WEBVTT 00:00:05.740 --> 00:00:07.740 Today is December 2, 2019 We are conducting an interview for the Arizona 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:17.967 State University retirees association video history project. We are 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:23.087 located today in the A. S. U. Community Services building. I'm fred Corey 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:27.607 vice provost for undergraduate education. 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:33.847 The technical support staff today include john McIntosh on camera, roger 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:41.880 carter audio David Petzel interview crew, linda Vance coy director turning 00:00:42.350 --> 00:00:47.957 now to the interviewee, please introduce yourself stating your name and 00:00:47.990 --> 00:00:55.317 your position at A S. U. When you retired Kristin Burr big valentine 00:00:55.350 --> 00:01:02.057 Emeritus Professor of human communication in the huge down school of Human 00:01:02.090 --> 00:01:04.206 communication 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:11.777 when I retired. 00:01:11.810 --> 00:01:16.566 Tell us about yourself your early childhood where you were born. I was 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:22.936 born in michigan as you were in East Lansing and my parents were both 00:01:22.969 --> 00:01:28.917 theater and music oriented people. So I grew up around a lot of that and a 00:01:28.950 --> 00:01:34.007 lot of snow and where did you go to Grade school grade school was central 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:40.566 school in East Lansing. And then from there I went to the University of 00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:48.599 Wisconsin and I got my MBA at the University of Wisconsin And then my 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:54.397 during the years that I was at the University of Wisconsin, I also went to 00:01:54.430 --> 00:01:59.727 the University of Hawaii and took a course in hula dancing which I did not 00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:07.126 do very well at and uh came back but I actually got my my B. A. There and 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:12.867 then later got an MBA at the University of Washington in Seattle and then 00:02:12.900 --> 00:02:20.517 my PhD at the University of Utah in Salt Lake City and I know part of your 00:02:20.550 --> 00:02:24.406 career. You you worked in speech and hearing sciences, it's not, did my 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:29.606 first, my first go back to my all my paid jobs because that was one of the 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:34.927 questions. My first paid job was a swimming instructor, I was a camp 00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:39.756 counselor, then I became a speech therapist because that was my training 00:02:39.789 --> 00:02:46.066 as a, as an undergraduate. And I started off with speech therapy and I got 00:02:46.099 --> 00:02:51.286 good at it, but I needed a challenge. So that's when I went for my 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:56.416 Master's degree and at that point I discovered oral interpretation of 00:02:56.449 --> 00:03:02.106 literature which is much closer to communication and the world opened up 00:03:02.139 --> 00:03:06.856 at that point. And then I went on to get a PhD in that area. What do you 00:03:06.889 --> 00:03:12.497 mean? The world opened up suddenly, there were so many things to learn 00:03:12.530 --> 00:03:18.916 about literature and theater and communication and audiences and how to 00:03:18.949 --> 00:03:24.126 make a difference in the world through what communication can teach more 00:03:24.159 --> 00:03:30.897 than just helping individuals. I was a great school speech therapist. So 00:03:30.930 --> 00:03:38.307 teaching johnny and jane how to not lisp was 00:03:38.340 --> 00:03:46.340 another important thing to do, but for me, I wanted something bigger. 00:03:49.139 --> 00:03:52.457 So maybe talk a little bit about the oral interpretation of literature 00:03:52.490 --> 00:03:58.006 because that was a big part of your life here at a S. U. 00:03:58.039 --> 00:04:02.557 So let me start for you or it's the study of literature as an act of 00:04:02.590 --> 00:04:04.606 speech 00:04:04.639 --> 00:04:11.876 Yes, taking a, taking a piece of literature. Either you've written it 00:04:11.909 --> 00:04:19.909 yourself or it's been published and you learn how to get inside the 00:04:21.110 --> 00:04:27.837 literature and have it encompass your whole body and be able to 00:04:27.870 --> 00:04:35.707 communicate that piece of literature to an audience. So it's a reader 00:04:35.740 --> 00:04:43.740 writer audience and they all become one if you've done a really good job. 00:04:44.100 --> 00:04:48.067 So if I take a phrase like 00:04:48.100 --> 00:04:53.197 William underdone bacon 00:04:53.230 --> 00:04:58.156 and you can see it in your head, then I've done a good job of 00:04:58.189 --> 00:05:02.397 communicating that image. 00:05:02.430 --> 00:05:08.226 And then you take an audience, you take an idea and maybe you put together 00:05:08.259 --> 00:05:15.507 a whole series of pieces of literature, let's say literature about war. 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:21.806 And you put together a series of poems and stories and personal narratives 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:29.257 about war, but it's the literature which is the center of it. But the idea 00:05:29.290 --> 00:05:33.447 is you're communicating it to an audience, so they're not so much 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:41.366 interested in you, but they see the words and their head, I'm I'm about to 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:48.406 do uh a program at, at Friendship Village 00:05:48.439 --> 00:05:56.439 dealing with literature and I will try to embody that idea myself. People 00:05:56.790 --> 00:06:03.156 will see, and here is I'm doing a Ron Carlson stories. Ron Carlson used to 00:06:03.189 --> 00:06:08.007 be in the english department here and 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:12.137 he wrote, you wrote a number of stories. So I'm gonna be reading those 00:06:12.170 --> 00:06:19.786 stories and I hope I can do what I teach, making literature come alive in 00:06:19.819 --> 00:06:26.246 the audience. I want the audience to come alive. Not long look at me, but 00:06:26.279 --> 00:06:33.490 look how good this literature is. What would you add because you're tired. 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:35.839 Um No, I think that your description is actually very beautiful and now do 00:06:39.389 --> 00:06:43.517 you ever listen to audiobooks now? Often I'd love to listen to audiobooks 00:06:43.550 --> 00:06:48.817 boy, the right reader makes a huge difference. Oh yes. 00:06:48.850 --> 00:06:55.036 Michelle Obama reads her own book, the book that she wrote. Gosh, she 00:06:55.069 --> 00:07:00.387 reads well I mean it's her words and she's reading it, but they're also 00:07:00.420 --> 00:07:06.207 very some very good storytellers, good people who really know how to take 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:13.366 a text and and and I would like to see it in my head. I like I like that 00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:20.147 better than better than movies and videos and pictures. I want to see the 00:07:20.180 --> 00:07:23.596 story in my head 00:07:23.629 --> 00:07:28.806 and I want to make it happen in your head and your head and your head. 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:36.507 Right 00:07:36.540 --> 00:07:41.556 before I came here to teach, I taught at the University of Kentucky in 00:07:41.589 --> 00:07:48.527 Lexington and I wanted to get back out west because I had come out here to 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:56.560 ski and seeing blue skies and mountains and ski slopes that are huge and I 00:07:58.910 --> 00:08:05.916 wanted to get back west. So a job opened up at A S. U. And I was then 00:08:05.949 --> 00:08:10.507 hired by um 00:08:10.540 --> 00:08:16.817 Bill Arnold who was chair of the department and that becomes an 00:08:16.850 --> 00:08:24.850 interesting story in that. Bill Arnold was Chair of really three areas 00:08:25.740 --> 00:08:29.637 speech therapy, which I knew something about theater, which I knew 00:08:29.670 --> 00:08:33.967 something about and communication and oral interview, which I knew a lot 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:41.006 about and he was in charge of all three of those and then they had subheds 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:48.077 and norm peril and Jan Elsie, you knew them, we're in charge of the, the 00:08:48.110 --> 00:08:51.207 communication part. 00:08:51.240 --> 00:08:55.457 Now we were in the College of Fine Arts. So many of the communication 00:08:55.490 --> 00:08:59.657 people said, what are we doing in fine arts because we're social 00:08:59.690 --> 00:09:04.986 scientists and so we don't, we don't want to be part of that. And so they 00:09:05.019 --> 00:09:11.136 were trying to get out of being in, in the College of Fine Arts, there 00:09:11.169 --> 00:09:18.207 were a number of other units and they were um, 00:09:18.240 --> 00:09:21.396 Justice Studies. 00:09:21.429 --> 00:09:26.817 I'm getting to the point here, Justice Studies, Journalism, rec management 00:09:26.850 --> 00:09:32.506 and tourism, public affairs and later social work. And they were all 00:09:32.539 --> 00:09:38.106 unhappy where they were. And so page mo Holland, who was then the provost 00:09:38.139 --> 00:09:43.177 said, okay, let's take all these unhappy departments and put them all into 00:09:43.210 --> 00:09:48.506 one place and call it the college of Public programs. 00:09:48.539 --> 00:09:56.016 So now we had to make a college out of disparate units and frank Saxton 00:09:56.049 --> 00:09:59.187 was the first 00:09:59.220 --> 00:10:06.876 dean and then nick Henry became the dean and then an Schneider and they 00:10:06.909 --> 00:10:10.407 were able to make it all work. 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:15.667 Now they're all in different places and the Hugh downs School of human 00:10:15.700 --> 00:10:23.126 communication, which is where you and I were, uh, is now in the college of 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:27.947 liberal arts and Sciences. So let's go back to that reorganization because 00:10:27.980 --> 00:10:33.687 that's reorganizing as a big part of a issues history. Um there you were 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:38.476 in the College of Fine arts. What was it? Was there a lot of tension 00:10:38.509 --> 00:10:42.386 during that reorganization? Did faculty have a strong voice during the 00:10:42.419 --> 00:10:50.419 reorganization or was it top down decision 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:59.039 finding a way to get justice, studies and public affairs and and tourism 00:11:00.580 --> 00:11:06.337 and social work and all of that. I think we just began to like each other 00:11:06.370 --> 00:11:10.886 as people, but I'm not sure that it ever really jelled so that now when 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:16.126 they're in separate places, I think everybody else is happier with what 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:22.386 they are. But what happened when communication came out of fine arts and 00:11:22.419 --> 00:11:27.707 into public programs, there was a lot of tension within the department 00:11:27.740 --> 00:11:33.657 with those of us who are interested in humanities and that would be oral 00:11:33.690 --> 00:11:39.187 interview, which is now called performance studies 00:11:39.220 --> 00:11:44.636 and rhetoric and rhetoric were together and there was, there was an 00:11:44.669 --> 00:11:50.407 opposition with those who were social scientists. So there's a lot of 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:57.346 tension that was going on between those two now because I keep myself 00:11:57.379 --> 00:12:02.896 pretty active with the with the college or with the department of Hugh 00:12:02.929 --> 00:12:09.197 downs school. There's a lot, a lot of integration now and they don't, they 00:12:09.230 --> 00:12:14.907 don't have that anymore. It's wonderful to see what's happening is that 00:12:14.940 --> 00:12:21.996 people in oral and performance studies now take research that's done by 00:12:22.029 --> 00:12:24.587 the social scientists 00:12:24.620 --> 00:12:29.587 and perform it. So instead of having five people read your article, they 00:12:29.620 --> 00:12:37.620 have Maybe 100 people or with videos maybe 1000 people seeing on stage 00:12:39.139 --> 00:12:43.577 manifestations of what the research is. I think that's an exciting thing 00:12:43.610 --> 00:12:51.610 that's happened with ASU No. 00:12:54.639 --> 00:13:00.106 My mother in fact was an elocution teacher and I used to lie on the floor 00:13:00.139 --> 00:13:04.197 and peek under the door where she was teaching. And I actually got some 00:13:04.230 --> 00:13:08.846 good ideas that I used later in my life from from my mother. And some of 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:13.197 the exercises she had the students go through and some of her students 00:13:13.230 --> 00:13:19.606 then became politicians and and lawyers and she would keep track of them. 00:13:19.639 --> 00:13:25.467 So I got some of the elocution teaching from that then to be able to use 00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:27.697 literature 00:13:27.730 --> 00:13:35.467 in a larger sense to to to make a difference in people's lives to to take 00:13:35.500 --> 00:13:42.037 to take literature out into the community. And that's that that actually 00:13:42.070 --> 00:13:49.226 led me here to your first year at A. S. U. What year was that? I came here 00:13:49.259 --> 00:13:53.016 in 1976, 00:13:53.049 --> 00:13:58.376 The bicentennial. Yes. And you did you teach communication to 41 00:13:58.409 --> 00:14:03.236 introduction to oral interpretation your first year? I did. And what were 00:14:03.269 --> 00:14:07.207 the students like? 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.856 Well I like teaching and I think it's really fun. You've taught at that 00:14:10.889 --> 00:14:16.876 same class. Take them from scared to death. I couldn't have never been in 00:14:16.909 --> 00:14:22.287 front of a group. Didn't have any idea what to do. Give them a piece of 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.996 literature something that's important for them. They talk about it and you 00:14:27.029 --> 00:14:31.606 watch them through the semester growing 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:39.639 and that that ability to spread the water on the little plants and watch 00:14:40.129 --> 00:14:45.177 them grow and then to pick them up when they're sophomores, juniors, 00:14:45.210 --> 00:14:50.506 seniors graduate students. And and watch again watch that kind of 00:14:50.539 --> 00:14:53.506 blossoming 00:14:53.539 --> 00:14:57.707 and you attracted a lot of master's degree students. 00:14:57.740 --> 00:15:02.356 Yeah. What were some of the highlights of the master's degree students? 00:15:02.389 --> 00:15:09.837 One of my students is now Heidi Rose is now at Villanova and she did 00:15:09.870 --> 00:15:16.937 storytelling with sign language, sign language storytellers. So she had to 00:15:16.970 --> 00:15:22.707 learn sign language fluent in sign language in order to be able to do that. 00:15:22.740 --> 00:15:26.817 People said to me, well you like to use your hands a lot, so you're going 00:15:26.850 --> 00:15:32.457 to be good at sign language. It's very difficult to learn. I took three 00:15:32.490 --> 00:15:38.177 semesters of it and although I took it as an audit, I took all the tests 00:15:38.210 --> 00:15:40.907 and I got C's 00:15:40.940 --> 00:15:44.486 and I mean I really tried and went into the evenings and I listened to the 00:15:44.519 --> 00:15:52.519 tapes and the only thing I remember now is that means I forget. 00:15:52.740 --> 00:15:58.467 And I, but Heidi went on, she she is fluent in it and she did some 00:15:58.500 --> 00:16:05.167 marvelous stories that she and wrote a diss her dissertation on 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:10.917 storytelling that was and she was your first PhD student. She was my first 00:16:10.950 --> 00:16:16.106 PhD student but go back to the masters I think that was a very interesting 00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:23.157 group of students. You had wasn't chris muldoon and chris muldoon is now 00:16:23.190 --> 00:16:30.006 she has been for a long time a communication instructor, communication 00:16:30.039 --> 00:16:36.087 consultant. In fact, she's in she's in Chicago right now, working with 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:44.120 them, a group of business people. And she was she come to ASU thinking 00:16:46.179 --> 00:16:51.187 that there was a radio 00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:58.756 tv and that that's what she was going to be in. But at that time there was 00:16:58.789 --> 00:17:03.817 no master degree program and she happened to be standing next to one of 00:17:03.850 --> 00:17:08.697 our professors who said, well we have a master's degree program, just one 00:17:08.730 --> 00:17:12.647 floor up. So you go up, she went upstairs and found out that we had a 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:17.296 master's degree program. So she started and she she discovered oral 00:17:17.329 --> 00:17:21.867 interview from me and then she went on to become a communication 00:17:21.900 --> 00:17:29.157 professional. And she did, she still does, she does very well doing that. 00:17:29.190 --> 00:17:34.006 Who else were you thinking of? Oh Cindy man, 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:38.016 Where'd she go? I don't know. There were. When I arrived here there was 00:17:38.049 --> 00:17:43.607 you had a group of about 10 M. A. students and it was a very interesting 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:50.546 dynamic to watch how many masters level students we're committed to 00:17:50.579 --> 00:17:56.056 working with you. Mostly all women. Yeah, mostly all women. And then you 00:17:56.089 --> 00:18:02.607 made it possible. You you had advised the chair to make the chair of the, 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:07.687 of the master's committee and I love doing that 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:12.907 with the masters students. We have a master's program now, but it's all on 00:18:12.940 --> 00:18:14.996 video 00:18:15.029 --> 00:18:21.256 all online. Yeah, I'm not doing it in person anymore. Well it's a, it's a 00:18:21.289 --> 00:18:26.996 pass through degree program primarily. You get people enter the graduate 00:18:27.029 --> 00:18:32.586 program and get their master's in passing. Yeah. These masters are not 00:18:32.619 --> 00:18:40.506 going on two phds like we did. That's what jess Albert says. 00:18:40.539 --> 00:18:45.806 Favorite part of Vegas. You, Yeah. Favorite years. 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:51.086 They're all good. I my favorites are the students. I just, I loved walking 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:57.407 into Stauffer 3 18, which is there. There was a large room, it had a stage 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:01.726 and we could configure the chairs. Anyway, we wanted to and we just made 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:06.907 so much magic in that room. Just I was just there the other day with 00:19:06.940 --> 00:19:11.877 jennifer lindy now teaches oral and turbo and I went back into the 00:19:11.910 --> 00:19:16.476 classroom with her and all the magic is still there because you made it 00:19:16.509 --> 00:19:20.957 happen too. I saw you perform there and Mitchell school, what was Mitchell 00:19:20.990 --> 00:19:28.990 school? We needed a space where people could park. We, we used to have a 00:19:29.309 --> 00:19:36.107 show in 318. It's on the third floor of Stauffer Hall and there's no place 00:19:36.140 --> 00:19:40.177 where people can come from outside and park and then we had to prop the 00:19:40.210 --> 00:19:44.167 door open at the bottom, which we weren't supposed to do and get people to 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:47.207 come up to the third floor. 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:54.427 And so we needed a space and there was a Mitchell school was being stopped 00:19:54.460 --> 00:19:59.937 being a school and there was a kindergarten room. And so you helped make 00:19:59.970 --> 00:20:04.226 this into a theater because you helped get the curtains go around three 00:20:04.259 --> 00:20:09.377 sides and then we had to do something about the bathroom because it was a 00:20:09.410 --> 00:20:17.410 kindergarten room. Mhm. And there were toilets for very small people. 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:25.897 And so we had we had to do something about that and then the roof leaked 00:20:25.930 --> 00:20:30.986 and we had we had a light boots up in the back light booth so we could 00:20:31.019 --> 00:20:37.766 light the performers but it dripped in the rain. And so we light booth has 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:42.907 electricity and has problems with electricity. Right so there is a white 00:20:42.940 --> 00:20:47.927 person holding an umbrella up there and working the light switches for for 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:50.407 the show. 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:57.217 Now though we have a really nice we called empty space empty space is 00:20:57.250 --> 00:21:03.536 peter peter peter brook peter Brookes comment he says I can take any empty 00:21:03.569 --> 00:21:07.506 space and make it a theater and you can I can make it and make it a 00:21:07.539 --> 00:21:12.407 theater right here And so 00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:18.217 there there was an area of the cornerstone. You think it used to be a 00:21:18.250 --> 00:21:23.836 theater, a movie movie theater and it was cleared out now. Dance uses it, 00:21:23.869 --> 00:21:28.097 theater uses it and one of the rooms is the empty space and it's pretty 00:21:28.130 --> 00:21:33.336 classic compared to what we had to work in holding an umbrella when it was 00:21:33.369 --> 00:21:38.617 rain or using the toilets that are made for little kids. You're talking 00:21:38.650 --> 00:21:43.637 about. Center point in downtown Tempe no cornerstone at the corner of 00:21:43.670 --> 00:21:49.506 university, no university and rural. Yeah, university and rural. Yeah, 00:21:49.539 --> 00:21:57.539 back in the corner there. It's not yeah, it's now an A. S. U. Building. 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:10.207 One of the questions that are asked here that I really want to talk about 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:15.766 is that some of the special events that I did and you were part of some of 00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:22.286 that to fred I was a project director for a National Endowment for the 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:30.319 Humanities Grant in which we performed contemporary western literature and 00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:37.566 nine of the libraries in Phoenix. And this was what we called trigger 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:44.207 scripting. Jan Elsie. And I developed a concept called trigger scripting 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:50.207 where we present a piece of literature 00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:55.367 and then have a series of questions about the literature, questions that 00:22:55.400 --> 00:23:00.586 are generated from the literature to get the audience involved in it. So 00:23:00.619 --> 00:23:06.347 they're not just passive listeners to a performance. But the reason the 00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:14.380 humanities, National Humanities people approved of it were that it brought 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:20.316 in an audience with the humanities, which is literature, definitely 00:23:20.349 --> 00:23:27.897 literature. It so happened that one of my students when I taught at Utah 00:23:27.930 --> 00:23:31.207 State University 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:35.306 in between Masters and PhD, 00:23:35.339 --> 00:23:42.397 I was in a play or a show that I directed. It was as I lay dying by Hello 00:23:42.430 --> 00:23:47.417 Faulkner. He went on then to work for the National Endowment for the 00:23:47.450 --> 00:23:55.450 Humanities so that when I wrote this grant, he knew what oral and turf was 00:23:56.839 --> 00:23:59.637 because they kept saying that the committee kept saying, well we don't do 00:23:59.670 --> 00:24:04.687 theater, we don't do theater. He said it's not theater oral interview 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:12.720 involves an audience and guess people thinking and talking about ideas. So 00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:17.976 we had this surprise person in just the right place at just the right 00:24:18.009 --> 00:24:25.877 moment. And at the time we got this grant in In 1984, it was the largest 00:24:25.910 --> 00:24:30.407 humanities grant that a s you've ever gotten since then. Lots of other 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:36.816 people got more of them, but in today's dollars, that was was it 350? Uh 00:24:36.849 --> 00:24:44.357 202 102 150. Yeah. You remember that? Sure. Of course it was wonderful. Um 00:24:44.390 --> 00:24:48.137 and it was all, it was also introducing people in the valley to literature 00:24:48.170 --> 00:24:53.687 from western writers. So all the authors were southwestern west of the 00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:59.667 rockies, west of the rockies, West of the rockies. Yeah. And from that one 00:24:59.700 --> 00:25:05.806 of them was Milagro Beanfield War by 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:09.806 Mhm. Help me out. 00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:16.536 The writer of he lives, he lives in Albuquerque Shoot, I've forgotten his 00:25:16.569 --> 00:25:21.256 name but we the Milagro Beanfield War had to do with issues which are 00:25:21.289 --> 00:25:27.437 still going on right now, which is like in south phoenix, rich people come 00:25:27.470 --> 00:25:31.207 in and buy land that 00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:38.836 less wealthy people, particularly Hispanics lived in south phoenix in 00:25:38.869 --> 00:25:45.717 small modest houses and rich people, so bought that and they're bought 00:25:45.750 --> 00:25:50.276 next door and wanted to build a golf course or build a big apartment 00:25:50.309 --> 00:25:58.309 complex or build fancy houses which took their Mhm there property tax up 00:25:58.730 --> 00:26:03.586 so high they couldn't afford it anymore. And this is really what Tony 00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:08.097 Hillerman was talking about happening in New Mexico. So the issue I could 00:26:08.130 --> 00:26:14.086 do Milagro Beanfield war right now with an audience and have a connection 00:26:14.119 --> 00:26:20.006 and that's what excites me is doing that kind of thing. 00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:28.039 Then I loved directing Bay Wolf in Danforth Chapel. Do you remember that? 00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:37.707 I had, I took Danforth Chapel and I put banners up on the side and turned 00:26:37.740 --> 00:26:44.566 it into a mead hall and our daughter was a surf who served at the 00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:50.496 intermission served mead which was nonalcoholic mead. But we called it 00:26:50.529 --> 00:26:58.529 need and my husband jean valentine was the narrator and he knows old 00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:04.107 english. So here's a story about that. 00:27:04.140 --> 00:27:08.506 We invited Russ nelson who was not Russ nelson was the president at the 00:27:08.539 --> 00:27:14.427 time and we invited him to come and as a director, I stood in the back and 00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:22.460 he was in the the last row and jean starts off in old english the way bail 00:27:23.660 --> 00:27:29.996 wolf was written and I heard Russ lean over and say, do you think the 00:27:30.029 --> 00:27:38.029 whole show is gonna be in old english at that point? Then Gene turns the 00:27:38.390 --> 00:27:42.427 page and it goes into english and everybody speaking english and I saw 00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:49.407 Russ nelson and his wife relaxed in the back row. So that was a lot of fun 00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:56.986 to do that and turn a space into something that you wouldn't expect to go 00:27:57.019 --> 00:27:59.496 into 00:27:59.529 --> 00:28:07.529 and then I did a show and uh linda vance coy. You may remember this. It 00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:16.839 was called highly classified narrator narratives of a sus classified staff. 00:28:17.240 --> 00:28:21.857 So highly classified me. And it makes it sound like it's secret. But what 00:28:21.890 --> 00:28:29.637 I did, I had a class where I taught the students how to interview people 00:28:29.670 --> 00:28:33.976 and I asked them to choose some staff member that made a big difference in 00:28:34.009 --> 00:28:36.697 their lives 00:28:36.730 --> 00:28:41.516 and interview them about their lives if they're willing to have you script 00:28:41.549 --> 00:28:46.707 their life story and put it on stage. 00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:52.117 So they each went out and almost every student has had some staff member 00:28:52.150 --> 00:28:57.877 who's made a difference to them, sometimes an advisor, sometimes in 00:28:57.910 --> 00:29:04.177 theater it was one of the guys who who made things happen in the theater 00:29:04.210 --> 00:29:12.210 department behind behind the stage and his motto was your emergency is not 00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:21.480 my job. So the students learn not to present emergencies to him. And it 00:29:21.799 --> 00:29:28.226 was just a very um he talked about the time the Pope was here and they had 00:29:28.259 --> 00:29:35.407 to arrange for the Pope to come and speak in the Sun Devil Stadium and 00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:40.836 what that was like trying to get the Pope mobile into the, into the 00:29:40.869 --> 00:29:46.546 stadium. And that was one of the stories that was told. So we did this in 00:29:46.579 --> 00:29:52.927 the emu and invited all of the staff members whose stories were told and 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:59.217 then of course all their friends. So we we had everybody in the, I was I 00:29:59.250 --> 00:30:04.947 was really proud of of what the students could do and how we wanted to 00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:11.566 bring the staff closer to the students in a, in a personal way. And that's 00:30:11.599 --> 00:30:17.907 another thing that oral and Turpin storytelling can do. 00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:23.996 So when did the black interpreters theater get it started? And were you, 00:30:24.029 --> 00:30:31.306 I'd forgotten about that. That's a good one. Yeah. I had, I had worked 00:30:31.339 --> 00:30:38.566 with issues of black rhetoric as um PhD my PhD work. Then I went to 00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:41.387 Kentucky 00:30:41.420 --> 00:30:47.677 Kentucky in the early 70s, 00:30:47.710 --> 00:30:55.710 had issues of racism which I had never had to face before. 00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:04.440 And so I had almost no the the african american students all went to a 00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:09.387 african american small college. There were very few of them at the 00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:15.207 University of Kentucky at the time. And 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:23.240 Adolph Rupp was the athletic director and he didn't want any black players. 00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:30.836 This was in the early 70's and I was radicalized at the time and it was 00:31:30.869 --> 00:31:37.177 one of the reasons I, I want to live in the west, but I I wanted out of 00:31:37.210 --> 00:31:39.607 that environment. 00:31:39.640 --> 00:31:45.607 So when I came here and there were african american students and I like 00:31:45.640 --> 00:31:51.127 literature that comes from african american voices, but I'm a white person 00:31:51.160 --> 00:31:59.160 and I don't, I don't want to tell them what to do. So I started um getting 00:31:59.769 --> 00:32:05.107 some african american students in my classes And I had some talented ones 00:32:05.140 --> 00:32:10.387 and I would kind of pick two or three of them as directors and so I would 00:32:10.420 --> 00:32:18.046 supervise but sort of hands off and let them do it. So they they did a 00:32:18.079 --> 00:32:25.137 show called from wraps Odes to wrap the raps. Odes were as as you know the 00:32:25.170 --> 00:32:28.207 episodes were the Storytellers 00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:32.467 for the Iliad and the odyssey. The greek storytellers were called wraps 00:32:32.500 --> 00:32:36.937 Odes. So you take the first part of wraps odes and it moves to wrap and 00:32:36.970 --> 00:32:43.066 they were doing rap at the time and then we toured with that around the 00:32:43.099 --> 00:32:48.786 communities and other people got to see what they were doing. And then 00:32:48.819 --> 00:32:55.937 because two or 3 of the advisors found out about it, they made a lot had a 00:32:55.970 --> 00:33:01.806 lot more african american students take classes in an oral in terms 00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:06.407 because once you start a little movement like that then then it starts to 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:14.107 go, yeah that was good. It was a thriving troop for what it was. 00:33:14.140 --> 00:33:22.140 Yeah. Yeah, that's good. 00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:30.657 And when when you arrived there were gender issues in the department. 00:33:30.690 --> 00:33:38.690 Right? Yes. I think I was one of 2 people in the department women and we I 00:33:43.450 --> 00:33:47.647 immediately looked around to see where other women were. I'm a feminist 00:33:47.680 --> 00:33:55.680 and I work and issues of women. So I found the very beginning of women's 00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:03.397 studies with Phil motion. It was the first she was hired halftime for 00:34:03.430 --> 00:34:10.177 women's studies and halftime in english and it was exciting because we we 00:34:10.210 --> 00:34:13.106 then became adjunct 00:34:13.139 --> 00:34:17.467 women studies people from all these different departments. And suddenly 00:34:17.500 --> 00:34:21.896 there was a whole community of people and at that point I began to feel at 00:34:21.929 --> 00:34:28.967 home at A S. U. By going out and seeing the kinds of interests in the 00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:36.517 kinds of research that women were doing. And then and then came along mary 00:34:36.550 --> 00:34:42.177 rothschild who's I think she's also been interviewed here And she she was 00:34:42.210 --> 00:34:46.796 chair when she was 30 And she was chair when she was 40, she was chair 00:34:46.829 --> 00:34:49.967 again when she was 15. And she said, I'll be damned if I'll do it when I'm 00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:57.387 60. So it moved on to other people to become a much more integrated and 00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:03.166 and have its own unit. But at first we were that we were at one person as 00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:07.956 chair and then all of us who were adjunct in the other departments and 00:35:07.989 --> 00:35:11.986 that was exciting. It was an exciting time to be here. And it was time 00:35:12.019 --> 00:35:16.046 that called for great strength in the home front too. Right. And in the 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:21.506 Department of Communication it did that. And then we began to hire more 00:35:21.539 --> 00:35:26.217 women in the department and and now there's lots of women. It's not an 00:35:26.250 --> 00:35:30.307 issue anymore. It's just good to see that something that you've worked on 00:35:30.340 --> 00:35:34.287 becomes a non issue. It isn't something you have to worry about now, mm 00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:38.407 hmm. I like that part. 00:35:38.440 --> 00:35:42.066 Did you notice changes of that sort happening throughout a issue with 00:35:42.099 --> 00:35:46.517 their cultural changes in terms of women's rights. 00:35:46.550 --> 00:35:51.206 I saw I saw a compartmentalizing 00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:59.239 when we from when we first got here and then with the faculty are the 00:35:59.349 --> 00:36:04.467 Women's Studies and the Faculty Women's Association. I was president of 00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:11.336 the Faculty Women's Association for For a year two years. And those kinds 00:36:11.369 --> 00:36:16.387 of pushes along with society's pushes meant that there were a lot more 00:36:16.420 --> 00:36:24.420 women in all kinds of areas. That was a good thing to have happened. Yeah. 00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:30.280 Um 00:36:30.530 --> 00:36:37.497 something something I thought about when these questions came up was that 00:36:37.530 --> 00:36:45.006 I I got my bachelor's degree when I was 20, my 20s, My master's in my 30s 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:51.506 , My PhD in my 40s. So I think a lot of people I think well can you get a 00:36:51.539 --> 00:36:57.336 PhD later in life And and I did that and I got to be a full professor at 00:36:57.369 --> 00:37:05.369 50 that was I was proud of that. and then at 60 I got a teaching award 00:37:05.909 --> 00:37:13.909 from A. S. U. And then at 70 I got a national teaching awards, 00:37:15.019 --> 00:37:22.276 Wallace Bacon. And it was even more meaningful because Wallace Bacon 00:37:22.309 --> 00:37:29.017 really started oral interpretation at Northwestern. So he his name just 00:37:29.050 --> 00:37:33.646 goes down through all the people who have ever taught oral inter poor 00:37:33.679 --> 00:37:38.497 performance studies. I got that. 00:37:38.530 --> 00:37:43.506 And then when I stopped teaching at A. S. U. I started teaching at 00:37:43.539 --> 00:37:48.916 victoria University and Wellington New Zealand I taught in a women's 00:37:48.949 --> 00:37:52.986 studies programs. I was back home again in Women's Studies but I was 00:37:53.019 --> 00:37:59.106 teaching ethnography is teaching women's storytelling to students in in 00:37:59.139 --> 00:38:01.477 Wellington. 00:38:01.510 --> 00:38:09.336 And so I did that for 10 years and then for five years after that I have 00:38:09.369 --> 00:38:17.369 worked with Peg Bortner. Some of you may know her Peg Bortner started the 00:38:17.719 --> 00:38:25.719 the college program at the federal prison camp up in north phoenix. And so 00:38:26.769 --> 00:38:31.836 I taught, I taught communication and creative writing. I actually taught 00:38:31.869 --> 00:38:36.017 oral and terp to them and I was trying to get them to get some 00:38:36.050 --> 00:38:41.526 communication skills by using their own poetry and their own writing and 00:38:41.559 --> 00:38:47.296 they there are a lot of them are really good writers was fun teaching, 00:38:47.329 --> 00:38:53.387 teaching them Now I don't drive 100 mile round trip anymore. But I do help 00:38:53.420 --> 00:38:59.486 peg Bortner downtown by whatever paperwork it needs to be done to keep 00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:05.066 that program going. And I'm hoping that somebody this peg is now retired. 00:39:05.099 --> 00:39:10.307 I'm hoping that somebody will be interested in taking over the prison 00:39:10.340 --> 00:39:17.387 program because one of my passions is education for incarcerated people 00:39:17.420 --> 00:39:24.617 and incarcerated women in particular. Yeah. one of the questions was about 00:39:24.650 --> 00:39:27.387 the change 00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:30.557 in a issue that I saw 00:39:30.590 --> 00:39:38.137 you do that. Sure. So when you arrived, what was a issue west like there 00:39:38.170 --> 00:39:46.170 wasn't one had Del Felder helped start a S. U. West and she said it was 00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:51.617 like trying to build an airplane while you're flying it. So they had a few 00:39:51.650 --> 00:39:56.727 classes I taught over there for extra money and there was no no 00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:02.927 polytechnic, no East. No downtown was almost nothing. So the way I 00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:08.206 characterize it it was it was pretty predictable. There are silos and 00:40:08.239 --> 00:40:11.847 that's the word that has been used as this is my area and this is what I 00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:19.880 do. And there's not much that's going on around working with other groups. 00:40:20.989 --> 00:40:22.989 And then when Croak came it was like chaos because he took all the cards 00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:34.206 and threw him up in the air and everything was different. So for a little 00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:40.497 while there was chaotic. And now I think it's exciting 00:40:40.530 --> 00:40:43.967 the kind of 00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:50.256 interdisciplinary work that's being done right now where units are brought 00:40:50.289 --> 00:40:55.197 together kind of like our College of public programs bringing together six 00:40:55.230 --> 00:40:59.177 units that didn't never worked together before. And somehow they figured 00:40:59.210 --> 00:41:03.546 out a way to do that. I I like that kind of creativity. So you were 00:41:03.579 --> 00:41:07.977 involved in faculty governance. You were president of the faculty senate. 00:41:08.010 --> 00:41:13.376 I was I was the first actual president before that they were called chair 00:41:13.409 --> 00:41:19.287 of the faculty Senate. And then I actually I actually have a I should have 00:41:19.320 --> 00:41:27.320 brought it. I have gavel gavel that I said first president of the A. S. U. 00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:31.497 Faculty now I think it's a different name. What is it now? No it's 00:41:31.530 --> 00:41:37.077 president of the but it's not faculty Academic Senate. Academic Senate. 00:41:37.110 --> 00:41:41.677 Yeah. Yeah same thing. All right so what were some of the issues that were 00:41:41.710 --> 00:41:46.077 came up while you were president 00:41:46.110 --> 00:41:52.177 one of the issues was the cross on top of danforth chapel 00:41:52.210 --> 00:41:57.916 and some issues about whether the chapel should be for all kinds of people. 00:41:57.949 --> 00:42:03.066 All religions or only christians. 00:42:03.099 --> 00:42:09.697 And the cross had originally when danford, as I understand danford chapel 00:42:09.730 --> 00:42:15.017 did not originally have a cross on top and one of the earlier presidents 00:42:15.050 --> 00:42:23.050 of A. S. U. Put the cross up. And then we had a debate about it 00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:32.427 and what during the debate there was a huge storm And I walked to campus 00:42:32.460 --> 00:42:36.066 one day and the cross was gone. 00:42:36.099 --> 00:42:43.537 I think God took the cross down. He says what happened here? It was 00:42:43.570 --> 00:42:48.517 apparently a big wind that came up but then Russ nelson put it back up and 00:42:48.550 --> 00:42:52.677 braced it up there so it wouldn't fall down again. So now we were back 00:42:52.710 --> 00:42:55.947 arguing about it because I thought I had already been taken care of by the 00:42:55.980 --> 00:43:01.677 forces of nature. But but we did have to argue about it. And one of the 00:43:01.710 --> 00:43:09.666 counter arguments was that the entrance to the library is a shinto shrine 00:43:09.699 --> 00:43:16.557 design and so should that be taken out to. So they argued about that and 00:43:16.590 --> 00:43:20.566 then they argued about the fact that it's called a chapel and the word 00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:25.626 chapel is associated with christians and it's still there. The cross is 00:43:25.659 --> 00:43:33.659 gone. We did the faculty senate did decide that the at the cross should 00:43:34.460 --> 00:43:39.606 come down so that it can be used as a meditation center for everybody and 00:43:39.639 --> 00:43:44.267 not just for um christians, 00:43:44.300 --> 00:43:49.177 but the word chapel is still there and I don't know if other religions use 00:43:49.210 --> 00:43:55.566 it or not. But that was a an emotional moment. 00:43:55.599 --> 00:43:58.867 The faculty senate, 00:43:58.900 --> 00:44:03.577 it lead, it lead to lots of other things. It was for the first time. The 00:44:03.610 --> 00:44:08.477 faculty representative could sit with the dean's, could sit with the vice 00:44:08.510 --> 00:44:14.787 presidents and one of the other issues at the time that I was president 00:44:14.820 --> 00:44:22.686 was the building of or the making the making the university club, making 00:44:22.719 --> 00:44:27.927 it a club. And it wasn't before that. So during the time that I was 00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:32.427 president, there was some argument about about that and I'd heard that the 00:44:32.460 --> 00:44:38.026 story about how come we even had one in the first place was that they were 00:44:38.059 --> 00:44:44.706 interviewing somebody for academic for athletic director and the athletic 00:44:44.739 --> 00:44:49.376 director said, well why don't we talk about this issue of whatever it was 00:44:49.409 --> 00:44:53.276 over at your university club. 00:44:53.309 --> 00:44:59.456 Silence around the table. We don't have a university club at which point 00:44:59.489 --> 00:45:07.489 Russ, nelson and Brent Brown who was important, He was a professor in the 00:45:08.179 --> 00:45:12.017 school of public affairs, but he was also something with the president in 00:45:12.050 --> 00:45:15.807 the president's office. The president's office, they said, well we've got 00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:19.467 this building over here, we could, we could take this building and make 00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:24.316 the university club out of it. And it was a pretty rundown art studio. Is 00:45:24.349 --> 00:45:29.697 that what it was? I didn't know that. So they decided to put all that 00:45:29.730 --> 00:45:33.867 together. And then there was a talk about whether there should be a bar or 00:45:33.900 --> 00:45:38.577 not. So I remember sitting there with all the vice presidents and the and 00:45:38.610 --> 00:45:41.416 the deans and they were all arguing about whether or not they should have 00:45:41.449 --> 00:45:45.617 a bar and some of the people were saying oh we don't want professors 00:45:45.650 --> 00:45:53.650 staggering across the campus after drinking it at the university club. And 00:45:54.099 --> 00:45:59.756 the two people who held out for having it were Russ nelson who was a 00:45:59.789 --> 00:46:07.789 teetotaler and Brent Bond Brent Brown who was a yes. So the two people who 00:46:08.469 --> 00:46:14.887 never ever drank liquor at all said we should have a university club and 00:46:14.920 --> 00:46:18.756 we sort of guarantee that we're not going to have professors stumbling 00:46:18.789 --> 00:46:26.296 over to the their lectures and it worked out just fine now it's running 00:46:26.329 --> 00:46:30.256 well that was a good story. 00:46:30.289 --> 00:46:33.447 The year that I was president 00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:38.146 of the faculty, 00:46:38.179 --> 00:46:42.387 Tony Hillerman was getting an honorary degree, so I got to meet him which 00:46:42.420 --> 00:46:50.420 is a treat. And at at one of the pre sessions before he came on stage or 00:46:51.380 --> 00:46:59.146 came to speak the anthropology department, presented him with the masters 00:46:59.179 --> 00:47:06.126 thesis. Now to back up for those of you who read Tony Hillerman's stories 00:47:06.159 --> 00:47:13.416 about Navajo life and living in the in New Mexico right on the border with 00:47:13.449 --> 00:47:20.077 Arizona. His main character was called joe lee porn. And in the books 00:47:20.110 --> 00:47:27.026 Jolie porn, had a master's degree in anthropology from A S. U. And he 00:47:27.059 --> 00:47:30.856 would carry this through all the novels that always mentioned A S. You 00:47:30.889 --> 00:47:34.586 mentioned anthropology and and and of course Jolie porn was a major 00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:40.247 character. So what the anthropology department was did was to come up with 00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:44.347 a master's degree 00:47:44.380 --> 00:47:51.467 cases with Jolie porn and the title of his master's thesis in anthropology 00:47:51.500 --> 00:47:57.686 and present this to tuna hillerman, which is very he loved it. He just I 00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:01.836 thought that was great. 00:48:01.869 --> 00:48:06.517 Well you were also hired at the time when the issue was decided to become 00:48:06.550 --> 00:48:11.206 a major research institution. Right? So that was a transition for the 00:48:11.239 --> 00:48:19.239 institution. Um So there's lots of emphasis on on research. I did my 00:48:19.789 --> 00:48:27.789 research in Spain and in Galicia it's a portion of Spain that's in 00:48:28.030 --> 00:48:32.606 Northwest Galicia. And you mentioned chris muldoon, she just got back from 00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:37.827 walking part of the camino and she just as last month was in santiago de 00:48:37.860 --> 00:48:43.166 compostela, which is the town that we lived in. And I interviewed women's 00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:48.006 storytellers in Northwest Spain. I've always been interested in 00:48:48.039 --> 00:48:54.436 storytelling and particularly interested in women's take on it 00:48:54.469 --> 00:48:59.727 And the women, I I thought I was going to hear stories of ST James which 00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:05.267 is he's the patron saint of Spain. And the women all said if you want to 00:49:05.300 --> 00:49:10.506 hear about ST James, you talked to my, I preached my brother my father or 00:49:10.539 --> 00:49:15.197 my uncle or my brother, I said what do you want to talk about? We don't 00:49:15.230 --> 00:49:21.447 want to talk about ST James, this is my short version of it. They want to 00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:29.287 talk about going to row Maria, which is of celebration of whatever event 00:49:29.320 --> 00:49:33.887 happened in a particular place. So for example, there's a town called 00:49:33.920 --> 00:49:41.356 Machida where there are stones that are in the shape of a boat, an 00:49:41.389 --> 00:49:47.227 overturned boat. So there's the hull of the boat looks like with stone and 00:49:47.260 --> 00:49:50.986 there's something that looks like a mast and something that looks like a 00:49:51.019 --> 00:49:56.247 sail. And so the story that's told about that are the stories that the 00:49:56.280 --> 00:50:04.280 women told me. The Virgin mary came two Kallithea when ST James was there 00:50:05.289 --> 00:50:10.827 and he was getting all discouraged because he wasn't getting any converts. 00:50:10.860 --> 00:50:15.077 He would take the scallop shell, that's a symbol of ST James and he would 00:50:15.110 --> 00:50:21.066 use it to baptize, but he only made five converts and he'd been there for 00:50:21.099 --> 00:50:27.597 years and years. So the virgin mary appears to him on a pillar and says 00:50:27.630 --> 00:50:32.626 not to worry, this is valentine's version, not the way it was told to me 00:50:32.659 --> 00:50:38.787 go home to Palestine and Israel and I'm sorry, but you're going to have 00:50:38.820 --> 00:50:44.227 your head cut off, but you'll be martyred and there will be christians. So 00:50:44.260 --> 00:50:49.827 not to worry, says the Virgin mary. Well all the stories that were told to 00:50:49.860 --> 00:50:57.086 me about this place, I was able to put the stories into their words and 00:50:57.119 --> 00:51:02.077 not just my words. So, if you want to read about it, I have an article I'd 00:51:02.110 --> 00:51:10.110 be happy to share. 00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:19.267 Well, let's talk about students. So the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, what 00:51:19.300 --> 00:51:23.526 changes did you see in the student population over those years? Were they 00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:29.606 rebels in the 70s at all? Or were they, were they involved in? It would 00:51:29.639 --> 00:51:37.639 have been post peace movement? Yeah. I got into using literature as a a 00:51:38.570 --> 00:51:46.570 force for talking during the Vietnam war. And independently Jan Elsie here 00:51:47.010 --> 00:51:52.836 at A S. U. And I and I at the University of Kentucky were we didn't know 00:51:52.869 --> 00:51:59.166 each other, but we both said here we are doing literature like Shelley's 00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:05.697 Skylark or or pizzas when I have fears that I may cease to be lovely poems. 00:52:05.730 --> 00:52:09.517 But what difference is that going to make in the world? And she and I 00:52:09.550 --> 00:52:14.327 sort of independently said, we need to we need to use our skill to help 00:52:14.360 --> 00:52:20.166 students speak what they want to speak. And we began to bring more 00:52:20.199 --> 00:52:26.477 personal narrative in and that I think took over a lot of what was going 00:52:26.510 --> 00:52:28.896 on with. 00:52:28.929 --> 00:52:34.287 Right, well, you created a course called Performance for social Change. 00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:42.320 I did. And that that that john l c actually started that I picked up on it 00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:48.427 from her. So, as soon as I got here, I had a a kindred spirit in wanting 00:52:48.460 --> 00:52:53.686 to use literature out in in the community. So you would have the classroom 00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:59.126 , but didn't the students actually go out into the community and perform 00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:05.066 in social contexts? Yes. Yes. Yes. So we worked with the blind, we worked 00:53:05.099 --> 00:53:11.177 with the population of blind people and uh the attitude, she went out to 00:53:11.210 --> 00:53:16.436 the attitudes and we went to the attitudes frequently. I at the time there 00:53:16.469 --> 00:53:23.677 was a women's prison at the corner of 32nd Street and Van Buren, it was an 00:53:23.710 --> 00:53:31.710 old motel and had been turned into a minimum minimum medium security 00:53:32.190 --> 00:53:39.217 prison. And I was able to get students in there and had them teach 00:53:39.250 --> 00:53:43.727 the same thing that I've been teaching, which is communication and 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:51.760 creative writing to let them see what creative thinking can be even if 00:53:52.070 --> 00:53:57.867 they're incarcerated. And in fact one of the people that I did that with 00:53:57.900 --> 00:54:04.856 is Cheryl, now, Jackie and Cheryl and her husband helped fund the 00:54:04.889 --> 00:54:08.407 christian Berwick valentine 00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:13.907 undergraduate scholarship in in communication 00:54:13.940 --> 00:54:20.376 and she she was an excellent teacher to incarcerated people. She now runs 00:54:20.409 --> 00:54:28.409 a business that a third of the of the profits goes into um causes like a. 00:54:32.539 --> 00:54:40.539 C. L. U. Buildings for for people who are homeless or lb 00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:49.166 G. D. two people. So I think I think I was able to help nurture some of 00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:52.566 that. You got to care about your environment, you have to care about other 00:54:52.599 --> 00:54:58.916 people and that it was it was easy to do with the population of students 00:54:58.949 --> 00:55:06.206 that we had with an interest in performing and literature, but not theater 00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:11.017 because the the students in theater or sometimes just want to become 00:55:11.050 --> 00:55:19.050 actors. That's why they're there. The students in performance and oral and 00:55:19.079 --> 00:55:23.847 wanted wanted to make a difference in the world. And it was those students 00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:29.396 that we just you do did too. We both just grabbed onto those so much of 00:55:29.429 --> 00:55:34.486 your work. Did bring a s you into the community through the National 00:55:34.519 --> 00:55:40.477 Endowment for the Humanities Grant, your coursework in Social change and 00:55:40.510 --> 00:55:45.287 working in the prisons and working in the prison. What do you see was how 00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:50.307 would you describe the relationship between a S. U. And its communities 00:55:50.340 --> 00:55:58.340 during your time here? I I thought that we professors were not at the time 00:56:00.329 --> 00:56:03.557 rewarded for what we did in the community and that is always what I 00:56:03.590 --> 00:56:10.697 thought I should do. And I I resented that there was so much emphasis on 00:56:10.730 --> 00:56:15.787 my research when the I like doing research, I enjoy doing it, I did a lot 00:56:15.820 --> 00:56:20.747 of it, but I thought the emphasis should be on all three. I mean, there 00:56:20.780 --> 00:56:28.396 were three legs of the stool that nick Henry had and it was it was service 00:56:28.429 --> 00:56:34.296 teaching and research. So it was a voice that all three were important and 00:56:34.329 --> 00:56:39.997 you need all three for a stool. But one of the legs of the stool was not 00:56:40.030 --> 00:56:46.876 particularly strong. But I think now there's a lot more with the new 00:56:46.909 --> 00:56:53.646 president now or not. So new with crow a lot more emphasis on getting the 00:56:53.679 --> 00:57:00.416 community. I like to see that happen now. Maybe I'm wrong. But it seems no 00:57:00.449 --> 00:57:07.177 , I think you're right. It seems more good. My university, my first 00:57:07.210 --> 00:57:11.197 university was University of Wisconsin and they said the universe, the 00:57:11.230 --> 00:57:16.677 borders of the university are the borders of the state. Sorry, I grew up 00:57:16.710 --> 00:57:23.467 with that idea that a university should encompass the whole state. And I 00:57:23.500 --> 00:57:29.506 think the issue is trying to do that now and I I'm proud that I was here 00:57:29.539 --> 00:57:37.539 for such a long time. 27, years. A long time. The last question that was 00:57:37.659 --> 00:57:44.986 asked, I wanted to change. Go ahead. The last question was how do I occupy 00:57:45.019 --> 00:57:53.019 my time? Mm which sounds like not me. So I changed it to how do I 00:57:54.309 --> 00:57:59.847 contribute to my communities since I retired from A S. U. Because I 00:57:59.880 --> 00:58:06.586 believe that's that's what I've chosen for. Make meaning out of my life. 00:58:06.619 --> 00:58:13.586 So what do I do? Uh I taught ethnography at victoria University and I'm 00:58:13.619 --> 00:58:18.787 going back again next year to visit my students and the teachers that I 00:58:18.820 --> 00:58:23.927 worked with at and new Zealand. 00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:29.666 One of my favorite places in all this world is New Zealand. So I did that. 00:58:29.699 --> 00:58:35.537 Then I'm helping with the Rios Lotto program with with Peg Bortner and 00:58:35.570 --> 00:58:43.570 the the federal prison camp for women in north north phoenix. And then I'm 00:58:45.030 --> 00:58:48.387 living at friendship village 00:58:48.420 --> 00:58:53.787 where one of the nice people that are helping make this happened lives. 00:58:53.820 --> 00:59:01.820 And I chair the hiking committee and the pet committee. We have 100 dogs, 00:59:03.550 --> 00:59:10.986 25 cats, four birds and four tortoises. They have to be looked after and 00:59:11.019 --> 00:59:15.856 whatever issues they are comes to the pet committee and then the hiking 00:59:15.889 --> 00:59:23.889 committee, we we hiked twice a month all around phoenix Area, within 60 00:59:24.159 --> 00:59:30.867 miles of Phoenix area from october to March. And then the emeritus college 00:59:30.900 --> 00:59:38.900 , which I think is a wonderful who? Who started that Jacob? Jacob, Dick 00:59:40.010 --> 00:59:45.856 Dick Jacobs started. And then who was the provost that really pushed it? 00:59:45.889 --> 00:59:53.889 I've forgotten his name. Yeah. Yeah. Milk. Milk click. Yes. And I that is 00:59:54.250 --> 01:00:02.250 a for those who watch this or might be emeritus faculty because many of us 01:00:04.369 --> 01:00:08.206 are still writing, we still had an article we hadn't published yet or 01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:14.477 we're still doing something that's interesting. And there's an Emeritus 01:00:14.510 --> 01:00:22.206 College voices journal, which I've published in. And we we have short 01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:28.657 talks, which I think is a very clever idea. Two professors each get a half 01:00:28.690 --> 01:00:33.876 hour and they will talk about whatever they're interested in whatever 01:00:33.909 --> 01:00:41.436 research they're doing. And it keeps us all engaged in each other's work. 01:00:41.469 --> 01:00:46.626 And so I think many universities across the country now have an emeritus 01:00:46.659 --> 01:00:51.887 college and I'm a proponent of that. Nice. And were you part of the 01:00:51.920 --> 01:00:56.876 emeritus college when it went downtown with the exhibits in university 01:00:56.909 --> 01:01:02.546 center. Yes. Well, because my husband is an artist. So his work was down 01:01:02.579 --> 01:01:08.166 there is still up there on the wall. He's a jean valentine, he's a printer 01:01:08.199 --> 01:01:16.199 paper maker. And his work is on the wall of 4 11 on the 5th floor. Yeah. 01:01:16.909 --> 01:01:23.537 And he taught in the english department 01:01:23.570 --> 01:01:29.956 and your daughter went to Asia, daughter went to A S. U. Got a degree in 01:01:29.989 --> 01:01:35.327 tourism and is now the marketing director for the School of Earth and 01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:43.360 Space Exploration at A. S. U. And she's married to Tony Roberto who is a 01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:51.456 professor in my department Communication. And how did they meet? I 01:01:51.489 --> 01:01:58.486 introduced them. Mhm. I was hiking with a group from communication and I 01:01:58.519 --> 01:02:02.566 started a hiking group of the faculty and grad students and I thought they 01:02:02.599 --> 01:02:06.427 ought to grad students, especially those who are not from Arizona I need 01:02:06.460 --> 01:02:11.597 to see things need to get out there. So they I started the hiking group 01:02:11.630 --> 01:02:15.617 with them and they kept doing and I would hike with them. So I was hiking 01:02:15.650 --> 01:02:22.586 with this nice young man and he looked so young that I thought he was a 01:02:22.619 --> 01:02:26.146 grad student. So my usual question is, well now who is your graduate 01:02:26.179 --> 01:02:33.597 director? And he said actually I'm a professor. Oh 01:02:33.630 --> 01:02:39.157 and the we kept talking and nice guy and yes they've been married five 01:02:39.190 --> 01:02:42.066 years now 01:02:42.099 --> 01:02:47.686 it's sort of off the topic. Okay that's a wrap. Well Kristin, thank you so 01:02:47.719 --> 01:02:52.307 very much for sharing your memories of a issue. You're very much a part of 01:02:52.340 --> 01:02:57.307 this institution. And it was wonderful to hear your stories and being able 01:02:57.340 --> 01:03:04.117 to work with you fred Corey, that's an outstanding part of my work was 01:03:04.150 --> 01:03:08.159 having you in an office next door.