WEBVTT 00:00:03.339 --> 00:00:05.339 This is december four 2009. We are at the Fulton built building at the 00:00:12.789 --> 00:00:19.456 Arizona State University campus. I am ted Humphrey and I'm interviewing uh 00:00:19.489 --> 00:00:24.837 Professor Jack Kinzinger. Uh This is a living history video project to 00:00:24.870 --> 00:00:30.967 help us establish um an oral history of the development of Arizona State 00:00:31.000 --> 00:00:37.307 University as a university 00:00:37.340 --> 00:00:45.340 Jack to begin with. Would you give us a sense of your childhood and your 00:00:45.820 --> 00:00:51.747 educational development and your early career? Yes, I was born and what 00:00:51.780 --> 00:00:57.097 stone is the midwestern rust belt these days in Akron Ohio, it's a city 00:00:57.130 --> 00:01:01.417 that would have a very big industries. All three of the major big river 00:01:01.450 --> 00:01:06.507 plants were there. And so I grew up in a manufacturing town, so to speak. 00:01:06.540 --> 00:01:12.406 I left Akron to go to service. I applied as a cadet to the Air Force, 00:01:12.439 --> 00:01:20.439 became accepted at the beginning of World War two and became a navigator 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:26.087 As at 19 years old was a second lieutenant in the Air Force and the fluid 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:31.656 B 29 which was a new airplane for period of time. So I did that for about 00:01:31.689 --> 00:01:38.326 a year, year and a half, two years. The war ended, I went to Hiram College 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:42.757 which was close to Akron and the place where my brother had gone to 00:01:42.790 --> 00:01:47.876 college. Um, and completed my bachelor's degree there. Now I had a little 00:01:47.909 --> 00:01:52.617 unusual Bachelor's degree. I had two majors, chemistry major and 00:01:52.650 --> 00:01:58.706 mathematics major and that was both good for me and bad for me and left me 00:01:58.739 --> 00:02:05.406 with not as much chemistry as I should have had Cornell for my next degree 00:02:05.439 --> 00:02:10.927 because the competition was extraordinarily tough in that institution. In 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:17.936 any case I finished the Masters head Cornell and that master as I worked 00:02:17.969 --> 00:02:24.527 with what later became a nobel prize winner who was paul j Flory who was a 00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:30.536 famous name in the physical chemistry of large molecules and somebody I 00:02:30.569 --> 00:02:35.587 admired and as a matter of fact I learned a lot from him, he was a genius 00:02:35.620 --> 00:02:39.997 and I began to understand the difference between me and 00:02:40.030 --> 00:02:46.136 there is such a, there is such a group and then I left Cornell and came 00:02:46.169 --> 00:02:52.846 and worked in the industry at roman hose company in philadelphia 34 years 00:02:52.879 --> 00:02:56.927 and at that time I competed with phds and thought it would be a good idea 00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:01.427 if I just go ahead and complete my PhD and the roman haas company was very 00:03:01.460 --> 00:03:07.106 , very nice too, allow me to go to penn at the time. So I finished my PhD 00:03:07.139 --> 00:03:13.237 in here in the head a pen and then came to at that point to michigan state 00:03:13.270 --> 00:03:21.270 at first day as an assistant professor 50 1958. And it was 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:28.297 the first person in that institution to be promoted to associate professor 00:03:28.330 --> 00:03:33.596 in less than six years. Actually promoted up in four years, breaking a 00:03:33.629 --> 00:03:38.566 long term president in our college. And just a few years later I became 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:45.166 the associate chairman by acclimation of the faculty and within two years 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:50.497 I became the chairman of Chemistry, what was beneficial for me was at the 00:03:50.530 --> 00:03:57.106 time I became chairman. I wrote uh for a proposal for part of an 00:03:57.139 --> 00:04:01.946 institutional proposal for my Physics, math and Chemistry to become what 00:04:01.979 --> 00:04:07.017 it was called by the National Science Foundation Centers of Excellence and 00:04:07.050 --> 00:04:12.416 we did win an award. So as chairman, I had a million dollars extra per 00:04:12.449 --> 00:04:17.457 year, my department, which lasted for three years and we got the only 00:04:17.490 --> 00:04:24.246 renewal of our program, the campus. So it was a very, very big boost and 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:31.147 it placed in me and under a clear understanding of where the quality of 00:04:31.180 --> 00:04:35.277 the university is, it's in the departments and that if you have a good 00:04:35.310 --> 00:04:40.546 chairman it works well with the faculty, you can move that department, 00:04:40.579 --> 00:04:47.606 move it up. Bye. Getting additional new people and by raising standards 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:53.137 within the institution. My next experience was before I left to become the 00:04:53.170 --> 00:04:57.317 Director of Chemistry at the National Science Foundation, the Physics 00:04:57.350 --> 00:05:03.046 department asked me if I would be their chairman and I said, do you mean 00:05:03.079 --> 00:05:07.856 both of chemistry and Physics? They said no, we want you to be our 00:05:07.889 --> 00:05:13.507 chairman. Well that again, a sort of unprecedented for somebody from one 00:05:13.540 --> 00:05:17.846 field of endeavor to be asked to come into another field and do that, but 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.856 that had to do with the quality of what was going on in my chemistry 00:05:21.889 --> 00:05:27.457 department. Any case I did get this national recognition 00:05:27.490 --> 00:05:33.507 by being appointed as the director, the Chemistry division. I don't know 00:05:33.540 --> 00:05:36.877 the National Science Foundation. I moved down there a period about a year 00:05:36.910 --> 00:05:42.757 and a half and that experience was very, very big time experience because 00:05:42.790 --> 00:05:47.767 there I met the top of the line in all the institutions around the United 00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:53.967 States and understood what the highest quality research was, understood, 00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:58.277 how that research has done, understood how its proposed, understood how 00:05:58.310 --> 00:06:03.387 the money was handed out to the institutions and understood why some 00:06:03.420 --> 00:06:09.236 institutions been better than others. So that was a very big learning 00:06:09.269 --> 00:06:14.556 experience for me to put my name into the Nationals, what would call 00:06:14.589 --> 00:06:17.606 registered? 00:06:17.639 --> 00:06:23.017 Um at the time I left the National Science Foundation Carnegie Mellon 00:06:23.050 --> 00:06:29.046 asked me to come to be Dean of their Arts and Sciences program and I very 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:32.806 seriously considered that, but in the long run decided to go back to 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:37.317 michigan state and there I was appointed as the system, the vice President 00:06:37.350 --> 00:06:45.350 for Research. And within just a few months I became associate provost. And 00:06:46.139 --> 00:06:51.827 then uh and I enjoyed that position because the provost became with our 00:06:51.860 --> 00:06:56.137 new president at that time, the shadow president, doing mostly 00:06:56.170 --> 00:06:58.906 presidential 00:06:58.939 --> 00:07:03.976 duties and the provost's duties were turned over to me and I learned how 00:07:04.009 --> 00:07:11.806 to be a provost. The full promo poster Sure Vice president in that job. 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:14.967 In any case, the history of being here is very important. I have to tell 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:21.837 you as I was in the National Science Foundation, one of my duties was to 00:07:21.870 --> 00:07:26.366 come out to the universities that visit their chemistry requirement. Tell 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:29.656 them about the National Science Foundation and to tell them what's going 00:07:29.689 --> 00:07:35.397 on in the field. Well, I came to msu when I walked on this campus in that 00:07:35.430 --> 00:07:42.717 year, that was probably about 19 80, somewhere around there, I thought 00:07:42.750 --> 00:07:48.087 this was such a beautiful place and I visited around to several 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:52.887 departments and I went down to view of a and I said to myself, boy, I love 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:55.187 the 00:07:55.220 --> 00:07:59.707 and then I said if these guys can be dean's here, I surely can't get a job 00:07:59.740 --> 00:08:05.166 as a dean. So I when the, when the position came open to be vice president 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:11.916 , I made a determination to go after to really go after that position 00:08:11.949 --> 00:08:17.656 because I really wanted to come here. And so I did that. My too big people 00:08:17.689 --> 00:08:21.707 that backed me for this job was the nobel prize winner paul Flory. And 00:08:21.740 --> 00:08:27.507 then the man who ran, he was head of the National Science Dick Atkinson, 00:08:27.540 --> 00:08:30.616 who was it that later than the president of the University of California 00:08:30.649 --> 00:08:36.707 system, a psychologist, you may know him no love him. So those two people 00:08:36.740 --> 00:08:39.746 were nationally recognized and I think he had a lot to do with me getting 00:08:39.779 --> 00:08:46.407 the job. Now you said you came as vice president, I thought you came as 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:51.256 provost. Did you know that's always, that's always an issue between the 00:08:51.289 --> 00:08:58.827 president and and the vice president or provost. The concept. When I came 00:08:58.860 --> 00:09:03.697 in, my course was working with Russ nelson, Russ nelson's preference was 00:09:03.730 --> 00:09:09.057 not to have a provost. That was his because he was not used to that 00:09:09.090 --> 00:09:14.146 because he came from a large system in which he was there, he ran for 00:09:14.179 --> 00:09:17.476 president and he was not present, but he was the president or chief 00:09:17.509 --> 00:09:22.606 executive officer of the University of Colorado. So when he came here, his 00:09:22.639 --> 00:09:27.327 concept of the protest, he didn't want to do, uh in addition to that, he 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:33.106 was not anxious to create the vice president for research, but he did 00:09:33.139 --> 00:09:37.256 create it after I was here for a little while and after I left the 00:09:37.289 --> 00:09:41.596 province position was created because the deans and others wanted it In 00:09:41.629 --> 00:09:46.577 the worst way they wanted the pros to be quote 2nd in command and clear 00:09:46.610 --> 00:09:51.366 separation of. And so that was what happened after that. Did you have a 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:56.356 faculty appointment as well? 00:09:56.389 --> 00:10:01.217 Yeah. And did you have a research program when you came or had you, did 00:10:01.250 --> 00:10:07.717 you have to decide to set that aside. I set that aside, pretty much in my 00:10:07.750 --> 00:10:13.506 2nd and 3rd years associate program at michigan state because I recognized 00:10:13.539 --> 00:10:18.537 that the demands of those jobs would not let me deal with graduate 00:10:18.570 --> 00:10:23.236 students the way I like to be in the way I had to nurture them through. So 00:10:23.269 --> 00:10:28.366 I had my last graduate students PhD graduate, maybe a year before I came 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:34.067 down here. So when I came here, I did not, 00:10:34.100 --> 00:10:41.106 What do you believe were the reasons why it was precisely you at that time 00:10:41.139 --> 00:10:46.417 who was appointed vice president? Was it your region? Well, I think again 00:10:46.450 --> 00:10:49.957 , I had that combination. What what did they issue needed the time? Well, 00:10:49.990 --> 00:10:55.506 it had emerged out of being a teachers college, it was always in the 00:10:55.539 --> 00:11:00.807 shadow of your day and 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:05.197 I was getting larger. There was no question about that. From my own 00:11:05.230 --> 00:11:10.047 perspective, I could see that there were some huge to be huge urban 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:15.577 institutions being surrounded by large populations and large manufacturing 00:11:15.610 --> 00:11:20.547 and all kinds of other activities that would need these universities and 00:11:20.580 --> 00:11:27.327 that's pretty much happen. So to me, I could see that issues in a 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:32.126 transition. It had to go the next step. The next step was to be moved from 00:11:32.159 --> 00:11:36.886 what was called a comprehensive university with limited PhD programs, 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:41.496 mostly undergraduate work, mostly undergraduate students. And move up that 00:11:41.529 --> 00:11:46.876 next step to a comprehensive university at advanced degrees PhD degrees 00:11:46.909 --> 00:11:53.096 and began the experience of developing research as a, as a big adjunct to 00:11:53.129 --> 00:11:57.707 the, to the institution. So I have been through that, but then I should 00:11:57.740 --> 00:12:01.376 and I have watched that happen there and helped create. So it became a 00:12:01.409 --> 00:12:04.907 natural for me to want to come. 00:12:04.940 --> 00:12:11.376 There's always a delicate uh negotiation that goes on when uh one comes 00:12:11.409 --> 00:12:16.006 into the kind of position that you assumed here and I'd like you to talk a 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:21.366 little bit about the negotiations that you and Russ carried out how you 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:24.486 establish your goals? 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:30.817 I think that's a very bad because when when you're going to consider to 00:12:30.850 --> 00:12:36.297 take a job like this, it's not just another job, You have the 00:12:36.330 --> 00:12:42.057 responsibility for a lot of people and a big institution and you two are 00:12:42.090 --> 00:12:47.917 going to do this together. First of all, Russ immediately let me know this 00:12:47.950 --> 00:12:53.907 would be a team effort. And I was it was it was definitely that he and I 00:12:53.940 --> 00:12:57.917 always had a very poor which permitted me and I always discussed 00:12:57.950 --> 00:13:03.037 everything I was interested in with him. It was an excellent choice for me 00:13:03.070 --> 00:13:08.837 and for him to do this. Now the way it happened was he taught me something 00:13:08.870 --> 00:13:11.996 else. I didn't know when you're looking for a president or provost at that 00:13:12.029 --> 00:13:17.146 level. You better go to the campus where that person is serving and you 00:13:17.179 --> 00:13:20.787 know, walk around and ask people how that person is, what kind of 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:25.557 personality they have because things somehow in the process of hiring 00:13:25.590 --> 00:13:29.707 doesn't get said many times. So he came and he said, well now Russ, what 00:13:29.740 --> 00:13:33.636 is it you want from me? I'm looking right now said, what exactly do you 00:13:33.669 --> 00:13:38.126 want from me? He said, well I want you to deliver me the faculty and the 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:43.837 deeds. I said, what is that? I said, what is that? What is it? He said, 00:13:43.870 --> 00:13:47.646 well you your responsibility will be to deal with the fact that so of 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:52.157 course it is. That's what the vice president does. I said, but what is he 00:13:52.190 --> 00:13:57.077 said, well, I don't want to spend my time interceding. What I want you to 00:13:57.110 --> 00:14:01.437 do is to handle that problem and to do it. And he said, the deans are 00:14:01.470 --> 00:14:05.776 another level in the administrators in the institution and they're very 00:14:05.809 --> 00:14:09.276 important. And when they get arrested, they come up and talk to the 00:14:09.309 --> 00:14:14.726 president. So I said, well, basically then what you're asking me to do is 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:19.096 to develop the faculty, develop a rapport with the faculty and get the 00:14:19.129 --> 00:14:23.567 institution to organize and become a real university, you see, Yeah, 00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:27.346 that's the sort of thing. The title and the deans, I said, I gotta tell 00:14:27.379 --> 00:14:32.787 you right now we need some changes. And if you're not interested in making 00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:37.746 those changes, then uh, we'll have some difficulty. So he said, I agree 00:14:37.779 --> 00:14:44.356 with you. So we knew what I knew what he expected of me. And then I came 00:14:44.389 --> 00:14:49.236 in and did what was expected me and I knew I had to be done here to make 00:14:49.269 --> 00:14:54.407 the big change. Okay. So that was part of the program I came in with and 00:14:54.440 --> 00:14:59.016 one day he came to me and he said, how would you like to have a campus on 00:14:59.049 --> 00:15:03.006 the west side? 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.807 Well, you know, can we do that? And I said, well, yeah, we didn't do that. 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:12.067 And I said immediately we need to do that now. There's a reason for why 00:15:12.100 --> 00:15:18.687 we needed to do that. The West side politicians. I had never supported a S. 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:25.967 U. For this issue of equality or equity. We thought if we would put the 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:30.386 campus over there, we'd have a much stronger the advantage and we did in 00:15:30.419 --> 00:15:35.256 the long run. And I think the west campus has been successful. Maybe it's 00:15:35.289 --> 00:15:39.256 made the institution grow a little different and so forth. And I was my 00:15:39.289 --> 00:15:44.496 suggestion to put jerry McSheffrey, It's the first provost over there. So 00:15:44.529 --> 00:15:48.197 um that was, that came about during my period and it was page Mulholland 00:15:48.230 --> 00:15:53.337 who developed the plans for the campus, not the academic plans, but the 00:15:53.370 --> 00:16:00.707 building plans. And that worked out to me really good. 00:16:00.740 --> 00:16:06.577 We were entering this, they transferred information and communications 00:16:06.610 --> 00:16:12.917 through the Pcs. That was just, it was starting to flow into universities 00:16:12.950 --> 00:16:18.876 of late 70s, early 80's and one day I went to rest and I said, Russ, we've 00:16:18.909 --> 00:16:24.616 got to put a pc in everybody's office. He says, you know, we do, He says, 00:16:24.649 --> 00:16:28.307 Okay, Jack, I'll give you $1 million, let's do something. I said no, I 00:16:28.340 --> 00:16:32.067 know he's giving me my million dollars, 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:37.197 we're gonna million dollars, but it was right to do so I had this 00:16:37.230 --> 00:16:41.146 wonderful opportunity just wonderful. I was just frothing at the mouth to 00:16:41.179 --> 00:16:46.297 do this. We brought the people down from IBM including the scientists that 00:16:46.330 --> 00:16:53.457 was almost directly responsible for producing their PC. And the IBM people 00:16:53.490 --> 00:16:58.736 gave us a pretty large craft that I set up a central system too where 00:16:58.769 --> 00:17:03.146 people could go into and either get training or use a computer. But the 00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:07.576 big trick was to get it out into the humanities and other places where uh 00:17:07.609 --> 00:17:11.457 the sciences didn't worry about it because they all use computer. So we 00:17:11.490 --> 00:17:16.306 did this and I did it by creating a proposal. I made each department to 00:17:16.339 --> 00:17:20.076 create a proposal how they would bring these in and use them in their 00:17:20.109 --> 00:17:24.476 department. And we got some very good proposals and someone unusual 00:17:24.509 --> 00:17:28.147 proposal. But eventually within a couple of three years, I think I had 00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:32.496 computers in all of the departments or less. And it was clear to me what 00:17:32.529 --> 00:17:37.326 they would do. They would start writing their papers with his computer. 00:17:37.359 --> 00:17:41.707 They would use it as a, it's a fancy typewriter. They weren't going to do 00:17:41.740 --> 00:17:45.157 computational research or any type, although it probably boosted 00:17:45.190 --> 00:17:49.986 statistical research and a lot of like education and so forth. They did 00:17:50.019 --> 00:17:53.546 that kind of research. So that worked out in my view very well. I was very 00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:57.127 pleased with it. And the big surprise that I got the very big surprises. 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:01.766 We could not teach the faculty how to operate this computer in the central 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:06.016 system. They would learn from their graduate students. They would go into 00:18:06.049 --> 00:18:09.387 a closet with a graduate students and the graduate students would show 00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:13.677 them what to do and they felt good about that, but they would not go over 00:18:13.710 --> 00:18:18.147 to the central system with our instructors that were there. So that, that 00:18:18.180 --> 00:18:22.607 I don't know how long that lasted on campus because it needed to evolve, 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:27.056 but it was the opening guns and I think it was, I think we did it fairly 00:18:27.089 --> 00:18:31.357 early in the game, I think it was a nice boost in the game and I think 00:18:31.390 --> 00:18:36.197 that helped us enormously. So that was a nice thing. Incidentally, it's 00:18:36.230 --> 00:18:41.546 now the undergraduates, I believe, I believe, and I just came from 00:18:41.579 --> 00:18:47.746 listening to a guru in the computer business, talk about the future and 00:18:47.779 --> 00:18:52.796 he's absolutely right in some ways, but wrong in other ways, that's gonna 00:18:52.829 --> 00:18:56.566 be the new communications and you're absolutely right. The young people 00:18:56.599 --> 00:19:02.576 are already doing things with small devices, but also with wifi, it's all 00:19:02.609 --> 00:19:06.207 changing so rapidly and the faculty, somebody aren't keeping up with. Now 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:11.127 , the problem is that these gurus are from that industry, keep telling us 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:15.556 as educators, well, you can do this and you can do that and I said to 00:19:15.589 --> 00:19:19.897 myself, but you're not moving any new knowledge, you're just moving 00:19:19.930 --> 00:19:25.006 knowledge around and packaging, well, that may be in the books will go or 00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:27.607 something like that, but that's not creating new knowledge that's just 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:31.516 creating what I call a nice package so you can learn faster and that's 00:19:31.549 --> 00:19:35.137 what the students can do now. They're very good at pulling things together 00:19:35.170 --> 00:19:39.586 , putting together and get on the internet and get stuff for their papers 00:19:39.619 --> 00:19:43.387 and there's some tricks to that to which manufacturers don't know. But how 00:19:43.420 --> 00:19:48.986 we use it to enhance the overall education is still, but it's coming. Well 00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:51.996 , I think we're learning, we're learning and it's coming. I mean, there's 00:19:52.029 --> 00:19:56.157 no question in my mind is coming And I'll tell you, I just got my first MP 00:19:56.190 --> 00:20:01.907 three. So 00:20:01.940 --> 00:20:08.036 what do you remember as the really large challenges that you faced 00:20:08.069 --> 00:20:15.637 economic? Yeah. I had some killers. one killer ahead was a disgruntled 00:20:15.670 --> 00:20:22.887 number of people here who I think had been treated very poorly. Not not 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:28.066 nicely, but very poorly. And there were about 25 of them and I arrived on 00:20:28.099 --> 00:20:31.506 the campus when I left, there was zero. 00:20:31.539 --> 00:20:36.006 Now there may be some disgruntlement from me, but I did take care of that 00:20:36.039 --> 00:20:40.907 group. Now, what are you talking about faculty from that period? When we 00:20:40.940 --> 00:20:47.516 Changed the rules for 10 years? Yes. All of it had to do with tenure and 00:20:47.549 --> 00:20:54.266 promotion. Almost all not, not much with hiring. And and then again, you 00:20:54.299 --> 00:20:58.526 have essentially a little campus 00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:05.556 came in and told Russ under me that will change. I had committed myself to 00:21:05.589 --> 00:21:12.107 diversity and for very good reason and and I did that I managed to do that 00:21:12.140 --> 00:21:16.717 both with women. I came here and found an enormously bright group of women 00:21:16.750 --> 00:21:22.336 , they were already here. But they had no positions of authority. I think 00:21:22.369 --> 00:21:27.336 when I left there more than a dozen department chairs at that point, maybe 00:21:27.369 --> 00:21:34.266 more. It took time to do that. But so I needed to release that. I I had to 00:21:34.299 --> 00:21:38.316 get that intelligence to be released to get in the right slots because 00:21:38.349 --> 00:21:41.707 they would be the builders of the institution. See, And that was the 00:21:41.740 --> 00:21:46.597 challenge. And I think that challenge went pretty well for me because of 00:21:46.630 --> 00:21:50.147 how I did it. And because of the beans I brought in and I always laid down 00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:54.976 the ground rules for each higher than I did. I made some mistakes and in 00:21:55.009 --> 00:21:59.607 terms of and some people left. But on the whole, I think it raised the 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:05.336 quality. So that was one the diversity and then taking care of this 00:22:05.369 --> 00:22:10.687 faculty grievance procedure. I put in a new grievance procedure. We went 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:14.427 through the provinces, They worked out, we found a way to resolve the 00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:21.877 nasty problems and people remained fairly happy targets of opportunity, 00:22:21.910 --> 00:22:27.347 targets of opportunity was to give me the chance. They give me the chance 00:22:27.380 --> 00:22:32.347 of locating the money when I heard a good thing. So that really did work 00:22:32.380 --> 00:22:36.697 and it was to go out and get the best faculty of fine and also to build 00:22:36.730 --> 00:22:41.407 the diversity in the institution. So that's right. So I remember that 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:46.127 incidentally, I brought in the first two and probably the only two african 00:22:46.160 --> 00:22:48.806 american deeds, 00:22:48.839 --> 00:22:56.726 I guess, uh, Gladys and uh, Jessie McClure socialism. I don't think 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.816 there's been any since then. I'm very proud of that because they both 00:23:00.849 --> 00:23:05.217 managed their departments better than had been done and did well for the 00:23:05.250 --> 00:23:10.197 institution, Jessie McClure, I think is in Vanderbilt now. And of course 00:23:10.230 --> 00:23:16.296 Gladys is is what moved up to be the chancellor of the university. So that 00:23:16.329 --> 00:23:20.996 was a big issue for me was diversity and Russ bought into my views on that 00:23:21.029 --> 00:23:26.207 because they were his views and that made it easy for me and it made it 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:30.347 pleasant for me to deal with the hispanic population here. And also with 00:23:30.380 --> 00:23:34.026 the african americans here. So that was, that was a nice feature thing. 00:23:34.059 --> 00:23:38.467 But there was also the women and the women here, as I told you were 00:23:38.500 --> 00:23:43.417 excellent. There was a very good crowd of women and so I had many meetings 00:23:43.450 --> 00:23:47.786 with them and try to get them opportunities within the institutional and 00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:52.316 to bring in someone brought in. So that happened to and that left feeling 00:23:52.349 --> 00:23:58.107 very, very good about that aspect of it. And so I was able to view the, 00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:04.607 create the diversity and inch up at the same time. 00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:10.006 But Maricopa County had one of the best community college systems in the 00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:13.637 United States and there was no joke about that even when I was here. So we 00:24:13.670 --> 00:24:18.476 had this wonderful community college system and we had problems with the 00:24:18.509 --> 00:24:22.806 students leaving that system and coming into our system. So I got together 00:24:22.839 --> 00:24:29.397 with provost over and uh community college system Alfredo and we created 00:24:29.430 --> 00:24:36.397 this program to make transformation. It was seamless and we did it. And 00:24:36.430 --> 00:24:40.357 one of the big things we did and it really worked for us. We had the 00:24:40.390 --> 00:24:44.766 faculties for say in the business college would sit in with the business 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.576 faculty at the community college and the community college would send a 00:24:48.609 --> 00:24:52.457 faculty member over to sit in faculty meetings at the business school. 00:24:52.490 --> 00:24:57.377 That way we stop this bind between, is this my course or your course, 00:24:57.410 --> 00:25:02.927 which we're gonna teach. So we got this seamless. The relationship between 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:05.336 the community colleges and universities. I don't know how it's worked out 00:25:05.369 --> 00:25:09.576 . I guess. It's still good. It's very good. It's very good. I found also 00:25:09.609 --> 00:25:13.836 that there were older women going to Layton when I was here, there was 00:25:13.869 --> 00:25:19.607 older women going to the community colleges that was afraid to come out of 00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:24.516 the big university and we set up a program to guide them in here and get 00:25:24.549 --> 00:25:29.006 them to come in and finish their degrees here. I was also proud of the 00:25:29.039 --> 00:25:33.177 fact that we had several women that got phds in their sixties while I was 00:25:33.210 --> 00:25:39.046 here. So we did. We were open enough to have that kind of anybody who 00:25:39.079 --> 00:25:43.036 could do it could do it if the department wanted to take him in, we'd let 00:25:43.069 --> 00:25:50.006 him take him in and I thought that was a big advantage here. 00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:54.147 Now, I'd like to put a point in here when I came to interview, this is 00:25:54.180 --> 00:26:01.006 very key. The Board of Regents had recently done something which I found 00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:03.107 abhorrent, 00:26:03.140 --> 00:26:07.167 they decided which of the institutions would have, which departments of 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:14.336 excellence. And I first question I got is as a candidate, what are you 00:26:14.369 --> 00:26:18.036 going to do about my department? We have good people and we're not on 00:26:18.069 --> 00:26:25.427 accident. That was that was a valid question. It was a it was a trauma. It 00:26:25.460 --> 00:26:32.107 was trauma because the question is why would they do it? And who had the 00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:35.937 the knowledge base to create it in the first place. And how are they going 00:26:35.970 --> 00:26:41.076 to test it or keeping well in the long run? I gave it up, give it to say 00:26:41.109 --> 00:26:45.967 several years after. Right. But I went back to michigan state and I said, 00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:49.756 I told these people that I met the faculty here, I said when I come back, 00:26:49.789 --> 00:26:53.826 if I get this job I will tell you what I'm going to do about. So I went to 00:26:53.859 --> 00:26:57.457 michigan back to michigan state and I asked myself which departments were 00:26:57.490 --> 00:27:02.326 the greatest departments we had on the campus. And lo and behold when I 00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:06.586 did that analysis on my own, it was all the departments with the strong 00:27:06.619 --> 00:27:11.486 chairman had little to do with doctors. It didn't have a lot to do with 00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:16.306 those who got the most money. It had to do who had the strongest chairman 00:27:16.339 --> 00:27:20.107 because the chairman was the leader. If the chairman could work with the 00:27:20.140 --> 00:27:24.236 faculty that became a team and and we did have some departments at that 00:27:24.269 --> 00:27:29.536 point that we're ready to make that. Yes, you did have some and my job was 00:27:29.569 --> 00:27:35.597 to get push those as far as we can get them and to create that that whole 00:27:35.630 --> 00:27:41.607 desire and the remainder. And in fact we we had a pretty decent chemistry 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:44.457 department. Well as a matter of fact there was an outstanding department. 00:27:44.490 --> 00:27:48.677 That's why I came down from the NSF. Uh it and then why was an 00:27:48.710 --> 00:27:52.427 outstanding apartment because it picked theme and stuck with the theme of 00:27:52.460 --> 00:27:57.506 solid state chemistry and they were practically the only major chemistry 00:27:57.539 --> 00:28:01.397 department, United States that did solve state Chemistry. So Chemistry, 00:28:01.430 --> 00:28:05.607 yes was a strong department. It had research and that he was to research. 00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:08.357 Physics was pretty strong, there was a number of them. And then and then 00:28:08.390 --> 00:28:13.226 rolling the comparable. Mhm. 00:28:13.259 --> 00:28:17.766 Com and have boosted the engineering. Well that's true and you have this 00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:24.576 really quite remarkable administrator in morton who was exactly chemistry. 00:28:24.609 --> 00:28:29.806 Chemistry. He was he was my idea of a chairman that made that department. 00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:34.266 That's what makes a great university is to make great departments and he 00:28:34.299 --> 00:28:38.776 had that early and created that department that way. And when we had those 00:28:38.809 --> 00:28:42.976 strong chairman we generally have better departments and so along with 00:28:43.009 --> 00:28:47.516 chemistry. What were the, what were the really strong departments on? Well 00:28:47.549 --> 00:28:52.717 , I was especially pleased at the fine arts. I first of all, the art 00:28:52.750 --> 00:28:58.907 department was strong. It had some wonderful faculty. It should have been 00:28:58.940 --> 00:29:02.836 uh known better than it was. So I was pleased with that. I was pleased 00:29:02.869 --> 00:29:06.717 with the music department and the theater department. All of those. Uh To 00:29:06.750 --> 00:29:12.377 me it was great to have, we did not have that kind of fine fine arts in 00:29:12.410 --> 00:29:16.046 michigan state. But for me I always had an interest in the arts. I was 00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:21.647 pleased. We also have it here. My arrival that goes with the arts. A 00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:27.776 wonderful museum. Wonderful, great. The guy that was running that museum 00:29:27.809 --> 00:29:31.647 and a really great collection. So that was a nice piece. The engineering 00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:39.137 was strong. Uh Education was middle, middle strong, but had the potential 00:29:39.170 --> 00:29:46.486 to get strong rapidly which it did. And architecture was beginning to show 00:29:46.519 --> 00:29:51.427 some good movement. Was pleased with the architecture. Let's see what else 00:29:51.460 --> 00:29:57.056 I can think of. All the biochemistry was pretty good. Biological sciences 00:29:57.089 --> 00:30:01.407 weren't as strong as the physical sciences, but they were getting ready. 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:07.266 And so that's pretty much how I saw the campus now. Law was good. I had a 00:30:07.299 --> 00:30:11.306 decent reputation. 00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:18.967 You say you saw us as as ready to emerge as a comprehensive institute. But 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:25.246 what did you see our role to be here again? I gathered first this 00:30:25.279 --> 00:30:30.506 information about the Mountain States and Southwestern states in general. 00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:35.107 There was not what I would call a great institution in those states up 00:30:35.140 --> 00:30:40.266 until around maybe the early 80s. Now you might pick Colorado's high 00:30:40.299 --> 00:30:45.967 quality, high quality, but I never thought of it as I didn't either say it 00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:50.877 was an emerging university of Utah was starting. But other than that, 00:30:50.910 --> 00:30:55.697 that's about what you had in the, in the States here. Well, why is that? 00:30:55.730 --> 00:30:59.996 Well, that was because you didn't have the huge populations in these 00:31:00.029 --> 00:31:03.637 states, among other things nor the huge amount of manufacturing or the 00:31:03.670 --> 00:31:08.687 fiscal backup to really build a great university. I would say that the for 00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:13.536 what you did very well in its period. And so it had already been taken 00:31:13.569 --> 00:31:16.607 into 00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:22.786 That organizationally. Well, I think it's a, it's another into the famous 00:31:22.819 --> 00:31:25.526 35 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:32.476 but they didn't really Equal that 35 group very well. 00:31:32.509 --> 00:31:38.687 But they got in because of a huge Optics program which they had $400 00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:42.717 million. That's right. And that to me was not education, but it was 00:31:42.750 --> 00:31:46.917 research. It didn't have any high impact on education, but they had very 00:31:46.950 --> 00:31:51.177 high impact on national research because it was a nationally the thing 00:31:51.210 --> 00:31:57.336 that they're doing, dealing with astronomy and the fix that. So I felt the 00:31:57.369 --> 00:32:01.826 A. S. You being located here in this valley in the city which was 00:32:01.859 --> 00:32:07.717 progressing and progressing well that it would, it would emerge, it would 00:32:07.750 --> 00:32:13.097 not take long to merge. The only issue would be money and and some 00:32:13.130 --> 00:32:20.006 guidance is how to do this, some feeling amongst everybody, we can do this 00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:24.207 now the other part was 00:32:24.240 --> 00:32:27.107 trying to find 00:32:27.140 --> 00:32:32.756 no vehicles that is institutional vehicles or organization vehicles which 00:32:32.789 --> 00:32:38.566 will give us a lift and I knew we had that huge plot of land. How did 00:32:38.599 --> 00:32:44.486 Warner Road, which was the old egg, which was the old egg college. So I 00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:48.397 believe it was my suggestion that we turned that into a research mhm 00:32:48.430 --> 00:32:53.687 Development research, practical and we did. I'm almost positive. I wrote 00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:58.427 the original paper for that and that again was to give us a boost. Now how 00:32:58.460 --> 00:33:02.367 do you get that boost? Well long term boost. First of all you got to get 00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:07.107 people doing research out there and make a connection with the university 00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:10.506 now that took a couple of decades or a decade and a half to get it done 00:33:10.539 --> 00:33:14.697 well, but right now it's pumping money back to the institution and I knew 00:33:14.730 --> 00:33:20.147 it wasn't an overnight but it does consolidate and interface the two 00:33:20.180 --> 00:33:24.437 institutions and if you look in the last five or 10 years, what's going on 00:33:24.470 --> 00:33:29.127 and you can see the fruits of that seed being formed back and when we did 00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:35.197 that, the board gave us lots of hurdles, we had to do this and do that the 00:33:35.230 --> 00:33:40.107 u of a kind of came up with another probably because they wanted and they 00:33:40.140 --> 00:33:44.417 want to put on a mesa there and it was just, it just fell apart and it 00:33:44.450 --> 00:33:52.407 didn't work. So that was that was it a piece that I have a lot to do. 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:57.107 There was another thing which is a wonderful guy told me about and he and 00:33:57.140 --> 00:34:02.627 I agree. And it was Bill Seidman, I don't know if any of you remember Bill 00:34:02.660 --> 00:34:07.137 Seaman would not take the Dean's job. I did not hire him, but he would not 00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:13.396 take that Dean's job in business until he approved of me. So we were 00:34:13.429 --> 00:34:18.657 approved by us at the same time. Now, about a year after Bill was here, we 00:34:18.690 --> 00:34:23.506 had a long conversation and he said to me, well, Jack, the problem down 00:34:23.539 --> 00:34:30.436 here is we simply don't have enough intellectual density and I think it 00:34:30.469 --> 00:34:34.706 was hit the nail on the head. We have smart people, most of them retired. 00:34:34.739 --> 00:34:38.157 We had the good people within the industry. You've got a lot of good 00:34:38.190 --> 00:34:42.407 lawyers here and you had the Phoenix 40 which was running the show down 00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:46.947 here. All mostly local. Where was the Nationals? Where was the 00:34:46.980 --> 00:34:51.986 international? Well, phoenix was not a big fiscal town. It has not ever 00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:59.666 had a big, big banks and big, big fiscal, not like not like the East coast 00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:04.197 , not in Chicago, but now it's happened here. I mean it's happened 00:35:04.230 --> 00:35:09.137 gradually here. one of the places. I think it happens in the arts, The 00:35:09.170 --> 00:35:14.026 arts programs are very good here given size of city. And I think they're 00:35:14.059 --> 00:35:18.896 excellent. I'm very pleased to come back to that. And if you think about 00:35:18.929 --> 00:35:22.747 the other growth here, we didn't get into the heavy manufacturing. We got 00:35:22.780 --> 00:35:29.006 into the next new fan fracture, which is electronics. And that period 00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:31.967 built this institution. 00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:35.456 I mean, this city now we don't know where we're going next. But I think 00:35:35.489 --> 00:35:43.489 pro has an idea. I think he certainly has plans 00:35:43.940 --> 00:35:48.307 as academic vice president. 00:35:48.340 --> 00:35:54.756 Did you go out and begin to form the institution or did you wait to see 00:35:54.789 --> 00:36:01.057 who would come to you, uh, with plans? Well, actually, it's both, both 00:36:01.090 --> 00:36:06.697 things happen in a big institution like this. But I set out to quote, 00:36:06.730 --> 00:36:11.186 bring the Dean's with me to keep the beans with me and I had a tough first 00:36:11.219 --> 00:36:15.887 year. And the reason for that was they were getting arrested because they 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:20.896 could see changes coming and they were getting extremely restive about it. 00:36:20.929 --> 00:36:28.929 And so I had to meet separately with them off campus and I did that. And 00:36:30.230 --> 00:36:33.756 after we do 00:36:33.789 --> 00:36:36.597 know as a group 00:36:36.630 --> 00:36:40.557 and I said, look, here's what our issues are, here's what we have to do. 00:36:40.590 --> 00:36:43.986 Here's what I have to do now. You're gonna have to work with me. I'll 00:36:44.019 --> 00:36:48.186 work with you. We'll work together, we'll get this thing done. So I had 00:36:48.219 --> 00:36:51.706 some very good ones. I had some mediocre ones, but I needed to get some 00:36:51.739 --> 00:36:56.776 changes, especially in what you called style or for their own internal 00:36:56.809 --> 00:37:00.267 politics. I wanted to try to push that out of the university. If I could 00:37:00.300 --> 00:37:05.396 get it out. It's funny how that worked out. They settled down after that 00:37:05.429 --> 00:37:09.626 and whatever moves I made I made early and after that they could see that 00:37:09.659 --> 00:37:14.427 wouldn't happen furthermore. The new deals I brought in were immediately 00:37:14.460 --> 00:37:19.146 recognized as a higher color. Mm hmm. They all recognize it now. Yes, we 00:37:19.179 --> 00:37:23.657 are going to make some changes. It's an interesting feature of a issue, at 00:37:23.690 --> 00:37:31.526 least in my experience is that I just watched us move up incrementally and 00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:37.977 make appointments say At a given time period that we could not have made 00:37:38.010 --> 00:37:43.646 10 years earlier or even you're absolutely right about institutions mature 00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:48.827 and you can find people who fit into that slot. I fit into this slot and 00:37:48.860 --> 00:37:54.597 this slot gave me a chance to mature to go to be a president. So I did 00:37:54.630 --> 00:37:57.387 that as a matter of fact, we lost several people here who became president. 00:37:57.420 --> 00:38:03.247 Al Qarni left, became a President nick Henry left and became a president 00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:06.847 page. Mulholland left became a president and there must have been one or 00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:10.907 two other ones. But so we were training those people, they're being 00:38:10.940 --> 00:38:14.387 trained on this transition. 00:38:14.420 --> 00:38:19.356 No, I did get a lot of opportunity to meet with the board here. And when I 00:38:19.389 --> 00:38:24.037 met with the board, I would often ask the board, what is it you think you 00:38:24.070 --> 00:38:30.206 do, what you tell me how you view your job. Well, they got it right, but 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:34.967 I'm not sure they did it right. The right answer to that is they're there 00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:39.006 to represent the population of the state. They're there to make sure that 00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:43.037 the university is giving to the state what the state needs, that is to the 00:38:43.070 --> 00:38:47.347 students, to whatever development the state needs to the research or 00:38:47.380 --> 00:38:52.787 whatever it is. That's what the universities do. Their big feeder system. 00:38:52.820 --> 00:38:58.807 Often the politics gets engaged and that political struggle often then 00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:02.816 retards the development university and in many ways the states. So that's 00:39:02.849 --> 00:39:07.927 part of it, of our democratic system that inter intertwines with with the 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:12.546 education. So then the rest was legislature. And again, having known a few 00:39:12.579 --> 00:39:17.256 of the legislatures and Russ are taking me with him quite often and well, 00:39:17.289 --> 00:39:21.686 I have to tell you another story to which which surprised me coming when I 00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:27.747 came here at that time, the universities were the sweethearts of the 00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:33.896 political system and the sweethearts of the power structure in in phoenix. 00:39:33.929 --> 00:39:39.206 We would hardly go a day without somebody inviting us out management of a 00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:43.626 issue to some function. So we rubbed shoulders constantly with those 00:39:43.659 --> 00:39:48.497 people. It was, it was something that I hadn't been used to any place and 00:39:48.530 --> 00:39:52.997 something I don't think happens everywhere. But it was here, that was that 00:39:53.030 --> 00:39:58.736 development stage of phoenix as a city and Arizona is a state and the 00:39:58.769 --> 00:40:03.006 university. So we had this intermingling and I learned a lot from that. I 00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:07.336 learned a lot of people, I used them for consulting when I came down to 00:40:07.369 --> 00:40:12.197 open up the institutional on the west side, I brought them in there, I got 00:40:12.230 --> 00:40:18.747 to know the the editor of the of the, of the republic. So all of that was 00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:23.296 very helpful in dealing with the community. Now, the second thing was this 00:40:23.329 --> 00:40:28.597 this constant underfunding. Yeah. And this is something you probably did 00:40:28.630 --> 00:40:32.077 not know that the underfunding of the institution compared to U. Of a. 00:40:32.110 --> 00:40:36.126 That was a problem in michigan has the problem was a problem in the state 00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:42.396 to um and the fact that the board was overloaded with those who preferred 00:40:42.429 --> 00:40:45.077 to 00:40:45.110 --> 00:40:51.077 champion, Are you ready? And I finally undercover why? That was, and it 00:40:51.110 --> 00:40:56.416 was as far as I could tell us that to win as a democrat here, You had to 00:40:56.449 --> 00:41:03.706 have a 90% vote on it in Tucson. And so there was always this political 00:41:03.739 --> 00:41:11.566 peace floating around in the board. In any case, you may not know it, but 00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:18.256 the head of the Finance committee and the legislature when I came, I can't 00:41:18.289 --> 00:41:23.546 remember his name well, but he was the head of was my teaching assistant 00:41:23.579 --> 00:41:31.579 at michigan state University. He had gotten his PhD with me. Okay, so I 00:41:32.130 --> 00:41:36.137 didn't even realize until I got here, but that gave me an opening for a 00:41:36.170 --> 00:41:39.706 conversation. You know, I wouldn't use the word influence but conversation 00:41:39.739 --> 00:41:46.916 , it's easy for me to be heard downtown or to help for us in. So that was 00:41:46.949 --> 00:41:49.376 useful. 00:41:49.409 --> 00:41:53.256 So you wandered around the campus who were some of the outstanding 00:41:53.289 --> 00:42:01.289 individuals. Again, my my my day by day work was grounded in a number of 00:42:03.809 --> 00:42:09.646 people, victor's offering victor and I got along extremely well. I liked 00:42:09.679 --> 00:42:14.497 victor very much. I thought what he was doing on the campus was great. He 00:42:14.530 --> 00:42:17.767 made the campus into a much more beautiful place and he and Russ together 00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:22.066 , walked around every day, made those changes and I really supported them 00:42:22.099 --> 00:42:27.066 all of it. When I came we had this disaster called the business building. 00:42:27.099 --> 00:42:30.747 I mean that business building was was a terrible building. I don't think, 00:42:30.780 --> 00:42:34.146 I think it was the last terrible building we had in the, in the sense that 00:42:34.179 --> 00:42:38.787 it was not well constructed, so victor changed all of that. I didn't have 00:42:38.820 --> 00:42:44.807 much interact with one with frank sector, but I admired frank for what he 00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:49.097 could do because he was the greatest switch hitter in the world. I had a 00:42:49.130 --> 00:42:56.847 very high regard for Roland, the Dean of Engineering. I had a very high 00:42:56.880 --> 00:43:02.117 regard for the law school here. I just thought it could be a great school 00:43:02.150 --> 00:43:07.057 . I brought paul bender in to do and I brought in a great person and it 00:43:07.090 --> 00:43:11.776 turned out that he may not have been bested the head of that law school, 00:43:11.809 --> 00:43:15.606 but he did a lot. And he did something I asked him to do which was to 00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:20.856 bring native americans in and he did, he actually brought native americans 00:43:20.889 --> 00:43:27.666 to law school and he became a judge in the Hopi try it. 00:43:27.699 --> 00:43:32.177 There's a few other things I did. I created the I don't know if you know 00:43:32.210 --> 00:43:36.947 there's the region's professorship. No, I didn't. I created that. I wrote 00:43:36.980 --> 00:43:41.407 the thing got the three provinces and the campuses to approve it and then 00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:46.376 took it to the board and created the whole thing. I thought again, what we 00:43:46.409 --> 00:43:51.967 needed to do was to have a technique two 00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:56.336 be proud of who it is within our institutions that have made great names 00:43:56.369 --> 00:44:00.546 and research and then to give them some special privilege. I created the 00:44:00.579 --> 00:44:07.566 first committee that studied question of if somebody gets a pattern and 00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:11.816 there's income coming from that pen, how does the faculty get a piece of 00:44:11.849 --> 00:44:15.206 it or not a piece of that. The committee was done and while I was here 00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:19.586 because I I did that at msu Well that was a natural for you. It was a 00:44:19.619 --> 00:44:23.677 natural. Yeah. So I got, I got that underway. There was a number of those 00:44:23.710 --> 00:44:28.756 kinds of things which I did throughout the institution. They were more 00:44:28.789 --> 00:44:33.057 what I would call university projects versus department or college 00:44:33.090 --> 00:44:39.456 background library. I did. I was, I was the person who thought that up, 00:44:39.489 --> 00:44:43.827 but I I don't know. But to me that's just not standing thing. It didn't 00:44:43.860 --> 00:44:48.086 ruin our campus, which was the whole idea not to ruin the and it's a, it's 00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:53.407 a nice place to be done. Uh The other thing I did was the Goldwater, but 00:44:53.440 --> 00:44:56.727 we had the perfect thing. Cold water's gonna retire. You gotta have a 00:44:56.760 --> 00:45:00.387 building named after Goldwater. Good Lord. Before you know, before we got 00:45:00.420 --> 00:45:05.057 our claws on that 00:45:05.090 --> 00:45:09.927 when students come into a classroom and professor standing up there giving 00:45:09.960 --> 00:45:15.756 a lecture, what goes on between the student and the professor in that 00:45:15.789 --> 00:45:20.566 period. It's not as important as it is when the students suddenly realizes 00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:25.626 , but he's an M. R. She's an electrical. And what I'm really listening to 00:45:25.659 --> 00:45:29.137 is how an intellectual lives, what's really exciting about being 00:45:29.170 --> 00:45:34.146 intellectual because process tell stories. That's that's what I call the 00:45:34.179 --> 00:45:38.617 invisible university. It's not there, it's not in the registrar said, but 00:45:38.650 --> 00:45:43.287 you learn the excitement of learning you all about it. You know what it is 00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:47.986 to inquire something new. You can see the surprises that you get and the 00:45:48.019 --> 00:45:51.477 beauty of learning more about our environment about ourselves and 00:45:51.510 --> 00:45:56.097 everything. So that's what I think a good university education is about. 00:45:56.130 --> 00:46:00.097 It's about learning what happened to be in an election. I can tell you 00:46:00.130 --> 00:46:08.086 two things I love about today's too. One is that they're they're into the 00:46:08.119 --> 00:46:13.247 new communications there on top of it. Absolutely. And the second thing is 00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:17.997 they actually love diversity. The diversity of society and the damage is 00:46:18.030 --> 00:46:25.646 wonderful. They don't see it as a problem. They see it as a blessing 00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:31.367 you've been actively and Vigorously in retirement for a while. I have 00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:37.686 retired at age 70 and then I decided I should have retired in 60. So now I 00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:44.807 can tell you that I'm in my the 15th year, About 13th year retirement and 00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:50.296 I've never been happier. This is the great time of life. It's, it's, it's 00:46:50.329 --> 00:46:55.267 marvelous. I can't tell you how much I love this life. I have a wonderful 00:46:55.300 --> 00:47:00.586 place to live. I have a wonderful marriage. I have, I can do the things I 00:47:00.619 --> 00:47:06.407 want to do. I go to the concerts of it finished simply I go to the opera. 00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:11.296 We travel quite a bit. So for me it's a wonderful time of life that 00:47:11.329 --> 00:47:15.736 families are in good shape and I'm healthy. But you know, we're here in 00:47:15.769 --> 00:47:21.666 life for some period and you have to fit with period and it's been a good 00:47:21.699 --> 00:47:25.650 fit for me. It's been a good fit for you. I guess too.