WEBVTT 00:00:06.440 --> 00:00:08.440 today is november 14th 2019. And we're conducting an interview for the 00:00:12.769 --> 00:00:18.407 Arizona State University retirements Association video history project. 00:00:18.440 --> 00:00:22.576 We're located today in the A. S. You community service building. My name 00:00:22.609 --> 00:00:27.107 is Bonnie Eckerd. I'm professor emeritus of theater from the school of 00:00:27.140 --> 00:00:33.287 film dancing theater. The technical support staff today include john 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:41.320 McIntosh on camera, roger carter audio dave Schatz lee interview crew, uh 00:00:41.750 --> 00:00:47.287 linda Vance coy director and Barry McNeill chair of the video history 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:52.196 project. So I'm very pleased to interview my friend and colleague Gus 00:00:52.229 --> 00:00:56.196 Edwards. Please introduce yourself stating your name and your position at 00:00:56.229 --> 00:01:00.646 A. S. U. When you retired, my name is Gus Edwards, formerly Augustus 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:03.307 Edwards, but 00:01:03.340 --> 00:01:06.357 nobody calls me that anymore. I'm glad you said friend as well as 00:01:06.390 --> 00:01:12.156 colleague and I was full professor when I left in theater, dance and film 00:01:12.189 --> 00:01:17.607 teaching, concentrating primarily on film, but also on ethnic studies for 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:22.977 performers and aspiring actors of color. So tell us a little bit about 00:01:23.010 --> 00:01:25.917 your early life, Where were you born, where you, where were you were 00:01:25.950 --> 00:01:31.036 brought up? And how did you get to new york city? I was born on a small 00:01:31.069 --> 00:01:36.346 island called Antigua and that it was at the time british west Indies B. W. 00:01:36.379 --> 00:01:42.906 I. And when I was six, my my parents brought me to ST thomas, I lived in 00:01:42.939 --> 00:01:50.837 ST thomas until I was 19. During that time I saw a lot of films, read a 00:01:50.870 --> 00:01:56.467 lot of books and met met several authors um particularly one man who 00:01:56.500 --> 00:02:01.066 actually wrote paperback books and I used to work in a restaurant and he 00:02:01.099 --> 00:02:04.266 told me what a wonderful life it was. And I thought that's the life I want 00:02:04.299 --> 00:02:11.087 , he also had a very attractive wife and he said, you know, he vacationed 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:14.767 maybe two months out of the year and I thought that's the life I want, I 00:02:14.800 --> 00:02:18.626 want to be a writer, I want to write paperbacks and I want to live like 00:02:18.659 --> 00:02:23.286 this guy. And then several people came down to make movies. Among them was 00:02:23.319 --> 00:02:28.927 a film called Our Virgin Islands and Sidney poitier was one of the stars 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:34.837 of that and john cassavetes and I worked for a local radio station so that 00:02:34.870 --> 00:02:39.226 I got to talk to both of them and certainly had a similar background to 00:02:39.259 --> 00:02:45.436 mind. He came out of Jamaica, moved to new york and then he made it as a 00:02:45.469 --> 00:02:49.636 film actor and we talked a lot about that and he said, you know, the thing 00:02:49.669 --> 00:02:53.406 to do is move to new york. And so in 59, when I graduated from high school 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:58.777 , that's what I did. So tell me about new york, tell me about your 00:02:58.810 --> 00:03:03.827 experience and arriving in new york, I had acted in a lot of plays in 00:03:03.860 --> 00:03:09.136 school and moments after arriving or seeing other actors, I realized I 00:03:09.169 --> 00:03:14.036 knew nothing about acting. And so I started taking classes with Stella 00:03:14.069 --> 00:03:20.906 Adler and then uh I worked with Bill Hickey from Herbert, Berghof studios 00:03:20.939 --> 00:03:25.397 and then I started auditioning and every audition, I went to the one thing 00:03:25.430 --> 00:03:30.566 that told me was wrong was my accent. And so acting in theater, getting 00:03:30.599 --> 00:03:35.856 professional work is hard for anyone. And so what happened was the younger 00:03:35.889 --> 00:03:40.036 aspiring actor like myself, they started what they called the off off 00:03:40.069 --> 00:03:44.997 broadway movement and that is where you acted for free in churches, in 00:03:45.030 --> 00:03:51.356 lofts, you acted um wherever storefronts anyone would um had a stage or 00:03:51.389 --> 00:03:55.247 space that you can act in. He had made no money with this. Most of the 00:03:55.280 --> 00:04:00.827 time they admission was by donation. And then I worked in restaurants and 00:04:00.860 --> 00:04:05.027 so I could eat food and I could save, I could continue acting and so the 00:04:05.060 --> 00:04:09.397 cafe La Mama, if you know what that one is. I acted in several places at 00:04:09.430 --> 00:04:13.156 once played christ and one of the places because these were experimental 00:04:13.189 --> 00:04:18.306 things, you know like that and during that time I started to write place, 00:04:18.339 --> 00:04:22.286 I'd rather a lot and I get my first ambition as I said, was to be a writer 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:27.406 , second was to be an actor. I did like movies a lot. So I really went to 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:31.447 a lot of movies during that time. And finally I thought, you know, I'd 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:36.027 like to know how movies are made. So I went to film school as well. And so 00:04:36.060 --> 00:04:42.127 that was pretty much you know in capsule the small um area I lived in and 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:47.796 worked in. So tell me about your education because you went to film school 00:04:47.829 --> 00:04:54.007 but you're also self educated, more or less because I read a lot and at a 00:04:54.040 --> 00:04:59.027 certain point I was really scattered about what I was reading and I lived 00:04:59.060 --> 00:05:04.897 across Central Park, not far from the Metropolitan Museum. And so I would 00:05:04.930 --> 00:05:08.166 go over there during the summer when I had time off for when I was between 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:14.447 jobs and I would go into various rooms and look at you know, very colonial 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:18.207 rooms for instance, I would look at that and I got curious about how they 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:24.527 lived and so there was, there were bookstores that Uh so remained at books 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:30.166 at usually 10 cents per because at that point I was making about $45 a 00:05:30.199 --> 00:05:35.127 week and just about to pay rent, eat food and write the trains. And so I 00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:39.116 would do that then I'd read one book after another in terms of fiction. I 00:05:39.149 --> 00:05:44.267 just read across the board in an unorganized way. I've gone to a catholic 00:05:44.300 --> 00:05:49.767 school in ST thomas and so all the stuff that we'd read had been things 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:53.637 like God is my co pilot and religious books, the confessions of saint 00:05:53.670 --> 00:05:59.087 Augustine, but I never read the contemporaries Hemingway Fitzgerald john 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:03.457 dos passos, you know that sort of thing. And so I started reading one 00:06:03.490 --> 00:06:09.007 after another and that was sort of how I educated myself up to that point. 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:15.777 And then as luck would have it, I started reading Somerset mom and mom 00:06:15.810 --> 00:06:21.236 wrote across the board, he wrote a book called uh the 10 best novels. And 00:06:21.269 --> 00:06:27.687 so that got me to reading flaubert balzac dickens and several others have 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:33.137 some of the Russians as well. And then he mom was a great collector of art. 00:06:33.170 --> 00:06:38.856 Um and there's a book called purely for my Pleasure, which is his artwork. 00:06:38.889 --> 00:06:42.817 And so looking at his various artwork and a lot of cases he knew the 00:06:42.850 --> 00:06:46.207 artist personally like Picasso, he bought him lunch at Picasso, gave him a 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:50.507 painting, you know, And so I got what makes Picasso so interesting. And so 00:06:50.540 --> 00:06:54.777 I'd get again from that bookstore, I had stacks of these books that you 00:06:54.810 --> 00:06:58.366 could never return to throw him out, you know, but I read about you know 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:03.197 art and then he wrote about Spinoza and people like that. He has a whole 00:07:03.230 --> 00:07:08.166 book on philosophy. And so I read read that and then he wrote so many 00:07:08.199 --> 00:07:14.937 short stories about the South seas about his life as a spy. He was a spy 00:07:14.970 --> 00:07:18.877 during the First World War. And he wrote to my Mind, the best spy book 00:07:18.910 --> 00:07:24.306 ever written called Action and the british agent. And it's Hitchcock I 00:07:24.339 --> 00:07:28.627 think made two films out of that one called confidential Agent or Secret 00:07:28.660 --> 00:07:33.767 Agent, you know like that. And so reading more. Um he also wrote about 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:38.606 thomas hardy for instance who he knew and wrote a novel that was not too 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:44.877 far away from hardy life, which was called cakes and ale. And so in 00:07:44.910 --> 00:07:50.166 reading more, my really got a white spectrum um he wrote a lot about the 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:55.707 Second World War, about Hitler particularly. Um and so with that I could, 00:07:55.740 --> 00:08:01.176 you know, get that aspect of my education sort of filled up a little bit 00:08:01.209 --> 00:08:04.637 because there's major gaps and then from theater, you know, read 00:08:04.670 --> 00:08:08.486 stanislavsky, you read Chekhov, you know, you do that kind of thing on 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:14.187 that end of it. And so it was, it took about seven years, you know, of 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:17.757 accumulating all of this knowledge, particularly the knowledge about film 00:08:17.790 --> 00:08:22.736 , Hollywood and its history, the life of stars uh in film, the life of 00:08:22.769 --> 00:08:28.536 directors. And so that was what I did while I lived in new york. Uh and 00:08:28.569 --> 00:08:32.746 then I was still trying to be an actor, I turned around and I decided that 00:08:32.779 --> 00:08:37.496 I wanted to write plays and so I wrote a whole series of short plays, many 00:08:37.529 --> 00:08:42.157 of which were done in the very same church, front storefront theaters that 00:08:42.190 --> 00:08:45.687 I had acted in and somewhere along the way I thought to myself, you know, 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:49.957 you've got to stop this because you're not making a living and I'm still 00:08:49.990 --> 00:08:54.317 waiting tables, you know, that sort of thing. And I wrote a full length 00:08:54.350 --> 00:08:59.756 play and I was working for Skitch Henderson, you know, he was, yeah, they 00:08:59.789 --> 00:09:04.756 conducted the Tonight Show orchestra and he had a restaurant and so as 00:09:04.789 --> 00:09:08.187 we're waiting tables then, you know, I always think everything in my life 00:09:08.220 --> 00:09:15.707 has been luck and happenstance. And so what happened was um there was this 00:09:15.740 --> 00:09:19.217 fellow came in, I didn't know anything about him, but he, he was an anglo 00:09:19.250 --> 00:09:23.136 man who came in with several african american young african american 00:09:23.169 --> 00:09:27.636 people. And one night he came into the restaurant and they all ate and 00:09:27.669 --> 00:09:33.526 that by station and he was embarrassed because he forgot his wallet. And 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:37.577 he even offered to let them stay there while he goes, go home and get his 00:09:37.610 --> 00:09:41.016 wallet. And I said don't worry about it, Jenna come whenever you're, you 00:09:41.049 --> 00:09:45.687 know, feel comfortable and you can pay it. And he was so grateful for that 00:09:45.720 --> 00:09:49.856 that we became friends and we talked, it turned out he was a minister in 00:09:49.889 --> 00:09:55.657 Harlem. And so we, we got friendly enough and if you live in new york and 00:09:55.690 --> 00:09:59.226 you're of a certain age and you're waiting tables, it means that you're 00:09:59.259 --> 00:10:04.986 aspiring to do something else. And so at one point he said to me, what do 00:10:05.019 --> 00:10:10.146 you do? And I said, you know, I'm trying to be a writer. And he said um he 00:10:10.179 --> 00:10:14.006 asked later, when he knew me better, he said, um can I see something 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:19.636 you've written? And um I did something, I never do you ever do. I actually 00:10:19.669 --> 00:10:24.077 gave him this play that I had written called the offering and after he 00:10:24.110 --> 00:10:29.116 read it, he said, he told me that he was a friend of Douglas Turner Ward, 00:10:29.149 --> 00:10:33.907 who was the artistic director of the negro ensemble company. Uh the negro 00:10:33.940 --> 00:10:38.626 ensemble company at that time was probably the best known african american 00:10:38.659 --> 00:10:42.567 theater in the world. And so I said really? And he said yes, I'm on the 00:10:42.600 --> 00:10:48.797 board advisory board. And so I said sure he took the plate to Doug. And 00:10:48.830 --> 00:10:53.787 about six months later I remember it was right after christmas he said to 00:10:53.820 --> 00:10:58.577 me, you ought to call Doug about your play. And I was really very shy 00:10:58.610 --> 00:11:02.136 about being shy about anything like that. I said, well maybe he didn't get 00:11:02.169 --> 00:11:05.187 a chance to read it. So finally he said, look, he said I had dinner with 00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:09.136 him and his wife and all he talked about was your play. And I said really 00:11:09.169 --> 00:11:14.217 ? And so he said you should call him. And again I was reticent and I said 00:11:14.250 --> 00:11:18.417 what he will call me when he's ready. And so he said, well I'll arrange 00:11:18.450 --> 00:11:21.886 for both of you to meet, we'll go down, we'll see one of the players, I'll 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:28.157 ask him to have a drink with us after. So he did. And so Doug came in and 00:11:28.190 --> 00:11:31.096 he didn't tell him I guess. And Doug said, oh my God, he said, I knew that 00:11:31.129 --> 00:11:35.366 was I was, it was a setup. That's what Doug said. And he met me and he 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:40.307 told me effectively what Harold leads was a minister's name had said, he 00:11:40.340 --> 00:11:44.376 said, you know, I really like you play my problem is I'm committed for 00:11:44.409 --> 00:11:50.526 three years, so I don't want to commit now until I have space for it. So I 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:55.437 said fine, you know, and I left it at that. And then in the interim, three 00:11:55.470 --> 00:11:59.396 years, every time I wrote a play, I would put an envelope and I would take 00:11:59.429 --> 00:12:03.927 it down to the theater and just leave it with with his secretary and leave 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:09.616 quickly. So they didn't catch me. And so one day and working a bar this 00:12:09.649 --> 00:12:14.876 time I left daily sketch denison's place. I'm working upon, I get a call 00:12:14.909 --> 00:12:18.526 and ask for Gus Edwards and I said yes talking and the secretary said, 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:23.287 this is Doug secretary, we'd like you to come down and um we'd like 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:28.246 because doug would like to do all three plays in one season. I mean that 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:33.276 was amazing, you know, like this. And so in that little flip of a coin, um 00:12:33.309 --> 00:12:39.197 I transitioned from waiting tables tending bar into being in quotes, so 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:43.506 called professional playwright, 00:12:43.539 --> 00:12:51.167 Jazz, which is another passion of yours. Well, I got a job from PBS and a 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:54.957 man named David Luxton called me and I don't remember somebody recommended 00:12:54.990 --> 00:12:58.516 me. And he said that he was, he was a british man. He said he was tired of 00:12:58.549 --> 00:13:04.447 seeing british television shows on american tv because PBS does a lot did 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.717 a lot of those things. And he said, I'd like to do something that's 00:13:07.750 --> 00:13:12.516 Indigenously american. And he said to me, Jazz and the Hollywood film 00:13:12.549 --> 00:13:16.486 industry are the two basic american things. And so he had already done a 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:21.006 thing called the Tales of Hollywood hills from Scott Fitzgerald stories. 00:13:21.039 --> 00:13:27.557 And then he said he told me he wanted to do something on Buddy Bolden and 00:13:27.590 --> 00:13:31.327 I had never heard of him and he said he's the man who is credited with 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:36.896 inventing jazz as it were. Um And I said to him, I said you know, I might 00:13:36.929 --> 00:13:40.006 know something about calypso because I'm from the islands, but I don't 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:44.346 know anything about jazz. And I guess he liked my candle because he said 00:13:44.379 --> 00:13:47.766 would would you be willing to study something to think about writing the 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:53.687 script? And I said sure. And so he paid PBS paid for me to spend a month 00:13:53.720 --> 00:14:00.506 in new Orleans. Um Duke University rehearsing, I mean researching jazz in 00:14:00.539 --> 00:14:05.457 general, but even actually holding onto the papers that wrote things about 00:14:05.490 --> 00:14:09.876 body building and they were disintegrating in my hand, you know, while I 00:14:09.909 --> 00:14:15.626 was reading them and um I got really involved with that and some of the 00:14:15.659 --> 00:14:19.037 places that he went to. But Embolden is considered what they call the 00:14:19.070 --> 00:14:25.516 father of jazz because he was the first to improvise off of an established 00:14:25.549 --> 00:14:30.516 melody line and then perhaps come back to it every so often using it as a 00:14:30.549 --> 00:14:35.236 point of reference. And so there are no recordings of him. They're not 00:14:35.269 --> 00:14:42.697 even sure of his dates. Some say, Um, for others says 1864 that he lived. 00:14:42.730 --> 00:14:50.496 And he had about five years where he was the best known musician. And the 00:14:50.529 --> 00:14:55.677 only way to really know about him is in the 1930s. Around that 38, uh, the 00:14:55.710 --> 00:15:02.417 Smithsonian and the Library of Congress sent out investigators to search 00:15:02.450 --> 00:15:06.876 out the roots of jazz. And they talk to people like jelly, roll morton, 00:15:06.909 --> 00:15:09.677 they talked to louis armstrong people like that. And they all said, well 00:15:09.710 --> 00:15:14.126 when I first heard it was Buddy Bolden. By that time Bolden was dead At 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:19.327 least 12 or 13 years. He was institutionalized. He went crazy and he was 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:24.437 institutionalized for the last 35 years of his life. And so nobody knows 00:15:24.470 --> 00:15:29.577 that much. Um there's books called, you know the legend of Buddy Bolden, 00:15:29.610 --> 00:15:34.697 etc. But the music, he was the one who started jazz after I wrote the 00:15:34.730 --> 00:15:40.797 screenplay and the jazz sounded very, very different from what we think of 00:15:40.830 --> 00:15:45.146 as jazz. It was, it was more like marching music like that. And one of the 00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:49.346 things, one of the best days I ever had was I spent when it's really a 00:15:49.379 --> 00:15:53.856 week with Dick Hyman and he did all the music for woody Allen movies, 00:15:53.889 --> 00:15:58.876 Piano player. And he has one of the best collections of jazz albums 00:15:58.909 --> 00:16:04.646 discography over 50,000 and he put together, I have to tape at home a 00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:11.226 thing called I call it jazz transition because I wanted at the end of the 00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:15.616 film that while the end credits are coming up, we're showing black and 00:16:15.649 --> 00:16:20.437 white photos. Starting with Buddy Bolden and moving to Sidney Bechet and 00:16:20.470 --> 00:16:24.646 then moving all the way up to Winter Marcellus. And as that happens you 00:16:24.679 --> 00:16:28.407 hear the music change, change, change change because I wanted the audience 00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:34.827 not to know that bolden with this track where he played a cornett with the 00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:39.486 cornett led to Miles Davis led to Marcellus etcetera. And the music would 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:43.467 change each time we changed the still photographs. So the film never got 00:16:43.500 --> 00:16:47.986 done because he died that the producer David locks locks and died and a 00:16:48.019 --> 00:16:52.726 new person came in took over and just had their own agenda. And I the 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:57.327 rights revert back to me. I own them now because but it took 25 years 00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:01.096 before I could get them back. I didn't ask for them, but they own it for 00:17:01.129 --> 00:17:03.886 that amount of time for what they paid me. They paid me fully for writing 00:17:03.919 --> 00:17:08.296 the screenplay and stuff. So I again, that's where you get educated that 00:17:08.329 --> 00:17:11.407 somebody pays you for. 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:16.687 That was my buddy bolden thing. And around this time you start teaching as 00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:20.536 well. Well what happened was, you know, with playwriting as I said about 00:17:20.569 --> 00:17:25.726 the theater, you can make a killing but you can't make a living. And so I 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:29.046 was doing things like I was on committees. I was a judge for the Obie 00:17:29.079 --> 00:17:33.256 awards, I was doing anything that would make money because when you play 00:17:33.289 --> 00:17:37.207 goes off the stage, you have no money coming in, no royalties really. And 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:45.240 so I was looking for residencies and um this residency came and I didn't 00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:49.387 even think I could qualify, I didn't have that many places, you know, in 00:17:49.420 --> 00:17:55.357 my background. Uh it was from A S. U. And so I I got, you know, I sent out 00:17:55.390 --> 00:17:59.957 the the form, I filled it out anyway sent it out and then I got a call 00:17:59.990 --> 00:18:03.526 from Billy Jenkins who was the chair of the department at the time and he 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:07.967 was coming to new york and he said he wanted to meet me. And so we met and 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:11.187 we didn't talk about theater at all. We talked about our enthusiasm for 00:18:11.220 --> 00:18:16.086 mystery novels and he was a big fan and so he said, would you come out and 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:22.407 interview? And I said absolutely. And I came out and I interviewed and 00:18:22.440 --> 00:18:26.187 they asked me to come in for two years and I did well one year and then 00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:30.236 they extended it to two years. And so I came in and that's what I was 00:18:30.269 --> 00:18:34.967 telling you earlier that I wrote a play about Somerset Maugham because, 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:40.516 you know, he's my favorite author and his quotes, my invisible mentor. And 00:18:40.549 --> 00:18:45.707 so then I went back to new york and so I was ready to do the circuit of 00:18:45.740 --> 00:18:51.776 residencies and I did residency and Iona College in New rochelle and then 00:18:51.809 --> 00:18:56.167 bloomfield College in bloomfield New Jersey. And in the meantime I was 00:18:56.200 --> 00:18:59.427 still, I was doing things like being on the board of the new york council 00:18:59.460 --> 00:19:02.857 for the Arts and the National Endowment and trying to put a living 00:19:02.890 --> 00:19:08.066 together and then one day will then right, who was then chair of the 00:19:08.099 --> 00:19:12.796 theater department came into new york, we had lunch and she wanted to know 00:19:12.829 --> 00:19:17.417 if I wanted to be the playwright in residence again. And I said, no, I've 00:19:17.450 --> 00:19:23.117 done that here. And she left and about a week later she called and she 00:19:23.150 --> 00:19:27.657 said, we have a spot open if you'd like to be a faculty member where I 00:19:27.690 --> 00:19:32.607 could bring you in as associate professor and you teach intro to theater, 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:39.187 but you also work um, some area with cultural cultural diversity. They 00:19:39.220 --> 00:19:43.927 want to just make room and a comfortable space for actors of color, 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:48.467 aspiring actors of color to feel comfortable within the context of what 00:19:48.500 --> 00:19:52.546 they were teaching in the department. Prior to that, all teaching and 00:19:52.579 --> 00:19:56.786 theater thought, um you know, the classics, the Greeks, Tennessee Williams 00:19:56.819 --> 00:20:01.826 and stuff. But I think maybe the only played by people of color that they 00:20:01.859 --> 00:20:07.516 thought was a raisin in the sun. And so my title was Director of 00:20:07.549 --> 00:20:13.097 multiethnic theater and so any ethnic actor, we had where I go and meet 00:20:13.130 --> 00:20:17.157 them and I'd find material coming from their own background because I 00:20:17.190 --> 00:20:20.457 really believe in the philosophy when you're teaching acting anyway that 00:20:20.490 --> 00:20:23.506 if you can't play your own grandfather, you can't play your own mom, you 00:20:23.539 --> 00:20:27.947 won't be able to play anybody else. Yes sir and sir, um we would work from 00:20:27.980 --> 00:20:33.427 that premise and I have wonderful experience with several um you know, 00:20:33.460 --> 00:20:37.566 young people. There was one young fellow and I will never forget him. His 00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:41.957 name was Wayne Cody, I remember his name, he was native american and he 00:20:41.990 --> 00:20:44.937 was going, he was in the honest college and he took some of my classes and 00:20:44.970 --> 00:20:50.326 he needed to do uh honest thesis. This was the time when dances with 00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:55.387 wolves came out and we were talking about that film and he wondered what 00:20:55.420 --> 00:20:59.006 he should do. And I said, you know, we've heard everybody else's opinion 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:04.766 about this film and they were praising how sympathetic and insightful it 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:07.947 was about native americans. So I said, but we haven't heard the native 00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:11.407 american point of view. So maybe you should do that. He was from the white 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:17.536 water tribe. And so he started with handwritten things about asking them 00:21:17.569 --> 00:21:21.806 questions later he printed a form And when he was finished, he had over 00:21:21.839 --> 00:21:27.306 2000 people that he had interviewed. And um it's one of those things where 00:21:27.339 --> 00:21:30.586 they said when you become a teacher by your students, you're taught that 00:21:30.619 --> 00:21:34.467 absolutely opened my eyes to so much. I mean this thing was so thick. I 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:41.336 remember he said to me did I do the assignment, said that you've gone so 00:21:41.369 --> 00:21:47.086 far beyond the assignment, that it's amazing, you know, like this and that 00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:51.137 commentary were really contrary to all the other opinions that they had, 00:21:51.170 --> 00:21:56.127 you know, and so uh that was one of the things that was so rewarding about 00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.667 working with these students. You see, I had a good time doing that, 00:21:59.700 --> 00:22:04.756 mentoring is a major part of your contribution. That was I think the 00:22:04.789 --> 00:22:09.586 contributor to me as well. I remember there's another young fellow that I 00:22:09.619 --> 00:22:12.967 would meet even in the summer when we were off because we talked about 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:20.046 film genres and sub genres and I introduced him to the idea of film Noah, 00:22:20.079 --> 00:22:23.776 um you know, that's the dark side films that explored the dark side of the 00:22:23.809 --> 00:22:27.927 human psyche. And so I told him that it came from the french novel Noah 00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:34.597 and he got so entered, we would meet every summer um in some restaurant 00:22:34.630 --> 00:22:37.407 once a week for lunch because he tells me all this Reading, his reading 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:41.197 transcended mine again because he was passionate about his young and he's 00:22:41.230 --> 00:22:45.157 passionate and it's exciting and so I'm still friends with a lot of these 00:22:45.190 --> 00:22:50.266 guys or women to, there were some women that um there was one, she gave me 00:22:50.299 --> 00:22:56.607 , she had a she had a play and it was really not very well plotted, but 00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.847 she could, I could see she had a great sense of humor. So I had her do 00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:04.867 monologues and they were very funny. They got produced in new york in an 00:23:04.900 --> 00:23:09.826 off off broadway situation. And she even got an offer from NBC for to 00:23:09.859 --> 00:23:13.306 write one of soaps and she, she couldn't leave her family. She said 00:23:13.339 --> 00:23:15.826 because she would have to live in new york. But those were some of the 00:23:15.859 --> 00:23:21.167 signal successes. You know that I felt, you know, that occurred that I I 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:23.996 really don't think yeah, I think it would've been successively hadn't met 00:23:24.029 --> 00:23:28.476 me. But luckily they did and therefore I will take the credit for that. I 00:23:28.509 --> 00:23:32.786 never passed your office when there wasn't a student in there. Well what I 00:23:32.819 --> 00:23:36.457 did always, I said to them, I said, look, you know the doors are wide open 00:23:36.490 --> 00:23:40.667 , come on and talk to me about whatever you want to talk about, I can't 00:23:40.700 --> 00:23:43.707 solve your problems, They don't bring me problems. But if you see a movie 00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:46.887 that you like, come on, we'll talk about it. You said play that you like 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:50.857 come on and talk about a new story that you like. That could be turned 00:23:50.890 --> 00:23:54.726 into something else. I always said to them that I was the first step 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:58.266 person. I said, Meryl Streep had to somebody had to tell her go up and 00:23:58.299 --> 00:24:02.476 make a fool of yourself before you get good. You know, and the same thing 00:24:02.509 --> 00:24:05.607 with writing. I'd say you're here to write badly because unless you write 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:09.286 badly, you're never going to write, Well, I want to take away that onus of 00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:13.197 , oh my God, I have to make this terrific. I have to make this specialist 00:24:13.230 --> 00:24:16.637 to just write the goddamn thing and then we'll work on it, we'll make it 00:24:16.670 --> 00:24:20.647 good if it's not good. And all this time you were writing and you 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:25.147 published a lot of books. Well, what happened was playwrighting became a 00:24:25.180 --> 00:24:28.326 secondary thing cause I really loved being in the classroom. I mean, I 00:24:28.359 --> 00:24:32.786 hadn't planned on it and I didn't know how it happened, but I really 00:24:32.819 --> 00:24:37.306 enjoyed that. I enjoyed talking to the students in interacting with them. 00:24:37.339 --> 00:24:42.397 And one of the things was, for instance, in my workshop, I had them doing 00:24:42.430 --> 00:24:45.326 monologues and to give them examples. I would write a monologue and said, 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.937 do something like this. And I got enough that I put together and made an 00:24:49.970 --> 00:24:53.407 evening of theater called Lifetimes on the streets because it was all 00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:58.117 street people. And so it got done in new york and all of that. So that's 00:24:58.150 --> 00:25:03.697 how the writing came. And then at a certain point, I am a writer that's 00:25:03.730 --> 00:25:08.796 what I would be doing as a living or I was attempting. And so writing just 00:25:08.829 --> 00:25:12.486 as natural, you know, to sit down and write something every day and 00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:16.486 ultimately just send it out and hope somebody would be interested enough 00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:21.217 to publish it. And so that during that period, I did get About seven or 8 00:25:21.250 --> 00:25:26.947 books published. Yeah. And your plays. I mean my impression with your 00:25:26.980 --> 00:25:33.717 plays is um you really write fascinating characters that are very complex 00:25:33.750 --> 00:25:37.647 and you don't judge them. You kind of leave it to the audience or to the 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:43.147 reader to use the term judge because that's what you liked about the place. 00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:47.016 He said you never pontificate or tell people, I don't know how that can 00:25:47.049 --> 00:25:50.897 do things accidental, you know? Um It's from the influences of all the 00:25:50.930 --> 00:25:55.187 playwrights I read and that we had that would all be out here. And so I 00:25:55.220 --> 00:26:00.336 met him and I um I really loved the work of Harold pinter. There was a 00:26:00.369 --> 00:26:05.066 point there were one critic even said pinter comes to Harlem was one of my 00:26:05.099 --> 00:26:10.816 players because I guess the style was so similar that yeah and I told 00:26:10.849 --> 00:26:14.927 people said what you're aping Harold pinter and I said well not really. Um 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:18.796 I'll get my you know people see my own voice because it's very different 00:26:18.829 --> 00:26:23.236 than it is, but just influenced by him, you know? But the thing I'd like 00:26:23.269 --> 00:26:29.377 to say about all this is S. U. And the department particularly it was so 00:26:29.410 --> 00:26:35.766 so supportive of just about everything I do did or asked about doing that. 00:26:35.799 --> 00:26:40.006 It was wonderful. I mean I can't think of any time I was ever refused 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:44.607 anything that I asked for. You know, and I tried not to ask for too much 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:50.006 because you know, outstay your welcome doing that. But I even got that 00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:53.476 little theater space that I said, you know, I wanted that we called prism 00:26:53.509 --> 00:26:59.607 , you know the prismatic colors of the spectrum. Um I got that and as I 00:26:59.640 --> 00:27:04.847 said, I got so much encouragement from both my faculty, you know and 00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:09.187 colleagues as well as the students that now that I'm retired, several 00:27:09.220 --> 00:27:14.566 friends, you know, you you know, we have dinner together all the time and 00:27:14.599 --> 00:27:18.246 several of the students, the one that we started, I started that film 00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:23.107 company with that's running wild, you know, I was a student, so I want to 00:27:23.140 --> 00:27:31.140 read a quote that I found about writing plays you write historically in 00:27:31.150 --> 00:27:36.097 film and on stage African americans have been virtually invisible. Even 00:27:36.130 --> 00:27:41.566 the big roles African american actors obtained were so stereotyped that we 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:46.697 didn't recognize ourselves and subsequently became ashamed of ourselves. 00:27:46.730 --> 00:27:51.147 The force that impelled not just myself, but many african americans to 00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:56.226 stick it out was a determination to change those stereotypes, to give 00:27:56.259 --> 00:28:01.697 ourselves dimension by writing worthwhile roles that portrayed african 00:28:01.730 --> 00:28:06.447 americans honestly, can you reflect on that? Well, first I'll tell you 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:11.717 what they're saying somewhat, it's true because I didn't tell my parents 00:28:11.750 --> 00:28:15.937 for instance that I was coming to America in order to involve myself in 00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:20.937 theater and film because the images that they saw were these steppin 00:28:20.970 --> 00:28:25.597 fetchit type characters or in the charlie Chaplin film Birmingham was 00:28:25.630 --> 00:28:29.107 always afraid of ghosts to me and they played it for laughs, but that was 00:28:29.140 --> 00:28:33.986 all that you saw was where those kind of characters and so I remember one 00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:37.647 time I said something to my mom about maybe interest being interested in 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.776 film and there was a guy in the island named Mongo Niles and he had, he 00:28:41.809 --> 00:28:45.627 had been in one film, a film will return here with called an affair in 00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:51.167 Trinidad and and he played a bongo playing character, had no lines or 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:55.536 anything but um she was so ashamed of that, she said you're gonna wind up 00:28:55.569 --> 00:29:01.036 like Mongo nas. And I remember getting mad over that. And so well there 00:29:01.069 --> 00:29:05.296 was a departure and he was getting work that really was as they say here 00:29:05.329 --> 00:29:10.976 it is quote dimensional, but he was the only one, you know? And so it 00:29:11.009 --> 00:29:15.137 evolved Douglas Stone award. That's the reason he started the negro 00:29:15.170 --> 00:29:19.986 ensemble theater because he said he wanted to break the stereotypes and so 00:29:20.019 --> 00:29:22.847 that's what he's looking for different playwrights and stuff himself 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:27.377 included who could write place coming out of the community. There used to 00:29:27.410 --> 00:29:33.486 be a phrase called crossover appeal. And so if you wrote an african 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:38.766 american play, producer said does it have crossover appeal? And that meant 00:29:38.799 --> 00:29:46.076 will anglo whites see it and appreciate it. And we started thinking well 00:29:46.109 --> 00:29:51.867 we make the leap to appreciate their work. I never thought Streetcar named 00:29:51.900 --> 00:29:56.207 Desire was a bad player, I wanted to know more about the characters in new 00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:00.657 Orleans especially polish backgrounds etcetera. And so we thought why 00:30:00.690 --> 00:30:05.157 don't they try to learn from us as well because the exchange could happen. 00:30:05.190 --> 00:30:08.816 And that was why the negro ensemble occurred. And after a while we began 00:30:08.849 --> 00:30:12.726 to see that in the audience because sometimes there would be a joke that 00:30:12.759 --> 00:30:16.447 would be made and all the black people in the theater would laugh and the 00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:19.486 white people say what was that and the black people tell them. And 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:24.357 subsequently you had that exchange. So what he's saying here in that quote 00:30:24.390 --> 00:30:30.407 who was who was the quote that I said it? I said oh my God 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:35.526 see that's why you agree with 00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:38.467 memory. Yeah. 00:30:38.500 --> 00:30:46.306 Yeah. Anyway I'm glad. I said it sounds good. I know it sounds very good. 00:30:46.339 --> 00:30:49.726 So let me talk about film because you were teaching playwriting. You were 00:30:49.759 --> 00:30:53.357 doing the multi ethnic theater, you were doing a lot of things and then 00:30:53.390 --> 00:30:59.357 film kind of you came back to it in your teaching. Talk about that and 00:30:59.390 --> 00:31:03.947 then talk about S. U. N. Film because I think those two came together. 00:31:03.980 --> 00:31:08.556 Well what happened was there was there were a couple of teachers in the 00:31:08.589 --> 00:31:13.086 teaching film and I would sit and talk with him at lunch and stuff because 00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:19.226 I had nobody else to talk film to colleagues and someone left and when he 00:31:19.259 --> 00:31:23.417 was asked who should replace him he went on vacation and extended amount 00:31:23.450 --> 00:31:28.457 of time. He said Gus and the chair Lynn against said, she called me and 00:31:28.490 --> 00:31:31.347 said, you know anything about film And I said yes, I've been studying film 00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:34.756 all my life and I probably know more about film than I do about theater. 00:31:34.789 --> 00:31:39.347 And so she let me teach that class and then somebody else went. And as 00:31:39.380 --> 00:31:44.697 people left I wound up taking uh, you know, the film classes and I had 00:31:44.730 --> 00:31:51.657 taught theater for 15 years. So it was a nice change for me. And the nice 00:31:51.690 --> 00:31:56.407 thing about film is that you with theater, when you speak of something, 00:31:56.440 --> 00:32:00.776 you have to, I always said the ideal way to teach theater is I need a core 00:32:00.809 --> 00:32:05.246 of about seven actors. So that I can say this is how it should be and then 00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:09.026 show it. But with film you can, you can take a clip and you can show you 00:32:09.059 --> 00:32:11.847 said this is what I'm talking about, that is what I'm talking about 00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:18.546 etcetera. And so it was fun to do that. And I, I enjoy teaching aspects of 00:32:18.579 --> 00:32:23.667 film that I didn't think a lot of people knew As I said, two genres, you 00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:28.326 know, musicals that make a musical, so interesting or different. Um, no, 00:32:28.359 --> 00:32:33.306 or or westerns. You know, one of the things I loved about westerns is that 00:32:33.339 --> 00:32:37.387 westerns cover the entire spectrum of genres because you have musical, 00:32:37.420 --> 00:32:41.127 western, horror, western, science fiction, western, mystery western, you 00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:47.036 name it, there's a western that exists in that specific genre. And the 00:32:47.069 --> 00:32:52.427 western is the only really american genre developed american genre. It 00:32:52.460 --> 00:32:57.006 started because of the yet the settling of the west. And so that was kind 00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:01.806 of fun for me to do. Um so much so that I used to teach summer classes and 00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:05.917 winter classes because it became particularly the summer and winter 00:33:05.950 --> 00:33:11.056 classes. They were kind of like Gus is little film club 30 or so students 00:33:11.089 --> 00:33:15.717 and if it was early enough I bring coffee they'd bring muffins and stuff. 00:33:15.750 --> 00:33:18.647 And we talked about the film then we put it up and then when we're 00:33:18.680 --> 00:33:22.927 finished we talked about it and I would ask questions and again in doing 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.397 that I learned so much from them because that point of view, nobody took 00:33:27.430 --> 00:33:32.806 it seriously. Were interesting to hear. I remember I showed a Russian film 00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:40.246 that is one take one long camera take that lasts two hours. And we talked 00:33:40.279 --> 00:33:44.046 about that. And I remember one young lady afterwards I said well what was 00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:47.117 your experience? But she's and she said something that no credit card seen 00:33:47.150 --> 00:33:50.357 the films had said, I haven't thought of, she said it was taking like 00:33:50.390 --> 00:33:57.756 taking a long deep breath and exhaling very slowly for two hours and it 00:33:57.789 --> 00:34:01.917 was really very apt description, the best description of the film. And 00:34:01.950 --> 00:34:05.187 then we talked about the subtext of the film, you know, we looked at in my 00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:09.736 Bergman's films, I particularly like foreign films, so we looked at films 00:34:09.769 --> 00:34:17.486 from china japan anywhere and I know it's a fantasy, but in my wildest 00:34:17.519 --> 00:34:22.197 dream, I always think if we understand each other culturally it could lead 00:34:22.230 --> 00:34:28.677 to harmony on the planet, possibly piece like that. But as I said, it's a 00:34:28.710 --> 00:34:33.427 fantasy and a wild dream, but nevertheless I have to underscore what I'm 00:34:33.460 --> 00:34:39.077 teaching with something that I think is serve the greater good like that. 00:34:39.110 --> 00:34:44.816 So that was the film thing. And then somewhere along the way we had, I had 00:34:44.849 --> 00:34:48.206 a small budget and 00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:52.017 you know, I started showing or talking about showing people how to make 00:34:52.050 --> 00:34:56.927 films because I got inquiries from so many students about that. And over 00:34:56.960 --> 00:35:01.776 in the art department, there was a man named lulu Dahlquist and he made 00:35:01.809 --> 00:35:08.086 animated films and so I asked if we could pay him a certain amount to come 00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:13.767 over and teach because the technical aspect is pretty much the same. Um 00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:17.776 some of that teach that, and so with that, that was the beginning and that 00:35:17.809 --> 00:35:25.256 class lasted for about eight or 10 years. And then more and more students 00:35:25.289 --> 00:35:31.916 began to inquire about a film school here. And um I had no means of doing 00:35:31.949 --> 00:35:37.247 it, but I talked to the the Deans and they all were very interested in it. 00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:42.177 And at one point we even thought we'd just come up with a certificate for 00:35:42.210 --> 00:35:45.537 the film class because it's quite a lot of money that I couldn't ask 00:35:45.570 --> 00:35:49.477 anyone to, you know, involved in healthcare and I wasn't yet an 00:35:49.510 --> 00:35:55.697 administrator of any kind. And then somewhere along the way, um, President 00:35:55.730 --> 00:36:01.407 Crow was the one who I guess he heard this, you know, people saying they 00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:05.956 want to film school and he put up the money for it, you know, And from 00:36:05.989 --> 00:36:09.097 there, the film school was built and built and built until it's one of the 00:36:09.130 --> 00:36:15.427 best. It's still being built and it still is evolving and changing. But I 00:36:15.460 --> 00:36:20.427 think you were really in on the grassroots of well helping to get some of 00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:25.586 that together. But even that I really wasn't qualified, although I've 00:36:25.619 --> 00:36:29.546 written screenplays that have been produced, I wasn't really qualified, 00:36:29.579 --> 00:36:34.856 you know, in the sense to teach any aspect of the film class. Um, you know 00:36:34.889 --> 00:36:39.006 , the technical stuff, I don't know at all. I can't even program my own 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:45.367 DVD machine. You know, my wife does. And so um, you know, we got, they got 00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:49.407 real professionals, people who knew what they were doing and we would talk 00:36:49.440 --> 00:36:52.566 all the time and I appreciate that the people I learned from them as well. 00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:57.537 So being at issue was an education for me as well as hopefully I 00:36:57.570 --> 00:37:01.646 attempted to provoke a thought process that would lead to the educative 00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:07.967 process in my students. Could you say more about how the film school has 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:13.557 become so prominent. I don't know how, because I left, just as it really 00:37:13.590 --> 00:37:17.796 began to build and it's so in transition. I mean, they're building this 00:37:17.829 --> 00:37:24.276 campus in Mesa. I think film is going to go there, but it's not been 00:37:24.309 --> 00:37:29.217 announced yet. I mean it's not official. So that's going to be a massive 00:37:29.250 --> 00:37:34.506 thing. So right now we're together with film, dance and theater and we 00:37:34.539 --> 00:37:37.816 have, we have nice, well not great facilities, but we have okay facilities 00:37:37.849 --> 00:37:45.849 , but this will just explode it and it's, it's exploded enrollment wise, 00:37:46.530 --> 00:37:51.186 which is, and you know, it is being supported by the administration, but 00:37:51.219 --> 00:37:55.347 we're so in flux right now. Like it's, we're right in the middle of it. 00:37:55.380 --> 00:38:02.606 It's about to happen. And I haven't seen you since 9 2010, so I don't know 00:38:02.639 --> 00:38:07.486 really, except what I read. Um, but I'm not on the inside of it hearing 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:13.276 what they've been doing etcetera. Yeah. And I just retired in, in May. And 00:38:13.309 --> 00:38:18.037 just since I retired, it's like totally changing because it's moving off 00:38:18.070 --> 00:38:24.186 to the Mesa, um, location and they're building that from the ground up. 00:38:24.219 --> 00:38:28.066 And so it will also not just be filmed, but it will be multimedia. It'll 00:38:28.099 --> 00:38:36.099 be, you know, digital arts, it'll be, um, coming an interdisciplinary film 00:38:36.460 --> 00:38:40.287 approach, which I think will be remarkable. 00:38:40.320 --> 00:38:42.836 Yeah, 00:38:42.869 --> 00:38:49.997 I think it's going to be, yeah, that's Crow and it's expensive, but if we 00:38:50.030 --> 00:38:54.526 come together with it, like with instead of film just being on its own to 00:38:54.559 --> 00:38:59.387 come in with, you know, digital arts across the campus 00:38:59.420 --> 00:39:04.506 since retiring, you have partnered up to start a film company, talked 00:39:04.539 --> 00:39:08.956 about this. Well, that's because one of my former students are, a lot of 00:39:08.989 --> 00:39:14.256 them are friends now and they're all pushing late thirties, early forties. 00:39:14.289 --> 00:39:18.017 One of my former students, Travis Mills, is Islam. He took several of my 00:39:18.050 --> 00:39:21.907 classes and because some of the classes were big at 100 students in him, I 00:39:21.940 --> 00:39:26.347 didn't know him. But one night we wound up in a movie theater together and 00:39:26.380 --> 00:39:34.380 there were about 08 or 10 people who had, he was in the theater. So, you 00:39:35.070 --> 00:39:38.256 know, we saw each other and he came and sat next to me and we watched the 00:39:38.289 --> 00:39:41.907 movie and after that we started meeting on a regular basis. By that time 00:39:41.940 --> 00:39:46.267 he had taken every class I taught and we'd have lunch and after I retired 00:39:46.300 --> 00:39:51.486 , he had taken the film school by that time it had been created and he had 00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:56.416 taken the film school classes. And so he came to the house and he said, 00:39:56.449 --> 00:39:59.646 you only want to make a shot. He used one of my short stories and he made 00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:03.597 in one night, quite a good film short film out of it. And he continued 00:40:03.630 --> 00:40:07.686 doing that. And he said, you know, we should start a company. And I said, 00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:11.407 why? And he said, so that, you know, it's, it's organized by this time, he 00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:17.617 was about 26. And so I said, look, if we're gonna do that, you're gonna do 00:40:17.650 --> 00:40:21.157 all the heavy lifting because I'm on the far end of this thing. You're 00:40:21.190 --> 00:40:24.756 starting your career, I'm ending mine is I consider what I do with the 00:40:24.789 --> 00:40:30.467 film school from company, Senior citizen mischief, Yes, I'm playing around 00:40:30.500 --> 00:40:34.796 , you know, and so we did and he said, what do you want to call it? And I 00:40:34.829 --> 00:40:38.997 , there was a song from the twenties called Running Wild and I liked the 00:40:39.030 --> 00:40:42.347 song and so I said, what do you call it? Running Wild films? And the next 00:40:42.380 --> 00:40:46.867 thing I knew he had cards with the song and he's putting up a website and 00:40:46.900 --> 00:40:50.166 then he was, he said, we're gonna make a feature and we're gonna make it 00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:56.097 for $5000. And he did, Well man, we raised enough money. The biggest 00:40:56.130 --> 00:41:01.387 amount of money we raised was $250,000 for the Durant film. And then he 00:41:01.420 --> 00:41:07.247 had a second follow the Don Bolles story, which you know, is a story that 00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:10.497 needs to be told and there's a good script for it. And he tried to raise 00:41:10.530 --> 00:41:14.077 money and couldn't. And then his grandfather lived in Mississippi 00:41:14.110 --> 00:41:19.347 Brookhaven and so his grandfather gave him like $30,000 that he could 00:41:19.380 --> 00:41:22.557 shoot something in Mississippi with and with that he's been getting 00:41:22.590 --> 00:41:28.836 support ever since. They're so now we're based both in Arizona and 00:41:28.869 --> 00:41:33.206 Mississippi and he's talking about maybe doing getting Philadelphia 00:41:33.239 --> 00:41:38.217 involved too. So um talking about making regional films, films that are 00:41:38.250 --> 00:41:43.157 about specific area that could only happen in a specific area. And so this 00:41:43.190 --> 00:41:46.756 is how he's moved, that's the direction he's moved into. Uh there's a 00:41:46.789 --> 00:41:50.747 website, you can see all a list of stuff if you look for running wild 00:41:50.780 --> 00:41:53.276 films 00:41:53.309 --> 00:41:58.497 and is Mississippi one of the states that it gives tax breaks. So I mean 00:41:58.530 --> 00:42:06.296 Arizona needs to do this. Um They used to write and for the last maybe 20 00:42:06.329 --> 00:42:10.217 years the legislature has not given those tax breaks stuff. And so films 00:42:10.250 --> 00:42:15.166 are all going to Mississippi, they're going to new Mexico. 00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:21.887 Yeah, yeah. And some were born there some of the Junior Triple Horn. She 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:25.336 was in a couple of times chris films. She lives there and was born to her 00:42:25.369 --> 00:42:30.577 husband as a producer in Mississippi. And so um statewide things are 00:42:30.610 --> 00:42:35.037 happening as well. But as I said, I live here. So he tells me these things 00:42:35.070 --> 00:42:39.836 I visit from time to time, but I don't stay long, you know, and he's got 00:42:39.869 --> 00:42:44.117 he's got about five of his westerns that are being done there and he did 00:42:44.150 --> 00:42:49.117 one just recently called Blood Country and he got the entire, there's a 00:42:49.150 --> 00:42:54.066 whole reenactors because it's a civil war story which would cost a fortune 00:42:54.099 --> 00:42:56.836 if you were doing with the Hollywood budgets and they all came and they 00:42:56.869 --> 00:43:01.137 work for free and they battle scenes and everything for free. So he gets a 00:43:01.170 --> 00:43:06.967 lot of support to it that way. Did he do the Durant film So that if you 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:11.807 haven't seen it, is it called Durant? Durant never closes? That's my only 00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:15.876 contribution was the title because he had this long title from a quote 00:43:15.909 --> 00:43:19.267 saying something like The Greatest restaurants 00:43:19.300 --> 00:43:23.597 review and I draw a line through it and because the right thing. And I 00:43:23.630 --> 00:43:27.206 said that's where you become the teacher's Durant's never closes. And it's 00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:33.387 shot in Durant's. No it wasn't. It was some of the kitchen they allowed us 00:43:33.420 --> 00:43:38.947 to use at night but we built a set that looked like the right that's what 00:43:38.980 --> 00:43:44.727 I said. One day I went to Durant just to see how it set compared with the 00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:49.206 real thing. Even the pictures were the same. Probably plays a part in the 00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:53.947 don Bolles. Oh yeah. Well they have the explosion the end of the car. And 00:43:53.980 --> 00:43:57.537 that's what got him interested. It was somebody from my, one of my 00:43:57.570 --> 00:44:03.217 playwriting classes, Terry earp. She had written a play about, He played 00:44:03.250 --> 00:44:09.407 about Durant and I passed it on to Travis. He read it and then some some 00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:14.316 women had written two books about Durant. So he got met with them and 00:44:14.349 --> 00:44:19.066 bought the rights for an insignificant amount to like $800. And they said 00:44:19.099 --> 00:44:23.756 fine. And so then he said he was gonna make this picture. And then in 00:44:23.789 --> 00:44:27.637 doing more research he found the Don Bolles story which I think is totally 00:44:27.670 --> 00:44:31.657 fascinating. And so he wanted to follow it up. But we couldn't raise the 00:44:31.690 --> 00:44:35.657 money. And so he still has it. We talked about it the last time we were 00:44:35.690 --> 00:44:40.117 together saying that you know, maybe one day he'll get enough money to do 00:44:40.150 --> 00:44:46.217 that. I saw him two weeks ago and I think he's working well this year. 00:44:46.250 --> 00:44:50.847 Next year is going to work on 12 Westerns in 12 months. Um but it's 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:56.497 finished 15 films thus far. And so that's running why it keeps going. My 00:44:56.530 --> 00:45:03.316 name keeps getting attached but don't be too old. So so looking at A. S. U. 00:45:03.349 --> 00:45:07.876 And your experience at A. S. U. What what you've talked about these 00:45:07.909 --> 00:45:11.097 wonderful experiences you've had. Were there some challenges where of 00:45:11.130 --> 00:45:14.066 course there were challenges in there. At one point. One of the things I 00:45:14.099 --> 00:45:19.296 really tried to do was make native americans more visible on our stages 00:45:19.329 --> 00:45:23.956 and we gotta play that was written by an anglo. But it had been really 00:45:23.989 --> 00:45:28.977 praised by the native american community. And I think the greatest effort 00:45:29.010 --> 00:45:32.896 I made to get a player on stage and that was the main Herberger theater 00:45:32.929 --> 00:45:37.747 was to do that to get that play done. And after I explained that we're 00:45:37.780 --> 00:45:41.157 going to do and I went to every meeting on campus that native americans 00:45:41.190 --> 00:45:48.327 had suddenly there was this backlash and this obstruction to it. And every 00:45:48.360 --> 00:45:54.916 time I we raised that Dean was very supportive Because we raised $83,000 00:45:54.949 --> 00:46:00.026 to get it done with grants from places like Toyota and places like that. I 00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:04.586 even got a native American director who committed himself and then at the 00:46:04.619 --> 00:46:09.197 last minute went off and worked with Ted Turner on that series that they 00:46:09.230 --> 00:46:15.847 had, it was exactly around that time and I hired uh an anglo woman to do 00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:20.097 that because she was the only one I knew to do the costumes And suddenly 00:46:20.130 --> 00:46:22.856 out of the woodwork, this one said, I do costumes and you should hire 00:46:22.889 --> 00:46:26.247 native american and said that you didn't tell me, you know that you did. 00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:31.046 And it got to be so very difficult that one day I was telling a friend 00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:36.876 about it. Um, I got it also from it really. And in the middle of 00:46:36.909 --> 00:46:40.356 conversation I said, you know what? Take me back to department. And I went 00:46:40.389 --> 00:46:42.677 back and I went to the Dean and I said, you know, I'm not going to do this. 00:46:42.710 --> 00:46:46.787 They absolutely don't seem to want me to do it. And so I won't. And so 00:46:46.820 --> 00:46:51.467 with that we stopped and I brought in native american acts when I had the 00:46:51.500 --> 00:46:57.537 budget, you know, to do stuff for them, put them on stage and one player, 00:46:57.570 --> 00:47:03.137 we actually did This preceded the player was going to do And we would, it 00:47:03.170 --> 00:47:06.927 was difficult because again, a lot of them had jobs. So we had to set the 00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:11.666 rehearsals 11 at night to one in the morning because they weren't, but I 00:47:11.699 --> 00:47:16.407 was really, to me still they're underrepresented on stage. And that was 00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:20.447 something I really made an effort for. But they themselves really didn't 00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:24.307 want it. And finally I went over to the indian registry or whatever. And I 00:47:24.340 --> 00:47:27.546 said, you know, we're not doing the plan. He said why I said, you told 00:47:27.579 --> 00:47:31.166 from what the way you acted, you're telling me you don't want it and I'm 00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:35.137 not listening. And so I'm listening now and when the time is right, I 00:47:35.170 --> 00:47:38.666 guess if we had done, you know, and so that was probably the most 00:47:38.699 --> 00:47:43.336 difficult obstacle I had. Yeah, very because it was about two years of 00:47:43.369 --> 00:47:48.847 work, you know, doing trying to get it done. And it just never came to me 00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:54.247 and any other insights about a. S you during your time there since you've 00:47:54.280 --> 00:47:59.657 left. Um I frequently, well during that time there because now I think 00:47:59.690 --> 00:48:05.787 about other things. Um I really always felt that our theater spaces, we 00:48:05.820 --> 00:48:11.447 have the main hamburger and we have like cm and stuff highly under used um 00:48:11.480 --> 00:48:16.956 simply because at 1.1 of the chairs said maybe we could do things midnight. 00:48:16.989 --> 00:48:22.146 And I said yes. And I put I directed a play that we did at midnight 00:48:22.179 --> 00:48:25.767 because that's kind of fun to get those kind of audience coming. You could 00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:29.606 do very experimental work. And I also don't think enough experimental work 00:48:29.639 --> 00:48:34.827 is done, we follow the traditions. Um it is my opinion that and not just 00:48:34.860 --> 00:48:41.086 issue, but most universities in terms of theater should be the leader of 00:48:41.119 --> 00:48:44.586 what's going on. But you actually find people like Sondheim and broadway 00:48:44.619 --> 00:48:48.137 leading and we're falling, we're trying to replicate broadway which is a 00:48:48.170 --> 00:48:53.816 commercial entity. You see what I'm saying here, careers are not at stake. 00:48:53.849 --> 00:48:57.936 And so why should we try to wildest craziest things, you know, because 00:48:57.969 --> 00:49:01.117 through that we might lead to a breakthrough into some new area theater 00:49:01.150 --> 00:49:05.977 that's totally unexplored. And you actually, no, I brought a quote on your 00:49:06.010 --> 00:49:11.896 biography from Orson Welles who says I have always been more interested in 00:49:11.929 --> 00:49:16.376 experiment than accomplishment. And you say that's been a guideline or 00:49:16.409 --> 00:49:21.416 philosophy precisely. And so we're teaching students and I think therefore 00:49:21.449 --> 00:49:24.307 be bold. You know, one of the things I used to say to my students, I said 00:49:24.340 --> 00:49:31.467 , you know, my generation creates this beautiful crystal bold let's say. 00:49:31.500 --> 00:49:35.407 And we had it to your generation and I said their businesses to drop it on 00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:40.727 the ground, let it break in a million pieces and then rebuild it and then 00:49:40.760 --> 00:49:43.586 when they finished and it's perfect pass it to the next generation and 00:49:43.619 --> 00:49:47.697 their business is to do it again. Same thing. Break it again, because 00:49:47.730 --> 00:49:52.657 that's the life of theater, life of art in general in life, that's my 00:49:52.690 --> 00:49:56.856 point of view. You did give us a few other quotes that have been guiding 00:49:56.889 --> 00:50:03.697 your philosophy and I just want to share maybe to joseph Conrad's quote my 00:50:03.730 --> 00:50:09.186 theory is that literature is essential to society in the way that dreams 00:50:09.219 --> 00:50:13.977 are essential to our lives. Yeah. Well, the reason I like that quote is 00:50:14.010 --> 00:50:19.986 because to me it's true. Um when I'm going to I'm going crazy because of 00:50:20.019 --> 00:50:25.927 something in my life, I sit down and I can reshape it where I can control 00:50:25.960 --> 00:50:29.316 it just in literature and fiction we call it, but that's what I do 00:50:29.349 --> 00:50:34.017 sometimes, you know, we all do. And also it takes me into a world I lived 00:50:34.050 --> 00:50:39.907 on an island that's exactly the size of Tempe 13 by seven and if I didn't 00:50:39.940 --> 00:50:44.376 read I wouldn't know there was a whole world out there that's to be 00:50:44.409 --> 00:50:48.816 explored, that's to be enjoyed, that, you know, is adventurous, that it's 00:50:48.849 --> 00:50:54.376 different, that it's full of sparks of all kinds And so that's why I like 00:50:54.409 --> 00:50:59.276 that. Just one more quote from Somerset mom to construct a habit of 00:50:59.309 --> 00:51:05.706 reading is to construct for yourself a refuge from almost all miseries of 00:51:05.739 --> 00:51:10.836 life. Kind of what you just said. But because it's my mom wanted it's like 00:51:10.869 --> 00:51:15.477 drinking, you know, you go in the room and um and you drink because you 00:51:15.510 --> 00:51:20.166 want to live the world Get away from the world. Mom's own room. His 00:51:20.199 --> 00:51:24.706 writing room had no windows because he said I am in there, not to look out 00:51:24.739 --> 00:51:30.646 but to look in and so that was what he did. You know? Yeah, well thank you. 00:51:30.679 --> 00:51:35.807 Gus I know that. Um I mean what strikes me so much about your career at A. 00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:39.856 S. U. I mean following it all the way through and your your time before 00:51:39.889 --> 00:51:44.747 that in new york and your time now you're an inspiration largely because 00:51:44.780 --> 00:51:50.477 you follow your passion one of the chairs. So you know, you encouraged 00:51:50.510 --> 00:51:54.666 that. You supported all the things I did and you were really an 00:51:54.699 --> 00:52:00.037 inspiration to it because I think that our students need to know it's okay 00:52:00.070 --> 00:52:04.117 to follow your passion, but it's not about making money or other things 00:52:04.150 --> 00:52:08.456 like that. Yeah. And that's the whole thing that we tried to tell you fail 00:52:08.489 --> 00:52:12.467 , you get up, you dust yourself off and try again. Friends stare another 00:52:12.500 --> 00:52:15.316 court. 00:52:15.349 --> 00:52:18.967 So I do have a philosophical question I'd like to ask you. Um less 00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:23.617 philosophical than practical actually. So if you if if a student were to 00:52:23.650 --> 00:52:28.356 come to you and say they want a life in theater or film, what advice would 00:52:28.389 --> 00:52:33.887 you give them theater or film or tv or all three. Okay. I would say first 00:52:33.920 --> 00:52:38.387 of all embrace whichever one you want, all of them together because actors 00:52:38.420 --> 00:52:44.117 and directors and writers make the cross over back and forth. Uh The only 00:52:44.150 --> 00:52:48.546 thing I would say is I just, I I used to say this in class, I said pick a 00:52:48.579 --> 00:52:55.387 profession that um you would do for free because it means you really love 00:52:55.420 --> 00:52:58.646 it, you're not in it because it's gonna make you famous and you're not in 00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:03.456 it because um you're gonna make a lot of money. Travis is doing that, he's 00:53:03.489 --> 00:53:07.126 making these movies. Last time I spoke to him I was looking at a budget 00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:10.376 and said you've got to put a bigger amount for yourself as a director 00:53:10.409 --> 00:53:16.347 because he lives just for film. And that to me is the happiest thing is 00:53:16.380 --> 00:53:21.307 when you do work that you love, I used to really enjoy going to the class 00:53:21.340 --> 00:53:25.756 , I'm in new york and I'm looking at a DVD store and say, oh, the class 00:53:25.789 --> 00:53:29.206 would love this, the class would love this, and now I have to tell myself 00:53:29.239 --> 00:53:33.217 when I see things you don't teach anymore. So, you know, like this, that 00:53:33.250 --> 00:53:36.876 to me is the happiest thing you can do because you have to live with 00:53:36.909 --> 00:53:41.967 whatever it is you do your job eight hours a day and if you have no 00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:46.606 enthusiasm for it, if you're not up and having a lot of fun with it, then 00:53:46.639 --> 00:53:50.467 it's like pushing a rock up a hill and I know a lot of people who live 00:53:50.500 --> 00:53:54.026 that kind of life, you got friends that I went to school with and they 00:53:54.059 --> 00:53:58.577 would boast of how much money I'm making and how much time off they have 00:53:58.610 --> 00:54:02.236 and I'm thinking, well, you know, obviously you're not enjoying what you 00:54:02.269 --> 00:54:09.876 do. And my father was a machinist and on the weekends because he works at 00:54:09.909 --> 00:54:14.046 those times. He works six days a week and he was always filthy with oil, 00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:19.017 etcetera. And the weekend on sunday he'd be on the car with some friends 00:54:19.050 --> 00:54:21.296 and my mother would yell at him and she said, that's the only time you 00:54:21.329 --> 00:54:25.517 have to be clean. But not until I became an adult, I realized this was his 00:54:25.550 --> 00:54:29.256 passion. You know, it didn't have to be the arts. Yeah. In the last years 00:54:29.289 --> 00:54:32.956 of his life, he came to visit with me in new york and when I would go to 00:54:32.989 --> 00:54:36.807 work, the superintendent would tell me because they both spoke spanish. He 00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:40.106 would, they would say, you know, your father followed me all through to 00:54:40.139 --> 00:54:44.276 see how we heat the building, how we dispose of the garbage except because 00:54:44.309 --> 00:54:48.206 that was his passion. You know, And so I always just encourage people 00:54:48.239 --> 00:54:53.086 philosophically and practically to follow whatever it is your passion is. 00:54:53.119 --> 00:54:57.296 And the way I think you've identified it is if you do it for free. Yeah. 00:54:57.329 --> 00:55:00.077 And I said, you know, somebody will pay you for it. I told them in 00:55:00.110 --> 00:55:04.186 classes. I don't tell, you know Crow, but I would teach this class for 00:55:04.219 --> 00:55:07.997 free because I was talking that stuff and my friends, we've got bored with 00:55:08.030 --> 00:55:12.236 me now people pay me, it's really amazing to have a good time. I'm like, 00:55:12.269 --> 00:55:16.796 wow. Yeah, don't tell Crow, because it's not going to teach them for free. 00:55:16.829 --> 00:55:22.247 Yeah. In a world that's so much about money, that is so wonderful to hear. 00:55:22.280 --> 00:55:26.557 And I think it's an inspiration for all of us to to really listen and pay 00:55:26.590 --> 00:55:29.736 attention to what we love. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, as I said, it's it's 00:55:29.769 --> 00:55:35.006 something I love film. So you see, you've been to the house. Yes. 00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:38.477 And students even asked me now and I said, well, now that I'm retired, I 00:55:38.510 --> 00:55:43.447 create my own film festival at home because I pulled stuff out and showed 00:55:43.480 --> 00:55:46.867 them to myself, you know, my wife is asleep, but I'm watching it and I'm 00:55:46.900 --> 00:55:51.827 like, well, so I could talk to Travis and somebody about it. Well, once 00:55:51.860 --> 00:55:56.936 again, it's really an inspiration to talk to you. Um really inspires us to 00:55:56.969 --> 00:56:03.477 follow our passion. Gus thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much for um 00:56:03.510 --> 00:56:10.807 this interview and um we look forward to more writing and more inspiration. 00:56:10.840 --> 00:56:14.637 I'm gonna try. That's all I can promise is that I will try. Thank you. 00:56:14.670 --> 00:56:16.670 Thankyou