this interview is part of Arizona State University retirees association,
ongoing video history project. This is May 17 2009.
It's been recorded the S. U. Memorial Union by Dave sexy and john McIntosh
interview as I ken holland and myself Matthew Betts and we're joined by
linda Vance coy who is chairperson of the project overall
start with give me your full name and tell us when you were as you and
what was your position?
I said, give it my full name, sounds like it was stopped by kind of
control persons.
My full name is paige Elliott Mulholland
most of the time and I came to Arizona State University 1978.
My position was that time provost. I think that that was a new position
because I replaced Carl downing felt who had been vice president for
academic affairs when he returned the administration made a decision to
recruit under a promo time. Nobody knew what that meant, pretty much
including me, but it had responsibility for all of programs. The
university across the university campus,
where were you born when we were born? Where were you raised
December 10, 1934. But if you can't subtract makes me about six months
away from being 75.
I just had my first great grandchild here in phoenix
requirement to be having a great grandchild is only that you'd be very
very, I am mhm I went to your birthday Arkansas For Bachelor degree in
marketing in 1956. Sure Between 18 and 24 months in the military when I
went on active duty. You know, there were no activities abroad and the
services were actually interested in getting rid of officers rather than
encouraging new neurons. Army farming and they were, you know, they're
giving you a choice of six months,
six months active duty and some extra time
being the preservers as a result or you know, staying in for go to your
term. I chose the two year term and then before it was over they came
around with an opportunity to shorten it for some Reserve time and I took
advantage of that. So I served a total of about 18. And what base was that
started out for bliss in there in the field artillery. But but
basic officer course was in the corporal missile missile at that time only
services service. That's what we were we were capable of using.
And then I was transferred from there to Oklahoma and Lord. Just a couple
of three months before I got
I left the military and working the family business for a couple of years.
Family business was wholesale furniture which was a bad business at the
time. I was emerging from the military. It was disappearing and it's no,
there's no such thing as wholesale furniture. It's all done directly
with the factory today and I didn't enjoy the virtual visitors. It was
clearly not going anywhere. two of the family history stores was
transferring retail surely wanted to retail. So what I did was correct.
Time to go back to the University of Arkansas and get a Master's History,
which I did in 19
mhm. Something back in there around 1962.
Um and then went to University of texas for a PhD Yeah. Having completed,
of course we're there, came back to the University of Arkansas on the back
60 30
Left there for a year to work on the Lyndon Johnson Work History Project
96. Yeah, the uh johnson library, which we had a board, I decided to do a
major world history project. And I heard, mm hmm. Ex chairman of the
history department at the University of texas. And for full time interview.
Well, I looked out the executive office building next door to the White
House,
tried to enter as many as possible of the people who were important to
Lyndon johnson at any stage in his career, who were still fighting my own
job was foreign policy Area of interest for my dissertation, I've been
teaching so I tended to get assigned to all the people whose knowledge of
johnson whose contact with johnson was in the foreign policy. We had
another person who's
main interest was military.
His main interest was
political thanks. The one who was interested in business activities
which interchange and over those guidelines. But basically mistake in the
year that I was off on leave. I think I interviewed About 120 125 people.
And
yeah, during the first two or 3 years I was in Kansas State. I probably
did another 25. So you're on sabbatical from Oklahoma.
Was Bill Moyer involved in any way
no longer in the office that he was no longer director information workers
title was but he was he was still in town and group did interview Bill
Moyers but I didn't,
I lengthy correspondence, lengthy interviews with
Secretary of State
several of his deputy who was that secretary of state. Anymore names that
I've known so well and I can't tell you,
Dean Rusk we need to run
and it's terrible you're not gonna like it. McNamara was in there,
Maghaberry was one of two important people. Don't talk to us back to
America in the process I think sorting out where he was facebook later
published but he would not under any circumstances talk. That's right. And
the other one was J William Fulbright. I'm ashamed to say Senator from
reconcile even the fact that he was going to be interviewed by a
dependable or Kansas did not soften his opposition to talking with you.
You know, first I talked to who was interested in the project for 20 years
or more shortly thereafter took a job at Kansas State University as
Associate Dean of Arts and Sciences, staying there for three years and
moved to the University of Oklahoma where I was Dean of Arts and Science.
Very large college. During the direct reports.
During that time, stayed there five years and was selected after a
national search as provost today is you and you showed up on this campus
never having been in the states other than that moving to a higher
position. What cause you to come to the issue or what do you find
attractive in before you made this, you made your decision? Well, you know
, you just
like any career you're in, there are there are steps along the way that
our recognize that stepped up. I, I have been associating. I have indeed
now here was a possibility that I might be the next step up from that.
And the job was open by that time they were recruiting nationally for all
of them going through the proper process is from no bias get hurt and I
interviewed him. The president called several days later and offered me a
job. Vice president President john
while you were here.
As you think back, is there any particular incidents that stick out in
your mind as significant whether incidents in any university all the time
and you evaluate those incidents from your own advantage point? I guess.
I don't think there's any average, anything that was very exciting. The
one that got the most public interest was the firing of frank kush
something been here forever recall. Put coach kush it was a great mother
figure at Arizona state game in Washington which I happened to attend
accidentally. I didn't go the team to see all the road games. But for some
reason we had gone to the he was accused of physically striking one of the
players. Obviously we came with big public
demanded action and uh john swallow who's president ultimately did yeah
release coach kush
and paid a great price for. I found a lot of people I think around here do
not think highly of john by that time. But I think he was he was a man of
principle. I think he had to do what he did the testimony of what
athletics does sometimes
two institutions that had he done the right thing. He was john was smart
enough to know that he couldn't be a successful president because there
were too many areas of the community that we're never going to forgive him
from having them responsible for firing frank kush. But he didn't need
sugar. The same kind of episode occurred in Ohio, about that time. Some of
you may be called.
But a lot of them presents we replaced it. No.
What about the birthing process for a S. U. West you were key. And yeah
that's my that's on my list of things I wanted to talk about, whether you
asked me about it.
That's an example of a good interview person. Besides what he's gonna say.
And you just become superfluous. Oh
mm hmm when I got here
the West Valley but it was represented in the legislature but there's some
very strong people what they wanted was campus in phoenix.
The university had never really thought of itself in terms of what it
meant to be in phoenix. When I got here, fresh from the outside world, it
seemed to me that the biggest findings that Arizona state had in
competition with the other two institutions of the state or within
competition competition of other institutions in the broader there it is,
was our location in a city that was the largest population concentration
anywhere in the southwest
where there was enormous economic activity. That,
and was it one of the things that we most, we're being criticized for not
trying to serve people in the west. Mhm I spent enormous amount of time,
the first couple two in getting the first approval of this campus. Okay,
move towards the creation of the West campus and then getting some money
for it from the Legislature and planning for him in terms of fiscal plan.
The university owns some land out there just south of Thunderbird.
And so it's not a problem with where you put it, but we had to go through
the planning process of hiring an institutional platter
Washington who did the work and do a spectacularly good job. They built us
a model that I could take around and put on the table and let the people
over there see what we were proposing to do. And for. And one of the few
instances that I'm aware of. We actually university actually built the
west campus to that plan. They usually find a reason not to do it or not
to be able to afford it or somebody doesn't like it or whatever. This time
they built it like that and it's a very nice, difficult plan. We had a
american council education fellow here at that time. The deal fell through.
Yeah, she did the statistical work to convince the regions that there was
demand for educational services in that area that could be satisfied a
certain level of support. And they were will it do that? We we we started
teaching classes and some great schools that were invented for several
years. We had a tiny little library and one of the buildings and Helen
gave her this campus went over to take over the librarian's job became one
of the driving organizational forces in the west campus.
I just want, I don't know much about it today, what I do know, I guess I'm
moving disappointed. Mhm. Main campus never did like the other. Right. And
they did everything they could to keep it from being an independent entity.
They Okay, triumphant. It's not an independent entity.
They didn't know how to be
separately accredited for example. Um And the administration was was
clearly under the wing of capital.
So
I had hoped that West could be would be more than that, but the
opportunity for it downtown and Williams Air force Base and all over the
place with these
subsidiary campuses and I assume that it works pretty well. So a couple of
grips
where we thought we were designing it for a little more than it turned out
to be dale felt her left, she was the first scene, but she left president
of central Washington, right,
what you need and then subsequently back to Houston where she had come
here from.
Thank you. First Vice president of the system Houston University system,
which was probably a bigger job than her presidency of central Washington.
Let me Mhm. Change direction just a little bit. You've always said that
you're not a technologist. However, it was under your regime that the
concept of in servers, information resources management came about and we
were one of the first campuses in the country to go that way with
consolidating all the information resources under one umbrella, what do
you call recall about that? But when I don't know anything about it, try
to find somebody who does and I found you actually, I found you the person
you succeeded first and then, but we talked about what such a concept
involved and what it meant. Criminal court elephants. Mhm. Then you went
about and did when I write with the right state and I want to do the same
thing. How are you
to come down? And he did we do and we did it again, we do go back a long
way. Uh but I think that's an important observation.
It's amazing how short a distance ago it was when there was almost no use
the table. I mean I can remember here when the a faculty member who used
computers in the classroom, it was revolutionary the object of
conversation and discussion around the campus. Nobody
sounds good and we were the same way with, with distance learning, tfs,
TFS, I couldn't remember the dude instructional television services we we
were able through that system which was a reel early day communications
device to offer courses around the valley to have any location. Remember,
I don't half dozen, half dozen locations, but it was another step along
the way to what we can do today, we were just a portion ahead of time.
It was largely to do with your skills. Yeah, that's
when I came here that the College of Liberal Works had everything from
rags to riches, physical education, social work,
Criminal justice, that doesn't look like the profile of colleges, liberal
arts and sciences. I had suffered some from that and at Oklahoma before I
came here. And so I was somewhat sympathy, aware of the problems.
So we created the College of liberal arts and moved out of liberal
constituted because of public programs out of remarks
journalism, which subsequently became the contact school has been very
successful,
well regarded university journalism department from universities
with Criminal justice, with the social world programs that were not
traditional liberal arts and concentrated them, you know, single college
under a dean. Mchenry was the first dean after a natural search. He had
been chairman of public administration which was another one that we put
there. And as I look at the graduation, wait what yep.
College of public programs have become a great success. It has now I don't
, I didn't count them up. It looked to me like it had 8-10 different
programs and departments in it all of its share
a interest in public service, professionalizing public service by training
people to do the jobs that need to be done in areas like journalism and
public administration,
physical education and recreation and those kinds of programs. So I feel
like that that initiative has turned out to be successful.
Other notable achievements you want to talk about, Oh I've got a lot of uh
huh I don't claim full paternity for any of this. Unfortunately, really
good people working in the office of the programs
we did some things that I think have turned out to be but profitable for
the institution, not always popular at the time. One of them was just the
concept that we promote ourselves as the university in phoenix and we
encourage our people to use their academic skills to compute it too pigs
and its continued growth prosperity and two spoons who lived in things and
wanted to attend the university
later on I worked that principle right. State became part of natural
movement join institutions of this country. Yeah, she was a little big two
please. Um, but our focus on serving local companies like intel. Mhm.
Lead to a, an emphasis on the engineering that the dean of time Rolling
Hayden call it engineering excellence. Mm hmm. Today, the College of
Engineering and the issue is widely admired as being one 50 years old,
best engineering school in the country. You could not have said that about
it, get back to you,
but because Sully Sullenberger. Okay. Other local levers tell him he was
director of Salt River Project. Jack Jack Fisher, Jack Pfister. That that
group of business people took seriously the idea that we were trying to
serve the local interests are actually research programs. They were
responsible for additional funding and help with the legislature that led
to the expansion of and the improvement of the College of Engineering. And
that's a success story.
What what problems did you encounter either financially or
administratively that you'd like to talk about or not? Promise problems,
problems,
I don't think. I don't know that they're really it at the, at the time,
there were terrible problems looking back
so bad. We, we needed
two
yet. And understanding from our local legislative delegations, oh, why it
was important to support Arizona State University and what we needed that
we didn't have in order to support us and that what that means is personal
lobby. I didn't do much of when I was the first year,
but it is a, I did more and more of it along with a very talented young
man named Brett Brown, you may remember he died past 12 months. Brown
Brown knew everybody in the legislation and he was able to get the end to
see whatever legislator it was and there were some very powerful ones from
furniture
and we began to make some progress
when our friends down Tucson didn't like that a lot.
Thanks. Border regions was made up of Do you think graduates with one
exception
already?
Camera camera what alone? American county
only?
Mhm. And we began to make some progress.
The state office office? What? I'm not sure that's the right word
began to say ease off.
So positions that are contrary to one another. So we did so pretty much
told to do so yeah, subject,
you know, it never was the chancellor's office. It always wanted to be,
but it never got the title.
That office is a problem everywhere because
none of the universities are happy with their place in the pecking order.
It's a good, they think they ought to be hi and so they want the
chancellor's office to take care of them
totally.
With some exceptions, I think usually hard. But yeah, their trade offs in
the legislature never unanimous popular, so you don't burn up some capital
aji proper.
How would you compare the governance? Yeah. Arizona versus Ohio as far as
higher education in your own experience, there's so much difference it's
hard to say
Ohio has 12 graduates
institutions.
There's only really to Northern is getting more important graduate level
But Ohio's got 12 million people, there's not going to have that many. So
you can argue that that's not too many.
And the pecking order in Ohio is so well established that is that it's not
much of a contingent, there's Ohio State and Cincinnati and then there's
everybody else and everybody else fighting with each other. So but nobody
thinks that it's going to become Ohio State or Cincinnati. And so there's
not a great public concerned with the head um here, you know,
traditionally you might have been the notable institution and you have
never challenged it before and what we were trying to do with not that we
didn't want to tear it down but we wanted to be recognized that is for
true academic
merit that we had in our faculty and students,
there were a lot of people dedicated to the proposition that that
shouldn't happen.
Sure when you came here there were L. P. C. S we didn't have a desktop. I
think they're probably still using four trend cards for processing data
and registration. Was these computer cards. Think about how quickly that
changed.
It's remarkable that just as far back as time I was here it was so can be
described as primitive but today is that and instruction revolutionary
revolutionized as well. I don't know whether you have any faculty members
don't use some kind of technology in the classroom.
So when I, when I quit teaching,
please move Of teaching was to stand up and deliver a 50 minute collection.
Mm hmm. Students sat there with blue books. They wrote down notes about
what you said. Mhm. They went off a little text. You had one other talent
that I used to at least say the people that you had and that it was in the
financial area. I used to say Page Mahal is the only one I knew of that.
What you're walking around with the entire budget is hit anyway. What you
can remember about budget detail uses his full smallest.
No, no, I was, I was fortunate. Allen carol freak
control me. She said, where did you
to be the budget? Mm hmm. But I don't know that that was a talent greatly
useful. Well, it was because I can remember you would spend vacancy
credits three times over and we would say, how are you going to fund that
? I got vacancy credits and a month later. How are you gonna find that
basically credits and nobody could figure out how work with these.
That's why you don't start out as president. You start out the honest
thank you.
Even though you professor and I'd be technology competent. You still have
a vision and you put money into programs. I can remember my staff being
here at the time when the budget was tough and they thought it was
fruitless to develop a budget because we weren't going to get anything in
there. I promised them that it would pay off. And I can remember more than
once we get to the end of the fiscal year and you would call me up and say
we've got this these funds, we got to spend them Inside of 15 days. And I
would call up people and I would say the money trucks here go and we would
spend the money and you're the one who could spend it. That's right. We
had it lined up and it was his counsel though that even though he didn't
appreciate the specifics, he saw the value and uh I was willing to put in
, well, you're trying to spend money like that on things that have long
term value to the institution rather than things that gratify short term
interest. And clearly we were at the stage of technological development.
Remember you had the woman that I admired, admired and
joint article about all of this. And I think that's my last publication.
Uh so, you know, one of the things that a good administrator do is
sequesters and funds when they're related to pay for things that are
important make it through the budget process for a long time, a lot of the
things that we call technology didn't write very high. Mhm priorities.
Overall university budget process.
Now they do barely. He was taking advantage of the big time and their year
long years ago, folks,
do you have one Best Memory of Your Year? Is It Is You? My goodness.
I had a very pleasant time this community and this institution. Mhm. My
most pleasant memories probably are sitting in the room here. I had a
wonderful staff. three of 3 out of four from here. Sharon Sandler was the
4th 1 and I'm glad to hear that she is still around
and then the spouses of the same morning jenny. So I think my pleasure
here was more personal media that has been in other places
in terms of what, what makes you happy
and that's not a bad thing.
Lonnie Ostrom said, hello. Uh,
do you have any thoughts on the issue Foundation? What was the status of
that? Mm hmm.
I'm not sure I know enough to be to say anything intelligent. We always
needed more money. The issue was not taking in big dollars in those years.
Mhm. It's hard to say that's,
you know, the fault of the Foundation or or any individual. It certainly
wasn't at fault on the industry. Thank you. But there was no tradition in
our support base of people giving big gifts to the institution and they
had to establish that culture. I think they've done it. Certainly. You
read the names of all the colleges seems to
enticed sizable grants, Private grants resulted in Beijing. Okay. But that
was not the development area doing that at the time. We were very, very,
no,
they ran the alumni association and some things like that. That helped.
Sure they took care of it. I was not currently involved.
I don't know. I guess I'd be interested to know how you, I think the
university is how dramatically has changed. Oh, I don't know how to
explain that. I have dragooned, ken and picking me up at my son's house
and bring me principally because I'd be afraid to try to drive
because nothing is where it belongs. There's things, there's things all
over the place that I don't know what are, I don't know how to get one
seriously. I could probably have problems coming finding this building,
getting a car parked and so on. Unfortunately. Canada lives in the south
part of town airport,
done
for the year style.
How are you conduct the affairs of the institution? Would you say you were
formal informal?
Where's your comfort level?
Where would you say it was?
You know how to be protected?
No insurgent purpose.
Well, this may get edited out, but I can remember when I was working for
you, I would walk into your office and if your tie was off, I would walk
to the window and see that the president's car wasn't there. And so
whenever the president left the premises, you dressed down
unconscious. I don't remember doing that. I called you on a couple of
times. Well, okay. I will say I'm happy to be a crusade that a lot of
place for that, Whether it's sorry or people in Oklahoma periodically. And
if you even back as far as Kansas state, oh, continue to be friends,
enjoy the procedure periodically. Keep up with.
That's a source of pride. I guess guilty of that.
You're looking at it. I'm gonna mention some names that were here when you
were robert stout
education and left here.
Can somebody tell me where he went? Because I ran into him where he went.
But I can't think of who. I can't remember where that was.
University of Nebraska at Omaha. Maybe
anybody that doesn't ring a bell with anybody. Okay. I'm sorry. But, and I
were here at the same time,
liberal arts and science ghetto peter wagon. Why? He was a very low key
dean. Mm hmm. Two department chairs, um, frequently I think he was
disappointed in me because I favored extracting from his kingdom. Several
programs that make up the college of public programs.
He, I don't mean even unpleasant, but we had shouting matches, but I was
one of his favorite people. Okay. We don't like it. It was very located.
He did one thing for that college and probably were the world because it's
, we've been fairly successful in getting that done by the time you got
here. That was before him. There was really a division in college between
arts and Science. The science is versus the social sciences
in terms of almost everything you wanted to know budget buildings. It was
about
actually I ran back into the city I heard that right from the other way.
They had them divided. There were a lot of people who think who thought
that including me that they deserve to be, that they supported one another.
That it was not. If I was majoring in history and you are majoring in
Blarney, we shouldn't be totally unable to talk to separating. The
department's tended to specialize student choices in ways
help.
But I have 38 direct reports in Oklahoma. I've never found a problem.
Relate right at home Economics and social work. Physical education
do I? History is who is that? But you know, they can be made to work.
Most academics are interested. Yeah, ideas,
yes, promote conversation. They find ways, working with, enjoying each
other. They're smart people here to start with
Charles Wolf. Oh yeah. Here's the graduate college.
No
brian foster came
Charles Wolf was was a good granted
right.
Administration school of Social work was there is now
that was still part of the continent at that time. And so I didn't in the
contact, you know, with the people in individual programs for jules. Helen
, he was finally fine honors. Yeah. But yeah, you're, you're bringing back
nostalgia means I hadn't heard or remembered for some time, but
Helen Matheson.
See I'm passing the test. It might not be, but 70
about a guy named Jack Bennett. He was a little bit of, he was vice
president for business
and he left Year or two for me. That's right. Yes.
Frank sacks. Good man. And I'm sorry I lost track of frank's, but he has
died. Has not. Yeah. I thought someone had told me he was teaching courses
up until last year. As I recall ethics guys, He was on Macarthur's staff
in Japan after World War Two as a brigadier general. That's what you're
talking about 1945.
That's, you know, 55 years ago. And he was in general by then. So we
didn't start out when he was 18. He was a general. I didn't, I don't know
how old he is. But he's a remarkable man. He, he was still contributing
and working hard and all over the place when I left And his remains, I'm
told 16. He was very helpful, particularly helpful in the college of
public programs because he, his home department was public administration.
They didn't want to be in the college of the college and the College of
didn't want them except for whatever money.
So he was a strong supporter. Mm hmm. Lead to target public programs.
I hope if you see him, you'll give him my regards. Not really.
I thought that I had been told
more about Brett brown,
really hard working, intelligent, but very low key type of person that
stayed below the radar.
He came from a historically mormon family and he'd been on his
when they called me mission and come back
initiatives education maybe it was hard. He was paid by the developer
throughout but his job was chief lobbyist.
He had all the tools. I mean his back his family background and everything
about him qualified him.
Be able to talk and be listening political establishment so he was really
nice to I don't know what he did.
Mhm. Their intent was to get us out of the lobbying
with him
who is very active in getting the women's field campus.
It's interesting there's three of us were our last names all began with B.
Brown Bets and backers. Okay with the
that's one because that's how where he lives. Yeah so he had he had a
residential interest. Yeah sure. But he was a team player. He would have
been equally adamant trying to get the money for something in southeastern
south west as he walks around.
I want to talk a little bit about right state. I don't know why you gotta
hear the interesting, you haven't talked about much there. I'd be
interested in it because I was there when it was just a field along the
road and uh since you helped develop the west campus. Imagine that's one
of the reasons they hired you to help build that understand they had a
pretty good medical school.
They're not astronaut
residency program for positions in the country,
the only non military. So they do a lot of space age activity research and
so but they also have traditional medical school. one of them successfully
accredited ones that works with at the hospital. It was always a great
advantage because hospitals pain in the neck for universities. Minister
we used the community hospitals which are by many accounts better because
in the research hospitals that most universities,
the interns see only serious or desperate illnesses
in the community hospitals. They see the real hospital world,
maternity ward,
broken bones, emergency gruesome, so they're more trained better In terms
of what they're going to encounter in the medical world. And the other one
that's good and burglaries. The university has been very, very successful.
Not entirely during my watch we're entering, it's now Between 17 and
19,000 students. It's not nearly as much as commuter school as it used to
be. Housing
25
pretty size institution.
It's in the same
research category as measured by the Carnegie Foundation. That is using.
That doesn't mean that that looks cool. You don't do as much as service
is going to happen here. But it does mean that the research activity is as
intensive there as it is here. There's only three categories. Both issues
and Right state or in the middle category.
The ones that are in the top category are the ones that you'd expect to
find there. Thanks.
And clearly
research successes,
right. State is located geographically right adjacent to wright patterson
Air Force Base. Did that adjacency influence programs in the school. We
used their laboratories
engineering heavily.
A lot of people from their enrolled in
two further the role education. Yeah, I think the president was that I had
a protocol rank of brigadier general. So Walters parking please.
They had a beautiful officers club. They're built in the W. P. A nice
brick facility.
I don't know how many there are now, but we were really successful with
the legislature on capital appropriations
and it's built uh, that that field is scarcely viewable as a field anymore
and you can't see that much ground between the buildings yet has however,
preserved very used, interesting architectural feature. And that is that
every building is on tunnel system. Take the elevator to the bottom floor.
You're not on the floor one, you're in the basement, You can walk from
any building, any building. Yeah,
the same person. We can serve disabled people without them ever having to
go outside in the wintertime.
That village. Prerequisite for each of the buildings that's been built
clear all up until I just finished or still get it on the drums. So only
university in the country.
And has had a full program of encouraging physically disabled students
come to hydrogen and has a large large lumber enrollees are disabled in
one way or the other on the physical infrastructure you were at the helm
of
at another center. Yeah. That, that makes you popular with the
athletically inclined voters that corresponds to basket
anybody. Arena where events are basketball committee
in its design. Yeah, it was, it was designed by the people in Kansas city
and I can't call their names. Hmm. Tv. Yeah,
it's not, it's not a large arena standards of here. But for the whole deal
Somewhere around 12,000 big enough kinds of events that the right.
So it's, thank you. I've told people that was the best presidency in the
country because I had a Division one athletic program but didn't play
football and mhm mm hmm.
And the hospital medical school didn't have a hospital. So if you can
avoid those two things, that's kind of an idea of presidential Helen.
I thought I was just tired by 19
nine years at that time. The average presidency in the United States State
University
between four and 5 years and sort of double the average and I could afford
to Quentin Westberg saying someone, I quit and watch birds and safe.
I don't regret. And you're living where I live now in back in Fayetteville
Arkansas, it's the fourth time we've moved Undergraduate and graduate
faculty. And now back we were starting to help head south Carolina for 11
years and then one day at night, just looked at each other and said, what
do you think about going back to fifth? Go to the same. Yeah, let's do it
for 60 days later. We had mood.
Where are the
no Beaver Lakes, 60 something 1000 acres. Have a cannon on. It had for 40
years, but that had always taken us back there summertime. So it was
Children going up there on the way their Children.
So since last week, the retirement communities like Hilton,
they're fun, usually interesting places. But the black diversity in the
population is just short of money
there. There I knew one retired naval captain who told me one time he
played golf. 250. Yeah. Now you got to be something wrong. 250 times a
year. That's five times a week. Every week and two weeks on vacation. I'm
sorry, more time with him and there and he was about it. He was by no
means a long way in that.
I'm trying to start. You mentioned the Hilton head, tell the story on you
and you can deny it. Remember you, you came and you said matt. We've got a
very nice condo and I've got a slip for the boat, I paid as much for the
slip for the boat as it paid for the condo. That's true. So when I sold
both of them, I got more for the boat that I got from that.
It was not an economic success, but it was, we managed to live with.
What caused you to pursue it a career in higher education. It sounds like
you started on that track early early. Well, I like schools. I like to
study. I liked history even though my first degree was in business. And
when I, I didn't have anything else that I knew I wanted to do. I thought
getting extra education in the field I really enjoy. It would be fun.
Is there any one person who had a great influence and even you in that
direction and a number of people?
Well, I've been influencing practically everything. I've done a very loyal
and hard, long suffering wife Married 53 years soon. The corn
chief supporting goodbye activities.
The decision to go off and do something else. I guess the thing that got
me into athletic administration was the Dean of Origin Sciences in
Arkansas. Who knew when there's an opening
deems associate teams like the Kansas state of course was there. He was a
good friend of the people in Kansas state. Mm hmm. They called and asked
him if he had anybody who might be a good associate dean. Why sometimes I
believe he told me because he saw these troublemakers. Anyway, he told
them that he thought I would be good at that kind of thing. And sure
enough I've interviewed and subsequently there they aren't, it's good
experience changing States are very nice institution. Manhattan chances.
It's a wonderful
someone could scarcely have started better place than Kansas State
University
being executive in an institution. Pretty time consuming, Pretty focused.
You've managed to keep balance. How did you do that? You're a burden.
You're an avid sailor.
Well, I'll take a little time off.
No, I, I'm interested a lot of things and that's one reason why I like
that can make administration, people would say, you know, why on earth do
you want to be an academic administrator instead of Well paid academic
with 10ure,
good colleagues and entertained subject and so on. But my, my interests
are too diverse. My wife and I have organized all of our travel project
For the last 25 years around our interest in watching birds and that that
can take you all over the world. We spent two months in Australia for
example learning to give bird tours to Australia. This one interesting
concept, but we did. Um, and we were pretty good at when we lived in a
while, we were close enough to the great lakes that I could
Buy and enjoy a 36-foot sailboat. And I, when we moved to South Carolina
in retirement, I actually ascended from the Valley offshore two help me So
it was diversion. I can not go to, we hear you on the weekend. Nobody was
gonna give me a telephone call about. Right.
And if they knew that I was no cell phones in those states, they know as a
matter of fact they were, I was provided with a car phone, but it wasn't a
cell phone, a real telephone.
I'm not remembering. My technology is limited. Cell phones or semi
mysterious. Still,
we ought to mention you while living here in the desert. You also had a
boat. Yes, I'd say a womanly pleasant before it was changed 26. And we
have to move that boat. But you're and when I saw lake here the first time
, I don't want to take that. So, so we have we've got a bigger role. So we
will find the great lakes
nine years after those.
And so that was that was fun. And that keeps you, I think that keeps your
mind british. You go back from the window weekend,
you haven't been worried about things all week or something. Might even
have a creative form.
You were on a lot of different committees and commissions throughout your
career. And I'm wondering if when you look back, you can
comment on which ones of those were successful, not not in particular, but
in general. And all this kind of work. What were the ingredients to make
things work? Well, it's not one given any thought to.
There are a lot of higher education associations.
You start usually at a regional level. Get it acquainted with the people.
That's where the that's why where they do their best work this, making
people understand what other people are doing. Getting ideas watching out
the pitfalls and so on. For example, I was a member of the, of the Dean's
group when I was in Kansas state that was all the beings in Kansas and
Oklahoma.
I moved to Oklahoma
part of a group that was the whole Southwest and South Southern us
together. So again, danger was Vice President of Academic affairs here. I
was on vice president. Um So those geographically
designated,
not quite top level
groups are very important in teaching people who are and then providing
contacts to help us leaders, big national organizations like the land
grant Association.
They do good work. A ce has a wonderful the american council on Education
program on uh sending young faculty members to the mentor administrators
are very program I mentioned l Felder, she was here for a year as a fellow
and then we kept her on for it because you or something. And then we hired
her as a deed that tells you right, our job. The same thing at wright
state caring quiet. Mhm. Basically fellow, he kept her for a year there.
She ended up,
they're called president and chief operating officer. South florida.
So you know, we had an opportunity. A lot of people who do no, I think
that's sort of the typical body, you know, which is very helpful. It's
costly to the yes, Travis is involved but in terms of pay off problems.
Mhm.
Just a young to be president ordered call you say I need some mentoring.
I'm about to embark on an opportunity as a president of an institution.
What guidance would you give them?
Well, it depends on how ambitious he was.
Yeah, they're they're endless tips.
But I think it's, you know, develop your set of values, develop yourself
of ambition before important institutions and trying to develop a program
that leads you towards that.
We did that with the uh Metropolitan University movement at Wright State
and it's paid off in big, big time for writing.
Unfortunately, it's not a move that that particular one is not a move that
faculty likes it because they want to be nationally. They believe they're
already nationally qualified leader. They want to be, mm hmm. Being really
good Metropolitan Institution is not go
incorrect thinking.
But get into those situations where you're view of the future and your
hopes for the future or not share
history department or the whole college of liberal arts or the entire
faculty or the legislature
border regions. Big one.
Reviews. Speaking of boards, how do you think of president best relates
with the board? Well, I think there's a, there's a magic way. I think,
yes, look at an individual board members. Mhm. If there things that an
individual board members, you're trying to serve those interests if you
can or explain why you can't and you generally ordered let the board
Okay. Help the board do its duty by screaming
ambitions
b getting there for the, that may not be those may be they never be
coincidental with that of the president or in the other office,
but you're not going to change very many minds too often.
Most of the board members are successful people. They know
administration's work in the corporate world.
Hey,
you're running the ship pretty quickly.
I'm not really in trouble. I called him. Well done. If in the bottom
about the same question
about the contrast between the board, the way you had it wright. State
university from the board here in Arizona. I think there's no question
whatsoever.
A board that represents a single institution. You can do that better job
of supporting the institution.
Mm hmm. Who was that takes on the task of doing homework.
Ohio had separate boards for each university. That's correct. Appointed by
the governor. Nine year terms.
Mm hmm. There. As I told you what? I know that there were 12 research
institutions in the state and who prioritized who got the resources in the
state. We're hitting the detector. What the, the board ran off of them.
The board ran an office in things. Um, including what the executive
secretary of the Uh huh. And he had the responsibility for developing the
budget that the board would ultimately consider and approve and that would
be for all three institutions here. Mhm.
In Ohio the door, the central office and steve
transmitted the budget request of the 12 institutions and provided
lobbying support in the legislature in columbus on behalf of those
projects that yes, there was a state board to which that group reported.
It didn't have any response for an individual campus. And so mhm,
campuses would sort that out every year in budget. What they do is they
build a competitive I sense into Universe because clearly it's seen as a
zero sum either. Not if you get it, then I don't get it. That makes being
happy. Mm hmm. It's less pronounced in a system such as Ohio. Mhm, mm hmm
.
I quit.