WEBVTT

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I always start off by identifying on the tape that today is Wednesday

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December the 5th of 2000 and seven.
And we're here at the community

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services a issue community services
building, doing an oral history

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interview for the A. S. U. Retirees
living history project. And I'm pam

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Stephenson doing the interview and our
videographer is Manny Garcia and

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I'll let you give us your full name.
My name is Arlene Mitya and I'm a

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retired professor of counseling psych
at A. S. U. Could you spell your

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name just so our transcriber won't
have to answer. It's m like mary E. T.

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H. A.

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A correct. Um I always like to start
at the beginning and tell me when you

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were born and where you were born. I
was born in 1939 in the city of

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Chicago on the southwest side where I
lived until I graduated from high

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school. Um had come from a family of
being the only child but live next

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door to a cousin who was a year older
who was like a brother instead in

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that same community, same house as I
said up through high school. What was

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that community like? It was in the
city. Yes it was actually it was a

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wonderful committee, a committee, a
wonderful community pam. There were

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many ethnic groups that had migrated
there. My family grandmother came

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from Poland, many of them did not
speak english. Um but they were very

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close knit family so that I remember
that after my parents divorced, my

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mother had to go back to work and my
grandmother sort of raised me and she

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did not speak english, but it didn't
matter because the the neighborhood

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became family and they were able to
help. So I have very positive memories

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of what that was like. Um and
interestingly enough, I went back to the

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neighborhood just this past june, I
attended my high school's 50th reunion

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, which was really fun, but I was so
pleased when I went through the

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neighborhood. It looked exactly the
same and I could just see myself as a

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child playing in those same areas and
it was a nice feeling. I was not

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sure what to expect, but it was a
very, very pleasant surprise many

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neighborhoods. I know exactly exactly
for better or worse they change. Uh

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, so tell me about growing up, you say
you were an only child. Um, I think

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I had a very happy childhood. The only
area that perhaps was the sad part

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was the divorce and I only saw my
father on once a year which is on

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christmas. But in spite of that, I, as
I said, I felt very much cared for

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and loved my um, my aunt and uncle
lived next door and my cousin became

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sort of like a brother and I just
enjoyed playing with Children, had

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parties all the time. And in fact to
this day, I think I can remember most

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of the neighborhood families by name
which today I can't have my own

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neighborhood because people have moved
so many times. Um I don't have that

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same connection. So in general it was
a very happy time. I enjoyed grade

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school. I found my first love which
was art and had a great teacher who

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encouraged me. Got involved in its
earliest elementary school and became

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the staff reporter for the paper and
all those sorts of things. And so I

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think my early childhood I'm very
grateful for was really quite happy and

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their memories that I still cherish.
Can you say your your grandmother was

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polish? Yes uh spoke polish did you
learn to speak? I can understand it

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but I never learned to speak it. I
think it was a little hesitant on doing

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that. My one um goal on my goal list
which gets larger and larger as I get

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older is to maybe go back and pick up
one of the you know learning by

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audio series which I think would be a
good thing to do. I did go to Poland

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a year ago which was a tremendous
experience for me. Um but I was so sad

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that I could not communicate as much
as I would have liked to. And what

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about you? Talk a little about your
mother, She had to support you and

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what did she do for a living. My
mother, It was a family of five. The only

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one who had two years of high school.
Um And that was through a G. E. D.

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After my father and mother divorced.
Um Her sister older sister helped

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with financing her education to become
a beautician. So she made her

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career as a beautician. And I I
learned a great deal from my mom as a

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professional. She took me to the
hairdressers association meetings and I I

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think I was introduced and
acculturated into what a profession was like

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really early on. I never had desires
to become a beautician. Probably was

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a good thing because I had not been
too good at it as you could tell. Um

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But I did learn about what it was like
to be part of a group that had high

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standards and I think that was a good
preparation for me for my later life

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as a as a professor of having a
working mother and everybody did it.

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That's true, that's true. It was not
an easy time for my mom, it was

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really difficult. So in order to
supplement income, we took in renters and

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had a couple of renters all the time.
And so in many ways that became

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another extended family, other people
living in the house.

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So you went to school right in the
neighborhood, it was a neighborhood

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public school um several, several
blocks, probably at least a mile or more

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to walk, which is probably why we were
in better health in those days. It

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was a regular public elementary school
and as I said, one of the things I

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began to do is show some talent and
art and so the teachers began to ask

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for help. But one of the things I did,
which I probably shouldn't have

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done is found ways to stay out of
going to math and therefore spent that

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time in the kindergarten doing
artwork. So I regret some of that in my

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past life. But I don't regret the
opportunity to, to get reinforcement for

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something today, which has become an
avocation my art

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as you were growing up, did you have
to help work and help support the

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family too. I did some babysitting,
you know, as a youngster and through

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the age of eight on um and then by the
time I got to high school which the

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positive thing that happened with my,
my dad who had not seen for many

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years. I in 8th grade I decided I
wanted to go to a parochial high school

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which had just been built in the
neighborhood was a girls school, a

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Catholic school. My mother couldn't
afford the tuition and my father never

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had really paid for what should have
typically been done through the

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divorce. He was unable to, but he did
help with the tuition. So I had a

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wonderful education at Maria high
school and it was there that I really,

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it finally became interested in
learning. I mean elementary school was

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just a place, but Maria really taught
me the joy of learning languages and

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and a lot of reinforcement for the
humanities which have become a part of

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my life

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and did you have to work to, to help
pay that tuition? I did, I worked at

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a dime store. The people that are
young watching this would not even know

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what that was a variety store and I
was a cashier and that was helpful. So

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you worked early in your life through
high school and then of course

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beyond that forever. Did you have
thoughts as a young girl growing up of

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what you wanted to do with your life
as far as a career or did you think

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you'd have a career? You know, there
were no, no role models? My mention

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my mom becoming the beautician was
one, but there was no one in our family

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that had gone to college. So I really
didn't have anyone to sort of

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emulate at that time or to talk to
about that. So I didn't have

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aspirations to go on to college even
after that wonderful high school

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experience. You know, it was, did very
well and you know, it was on the

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honor roll and all of that, but never
had the, I guess the, the feeling

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that I could do it. Um, and so I did
not go on to college much to the

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chagrin of the sisters of ST Kazimir
who taught me because they actually

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were able to get me scholarships to
some of the local, they have many

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private catholic colleges in Chicago,
but I chose not to go. And that

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changed of course later. But at that
time in my life I didn't really feel

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I had the, whatever it was the
chutzpah to do it, even though the record

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showed the opposite, but I just wasn't
that confident at that time. So

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what did you do after high school? I
got a job at General Electric as a

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file clerk and I'll never forget the,
this the hierarchy of file clerks

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Were interesting. Those who had been
there for more than 15 years were up

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in the front, my desk was the way in
the back and that's what I did for

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about a year and a half. And then at
that point my mother became very

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seriously ill with, there was a strain
of Asiatic flu that was just

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permeating throughout the country. She
really was not getting better and

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her older sister had moved to Arizona
and had a small motel on Van Buren

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and aunt julie and uncle steve invited
my mom and I to come just for her

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to hell. Well we never went back. We
stayed in Arizona and that was a

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pivotal period in my life, a major
change. Um And during that time I got a

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job at a small finance company in
phoenix and um I got fired, which was

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the pivotal that really changed my
life. I it was a finance company and I

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will not mention its name because I
think they're still in existence. But

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this was before the truth and lending
laws were evident and I took it upon

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myself to council many of the people
who came for loans to let them know

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how much interest there really were
paying if they took the loan. And for

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that I was fired. But I years later
wanted to thank the man who had hired

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me. I had never could find him because
it was he in the firing that made

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me go to college. I was so humiliated.
I mean I was just devastated to

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think I had shamed the whole family by
being fired. But it was at that

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time, I remember I had one of 53
Packard at ST mary's and a bingo and

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that's what I was driving and as I was
driving back in that Packard which

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would always, when I stopped the car,
the shift would not shift. So I had

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to get out of the car, open the hood.
So as I was getting out of the car,

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opening the hood I said to myself, I
think maybe maybe this is the time

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you should go to school. And so that
was the that was the time again. I

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wish I had had thanked Mr Kyser for
that doing the firing. That changed my

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life. That's interesting how things
work out. Well, tell me what year was

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it that you came to phoenix then? Well
I'm trying to think I enrolled

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after that firing enrolled at A. S. U.
That was in 1959 so probably two

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years before that was probably um I
graduated in 57. So we shortly after

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that what was Phoenix like? Oh it was
so different, it was a small town at

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that time of course after Chicago
anything was small. Um It was a very

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small town and um when we first moved
we lived at the motel in one of the

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cabins, stayed there for quite a
while.

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People were I think friendly. It was
like almost it was felt like a small

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city and

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a. S. U. Of course my god it was
small. I mean I could walk down the

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campus and say hi to the greater
damage and mrs damage and and they lived

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on the campus. It just it was like
part of the neighborhood I guess that's

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the best way of describing. It was it
was like a neighborhood.

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So you were here at the time that
Grady Gammage was president not only at

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that time but during the name change
which was a fantastic time in one's

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life and to have been there for the
just working for it and but to be

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there for the celebration I could
still remember what it was like and it

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was, we were tearful, it was just like
a gala celebration of something

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that should have happened long before
that. Talk a little bit about that

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that it was remember of course the
campus was so different, it was so, so

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few buildings as they are no longer um
congregating together. Um and I

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don't remember where it was when it
was on the main campus or where we

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were for that, but when the
announcement was made that the, it had passed

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and we would become a university. I
think the process of getting the

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university state has really pulled
people together even to a greater

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community than what they once were. Um
and it made us feel like we had

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accomplished a tremendous deed for the
state and the students were very

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involved in the process of getting
signatures etcetera. It made you feel a

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real sense of identity with the
institution in ways that probably most

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people will never have. Do you feel
like you've really made a difference?

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Talk a little bit about that. Why? Why
did you want to get the name

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changed? And what did, what did your
students do? How did they help

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primarily by the signatures and
petitions? Um also the writing, their

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their their legislatures etcetera. It
was a, I think the process of seeing

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increase our nemesis was always down
in Tucson to see that the university

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status made a difference and it it
gave more status to the institution and

00:14:05.330 --> 00:14:08.866
offered more opportunities for and of
course at that time, I never thought

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about graduate work, but that was also
part of the process.

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It was a wonderful period to be part
of. And especially the end result. It

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was actually an election. It was an
election that it was more than just

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the signature. Exactly. Exactly.
Exactly.

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Was it during a regular election? Was
it especially, I don't remember that.

00:14:32.340 --> 00:14:39.787
Oh my. Mm hmm mm hmm. Um So so you
decided that you've been fired to go

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to college? Exactly. And what were
your thoughts, what were you going to

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study? And I wasn't sure. And so I
wasn't against still living at the

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little cabin motel. Um I wasn't ready
to go to a S. U. I didn't think I

00:14:51.549 --> 00:14:55.986
could handle that but I did enroll at
phoenix college and continue to work.

00:14:56.019 --> 00:15:01.587
Um and took one course and that was a
great positive experience. And then

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it was my mother who really encouraged
me and said you know you need to do

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this. And it was also she who
encouraged me to live on campus which was a

00:15:12.149 --> 00:15:17.596
great burden financially but we were
able to do it. And I moved into

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Gammage Hall. Which is quite ironic
because years later when I became

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president of the faculty senate, that
sleeping porch that I slept and

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became my office. So it was kind of
like coming full circle in a way. And

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I um I wasn't sure what I wanted to
major in but again back to the art

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that kept coming back so I settled on
perhaps maybe teaching art. So I

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ended up in the college of Education
and that was the beginning of the a

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career path that led me in many, many
directions. So you came back

00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:56.396
planning to become a teacher, a
teacher of art

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education rather than the College of
Art. Right. I was an education

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and did teach for a short time. I
enjoyed it but it still wasn't after I

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graduated, it wasn't you know how you
just know that there's something

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missing. Um I love that little ones. I
talked with Scottsdale school

00:16:15.470 --> 00:16:20.677
district and I taught from
kindergarten through through eighth grade, but

00:16:20.710 --> 00:16:25.667
all along when I was at A. S. U. I
came into contact with Catherine

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Nichols early on who was the Dean of
Women and she had encouraged me to

00:16:29.970 --> 00:16:33.876
get involved in student government and
also the Resident's hall program.

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So I became a assistant, had resident
early on almost before I became a

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sophomore and continued with that. And
that really linked me to student

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affairs. And I found my real first
love really was working with adults

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college aged students. And so it was
really her who I think again, you

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know, there's always someone who moves
you towards the path. And Catherine

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had always encouraged me. And once I
finished my degree here she

00:17:02.230 --> 00:17:05.687
encouraged me to apply to other
institutions for a fellowship, which I did.

00:17:05.720 --> 00:17:10.347
And had received actually, I was
pleased I got an offer from Berkeley and

00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:14.937
one from Ohio State and I chose Ohio
State. So we go back a little bit

00:17:14.970 --> 00:17:19.107
about when you were living on campus
here. He said that was financially

00:17:19.140 --> 00:17:22.397
hard for you. Why was it important to
live on campus? And actually was my

00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:25.486
mother's suggestion which I am
grateful for? I'm not sure I would have

00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:29.427
thought I would be able to do that.
She had thought it would be good for

00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:33.786
me to live on because she had this is
a woman who had a G. E. D. But she

00:17:33.819 --> 00:17:39.097
knew enough from her work as a
beautician talking to people who had

00:17:39.130 --> 00:17:42.907
Children who went on to school to know
that living on campus did make a

00:17:42.940 --> 00:17:48.887
difference. And so again I I always
wonder about you know education is one

00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.417
thing but knowledge is a whole other.
My mother seemed to have a great

00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:57.556
deal of knowledge and what were your
options for living on campus? Where

00:17:57.589 --> 00:18:02.597
could you For a freshman? There were
there were several. Um. Gammage was

00:18:02.630 --> 00:18:06.746
the one that I ended up and I had not
really known the differences at that

00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:11.407
point in time. Um There was also Palo
verde at that point it was becoming

00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:15.766
becoming more and more of a sorority
um dormitory. So I don't think there

00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:20.526
were non sorority members there. Um
There were others but I can't right

00:18:20.559 --> 00:18:24.026
now think of what they were but damage
was a perfect choice because it was

00:18:24.059 --> 00:18:29.776
not too large and I immediately got
involved with the student government

00:18:29.809 --> 00:18:34.776
and eventually became a an assistant
to the head resident and and that's

00:18:34.809 --> 00:18:38.607
kind of where it all began to unravel
and unravel, I should say, in a

00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:44.417
positive direction. It was given a
call, you know, um we had a house

00:18:44.450 --> 00:18:48.677
mother. Um we had to sign in in those
days when you went in and out, you

00:18:48.710 --> 00:18:53.697
left the dorm. Uh It was very, it was
a wonderful little family for the

00:18:53.730 --> 00:18:57.677
first time. Was able to meet with
people from across the state. There were

00:18:57.710 --> 00:19:01.806
some out of state students, but there
were few in those days, mostly from

00:19:01.839 --> 00:19:06.427
the small towns and having grown up in
Chicago. It was great to help you

00:19:06.460 --> 00:19:10.826
meet with people who grew up in marin
see and in towns which I had never

00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:16.097
been to or even heard of. Um and I got
very involved as I said immediately

00:19:16.130 --> 00:19:21.506
in student government. Where was the
same place and what we tell people

00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:27.836
where that is. Oh, I'm sorry. It's
like, it was actually, it it was very

00:19:27.869 --> 00:19:34.476
regal with its columns coming up. It's
not as regal of course as as some

00:19:34.509 --> 00:19:41.867
of the other um dorms were, but it
was, it had tremendous class and it had

00:19:41.900 --> 00:19:45.516
a spirit of place if you will, it was
small enough that you felt

00:19:45.549 --> 00:19:53.016
comfortable, but not that unlike a,
the architecture of a college or

00:19:53.049 --> 00:19:59.707
university, it was, it was inviting.
It had a wonderful large

00:19:59.740 --> 00:20:06.516
sort of family room with a piano. And
um so it was a good place and I'm

00:20:06.549 --> 00:20:11.506
very pleased that that was where I
began my my life at a. S. U. Campus.

00:20:11.539 --> 00:20:18.127
Same place right on campus. Um Yeah
what was your room like? Oh it was

00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.137
very small but at that time it seemed
very normal since I grew up in a

00:20:21.170 --> 00:20:26.516
small house. Um It was we were able to
decorate it as we wished accepted

00:20:26.549 --> 00:20:31.157
certain things you couldn't put on the
wall. Um How big was it? It was

00:20:31.190 --> 00:20:34.447
barely there's not enough room. There
were no beds. We had sleeping

00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:41.586
torches where the beds were where the
so the room had just enough for for

00:20:41.619 --> 00:20:45.506
desks. And I think there was like
something it's not a day bed but

00:20:45.539 --> 00:20:50.506
something where you could sit on. So
it was very sparse and very small.

00:20:50.539 --> 00:20:56.566
But I had an interesting roommate who
came from las Vegas. She and I

00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:02.167
became dear friends years and years.
Um We still see each other. She was

00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:07.026
really a maverick and I remember her
first decision was to buy a hot plate

00:21:07.059 --> 00:21:11.697
which of course was a no no and I
always shattered about that. But we

00:21:11.730 --> 00:21:16.316
never got caught anyway we had tea at
the evening which was nice. Um It

00:21:16.349 --> 00:21:22.417
was it was a great place for me and I
felt very comfortable and as I said

00:21:22.450 --> 00:21:26.897
that because I think what changed my
career to directory to go away from

00:21:26.930 --> 00:21:30.657
art teaching. But to think of a career
in student affairs when you say you

00:21:30.690 --> 00:21:34.457
slept on the porch. That's strange to
people today. I know it's a sleeping

00:21:34.490 --> 00:21:40.046
porch and the beds were sort of you
know head toe, head toe, they weren't

00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:45.687
right next to each other. But that was
a common uh I guess a design in

00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:52.546
those days to make the best of space
utilization. Um It worked. Um the

00:21:52.579 --> 00:21:55.187
only time it didn't work when someone
had the flu or whatever, then you

00:21:55.220 --> 00:21:58.907
know, it became somewhat problematic.
But we're the screen porches, they

00:21:58.940 --> 00:22:02.766
were screened porches young. So I
didn't get kind of cold. So they had

00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:07.687
they had, you know, windows that
similar to Chicago that double paned and

00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:10.836
whatever. So they were prepared for.
It was comfortable. It was, it was

00:22:10.869 --> 00:22:15.907
comfortable. But you actually just had
the room was for what studying for

00:22:15.940 --> 00:22:20.566
study. Most people went to the library
as I did my first roommate again

00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:25.316
since I'm very fond of her but she was
not a student. Uh so it was

00:22:25.349 --> 00:22:28.387
difficult to study there. So I, you
know, I found the library to be the

00:22:28.420 --> 00:22:33.026
best place and that worked out just
fine. So what did you use the room for

00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:39.536
then? Oh just primarily to um you know
socialize and store your things and

00:22:39.569 --> 00:22:44.707
etcetera. But most of the activity
occurred in the that open area which

00:22:44.740 --> 00:22:50.217
was kind of like the living room if
you will very different from today.

00:22:50.250 --> 00:22:55.756
Today, they're, I mean they're
apartments. Um And then of course as I,

00:22:55.789 --> 00:23:01.697
when I got to become a sophomore and
junior had moved to Mcclintock Hall,

00:23:01.730 --> 00:23:06.976
which isn't still there. Um And that
was the dorm, that was the honor dorm

00:23:07.009 --> 00:23:09.707
and and that was a great experience.
That was more like, that was

00:23:09.740 --> 00:23:13.937
wonderful. It had a little sitting
room and it had your own bathroom and

00:23:13.970 --> 00:23:17.306
and that was that was lovely.

00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:22.127
It was going like from rags to riches
from damage to Mclyntock bathrooms.

00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:28.296
Oh, they're out in the hall, you had
to go to the community bathrooms

00:23:28.329 --> 00:23:36.329
described. I can't, that's a little
bit foreign what buildings existed and

00:23:36.740 --> 00:23:40.607
maybe some of the student activities

00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:44.806
we're going on at that time.

00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:52.107
Sure. Maybe the relationship of yeah,
she was, she was the dean of women

00:23:52.140 --> 00:23:55.897
and then I think later she was the
associate dean of students. But the

00:23:55.930 --> 00:23:59.496
campus was, it always has been
beautiful. I mean it's the grounds have

00:23:59.529 --> 00:24:06.197
been exceptionally kept and um, it was
what was so wonderful about it. You

00:24:06.230 --> 00:24:10.667
could go to class and most of the
major buildings were there. The new, of

00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:14.917
course we know that this has changed
dramatically with high rise

00:24:14.950 --> 00:24:20.986
structures, et cetera, but it was in
spite of its size at that time and

00:24:21.019 --> 00:24:27.066
you felt like you were in a huge
university. Um the uh, in the faculty, I

00:24:27.099 --> 00:24:31.367
think I had a couple of very large
classes, Doctor stinky and Biology. Of

00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:34.947
course everybody had to take up life
science. So That was in one of the

00:24:34.980 --> 00:24:40.187
larger lecture halls, but for the most
part they were in small rooms, 30

00:24:40.220 --> 00:24:45.286
people in the class at most. So you
really got to know the professor and

00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:49.607
you certainly got to know your
colleagues, your students, the student body.

00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:54.367
Um And as I mentioned when I first
came it was not uncommon, you know to

00:24:54.400 --> 00:25:00.726
be able to say hi to Dr Gammage and
Catherine Gammage. Um It was different

00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:04.097
and I treasure those memories because
of course you know I have different

00:25:04.130 --> 00:25:08.006
memories today. They're equally as
positive but it would not have been

00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:13.296
that easy to come to A. S. U. Um Today
what about your meals, where did

00:25:13.329 --> 00:25:21.329
you eat? Um I had a meal ticket and we
Typically left eight of the Emu. Um

00:25:22.650 --> 00:25:30.650
And that was the the process. Yeah
right right for me. Yeah. Most people

00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:34.296
dropped the meal ticket I did after a
while and there were a couple of

00:25:34.329 --> 00:25:39.026
places to go when where the College of
nursing is. There was a little um

00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:43.336
perfect place. I mean a tiny little
hole in the wall and food was great.

00:25:43.369 --> 00:25:48.746
And so we always found those places as
well. And the College of Education

00:25:48.779 --> 00:25:54.927
, where was that located? It was um
the College of Education was

00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:58.746
principally in the same area where we
are now. Um Not here but that's

00:25:58.779 --> 00:26:03.427
where the college is located. Um, but
what it had, that was unique was

00:26:03.460 --> 00:26:08.397
pain Training School. Um, and that was
a wonderful opportunity for those

00:26:08.430 --> 00:26:12.707
of us who aspired to be teachers
because we could have first in knowledge

00:26:12.740 --> 00:26:16.766
and experience of actually being part
of the school. And of course the

00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.586
pain Training school was a unique
school. It wasn't like the regular

00:26:19.619 --> 00:26:24.687
public school, but it did give us an
opportunity to observe and interact

00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:29.336
early on in our training to see if
indeed this is what we wanted to do. It

00:26:29.369 --> 00:26:33.627
was unique. What made it unique. It
was unique because again, being a

00:26:33.660 --> 00:26:36.917
training school, they were on the
cutting edge of trying different

00:26:36.950 --> 00:26:41.086
curriculum teaching methods that
perhaps would not have taken place in

00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:49.119
just a regular um, school and I know
it was very different. Um, they had

00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:54.687
try different interactions. I know one
of the things that I found myself

00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:59.187
being very attracted to is how they
could use the humanities and Arts and

00:26:59.220 --> 00:27:02.947
teaching even if you were teaching
science. And so I don't think much of

00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:05.957
that occurred in the traditional
public schools, not because they didn't

00:27:05.990 --> 00:27:10.556
want to, but I don't think they have
the, the facility or the funds to do

00:27:10.589 --> 00:27:14.726
it, but the training school, many of
the faculties Children went there and

00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:21.500
, and so it was a cutting edge place
to be and that was a great experience.

00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.640
I'm gonna stop for one second only because sometimes, no, no, you rubbed

00:27:29.970 --> 00:27:34.036
the mic a little bit, but I'm going to
move the Michael because you you

00:27:34.069 --> 00:27:39.726
tend to do that I guess. I'm just so
you're italian I guess I have, I've

00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:46.107
been around too many Italians, it's
okay, good.

00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:53.326
Um so you see after um teaching for a
few years and it was, it was just

00:27:53.359 --> 00:28:00.026
short was about a year, um I began to
apply for graduate college or

00:28:00.059 --> 00:28:04.476
graduate school and as I said, I
applied to Berkeley in Ohio State and

00:28:04.509 --> 00:28:09.726
then went on to Ohio State. I had a
fellowship there and at that point I

00:28:09.759 --> 00:28:16.546
um I shifted my focus and I guess
realizing art had somewhat limited

00:28:16.579 --> 00:28:23.066
possibilities and um ended up getting
a masters in counseling. And and at

00:28:23.099 --> 00:28:28.046
that point I really found I think my
my love, I've been doing the

00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:32.056
counseling in a sort of non
professional way while being assistant head

00:28:32.089 --> 00:28:37.306
resident and I love doing it, I felt,
but I maybe have the capacity to to

00:28:37.339 --> 00:28:43.957
understand and to listen and uh to be
empathic and and I found that this

00:28:43.990 --> 00:28:48.707
was the correct choice, but I realized
after that experience, uh and

00:28:48.740 --> 00:28:52.016
getting the masters, it wasn't enough
if I really wanted to really be

00:28:52.049 --> 00:28:55.496
involved in helping people, I needed a
doctorate. Well it looks like you

00:28:55.529 --> 00:28:59.717
got that master, pretty masters pretty
quickly I did with the thesis. So

00:28:59.750 --> 00:29:02.816
it was a hard, it was, but it was a
full fellowship actually moved back to

00:29:02.849 --> 00:29:07.776
Ohio. Yeah I lived in a rooming house
in columbus which was great. It was

00:29:07.809 --> 00:29:11.996
a good experience. So how long were
you in Ohio? I was there for the

00:29:12.029 --> 00:29:16.907
duration of that year and finished the
the thesis within that summer and

00:29:16.940 --> 00:29:23.627
um and came back um so your intention
was always to come back to Arizona

00:29:23.660 --> 00:29:27.816
or what was your um actually at that
point the coming back was also for a

00:29:27.849 --> 00:29:34.566
short period I got married um soon
after I came back and my my husband had

00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:40.286
taken a job with General Electric and
had received the territory where he

00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:46.187
was in the lamp division of GE was in
Orange county California. So there I

00:29:46.220 --> 00:29:52.667
was moving again and this time it was
to further west to Tustin And Orange

00:29:52.700 --> 00:29:59.127
County 1st. Excuse Me to Tustin in
Orange County And that was about 1960 4.

00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:04.947
4. Yeah four and 5. So how long were
you in California? I was there for

00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:09.907
quite a significant period. I ended up
at a small women's college working

00:30:09.940 --> 00:30:14.667
in their counseling center at Mount ST
mary's College. Um it was an

00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:20.556
interesting period in life again we
couldn't afford two cars Ron had to be

00:30:20.589 --> 00:30:24.766
G at X. Time and I need to be at the
Mount which was a long way from

00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:29.677
Tustin. We couldn't afford to live
near Mt the Mt before I got to

00:30:29.710 --> 00:30:36.306
California. I was interviewed for that
job in somewhere not anywhere near

00:30:36.339 --> 00:30:41.147
Arizona. I think it was in Missouri.
I've flown there from from Ohio for

00:30:41.180 --> 00:30:45.357
that interview and and got the job but
I had never seen mount ST mary's

00:30:45.390 --> 00:30:48.957
college. So I remember saying to Ron
listen before I come, why don't you

00:30:48.990 --> 00:30:52.796
get a little apartment near the
college, You know something cheap so that

00:30:52.829 --> 00:30:56.046
we can you know get our money together
and we can eventually get a better

00:30:56.079 --> 00:31:00.937
place. He said okay well he of course
knew this is near Brentwood and U. C.

00:31:00.970 --> 00:31:04.397
L. A. And you know the average
apartment was probably a zillion dollars.

00:31:04.430 --> 00:31:10.117
Uh And so anyway we ended up living
far far away from the mount, it was an

00:31:10.150 --> 00:31:13.467
hour and a half one way and we had one
car. So it was an interesting

00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:18.917
period of time, but a great place to
start. One's career, A women's

00:31:18.950 --> 00:31:24.556
college as I mentioned. Um And in
spite of the fact they were very well

00:31:24.589 --> 00:31:29.647
suited for their college experience.
They too had many problems. So I I

00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:33.076
had my opportunity to really get
introduced to what counseling and

00:31:33.109 --> 00:31:38.387
psychology is about. Well how did you
get there? Ron drove me, we got up

00:31:38.420 --> 00:31:42.276
at 4:00 AM and drove the one hour and
a half, one way drop me off and then

00:31:42.309 --> 00:31:46.597
he went to his job which was another
hour and a half. It was you know it

00:31:46.630 --> 00:31:49.707
was tough but we managed, we were
young and you know, you have a lot of

00:31:49.740 --> 00:31:52.407
energy and everybody else was doing
it? So it wasn't like you were unique

00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:59.607
. I know there were no busses, no or
or trolleys by then streetcars were

00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:01.806
gone.

00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:07.467
So there's a reel line now. I know, I
know, but it's just you know, things

00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:12.576
have changed in a very positive way.
My my my sister in law lives in

00:32:12.609 --> 00:32:18.036
Irvine and they used that the light
rail. Oh it's great. Yeah. It is, it's

00:32:18.069 --> 00:32:24.647
wonderful apartment. Did you? I was
gonna say so you know. I know but it

00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:28.137
was you know, I remember driving
through this through the hill and he'd

00:32:28.170 --> 00:32:31.246
say now which of these do you think
you know we should look at and I

00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:35.286
thought oh my gosh looking back it
wasn't that much but it seems like a

00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:41.006
lot. It was yeah, Couple $100 a month

00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:43.707
back then.

00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:51.740
So you we're counseling there, what do
you think that um I wasn't planning

00:32:51.740 --> 00:32:55.907
to but my husband's father and
stepmother were killed in an auto accident

00:32:55.940 --> 00:33:01.907
and he was the only child. And so he
came back to run the family business

00:33:01.940 --> 00:33:08.187
and it was Arizona brake and clutch
supply. So he we came back that was

00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:14.326
the reason and you know, you just to
those things, it was difficult but I

00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:20.306
also knew we all knew all along that
um you know somehow no matter what, I

00:33:20.339 --> 00:33:23.236
would go on and finish the degree. It
may not be immediately, but I would

00:33:23.269 --> 00:33:28.336
do it. So you were working, when did
you start working then on your doctor

00:33:28.369 --> 00:33:36.369
, when we were back in in Arizona, I
had decided that I really wanted to

00:33:38.170 --> 00:33:42.117
complete it and I'm kind of losing
track of some of the time period there

00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:49.137
, but I applied to several
institutions but the one that I always wanted

00:33:49.170 --> 00:33:57.170
to go to was USC and so I applied and
of course was admitted. Um And as I

00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:03.056
think back somehow again I'm confusing
the time periods but we were I was

00:34:03.089 --> 00:34:07.516
already enrolled at USC and taking the
course work um when the parents

00:34:07.549 --> 00:34:12.117
died and that's when we came back. So
I had already had kind of a head

00:34:12.150 --> 00:34:18.977
start at USC. Anyone getting a PhD had
it go through several courses, you

00:34:19.010 --> 00:34:24.276
have to take courses in X. Y. Z. And
that coursework then had to be

00:34:24.309 --> 00:34:28.686
challenged by an exam and that gave
you the entree to go into your subject

00:34:28.719 --> 00:34:34.227
area. So I was in the process of
completing that and um did that finished

00:34:34.260 --> 00:34:41.247
it and and then ended up completing
the the doctorate up until the

00:34:41.280 --> 00:34:44.677
dissertation. It was at that point
that we came back to Arizona. So I'm a

00:34:44.710 --> 00:34:48.546
little fuzzy so you'll have to excuse
me about that on the timing of it.

00:34:48.579 --> 00:34:55.807
But essentially I ended up doing the
dissertation from Arizona

00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:03.157
did a s you offer a doctorate at that
time. They did but I get I don't

00:35:03.190 --> 00:35:07.816
believe that it was a counseling psych
degree and I don't even know if the

00:35:07.849 --> 00:35:13.997
the doctorate, they had a master's of
counseling program and I'm not sure

00:35:14.030 --> 00:35:16.907
if they did have a doctorate.

00:35:16.940 --> 00:35:20.396
It looks like you came back to work at
A. S. U. I did during the time you

00:35:20.429 --> 00:35:25.316
did your doctor write at USC. I did
that and that was when I was working

00:35:25.349 --> 00:35:27.606
on the dissertation.

00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:32.666
I really just thought Ron had as I
said compared to run the family

00:35:32.699 --> 00:35:40.046
business and I really felt I needed to
complete that process. And so I

00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:47.106
thought perhaps if I could enter the
university in some position it would

00:35:47.139 --> 00:35:51.407
perhaps maybe give me an entree to a
possible position. I began to think

00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:55.367
Ron would not leave the business, he
felt a commitment to his dad so we

00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.887
would probably stay here and um I
hunted and hunted and there were no

00:35:59.920 --> 00:36:06.876
positions that I saw that were
advertised. And at that point I was so

00:36:06.909 --> 00:36:10.956
involved with my dissertation was on
alienation and existential

00:36:10.989 --> 00:36:17.517
frustration among college students and
I was so involved with the The

00:36:17.550 --> 00:36:21.666
disenfranchised disenfranchisement of
students. And partly because I was

00:36:21.699 --> 00:36:25.146
feeling some of that myself during
that that was the heir of the 60s and

00:36:25.179 --> 00:36:30.057
it was very prevalent. And so I began
to as I began to think of applying

00:36:30.090 --> 00:36:32.807
for a job, I thought you know I need
to apply in a way that people really

00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:36.017
know who I am and they have to take me
as I you know, that sort of

00:36:36.050 --> 00:36:41.117
existential stuff. So I designed my
vita unlike the one you have there on

00:36:41.150 --> 00:36:46.686
a beautiful color of orange burnt
orange. And I did it in the style of E.

00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:53.876
E. Cummings with no punctuation or
caps and at the top of it said I am Me.

00:36:53.909 --> 00:36:57.856
There were three pages I sent it out
and got no reply. In fact then it

00:36:57.889 --> 00:37:02.657
was in an envelope that said um
something about

00:37:02.690 --> 00:37:08.936
today is a good day bold print. Well
it's not a surprise nobody responded

00:37:08.969 --> 00:37:14.247
except one person from here and that
was nelson Henderson. He was at that

00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:18.896
time the the chair of the secondary a
department and then part of that

00:37:18.929 --> 00:37:23.977
department offered a program and
foundations Philosophy Sociology History

00:37:24.010 --> 00:37:30.577
of Ed. And they had an opening. And so
he responded, it turned out to be a

00:37:30.610 --> 00:37:36.077
wonderful friend I think so highly of
him. So he gave me the opportunity

00:37:36.110 --> 00:37:43.017
to um come into the College of Ed and
teach. And

00:37:43.050 --> 00:37:47.166
he said you know he would not have
probably invited me but it was that

00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:53.486
unusual vita okay that he was curious
and chris if you know him he's a

00:37:53.519 --> 00:38:01.519
very expressive artist type person who
loves dance and music. So he well

00:38:02.110 --> 00:38:06.367
thank goodness he was the one who
opened the envelope. All right, we

00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:10.327
wouldn't be sitting here today
probably. And so what what was that job?

00:38:10.360 --> 00:38:15.467
What did you do? It was a again, it
was part of the Foundation's course of

00:38:15.500 --> 00:38:21.166
preparing people with an overview of
philosophy, sociology, history in

00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:26.706
preparation for their teacher read
program. And where was your office or

00:38:26.739 --> 00:38:32.736
where did you teach? What building I'm
trying to think of. Um I think the

00:38:32.769 --> 00:38:38.686
the the red building was relatively
new and for a while we taught

00:38:38.719 --> 00:38:44.077
somewhere else and I don't recall
where that was. Um But that was being

00:38:44.110 --> 00:38:48.677
built, if I'm not mistaken. So, I was
sort of in two places, a temporary

00:38:48.710 --> 00:38:55.387
place and the college of that
building, Not the new one, but the older one.

00:38:55.420 --> 00:38:59.497
And so that's where the christmas
began. So then did you move into the

00:38:59.530 --> 00:39:03.456
new building? You know, I don't think
it was. I think not. I don't, again

00:39:03.489 --> 00:39:09.887
, that's fuzzy in my mind right now as
many things are,

00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:16.617
mm hmm. Mhm. Who were you teaching?
They were primarily juniors. They had

00:39:16.650 --> 00:39:21.387
finished all their prior coursework
and they were beginning to take

00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:26.077
courses to prepare to become a teacher
and that included things like micro

00:39:26.110 --> 00:39:31.887
teaching before television before they
just student taught. That was fun.

00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:36.477
Um And a number of other courses. I
think I taught one of the sociology of

00:39:36.510 --> 00:39:42.557
education um and um etcetera. So they
were the preliminary courses that I

00:39:42.590 --> 00:39:48.387
think most teacher preparation
programs require

00:39:48.420 --> 00:39:53.606
for the large classes. Um probably
about 35 was considered as an average

00:39:53.639 --> 00:40:01.639
class. Um that was pretty much the
norm.

00:40:03.210 --> 00:40:08.617
Did you like that child? I enjoyed the
teaching but I still felt something

00:40:08.650 --> 00:40:10.677
unfinished

00:40:10.710 --> 00:40:16.697
and I think I know that that
unfinished part was the the process of

00:40:16.730 --> 00:40:23.546
helping people and the process of the
whole notion of um psychology

00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:31.579
counseling and and that really I think
became my my love. And so that was

00:40:33.409 --> 00:40:41.077
where the next stage of my life began
to to become a reality.

00:40:41.110 --> 00:40:44.816
We'll talk about, how did how did that
come about then? You need to change

00:40:44.849 --> 00:40:50.106
from teaching education. It was
through again and one has to thank and

00:40:50.139 --> 00:40:56.876
perhaps someone beyond us had
something to do with this. Um We had a

00:40:56.909 --> 00:41:03.876
change of Dean's in the College of Ed
and Gladys johnson became the Dean

00:41:03.909 --> 00:41:09.287
and at that time the provost was Jack
in Singer. It was also at the time

00:41:09.320 --> 00:41:12.847
the very time when the at that time it
was called the counselor Ed

00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:17.807
department. Now it's the counseling
psych department. Um we're going

00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:22.396
through a visitation by the american
Psychological Association for their

00:41:22.429 --> 00:41:29.287
accreditation and there was a concern
because there were no women in that

00:41:29.320 --> 00:41:37.320
unit that were licensed psychologists.
And so dr johnson, Gladys johnson

00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:46.887
in concert with the provost, Jack
Kinzinger met with the to share that

00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:51.847
department and suggest that they do
something about it. And it just so

00:41:51.880 --> 00:41:57.267
happened both. Um Sharon Sharon had
done her work at indiana University

00:41:57.300 --> 00:42:00.546
and I had done mine at USC We had all
the coursework, we were never

00:42:00.579 --> 00:42:06.276
licensed. So the provost was willing
to pay for both of us to go through a

00:42:06.309 --> 00:42:09.666
crash course, you know, as they do for
law and all the other professions

00:42:09.699 --> 00:42:17.077
to pass the licensure exam and we did
and passed and we then joined that

00:42:17.110 --> 00:42:21.227
unit and that's where I spent the
remainder of my career, which was

00:42:21.260 --> 00:42:25.467
wonderful. It was truly was coming
home.

00:42:25.500 --> 00:42:29.157
We'll talk about that. What what was
that unit? How big was it, Who did

00:42:29.190 --> 00:42:34.026
you work with? Right. It was a
combined unit offering the master's in

00:42:34.059 --> 00:42:39.166
counseling which was a 60-hour program
and pretty intense And also a

00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:42.867
doctoral program that was quite
selective. They took approximately six a

00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:48.436
year and I was able to work both with
the master students and the doctoral

00:42:48.469 --> 00:42:53.927
students and it truly was a joy and
the students were outstanding and many

00:42:53.960 --> 00:42:58.066
of the, the students that I worked
with, we were able to publish combined

00:42:58.099 --> 00:43:03.177
dissertations and both of us got quite
a bit of mileage out of that and we

00:43:03.210 --> 00:43:08.767
were able to go to professional
meetings and I could sort of help them to

00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:13.847
get introduced to what it's like to be
a professor and co chair papers

00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:18.407
with them. And it was, it was probably
the highlight of my life. It was a

00:43:18.440 --> 00:43:23.166
wonderful experience and I'm still in
contact with them and in fact I

00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:28.776
probably adopted grandmother to half
of their kids. I have such fun fun

00:43:28.809 --> 00:43:33.137
memories and it was a fantastic way
to, I don't want to say in my career

00:43:33.170 --> 00:43:37.086
that's just another move to a
different direction. But the highlight of my

00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:42.717
career with A. S. U. Um I will forever
be grateful to as I said to Jack

00:43:42.750 --> 00:43:48.046
and considering Gladys johnston for
allowing both Sharon and I to make

00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:53.447
that change and move. So you moved
from the from the education to the

00:43:53.480 --> 00:43:57.577
counseling psych program which is
called today?

00:43:57.610 --> 00:44:03.166
Yeah. Yeah not uncommon. Um It's it's
different across the country,

00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:08.477
depends on what their history was and
but it's not uncommon to be either

00:44:08.510 --> 00:44:14.327
in the site, the program or in the
college of it. So did you actually do

00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:18.847
counseling also teaching people to do
counseling? Right. But also you know

00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:22.657
we have the counselor training center
there and patients came her clients

00:44:22.690 --> 00:44:27.606
came and so we were part of the
process of helping students to go through

00:44:27.639 --> 00:44:33.727
that. Um So we did have a clientele
that came to the center and and that

00:44:33.760 --> 00:44:37.157
was interesting and very good
experience.

00:44:37.190 --> 00:44:44.296
And then um I did that and as I became
very involved in being a factory

00:44:44.329 --> 00:44:51.706
members. You know once load is also to
do research and so early on is when

00:44:51.739 --> 00:44:57.467
I made the transfer to the counseling
psych I decided that the focus of my

00:44:57.500 --> 00:45:01.767
research should be suicide. I had lost
a very close friend who had taken

00:45:01.800 --> 00:45:07.177
her life and it really bothered me
greatly, I mean, it was an unfortunate

00:45:07.210 --> 00:45:13.126
law. She was a very creative and
talented woman, um who herself is a

00:45:13.159 --> 00:45:18.876
social worker. And and it was through
that experience that I I became

00:45:18.909 --> 00:45:23.236
convinced if I could make any change,
I would like to do it there. And so

00:45:23.269 --> 00:45:26.197
I spent the rest of my career in that
field, and that's where all my

00:45:26.230 --> 00:45:31.447
researches and much of my
publications, you want to talk about some of

00:45:31.480 --> 00:45:37.577
that research? What what was the first
research that you I think the the

00:45:37.610 --> 00:45:39.756
first

00:45:39.789 --> 00:45:46.956
research was primarily to get a sense
of the magnitude of college students

00:45:46.989 --> 00:45:54.989
, feelings of both alienation and and
frustration, but more than that, um

00:45:55.719 --> 00:46:02.686
severe depression and suicide
ideology, the thinking about suicide. So, I

00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:07.506
spent considerable time researching a
variety of college students, in

00:46:07.539 --> 00:46:10.686
particular, different subcultures of
students. I mean, during the sixties

00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:14.157
, there were these unique little
clusters. It's harder today, I think, to

00:46:14.190 --> 00:46:17.787
, to to do that. But, you know, they
were the nontraditional kids, the

00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:21.756
hippie type kids who were really doing
things that were oftentimes

00:46:21.789 --> 00:46:24.827
aggravating, but yet we're making
positive change. And then, you know,

00:46:24.860 --> 00:46:27.947
there were the vocational ist the kids
who came to college, like I did

00:46:27.980 --> 00:46:33.026
eventually wanted to become a teacher
and knew that, you know, soon. Um,

00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:36.967
and there were, you know, the variety
of different against subcultures of

00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:39.736
students and they were the non
committed ones who just didn't quite know

00:46:39.769 --> 00:46:43.166
where they belong to. So I was
interested in looking at. Are there

00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:47.506
differences among those students and
their feelings of disenfranchisement

00:46:47.539 --> 00:46:53.776
or alienation or existential
frustration and that started it and then it

00:46:53.809 --> 00:46:59.756
was that became my my life commitment.
Um So the suicide issue went on and

00:46:59.789 --> 00:47:03.807
I became very involved with the,
became part of the board of directors for

00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:09.447
the Suicide prevention center and work
closely with its director Eileen.

00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:15.997
And um through that I was able to get
make contact with the National

00:47:16.030 --> 00:47:20.486
Association of Suicidology, the
American Association of Suicidology, and

00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:24.617
spent most of my time delivering
papers having done research in that

00:47:24.650 --> 00:47:29.706
subject. It was very, very rewarding.
I can say, I mean, one of the few

00:47:29.739 --> 00:47:34.986
people that can say research was more
than just a um collegial experience.

00:47:35.019 --> 00:47:39.436
It was truly um hopefully made a
difference. What was the suicide

00:47:39.469 --> 00:47:45.447
prevention? The suicide prevention
center still exists in Arizona

00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:53.480
offers training for staff. Um Various
entities on um isolating and um

00:47:57.480 --> 00:48:03.836
determining um suicidal behavior,
catching signs and symptoms, early

00:48:03.869 --> 00:48:07.456
training school districts. And so a
great deal of what I did in terms of

00:48:07.489 --> 00:48:12.006
my service was to do that sort of
thing, um particularly through working

00:48:12.039 --> 00:48:15.037
through the counselors in the public
schools and it was through those

00:48:15.070 --> 00:48:17.856
contacts. I was able to get the
approval to do a lot of the research

00:48:17.889 --> 00:48:21.497
because this is not a topic that
school districts are excited about, not

00:48:21.530 --> 00:48:25.747
that they're interested in doing
anything negative, but it's not a topic

00:48:25.780 --> 00:48:29.456
that they feel comfortable with. So I
felt very fortunate because we had

00:48:29.489 --> 00:48:33.566
done such good research with the
students in counseling psych. We had

00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:38.526
established a reputation and I think
that gave me the entree to continue

00:48:38.559 --> 00:48:42.637
to do that research in the schools.

00:48:42.670 --> 00:48:45.997
It seems like some point in their they
started to have like suicide

00:48:46.030 --> 00:48:50.336
prevention hotlines they do. In fact
that's been very helpful much of it.

00:48:50.369 --> 00:48:56.236
In fact most of its run by students
themselves or our young people. Um and

00:48:56.269 --> 00:49:00.197
there are also professionals there to
help. Um But yes, there's quite a

00:49:00.230 --> 00:49:03.166
bit has been done over the years since
I became involved in that. And then

00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:07.756
the american Association of
Suicidology is a wonderful resource of of

00:49:07.789 --> 00:49:15.637
helping. Mhm. Schools programs
entities to give them some aid in helping

00:49:15.670 --> 00:49:20.566
if they need instruments to determine
and check if there is suicidal

00:49:20.599 --> 00:49:25.736
behavior, you know, to new invention
interventions that might be useful.

00:49:25.769 --> 00:49:31.916
Um It's a very large group of people
that are involved in suicidology and

00:49:31.949 --> 00:49:35.046
then in a wonderful group and people
ask me god, how do you go to those

00:49:35.079 --> 00:49:38.396
meetings, isn't it depressing? They're
the most upbeat people I've ever

00:49:38.429 --> 00:49:43.046
met and probably they have to be to
stay in that area of research. But

00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:48.537
they're really people are very
creative and very positive.

00:49:48.570 --> 00:49:54.807
Good good models for all of us had had
suicide been a problem at A. S. U.

00:49:54.840 --> 00:49:59.706
Uh at that time, not any particular
difference than what was happening

00:49:59.739 --> 00:50:04.566
across the country, but what was the
same here as elsewhere is, you know,

00:50:04.599 --> 00:50:10.727
the the concern about what to do about
it and what's the best way to to

00:50:10.760 --> 00:50:17.026
fine do the prevention and find out
early on so you can intervene. Um So

00:50:17.059 --> 00:50:20.606
our institution here has been always,
I think on the cutting edge of

00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:25.126
making sure that there were enough
counseling staff and people available

00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:32.327
in psychologists to to intervene. But
um there's always much to learn. Um

00:50:32.360 --> 00:50:38.416
we never know enough to stop it. So we
still struggle. Have you seen that

00:50:38.449 --> 00:50:42.887
change? Over the years? I think what I
have seen change that is very

00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:46.376
hopeful is the school districts
themselves now, the universities were

00:50:46.409 --> 00:50:51.367
always there. Um but the public
schools were somewhat reticent to even get

00:50:51.400 --> 00:50:55.427
involved with this topic for fear that
it might, the typical fear was if

00:50:55.460 --> 00:50:58.717
you talked about it, they might do it.
Which of course isn't the case. The

00:50:58.750 --> 00:51:01.327
students who are in trouble and are
very depressed need to talk to

00:51:01.360 --> 00:51:07.267
somebody. Um So over the years that
the public schools and private schools

00:51:07.300 --> 00:51:11.637
have become much more sophisticated
about knowing um out of sight out of

00:51:11.670 --> 00:51:17.907
mind is not the best intervention.
There are ways that one can, can look

00:51:17.940 --> 00:51:23.697
ahead and and make plans to eradicate
the problem before it begins. Um So

00:51:23.730 --> 00:51:27.956
because of my again, earlier research
with the schools, it was easier to

00:51:27.989 --> 00:51:31.577
be able to do. I think more of the
training that we did in the school

00:51:31.610 --> 00:51:39.427
districts as well as the research.

00:51:39.460 --> 00:51:45.026
Mm hmm. Is there any particular
experience in that that stands out? That's

00:51:45.059 --> 00:51:48.577
something you want to talk about that.
I think if I were to say anything

00:51:48.610 --> 00:51:54.997
about the topic, I would really
encourage anyone who has any hint that

00:51:55.030 --> 00:52:01.816
someone they know or care about is in
trouble to get them help immediately.

00:52:01.849 --> 00:52:07.217
And it's not a it's something that one
should be shameful of. Its

00:52:07.250 --> 00:52:13.456
depression is common across the
country and all disciplines. Severe

00:52:13.489 --> 00:52:19.077
depression is what typically leads to
to suicide. And oftentimes parents

00:52:19.110 --> 00:52:24.506
are not aware of the symptoms and
signs. Teachers are not aware. Um, and

00:52:24.539 --> 00:52:29.316
so I think if we could do anything, it
would be to encourage the

00:52:29.349 --> 00:52:37.197
appropriate bodies through schools
etcetera to continually be trained in

00:52:37.230 --> 00:52:41.617
interventions and how to identify kids
who are in trouble and at risk. Um

00:52:41.650 --> 00:52:46.296
, and not be fearful of the topic. Um,
it's an invitation to maybe save a

00:52:46.329 --> 00:52:51.186
life and it's certainly worth doing.
So is your focus primarily on young

00:52:51.219 --> 00:52:56.997
people and suicide primarily. Although
I did have a small grant to do some

00:52:57.030 --> 00:53:03.236
research on the aged, which is a whole
major topic. Um, but my work

00:53:03.269 --> 00:53:08.416
Princey was was focused on
adolescents.

00:53:08.449 --> 00:53:12.126
We'll talk a little bit more about the
university and how it's changed

00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:17.606
over the years. Obviously you're one
because you came here so young um you

00:53:17.639 --> 00:53:24.407
actually were here when it changed its
name dr damage was exactly um talk

00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:27.936
about some of the other presidents or
you were here when when he passed

00:53:27.969 --> 00:53:35.969
away. Yes, I was um I think probably
the so many of the president's had, I

00:53:37.050 --> 00:53:42.637
can't um say enough about the changes
because I was a recipient of that um

00:53:42.670 --> 00:53:49.106
as a faculty member um I think I
became closest to over time, but probably

00:53:49.139 --> 00:53:53.927
because of where I was in my own
career during the years of j. Russell

00:53:53.960 --> 00:54:00.657
nelson and Leddy Cour. And and I think
having the opportunity,

00:54:00.690 --> 00:54:06.606
particularly in the end of my career,
which is as that came to a close

00:54:06.639 --> 00:54:10.606
shortly before and obviously I've been
retired for 10 years, but one of

00:54:10.639 --> 00:54:15.057
the highlights of my career that I
think played a major role in how I feel

00:54:15.090 --> 00:54:20.336
about the university, which is very
positive. It was during the the laddie

00:54:20.369 --> 00:54:24.097
cours period I had at that time been
elected president of the faculty

00:54:24.130 --> 00:54:29.126
senate and in that role I was able to
sit

00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:32.847
and absolutely part of observing what
was going on with the border regions

00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:38.086
, sat with the president's council um
and was able to see what the

00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:42.586
university is like and how it runs
itself, it was and as you know that it

00:54:42.619 --> 00:54:46.847
was probably couldn't have found a
better president to have that

00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:51.646
opportunity to serve in the Senate
because he was very open to um faculty

00:54:51.679 --> 00:54:58.157
governance and very wanting to, to um
work in a collegial way, which he

00:54:58.190 --> 00:55:03.557
did. So I that experience was truly
was one of the highlights of my career.

00:55:03.590 --> 00:55:09.066
Um I found how difficult it is to be
an administrator in an institution

00:55:09.099 --> 00:55:14.916
of this size, um and how difficult it
is to make change, but because of my

00:55:14.949 --> 00:55:20.727
earlier career as a faculty member
here, I I don't know where the courage

00:55:20.760 --> 00:55:25.436
came from, but I was always willing to
take the risk and I did file

00:55:25.469 --> 00:55:29.486
agreement since against the university
to make change. And one of them was

00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:34.657
a very major one and that was a time
when they did not advertise jobs and

00:55:34.690 --> 00:55:39.666
several of us went to the powers to be
and it didn't change and after

00:55:39.699 --> 00:55:43.276
filing a grievance, I realized that
that is the way to do business and

00:55:43.309 --> 00:55:49.506
it's not a bad thing to do and things
can change in a positive way. Um and

00:55:49.539 --> 00:55:53.006
it wasn't, you know, going in
badmouthing anyone, it was doing the right

00:55:53.039 --> 00:55:57.177
thing in the right way. Uh it gave me
the courage and I think that courage

00:55:57.210 --> 00:56:01.876
came from Catherine Nichols, um if you
don't like it, change it and do it

00:56:01.909 --> 00:56:06.097
in the right way. And I think being in
student affairs most of my life

00:56:06.130 --> 00:56:09.206
that was part of the principles that
we were taught and what we tried to

00:56:09.239 --> 00:56:15.486
practice and so I thought it was okay
and anyway, um I I loved being

00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:18.907
involved with the university. I took
some risks and hopefully made some

00:56:18.940 --> 00:56:23.287
good changes and I think they were,
but I learned more than I gave. I

00:56:23.320 --> 00:56:27.416
learned so much from the
administrators who have the courage to say Arlene

00:56:27.449 --> 00:56:31.247
come here, I want to teach you
something. Um many of my colleagues never

00:56:31.280 --> 00:56:36.827
had that experience and I did, I feel
very, very grateful for that. Can

00:56:36.860 --> 00:56:41.486
you think of any examples of when that
happened? I think yes, I think the

00:56:41.519 --> 00:56:45.506
example, I mean I said I'm gonna be in
signing filing the grievance before

00:56:45.539 --> 00:56:48.347
I did that. I went to all the
administrators including the president and

00:56:48.380 --> 00:56:52.057
said this is what I'm doing and I want
and I want you to know why. I think

00:56:52.090 --> 00:56:57.307
it was during the, the period of that
they was right kind of in between

00:56:57.340 --> 00:57:02.517
the nelson and core presidency. So I
actually that process took more than

00:57:02.550 --> 00:57:07.867
when president was through both of
those presidents. Um I always went to

00:57:07.900 --> 00:57:12.497
the person or persons that we're going
to be most affected, explain what I

00:57:12.530 --> 00:57:16.887
was doing and why and thought that I
wanted to do it in a positive way.

00:57:16.920 --> 00:57:22.626
That would be most useful. I think I
learned again through my work and

00:57:22.659 --> 00:57:26.606
student affairs and the university as
a young person observing other

00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:30.847
administrators that there are ways you
can handle difficult situations but

00:57:30.880 --> 00:57:36.117
you can do them without um hurting
people. We're talking in some more

00:57:36.150 --> 00:57:40.467
specifics about this grievance that
you it was the process, as I said, it

00:57:40.500 --> 00:57:43.467
was during the early period when the
university was going through its

00:57:43.500 --> 00:57:50.497
maturation. Um and at that time there
was not a protocol for advertising

00:57:50.530 --> 00:57:53.767
all administrative advertising all
positions. There were some positions

00:57:53.800 --> 00:57:58.706
that were never advertised, they were
not the faculty positions or the

00:57:58.739 --> 00:58:03.577
high higher um power, if you will,
administrative positions. They were

00:58:03.610 --> 00:58:11.186
pretty much the entry level positions
and some of them were um um at the

00:58:11.219 --> 00:58:15.626
entry level, I would say in terms of
they were not tenure track positions

00:58:15.659 --> 00:58:18.637
and things of that nature, but there
were several positions, many of them

00:58:18.670 --> 00:58:26.057
were non academic um and again going
through the steps and meeting with

00:58:26.090 --> 00:58:30.586
the appropriate administrators and
then going through the the appropriate

00:58:30.619 --> 00:58:34.577
academic grievance process as well as
a prize in the Senate, the faculty

00:58:34.610 --> 00:58:38.927
senate, this was a problem and they
had their own committees that began to

00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:44.086
get involved with those issues. So
working in tandem with all of that um

00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:48.247
change happened and they were it was
positive change. Why was it a problem

00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:51.617
that they weren't advertised? I think
again, I think it's part of the

00:58:51.650 --> 00:58:56.477
again, the maturation of how personnel
is handled, it wasn't something

00:58:56.510 --> 00:59:02.947
that just happened overnight. Um
academic, the whole affirmative action

00:59:02.980 --> 00:59:09.646
process did not just stop and change.
You know, there it took some some

00:59:09.679 --> 00:59:14.117
doing for that kind of change. I
probably should idea that this is tape

00:59:14.150 --> 00:59:20.247
too with Arlene.

00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:24.686
Thank you. Sure. We have encouraged.
Okay.

00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:29.316
Mhm. During your career here, were
there other challenging times and

00:59:29.349 --> 00:59:36.046
things that you were confronted
budgets and things like that or changes in

00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:38.367
administration?

00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:44.876
I think um as I mentioned, I think
posted dialogue this morning, the

00:59:44.909 --> 00:59:51.767
challenge was always change and I
think um I am very but I said grateful

00:59:51.800 --> 00:59:56.626
to the experiences that I had here
some were we're challenges in the sense

00:59:56.659 --> 01:00:02.526
that I perhaps maybe it wasn't ready
myself for the next step. But one of

01:00:02.559 --> 01:00:07.767
the things that I if I ever to say
anything in terms of my experience here

01:00:07.800 --> 01:00:15.117
at the university um I've received
tremendous help every time I I whether

01:00:15.150 --> 01:00:19.916
I came into an administrator's office
to share a concern about something

01:00:19.949 --> 01:00:26.106
that should be changed, I was always
treated with respect and I think that

01:00:26.139 --> 01:00:29.867
gave me a great deal of confidence and
I you know I tried to share that

01:00:29.900 --> 01:00:33.736
with my colleagues, you know it's okay
and if you you know I even said if

01:00:33.769 --> 01:00:37.477
you have to file a grievance to make
to bring this to attention then you

01:00:37.510 --> 01:00:43.477
do what you need to do. But I've never
been afraid of that and I think

01:00:43.510 --> 01:00:47.646
only the reason I am because I am not
a person, people know me, I am not

01:00:47.679 --> 01:00:52.117
someone who you know is just
gangbusters and I wish I were at times, maybe

01:00:52.150 --> 01:00:55.506
it would be different or easier. But
that's not me. So you know, I go

01:00:55.539 --> 01:00:58.046
through the methodical steps and try
to, maybe it's because I'm a

01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:01.706
psychologist. I also think of the
other person's feelings or whatever that

01:01:01.739 --> 01:01:06.247
is. Um and that has been very helpful
to me. I think my training has

01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:11.276
really prepared me to, to feel
comfortable

01:01:11.309 --> 01:01:17.597
I guess rubbing the wrong way or
hustling feathers or or bringing to

01:01:17.630 --> 01:01:20.796
attention to someone that something's
not working right. And is there

01:01:20.829 --> 01:01:24.836
anything I can do to help or is there
some way we can as a faculty change

01:01:24.869 --> 01:01:29.557
this. And of course the, I couldn't
have asked for at the end of my career

01:01:29.590 --> 01:01:33.157
here to have worked with Gladys sure
because he was so prepared for that,

01:01:33.190 --> 01:01:39.646
that was who he was. And so um, I
ended my career in a tremendously pi

01:01:39.679 --> 01:01:43.747
positive note. I learned a great deal
from him, watching him as an

01:01:43.780 --> 01:01:49.927
administrator and I think it was a
great role model for me And I noticed

01:01:49.960 --> 01:01:54.577
here that you were 12 years as an
associate professor and then you became

01:01:54.610 --> 01:02:00.907
a professor retired right that my goal
was to not retire until I became a

01:02:00.940 --> 01:02:06.456
professor. Um It took me that long to,
to get to that state because when I

01:02:06.489 --> 01:02:12.347
moved to the counseling site program,
the standard was higher in terms of

01:02:12.380 --> 01:02:17.206
research and uh and it was a
difference and not to mention the standards

01:02:17.239 --> 01:02:20.436
of the past and other departments were
less. It was just a different type

01:02:20.469 --> 01:02:23.947
of program. And they were, as I said,
the american Psychological

01:02:23.980 --> 01:02:31.677
Association approved program. And so
the research had to be

01:02:31.710 --> 01:02:37.477
produced in refereed journals of in
psychology. And um, so it took me a

01:02:37.510 --> 01:02:43.847
while to catch up. Um but as I said,
it was it was a gift in a sense to be

01:02:43.880 --> 01:02:47.787
able to work with the doctoral
students who were really by partners in

01:02:47.820 --> 01:02:51.126
that process. So in getting the grants
and I did get many for the suicide

01:02:51.159 --> 01:02:56.637
prevention. And so just about all of
my research is in that area and and

01:02:56.670 --> 01:03:00.836
they were a part of that with me. It
seems like once you became a full

01:03:00.869 --> 01:03:04.526
professor that you would have wanted
to stay and enjoy that a little. You

01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:08.997
know, I had, I thought about that, but
I also had during this sort of

01:03:09.030 --> 01:03:14.537
journey that we're talking about had
breast cancer. And thank goodness it

01:03:14.570 --> 01:03:20.597
was not, it had been staged to and it
was not metastasized. And so I was

01:03:20.630 --> 01:03:24.097
able, I did have a bilateral message
but at that changed my life and I

01:03:24.130 --> 01:03:28.597
began to think, you know, life is
tenuous, we don't know. And I thought of

01:03:28.630 --> 01:03:32.486
all the things I still hadn't done and
I thought I knew if I stayed, I'd

01:03:32.519 --> 01:03:37.387
be as involved in that What 60 page
Vida you have, there will become 70

01:03:37.420 --> 01:03:42.227
pages. But I wanted to do some things
that I felt I couldn't do if I were

01:03:42.260 --> 01:03:46.767
continuing my involvement here at the
university on the faculty. So that

01:03:46.800 --> 01:03:50.416
was what changed my mind and it was a
good choice. I'm glad I made the

01:03:50.449 --> 01:03:55.046
choice and it I still feel a great
part of this institution but it was my

01:03:55.079 --> 01:04:02.697
time to retire. So you retired from.
Exactly right. Talk about what you

01:04:02.730 --> 01:04:06.057
did. It was not something I planned to
do, but it was sort of again one of

01:04:06.090 --> 01:04:13.057
those serendipity again um one of my
doctoral students that I had mentored

01:04:13.090 --> 01:04:18.267
had invited me to join her and her
husband and her her Children. She was

01:04:18.300 --> 01:04:21.807
looking at for an office to practice
and she had finished her degree in

01:04:21.840 --> 01:04:28.997
our program past the licensure exam
and and I became a psychologist and so

01:04:29.030 --> 01:04:33.747
I did and uh and I said I know I don't
really have a lot of time but I'll

01:04:33.780 --> 01:04:36.506
be happy to look at it. But then let's
go for ice cream with the kids and

01:04:36.539 --> 01:04:39.526
then I'll have to skip away. Well
before the ice cream melted. I signed

01:04:39.559 --> 01:04:43.677
the lease. So I was in practice with
her for for I think it was about two

01:04:43.710 --> 01:04:48.626
or three years and then I retired. So
it was kind of like a little

01:04:48.659 --> 01:04:53.356
retirement at the beginning through A.
S. U. And then the real retirement

01:04:53.389 --> 01:04:59.227
after that. So you were in private
practice with her. Yeah it was great. I

01:04:59.260 --> 01:05:04.057
learned so much. I wish I had done
that earlier. What I learned I then

01:05:04.090 --> 01:05:10.146
tried to transfer to to pass on. I was
very active in the Arizona psych

01:05:10.179 --> 01:05:15.137
association at that time. And I
decided I would do parlor sessions for the

01:05:15.170 --> 01:05:20.706
new psychological faculty, faculty.
But professionals, they had just been

01:05:20.739 --> 01:05:24.876
licensed and we're now just going into
private practice and they were

01:05:24.909 --> 01:05:28.387
having problems not knowing how to
start a practice. I learned so much

01:05:28.420 --> 01:05:31.836
that period of time that I was in
practice. I wish I had known it while I

01:05:31.869 --> 01:05:35.646
was still on the faculty. I knew
nothing. I knew nothing about business. I

01:05:35.679 --> 01:05:39.717
knew nothing about how do you get
clients? How do you advertise? I mean

01:05:39.750 --> 01:05:43.106
that was just you know in the dark and
most graduates are because we don't

01:05:43.139 --> 01:05:47.447
really teach those nuts and bolts
things. So I decided I would run a

01:05:47.480 --> 01:05:51.756
series of parlor sessions called the
nuts and bolts of starting a practice.

01:05:51.789 --> 01:05:54.506
And what was wonderful about it. And I
had it in my home and we did it at

01:05:54.539 --> 01:05:58.727
different homes. Many of my former
students came back and we had a chance

01:05:58.760 --> 01:06:03.747
to kind of rien Kindle many of those
memories. So I learned so much during

01:06:03.780 --> 01:06:09.117
that period. I'm glad I went into
practice. I I admire my colleagues who

01:06:09.150 --> 01:06:14.186
have done this all their life. It's a
tremendous job, a wonderful job and

01:06:14.219 --> 01:06:17.367
it's very rewarding. What are some of
the specific things, What did you

01:06:17.400 --> 01:06:21.537
learn by going in private? Oh, I
learned for, Well, as I just mentioned,

01:06:21.570 --> 01:06:24.177
one of the things we need to change
our curriculum and prepare our

01:06:24.210 --> 01:06:29.316
students for the nuts and bolts part
in addition to the, the, the

01:06:29.349 --> 01:06:34.907
counseling and the, the interaction
with, with clients and patients. I

01:06:34.940 --> 01:06:38.977
learned a lot about insurance, which I
just never had to deal with except

01:06:39.010 --> 01:06:43.706
from one's own personal self insurance
to get paid is through clients. I

01:06:43.739 --> 01:06:46.526
understand now why are physicians are
tearing out their hair and

01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:50.267
psychologists are and psychiatrists
and other people in the helping

01:06:50.300 --> 01:06:54.336
professions? Um, there are a lot of
things that, I mean they seem so

01:06:54.369 --> 01:06:57.356
obvious, but they weren't for someone
like us in spite of all the

01:06:57.389 --> 01:07:02.867
education. I mean, I was truly a
neophyte and I learned from my colleagues.

01:07:02.900 --> 01:07:05.557
But anyway, those parlor sessions were
great. Many of my former students

01:07:05.590 --> 01:07:09.916
came back and, and with the topics
changed over time. And, and eventually

01:07:09.949 --> 01:07:13.117
I gave that up because it was taking
too much time away from why I retired

01:07:13.150 --> 01:07:18.847
and, and back to our conversation.

01:07:18.880 --> 01:07:22.077
Are there any other besides the
insurance and business or that? What else

01:07:22.110 --> 01:07:25.126
did you learn by being in private
practice? That was different? I think I

01:07:25.159 --> 01:07:29.197
learned something that was difficult
for me and that is how you had to

01:07:29.230 --> 01:07:32.606
promote yourself and toot your horn. I
mean, you know, if you're in

01:07:32.639 --> 01:07:36.066
business, you have to say that you're
the best, it's you know, it's just

01:07:36.099 --> 01:07:41.066
sort of uncommon kind of mismatch if
you will. Um So I learned you know

01:07:41.099 --> 01:07:48.166
ways to to be myself and still I think
be true to what I was doing. As I

01:07:48.199 --> 01:07:52.646
said, it was it was a great
experience. It's a very hard one. I'm not sure

01:07:52.679 --> 01:07:57.177
that I would not have chosen that as a
full career. It's an exhausting

01:07:57.210 --> 01:07:59.447
process.

01:07:59.480 --> 01:08:03.057
Not the teaching is difficult, it's
not difficult but if there are, you

01:08:03.090 --> 01:08:08.416
know, it's a whole different life and
Mhm very very different. What is

01:08:08.449 --> 01:08:13.477
exhausting about it is that the
individual relationship with clients or I

01:08:13.510 --> 01:08:20.397
think the exhaustion is the you don't
have a lot of lead time between

01:08:20.430 --> 01:08:26.416
getting sort of catching your breath
in teaching. You have a class, maybe

01:08:26.449 --> 01:08:32.137
three hours and then you have time off
to recuperate to kind of recharge

01:08:32.170 --> 01:08:36.217
your batteries and to prepare for the
next step In practice. You have 10

01:08:36.250 --> 01:08:42.027
minutes And it was very change 10
minutes that you write your notes as

01:08:42.060 --> 01:08:46.126
quickly as you can. And I didn't do
Shorthand um before you open the door

01:08:46.159 --> 01:08:51.217
and say, oh please come in, my name is
dr to you know uh it was difficult

01:08:51.250 --> 01:08:54.857
. I had to learn different ways and I
couldn't do the kind of note taking

01:08:54.890 --> 01:08:58.496
that I did when I was a professor, you
have to work as quick as you can

01:08:58.529 --> 01:09:05.237
and hope you can get it all down and
later be able to read it. Um So I

01:09:05.270 --> 01:09:10.717
think it was just a whole change of
the way you did business. Um And I

01:09:10.750 --> 01:09:13.536
found that difficult.

01:09:13.569 --> 01:09:17.237
So is that something that you think
should be taught to? I don't know, I

01:09:17.270 --> 01:09:22.777
think there should now with the the
electronic gadgets we have, you'd have

01:09:22.810 --> 01:09:27.406
to get permission from the patient or
client to use it and I found that it

01:09:27.439 --> 01:09:32.296
was not something I was comfortable
doing. I found that might be um a

01:09:32.329 --> 01:09:36.987
wedge of some sort. So I learned over
time to take my own shorthand and

01:09:37.020 --> 01:09:42.147
then re type them later. But it was it
was a learning curve, you know it

01:09:42.180 --> 01:09:45.826
was a late in life but I'm glad I had
it because I know I can appreciate

01:09:45.859 --> 01:09:50.906
what are colleagues do and and have
made those suggestions to our our

01:09:50.939 --> 01:09:54.727
program as they prepare. A
psychologist has made any changes in the

01:09:54.760 --> 01:10:01.067
program, I'm not sure, I haven't
really checked on it because I've been so

01:10:01.100 --> 01:10:04.927
busy being retired. I don't get to see
my colleagues as much as I'd like.

01:10:04.960 --> 01:10:10.977
I do see my secretary and we both go,
she is my partner um tickets to the

01:10:11.010 --> 01:10:14.406
things chamber society. So we go
regularly and I kind of get the Scooby

01:10:14.439 --> 01:10:17.166
doop on what's happening in our
department but I don't get up there as

01:10:17.199 --> 01:10:22.027
often as I'd like just too busy being
retired. What else are you doing to

01:10:22.060 --> 01:10:26.147
keep busy while you're retired. Oh, I
have many, many things going on. I

01:10:26.180 --> 01:10:30.227
actually, I'm still involved in in
teaching but not with the counseling

01:10:30.260 --> 01:10:35.357
psych program. I've been doing some
sharing of dissertations and helping

01:10:35.390 --> 01:10:39.737
research with some of the doctoral
students that are in the division of

01:10:39.770 --> 01:10:46.296
leadership policy studies, their
native americans from Window Rock, um,

01:10:46.329 --> 01:10:50.696
primarily Navajos and they're working
on their own doctorate. And it's a

01:10:50.729 --> 01:10:54.336
wonderful program and I've had a
chance to work with several other

01:10:54.369 --> 01:10:59.166
students and their research and
finding that to be really only challenging.

01:10:59.199 --> 01:11:02.126
 But another gift

01:11:02.159 --> 01:11:04.626
post retirement.

01:11:04.659 --> 01:11:12.659
Um, absolutely. Oh, did you ever
return to your art? Um, and I'm not as

01:11:13.220 --> 01:11:18.067
not as much as I'd like, but I have
and I continue with it every summer I

01:11:18.100 --> 01:11:25.496
with another a colleague we rent a
baby little apartment in san luis

01:11:25.529 --> 01:11:33.529
Obispo. It's um, primarily for seniors
like us. And it's typically housing

01:11:33.909 --> 01:11:38.347
for cal poly students during the year.
And so this is about the fourth or

01:11:38.380 --> 01:11:41.177
fifth year that we've been doing it
and they have an artist who comes in

01:11:41.210 --> 01:11:45.406
every summer offers a program in
collage and I had never been exposed to

01:11:45.439 --> 01:11:48.746
collage and I love it. And so I've
been trying, I haven't done anything

01:11:48.779 --> 01:11:51.866
special, but I'm hoping maybe one day
to have a show of combining the

01:11:51.899 --> 01:11:56.227
collage with watercolor, which are two
of them types of medium that I'm

01:11:56.260 --> 01:12:00.376
most interested in. So I don't do as
much as I'd like, but that's the

01:12:00.409 --> 01:12:03.796
summers when I do and I just love it
and suddenly this, but I don't know

01:12:03.829 --> 01:12:06.946
if you've been there, it's just the
mecca for everything and they have a

01:12:06.979 --> 01:12:11.727
fantastic Mozart series in the summer
and you know, the it's just a

01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:15.906
fantastic place. So that's my gift to
myself after working so hard, all

01:12:15.939 --> 01:12:21.807
these years, every summer in san luis
Obispo, that was great. You should,

01:12:21.840 --> 01:12:27.006
it's called valencia and the price is
right, and it's, it's a cousin that

01:12:27.039 --> 01:12:30.307
lives in Atascadero. Well that's what
I've been up there, it's pretty

01:12:30.340 --> 01:12:37.256
there. Mhm. Um looking back on your
career at issue, is there anything

01:12:37.289 --> 01:12:41.277
that you're particularly proud of
that? Did you think back on your career

01:12:41.310 --> 01:12:43.717
,

01:12:43.750 --> 01:12:48.046
I think I'm proud of maybe having been
able to give back some of what I

01:12:48.079 --> 01:12:52.487
gained and I was so fortunate to have
received from the people at this

01:12:52.520 --> 01:12:58.916
institution. Um and I think maybe, but
really crystallized, that was

01:12:58.949 --> 01:13:02.717
shortly after retirement, I had gotten
to James Chrisman award for

01:13:02.750 --> 01:13:07.227
outstanding service to the university
and alumni and I think that was the

01:13:07.260 --> 01:13:13.406
, maybe the pivotal point of saying um
maybe I did make us somewhat of a

01:13:13.439 --> 01:13:18.416
difference and I learned more than I
gave. There's no question about that.

01:13:18.449 --> 01:13:22.416
 Mhm.

01:13:22.449 --> 01:13:26.817
How would you like people here to
remember you?

01:13:26.850 --> 01:13:32.847
Oh, I think I'd like them to remember
me as someone who it was a gentle,

01:13:32.880 --> 01:13:39.116
caring person. I think those are the
adjectives

01:13:39.149 --> 01:13:41.807
thinking back over your career? It
seems like you've taken a lot of

01:13:41.840 --> 01:13:46.177
interesting twists and turns. What
advice do you have for young people

01:13:46.210 --> 01:13:51.817
that are trying to decide what they
want to do. Mm hmm. I think the first

01:13:51.850 --> 01:13:55.737
point of advice I'd suggest is to
think of yourself as being sort of like

01:13:55.770 --> 01:13:58.416
an open flower.

01:13:58.449 --> 01:14:03.046
Maybe you need to close the pedals in
the evening, but open them again in

01:14:03.079 --> 01:14:06.687
the morning. Not to think about
whatever choice you make is not going to

01:14:06.720 --> 01:14:10.916
be forever. And not to be afraid to
make choices. Even if they may not

01:14:10.949 --> 01:14:13.876
have been the right ones. Because you
learned something from that too. And

01:14:13.909 --> 01:14:18.076
I certainly did. I made some bad
choices. But I learned from those and

01:14:18.109 --> 01:14:24.017
those were just as important. So I
think if believe in yourself, that's

01:14:24.050 --> 01:14:29.237
the first step. And as you heard my
journey, I didn't believe in myself a

01:14:29.270 --> 01:14:33.517
lot. At the beginning. I was pretty,
pretty insecure. And I'm sure that

01:14:33.550 --> 01:14:37.307
there are still students even this day
who have those feelings. And so I

01:14:37.340 --> 01:14:42.107
think if I was giving any advice, it's
okay to feel that it's normal. Um

01:14:42.140 --> 01:14:46.977
but surround yourself by people who
are caring and gentle and who will

01:14:47.010 --> 01:14:52.357
help you through those hard steps and
take the risk the last if you don't

01:14:52.390 --> 01:14:55.916
do it, you don't make it in the way
you wished you haven't failed. You

01:14:55.949 --> 01:15:03.347
just learned a great lesson and I
would suggest that very good advice. Is

01:15:03.380 --> 01:15:06.796
there anything else that you wanted to
talk about today that I didn't ask

01:15:06.829 --> 01:15:14.416
you about? I think um the one thing
that I have difficulty with dealing

01:15:14.449 --> 01:15:19.006
with and that's having some memory
problems you may have found those to be

01:15:19.039 --> 01:15:23.046
as I asked you to repeat things it's a
real challenge. This is the biggest

01:15:23.079 --> 01:15:27.786
challenge I've had. It's gonna be
bigger still a human being and still

01:15:27.819 --> 01:15:33.706
have those tears. It's it's the
biggest

01:15:33.739 --> 01:15:36.906
um

01:15:36.939 --> 01:15:42.987
I know there's no there is no cure but
I am I've gone through the psyche

01:15:43.020 --> 01:15:50.647
develops psyche belts and there's been
some cognitive decline. Um There's

01:15:50.680 --> 01:15:52.807
also

01:15:52.840 --> 01:15:59.977
the future which will probably this
will continue. I've had been treated

01:16:00.010 --> 01:16:04.097
by a psychiatrist with some meds
hasn't helped very much. So I did make an

01:16:04.130 --> 01:16:09.357
appointment that just yesterday with
the U. C. L. A. On neuropsychiatric

01:16:09.390 --> 01:16:14.187
program they have there for two days
of assessment. I'm not looking for a

01:16:14.220 --> 01:16:17.246
cure. I know that's not possible but
there may be some things that I can

01:16:17.279 --> 01:16:22.097
do that might help. Um And it's not
going to help. I mean I think I'm

01:16:22.130 --> 01:16:26.967
aware of its not going to help change
it or arrested but maybe ways that I

01:16:27.000 --> 01:16:32.097
can deal with it. So I'm not
embarrassed.

01:16:32.130 --> 01:16:37.756
What do you think about it

01:16:37.789 --> 01:16:45.446
as a professor. I mean the thing you
do you um c as your your gift is your

01:16:45.479 --> 01:16:51.397
mind. And so I guess if I had to have
a challenge, I got I got a big one.

01:16:51.430 --> 01:16:55.397
But I'm learning. It's been a couple
of years since it's been diagnosed

01:16:55.430 --> 01:16:58.887
and I'm giving that.

01:16:58.920 --> 01:17:03.626
I almost said no to you when I got the
call. I thought I'm gonna make an

01:17:03.659 --> 01:17:08.637
ask of myself. I won't remember what
you asked me. How did I do? You know

01:17:08.670 --> 01:17:13.796
, you forgot maybe some dates but
everybody forgets. Yeah. But you know,

01:17:13.829 --> 01:17:17.487
but it's it's not the long term memory
and I thought that I can tell you

01:17:17.520 --> 01:17:21.977
what I ate for breakfast when I was
five. But it's the, you know, just the

01:17:22.010 --> 01:17:27.826
it's the short term, you know, just in
the last three minutes. Um, and I

01:17:27.859 --> 01:17:32.706
was not aware of it until some of my
very close friends began to let me

01:17:32.739 --> 01:17:38.347
know that I just asked that question.
Um, so I know there's no cure. But I

01:17:38.380 --> 01:17:42.767
am looking for some ways that I can,
you know, deal with it in a way that

01:17:42.800 --> 01:17:47.857
I can still feel good about myself. So
it's it's a way and it truly is

01:17:47.890 --> 01:17:53.857
coming full circle now. I'm the
patient and I'm I'm getting some good help

01:17:53.890 --> 01:17:59.696
and I'm I'm looking forward to the
future and they're making some progress.

01:17:59.729 --> 01:18:02.467
 No question,

01:18:02.500 --> 01:18:08.897
definitely, definitely. But it's
always the the somewhat fear of

01:18:08.930 --> 01:18:15.326
embarrassing yourself or so if I can
only do what I teach my former

01:18:15.359 --> 01:18:21.696
students to do is be yourself and be
up front, let them know. They'll see

01:18:21.729 --> 01:18:26.267
this in any of your family. My mother,
she did not have Alzheimer's thank

01:18:26.300 --> 01:18:32.137
goodness, but Did have dementia. Not
as early as mine started about 58.

01:18:32.170 --> 01:18:37.977
It's giving up 58 and 58. Right now,
I'm sorry 68, I'm 60, about 65.

01:18:38.010 --> 01:18:43.017
That's when I began to notice it. Um,
so for my mother, it came later. She

01:18:43.050 --> 01:18:48.416
, I have, my father died at 92. My
mother died at 91. So maybe I'll still

01:18:48.449 --> 01:18:52.256
be around. I'm hoping I'll still be
around with, you know, the, the

01:18:52.289 --> 01:18:57.817
ability to, you can have conversations
like we have today, but if not, I

01:18:57.850 --> 01:19:01.057
don't know, somehow you get the energy
and the courage from somewhere and

01:19:01.090 --> 01:19:08.296
I have deep faith and my religion. And
so I feel like no matter what it

01:19:08.329 --> 01:19:10.887
sounds like you're still enjoying life
with your art, definitely,

01:19:10.920 --> 01:19:16.286
definitely. And just, you know,
staying close to people I care about. And

01:19:16.319 --> 01:19:22.506
that's, that gives me the, the reason
to be Well, I'm very glad you

01:19:22.539 --> 01:19:26.557
decided to, I am too. Thank you for a
wonderful interviewer. I really

01:19:26.590 --> 01:19:30.196
shared some wonderful insight into the
early years, even when you were a

01:19:30.229 --> 01:19:34.427
student is important to record those
stories and it was unusual. Not too

01:19:34.460 --> 01:19:40.416
many of our colleagues were students
here and came afterwards. So I feel

01:19:40.449 --> 01:19:45.017
in many ways very fortunate to have
seen the change and Katherine Nichols.

01:19:45.050 --> 01:19:49.906
Thanks. And the man I wanted to thank
for firing me. I never could find

01:19:49.939 --> 01:19:53.357
him. I tried and there was no way to
trace him down and he did change my

01:19:53.390 --> 01:19:57.256
life. So get you know, those hard
knocks are sometimes the best

01:19:57.289 --> 01:20:03.597
experiences we've had. People say that
for sure. Isn't that true? Thank

01:20:03.630 --> 01:20:08.630
you so much for the opportunity. Thank
you in your health.