head of admissions at
that time. And who did you report to? Yes at that time it was dr roger
Swanson who was also a professor of english, He was in charge of admission
and then later on, I think I reported to Christine Wilkinson for a while.
And then when Betty Asher came, we transferred to student life and you
became my supervisor
That was in the 70s. So who was the president? Dr. Swatter was our
president then. Yes. So when you came what, there were around 200
international students, we were about 200 students. And that was when
Richard Richard Star Thomas was here and a lot of them were Saudi Arabians.
But then somehow that program petered out Now. We have 6,703
international students which is a 3000, almost 3500 increase. I mean that
is incredible. That's an incredible accomplishment for the institution to
have internationalized the campus so much.
When I left they were about 60% graduates for 40 undergraduates. And the
institution actually move towards having more graduate students and accept
from them are wanting assistance ships, graduate students are just easier
to work with for the institutions. You know, they're more mature and
academically they contribute contribute so much more um through research
and other assistance ships, 30 400 of the students are graduate students
here at issue. I think at last count. Well, I forgot to add actually after
September 11 our involvement plummeted. But now we are again, well, you
had quite a lot, quite a few communications with immigration. Could you
talk about that a little more because that was critical. Yes. Well you
know immigration generally by people who work in international education
is kind of scene as maybe not the enemy but certainly a person we have you
know we have to be aware of what they're doing and you know sometimes
there's disagreement. Well I never had that feeling. You know from the
very beginning we worked together and if I can say so actually Nasa, which
was our professional organization, we were very well organized on
immigration regulations and we sometimes actually knew more than
immigration new. But I tried to be very tactful with them. You know, we
got them on camp campus, we invited them for lunch. And when there was a
big immigration law change in 82 remember when the amnesty business and
all that came. Um we had a meeting in a huge room in the M. U. And three
immigration people came and then two of our campus and about 800 students
came and listened to how the new rules would affect them. And it just went
very well and you know we were very sure never to put them on the spot
where you know there might be a disagreement and in fact many times they
even called us you know to ensure that something was right. So the
relationship was good. But they had tremendous power. You know they could
if a student didn't do the right thing and they had another issue against
him. Let's see now in going forward a little bit, if there was possible
terrorist issue or something like that, Then they could use just the
slightest infraction, like if they took nine hours instead of 12 two begin
proceedings against them.
There were a lot of technical aspects regarding your position in terms of
getting things right, could you speak to that a little bit? I mean when
you get into visas and it's something that not everybody understands
exactly. You know, I had worked actually love with lawyers, immigration
lawyers, and I would say, you know, when I, you know, I have a lot of
lawyers actually in my family and they would always surprise, you know,
the stuff I would talk about and I certainly number one, I have to note
the regulations, we couldn't make any mistakes because, you know, the
repercussions would be too great if a student is sent home or cannot get a
job because we did something wrong. So we were very, very careful and we
had a lot of workshop and brought immigration lawyers who talked to the
students and
it was a growing experience for me because that was something I didn't
know anything about, um,
Knowing immigration made it also possible for me to advise faculty chairs
because they never, you know, they wanted something for their students,
can he work here, can work more than 40 hours on campus, we want him to
work in that company right away. And of course that was not possible. And
initially that was a very sore points for all of us because they just
wouldn't believe it. And then we started our campaign, we went and talked
, we got together and an internship possibility is a good example. You
know, internships were becoming very important then. And basically a
student just couldn't do that. An international student unless he was
registered in the class and got credit. Well, initially department just
didn't like that. You know, we kind of told them what they sometimes
thought, you know, that was us who made up those rules. Well, they learned
soon that wasn't true, but we worked it out that if they had, if they
established an internship that counted in their degree program, then we
could do it, we could put them on on give them a practical training work
from it and then it worked out and everybody was happy. So the technical
aspects was was that that one of the toughest things about your position?
Yes, because well, we have to be absolutely sure. We told the students
provide information and also the institution. You can actually compare it
to financial aid. They cannot make mistakes there when they deal with the
federal government was the same with us. We dealt with the federal
government. You have to know the rules,
the host families that you seem to have found a lot of host families, what
was what was that like trying to round up people to take him not taken in
, bring them into their homes and how did you go about that? Well they
would invite me to give presentations at their churches for example or at
social meetings. I would too there to the people of the of the community
to tell them what to expect. You know what they should do for
international students or what they could do and what they shouldn't like
for example, don't loan them any money. That's not the kind of
relationship you want to develop. Don't get involved in immigration issues
and things like that. But you know what they would appreciate the most and
that was of course celebration christmas birthday thanksgiving and we also
told them that proselytizing you know is not expected to be part of that
program. And I have never had any problem never. But interestingly love
actually a lot of students from Korea for example they were already
Baptists. It's not true you know that I mean there's a lot of christian
students around the world and they wanted to practice it here when they
came here. And it was interesting to um and also yeah another thing we
told them that's not for living there because of course they would have
liked to live as american family but unless the family made almost a
financial arrangement and was not the host family per se. We said that's
not part of our program. They just come on special occasions And many
international students say when they remember their stay in the United
States, the best part was the host family because that was real. You know
, that was the real America.
Are there any comments we haven't covered you'd like to make? Well, I love
my job. I don't know whether everybody, you know, lost their job like I
did. It was always interesting. It was never boring and I had a wonderful
, supportive staff. Many of them were internationals and you know, I was
able, I guess,
to respect what my aims were and and they both they all I wanted to do it
the same way and I think the international students in general returned
that goodwill and when I retired I sent everybody through the internet.
You know, I notice saying I'm not being going to be here anymore and I
really will miss you. And I got so many responses from the students. But
one of them was funny. One of them said, oh yeah, we really liked you. I'm
sorry you're not going to be here anymore. But can you find me a host
family? They never forgot that we were there to help them.
Alright. Uh what do you remember most about your career at issue? Well, I
would say it was never boring. That was, there was always something
happening and it wasn't usually in the United States, it was actually many
times an international event. You know, a crisis would happen which would
affect our students and we would have to step in and try to help them
because they were affected in many ways. The most important one probably
is that they couldn't get any funds from back home and pay for their
tuition. That caused caused tremendous problems
um what was special or outstanding about your position and
responsibilities?
Well what was specialist I got to meet, you know, the most, the most
talented students around the world, They must really wonderful to work
with them. Initially they were more undergraduate students, but as we got
more into international education, they were mainly graduate students did
, I say undergraduate before graduate students and I had to work very
closely with the graduate college and you know, it was a wonderful
opportunity to help them to reach their educational goals. And then later
on get into the american job markets because that's what many wanted and
that's why of course many companies also kept in close contact with the
university because they wanted to be there in line when students were,
these qualified students were looking for a job and that the departments
to, they were totally dependent on these international students,
Electrical engineering, Computer science, mechanical and engine
engineering to, they would sometimes say, you know, we could teach these
classes in hindi or in chinese because most of them including the teacher
or the graduate students who was teaching the class was from outside of
the United States And of course the goal is to get more american students
into the computer programs. But I think that is still a big challenge
today. As I recall part of your job was cooperating uh getting support
from the campus and from the community and the more support in that when
really things were needed, really helped out the students and helped out
the university. Could you come on, come in on that a little bit? Yes, yes.
You know, we were a small department initially and we were kind of, you
know, hidden in in the more building and we didn't have much influence on
campus because we just were not very important. Let's face it. Well, as we
got more students and there were more problems and issues that had to be
addressed? I realized I couldn't do it by myself. So I started to work
with people the graduate college, the chance of the individual departments
admissions was very important. The business office immigration, the
community to and other foreign student advisors that had maybe more
experience than I did. And we formed alliances. So when things happened,
we really were a team and we could address it together. And that was
tremendously helpful.
Cultural diversity I think enters into the discussion here because
In the 80s are numbers of ethnic minority students really accelerated uh
but related to the cultural diversity. I mean, we had all these diverse
international students. Could you talk about the attitude that cultural
diversity, How that entered into affecting our international students?
That's a very good question Around the 80s, these things happened. Much
bigger awareness of cultural diversity and also the number of students we
have on campus and at the same time the student in student life took a
different role. He became much more important student life focused on the
student, some people even called him or her the client. And so whatever we
did, we did had to be done to help the student breath to reach his or her
educational goal. Well, when that happened, that was really very positive
for our international students because you know, before, well, they were
just kind of going their own way. But they were then included in cultural
diversity population. So people became much more friendly. They become
much more helpful and the whole atmosphere towards everyone that's from
somewhere else became better and people saw that different groups have
really something to offer to our campus.
There were certain international events that were happening while you were
there that probably the general public didn't really realize or understand
how it would affect the students. But it created tremendous challenges for
the university. But but for those particular students. But let's retrace
here going back to some of these international events that didn't did
affect our enrollment And we, we could start out in in the 70s. And in in
the 70's we had a number of events happening with with Opec. There was,
well it affected different countries, could, could you speak to that, What
the impact and challenges that presented for not only our students but the
university institution. Yes after we had 200 students
that was in the early seventies. Suddenly we had the boom of the Opec
countries, the organization
of petroleum exporting countries and suddenly there were all these petrol
dollars flowing around and many, many students came from, many in Nigeria
Venezuela Saudi Arabia and Iran And these were all very very young
students and they were not very mature 18 year old students. You can
imagine American students at that age. They do if they go to college the
first time. So it was quite an issue. They were also really not all that
prepared to take these difficult engineering classes. So I think both the
university, the university and I mean the departments and our office, we
were really quite overwhelmed by that. And that was really the beginning
of when we started to think okay we have this population now we better get
together and figure out how we can help them best to finish their degrees.
And then of course came the Iranian crisis. And then after that we had
the crisis in Lebanon. I remember Betty Betty Asher who was the vice
president then she called me in, she had been friendly with some Lebanese
students and she wanted to know why we couldn't help students pay their
tuition because the money transfer was totally interrupted. And that was
at the time when if you didn't have the money, you did not register. So
that's just the way it was. And I tried to explain it to her and she
didn't really quite like that, but that's the way it was and the same
thing with why can't they just work well, immigration wouldn't let them
work. So that was the time when people were not really aware yet what the
constraints were for international students. And again, then the
institution really hoped to work on that and make it possible for them to
continue their studies with the fall of the Shah and we get to Khamenei
here. What was the impact on those students? What was their thinking when
all of this was going on? I mean, were they upset or? Yeah. You know, the
problem, we had kind of incidents with internet-based Iranian students
before it actually happened in 79 because they couldn't get their money
from back home. They were kind of recalcitrant because they didn't feel,
you know, they should have to follow immigration regulations where things
were so difficult for them. But then, as I was at the conference in
colorado actually, we found out that the Shah had had been disposed and
that initially actually was a wonderful event because the students were so
euphoric, they hated what was going on in Iran and we all actually felt
with them, something good is gonna come out of that. But then pretty soon
you know things turned in a different direction and when the guards in
Iran concord or stormed the american embassy in Tehran everything changed.
And the goodwill towards the Iranian students totally went away because
they were protesting they were burning cars, they didn't want to you know
, do what they were supposed to do. That is full time students and then
immigration really reacted tremendously. They wanted all international
Iranians down at the immigration office, they had to be fingerprinted,
they had to be photographed and all their
information had to be written down. Of course they resented that and it
was difficult for them to go down to the immigration office in the parking
when they didn't have cars. So I actually consulted some of my colleagues
, how they felt about it and how they were going to handle this and most
of them said we're not gonna we are not gonna accept this as a reality,
We're just going to ignore it. Which meant they let their students have to
handle this on their own. Well I didn't agree with that. I felt you know
everybody is sort of doing their job. Immigration has to through this
inspection of our students. The students have to comply. So my job is to
make it as easy for them as possible. So I get together got together with
campus officials and we set up two huge rooms in the emu and we call them
in you know every day a group from A. To K. L to Z. And then the last you
know Canada cleaning up, the students didn't like it but they did
appreciate that. You know we made it easier for them and even though they
didn't say it, you know, I know that this was a job well done and you know
it was over within three days,
you mentioned the demonstrations and that. But I think a lot of that
activity was taking place the protesting on West hall lawn and that was
before the library was built. And one of our student life's
responsibilities was to essentially keep the students away from the
Iranian students because they were so upset you know with what was going
on. And in fact we had some students go to some radio station and the tv
station telling them we were not helping them. And I remember we had some
reporters come to my office and we explained the situation and it really
felt good when you and dr ham you know they you know, they made me feel
that you know, we did the right job by you know, explaining the situation
that was a first for me the first ad on tv. You know, and I had all these
Iranians who were so angry. You know they were really quite a threat
because they got very angry when they were unhappy. But anybody kind of
knew that on campus so many also had mental health issues because they
were under tremendous stress. So we worked with the counseling center and
they tried to help them as much as possible. You know, we had the
Tiananmen Square event which was a big issue and a lot of people in the
United States, you know had really little awareness as to the impact that
that was going to have on our particular students, but also the issue in
terms of the challenges. Could you talk a little bit about that era? Yes,
this one, this was one of the most positive reactions that we had on the
campus. Everybody wanted to help everybody wanted to be involved because
we had this iconic picture of that students standing before we tank and
you know, we still remember that today and even immigration came along and
they basically limited all restrictions and they let even students that
were on student on visitor's visa stay here and they they basically got
everything because we really wanted to create a good relationship with
china because political considerations often were part of the rules and
directions under which immigration had to work. So that was a wonderful
time when chinese students were so well, we had a lot of people calling
and asked you know what they could do if they could invite them for dinner
and very nice In the early 90s then we had the Gulf War and with the
kuwaiti students talk about that a little bit when Saddam Hussein invaded
Iraq and not Iraq kuwait and suddenly everybody knew about it because the
americans they were on, they were helping the side against Iraq and so
they wanted to know how what's happening to the kuwaitis. We had a lot of
Kuwaiti students who were very generously supported by the government.
Well suddenly,
you know, they were on their own, they couldn't get any money and the
university had this stern policy because they had been burned so many
times before because people said they wanted to borrow money but then they
could never pay back until one or two years later so nobody could register
until they had the money on the spot on the spot. Now nobody wanted this
to happen to the international students, to the Kuwaiti students because
everybody knew it wasn't their fault and their sponsor was very generous
and they knew the money was becoming eventually. So we all work together,
jerry Snyder Hanks, sponsor puma remember him and I think you were on the
committee to the graduate college admissions. We all worked together and
we made an exception that they could just be on campus and go to class
until this problem was solved. Immigration tooth went on the back of
bandwagon and they could work. I mean they basically were no limitations
on the model. So that was a very good feeling that we had achieved that
together. Even Christine, she organized a group with a S. U. Staff and she
used mary mary oh mary Wagner, she's called now and she had been on a
different project. She had been in the Middle East in Qatar and kuwait and
she used her to explain to her personnel what the american students who
have been or we're going to kuwait might be going through. So again
everybody learned more about kuwait and it's it was a widening of the
horizon of the area's population uh with the defeat of apartheid in South
Africa that did have an impact also I think on our enrollment and other
challenges. Well what I remember best about that is actually a wonderful
moment and it could be considered, I don't know the most, not the happiest
but the most impressive moment to me. We had a project for our
international students which was called the jefferson democracy project.
They learned about democracy in the United States and we took them to
several events and at the end we had a celebration And everyone came. We
had almost 30 students and Laddie cool came you came, Christine came and
then we happen to have a student from two students from South America, one
was a black student sponsored student by the Institute of International
Education and the other one was a white student and it just so happened
that right then apartheid apartheid was abolished, which of course added
additional importance to our project. So our students selected those two
students from South Africa to give a little speech at the end and they
both did. And everybody was very emotional and they hugged each other at
the end and you know, tears were flowing down their cheeks. And that's
probably the first time they actually even touched each other. There was
two students from South America from South Africa and I think there were
much, much emotion in that room and I'll never forget that how, you know
how our students, our population could be involved in that. What was going
on in another country. Yeah. And in the 90s then we had the, a lot of
economic issues in Asia and the crisis there. How did that affect our
enrollment? Well, that was of course many, many countries in ASia were
affected. And again, from one day to the next, they couldn't enroll
because they didn't have the money. Again, Immigration responded very
generously could they could do basically, we have, they didn't even have
to go to school, I think. Um, and at the same time, of course we were also
affected in the United States. A lot of us saw our portfolio slide down
together with, you know, what happened. And, and, and in Southeast Asia
and I think for the first time I realized myself and many other people for
to what global into into interconnectedness means. We are all together in
the same boat. now when something happens, it doesn't matter how far away
it is, We come to 9 11 that definitely had an impact. Talk about that. Yes
, of course I had the luck, I guess you could call it to retire two months
before september 11th, so we didn't know what was coming, but I remember
when when I gave my goodbye remark, it's my retirement remarks, I did say
that was in 2001. Well, things are going pretty well now, everything is
calm now, let's see what comes next. Well, September 11 of course, what
came next and it was just a tremendous impact on the international student
program. Number one students couldn't get the visas anymore for a long
time. So the involvement numbers went down tremendously secondly, there
was really not the friendship and and the goodwill towards international
students, particularly those from the Middle East. But she would also
surprise me actually how so many students Arabian students, especially the
Saudis, they were on the side of the Hitchhikers. Maybe they didn't want
you know all that suffering with the with the tower and all the people
that were killed. But
they start
that wasn't such a horrible thing from their point of view, from the
Islamic point of view. So I know they worked very, very hard to you know,
to win their confidence again and they have done that now because the
students, the international student program is alive and well at Arizona
State University is doing very, very well. But it was a total shock for
everyone and if I can tell a little anecdote, which seems unbelievable,
but it's actually true.
I had a student that wanted to see me and he specifically asked for me but
my staff told me he was not and he was not in our program, he had not been
admitted yet, but he waited and waited. He didn't have an appointment. So
finally he came in and I remember thinking he wanted to get into the
computer science.
He was in a flight school in the neighbor in the area here. But you know I
felt very sorry for him because to me he seemed like a lost sheep because
he didn't know what to do. He said, he said he was under tremendous
pressure. Then the second time he came and again he wanted to see me and
again we had the same discussions. But again I couldn't help him because
you know admission was not my area of competence. We didn't admit students.
Well as it turned out, I guess you guessed it now. He was one of the
terrorists. But you know, he didn't seem like an aggressive
person you would be afraid of. He was a lost jeep, which I thought that
was interesting.
I've never heard that before. Yeah, it really affected my staff. Yeah,
because they thought what we had this guy sitting out there were you
contacted by the government? Did you contact the government actually? Of
course, I never knew it when I talked to him. You know, it came later. I
actually called the FBI or forgotten or whether it was, I think it was the
FBI because they wanted as much information that they could get. They were
not one bit interested. They were well I gave him the name and you know,
the institution but they were not interested. You know, he couldn't have
been used for prevention and I guess he was dead. So I was actually
surprised by that. But remember there was a an immigration agent that
worked at the phoenix office and he sent a memo to Washington saying that
all these students here that are taking flight lessons, they don't learn
how to land. I don't know if he said that or not, they ignored it. They
never did anything with it. It's very strange. Yeah. Remember when the
Berlin wall fell and suddenly we were going to have students from Eastern
europe and so there was a particular student, the physics department was
always eager to get this highly eager to get these highly qualified
students. So they got one from Russia and that student, you know, he was
so happy that he was able to come and then we found out while he was here
, but he's only in new york, he only had enough money to get to new york.
So you know, everybody was calling around, we didn't know what to do and I
don't remember exactly how it happened. But Christine Wilkinson ended up
putting that trip on her credit card which showed her commitment to
international education.
So that was a good memory. Yes
of all your accomplishments at ASU which have given you the most
satisfaction.
Well there's another story I have to tell. Well we had a scholarship
program, most of it was for students other than Latin America but it had
pretty high, we had pretty high standards for that because those students
were all very qualified. So you had to have almost 3.8 to God get it. We
had a student who came to me, he had been in the english program to learn
english. So he was very new and he asked me if we could help him. He was a
Palestinian, a christian Palestinian and he said it was so difficult for
his parents. And I said well unfortunately um you know the requirements
for the scholarships are too high and then it somehow came out that he was
actually born in chile but we also had south american scholarships but
really you know somebody in the legislature I think had decided we should
encourage latin american students but we had number one, not many students
from there and number two they were not really all that qualified But then
that gave me idea, I mean he was qualified enough. He probably had 3.2 or
something. So I said well you were born in chile really well what's your
nationality? He said, well I also have national nationality from chile and
I said, well can you prove that? And he said yeah next day he came in with
his passport and sure enough it said chile and his name. So I conferred
with some other colleagues and we gave him the scholarship and he did very
very well ideas you and and I really feel that was a wonderful thing that
we could do to help him now. But that's a little post quick to that. I
happened to read this magazine. Nobody told me about it. I haven't to read
this magazine. And there he was in there he was interviewed With his
family of three or 4 Children. And he talks about his experience at A. S.
U. And he really, really liked it. And the thing that impressed me the
most that he liked the whole institution. He liked our office. But what he
said at the end is in additional to educational matters. Susanne made sure
that we adapted to the new society in this capacity. She was a living
example of hospitality, love and care and shaped the way and this is
important. She shaped the way I look at the world today, which really, you
know showed us we could do wonderful things with our program with any
students. But in this particular case with international students because
we know not all students that go back are gonna love the United States. We
love that we know that but at the same time a student who has had such a
good experience, he will remember us and he will be a friend of the United
States and we certainly can use that. Which edition was that of the issue
alumni magazine.
It was because I think volume 15 number four may 2012. That's not that
it's so long ago. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well in the late 70s we had kind of the opening of China and research
researchers coming and could you talk about that era also that was a very
exciting moment. At the very end of 79 we had the first Chinese coming.
Now they were not students. Initially it was every what we would call a
postdoc and of course he went into physics into electron microscopy. He
wore his chinese outfit you know with the collar and big glasses and we
were kind of worried how they're going to get along with the Taiwanese.
But the Taiwanese they were so nice and gracious to them. They invited
them to all their events and really helped them find apartments. So that
was a very good beginning. It was also the beginning of A S. U. And the
individual departments realizing what an asset these incredibly qualified
students could bring and china of course was one country and then there
were other countries later on. I mean we had the computer revolution that
were from India that were really really very well qualified and would help
the departments really have the very good students they could maybe
otherwise not get because they would go to Harvard or stanford or whatever.
We had a Chinese student I think in the 80s who was a graduate student
came from china and he had gone through the cultural revolution. Yeah. You
have any stories about chinese students? Cultural well you know they
didn't talk so much about it because they were older but they would talk
about how their family, it was mainly their families that suffered and how
well educated people were sent out into the fields and they had to dig
ditches and they had to do incredible things. They were not and they had
to hide for example their instruments when they were musicians because
classical music that was not accepted in a new cultural ideal of Mount
Yeah they you know sometimes I didn't know how much they felt free to talk
about that because at the beginning, you know they still felt the
government is very powerful and they get, can get them for criticizing.
Who would you find would be coming from china. People must have had some
money or was the government sponsored? Well there was some government
sponsoring but from china. You know I was never sure it's assistant ships.
Assistant ships actually we had a lot of them besides engineering in
music because they were very well trained in music. They wanted a lot of
chinese students and I yeah in um you were an architecture were you? Yeah
we had some that wanted to be an architecture but I think it was probably
difficult for them to get their funds. And then yeah then they would yeah
they were quite proficient at that. Then they would meet an american
family or american couple that was traveling in china and they would be so
interesting and so pleasant that they became friends and then they said
can you help us come to United States? And the family always wanted to
help. Well the only way you could help an international students to come
here was to sign a financial guarantee which at that time was like $12,000.
Well you know the most well meaning american family just couldn't just do
that. And then they said well if which the students would say well it
doesn't mean anything just signing well it did happen. Um and then they
would have tremendous problems, you know because they you know that the
people thought that well that wasn't really meant but it was meant. So we
had a lot of conversations with people who wanted to bring students here
that you know don't sign it if you don't want to give the students $12,000
a month. But you know to say frankly many international students worked
illegally. You know they worked off campus, you know like in chinese
restaurants and things like that they didn't hurt anybody. But technically
that was against the law
there was really a demand for high tech students.
What happened here at A. S. U. With our students? Well we just got more
and more particularly indian students, they all came from very highly
accredited schools in India. So our engineering department, they were
mainly an engineering, our engineering department. They were well for well
informed about those students. So the moment they admitted they came from
that school at the moment they applied and they came from that school,
they were admitted. Now indian school indian students they kind of had an
interesting arrangement literally they may not have had the money. So a
relative who was already in the United States would pay for it. And then
the students hope to get an assistantship which they usually did. And then
when they finished their studies they got the job through the practical
training program which allowed them to work and they paid back that
relative and then they would do the same to the next relative. This meant
that almost all indian students had
assistantship, you know they even had them not not in particularly
technical department, you know because they were so good at computers,
they worked well and they were easy to get along with. So I think
the only disadvantage possible it might have been for the institutions was
that some american students, freshmen, usually when they had these
students at assistance, they said they couldn't understand them. Now
indian students speak english very well because you know that's their
second language but they definitely pronounce it differently than we do
and you know, some people took the position well, you can just learn it.
Like if you're in europe you just have to learn that you know, people
have different accents that we did then send up a program, set up a
program where they had to take a certain test, a spoken test to prove that
their english was understandable. And that was another big change. Other
schools did that too. American girl would come to me, I mean I dealt a lot
with american girls who would wanted advice from me, you know, and I knew
what was going to happen if an indian student most of the time as an
american girlfriend when when he goes home that's over. And of course the
Saudi arabians too. I mean they just, the family would let them marry an
american girl and that was very hard to share with with the american
student. And sometimes foreign students came to me that really liked an
american or thought he liked her, but he was a little conflicted because
he said, you know, I really like her a lot, but we all knew that she was
going to give him permanent residents, you know, and I don't want her to
think it's that and that would, you know, I would explain that. Well, you
know, people like each other for different reasons and if you really like
her, what does it matter if you also get a permanent residence? You're not
marrying her for that?
And you know, it's not any worse than marrying someone for their looks or
for their money. Right?
This brings up the issue of undocumented students. Students.
What can you tell us about that? Well, it was kind of an interesting
experience for me because we dealt with F1 students and we actually theory
in theory, we're responsible with them. And if immigration checked with us
and if they had the proper papers, we had to tell them if a student was
what we call out of status, you know, that was full time or was working
illegally or something because we tried to get never having to do that.
They had to have a subpoena to get the information because of the buckley
amendment. But when we found when students who were not ours, but we're
either illegal or didn't have the right Visa, they were working in human
through human resources and we told them about it and you know, kind of
let them know because an institution is not supposed to have people that
are not allowed to work, they didn't really like it. You know, they didn't
really want to know about it. That was kind of interesting to me, very
good. It's like for example when international students all had to have
health insurance,
a lot of them would because so they would be covered. That was a
requirement, but they were not eligible for access the access program
because they were not citizens and they would go down there and get it
anyway and you know, we told them, you know, you're not allowed to do that
, but you know, nobody did anything about it. And then as things became
stricter and you know, I felt we had to protect the institution because
they're not supposed to do that and I talked to some of the people down
there, they also kind of didn't want to know about it, you know, and so I
learned, you know, I just learned to work with the system, you mind your
own business, you do what you can to do things right, you inform people,
but that's about it, you know, which was kind of a dilemma for me.
I had one student from Libya, very nice students, very friendly students
and you know, we would always entertain our office, a real personality
and then he came to me once and said, can you help me? Professor has
accused me of cheating
and I think it was a math professor and
you know, I was kind of because he was so nice and all that, I just
totally trusted him and I called the professor and said, you know the
students just wondered if if you could reconsider this whole thing again,
I didn't say he wouldn't have cheated or anything like that, but and I
didn't usually do that, but I felt well in this case it's probably
justified. Well later on, some students told me well he totally cheated,
you know, but he just didn't feel any responsibly responsibility towards
me, even though I I thought we were friends. You know, he felt well if I
can help him help him, that's good enough for me. And that didn't keep him
from later on to ask me to write him a recommendation. You know, it's just
you know, we are not part of their world, their their cultural world and I
think that's going to be like that for a long time.
Are there any students,
very prominent citizens in the world people we wouldn't know. Well, I
don't know if if you would know, but about a year ago, Christine called me
and she said whether I could come to definition because one of the
I don't know if he was the Sultan or the Minister or something, but he was
formerly a student at A. S. U. And he had remembered me and he measured me
so she wanted me to come down, you know, there was an event that honored
big big contributors like the I don't know if you know the Melikyan for
example who I know very well by by coincidence and some other people that
got an award of course, you know, he was from Dubai, I think he was from
Dubai, he was not from Saudi Arabia or kuwait and so I was supposed to
kind of make him feel comfortable and he turned out at the end, we set at
the same table as the president and him and and some other people, so that
was, I don't really know or we had the prince once. He he was in political
science, he was a grandson of one of the thousands from United Emirates
and he was a good student, He did very well, but I don't know what
happened to him now, you know, and of course the the emir of the United
Emirates has like 50 or 100 grandsons, you know, they have many wives, so
they have many grandsons, but that was a nice experience. And he came, you
know, he came with a big white limousine and bodyguards and everything,
you know, he's totally protected.
I have covered this, but what are some of your best memories while you
were at issue
well and something Well that's kind of a memory that not necessarily
academic, but you know, we worked a lot of responses and the Arabian
american oil company was a huge sponsor, you know, which they sponsored
all these students from Saudi Arabia and we worked very well with them,
but we, you know, we bent over backwards to help them because they were
you know they really took care of their students, they met with advisers
and they always wanted to meet with the higher ups. You know I mean
talking at the President's level and so they you know we could not always
do that so they understood that so they would always organize those
wonderful dinners. They would take us to the phoenician. You know
Christine came out and a few comes sometimes the president came in all the
department chairs and that helped create that real positive relationship
and also an appreciation of the student and Aramco because they really
wanted they were stricter in their requirement. And so that was always fun.
You know that was a long time ago. Do you remember going over well Saudi
Arabia hosted this one event that you went to and I went to um and we
brought back a lot of literature but as I recall
thomas who was a former registrar, he was involved with a lot of the Saudi
Arabian students but we went out to this event wasn't Ellen. Yes it was in
L. A. And I mean it was a real sales job. Oh yeah they just want to be
accepted and liked you know they want well basically because they want us
to treat the students well and of course we did that but beyond that I
think you know they know there's a lot of prejudice so maybe fear or
not being sure how they should relate to them. So they want to win our
positive attitude I guess. And also at conferences they would the kuwaitis
to, they would host those huge parties, you know, where everyone was
invited with food and everything. Yeah,
as a retiree now, how do you spend your time? Well, I do a lot of things.
The first thing I did right away I went to actually an S. U. Sponsored
trip to Romania. That was a nice experience. And then for the first two
years I helped these are host family organization to sponsor
welcome receptions at my house. So you know, that was nice of seeing them
when they came and but then after a while that petered out when I did
other things that we got to bird watching, my Children had given me a
subscription to the phoenix symphony and opera. So I did a lot of that and
then MCC they have an organization where we are to the auspices of MCC, I
should say it's called New Frontiers learning and requirement in
retirement where we teach the classes, you know, we teach the classes but
we can use the facilities I got quite involved with with that, I
volunteered and I made a presentation on Mozart. Well, you know, I never
did study Mozart, but I was very interested and after I went to CUBA,
which my with my grandson, which is legal by the way that you can go to
CUBA. If you go with an organization, I gave a presentation on CUBA and
what's going on there. So it's very enriching to be part of that. I know
issue has that too. But I think it's just not as well known to the people
who are not associated with A. S. U. Uh huh. Thank you very much Suzanne.
We worked together for some years and I this has been educational for me
as well even though we worked closely together and I enjoyed hearing some
of your comments and stories. Well, thank you so much. It was actually
very good for me to working with you and also later without carter
Dean of student life because you you let me do what had it had to be done.
You know, you you knew you didn't know about immigration. That's true. So
you know, you didn't interfere but you supported us when we needed it. And
that's really the best conditions you could work under. Thank you. Thank
you for letting us Suzanne comment on this record because she was there
during some of the formative years. And To imagine 200 students when you
came and where we are now, I mean that really illustrates the importance
of international students the Arizona State University and all these high
tech jobs. So but thankyou