today is november 14th 2019. And we're conducting an interview for the
Arizona State University retirements Association video history project.
We're located today in the A. S. You community service building. My name
is Bonnie Eckerd. I'm professor emeritus of theater from the school of
film dancing theater. The technical support staff today include john
McIntosh on camera, roger carter audio dave Schatz lee interview crew, uh
linda Vance coy director and Barry McNeill chair of the video history
project. So I'm very pleased to interview my friend and colleague Gus
Edwards. Please introduce yourself stating your name and your position at
A. S. U. When you retired, my name is Gus Edwards, formerly Augustus
Edwards, but
nobody calls me that anymore. I'm glad you said friend as well as
colleague and I was full professor when I left in theater, dance and film
teaching, concentrating primarily on film, but also on ethnic studies for
performers and aspiring actors of color. So tell us a little bit about
your early life, Where were you born, where you, where were you were
brought up? And how did you get to new york city? I was born on a small
island called Antigua and that it was at the time british west Indies B. W.
I. And when I was six, my my parents brought me to ST thomas, I lived in
ST thomas until I was 19. During that time I saw a lot of films, read a
lot of books and met met several authors um particularly one man who
actually wrote paperback books and I used to work in a restaurant and he
told me what a wonderful life it was. And I thought that's the life I want
, he also had a very attractive wife and he said, you know, he vacationed
maybe two months out of the year and I thought that's the life I want, I
want to be a writer, I want to write paperbacks and I want to live like
this guy. And then several people came down to make movies. Among them was
a film called Our Virgin Islands and Sidney poitier was one of the stars
of that and john cassavetes and I worked for a local radio station so that
I got to talk to both of them and certainly had a similar background to
mind. He came out of Jamaica, moved to new york and then he made it as a
film actor and we talked a lot about that and he said, you know, the thing
to do is move to new york. And so in 59, when I graduated from high school
, that's what I did. So tell me about new york, tell me about your
experience and arriving in new york, I had acted in a lot of plays in
school and moments after arriving or seeing other actors, I realized I
knew nothing about acting. And so I started taking classes with Stella
Adler and then uh I worked with Bill Hickey from Herbert, Berghof studios
and then I started auditioning and every audition, I went to the one thing
that told me was wrong was my accent. And so acting in theater, getting
professional work is hard for anyone. And so what happened was the younger
aspiring actor like myself, they started what they called the off off
broadway movement and that is where you acted for free in churches, in
lofts, you acted um wherever storefronts anyone would um had a stage or
space that you can act in. He had made no money with this. Most of the
time they admission was by donation. And then I worked in restaurants and
so I could eat food and I could save, I could continue acting and so the
cafe La Mama, if you know what that one is. I acted in several places at
once played christ and one of the places because these were experimental
things, you know like that and during that time I started to write place,
I'd rather a lot and I get my first ambition as I said, was to be a writer
, second was to be an actor. I did like movies a lot. So I really went to
a lot of movies during that time. And finally I thought, you know, I'd
like to know how movies are made. So I went to film school as well. And so
that was pretty much you know in capsule the small um area I lived in and
worked in. So tell me about your education because you went to film school
but you're also self educated, more or less because I read a lot and at a
certain point I was really scattered about what I was reading and I lived
across Central Park, not far from the Metropolitan Museum. And so I would
go over there during the summer when I had time off for when I was between
jobs and I would go into various rooms and look at you know, very colonial
rooms for instance, I would look at that and I got curious about how they
lived and so there was, there were bookstores that Uh so remained at books
at usually 10 cents per because at that point I was making about $45 a
week and just about to pay rent, eat food and write the trains. And so I
would do that then I'd read one book after another in terms of fiction. I
just read across the board in an unorganized way. I've gone to a catholic
school in ST thomas and so all the stuff that we'd read had been things
like God is my co pilot and religious books, the confessions of saint
Augustine, but I never read the contemporaries Hemingway Fitzgerald john
dos passos, you know that sort of thing. And so I started reading one
after another and that was sort of how I educated myself up to that point.
And then as luck would have it, I started reading Somerset mom and mom
wrote across the board, he wrote a book called uh the 10 best novels. And
so that got me to reading flaubert balzac dickens and several others have
some of the Russians as well. And then he mom was a great collector of art.
Um and there's a book called purely for my Pleasure, which is his artwork.
And so looking at his various artwork and a lot of cases he knew the
artist personally like Picasso, he bought him lunch at Picasso, gave him a
painting, you know, And so I got what makes Picasso so interesting. And so
I'd get again from that bookstore, I had stacks of these books that you
could never return to throw him out, you know, but I read about you know
art and then he wrote about Spinoza and people like that. He has a whole
book on philosophy. And so I read read that and then he wrote so many
short stories about the South seas about his life as a spy. He was a spy
during the First World War. And he wrote to my Mind, the best spy book
ever written called Action and the british agent. And it's Hitchcock I
think made two films out of that one called confidential Agent or Secret
Agent, you know like that. And so reading more. Um he also wrote about
thomas hardy for instance who he knew and wrote a novel that was not too
far away from hardy life, which was called cakes and ale. And so in
reading more, my really got a white spectrum um he wrote a lot about the
Second World War, about Hitler particularly. Um and so with that I could,
you know, get that aspect of my education sort of filled up a little bit
because there's major gaps and then from theater, you know, read
stanislavsky, you read Chekhov, you know, you do that kind of thing on
that end of it. And so it was, it took about seven years, you know, of
accumulating all of this knowledge, particularly the knowledge about film
, Hollywood and its history, the life of stars uh in film, the life of
directors. And so that was what I did while I lived in new york. Uh and
then I was still trying to be an actor, I turned around and I decided that
I wanted to write plays and so I wrote a whole series of short plays, many
of which were done in the very same church, front storefront theaters that
I had acted in and somewhere along the way I thought to myself, you know,
you've got to stop this because you're not making a living and I'm still
waiting tables, you know, that sort of thing. And I wrote a full length
play and I was working for Skitch Henderson, you know, he was, yeah, they
conducted the Tonight Show orchestra and he had a restaurant and so as
we're waiting tables then, you know, I always think everything in my life
has been luck and happenstance. And so what happened was um there was this
fellow came in, I didn't know anything about him, but he, he was an anglo
man who came in with several african american young african american
people. And one night he came into the restaurant and they all ate and
that by station and he was embarrassed because he forgot his wallet. And
he even offered to let them stay there while he goes, go home and get his
wallet. And I said don't worry about it, Jenna come whenever you're, you
know, feel comfortable and you can pay it. And he was so grateful for that
that we became friends and we talked, it turned out he was a minister in
Harlem. And so we, we got friendly enough and if you live in new york and
you're of a certain age and you're waiting tables, it means that you're
aspiring to do something else. And so at one point he said to me, what do
you do? And I said, you know, I'm trying to be a writer. And he said um he
asked later, when he knew me better, he said, um can I see something
you've written? And um I did something, I never do you ever do. I actually
gave him this play that I had written called the offering and after he
read it, he said, he told me that he was a friend of Douglas Turner Ward,
who was the artistic director of the negro ensemble company. Uh the negro
ensemble company at that time was probably the best known african american
theater in the world. And so I said really? And he said yes, I'm on the
board advisory board. And so I said sure he took the plate to Doug. And
about six months later I remember it was right after christmas he said to
me, you ought to call Doug about your play. And I was really very shy
about being shy about anything like that. I said, well maybe he didn't get
a chance to read it. So finally he said, look, he said I had dinner with
him and his wife and all he talked about was your play. And I said really
? And so he said you should call him. And again I was reticent and I said
what he will call me when he's ready. And so he said, well I'll arrange
for both of you to meet, we'll go down, we'll see one of the players, I'll
ask him to have a drink with us after. So he did. And so Doug came in and
he didn't tell him I guess. And Doug said, oh my God, he said, I knew that
was I was, it was a setup. That's what Doug said. And he met me and he
told me effectively what Harold leads was a minister's name had said, he
said, you know, I really like you play my problem is I'm committed for
three years, so I don't want to commit now until I have space for it. So I
said fine, you know, and I left it at that. And then in the interim, three
years, every time I wrote a play, I would put an envelope and I would take
it down to the theater and just leave it with with his secretary and leave
quickly. So they didn't catch me. And so one day and working a bar this
time I left daily sketch denison's place. I'm working upon, I get a call
and ask for Gus Edwards and I said yes talking and the secretary said,
this is Doug secretary, we'd like you to come down and um we'd like
because doug would like to do all three plays in one season. I mean that
was amazing, you know, like this. And so in that little flip of a coin, um
I transitioned from waiting tables tending bar into being in quotes, so
called professional playwright,
Jazz, which is another passion of yours. Well, I got a job from PBS and a
man named David Luxton called me and I don't remember somebody recommended
me. And he said that he was, he was a british man. He said he was tired of
seeing british television shows on american tv because PBS does a lot did
a lot of those things. And he said, I'd like to do something that's
Indigenously american. And he said to me, Jazz and the Hollywood film
industry are the two basic american things. And so he had already done a
thing called the Tales of Hollywood hills from Scott Fitzgerald stories.
And then he said he told me he wanted to do something on Buddy Bolden and
I had never heard of him and he said he's the man who is credited with
inventing jazz as it were. Um And I said to him, I said you know, I might
know something about calypso because I'm from the islands, but I don't
know anything about jazz. And I guess he liked my candle because he said
would would you be willing to study something to think about writing the
script? And I said sure. And so he paid PBS paid for me to spend a month
in new Orleans. Um Duke University rehearsing, I mean researching jazz in
general, but even actually holding onto the papers that wrote things about
body building and they were disintegrating in my hand, you know, while I
was reading them and um I got really involved with that and some of the
places that he went to. But Embolden is considered what they call the
father of jazz because he was the first to improvise off of an established
melody line and then perhaps come back to it every so often using it as a
point of reference. And so there are no recordings of him. They're not
even sure of his dates. Some say, Um, for others says 1864 that he lived.
And he had about five years where he was the best known musician. And the
only way to really know about him is in the 1930s. Around that 38, uh, the
Smithsonian and the Library of Congress sent out investigators to search
out the roots of jazz. And they talk to people like jelly, roll morton,
they talked to louis armstrong people like that. And they all said, well
when I first heard it was Buddy Bolden. By that time Bolden was dead At
least 12 or 13 years. He was institutionalized. He went crazy and he was
institutionalized for the last 35 years of his life. And so nobody knows
that much. Um there's books called, you know the legend of Buddy Bolden,
etc. But the music, he was the one who started jazz after I wrote the
screenplay and the jazz sounded very, very different from what we think of
as jazz. It was, it was more like marching music like that. And one of the
things, one of the best days I ever had was I spent when it's really a
week with Dick Hyman and he did all the music for woody Allen movies,
Piano player. And he has one of the best collections of jazz albums
discography over 50,000 and he put together, I have to tape at home a
thing called I call it jazz transition because I wanted at the end of the
film that while the end credits are coming up, we're showing black and
white photos. Starting with Buddy Bolden and moving to Sidney Bechet and
then moving all the way up to Winter Marcellus. And as that happens you
hear the music change, change, change change because I wanted the audience
not to know that bolden with this track where he played a cornett with the
cornett led to Miles Davis led to Marcellus etcetera. And the music would
change each time we changed the still photographs. So the film never got
done because he died that the producer David locks locks and died and a
new person came in took over and just had their own agenda. And I the
rights revert back to me. I own them now because but it took 25 years
before I could get them back. I didn't ask for them, but they own it for
that amount of time for what they paid me. They paid me fully for writing
the screenplay and stuff. So I again, that's where you get educated that
somebody pays you for.
That was my buddy bolden thing. And around this time you start teaching as
well. Well what happened was, you know, with playwriting as I said about
the theater, you can make a killing but you can't make a living. And so I
was doing things like I was on committees. I was a judge for the Obie
awards, I was doing anything that would make money because when you play
goes off the stage, you have no money coming in, no royalties really. And
so I was looking for residencies and um this residency came and I didn't
even think I could qualify, I didn't have that many places, you know, in
my background. Uh it was from A S. U. And so I I got, you know, I sent out
the the form, I filled it out anyway sent it out and then I got a call
from Billy Jenkins who was the chair of the department at the time and he
was coming to new york and he said he wanted to meet me. And so we met and
we didn't talk about theater at all. We talked about our enthusiasm for
mystery novels and he was a big fan and so he said, would you come out and
interview? And I said absolutely. And I came out and I interviewed and
they asked me to come in for two years and I did well one year and then
they extended it to two years. And so I came in and that's what I was
telling you earlier that I wrote a play about Somerset Maugham because,
you know, he's my favorite author and his quotes, my invisible mentor. And
so then I went back to new york and so I was ready to do the circuit of
residencies and I did residency and Iona College in New rochelle and then
bloomfield College in bloomfield New Jersey. And in the meantime I was
still, I was doing things like being on the board of the new york council
for the Arts and the National Endowment and trying to put a living
together and then one day will then right, who was then chair of the
theater department came into new york, we had lunch and she wanted to know
if I wanted to be the playwright in residence again. And I said, no, I've
done that here. And she left and about a week later she called and she
said, we have a spot open if you'd like to be a faculty member where I
could bring you in as associate professor and you teach intro to theater,
but you also work um, some area with cultural cultural diversity. They
want to just make room and a comfortable space for actors of color,
aspiring actors of color to feel comfortable within the context of what
they were teaching in the department. Prior to that, all teaching and
theater thought, um you know, the classics, the Greeks, Tennessee Williams
and stuff. But I think maybe the only played by people of color that they
thought was a raisin in the sun. And so my title was Director of
multiethnic theater and so any ethnic actor, we had where I go and meet
them and I'd find material coming from their own background because I
really believe in the philosophy when you're teaching acting anyway that
if you can't play your own grandfather, you can't play your own mom, you
won't be able to play anybody else. Yes sir and sir, um we would work from
that premise and I have wonderful experience with several um you know,
young people. There was one young fellow and I will never forget him. His
name was Wayne Cody, I remember his name, he was native american and he
was going, he was in the honest college and he took some of my classes and
he needed to do uh honest thesis. This was the time when dances with
wolves came out and we were talking about that film and he wondered what
he should do. And I said, you know, we've heard everybody else's opinion
about this film and they were praising how sympathetic and insightful it
was about native americans. So I said, but we haven't heard the native
american point of view. So maybe you should do that. He was from the white
water tribe. And so he started with handwritten things about asking them
questions later he printed a form And when he was finished, he had over
2000 people that he had interviewed. And um it's one of those things where
they said when you become a teacher by your students, you're taught that
absolutely opened my eyes to so much. I mean this thing was so thick. I
remember he said to me did I do the assignment, said that you've gone so
far beyond the assignment, that it's amazing, you know, like this and that
commentary were really contrary to all the other opinions that they had,
you know, and so uh that was one of the things that was so rewarding about
working with these students. You see, I had a good time doing that,
mentoring is a major part of your contribution. That was I think the
contributor to me as well. I remember there's another young fellow that I
would meet even in the summer when we were off because we talked about
film genres and sub genres and I introduced him to the idea of film Noah,
um you know, that's the dark side films that explored the dark side of the
human psyche. And so I told him that it came from the french novel Noah
and he got so entered, we would meet every summer um in some restaurant
once a week for lunch because he tells me all this Reading, his reading
transcended mine again because he was passionate about his young and he's
passionate and it's exciting and so I'm still friends with a lot of these
guys or women to, there were some women that um there was one, she gave me
, she had a she had a play and it was really not very well plotted, but
she could, I could see she had a great sense of humor. So I had her do
monologues and they were very funny. They got produced in new york in an
off off broadway situation. And she even got an offer from NBC for to
write one of soaps and she, she couldn't leave her family. She said
because she would have to live in new york. But those were some of the
signal successes. You know that I felt, you know, that occurred that I I
really don't think yeah, I think it would've been successively hadn't met
me. But luckily they did and therefore I will take the credit for that. I
never passed your office when there wasn't a student in there. Well what I
did always, I said to them, I said, look, you know the doors are wide open
, come on and talk to me about whatever you want to talk about, I can't
solve your problems, They don't bring me problems. But if you see a movie
that you like, come on, we'll talk about it. You said play that you like
come on and talk about a new story that you like. That could be turned
into something else. I always said to them that I was the first step
person. I said, Meryl Streep had to somebody had to tell her go up and
make a fool of yourself before you get good. You know, and the same thing
with writing. I'd say you're here to write badly because unless you write
badly, you're never going to write, Well, I want to take away that onus of
, oh my God, I have to make this terrific. I have to make this specialist
to just write the goddamn thing and then we'll work on it, we'll make it
good if it's not good. And all this time you were writing and you
published a lot of books. Well, what happened was playwrighting became a
secondary thing cause I really loved being in the classroom. I mean, I
hadn't planned on it and I didn't know how it happened, but I really
enjoyed that. I enjoyed talking to the students in interacting with them.
And one of the things was, for instance, in my workshop, I had them doing
monologues and to give them examples. I would write a monologue and said,
do something like this. And I got enough that I put together and made an
evening of theater called Lifetimes on the streets because it was all
street people. And so it got done in new york and all of that. So that's
how the writing came. And then at a certain point, I am a writer that's
what I would be doing as a living or I was attempting. And so writing just
as natural, you know, to sit down and write something every day and
ultimately just send it out and hope somebody would be interested enough
to publish it. And so that during that period, I did get About seven or 8
books published. Yeah. And your plays. I mean my impression with your
plays is um you really write fascinating characters that are very complex
and you don't judge them. You kind of leave it to the audience or to the
reader to use the term judge because that's what you liked about the place.
He said you never pontificate or tell people, I don't know how that can
do things accidental, you know? Um It's from the influences of all the
playwrights I read and that we had that would all be out here. And so I
met him and I um I really loved the work of Harold pinter. There was a
point there were one critic even said pinter comes to Harlem was one of my
players because I guess the style was so similar that yeah and I told
people said what you're aping Harold pinter and I said well not really. Um
I'll get my you know people see my own voice because it's very different
than it is, but just influenced by him, you know? But the thing I'd like
to say about all this is S. U. And the department particularly it was so
so supportive of just about everything I do did or asked about doing that.
It was wonderful. I mean I can't think of any time I was ever refused
anything that I asked for. You know, and I tried not to ask for too much
because you know, outstay your welcome doing that. But I even got that
little theater space that I said, you know, I wanted that we called prism
, you know the prismatic colors of the spectrum. Um I got that and as I
said, I got so much encouragement from both my faculty, you know and
colleagues as well as the students that now that I'm retired, several
friends, you know, you you know, we have dinner together all the time and
several of the students, the one that we started, I started that film
company with that's running wild, you know, I was a student, so I want to
read a quote that I found about writing plays you write historically in
film and on stage African americans have been virtually invisible. Even
the big roles African american actors obtained were so stereotyped that we
didn't recognize ourselves and subsequently became ashamed of ourselves.
The force that impelled not just myself, but many african americans to
stick it out was a determination to change those stereotypes, to give
ourselves dimension by writing worthwhile roles that portrayed african
americans honestly, can you reflect on that? Well, first I'll tell you
what they're saying somewhat, it's true because I didn't tell my parents
for instance that I was coming to America in order to involve myself in
theater and film because the images that they saw were these steppin
fetchit type characters or in the charlie Chaplin film Birmingham was
always afraid of ghosts to me and they played it for laughs, but that was
all that you saw was where those kind of characters and so I remember one
time I said something to my mom about maybe interest being interested in
film and there was a guy in the island named Mongo Niles and he had, he
had been in one film, a film will return here with called an affair in
Trinidad and and he played a bongo playing character, had no lines or
anything but um she was so ashamed of that, she said you're gonna wind up
like Mongo nas. And I remember getting mad over that. And so well there
was a departure and he was getting work that really was as they say here
it is quote dimensional, but he was the only one, you know? And so it
evolved Douglas Stone award. That's the reason he started the negro
ensemble theater because he said he wanted to break the stereotypes and so
that's what he's looking for different playwrights and stuff himself
included who could write place coming out of the community. There used to
be a phrase called crossover appeal. And so if you wrote an african
american play, producer said does it have crossover appeal? And that meant
will anglo whites see it and appreciate it. And we started thinking well
we make the leap to appreciate their work. I never thought Streetcar named
Desire was a bad player, I wanted to know more about the characters in new
Orleans especially polish backgrounds etcetera. And so we thought why
don't they try to learn from us as well because the exchange could happen.
And that was why the negro ensemble occurred. And after a while we began
to see that in the audience because sometimes there would be a joke that
would be made and all the black people in the theater would laugh and the
white people say what was that and the black people tell them. And
subsequently you had that exchange. So what he's saying here in that quote
who was who was the quote that I said it? I said oh my God
see that's why you agree with
memory. Yeah.
Yeah. Anyway I'm glad. I said it sounds good. I know it sounds very good.
So let me talk about film because you were teaching playwriting. You were
doing the multi ethnic theater, you were doing a lot of things and then
film kind of you came back to it in your teaching. Talk about that and
then talk about S. U. N. Film because I think those two came together.
Well what happened was there was there were a couple of teachers in the
teaching film and I would sit and talk with him at lunch and stuff because
I had nobody else to talk film to colleagues and someone left and when he
was asked who should replace him he went on vacation and extended amount
of time. He said Gus and the chair Lynn against said, she called me and
said, you know anything about film And I said yes, I've been studying film
all my life and I probably know more about film than I do about theater.
And so she let me teach that class and then somebody else went. And as
people left I wound up taking uh, you know, the film classes and I had
taught theater for 15 years. So it was a nice change for me. And the nice
thing about film is that you with theater, when you speak of something,
you have to, I always said the ideal way to teach theater is I need a core
of about seven actors. So that I can say this is how it should be and then
show it. But with film you can, you can take a clip and you can show you
said this is what I'm talking about, that is what I'm talking about
etcetera. And so it was fun to do that. And I, I enjoy teaching aspects of
film that I didn't think a lot of people knew As I said, two genres, you
know, musicals that make a musical, so interesting or different. Um, no,
or or westerns. You know, one of the things I loved about westerns is that
westerns cover the entire spectrum of genres because you have musical,
western, horror, western, science fiction, western, mystery western, you
name it, there's a western that exists in that specific genre. And the
western is the only really american genre developed american genre. It
started because of the yet the settling of the west. And so that was kind
of fun for me to do. Um so much so that I used to teach summer classes and
winter classes because it became particularly the summer and winter
classes. They were kind of like Gus is little film club 30 or so students
and if it was early enough I bring coffee they'd bring muffins and stuff.
And we talked about the film then we put it up and then when we're
finished we talked about it and I would ask questions and again in doing
that I learned so much from them because that point of view, nobody took
it seriously. Were interesting to hear. I remember I showed a Russian film
that is one take one long camera take that lasts two hours. And we talked
about that. And I remember one young lady afterwards I said well what was
your experience? But she's and she said something that no credit card seen
the films had said, I haven't thought of, she said it was taking like
taking a long deep breath and exhaling very slowly for two hours and it
was really very apt description, the best description of the film. And
then we talked about the subtext of the film, you know, we looked at in my
Bergman's films, I particularly like foreign films, so we looked at films
from china japan anywhere and I know it's a fantasy, but in my wildest
dream, I always think if we understand each other culturally it could lead
to harmony on the planet, possibly piece like that. But as I said, it's a
fantasy and a wild dream, but nevertheless I have to underscore what I'm
teaching with something that I think is serve the greater good like that.
So that was the film thing. And then somewhere along the way we had, I had
a small budget and
you know, I started showing or talking about showing people how to make
films because I got inquiries from so many students about that. And over
in the art department, there was a man named lulu Dahlquist and he made
animated films and so I asked if we could pay him a certain amount to come
over and teach because the technical aspect is pretty much the same. Um
some of that teach that, and so with that, that was the beginning and that
class lasted for about eight or 10 years. And then more and more students
began to inquire about a film school here. And um I had no means of doing
it, but I talked to the the Deans and they all were very interested in it.
And at one point we even thought we'd just come up with a certificate for
the film class because it's quite a lot of money that I couldn't ask
anyone to, you know, involved in healthcare and I wasn't yet an
administrator of any kind. And then somewhere along the way, um, President
Crow was the one who I guess he heard this, you know, people saying they
want to film school and he put up the money for it, you know, And from
there, the film school was built and built and built until it's one of the
best. It's still being built and it still is evolving and changing. But I
think you were really in on the grassroots of well helping to get some of
that together. But even that I really wasn't qualified, although I've
written screenplays that have been produced, I wasn't really qualified,
you know, in the sense to teach any aspect of the film class. Um, you know
, the technical stuff, I don't know at all. I can't even program my own
DVD machine. You know, my wife does. And so um, you know, we got, they got
real professionals, people who knew what they were doing and we would talk
all the time and I appreciate that the people I learned from them as well.
So being at issue was an education for me as well as hopefully I
attempted to provoke a thought process that would lead to the educative
process in my students. Could you say more about how the film school has
become so prominent. I don't know how, because I left, just as it really
began to build and it's so in transition. I mean, they're building this
campus in Mesa. I think film is going to go there, but it's not been
announced yet. I mean it's not official. So that's going to be a massive
thing. So right now we're together with film, dance and theater and we
have, we have nice, well not great facilities, but we have okay facilities
, but this will just explode it and it's, it's exploded enrollment wise,
which is, and you know, it is being supported by the administration, but
we're so in flux right now. Like it's, we're right in the middle of it.
It's about to happen. And I haven't seen you since 9 2010, so I don't know
really, except what I read. Um, but I'm not on the inside of it hearing
what they've been doing etcetera. Yeah. And I just retired in, in May. And
just since I retired, it's like totally changing because it's moving off
to the Mesa, um, location and they're building that from the ground up.
And so it will also not just be filmed, but it will be multimedia. It'll
be, you know, digital arts, it'll be, um, coming an interdisciplinary film
approach, which I think will be remarkable.
Yeah,
I think it's going to be, yeah, that's Crow and it's expensive, but if we
come together with it, like with instead of film just being on its own to
come in with, you know, digital arts across the campus
since retiring, you have partnered up to start a film company, talked
about this. Well, that's because one of my former students are, a lot of
them are friends now and they're all pushing late thirties, early forties.
One of my former students, Travis Mills, is Islam. He took several of my
classes and because some of the classes were big at 100 students in him, I
didn't know him. But one night we wound up in a movie theater together and
there were about 08 or 10 people who had, he was in the theater. So, you
know, we saw each other and he came and sat next to me and we watched the
movie and after that we started meeting on a regular basis. By that time
he had taken every class I taught and we'd have lunch and after I retired
, he had taken the film school by that time it had been created and he had
taken the film school classes. And so he came to the house and he said,
you only want to make a shot. He used one of my short stories and he made
in one night, quite a good film short film out of it. And he continued
doing that. And he said, you know, we should start a company. And I said,
why? And he said, so that, you know, it's, it's organized by this time, he
was about 26. And so I said, look, if we're gonna do that, you're gonna do
all the heavy lifting because I'm on the far end of this thing. You're
starting your career, I'm ending mine is I consider what I do with the
film school from company, Senior citizen mischief, Yes, I'm playing around
, you know, and so we did and he said, what do you want to call it? And I
, there was a song from the twenties called Running Wild and I liked the
song and so I said, what do you call it? Running Wild films? And the next
thing I knew he had cards with the song and he's putting up a website and
then he was, he said, we're gonna make a feature and we're gonna make it
for $5000. And he did, Well man, we raised enough money. The biggest
amount of money we raised was $250,000 for the Durant film. And then he
had a second follow the Don Bolles story, which you know, is a story that
needs to be told and there's a good script for it. And he tried to raise
money and couldn't. And then his grandfather lived in Mississippi
Brookhaven and so his grandfather gave him like $30,000 that he could
shoot something in Mississippi with and with that he's been getting
support ever since. They're so now we're based both in Arizona and
Mississippi and he's talking about maybe doing getting Philadelphia
involved too. So um talking about making regional films, films that are
about specific area that could only happen in a specific area. And so this
is how he's moved, that's the direction he's moved into. Uh there's a
website, you can see all a list of stuff if you look for running wild
films
and is Mississippi one of the states that it gives tax breaks. So I mean
Arizona needs to do this. Um They used to write and for the last maybe 20
years the legislature has not given those tax breaks stuff. And so films
are all going to Mississippi, they're going to new Mexico.
Yeah, yeah. And some were born there some of the Junior Triple Horn. She
was in a couple of times chris films. She lives there and was born to her
husband as a producer in Mississippi. And so um statewide things are
happening as well. But as I said, I live here. So he tells me these things
I visit from time to time, but I don't stay long, you know, and he's got
he's got about five of his westerns that are being done there and he did
one just recently called Blood Country and he got the entire, there's a
whole reenactors because it's a civil war story which would cost a fortune
if you were doing with the Hollywood budgets and they all came and they
work for free and they battle scenes and everything for free. So he gets a
lot of support to it that way. Did he do the Durant film So that if you
haven't seen it, is it called Durant? Durant never closes? That's my only
contribution was the title because he had this long title from a quote
saying something like The Greatest restaurants
review and I draw a line through it and because the right thing. And I
said that's where you become the teacher's Durant's never closes. And it's
shot in Durant's. No it wasn't. It was some of the kitchen they allowed us
to use at night but we built a set that looked like the right that's what
I said. One day I went to Durant just to see how it set compared with the
real thing. Even the pictures were the same. Probably plays a part in the
don Bolles. Oh yeah. Well they have the explosion the end of the car. And
that's what got him interested. It was somebody from my, one of my
playwriting classes, Terry earp. She had written a play about, He played
about Durant and I passed it on to Travis. He read it and then some some
women had written two books about Durant. So he got met with them and
bought the rights for an insignificant amount to like $800. And they said
fine. And so then he said he was gonna make this picture. And then in
doing more research he found the Don Bolles story which I think is totally
fascinating. And so he wanted to follow it up. But we couldn't raise the
money. And so he still has it. We talked about it the last time we were
together saying that you know, maybe one day he'll get enough money to do
that. I saw him two weeks ago and I think he's working well this year.
Next year is going to work on 12 Westerns in 12 months. Um but it's
finished 15 films thus far. And so that's running why it keeps going. My
name keeps getting attached but don't be too old. So so looking at A. S. U.
And your experience at A. S. U. What what you've talked about these
wonderful experiences you've had. Were there some challenges where of
course there were challenges in there. At one point. One of the things I
really tried to do was make native americans more visible on our stages
and we gotta play that was written by an anglo. But it had been really
praised by the native american community. And I think the greatest effort
I made to get a player on stage and that was the main Herberger theater
was to do that to get that play done. And after I explained that we're
going to do and I went to every meeting on campus that native americans
had suddenly there was this backlash and this obstruction to it. And every
time I we raised that Dean was very supportive Because we raised $83,000
to get it done with grants from places like Toyota and places like that. I
even got a native American director who committed himself and then at the
last minute went off and worked with Ted Turner on that series that they
had, it was exactly around that time and I hired uh an anglo woman to do
that because she was the only one I knew to do the costumes And suddenly
out of the woodwork, this one said, I do costumes and you should hire
native american and said that you didn't tell me, you know that you did.
And it got to be so very difficult that one day I was telling a friend
about it. Um, I got it also from it really. And in the middle of
conversation I said, you know what? Take me back to department. And I went
back and I went to the Dean and I said, you know, I'm not going to do this.
They absolutely don't seem to want me to do it. And so I won't. And so
with that we stopped and I brought in native american acts when I had the
budget, you know, to do stuff for them, put them on stage and one player,
we actually did This preceded the player was going to do And we would, it
was difficult because again, a lot of them had jobs. So we had to set the
rehearsals 11 at night to one in the morning because they weren't, but I
was really, to me still they're underrepresented on stage. And that was
something I really made an effort for. But they themselves really didn't
want it. And finally I went over to the indian registry or whatever. And I
said, you know, we're not doing the plan. He said why I said, you told
from what the way you acted, you're telling me you don't want it and I'm
not listening. And so I'm listening now and when the time is right, I
guess if we had done, you know, and so that was probably the most
difficult obstacle I had. Yeah, very because it was about two years of
work, you know, doing trying to get it done. And it just never came to me
and any other insights about a. S you during your time there since you've
left. Um I frequently, well during that time there because now I think
about other things. Um I really always felt that our theater spaces, we
have the main hamburger and we have like cm and stuff highly under used um
simply because at 1.1 of the chairs said maybe we could do things midnight.
And I said yes. And I put I directed a play that we did at midnight
because that's kind of fun to get those kind of audience coming. You could
do very experimental work. And I also don't think enough experimental work
is done, we follow the traditions. Um it is my opinion that and not just
issue, but most universities in terms of theater should be the leader of
what's going on. But you actually find people like Sondheim and broadway
leading and we're falling, we're trying to replicate broadway which is a
commercial entity. You see what I'm saying here, careers are not at stake.
And so why should we try to wildest craziest things, you know, because
through that we might lead to a breakthrough into some new area theater
that's totally unexplored. And you actually, no, I brought a quote on your
biography from Orson Welles who says I have always been more interested in
experiment than accomplishment. And you say that's been a guideline or
philosophy precisely. And so we're teaching students and I think therefore
be bold. You know, one of the things I used to say to my students, I said
, you know, my generation creates this beautiful crystal bold let's say.
And we had it to your generation and I said their businesses to drop it on
the ground, let it break in a million pieces and then rebuild it and then
when they finished and it's perfect pass it to the next generation and
their business is to do it again. Same thing. Break it again, because
that's the life of theater, life of art in general in life, that's my
point of view. You did give us a few other quotes that have been guiding
your philosophy and I just want to share maybe to joseph Conrad's quote my
theory is that literature is essential to society in the way that dreams
are essential to our lives. Yeah. Well, the reason I like that quote is
because to me it's true. Um when I'm going to I'm going crazy because of
something in my life, I sit down and I can reshape it where I can control
it just in literature and fiction we call it, but that's what I do
sometimes, you know, we all do. And also it takes me into a world I lived
on an island that's exactly the size of Tempe 13 by seven and if I didn't
read I wouldn't know there was a whole world out there that's to be
explored, that's to be enjoyed, that, you know, is adventurous, that it's
different, that it's full of sparks of all kinds And so that's why I like
that. Just one more quote from Somerset mom to construct a habit of
reading is to construct for yourself a refuge from almost all miseries of
life. Kind of what you just said. But because it's my mom wanted it's like
drinking, you know, you go in the room and um and you drink because you
want to live the world Get away from the world. Mom's own room. His
writing room had no windows because he said I am in there, not to look out
but to look in and so that was what he did. You know? Yeah, well thank you.
Gus I know that. Um I mean what strikes me so much about your career at A.
S. U. I mean following it all the way through and your your time before
that in new york and your time now you're an inspiration largely because
you follow your passion one of the chairs. So you know, you encouraged
that. You supported all the things I did and you were really an
inspiration to it because I think that our students need to know it's okay
to follow your passion, but it's not about making money or other things
like that. Yeah. And that's the whole thing that we tried to tell you fail
, you get up, you dust yourself off and try again. Friends stare another
court.
So I do have a philosophical question I'd like to ask you. Um less
philosophical than practical actually. So if you if if a student were to
come to you and say they want a life in theater or film, what advice would
you give them theater or film or tv or all three. Okay. I would say first
of all embrace whichever one you want, all of them together because actors
and directors and writers make the cross over back and forth. Uh The only
thing I would say is I just, I I used to say this in class, I said pick a
profession that um you would do for free because it means you really love
it, you're not in it because it's gonna make you famous and you're not in
it because um you're gonna make a lot of money. Travis is doing that, he's
making these movies. Last time I spoke to him I was looking at a budget
and said you've got to put a bigger amount for yourself as a director
because he lives just for film. And that to me is the happiest thing is
when you do work that you love, I used to really enjoy going to the class
, I'm in new york and I'm looking at a DVD store and say, oh, the class
would love this, the class would love this, and now I have to tell myself
when I see things you don't teach anymore. So, you know, like this, that
to me is the happiest thing you can do because you have to live with
whatever it is you do your job eight hours a day and if you have no
enthusiasm for it, if you're not up and having a lot of fun with it, then
it's like pushing a rock up a hill and I know a lot of people who live
that kind of life, you got friends that I went to school with and they
would boast of how much money I'm making and how much time off they have
and I'm thinking, well, you know, obviously you're not enjoying what you
do. And my father was a machinist and on the weekends because he works at
those times. He works six days a week and he was always filthy with oil,
etcetera. And the weekend on sunday he'd be on the car with some friends
and my mother would yell at him and she said, that's the only time you
have to be clean. But not until I became an adult, I realized this was his
passion. You know, it didn't have to be the arts. Yeah. In the last years
of his life, he came to visit with me in new york and when I would go to
work, the superintendent would tell me because they both spoke spanish. He
would, they would say, you know, your father followed me all through to
see how we heat the building, how we dispose of the garbage except because
that was his passion. You know, And so I always just encourage people
philosophically and practically to follow whatever it is your passion is.
And the way I think you've identified it is if you do it for free. Yeah.
And I said, you know, somebody will pay you for it. I told them in
classes. I don't tell, you know Crow, but I would teach this class for
free because I was talking that stuff and my friends, we've got bored with
me now people pay me, it's really amazing to have a good time. I'm like,
wow. Yeah, don't tell Crow, because it's not going to teach them for free.
Yeah. In a world that's so much about money, that is so wonderful to hear.
And I think it's an inspiration for all of us to to really listen and pay
attention to what we love. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, as I said, it's it's
something I love film. So you see, you've been to the house. Yes.
And students even asked me now and I said, well, now that I'm retired, I
create my own film festival at home because I pulled stuff out and showed
them to myself, you know, my wife is asleep, but I'm watching it and I'm
like, well, so I could talk to Travis and somebody about it. Well, once
again, it's really an inspiration to talk to you. Um really inspires us to
follow our passion. Gus thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much for um
this interview and um we look forward to more writing and more inspiration.
I'm gonna try. That's all I can promise is that I will try. Thank you.
Thankyou