WEBVTT

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Today is Friday December 10 2010. We're doing an interview for the Arizona

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State University retiree association
video history project

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and our interview, he is Larry E.
Penley were located in Siegman Institute

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in the center point building in
downtown Tempe. My name is lee muk feeders

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and I served as associate dean under
Larry in the W. P. Carey School of

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Business. Our technical support staff
here today is Roger carter who's

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operating the camera, David Schatzi
who is filling in with audio and also

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in attendance is linda Vance Coy,
chairman of the CSU Retirement

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Association video history project. My
name is Larry Penley. I was dean of

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the business school at the W. P. Carey
School of Business for 13 years,

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including the one year as interim
dean.

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Why don't you give us a little
background on yourself uh and on your

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career before you came, I'd be happy
to do that lee but but I I should

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thank you at the beginning for doing
the interview. You and I worked so

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closely together in the school of
business for so long that it's really

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quite special to have you do this
interview rather than someone else. So

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so thanks for doing that. I did come
here in 1985 as the chair of the

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Management Department and Professor of
Management and prior to that I was

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associate dean and a member of the
faculty at the university of texas at

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san Antonio. And before that I grew up
in East Tennessee. Born in Virginia

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went to school at Wake Forest
University where I perhaps mistakenly

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studied psychology rather than
economic share field but then went on to

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rectify that only slightly by getting
a PhD in management at the

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University of Georgia. We moved here
in 1985 during a recession and as I

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was thinking about this interview with
a recession going on at the moment

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, we recorded this interview, I
thought, you know, recessions seem to be

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associated with transitions in my life
transitions from texas to Arizona,

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transitions back here from colorado, a
transition away from here when I

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retired from a issue and and and left
the university to become president

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of colorado State University. So
that's a bit about my background.

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Let me sort of set the stage here. You
became Dean with the departure of

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john kraft and the School of Business
really had not had a large number of

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Dean's. There was of course Glen
Overman Bill Siegman than john craft. I

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wonder if just looking back you could
give us your capsule impression of

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the contribution each of those
processes made for you. Of course, I mean,

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I had the privilege of getting to know
well both Bill Seidman and Glenn

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Overman before they died. And of
course john is still alive and Dean at

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the University of florida's School of
business today. Glenn was a very,

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very special person. He really was the
person who built the College of

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Business at Arizona State University.
Glenn built the school. He really

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had a sense of its responsibility to
Arizona to Arizona State University.

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And and we, we have a great deal of
debt, I think that we owe to to Glenn.

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Bill came along after that very
different dean as you know, from Glen

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Oberman, a person who came out of
business. Uh and it wasn't part Bill

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Seidman and Bill Rife is associate
dean. That represented part of the

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attraction for me in coming to Arizona
State University. Uh Bill Seidman

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and Bill Right both really had strong
beliefs about improving the quality

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of the school. And particularly Bill
Seidman wanted to engage the College

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of Business as we called it at that
time with the business community,

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built the research centers. So it
really was a different approach from

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glens, but nonetheless, it was still a
very large school of business at

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that stage, john came along shortly
after I arrived. Bill Seidman hired me

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in 1985 and I think he lasted not
quite a year before I before he left to

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go off and head the F. D. I. C. In
Washington and the Resolution Trust

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corporation after that. Uh And and
that was a huge disappointment to me

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because I, I really did see uh Bill
Seidman, did you come in directly as

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chair? Yes, I came in directly as
chair of the management department. And

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it and it was Bill Siegman with with a
bit of language I won't use in this

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tape, who asked me why in the world, I
would want to be chair of the

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management department?

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I think Bill thought that this was one
of his more troubling departments

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that he had, he probably thought all
of them were troubling by the way.

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But that was Bill Sigmund's view of it
and but I really learned to love

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him and appreciate him. And even as
Dean appreciated Bill Sigmund's

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surprise visits to my office, they
were always wonderful. And the visits I

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had with Bill in Washington when he
was a commentator on television, that

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was still a very special part of that
relationship. John came along and

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john had important contributions,
although a fairly short tenure at issue

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, jOHn really saw a need to build the
research capacity of the institution

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And he also started in his last year
or two here, the full time NBA

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program which was an enormous
contribution and caused a fair amount of

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controversy as john was, was leaving
the university,

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going back to your period as interim
dean and then it was the first, a

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couple of years of your time as dean.
Of course there was a national

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recession going on. We had seemed
every year. We had what were called

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revert mints, Do you recall that where
the budget suddenly was slashed in

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the middle of the year

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describe some of the issues the
problems just starting out as being in an

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environment where the business school,
I think it was getting a bit of

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scrutiny under a a CSB as well. And of
course there were budget issues,

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there was the challenge to move the
school forward. How did you prioritize

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,

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how did, how did you know what to work
on first? Well, the first issue

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obviously was the, what I discovered
was a fairly significant deficit on

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becoming the interim dean in 1990.
Elmer Goody, who was then the provost

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had had the confidence in me to ask me
to be the dean. And when I sat down

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with our our budget officer mike at
that point and went through the budget

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and saw the substantial and I do mean
substantial amount of debt that we

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had.

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It was a bit daunting. I recall going
to Elmer Gooding's office and

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talking to Elmer about how in the
world we were going to cut our way to

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success.

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And Elmer was a really good provost.
One of the things Elmer did was allow

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the School of Business to really not
balance its books, it's books the

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first year. That didn't mean he didn't
expect me to cut a lot. He did

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expect me to cut a lot. But that had
been a problem for some time. As as

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your question suggests, a CSP have
been quite concerned with the size of

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the school relative to its small
budget. Well under $20 million weren't

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with the largest business school in
the country or close to It used to be

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the joke about the largest business
school of the Free world. But of

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course, that doesn't make any sense
today. Since there isn't quite the

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distinction. But yeah, we were, we
were probably the largest business

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school uh, in the United States of
that period. And the budget didn't

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match that at all. During the period
that jOHn Kraft was Dean, we actually

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had an infusion of funds. The business
community uh, went to the governor

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at that stage and the governor was
willing to infuse funds directly into

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the business school. And I think that
kind of put off a CSB major concern

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at that stage, but that by no means
resolved the problem. So in a way,

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you're, you know, you're, we're back
to a recessionary period. I came

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during a recession. I became interim
dean during a recession. And by gosh

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, the recession was quite real for the
university and the School of

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business.

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Let me ask you about the NBA program,
You mentioned that john Kraft had

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really set the business school off on
a path to have a full time Day NBA

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program. And as we entered the 19
nineties, it became apparent to everyone

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that the way business schools are
really evaluated, recognized and even

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ranked is based on the quality of the
NBA program. And

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just interjecting a bit of my own
experience and involvement with this,

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you asked me to investigate what was
the ranking, the A. S. U. N. B. A.

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Program and we were able to make
contact with us News and World Report,

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which at that time was the the ranking
media outlet for for NBA program

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information and rankings and so forth.
Anyway. The rankings came back, we

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were 197 and I recall and there
couldn't be any more than 200 M. B. A.

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Programs in the country, full time
programs. So that was not that was not

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encouraging.

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What do you recall about then? How you
felt about that challenge to to

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move everybody wants to be in the top
50, the top 30 and even the top 25.

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If you can make it. We were of course
in the bottom five or 10. What were

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your thoughts about whether that was
even feasible? Did you think that we

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could go ahead and put a focus on MBA
education or did you think with our

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undergraduate program being so large
that it was just gonna be a futile

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attempt? Well, perhaps early on
naively I thought we could, you know, I

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mean, I came to Arizona state because
I believed in Arizona State

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University, I became the dean because
I believed in the faculty and the

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students and I believe we could do
that. I do recall vividly and perhaps I

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imagine it, but I think I even recall
where you were seated and I was

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seated when you came into my office
and you did this in the way you mean

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as you know, you're a great
storyteller and people love the jokes and

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stories that you're able to tell. And
I recall you're not warning me ahead

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of time, but coming into my office,
sitting down, laying the papers on the

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table and basically showing me where
we were ranked at that point. Uh It

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was it was a startling moment. It was
not a moment that it was very

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encouraging.

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I recall been talking to a few of the
chairs, craig, kirkwood and some

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others among them. And people had no
belief at that stage that we could

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actually achieve what we wanted to
achieve with the ranking and

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recognition of the College of Business
at Arizona State. If anything that

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day just made it seem as if the whole
that we were in was so deep that it

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was almost impossible, but for
whatever reason. And you and I and a number

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of others had a sense of hope that we
could do something with this, a

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belief that the NBA program was a key
to moving this College of Business

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forward and really improving its
quality and gaining the recognition that

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we thought it merited. And that's very
interesting because I can recall

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distracters through a lot of the early
years of really having known issues

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College of Business and known it as a
large undergraduate program who

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found it really surprising that you
and I and others were focused on the M.

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B. A. To the degree we were without
focusing on the undergraduate program.

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I can't even recall my wife Yolanda
saying to me, you're not giving any

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attention to the undergraduate program
trying to explain to people that

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the NBA program was just as you have
stated a moment ago, a key to the

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quality of the school. It was a key to
the recognition of the school. That

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was really a very difficult thing to
deal with. I can recall wishing and I

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suppose many of us have wished our
predecessor did something different. I

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can call wishing. Why didn't glen
build a larger NBA program instead of

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just a large undergraduate program?
But he did what was right in his day

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and we were trying to do what was
right in our day and use the

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transformation of the NBA program as a
foundation for the whole business

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school including the undergraduate
program. It was just that the NBA

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program had to be addressed first. Uh
If we were going to achieve what we

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wanted to achieve with school
business. This, this really was a profound

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change. And what what is your
recollection

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as to how the central administration
reacted to this, certainly they were

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mindful of the fact that we had a
large number of undergraduate students.

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We had a reputation I think nationally
as a, as a solid undergraduate.

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Absolutely. Uh But to put a renewed
emphasis on the N. B. A. Was that an

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easy sell. Mhm. Across the street, as
we say, Well, having been a

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president, I've never been a provost,
thankfully, perhaps. But, but having

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been a president, you tend to look at
things a little differently than

00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:50.167
that a dean does particularly business
dean. And and it was not something

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I think that over in the
administration building was met with great

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enthusiasm when we did that. And
again, you were key to this. You

00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:06.037
developed the statement, the narrative
associated with really a smaller

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sized but a higher quality
undergraduate program and a very substantially

00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:17.726
larger NBA program. And we presented
that to Milk Glick who was in the

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provost to walter Harris, who was the
vice provost at that stage. And uh

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naturally I don't think there's any
surprise that Milk click did not say

00:15:29.340 --> 00:15:35.776
this is wonderful, variably go at it.
Do this. He after all, had a very

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large university he and Lady Cora did
uh, that they needed to, to manage.

00:15:40.940 --> 00:15:46.697
We had growing numbers of
undergraduate students. Business schools are

00:15:46.730 --> 00:15:52.736
very popular majors. They were then
they still are uh laddie and Milt

00:15:52.769 --> 00:15:57.447
understood that they needed lots of
spaces for undergraduate students. So

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, no, I I can't say that there was a
lot of enthusiasm for the direction.

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And there were some challenges, as I
recall that certainly an M. B. A.

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Program depends on the quality of the
students, the quality of the

00:16:12.549 --> 00:16:19.996
faculty. How did you go about changing
the the focus of our recruiting for

00:16:20.029 --> 00:16:26.746
MBA students which had always been
drawing on local applicants. We needed

00:16:26.779 --> 00:16:31.276
national applicants. We needed high
test scores. We needed people that had

00:16:31.309 --> 00:16:37.146
work experience and we've not been on
the national scene with marketing.

00:16:37.179 --> 00:16:41.246
We have not really had a faculty that
we're focused on N. B. A. What were

00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:48.106
some of the things that you and the
chairs worked on two to improve that?

00:16:48.139 --> 00:16:53.407
Stupid? Well, clearly you're correct.
There was a transformation in the

00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:59.057
student body that was required, the
first class of full time NBA students

00:16:59.090 --> 00:17:04.097
were, as I had mentioned briefly
earlier, not very happy with their

00:17:04.130 --> 00:17:09.927
experience in the NBA program when
john was still the dean, uh, they felt

00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:14.127
that we were not delivering on the
experience that they had expected,

00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:19.496
perhaps that we had promised. Um and
there was a need to do a lot of

00:17:19.529 --> 00:17:25.286
different things. One of the things we
had to do was obviously create an

00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:30.687
admissions office that was focused not
just on Arizona, but nationally.

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NBA students typically don't go to the
same school as their undergraduate

00:17:35.119 --> 00:17:40.097
degree. NBA students are a good source
of growth for the business

00:17:40.130 --> 00:17:44.387
community. So bringing in high quality
NBA students from around the

00:17:44.420 --> 00:17:49.276
country was a way to deliver something
to the Arizona business community.

00:17:49.309 --> 00:17:53.097
So this was an important issue, but it
required an admissions office, it

00:17:53.130 --> 00:17:57.736
required recruiters, it required
people going out to the various events

00:17:57.769 --> 00:18:01.137
that occurred around the country. It
required changing the way we dealt

00:18:01.170 --> 00:18:06.006
with the g mapped and that was only
the beginning because on top of that

00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:10.117
we didn't have the services and the
experience that you expect from the

00:18:10.150 --> 00:18:13.986
full time NBA program. I think it was
you who really talked about that

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that N. B. A. Experience that we
really needed and that required

00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:25.887
investment in those services that
really made this an M. B. A. Program

00:18:25.920 --> 00:18:30.707
that was comparable to other good NBA
programs it demanded as well, a

00:18:30.740 --> 00:18:35.597
career management program. I mean as
you know, a great deal of the

00:18:35.630 --> 00:18:38.467
evaluation of an M. B. A. Program has
to do with where you place students

00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:42.167
, what salary you place them at the
whole, how quickly you place those

00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:46.516
students. Uh And we didn't have any of
that at the time. It was an

00:18:46.549 --> 00:18:51.306
enormous transformation plus the
facilities

00:18:51.339 --> 00:18:57.447
plus we needed to have a curriculum
that would cause students who have

00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:05.286
many options to decide to come to A S.
U. Do you recall how, how we handle

00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:11.177
that? Of course. I mean, one of the
difficulties was how do you position

00:19:11.210 --> 00:19:17.177
this business school, an NBA program
in Arizona for a national audience

00:19:17.210 --> 00:19:20.556
and clearly to stand up and say well
we're going to have a general envy

00:19:20.589 --> 00:19:25.526
equivalent to stanford equivalent to
warden. This was just not believable.

00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:29.986
How would we possibly compete directly
with them having come from the

00:19:30.019 --> 00:19:36.107
ranking that you described earlier. Uh
It required a different approach,

00:19:36.140 --> 00:19:40.326
luckily and and this was one of the
great qualities of Arizona State

00:19:40.359 --> 00:19:46.326
University. It had real areas of
embedded excellence. And as we looked

00:19:46.359 --> 00:19:51.117
internally at where we were really
good, we saw an opportunity, an

00:19:51.150 --> 00:19:55.637
opportunity to take something that we
now know is supply chain management.

00:19:55.670 --> 00:19:59.917
It wasn't called that in those days
and make that a specialty to look

00:19:59.950 --> 00:20:03.627
over here in our marketing department
where we had the services marketing

00:20:03.660 --> 00:20:08.657
center then called the first
interstate center I believe And basically

00:20:08.690 --> 00:20:12.877
take services marketing and then
eventually information systems as we

00:20:12.910 --> 00:20:17.137
created a department in that area and
turn those into specializations in

00:20:17.170 --> 00:20:22.336
the second year. So that yes you
received a very good full time MBA

00:20:22.369 --> 00:20:28.387
experience in year one but you had
additional knowledge and skills that

00:20:28.420 --> 00:20:32.907
other NBA s did not have in a given
area such as supply chain management

00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:38.967
or services marketing, which made you
more employable than a student

00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:45.016
perhaps from a a more highly ranked
school. So it was a deliberate

00:20:45.049 --> 00:20:49.786
strategy that involved a lot of
transformation of the school business,

00:20:49.819 --> 00:20:55.016
including creating the department of
supply chain management, which we did

00:20:55.049 --> 00:20:59.826
not have. I mean how Furin had created
a purchasing program originally in

00:20:59.859 --> 00:21:04.036
the management department that had
moved over to what was called in the

00:21:04.069 --> 00:21:08.627
purchasing, transportation and
operations department P. T. O. Just before

00:21:08.660 --> 00:21:13.657
I came to Arizona State University.
Then those folks eventually were

00:21:13.690 --> 00:21:19.076
dissolved into other departments. So
we didn't have even the P. T. O. The

00:21:19.109 --> 00:21:24.276
purchasing department anymore When
when I became dean? So creating that

00:21:24.309 --> 00:21:28.207
new supply chain management
department, giving emphasis to services,

00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:33.707
marketing? When I think the marketing
field still saw that as heartily an

00:21:33.740 --> 00:21:38.496
area of prominence inside marketing
and then creating a school of

00:21:38.529 --> 00:21:43.016
accounting, information systems out of
accountancy and faculty. A few

00:21:43.049 --> 00:21:47.447
faculty and information systems from a
department that we took apart at

00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:53.207
that stage. This was a very different
approach to an N. B. A. And not a

00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:57.467
not not one that that you you saw
around the country at all, which again

00:21:57.500 --> 00:22:04.107
gave lots of people pause, Is this the
right way to go?

00:22:04.140 --> 00:22:11.407
Uh Meanwhile we had always had a
reasonably healthy evening NBA program.

00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:19.440
Uh And as the budget pressures built
up, uh we began to think about a way

00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:27.496
to take this locally based evening N.
B. A. And turned it into a source of

00:22:27.529 --> 00:22:32.607
revenue and a source of value for
companies that would like to move some

00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:39.286
of their employees upper management.
And the idea was to charge additional

00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:44.847
supplemental fees. This was something
I believe that that was allowed for

00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:51.907
by the board of regions but virtually
unheard of in any kind of size that

00:22:51.940 --> 00:22:59.167
is, you know, $50 fee's $100 fees were
commonplace, but we thought that

00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:06.217
perhaps we could put a fee attached
rafi to the evening N. B. A. That

00:23:06.250 --> 00:23:11.457
really reflected the value that was
created by the graduate, having

00:23:11.490 --> 00:23:15.407
enhanced skills,

00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:21.147
improved knowledge for success in
their company. Now, this required, of

00:23:21.180 --> 00:23:24.826
course, going to the central
administration, going to the board of regions.

00:23:24.859 --> 00:23:30.816
Do you recall at all how that process
went? And over time of course the

00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:37.296
fees increased to the point where that
was a major source of revenue. Tell

00:23:37.329 --> 00:23:41.506
us a little bit about your
recollections of that whole process. It all

00:23:41.539 --> 00:23:46.687
started as, as I think we at least I
recall is with steve. Apple. And

00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:52.326
steve was then dealing with the
Evening NBA program. And, and steve has

00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:57.877
always been a good advocate for the
program that he ran. What steve did

00:23:57.910 --> 00:24:04.457
was recognized that the Evening NBA
students um had demands that we were

00:24:04.490 --> 00:24:10.867
not meeting at that stage. And in
part, those demands arose out of a kind

00:24:10.900 --> 00:24:14.957
of jealousy, a sibling jealousy. They
saw what we were doing with the full

00:24:14.990 --> 00:24:18.937
time NBA program and they said, well,
we want these things to, we want the

00:24:18.970 --> 00:24:25.097
N. B. A. Experience that you have and
that they were right by the way. And

00:24:25.130 --> 00:24:30.246
, and really what Bill Seidman had
brought us, its focus on the business

00:24:30.279 --> 00:24:34.187
community made it even more right
because all of these students were

00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:39.697
coming from, our local banks are local
high tech businesses. Uh, these

00:24:39.730 --> 00:24:43.117
were the people that we really had a
responsibility to serve to really

00:24:43.150 --> 00:24:47.967
build the quality of the labor force
that was already employed in the

00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:51.506
Arizona area and particularly in the
phoenix metro area. So there was a

00:24:51.539 --> 00:24:56.377
responsibility. So steve began to say,
well, we needed that experience and

00:24:56.410 --> 00:25:01.147
he represented the voice for that in
conversations with you and the chairs

00:25:01.180 --> 00:25:06.236
and other individuals. And so steve
came up with the idea and I don't

00:25:06.269 --> 00:25:09.836
recall exactly how we did all of this
at that time leave, but it was a

00:25:09.869 --> 00:25:15.066
combination of feed them dinner when
they get here. That's right. At one

00:25:15.099 --> 00:25:22.526
point we were a major food service
operation. Yes, to to our dismay when

00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:26.306
we woke up and realized what we were
doing and how much we were spending

00:25:26.339 --> 00:25:32.026
on food service, but this was part and
parcel of beginning. We wanted

00:25:32.059 --> 00:25:36.316
people to get through this program.
The dropout rate in the evening NBA

00:25:36.349 --> 00:25:42.137
program was high at the time it took
to get through the NBA program meant

00:25:42.170 --> 00:25:48.147
that this was a 35 year commitment on
somebody's part taking a course here

00:25:48.180 --> 00:25:53.056
and of course there in a program that
really didn't hang together in an

00:25:53.089 --> 00:25:59.036
integrated way and, and in addition to
to the idea of charging something

00:25:59.069 --> 00:26:03.887
which again causes central
administrations problems because they'll hear

00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:08.177
from the Dean of the Liberal Arts or
Sciences or our fine arts programs

00:26:08.210 --> 00:26:12.066
saying, my goodness, you're going to
let them charge and you're not going

00:26:12.099 --> 00:26:18.806
to let us, uh, so this treat them all
equally. Uh, issue caused us a great

00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.857
deal of difficulty in getting that
past. And then we added another twist

00:26:22.890 --> 00:26:26.796
to it that caused ourselves difficulty
not only with the central

00:26:26.829 --> 00:26:31.377
administration but with our own
faculty. And that was when we came up with

00:26:31.410 --> 00:26:36.576
the idea of proposing a lockstep
evening program for people who are

00:26:36.609 --> 00:26:42.016
working full time roundly believed by
most people as the death of the

00:26:42.049 --> 00:26:47.107
evening NBA It was as if we had
decided how to kill it and this was the

00:26:47.140 --> 00:26:52.576
way to kill it, but it struck me that
if we could give people a sense of a

00:26:52.609 --> 00:26:58.377
realistic timeframe, uh from which
they could enter an M. B. A. Complete

00:26:58.410 --> 00:27:04.137
an M. B. A. That they knew which
courses were offered when and you were

00:27:04.170 --> 00:27:08.486
right there in the middle of our doing
that by giving them a two year

00:27:08.519 --> 00:27:14.726
program by giving them a lock step
program with realistic expectations of

00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:19.066
you enter this program here in less
than two years, you graduate from this

00:27:19.099 --> 00:27:25.006
program. Uh That was an amazing
distinction in an evening NBA program,

00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:28.647
something that almost no one else
across the country that I know of was

00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:33.076
doing at that stage. Uh And of course
it didn't kill the evening and via

00:27:33.109 --> 00:27:37.256
program at all, it it caused that
program to grow. Well, one of the

00:27:37.289 --> 00:27:42.707
features that were we implement,

00:27:42.740 --> 00:27:47.367
We needed to find a way to have people
graduate in two years. We needed to

00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:54.407
find a system that would guarantee
that 99 students would be able to

00:27:54.440 --> 00:27:58.076
graduate in two years. They come in as
a group, they take the classes as a

00:27:58.109 --> 00:28:02.336
group. They graduated as a group, they
would pay supplemental fees and

00:28:02.369 --> 00:28:06.437
they would have their books provided
they would have first class graduate

00:28:06.470 --> 00:28:13.597
experience. The question is this, how
do you get a full 48 hours In two

00:28:13.630 --> 00:28:18.167
years as a part time student? And the
innovation of course was the

00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:22.687
trimester rattle where the courses
were compressed. They still had full

00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:28.847
contact hours. You simply spent a lot
of time in class and this at first

00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:33.457
was a burden for the faculty classes
were longer. It was something new in

00:28:33.490 --> 00:28:37.377
terms of scheduling. It was something
new just in terms of how the central

00:28:37.410 --> 00:28:42.776
administration assigned rooms and so
forth. Um, tell us a little bit about

00:28:42.809 --> 00:28:48.157
how you sold that, uh, both to the
chairs and to the central

00:28:48.190 --> 00:28:53.066
administration and then eventually to
the faculty, You used the word sold.

00:28:53.099 --> 00:28:57.976
Uh, it was a true, it was a marketing
effort. I know it was a tremendous

00:28:58.009 --> 00:29:03.687
change to the College of Business at
that stage And resisted. I think

00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:08.207
almost nearly universally, there
weren't many people early on as we

00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:12.157
discussed that idea who thought that
it would work. Uh, you're absolutely

00:29:12.190 --> 00:29:16.076
right. It lengthened the class time
because we moved to what were

00:29:16.109 --> 00:29:21.316
essentially 10 week trimesters. It
lengthened class time from Less than

00:29:21.349 --> 00:29:27.526
three hours to four hours in the
evening. It was a very long class. It

00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:33.776
made the need for intensive electives,
innovative electives absolutely

00:29:33.809 --> 00:29:39.586
essential. I can recall again, uh, the
proposal that we put together and

00:29:39.619 --> 00:29:44.177
you put that together and we went to
see again, provost Milton Glick and

00:29:44.210 --> 00:29:49.667
Vice provost walter Harris. And of
course they saw immediately many of the

00:29:49.700 --> 00:29:54.066
problems. The fact that this is a
university operating on semesters and

00:29:54.099 --> 00:29:57.377
these were this, this was a day when
we didn't have the student

00:29:57.410 --> 00:30:02.306
information system that many
universities have, uh, the capability of

00:30:02.339 --> 00:30:07.546
flexibility within those frameworks.
And among the many problems. As we

00:30:07.579 --> 00:30:11.157
were starting one course, we're ending
one course in the, you know,

00:30:11.190 --> 00:30:14.576
towards the end of a semester. But
well before the end of the semester,

00:30:14.609 --> 00:30:18.457
starting the second trimester before
the end of the first semester and

00:30:18.490 --> 00:30:24.427
carrying that went over and trying to
then apply the grades required. We

00:30:24.460 --> 00:30:28.447
had to hire staff, You had to hire
staff to deal with that. This was a

00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:32.586
logistics. It was a nightmare to make
it all work. And there was nothing

00:30:32.619 --> 00:30:37.586
in the information system that made it
work so, so again, milk and walter

00:30:37.619 --> 00:30:42.147
understood correctly that this was not
going to be easy at all. This was

00:30:42.180 --> 00:30:46.746
going to be very difficult. But
nonetheless, it was a critical piece of

00:30:46.779 --> 00:30:51.897
giving you this lockstep NBA program
integrated in a different way and

00:30:51.930 --> 00:30:56.397
allowing us to move these students
through here in a short period of time

00:30:56.430 --> 00:31:02.306
to receive their NBA degrees. I mean
essentially what you and I were doing

00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:06.006
was proposing a quarter system inside
the university that was operating on

00:31:06.039 --> 00:31:10.326
a semester system. Now some
universities have made these changes from

00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:14.447
quarters to semesters or semesters two
quarters. It usually takes years,

00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:19.107
lots of discussion and it isn't well
liked by most people. So we were

00:31:19.140 --> 00:31:23.766
introducing some real change. What I
think began to help the chairs

00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:29.927
understand this was the extent to
which you could give faculty a more

00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:35.276
concentrated time frame to do their
research with a concentrated time

00:31:35.309 --> 00:31:41.056
frame to do their teaching by virtue
of the trimesters you had time off,

00:31:41.089 --> 00:31:44.326
you might teach and trimester one and
trimester three that gave you

00:31:44.359 --> 00:31:50.957
trimester too. Uh from, you know,
november to february or so to basically

00:31:50.990 --> 00:31:54.647
do your research right. And you still
have the same number of contact

00:31:54.680 --> 00:32:00.326
hours, a number of contact hours. You
were still freed up to do more

00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:04.887
research than under a semester system.
And and my recollection is the

00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:10.207
faculty really, I began to appreciate
that. And there was a turnaround.

00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:15.836
The NBA began to attract the research
faculty at that point, that was

00:32:15.869 --> 00:32:21.167
really significant. I think that was
just one of a kind of a lift off sort

00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:26.937
of time period where the NBA began to
be respected, I think by our own

00:32:26.970 --> 00:32:32.947
faculty. Well, and you you were a you
you had that message very clearly

00:32:32.980 --> 00:32:38.746
stated early on, we had to have the
research faculty the most well

00:32:38.779 --> 00:32:44.427
recognized faculty in NBA classes and
not looking for an elective over

00:32:44.460 --> 00:32:48.546
here to teach or an elective over
there to teach. We knew that at Wharton

00:32:48.579 --> 00:32:53.447
and stanford uh excellent faculty
teaching the NBA program. We had to have

00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:56.927
the same. We also had to have a
business school that was a good teaching

00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:00.957
program and a good research program.
And you had to build the research

00:33:00.990 --> 00:33:06.306
capacity of faculty and give them the
capacity to do that. This approach,

00:33:06.339 --> 00:33:10.697
You're absolutely right. Was very well
liked by faculty once they

00:33:10.730 --> 00:33:14.707
understood it because it it meant a
number of needs that they had and it

00:33:14.740 --> 00:33:19.006
meant needs that we had as an
administration to push quality into the NBA

00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:27.039
program. I can recall teaching in
1986, I think My 1st NBA class at A. At

00:33:27.410 --> 00:33:31.117
A. S. U. When I was a chair of the
management department, not an

00:33:31.150 --> 00:33:34.796
assignment that anyone quibbled with
me about. No one really wanted to

00:33:34.829 --> 00:33:39.766
teach the required management class in
the NBA program. I could easily

00:33:39.799 --> 00:33:44.536
assign myself that. It was not in
demand. That's because that wasn't of

00:33:44.569 --> 00:33:49.736
interest to anyone. Certainly not to
the quote best faculty in the

00:33:49.769 --> 00:33:54.546
department of management, you know, as
as you're describing the efforts to

00:33:54.579 --> 00:34:01.496
implement the trimester teaching
schedule. I'm having flashbacks, just a

00:34:01.529 --> 00:34:08.117
number of other things we implemented
and I think that during this period

00:34:08.150 --> 00:34:14.907
as we went into the mid nineties, this
is the time when there began to be

00:34:14.940 --> 00:34:20.986
I think so, whispers about what is the
business school up to. That is we

00:34:21.019 --> 00:34:26.416
wanted our own our space. This was a
time when the university actually

00:34:26.449 --> 00:34:31.657
controlled the classrooms. We couldn't
get the trimester classes we wanted

00:34:31.690 --> 00:34:36.236
because the university was set up to
schedule them on a on a semester

00:34:36.269 --> 00:34:38.307
basis.

00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:44.447
Over time, things that seemed to be
totally unthinkable came to pass. We

00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:51.706
did get our own space Central
Administration. Ultimately, it gave us a

00:34:51.739 --> 00:34:59.606
wing in the business school building
that we remodeled for, N. B. A.

00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:03.717
Really call it a lounge, but it was a
meeting area, There were study rooms

00:35:03.750 --> 00:35:09.597
, there were computer facilities and
then I think the most unthinkable

00:35:09.630 --> 00:35:13.597
breakthrough of all was when the
Central administration agreed to allow

00:35:13.630 --> 00:35:19.916
evening M. B. A. Students to park in
the parking garage after hours. So

00:35:19.949 --> 00:35:24.336
there were a number of things that
happened during that period that I

00:35:24.369 --> 00:35:30.046
think, you know, really established
the business school is one of the most

00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:33.307
innovative schools.

00:35:33.340 --> 00:35:37.606
College is really on campus.

00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:42.356
Part of that I think has to do with
your leadership. And just insistence

00:35:42.389 --> 00:35:47.836
that the N. B. A. Is our private. It's
interesting because what you're

00:35:47.869 --> 00:35:51.106
really talking about lee is something
that I think is important for any

00:35:51.139 --> 00:35:57.106
manager to understand and that is how
do you create sustainable change?

00:35:57.139 --> 00:36:02.677
You can inject quick change into a
system into an organization that

00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:08.356
doesn't last very long, but but
injecting sustainable change is a real

00:36:08.389 --> 00:36:14.217
challenge. Um I I used to talk about
uh my orthodontic metaphor that

00:36:14.250 --> 00:36:17.697
cultures of organizations were like
crooked teeth when you went about to

00:36:17.730 --> 00:36:21.597
change them, you needed to put braces
on and keep the braces on for a very

00:36:21.630 --> 00:36:25.296
long period of time. Otherwise the
teeth were returned to their old state.

00:36:25.329 --> 00:36:29.276
And I can recall thinking about our
culture at that point early on in the

00:36:29.309 --> 00:36:33.666
early nineties and how that culture
had to be transformed. Mackenzie has

00:36:33.699 --> 00:36:38.557
back from the seventies what they call
the seven S model of change. And

00:36:38.590 --> 00:36:42.736
they really focused on structure and
systems and staff and a whole set of

00:36:42.769 --> 00:36:46.126
things that have to be integrated and
what you were talking about a moment

00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:51.767
ago. From the parking garage to the
facilities to addressing the rooms are

00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:55.986
at A. S. U. Which many universities
have and getting control of those

00:36:56.019 --> 00:37:02.236
facilities. Those were all big
changes. At the point I became Dean, we

00:37:02.269 --> 00:37:05.936
have two buildings. Bill Siegman and
Bill Rife had built what was then the

00:37:05.969 --> 00:37:12.597
new building, which was considered by
many people fairly low quality and

00:37:12.630 --> 00:37:17.356
whole set of issues Glenn Overman had
in the original building that was

00:37:17.389 --> 00:37:20.427
there, Not the first building that the
business college had. That's

00:37:20.460 --> 00:37:24.566
another building, but in the building
that was then called building number

00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:30.137
one or the old building. We had old
traditional rooms, one of which was

00:37:30.170 --> 00:37:35.557
the room that you'll recall perhaps
your favorite with the stove and all

00:37:35.590 --> 00:37:39.916
of the trappings of kind of a cabin.
Uh There was designed, there was the

00:37:39.949 --> 00:37:44.126
room that was the bank room that hold
all of the antique banks in it that

00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:48.247
gradually were disappearing. Those
rooms have been decorated at fairly

00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:54.796
significant expense with carpet and
furniture and decor by glenn years and

00:37:54.829 --> 00:37:59.407
years ago and they were in
considerable deterioration. We didn't have

00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:03.666
control of the classrooms, We didn't
have facilities that matched what we

00:38:03.699 --> 00:38:06.887
were trying to do on the undergraduate
program level or the, the, the

00:38:06.920 --> 00:38:12.597
graduate program level. So seeking
control of the rooms and then beginning

00:38:12.630 --> 00:38:17.876
to take the money that we were
building, the revenue and on our own invest

00:38:17.909 --> 00:38:23.057
that in the renovation of those
facilities, the restructuring of the

00:38:23.090 --> 00:38:27.447
undergraduate admissions office, the
structure of the career management

00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:32.916
office. The creation of classrooms
that looked looked looked modern and

00:38:32.949 --> 00:38:37.896
particularly this was an age when,
when digital education and the issues

00:38:37.929 --> 00:38:42.396
of digitization and information
technology were coming along and our

00:38:42.429 --> 00:38:46.796
classrooms had lighting that didn't
work. We didn't have power point

00:38:46.829 --> 00:38:50.356
projectors, we didn't have electrical,
that, that that met the needs that

00:38:50.389 --> 00:38:55.586
we had. So there were a whole set of
things that had to be done. And

00:38:55.619 --> 00:39:00.986
sometimes I think we forget how much
the infrastructure really matters in

00:39:01.019 --> 00:39:06.387
bringing about sustainable change and
again it was people like you who

00:39:06.420 --> 00:39:11.217
said, we really must invest in
facilities and of course at that stage,

00:39:11.250 --> 00:39:15.456
given what we talked about earlier
with the budget deficit of the College

00:39:15.489 --> 00:39:19.686
of business, the financial problems of
the state, the revert mints that

00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:23.936
the university was still going through
investing money and facilities.

00:39:23.969 --> 00:39:27.646
When you needed it for student
services, you needed for hiring new faculty

00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:31.686
, you needed it for salary increases
to retain faculty. It seemed like the

00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:37.037
last thing you wanted to do, but
something as, as in a way seemingly

00:39:37.070 --> 00:39:43.066
trivial or unimportant as the
facilities were part and parcel of building

00:39:43.099 --> 00:39:47.867
the sustainable change that
ultimately, I think helped move the school

00:39:47.900 --> 00:39:51.387
toward prominence.

00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:55.967
But meanwhile, we had an undergraduate
program. Am I correct on this? I

00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:01.977
think we came close to accounting for
what was it? 1 4th There? Certainly

00:40:02.010 --> 00:40:08.046
1/5 of all the graduates at any
graduation ceremony would be from the

00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:13.677
school of business. And I think there
was just a view that being so large

00:40:13.710 --> 00:40:19.106
, the quality really couldn't,
couldn't be there yet. It was very popular

00:40:19.139 --> 00:40:27.139
, major. Uh, and I think that even
with rising standards, we still had far

00:40:27.289 --> 00:40:33.197
more applicants than we could really
handle. Talk about the graduate of

00:40:33.230 --> 00:40:36.617
the undergraduate program a little bit
and how that fit in with what we

00:40:36.650 --> 00:40:40.117
were trying to do at the graduate
level. Well, it would be a mistake to

00:40:40.150 --> 00:40:44.637
believe that in those days it wasn't a
good undergraduate program. It was.

00:40:44.670 --> 00:40:48.106
And you heard that from a long night,
You heard that from students in the

00:40:48.139 --> 00:40:53.626
program, were they unhappy with some
things? Sure they were unhappy that

00:40:53.659 --> 00:40:57.747
classes weren't always offered in a
way that met their needs and they

00:40:57.780 --> 00:41:01.467
couldn't get the class that they
needed. We were very large and that made

00:41:01.500 --> 00:41:06.807
it difficult to meet their needs. Um
We taught core classes and very large

00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:13.336
classrooms um for really outstanding
students. There wasn't much of a

00:41:13.369 --> 00:41:17.896
special experience for those really,
really bright young people at that

00:41:17.929 --> 00:41:21.606
stage. But but it would be a mistake
to think that it was not a good

00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:27.537
program, it was a good program. But as
we were building this N. B. A. Over

00:41:27.570 --> 00:41:32.477
here, we were building expectations,
not just for the full time NBA but

00:41:32.510 --> 00:41:36.387
for the evening NBA students and for
the undergraduate students. And it

00:41:36.420 --> 00:41:40.427
would be a mistake to believe that we
weren't already at work on

00:41:40.460 --> 00:41:45.086
transforming the undergraduate program
even as we were changing the M. B.

00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:51.157
A. Program and expending a lot of
effort. Ah yes, rankings were driven by

00:41:51.190 --> 00:41:56.086
NBA programs, not undergraduate
programs, but we knew early on that it was

00:41:56.119 --> 00:42:00.557
clear that if you can rank M. B. A.
Programs and sell US News and World

00:42:00.590 --> 00:42:05.416
Report, you can also rank
undergraduate business programs and sell more U

00:42:05.449 --> 00:42:11.747
. S. News and World Report magazines.
So it was evident that too, from it

00:42:11.780 --> 00:42:15.956
was at your peril, if you had an
undergraduate program not to focus in on

00:42:15.989 --> 00:42:20.416
that undergraduate program and given
just the felt responsibility that you

00:42:20.449 --> 00:42:23.186
have for undergraduate education, I
mean, this is, this is why

00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:27.827
universities have existed Is for to a
great extent for their undergraduate

00:42:27.860 --> 00:42:31.947
education. We had a strong
responsibility to that now a whole set of

00:42:31.980 --> 00:42:36.617
things helped to really raise the
quality of that undergraduate program

00:42:36.650 --> 00:42:43.657
along the way uh in our earliest
strategic plan dating back to 91, that

00:42:43.690 --> 00:42:47.697
period where we engage the business
community, clearly they expected a

00:42:47.730 --> 00:42:52.666
better undergraduate program and we
had that built into the expectations.

00:42:52.699 --> 00:42:56.727
Steve Happel had done something
marvelous when I was still chair of the

00:42:56.760 --> 00:43:01.646
management department and I don't
think I even understood at the time how

00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:07.327
important uh this particular change
was steve had come up with the idea or

00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:12.166
he was at least the sponsor of the
honors program in business to create a

00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:17.666
small group of students that got a
special experience as honors students.

00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:22.126
No, that was, it was very small at
that stage, I think less than 30

00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:26.537
students as I recall, but certainly
not a great deal more than that. If it

00:43:26.570 --> 00:43:32.447
was that large, that was an integral
piece of the change process. The

00:43:32.480 --> 00:43:35.916
strategic direction that we set for
the undergraduate program played a

00:43:35.949 --> 00:43:41.807
role, the work that we did to improve
the quality of the core classes and

00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:45.956
create integration across those core
classes and communication among the

00:43:45.989 --> 00:43:52.126
faculty who taught those basic large
core classes, uh that took quite a

00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:56.606
bit of effort to really revise those
classes. So we went to the heart of

00:43:56.639 --> 00:44:01.206
curriculum change to really deal with
that. We focused in on that

00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:06.997
undergraduate honors program and built
a very substantial undergraduate

00:44:07.030 --> 00:44:11.057
honors program to the point at which I
can still, I told laddie core this

00:44:11.090 --> 00:44:17.727
and a he didn't brown at me too much,
but I I used to sit on the stage at

00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:21.717
graduation, obviously with the rest of
the Dean's behind the president as

00:44:21.750 --> 00:44:27.267
he gave his speech and we would joke
about laddies speech. Laddie even

00:44:27.300 --> 00:44:32.106
made it clear when he gave his speech
that he was giving the same address

00:44:32.139 --> 00:44:37.686
that he had always given since his
first days as president of Vermont. And

00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:43.807
we all essentially knew the speech by
heart, we do it almost as well as as

00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:48.717
the president core do the speech. So
clearly paying attention to it was,

00:44:48.750 --> 00:44:53.717
it was not what was required, I can
recall thumbing through the program

00:44:53.750 --> 00:44:59.236
and basically counting the number of
business honors students that we were

00:44:59.269 --> 00:45:03.767
graduating with their theses And
looking at the total number of honour

00:45:03.800 --> 00:45:08.836
students. And and and saying to
myself, uh we have 45% of them this

00:45:08.869 --> 00:45:15.037
graduation, we have 40% of them were
over 50% of the honor students in the

00:45:15.070 --> 00:45:21.197
university. And this, this gave me a
sense of personal pride that we had

00:45:21.230 --> 00:45:25.756
focused in on the quality of the
undergraduate program, used the honors

00:45:25.789 --> 00:45:30.486
business program in conjunction with
what has become the Barrett honors

00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:34.997
program, uh to really create a quality
experience at the upper end for

00:45:35.030 --> 00:45:39.256
undergraduates, while also driving
quality into the rest of the program.

00:45:39.289 --> 00:45:46.037
Uh We were the largest source of
honors graduates at that time. I would

00:45:46.070 --> 00:45:50.577
sit there also and say to myself with
very good liberal arts program, very

00:45:50.610 --> 00:45:55.947
good fine arts program, a very good
engineering program. Why in the world

00:45:55.980 --> 00:46:01.447
should the business school be the
essentially the largest source of honor

00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:07.477
students in some ways. From a
university perspective, it was out out of

00:46:07.510 --> 00:46:11.666
expectations, but it was part and
parcel of what we were trying to do to

00:46:11.699 --> 00:46:17.146
raise the quality because it it built
a sense of pride in the program. And

00:46:17.179 --> 00:46:22.146
of course we went on to create the
road l program where we were engaging

00:46:22.179 --> 00:46:26.276
honors business students and
developing plans to improve the quality of

00:46:26.309 --> 00:46:30.747
high school education and graduation
rates of at risk students in high

00:46:30.780 --> 00:46:35.106
schools across the valley with those
honors students developing business

00:46:35.139 --> 00:46:41.177
plans to do so again, an outcome of
that, but along the way as well. And

00:46:41.210 --> 00:46:45.126
perhaps I've spent too much time
answering this question, but we did

00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:49.876
something else that two other things
that that really mattered to the

00:46:49.909 --> 00:46:53.416
undergraduate program. One thing we
did was propose an admissions program

00:46:53.449 --> 00:46:57.247
, you'll recall that

00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:00.807
not exactly something that everyone in
central administration jumped up

00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:07.276
and down about it said this is a great
idea, but I do remember that this

00:47:07.309 --> 00:47:12.887
whole issue of inability to get the
courses that you needed in order to

00:47:12.920 --> 00:47:15.046
graduate

00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:20.436
caused a lot of concern among
students. They think they can graduate in

00:47:20.469 --> 00:47:24.747
four years or 4.5 years, but of course
is aren't there? The courses are

00:47:24.780 --> 00:47:31.646
full and through the admissions
program, I believe that problem just

00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:37.447
dissolved. It went away, it did go
away. It went away though at a time

00:47:37.480 --> 00:47:41.986
where the university had a lot of
students who never graduated from the

00:47:42.019 --> 00:47:46.276
institution who couldn't find majors
and get through them. So we were

00:47:46.309 --> 00:47:51.626
proposing a restriction on entry to
the undergraduate business program. At

00:47:51.659 --> 00:47:56.816
the same time, the university was
trying to resolve low graduation rates

00:47:56.849 --> 00:48:01.347
and high numbers of students who could
not really stick with a major. Uh

00:48:01.380 --> 00:48:06.017
so what we did were several things in
combination that I think mattered

00:48:06.050 --> 00:48:10.327
both for the business school and for
the university at large, Obviously

00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:15.376
for the business school, assuring some
degree of of reasonable expectation

00:48:15.409 --> 00:48:19.077
of graduation timeframe expectation
that you could get a class that was

00:48:19.110 --> 00:48:23.907
all essential. The admissions program
allowed us to know predictably how

00:48:23.940 --> 00:48:29.577
many students we have. It had other
side benefits in that it created the

00:48:29.610 --> 00:48:33.186
same sense among the undergraduates
that you had in the N. B. A. A sense

00:48:33.219 --> 00:48:37.197
of camaraderie, a sense that we're the
selected ones. We've been admitted

00:48:37.230 --> 00:48:42.637
to the fraternity or the sorority and
others have not. So it's kind of,

00:48:42.670 --> 00:48:46.447
you can argue with whether that's a
good feeling or not, but that feeling

00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:50.606
was clearly there as a result of that.
And we created two kinds of

00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:55.557
admission, a direct admission
ultimately, as a freshman, um, and also an

00:48:55.590 --> 00:48:58.657
admissions program when you
transferred in from the community college

00:48:58.690 --> 00:49:02.157
where you have started your program
elsewhere in the university and wanted

00:49:02.190 --> 00:49:06.157
to come into the program. Again, this
was a lot of resources, but not

00:49:06.190 --> 00:49:08.537
surprisingly

00:49:08.570 --> 00:49:11.727
from from the rest of the university
people would say, well, what you're

00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:14.637
really going to do is push these
students off on our program and and

00:49:14.670 --> 00:49:19.206
enlarge our classes, not not exactly
what you would want to have happen in

00:49:19.239 --> 00:49:25.686
the rest of the institution. So what
we did was create a business minor, a

00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:30.436
set of courses that were designed to
have fairly large enrollments

00:49:30.469 --> 00:49:34.856
available to the entire institution so
that you could be an architecture

00:49:34.889 --> 00:49:39.717
major or fine arts major or an
engineer and get access to business

00:49:39.750 --> 00:49:44.776
education. And we all knew that lots
of young people end up in business

00:49:44.809 --> 00:49:49.197
without business degrees. And
basically we could do something that

00:49:49.230 --> 00:49:54.186
mattered for those young people along
the way, resisted by the way, not by

00:49:54.219 --> 00:49:57.927
central administration, but by on the
faculty at the time. Central

00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:01.867
Administration saw this as something
that offset what we were doing with

00:50:01.900 --> 00:50:05.396
the restriction and enrollment through
the admissions program to a

00:50:05.429 --> 00:50:10.566
specific number of students, but what
we did at the same time was

00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:16.236
according to some faculty at that
stage, perhaps allow people to claim

00:50:16.269 --> 00:50:20.206
that they were business majors when in
fact they weren't. Uh so this would

00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:24.887
depreciate the quality of a business
degree if we offered a minor in

00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:32.920
business, uh that was severely
resisted, but the outcome for all the

00:50:33.099 --> 00:50:36.986
faculty who also felt that there had
been too much attention to the NBA

00:50:37.019 --> 00:50:40.936
program and there needed to be
attention to the undergraduate. We were

00:50:40.969 --> 00:50:45.197
engaged and finally, from their point
of view, really delivering to the

00:50:45.230 --> 00:50:51.566
undergraduate program, that kind of
focus the kind of services that that

00:50:51.599 --> 00:50:56.717
that would matter to the quality of
that program that ultimately allowed

00:50:56.750 --> 00:51:00.767
it to be acceptable, even though there
was still fear about these students

00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:07.126
who had a minor in business.

00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:11.276
Well, fundamentally, it's about
curriculum, but it it's really a broader

00:51:11.309 --> 00:51:18.247
topic. It's it's about really the
focus and the evolution of the business

00:51:18.280 --> 00:51:22.227
school. The topic would be
globalization

00:51:22.260 --> 00:51:27.217
during the nineties. There was an
opening up of eastern europe, of course

00:51:27.250 --> 00:51:35.046
, the emergence of china and
recognition that students should have better

00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:38.626
global understanding.

00:51:38.659 --> 00:51:42.916
Talk about some of the things that uh
that you did, that you thought were

00:51:42.949 --> 00:51:46.836
important during that period to
further globalize the school of business

00:51:46.869 --> 00:51:52.727
from the earliest strategic plan in 91
or 92, we had made globalization a

00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:58.146
piece of that plan. Uh we had made
globalization of peace, interestingly,

00:51:58.179 --> 00:52:04.517
in terms of, of transforming faculty
and helping students go abroad. Uh

00:52:04.550 --> 00:52:09.236
those were the two pieces of that plan
initially. Uh and the transforming

00:52:09.269 --> 00:52:13.986
faculty piece, the professional
development of faculty was very important

00:52:14.019 --> 00:52:18.907
as faculty when we go through these
doctoral programs. Uh we we get in our

00:52:18.940 --> 00:52:21.907
heads I think, even though we know we
have still lots of learning that

00:52:21.940 --> 00:52:26.807
we're somehow prepared, that we know
what to do. Um and we knew that we

00:52:26.840 --> 00:52:31.927
needed to help faculty to be more
international. Uh Arizona is not a

00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:36.447
wealthy state. Our students were not
wealthy students, many of them we

00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:41.097
knew just like most americans would
never go abroad yet to be a good

00:52:41.130 --> 00:52:46.287
business student when these
undergraduate students needed an international

00:52:46.320 --> 00:52:50.887
experience. So, so we did a number of
things. We gave grants that helped

00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:55.396
to internationalize courses that
allowed faculty time to develop

00:52:55.429 --> 00:52:59.747
international experiences. We found,
we looked for ways to encourage

00:52:59.780 --> 00:53:04.227
faculty to go abroad and became more
flexible with that at the

00:53:04.260 --> 00:53:09.617
undergraduate level. We deliberately
developed close ties with schools

00:53:09.650 --> 00:53:14.436
abroad so that it was easy to transfer
back not just a history course or a

00:53:14.469 --> 00:53:18.787
french course or a spanish course, but
to transfer back business classes

00:53:18.820 --> 00:53:22.686
which had never been done before. You
only transferred back the elective

00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:26.376
classes, which meant that many
students made very little progress toward

00:53:26.409 --> 00:53:30.066
the degree programs and going abroad.
Again inconsistent with our desire

00:53:30.099 --> 00:53:33.447
to help an undergraduate student get
through the university in in a

00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:38.677
reasonable amount of time, joe Breda
directed international programs. And

00:53:38.710 --> 00:53:45.677
joe just did a marvelous job of
working at that joe obviously. Uh you know

00:53:45.710 --> 00:53:51.046
, his family checked refugees. He
understood europe, he still went to

00:53:51.079 --> 00:53:54.836
europe a lot, still does today. He had
done a number. I mean, he

00:53:54.869 --> 00:53:59.166
understood what, what the value of an
international perspective was for a

00:53:59.199 --> 00:54:04.347
business student. He understood that
we could create exchange

00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:11.166
relationships with a given school in a
situation where you had a partner

00:54:11.199 --> 00:54:15.577
that had high quality or reasonable
quality undergraduate business

00:54:15.610 --> 00:54:20.447
education. He understood that you
needed someone at that school, whether

00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:27.217
it was in chile or in Scotland who was
a dependable person. If there was a

00:54:27.250 --> 00:54:31.856
problem, we could call that person up
and get a resolution to the problem.

00:54:31.889 --> 00:54:34.947
If we needed to bring an additional
student, we had somebody who could

00:54:34.980 --> 00:54:38.586
make that happen if the student did
not get a room quickly enough when

00:54:38.619 --> 00:54:42.827
they arrived, there was somebody who
dealt with that. So joe insisted on

00:54:42.860 --> 00:54:48.747
that the program also had to be in an
attractive area. We're faculty would

00:54:48.780 --> 00:54:52.456
want to go as well as students
attractive to faculty by virtue of the

00:54:52.489 --> 00:54:56.276
quality of the faculty of the school
attracted to faculty and student, by

00:54:56.309 --> 00:55:01.217
virtue of its location, a place not in
the middle of nowhere, but a place

00:55:01.250 --> 00:55:06.776
that was interesting and fun to go to.
Uh ultimately, uh, somewhat like

00:55:06.809 --> 00:55:10.686
the honor situation, the business
school became the largest source of

00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:15.376
exchange students going abroad of any
college at the university at the

00:55:15.409 --> 00:55:19.157
undergraduate level. And it really had
to do with setting up this

00:55:19.190 --> 00:55:23.336
infrastructure that joe brady has set
up and really giving emphasis

00:55:23.369 --> 00:55:28.247
through our strategic direction to
that. But but that's really as you know

00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:33.177
, only part of the story because in
the mid nineties and I can't recall

00:55:33.210 --> 00:55:38.316
the whether you were in the conference
room with joe Breda and back pay

00:55:38.349 --> 00:55:43.646
and me or not, probably you were as we
worked on my white board that I

00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:51.679
loved to rethink the were you there?
Uh huh I don't recall specifically,

00:55:54.239 --> 00:55:58.006
We were rethinking could have been
there. You probably were, we were

00:55:58.039 --> 00:56:02.606
rethinking, we were rethinking the
strategic direction of the

00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:06.657
globalization piece of our strategy
from the early 90s. And this was about

00:56:06.690 --> 00:56:09.197
1994,

00:56:09.230 --> 00:56:13.997
And what we did that day was to to
recognize that if we were really going

00:56:14.030 --> 00:56:18.847
to fundamentally move forward with
globalization of the business school

00:56:18.880 --> 00:56:23.606
and the experience of students. Again,
the faculty had to be the focus.

00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:27.747
Not only did the faculty had have to
be the focus, we have to be very

00:56:27.780 --> 00:56:32.697
deliberate about which sectors of the
globe we focused on at that stage.

00:56:32.730 --> 00:56:36.637
So those were the two things that
really received emphasis in that meeting

00:56:36.670 --> 00:56:43.376
that day, sectors of the world and
faculty transformation recognizing

00:56:43.409 --> 00:56:47.686
already that we had an international
exchange program for undergraduates

00:56:47.719 --> 00:56:54.597
that was working reasonably well in
getting those students abroad on the

00:56:54.630 --> 00:56:59.666
geographical side. We looked at
western europe, we looked at latin America.

00:56:59.699 --> 00:57:04.787
Both were already attractive. We
considered at that stage, uh eastern

00:57:04.820 --> 00:57:11.407
europe and ultimately we did make some
forays into eastern europe. Ah but

00:57:11.440 --> 00:57:16.296
we also recognize that as these
countries and the business schools were

00:57:16.329 --> 00:57:20.526
just coming out of, of communism, that
this was going to be a one way

00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:25.077
street. We could decide that it was
our goal to help them develop, which

00:57:25.110 --> 00:57:29.626
we did in Macedonia for instance, to a
great extent with a grant from the

00:57:29.659 --> 00:57:33.686
federal government. But but if we were
going to partner with a Russian

00:57:33.719 --> 00:57:37.956
business school or partner with a
check school at that stage, The

00:57:37.989 --> 00:57:43.467
probability was a one way street. So
we decided that that may not be where

00:57:43.500 --> 00:57:47.407
we wanted to put a lot of emphasis
early on, although ultimately we did go

00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:51.256
to Russia. Ultimately we did go to the
Czech Republic. Ultimately we did

00:57:51.289 --> 00:57:55.077
go to Macedonia with the program that
was designed to really change that

00:57:55.110 --> 00:57:59.947
business school from a communist and
Marxist oriented economics program to

00:57:59.980 --> 00:58:05.597
a business school, but instead we
focused on Asia and perhaps because buck

00:58:05.630 --> 00:58:11.367
pay was in the room, but but I think
also because one could see what was

00:58:11.400 --> 00:58:16.117
going to happen with china, one could
see It's growing competitive

00:58:16.150 --> 00:58:19.816
character, one could see what was
going to happen to its position in the

00:58:19.849 --> 00:58:26.267
globe even 15, 20 years ago. One could
envision that. We knew that we

00:58:26.300 --> 00:58:31.887
needed to focus in on china and that
was critical to us at that stage. We

00:58:31.920 --> 00:58:36.416
said okay if we want to focus on china
and we want to get faculty there to

00:58:36.449 --> 00:58:39.097
learn about china so they can bring
that learning back to their

00:58:39.130 --> 00:58:43.336
undergraduate students. Here are their
NBA students, how do we get back?

00:58:43.369 --> 00:58:48.717
We'll tea in china. Uh They're not
going to know mandarin. Uh We don't

00:58:48.750 --> 00:58:52.227
have the money to send them again.
This was not a business school that was

00:58:52.260 --> 00:58:56.526
wealthy even with our fees that we
were charging at that point for the NBA

00:58:56.559 --> 00:59:00.796
program. And ultimately the
undergraduate program. So we came up, we

00:59:00.829 --> 00:59:08.617
hatched an idea to find a business
that needed an M. B. A. Program for its

00:59:08.650 --> 00:59:14.646
employees in china. And it was my job
to go out to all of our business

00:59:14.679 --> 00:59:19.097
partners and begin to talk with each
one. Well you have some work you're

00:59:19.130 --> 00:59:22.217
doing in china over there in the
mining area or you're doing it in this

00:59:22.250 --> 00:59:26.557
area. You're doing it in that area. Uh
here's an idea. We have, could we

00:59:26.590 --> 00:59:34.590
help you by educating your employees
ah one company as you well know bit

00:59:34.610 --> 00:59:39.967
so to speak. They saw an opportunity
and that was Motorola. We obviously

00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:45.097
had a wonderful relationship with
Motorola. Gary Tooker was the Ceo at

00:59:45.130 --> 00:59:49.077
that point. We knew lots of people, we
had educated, lots of young people

00:59:49.110 --> 00:59:54.537
, uh, and who went to Motorola to work
with educated, lots of engineers

00:59:54.570 --> 01:00:00.256
who had obtained NBA program, N. B. A.
Degrees from us. So Motorola said,

01:00:00.289 --> 01:00:05.157
well, this is very interesting. And
you and Buck and I and Peter from

01:00:05.190 --> 01:00:13.190
engineering. Uh, Peter Peter Crouch.
We went to Beijing and we talked to

01:00:13.550 --> 01:00:18.316
Qinghua University and a number of
other universities, Tianjin, a number

01:00:18.349 --> 01:00:22.336
of them. Because we knew we needed not
only a university, we needed

01:00:22.369 --> 01:00:26.597
Motorola, but we needed a university
as a partner to because we wanted to

01:00:26.630 --> 01:00:31.747
link faculty back to the university.
What we realized ultimately, and the

01:00:31.780 --> 01:00:36.756
partnership became one between Arizona
State University. Um, chihuahua

01:00:36.789 --> 01:00:42.617
University generally considered the M.
I. T. Of china and Motorola uh,

01:00:42.650 --> 01:00:46.626
that we could create a very intensive
education program building on our

01:00:46.659 --> 01:00:52.287
trimesters. Uh, at that point we had
built lots of digital capability in

01:00:52.320 --> 01:00:56.827
terms of curriculum delivery at that
stage as well. So building on what we

01:00:56.860 --> 01:00:59.666
have done in the N. B. A. Building on
what we had done with instructional

01:00:59.699 --> 01:01:04.467
technology and instructional design.
We could deliver an NBA there where

01:01:04.500 --> 01:01:08.637
faculty went for a reasonably short
period of time and given the trimester

01:01:08.670 --> 01:01:12.447
situation, faculty had time to do that
because they had time during the

01:01:12.480 --> 01:01:15.387
year where they weren't teaching a
regular course during one of the

01:01:15.420 --> 01:01:22.796
trimesters and Motorola had its own
need Motorola had and I recall looking

01:01:22.829 --> 01:01:26.336
at the org chart and we sat in the
room in Tianjin looking at the

01:01:26.369 --> 01:01:32.267
organizational chart and noting of the
13 top executives in, in Motorola

01:01:32.300 --> 01:01:39.046
China, only one was from the People's
republic of China. Everybody else

01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:45.137
virtually was a somebody who had
chinese background but had been invited

01:01:45.170 --> 01:01:49.876
into the country uh, to work at
Motorola. We understood that the

01:01:49.909 --> 01:01:56.227
government wanted Motorola to, to
educate, to train uh, its own citizens

01:01:56.260 --> 01:02:00.037
and the people's republic of china to
become the key executives. Motorola

01:02:00.070 --> 01:02:05.396
had felt responsibility to do so. So
we knew they understood that they had

01:02:05.429 --> 01:02:10.566
a lot of education to do. We were an
opportunity to deliver that education

01:02:10.599 --> 01:02:18.316
10 Qinghua great school, but still
like so many schools. And even more

01:02:18.349 --> 01:02:22.867
obviously when we visited Tianjin
University with their Marxist economics

01:02:22.900 --> 01:02:28.736
program there, uh, Qinghua was further
along. But Qinghua understood that

01:02:28.769 --> 01:02:34.736
they needed to learn how to deliver an
N. B. A. And a specific Mbia. Uh,

01:02:34.769 --> 01:02:38.447
you'll recall the day you came to me
and said Larry, have you looked at

01:02:38.480 --> 01:02:43.566
the enrollment of our NBA program, our
evening MBA. It's mostly engineers

01:02:43.599 --> 01:02:47.477
yet. We're not teaching an M. B. A.
Program that responds to them. You

01:02:47.510 --> 01:02:52.157
recall that this is a digression, but
it's important to our ability to do

01:02:52.190 --> 01:02:57.157
the globalization pieces, you know,
and we created from that a technology

01:02:57.190 --> 01:03:01.997
M. B. A. In collaboration with
Honeywell intel Inside Roll Qinghua saw

01:03:02.030 --> 01:03:07.247
that Tech N. B. A. As we called it in
those days, a huge opportunity for

01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:11.927
them to educate engineers in the
business area. So they became a willing

01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:16.747
partner with us in that program. Uh
from that of course we created the

01:03:16.780 --> 01:03:23.146
program in shanghai which is still
going on today. The college has had or

01:03:23.179 --> 01:03:29.066
the school has had an M. B. A. Program
in china now for more than a decade

01:03:29.099 --> 01:03:35.686
uh reasonably profitable for a
nonprofit institution. And I way to

01:03:35.719 --> 01:03:41.867
transform our faculty and a way to
build students out there.

01:03:41.900 --> 01:03:49.900
Okay buck pay associate dean for asian
programs Really if you had to

01:03:49.949 --> 01:03:57.896
identify one person that is really
turned our chinese programs into really

01:03:57.929 --> 01:04:02.816
notable nationally and internationally
recognized programs. I think it is

01:04:02.849 --> 01:04:10.206
certainly it is buck pay uh the day we
all entered china for the first

01:04:10.239 --> 01:04:16.356
time on that cold winter it was buck
pay who couldn't get through

01:04:16.389 --> 01:04:21.626
the the the customs and the inspection
and that sort of peace. You and I

01:04:21.659 --> 01:04:25.816
and everybody else had gone through
quickly. Uh buck had grown up in

01:04:25.849 --> 01:04:32.307
Taiwan was an american citizen. His
name picker. We had bucks on his

01:04:32.340 --> 01:04:37.017
passport at that point as his first
day and the chinese were not happy.

01:04:37.050 --> 01:04:41.646
They knew he was chinese and they knew
his name was not right. So it was

01:04:41.679 --> 01:04:47.557
buck who had the interrogations as we
entered at that stage. It was yeah

01:04:47.590 --> 01:04:54.006
it was buck pay and buck if you'll
recall as we sat around and we visited

01:04:54.039 --> 01:04:59.236
one university after another. And we
argued at the end of the day about

01:04:59.269 --> 01:05:02.856
what we had learned that day and what
we needed to do. It was not an easy

01:05:02.889 --> 01:05:07.137
situation. But buck was the one who
saw clearly how to make that work. It

01:05:07.170 --> 01:05:12.097
was buck who saw the opportunity in
shanghai. Uh It was buck who realized

01:05:12.130 --> 01:05:16.376
that working with the Ministry of
Finance would serve us well which we did

01:05:16.409 --> 01:05:21.517
with that program in shanghai. The one
thing I know buck had real

01:05:21.550 --> 01:05:27.577
heartburn about in our relationship
was as we were trying to to start the

01:05:27.610 --> 01:05:30.756
NBA program in shanghai.

01:05:30.789 --> 01:05:34.947
The chinese were resisting. We had our
partnership with Motorola had been

01:05:34.980 --> 01:05:39.006
a huge advantage basically. Motorola
paid us for the NBA program. When we

01:05:39.039 --> 01:05:43.336
started the program in shanghai, we
were dealing directly with the PRC's

01:05:43.369 --> 01:05:48.686
Ministry of Finance and they wanted to
pay us in RMB. RMB were useless to

01:05:48.719 --> 01:05:53.827
us. Uh you had to spend RMB only in
one place in china. And so buck had

01:05:53.860 --> 01:05:57.506
come back time after time with these
negotiations and saying Larry, I

01:05:57.539 --> 01:06:01.367
really think we need to do this. But
they they can't pay us in dollars.

01:06:01.400 --> 01:06:04.847
It's a non convertible concurrency.
And I said buck, you're going to have

01:06:04.880 --> 01:06:09.836
to go back and tell them that you're
Dean says we will not do this program

01:06:09.869 --> 01:06:13.856
if they cannot give us a dollar
account, buck says they will not give us a

01:06:13.889 --> 01:06:17.436
dollar account. They can't give us a
dollar account. We're not investing

01:06:17.469 --> 01:06:21.197
anything in the country like Motorola
or intel only for people who are

01:06:21.230 --> 01:06:26.577
investing from the external
marketplace that gives you a right to get a

01:06:26.610 --> 01:06:29.416
dollar account. Well, you're going to
have to go back and tell them I

01:06:29.449 --> 01:06:33.236
won't do it. We can't afford it, we
can't spend the money that we've

01:06:33.269 --> 01:06:37.247
earned up here in Beijing and are
earning and spend that on shanghai. Well

01:06:37.280 --> 01:06:42.086
, he came back and of course, the, the
program has been a success and is a

01:06:42.119 --> 01:06:46.557
success because the Ministry of
Finance went to the Bank of china and

01:06:46.590 --> 01:06:51.936
petition to the Bank of china to give
us a dollar account. And I suspect

01:06:51.969 --> 01:06:57.727
if we were not the first dollar
account uh, since 1949, when the

01:06:57.760 --> 01:07:03.186
communists took over, we were one of
the very earliest dollar accounts

01:07:03.219 --> 01:07:09.517
associated with a non large corporate
business that had huge investments

01:07:09.550 --> 01:07:14.026
in China. Our investment in china was
different. We were transforming the

01:07:14.059 --> 01:07:19.376
, the people of china and that was the
investment that I think the Bank of

01:07:19.409 --> 01:07:24.847
china and the Ministry of Finance saws
value.

01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:30.126
You've mentioned budget issues related
to practically every every topic

01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:36.137
here. Um, tell us a little bit about
development activities, The

01:07:36.170 --> 01:07:41.247
involvement with the business
community in particular. Um My sense of the

01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:46.697
background there is that it was Bill
Siegman that really Established

01:07:46.730 --> 01:07:52.517
uh, that first outreach with the
Dean's Council 100 setting up the

01:07:52.550 --> 01:07:59.037
economic club of Phoenix. So those
were in place, but a whole lot more

01:07:59.070 --> 01:08:03.046
needed to be done to move the business
school into a position of national

01:08:03.079 --> 01:08:07.367
prominence. What were some of the
challenges related to working with the

01:08:07.400 --> 01:08:12.997
business community, the fundraising
development issues we owe Bill Seidman

01:08:13.030 --> 01:08:16.727
an enormous debt for what he did in
creating the economic club of phoenix

01:08:16.760 --> 01:08:21.737
and the Dean's Council of 100 all of
the research centers that he created

01:08:21.770 --> 01:08:26.027
along the way. At one point I was in
Washington and Bill and I were

01:08:26.060 --> 01:08:28.527
talking about the business school and
he said to me, well, how's it going

01:08:28.560 --> 01:08:32.916
? And I said, well, Bill, the finances
are really a struggle. And I said

01:08:32.949 --> 01:08:37.366
to be honest, you left me with a whole
set of research centers that had no

01:08:37.399 --> 01:08:41.637
funding any kind of Riley smiles and
looks at me and said, well, Larry, I

01:08:41.670 --> 01:08:46.906
wanted to leave you something to do.
Uh and indeed he did leave us

01:08:46.939 --> 01:08:51.927
something to do. And as I became Dean,
it was clear that the business

01:08:51.960 --> 01:08:56.897
community's expectations from the days
of Bill Seidman had been high and

01:08:56.930 --> 01:09:00.876
from their point of view, their
engagement with us had not fulfilled those

01:09:00.909 --> 01:09:05.437
expectations. That was the reason we
started that strategic planning

01:09:05.470 --> 01:09:11.687
effort. That was the reason we created
uh, the retirees group that worked

01:09:11.720 --> 01:09:16.557
with NBA students as tutors and
mentors. We needed to engage the business

01:09:16.590 --> 01:09:20.916
community with the business school And
only through that kind of

01:09:20.949 --> 01:09:25.456
engagement could we hope that they
would deliver on, on money that we

01:09:25.489 --> 01:09:30.616
badly needed. So maintaining that
Dean's Council of 100 and the membership

01:09:30.649 --> 01:09:35.097
in it was critical at an early stage.
As you know, the economic club is a

01:09:35.130 --> 01:09:38.286
vehicle for us to reach out to the
community and even though you pay dues

01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:42.767
, most of the dudes are consumed by
the lunches and the expenses of the

01:09:42.800 --> 01:09:47.336
economic club. But, but the Dean's
council 100 provided us the summer

01:09:47.369 --> 01:09:51.336
research grants that helped to retain
faculty. It provided us with a great

01:09:51.369 --> 01:09:55.597
deal of the money that we needed to,
to globalize the business school. Uh

01:09:55.630 --> 01:10:03.086
, to really work on instructional
design for our specialized NBA programs

01:10:03.119 --> 01:10:07.567
that really demanded that to increase
the digitization of the curriculum

01:10:07.600 --> 01:10:12.027
at the undergraduate level. So, so the
money was critical along the way.

01:10:12.060 --> 01:10:16.477
Um, getting the business community to
provide those donations was

01:10:16.510 --> 01:10:20.906
absolutely essential. So there was a
lot of work to do to deal with that.

01:10:20.939 --> 01:10:25.296
We had to create, uh, an alumni
database that was accurate. We had to go

01:10:25.329 --> 01:10:30.046
out and hold alumni events around the
country, which we did, we had to

01:10:30.079 --> 01:10:34.696
retain the local business community
here. Those who had no reason

01:10:34.729 --> 01:10:39.767
necessarily to support us like Bank
one, which named your center at that

01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:45.517
stage. Uh, there was no reason that
they had to do that, but I think mike

01:10:45.550 --> 01:10:53.550
Welborn kind of, who's still here
today. Uh probably explained best how we

01:10:53.859 --> 01:10:58.307
made the change with the business
community. I was in his office one day

01:10:58.340 --> 01:11:02.437
at Bank one and Mike said to me for
whatever reason, and Mike was a

01:11:02.470 --> 01:11:07.057
Harvard M. B. A. Who was very involved
with our business school. And

01:11:07.090 --> 01:11:11.876
certainly the reason, I think for the
naming out of Bank One, but Mike

01:11:11.909 --> 01:11:16.937
said, Larry, I can do your story about
the business school as well as you

01:11:16.970 --> 01:11:20.557
can. I've heard it so many times and I
said, that's wonderful, mike,

01:11:20.590 --> 01:11:25.536
you're a lot more believable than I
am. Mike could indeed tell our story

01:11:25.569 --> 01:11:32.906
and in many business people could tell
our story uh in ways that uh made

01:11:32.939 --> 01:11:37.977
it more credible than just our telling
our story. Marketing. It was

01:11:38.010 --> 01:11:41.097
essential to the transformation of the
recognition of the business school

01:11:41.130 --> 01:11:46.086
, but having business people who could
do our promotion for us for free,

01:11:46.119 --> 01:11:50.046
that that that that that was great.
So, so the fundraising was critical

01:11:50.079 --> 01:11:56.227
along the way, laddie core initiated a
capital campaign for the university

01:11:56.260 --> 01:12:00.166
that we played a major role in. Uh and
we were very successful during that

01:12:00.199 --> 01:12:03.987
capital campaign. It was really only
after the capital campaign that the

01:12:04.020 --> 01:12:08.956
naming came along. But the work
towards that began. Well, what, well

01:12:08.989 --> 01:12:14.416
before that, during the capital
campaign,

01:12:14.449 --> 01:12:21.767
tell us about the naming the initial
outreach to William polk Carey, um,

01:12:21.800 --> 01:12:29.800
how that all, how that all came about.
He's a Wall Street figure thousands

01:12:29.989 --> 01:12:35.717
of miles away from Arizona, how did he
come to name the School of Business

01:12:35.750 --> 01:12:42.987
? Bill Carey does seem like, I think
lee an unlikely source of the money

01:12:43.020 --> 01:12:49.196
and the name for this business school
in many ways. Uh, it's less a

01:12:49.229 --> 01:12:53.086
mystery when you understand Bill's
relationship to Arizona State

01:12:53.119 --> 01:12:59.286
University and his relationship to
people here in Arizona. Um Yolanda and

01:12:59.319 --> 01:13:04.567
I, my wife often went to a lot of
christmas parties and like so many

01:13:04.600 --> 01:13:09.696
things that we did, the party was part
business and part enjoyment. Uh,

01:13:09.729 --> 01:13:15.706
and that was what we did for lots of
events. The wind singers, Reggie and

01:13:15.739 --> 01:13:19.737
Leila had invited us to their home a
number of years to a christmas party.

01:13:19.770 --> 01:13:23.437
And unfortunately because of all the
commitments, we said, oh Reggie

01:13:23.470 --> 01:13:29.286
Leila, we can't come this year. And
Yolanda said to me, Larry, we must go

01:13:29.319 --> 01:13:33.036
, we've been telling them for two
years now that we were unable to make

01:13:33.069 --> 01:13:38.107
their party, we must go. So, so we
drove to their house sometime prior to

01:13:38.140 --> 01:13:43.376
the christmas holidays. Um and Reggie
and Leila were welcoming and warm

01:13:43.409 --> 01:13:48.977
and had a house full of people. Um and
Yolanda had, by the way, fallen

01:13:49.010 --> 01:13:52.506
just before we went into the house and
we started to turn around because

01:13:52.539 --> 01:13:55.687
she had just fallen on the sidewalk,
but she said no, we're going to this

01:13:55.720 --> 01:14:00.166
party. So it went to the party and
along the way we were introduced to

01:14:00.199 --> 01:14:04.217
this fellow Bill Carey, whom I had
never met before, didn't know much

01:14:04.250 --> 01:14:09.987
about the W. P. Carey company at that
stage. I found him a very, very

01:14:10.020 --> 01:14:15.496
interesting human being. Someone who
understood education, not just higher

01:14:15.529 --> 01:14:19.996
education because his grandmother was
involved in a very important private

01:14:20.029 --> 01:14:25.387
Baltimore school in founding that, but
interested in higher education and

01:14:25.420 --> 01:14:32.286
the broader K through 12, he obviously
loved warden was involved in the

01:14:32.319 --> 01:14:37.307
big business schools on the east coast
was on the board of johns Hopkins

01:14:37.340 --> 01:14:39.506
University.

01:14:39.539 --> 01:14:42.626
The polk family had been the founders
of the university of north Carolina

01:14:42.659 --> 01:14:47.727
, the pope who became president. So he
was related to them as well. So the

01:14:47.760 --> 01:14:52.767
history of Bill Carey involvement with
education went back centuries

01:14:52.800 --> 01:14:58.217
literally what was interesting and
what I didn't know was that it was his

01:14:58.250 --> 01:15:03.217
relatives, particularly one of his
relatives who had been responsible for

01:15:03.250 --> 01:15:07.246
creating the legislation during the
territorial days of Arizona that

01:15:07.279 --> 01:15:10.956
created Arizona State University
before it became a state. So his

01:15:10.989 --> 01:15:15.357
relatives here in Arizona were also
responsible for involvement in higher

01:15:15.390 --> 01:15:20.256
education. Now Bill had very little
knowledge of Arizona State University

01:15:20.289 --> 01:15:27.027
at that time. Um, but it was such a
fun conversation and I found myself so

01:15:27.060 --> 01:15:33.637
intrigued by this businessman, uh, and
his background and his interest and

01:15:33.670 --> 01:15:39.027
his lively conversation, His
intellectual capacity that we agreed that we

01:15:39.060 --> 01:15:44.496
would see each other again. Um, and we
did, we came to lunch here. He

01:15:44.529 --> 01:15:51.126
spoke to some students, I went to new
york. It was a long, long, um, kind

01:15:51.159 --> 01:15:56.696
of building of a relationship, Was it
a courtship? Well, I started to use

01:15:56.729 --> 01:16:01.866
that word and I suppose it was a
courtship in a way because as I got to

01:16:01.899 --> 01:16:05.256
know Bill Kerry better in his company,
I understood that both, he gave

01:16:05.289 --> 01:16:09.196
away a lot of money and he had the
money to, to name the business school.

01:16:09.229 --> 01:16:13.796
 And as you recall during the

01:16:13.829 --> 01:16:17.956
capital campaign, one of the early
things we had done was to create a, a

01:16:17.989 --> 01:16:23.956
mock proposal for an unnamed donor to
name the business school. And I had

01:16:23.989 --> 01:16:28.147
that in my desk in the filing cabinet
to the left stuck there waiting for

01:16:28.180 --> 01:16:33.887
the day when it actually had to be uh,
kind of completed for somebody not

01:16:33.920 --> 01:16:38.177
knowing who that somebody was. So, so
we always had our eye on who that

01:16:38.210 --> 01:16:43.006
somebody could be. And Bill Carey was
one of those people. What I realized

01:16:43.039 --> 01:16:46.086
though along the way. And this goes
back to what we were trying to do from

01:16:46.119 --> 01:16:49.946
the earliest days of the business
school is that Bill did not see the

01:16:49.979 --> 01:16:55.937
university nor the business school as
having the prestige that he expected

01:16:55.970 --> 01:16:59.616
out of a good university and a good
business school. I mean, he hired

01:16:59.649 --> 01:17:04.406
students from Princeton and warden.
Uh, he hired kids who came from what

01:17:04.439 --> 01:17:08.057
were considered and still are
considered the more prestigious schools in

01:17:08.090 --> 01:17:12.887
the country. That was Bill Kerry's
approach and that's what he did. And he

01:17:12.920 --> 01:17:17.347
had a very good employees whom I met
and I got to know them one of the

01:17:17.380 --> 01:17:21.097
things and this goes back to the, to
the role of the undergraduate program

01:17:21.130 --> 01:17:25.147
and what we did with the undergraduate
program and improving it. I said,

01:17:25.180 --> 01:17:28.477
well Bill, why don't you hear some of
our undergraduates as summer interns

01:17:28.510 --> 01:17:30.487
?

01:17:30.520 --> 01:17:34.656
And he was resistant. And we came back
to that over and over. What

01:17:34.689 --> 01:17:38.967
ultimately we did was to orchestrate
Bill coming to campus, sitting in the

01:17:39.000 --> 01:17:44.416
dean's conference room interviewing
undergraduate students, mostly out of

01:17:44.449 --> 01:17:49.076
our honors undergraduate business
program. And I recall still Bill telling

01:17:49.109 --> 01:17:54.376
me lyrics, they're as good as the
Princeton once didn't I tell you that we

01:17:54.409 --> 01:17:57.927
have really good young people here. We
have a high quality undergraduate

01:17:57.960 --> 01:18:03.666
program. It educates people well. He
ultimately hired some interns. If

01:18:03.699 --> 01:18:09.057
there was one thing that I think may
have been most important to getting

01:18:09.090 --> 01:18:14.147
Bill Carey to the table to name the
business school, it was that set of

01:18:14.180 --> 01:18:20.696
interviews, it was the sense that he
developed that we may not have the

01:18:20.729 --> 01:18:25.217
name of Princeton or Harvard. But when
it comes to the quality of what we

01:18:25.250 --> 01:18:28.706
do in the classroom, when it comes to
the quality of the program that we

01:18:28.739 --> 01:18:34.557
have at Arizona State University, it
stood up equal with what he was

01:18:34.590 --> 01:18:40.217
seeing on the East coast, uh, that led
us and Mark Weiss, our development

01:18:40.250 --> 01:18:45.647
officer at that time is critical to
this. Mark was the development person

01:18:45.680 --> 01:18:50.196
in charge of development. Mark had
gotten to know Reggie Wynns singer very

01:18:50.229 --> 01:18:55.217
well. Uh, he had talked to Reggie
about whether indeed Bill might be ready

01:18:55.250 --> 01:19:01.456
to name the college and Mark had
concluded rightfully or wrongfully. Uh,

01:19:01.489 --> 01:19:06.107
he had inferred that it was the time.
Uh, and so Mark said, Larry, I think

01:19:06.140 --> 01:19:12.246
you're, you should be ready to do
this. I let Latino that I was going to

01:19:12.279 --> 01:19:18.277
do this. The president, I had Bill in
my office and I asked him, I said

01:19:18.310 --> 01:19:23.156
Bill, what we'd like you to do is to
name the business school. Um, and he

01:19:23.189 --> 01:19:29.496
didn't say no, he didn't say yes. By
the way, this was in the summer, well

01:19:29.529 --> 01:19:33.756
before Laddie retired. So this was in,
this was a day before the

01:19:33.789 --> 01:19:40.006
graduation ceremony in May. Uh, so we
were well ahead of, of Larry's

01:19:40.039 --> 01:19:46.116
leaving. Larry got a media involved in
calling Bill Carey and talking to

01:19:46.149 --> 01:19:52.217
Bill and encouraging Bill Laddie then
retired on June 30 and Michael Crowe

01:19:52.250 --> 01:19:57.946
became the President. Michael went to
visit bill in his office in New York.

01:19:57.979 --> 01:20:03.557
Michael was invited to speak prior to
his becoming the president at the

01:20:03.590 --> 01:20:11.590
major event that Bill held in London
that Yolanda and I intended and Bill

01:20:11.710 --> 01:20:16.406
in a sense, as he looked at the
transition from Laddie to Michael

01:20:16.439 --> 01:20:21.076
concluded that this was a place he
could bet on and he could invest. And

01:20:21.109 --> 01:20:26.576
then we began from june through well
into the fall, a long set of

01:20:26.609 --> 01:20:32.006
negotiations about what bill would
give, how he would give it with

01:20:32.039 --> 01:20:36.897
ultimately the positive decision. And
there were again many points at

01:20:36.930 --> 01:20:43.987
which I I was ready to say and did say
no, that won't work. We can't

01:20:44.020 --> 01:20:50.347
accept, we want to accept and knowing
that in saying that. And I sat in

01:20:50.380 --> 01:20:53.937
the garage, the foundation had moved
down Mill Avenue. At that point, I

01:20:53.970 --> 01:20:58.137
said it in the garage in the parking
lot outside the foundation office one

01:20:58.170 --> 01:21:02.677
day talking to one of the assistants
in Bill's office,

01:21:02.710 --> 01:21:08.097
essentially saying it's over with it's
clear to me that Bill is not ready

01:21:08.130 --> 01:21:14.717
to do what we'd hoped he would do. I
think he will be basically stopping

01:21:14.750 --> 01:21:22.750
this uh at the they came back and of
course ultimately We did receive the

01:21:23.170 --> 01:21:27.927
very substantial $50 million dollar
donation. We were as billet hoped for

01:21:27.960 --> 01:21:34.126
, recognized among the top 25 business
schools in the country and students

01:21:34.159 --> 01:21:42.159
are extraordinarily proud to be W. P.
Carey graduates today

01:21:42.310 --> 01:21:49.977
when people think back on the tenure
of Larry Penley as dean of the

01:21:50.010 --> 01:21:56.546
business school here, what would you
like them to think of as as the main

01:21:56.579 --> 01:21:59.177
accomplishment?

01:21:59.210 --> 01:22:02.267
That capsule representation

01:22:02.300 --> 01:22:06.987
of your accomplishment. It's a tough
question. It's a tough question

01:22:07.020 --> 01:22:12.006
because there are a number of things
that that made me very proud about

01:22:12.039 --> 01:22:16.296
the W. P. Carey school of Business in
Arizona State University. But I

01:22:16.329 --> 01:22:19.967
guess here's what I'd like for them to
remember.

01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:28.000
We built a trajectory a very positive
trajectory of national prominence.

01:22:28.199 --> 01:22:34.967
National recognition, built on quality
of the education and research from

01:22:35.000 --> 01:22:40.027
that school of business. Oh they're
obviously it was much more to be done.

01:22:40.060 --> 01:22:45.876
There is much more to be done. But we
we we put us on a trajectory that I

01:22:45.909 --> 01:22:51.366
think really hasn't mattered. That may
be the most important thing. No I

01:22:51.399 --> 01:22:55.296
don't think it is. I think there are a
couple of other things. I think

01:22:55.329 --> 01:23:01.437
this engagement with the business
community in a very real sense. I mean

01:23:01.470 --> 01:23:05.326
we're a professional schools were a
business school, we have a

01:23:05.359 --> 01:23:11.567
responsibility to serve of that
community. Uh That level of engagement is

01:23:11.600 --> 01:23:15.767
something I'm very proud of. I'm also
proud of what we did from the point

01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:19.027
of view of globalization and from the
point of view of information

01:23:19.060 --> 01:23:24.107
technology and instructional design.
But but in the end and this was where

01:23:24.140 --> 01:23:29.496
I was headed. I think the thing that
I'm most proud of is what students

01:23:29.529 --> 01:23:34.756
say and how they feel about the school
of business. You'll hear a young

01:23:34.789 --> 01:23:40.076
person talk about being a W. P. Carey
student about graduating from the W

01:23:40.109 --> 01:23:46.446
. P. Carey school and they say that
with pride there was a point in the

01:23:46.479 --> 01:23:52.006
NBA program and you probably
orchestrated this for all I know when the NBA

01:23:52.039 --> 01:23:56.206
students in one of the events that was
created by you where we were

01:23:56.239 --> 01:24:01.786
recognizing students and having the,
uh, those very fun, theatrical events

01:24:01.819 --> 01:24:06.196
that make fun of faculty and students
and all of us at the dinner at

01:24:06.229 --> 01:24:10.737
graduation when some of the NBA
students gave me a silly little trophy

01:24:10.770 --> 01:24:15.786
called the penalty Lifetime
Achievement Award. Um, I have always been as

01:24:15.819 --> 01:24:21.187
proud of that silly little cheap
trophy as I am a VIDi award I ever

01:24:21.220 --> 01:24:27.286
received. And the reason has to do
with just what I was saying. Clearly,

01:24:27.319 --> 01:24:34.057
the students felt like they got value
out of the degree program. And if

01:24:34.090 --> 01:24:38.659
there's anything, I think that matters
that matter.