WEBVTT

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 I'm pam Stevenson and our photographer videographer today is Manny Garcia

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and it's monday january the 9th, 2000
and six and we are doing a living

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history interview for the living
history video project for Arizona State

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University retirees association. And
we are at the visitor's information

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center of a issue at rural and

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be much longer. They're closing in. Uh
and I'd like to have you introduced

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yourself if you could give us your
full name. My name is Charles E bacchus

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known as chuck to most people. And you
tell me when and where you were

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born. born in 1937 in wade's town.
West Virginia, raised in west Virginia

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and went to college in Ohio Hi
university and then went to the University

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of Arizona for my graduate degrees.
Let's talk a little bit about growing

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up in west Virginia. Is that where you
grew up? What did your family do or

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how many kids were in your family?

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Well, one of the biggest influence I
guess was that both of my

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grandfathers and their families were
backward farmers in west Virginia and

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my father do a set of circumstances
became a methodist minister and so we

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in those days they rotated every
couple of years. And so we moved all over

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west Virginia. I was growing up but
always with the roots, my grandparents

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not too far away

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and he actually moved to Ohio and 53.
Well I was going into junior junior

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year of high school and but then he
moved away just a year later. And so I

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sort of stayed at this little farming
community work in my room and board

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and finished up high school and then
went to high University

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and engineering,

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moving that much brothers and one
sister, one older sister and yeah, it

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became more difficult. The order you
got to uproot and change again, but

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probably not bad experience in
retrospect of

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having to make new friends and so
forth fairly quickly. So that wasn't all

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bad. And my home being a minister in
those days, you didn't make very much

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money and so we didn't have much money
at home, but a lot of books and so

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that was probably not a bad
environment either. So were you a good student

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?

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I guess, so that it was never a major
driving force in my life. But yeah,

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I guess I was a good student.

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It was college, something you always
planned to go to college. Yes. Um,

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that was just expected. Again, we
didn't have much money, but my, my

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mother was a schoolteacher and
actually started teaching school when she

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was 16 before they had colleges in
those days. My father,

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I didn't decide to go to high school
until he was 20, they didn't have a

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high school actually within walking
distance. And so after he got his call

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to the ministry, he had to go to high
school first and then to college and

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then the seminary, so pretty late
start in life, but it was just sort of

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expected that my sister and I would
go, did you know, growing up, what you

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wanted to study or what not at all. I,
I figured out that I didn't want to

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be a minister.

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Ah but I don't know, I guess I was in
high school in a small town in Ohio

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and one of my teachers just said, well
you're good at math and there's a

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big demand for engineers and it pays
well. So I said, okay, cool, find out

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for engineering. It wasn't a real
passionate, but I always interested in

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the world around me and how it
operated. I mean I was inclined that way. I

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just didn't know what the label was to
go with it.

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And so you went to Ohio University in
Athens, Ohio, the first university

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west of the Allegheny Mountain. No
claim,

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I wouldn't know and went um

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Very well. I, I came from this very
small high school there 15 in my

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graduating class and you know that we
just had one year of algebra and and

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no physics and chemistry and so I had
to do a lot of makeup courses and I

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was concerned about being thrown this
big universities. So the first

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semester, first half of next semester
actually I worked really hard. I

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thought I was going to have to try
real hard and I did and, and I had

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straight A's by the end of the
midterm. So I started slacking off and

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enjoying myself a little bit. But

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now it was enjoyable. But I I was
married between my sophomore and junior

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years. So my wife and I were married
when we were 19, so sort of rushed

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everything along. Yeah, that's young
to be married, yep. And we had our

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three kids before, we were Whatever,
it was 24, something like that. And

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so

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so did you know, what did you have
time to put three kids to think about

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what you're gonna do for a career?
Well, um, other than uh when I

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graduated from high University and
Mechanical Engineering, I decided that

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I I didn't think I wanted to be a
mechanical engineer, which was not time

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to realize that. And but there was a
new field blossoming and nuclear

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engineering, which you just needed to
have engineering degree to go into

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on a graduate level. And so um I
decided that that was interesting. I've

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had one course as an undergraduate in
that field. So I, there weren't very

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many schools in nuclear engineering at
the time and you have a, was one of

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them. And so I played there in several
other places, but they, they

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offered me a assistantship

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and I've been to Arizona and I wanted
to come to Arizona. So

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what did you like about Arizona?

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I've always been sort of an outdoors
oriented person and and I've been out

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here and hiked around a little bit and
traveled in Arizona and it's just

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huge variety of terrain and outdoor
experiences available. When did you

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come to Arizona 1959

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and we had

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two Children at that time I guess.

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Don't, what did your wife think about
Arizona? She's always hot brown. She

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was from Ohio and I'm not sure she'd
ever been out of the state before.

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But so we, we came to Arizona and and
uh but the outdoor life I was

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interested in was very cheap, which
was an appropriate thing for graduate

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school. So I did a lot of hiking and
climbing and campaign and so forth

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during the graduate school days and
usually worked away in the summertime.

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And so we got to experience various
other places. And in the west you

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were studying nuclear engineering at
that point. What were you planning to

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do with that? Well this was post um
Sputnik days, you may recall Sputnik

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went up in 57. So there was, and
that's when I was in college and

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and interested like any fetish young
man perhaps uh in up and coming

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things. So my interest was in getting
into

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working on power systems for space
space vehicles and in nuclear

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engineering. There's was one of the ah
Up and coming things at the time

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too. But it was one of the two basic
sources of energy that one could use

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in space. You can't take a lot of fuel
to operate satellites, Sony, there

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has to be a nuclear source of a small
come back or it had to be solar and

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solar was just getting started at the
time. So I went space power area and

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when I graduated in

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65 with my PhD, I went to work in
Pittsburgh of all places and for

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Westinghouse because they built
satellite systems and nuclear power

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systems. I worked there for three
years before I got a call from A S. U.

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One of my colleagues had come on the
faculty here and called me in

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Pittsburgh and so they were looking
for another nuclear engineer kind of

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person on the faculty at issue and
asked if I'd be interested in, the more

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I thought about, the better sounded
coming home now. Has that been

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something you thought about going into
teaching? Yes, uh I enjoyed it

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because my assistantship, I did a lot
of teaching when I was in graduate

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school before I went on a research
assistant ships for my doctorate

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dissertation and I enjoyed it and was
convinced by the chairman of that

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department that if I'm ever interested
in teaching, I needed to go ahead

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and get my union card first. And so,
and if you ever drop out, you'll

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never start again. So you better just
keep going. And so I took that

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advice, just kept keep that option
open. I've always been keeping your

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options open. So, so what was a s you
like when you came in? What year did

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you come here, 68 68. It had only been
a university Really less than 10

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years at the time. Ah And most of the
people were originally hired in in

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the initial hiring process. Um Dean
lea Thompson was the Dean of

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Engineering and he had started the
engineering school from scratch. Like

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all the other colleges, business and
engineering were strong colleges at

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that time and for several years after
that, partly on the the

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personalities of the two deans. But um
Thompson had come here, was hired

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to become to be the founding Dean of
Engineering 56 so long before the

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vote to make it a university and was
strong participant in getting at the

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referendum passed and all that sort of
thing. And it was a very

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uh teachers, college philosophy, it
had always been a teacher's college.

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All the administrators university were
teachers,

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the strong philosophy at the time,
which certainly Dean Thompson had was

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that our purpose in Arizona was to
educate the citizenry of Arizona. Our

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job was to provide educational
opportunities so that they could pursue

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their areas of interest to prepare
them for life. And that was our sole

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job. There was very little interest
and certainly no encouragement to do

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research, which I found a little
disappointing because that's what my

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primary interest really was. And so um
the whole atmosphere,

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I was teaching oriented, very good
teachers. For the most part, not all

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the faculty then were phds

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that wasn't a requirement kind of
thing in those days and that was sort of

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the transition of american
universities in general and 60s of sort of

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requiring that and sufficient pool of
graduates that they could, could

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require before that had been a little
difficult, certainly in areas like

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engineering. So it was a different
environment, There was really no

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encouragement to work with industry
and of course I was coming from

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industry. Uh first of all, they don't
give you any credit for having

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worked in industry and academia. Um
but um I I remember Dean Thompson

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telling me that we shouldn't accept
any gifts from, from the equipment or

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anything else from industry, which is
quite contrary to what I spent a lot

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of my life doing what was his magic.
Well that if they give you something

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and you're obligated to do something
for them and we need to be

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independent and not obliging to anyone
or any sector or whatever. So it

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was

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maybe a little idealistic but more the
traditional educator point of view

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that we're looked at from society as
independent, credible sources of

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information and if you get tainted in
some way that you owe somebody

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something and that would undermine
that kind of image and reputation. Mhm.

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What was your first job title when you
came here? Professor of

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Engineering? We didn't have
departments of engineering yet. We just had

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and no no titles like electrical or
mechanical engineering. That was an

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artifact of how Dean Thompson had to
get to college started through the

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board of regions and over the U. Of
A's objection. You couldn't call them

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electrical engineers or whatever, you
just became engineers. And how big

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was the school at that time? Uh the
university or the engineering school's

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not that I can answer. Probably either
question. Ah

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The engineering Engineering school, I
really don't know. I guess maybe

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maybe 1500 couple 1000 students. He
was an athlete. About

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100 or so. Where were you looking in?
Engineering G wing, which are

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relatively new building at the time?

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I was in Mechanical Engineering
Faculty, which sort of housed the subset

00:15:46.269 --> 00:15:50.047
of nuclear to these two nuclear
engineers. But I had a, you know, a

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bachelor's degree in mechanical
engineering, so that was appropriate. So I

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could teach mechanical engineering
courses. And and those days we all

00:15:57.230 --> 00:16:04.407
taught for Courses, courses. And so
they're all 12, 12 credit hours a

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semester. And I taught a lot of lab
courses which take even more time in

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that. But I was interested in research
and I guess sort of the the nice

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thing is that they didn't say I
couldn't do it. And so I started some

00:16:20.370 --> 00:16:28.317
activities on the side and and writing
the proposals, I decided when I

00:16:28.350 --> 00:16:33.947
came since I was in uh nuclear space
power and all of the contracts were

00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:38.537
going to the solar cell people,
Satellite people were winning all the

00:16:38.570 --> 00:16:43.096
contracts. So when I came here in 68
when I decided, well I'm smart enough

00:16:43.129 --> 00:16:47.967
to join the winning team. So I decided
I'll become a solar expert. So I

00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:53.236
had to set in a lot of courses here
about electronics that I had some

00:16:53.269 --> 00:16:57.707
background in, but not enough. And so
I became

00:16:57.740 --> 00:17:02.496
Uh interested in an advocate and a
researcher in in solar energy then

00:17:02.529 --> 00:17:09.207
starting in 68. Now at that time in
Arizona where it was solar energy

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other than you were talking about your
skin for space, but where was it?

00:17:12.740 --> 00:17:20.740
Okay, very little. Uh, then other
than, um, And there's several examples

00:17:22.190 --> 00:17:26.947
where there were solar engines and so
forth, operating like in Tempe

00:17:26.980 --> 00:17:32.566
Arizona in 1902. Uh, and other places,
uh, there had been a solar

00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:36.006
conference here in 56

00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:41.306
in which they created an international
solar energy society.

00:17:41.339 --> 00:17:49.339
And uh, Professor Yelich was here um
and affiliated with architecture and

00:17:52.289 --> 00:17:57.556
he had been here locally and was
instrumental in that conference. And, and

00:17:57.589 --> 00:18:04.076
uh, so the International Solar Energy
Society office was in Tempe at an

00:18:04.109 --> 00:18:11.397
engineering issue at the time and it
was being moved out about that time

00:18:11.430 --> 00:18:17.806
to Australia because there was so
little activity in the US. So the issue

00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:24.107
was very instrumental in the very
early history of solar energy,

00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:30.607
But down to about zero at that time,

00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:34.667
did you think at that time that your
career, when you moved to Arizona,

00:18:34.700 --> 00:18:37.937
that this was going to be your final
place for your career? Or what were

00:18:37.970 --> 00:18:45.970
your thoughts in coming here? They
moved career? Um

00:18:46.140 --> 00:18:50.016
I don't know if I had made a
commitment to stay indefinitely. I'm not a

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very um

00:18:54.940 --> 00:18:59.667
short term thinking individual in
general. And so I don't fritter here and

00:18:59.700 --> 00:19:03.326
there as a general rule. So

00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:10.000
you never know you can't project Your
own career for 40 years in advance.

00:19:10.539 --> 00:19:12.539
I'm just happy with what I was doing and progression over the years today

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, as you were very happy and changes
that occurred today issue throughout

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all those years. And so it was very
compatible and instrumental in a lot

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of those changes. So that was very,
very good. Well, you're gonna mention

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before we started about telling me
more about the history of the

00:19:30.500 --> 00:19:35.687
engineering department is a good place
to do that. Sure. And I've already

00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:38.607
alluded to

00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:43.316
Uh Dean Thompson, Lea Thompson who was
hired in 56, he was a native

00:19:43.349 --> 00:19:48.816
Arizona and um but went away and was
at texas A and M. Teaching

00:19:48.849 --> 00:19:53.167
engineering at the time. and uh
invited back to start the engineering

00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:59.996
program in 56, Hired George Weekly in
57 and the two of them and

00:20:00.029 --> 00:20:04.586
orchestrated getting the approval
through the board of regions to

00:20:04.619 --> 00:20:08.467
establish an engineering program here.
Of course at that time, this wasn't

00:20:08.500 --> 00:20:13.907
even a university in 57. And

00:20:13.940 --> 00:20:20.717
do you have a dominant as it was and
continues to be um had the only

00:20:20.750 --> 00:20:24.637
engineering school and the whole state
of Arizona all those years. And so

00:20:24.670 --> 00:20:29.927
there was a lot of opposition And um
but they were successful in getting

00:20:29.960 --> 00:20:34.836
the referendum passed in 58 to become
a university but they had to

00:20:34.869 --> 00:20:38.516
organize this special kind of
engineering to get it through the border

00:20:38.549 --> 00:20:43.917
regions and unopposed by the U. Of A.
And that they had to have a general

00:20:43.950 --> 00:20:50.806
engineering. And so they came up sort
of as a requirement of that. But

00:20:50.839 --> 00:20:55.006
with a concept of engineering that was
unique in the country, meaning that

00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:58.967
that a philosophy that your first of
all an engineer and then second of

00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:05.437
all specialists. So the first three
years of engineering, it was the same

00:21:05.470 --> 00:21:08.947
core for everybody where they're going
electrical or mechanical or

00:21:08.980 --> 00:21:15.296
chemical and you only sort of
specialized that last year. And so that was

00:21:15.329 --> 00:21:22.907
very unique and therefore you couldn't
say well you're just duplicating us.

00:21:22.940 --> 00:21:27.917
And so that was the original concept
of engineering at a issue. And and

00:21:27.950 --> 00:21:35.950
that grew um from there and degraded
if you will if you over the years too

00:21:37.339 --> 00:21:45.339
two be more conventional engineering
curriculum um as it as it matured.

00:21:45.940 --> 00:21:51.187
But really there were no engineering
departments per se. Most of the

00:21:51.220 --> 00:21:56.847
university was organized in colleges
and departments and there were

00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:02.877
administrative collections called just
faculties of electrical And so

00:22:02.910 --> 00:22:08.836
forth. And that occurred until
Thompson retired in 78 and we hired a new

00:22:08.869 --> 00:22:14.306
dean. Um and that was fortunate enough
to be on the dean selection

00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:21.707
committee and we hired a person to
help us change gears and become a more

00:22:21.740 --> 00:22:29.740
modern, uh huh well balanced
engineering program with all kinds of things

00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:35.407
other than just mostly undergraduate
education and a few masters degrees.

00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:43.440
So that was um very good. We hired
Roland Hayden as the new dean of

00:22:45.430 --> 00:22:52.107
Engineering with that kind of
orientation and because of my orientation

00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:57.127
within semester. So he asked me to be
the associate dean for research for

00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:03.836
the college to help this transition
into a more balanced college. And I'd

00:23:03.869 --> 00:23:11.869
had many large by issue standards and
research contracts too, the National

00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:15.556
Science Foundation and and so forth.
That were, you know, a couple

00:23:15.589 --> 00:23:21.107
$100,000 a lot of money and early
seventies.

00:23:21.140 --> 00:23:27.306
And so um I was able to pursue on a
broader scale bringing up the

00:23:27.339 --> 00:23:34.506
engineering college and a research
balance mode across the whole college.

00:23:34.539 --> 00:23:42.539
And so we forged the, a partnership
with industry, they needed engineers

00:23:42.990 --> 00:23:47.637
and they needed well trained engineers
in the valley. And so that was a

00:23:47.670 --> 00:23:53.357
major early thrust of Roland Hayden's
and myself more in the background as

00:23:53.390 --> 00:23:57.607
uh associate dean for research in
getting that relationship and building

00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:01.907
research capability, hiring faculty to
do that. And so that was called an

00:24:01.940 --> 00:24:05.467
engineering excellence program was
called the time I got a lot of money

00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:08.637
out of the legislature because
industry would go down there and say we

00:24:08.670 --> 00:24:13.776
need this for our growth and that sort
of thing. So it a very workable

00:24:13.809 --> 00:24:20.867
partnership, so that that's always
been very satisfying to me to to help

00:24:20.900 --> 00:24:25.236
and to see that change within a s you
certainly within the College of

00:24:25.269 --> 00:24:32.647
Engineering in particular change of
the role of the private industry.

00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:36.336
Are there particular parts of the
local private industry that were

00:24:36.369 --> 00:24:42.566
particularly helpful to diversity?
Yes. All of the big companies at the

00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:47.617
time. Motorola was fairly big In the
70s. They sort of peaked, they were

00:24:47.650 --> 00:24:52.707
the highest private employer in the
state of Arizona at the time, 20

00:24:52.740 --> 00:24:59.836
25,000 employees. And they were
probably the most influential ones. And we

00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:07.869
had no no expertise in electronics.
And hear they were a major electronics

00:25:08.150 --> 00:25:14.687
manufacturer in the valley. And we
didn't have a decent electronics lab.

00:25:14.720 --> 00:25:20.907
And and all this time I was trying to
do research and, and solar

00:25:20.940 --> 00:25:27.226
ah electric systems called
photovoltaics, which it was very difficult to

00:25:27.259 --> 00:25:33.197
do. And so we chose a research area
that didn't require hi electronic

00:25:33.230 --> 00:25:37.857
capability at university, which was
approaching terrestrial photovoltaic

00:25:37.890 --> 00:25:44.627
switch. What I emphasized after I came
here um of using the sun to

00:25:44.660 --> 00:25:50.496
concentrate it with some cheaper
device, like a mirror lens. And so that

00:25:50.529 --> 00:25:55.786
the expensive part of the device,
meaning the solar cell was very small

00:25:55.819 --> 00:26:02.586
compared with its output, try to
reduce the overall cost. So our uh

00:26:02.619 --> 00:26:07.397
photovoltaic concentration approach to
lowering the cost of, of solar

00:26:07.430 --> 00:26:12.907
generation. It was quite unique and we
started that in, in the world and

00:26:12.940 --> 00:26:18.056
uh, brought along to its commercial
viability essentially over all those

00:26:18.089 --> 00:26:23.637
years. Um, so that was very personally
satisfying to me as this transition

00:26:23.670 --> 00:26:30.246
of the whole college and university,
the research oriented Probably during

00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:38.207
the Middle 70s, late 70s, early 80 as
she was the prominent research

00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:44.377
university and photovoltaics and the
country, if not the world. We had a

00:26:44.410 --> 00:26:48.217
lot of different professors involved
eventually over a whole variety

00:26:48.250 --> 00:26:53.006
spectrum of solar research

00:26:53.039 --> 00:27:01.039
and I remember doing stories about
that at the time. Yeah,

00:27:01.609 --> 00:27:07.707
thanks. But yet it doesn't seem to
have progressed very far.

00:27:07.740 --> 00:27:14.407
It does appear to have that that
reputation.

00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:21.387
Uh, but sort of as a commercial
industry. Now, a lot of the early works

00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:26.286
were government related, either
supportive research or demonstration

00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:33.296
projects. And In the early and late
70s, I was one of the founders of the

00:27:33.329 --> 00:27:37.897
national solar Program. In 1973,

00:27:37.930 --> 00:27:42.016
they called a conference to set up the
national program. There was not a

00:27:42.049 --> 00:27:46.617
government supported program to
support solar energy at all before that

00:27:46.650 --> 00:27:54.650
time. And and so it just got started
then. But in the last 20 years, that

00:27:55.789 --> 00:27:58.006
industry

00:27:58.039 --> 00:28:06.039
as an industry has grown every year,
about 20% per year And by most

00:28:06.089 --> 00:28:11.226
industrial economic standards, as a
very rapid growth for an industry to

00:28:11.259 --> 00:28:16.246
grow by 20% a year for 20 years in a
row. Now, it started from so close to

00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:21.467
zero, You can do that a long time
without having a significant effect. But

00:28:21.500 --> 00:28:26.806
it's, uh, you know, it's, it's
probably approaching a measurable meaning,

00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:32.867
um, Maybe less than a 1%. But a
measurable amount of contribution to

00:28:32.900 --> 00:28:38.617
energy, United States turns out
Germany and other countries have surpassed

00:28:38.650 --> 00:28:44.667
us now because of the lack of
government support. So, uh, we're now

00:28:44.700 --> 00:28:48.836
playing sort of second fiddle and a
lot of our companies have evolved into

00:28:48.869 --> 00:28:56.407
foreign ownership. Now notice
Australians

00:28:56.440 --> 00:29:00.506
remember at the time when I was doing
something, Arco had bought up solar

00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:03.407
,

00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:10.086
I wanted to succeed. Well, that was,
that was a suspicion among most of

00:29:10.119 --> 00:29:16.306
the conspiracy theorists around, but
actually the opposite was the case.

00:29:16.339 --> 00:29:20.496
And that a lot of the oil company and
they have, you know, a lot of money

00:29:20.529 --> 00:29:25.266
to put in R and D and for speculation
and so forth. And some of them

00:29:25.299 --> 00:29:28.887
started to realize that, you know,
we're in the energy business in the

00:29:28.920 --> 00:29:33.826
long run, not just the solar business
and we'd better establish our foot

00:29:33.859 --> 00:29:39.016
in sort of the next generation, even
though they wouldn't openly talk

00:29:39.049 --> 00:29:43.717
about it. Most knowledgeable people
realized the limitation of the world's

00:29:43.750 --> 00:29:51.326
supply of oil. And Even though 20
years ago wasn't very popular, it's

00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:58.506
pretty much recognized among the
resource scientists of the world that

00:29:58.539 --> 00:30:04.076
there was a pretty limited supply. And
as you know, presumably the oil

00:30:04.109 --> 00:30:08.897
production US speak many, many years
ago and has been declining and the

00:30:08.930 --> 00:30:12.766
world production of oil will probably
peak within this next five year

00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:18.697
period and it will decline from them
forever. And so there has to be some

00:30:18.730 --> 00:30:23.526
transition to other alternatives. And
so those oil companies Arco was one

00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:28.137
of mobile was one of them. There was a
mobile solar company for many, many

00:30:28.170 --> 00:30:36.170
years um Solar Act or Amoco Solar X
was the company that they bought. And

00:30:39.539 --> 00:30:46.586
Shell joined up with a Motorola and a
joint venture um, Here in the early

00:30:46.619 --> 00:30:52.627
80s, here in phoenix. So the oil
industry were major investors and in

00:30:52.660 --> 00:30:58.117
portable tanks and now the largest
producer of photovoltaics on the road

00:30:58.150 --> 00:31:00.907
is british petroleum.

00:31:00.940 --> 00:31:06.836
So, and again, and like the r code
that you mentioned,

00:31:06.869 --> 00:31:14.869
the german company bought them out
some years ago. Okay. It seems like the

00:31:15.599 --> 00:31:21.707
technology, the photovoltaic cells
were working fine in 1980.

00:31:21.740 --> 00:31:27.707
Has it has it gotten that much
technology of photovoltaics gotten better?

00:31:27.740 --> 00:31:33.766
The there's nothing wrong with the
technology. And I have some cells for

00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:40.707
instance that my cattle ranch which
became solar powered In 1979. So

00:31:40.740 --> 00:31:47.107
that's 27 years ago. And I have some
solar panels that are 30 years old

00:31:47.140 --> 00:31:52.917
because we were just starting like I
said and 73 to set up a terrestrial

00:31:52.950 --> 00:32:00.950
oriented program. And so there was
some cells made actually by uh Exxon at

00:32:01.450 --> 00:32:06.707
the time oil company? S. O research
labs

00:32:06.740 --> 00:32:13.006
that were built just let's take some
of these silicon cells put them on

00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:17.417
hold circuit board and cover it with
something to keep the rain off of it.

00:32:17.450 --> 00:32:21.736
And and so they made him about the
time we were starting a national

00:32:21.769 --> 00:32:27.107
program where people didn't know how
to make them for terrestrial self.

00:32:27.140 --> 00:32:31.677
I've had them at the ranch after they
were tested for two or three or four

00:32:31.710 --> 00:32:36.217
years. I've had them then since the
late 70s at the ranch exposed to

00:32:36.250 --> 00:32:42.006
sunlight and doing work and most of
them have

00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:47.526
Are still fine and operable. They've
degraded over that 30 years Maybe as

00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:51.546
much as 20% in there electrical
output. But that they were built when you

00:32:51.579 --> 00:32:54.697
didn't know how to build them and no
glass on them, no metal on them or

00:32:54.730 --> 00:33:01.967
anything that are long term materials.
And so the technology is fine. They

00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:06.447
were just very expensive and what has
changed over the years is to

00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:14.480
decrease. And the price photovoltaic
panels that are the final products

00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:20.597
and in the reliability of those panels
in the sense that we have. As a

00:33:20.630 --> 00:33:25.697
matter of fact one of the results of
my activities the issue we were

00:33:25.730 --> 00:33:31.806
encouraged and have set up the only
solar photovoltaic testing laboratory

00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:36.516
in the United States so that for
certification verification all the

00:33:36.549 --> 00:33:40.677
companies have to send their panels to
us to get sort of the U. L. And

00:33:40.710 --> 00:33:45.276
we're actually ul rated lab as well.
Uh And this is actually east these

00:33:45.309 --> 00:33:52.407
days and that was is required to
guarantee that they can pass all these

00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:57.877
physical requirements to last for 30
years in in the environment and with

00:33:57.910 --> 00:34:03.296
hail and rain and storm and lightning
and and all these kind of things. So

00:34:03.329 --> 00:34:09.697
that has matured past that the other
parts of solar systems are the ones

00:34:09.730 --> 00:34:14.396
that have matured the most I'd say
solar cells and solar panels. Nothing

00:34:14.429 --> 00:34:16.856
goes wrong with them. Just put them
out there and they generate

00:34:16.889 --> 00:34:23.836
electricity. Ah But the ones that
control the batteries if you have

00:34:23.869 --> 00:34:27.697
batteries in the system, the batteries
themselves,

00:34:27.730 --> 00:34:31.217
the only thing you ever have to
change, I have to replace them every five

00:34:31.250 --> 00:34:33.807
years or so.

00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:39.896
The the controllers if you want to
convert it to a C electricity for 120

00:34:39.929 --> 00:34:44.026
household kind electricity that was a
special product. And you had to get

00:34:44.059 --> 00:34:47.497
the production up to a point that they
became reliable because a very

00:34:47.530 --> 00:34:51.756
special product for electronic
industry and and so those things have

00:34:51.789 --> 00:34:57.206
matured much faster and finally caught
up somewhat with the reliability of

00:34:57.239 --> 00:35:01.986
the panels themselves. But the panels
require you to reduce the cost per

00:35:02.019 --> 00:35:10.019
square foot of making them. That's
all. And so solar so ah low density

00:35:10.300 --> 00:35:13.186
from an engineering point of view and
you walk outside you think it's

00:35:13.219 --> 00:35:16.827
pretty hot in the summertime. But
compared with walking into a gas furnace

00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:20.497
that's nothing you know so that the
density is very low which means you

00:35:20.530 --> 00:35:24.146
need a very, very large area and so
you need a large area. So you have to

00:35:24.179 --> 00:35:28.747
get the cost per square foot down and
that's what's been progressing over

00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:36.227
these years ever so slowly, don't. But
that I guess in in our discussion

00:35:36.260 --> 00:35:41.347
about the history of a issue that that
was a field that a s you became

00:35:41.380 --> 00:35:49.006
extremely well known in. And I
encourage some of my colleagues and

00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:54.387
and mechanical engineering to get into
partly the concentrator part that

00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:59.617
we were working on as which is
mechanical systems from those parts. But in

00:35:59.650 --> 00:36:05.106
solar air conditioning systems and hot
water heating systems dr Byron

00:36:05.139 --> 00:36:07.997
would

00:36:08.030 --> 00:36:13.416
I became very involved in that. And
there were, I think Yellow must have

00:36:13.449 --> 00:36:17.836
joined the architectural faculty about
that time, sort of had an

00:36:17.869 --> 00:36:22.287
architectural perspective. And then
Jeff Cook Also in the design of

00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:27.646
buildings to incorporate or two to
minimize the effects of solar. So

00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:33.316
across those, those technologies were
very well known around the world and

00:36:33.349 --> 00:36:38.467
I probably for many years ran into
Jeff other places in the world more

00:36:38.500 --> 00:36:42.046
than a day. If you I've seen two or
three different places would be

00:36:42.079 --> 00:36:47.387
invited lectures and and more so than
I'd seen him on this campus. And I

00:36:47.420 --> 00:36:54.796
would um became very well known and
solar thermal kinds of uses. And so

00:36:54.829 --> 00:37:01.197
that was one of the early credible
recognizable

00:37:01.230 --> 00:37:06.697
research contribution areas of issue
in the technical world. Anyway,

00:37:06.730 --> 00:37:12.646
key part of that. Yes, uh huh. I was
in our students and faculty and one

00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:16.907
time I think I counted we had eight
different faculty members in

00:37:16.940 --> 00:37:22.206
engineering involved in some aspect of
photovoltaic research at that point

00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:27.296
we had capability of doing cell
research and materials research as well as

00:37:27.329 --> 00:37:32.876
as systems and so forth. So and you
mentioned the photo tech testing. When

00:37:32.909 --> 00:37:35.697
was that?

00:37:35.730 --> 00:37:38.197
Ah

00:37:38.230 --> 00:37:44.936
Well as I was phasing out of active
researcher and getting into more into

00:37:44.969 --> 00:37:50.017
administrative level and I was I I
acted as the interim dean of

00:37:50.050 --> 00:37:56.546
engineering when Roland Hayden left in
whenever that was 1990 or so. And

00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:02.606
phasing out, we were being encouraged
by the national labs and industry to

00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:05.967
to establish the testing laboratory
because there was one in europe they

00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:09.686
had to send there's two to get
certified

00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:14.347
and so with the help of them the
national labs and some of the industry

00:38:14.380 --> 00:38:18.117
they gave us funding to get started
and building up test equipment so

00:38:18.150 --> 00:38:25.887
forth. So I hired an old friend that
was an experimentalist type of person

00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:29.367
and he started that laboratory and we
built a lot of equipment with

00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:35.997
students and so forth. And bob
Hammond, he was not a faculty member but he

00:38:36.030 --> 00:38:40.756
used to work at Motorola in their
photovoltaic element and work for mobile

00:38:40.789 --> 00:38:45.166
solar for several years after that and
for as a consultant for power

00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:53.106
companies and others and so he was
hired to to start that laboratory and

00:38:53.139 --> 00:38:59.606
he build it up and we became
certified. And when I moved to east to start

00:38:59.639 --> 00:39:04.186
that campus and 93

00:39:04.219 --> 00:39:08.126
we then moved what, we started that
lab out there. And, and that's where

00:39:08.159 --> 00:39:16.159
it became well known. And they do
Testing for 70% of all the photovoltaic

00:39:17.349 --> 00:39:23.166
companies in the world go through
their land. So the continuation is not

00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:27.206
research per se, but its recognition
to the university for establishing

00:39:27.239 --> 00:39:31.217
that, um, report that sounds like
something that might even bring in

00:39:31.250 --> 00:39:35.776
income. It pays for itself anyway,
that's more than most university

00:39:35.809 --> 00:39:41.967
activities. Do you have to be
underwritten to some degree? So it, yeah.

00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:47.956
And it puts us on the map. Mm hmm. Um,
well you mentioned you did a lot of

00:39:47.989 --> 00:39:55.597
traveling with the solar industry. Are
you still involved with that or

00:39:55.630 --> 00:40:03.630
administration? Right. I've been very
active over the years with the solar

00:40:04.219 --> 00:40:09.137
energy subset of like electrical
engineering electrical engineering

00:40:09.170 --> 00:40:14.307
society. And actually I became a
fellow of the Electrical Engineering

00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:20.407
Society. one must have been 80 or 81
when I was a member of the Mechanical

00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:24.057
engineering department. And so the
electrical department then at that time

00:40:24.090 --> 00:40:28.197
said, well, we can't have a fellow of
the away, there were only two of us

00:40:28.230 --> 00:40:34.066
in the university at that point. And
so they invited me and I became an

00:40:34.099 --> 00:40:37.787
electrical engineering professor and
that's what I retired as electrical

00:40:37.820 --> 00:40:44.177
engineering professor. Um, but very
prominent in organizing

00:40:44.210 --> 00:40:48.537
short courses. I taught short courses,
your week long short courses for

00:40:48.570 --> 00:40:53.276
many, many years when it wasn't
available in universities this curriculum

00:40:53.309 --> 00:40:58.727
and in an organizing conferences and
so forth and so on. And so I'm still

00:40:58.760 --> 00:41:04.706
involved some for that, although they
had a photovoltaic concentration

00:41:04.739 --> 00:41:08.776
conference in Australia

00:41:08.809 --> 00:41:13.137
Two or three years ago and I was
invited to give the keynote address and I

00:41:13.170 --> 00:41:18.066
said, I haven't done anything in
research for 10 years or more and they

00:41:18.099 --> 00:41:21.657
said that we just want to give a
historical perspective and I think I can

00:41:21.690 --> 00:41:28.086
do that. So, so anyway, I'm involved
with with those kinds of activities

00:41:28.119 --> 00:41:34.376
to people, certainly the lab out here
brings in a lot of people and still

00:41:34.409 --> 00:41:39.936
involved with the uh we and sort of
one of the old gray hairs as far as

00:41:39.969 --> 00:41:44.097
just advising, running the conferences
and so forth, but nothing really

00:41:44.130 --> 00:41:49.876
technical, Well, tell me about how you
transition from the engineering

00:41:49.909 --> 00:41:57.909
college and from research into
administration. Exactly about well, um

00:41:58.409 --> 00:42:06.409
after we hired the new dean and um
engineering Roland Hayden in 78

00:42:07.099 --> 00:42:11.186
At that time, as you had a rule that
no administrator could serve after

00:42:11.219 --> 00:42:18.066
age 65. So um lea Thompson had to
retire as dean, he could continue on and

00:42:18.099 --> 00:42:24.767
teach in which he did, won several
teaching awards after that. Um

00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:31.896
So the new dean came in in 78 and as I
had indicated with the intent of

00:42:31.929 --> 00:42:37.666
most of us to change directions and to
build up research. And since I was

00:42:37.699 --> 00:42:41.247
a very active researcher in the
colleges, why he asked me to be a social

00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:47.026
dean for research. And so I was able
as associate dean for research to

00:42:47.059 --> 00:42:50.467
pursue my own research as well as
encourage others, which gave me

00:42:50.500 --> 00:42:55.416
credibility of course with others to
do what I do, not what I tell you to

00:42:55.449 --> 00:42:59.807
do kind of thing. Uh So I could pursue
my own research and graduate

00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:03.887
studies and that and teach. Always
taught us at least one course a

00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:08.467
semester even when I was in
administration.

00:43:08.500 --> 00:43:14.367
And and then as when I was acting dean
in 91

00:43:14.400 --> 00:43:22.400
is when they announced the closure of
Williams Air Force Base and mason

00:43:22.900 --> 00:43:29.296
and it was one of governors appointed
re use of Williams Air Force Base,

00:43:29.329 --> 00:43:34.666
what was the best re use of it, which
turned out to be

00:43:34.699 --> 00:43:39.836
the community wanted the presence of a
issue there. We had an issue west

00:43:39.869 --> 00:43:44.166
at the time. And so

00:43:44.199 --> 00:43:50.347
my involvement there and then the
interest in a airport located university

00:43:50.380 --> 00:43:57.887
site uh indicated interest in
technical and involvement with industry and

00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:03.637
economic development and blah blah. So
I was responsible for starting the

00:44:03.670 --> 00:44:10.066
planning of that campus. And then when
we were ready to open in 96, of

00:44:10.099 --> 00:44:14.646
course, we had to go through the Air
Force process and then legislative

00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:19.356
process of creating it and Getting
money to renovate buildings and all

00:44:19.389 --> 00:44:24.697
that stuff. But we opened in 96 and I
was officially designated as the

00:44:24.730 --> 00:44:29.526
provost of that campus, which is sort
of as opposed to provost of this

00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:34.236
camp, as the provost at that campus in
west. It was sort of the ceo of

00:44:34.269 --> 00:44:37.206
that site. So you're worried about
everything, not just the academic

00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:43.646
program. And so, and that was
essentially I and essentially worked full

00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:49.977
time from 93, part time before that,
but full time from 93 until my

00:44:50.010 --> 00:44:57.407
retirement and 04. So that's 11 years
I spent full time and getting a new

00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:03.217
campus started. Was that always a goal
of a s, you have an east campus or

00:45:03.250 --> 00:45:09.137
how did that come about? When, when
Aladdin Core first came in his

00:45:09.170 --> 00:45:14.157
inaugural address,

00:45:14.190 --> 00:45:20.276
1990, maybe something like that. He
talked about the need of the

00:45:20.309 --> 00:45:25.856
university to expand to accommodate
students from obvious explosion

00:45:25.889 --> 00:45:30.546
population. And so we needed to start
planning and thinking about, And as

00:45:30.579 --> 00:45:37.927
you three called it. And, and then
when the closure of this Air Force Base

00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:45.960
was announced uh, in 91 And they
actually closed 93, um, that was sort of

00:45:46.329 --> 00:45:50.137
an obvious thing. We had an issue West
and we didn't have anything towards

00:45:50.170 --> 00:45:57.037
the east and here was land that the
Air Force closure law allowed you to

00:45:57.070 --> 00:46:02.927
use for educational purposes if and
get the land all free if you had the

00:46:02.960 --> 00:46:05.907
justification the need because of the
growth and all that sort of thing.

00:46:05.940 --> 00:46:12.796
So we went through the process of
applying to get it. And so we got 610

00:46:12.829 --> 00:46:18.046
acres with

00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:22.236
two million square feet of space of
buildings, existing buildings, a lot

00:46:22.269 --> 00:46:26.646
of more houses,

00:46:26.679 --> 00:46:31.356
uh, free, absolutely free. We still
needed money to operate them and

00:46:31.389 --> 00:46:35.606
change them to an academic institution
and all that sort of thing. So that

00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:41.126
was just sort of, um, unique
opportunity. And probably before the

00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:47.986
university would have planned to
expand west was a different basis. It was

00:46:48.019 --> 00:46:52.037
created by the legislators to have a
west side presence of the university.

00:46:52.070 --> 00:46:57.887
And so the university didn't plan that
campus, but um, This one then was

00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:02.916
planned because of that target of
opportunity.

00:47:02.949 --> 00:47:07.617
Well, the opportunity became there and
then we had, you know, some years

00:47:07.650 --> 00:47:13.447
to plan it and to plan it in a way,

00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:21.480
which I found very interesting and
challenging and uh, um, meaningful in

00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:27.166
to develop a campus, which was not
just a watered down version of the main

00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:32.666
campus to have unique programs there
that didn't exist in maine to

00:47:32.699 --> 00:47:39.747
transfer programs off main to that
campus to develop separate and

00:47:39.780 --> 00:47:46.026
equitable, uh, part of the university
rather than just extension, like a

00:47:46.059 --> 00:47:50.977
site offer courses. And so we were
unique in doing that so much so that

00:47:51.010 --> 00:47:55.287
when Crowe came, he said, hey, this is
a polytechnic kind of campus and

00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:59.597
that's what we should call it when he
was here on his interview and came

00:47:59.630 --> 00:48:04.887
to east and I told him around that's
his, his reaction. And it took him a

00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:08.456
couple of years to do it. But it is
now called the polytechnic campus

00:48:08.489 --> 00:48:16.489
because it followed, it followed. Our
design was to create programs that

00:48:17.030 --> 00:48:22.657
we called directly met the needs of
society, meaning the more professional

00:48:22.690 --> 00:48:27.936
jobs, the career oriented jobs as
opposed to liberal arts education.

00:48:27.969 --> 00:48:31.717
Nothing wrong with that. But the main
campus did that very well. And so if

00:48:31.750 --> 00:48:36.436
we had the more professional programs
and geared towards where the demands

00:48:36.469 --> 00:48:43.276
of society, we needed these kinds of
career path individuals then and, and

00:48:43.309 --> 00:48:46.847
if we had programs which didn't for
the most part duplicate the main

00:48:46.880 --> 00:48:52.097
campus and meet that demand. And so
that's why we, uh, we had those kinds

00:48:52.130 --> 00:48:56.307
of programs which started taking on
this characteristic of a polytechnic,

00:48:56.340 --> 00:49:00.017
that's not what we had in mind when we
started. It was only uniqueness and

00:49:00.050 --> 00:49:08.050
identity of that was separate and
credible compare with me.

00:49:08.170 --> 00:49:13.146
Obviously it has the aviation. Yes.
And we had that before. And that was

00:49:13.179 --> 00:49:17.956
an engineering. And that was another
thing. I'm sure that President

00:49:17.989 --> 00:49:22.847
Couture was inclined, asked me to lead
that effort because it had had an

00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:28.447
aviation program. We had a school of
engineering technology which is

00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:34.506
within the College of Engineering and
Applied Sciences. And, and they are

00:49:34.539 --> 00:49:38.267
sort of considered applied engineer.
They're, they're more hands on

00:49:38.300 --> 00:49:42.876
oriented and they had a flight program
and, and airport management program

00:49:42.909 --> 00:49:48.637
and so forth for years and years uh
and pretty well known um in the

00:49:48.670 --> 00:49:55.017
country, even the engineering
technology school was well known but

00:49:55.050 --> 00:50:00.086
overshadowed by engineering in the
college and and university. So um it

00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:06.526
was decided to move those programs to
to to that campus which gave them

00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:10.727
direct unique programs.

00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:17.666
And due to the new engineering dean
that came in, he also wanted a

00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:22.046
division of what was called
agriculture moved out of the engineering

00:50:22.079 --> 00:50:27.276
college. And so they didn't have too
many choices but to move to east and

00:50:27.309 --> 00:50:33.017
again, the only agricultural related
program at at issue Even though it

00:50:33.050 --> 00:50:37.327
had been changed in 1982, B

00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:40.327
limited to agribusiness.

00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:43.126
We had a

00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:49.727
experimental farm Price and Elliot um
major production agriculture

00:50:49.760 --> 00:50:57.106
operation really, which was and a
dairy herd of 300 and some had and 100

00:50:57.139 --> 00:51:01.787
horses and pigs and sheeps and
chickens and alfalfa fields and and all

00:51:01.820 --> 00:51:07.126
that. Uh and in 1979,

00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:11.876
which is about the time I became a
social dean, uh They, the border

00:51:11.909 --> 00:51:15.267
regions told us to get out of that
business of production, agriculture,

00:51:15.300 --> 00:51:19.747
that they were trying to define the
three universities more clearly and

00:51:19.780 --> 00:51:23.057
that you have a was to do that would
be a big school, they were to do

00:51:23.090 --> 00:51:27.736
production agriculture issue was to do
agribusiness and n au was to do

00:51:27.769 --> 00:51:30.736
forestry and that was sort of the
division of responsibility and ag

00:51:30.769 --> 00:51:34.646
related things. And so which turned
out to be a very good thing, but they

00:51:34.679 --> 00:51:41.146
also told us to get rid of that
production farm and and we were very much

00:51:41.179 --> 00:51:46.157
afraid, you know, we sold off all of
the livestock and tore down the

00:51:46.190 --> 00:51:49.467
buildings and all that sort of thing.
We're afraid that people downtown

00:51:49.500 --> 00:51:52.097
just gonna sell that and put it in the
general coffer. And that's why we

00:51:52.130 --> 00:51:56.816
came up with actually in my office
Roland Hayden and I came up with the

00:51:56.849 --> 00:52:01.916
thought of we should make it into a
research park and try to complement

00:52:01.949 --> 00:52:06.077
the engineering school and other that
resource that was in the college.

00:52:06.110 --> 00:52:10.697
And so we did that. So you were
responsible for that whole changeover.

00:52:10.730 --> 00:52:16.947
Well, certainly the concept we
started, but engineering promoted that. Uh

00:52:16.980 --> 00:52:20.396
and and we called in Rudy Campbell
very quickly who was on the border

00:52:20.429 --> 00:52:26.816
regions at the time. And um and later
came back on for another term but

00:52:26.849 --> 00:52:31.486
got him to champion it through the
border regions and then through the

00:52:31.519 --> 00:52:35.396
legislature took special legislation
to do that to create a university

00:52:35.429 --> 00:52:41.657
Research Park, certain tax provisions
and so forth. And so and and as it

00:52:41.690 --> 00:52:46.017
turns out after my retirement a year
ago,

00:52:46.050 --> 00:52:48.967
President Crow called me and asked me
if I would serve as the President of

00:52:49.000 --> 00:52:53.456
Research Park, which is, I had thought
about that, but it's sort of full

00:52:53.489 --> 00:52:56.787
circle that made made a lot of sense.
I was thinking cause I knew that you

00:52:56.820 --> 00:53:00.197
were just appointed last year, but I
didn't know about your early

00:53:00.230 --> 00:53:04.646
connection with the research park. So
agriculture was by then under

00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:09.017
engineering, it always has been
miller,

00:53:09.050 --> 00:53:12.756
that was all under College of
Engineering. It's called a division of

00:53:12.789 --> 00:53:18.967
agriculture and then there was a
division of engineering technology and

00:53:19.000 --> 00:53:24.416
there was a division of construction
and

00:53:24.449 --> 00:53:28.367
a school of engineering. Those were
the title shoes, but they all reported

00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:35.086
to the Dean of Engineering and and
Thompson, the an old rancher and

00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:40.586
agricultural based person, it was very
compatible with him and probably

00:53:40.619 --> 00:53:43.637
with the Ag people.

00:53:43.670 --> 00:53:48.177
And that was my trauma nationality
with with Thompson that why he evolved

00:53:48.210 --> 00:53:54.287
into my sort of pseudo father over all
those years. Um so it was

00:53:54.320 --> 00:53:56.916
compatible

00:53:56.949 --> 00:54:02.407
and and the egg people uh felt just as
comfortable or more so with

00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:08.557
engineers than they would with
biologists or sociologists or whoever else

00:54:08.590 --> 00:54:13.307
is in the university, at least,
engineers were more practical thinking

00:54:13.340 --> 00:54:18.006
folks and more compatible. So yeah,
those, those were all elements of

00:54:18.039 --> 00:54:21.867
engineering of the Engineering College
College of Engineering and Applied

00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:27.077
Sciences, those are the applied
sciences. Okay. I was wondering why I had

00:54:27.110 --> 00:54:34.617
such a big title. What wasn't there a
necessity or something in the law

00:54:34.650 --> 00:54:42.006
that the state university did have to
have some aspect of agriculture,

00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:44.537
there's some,

00:54:44.570 --> 00:54:50.736
well there's a there's a land grant, a
national land grant bill, which set

00:54:50.769 --> 00:54:57.477
up an ag school in each state. And
that was in the 1880s. And almost all

00:54:57.510 --> 00:55:05.510
the states had colleges or
universities then. And so the new egg, it's an

00:55:05.690 --> 00:55:10.407
agricultural mechanic, which means
agriculture and engineering again. And

00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:16.477
the traditional coupling they were
given land and money special federal

00:55:16.510 --> 00:55:20.206
money to establish those in each of
the states. So each state had a

00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:26.456
agricultural college of some note. And
but at that time Arizona didn't

00:55:26.489 --> 00:55:32.827
have any universities in 1880 and they
both started with, and most schools

00:55:32.860 --> 00:55:37.416
like texas A and M. There's the
university of texas existed long before

00:55:37.449 --> 00:55:43.796
the land grant University of Oklahoma
Kansas holders. And so the Ag

00:55:43.829 --> 00:55:49.206
colleges became the state colleges,
Kansas state

00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:54.287
texas A and M. In that case Oklahoma
state, those were all black colleges

00:55:54.320 --> 00:56:00.387
and engineering and but but Arizona
didn't have it. So do you have a, is

00:56:00.420 --> 00:56:07.227
the land grant school in Arizona And
it was the only college until 1958.

00:56:07.260 --> 00:56:10.166
He only had one college in the whole
state or one university in the whole

00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:13.867
state. So that's been the land grant
college. So they had to charter

00:56:13.900 --> 00:56:19.887
nationally and statewide for
agriculture. It turns out the reason it grew

00:56:19.920 --> 00:56:25.677
here. This was the teacher's college
and um Tempe normal and and Arizona

00:56:25.710 --> 00:56:28.597
State Teachers College.

00:56:28.630 --> 00:56:34.287
Most of the agriculture in the state
was in this county Maricopa county

00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:40.447
used to rank a 2nd 3rd or fourth
largest producer of agricultural products

00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:46.256
in the United States part because it
was so large irrigation as a county

00:56:46.289 --> 00:56:52.856
goes. But all the agriculture was
here. And ag teachers being the

00:56:52.889 --> 00:56:57.456
teacher's college was a big thing. And
so that sort of evolved, not

00:56:57.489 --> 00:57:03.006
necessarily by design and charter into
a fairly large production oriented

00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:06.436
teacher I and and eggs

00:57:06.469 --> 00:57:09.396
and division

00:57:09.429 --> 00:57:12.967
and that. And that's the reason the
board region said, hey, we're

00:57:13.000 --> 00:57:16.756
duplicating here and we shouldn't do
that. It was hard for us at the time

00:57:16.789 --> 00:57:20.597
, but it was the right thing.

00:57:20.630 --> 00:57:23.827
A little bit more about issue east,
you made that sound so simple that,

00:57:23.860 --> 00:57:29.456
you know, definitely air force and
started college out there. I don't

00:57:29.489 --> 00:57:34.267
think it was quite that easy, was it?
No, it wasn't for a variety of

00:57:34.300 --> 00:57:36.997
reasons.

00:57:37.030 --> 00:57:42.477
But um, it's a terrible bureaucratic
process. You have to go to to qualify

00:57:42.510 --> 00:57:50.510
for what's called a, a, a public
benefit conveyance. Most Air Force bases

00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:57.646
or the laws are geared to maximize the
income to the Air Force, which

00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:05.586
means you sell it off commercial
prices lands. But if there's a need for a

00:58:05.619 --> 00:58:12.577
public benefit and that mostly either
educational uses that needed by the

00:58:12.610 --> 00:58:17.347
local community for educational
purposes or an airport airports are almost

00:58:17.380 --> 00:58:21.657
universally subsidized by the federal
government. And so obviously an Air

00:58:21.690 --> 00:58:28.126
Force base as a potential reuse as an
airport. And when I was on the

00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:36.159
governor's reuse council after it was
announced too close in 91.

00:58:36.820 --> 00:58:42.986
I was the only educational person
person on that. But it was clear that

00:58:43.019 --> 00:58:50.626
That we had an opportunity of taking
4000 acres of prime land to put in

00:58:50.659 --> 00:58:55.617
some public use as opposed to selling
off because the local community

00:58:55.650 --> 00:59:00.617
wouldn't benefit necessary and just
selling more land off. And so we, we

00:59:00.650 --> 00:59:05.126
developed six different scenarios of
possible uses and one was just to

00:59:05.159 --> 00:59:09.867
make it into, I think we called it new
town, which was just houses like

00:59:09.900 --> 00:59:13.836
everything else in the East Valley.
Um, and saw it off that way to

00:59:13.869 --> 00:59:17.997
development. Uh, and, and the other
extreme was to make the whole thing

00:59:18.030 --> 00:59:23.546
into a cargo airport, international
cargo airport and then various stages

00:59:23.579 --> 00:59:29.967
in between, which would involve
different kinds of university or community

00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:34.486
college or other kinds of educational
uses

00:59:34.519 --> 00:59:38.396
that would have to be justified. But
that was not a difficult thing for

00:59:38.429 --> 00:59:40.986
the growth of Arizona

00:59:41.019 --> 00:59:44.916
and in an airport in various
combinations. And then we went around to

00:59:44.949 --> 00:59:48.517
various communities saying what of
these do you like and not like and so

00:59:48.550 --> 00:59:53.747
forth. And the two things became very,
very clear in that process from the

00:59:53.780 --> 00:59:59.727
communities surrounding one was they
wanted a national presence I think

00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:05.557
just because there was actually West
and East Siders felt they deserve

01:00:05.590 --> 01:00:10.686
campus as well. But it also brings a
little more prestige. And just

01:00:10.719 --> 01:00:15.697
another Queen Creek Elementary school
being there kind of thing. Um, and

01:00:15.730 --> 01:00:19.307
the second thing they wanted was an
airport, even those people at the end

01:00:19.340 --> 01:00:25.977
of the runway. And I yeah, I found a
little peculiar and I only

01:00:26.010 --> 01:00:30.887
sort of sort of understood by the fact
that willie the name of the air

01:00:30.920 --> 01:00:34.947
Force base had always represented jobs
to them. And a lot of people had

01:00:34.980 --> 01:00:39.336
aviation related jobs there. And so
had an opportunity for employment. And

01:00:39.369 --> 01:00:47.369
so we ended up with a compromise
proposal that would how they viable

01:00:48.400 --> 01:00:54.796
airport and a major university
presence. But also we conceived it as being

01:00:54.829 --> 01:00:57.356
a

01:00:57.389 --> 01:01:02.767
an educational mall meaning that you
go there for your educational

01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:09.796
shopping needs, K through PhD all at
one site. And so we had a partnership

01:01:09.829 --> 01:01:12.477
of

01:01:12.510 --> 01:01:19.367
of the university community colleges,
uh the Maricopa district, not a

01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:27.400
particular college um and High schools
and grade schools are our K through

01:01:28.340 --> 01:01:36.340
12 and so and that's indeed how it
evolved. But it was by design and but

01:01:36.500 --> 01:01:44.256
that was a ah it's one thing to do
that but another thing to get the money

01:01:44.289 --> 01:01:49.756
to do it. And so we we proposed that
and with some exceptions, the Air

01:01:49.789 --> 01:01:53.947
Force and made their decision that
most of would go to an airport and

01:01:53.980 --> 01:01:57.896
they'd support that airport and it's
owned by the surrounding cities and

01:01:57.929 --> 01:02:02.546
the indian reservation. Hello River in
this case.

01:02:02.579 --> 01:02:05.677
And the university got the 610

01:02:05.710 --> 01:02:12.867
or so acres of the 4000 that was
there. But we got all the buildings

01:02:12.900 --> 01:02:19.026
And all of the houses. There are 600
individual private houses which isn't

01:02:19.059 --> 01:02:24.807
a compliment housing for, for
university housing but it had a lot of land

01:02:24.840 --> 01:02:30.847
with it and so needed in the long
term. And then we had to get approval by

01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:35.456
the legislature and they asked us
questions like well to build a school

01:02:35.489 --> 01:02:39.137
from scratch for 5000 students, what
would it cost to remodel the

01:02:39.170 --> 01:02:44.416
buildings to serve 5000 students? and
also what would it cost us to go out

01:02:44.449 --> 01:02:50.396
and build a campus for 5000 students
on Maryland Maryland may be given to

01:02:50.429 --> 01:02:54.967
us. But what would it cost the state?
And we came up with estimates of I

01:02:55.000 --> 01:02:57.336
think $34.1

01:02:57.369 --> 01:03:01.517
million 5000

01:03:01.550 --> 01:03:08.267
seats. And um, probably something like
110 or 120 million to build

01:03:08.300 --> 01:03:12.316
building from scratch. And they all
thought that was a great idea. So they

01:03:12.349 --> 01:03:16.796
approved the creation of this campus
but it was something else to get

01:03:16.829 --> 01:03:21.706
money out of them to do that because
you'd go back and say, okay, you

01:03:21.739 --> 01:03:26.077
thought this was such a good deal. How
about two or $3 million dollars and

01:03:26.110 --> 01:03:33.166
so forth. And so we, and, and I
suppose uh

01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:38.697
the thing that I liked the least About
all my years of association, 36

01:03:38.730 --> 01:03:45.977
years with a shoe is that interaction
with the legislators.

01:03:46.010 --> 01:03:54.010
And it's not. Um, and it was a
requirement, it was our lifeblood because

01:03:54.699 --> 01:03:59.327
once we opened our doors, the students
just kept flocking in Growing at

01:03:59.360 --> 01:04:06.017
20% a year and there's no way for a
budget to grow 20% a year.

01:04:06.050 --> 01:04:11.717
And we didn't have facilities. We had
Old World War II barracks and all

01:04:11.750 --> 01:04:16.296
kinds of things. A lot of the stuff
was built in the 40s and it was just a

01:04:16.329 --> 01:04:24.329
real painful process to go begging for
resources to to run a campus and we

01:04:25.329 --> 01:04:32.577
, we never did have them enough to do.
And even if you had good times and

01:04:32.610 --> 01:04:37.807
generous legislature and this was in
In the 90s where the economics of the

01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:43.657
state and the budgets were fine and
they in many respects retreated during

01:04:43.690 --> 01:04:47.927
that time that they should have been
investing. But ah it was just a very

01:04:47.960 --> 01:04:55.717
painful process to get resources and
then to watch the, the staff and the

01:04:55.750 --> 01:05:02.947
faculty struggle with trying to
educate the students in the facilities and

01:05:02.980 --> 01:05:10.557
without support, Basic support needed
to do it. So that was the most

01:05:10.590 --> 01:05:13.756
unpleasant thing.

01:05:13.789 --> 01:05:20.017
But we were able to develop a
camaraderie and I guess it's in mutual

01:05:20.050 --> 01:05:28.050
suffering where you've developed
camaraderie a better sense and and that

01:05:28.630 --> 01:05:34.077
it made it not a plush place to work
for sure. But it was a fairly

01:05:34.110 --> 01:05:39.666
pleasant place to work and certainly
emphasized those kinds of

01:05:39.699 --> 01:05:46.456
relationships and to be friendly and
speak to everybody on campus that

01:05:46.489 --> 01:05:51.887
cost time to do that. So at least be
happy in your work and the things

01:05:51.920 --> 01:05:55.767
that we could control. And so I don't,
I think that people were terribly

01:05:55.800 --> 01:06:01.037
unhappy. It was just a terrible
handicap to try to do your job. And I

01:06:01.070 --> 01:06:05.577
don't, I mean to emphasize the
negative points of all that, but it's that

01:06:05.610 --> 01:06:11.657
was probably the most gruesome thing
to endure and in my years. But on the

01:06:11.690 --> 01:06:18.026
other hand, the creation of something
new from scratch to influence and we

01:06:18.059 --> 01:06:23.017
did this collectively, decide on what
sort of the mission should be and

01:06:23.050 --> 01:06:27.137
what we should do to achieve it. And
uh, how do you develop your own

01:06:27.170 --> 01:06:32.747
identity within a larger university?
And those are all

01:06:32.780 --> 01:06:38.347
major challenging and very satisfying

01:06:38.380 --> 01:06:42.986
things to be engaged in. And certainly
besides being the frustrating part

01:06:43.019 --> 01:06:49.146
with the legislature and the budget is
also the most satisfying part

01:06:49.179 --> 01:06:55.296
of my years at university sort of
beyond the personal, you know, of your

01:06:55.329 --> 01:06:59.986
own career development and that sort
of thing. That was that was fun and

01:07:00.019 --> 01:07:04.026
interesting and exciting as well. But
to do something for more of the

01:07:04.059 --> 01:07:10.566
common good was even a greater level
of satisfaction. It would be very

01:07:10.599 --> 01:07:15.557
different though that CSU East was
built from existing buildings and roads

01:07:15.590 --> 01:07:22.347
and everything, whereas a sus started
with bare ground and designed it.

01:07:22.380 --> 01:07:26.316
But that was created like I said by
the Westside legislators, they wanted

01:07:26.349 --> 01:07:31.066
that. And so they funded it and they
Gave the money up front to build a

01:07:31.099 --> 01:07:37.037
campus for 5000 students. Oh yeah

01:07:37.070 --> 01:07:42.637
and we suffered I think our creation
helped issue West more than anything

01:07:42.670 --> 01:07:46.506
else that had happened to them because
now there was more than just a

01:07:46.539 --> 01:07:53.546
issue and issue West and the the
watered down version on the west side

01:07:53.579 --> 01:07:57.836
kind of image that they had and and
they tied their hands behind them in a

01:07:57.869 --> 01:08:03.836
couple of ways. That was my opinion on
fear to expect them to prosper. But

01:08:03.869 --> 01:08:10.736
um when we were starting East we
suffered partly because of that

01:08:10.769 --> 01:08:17.036
conditions under which West was
created even to the point of two years ago

01:08:17.069 --> 01:08:24.937
after our current governor had been in
two to the office,

01:08:24.970 --> 01:08:31.237
she had the wrong impression. And not
only did they give them money for

01:08:31.270 --> 01:08:36.937
Physical facilities to serve 5000
students upfront. They also gave them a

01:08:36.970 --> 01:08:41.227
budget to serve 5000 students. So
here's the money that you need to hire

01:08:41.260 --> 01:08:45.706
all the faculty and all the services
and And all those kinds of things to

01:08:45.739 --> 01:08:50.517
serve a campus of 5000 students And
you know what do you do with all that

01:08:50.550 --> 01:08:56.397
money if you only have 1000 students
or 2000 students and so forth. And so

01:08:56.430 --> 01:09:00.416
And they hired all new professors from
scratch which meant they came in at

01:09:00.449 --> 01:09:03.727
the higher end of the spectrum as
opposed to people have been at AS. U.

01:09:03.760 --> 01:09:09.177
Maine for 20 or 30 years. And so they
had higher salaries, very low

01:09:09.210 --> 01:09:14.446
teaching loads, nice facilities, all
these kinds of images and their

01:09:14.479 --> 01:09:18.296
agreement was that we'll give you the
money to do it. And other than

01:09:18.329 --> 01:09:21.807
inflation once you get your students
up there then we'll give you more

01:09:21.840 --> 01:09:26.496
money to develop. So as you east came
along they gave us a million or two

01:09:26.529 --> 01:09:34.336
at a time for facilities and operating
funds which went through a S. U. Ah

01:09:34.369 --> 01:09:39.406
which had a provost that did not
approve of starting a new campus which

01:09:39.439 --> 01:09:44.737
made it that much more difficult
internally. But it also

01:09:44.770 --> 01:09:50.006
I had this image it was created must
be like ask you West. And so when I

01:09:50.039 --> 01:09:55.477
talked to the governor a couple of
years ago she came out to the East

01:09:55.510 --> 01:10:00.187
valley and address these valid people.
And so I was opportunity to sit at

01:10:00.220 --> 01:10:05.116
the table with her and I talked about
the need for funding issue east and

01:10:05.149 --> 01:10:10.786
she said well you're not big enough to
deserve funding yet. And it was

01:10:10.819 --> 01:10:16.046
just based on that model that they had
that they had to wait till they got

01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:22.527
5000 students before they in this
agreement could get more operating funds

01:10:22.560 --> 01:10:26.427
and we were struggling year after year
trying to build up. So we didn't

01:10:26.460 --> 01:10:30.536
have that front end budget. And but
yeah we had the image that that must

01:10:30.569 --> 01:10:37.237
be how we're operating and so at the
highest level. So anyway uh huh uh

01:10:37.270 --> 01:10:43.086
West has evolved but also the watching
of West evolved. And the difficulty

01:10:43.119 --> 01:10:48.416
they had is gave us a major advantage
as well that we need to do something

01:10:48.449 --> 01:10:54.626
unique. We need to have not an uh an
image of a issue light which is a

01:10:54.659 --> 01:11:00.347
term that's sometimes used but have
unique programs and uh our own

01:11:00.380 --> 01:11:06.046
reputation and my view and others. If
you have non duplicated programs you

01:11:06.079 --> 01:11:13.366
have a chance. If you have a the psych
department at west and the psych

01:11:13.399 --> 01:11:17.756
department at main and the psych
department at east, the main ones where

01:11:17.789 --> 01:11:20.467
he's going to be the dominant one and
they're going to be the best ones

01:11:20.500 --> 01:11:25.937
and so forth so on. But if you have a
flight program at East that doesn't

01:11:25.970 --> 01:11:29.527
duplicate anyway, hey it's the best at
A. S. U. To start with and then you

01:11:29.560 --> 01:11:33.576
can work on the national and
international reputation. Are there any

01:11:33.609 --> 01:11:37.746
challenges? I've often wondered with
the Maricopa community colleges and

01:11:37.779 --> 01:11:41.126
the city of Mesa as part of the
airport. You know, the different

01:11:41.159 --> 01:11:47.227
government entities working together
out there, the community colleges. Um

01:11:47.260 --> 01:11:55.260
Well from a pragmatic point of view
and getting the campus started. Um

01:11:55.260 --> 01:12:01.416
Besides this philosophy we developed
of a multi educational institution

01:12:01.449 --> 01:12:06.666
thing and we then applied to the Air
Force to have some set aside for the

01:12:06.699 --> 01:12:10.456
university, some land set aside for
the community colleges and they had an

01:12:10.489 --> 01:12:16.017
elementary school there that we set
aside suffering. Um So we did that

01:12:16.050 --> 01:12:20.187
philosophy point of view, but from a
practical point of view, we were

01:12:20.220 --> 01:12:23.946
going to try to move programs off the
main campus to there, which meant

01:12:23.979 --> 01:12:28.006
you had specialists in agribusiness
and had specialists and all the

01:12:28.039 --> 01:12:32.206
various engineering technologies, but
they can't teach freshman english

01:12:32.239 --> 01:12:39.687
and sociology and psychology and all
those kinds of things. And I I knew

01:12:39.720 --> 01:12:43.336
that we weren't going to get the
Legislature money from the Legislature to

01:12:43.369 --> 01:12:48.406
hire those kinds of liberal arts
people. And so it was a very practical

01:12:48.439 --> 01:12:52.437
thing to say. Let's have a partnership
with community college, that's your

01:12:52.470 --> 01:12:57.696
business, You do it all here and teach
a higher students, all the 1st and

01:12:57.729 --> 01:13:01.756
2nd year courses required before they
start taking their majors and the

01:13:01.789 --> 01:13:06.897
programs were moving out. So it was a
necessity in my mind of having a

01:13:06.930 --> 01:13:12.607
partnership and we call it a
partnership in baccalaureate Education and

01:13:12.640 --> 01:13:19.557
you could go to an environment that,
um, that was sort of a university

01:13:19.590 --> 01:13:25.237
campus, but there are community
college courses taught there. And since

01:13:25.270 --> 01:13:29.076
most of the students in those
community college courses were our freshmen

01:13:29.109 --> 01:13:32.916
sophomores qualified for admission to
the university kind of thing.

01:13:32.949 --> 01:13:36.967
They're also a cut above the community
college student that will admit

01:13:37.000 --> 01:13:43.286
anybody by definition and design. Um,
so the teachers liked in the

01:13:43.319 --> 01:13:46.446
community college like to teach at the
issue east campus because you know

01:13:46.479 --> 01:13:50.946
, they're good students in their
classes. And so they were very

01:13:50.979 --> 01:13:56.836
cooperative and very helpful and both
um MCC and and Chandler Gilbert

01:13:56.869 --> 01:14:01.607
community college and and providing
programs essentially for our students

01:14:01.640 --> 01:14:07.307
And and we also helped them in many
respects of

01:14:07.340 --> 01:14:12.687
of having. We instituted a new degree
for instance that the community

01:14:12.720 --> 01:14:19.576
college has suffered from the lack
they suffered from the lack of and that

01:14:19.609 --> 01:14:24.317
was most of the degrees given by the
community colleges were applied

01:14:24.350 --> 01:14:29.456
science degrees, their vocational e.
Oriented that they prepared people

01:14:29.489 --> 01:14:36.116
for a career instead of transfer day
issue. And so a lot of people came

01:14:36.149 --> 01:14:43.416
out with various specialty degrees.
But but the applied science degrees

01:14:43.449 --> 01:14:48.166
were not designed for articulation and
so they had no dead end system. So

01:14:48.199 --> 01:14:52.107
we designed a degree which

01:14:52.140 --> 01:14:56.387
gave them an educational alternative
so it was a working partnership. But

01:14:56.420 --> 01:15:00.076
a requirement from my point of view
now with the thought that as the

01:15:00.109 --> 01:15:04.336
campus evolves it'll probably evolved
start teaching all those other

01:15:04.369 --> 01:15:06.706
courses

01:15:06.739 --> 01:15:13.626
from S. U. As you of course in the
city of Mesa bank. They've been the

01:15:13.659 --> 01:15:18.097
major owner of the airport which means
that they subsidize it more than

01:15:18.130 --> 01:15:24.506
anybody else. It's a losing financial
operation and

01:15:24.539 --> 01:15:30.586
Mesa has forgotten the numbers but
it's something like

01:15:30.619 --> 01:15:32.807
80

01:15:32.840 --> 01:15:40.840
2% of the ownership of the airport.
Gilbert has 10%. Well once the the

01:15:41.350 --> 01:15:45.937
healer river indians came in and said
they wanted to join and so they were

01:15:45.970 --> 01:15:52.126
allowed to join the buy in to the
subsidy And they so they ended up with

01:15:52.159 --> 01:15:59.956
10% and Queen Creek had 2%. So I think
it's now 78% of masons, which means

01:15:59.989 --> 01:16:04.467
they pay that and means mesa, the city
of Mesa out of there, Their tax

01:16:04.500 --> 01:16:08.977
revenues are subsidizing $2-$3 million
dollars a year to keep that

01:16:09.010 --> 01:16:16.477
operation going. And so they weren't
for US resources, financial resource.

01:16:16.510 --> 01:16:21.336
And even though they realized the
economic development aspects that the

01:16:21.369 --> 01:16:25.946
campus brought to the area for their
purposes but they're not burnt in a

01:16:25.979 --> 01:16:30.927
position to give us money. Sure

01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:38.960
that's not true. But when ah

01:16:39.229 --> 01:16:44.317
when we looked like the air force was
going to give us The land, although

01:16:44.350 --> 01:16:47.517
they had to go through their process,
they even gave us three or $400,000

01:16:47.550 --> 01:16:51.296
to do a master plan for the campus
before they decided to give it to us

01:16:51.329 --> 01:16:57.987
officially. But when we got, when the
air force moved out in 93 and I was

01:16:58.020 --> 01:17:02.616
assuming full or full time
responsibility for the planning on campus, my

01:17:02.649 --> 01:17:10.446
wife and I sold her house in Gilbert
and moved into campus housing. We

01:17:10.479 --> 01:17:16.876
were the first residents on Williams
campus and actually lived there for

01:17:16.909 --> 01:17:22.397
quite a while. Just the two of us in
one house with gated guarded

01:17:22.430 --> 01:17:26.927
community Mesa police responsible for
security. So they stopped everybody

01:17:26.960 --> 01:17:30.567
to the gate with their weapons and so
forth. It's always a little

01:17:30.600 --> 01:17:33.097
different.

01:17:33.130 --> 01:17:40.847
Tell us why did you decide to do that?
Well you know I had career and a

01:17:40.880 --> 01:17:45.296
teacher and a researcher and
administrator and engineering all those years

01:17:45.329 --> 01:17:47.897
and

01:17:47.930 --> 01:17:52.286
as part of trying to build that image
right from the start that this is a

01:17:52.319 --> 01:17:55.296
dedicated serious thing. This isn't
something we're going to do on the

01:17:55.329 --> 01:18:02.387
side and part time or added part.

01:18:02.420 --> 01:18:07.546
And we've sold her house so that you
know we burned our bridges and and

01:18:07.579 --> 01:18:11.427
left there and I didn't have to go
around saying I'm committed to this

01:18:11.460 --> 01:18:17.786
campus and all those kind of things
that save me a lot of time that way.

01:18:17.819 --> 01:18:23.477
And so we and we lived there for five
or 6 years and moved out couple

01:18:23.510 --> 01:18:28.336
years I guess before I retired.

01:18:28.369 --> 01:18:33.057
Um We lived in the wing commander's
house which is the top guy there.

01:18:33.090 --> 01:18:38.217
Which was probably a step down from
houses we've lived in for 25 years.

01:18:38.250 --> 01:18:44.597
Before that It was a 2000 square foot
house and it was all vanilla and so

01:18:44.630 --> 01:18:52.630
forth is fine. No garage. That is
fine. But it it just told everybody that

01:18:54.819 --> 01:19:00.366
we're committed. Did you love travel
times? Yeah that's true. Although

01:19:00.399 --> 01:19:06.446
living in Gilbert that was pretty
close it turned out yeah. Right. Any

01:19:06.479 --> 01:19:10.656
other interesting um experiences that
stand out in your mind of your time

01:19:10.689 --> 01:19:17.286
at A. S. U. And memorable things that
happened?

01:19:17.319 --> 01:19:25.319
Well they experience which was you
know setting aside my professional

01:19:26.520 --> 01:19:34.520
um career and achievements and so
forth. And that um what I enjoy doing

01:19:35.210 --> 01:19:43.210
very much was in that transition of
the college From through the 80's

01:19:43.319 --> 01:19:48.887
From this teacher's college in the
late 70s, too

01:19:48.920 --> 01:19:53.746
much more balanced. It's not, and it's
still not a research kind of

01:19:53.779 --> 01:19:58.796
university, but it's so much more so
than it was and it was just about

01:19:58.829 --> 01:20:02.177
zero,

01:20:02.210 --> 01:20:06.376
but, and having the opportunity to
work at the college level and building

01:20:06.409 --> 01:20:12.076
up a incredible, respectable

01:20:12.109 --> 01:20:17.567
and competitive eventually engineering
school, which means building up the

01:20:17.600 --> 01:20:22.477
research part of it. We had an
outstanding

01:20:22.510 --> 01:20:27.996
teaching faculty before and turned out
a very good bachelor's degree in

01:20:28.029 --> 01:20:32.987
engineering. Stanford used to send
their recruiters down to, to our school

01:20:33.020 --> 01:20:37.277
to recruit students for their graduate
program

01:20:37.310 --> 01:20:40.897
because, you know, we didn't have a
credible program for them to go into.

01:20:40.930 --> 01:20:44.796
So it was a great recruiting ground
for them. Good, good solid engineering

01:20:44.829 --> 01:20:52.527
bachelor degree. Um, but you know, we
weren't respectable in the national

01:20:52.560 --> 01:20:58.326
scene because we were, so just a
teacher's college, which more category

01:20:58.359 --> 01:21:04.076
stick harvey mudd or some of those
lives undergraduate programs.

01:21:04.109 --> 01:21:10.177
So in order to orchestrate and build
that ah

01:21:10.210 --> 01:21:15.246
partnership with not only industry,
but at that time, the legislators were

01:21:15.279 --> 01:21:20.357
sort of a different oriented group of
people down there. Um, and they

01:21:20.390 --> 01:21:28.390
could realize the economic development
aspects of having the industry of

01:21:29.529 --> 01:21:32.987
Arizona going in and say, hey, we need
a good engineering school for our

01:21:33.020 --> 01:21:36.927
economic well being and therefore for
the state. And so they bought into

01:21:36.960 --> 01:21:43.796
that and they provided funds for new
faculty positions and the university

01:21:43.829 --> 01:21:48.687
, as you can imagine, took advantage
of that because we had a sellable

01:21:48.720 --> 01:21:56.720
product at the Legislature to get more
money. And so we build all kinds of

01:21:56.789 --> 01:22:02.006
things into that engineering program.
There's um, with arguments, you

01:22:02.039 --> 01:22:05.817
can't have a strong engineering school
without a strong math and physics

01:22:05.850 --> 01:22:10.177
and so forth department. So we got
positions for them to add to their

01:22:10.210 --> 01:22:17.916
departments. There's a center and law
for Technology and the law or

01:22:17.949 --> 01:22:23.006
something like that. We include all
these things into this engineering

01:22:23.039 --> 01:22:27.557
excellence program. We'd go to the
legislature. So we've got a lot of, a

01:22:27.590 --> 01:22:34.727
lot of new, new faculty and so I was
able to participating and we, I think

01:22:34.760 --> 01:22:40.796
we hired Probably in those five or 6
years, probably hired 120 new

01:22:40.829 --> 01:22:45.786
professors in engineering. Um, a lot
of more replacements and so forth,

01:22:45.819 --> 01:22:53.267
But we had that many. So we had a
chance to hire a new oriented faculty.

01:22:53.300 --> 01:22:59.317
Um, I became responsible for all the
space and planning for the college,

01:22:59.350 --> 01:23:05.006
which meant the engineering research
center, which is a building. Um, it

01:23:05.039 --> 01:23:08.046
was one of the first buildings we
built and the first one that was ever

01:23:08.079 --> 01:23:11.366
authorized by bonding.

01:23:11.399 --> 01:23:15.147
We always had to get legislative
dollars before we could build a building

01:23:15.180 --> 01:23:21.307
before that. And so overseeing the
design and construction and operation

01:23:21.340 --> 01:23:25.277
of physical facilities with something
new to me and I learned much more

01:23:25.310 --> 01:23:28.717
about construction, I cared to know.
So all of those were growing

01:23:28.750 --> 01:23:35.456
experiences for me during the 80's and
we really, the rate of change of

01:23:35.489 --> 01:23:43.489
the university in my opinion was much
greater in the 80s than in the 90s.

01:23:44.699 --> 01:23:52.076
It was the 80s that we started from a
Teaching Orientation School and in a

01:23:52.109 --> 01:24:00.109
fairly short time of 90 or so. Um when
Larry core came in, we had built up

01:24:01.260 --> 01:24:06.576
a fairly credible, balanced university
research education service kind of

01:24:06.609 --> 01:24:11.796
orientation we didn't have before And
then the 90s are sort of maturing of

01:24:11.829 --> 01:24:17.727
that. And now in the 2000 people, um
think we're going through a lot of

01:24:17.760 --> 01:24:22.866
changes and we are, but on a
percentage basis we going to greater changes

01:24:22.899 --> 01:24:28.187
percentage wise than In the 80s and
the 90s, probably in the 70s, it

01:24:28.220 --> 01:24:34.557
started in 80s and 90s. But it's so
it's just a continuing

01:24:34.590 --> 01:24:40.656
growth and maturing of a major
university and all of the various

01:24:40.689 --> 01:24:44.826
presidents were very instrumental and
appropriate for the time that they

01:24:44.859 --> 01:24:46.857
served.

01:24:46.890 --> 01:24:51.477
Nelson was such a big relief after
Suada.

01:24:51.510 --> 01:24:53.557
And

01:24:53.590 --> 01:24:58.796
and then laddie core came in and
established even greater uh interaction

01:24:58.829 --> 01:25:04.206
with community at large and maturing
at the university and sophistication

01:25:04.239 --> 01:25:09.996
and so forth. And then Michael comes
in with with the needed talents at

01:25:10.029 --> 01:25:13.506
this point of development in my
opinion and all these people served

01:25:13.539 --> 01:25:17.666
extremely well for the time that they
were there. And we're very fortunate

01:25:17.699 --> 01:25:21.357
to have had their leadership during
those times and none of them could

01:25:21.390 --> 01:25:25.987
have served at another one of those
times, so and we're very fortunate

01:25:26.020 --> 01:25:28.857
that way.

01:25:28.890 --> 01:25:33.557
I'm going to ask you about the
President's but you covered that.

01:25:33.590 --> 01:25:39.956
Is there any one thing that you'd like
to be remembered for?

01:25:39.989 --> 01:25:47.989
Oh,

01:25:49.890 --> 01:25:56.857
uh huh. I don't, I think I've

01:25:56.890 --> 01:26:01.527
I think in terms of wanting to be
remembered remembered in my mind for

01:26:01.560 --> 01:26:07.347
what I contributed to is sufficient

01:26:07.380 --> 01:26:12.397
and there's a certain amount of and
one of the reasons I started

01:26:12.430 --> 01:26:15.916
concentrating more on the
administrative things, I'd sort of accomplished

01:26:15.949 --> 01:26:21.246
more of the technical national
international recognition, my little

01:26:21.279 --> 01:26:26.017
research area that that I could and so
it was sort of time to contribute

01:26:26.050 --> 01:26:29.126
some other way

01:26:29.159 --> 01:26:33.046
and the building of the engineering
school even in that case though, since

01:26:33.079 --> 01:26:39.487
I wasn't a deny wasn't high visibility
person, but I was the one behind

01:26:39.520 --> 01:26:44.796
the scenes, making, helping with the
strategy and and making sure things

01:26:44.829 --> 01:26:50.576
didn't happen. Uh and that was fine
with me. I mean I don't I don't need

01:26:50.609 --> 01:26:56.217
to be remembered for that but in my
mind uh the satisfaction of what we

01:26:56.250 --> 01:27:00.647
accomplished during that time and
obviously the creation of East uh huh

01:27:00.680 --> 01:27:06.206
which by most people's measure would
be a very successful creation of a

01:27:06.239 --> 01:27:12.586
new campus,

01:27:12.619 --> 01:27:16.076
anything that you wanted to do or
there were disappointments for you that

01:27:16.109 --> 01:27:22.147
didn't happen.

01:27:22.180 --> 01:27:29.677
Ah Oh not on a personal basis I guess.
Um The biggest disappointment is

01:27:29.710 --> 01:27:36.366
that we could have done so much more
uh and grown faster at east had, we

01:27:36.399 --> 01:27:44.399
have respectable resources and so that
may be the only regret.

01:27:45.180 --> 01:27:51.166
You know, how do you start a technical
and nationally competitive programs

01:27:51.199 --> 01:27:56.597
which we have, they're in their areas
are not high visibility areas, but

01:27:56.630 --> 01:28:01.437
they're nationally competitive
programs in their areas.

01:28:01.470 --> 01:28:04.336
How do you do that without

01:28:04.369 --> 01:28:12.369
respectable library french? And we all
realized and starting and and uh

01:28:12.670 --> 01:28:19.677
1990 that um Or early 90s of a new
campus that the libraries of the future

01:28:19.710 --> 01:28:23.376
are just going to be information
storage systems that are available

01:28:23.409 --> 01:28:29.286
everywhere to everybody instead of
collections of volumes, which has

01:28:29.319 --> 01:28:33.807
always been a traditional measure of
how good a library was, how big it

01:28:33.840 --> 01:28:39.036
was and how many special collections
and so forth. But we were starting in

01:28:39.069 --> 01:28:43.057
that transition period, you know, 2030
years from now that all the

01:28:43.090 --> 01:28:46.557
information retrieval.

01:28:46.590 --> 01:28:50.387
And so how do you start a library and
serve the students at the same time

01:28:50.420 --> 01:28:55.727
of being geared towards the future? I
mean all those are our challenges.

01:28:55.760 --> 01:29:01.187
And I think the, the students maybe
had to suffer because of a lot of

01:29:01.220 --> 01:29:06.467
those things, which I feel badly
about. But you know, it's hard to start

01:29:06.500 --> 01:29:12.237
from scratch and get some place
without and without

01:29:12.270 --> 01:29:17.956
being less than all of the amenities
of a major university campus. And but

01:29:17.989 --> 01:29:23.637
it's not a personal thing, I don't how
I've always lived my life, not half

01:29:23.670 --> 01:29:27.847
to say, I wish I had done something
else than what I've done, ironically

01:29:27.880 --> 01:29:33.076
one of the first buildings library,
it's not ironic, I mean it's it's

01:29:33.109 --> 01:29:37.277
that's the foundation of the
university and in that sense it's a very

01:29:37.310 --> 01:29:42.897
logical thing to do and it's a very
nice library

01:29:42.930 --> 01:29:46.027
and one of those great facilities I
was talking about that, they just

01:29:46.060 --> 01:29:50.576
started with Um even though it, you
know, it may be an artifact in 20

01:29:50.609 --> 01:29:58.609
years in a sense, um but that's um
yeah, that's um okay. Mhm.

01:30:00.739 --> 01:30:08.027
I suppose one of the things that it
has been gratifying that people have

01:30:08.060 --> 01:30:14.656
um described me as I guess in many
respects it was not a conscious thing

01:30:14.689 --> 01:30:18.927
but of being

01:30:18.960 --> 01:30:26.960
honest and fair in my dealings and
certainly I've tried to do that, but as

01:30:27.479 --> 01:30:31.967
I hear at retirements and going away
parties and all that kind of thing,

01:30:32.000 --> 01:30:36.967
kind of comments by people uh that
seems to be what they remember and

01:30:37.000 --> 01:30:42.616
that's good, that's good. Did you
think when you came out to Arizona to a

01:30:42.649 --> 01:30:45.336
issue that that would be this would be
where you'd be for the rest of your

01:30:45.369 --> 01:30:51.927
life. No, not necessarily, but

01:30:51.960 --> 01:30:56.517
if you enjoy what you're doing, that's
where you should be and again, both

01:30:56.550 --> 01:31:04.227
the outdoor, physical environment as
well as um as the work environment,

01:31:04.260 --> 01:31:10.177
both very stimulating as I've alluded
to a few times I was interested in

01:31:10.210 --> 01:31:15.427
cattle ranching and the improvement of
range conditions, land conditions

01:31:15.460 --> 01:31:21.496
and so I've been able to Be a cattle
Rancher on the side for the last 30

01:31:21.529 --> 01:31:28.826
years in addition to my other things
and it served me very well.

01:31:28.859 --> 01:31:32.427
Um two

01:31:32.460 --> 01:31:40.460
decrease the mental pressure and
anxiety of university stress and

01:31:41.159 --> 01:31:49.159
pressures and so forth that I've been
involved with wine, go out and

01:31:49.960 --> 01:31:54.307
literally deal with life and death
situations in this case and animals.

01:31:54.340 --> 01:31:58.746
But it's a way of keeping your foot on
the ground and keeping your

01:31:58.779 --> 01:32:05.937
orientation straight uh relative to
the world about you and not getting

01:32:05.970 --> 01:32:10.696
grossed and think the academic
community is the real world. And so that

01:32:10.729 --> 01:32:14.916
served me very well psychologically
probably during all those years. Where

01:32:14.949 --> 01:32:20.267
is your? Well it's in the Superstition
Mountains which on the southern

01:32:20.300 --> 01:32:24.946
edge which means I could could always,
regardless where we live get there

01:32:24.979 --> 01:32:31.647
in 45 minutes or so, but it's It's 100
years away. And operation and horse

01:32:31.680 --> 01:32:37.767
operation, very rugged country and end
of seven miles of dirt road and no

01:32:37.800 --> 01:32:42.897
electricity. That's why it's solar
powered all these years. Uh so that's

01:32:42.930 --> 01:32:49.017
just been a good outlet for for me and
for my family I suppose larger

01:32:49.050 --> 01:32:53.107
branches well and for the last several
years I've also had a ranch up by

01:32:53.140 --> 01:32:58.036
Cholo and we actually move the cattle
truck them all the way up to colo

01:32:58.069 --> 01:33:03.977
and lakeside Pinetop area. Uh huh. And
so we have really two but we

01:33:04.010 --> 01:33:08.546
operate them sort of as one with being
down here and it works well when

01:33:08.579 --> 01:33:12.116
you're retired to have to go up there
with your cattle in the summertime

01:33:12.149 --> 01:33:14.616
back in the

01:33:14.649 --> 01:33:20.567
But it's we have about 350 mother cows
and then raise calves and it's all

01:33:20.600 --> 01:33:26.876
those in here. And so it's large
enough to be challenging and to be able

01:33:26.909 --> 01:33:29.876
to do things which improves the
quality of the land. So it's a little

01:33:29.909 --> 01:33:34.107
better when you leave it than when you
came. It's a very satisfying kind

01:33:34.140 --> 01:33:37.847
of surprised that you mentioned is on
the south side of the superstitions.

01:33:37.880 --> 01:33:42.946
It seems like the houses are creeping
right up when I was involved in the

01:33:42.979 --> 01:33:49.487
creation and other a group called the
Superstition erI Land Trust and just

01:33:49.520 --> 01:33:53.357
stepped down after five years being
president of the board of that. And

01:33:53.390 --> 01:33:57.277
that is to try to protect those
foothills along the wilderness area and

01:33:57.310 --> 01:34:02.727
our ranch there we have 10 miles of
common border with the Superstition

01:34:02.760 --> 01:34:07.076
wilderness area even though we're on
state trust lands and to preserve

01:34:07.109 --> 01:34:11.696
some of those foothills. So you don't
have the building the ones in Gold

01:34:11.729 --> 01:34:16.696
Canyon and others there That had been
built up in the last 20 years. That

01:34:16.729 --> 01:34:21.527
has always been private land. So there
hasn't been any any sale or

01:34:21.560 --> 01:34:25.546
degradation or conversion of state
trust lands to private. They've just

01:34:25.579 --> 01:34:30.586
been developed during that time. But
obviously they're in danger of that

01:34:30.619 --> 01:34:36.107
now. And one of the things that
evolved,

01:34:36.140 --> 01:34:42.267
we did some, some things with the Land
trust of doing suitability analysis

01:34:42.300 --> 01:34:46.616
for development, which is a pretty
straightforward thing this done and

01:34:46.649 --> 01:34:52.737
development were on uh and then did a
suitability analysis of for

01:34:52.770 --> 01:34:57.807
preservation or conservation in a very
similar terminology

01:34:57.840 --> 01:35:03.677
Kind of thing and overlaid them to
develop to develop a suitability map of

01:35:03.710 --> 01:35:06.647
what should be developed and what
should be conserved and that everything

01:35:06.680 --> 01:35:13.267
north of 60 up until the and so that's
been influential. And that area and

01:35:13.300 --> 01:35:19.866
with Panel County and that evolved
something I started when I became

01:35:19.899 --> 01:35:25.786
President of Valley Partnership. Uh
huh Business quality of Life

01:35:25.819 --> 01:35:32.756
organization, East Valley to take
Everything south of 60 all the way down

01:35:32.789 --> 01:35:39.767
the sand tans, Here's 250 sq mi of
state trust lands there and that's why

01:35:39.800 --> 01:35:42.906
there's a johnson ranch and these
other things because they have to jump

01:35:42.939 --> 01:35:47.307
over that state trust land to pick up
these little parcels of private land.

01:35:47.340 --> 01:35:52.296
And so I initiated and still pushing
for a project called Superstation

01:35:52.329 --> 01:35:58.496
vistas which is uh I plan to do master
planning for 250 square miles of

01:35:58.529 --> 01:36:05.036
land in a responsible way. Long term
planning way conservation of energy

01:36:05.069 --> 01:36:11.036
conservation of water. one owner so
that you have capability of doing

01:36:11.069 --> 01:36:15.817
planning like no one's ever had before
State Land Department and involved

01:36:15.850 --> 01:36:20.737
in trying to change and modified state
land department that would allow

01:36:20.770 --> 01:36:25.527
them to engage in those kinds of
things and that's an ongoing training and

01:36:25.560 --> 01:36:30.126
continuing sort of outgrowth. First of
my ranching and then of the land

01:36:30.159 --> 01:36:35.227
trust and now the state Land
Department reformation to and responsible

01:36:35.260 --> 01:36:38.996
planning for the state of Arizona,
that's what you're doing in retirement.

01:36:39.029 --> 01:36:45.597
Mhm. Retirement besides the research
park and a few other boards,

01:36:45.630 --> 01:36:53.256
another specialty at S. U. East. I
evolved of the uniqueness of providing

01:36:53.289 --> 01:36:57.796
programs to directly meet societal
needs obviously in need of societies

01:36:57.829 --> 01:37:03.467
and health care and the cost of health
care. So we developed a philosophy

01:37:03.500 --> 01:37:07.717
how can a little campus contributed to
that huge problem. We decided to

01:37:07.750 --> 01:37:15.706
emphasize not reducing the cost of
health care ah but to reduce the

01:37:15.739 --> 01:37:19.546
percentage of people who needed that
expensive healthcare meaning keeping

01:37:19.579 --> 01:37:24.756
people healthy. And so we developed a
special emphasis on that and the

01:37:24.789 --> 01:37:28.586
department of nutrition moved out to
join us and the Department of

01:37:28.619 --> 01:37:33.796
exercise and wellness joined us. We
started a new program in human health

01:37:33.829 --> 01:37:39.866
which was sort of a pre professional
program to let you go into to medical

01:37:39.899 --> 01:37:44.727
schools or health professions that
most of that evolved to the graduate

01:37:44.760 --> 01:37:50.227
level now. But it's not just alla
pasic medicine which doesn't push

01:37:50.260 --> 01:37:57.496
preventive medicine and healthy
living. Ah They only, you know, drug it or

01:37:57.529 --> 01:38:01.647
cut it out kind of approach and
they're so busy they don't have time not

01:38:01.680 --> 01:38:03.987
that they're against

01:38:04.020 --> 01:38:07.897
preventive medicine or or living
healthy but the other people, the al

01:38:07.930 --> 01:38:15.586
empathic of the osteopaths,
naturopathic, they all those kinds of holistic

01:38:15.619 --> 01:38:20.517
people addressed address that. And so
I became involved and I've been

01:38:20.550 --> 01:38:26.107
serving on the board of directors of a
nature pathetic medical college in

01:38:26.140 --> 01:38:31.767
Tempe that most people don't even know
about one of only six and in the

01:38:31.800 --> 01:38:38.786
world. And so that's another activity
that I'm happy to

01:38:38.819 --> 01:38:42.576
participate in. And obviously bring a
lot of sort of large scale

01:38:42.609 --> 01:38:48.836
university and university
administration to a a group of naturopathic

01:38:48.869 --> 01:38:52.987
doctors. Some of them are. MD. Some of
them are phds on the faculty. But

01:38:53.020 --> 01:38:56.866
It's a very small schools. Medical
schools. Are that less than 400

01:38:56.899 --> 01:39:04.899
students for your programming level
that they need sort of some larger

01:39:05.079 --> 01:39:09.887
administrative university type
procedures, you know, how do you set up

01:39:09.920 --> 01:39:13.296
promotion and tenure and all those
kinds of things that a small group of

01:39:13.329 --> 01:39:17.427
specialists, not educators, have
gotten together to form medical college

01:39:17.460 --> 01:39:21.586
and they're they're not normally known
for their

01:39:21.619 --> 01:39:25.666
educational experience to be on
faculty and most medical colleges anyway.

01:39:25.699 --> 01:39:31.256
So there's several things to keep one
busy and you mentioned that your

01:39:31.289 --> 01:39:36.567
ranch has been good for your family or
your Children's still here. We have

01:39:36.600 --> 01:39:41.086
three Children. All three live in the
valley. All three graduated from the

01:39:41.119 --> 01:39:45.227
issue in the Business College, all
tree married issue business college

01:39:45.260 --> 01:39:50.767
graduates, we live here in the valley
and we have seven grandchildren,

01:39:50.800 --> 01:39:55.937
major commitments instead of building
up resources for inheritance

01:39:55.970 --> 01:39:57.987
purposes.

01:39:58.020 --> 01:40:03.467
Uh, we've committed to provide our
grandkids with education and

01:40:03.500 --> 01:40:09.756
experiences or something like that. So
we committed to take All of our

01:40:09.789 --> 01:40:14.906
grandkids on international travel
trips when they're 14, 15 years old,

01:40:14.939 --> 01:40:21.076
very impressionable. We took our kids
around the world in 74

01:40:21.109 --> 01:40:26.156
on my first and only sabbatical and
visit all the solar installations

01:40:26.189 --> 01:40:32.956
around the world. three Kids Plus
Graduate Students. And, and, and they

01:40:32.989 --> 01:40:40.989
were like 12, 14, 16. And it was such
impact on their perspective of

01:40:41.229 --> 01:40:47.326
people and cultures and, and a
broadening of just the way they look at

01:40:47.359 --> 01:40:50.387
things we thought that would be a good
thing for our grandkids too. So we

01:40:50.420 --> 01:40:55.256
committed to that. We've taken six of
the seven now besides they only with

01:40:55.289 --> 01:41:03.289
grandpa and grandma, I'm all for 3, 3
weeks or something. Um, and then

01:41:04.609 --> 01:41:10.116
before crow came, I gave them all a
letter once at christmas time that we

01:41:10.149 --> 01:41:16.847
would commit to paying four years of
college tuition for all of them at

01:41:16.880 --> 01:41:21.296
the value that a issue charges and go
anyplace they want to get all the

01:41:21.329 --> 01:41:24.196
scholarships they want to, but we will
pay that much towards their

01:41:24.229 --> 01:41:29.177
education. And equivalent of course
tuition has doubled since we made that

01:41:29.210 --> 01:41:33.446
commission. So we're every time they
raise tuition costs us thousands of

01:41:33.479 --> 01:41:40.567
dollars. So, uh, and so that's a
challenge and, and a goal that's sort of

01:41:40.600 --> 01:41:44.956
independent, but we have a very close
family and, and they're all here and

01:41:44.989 --> 01:41:52.989
we're very fortunate to have that. So
not a one another one.

01:41:53.279 --> 01:41:56.317
Well, one of the things I'd like to
ask everybody is, what kind of advice

01:41:56.350 --> 01:42:04.350
do you give to young people today
using a car?

01:42:08.199 --> 01:42:14.687
Well, um, I guess one of my first
recommendation is to not live at home

01:42:14.720 --> 01:42:19.876
when you go to college. Very practical
thing. I understand for many and

01:42:19.909 --> 01:42:22.967
like I said, all three of our kids
want the issue, but they moved to

01:42:23.000 --> 01:42:27.206
campus and they would come home to
eat. Sometimes it was dirty laundry,

01:42:27.239 --> 01:42:32.067
but they had that part of the
education that I think is important for

01:42:32.100 --> 01:42:38.767
undergraduates, You know, 18-22 is a
pretty tough time to live through

01:42:38.800 --> 01:42:46.166
anywhere, but it's a, can be a very
learning maturing experience and uh,

01:42:46.199 --> 01:42:51.477
if they live at home they just don't
grow in the same way of being away

01:42:51.510 --> 01:42:57.097
from home, even if it's just a few
miles. Um, so that was one thing I

01:42:57.130 --> 01:42:59.767
don't, I don't think

01:42:59.800 --> 01:43:06.296
the undergraduate education is, it can
be helpful, but it's not critical

01:43:06.329 --> 01:43:10.866
if you're a very professionally
oriented person. And so there's nothing

01:43:10.899 --> 01:43:16.767
wrong with the three state
universities in Arizona. And even though I

01:43:16.800 --> 01:43:20.347
encourage our kids to go to any you or
you have a uh they all went to

01:43:20.380 --> 01:43:24.967
issue, which is fine. I have a
granddaughter. Do you have a, by the way?

01:43:25.000 --> 01:43:28.277
And one at least

01:43:28.310 --> 01:43:31.866
in education

01:43:31.899 --> 01:43:36.677
so that you don't have to choose your
schools unless you're the true upper

01:43:36.710 --> 01:43:41.027
crust that has to go to Harvard or
Princeton or something. Um So that's

01:43:41.060 --> 01:43:46.826
not as critical if you want to
specialize, be a true competitive

01:43:46.859 --> 01:43:50.387
professional, you do that at the
graduate level and then it depends upon

01:43:50.420 --> 01:43:55.437
what your areas to specialize and go
to different schools, but you're

01:43:55.470 --> 01:44:01.576
strong and different things. Um just
keep going to school.

01:44:01.609 --> 01:44:04.656
I can say I have voice

01:44:04.689 --> 01:44:11.857
um done things, so keep my options
open and not be,

01:44:11.890 --> 01:44:17.196
I have to say I regret not having done
that. Probably went on even though

01:44:17.229 --> 01:44:23.937
three kids and $200 a month income and
um graduate school to go and finish

01:44:23.970 --> 01:44:27.777
up my PhD because otherwise I could
never had a career in and the

01:44:27.810 --> 01:44:32.786
university, I have not done that and
I've never going back, I've never

01:44:32.819 --> 01:44:40.057
gone back if I'd gotten start working
for a living, so just keep going, I

01:44:40.090 --> 01:44:48.090
don't know that maybe all the advice I
give my drink, it's cool.

01:44:48.789 --> 01:44:53.637
It's very, very interesting. Thank you
very much saying that I should have

01:44:53.670 --> 01:44:55.756
asked,

01:44:55.789 --> 01:44:59.656
I thought I was going to ask you,

01:44:59.689 --> 01:45:06.456
well I wasn't quite sure how you would
put this whole

01:45:06.489 --> 01:45:10.517
bunch of information together in some
meaningful way or if there was a

01:45:10.550 --> 01:45:18.550
theme or a um um storyline you were
following kind of thing that I wasn't

01:45:19.720 --> 01:45:26.256
sure if there was some aspect that,

01:45:26.289 --> 01:45:31.456
that you, you, you wanted to do and
that was my unknown, I guess with

01:45:31.489 --> 01:45:35.156
trying to record your story,

01:45:35.189 --> 01:45:39.737
you have a lot of different stories so
well and it has not been a simple

01:45:39.770 --> 01:45:46.057
life, which makes it that much more
interesting from my point of view and

01:45:46.090 --> 01:45:51.906
but that's, that was my only concern
if there was a storyline that you

01:45:51.939 --> 01:45:55.916
were trying to do that you can orient
rambling thoughts in certain

01:45:55.949 --> 01:45:59.956
directions if you so choose,

01:45:59.989 --> 01:46:03.147
I guess, um

01:46:03.180 --> 01:46:07.876
you know, everyone who's come to ask
you to and probably characteristic

01:46:07.909 --> 01:46:12.527
regards where you are, but certainly I
have observed that the issue, they

01:46:12.560 --> 01:46:18.046
considered that the world began when
they came to the issue and whether

01:46:18.079 --> 01:46:22.616
upper administration or faculty
members or whatever, that's when the world

01:46:22.649 --> 01:46:29.036
began and there was nothing before At
time zero when they arrived and I, I

01:46:29.069 --> 01:46:32.946
somewhat lament that there's not

01:46:32.979 --> 01:46:40.347
perhaps an appreciation for all those
people that went before, that made

01:46:40.380 --> 01:46:45.366
tremendous contributions and
sacrifices often times and building the

01:46:45.399 --> 01:46:53.399
university because it's been a
continuously improving process um of

01:46:54.479 --> 01:47:02.156
people who have not been maybe as
flamboyant as others, but are the, the

01:47:02.189 --> 01:47:08.546
salt and the pillars upon which the
university has been

01:47:08.579 --> 01:47:16.437
created and matured into a very
respectable university and, but I think

01:47:16.470 --> 01:47:21.246
it's human nature to think, you know,
I don't, I guess I probably the same

01:47:21.279 --> 01:47:26.527
way didn't think too much about those
1st 10 years from 58 to 68 when I

01:47:26.560 --> 01:47:32.477
came here of of um more so than
others, probably appreciate all of the

01:47:32.510 --> 01:47:36.416
changes. One has to go through to
become a university. And how do you

01:47:36.449 --> 01:47:41.057
start when you have only a college of
education, How did you start all of

01:47:41.090 --> 01:47:44.656
these things from scratch?

01:47:44.689 --> 01:47:49.887
And the difficulty of the
administrators of raw educators to branch out

01:47:49.920 --> 01:47:55.237
into non education things. And
education in my mind is much more of the

01:47:55.270 --> 01:47:58.727
applied kind of professional school
like engineering. They're not broad

01:47:58.760 --> 01:48:05.036
based administrators necessarily to,

01:48:05.069 --> 01:48:12.336
to create an appreciation and then
implement the growth of all these other

01:48:12.369 --> 01:48:17.336
areas of academic endeavors.

01:48:17.369 --> 01:48:20.836
So that's

01:48:20.869 --> 01:48:26.456
another one of my post retirement
goals is to try to get that some of that

01:48:26.489 --> 01:48:30.237
classical education that I missed as
an engineer, You know, went through

01:48:30.270 --> 01:48:35.187
10 years of college at all.
Prerequisite courses on top of each other and

01:48:35.220 --> 01:48:42.427
very little broadening. And so I've
taken on trying to read a lot of the

01:48:42.460 --> 01:48:47.536
old classics and I found me a book to,
to guide me through this, to say

01:48:47.569 --> 01:48:52.286
through the books you read in this
area and here in this area, it's a

01:48:52.319 --> 01:48:56.227
little challenging to get the time to
do that. But I probably read a dozen

01:48:56.260 --> 01:49:00.387
or so in the last year or so, some of
those things that I just, you always

01:49:00.420 --> 01:49:06.637
hear about because you never, I never
read, you know, but that's sort of

01:49:06.670 --> 01:49:10.357
peculiar trying to record those
stories from all the different

01:49:10.390 --> 01:49:15.006
perspectives of the people that were
and some of them do go way back, we

01:49:15.039 --> 01:49:18.137
talked about the campaign,

01:49:18.170 --> 01:49:23.387
the name changed the universe. No, it
was a charter the mission of the

01:49:23.420 --> 01:49:27.927
university to do that. And that's was
so critical and those people went

01:49:27.960 --> 01:49:32.696
out and and all corners of the state
and campaigned and of course it's

01:49:32.729 --> 01:49:37.156
very successful, but it was the result
of them doing it, you know, and if

01:49:37.189 --> 01:49:40.256
people don't even think about it, I
guess it doesn't affect their lives

01:49:40.289 --> 01:49:46.637
much they don't have to. But but I
appreciate him doing.

01:49:46.670 --> 01:49:51.866
And I was at U of a of course during I
went to U of a in 59 right after

01:49:51.899 --> 01:49:59.899
the vote and I was down there during
the Medical School Fight in 62,

01:50:01.260 --> 01:50:05.517
But of course the view there was, you
know, this was just a high school up

01:50:05.550 --> 01:50:09.796
here and didn't deserve

01:50:09.829 --> 01:50:14.046
the university. There's only one
university and all that stuff. Before I

01:50:14.079 --> 01:50:17.586
came to interview the issue. I I just
thought it would be interesting to

01:50:17.619 --> 01:50:21.277
go. But I can't imagine going there
with my sort of more interesting

01:50:21.310 --> 01:50:26.046
research and advanced technology. And
I was surprised when I came, I guess

01:50:26.079 --> 01:50:31.196
to an interview because I've never
interacted with these folks here. Well

01:50:31.229 --> 01:50:36.366
now they're talking about another new
campuses dr it and involved in plans

01:50:36.399 --> 01:50:39.227
for downtown

01:50:39.260 --> 01:50:42.626
only superficially.

01:50:42.659 --> 01:50:48.916
And when I was on course, Cabinet,

01:50:48.949 --> 01:50:54.187
I kept saying, we need To be planning
for a university for 100,000

01:50:54.220 --> 01:51:02.220
students. And uh, No one wanted to
talk about that. No, it's just no, we

01:51:02.760 --> 01:51:07.357
can't do that. We'd scare people and
we don't have to tell people what we

01:51:07.390 --> 01:51:10.116
administrators need to be planning,
how you're going to cope with. I mean

01:51:10.149 --> 01:51:14.616
, pretty simple projections and we're
the only show in town and, you know

01:51:14.649 --> 01:51:19.156
, they can create new colleges, but
there's not a hi history of that. And

01:51:19.189 --> 01:51:22.717
even if they do, you know, we're going
to go there unless we do something

01:51:22.750 --> 01:51:27.836
drastic and somebody should be
planning for it. And that means Major

01:51:27.869 --> 01:51:34.626
development at the other two campuses,
creation of new campuses, um, north

01:51:34.659 --> 01:51:38.069
, south, whatever. And I.