I always start off by identifying on the tape that today is Wednesday
December the 5th of 2000 and seven. And we're here at the community
services a issue community services building, doing an oral history
interview for the A. S. U. Retirees living history project. And I'm pam
Stephenson doing the interview and our videographer is Manny Garcia and
I'll let you give us your full name. My name is Arlene Mitya and I'm a
retired professor of counseling psych at A. S. U. Could you spell your
name just so our transcriber won't have to answer. It's m like mary E. T.
H. A.
A correct. Um I always like to start at the beginning and tell me when you
were born and where you were born. I was born in 1939 in the city of
Chicago on the southwest side where I lived until I graduated from high
school. Um had come from a family of being the only child but live next
door to a cousin who was a year older who was like a brother instead in
that same community, same house as I said up through high school. What was
that community like? It was in the city. Yes it was actually it was a
wonderful committee, a committee, a wonderful community pam. There were
many ethnic groups that had migrated there. My family grandmother came
from Poland, many of them did not speak english. Um but they were very
close knit family so that I remember that after my parents divorced, my
mother had to go back to work and my grandmother sort of raised me and she
did not speak english, but it didn't matter because the the neighborhood
became family and they were able to help. So I have very positive memories
of what that was like. Um and interestingly enough, I went back to the
neighborhood just this past june, I attended my high school's 50th reunion
, which was really fun, but I was so pleased when I went through the
neighborhood. It looked exactly the same and I could just see myself as a
child playing in those same areas and it was a nice feeling. I was not
sure what to expect, but it was a very, very pleasant surprise many
neighborhoods. I know exactly exactly for better or worse they change. Uh
, so tell me about growing up, you say you were an only child. Um, I think
I had a very happy childhood. The only area that perhaps was the sad part
was the divorce and I only saw my father on once a year which is on
christmas. But in spite of that, I, as I said, I felt very much cared for
and loved my um, my aunt and uncle lived next door and my cousin became
sort of like a brother and I just enjoyed playing with Children, had
parties all the time. And in fact to this day, I think I can remember most
of the neighborhood families by name which today I can't have my own
neighborhood because people have moved so many times. Um I don't have that
same connection. So in general it was a very happy time. I enjoyed grade
school. I found my first love which was art and had a great teacher who
encouraged me. Got involved in its earliest elementary school and became
the staff reporter for the paper and all those sorts of things. And so I
think my early childhood I'm very grateful for was really quite happy and
their memories that I still cherish. Can you say your your grandmother was
polish? Yes uh spoke polish did you learn to speak? I can understand it
but I never learned to speak it. I think it was a little hesitant on doing
that. My one um goal on my goal list which gets larger and larger as I get
older is to maybe go back and pick up one of the you know learning by
audio series which I think would be a good thing to do. I did go to Poland
a year ago which was a tremendous experience for me. Um but I was so sad
that I could not communicate as much as I would have liked to. And what
about you? Talk a little about your mother, She had to support you and
what did she do for a living. My mother, It was a family of five. The only
one who had two years of high school. Um And that was through a G. E. D.
After my father and mother divorced. Um Her sister older sister helped
with financing her education to become a beautician. So she made her
career as a beautician. And I I learned a great deal from my mom as a
professional. She took me to the hairdressers association meetings and I I
think I was introduced and acculturated into what a profession was like
really early on. I never had desires to become a beautician. Probably was
a good thing because I had not been too good at it as you could tell. Um
But I did learn about what it was like to be part of a group that had high
standards and I think that was a good preparation for me for my later life
as a as a professor of having a working mother and everybody did it.
That's true, that's true. It was not an easy time for my mom, it was
really difficult. So in order to supplement income, we took in renters and
had a couple of renters all the time. And so in many ways that became
another extended family, other people living in the house.
So you went to school right in the neighborhood, it was a neighborhood
public school um several, several blocks, probably at least a mile or more
to walk, which is probably why we were in better health in those days. It
was a regular public elementary school and as I said, one of the things I
began to do is show some talent and art and so the teachers began to ask
for help. But one of the things I did, which I probably shouldn't have
done is found ways to stay out of going to math and therefore spent that
time in the kindergarten doing artwork. So I regret some of that in my
past life. But I don't regret the opportunity to, to get reinforcement for
something today, which has become an avocation my art
as you were growing up, did you have to help work and help support the
family too. I did some babysitting, you know, as a youngster and through
the age of eight on um and then by the time I got to high school which the
positive thing that happened with my, my dad who had not seen for many
years. I in 8th grade I decided I wanted to go to a parochial high school
which had just been built in the neighborhood was a girls school, a
Catholic school. My mother couldn't afford the tuition and my father never
had really paid for what should have typically been done through the
divorce. He was unable to, but he did help with the tuition. So I had a
wonderful education at Maria high school and it was there that I really,
it finally became interested in learning. I mean elementary school was
just a place, but Maria really taught me the joy of learning languages and
and a lot of reinforcement for the humanities which have become a part of
my life
and did you have to work to, to help pay that tuition? I did, I worked at
a dime store. The people that are young watching this would not even know
what that was a variety store and I was a cashier and that was helpful. So
you worked early in your life through high school and then of course
beyond that forever. Did you have thoughts as a young girl growing up of
what you wanted to do with your life as far as a career or did you think
you'd have a career? You know, there were no, no role models? My mention
my mom becoming the beautician was one, but there was no one in our family
that had gone to college. So I really didn't have anyone to sort of
emulate at that time or to talk to about that. So I didn't have
aspirations to go on to college even after that wonderful high school
experience. You know, it was, did very well and you know, it was on the
honor roll and all of that, but never had the, I guess the, the feeling
that I could do it. Um, and so I did not go on to college much to the
chagrin of the sisters of ST Kazimir who taught me because they actually
were able to get me scholarships to some of the local, they have many
private catholic colleges in Chicago, but I chose not to go. And that
changed of course later. But at that time in my life I didn't really feel
I had the, whatever it was the chutzpah to do it, even though the record
showed the opposite, but I just wasn't that confident at that time. So
what did you do after high school? I got a job at General Electric as a
file clerk and I'll never forget the, this the hierarchy of file clerks
Were interesting. Those who had been there for more than 15 years were up
in the front, my desk was the way in the back and that's what I did for
about a year and a half. And then at that point my mother became very
seriously ill with, there was a strain of Asiatic flu that was just
permeating throughout the country. She really was not getting better and
her older sister had moved to Arizona and had a small motel on Van Buren
and aunt julie and uncle steve invited my mom and I to come just for her
to hell. Well we never went back. We stayed in Arizona and that was a
pivotal period in my life, a major change. Um And during that time I got a
job at a small finance company in phoenix and um I got fired, which was
the pivotal that really changed my life. I it was a finance company and I
will not mention its name because I think they're still in existence. But
this was before the truth and lending laws were evident and I took it upon
myself to council many of the people who came for loans to let them know
how much interest there really were paying if they took the loan. And for
that I was fired. But I years later wanted to thank the man who had hired
me. I had never could find him because it was he in the firing that made
me go to college. I was so humiliated. I mean I was just devastated to
think I had shamed the whole family by being fired. But it was at that
time, I remember I had one of 53 Packard at ST mary's and a bingo and
that's what I was driving and as I was driving back in that Packard which
would always, when I stopped the car, the shift would not shift. So I had
to get out of the car, open the hood. So as I was getting out of the car,
opening the hood I said to myself, I think maybe maybe this is the time
you should go to school. And so that was the that was the time again. I
wish I had had thanked Mr Kyser for that doing the firing. That changed my
life. That's interesting how things work out. Well, tell me what year was
it that you came to phoenix then? Well I'm trying to think I enrolled
after that firing enrolled at A. S. U. That was in 1959 so probably two
years before that was probably um I graduated in 57. So we shortly after
that what was Phoenix like? Oh it was so different, it was a small town at
that time of course after Chicago anything was small. Um It was a very
small town and um when we first moved we lived at the motel in one of the
cabins, stayed there for quite a while.
People were I think friendly. It was like almost it was felt like a small
city and
a. S. U. Of course my god it was small. I mean I could walk down the
campus and say hi to the greater damage and mrs damage and and they lived
on the campus. It just it was like part of the neighborhood I guess that's
the best way of describing. It was it was like a neighborhood.
So you were here at the time that Grady Gammage was president not only at
that time but during the name change which was a fantastic time in one's
life and to have been there for the just working for it and but to be
there for the celebration I could still remember what it was like and it
was, we were tearful, it was just like a gala celebration of something
that should have happened long before that. Talk a little bit about that
that it was remember of course the campus was so different, it was so, so
few buildings as they are no longer um congregating together. Um and I
don't remember where it was when it was on the main campus or where we
were for that, but when the announcement was made that the, it had passed
and we would become a university. I think the process of getting the
university state has really pulled people together even to a greater
community than what they once were. Um and it made us feel like we had
accomplished a tremendous deed for the state and the students were very
involved in the process of getting signatures etcetera. It made you feel a
real sense of identity with the institution in ways that probably most
people will never have. Do you feel like you've really made a difference?
Talk a little bit about that. Why? Why did you want to get the name
changed? And what did, what did your students do? How did they help
primarily by the signatures and petitions? Um also the writing, their
their their legislatures etcetera. It was a, I think the process of seeing
increase our nemesis was always down in Tucson to see that the university
status made a difference and it it gave more status to the institution and
offered more opportunities for and of course at that time, I never thought
about graduate work, but that was also part of the process.
It was a wonderful period to be part of. And especially the end result. It
was actually an election. It was an election that it was more than just
the signature. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
Was it during a regular election? Was it especially, I don't remember that.
Oh my. Mm hmm mm hmm. Um So so you decided that you've been fired to go
to college? Exactly. And what were your thoughts, what were you going to
study? And I wasn't sure. And so I wasn't against still living at the
little cabin motel. Um I wasn't ready to go to a S. U. I didn't think I
could handle that but I did enroll at phoenix college and continue to work.
Um and took one course and that was a great positive experience. And then
it was my mother who really encouraged me and said you know you need to do
this. And it was also she who encouraged me to live on campus which was a
great burden financially but we were able to do it. And I moved into
Gammage Hall. Which is quite ironic because years later when I became
president of the faculty senate, that sleeping porch that I slept and
became my office. So it was kind of like coming full circle in a way. And
I um I wasn't sure what I wanted to major in but again back to the art
that kept coming back so I settled on perhaps maybe teaching art. So I
ended up in the college of Education and that was the beginning of the a
career path that led me in many, many directions. So you came back
planning to become a teacher, a teacher of art
education rather than the College of Art. Right. I was an education
and did teach for a short time. I enjoyed it but it still wasn't after I
graduated, it wasn't you know how you just know that there's something
missing. Um I love that little ones. I talked with Scottsdale school
district and I taught from kindergarten through through eighth grade, but
all along when I was at A. S. U. I came into contact with Catherine
Nichols early on who was the Dean of Women and she had encouraged me to
get involved in student government and also the Resident's hall program.
So I became a assistant, had resident early on almost before I became a
sophomore and continued with that. And that really linked me to student
affairs. And I found my real first love really was working with adults
college aged students. And so it was really her who I think again, you
know, there's always someone who moves you towards the path. And Catherine
had always encouraged me. And once I finished my degree here she
encouraged me to apply to other institutions for a fellowship, which I did.
And had received actually, I was pleased I got an offer from Berkeley and
one from Ohio State and I chose Ohio State. So we go back a little bit
about when you were living on campus here. He said that was financially
hard for you. Why was it important to live on campus? And actually was my
mother's suggestion which I am grateful for? I'm not sure I would have
thought I would be able to do that. She had thought it would be good for
me to live on because she had this is a woman who had a G. E. D. But she
knew enough from her work as a beautician talking to people who had
Children who went on to school to know that living on campus did make a
difference. And so again I I always wonder about you know education is one
thing but knowledge is a whole other. My mother seemed to have a great
deal of knowledge and what were your options for living on campus? Where
could you For a freshman? There were there were several. Um. Gammage was
the one that I ended up and I had not really known the differences at that
point in time. Um There was also Palo verde at that point it was becoming
becoming more and more of a sorority um dormitory. So I don't think there
were non sorority members there. Um There were others but I can't right
now think of what they were but damage was a perfect choice because it was
not too large and I immediately got involved with the student government
and eventually became a an assistant to the head resident and and that's
kind of where it all began to unravel and unravel, I should say, in a
positive direction. It was given a call, you know, um we had a house
mother. Um we had to sign in in those days when you went in and out, you
left the dorm. Uh It was very, it was a wonderful little family for the
first time. Was able to meet with people from across the state. There were
some out of state students, but there were few in those days, mostly from
the small towns and having grown up in Chicago. It was great to help you
meet with people who grew up in marin see and in towns which I had never
been to or even heard of. Um and I got very involved as I said immediately
in student government. Where was the same place and what we tell people
where that is. Oh, I'm sorry. It's like, it was actually, it it was very
regal with its columns coming up. It's not as regal of course as as some
of the other um dorms were, but it was, it had tremendous class and it had
a spirit of place if you will, it was small enough that you felt
comfortable, but not that unlike a, the architecture of a college or
university, it was, it was inviting. It had a wonderful large
sort of family room with a piano. And um so it was a good place and I'm
very pleased that that was where I began my my life at a. S. U. Campus.
Same place right on campus. Um Yeah what was your room like? Oh it was
very small but at that time it seemed very normal since I grew up in a
small house. Um It was we were able to decorate it as we wished accepted
certain things you couldn't put on the wall. Um How big was it? It was
barely there's not enough room. There were no beds. We had sleeping
torches where the beds were where the so the room had just enough for for
desks. And I think there was like something it's not a day bed but
something where you could sit on. So it was very sparse and very small.
But I had an interesting roommate who came from las Vegas. She and I
became dear friends years and years. Um We still see each other. She was
really a maverick and I remember her first decision was to buy a hot plate
which of course was a no no and I always shattered about that. But we
never got caught anyway we had tea at the evening which was nice. Um It
was it was a great place for me and I felt very comfortable and as I said
that because I think what changed my career to directory to go away from
art teaching. But to think of a career in student affairs when you say you
slept on the porch. That's strange to people today. I know it's a sleeping
porch and the beds were sort of you know head toe, head toe, they weren't
right next to each other. But that was a common uh I guess a design in
those days to make the best of space utilization. Um It worked. Um the
only time it didn't work when someone had the flu or whatever, then you
know, it became somewhat problematic. But we're the screen porches, they
were screened porches young. So I didn't get kind of cold. So they had
they had, you know, windows that similar to Chicago that double paned and
whatever. So they were prepared for. It was comfortable. It was, it was
comfortable. But you actually just had the room was for what studying for
study. Most people went to the library as I did my first roommate again
since I'm very fond of her but she was not a student. Uh so it was
difficult to study there. So I, you know, I found the library to be the
best place and that worked out just fine. So what did you use the room for
then? Oh just primarily to um you know socialize and store your things and
etcetera. But most of the activity occurred in the that open area which
was kind of like the living room if you will very different from today.
Today, they're, I mean they're apartments. Um And then of course as I,
when I got to become a sophomore and junior had moved to Mcclintock Hall,
which isn't still there. Um And that was the dorm, that was the honor dorm
and and that was a great experience. That was more like, that was
wonderful. It had a little sitting room and it had your own bathroom and
and that was that was lovely.
It was going like from rags to riches from damage to Mclyntock bathrooms.
Oh, they're out in the hall, you had to go to the community bathrooms
described. I can't, that's a little bit foreign what buildings existed and
maybe some of the student activities
we're going on at that time.
Sure. Maybe the relationship of yeah, she was, she was the dean of women
and then I think later she was the associate dean of students. But the
campus was, it always has been beautiful. I mean it's the grounds have
been exceptionally kept and um, it was what was so wonderful about it. You
could go to class and most of the major buildings were there. The new, of
course we know that this has changed dramatically with high rise
structures, et cetera, but it was in spite of its size at that time and
you felt like you were in a huge university. Um the uh, in the faculty, I
think I had a couple of very large classes, Doctor stinky and Biology. Of
course everybody had to take up life science. So That was in one of the
larger lecture halls, but for the most part they were in small rooms, 30
people in the class at most. So you really got to know the professor and
you certainly got to know your colleagues, your students, the student body.
Um And as I mentioned when I first came it was not uncommon, you know to
be able to say hi to Dr Gammage and Catherine Gammage. Um It was different
and I treasure those memories because of course you know I have different
memories today. They're equally as positive but it would not have been
that easy to come to A. S. U. Um Today what about your meals, where did
you eat? Um I had a meal ticket and we Typically left eight of the Emu. Um
And that was the the process. Yeah right right for me. Yeah. Most people
dropped the meal ticket I did after a while and there were a couple of
places to go when where the College of nursing is. There was a little um
perfect place. I mean a tiny little hole in the wall and food was great.
And so we always found those places as well. And the College of Education
, where was that located? It was um the College of Education was
principally in the same area where we are now. Um Not here but that's
where the college is located. Um, but what it had, that was unique was
pain Training School. Um, and that was a wonderful opportunity for those
of us who aspired to be teachers because we could have first in knowledge
and experience of actually being part of the school. And of course the
pain Training school was a unique school. It wasn't like the regular
public school, but it did give us an opportunity to observe and interact
early on in our training to see if indeed this is what we wanted to do. It
was unique. What made it unique. It was unique because again, being a
training school, they were on the cutting edge of trying different
curriculum teaching methods that perhaps would not have taken place in
just a regular um, school and I know it was very different. Um, they had
try different interactions. I know one of the things that I found myself
being very attracted to is how they could use the humanities and Arts and
teaching even if you were teaching science. And so I don't think much of
that occurred in the traditional public schools, not because they didn't
want to, but I don't think they have the, the facility or the funds to do
it, but the training school, many of the faculties Children went there and
, and so it was a cutting edge place to be and that was a great experience.
I'm gonna stop for one second only because sometimes, no, no, you rubbed
the mic a little bit, but I'm going to move the Michael because you you
tend to do that I guess. I'm just so you're italian I guess I have, I've
been around too many Italians, it's okay, good.
Um so you see after um teaching for a few years and it was, it was just
short was about a year, um I began to apply for graduate college or
graduate school and as I said, I applied to Berkeley in Ohio State and
then went on to Ohio State. I had a fellowship there and at that point I
um I shifted my focus and I guess realizing art had somewhat limited
possibilities and um ended up getting a masters in counseling. And and at
that point I really found I think my my love, I've been doing the
counseling in a sort of non professional way while being assistant head
resident and I love doing it, I felt, but I maybe have the capacity to to
understand and to listen and uh to be empathic and and I found that this
was the correct choice, but I realized after that experience, uh and
getting the masters, it wasn't enough if I really wanted to really be
involved in helping people, I needed a doctorate. Well it looks like you
got that master, pretty masters pretty quickly I did with the thesis. So
it was a hard, it was, but it was a full fellowship actually moved back to
Ohio. Yeah I lived in a rooming house in columbus which was great. It was
a good experience. So how long were you in Ohio? I was there for the
duration of that year and finished the the thesis within that summer and
um and came back um so your intention was always to come back to Arizona
or what was your um actually at that point the coming back was also for a
short period I got married um soon after I came back and my my husband had
taken a job with General Electric and had received the territory where he
was in the lamp division of GE was in Orange county California. So there I
was moving again and this time it was to further west to Tustin And Orange
County 1st. Excuse Me to Tustin in Orange County And that was about 1960 4.
4. Yeah four and 5. So how long were you in California? I was there for
quite a significant period. I ended up at a small women's college working
in their counseling center at Mount ST mary's College. Um it was an
interesting period in life again we couldn't afford two cars Ron had to be
G at X. Time and I need to be at the Mount which was a long way from
Tustin. We couldn't afford to live near Mt the Mt before I got to
California. I was interviewed for that job in somewhere not anywhere near
Arizona. I think it was in Missouri. I've flown there from from Ohio for
that interview and and got the job but I had never seen mount ST mary's
college. So I remember saying to Ron listen before I come, why don't you
get a little apartment near the college, You know something cheap so that
we can you know get our money together and we can eventually get a better
place. He said okay well he of course knew this is near Brentwood and U. C.
L. A. And you know the average apartment was probably a zillion dollars.
Uh And so anyway we ended up living far far away from the mount, it was an
hour and a half one way and we had one car. So it was an interesting
period of time, but a great place to start. One's career, A women's
college as I mentioned. Um And in spite of the fact they were very well
suited for their college experience. They too had many problems. So I I
had my opportunity to really get introduced to what counseling and
psychology is about. Well how did you get there? Ron drove me, we got up
at 4:00 AM and drove the one hour and a half, one way drop me off and then
he went to his job which was another hour and a half. It was you know it
was tough but we managed, we were young and you know, you have a lot of
energy and everybody else was doing it? So it wasn't like you were unique
. I know there were no busses, no or or trolleys by then streetcars were
gone.
So there's a reel line now. I know, I know, but it's just you know, things
have changed in a very positive way. My my my sister in law lives in
Irvine and they used that the light rail. Oh it's great. Yeah. It is, it's
wonderful apartment. Did you? I was gonna say so you know. I know but it
was you know, I remember driving through this through the hill and he'd
say now which of these do you think you know we should look at and I
thought oh my gosh looking back it wasn't that much but it seems like a
lot. It was yeah, Couple $100 a month
back then.
So you we're counseling there, what do you think that um I wasn't planning
to but my husband's father and stepmother were killed in an auto accident
and he was the only child. And so he came back to run the family business
and it was Arizona brake and clutch supply. So he we came back that was
the reason and you know, you just to those things, it was difficult but I
also knew we all knew all along that um you know somehow no matter what, I
would go on and finish the degree. It may not be immediately, but I would
do it. So you were working, when did you start working then on your doctor
, when we were back in in Arizona, I had decided that I really wanted to
complete it and I'm kind of losing track of some of the time period there
, but I applied to several institutions but the one that I always wanted
to go to was USC and so I applied and of course was admitted. Um And as I
think back somehow again I'm confusing the time periods but we were I was
already enrolled at USC and taking the course work um when the parents
died and that's when we came back. So I had already had kind of a head
start at USC. Anyone getting a PhD had it go through several courses, you
have to take courses in X. Y. Z. And that coursework then had to be
challenged by an exam and that gave you the entree to go into your subject
area. So I was in the process of completing that and um did that finished
it and and then ended up completing the the doctorate up until the
dissertation. It was at that point that we came back to Arizona. So I'm a
little fuzzy so you'll have to excuse me about that on the timing of it.
But essentially I ended up doing the dissertation from Arizona
did a s you offer a doctorate at that time. They did but I get I don't
believe that it was a counseling psych degree and I don't even know if the
the doctorate, they had a master's of counseling program and I'm not sure
if they did have a doctorate.
It looks like you came back to work at A. S. U. I did during the time you
did your doctor write at USC. I did that and that was when I was working
on the dissertation.
I really just thought Ron had as I said compared to run the family
business and I really felt I needed to complete that process. And so I
thought perhaps if I could enter the university in some position it would
perhaps maybe give me an entree to a possible position. I began to think
Ron would not leave the business, he felt a commitment to his dad so we
would probably stay here and um I hunted and hunted and there were no
positions that I saw that were advertised. And at that point I was so
involved with my dissertation was on alienation and existential
frustration among college students and I was so involved with the The
disenfranchised disenfranchisement of students. And partly because I was
feeling some of that myself during that that was the heir of the 60s and
it was very prevalent. And so I began to as I began to think of applying
for a job, I thought you know I need to apply in a way that people really
know who I am and they have to take me as I you know, that sort of
existential stuff. So I designed my vita unlike the one you have there on
a beautiful color of orange burnt orange. And I did it in the style of E.
E. Cummings with no punctuation or caps and at the top of it said I am Me.
There were three pages I sent it out and got no reply. In fact then it
was in an envelope that said um something about
today is a good day bold print. Well it's not a surprise nobody responded
except one person from here and that was nelson Henderson. He was at that
time the the chair of the secondary a department and then part of that
department offered a program and foundations Philosophy Sociology History
of Ed. And they had an opening. And so he responded, it turned out to be a
wonderful friend I think so highly of him. So he gave me the opportunity
to um come into the College of Ed and teach. And
he said you know he would not have probably invited me but it was that
unusual vita okay that he was curious and chris if you know him he's a
very expressive artist type person who loves dance and music. So he well
thank goodness he was the one who opened the envelope. All right, we
wouldn't be sitting here today probably. And so what what was that job?
What did you do? It was a again, it was part of the Foundation's course of
preparing people with an overview of philosophy, sociology, history in
preparation for their teacher read program. And where was your office or
where did you teach? What building I'm trying to think of. Um I think the
the the red building was relatively new and for a while we taught
somewhere else and I don't recall where that was. Um But that was being
built, if I'm not mistaken. So, I was sort of in two places, a temporary
place and the college of that building, Not the new one, but the older one.
And so that's where the christmas began. So then did you move into the
new building? You know, I don't think it was. I think not. I don't, again
, that's fuzzy in my mind right now as many things are,
mm hmm. Mhm. Who were you teaching? They were primarily juniors. They had
finished all their prior coursework and they were beginning to take
courses to prepare to become a teacher and that included things like micro
teaching before television before they just student taught. That was fun.
Um And a number of other courses. I think I taught one of the sociology of
education um and um etcetera. So they were the preliminary courses that I
think most teacher preparation programs require
for the large classes. Um probably about 35 was considered as an average
class. Um that was pretty much the norm.
Did you like that child? I enjoyed the teaching but I still felt something
unfinished
and I think I know that that unfinished part was the the process of
helping people and the process of the whole notion of um psychology
counseling and and that really I think became my my love. And so that was
where the next stage of my life began to to become a reality.
We'll talk about, how did how did that come about then? You need to change
from teaching education. It was through again and one has to thank and
perhaps someone beyond us had something to do with this. Um We had a
change of Dean's in the College of Ed and Gladys johnson became the Dean
and at that time the provost was Jack in Singer. It was also at the time
the very time when the at that time it was called the counselor Ed
department. Now it's the counseling psych department. Um we're going
through a visitation by the american Psychological Association for their
accreditation and there was a concern because there were no women in that
unit that were licensed psychologists. And so dr johnson, Gladys johnson
in concert with the provost, Jack Kinzinger met with the to share that
department and suggest that they do something about it. And it just so
happened both. Um Sharon Sharon had done her work at indiana University
and I had done mine at USC We had all the coursework, we were never
licensed. So the provost was willing to pay for both of us to go through a
crash course, you know, as they do for law and all the other professions
to pass the licensure exam and we did and passed and we then joined that
unit and that's where I spent the remainder of my career, which was
wonderful. It was truly was coming home.
We'll talk about that. What what was that unit? How big was it, Who did
you work with? Right. It was a combined unit offering the master's in
counseling which was a 60-hour program and pretty intense And also a
doctoral program that was quite selective. They took approximately six a
year and I was able to work both with the master students and the doctoral
students and it truly was a joy and the students were outstanding and many
of the, the students that I worked with, we were able to publish combined
dissertations and both of us got quite a bit of mileage out of that and we
were able to go to professional meetings and I could sort of help them to
get introduced to what it's like to be a professor and co chair papers
with them. And it was, it was probably the highlight of my life. It was a
wonderful experience and I'm still in contact with them and in fact I
probably adopted grandmother to half of their kids. I have such fun fun
memories and it was a fantastic way to, I don't want to say in my career
that's just another move to a different direction. But the highlight of my
career with A. S. U. Um I will forever be grateful to as I said to Jack
and considering Gladys johnston for allowing both Sharon and I to make
that change and move. So you moved from the from the education to the
counseling psych program which is called today?
Yeah. Yeah not uncommon. Um It's it's different across the country,
depends on what their history was and but it's not uncommon to be either
in the site, the program or in the college of it. So did you actually do
counseling also teaching people to do counseling? Right. But also you know
we have the counselor training center there and patients came her clients
came and so we were part of the process of helping students to go through
that. Um So we did have a clientele that came to the center and and that
was interesting and very good experience.
And then um I did that and as I became very involved in being a factory
members. You know once load is also to do research and so early on is when
I made the transfer to the counseling psych I decided that the focus of my
research should be suicide. I had lost a very close friend who had taken
her life and it really bothered me greatly, I mean, it was an unfortunate
law. She was a very creative and talented woman, um who herself is a
social worker. And and it was through that experience that I I became
convinced if I could make any change, I would like to do it there. And so
I spent the rest of my career in that field, and that's where all my
researches and much of my publications, you want to talk about some of
that research? What what was the first research that you I think the the
first
research was primarily to get a sense of the magnitude of college students
, feelings of both alienation and and frustration, but more than that, um
severe depression and suicide ideology, the thinking about suicide. So, I
spent considerable time researching a variety of college students, in
particular, different subcultures of students. I mean, during the sixties
, there were these unique little clusters. It's harder today, I think, to
, to to do that. But, you know, they were the nontraditional kids, the
hippie type kids who were really doing things that were oftentimes
aggravating, but yet we're making positive change. And then, you know,
there were the vocational ist the kids who came to college, like I did
eventually wanted to become a teacher and knew that, you know, soon. Um,
and there were, you know, the variety of different against subcultures of
students and they were the non committed ones who just didn't quite know
where they belong to. So I was interested in looking at. Are there
differences among those students and their feelings of disenfranchisement
or alienation or existential frustration and that started it and then it
was that became my my life commitment. Um So the suicide issue went on and
I became very involved with the, became part of the board of directors for
the Suicide prevention center and work closely with its director Eileen.
And um through that I was able to get make contact with the National
Association of Suicidology, the American Association of Suicidology, and
spent most of my time delivering papers having done research in that
subject. It was very, very rewarding. I can say, I mean, one of the few
people that can say research was more than just a um collegial experience.
It was truly um hopefully made a difference. What was the suicide
prevention? The suicide prevention center still exists in Arizona
offers training for staff. Um Various entities on um isolating and um
determining um suicidal behavior, catching signs and symptoms, early
training school districts. And so a great deal of what I did in terms of
my service was to do that sort of thing, um particularly through working
through the counselors in the public schools and it was through those
contacts. I was able to get the approval to do a lot of the research
because this is not a topic that school districts are excited about, not
that they're interested in doing anything negative, but it's not a topic
that they feel comfortable with. So I felt very fortunate because we had
done such good research with the students in counseling psych. We had
established a reputation and I think that gave me the entree to continue
to do that research in the schools.
It seems like some point in their they started to have like suicide
prevention hotlines they do. In fact that's been very helpful much of it.
In fact most of its run by students themselves or our young people. Um and
there are also professionals there to help. Um But yes, there's quite a
bit has been done over the years since I became involved in that. And then
the american Association of Suicidology is a wonderful resource of of
helping. Mhm. Schools programs entities to give them some aid in helping
if they need instruments to determine and check if there is suicidal
behavior, you know, to new invention interventions that might be useful.
Um It's a very large group of people that are involved in suicidology and
then in a wonderful group and people ask me god, how do you go to those
meetings, isn't it depressing? They're the most upbeat people I've ever
met and probably they have to be to stay in that area of research. But
they're really people are very creative and very positive.
Good good models for all of us had had suicide been a problem at A. S. U.
Uh at that time, not any particular difference than what was happening
across the country, but what was the same here as elsewhere is, you know,
the the concern about what to do about it and what's the best way to to
fine do the prevention and find out early on so you can intervene. Um So
our institution here has been always, I think on the cutting edge of
making sure that there were enough counseling staff and people available
in psychologists to to intervene. But um there's always much to learn. Um
we never know enough to stop it. So we still struggle. Have you seen that
change? Over the years? I think what I have seen change that is very
hopeful is the school districts themselves now, the universities were
always there. Um but the public schools were somewhat reticent to even get
involved with this topic for fear that it might, the typical fear was if
you talked about it, they might do it. Which of course isn't the case. The
students who are in trouble and are very depressed need to talk to
somebody. Um So over the years that the public schools and private schools
have become much more sophisticated about knowing um out of sight out of
mind is not the best intervention. There are ways that one can, can look
ahead and and make plans to eradicate the problem before it begins. Um So
because of my again, earlier research with the schools, it was easier to
be able to do. I think more of the training that we did in the school
districts as well as the research.
Mm hmm. Is there any particular experience in that that stands out? That's
something you want to talk about that. I think if I were to say anything
about the topic, I would really encourage anyone who has any hint that
someone they know or care about is in trouble to get them help immediately.
And it's not a it's something that one should be shameful of. Its
depression is common across the country and all disciplines. Severe
depression is what typically leads to to suicide. And oftentimes parents
are not aware of the symptoms and signs. Teachers are not aware. Um, and
so I think if we could do anything, it would be to encourage the
appropriate bodies through schools etcetera to continually be trained in
interventions and how to identify kids who are in trouble and at risk. Um
, and not be fearful of the topic. Um, it's an invitation to maybe save a
life and it's certainly worth doing. So is your focus primarily on young
people and suicide primarily. Although I did have a small grant to do some
research on the aged, which is a whole major topic. Um, but my work
Princey was was focused on adolescents.
We'll talk a little bit more about the university and how it's changed
over the years. Obviously you're one because you came here so young um you
actually were here when it changed its name dr damage was exactly um talk
about some of the other presidents or you were here when when he passed
away. Yes, I was um I think probably the so many of the president's had, I
can't um say enough about the changes because I was a recipient of that um
as a faculty member um I think I became closest to over time, but probably
because of where I was in my own career during the years of j. Russell
nelson and Leddy Cour. And and I think having the opportunity,
particularly in the end of my career, which is as that came to a close
shortly before and obviously I've been retired for 10 years, but one of
the highlights of my career that I think played a major role in how I feel
about the university, which is very positive. It was during the the laddie
cours period I had at that time been elected president of the faculty
senate and in that role I was able to sit
and absolutely part of observing what was going on with the border regions
, sat with the president's council um and was able to see what the
university is like and how it runs itself, it was and as you know that it
was probably couldn't have found a better president to have that
opportunity to serve in the Senate because he was very open to um faculty
governance and very wanting to, to um work in a collegial way, which he
did. So I that experience was truly was one of the highlights of my career.
Um I found how difficult it is to be an administrator in an institution
of this size, um and how difficult it is to make change, but because of my
earlier career as a faculty member here, I I don't know where the courage
came from, but I was always willing to take the risk and I did file
agreement since against the university to make change. And one of them was
a very major one and that was a time when they did not advertise jobs and
several of us went to the powers to be and it didn't change and after
filing a grievance, I realized that that is the way to do business and
it's not a bad thing to do and things can change in a positive way. Um and
it wasn't, you know, going in badmouthing anyone, it was doing the right
thing in the right way. Uh it gave me the courage and I think that courage
came from Catherine Nichols, um if you don't like it, change it and do it
in the right way. And I think being in student affairs most of my life
that was part of the principles that we were taught and what we tried to
practice and so I thought it was okay and anyway, um I I loved being
involved with the university. I took some risks and hopefully made some
good changes and I think they were, but I learned more than I gave. I
learned so much from the administrators who have the courage to say Arlene
come here, I want to teach you something. Um many of my colleagues never
had that experience and I did, I feel very, very grateful for that. Can
you think of any examples of when that happened? I think yes, I think the
example, I mean I said I'm gonna be in signing filing the grievance before
I did that. I went to all the administrators including the president and
said this is what I'm doing and I want and I want you to know why. I think
it was during the, the period of that they was right kind of in between
the nelson and core presidency. So I actually that process took more than
when president was through both of those presidents. Um I always went to
the person or persons that we're going to be most affected, explain what I
was doing and why and thought that I wanted to do it in a positive way.
That would be most useful. I think I learned again through my work and
student affairs and the university as a young person observing other
administrators that there are ways you can handle difficult situations but
you can do them without um hurting people. We're talking in some more
specifics about this grievance that you it was the process, as I said, it
was during the early period when the university was going through its
maturation. Um and at that time there was not a protocol for advertising
all administrative advertising all positions. There were some positions
that were never advertised, they were not the faculty positions or the
high higher um power, if you will, administrative positions. They were
pretty much the entry level positions and some of them were um um at the
entry level, I would say in terms of they were not tenure track positions
and things of that nature, but there were several positions, many of them
were non academic um and again going through the steps and meeting with
the appropriate administrators and then going through the the appropriate
academic grievance process as well as a prize in the Senate, the faculty
senate, this was a problem and they had their own committees that began to
get involved with those issues. So working in tandem with all of that um
change happened and they were it was positive change. Why was it a problem
that they weren't advertised? I think again, I think it's part of the
again, the maturation of how personnel is handled, it wasn't something
that just happened overnight. Um academic, the whole affirmative action
process did not just stop and change. You know, there it took some some
doing for that kind of change. I probably should idea that this is tape
too with Arlene.
Thank you. Sure. We have encouraged. Okay.
Mhm. During your career here, were there other challenging times and
things that you were confronted budgets and things like that or changes in
administration?
I think um as I mentioned, I think posted dialogue this morning, the
challenge was always change and I think um I am very but I said grateful
to the experiences that I had here some were we're challenges in the sense
that I perhaps maybe it wasn't ready myself for the next step. But one of
the things that I if I ever to say anything in terms of my experience here
at the university um I've received tremendous help every time I I whether
I came into an administrator's office to share a concern about something
that should be changed, I was always treated with respect and I think that
gave me a great deal of confidence and I you know I tried to share that
with my colleagues, you know it's okay and if you you know I even said if
you have to file a grievance to make to bring this to attention then you
do what you need to do. But I've never been afraid of that and I think
only the reason I am because I am not a person, people know me, I am not
someone who you know is just gangbusters and I wish I were at times, maybe
it would be different or easier. But that's not me. So you know, I go
through the methodical steps and try to, maybe it's because I'm a
psychologist. I also think of the other person's feelings or whatever that
is. Um and that has been very helpful to me. I think my training has
really prepared me to, to feel comfortable
I guess rubbing the wrong way or hustling feathers or or bringing to
attention to someone that something's not working right. And is there
anything I can do to help or is there some way we can as a faculty change
this. And of course the, I couldn't have asked for at the end of my career
here to have worked with Gladys sure because he was so prepared for that,
that was who he was. And so um, I ended my career in a tremendously pi
positive note. I learned a great deal from him, watching him as an
administrator and I think it was a great role model for me And I noticed
here that you were 12 years as an associate professor and then you became
a professor retired right that my goal was to not retire until I became a
professor. Um It took me that long to, to get to that state because when I
moved to the counseling site program, the standard was higher in terms of
research and uh and it was a difference and not to mention the standards
of the past and other departments were less. It was just a different type
of program. And they were, as I said, the american Psychological
Association approved program. And so the research had to be
produced in refereed journals of in psychology. And um, so it took me a
while to catch up. Um but as I said, it was it was a gift in a sense to be
able to work with the doctoral students who were really by partners in
that process. So in getting the grants and I did get many for the suicide
prevention. And so just about all of my research is in that area and and
they were a part of that with me. It seems like once you became a full
professor that you would have wanted to stay and enjoy that a little. You
know, I had, I thought about that, but I also had during this sort of
journey that we're talking about had breast cancer. And thank goodness it
was not, it had been staged to and it was not metastasized. And so I was
able, I did have a bilateral message but at that changed my life and I
began to think, you know, life is tenuous, we don't know. And I thought of
all the things I still hadn't done and I thought I knew if I stayed, I'd
be as involved in that What 60 page Vida you have, there will become 70
pages. But I wanted to do some things that I felt I couldn't do if I were
continuing my involvement here at the university on the faculty. So that
was what changed my mind and it was a good choice. I'm glad I made the
choice and it I still feel a great part of this institution but it was my
time to retire. So you retired from. Exactly right. Talk about what you
did. It was not something I planned to do, but it was sort of again one of
those serendipity again um one of my doctoral students that I had mentored
had invited me to join her and her husband and her her Children. She was
looking at for an office to practice and she had finished her degree in
our program past the licensure exam and and I became a psychologist and so
I did and uh and I said I know I don't really have a lot of time but I'll
be happy to look at it. But then let's go for ice cream with the kids and
then I'll have to skip away. Well before the ice cream melted. I signed
the lease. So I was in practice with her for for I think it was about two
or three years and then I retired. So it was kind of like a little
retirement at the beginning through A. S. U. And then the real retirement
after that. So you were in private practice with her. Yeah it was great. I
learned so much. I wish I had done that earlier. What I learned I then
tried to transfer to to pass on. I was very active in the Arizona psych
association at that time. And I decided I would do parlor sessions for the
new psychological faculty, faculty. But professionals, they had just been
licensed and we're now just going into private practice and they were
having problems not knowing how to start a practice. I learned so much
that period of time that I was in practice. I wish I had known it while I
was still on the faculty. I knew nothing. I knew nothing about business. I
knew nothing about how do you get clients? How do you advertise? I mean
that was just you know in the dark and most graduates are because we don't
really teach those nuts and bolts things. So I decided I would run a
series of parlor sessions called the nuts and bolts of starting a practice.
And what was wonderful about it. And I had it in my home and we did it at
different homes. Many of my former students came back and we had a chance
to kind of rien Kindle many of those memories. So I learned so much during
that period. I'm glad I went into practice. I I admire my colleagues who
have done this all their life. It's a tremendous job, a wonderful job and
it's very rewarding. What are some of the specific things, What did you
learn by going in private? Oh, I learned for, Well, as I just mentioned,
one of the things we need to change our curriculum and prepare our
students for the nuts and bolts part in addition to the, the, the
counseling and the, the interaction with, with clients and patients. I
learned a lot about insurance, which I just never had to deal with except
from one's own personal self insurance to get paid is through clients. I
understand now why are physicians are tearing out their hair and
psychologists are and psychiatrists and other people in the helping
professions? Um, there are a lot of things that, I mean they seem so
obvious, but they weren't for someone like us in spite of all the
education. I mean, I was truly a neophyte and I learned from my colleagues.
But anyway, those parlor sessions were great. Many of my former students
came back and, and with the topics changed over time. And, and eventually
I gave that up because it was taking too much time away from why I retired
and, and back to our conversation.
Are there any other besides the insurance and business or that? What else
did you learn by being in private practice? That was different? I think I
learned something that was difficult for me and that is how you had to
promote yourself and toot your horn. I mean, you know, if you're in
business, you have to say that you're the best, it's you know, it's just
sort of uncommon kind of mismatch if you will. Um So I learned you know
ways to to be myself and still I think be true to what I was doing. As I
said, it was it was a great experience. It's a very hard one. I'm not sure
that I would not have chosen that as a full career. It's an exhausting
process.
Not the teaching is difficult, it's not difficult but if there are, you
know, it's a whole different life and Mhm very very different. What is
exhausting about it is that the individual relationship with clients or I
think the exhaustion is the you don't have a lot of lead time between
getting sort of catching your breath in teaching. You have a class, maybe
three hours and then you have time off to recuperate to kind of recharge
your batteries and to prepare for the next step In practice. You have 10
minutes And it was very change 10 minutes that you write your notes as
quickly as you can. And I didn't do Shorthand um before you open the door
and say, oh please come in, my name is dr to you know uh it was difficult
. I had to learn different ways and I couldn't do the kind of note taking
that I did when I was a professor, you have to work as quick as you can
and hope you can get it all down and later be able to read it. Um So I
think it was just a whole change of the way you did business. Um And I
found that difficult.
So is that something that you think should be taught to? I don't know, I
think there should now with the the electronic gadgets we have, you'd have
to get permission from the patient or client to use it and I found that it
was not something I was comfortable doing. I found that might be um a
wedge of some sort. So I learned over time to take my own shorthand and
then re type them later. But it was it was a learning curve, you know it
was a late in life but I'm glad I had it because I know I can appreciate
what are colleagues do and and have made those suggestions to our our
program as they prepare. A psychologist has made any changes in the
program, I'm not sure, I haven't really checked on it because I've been so
busy being retired. I don't get to see my colleagues as much as I'd like.
I do see my secretary and we both go, she is my partner um tickets to the
things chamber society. So we go regularly and I kind of get the Scooby
doop on what's happening in our department but I don't get up there as
often as I'd like just too busy being retired. What else are you doing to
keep busy while you're retired. Oh, I have many, many things going on. I
actually, I'm still involved in in teaching but not with the counseling
psych program. I've been doing some sharing of dissertations and helping
research with some of the doctoral students that are in the division of
leadership policy studies, their native americans from Window Rock, um,
primarily Navajos and they're working on their own doctorate. And it's a
wonderful program and I've had a chance to work with several other
students and their research and finding that to be really only challenging.
But another gift
post retirement.
Um, absolutely. Oh, did you ever return to your art? Um, and I'm not as
not as much as I'd like, but I have and I continue with it every summer I
with another a colleague we rent a baby little apartment in san luis
Obispo. It's um, primarily for seniors like us. And it's typically housing
for cal poly students during the year. And so this is about the fourth or
fifth year that we've been doing it and they have an artist who comes in
every summer offers a program in collage and I had never been exposed to
collage and I love it. And so I've been trying, I haven't done anything
special, but I'm hoping maybe one day to have a show of combining the
collage with watercolor, which are two of them types of medium that I'm
most interested in. So I don't do as much as I'd like, but that's the
summers when I do and I just love it and suddenly this, but I don't know
if you've been there, it's just the mecca for everything and they have a
fantastic Mozart series in the summer and you know, the it's just a
fantastic place. So that's my gift to myself after working so hard, all
these years, every summer in san luis Obispo, that was great. You should,
it's called valencia and the price is right, and it's, it's a cousin that
lives in Atascadero. Well that's what I've been up there, it's pretty
there. Mhm. Um looking back on your career at issue, is there anything
that you're particularly proud of that? Did you think back on your career
,
I think I'm proud of maybe having been able to give back some of what I
gained and I was so fortunate to have received from the people at this
institution. Um and I think maybe, but really crystallized, that was
shortly after retirement, I had gotten to James Chrisman award for
outstanding service to the university and alumni and I think that was the
, maybe the pivotal point of saying um maybe I did make us somewhat of a
difference and I learned more than I gave. There's no question about that.
Mhm.
How would you like people here to remember you?
Oh, I think I'd like them to remember me as someone who it was a gentle,
caring person. I think those are the adjectives
thinking back over your career? It seems like you've taken a lot of
interesting twists and turns. What advice do you have for young people
that are trying to decide what they want to do. Mm hmm. I think the first
point of advice I'd suggest is to think of yourself as being sort of like
an open flower.
Maybe you need to close the pedals in the evening, but open them again in
the morning. Not to think about whatever choice you make is not going to
be forever. And not to be afraid to make choices. Even if they may not
have been the right ones. Because you learned something from that too. And
I certainly did. I made some bad choices. But I learned from those and
those were just as important. So I think if believe in yourself, that's
the first step. And as you heard my journey, I didn't believe in myself a
lot. At the beginning. I was pretty, pretty insecure. And I'm sure that
there are still students even this day who have those feelings. And so I
think if I was giving any advice, it's okay to feel that it's normal. Um
but surround yourself by people who are caring and gentle and who will
help you through those hard steps and take the risk the last if you don't
do it, you don't make it in the way you wished you haven't failed. You
just learned a great lesson and I would suggest that very good advice. Is
there anything else that you wanted to talk about today that I didn't ask
you about? I think um the one thing that I have difficulty with dealing
with and that's having some memory problems you may have found those to be
as I asked you to repeat things it's a real challenge. This is the biggest
challenge I've had. It's gonna be bigger still a human being and still
have those tears. It's it's the biggest
um
I know there's no there is no cure but I am I've gone through the psyche
develops psyche belts and there's been some cognitive decline. Um There's
also
the future which will probably this will continue. I've had been treated
by a psychiatrist with some meds hasn't helped very much. So I did make an
appointment that just yesterday with the U. C. L. A. On neuropsychiatric
program they have there for two days of assessment. I'm not looking for a
cure. I know that's not possible but there may be some things that I can
do that might help. Um And it's not going to help. I mean I think I'm
aware of its not going to help change it or arrested but maybe ways that I
can deal with it. So I'm not embarrassed.
What do you think about it
as a professor. I mean the thing you do you um c as your your gift is your
mind. And so I guess if I had to have a challenge, I got I got a big one.
But I'm learning. It's been a couple of years since it's been diagnosed
and I'm giving that.
I almost said no to you when I got the call. I thought I'm gonna make an
ask of myself. I won't remember what you asked me. How did I do? You know
, you forgot maybe some dates but everybody forgets. Yeah. But you know,
but it's it's not the long term memory and I thought that I can tell you
what I ate for breakfast when I was five. But it's the, you know, just the
it's the short term, you know, just in the last three minutes. Um, and I
was not aware of it until some of my very close friends began to let me
know that I just asked that question. Um, so I know there's no cure. But I
am looking for some ways that I can, you know, deal with it in a way that
I can still feel good about myself. So it's it's a way and it truly is
coming full circle now. I'm the patient and I'm I'm getting some good help
and I'm I'm looking forward to the future and they're making some progress.
No question,
definitely, definitely. But it's always the the somewhat fear of
embarrassing yourself or so if I can only do what I teach my former
students to do is be yourself and be up front, let them know. They'll see
this in any of your family. My mother, she did not have Alzheimer's thank
goodness, but Did have dementia. Not as early as mine started about 58.
It's giving up 58 and 58. Right now, I'm sorry 68, I'm 60, about 65.
That's when I began to notice it. Um, so for my mother, it came later. She
, I have, my father died at 92. My mother died at 91. So maybe I'll still
be around. I'm hoping I'll still be around with, you know, the, the
ability to, you can have conversations like we have today, but if not, I
don't know, somehow you get the energy and the courage from somewhere and
I have deep faith and my religion. And so I feel like no matter what it
sounds like you're still enjoying life with your art, definitely,
definitely. And just, you know, staying close to people I care about. And
that's, that gives me the, the reason to be Well, I'm very glad you
decided to, I am too. Thank you for a wonderful interviewer. I really
shared some wonderful insight into the early years, even when you were a
student is important to record those stories and it was unusual. Not too
many of our colleagues were students here and came afterwards. So I feel
in many ways very fortunate to have seen the change and Katherine Nichols.
Thanks. And the man I wanted to thank for firing me. I never could find
him. I tried and there was no way to trace him down and he did change my
life. So get you know, those hard knocks are sometimes the best
experiences we've had. People say that for sure. Isn't that true? Thank
you so much for the opportunity. Thank you in your health.